Need advice!! [Archive] - Chronicle Forums

Cherry

Aug. 30, 2004, 04:37 PM

We've had a few cases over the years on this board of these types of horses--usually the problem is a medical one. The trick is finding someone who can diagnose the horse properly (as to whether it is a medical or behavioral issue). Sometimes it's not diagnosed while the horse is still living, the problem only shows itself during a necropsy.

Tying your horse to another horse doesn't sound like something I would want to do. First of all, it's not fair to the horse your horse will be tied to. So maybe your horse does learn to tolerate that horse at the moment (because he doesn't have a choice)--it doesn't mean he will tolerate just any ole horse at any given time. It just doesn't sound as if it will really "teach" him anything. You can try it if you want to, but don't expect too much!

You might try calling in a homeopathic vet. It would involve "dosing" the horse for a period of times with one or more homeopathic remedies--it won't hurt the horse.

Or, you could try dosing the horse yourself with Bach's Rescue Remedy, a five-flower homeopathic remedy. You can dose the horse by putting a little of the remedy in some spring water and giving orally via a syringe. If he is in at night or during the day you can also put a dose in his water bucket. But if it's a medical issue that will not resolve the problem.... But the Rescue Remedy could relax him enough that he would stop wanting to kill everyone around him for the time being!

Have you spoken to your vet about your horse? Have you taken him to a veterinary teaching hospital for a work-up? I would heartily suggest doing that first, before you do anything else! Have you spoken to his previous owners? Perhaps they can shed some light on his odd behavior. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Sorry I could not be more helpful.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

FridayzFortune

Aug. 30, 2004, 05:13 PM

No, it's not a medical problem. I've talked to my trainer, and I know how he acts and there's no way it is caused from pain. We know what the problem is, I accidently forgot to say it before, we just don't know what to do to help it. The thing is he doesn't have any turnout at his barn, and there is no way we can move barns b/c of location, moving isn't an option. We think it's because he has to be like the lead and in charge all the time, and he would be the leader in the pack if he was turned out but since he isn't the only time he gets to see the other horses a lot to show them that he's 'the boss' is when I'm riding. He shows them he's in charge by acting this way. Besides getting turnout I just don't know what would help. As to his behavior, he has always been very teritorial. If you go in his stall and try to hug him he gets mad, but walk him outside his stall and hug him he won't care at all. Before I had him, when he did have pasture, he would get mad when you came up to him in the field and they couldn't catch him. So I also think part of the problem is that his 'personal bubble' is being 'popped' by all the other horses.

pegasus209

Aug. 31, 2004, 04:36 AM

just a quick readover but, why not give this horse his space while he's in his stall? he's agitated and agressive because of the no turnout situation I would expect. He needs to be able to blow off some steam and just be a horse, maybe a toned down feeding program is on order to.
No, do NOT tie the horses together unless you just love paying vet bills and want to be repairing the emotional fallout damage for 2 years. Bad Idea!
Can you let him run in an arena or lunge him for awhile everyday, so he can blow off some steam?
Since he was still aggressive when on pasture,
I suspect you have a dominant horse. That's his personality. Natural Horsemanship methods can help you to become your horses best friend, and establish respect-- it's going to take some work.

beachorse

Aug. 31, 2004, 05:05 AM

I agree with pegasus209. You seem to have an alpha horse with no outlet. As pegasus suggested, get your horse out and exercised daily. Read up on the natural horsemanship methods. Your horse may become less agressive if you can become the alpha. It will take lots of time and work, but the end results will be worth it. Good Luck!!

FridayzFortune

Aug. 31, 2004, 02:40 PM

Well, since we don't have pasture at my barn I, at least a few times a week, put him in a ring and let him just do whatever he wants and run around for a little while. He is normally jumped well 2-3 times a week and hacked most of the other days, but he always gets at least one day off. I try not to go in his stall too much because he gets so agitated. It was never my idea to tie him to another horse but I don't see what's so wrong with it. We're going to tie him to a horse who doesn't care if he's kicked or not, and eventually Friday will realize kicking won't solve the problem.

apcohrs

Aug. 31, 2004, 02:45 PM

I cant imagine how you could tie two horse together in a way that they could not injure each other.

I think this is an extremely dangerous and foolish 'solution'.

J Swan

Aug. 31, 2004, 02:58 PM

May I say that tying a known territorial alpha horse and known kicker to a helpless animal in order to "cure" him of the behavior is not only stupid, but cruel.
And if I saw it, I would not hesitate to call the police and see to it you and your trainer were charged with animal cruelty.

These are the sorts of "training" methods that ruin perfectly good horses, send other to the slaughterhouse, and people to the hospital.

I think you need to reevaluate.

blueboo

Aug. 31, 2004, 03:12 PM

This sounds suspiciously like a seriously skewed version of the "tie the wild horse" (or weaniling) to a very mellow donkey/mule to calm them and teach them to lead - ususally done at the absolute far end of a range or very large pasture with the mule/donkey trained to come to the barn for grain. Used to be done - but I haven't heard of it for ages - and it WASN'T done with 'mean' horses - just unbroken ones.

Starsnstripes

Aug. 31, 2004, 03:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> It was never my idea to tie him to another horse but I don't see what's so wrong with it. We're going to tie him to a horse who doesn't care if he's kicked or not, and eventually Friday will realize kicking won't solve the problem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry in advance but I'm going to be brutal here: Where IS there a horse who doesn't care if he's kicked or not! Are you nuts?
Would you volunteer for such a job? Why would you knowingly put an innocent animal in harms way? You may think it's an OK idea but if your horse or the other one becomes permanently or even mortally injured there's no going back.
Please reconsider and don't do it!

OK, now that I've got that off my chest there's a couple of questions I have. First, is it possible that your horse was "proud cut"? Meaning he still has a testicle inside or some testicular tissue? Have you had his testosterone levels checked? Second, does he behave the same way to both mares and geldings? And how is he when you ride him? Obedient or flighty? Does he pay attention to you or is he easily distracted? Have you tried any of the calming agents on the market? There are several and while I haven't had any personal experience with them you might post a seperate topic asking for feedback from others who have used such products.
I don't have any ready answers to your dilemna. Maybe (and please folks, don't come down on me for suggesting this) he needs another home where he can be turned out in a field. If his behavior is really so aggressive it doesn't sound like he's a happy horse at all. Perhaps letting him go to a place that has the facilities to manage him outdoors would be a better solution. Just please don't put some kind equine soul in danger - that makes no sense to me at all!

cyberbay

Aug. 31, 2004, 03:47 PM

Just an idea: any chance that this horse is actually not an alpha, but a middle-of-the-pack-or-lower guy who never got a chance to learn his spot in the social order?

And, in fact, is just poorly socialized and his aggressiveness is more fear and no understanding of how he is supposed to interact (nicely) with other horses?

Just an idea, having seen 'ballsy' horses being that way more from social ignorance than the need to dominate...

FridayzFortune

Aug. 31, 2004, 03:51 PM

Ok J Swan, I said it earlier but I guess you didn't see, they're going to be tied in a way that it's physically impossible for them to kick! I don't think it's cruel. He kicks horses when I ride and I don't see anybody saying it's abuse! He tries to kick people, including me, and I don't think it's abuse. It's no different. No, he's not proud cut. He doesn't need calming supplements, he's a VERY mellow and calm horse. I think he's spooked maybe twice the whole time I've had him. He pays attention but is just stubborn sometimes, but he's a good listener and a great learner. Also, I don't know why but the faster Friday and the other horse is going the more likely he is to kick. If he is standing still next to a horse chances are he won't kick, but if he's cantering next to a horse than he will def. kick, so him standing next to another horse wouldn't set him off, once again not abuse. Moving to another barn is not an option at all. Because of this every once in a while I send him somewhere with pasture for a little while, but moving permantly is not an option at all. My barn is very conviently located and my mom is ill and wouldn't be able to take me anywhere further.

Tannenwald Trakehner

Aug. 31, 2004, 04:32 PM

I think JSwan is not the only one who does not see. Can you explain for everyone, as though we were five-year-olds, HOW you tie two horses together so that they can't kick each other? You said your horse doesn't kick when standing still, so is there some means you are going to use to ensure that the pair of horses don't move? I, like others I believe, find it hard to get past this idea to even consider the options for working with this horse. Because I cannot fathom why or how one would tie two horses together for this purpose without creating an untolerably dangerous situation for one or both.

FridayzFortune

Aug. 31, 2004, 05:16 PM

It's the same as when you walk behind a horse. You walk RIGHT next to their but, so they can't kick you, instead of walking a little bit behind. They are going to be close to each other so they cant spin around and kick. This wasn't my idea in the first place anyway thankyou very much! It's my tainer's, and we are just throwing ideas around. If you think it's soooo horrible then tell me, what would you do?

Tannenwald Trakehner

Aug. 31, 2004, 05:31 PM

Still trying to picture this--are their heads tied together? How do you keep them from turning to face each other and striking?

Regardless of whose idea it is (and the fact that it is a "trainer's" does not necessarily make it a good idea), you must have the logistics worked out, so if you could just explain how this will be done so as not to be dangerous?

LMH

Aug. 31, 2004, 05:36 PM

I am sorry but the absurdity of this advice is beyond comprehension.

If you choose to go forward with this, you will have to live with the consequences.

You have been given very good advice to look into methods advocated by John Lyons and Parelli-these methods are old as the hills and successful.

J Swan

Aug. 31, 2004, 05:51 PM

I see what you are saying. Unfortunately, they will still be able to inflict damage upon one another. The sight of a severely injured animal is heartbreaking - more so if you are the one responsible. It is cruel. Shame on your trainer.

Let's agree that this is not an appropriate training method and move on.

There are many reasons that your horse can be acting this way. Fear, pain, lack of socialization at a young age, he could have retained enough testicular matter to act like a stallion, he could have decided he is boss and is trying to frighten you or others. If he has retained testicular tissue you would never know unless he was tested. You trainer cannot determine this.

That's why I said reevaluate.

A horse that doesn't respect you - for whatever reason - is dangerous - I don't care how cute he is. You may want to start there and assert that YOU are in charge.

If he kicks out when horses come up behind him - he may feel threatened. In such cases turn his head a little so he can see what's coming up behind him. Turn his haunches away from the oncoming horse.

If he attempts to kick he should be disciplined quickly and dispassionately. Carry a crop and smack him on the shoulder.

If he lifts a leg against you - he must feel the wrath of God coming down upon him. No screaming - no attempt to frighten him - but you must discipline him.

All of this should be done under the supervision of a qualified trainer experienced in retraining problem horses. Yes, your horse is a problem horse no matter how much you love him.

You may wish to consult your vet or other qualified professional to determine there are no physical problems. Horses may act out if they have vision or other problems which are very hard for the owner to detect.

It is an unfortunate truth that animals (including humans) that are not socialized properly when young often have terrible problems as they get older. In such cases it is important to seek competent help. This behavior tends to escalate.

Sometimes we need to sit back and really think deeply and objectively about what we are doing in our handling, treatment and riding of our horses. There is no quick fix and we have to be able to identify with what the horse is perceiving. This is difficult and comes only with many years of experience, if at all.

One of the more painful truths is that we create many of the problems in our horses.

Chew on that for a while - and get back to us.

mrs.smith

Aug. 31, 2004, 06:39 PM

Yikes and yikes. You've been given a lot of advice which I guess you don't want to take. The innocent horse being tied to your bully has my pity. I hope you be considerate enough to pay its vet bills.

HungarianHippo

Aug. 31, 2004, 07:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FridayzFortune:
This wasn't my idea in the first place anyway thankyou very much! It's my tainer's, and we are just throwing ideas around. If you think it's soooo horrible then tell me, what would you do? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one is blaming you for this idea. Your trainer suggested it, but we're trying to tell you that even trainers have really weird ideas sometimes, and they're not always right. And people ARE offering you alternatives, but you keep shooting them down (it seems) without giving these other ideas any consideration.

It almost doesn't matter what happens if/when you tie your kicking horse up to some poor equine punching bag (just curious, who in the WORLD would allow their horse to be used in that manner? If it's the trainer's horse I suppose s/he gets what she deserves, though her horse surely doesn't deserve that.) Pretend you are tied, against your will, to a furious, agressive prisoner. Even though that prisoner is in handcuffs, and you are *reasonably* confident (but not positive) that he can't get out of the handcuffs-- wouldn't that be kinda scary for you? Wouldn't being tied to a big guy who was thrashing around, trying his damnedest to hurt you, be pretty awful? Don't you think that other horse would be suffering, whether or not he actually gets kicked?

Anyway, even if you do this misguided thing-- it is probably not going to solve your problems with Friday. The core problem is that he does not view you as his leader and is not obeying you. A different trainer, and/or the Natural Horsemanship programs may help you fix this.

Please, won't you at least try something else before proceeding with this plan that could get your horse and the other horse injured?

mm2791

Aug. 31, 2004, 07:39 PM

I have to say how disappointed I am to hear some of the feedback regarding this matter. You see, I am the one that suggested that this young lady seek advice through this forum. I myself have learned so much valuable insight in to various matters in the horse world through COTH. I ran into this young lady in tears a few days ago at my barn after hearing that it might be necessary to try some unorthodox procedures in which to help her horse overcome this problem. She was so upset, it hurt me to see her like that. She is an exceptional rider with a promising future and a huge heart. She would never think of doing ANYTHING that would endanger her horse. Her trainer, vet and others have tried everything they can think of and have run out of options. If you knew her, her horse, trainer and vet you would see that all they want is to help the horse live a full life. I am sorry that I sent her to this forum now that I have seen the harsh criticism she has received for mentioning a method that was discussed briefly in passing as an alternative. Remember that some people come to this site because they have nowhere else to turn and are looking for some help from others that have such a deep love of horses.

mm2791

Aug. 31, 2004, 07:46 PM

Also, remember this is a fourteen or fifteen year old child that looks to her trainer for guidance. Remember how you felt about your trainer when you were that age. This trainer is not suggesting that this is the one and only thing left to do nor is this young lady agreeing. Please just try and be more sensitive. I can assure you this child loves her horse more than anything and would never do anything to intentionally hurt him.

HungarianHippo

Aug. 31, 2004, 08:07 PM

No one blames the original poster for the idea--most have gone out of their way to recognize that it's the trainer's idea. Her own horse getting hurt is not the only consideration. Many are more upset about the other horse who will be tied up to a known kicker. The poster has most definately portrayed this unorthodox, mentioned-in-passing idea as a done deal, so that is good news if it's not really the case. I'm honestly curious what kind of response is being requested or is acceptable here (aside from "yes, that sounds like A GREAT IDEA"). Lots of alternatives have been offered, all of them immediately shot down. And if she idolizes this trainer, isn't is all the more important that she hear different adult perspectives?

Lookout

Aug. 31, 2004, 08:55 PM

This situation is black and white. The horse needs turnout. Tieing him to another horse won't replace his need for turnout.

Starsnstripes

Aug. 31, 2004, 10:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Flymetothemoon: She would never think of doing ANYTHING that would endanger her horse.

Remember that some people come to this site because they have nowhere else to turn and are looking for some help from others that have such a deep love of horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is exactly why we're saying - don't do it! Because we love horses and we don't want to see anything bad happen to either one!

She came looking for advice and I think some good suggestions have been made. Please encourage your young lady to consider them.

EBO

Aug. 31, 2004, 10:48 PM

This has to be a joke, right? Nobody has a trainer that stupid. Nobody is stupid enough to hire someone who wants to tie two horses together to "teach" one not to kick.

kansasgal

Sep. 1, 2004, 03:01 AM

Hi! Just wanted to say that sometimes it helps to remember that your horse's behavior makes perfect sense to HIM....

It could be a physical or emotional issue. This is your opportunity to learn more about the nature of horses in general. IMO you need to think about how to HELP him with his issues. Do some research in Natural Horsemanship techniques. I also suggest looking into Tteam.... ( Linda Tellington-Jones Equine Awareness Method). Find someone who has experience using these methods and have them come out and work with you and your horse...

IMHO the basic nature of most horses is generous, not grumpy. This could be a wonderful learning experience for both of you.

Good luck and best wishes

FridayzFortune

Sep. 1, 2004, 03:22 AM

I can't send my horse to turnout unless I sell him and that is NOT an option. I know that's the only real way to make this better but it's just not an option. It's not a medical issue, the vet has looked at him many times. Lei, thankyou sooo much. Your the only one who seems to understand my position. I guess they don't understand what it's like. To have to ride a horse who kicks and see him kick my friend's horses. Having to apologize to BIG trainers at shows because there horse was kicked. Having to ride in a red ribbon every time I ride. Having to beat my horse everytime he kicks. And anyway, my trainer's horse is like the definition of a herd horse. He HAS to be by other horses. J Swan, I always carry a crop and whenever he tries to kick I always gets hit, I'm not going to hug him saying GOOD BOY as it seems like you think I would. All I want is happy horse. You can't even begin to understand how hard it is for me to have to ride him when I can't get near everyone. You think I like screaming at people, HEADS UP HE KICKS!? Try to go back to when you were 14 and imagine how I feel.

HungarianHippo

Sep. 1, 2004, 04:35 AM

Selling him or somehow getting him more turnout IS an option, it's just not one that you are willing to consider. Not that I value your feelings over your horse's well being, but I DO know how you feel. At your exact age I gave up my beloved 1st horse to a new home that was more suited to him and his health condition. He was my best friend and I thought it would kill me, the pain of that decision was so awful. But I knew it was best for HIM so I did it. I cried for a long time but after time it got easier because I knew I had done the right thing for the horse.

Best of luck with whatever you do with this horse.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 1, 2004, 05:36 AM

I've already done that once and I'm not willing to do it again. I had to sell my first horse because she needed turn out and I only had for a 1 1/2 years. Selling him has never crossed my mind, and won't until I go to college. He's not unhappy and depressed, he's just cranky. Yes, he would be happier at a barn with turnout, but he's always been cranky, even when he did have turnout. All I'm looking for here is a way to make him less cranky when I ride him, WITHOUT selling him.

J Swan

Sep. 1, 2004, 05:41 AM

Actually, I do know how you feel. Don't think you are alone. If you go to the Hunting forum you'll see that I'm constantly asking advice on what to do with my horse - who is going through some tough times.

You have received good advice from experienced horsemen. The only thing people have expressed concern about is one option that you defended. We disagree. All of us do.

What you are going through is frustrating and dangerous. We, as a whole, suggest you seek help from people who know more about equine psychology than we do. That is a sound, reasoned, intelligent statement and does not reflect upon you personally.

"They" understand your position perfectly. You don't want to sell your horse. You can't move your horse. He has behavior problems that a vet has determined are not caused by physical problems. You are seeking advice on methods to cure him of undesirable behavior. Your methods are not working.

You are given sound advice and you shoot it down. Perhaps if you gave specific examples folks could give you specific instructions. Otherwise, I'm not quite sure what you want.

And if doesn't matter that you are 14 or 40. All of us, at some point, have had to deal with problems in our horses. We've all shed tears.

pegasus209

Sep. 1, 2004, 06:16 AM

I think I can safely say that 'we' were all shocked by the idea of having a horse brutalized for an obscure and unclear training method.
Even if the 2 horses were tied together and somehow somehowwork it out without injury, what is this gelding going to learn from that? That, 'when I'm tied to another horse, it's frustrating, but I'll save my kicks for people' ?
Your horse is frustrated and angry and is trying to communicate that to you the only way he can.
Since you feel'turnout is not an option', 'moving is not an option', & 'selling him is not an option', the only other thing I can suggest for the sanity of your horse is to arrange a partial lease with someone who has decent pasture and rudimentary natural horsemanship skills.
Perhaps someone can take him for you that way and maybe you can find a bus route or pay someone gas money or something to get you there. Your horse is depending on you for his needs, you must find a way. That's what owning a horse is about.
I can't come back to this thread--Good luck.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 1, 2004, 02:33 PM

J Swan, I'm not trying to shoot down your ideas, I'm sorry it seems like that. Pegasus, he's not unhappy and depressed like you make it sound. He's always been cranky, even before I had him when he did have pasture. It just seems worse now, but he's just cranky not unhappy, if he was really unhappy I wouldn't keep him at my barn. He's a very playful, mellow, happy horse, just with some attitude. And no, I was hoping he'd learn, when I try to kick it doesn't do any good and that is NOT the right solution.

J Swan

Sep. 1, 2004, 03:45 PM

There is no reason to apologize - you are frustrated and unhappy and your horse probably is too. You're quite the pair!

It's just such a very difficult problem to work out. I'm very cynical by nature, and I don't care for these Johnny come lately's and their high falutin' "natural" horsemanship.

However - what the acknowledged masters have to offer on such problems is gold. Pure gold.

Faced with a similar problem, I misunderstood and therefore mistreated a horse. I made judgments about her behavior that in retrospect - were ignorant, anthropomorphic, and downright stupid. For other reasons this horse went back to her previous owner.

But what she was telling me was clear - if I'd only paid attention. I'm scared. I'm hurting. I don't understand. I'm not what you think I am. Why didn't I understand her?

I'd like to spare you that anguish.

The Pat Parelli types can help you translate what Friday is saying to you. If you can't get ahold of someone like that to visit you and your horse - look for a clinic. Or buy a book or video tape. This stuff is wisdom.

I think folks on this board would trip over themselves referring you to such a person. Do you think this is something you'd like to explore?

FridayzFortune

Sep. 1, 2004, 03:52 PM

I've never really been a person to be into that kind of stuff, but hey if you think it will help I'm all about it.

J Swan

Sep. 1, 2004, 04:10 PM

I'm a cynic too. And don't get me started on crystals, pet pychics, and native american mysticism. I don't think that has a place in this discussion.

Ok - for everyone on the board - you have two skeptics who want to know how to help Friday overcome whatever problem he is having, using NH.

We know that selling or moving the horse is not an option.
We know he has kicking problems under saddle and at liberty, with the owner and other horses.
We know that the owner has made attempts to discipline him.
We know that illness/injury does not seem to be an issue.
We know the trainer is not able to cure the problem.

So - for the NH folks - dig deep and post back with some thoughts on the NH way of helping this horse.

FridayzFortune - you may get more responses if you change the heading of your original post - something like "Update" or something.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 1, 2004, 05:09 PM

Alright. Thanks J Swan! Oh and I forgot to ask earlier, with people he kicks when he is touched, but not because it's painful for him to be touched in a certain spot, he just doesn't like being touched. Is there anything to do to get him over that? I think that just might be more of his personality unfortunatly. Like if you hug his neck, touch his stomach, kiss his butt(alright I shouldn't have tried it but it was funny to see him get cranky b/c he's really a sweet horse deep down) he gets mad. When I ride with a saddle and have to move one of my legs back to get him to move over from leg pressure he gets mad as it goes back, when I ride bareback he gets mad when I get on and when I'm trotting bareback I have to sit hard on his back, if I post my butt and legs move on his body and he gets mad. Does anybody know of any horses who do this or am I just blessed?(sarcasm)

Starsnstripes

Sep. 1, 2004, 08:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> He's a very playful, mellow, happy horse, just with some attitude. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm really trying hard to understand this but I admit that I just don't get it. How can this horse be "very playful, mellow and happy" when he doesn't like to be touched, kissed, approached (by human or horse) and apparently doesn't much like to be ridden? And I have to ask, doesn't this horse sound dangerous? Where are FridayzFortune's parents in all this? It sounds like she has a deep love of horses and I would think there has to be another more appropriate mount for a 14-15 year old who obviously wants to ride. Whew! Like I said, I just don't get it.

I am happy that such a horse has someone who is willing to put up with his grumpiness. But he does sound like he could be a threat to her physical well-being. Shouldn't this be the first concern?

I have a friend who bred her Morgan mare to a lovely Morgan stallion. A filly was born and she had all the care, attention and instruction a young horse needs. But somehow something in her was wired wrong. As she grew into a young adult horse she would actually run up to my friend, spin and kick. It got so bad she had to carry a whip with her any time she was near the filly. I fed for her one time (knowing full well what this horse was capable of). I fed her her grain in her stall and put hay out for her in piles in the paddock. I turned her out and she went to a pile of hay that was about 40 feet from the back of the barn. I stood in the doorway just looking at her - standing perfectly still, nothing in my hands, no threatening gestures - and this mare suddenly pricked her ears and started to walk toward me like she was coming to say hello. I stood there waiting to see what would happen. When she was about 15 feet from me she charged! Ears pinned, teeth barred! My friend tried everything she could think of, including Regumate to help control her hormonal cycles, and nothing worked. She ended up selling her - amazing that she even found a buyer, but she did.

Somehow I think there's more to this story than we know. What, exactly, that might be I can't begin to imagine. I just have to say that I don't think this horse sounds appropriate for a young girl. I know how hard it is to part with horses we love, I've done it myself. But I sure wouldn't hang on to a horse with the issues this one has. Or, it I absolutely couldn't bear to part with him, I would find a pasture somewhere where the board fee was nominal (like maybe fifty bucks a month) and turn him out au natural - let him be him! - and I would find another more agreeable horse that would welcome me in his stall, love my rubs and kisses, enjoy being ridden in company and, in general, be a more willing partner. Perhaps that would be a "best of both worlds" solution.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 2, 2004, 03:36 AM

Oh god no my horse isn't that bad. He does like being approached by people! He'll walk up to you and lick your hand! And he doesn't not like being approached by horses, just when he's being ridden. When I turn him out (let him loose in a ring) with a friend he LOVES it and he always grooms his best friend, Telly, when he's out with him. He just doesn't like being kissed in his stall, because of what I said earlier-he is very territorial and the stall is HIS (or so he thinks). Take him out of his stall and he'll kiss you right back. He's not dangerous at all, unless you're a little child(5-6) wanting to go hug and cute pony and not knowing what to do when he gets mad. He trusts and loves me more than anyone at my barn and although sometimes he threatens me he would never kick me. If Friday was in your situation instead of that filly, he would gallop to his feed (he's OBSESSED with food, he eats everything) and then go up to you and start licking you. NEVER would he charge for no good reason. He's not life-threatening at all and my parents know that.

Starsnstripes

Sep. 2, 2004, 11:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Oh and I forgot to ask earlier, with people he kicks when he is touched, but not because it's painful for him to be touched in a certain spot, he just doesn't like being touched. Is there anything to do to get him over that? I think that just might be more of his personality unfortunatly. Like if you hug his neck, touch his stomach, kiss his butt(alright I shouldn't have tried it but it was funny to see him get cranky b/c he's really a sweet horse deep down) he gets mad. When I ride with a saddle and have to move one of my legs back to get him to move over from leg pressure he gets mad as it goes back, when I ride bareback he gets mad when I get on and when I'm trotting bareback I have to sit hard on his back, if I post my butt and legs move on his body and he gets mad. Does anybody know of any horses who do this or am I just blessed?(sarcasm) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, I have to say, I don't get it. One minute you say that he'll kick people just because he's touched and the next minute you say he does like being approached by people. Then you say he's not dangerous at all unless you're a 5-6 year old wanting to go hug a cute pony and not knowing what to do when he gets mad! Friday, what if he were to kick some small child in the head? What then? Isn't that a liability issue? And what if he kicked a horse at a show and broke its leg? Another liability issue?

Sweetie, I understand that you love him and I think perhaps you think you're the only one who understands him and can help him. But have you thought about the possibility that his behavior might not ever change? How old is he anyway? And what was he doing before you got him? Did you know about his "issues" before you bought him? You did say that you wouldn't sell him until you go to college. I'm guessing that means you're willing to part with him someday. Why not now? Is it not possible to find another horse that you can have fun with during your last years before college? As you've probably heard other adults say - life is short! If it would make him happier to be out and if you could be happy with a horse that you can comfortably ride in company then why not do it now?
Please understand, I'm on Friday's (and your) side in this. I just want EVERYONE to be happy!

apcohrs

Sep. 2, 2004, 12:56 PM

Hmmmm. Just a thought. Kicking out when touched CAN be a sign of ulcers. Which CAN result in a cranky horse.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 2, 2004, 02:09 PM

He doesn't like being touched in his STALL. Never did I say he didn't like being approached. He'll come up to you and be nice in his stall, just not if you hug him or something, until he's out of his stall then he won't care. No I am not willing to part with him EVER but I have to be reasonable and chances are I am going to HAVE to when I go to college. I doubt I could be able to have enough time to take care of him when I go to college. No little kids go into his stall,and if there is one around I make sure they don't to anything to upset him. He's fine outside of his stall, he won't care then, he acctually prefers little kids when he's OUTSIDE of his stall. And inside his stall you can pet his head and he wont try to kick, you just can't be all over him. You said what if he kicks at show? WELL THERE WE GO!!! Why do u think I came to this forum in the first place?!?! Looking for an answer because I was worried of that! He has kicked horses at shows and I am very aware that this is a huge problem, so we take precautions. Friday ALWAYS wears a red ribbon in his tail at shows-if they get to close and I have a red ribbon in his tail there is NO excuse. In order to fix his kicking we put him on Depo but it didn't work (hey, we were desperate) and now we are considering tying him up. Well we just went in a big circle now did we? You know what, I shouldn't have come here. It's impossible for you to understand. You don't know me, you don't know my horse, you don't know my vet, you don't know my trainer, and your attempts aren't very good. If you would listen to me instead of arguing it might make better sense, but until then just stick to your rules and what you think has to be right. My horse isn't like many horses and I shouldn't have excpected anyone to understand that, except for Lei of course because she knows Friday.

J Swan

Sep. 2, 2004, 03:17 PM

You know, I'll bet you 10$ that if you showed these posts, including yours, to your parents, that they might not be very happy with you - especially your attitude. In my home, your posts would be considered disrespectful and rude.

You have been given advice and some great ideas by experienced horsemen who are concerned about you - an absolute stranger. Even I attempted to bring us all together on the natural horsemanship ideas.

I really feel sorry for you. And I really feel sorry for your horse. Because it's obvious that you are more concerned about arguing than taking the suggestions and discussing them with your parents and trainer.

I don't know why you decided to post here - were you seeking help or absolution?

When you decide - we'll be here to help. No hard feelings.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 2, 2004, 04:57 PM

You're sorry for my horse? This is why I'm upset. Everyone is yelling at me and making it seem like I'm abusing my horse. I was seeking help and all I got was a bunch of people telling me that's it's horrible the way I keep my horse, and they would call the police on me if I tried to help my horse to overcome his attitude problems. Ask anyone at my barn and they would probablly agree Friday is happy and has a good home and caring owner that he loves. I am not trying to argue at all, but I am insulted as to some of the replies I have gotten. You're not taking the time to really listen to what I'm saying about my situation. I don't know, I guess it's just hard to explain. If I was in your shoes I would probablly feel the same way all of you do, but from my point of view it's the replies that are unreasonable.

"I really feel sorry for you. And I really feel sorry for your horse. Because it's obvious that you are more concerned about arguing than taking the suggestions and discussing them with your parents and trainer."

I really feel sorry for you. You spend your free time trying to parent a teenager who don't know and knows a lot more than you are giving her credit for. No hard feelings.

BumbleBee

Sep. 2, 2004, 05:49 PM

Okay I have a few sugestions.

1) Larch made by Bach's same comepany as Rescue Remedy. It is for stuborness, and inflexibility. I used it on two horses who liked to beat up my mare.(had owners permission) it works and surprisingly the dose for humans works for horses so it wont break the bank also you can stop using it after a while.

Second regarding the touch issues. I was going to say sack him out but this situation sounds like clicker work would be better.

Basically once your horse learns to associate the click with the treat you can teach him ANYTHING is great with the clicker. You must teach him click = treat reliably and be sure to get good at clicking quickly so he is still doing the behavior when you click.

When he lets you touch him without showing agression(even for a breif instant) click and treat. As soon as he hears the click he knows his behavior is one that is desirable and gets him yummy treats. Slowly and graduall you increase the time and places you touch before clicking to build his patients, tolerance ect.

You do not need to click and treat every time you touch him just frequently enough that he is aware he MAY get a reward for being good about being touched.

His nastyness with the other horses may just be because he doesn't want them to come to close or touch him. Hey horses can be nurotic too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Once he is good about people touching him you can start bringing horses closer to him and when he tolerates it click and treat. Gradually you can move closer till your horse will except another horse touching him.

That would be my plan. Clickers are invaluble. My cats learned to LOVE having their teeth brushed because of the clicker. Every horse I have tried it with has figured the clicker out very quickly. You can also increase your bond with your horse with trick training. My mare plays soccer, fetch, rings a bell for treats instead of pawing like she used to....

cornbread

Sep. 2, 2004, 09:42 PM

FridayzFortune wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I've already done that once and I'm not willing to do it again. I had to sell my first horse because she needed turn out and I only had for a 1 1/2 years. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So let me get this straight: You bought one horse and had to give it up because of lack of turnout.

Then you bought a second horse and now here you are again, with problems possibly caused by lack of turnout.

Hey, good luck. You're going to need it.

xegeba

Sep. 2, 2004, 10:31 PM

Friday... so if I have a kid that hates green peas and the MIL tells me that the kid should eat green peas, no matter what, I should force-feed the kid green peas? How bout I have a kid that has the "mother of all melt downs" when I drop him off for day care? But ya know, I need to go ride my horse and the kid just needs to figure out how to deal.

J Swan

Sep. 3, 2004, 03:30 AM

Bumblebee has given you some great ideas - you and your trainer could think about those -

And no - I'm not trying to parent you. I have absolutely no maternal leanings. I was just thinking about how my parents would have slapped me silly if I talked back to an adult.

Go over all the posts, maybe print out or copy the ones with suggestions, and go over them with your trainer and parents.

And I'd like to know if your vet did really rule out ulcers. It's done with an endoscope. The reason I ask is that all of these problems could be caused by ulcers. I'd be great if that could be ruled out 100%

Anne

Sep. 3, 2004, 04:28 AM

A course of GastroGaurd (omeprazole) could not hurt this horse, and may be very beneficial.

Timex

Sep. 3, 2004, 05:23 AM

kiddo, everyone here is trying to HELP you, so that you and your horse are happier. Without resorting to something as potentially dangerous, to both horses, as tying friday to another horse. and no one is saying that that bright idea was yours, we recognize that it was your trainer's suggestion. but let's face it, it's not a very good idea. not only could the other horse get kicked and injured, but so could friday. no matter how close you stand to a horse when it kicks, a kick can still injure you. do you want friday to get hurt? do you want your parents to have to pay the other horse's vet bills? if the vet has ruled out any and all possibilities, including ulcers, vision problems, etc, then it turns into a behavioral issue that needs to be addressed by someone who works with horses with issues. because this is definitely an issue. your trainer has obviously exhausted his/her arsenal for cures to such problems, so it's time you look elsewhere. clicker training, that sort of thing, could definitely help friday. it might be worth a shot finding someone in your area to show you how to do it. and i understand that you love your horse, i love mine to death. but there very well might come a point where friday has kicked one too many times, and has seriously hurt a horse, or, god forbid, a person. what happens then? basically, what i am trying to tell if, if you're listening to anything anyone is trying to tell you, something has to be done to solve this problem before someone gets hurt. you've been offered a lot of good advise here, and no one was trying to attack you personally, but rather, were questioning the rationality of your trainer's suggestion. so why not give some of the suggestions here a try? you can't exactly do anything to make him worse, you have nowhere to go but up!

and, as an aside, your posts were rather hard to understand, they seemed very contradictory at times. so you can hardly blame people for getting confused.

imissvixen

Sep. 3, 2004, 05:30 AM

My horse who is not aggressive kicked my barn owner's horse in the leg a couple of months ago, broke its leg and the horse had to be put down. I still feel awful about it and as I said my horse is not a known kicker.

Many good horsepeople will tell you that horses don't need to be turned out with others and that in fact it is a very bad idea for just the experience I have had. Also, there is good research that shows that a horse with a big enough stall moves around just as much in the stall as in the pasture. Maybe you can just round pen him every day to get his ya yas out.

I wouldn't tie him to another horse. Maybe you should tie him to your trainer for giving you such ridiculous advice.

asterix

Sep. 3, 2004, 05:43 AM

This is OT, and I apologize (though I have nothing to offer the OP except to urge her to think about some of the suggestions offered here)...
but, imissvixen, can you point me in the direction of research saying that a horse can "move around" as much in a stall as in a pasture?
I have a horse who is now field boarded in a large pasture with a mixed herd. I do know it's possible for accidents such as the one involving your horse to happen, but I firmly believe that under GOOD conditions (big enough field, proper herd mixing) turnout in groups is the BEST way to socialize and keep a horse healthy [Note: I am NOT saying this is a solution for THIS horse -- quite the contrary -- he'd probably be unhappy and dangerous in group turn out until it's resolved. I mean all other things being equal]
I cannot imagine how my horse could duplicate the movement of his herd around his 70 acre pasture in a stall. They walk, they trot, they occasionally canter. They groom each other, sleep and watch guard.
I have been amazed to see how much happier he is living this way, and I am abashed that it took me 1 1/2 years of owning him to move him to a facility where he can have this life.

baileygreyhorse

Sep. 3, 2004, 05:45 AM

Has a VET actually seen this horse? Has a VET done a THOROUGH examination to rule out pain? Don't say "trainer" in response to this question. Trainers are not vets; vets are not trainers.
Also, it is OBVIOUS that this horse is unhappy about his living conditions. Why on earth do people try to keep horses in situatios without turnout? Horses were meant to roam large areas, not stalls. They are social animals that need to move. You are forcing him into an unnatural lifestyle and he is grumpy. Do you blame him? If there is no other alternative available (which I also cannot understand), be kind to the horse and remove from this situation.
I still can't believe that someone suggested tying horses together. On what planet would this be a good idea??? That's pure insanity.

blueboo

Sep. 3, 2004, 08:32 AM

The being territorial in his stall is a RESPECT thing - as in he doesn't respect you as being his alpha.
I personally haven't used the NH, but my sister had a very alpha (read beat the crap out of anything she was turned out with), grumpy (would not stand to be brushed - heck, would not stand period), seriously prone to flipping her wig over anything or nothing at all, off the track QH mare, and my Sister started working (seriously from step 1) the Parelli method with her. This mare can now be turned out with anyone, will stand for hours, pick up her feet for you, doesn't mind being touched anywhere any time, and is a completely different horse. She (my sister)also rescued another little Arab gelding (abused) that you literally COULD NOT TOUCH (our vet said this was the only horse he'd ever had to go out the feed door to get away from), and after about 2 months of concentrated Parelli work, he is unflappable, loads, picks up his feet, and you can touch him anywhere anytime. I really would recommend you at least start with a good (and the key word here is GOOD) NH practitioner. He/She won't come cheap, but the alternative is to wait until the horse hurts someone, hurts another horse or hurts himself.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 3, 2004, 11:27 AM

Ok, here are responses to all your questions in the the order they were asked: BumbleBee, that sounds like a great idea and I will look into it! The only thing is that he's obsessed with food. I mean OBSESSED-if he knows you have a treat he knocks you over and gets all mad at you until you give it to him. Then, once he's given the treat he is mad that there isn't anything left and he might get mad after I click it and he doesn't get a treat, or already ate it, and then he'd be too mad for me to do anything with him. But I will definatly try it though! cornbread: I sold my first horse because she was 18 and really needed to be able to walk around during the day because she was getting too sore standing in her stall. Timex, putting down my trainer isn't going to solve anything, and it wasn't her idea. We were at a show and she was asking another trainer what she would do to help Friday and that's the answer she got. Quote : "but there very well might come a point where friday has kicked one too many times, and has seriously hurt a horse, or, god forbid, a person. what happens then? basically, what i am trying to tell if, if you're listening to anything anyone is trying to tell you, something has to be done to solve this problem before someone gets hurt." You're just restating what I said. That is exactly the reason I came here looking for help, I am very aware of what could happen and how it could be bad. Quote : "and, as an aside, your posts were rather hard to understand, they seemed very contradictory at times. so you can hardly blame people for getting confused." That is why I said I did NOT blame you. But it was contradictory at all, I would say something and everyone would assume something else. Asterix, my horse isn't mean when he's in turn out. He LIKES being out with other horses, and I turn him out (in a ring) with other horses all the time. Moving barns isn't an option though. My mom is really sick and can sometimes barely even drive me to my barn, which is five minutes away from my house. Besides my barn, the nearest one is probablly about 30 min. away and that wouldn't work. Bailey- yes the VET has looked him at and he is FINE. It isn't medical at all. Maybe I should have said this earlier as it seems many people are not aware. Friday is a quater horse. That is why he's like this. Most quarter horses are very territorial. There are three others at my barn like Friday, but not as bad. Blueboo- your sisters horse was a quarter horse-exactly.
Thankyou all for the help.

baileygreyhorse

Sep. 3, 2004, 01:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Maybe I should have said this earlier as it seems many people are not aware. Friday is a quater horse. That is why he's like this. Most quarter horses are very territorial. There are three others at my barn like Friday, but not as bad. Blueboo- your sisters horse was a quarter horse-exactly.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hold on just a minute!!! That has to be the most misguided thing you have said to date. Just because this is a QH has not one thing to do with his behavior. All three of my horses are QH's and they would never think to behave like that. Why not? Because they have been trained to behave like gentlemen. Do you need an example? Today was bath/sheath cleaning day. All three stood without being tied while I did this. They know who is the Alpha Mare (me) and they know if they cross me there will be serious trouble.
Resorting to breed bashing because you don't want to/ are unable to/ refuse to/ change his behavior is just a cop out. If you can't deal with a QH, sell him to someone who can.

katarine

Sep. 3, 2004, 01:35 PM

Young lady, you are coming up with some wacky ideas. QHs are territorial? What????

Turn him out as often as possible in the arena.

Hand graze him often.

Have him thoroughly evaluated by a good vet.

Consider chiropractic work for him.

A 'real cowboy' or NH approach is going to be making the wrong thing difficult, and the right thing easy. It's that simple. Think on that.

Cindeye

Sep. 3, 2004, 01:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FridayzFortune:
We're going to tie him to a horse who doesn't care if he's kicked or not, and eventually Friday will realize kicking won't solve the problem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A horse who doesn't care if he's kicked? Would that be a dead horse?

Seriously, this is absolutely the worst idea I've ever heard.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>You know what, I shouldn't have come here. It's impossible for you to understand. You don't know me, you don't know my horse, you don't know my vet, you don't know my trainer, and your attempts aren't very good. If you would listen to me instead of arguing it might make better sense, but until then just stick to your rules and what you think has to be right. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's right. You came to this board looking for advice and opinions from total strangers. If you would listen to their advice instead of arguing, it might make better sense. I agree with all other posters who have advised you to discuss this with your parents and your trainer. It's time to sell your horse or find a trainer who is qualified to work with horses who have behaviorial issues!

*looks around for mpeylin, horse_poor and crazypony14. pulls up the papasan couch and gets out the popcorn*

It's time to stand by and watch another Friday afternoon trainwreck!

baileygreyhorse

Sep. 3, 2004, 02:12 PM

Cindeye- Is it too early for beer? Eventers like beer for our trainwreck watching festivities. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Cindeye

Sep. 3, 2004, 02:13 PM

Bailey...it's never too early on a Friday! I was thinking of going for one of those apple martinis from last week's trainwreck thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

imissvixen

Sep. 3, 2004, 02:14 PM

Asterix, I will find you the article. I was surprised when I read it too. But then I watch my big warmblood and when he is out he kind of moseys around here and there and when he is in he paces. Obviously not conclusive. I will get the article.

Friday, it took three days in the hot North Carolina weather for someone to come and pick up this horse that mine kicked. He was put down at the gate to the pasture right behind the barn owner's house and the stable. It was horrible. Everyone turned on my horse and I had to get him out of there even though I know there was no ill-intent on his part. Don't let anyone tie your horse up to another horse and if he is a kicker, don't put him out with other horses. Who will be liable for the cost of the other horse if he hurts it? Think about how much everyone will hate your horse. Or think about what the other horse may do to yours!

I know you love your horse. Maybe you can look at what you are feeding him to bring him down a bit. And there is the T-Touch stuff to desensitize horses. But again I must say that turning out with other horses is not a necessity.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 3, 2004, 03:19 PM

FridayzFortune

There is no possible way to tie a horse to another horse, so it can't do major damage.

Your example of walking closely behind a horse is to minimize damage, not to eliminate it. Example: if close, you only get a broken leg, instead of a kick in the head and death.

Your horse clearly has dominance issues. You need to solve them to make him not dangerous. Your horse MUST believe that humans are dominant. Look to a herd of horses to know how to speak their language. If you need to make sure your horse accepts humans as his "alfa", then you have to do to the horse what a true "ALFA" horse would do to him if he even so much as thought about flicking an ear back when the Alfa was near. You need a professional to do this. If this horse as it sounds has been allowed to be the Alfa, then a real battle may need to be fought to "win" his respect.

BumbleBee

Sep. 3, 2004, 04:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FridayzFortune:
The only thing is that he's obsessed with food. I mean OBSESSED-if he knows you have a treat he knocks you over and gets all mad at you until you give it to him. Then, once he's given the treat he is mad that there isn't anything left and he might get mad after I click it and he doesn't get a treat, or already ate it, and then he'd be too mad for me to do anything with him. But I will definatly try it though! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If he is obcessed with food that just makes it easier. To be safer and to teach him mugging you wont get treats start with him in his stall and you in the isle. (I only mean while you are teaching him what the clicker means)

If you are very consistent he will learn he can't mug you and get rewarded.

hitchinmygetalong

Sep. 3, 2004, 04:24 PM

Okay, I'll jump into the mosh pit here.

This owner and horse are a total mismatch.

Owner, who willingly admits turnout is impossible, needs a horse that is a saint and will stand quietly in a stall 22 hours a day. And be a puppy dog the other two hours.

Horse needs to be out in a mixed herd. If he pisses off the alpha mare he will pay the price. If he shows aggession towards a human, he needs a human that is willing to be the alpha mare.

Good luck. I have a feeling no one is listening here, though.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 3, 2004, 07:10 PM

Hitchinmygetalong, you are completely wrong. I know how to handle my horse very well thankyou. I do not let him get away with acting the way he does. I don't need a horse that is a saint I know a LOT more about horses than you are giving me credit for. Vixen, we have had a horse kick another horse while being turned out. The horse who was kicked was an inch away from death. Nobody got mad. Nobody had to leave the barn. I board at a barn where people like me and my horse and I can turn to them for help instead of having to run away. I am sorry you have to board at such a horrible place. And as I have said over and over and over. My horse is good when he's turned out with other horses.
Cindeye, I don't need to sell my horse. I have had him for two years now and he's always done this and we're doing just fine thankyou very much! If you had a child who grew up to be the school bully would you adopt him because you were scared he would punch a classmate? Oh and I have a great trainer who isn't perfect, nobody is, but she's a very good trainer and knows what's shes doing. She has an off-the-track TB who's scared of his own shadow and most people can't even hand walk and she has taught him not to be scared of most of the things he is. Katarine and bailey, quarter horses are proven to be more dominant and territorial, but this does not mean ALL quarter horses. Oh and bailey, I am not "breed bashing", I LOVE quarter horses. If I didn't then how come the only two horses I have ever had were both quarter horses? Bailey, my horse stands still when I tell him to. I can deal with him better than you could thankyou very much. If I couldn't than how come I've had him for two years and out of everyone he knows he respects me and loves me the most?
This whole thing is kind of funny to me. I just want my horse to stop kicking when I ride him. And I get these posts saying I need to sell him and I need a new trainer. Nobody is perfect, and that goes for horses. So when you get one that's not perfect you just get rid of it?? Well maybe you do but I have a bigger heart than that.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 3, 2004, 07:11 PM

oops, sorry I meant would you put him up for adoption

BumbleBee

Sep. 3, 2004, 07:33 PM

If he only kicks when being ridden then tying him to another horse would do nothing unless of course someone was riding him while he was tied to the other horse. Either way it seams like a very, very bad idea.

Starsnstripes

Sep. 3, 2004, 11:11 PM

Friday, I must admit that I'm coming to this thread out of curiosity now. I don't think anyone could offer you more good advice than you have already gotten. But I am interested in trying to understand you and your horse. Would you endulge me by answering a few questions.

How old is he?
What was he doing before you got him?
What do you do with him? Hunters? Jumpers? Hack?
How many previous owners has he had?
Do you know any of them?
Could you contact them to find out how they handled Fridayz' issues?
Does Friday have any siblings and what are they like?

You keep saying he has been thoroughly checked by a vet but could you be more specific? Has he been scoped for ulcers? Has he had blood work done? Had his testosterone level checked? And, if so, what were the results of these tests?

Lastly, was he ever used as a stud?

There may be clues in these answers. Information that may spark someone's knowledge or experience that could be of help. I don't know but it seems like we're at the grasping at straws point.

Please understand, Friday, that when you ask horse folk for advice you're going to get it! EVERYONE who has responded to you LOVES horses and EVERYONE would like nothing more than to help. As someone suggested it would be a good thing to go back through all the posts and try to decifer what might be useful to you and your horse. Discuss it with someone you trust who has horse sense and then decide what you think you might reasonably be able to try. Then do it! Be patient, be persistent. Try a NH method for two months and then evaluate your progress - or lack of it. Set small goals and see what happens. Keep a daily journal. Remember, you gain nothing if you don't at least try.

I (WE) wish you and Friday all the good luck in the world.

OneonOne

Sep. 4, 2004, 02:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FridayzFortune:
Cindeye, I don't need to sell my horse. I have had him for two years now and he's always done this and we're doing just fine thankyou very much! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If you are doing just fine together, then why did you come here for advice? Obviously something isn't fine and dandy. We're giving you suggestions to fix it, but apparently you don't need our help. Why ask then?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Katarine and bailey, quarter horses are proven to be more dominant and territorial, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'd like to see the study that "proved" this.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>This whole thing is kind of funny to me. I just want my horse to stop kicking when I ride him. And I get these posts saying I need to sell him and I need a new trainer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your horse is likely trying to tell you that he's unhappy with his living situation. You asked for help here. The people here are suggesting ways to make him happy. Don't get mad at us when the suggestions aren't what you want to hear.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>So when you get one that's not perfect you just get rid of it?? Well maybe you do but I have a bigger heart than that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, sometimes we do get rid of it. If the horse is unhappy, a person who truly has a big heart will do whatever is necessary to make that horse happy. Sometimes that means finding the horse a new, better home. There is nothing heartless about that. That may not be the case here, but if you really love this horse you will take a good hard look at his living situation and his attitude toward it. It's hard to take your emotions out of it, because it's obvious that you love this horse. But think of him. You want him to be happy, right? I'm guessing so. It really sounds like he would be happier somewhere where he can live outside, not inside a cramped stall all day long. If you can't provide that kind of environment, then yes, maybe it's time to consider another situation for him.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 4, 2004, 06:33 AM

Darley- He's seven years old, he was doing hunter before I got him and is still doing hunters with me. He had three owners. The first one had him just until he was old enough to be sold, then the next owner had him until I bought him and I have had him for two years. I don't know if he has any siblings, and no he was never used as a stud. The thing with the vet is that we know it's not a medical issue. The vet has looked at him many times and has agreed it's his attitude and who he is. He has ALWAYS been this way, I talked to his old owners and they said that's it's not something new. OneonOne, we are doing just fine but there is room for improvement, and I was wondering if there were any ways to help him but it's not a life or death situation. He has ALWAYS been crabby, and if I do sell him I don't think that I would be able to find someone at the level he needs that knows how to handle him. I send him on 'vacation' as often as possible, so it's not like he's always in his stall. And he does get out everyday. We have paddocks at our barn, but it's nothing like what it should be or anything. They are probablly like the size of 5 stalls, just so the horses can be out everyday. BumbleBee, he would have a saddle on so he would figure it out.

Tannenwald Trakehner

Sep. 4, 2004, 07:20 AM

Often horses, like kids, become "bullies" out of insecurity. They are unsure of their status in the social order and act out trying to assert themselves and make themselves bigger than they are (or bigger than they think they are).

I had an alpha mare who was very much a bully-type, but the problems really kicked up when there were changes to the herd and she felt her social position was in jeopardy. She was untrusting with people, having been abused before also, and would constantly test to establish her position with the "human herd." I really think it came down to her needing to test and needing to be "put into her place," as it were, so that she could feel confident enough to let the person BE her herd boss--in other words, she needed the person to be strong enough that she would feel safe with them in charge.

Then I had a mare who was just the sweetest thing with people but she was strange with horses. She could be turned out in a herd and would pretty well do her own thing. But when horses would come toward her she would run away from them, but would kick back at them while she was running. Naturally, because she ran, they would chase her. The kicking was defensive, and I wonder if your horse's kicking at other horses when being ridden is defensive, or is it aggressive? Does he like to be in front of the pack when out riding with other horses? Does he go out of his way to kick other horses or does it only happen when he gets crowded? I am suspecting that it is a defensive tactic as opposed to true aggression.

Thinking about these horse personalities, it seems to me that you really need to consider how you address your horse. You say he is sweet and you can hug him and so forth, but then you expressed concern about the click-and-treat system because he might get mad, and apparently is very pushy about getting treats from you. This really indicates that your horse is not comfortable with you as his herd boss. The alpha horse does not just boss the under-horses around; alphas are responsible for protecting the herd, contantly guarding and watching for predators and other dangerous situations, warning the herd of impending danger, and physically protecting the herd in certain circumstances.

I think if he can become comfortable with the ideas of 1) respecting you so that he does not have the issues he has with you (kicking, mugging, etc), and 2) you looking out for him, truly being his alpha in all respects, you should not have these problems anymore. Even when you ride him, he should feel safe enough with you as the "leader" that he doesn't need to defend himself from other horses, or his place in the herd.

For you to get help figuring out how to achieve all of this, you should consult with a good NH practitioner. You probably need to work as much on yourself and understanding the methods, and grasping the reasoning behind the methods, as you need to work with the horse.

That deals with training aspects. The physical aspects are also important. It sounds like you have not had the horse scoped. This is a specific question, and saying "the vet has looked at him many times" does not answer it. Looking is not a substitute for this diagnostic procedure. A vet may not think to do it if you don't ask for it directly. Some of his behaviors sound a lot like a horse with ulcers. A client of ours has a horse who has a history of some of these behaviors and just general grumpyness and only after investigating every other possibility (and spending tons of money) did they think to check his gut, found he had ulcers, put him on Gastroguard, and had REMARKABLE improvement in his attitude. And horses who are stalled are documented to have higher incidences of ulcers. I really urge you to check this out--talk to the vet about doing the procedure, OR start the horse on Gastroguard (which is not cheap, but will show you some results within a few weeks if it is going to work). It may be more cost-effective to just get the meds than to do a scope and THEN get the meds.

I am still troubled by your continued defense of the idea of tying him to another horse. In so many words, first you said "this is what we are going to do," then you said "it was just an idea the trainer had," then "it was an idea another trainer gave her," in all of these later posts acting like you weren't really going to do it but it was "just an idea." Now the last post has you defending this ridiculous thing again, saying he would make the connection between standing next to the horse and being ridden and running next to a horse because he was wearing a saddle. That is nuts. You need to put this idea out of your head and quit justifying it to yourself, and quit trying to justify it to anyone else. No one has criticized the idea because they want to pick on you. People are concerned about the welfare of both horses and of you. And I daresay people are ticked that a "trainer," which would indicate someone holding themselves out as a professional, would have the lack of common sense to be considering this and putting the idea to you. It is a stupid, dangerous, and irresponsible thing to try.

BumbleBee

Sep. 4, 2004, 07:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tannenwald Trakehner:
Often horses, like kids, become "bullies" out of insecurity. They are unsure of their status in the social order and act out trying to assert themselves and make themselves bigger than they are (or bigger than they think they are).

I had an alpha mare who was very much a bully-type, but the problems really kicked up when there were changes to the herd and she felt her social position was in jeopardy. She was untrusting with people, having been abused before also, and would constantly test to establish her position with the "human herd." I really think it came down to her needing to test and needing to be "put into her place," as it were, so that she could feel confident enough to let the person BE her herd boss--in other words, she needed the person to be strong enough that she would feel safe with them in charge.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well put. LOL I couldn't figure out how to type that without sounding like I was advocating abuse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 4, 2004, 08:33 AM

FridayzFortune - 2 questions:

Has the horse been scoped? yes/no

Has his blood been checked for testosterone? yes/no

Tannenwald Trakehner

Sep. 4, 2004, 09:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by BumbleBee:
without sounding like I was advocating abuse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gosh, I hope this didn't sound like THAT! I certainly don't advocate anything abusive. But "abusive" means different things to different people.

Gaining this mare's trust involved

1) her knowing that we were bringing her the food that she ate--bringing her food bucket and taking out her hay--so she learned that seeing us was a good thing and also a very regular occurence;

2) handling her regularly and consistently, ever practicing and building on our understanding of what things she did were out of fear or confusion on her part and what things were testing behavior or otherwise disrespectful;

3) using natural horsemanship principles in dealing with her, also relevant to #2, making an effort to see our own actions as she does, as well as understanding what she was communicating in "horsespeak;"

4) striving to never reprimand an action done out of fear or confusion, while striving to ALWAYS reprimand acts of disrespect.

This horse was an NH poster-child--when she got into a roundpen, her behavior was exactly like what you would see on a John Lyons tape. She was very instinct-driven, a stereoptypical horse.

Her big issues were bullying behavior such as trying to push you with her body, or trying to snatch the rope from us to run away. The possible responses to pushing is either to push back, or to drive her away (in a confined area or on the end of a rope). The WRONG response is to let the pushing go without correction, and the worst is to step away and let her take that ground. But obviously, driving the horse out of your space or giving it a shove is hardly what you would think of as "abusive." But these are actions that make sense to horses.

After the more obvious acting-out was past, working with NH people showed me how to recognize what I would call a "baby push." For example when she stands next to me and just takes one step sideways with a foot closer to me. That is a purposeful step into my space and if I don't know enough to recognize it and respond appropriately, with a word, by pushing her back into her space, or driving her away, then she will chalk it up as a point won by her. Later I noticed that when I was in the stall with her she would move very carefully, very conscious of where she put her feet so that she was deferring to my space.

I used to think that when a horse was insistent on being close to you, for example when something disturbing was going on, that it was like a child wanting you to hug it and hold it, seeking your protection. I have been taught that is not really, or at least not always, the case. The natural alpha gets her choice of feeding area, spot on the water hole, and resting spots out in the herd. When the horse triess to "get into your lap," it is often a case of trying to grab the actual spot where you are standing. Naturally the place where you are standing and not appearing to be threatened would seem like the better bit of ground to be occupying, the safe spot, and the dominant horse would ordinarily get to pick that spot! Took me a while to start to feel like that might really be the case when I first heard it, but it does make some sense.

The farrier has a trick for horses that do the subtle "I'll just look away while I stick my foot out sideways and step on YOUR foot." Recognizing the deliberateness of that, he then picks up his foot and rubs the bottom of his boot on the horse's foot, just above the hoof. That is about a close to "abusive" as I can see NH stuff getting, but the horses don't try that trick on him more than once or twice. As with all the other NH kind of stuff, timing is critical. The reprimand has to be of a type that makes sense, be "reasonable" in light of the transgression, and be delivered immediately so that the horse can connect its action with the reaction. The timing is one of the tougher things for some people to get down.

hitchinmygetalong

Sep. 4, 2004, 09:54 AM

"Hitchinmygetalong, you are completely wrong."

Oh dear. So sorry. A recap of the issues (pay attention all of you):

Some quotes from past postings:
Whenever a horse gets near him, or even not close to him, he gets very mad and normal tries to kick and

sometime succeeds.

We tried putting him on Depo (mare hormone supplement) but, him being a gelding, it had no effect.

We know what the problem is, I accidently forgot to say it before, we just don't know what to do to help it. The thing is he doesn't have any turnout at his barn, and there is no way we can move barns b/c of location, moving isn't an option.

He tries to kick people, including me, and I don't think it's abuse.

he's a VERY mellow and calm horse.

All I want is happy horse.

He's always been cranky...

He's a very playful, mellow, happy horse...

...with people he kicks when he is touched

It's impossible for you to understand.

[No kidding!]

we're doing just fine thankyou very much!

[Happy to hear that, guess you don't need any advice after all.]

...if I do sell him I don't think that I would be able to find someone at the level he needs that knows how to handle him...

[Well, we're apparently all a bunch of know-nothings. I'm sure if you, a 14-year-old, can't cure him, no one can.]

As someone said a few pages ago, good luck with that. You're going to need it.

Illyria

Sep. 4, 2004, 11:28 AM

I have a horse that's quite aggressive/dominant too...and I've learned to compromise (he's 14 now, I was 10 when I got him and really didn't know any better). He's a bully - I recognize it, and I (now - 8 years later) draw a line as to what he can and can't do. He does get turned out for several hours a day and he'd probably be a lot worse if he weren't.

Leading - he's always been good about...he follows anyone who's attached to the other end pretty much anywhere.

Grooming - there are certain areas I tend to avoid unless it's absolutely necessary (his belly area and hind legs, though he's very good for the farrier and having his feet picked out).

Tacking up - he's awful (very girthy): tries to bite, stomp on your feet, kicks out at the wall, moves around/tries to get away. So he gets x-tied and I carry a whip, and if those feet or teeth come too close, he gets flicked. It's probably not the best way to go around it, but I didn't know what else to do (hadn't heard of NH yet)...and now if he sees you holding a whip, he'll stand, though if you're a new person, he will test you to see if you'll actually stand up to him.

Under saddle - he doesn't kick (as in he's so far never done it), but he threatens to (pins his ears, tenses up) if horses are too close to him, especially if he can't see them; so when I ride him, I make sure there's we pass other horses with a lot of room (same at horse shows) and generally keep him focused on me enough that he's not paying so much attention to the other horses.

In his stall - he's fine, but paws and kicks his walls (though not any more now that he's been moved into a concrete-walled barn - he had kicking chains on before which helped) for food...so he never gets hand fed. All treats go in his bucket or on the ground. And in this barn, there are only very few horses, not like the long rows of horses that have to be fed from one end of the barn to the other, so he doesn't paw anymore becuase he thinks he's getting fed first (he isn't) or maybe he thinks there's less horses to steal his food.

Why do I put up with it? He's not super athletic or going to win hack classes, but he'll jump anything you put in front of him and has taught me a lot (including what it feels like to have bruised, if not broken, toes and how to keep from getting them smushed again), and I figure, at this stage of his life, he's earned it to be ornery and obnoxious as long as it doesn't get dangerous and out of control.

My other horses are not quite so ill-mannered, so it seems I've learned a little from my mistakes (or I've got horses who aren't so dominant). Something that has helped greatly is NH or "common sense" training (or as a cowboy once told me, "results through respect". Respect from both sides: the horse has to respect you as it's leader, and you have to respect the horse as a horse, not a four-legged person). It really does help if you understand where the horse is coming from. It's not always that they're unhappy or grumpy or dislike you or mad at you for something you did yesterday...it's them being horses and us having to understand them and how to deal with it on their terms.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 4, 2004, 01:51 PM

Tannenwald, I think Friday is kind of like your mare, only that I think he kicks out of agression. He doesn't have to be in a crowd to kick. If there is one horse who isn't even really close he gets mad and pins his ears and swishes his tail and tries to kick. But it could be defensive. I'm not sure. Hitchinmygetalong, I never said you guys knew nothing and that I knew everything! I said I don't think I could find someone at the LEVEL he needs that knows what to do. When I say that I mean I think the only people who could handle him would need a horse who was more athletic than him, that most people who only show 2'6 might not be able to handle his crankiness. I do 3' with him but he's not very athletic. Illyria-finally someone who understands me!!!! Your horse, give or take a few details, sounds like mine. Great about leading, doesn't like his belly being brushed, HORRIBLE about being tacked up (I carry a crop to and everytime he tries to bite or kick out he gets hit). He used to try to bite me but now he just bites a lead rope, but he paws and pins his ears when I put his saddle on. Finally, finally.

Illyria

Sep. 4, 2004, 02:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FridayzFortune:
Illyria-finally someone who understands me!!!! Your horse, give or take a few details, sounds like mine. Great about leading, doesn't like his belly being brushed, HORRIBLE about being tacked up (I carry a crop to and everytime he tries to bite or kick out he gets hit). He used to try to bite me but now he just bites a lead rope, but he paws and pins his ears when I put his saddle on. Finally, finally. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, it's not behavior that I encourage or like or find cute, but we get along...it's not something I try to fix anymore, I kinda just let him be as long as it doesn't escalate. But I keep in mind that he tends to be more aggravating than usual to tack up if he's sore somewhere, even if he's not limping.

I would get your horse checked for ulcers though, if you haven't done so already (this particular horse of mine didn't have any that we could see, but he seems to feel better when he's on ulcer medication).

About the crop - IME, hitting them a bunch of times, especially if your timing's off, isn't going to do anything except piss them off more...once or twice, well-timed, and with enough resolve behind it (not beating/losing your temper, but not fly swatting either; and making yourself the bigger horse) usually does the trick.

Also, my horse isn't grumpy to tack up (unless he's hurting somewhere), odd as that may sound. He does try to bite and stomp on your feet, but he'll do it with his ears forward and a pleasant expression on his face - no pawing or crabbiness or tail swishing or grimaces or teeth grinding (same thing when you put a blanket on him)...so unless he tells me otherwise, I'm assuming he's having fun and/or subtly trying to assert his dominance.

And another thing, I wouldn't ever tie him to another horse...it never even crossed my mind until I read it here. I might have him (or another one of my horses) worked off another horse to establish respect and dominance (this I wouldn't do since I don't know how - it would be the cowboy's job), but I wouldn't tie any two horses together - there are alternative ways (such as those that have already been posted) that'll probably be a lot less tramautic on your horse (and other horses that might be involved).

Lookout

Sep. 4, 2004, 03:10 PM

Now, if only you would understand your horse.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FridayzFortune:
Illyria-finally someone who understands me!!!! finally. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

J Swan

Sep. 4, 2004, 03:22 PM

"Most of the people who show 2'6" might not be able to handle his crankiness".

As if a person who can stay on a horse over a 3 foot jump has any superior knowledge? Come on -that's just plain stupid. STUPID. DO YOU HEAR ME, KID?

You know - I'm really trying to be nice - and I'm really trying to help you - but that comment is the biggest load of doo-doo I've heard in a while. I want to know who or how you found this out.

And I'm kind of fed up with your posts - downplaying his kicking as "crankiness". Sounds like the horse is cranky all the time, kid.

It is obvious you have absolutely no horsemanship. I don't know where you came up with these ideas, or who taught you, and frankly I don't care.

The more you post, the more you reveal your ignorance. Ignorance is not a bad thing. But you resist aquiring knowledge - or even answering a few simple questions. The more you post, the more you reveal about the way you treat this horse, and I find it appalling.

The bottom line is that you want your horse to stop kicking or threatening to kick. Right now. Quick fix. Don't want to examine anything. You don't want to get into his head, learn new or different training methods, or become a better horseman. You don't want to hear that to help him, it might be necessary to stop showing for a while, take it easy with him, be more consistent, or anything like that.

Just make him stop - it's very inconvenient - but on the other hand it's kind of cute when he makes faces, he's very mellow, he's cranky, he kicks, he's not happy, he's happy, etc.

You know what? If I were him I'd be kicking too.

And you HAVE NOT answered the most basic question - HAVE YOU HAD THE HORSE SCOPED FOR ULCERS.

This horse is biting at the lead rope when you tack him, but he used to try and kick you when you tacked him up? DO YOU THINK IT'S FREAKIN' POSSIBLE THAT THE ANIMAL IS IN PAIN? And if you tell me one more time that "the vet has checked him many times" I'm gonna puke.

You've been posting for a few days. How many of these training suggestions have you tried?

So either put some of these suggestions to use and post back on his progress or go away. Because frankly, I think you are jerking us around.

MyShadeOfPink

Sep. 4, 2004, 03:32 PM

Alrighty. Here's my two cents.

First, look at Fairview's post. Your horse could have an imbalance, and although it could get a bit expensive, it may make you AND your horse happier. Get him blood tested. I would suggest starting another thread asking what imbalances could cause agression.

You said the vet checked him out but you never said if he really went IN DEPTH. By in depth I mean more than just a little more than basic physical exam (IE making sure there are no outward signs of pain).

Now. If all that comes inconclusive I would suggest calling in a reputable pet psychic (yes I know I sound nuts, but I have met a few people who it has worked with behavioral issues). I'm sure someone on the board would know someone in your state/area. This also may help

On another note, no one is attacking you by saying you may need another home for your horse. You say that "selling him is NOT an option". If you go through all these steps and find that he's just needs turn out. You wont sell him?

Life includes hard decisions. Including letting someone you love go. If he could be happier somewhere else you wouldn't do that for him?

Now, I am not attacking you here and I don't disagree with the method BUT do you think that he enjoys being hit with a crop whenever he does somthing wrong?

Maybe he's just a horse that DOES NOT enjoy being ridden. Some horses are like that.

I had a horse that was like yours for the first two years I owned her. She was cranky, very unaffectionate, didn't enjoy being ridden or touched. We ended up not showing anymore, moving to another barn and strictly trailriding. She was a completely different horse.

But I can tell you that I was not completely happy when she was in her cranky state.

I wish you luck and I hope that you are not going to tie the two horses together. It is a bad idea. If there was some way they could be tied together without kicking, what about cow kicking? Biting? Tripping each other?

Lord Helpus

Sep. 4, 2004, 04:04 PM

I am coming to this thread late [and I am glad I am].

What has happened to the Natural Horsemanship idea that was suggested by several posters and emphasized by J Swan? Where did that fall by the wayside?

I might be the last person that others would expect to push a Parelli/John Lyons type of approach, but I have seen it work with a horse I had. He had never learned who was the alpha being. He had never learned what behavior was acceptable. He was unsocialized to the point of being one step away from hurting someone.

And the only solution I had was chain shanks or hitting him to try to establish that I deserved his "respect". HA! Trying to "talk" to him using my language just made him more angry and unsocialized.

In 5 days, the John Lyons disciple had that horse totally turned around. He respected people, he was docile. He would walk 3' away from me and stay even with my shoulder, without barging ahead or hanging back. When I stopped, he stopped. I could go into his stall and he respected my space.

It was truly a magic transformation, and if I had not seen every minute of every session, I would not have believed it.

So, the Original Poster can, and should, find out if her horse has ulcers, has a high testosterone level, or any other hormonal imbalance. Any medical problem needs to be addressed. But the behavioral problem will still be there because it is now learned behavior -- so it will have to be dealt with.

If the Original Poster does not seek help from someone schooled in a Natural Horsemanship method -- someone who has tried to learn to think like a horse -- then she has not tried to do her best by her horse. She needs to find a way to communicate with this horse on his level. She is not trained to do it. She needs to find someone who is.

This horse is suffering. He needs a shrink, not physical abuse. -- Hitting him has not worked in the past and it will not work in the future. Tieing him to another horse... is, um, a really bad idea.

Find a John Lyons practitioner. Make sure he/she really knows his stuff and he has been doing it for a long time. Then send the horse to him for 2 weeks.

Starsnstripes

Sep. 4, 2004, 05:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Illyria-finally someone who understands me!!!! Finally, finally. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Friday, sounds like this is what you wanted all along - someone who "understands" you. If that's the case then your topic headline should NOT have read: Need Advice!!

Misery loves company. So now you know there are others out there who have had difficult horses to deal with. And if this gives you comfort so be it. BUT it doesn't change the BEHAVIOR which was what you were initially after.

I must say, as someone who's tried to offer help, as someone who's been interested from the beginning, I have to agree with JSwan. This has gone from the sublime to the rediculous! You STILL have NEVER answered the question about whether or not Friday has been scoped or blood tested. I can only assume the answer is NO and you're too embarrassed to admit it! Foolish!

It's obvious to me that you don't care about anybody but yourself! Your friend, the one who suggested you come here for help, said you would never do anything to harm your horse. Maybe that's what she wants to believe but I would beg to differ. Seems what you really care about is what YOU want and not what's in your horse's best interest. Not ONCE have you posted back that you would be willing to find someone who has a solid background in NH to try to help Friday. Not ONCE have you said you would go out and buy a book on behavior problems, clicker training or natural horsemanship. Not ONCE have you said maybe he should be scoped again (assuming he's been scoped before) in case there were new problems. Not ONCE have you said you would give Gastroguard a try in case pain was the culprit. Not ONCE have you said much in the way of thanks to the people who have shown you and Friday real concern. All you've ever reacted to was what you have perceived to be negative criticism of you, your horse or your method of handling him!
I have just two words of advice left: GROW UP!!!

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 4, 2004, 05:39 PM

The best piece of advice I can give at this point is for Friday, or anyone associated with this kid to print out these pages of advice, and take them to her parents. This is much too dangerous of a problem for a kid to try and solve. It IS a threat to her parents home/posessions as they will be the ones responsible when/if this horse really hurts someone or another horse. Friday's parents will be the ones to lose their home and posessions in a lawsuit.

To the person that claimed to be a friend, PLEASE really help Friday by getting this information into her parents hands.

Bea

Sep. 4, 2004, 07:44 PM

Guys, maybe I'm missing something here. But -- with all the really good appropriate constructive advice given here -- no one is addressing money and time. With a really sick mother, maybe there's not a lot of spare money. And as mentioned, her mother is often too sick to drive her to the barn. And yes, maybe show expenses - though I can't imagine they amount to much -- should be cut and put towards a good vet or trainer. But I'm sure at that age, when your mum's really sick, and you're stressed and scared about that and it's already being difficult getting to the barn five minutes away. And people start throwing options at you that one reduce your enjoyment (showing) and two, might involve a big change like getting a new trainer, and three, might cost a lot of money. But you don't know if they do, because no one mentions how much ulcer scoping, treatment is etc. Or how much it is to learn clicker training or Parelli or suggest a really good book to read that's available where on-line cheaply. And people tell you you should sell your horse and that you're being abusive towards him, and that your trainer's terrible, and ask you exactly what the vet said (how many teenagers could tell you that, yes I know a few can) and that you're rude and your horse is going to injure someone. Who can blame a young teenager for getting a little upset?

Anyway, just my .02. Notice I haven't had the energy to post on this thread previously, so I do admire the energy expended. I don't have any teenagers and no experience communicating with them, and can only imagine how difficult that communication can be.

LoriO

Sep. 4, 2004, 08:26 PM

Lord Helpus, well said! Exactly what I've been wanting to say but you did it much better then I would have!

Tannenwald Trakehner

Sep. 4, 2004, 09:04 PM

On the Gastroguard, it is somewhat expensive. However, Gastroguard is the horsey brand of omeprazole, which is also the human OTC drug Prilosec. You have to feed quite a few Prilosec to get up to the Gastroguard dosage, but on another thread Friday said her mom was a doc and therefore had easier (and cheaper) access to meds, so that route may be worth a shot.

Unfortunately, everything about horses costs money. And the only way to minimize money expenditures and still accomplish goals is to invest a lot of sweat equity in your own cause. Doing some research and learning some NH stuff is not beyond the capability of a 14 year old. There is tons of information to be found, for free even, on the internet. There are email group lists dedicated to the cause. There are probably people who live nearby who would have some ideas of good practitioners local to her. Videos on ground manners are not that expensive. A motivated horse owner can learn to help herself in many ways. And Friday has given many indications that she is not after having answers fed to her--otherwise, people wouldn't be ranting about her not taking their advice.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 5, 2004, 06:15 AM

J Swan what I said made perfect sense! If I would ever sell my horse I would want him to be a short stirrup 'pony' because I am overprotective of him and would not want him being overworked. Peolpe who show in short stirrup have to be 12 or younger. I am saying MOST, not all, kids who are that young would not know what to do when Friday acted aggressively. I DO NOT APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS AT ALL J SWAN!! I know so much more than most fourteen year old riders do, and I'm sorry you're to insecure to admit this. Do not even start to say I treat my horse bad. I spend every single extra second I have with my horse, and you can ask anyone at my barn, he is VERY much loved. Telling me I treat my horse horribly is probablly the meanest thing you could ever say to a kid, and god forbid you EVER have children, I feel sorry for them already! God there are sooo many things I could say right now that you wouldn't even know a fourteen year old know what they meant. Thankyou myshadeofpink, for trying to help me. I have thought of getting a psychic to look at him, but I have no idea how to get one to come to my barn. Lord Helpus, my horse does join up with me whenever I ask him to. He is not being abused, he is being disciplined when he needs it. If you had a child who hit you would you just say, aww but you can't blame him, he's only 5. No, you would discipline that child. Darley, yes I wanted someone who understands me, who is in, for the most part, the same position I am in and who knows what to do because they have been through it so they can give me advice. I DID say I would try to clicker and look into the NH. And if you look back on my old posts I DID thank everyone for helping, which now I am regretting. Bea, you are absolutly right. My mom thinks all the horse stuff, as she puts it, is all about money. All she cares about is how much money she is losing due to it. Do you know how hard it is for me to ask her for something for my horse when I need it? She always yells at my when I do, and I tell her it's not about the money and she starts yelling at me, I WOULD SAY THAT TOO IF I DIDN'T HAVE TO PAY! Whenever Friday goes to vacation (which he obviously needs a lot) her immediate reaction is, HOW MUCH DOES IT COST? Because of this I am scared to ask for her anything else. Only this forum has made me more than a LITTLE upset. Does everyone here just enjoy being so rude to a stranger that they can't stop for two seconds to try to be in my shoes.
"And people tell you you should sell your horse and that you're being abusive towards him, and that your trainer's terrible, and ask you exactly what the vet said (how many teenagers could tell you that, yes I know a few can) and that you're rude and your horse is going to injure someone. Who can blame a young teenager for getting a little upset?"
I couldn't have put it better myself. That's EXACTLY how I feel.
"But I'm sure at that age, when your mum's really sick, and you're stressed and scared about that and it's already being difficult getting to the barn five minutes away." Once again, EXACTLY how I feel.
I am no longer coming to this thread. I am no longer going to be treated this way. This is RIDICULOUS! So you don't agree with me? Ok, well you don't have to put it so rudely. And to think I wanted your help. Now that I'm all upset I'm going to go to the barn and spend time with my horse, ooo ya sounds like abuse to me!!!

LMH

Sep. 5, 2004, 06:33 AM

Well Friday, since you don't like the advice given...what do you think you should do?

OneonOne

Sep. 5, 2004, 06:34 AM

Friday, I sent you a private topic about an animal communicator.

MyShadeOfPink

Sep. 5, 2004, 06:51 AM

Friday is there any way that you could get a job at the barn to help work off part of your bill or a part time job?

You mum might become a little less hostile toward the idea if she sees you working for it also.

Just a thought

Ghazzu

Sep. 5, 2004, 08:19 AM

Friday--you come here and ask for advice. Much is offered freely, but you stamp your foot and shout a reason for ignoring each piece you are given, while maintaining that the (IMHO) dangerous advice you've gotten elsewhere regarding tying your horse to another is good advice.

No one is trying to be "mean" to you here, but I am beginning to wonder why you ask for advice and then get hostile when you don't get the answers you want.

Your horse has a serious problem.
From my position at a computer monitor, I won't venture to say whether it is physical, mental, or a combination, but it *is* a problem.

No matter what you think, the horse you have described is *not* happy.
If you care about him as much as you want to think you do, you need to take some steps to determine the source and then correct it. Not rail at those who are trying to help.

LoriO

Sep. 5, 2004, 02:54 PM

You know Friday, you come here asking for help and advice. You are given some wonderful suggestions and ideas and because they are not what you want to hear you get upset and yell at us?? Something is wrong with that!!!

People have been asking you very valid questions to try and help figure out what is bothering your boy and for some reason, you keep ignoring them. You keep boasting about how much you know as a 14 year old about horses. Heck, I'm 36 and have been riding all my life...but you know what?? There is still so much I don't know...and I admit it!!! Quit trying to be a show off, know it all and try actually listening to these suggestions and ideas people are giving you.

If you wanted people to pat you on the head and say "poor thing, I'm sorry you are having troubles with your horse" then you should have posted that you are looking for sympathy, not advice.

J Swan

Sep. 5, 2004, 04:26 PM

Here we go again.

Have you had your horse scoped for ulcers?

How many of these training suggestions have you brought up with your trainer?

Which of them will you try?

Have you found any NH clinics?

Have you bought a book?

Have you spoken with your parents about what you are posting on this forum?

Please answer the questions.

And I do not want to hear anything else about you or your problems. You came here (you say) to ask about help with your horse. You got it.

Now what.

ladybug01

Sep. 5, 2004, 06:56 PM

Alright, jumping in now http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif
www.naturalhorsesupply.com (http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com)
free NH
as in free, costs nothing, just read it.
not a quick fix, but nothing in life is easy.

You remind me of my son, also 14 http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
I hear the same things.

LoriO

Sep. 5, 2004, 09:37 PM

Ladybug, neat site, thanks for posting it!

EBO

Sep. 5, 2004, 09:50 PM

I still think our little Friday is a group of 12-year-old boys (who found this site because their sisters or moms visit here) who are having a WONDERFUL time making up all this crap, just to see how long they can keep it going. I can see them all rolling around the floor (a la Tom Hanks in BIG) everytime they think up a new plot twist. Evil Trainer? hahahahahahahah Crying in the Barn? hahahahahah Mother Who Hates Horses? hahahahaha

We need another thread called "Can You Top This?" We can start by having this little blonde girl have to walk (barefoot) in the snow to feed her sick horse.......

J Swan

Sep. 6, 2004, 03:50 AM

EBO - I agree. Got the feeling I'm a lab animal.

I'll tell you - when I was 14, if my parents saw this crap - they would have beaten the hell out of me.

I'm done with this conversation.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 6, 2004, 06:47 PM

EBO I'm so glad you find my life so funny! And just so you know, I never said my trainer was evil, and my mom doesn not hate horses, she used to take lessons on my first horse before she got sick. I'm so glad my life is so comical to you, but it is very rude for you to accuse me of making everything up, when indeed this is my life and everything I have said is true. J Swan, my parents don't really care and I have told my mom and she didn't care. My parents are abusive, like everyone seems to think I am.

Starsnstripes

Sep. 6, 2004, 08:36 PM

I was going to post earlier that I've had the same thoughts that EBO has - that this is all a case of jerking our collective chain.

However...

If it is true then I've come to another conclusion. That Friday is spoiled rotten! Now she's posting (unless she left out an extremely important piece of grammar) that her parents are abusive! So, let me get this new bit of information digested.Abusive parents buy her not only one but two horses, pay the board bills, pay the entry fees at shows, pay for all the miscellaneous expense involved in showing, pay for all the miscellaneous expense involved in HAVING a horse and she doesn't like it when her mom yells at the cost of it all??!!?? And her mom's sick to boot! (With what we will probably never know but it is a recurrent theme in her posts.) Where is this child's gratitude? I never had a horse until I was out of college! I would have been the happiest child on the planet to have had one at a younger age!

And Friday, I did go back to read your previous posts and no, you never did thank EVERYONE for their suggestions and willingness to help. You thanked a couple of people period. Mostly you have just posted rebuttals to almost everyone's suggestions and comments. Go back and take a look for yourself. And it's no wonder people have taken a rather serious objection to you. You haven't been an easy person to, how shall I say this, get along with.

I have been through a few conflicted feelings about this whole topic - shock, dismay, interest in trying to help, empathy for your horse, annoyance with you, frustration - and now I just feel sorry for you. You're a young woman with your whole life ahead of you. I think it would be wise advice to take yourself down a notch or two (pretty ballsy of you to say you know more about horses than most 14 year olds do) and take a look around. You have choices Friday. You can be one of the ones in this world who "get it" or you can be one who doesn't. Right now you, at least in my estimation, fall into the latter group. Which road you decide to take is up to you.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 7, 2004, 03:15 AM

OOPS!!! Wow sorry!! I meant my parents ARE NOT abbusive. Sorry I'm not the best typer.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 7, 2004, 03:28 AM

I NEVER said that I wasn't grateful. I said I don't like asking my mom for things I need because she already pays for everything and it all adds up and asking her to get me something else seems rude to me and I hate having to do it. We bought my second horse with the money from the first horse, but ok. I didn't mean that I know more to brag, but people are doubting my knowledge. There are a LOT of things I don't know, I am NOT saying I know everything because I know that I don't. However, everyone is treating me like I know nothing, and I do know a few things considering I have been around horses since I was 6. My mom has horrible rematoid arthritis (I don't know how to spell that). It's not like the average arthritis were most people get a little sore. She is 5'6 and 100 pounds, her illness makes her lose a lot of weight. Most days it is hard for her to walk, and she gets fevers a lot. This is because she is allergic to every medicine she has tried so she has to pick from being able to walk and being sick, or lying in bed all day but not being sick. She has had I think five surgeries(on her hands and feet, where the arthritis is worse, but she has it in her knees, hips, and jaw too).It's horrible to have to see her like this everyday. I'm really not what everyone here thinks I am. I am not a spoiled brat, I am very appreciative of everything I have. There is no point in me explaining anything anymore, you never understood in the first place. I'm not going to waste my time standing up for myself against strangers who have no significance in my life. Oh and, 3rd page, middle of the page. Last sentence. Thankyou all for your help. What was that, I never thanked anyone? Thankyou all for your help. Sounds like thanking to me.

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:41 AM

Friday, it comes down to simply the following:

Answer the questions J Swan asked you on several pages.

You have said yourself that the problem is that he doesn't get turned out. If he is not happy in that situation then you owe it to him to change that however you can, even if it means breaking YOUR heart and selling him.

If you still believe that you can fix the problem (and obviously what you have tried isn't working - hitting him when he kicks hasn't worked, so why keep doing it?) then it is up to YOU to do whatever you can to find, as has been suggested, a NH-type person. Forget showing, forget that new blanket/saddle/boots/jacket/whatever, and DO something. Go to Border or Barns and Noble where nobody will kick you out if you sit in the middle of the floor for 2 hours reading a book without buying it. Read some John Lyons/Mark Rashid/Buck Brannaman.

Stop making excuses about why things are the way they are, why they cannot be certain ways and MAKE DO with what you do have and your brain. It's not that hard, really.

jumpforjoy

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:26 AM

I am jumping in here in spite of myself.
Here is my humble opinion...I think Fridayz is a a real, honest to goodness, frustrated teenage girl. I have four teens and all of her "talk" sounds very, very familar...so I'm going into the Mom mode.
Fridayz , These horse issues are almost always complicated to diagnose. As a matter of fact, almost every behavior you will encounter by friends, family and work will be complicated, if not impossible to understand . You are just starting to realize this with your horse friend. He is who you love, and he is who you want to understand and fix (and he can't talk!). But as you grow up, you are discovering that there isn't a quick fix, no "right" answer that will take care of the problem. What the people on the board are giving you a process to follow. Take what you can from it and disregard what you must. Try not to dismiss or antagonize their efforts. They are sitting at the computer trying to help you, a young stranger, instead of doing their mountains of laundry,going to work, cleaning the barn, fixing fence, and/or talking to their own children about their problems. They have nothing to gain from their efforts. They are good people . Do consider thanking everyone here once again. Appreciate all their excellent advise whether or not it works for you and your horse; and try all the things they have suggested if you can. If nothing offered works, look for another resource, these wonderful folks have given you all they can and should. I wish one of us could give you the perfect solution... quick, cheap, easy...we all would like to (look at all of the ideas everyone has shared with you!), but we can't, dang it. So you just continue becoming the best horsewoman you can be, and keep trying to find the right answer for you and your horse.
Best of luck to you sweetie, we all hope you and your trainer can solve this problem!!
( Don't worry about sending a reply to this.
You have enough to do with all your school and horse stuff that needs to be done, and I have to pick up my 14 year old from x-country practice!) Again, Good Luck!
--Ms. Mellstrom
(-end of discussion-)

MyShadeOfPink

Sep. 7, 2004, 10:29 AM

It’s a harsh world out there. Can we please stop making it harsher?

could we please stop trying to analyze and diagnose the OP and just drop the whole thing?

Throwing insults at her is something that should stay in her high school, not something that should be continuing on with adults.

Friday good luck and please read the medical advise in this post. You can PT me if you like.

gabz

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:41 PM

I haven't read ALL the pages.

I got to the point where the OP said something about hitting the horse when he kicks at another horse. So - the horse is feeling that when other horses are near him, the rider gets tense and then hits him. Hmmm....

What I have witnessed a trainer do is to work the troubled horse with an easy-going but assertive horse. The trouble horse has to be petted and not jerked on, but reassured when other horses come into it's "zone". It does NOT happen overnight. It will take weeks and months of this kind of work done daily.

You can also work with the horse with a dressage whip... stroking the horse in different places with the whip (which is simply an extension of your arm ... not a beating device). When you are riding, touch the horse's hip with the whip, rub it along his leg, etc. All the time, telling him what a good boy he is so long as he isn't kicking out.

There's a mare like that at the barn I last boarded at. She is a nasty witch in her stall and with her space. At the barn previous, I was asked to remove the horse (not mine) from her stall so that it could be cleaned.
Just last week, one of the owners - he has rodeo bulls on his property, he has raised draft breeds and been around horses his entire 40+ years of life - forgot that he has to yell at this mare - not touch her - to get her to move when the stall is being cleaned.
He's now laid up until December with a smashed leg. He's cleaned this mare's stall nearly everyday for the last 5 years. He forgot 1 time. Now he's paying for it.

In the "old days" (40s and 50s), YOUNG, GREEN horses would be tied to mules to gentle them.

YOu have asked for opinions. YOu have received opinions. If you don't like the answers, don't ask the question.
Good Luck. I hope no one is seriously injured.

If you reward the horse when it kicks out - stopping forward motion, you are rewarding the horse. If you "beat" on the horse or discipline the horse whenever another horse is near it, it will learn to be afraid.

Last question. Is it only one side that the horse is troubled with? It could be a vision problem.... cannot see clearly, in a particular "zone"...

FridayzFortune

Sep. 7, 2004, 04:14 PM

Thankyou all for your help. Jumpforjoy and myshadeofpink, thank you two especially. Gabz :
"If you reward the horse when it kicks out - stopping forward motion, you are rewarding the horse."
Why would I reward my horse when he kicks out? Why would I want to tell him good boy for kicking?
Also, when I hit him when he kicks its not like a bad beating or anything like that. Just a tap hard enough to let him know it's not allowed. All horses are different. My first horse you couldn't even so much as raise a hand to her, you had to be very gentle and calm and quiet for her to respect and listen to you. Friday is the opposite. If you let him walk all over you, he will take the oppurtunity. If you are gentle and calm with him and let him thinks what he's doing is fine then he'll do it more often. No, he does it to all directions.

Sep. 7, 2004, 04:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FridayzFortune:
Also, when I hit him when he kicks its not like a bad beating or anything like that. Just a tap hard enough to let him know it's not allowed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I don't agree that "hitting" a horse who is reacting out of fear, as I suspect your horse is, will get you ANYwhere, this is probably one (just one) of the reasons your discipline is failing. What is "a tap hard enough to let him know it's not allowed."? To me that says "Hey, you wanna play that game? I'll play - tag you're it!" As humans, it is VERY hard for us to inflict pain or a scare response on a horse. Crops/bats/whips certainly help. But unless you are IMMEDIATE in your response and unless you make the horse think he just made the worst mistake of his life and will DIE, a "tap" is just making matters worse.

That said, as I indicated above, I don't think hitting as punishment is the appropriate response for this particular horse, based solely on what you have said about him. I think his reactions are out of fear and it will take a LOT of desensitizing, calming work to get him even remotely over that.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:18 PM

I agree with JB, although like I said earlier, I think real discipline needs to be done by a professional. A tap is really nothing to a horse, but a "reminder". For the reminder to be effective, like Fonzie said, "Ritchie, you once had to have actually hit somebody" (oops, dating myself http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif)

If I need to really discipline a horse, I do it like the herd leader does. Ever seen 2 horses in a kicking fight? They really make loud screams. So that is what I have seen to be most effective. My discipline is about 10% hit, and about 90% posture and yelling that goes like this: "Don't you ever, Ever, EVER, EVEN THINK ABOUT DOING THAT AGAIN!!!! NEVER!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME???? When I am done, I want them to have big eyes and snort (whew, what got into her today sheesh! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif) If not, I go dang, not enough.

xegeba

Sep. 7, 2004, 09:00 PM

Hey Friday!!! Perhaps your boy just hates other horses and hates to be bugged by humans! Maybe he just loves you ! Why ask why?

gabz

Sep. 8, 2004, 09:30 AM

Friday -
I am not saying to reward the horse when he kicks out. What I am asking is DO YOU STOP FORWARD MOTION when the horse kicks out? because if you do, then you are rewarding him. YOu must drive the horse forward. If you are reining him in as a disciplinary action, you are stopping forward motion.

so far as telling him he's a good boy- you have to feel him and see him prepare to kick, horse's tense up and hump their backs when they kick. You have to be sensitive to that feeling and before the horse actually kicks, reassure him that he is not threatened. ANYTIME a horse goes near him and he does NOT kick or threaten to kick you HAVE to reward him. and as FairviewHorse Center said - yes - raising your voice and "growling" at horses WORKS - just like talking soothing talk works to relax a horse.

I think you are in a vicious cycle in that you know/expect that the horse will misbehave, you get tense without even realizing it, the horse senses that there is something to be worried about and then reacts in the only way it knows. Many, many, many times excellent and top riders will tense and not even realize it. Horses can feel a fly landing on them. They can feel a mosquito landing on them. If you tighten any part of your body, it will create tenseness elsewhere that the horse can feel.

And - I have some confusion - there are places where you say it's when he is being ridden - but you also mention about his agressive-ness in his stall. **If** the ONLY time he kicks out is when he is being RIDDEN (not just sitting still) then it most likely is a saddle fit or rider position or combination, pain issues.

My horse - anytime someone tipped forward and pushed the saddle into his withers and shoulders, he would buck and kick.

I have helped beginner riders who had super sensitive horses by simply adding a thick saddle pad - even a western pad under an english pad (for your practice / hacking sessions) - to buffer the horse from feeling every little twitch of the beginner rider. It's a matter of small steps towards the end goal. You didn't learn to read by reading 10th grade literature for hours - don't expect your horse to learn without going through the baby steps for short periods first.

evenstar

Sep. 8, 2004, 04:20 PM

Wow. Also coming in late. I just read all 6 pages tonight.
My first thought was, "must be a troll". Especially when the friend came in with one or two posts.
But now, I think not.
So I will emphasize what so many others have said: a lot of good suggestions have been offered. Books aren't that expensive. Buy one. (You've heard of Amazon.com I assume? Hey, I never use it, but I'm an old fogey.) I recommend John Lyons wholeheartedly. I'm by no means an NH follower (more like Podhajsky), but there's nothing like that "three seconds of hell".
I also would like to really hear an answer as to whether or not ulcers have really been ruled out (I doubt it if it means justifying an additional expense to parents).
And I think that if the horse respected the rider, the kicking in the ring with other horses would not be an issue, once the rider made it clear it was not allowed. Hey, I've known of many horses for whom a smack of the crop was just "white noise". You might always get the pinned ears and the swishing tail, but the horse would know better than to actually kick, if he really saw the rider as the alpha and knew kicking was not acceptable.
Stall aggression is most likely coming from fear and defensiveness. Like at some time in the past, he was badly punished/abused in his stall (like for example someone cleaning his stall while he was in it stabbed him with the pitchfork - and this could have happened long before you bought him). In that case, I frankly just work around it and figure that eventually the horse will indeed become more trusting when only good things happen in the stall.
You have a lot of complex issues here - which will not be in any way helped by the assinine notion of tying him to some poor punching bag horse (whose quality of life apparently has no value) and crossing your fingers that they don't get seriously hurt. Honestly, that's the part that had me thinking "troll" - but maybe it's just the "horses as interchangeable livestock thing, and you know, if they break a leg, you can just sell them as meat."
Even when I was 14, I loved horses far too much to EVER consider such an abusive thing.

OneonOne

Sep. 9, 2004, 07:04 AM

Fridayz, I don't know if you are still checking in here, but I sent you another PT. I hope you take some of the suggestions here to heart!

Good luck! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Barbara L.

Sep. 9, 2004, 03:07 PM

Friday:
I have read every single post on this thread, though admittedly, I almost zoned out on a few of them.
Did you ever answer if you're guy has been checked for ulcers?
Since he seems to act up only when under tack (I think the territorialism in his stall is a separate issue, or let's assume it is)he seems to be very sensitive over his body: his belly, hindquarters, back, etc. Sometimes all of that points to his belly hurting inside, like when you have pains due to ulcers. I understand your worry about $$$$, but Cimeditine or aloe gel are two inexpensive alternatives that may make him less cranky.
While it is true that the only way to find ulcers is thru an endoscopic exam, you may just want to assume he has them and try the aloe gel or cimetidine. It can't hurt, and may help.
Also, I think you need to understand why everyone is losing patience with this issue: think about it--if one of your friends asked for advice and answered "no" to every suggestion you gave (even though she asked for help) you'd get very upset. Sometimes the answer is NOT one you want to hear! Life is just like that. It's not that you don't know what you ar doing, it is just that you seem to want a convenient answer that fits into your plan of keeping him, with no further expense, no more pressure on your mom (which is admirable), but sometimes life is not so clear cut.
Please try to aloe gel or cimetidine, and clear up the answer to the ulcer issue.
Then we can go from there.
Best of luck.

Lookout

Sep. 9, 2004, 03:31 PM

Horses that don't get any turnout are very prone to getting ulcers, so it's very possible that his problem is ulcers. Another way you can deal with this is to give him free choice hay, ALL of the time, to give the excess stomach acid something to digest.

bumknees

Sep. 9, 2004, 06:57 PM

Im not going ot make any comments on the NH or john lyons stuff because I know nothing about them... but a few things did stick out here.
first in the girls defince ( sp?) I have 'heard' of the tying of the horse thing before.. It is not something i would want to do it is not someting I would recomend be done at all... for reason stated and not staed already... so will not even go there...
friday is only mentioning her mom so I must assume that father dearest is either not in the picture or works alot or has a job that requires him at this time to be in another country( read military type). going on the assumption that father is not in the picture not due to job requirements this alone can put a large amount of pressure on a 14 yo girl ( it is really close to that time when daddy is the closest thing in her heart and daddy is the bessests guy in the world thing).
Her mom is ill with romoitoid authritis ( i know that neirhter of those words are spelled correctly) and has had many surgeries.. I have no personel experiance with this but i do have the good ol regular arthritis and I know it efect my kids soetimes when my joints are really hurting... they walk on eggs and it is not something i perticularly like... but i like it better then the pain getting in the way and me being very snappy. I can not imagine what my life would have been like if I were once again 14 with a mom who is ill like that.. so more pressure...
One thing she said that popped out to me was when she discribed when she touches him in certian places and he gets nasty.. For some reason I thought of my older brother his nerve endings are very close to the surface of his skin... or to put it another way he is thin skinned(litterally) and dosent have the thickness that other people do that allows it so dosent touching hurt. this may be something to look into.. not sure how but a vet should be able to figure it out somehow. Along with the ulcer thing that has been asked about before.
Friday the reason that people are/were appalled about the sugestion of tying up your horse to another is not that you are a mean nasty abusive person but if your horse should decide to kick out at the other horse and hurt the horse who would be there to
1) be silly enough to go inbetween the two horses one kicking the other unknown to 'break it up' and by chance not get hurt them selves.
2) if the other horse gets hurt who would pay for the vet to come out and do what woul have to be done to the horse best case a few bangs and brusises the worst put down...
I do not think that these people are 'attacking you' personally but the idea. I guess it would be liken to your mom or older sybling tying you up to someone who has known violent tendancies and the unknown.. what would happen to you in the end maybe nothing but one never knows.
You have alot on your plate to deal with a sick mom, a horse who apparently has an attitude problem and lots of pressure both at home and I would imagine at school.
You mentioned you did talk to the previous owners and they said something like 'he has always been that way it is just him' this also popped out at me like maybe the horse was spoiled beyond their abilities and they allowed him to walk over them and did nothing to correct it before it esculated to where it is now.. In that case while he may be a wonderful horse and you may and do love him and he is probably the stabalizingenity in your life you hve to start over with ground manners be firm but loving is nipping whiel being tacked which is now nibbling on the lead rope... how did you take it from nipping at you to nibbling at rope? now take it a step further. until there is no nibbling on rope.. kwim.
i owuld also imagine that you can feel the tension before he kicks out at another horse I would guess that for the brief moment you go in your mind 'oh no not again' type thought.. and then you get tense and send a message to the horse that maybe there is something to get tense about so maybe i better kick out.. seehow that circle happens.. you expect i he 'feels' your expications, he tenses up, you think and get tense then he kicks... it is a vicious cycle it really is...
I do not think that anyone is doubting your abilities but you are a 14 yo and yes even one with alot on her pate still a child.. and most who have posted here are parents and adults who have been through the 14 you stage and yes at one time we were all industrictable and imortal... that is until we realized that instead of bouncing we go thud quite well... I think that what you are perceeving at a personel attack is an adults way of saying ' please be safe.. life is to difficult to live with to begin with without putting yourself in harms way.'
Please go back with a slightly clearer head and re read what people have posted in a non defensive way.. but rather in hte way in which it was ment ... hoping to assist a 14 yo with a difficult horse with out really seeing either of them and how they get along etc...
I have to agree that friday does need turn out and that apparently is not an option thought you do send him on vacations so he can on occasion... ( and i understand your mom who is ill gives some flack about that notice i did not say she is abusive in any way... she is in pain she is ill, she can no longer enjoy something she once did) but I would ask the BO/ BM if it is at all possible to allow friday to have a bail of hay thrown in to his stall as needed so he has it there all the time. the way the horses digestive system works is a much to long anamoity and physology lecture to go into but in shrot his gut needs the ruffage to properly work but I am sure you already know this and maybe he does have an ulcer.. and some grass ahy to make up for what he can not get in pasture will do something for his attitude...
One thing I will call you on task to however.. Is when you said 'QH have been determined to be more terrotorial then other breeds' thing.. no the breed them selves are not some like all breeds from the most fancy bred to the good ol heinz 57 are more so them others.. it is the individual horse and I read somewhere it can go back to when they were babies and how they were or were not handled...
If I am sounding like a parent of teenagers and it may sound like i am talking 'down to you' but yes I am a perent of 2 teens and no i am not talking down to you i am talking to you just as I would if you were one of mine. And I really did not read any replys where anyone was talking 'down to you' but rather talking to you as they would their child or younger sybling.. Itis just something that we adults do...
You like I said before have alot on your plate.. and I do not envy you I wish you luck of course in the hops that you find the underlying reason for your horses ( is this the right teen word theses days ) 'tude because just as in physics for every reaction thereis an oppsite and equal reaction.. inother word something has to be the underlying cause in order to get such a reaction from your horse.. wether it be for example ucler pain or just bad manners... the trick is to be open enough to explore all the possibilities...

Chase-Face

Sep. 11, 2004, 06:08 AM

I personally know Friday and his owner. Friday is my horses,Chase, best friend, and his owner is my best friend. She loves Friday more then anything in the whole entire world. Friday only kicks other horses when they get too close to him, and he has only kicked one person, a trainer at our barn, and thats because he has sensitive skin and she most likely tickled her. FriFri is a great horse with a very promising future with a very promising rider as his owner and his mommy. She is doing everything possible to help her baby, and she only came here for HELPFUL suggestions, she didn't want critiscim and people putting her down. So next time think a little about what you would do if your horse was like this, and you were a fourteen year old girl who was very confused and worried. Please be a little nicer and more considerate.

~Caroline and Chase~

J Swan

Sep. 11, 2004, 06:42 AM

She did receive helpful advice. She was also asked specific questions which she chose not to answer. She also discounted any advice she received; then became defensive and rude when the questions become more direct and succinct. Additionally, there was a great deal of confusion because of the contradictions in her story, and some sincere concern for her safety.

Your statement concerning the behavior of her horse is completely different from hers.

A fourteen year old is quite capable of listening, understanding and of being gracious and polite. I treated her like an intelligent person capable of rational thought and expected the same in return. Particularly since this BB is geared toward adult discussion.

Again, she received very helpful and professional advice. How she reacts to it is her responsibility.

Chase-Face

Sep. 11, 2004, 02:01 PM

Of course she reacted the way she did!! Wouldn't you if complete strangers were telling you that you needed to sell your horse and that he was unhappy?! Friday is really really happy, all horses can be cranky!!! You can not tell me that you have never in your whole life met one horse that has been naturally cranky!! Friday has never been abused or anything, thats just how he is! Just because she gets upset does not mean she is being immature, she is actually being quite mature about this whole ordeal. I find most of the stuff that y'all are saying very rude, and so does alot of other people who actually know the situation. So I'm sorry if you think she is being rude or immature or anything like that, she just cares alot about her horse, and wanted advice...good advice. I do not consider telling her that her horse needs to be sold or is in pain good advice.

LMH

Sep. 11, 2004, 02:29 PM

Then perhaps there is nothing more that needs to be said on this thread?

Tiny Monkey

Sep. 11, 2004, 04:53 PM

It just occurred to me where Friday is boarded. You know Friday, some horses don't cut it where you keep him. I know the facility well and those are just the facts. You NEED to move him. Plain and simple. He will only get meaner and probably end up on a trailer going to UGA for some stress induced injury or illness.

Oh, just for the record, not ONE trainer their would EVER tie two horses together for a kicking problem or any other reason. If they did the barn managers would kick you and your trainer to the curb.

bauhaus

Sep. 11, 2004, 07:09 PM

Look, I think the primary issue here is a lack of interest/support/understanding from the OP's parents.

Friday, you are in a nearly impossible situation. Your horse is dangerous to you, period. Kicking as a routine behavior even only in certain circumstances is not acceptable. Ever. Particularly in a horse owned by a child. We realize that you recognize this is a problem and want to correct it. I think the reason so many people were flying off the handle here as your story developed (beyond the question about tying 2 horses together) is that none of us can believe a 14 year old is trying to deal with this kind of a problem. You are absolutely 100% correct that this horse is not appropriate for anyone but a professional.

You and your trainer are obviously doing the best job you can with him since no one has gotten hurt yet but your luck is going to run out one day. With a sick parent (I have first hand knowledge of sick parents, by the way) you are not getting the kind of support you need in this situation. I think your trainer is probably trying her best to make this work out for you, without spending a whole lot of money or making waves by insisting you change barns. If the solution were easy and cheap she probably would have come up with it by now. But you and your trainer are going to HAVE to pursue some of the expensive/difficult suggestions given here.

Maybe, as a start, you could give ulcer medication without scoping him just to see if it works. That would be a relatively cheap thing you could try. But, if it works, you will have to ask your parents to spend the money to keep it up. If the problem is turnout, nothing but more turnout is going to solve it. There is no mechanical/training fix for a horse who develops unacceptable behavior as the result of living confined to a stall 23 hours a day. And this is going to force you to make a difficult decision. No matter how you look at it you have only 2 choices: tell your parents you have a big problem with your horse and you need their help financially or time-wise to solve it... or tell your parents you think you may need to sell him and find one who can thrive in an environment with very little/no turnout. You cannot fix this problem without their support.

The alternative is to continue to put that red ribbon in your horse's tail and apoligize repeatedly to the riders around you. Eventually, this will frustrate and upset you so much you won't WANT to ride anymore b/c it isn't worth the stress. If your parents cared enough to buy you a horse and pay for board and lessons in the first place they obviously want you to be happy doing it. This isn't like you want a new $3000 saddle or 4 new pairs of $300 breeches to show in. This is a safety issue - not a matter of spending money on frivolous things.

FridayzFortune

Sep. 11, 2004, 07:10 PM

Umm well maybe you don't know my trainer, but a trainer at another barn suggested it to my trainer and she thought we would try it. But since then she hasn't said a word about so and I doubt we're going to do it. You say you know the barn well. Do you know my horse by any chance?

FridayzFortune

Sep. 11, 2004, 07:21 PM

I know how to handle myself around him, and he knows not to ever kick me. I have made that very clear to him. I don't really understand some of these replies, but it could be I'm just ignorant. Why couldn't this just be his personality? Why do all horses have to be happy and love everything? There are many people who are unhappy and even suicidal and nobody says they have a medical problem. My trainer has never even mentioned me having to sell him, I never even thought about it. I don't think that it would help him tremendously. It would help if he had pasture, but he's always going to be cranky and territorial. It's just him. Why is everyone trying to make up excuses?

J Swan

Sep. 12, 2004, 02:01 AM

Well then we're back where we started. You're offered advice which you discount and then you obfuscate.

Since the advice is not well received, and you seem to know exactly what is going on with your horse, frankly I see no point in anyone continuing to post on this subject.

Perhaps Erin could close it and there's an end.

Sep. 12, 2004, 05:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FridayzFortune:
Why do all horses have to be happy and love everything?
They don't, but certain behaviors are safer than others, and the ones that are not safe (kicking) need to either be resolved through training, or the horse needs to be put into an environment where he does not feel the need to kick. It's that simple.

There are many people who are unhappy and even suicidal and nobody says they have a medical problem.
That's a problem.

My trainer has never even mentioned me having to sell him, I never even thought about it. I don't think that it would help him tremendously. It would help if he had pasture, but he's always going to be cranky and territorial.
Again, the issue is most likely NOT because he's the top dog and territorial, it sounds like he is feeling pressured and afraid and is reacting out of defense. Proper training can help that. It's just him. Why is everyone trying to make up excuses?
No one here is making excuses, you are, it's that simple. We have offered advice, you say "it won't work because..." without even pondering that yes, it might work. We have not made excuses, we have offered observations and suggestions based on experience. I'm sorry you don't see it that way. No one here is doubting your love for Friday, but love will not fix this problem.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tannenwald Trakehner

Sep. 12, 2004, 07:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FridayzFortune:
There are many people who are unhappy and even suicidal and nobody says they have a medical problem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, often this IS the result of a medical problem. More often than it is not. Why do you think there are so many antidepressant drugs on the market, if not for treating a medical problem? People suffer depression, even suicidal depression, for various reasons, including hormonal and other chemical imbalances.

A good example is the drug Prozac, which is a seratonin uptake inhibitor. Seratonin is produced in the body and daylight/sunshine stimulates the production. Prozac helps the body hold on to the seratonin it is making longer, which maintains the concentration of this "feel good" chemical.

Many people also suffer depression during the short-day times of the year. This is called Seasonal Affective Disorder, and it is treated by exposing the person to artificial daylight via a lightbox and other meds. Again, the problem is seratonin.

Which takes us back to turnout being good for horses... I don't know how seratonin production works in the horse, but I would think it is something similar to humans. Therefore, no turnout=no sunlight=limited seratonin.

Nicker

Sep. 12, 2004, 08:24 AM

I just have one question...if you were suicidal and depressed wouldn't you want someone to help you? I have a history of mental illness on one side of my family, had an uncle commit suicide. Do you think we just sat back and said Oh well thats who he is? NO WAY! Unfortunately there was only so much we could do for him. It was a wake up call for others in my family though. You have received alot of good advice on this board. Only time anyone got defensive was when you shot down advice you didn't like, that was outside your comfort zone. Regular turnout is VERY important to a horse. Horses stalled are prone to ulcers yet you haven't answered the one question of have you had him scoped? If you are unable to afford to help him , maybe you should sell him to someone willing to put the money into him and get a more stable, low maintenance horse. Just a thought, again, if you don't like it fine. You asked for advice and I gave it.

MyShadeOfPink

Sep. 13, 2004, 09:48 AM

if I had a flare gun i would fire it right now

some of you are being ridiculous that includes the original poster and some of the recent replies. The nastiness of some them are absolutely appalling.

Some of you are saying Friday "NEEDS" to do this and "NEEDS" to do that. How do you know? Your not there. You can't make a definitive decision about this horse when you haven’t met him. While Friday should consider that those could be solutions to the problem you can’t say that he definitely needs to do it.

As for you Friday, you need to calm down. Your only feeding the fire by replying to some of theses posts.

Not to mention people have recommended selling or moving your horse and despite the fact that it IS a distinct possibility that that could make HIM happier, you wont hear of it.

as I said before: Sometimes loving something means letting them go

Anyway, Friday I must say, you are fourteen years old. You are old enough to make a decision without your trainer and you are old enough and hopefully mature enough to see that tying two horses together IS a bad idea.

It gravely disappoints me that after this thread you still would consider it if your trainer wanted you to.

And that is not a personal attack and nothing that deserves some defensive response. It's only fact and observation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nicker:
Horses stalled are prone to ulcers yet you haven't answered the one question of have you had him scoped? If you are unable to afford to help him , maybe you should sell him to someone willing to put the money into him and get a more stable, low maintenance horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that was an excellent and well put point.

cog_behaviorist

Sep. 13, 2004, 01:43 PM

In an attempt to reconcile my urge to run screaming from this thread with my urge to grab some of its participants by the collar and shake them, I am going to summarise the contents so far in a calm, unbiased, rational manner, and in very small words. Since selling him has been roundly decried, I will not mention it as an option.

Friday, you are facing the following possibilities:

1) Your horse has a medical problem.
2) Your horse has an environmental problem.
3) Your horse has a behavioral problem.
4) Your horse has a personality quirk.

Taking these possibilities into account one at a time, you have the following options available to you:

1) Medical Problem
Your horse may have ulcers. We know that horses without regular, significant turnout are prone to ulcers, but if your horse does have ulcers it is not a reflection on you or your level of care. These can't be diagnosed from a simple vet exam or by "looking him over." It requires a medical test referred to as a scope. You can have this test done to be absolutely sure, or you can try him on *a minimum* of two weeks of ulcer medication to see if it helps.

2) Environmental Problem
Your horse may simply not be suited to life in a paddock and stall. Some horses aren't. You should not take this as a reflection of you or your level of care. Your options are to let him go "on vacation" more often, move him to a different barn, or perhaps find someone willing to share a lease who has access to a different barn and would be willing to help you out with transportation.

3) Behavioral Problem
Your horse may have, over time, built up a behavioral problem. You should not take this as a reflection of you or your level of care. Behaviors can be changed, but it requires time, effort, and consistency. Behavioral changes should not be undertaken without proper guidance, primarily because you can accidentally instill new, less desirable behaviors. There are multiple sources for books, articles, workshops, etc, for appropriate training materials, much of which is low/no-cost. Ideally, you could contact a NH trainer in your area. Perhaps your trainer would be willing to split the cost with you, in exchange for learning some new techniques.

4) Personality Quirk
Some horses are just born.. odd. You should not take this as a reflection of you or your level of care, but honestly there is absolutely nothing you can do. Expect that he will continue to behave this way no matter what, and let go of any residual frustration you may be carrying as a result. Continue to tie the ribbon in his tail, yell out warnings to other riders, and perhaps put a sign on his stall warning other boarders/visitors that he behaves in a less-than-desirable manner under certain circumstances.

And just because I can't resist, I want to take issue with this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> There are many people who are unhappy and even suicidal and nobody says they have a medical problem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a therapist, I (mostly) pay my mortgage telling people they have a combination of a medical and behavioral problem. Every single day. I've committed more people than I can count to psychiatric hospitals because they were unhappy and suicidal and had a medical problem. When I have to tell them they have personality quirks, it's usually in conjunction with pulling out a referral pad, because those are the long-term, "only-thing-that-will-help-is-a-radical-shift-in-perspective-or-middle/old-age" cases. So if I were you, I'd hope like hell that your horse has a medical or behavioral problem, 'cause otherwise you're stuck with option #4.

Teach

Sep. 13, 2004, 02:09 PM

BRA-VO, cog_behaviorist! You have summed up the entire thread in a neat package. Hopefully Friday will be able to gain what she needs from your "voice of reason" post & make a mature decision about how to proceed. My hat is off to you! Welcome to the board-hope you'll stay! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Sparky

Sep. 13, 2004, 04:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FridayzFortune:
I know how to handle myself around him, and he knows not to ever kick me. I have made that very clear to him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I just can't let this go without telling you that our community buried one of our long time dressage professionals on Wednesday. She was 52 years old and was kicked in the chest by her horse. Your horse doesn't know to never kick you. Nothing is clear to him. Please, he sounds unpredictable, and you are no match for him.

Sep. 13, 2004, 05:00 PM

Just wanted to add there is a new, inexpensive urine test for ulcers. No need for the pricey scoping any more http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SunshineGA

Sep. 14, 2004, 07:23 AM

Friday- you have a PT, you've had one from me for a while now. If you haven't checked them in a while, please check them.

If you have and are just ignoring me, at least acknowledge the fact that you recieved one. That would be the polite, mature thing to do, even if you do not want my help.

Thank you.

Tanyanoel

Sep. 14, 2004, 03:16 PM

She says - "but he's always going to be cranky and territorial. It's just him. Why is everyone trying to make up excuses?"

Perhaps because you are posting here and asking for advice?

If you don't want advice, don't post and ask for it!!!!!!!!!

FridayzFortune

Sep. 14, 2004, 04:57 PM

sunshine, I am not trying to ignore you, I don't know how to check them.

SunshineGA

Sep. 15, 2004, 04:21 AM

OK, just go to the top where it says Go, New, Find, Tools, and Reply (I know you know where that is http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) and click on Go, My Spcae, Private Messaging and click on that and it will take you to your PM box http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Its that easy! I kinda figured you didn't know how to check them, thats fine http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

evenstar

Sep. 15, 2004, 06:23 PM

Super post, Cog_behaviorist.

I tried to be reasonable in my own post some pages back, but I managed to go a little overboard at the end. Your summary of the basic points was really spot on, especially the phrase:

"You should not take this as a reflection of you or your level of care."

mbdobbs

Sep. 15, 2004, 08:05 PM

Hello --

I'm coming in quite late here too, just found this thread and read MOST of it. I have DONE natural horsemanship, I have the Parrelli stuff, and I can say that IT WORKS. I only do Level One, so I'm not jumping courses with no saddle or bridle. HOWEVER

My mare was known to be a bitch and a kicker, and she is NEITHER now. In fact, she just stands in the cross-tie area quietly without even being cross tied. She has become mellow and easy and respectful. She was NONE of those things before. Now, part of this is when I got her, she started getting worked more often, which she needed, but she is also an OTTB.

So, Friday, I can make a few Natural Horsemanship recommendations, but you have to do them regularly, and they won't produce results in two days, but here goes:

TOUCH HIM EVERYWHERE. When he doesn't let you, that's okay. Back off, touch him somewhere else, and then try again. After a while, leave it and give him a break. DO it every day.

Go into his stall and just squat down and sit there. Don't look at him. Just sit there. Since he may get violent, don't literally "sit," because you do want to be able to scoot, but just try to stay in there. IN fact, you might best start out by going in there and leaning against the wall, but not looking at him. Just let him come to you. When he sniffs you, don't pet him right away. Just hang out in there with him. Don't expect anything. Don't make him THINK yo expect anything.

Always stand around him with very relaxed body language. you know, shrug, and let your body relax. That will make him relax more. Then you will be able to touch him more.

Okay, that's enough for now. AS I said, it won't get better in a matter of days, but it will in a matter of weeks. If I had a dime for every person at my barn who can't believe my horse is the same horse she was a year ago, I'd be a wealthy woman.

Melissa