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suzy
Aug. 29, 2010, 08:32 PM
Karoline, Good point regarding the height of the poll. And, I think it also supports the idea of directives rather than rules. Or, at least, a more definitive description such as "the poll should be at the highest point in accordance with the level at which the horse is competing."

barnbum81
Aug. 29, 2010, 08:36 PM
From a training methodology which was supposed to allow a horse and rider to achieve through understanding and sympathetic communication the progressive gymnastic development of the horse and rider it has become a way for the rider to subdue the horse through progressive torture and strangulation and force it to produce wild gyrations that mimic that highest development for the amusement of the masses and the making of large sums of money?!! Apparently shitty, cruel, and despicable training of dressage horses is just as rewarded as that of the big lick walkers.


This was the point I was trying to make although I did not accomplish stating it so eloquently :D

NOMIOMI1
Aug. 29, 2010, 08:51 PM
*raises hand* I'll say it!

There absolutely is a tremendous amount of force involved in dressage :)

Your core is a weapon, and honed correctly you are literally getting a 1500 pound animal to sit in between your aids, and the POWER that your are controling within front to back is substantial. O course that means that you exzert FORCE to collect and contain that movement. Certain horses will not sit back and be light and do it all so willingly as Totilas, and certain horse will need a greater amount of FORCE than others.

It's like positive tension, force isn't a bad word and I won't always believe that training is harmony at all times. Any athelete is aware of what true competition means, it's not a dance without sweat or grit or determination.

Hence why certain riders are a good match to a more powerful animal. Anky certainly rides stronger more tense animals, and her ability to keep and contain their obvious show of strength is hardly a thing just anyone can do.

SOME horses are more amicable but still need force for motivation.

Your body sends signals of force. "Get in front of my leg." "Behind my hand." Some horses don't just stop at a small hint of these barriers, some need to practically see a wall there. Like a certain ones will test a fence, and others are content to remain.

It's all relative to that.

mbm
Aug. 29, 2010, 09:33 PM
It's not about "belief". Look it up yourself.


i did and what i posted is the exact wording of the document which i link to here again (notice the link is called "dressage RULES,"

the document itself is called "rules for dressage events, 22nd edition" etc etc



http://old.fei.org/d/PDFS/DressageRules2006_w_corr_07_000.pdf,

mbm
Aug. 29, 2010, 09:47 PM
Karoline, Good point regarding the height of the poll. And, I think it also supports the idea of directives rather than rules. Or, at least, a more definitive description such as "the poll should be at the highest point in accordance with the level at which the horse is competing."

the entire quote from the FEI RULES was posted pages ago. I am curious what the point is about the poll being differing heights depending on the stage of training?

because no matter what stage, the horse needs to be poll high. and altho we are talking about FEI here, a training level horse can be poll high as long as its poll is above the withers and the neck isnt curled in some fashion.

as long as the horse inst hand ridden and is allowed to put its neck where it needs to the poll high thing shouldnt be an issue.....

egontoast
Aug. 29, 2010, 09:48 PM
"Behind my hand."

cringe.

NOMIOMI1
Aug. 29, 2010, 09:55 PM
I knew that was a bad example (but my trainer does teach behind the hand when you are in certain movements to a degree) and I left it since I knew SOME people would jump on that and not the entire post.

I'm not going to mince my words for the birds here *shrug*

Fixerupper
Aug. 29, 2010, 10:30 PM
NOMIOMI1...that was pretty eloquent.

there is a real difference between soft and pretty and strong and exciting....the preference is not only individual but, I suspect, the real issue behind the like/don't like regarding modern dressage.

Karoline
Aug. 30, 2010, 03:11 AM
Karoline, Good point regarding the height of the poll. And, I think it also supports the idea of directives rather than rules. Or, at least, a more definitive description such as "the poll should be at the highest point in accordance with the level at which the horse is competing."

Hi Suzy,

Its pretty much spelled out in section 6. And mbm i think there is a danger in the wording "poll high" because it is qualified as a SUPPLE poll and it must work in tandem with the nose IFV. This allows the entire spinal column to be completely flexible and the atlanto-occipital joint to function optimally. The open throatlatch ensures that there is no pressure on the wing of the atlas from the branch of the mandibule and that the parotid glands, airway and blood supply channels are not squashed. These rules are based on biomechanics not
academia.

Karoline
Aug. 30, 2010, 03:13 AM
Karoline, that is indeed an odd poster. It purports to show RK vs. LDR, yet I see no difference, according to the artist's depiction.

There is a difference, though I know the Rollkurmaniacs can't acknowledge it.

And the FEI has not volunteered photos to differentiate the two. Its not just the rolkurmaniacs who cant see a difference. Further, the sketches released by the FEI which show horses at the walk, in a snaffle dont look anything like what Anky does on her horses as recently as the pics taken in the UK.

There is no differences in posture.

alicen
Aug. 30, 2010, 07:28 AM
These rules are based on biomechanics not
academia.

Well said, Karoline.

Fixerupper
Aug. 30, 2010, 09:29 AM
These rules are based on biomechanics not
academia.

explain, please, how biomechanics is not academic?

(cause parotid, atlas, mandibule (sic) sound pretty academic to me)

ThreeFigs
Aug. 30, 2010, 11:53 AM
Karoline, I'd respectfully disagree about "no differences in posture".

RK is a forced position for the horse.

LDR is elastic, stretchy and light.

When force is applied to a horse in LDR, it can become RK, but until that point (the use of force) it is not RK.

NOMIOMI1
Aug. 30, 2010, 12:19 PM
NOMIOMI1...that was pretty eloquent.

there is a real difference between soft and pretty and strong and exciting....the preference is not only individual but, I suspect, the real issue behind the like/don't like regarding modern dressage.


Very true :)

mbm
Aug. 30, 2010, 12:25 PM
the rules state that the horse must be poll high with its nose slightly in front of the vertical. so i am no sure i understand the disagreement?

and the rules were created by teh guys that knew what they were talking about ie: academia but it was based on their understanding of bio-mechanics.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Aug. 30, 2010, 01:38 PM
Beasmom has stated the simple, fundimental, facts in the best way possible. It is exactly as she says.

ThreeFigs
Aug. 30, 2010, 03:44 PM
Thank you DRR.

I will elaborate by saying that LDR, that elastic, stretchy, light one, without force, is a suppling, strengthening, stretching exercise for the horse. It, or a variation on that theme, would only be seen in the show ring as the "stretchy circle".

It is not the end result exhibited in the test -- it is one means to that end. It is useful and beneficial, but it is no more "part" of a dressage test than stationery in-hand jaw flexions are. it's a tool, a technique.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Aug. 30, 2010, 03:47 PM
Bravo!

NOMIOMI1
Aug. 30, 2010, 03:52 PM
Thank you DRR.

I will elaborate by saying that LDR, that elastic, stretchy, light one, without force, is a suppling, strengthening, stretching exercise for the horse. It, or a variation on that theme, would only be seen in the show ring as the "stretchy circle".

It is not the end result exhibited in the test -- it is one means to that end. It is useful and beneficial, but it is no more "part" of a dressage test than stationery in-hand jaw flexions are. it's a tool, a technique.


So true.

Training a horse and riding a test are fairly different in that if you want a flexible (not just the hind) animal you need to change shape/frame and tempo to give that nice elasticity.

Muscle bound animals need even more stretching while the lighter breeds need even more shaping IMO.

spirithorse
Aug. 30, 2010, 03:57 PM
LDR is not rolkur, but could be a result of rolkur schooling.

The presentation of LDR cannot reflect the rider appling pressure to the bit which breaks the horse's head carriage at the poll. At least that is what was explained to me by a qualified dressage judge......

alicen
Aug. 30, 2010, 05:07 PM
So the way I see it, Appels is going to have to prove that "aggressive force" was used in the picture in question to merit the description of rollkur and Anky/Sjef (?) have to prove that the picture is obviously and indisputedly Anky. I see lawyers gleefully rubbing their hands together and laughing their heads off.

spirithorse
Aug. 30, 2010, 05:27 PM
Appels can prove 'aggressive force'...........there are scientific equipment pieces that can do so.

siegi b.
Aug. 30, 2010, 06:00 PM
Here is some reading material for all of you "bleeding heart" anti Anky/Sjef/RK/LDR folks....
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270304

Now let's talk about animal abuse!

carolprudm
Aug. 30, 2010, 06:21 PM
Here is some reading material for all of you "bleeding heart" anti Anky/Sjef/RK/LDR folks....
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270304

Now let's talk about animal abuse!

I hope she's kidding....

Aug. 26, 2010, 09:11 PM
somageek (http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/member.php?u=138692) http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif
Training Level
Join Date: Jul. 28, 2010
Posts: 41


http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif
Mag Sulfate is a fairly common practice. It is safe in certain doses and when given slowly - if given too fast or too much it can be lethal. But that's why we're professionals, right? ... There are trainers out there that give way too much medication whether legal or illegal, but in any discipline, heck, in any sport, there are people that abuse the rules and abuse their athletes (human or not). I whole heartedly agree with medicating horses to prep them. So many talented horses are just too wild on their own to be able to show without a certain amount of prep. I think the wildest horse we ever had would get thiamine, robaxin, and mag sulfate. Some medications just work better for certain horses than others. We never stack NSAIDS (because, duh, it's illegal), most of the horses get robaxin for THEIR well being, not ours. Very few of them will get robaxin + an NSAID. Most of them will get dex (no more than 5 days in a row, if that, and only ever 5cc the night before). And the wild ones will get either thiamine, tryptophan or mag sulfate. Obviously any intelligent professional will stay within legal limits, it's just not worth the risk, and those limits are established for a reason. I see no problem in medicating within the rules.

ToN Farm
Aug. 30, 2010, 06:27 PM
This deserves its' own spinoff thread. It takes a lot to shock me, but Siegi's link did just that.

alicen
Aug. 30, 2010, 08:20 PM
This deserves its' own spinoff thread. It takes a lot to shock me, but Siegi's link did just that.

There's a thread on hunter/jumper forum now.

Sebastian
Aug. 30, 2010, 08:51 PM
Here is some reading material for all of you "bleeding heart" anti Anky/Sjef/RK/LDR folks....
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270304

Now let's talk about animal abuse!

Please... You're as vitriolic in your support as some others are in being "anti Anky...et. al."

And, the above has nothing to do with this discussion. Distraction is NOT a defense.

Seb :)

mbm
Aug. 30, 2010, 08:51 PM
holy crap.

i wonder if they can track that person via IP address and report them to the authorities?

mbm
Aug. 30, 2010, 08:53 PM
btw: , just becuase things like hunters and walking horses exists is not defense for miss spakypants and her cohorts .

ToN Farm
Aug. 30, 2010, 09:09 PM
btw: , just becuase things like hunters and walking horses exists is not defense for miss spakypants and her cohorts . No, it's not a defense, but a lot of us think that effort would be better spent solving those issues than fixating on a handful of people that ride round and deep. It's like...let's work on the most severe problems first.

mbm
Aug. 30, 2010, 09:12 PM
ok ToN - go and "work on " the problem of drugging in the hunters. let me know how that goes for you, the outsider, k?

narcisco
Aug. 30, 2010, 09:20 PM
Now, I am not an expert on Belgium or European law, but this is my take.

The picture is of Sal, not Anky. Although Sal was performing in a public venue, he falls under the celebrity image rights law.

http://www.licensingpages.com/2010/03/celebrity-image-rights/

Sal did not sign a photo release or a consent to use his image. They are using his image to make it look like he is endorsing this service. Therefore, the only one with a right to sue is Salinero. Furthermore, he is the one who has allegedly suffered the most damages and has the most to gain in a lawsuit.

Karoline
Aug. 30, 2010, 09:23 PM
explain, please, how biomechanics is not academic?

(cause parotid, atlas, mandibule (sic) sound pretty academic to me)

What I am trying to say is that when I first started looking at the rules I used to think about them from a theory standpoint of Latin vs.Germanic vs. Dutch historical training but what makes more sense is to look at it exclusively from an anatomy in movement or biomechanical standpoint which has no theory attached to it but what is healthy or not healthy for the whole body. From that standpoint, the rules - except the new addition of the 10 minute rules - so I speak of the foundation rules make a lot of sense because they encourage elasticity and eveneness in the body and calm and confidence in the mind so you build toward that calm, keen, confident, attentive, supple, loose and flexible horse and it does not break down.

I try to use correct terminology not because it makes me an expert, we have vets here who are, but because if I do not and I use analogies then each post would be much longer. I do believe that a basic knowledge of anatomy helps recognize what a horse can and cannot. For example, there are riders who believe the spine is placed underneath the mane and so when we speak of the neck being round they do not realize the shape the spine has to adopt if the neck is rounded incorrectly. They think of the horse posture from the outside rather then the inside out.

spirithorse
Aug. 30, 2010, 09:39 PM
IF the image is Sal, he is not protected under the celebrity image rights law, because the image is not being used in a commercial manner. There is not a representation of endorsement of rolkur by Sal.
The image is a representation of rolkur and not of the rider.

Anky/Sjef's images of them riding in rolkur are not protected because the images are not being used in a commercial manner. The images are being used to represent a training method that Anky/Sjef have publically endorsed and which has been declared as not appropriate by FEI.



The picture is of Sal, not Anky. Although Sal was performing in a public venue, he falls under the celebrity image rights law.

http://www.licensingpages.com/2010/03/celebrity-image-rights/

Sal did not sign a photo release or a consent to use his image. They are using his image to make it look like he is endorsing this service.

Karoline
Aug. 30, 2010, 09:41 PM
Karoline, I'd respectfully disagree about "no differences in posture".

RK is a forced position for the horse.

LDR is elastic, stretchy and light.

When force is applied to a horse in LDR, it can become RK, but until that point (the use of force) it is not RK.

The difference is in the eye of the beholder. You see an LDR horse that is elastic, stretchy, light. I know that to develop those qualities a body must be able to expand and contract, expand and contract. A horse in and LDR position cannot move its entire muscle mass in extension/contraction.

I know that the suppleness of the back, freedom of the shoulder and ability of the loin to coil is dependent on the angle and position of the neck and head _the position of the spine) so I see a horse with leg movement - at increased risk for suspensory - with a hindleg that trails behind or who by being forced under increases the risk of sacrum damage and massive stifle/patella damages - I see necks where the spine is jammed and the horses are at increased risk of nerve damage resulting in gait abnormality and neurological damages.

Finally, I see hyperflexed postures that are kept much longer then the maximum 90 seconds a stretch can be kept without damaging the soft tissues, tendons and ligaments, posture that place horses on their forehands and prevent the correct development of collection as a lowering of the haunches and I do not agree that LDR is any better then RK.

But that's my opinion based on time spent studying vs. riders who are champions so my conclusion is that you should not listen to me, at best I can hope you pick up anatomy textbook if you have not already and then read, speak to your vet(s), observe. And then form your own conclusion.

spirithorse
Aug. 30, 2010, 09:55 PM
Although rolkur is the extreme of ldr, both are movements against the horse.

Karoline has it right...lowering the poll below the withers while a horse is ridden places the weight on the forehand and the back hollows and the shoulders become blocked.

There is no way to avoid this because the muscle structure of the horse responds in this manner.

The natural relaxed carriage of the head and neck for the horse that is being ridden, is when the poll is even with the withers or slightly above. Even the various equine associations recognize this in their rules by declaring that the horses shall not carry their heads and necks lower.

From the Cavalry Manual:
"...It consists of an extension and lowering of the neck, obtained by a yielding of the fingers proportional to the extent of movement desires; and the neck being lowered, the weight is displaced towards the shoulders.
A well-trained horse gradually acquires a permanemt, graceful, and very slight flexion at the poll when on a stretched rein, while the remainder of the neck is naturally and fully extended. With this head carriage, he is referred to as having his head "well-placed. It is in a position where the bits may act from an advantageous angle, and the horse can easily see everything in his foreground."

Fixerupper
Aug. 30, 2010, 11:07 PM
And yet what remains, Karoline, is that that is your opinion and not medical or even bio-mechanical fact.

Do you really think that there is a conspiracy of all the FEI vets, let alone the majority of vets involved in horse sport and research, to ignore a practice that can be shown to brutally damage every part of the horse? Now I think that's a bit of a stretch...nevermind LDR...

spirithorse
Aug. 30, 2010, 11:18 PM
Fixerupper:
There have been vets whom have appeared before FEI questioning the validity of rolkur/ldr and suggesting that there maybe damage being done to the horses.
As for the bio-mechanical fact....is is well established that lowering the head and neck below the withers of the ridden horse, blocks the shoulders and weights the forehand and hollows the back. Varous governing bodies for equine venues stipulate in their rules that the head and neck of the horse shall not be lower than the withers.
As for a conspiracy, well only the Shadow knows for sure. That being said, the lack of actions on the part of the governing individuals at FEI to obtain scientific evidence one way or the other, clearly demonstrates their willingness to turn a blind eye to the possible problems arising from rolkur/ldr.



And yet what remains, Karoline, is that that is your opinion and not medical or even bio-mechanical fact.

Do you really think that there is a conspiracy of all the FEI vets, let alone the majority of vets involved in horse sport and research, to ignore a practice that can be shown to brutally damage every part of the horse? Now I think that's a bit of a stretch...nevermind LDR...

Karoline
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:06 AM
And yet what remains, Karoline, is that that is your opinion and not medical or even bio-mechanical fact.

Do you really think that there is a conspiracy of all the FEI vets, let alone the majority of vets involved in horse sport and research, to ignore a practice that can be shown to brutally damage every part of the horse? Now I think that's a bit of a stretch...nevermind LDR...

What the FEI vets keep saying is: "there is not enough conclusive research to prove a problem or not". I cannot speak for all vets, but I think most vets do not watch their clients ride, they treat the results of training but few feel qualified to comment on why the horses are lame. I would be curious what they are taught in school about how to handle detrimental riding, my guess is nothing. And, if you are a vet and you start linking training to lameness you may loose a lot of business because trainers dont see that as helpful but as interfering.

And you are right it is my opinion which is why I suggest everyone does their own research, dissect, study and observe.

Fixerupper
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:10 AM
'suggesting there may be damage being done' is also not fact - medical or otherwise

AS I have said every time I get into one of these 'discussions'....I have never said that I like/support/recommend RK/LDR

I simply object to the opinions that are being presented as facts.....

If the exercise were indeed ...and I quote...

slowly strangling the horse
damaging soft tissue, tendons and ligaments
putting horse at risk of sacrum damage
putting horse at risk of massive stifle/patellar damage
putting horse at risk of neurological damagethen I would expect to see the overwhelming majority of equine vets the world over to be raising holy hell ....not 'some vets' questioning the validity etc.

Obviously you have a much lower opinion of the veterinary profession than I have.

Fixerupper
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:18 AM
And, if you are a vet and you start linking training to lameness you may loose a lot of business because trainers dont see that as helpful but as interfering.


I would guess that would depend on how one presented it... "your horse is lame because you ride like sh**".... would probably cost one a few clients.

"Your horses all have massive stifle/patellar damage and I believe it may be associated with a particular training exercise" may very well be appreciated.....

spirithorse
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:30 AM
The majority of equine vets I have met in 40+ years do not understand muscle operating technology.

I will state, and am willing to demonstrate to FEI in front of any the governing body, that rolkur and ldr do as a material fact, create and maintain tetanic contractions in the horse.

I watched a 'well known' vet, renowned for his lameness research, discussing a new product he had invented to isolate lameness. When he trotted the mare she showed obvious shoulder lameness yet he said was lame in the foot and was oblivious to the shoulder problem.

I have numerous clients who depend upon my knowledge of the equine muscle system....Please see page 25 of the August issue of Equus....Edens Bay Rum is my client. I have repaired muscle injuries that [in all probability] appeared to have stopped his career.

So please stop with the vet retoric....there are some great equine vets who are aware of these things, gaining the knowledge through the individuals they know that do as I do.

Fixerupper
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:35 AM
How sad for you that you know more than all the vets you have worked with...I, myself, prefer to work with professionals that know more than I do...maybe it's where you are located?

spirithorse
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:38 AM
Ask your Veterinarian what an external induced tetanic contraction is?

mbm
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:39 AM
interesting that vets have been brought up.

question: where are the vets protesting the massive and ridiculaous drug usage over in hunterlanidia?

where are the vets over in walking horselandia?

how about the peanut rollers? where are their vets?

what i am getting at is that vets need to get paid too.... and i pretty much know that they WILL look the other way. it isnt their job to say anything... only to repair the damage.

have you ever talked to a vet and asked them, off the record if they EVER give training advice? the answer is NO!

plus, unless there are studies they will not say on the record much because it is heresy and speculation. doesn't mean they don't have their own ideas of what is going on....

excellent example: i was looking at some horses to purchase. one have had check ligament surgery at a young age - every vet i talked to "officially" said "no problem" , however those vets i know personally said "i would not buy such a horse, but we aren't supposed to say that" i got this answer from 3 different vets off the record!

Karoline
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:51 AM
'suggesting there may be damage being done' is also not fact - medical or otherwise

AS I have said every time I get into one of these 'discussions'....I have never said that I like/support/recommend RK/LDR

I simply object to the opinions that are being presented as facts.....

If the exercise were indeed ...and I quote...

slowly strangling the horse
damaging soft tissue, tendons and ligaments
putting horse at risk of sacrum damage
putting horse at risk of massive stifle/patellar damage
putting horse at risk of neurological damagethen I would expect to see the overwhelming majority of equine vets the world over to be raising holy hell ....not 'some vets' questioning the validity etc.

Obviously you have a much lower opinion of the veterinary profession than I have.

I see vets keep quiet even when they keep visiting the same barns and treating the same injuries. I have had this discussion with several vets locally and they feel it is not their place to comment. Another thought they have is that they can do more good overtime by being more neutral.

Personally I object to hearing again and again:

- my horse got cast
- my horse mistepped in the pasture
- my horse was sound yesterday, I dont know what happened (sub-acute to acute injury is what happened)
- Its a stone bruise
- It was my farrier, trainer, etc..'s fault - "they" did this or that. What about getting educated?
- Its not a matter of if but when a dressage horse will get hurt
- He was so good, I dont know why he does XYZ - absolute refusal to read the distress signal the horse is sending
- He is not very stoic
- Just give him 2 butes and ride

There are books that address the relationship between riding and lameness for example Udo Burgers, Hilary Clayton, Sara Wyche and GHeuschmann's. Dr.Bennett has a lot of information on her forum about it. A trainer with experience will know how the wrong tempo and posture can damage a horse. Its not rocket science a lot of it, it is common sense.

mbm
Aug. 31, 2010, 01:02 AM
gotta agree with Karoline - the more i learn about how the body works teh more i see why the rules are the rules and why correct training (from any school) works.

ThreeFigs
Aug. 31, 2010, 01:36 AM
But that's my opinion based on time spent studying vs. riders who are champions so my conclusion is that you should not listen to me, at best I can hope you pick up anatomy textbook if you have not already and then read, speak to your vet(s), observe. And then form your own conclusion.

As a matter of fact, my vet recommended LDR for a gelding I purchased. He had a back injury, and among other things, my very well-respected vet instructed me to ride this horse in the low & stretchy frame ONLY for the first two or three months of rehab. You see, my definition of LDR differs from yours. As does my vet's. So, you see, Karoline, I know plenty about anatomy and how LDR can actually benefit a horse. I can also see how RK is a bridge too far. Can you acknowledge that you condemn LDR the same as RK, even though they re NOT the same thing? Of course not. You are too committed to your dogma, your cult.

The horse, in case you're interested, is now healthy, his muscles over the back and hindquarters are beautifully restored, and he is light in the hand without EVER being behind the vertical or "RK'ed" as you might define it.

God almighty, I get sick of the people who cannot see the difference between LDR and RK. One is a gentle glider, the other is an aggresive fighter jet.

mbm
Aug. 31, 2010, 01:54 AM
BM - go blame th eFEI and probably Sjef for the RK=LDR fiasco.

i agree that *before* feb of this year LDR was not RK - but now it is. dont blame us!

(and if you need proof go visit that oh so friendly FB page "LDR are us" or whatever it is called. now there is some truly frightening stuff and will prove once and for all that nowadays LDR=RK)

indyblue
Aug. 31, 2010, 01:58 AM
Ask your Veterinarian what an external induced tetanic contraction is?

Did it. He said its what precedes an earthquake:lol:

ThreeFigs
Aug. 31, 2010, 02:07 AM
Yanno, I just use what works for my horse and for his benefit. I don't care what you want to call it. Y'all can continue to argue and debate about how many RK'ers can dance on the head of a pin. Meanwhile, my horse is restored to health and has not taken a bad step since I got him. So there!

Love it, indyblue! Earthquake!

Spirithorse, give up. You twist & misrepresent everything you read, hear or see. Go take some riding lessons. The fact that you are in the anti-RK camp undermines their position and destroys whatever credibility they think they have. They should drum you out of their ranks.

netg
Aug. 31, 2010, 02:26 AM
Ask your Veterinarian what an external induced tetanic contraction is?


Did it. He said its what precedes an earthquake:lol:

I asked my friend Google, who said it's a phrase which exists solely on this thread...

ThreeFigs
Aug. 31, 2010, 02:31 AM
:lol:

Coreene
Aug. 31, 2010, 02:46 AM
Did it. He said its what precedes an earthquake:lol:

Pfffffft. Obviously your vet is stupid, too. Everyone knows it is what comes right before an orgasmatron.

indyblue
Aug. 31, 2010, 03:06 AM
Well my vet does specialise in small rodents.......

Coreene
Aug. 31, 2010, 03:13 AM
Game, set and match to Indyblue! :yes: :lol:

mbm
Aug. 31, 2010, 03:37 AM
Yanno, I just use what works for my horse and for his benefit. I don't care what you want to call it. Y'all can continue to argue and debate about how many RK'ers can dance on the head of a pin. Meanwhile, my horse is restored to health and has not taken a bad step since I got him. So there!



i have no quarrel with riding with a lowered neck and i am glad your horse is doing better. i had no argument with LDR before it got to be the new name for RK/hyperflexion/wtf.

so..... like i said - dont blame us that RK now equals LDR - blame the FEI! it was done for the very good reason that folks with say "but LDR is not RK because i was told by my vet to do LDR for my horses sore back so there fore it cant be RK because i wouldn't do that to my horse".

in fact it was a *brilliant* marketing move by whomever.

anyway......

alicen
Aug. 31, 2010, 07:00 AM
I asked my friend Google, who said it's a phrase which exists solely on this thread...

Apparently, your friend google is deceiving you. http://www.google.com/#hl=en&rlz=1W1GGLG_en&q=tetanic+muscle+contraction&revid=1732407444&sa=X&ei=vtB8TPfwMYW4nged4r3BAQ&ved=0CD4Q1QIoADgo&fp=126db9ec799471bf

Bats79
Aug. 31, 2010, 08:15 AM
God almighty, I get sick of the people who cannot see the difference between LDR and RK. One is a gentle glider, the other is an aggresive fighter jet.

As far as I know LDR didn't exist until hyperflexion aka rollkur was renamed LDR to take away the bad image.

Prior to that you rode your horse

long and low, as close to the vertical as possible, but aiming for stretch and release,

in a working frame with the neck stretched as far as it could while the horse reached for the contact,

in as much collection as the horse was capable of with the poll the highest point,

overbent if the horse is being evasive or resistant or trying to escape or block and then back to

long and low.

Never rode in LDR in the past.

barnbum81
Aug. 31, 2010, 09:32 AM
As far as I know LDR didn't exist until hyperflexion aka rollkur was renamed LDR to take away the bad image.

Prior to that you rode your horse

long and low, as close to the vertical as possible, but aiming for stretch and release,

in a working frame with the neck stretched as far as it could while the horse reached for the contact,

in as much collection as the horse was capable of with the poll the highest point,

overbent if the horse is being evasive or resistant or trying to escape or block and then back to

long and low.

Never rode in LDR in the past.

:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::D

Fixerupper
Aug. 31, 2010, 09:48 AM
Apparently, your friend google is deceiving you. http://www.google.com/#hl=en&rlz=1W1GGLG_en&q=tetanic+muscle+contraction&revid=1732407444&sa=X&ei=vtB8TPfwMYW4nged4r3BAQ&ved=0CD4Q1QIoADgo&fp=126db9ec799471bf

I followed your link and I am upping
you one link :) (which by the by is a respected text book... 'Fundamentals of Anatomy and Physiology)

and from that link a quote!

[]Complete Tetanus Complete tetanus is obtained by increasing the stimulation rate until the relaxation phase is eliminated.
During complete tetanus, action potentials arrive so rapidly that the sarcoplasmic reticulum does not have time to reclaim the calcium ions. The high Ca2+ concentration in the cytoplasm prolongs the contraction state, making it continuous.

Virtually all normal muscular contractions involve complete tetanus of the participating muscle fibers.[]


(though indyblue's, netg's and Coreene's answers were way better and probably truer too :lol:)

Dressage Art
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:33 PM
As far as I know LDR didn't exist until hyperflexion aka rollkur was renamed LDR to take away the bad image.

Prior to that you rode your horse

long and low, as close to the vertical as possible, but aiming for stretch and release,

in a working frame with the neck stretched as far as it could while the horse reached for the contact,

in as much collection as the horse was capable of with the poll the highest point,

overbent if the horse is being evasive or resistant or trying to escape or block and then back to

long and low.

Never rode in LDR in the past.ditto.

Deep riding, Baucher flexions and RK: those 3 were there for many years. RK always had a negative image attached to it. So for the marketing PR spin, RK was renamed Hyperflexion and then renamed to LDR. From photos and videos it looks still the same. Now some riders claim that they no longer practice RK but they practice LDR.

Nobody to that day clearly showed how to make a difference between RK, Hyperflexion, and LDR from photos and videos. Several photos/videos next to each other clearly explaining the difference. If methods are so different, even a non educated eye should be able to see it easy.

So far renaming similar methods worked for groupies and publicity mostly. It’s very clear that thousands of equestrians still question the difference and put those methods in the same negatively controversial group. Telling those thousands that they are just uneducated idiots who can’t see the difference will continue to fail to work.

Ball is in the LDR court and LDR needs to convince thousands of equestrians how LDR is different from now banned by FEI RK. (comparing photos, videos, not just in words)

When FEI banned RK, I remember some said that it will not make a difference. Judging from Anky/Astrid lawsuit it already did.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:35 PM
I am perplexed by this question of LDR/rollkur destroying horses physically. Which are the destroyed horses? The ones everyone knows have performed internationally and excelled into their late teens. Rembrandt,Bonfire,Gigolo,Sal. We will get to see how well the new generation especially Totilas endures. Also the anti RK group seems to like Ravel but does not address that he was trained by Edward Gal before Peters. Certainly in the same way Totilas has been developed. Did Peters' sponsers purchase him because of his excellent preparation and development or in spite of his devastated body and bad LDR training? The post here by several seem to say these LDR trained horses should not be able to make it around the court sound, yet they look very good to me. And late into their lives. When horses trained in the modern school, and I mean high profile horses whose lives are closely observed start falling apart this should be readdressed! Until then I just dont get it.

ThreeFigs
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:38 PM
Sorry, variations of LDR existed long before the term Rollkur came into popular use.

I recall arguments about the technique used by (as I recall -- and my recollection could well be faulty) Isabell Werth and others whose names are evading my recollection. I think there were articles about/for/against the technique back in the 70's. I do NOT recall illustrtions or photos from those days of the extreme called RK, however. It was low, it was deep, it was round, but it wasn't that extreme.

I remember, because my instructor at the time remarked LDR (or whatever it was they were calling it then) was a technique ONLY for experts to use. It was as controversial then as it is now. Only the names and players have changed. Somehow, horses have continued to survive and thrive in spite of L&L, LDR, RK, headstands, whatever.

So call my rehab work with my horse (that was directed by my vet) long and low if you like. Call it a cab. I don't care.

So, Fixerupper, it sounds like tetanic contractions are perfectly normal? I think Spirithorse just likes to spew the term.He thinks it makes him sound speshul.

Karoline
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:39 PM
As a matter of fact, my vet recommended LDR for a gelding I purchased. He had a back injury, and among other things, my very well-respected vet instructed me to ride this horse in the low & stretchy frame ONLY for the first two or three months of rehab. You see, my definition of LDR differs from yours. As does my vet's. So, you see, Karoline, I know plenty about anatomy and how LDR can actually benefit a horse. I can also see how RK is a bridge too far. Can you acknowledge that you condemn LDR the same as RK, even though they re NOT the same thing? Of course not. You are too committed to your dogma, your cult.

The horse, in case you're interested, is now healthy, his muscles over the back and hindquarters are beautifully restored, and he is light in the hand without EVER being behind the vertical or "RK'ed" as you might define it.

God almighty, I get sick of the people who cannot see the difference between LDR and RK. One is a gentle glider, the other is an aggresive fighter jet.

Denoix and Pailloux do recommend deeper postures in some rehab situations and of course a rehab situation is NOT the same as an ongoing training technique. I would also venture that how you rode your horse was different then how Salinero is ridden per the videos and images available. I am glad your horse is back to wellness.

ginger708
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:42 PM
Spirithorse out of curiosity how many horses did you study that were ridden using rollkur for longer than 10 minutes in regular schooling warm ups schooled the regular 5 to 6 days a week for an hour to two hour period each day? And how was the control group of horses schooled for the same period of time? Also how many years did the study take place?

I would be really interested in reading your papers if this information could be provided. It would show that you did a non-biased study of a riding method that you feel is harmful to the horse and you have the scientific evidence to back it up.

mbm; How willing would you be to get a group together of concerned riders to fund such studies to prove your points instead of just going by what you see? From what you have posted here it seems that there are a lot of riders in your area that practice this method of riding hence no shortage of horses to study.

Beasmom since you have had success with LDR would you participate in such studies if it were geographically possible?

Actually to anyone here on the board if it was a perfect world and you had the ability to have your horse participate in a study about riding methods and the effects on structure of your would you be willing to participate?

Karoline
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:42 PM
ditto.

Deep riding, Baucher flexions and RK: those 3 were there for many years. RK always had a negative image attached to it. So for the PR spin, RK was renamed Hyperflexion and then renamed to LDR. From photos and videos it looks still the same. Now some riders claim that they no longer practice RK but they practice LDR.

Nobody to that day clearly showed how to make a difference between RK, Hyperflexion, and LDR from photos and videos. Several photos/videos next to each other clearly explaining the difference. If methods are so different, even a non educated eye should be able to see it easy.

So far renaming similar methods worked for groupies and publicity mostly. It’s very clear that thousands of equestrians still question the difference and put those methods in the same negatively controversial group. Telling those thousands that they are just uneducated idiots who can’t see the difference will continue to fail to work.

Ball is in the LDR court and LDR needs to convince thousands of equestrians how LDR is different from now banned by FEI RK. (looking at photos)

When FEI banned RK, I remember some said that it will not make a difference. Judging from Anky/Astrid lawsuit it already did.

LDR was the very first name of rollkur which then became Hyperflexion then LDR again. It was what Sjeff first named his technique.

sadlmakr
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:49 PM
Does this above mentioned styles, RK and LDR promote the graceful and proper riding techniques?
Some of the shows I last attended had horses way behind the perpendicular. Over bent and a bad looking picture of a death grip on the reins. Yet these horses were placed in the line-up in first, second and third places.
It reminds me of the Quarter Horses and their Peanut Rollers heads down to the ground look.
Why is this RK and LDR promoted? Does it show off the horse to his benefit?
Collection is not done by pulling the horse down to where his chin is on his chest.
Is this just another passing fad?
I am not showing in this field but I do go to watch the trials and watch what is getting placed where.
What about going back to the basics?
I am probably being nieve as an observer but I see so much being done in lots of the Horse oriented sports that make me wonder what is going to develope in the future.
Does the fact that a well known name in this sport does it, make it right?
I know I am probably out of touch with the new things in these sports but I am looking at it from the on-looker's view point.
This JMHO, so don't throw shoes at me.
sadlmakr

ThreeFigs
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:57 PM
Karoline, of COURSE I rode my horse differently than Sal was ridden!

His posture was not in the least extreme, but the anti-RK types would probably have apoplectic fits anyhow, because there were certainly times when his poll was lower than his withers. This was recommended both by my vet and a highly-regarded judge/BNT. We all understood this was a temporary rehabbing technique. At no time were the horse's hind end or hind legs restricted, or otherwise limited in their movement. In fact, as his back lifted and he gained mobility and strength in his back/loin/SI, his hind legs became more engaged, they bent more in the joints, and he was able to step under himself and swing. It was a long time coming. It took a year before we were out of the woods.

When I first got him, he dragged his hind toes and could not track up. He was truly crippled behind the saddle. Putting him in the extreme RK position would have damaged him further and would indeed have served to limit his hind legs and development over the back. On this we can agree. I think as a jumper he had probably been ridden that way, or in draw reins. However, I hasten to add that his injury was from trauma, suffered during his flight from Germany, not something brought on from RK.

Really, people, there are variations in positioning and various degrees of "deep/low/round/stretchy/whatever". I used the milder forms of LDR, but I would still CALL it LDR. Once the horse was back to health, LDR was no longer needed.

Good for Denoix and Pailloux for recommending deeper postures for rehab. Good for you for citing their opinions, too!

Dressage Art
Aug. 31, 2010, 12:58 PM
LDR was the very first name of rollkur which then became Hyperflexion then LDR again. It was what Sjeff first named his technique.
I think RK was there even before Sjef's time. Centuries ago it was popular for sidesaddle riding to give more control to hands, since it gives pulley effect.

What year Sjef came up with LDR? And how Sjef differentiated his LDR technique from RK? Why he allowed for many years the confusion on photos and videos that he rides/teaches RK?

What are the examples (photos/videos) of RK, the kind of RK that was banned by FEI? Why there is still a mass confusion even by educated and experienced equestrians what is LDR and what is RK on photos and videos?

ginger708
Aug. 31, 2010, 01:14 PM
Does this above mentioned styles, RK and LDR promote the graceful and proper riding techniques?
Some of the shows I last attended had horses way behind the perpendicular. Over bent and a bad looking picture of a death grip on the reins. Yet these horses were placed in the line-up in first, second and third places.
It reminds me of the Quarter Horses and their Peanut Rollers heads down to the ground look.
Why is this RK and LDR promoted? Does it show off the horse to his benefit?
Collection is not done by pulling the horse down to where his chin is on his chest.
Is this just another passing fad?
I am not showing in this field but I do go to watch the trials and watch what is getting placed where.
What about going back to the basics?
I am probably being nieve as an observer but I see so much being done in lots of the Horse oriented sports that make me wonder what is going to develope in the future.
Does the fact that a well known name in this sport does it, make it right?
I know I am probably out of touch with the new things in these sports but I am looking at it from the on-looker's view point.
This JMHO, so don't throw shoes at me.
sadlmakr

No shoe throwing here you bring up good points. I think in any sport where the visual beauty is judge along side requirements that are out lined in ruled provided by a governing body the sport will be subject to "fads". This happened in the quarter horse world with the peanut rollers for a while that was what was getting the scores, then it was not. In halter a few years ago you would see Quarter horses that looked like they were on steroids with little tiny feet, that seems to be changing now. It happens in things like figure skating, Snowboarding, Skateboarding, Etc. Right now in our sport flash seems to be important at the international competing arena. And lets face it even some of our amateur really nice warmbloods are not going to flash as much as Totalias or Salarnio and who knows if our amateur or local level professionals horses could stand up to that level of training.


Some of the shows I last attended had horses way behind the perpendicular. Over bent and a bad looking picture of a death grip on the reins.

This may not be from rollkur this could just be the best riding of that day. As shows get smaller you will be surprised at what is getting first place. In dressage it is not the ribbon it's the points if there are only three people in a class and the best rider is a 40 percenter than guess who gets the blue. Also you have to remember that the score is based of many movements depending on the test. Then you have the horse and rider coefficients. So again the rider could have been marked down for the horse being over bent and behind the bit , but they could have done other things really well.

egontoast
Aug. 31, 2010, 02:07 PM
wow. I confess I haven't read everything on this thread because it does not really apply to my riding and training but I just wanted to point out that a few years ago people were crucified on some of the discussion boards and especially the UDBB for riding even a little bit deep in a warmup.

It was considered OMG sacriligious and a criminal act if a horse's nose ever strayed from the vertical ( downwards, not upwards because stargazing with back down was considered fine, up and open and klassikal doncha know)

So now it appears that many people and the FEI are a little more understanding of how gymnastic training works and that keeping the horse in any one frame is counterproductive to suppleness and balance.

But still we see the finger pointing and name calling.

Look, no one is making you ride your horse too deep or abusively or whatever you think is happening out there in the Big Leagues just like no one is making you step on other people's heads to get to the top iin your real life job.

The conspiracy theories are awfully silly because they can't affect you AT ALL unless you want them to.

Except for mbm and pals who are obviously goin to the lympix.

alicen
Aug. 31, 2010, 04:24 PM
.

So, Fixerupper, it sounds like tetanic contractions are perfectly normal? I think Spirithorse just likes to spew the term.He thinks it makes him sound speshul.

Not Fixerupper, but no. Nothing normal about tetanic contractions. What is questionable is whether the rollkur position could cause them. What is more questionable is that any of the horses in question have exhibited them. What probably is more questionable yet is spirithorse's having witnessed an international rollkured horse in tetanic contraction.

Fixerupper
Aug. 31, 2010, 04:51 PM
Not Fixerupper, but no. Nothing normal about tetanic contractions.

Hey I didn't make that up Alicen!
...you posted a link....I followed it to a link on that very page... which (as I pointed out) happens to be a physiology text book by a respected author which explains a part of the physiology of muscle contraction. Don't point me in a direction and then tell me I'm going the wrong way :lol:

I think you (and possibly spirithorse) are confusing it with tetany (caused by calcium deficiency or impaired calcium metabolism) or tetanus (caused by a clostridium bacteria) - diseases unrelated to muscle fatigue, I might add.



What is questionable is whether the rollkur position could cause them. What is more questionable is that any of the horses in question have exhibited them. What probably is more questionable yet is spirithorse's having witnessed an international rollkured horse in tetanic contraction.

this, on the other hand, is insightful and well put....:winkgrin:

alicen
Aug. 31, 2010, 05:28 PM
Fixerupper, I think we're mis-communicating on the first part of my post. Sorry, if I wasn't clear. I appreciated your chemically based post and fully understand the difference between between tetanus and tetanic contractions although the later can be a symptom of the former.


Holy moly! spirithorse is all over the web about tetanic contractions. There are oodles of folks just willy nilly tossing this term around. Perhaps they are confused with the equine parasites who do indeed experience chemically induced tetanic contractions:
"Praziquantel is a synthetic isoquinoline-pyrazine derivative with activity against several trematode and cestode parasites. In vitro and in vivo studies indicate that trematodes and cestodes rapidly take up praziquantel and that its effect on calcium cation flux across membranes result in tetanic contraction of the parasites’ musculature and vacuolization of the tegument. The net effect is that the parasite becomes paralyzed and detaches from the host. The wide margin of safety of praziquantel is attributable to its rapid metabolism and excretion, as well as its selective effect on susceptible parasites."

spirithorse
Aug. 31, 2010, 06:07 PM
Fixerupper and others:
Get a grip on reality....
the word tetanic does not just apply to the tetanus virus......nor to any parasite...

tetanic contraction sustained muscular contraction without intervals of relaxation

These are recognized and standardized meanings in medical fields including equine..........

hyperflexion (hy-per-flek-shon) n. excessive and forceful flexion of a limb or other part.

"hyperflexion." A Dictionary of Nursing. 2008. Retrieved April 23, 2010 from Encyclopedia.com: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O62-hyperflexion.html (http://www.chronofhorse.com/doc/1O62-hyperflexion.html)
American Psychological Association
http://apastyle.apa.org
 
spasm, muscle,
n the increased muscular tension and shortness that cannot be released voluntarily and prevents lengthening of the muscles involved. Caused by pain stimuli to the lower motor neurons.
Mosby's Dental Dictionary, 2nd edition. © 2008 Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.
contraction a
drawing together; a shortening or shrinkage.

tetanic contraction sustained muscular contraction without intervals of relaxation. When tetanized, the contracting tension in the muscle remains constant in a steady state (http://www.chronofhorse.com/wiki/Steady_state). This is the maximal contraction.
Dorland's Medical Dictionary for Health Consumers. © 2007 by Saunders, an imprint of Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.

hypersensitization
n the process of rendering abnormally sensitive or the condition of being abnormally sensitive.
Mosby's Dental Dictionary, 2nd edition. © 2008 Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.
 
 

Fixerupper
Aug. 31, 2010, 06:19 PM
oh I like this game - it's kind of like scrabble isn't it?

tetanic contraction does not mean the same thing as muscle spasm....

your turn :)

netg
Aug. 31, 2010, 06:25 PM
Apparently, your friend google is deceiving you. http://www.google.com/#hl=en&rlz=1W1GGLG_en&q=tetanic+muscle+contraction&revid=1732407444&sa=X&ei=vtB8TPfwMYW4nged4r3BAQ&ved=0CD4Q1QIoADgo&fp=126db9ec799471bf

Nope - I went for the whole phrase SH said to ask about. :)

External induced tetanic contraction (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=%22external+induced+tetanic+contraction%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=)

As for it all - I have absolutely no idea if ldr/rk/hyperflexion is harmful in general. I know my horse who used to voluntarily curl his neck up when I got him had soreness in his neck where he overbent it, which related to his carriage and soreness elsewhere. No one was forcing him to do that, but he was holding tension in and that caused the soreness. Which to me more indicates the "don't keep your horse in one position" and "keep your horse relaxed" are correct, rather than "RK is evil" - even if RK isn't something I particularly like. I think extreme arguments on either side tend to miss out on the individuality of horses and riders and what works for different individuals in different situations.

spirithorse
Aug. 31, 2010, 06:30 PM
No control group is necessary. I have knowledge of the required equipment that will produce scientific evidence in any arena, right before the eyes of an audience, riders, owners and Veterinarians.
The scientific evidence will be actual data gathered regarding stress pressures, impact forces, thermography and gait analysis of the ridden horse in a controled trot gait, over a controlled surface, for a controlled distance. First pass is done at the rider's discretion, the second pass is done after changes are made to the rider's aids. A third pass can be done with equipment change.

Before the horse is allowed to participate it is palpated in the required locations so that after the final pass a subsequent palpation can be done.

I have been doing myotherapy for over twenty years and the amount of horses is probably nearly a thousand.

Rolkur/ldr is not a dressage and/or English way of schooling it is also very predominate in the western way of schooling.

The observer of western classes can easily see the results because the horses cannot move forward off the hindquarter, they are heavy on the forehand, the forehand strides are short, then hindquarter strides are short, the back is hollow, and the horses cannot carry their in the "natural" position as required by the rules which state the poll shall be no lower than the withers.

If a horse is actually using a fully engaged hindquarter, the hind shoes will display 'heavy' wear....the hind hoof will land at or usually in front of the front hoof placement.

[quote=ginger708;5065027]Spirithorse out of curiosity how many horses did you study that were ridden using rollkur for longer than 10 minutes in regular schooling warm ups schooled the regular 5 to 6 days a week for an hour to two hour period each day? And how was the control group of horses schooled for the same period of time? Also how many years did the study take place?quote]

spirithorse
Aug. 31, 2010, 06:32 PM
A TETANIC CONTRACTION IS WHERE THE MUSCLE IS NOT ALLOWED TO RETURN TO NORMAL.........
DAH!!!!


oh I like this game - it's kind of like scrabble isn't it?

tetanic contraction does not mean the same thing as muscle spasm....

your turn :)

alicen
Aug. 31, 2010, 06:55 PM
A TETANIC CONTRACTION IS WHERE THE MUSCLE IS NOT ALLOWED TO RETURN TO NORMAL.........
DAH!!!!

Correct, but it is caused by a bio-chemical pathology of the efferent nerve impulses, not the muscles. The contraction is the symptom not the cause.

alicen
Aug. 31, 2010, 07:11 PM
Nope - I went for the whole phrase SH said to ask about.

Ahhhh, so!

Dressage Art
Aug. 31, 2010, 07:11 PM
But still we see the finger pointing and name calling....

Except for mbm and pals who are obviously goin to the lympix.

Yes Ms. Kettle :lol:

Fixerupper
Aug. 31, 2010, 07:25 PM
A TETANIC CONTRACTION IS WHERE THE MUSCLE IS NOT ALLOWED TO RETURN TO NORMAL.........
DAH!!!!

no...I think the word you are looking for is contracture....you can look it up in Dorlands as I notice you are a fan.

ginger708
Aug. 31, 2010, 07:54 PM
No control group is necessary. I have knowledge of the required equipment that will produce scientific evidence in any arena, right before the eyes of an audience, riders, owners and Veterinarians.

If you do not have a control group how can you prove with out a doubt that the equipment is giving you evidence of the damage that LDR or Rollkur is causing and not just an athletic in regular work? Horses in regular training can get sore even though you are training in the most humane way possible. Soreness can come from many places how can you just distinguish just one cause with this equipment?


The scientific evidence will be actual data gathered regarding stress pressures, impact forces, thermography and gait analysis of the ridden horse in a controled trot gait, over a controlled surface, for a controlled distance. First pass is done at the rider's discretion, the second pass is done after changes are made to the rider's aids. A third pass can be done with equipment change.

One again how can you prove long term damage and where it came from with just one day's worth data in a controlled environment? International horses travel all over the world are ridden on many different surfaces, the stress of travel and work could be enough to cause pain or muscle soreness. This is where all of the of the arguments against Rollkur fall apart. With out being able to prove that the damage done comes directly from rollkur and not other extenuating circumstances? It is going to be very hard to prove to open minded people that there is a problem with this training.

I guess that now would be a good time to say that I do not use Rollkur or LDR for that matter and I don't know if there would ever be a situation where I would. It's just not my cup of tea. Really there is just as much evidence that this is a successful method as there is that this method is breaking horse down. However, I am a fan of good solid research and testing of theroy's. And even though it could be argued that Anky's horses could move just as nicely with or with out rollkur unfortunately Anky's show scores are more black and white than all of the rhetoric that is so far unproven from the anti rollkur crowd.


Before the horse is allowed to participate it is palpated in the required locations so that after the final pass a subsequent palpation can be done.

I assuming you would be using a typical lameness exam? or are there special palpitations that would be just for this study? If you using non traditional are they medically approved?


I have been doing myotherapy for over twenty years and the amount of horses is probably nearly a thousand.

The thing is that unless you have been collecting data that can be verified by an unbiased source then the number doesn't really matter.


Rolkur/ldr is not a dressage and/or English way of schooling it is also very predominate in the western way of schooling.

The observer of western classes can easily see the results because the horses cannot move forward off the hindquarter, they are heavy on the forehand, the forehand strides are short, then hindquarter strides are short, the back is hollow, and the horses cannot carry their in the "natural" position as required by the rules which state the poll shall be no lower than the withers.

Could it also be argued that quarter horse are traditionally breed to be down hill with more slop to their hind. That is why quarter horses are considered to be a non-traditional breed for a dressage horse. Also most western disciplines you are not training for the horse to put it's weight on it hind. When I was a kid riding barrels we just wanted to go fast and we wanted them to lean in to the barrel for a tighter turn. However I do not remember seeing what you describe above in western classes that I have seen. And the two reiners that were at the barn that I worked at last year move very nicely it was not dressage but it was not static and hallow either.


If a horse is actually using a fully engaged hindquarter, the hind shoes will display 'heavy' wear....the hind hoof will land at or usually in front of the front hoof placement.

That may be true but it is also true that the traveling show horse will also show a lot of wear on shoes and hoofs. All of the horses that I have ridden may have started the show season barefoot but ended it in shoes. I don't think that hoof wear alone can be an indicator of proper or improper riding.

mbm
Aug. 31, 2010, 07:55 PM
i wonder what the world would be like if everyone just shut up and minded their own business no matter what was going on...... my guess is we would not be here today since the human race would of probably gone a totally different direction if those in charge were allowed to do what they want with no worry about repercussions.

i know there are some that think that would be a really awesome world... but not me and i actually shudder to think there are those that think that is a good way to go thru life.

everyone has the right to voice their opinion and fight for whatever they believe in. the key is to have something you believe in enough to fight for.

ginger708
Aug. 31, 2010, 08:37 PM
i wonder what the world would be like if everyone just shut up and minded their own business no matter what was going on...... my guess is we would not be here today since the human race would of probably gone a totally different direction if those in charge were allowed to do what they want with no worry about repercussions.

What in particular is Anky in charge of that has any bearing on you or the human race? Are you comparing the sport of dressage to say the human rights movement? If so I think that you are doing your cause more harm than good to your cause.


i know there are some that think that would be a really awesome world... but not me and i actually shudder to think there are those that think that is a good way to go thru life.

I will not put words into the mouth of other posters but don't you think it is a little far fetched that just because someone is not ready to running blindly in to a direction that you are, that they are blind to the horrors of the world around them? And should a riding technique be put in such a category? And how are people ignoring a problem if the are asking to prove that rollkur is a problem. Just because something is not pleasing to your eye does not make it wrong.


everyone has the right to voice their opinion and fight for whatever they believe in. the key is to have something you believe in enough to fight for.

I choose to fight for a lot of things and one of them is proof before the witch hunt. You know the Salem witch trials was a horrible tragedy that could of been prevented if people worked more from fact and less from emotions and jealousy.

betonbill
Aug. 31, 2010, 09:57 PM
I'm generally staying out of these kinds of discussions, but every time one of them starts up the same little question keeps intruding into my head.

Hypothetically, WHAT IF...

RK or its equivalent had been developed right here in the good old U.S. of A. and we were winning gazillions of world championships and Olympic medals with it and beating the socks off of the European riders--would we be having this conversation??

If RK or its equivalent had been developed by some little podunk country that nobody ever heard of, would we be having this conversation?

If RK or its equivalent had been developed by (name your country), but it didn't really work, would we be having this conversation?

Or is it because on some levels it seems to work that we are having this conversation??

siegi b.
Aug. 31, 2010, 10:01 PM
Ginger708 - you make way too much sense for the average poster on this thread.

I'm with you 100%!!!!

4xhoof
Aug. 31, 2010, 10:03 PM
i wonder what the world would be like if everyone just shut up and minded their own business no matter what was going on...... my guess is we would not be here today since the human race would of probably gone a totally different direction if those in charge were allowed to do what they want with no worry about repercussions.

i know there are some that think that would be a really awesome world... but not me and i actually shudder to think there are those that think that is a good way to go thru life.

everyone has the right to voice their opinion and fight for whatever they believe in. the key is to have something you believe in enough to fight for.

I agree, I think it is good to fight for what you believe in but I also think that some who push for their position do so for some personal gain, not the big picture.

I would like to see the credentials of people who are critical of vets, MDs, etc. to validate their arguement. It is hard to support someone who lacks credentials or is not willing to show their credentials in the area they are fighting for.

Case is point is this debate about tetanic contractions. Just because someone says they have 20+ years of experience in myotherapy does not mean they have been officially trained and licensed in that area. Where is the credential? Even massage therapists have credentials like CMT. Most states require a person to be licensed with the state to practice any type of body work on human or animal. Is this the case here? You can look up a persons licensure with the state. Just go to the states goverment site and usually it is under verify license.

ginger708
Aug. 31, 2010, 10:37 PM
I'm generally staying out of these kinds of discussions, but every time one of them starts up the same little question keeps intruding into my head.

Hypothetically, WHAT IF...

RK or its equivalent had been developed right here in the good old U.S. of A. and we were winning gazillions of world championships and Olympic medals with it and beating the socks off of the European riders--would we be having this conversation??

I would hope so. I still believe that before something is banned outright that people would take the time to study and see whether or not it works or does not work. I think it would speak to poor character of the people that oppose rollkur if they said it was ok because it's American.


If RK or its equivalent had been developed by some little podunk country that nobody ever heard of, would we be having this conversation?

I think this question is almost similar to "a tree falling in the woods question" If we never heard of rollkur or if it was never seen how would any one know it exists?

This points to a really good point and question. If Anky is so evil and hateful and rollkur so super cruel why would she use it in public? Why not keep it in the barn? I believe that Anky thinks that she is doing something beneficial for the horse that gets her results.


If RK or its equivalent had been developed by (name your country), but it didn't really work, would we be having this conversation?

Probably not, because if it didn't work to some degree I don't think that we would see it. It reminds me of another thread where people were talking about using a pelham for training a dressage horse. I am completely opposed to this for my own reasons.

However there were people that were having success using it as a transition between snaffle to double bridle. And others were having success with draft crosses and full drafts to give them the more leverage that they needed when riding. The pelham is not allowed in competition or in warm up but it is a tool that some trainers have found success with it so its use hangs around.


Or is it because on some levels it seems to work that we are having this conversation??

As I said in a previous post the anti-rollkur crowd so far are speaking in theories based in emotions and what they do not like to see visually. Anky has the scores fro all over the world to say that this method is producing a horse that the judges like. However there are riders that are having success as well that are not using rollkur or LDR of whatever.

spirithorse
Aug. 31, 2010, 11:47 PM
Credentials do not mean knowledge, it means book learning. Horse people are always asking their friends, trainers, etc, for knowledge, answers and the majority of these folks are just plain average folks, with out 'credentials'.

The trigger point therapy equine schools are training individuals who are credentialed, yet cannot repair a horse's muscle injury. Equine massage schools do the same thing, and massage is not a remedy for actual muscle injury.

My client Rum has recently did a hyper-extension of the left rear during a slip. I started working in the front of the hip where the majority of the injury lays. His vet was out and said I was correct and even acknowledged the hyper-extension was in the hamstring......

Get a grip with reality folks, look at the credentialed medical doctors who are ravaging the human species......

I will put my knowledgeof muscle injury up against any credentialed vet in the world........



I would like to see the credentials of people who are critical of vets, MDs, etc. to validate their arguement. It is hard to support someone who lacks credentials or is not willing to show their credentials in the area they are fighting for.

Case is point is this debate about tetanic contractions. Just because someone says they have 20+ years of experience in myotherapy does not mean they have been officially trained and licensed in that area. Where is the credential? Even massage therapists have credentials like CMT. Most states require a person to be licensed with the state to practice any type of body work on human or animal. Is this the case here? You can look up a persons licensure with the state. Just go to the states goverment site and usually it is under verify license.

ThreeFigs
Aug. 31, 2010, 11:51 PM
:lol::lol::lol:

Oh, Spirithorse, you're so funny!

spirithorse
Aug. 31, 2010, 11:52 PM
:D yep fer shure :lol::lol::lol::lol:

mbm
Sep. 1, 2010, 01:11 AM
for the person that wondered if "we" would be upset is the US had made up rollkur etc.

??? the question is silly. it isnt about nationalism! that so has nothing to do with it.

in fact i am a USian by birth, someone else i know is French, another Russian, another mexican ( i believe) and another german. plus, dont forget about the folks all over teh world that also believe rollkur sux.

believe me it is not a US thing.

indyblue
Sep. 1, 2010, 03:06 AM
Hi Spirithorse. First of all let me just say that I am not pro-rolkur but I am pro-crediantials. Let me ask you this . If say you had a really serious root canal that needed doing, would you :

a. Look for the best dentist you could afford who had finished medical school and had years of known pratice?

b. Use a guy you met on the internet who didn't believe that medical school was needed and didn't believe in credentials but felt he was the best dentist in the world?

This applies to finding a tradesman, a pilot (:eek:) and so on. The FEI will want to see credentials or no one will take the study seriously.Im sorry but thats a fact.

ToN Farm
Sep. 1, 2010, 10:15 AM
On the subject of credentials (formal education?), I think they are important for some things, and not necessarily for others.

I think it's likely that Spirithorse does have more insight into equine muscular problems than most vets and probably even most so-called equine massage therapists that get their training from some short course.

One can become quite educated by doing their own reading and research. They can become specialized in one area that way.

I have interest in this area because I think a lot of resistances of horses stem from muscle/nerve pain.

siegi b.
Sep. 1, 2010, 10:26 AM
I'm sorry, but to me educated and knowledgeable sort of go hand in hand. That's why (right or wrong) I have a problem the minute I see these big issues being addressed by people that can't spell worth a darn.

If you want to be taken seriously then I strongly recommend you pay a little more attention to your grammar and spelling.

Just my opinion.... (and I'm a foreigner!) :)

ThreeFigs
Sep. 1, 2010, 10:49 AM
Read through Spirithorse's website and you'll see just how "educated" he is. He advocates riders centering themselves over the 17th/18th thoracic vertebrae, for instance.

He is not to be taken seriously.

Fixerupper
Sep. 1, 2010, 12:07 PM
yes I see now....
it is an...umm....rather interesting take on anatomy and ....other things
:)

mbm
Sep. 1, 2010, 12:08 PM
I'm sorry, but to me educated and knowledgeable sort of go hand in hand. That's why (right or wrong) I have a problem the minute I see these big issues being addressed by people that can't spell worth a darn.

If you want to be taken seriously then I strongly recommend you pay a little more attention to your grammar and spelling.

Just my opinion.... (and I'm a foreigner!) :)

i haven't been able to spell correctly since i was a tested at the age of 6! and do you know what that testing indicated? that my cognitive skills, math, etc etc were all very very high, but my spelling sucked. the suggestion was that i should be a scientist or doctor!

lol!

(true story)

egontoast
Sep. 1, 2010, 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by egontoast
But still we see the finger pointing and name calling....

Except for mbm and pals who are obviously goin to the lympix.


posted by Dressahje art

Yes Ms. Kettle :lol:
__________________

That is quite hilarious coming from you, Dressage Art, especially for those of us who remember your history of WAY over the top vicious nasty and impaired postings.


Hi Spirithorse. First of all let me just say that I am not pro-rolkur but I am pro-crediantials. Let me ask you this . If say you had a really serious root canal that needed doing, would you :

a. Look for the best dentist you could afford who had finished medical school and had years of known pratice?

b. Use a guy you met on the internet who didn't believe that medical school was needed and didn't believe in credentials but felt he was the best dentist in the world?



Very well put.

Dressage Art
Sep. 1, 2010, 12:56 PM
That is quite hilarious coming from you, Dressage Art, especially for those of us who remember your history of WAY over the top vicious nasty and impaired postings.

Yes, Ms. Kettle.

egontoast
Sep. 1, 2010, 01:02 PM
:lol::lol::lol: Hello pot.

Dressage Art
Sep. 1, 2010, 01:08 PM
finally, you found your lost humor for today :lol: see ... no need to be viciously nasty

siegi b.
Sep. 1, 2010, 02:37 PM
mbm - at the age of 6 I would expect anybody's spelling to "suck"..... The trick is to learn it by going to school.

And Beasmom - not to worry, I could never take our dear spirithorse seriously. Me thinks he's suffering from tetanic contractions, and they're not in his neck! :)

ginger708
Sep. 1, 2010, 02:49 PM
The thing with spirithorse is that he may be very knowledgeable in what he does with a horse physically. I am leery of going to his web site because I may not like what I read an for this discussion I am willing to give him the benefit if the doubt.

There is a reason for scientific protocol when you are doing a study or you are keeping records of horses that you have worked on especially if you are trying to establish a new theory or therapeutic technique. These records and data will one prove that you are just not making things up as you are going along, but it allows other professionals clearly understand your theory and how you are reaching your conclusions then they can they to recreate your success on other horses with similar problems thus validating your original theory.

I really don't think you are going to prove anything new about how a horses muscular structure works. That has been solidly proven and well mapped. But you may have a technique via muscle manipulation that may help injured horses, it's too bad that you do not have your correctly collected data to prove it. Learning scientific protocol for conducting a study comes from going to school, you can learn it from books and if you do it well I think people can forgive a lack of credentials.

spirithorse
Sep. 1, 2010, 03:13 PM
"I really don't think you are going to prove anything new about how a horses muscular structure works. That has been solidly proven and well mapped."

This is a false statement to make. I have spent hours and hours in researching any available scientific study papers on equine muscle structure and injuries. To date, each study paper has referenced the fact that there still remains inadequate data available.

The RIRS is designed with protocal that will scientifically produce working data, not clinical data, regarding the impact upon the horse induced by the rider, the equipment, and the schooling methods used.

I state unequivically that I have, do, and will continue to produce working results that verify my knowledge of the equine muscle structure.

suzy
Sep. 1, 2010, 03:24 PM
mbm - at the age of 6 I would expect anybody's spelling to "suck"..... The trick is to learn it by going to school.

And Beasmom - not to worry, I could never take our dear spirithorse seriously. Me thinks he's suffering from tetanic contractions, and they're not in his neck! :)

Well, that's not exactly right. There are certain words that the average 6 year old can spell correctly. As much as I despise typos and misspellings, two of the most intelligent people I know (both went to schools for gifted children) are horrendous spellers (e.g. "suddle" for "subtle" and so on).

But totally agree with second paragraph. LOL

Coreene
Sep. 1, 2010, 04:34 PM
he's suffering from tetanic contractions, and they're not in his neck! :)Oh sure, turn this into a porn site!

ginger708
Sep. 1, 2010, 04:45 PM
"I really don't think you are going to prove anything new about how a horses muscular structure works. That has been solidly proven and well mapped."

This is a false statement to make. I have spent hours and hours in researching any available scientific study papers on equine muscle structure and injuries. To date, each study paper has referenced the fact that there still remains inadequate data available.

The RIRS is designed with protocal that will scientifically produce working data, not clinical data, regarding the impact upon the horse induced by the rider, the equipment, and the schooling methods used.

I state unequivically that I have, do, and will continue to produce working results that verify my knowledge of the equine muscle structure.

I think that we will have to agree to disagree on that one. However even if you are right and I am wrong you still have to present your theories and finding in the organized manner of the scientific community to be taken seriously.

If what you are finding through your work is true, then why would you not want to share it with the scientific community so it can be tested and your theories proven to be correct. Your techniques could get out to the horse community and help people and horses in need.

Oh and I read your out line for the study that you do want to conduct and I have some notes that might help you out in getting funding if you are interested.

siegi b.
Sep. 1, 2010, 07:01 PM
Coreene..... you crack me up! :lol:

Gaia
Sep. 2, 2010, 10:51 AM
Some people in Europe are talking:

http://epona.tv/uk/news/show/artikel/blue-tongue-video-faq/

And the Danish are not a new dressage nation. Their horses are top quality too.

mbm
Sep. 2, 2010, 12:46 PM
Some people in Europe are talking:

http://epona.tv/uk/news/show/artikel/blue-tongue-video-faq/

And the Danish are not a new dressage nation. Their horses are top quality too.

good article. but i wonder: did they ever submit that footage to the FEI re: patrick kittel? and if not do they realize that they are asking folks to do what they themselves will not? (post the entire video for all to see) because they did not give the FEI the video Kittle got off scott free.

hmmmm.....

egontoast
Sep. 2, 2010, 01:16 PM
because they did not give the FEI the video Kittle got off scott free.


Scott free for what? Are you accusing him of deliberately abusing his horse? Are you calling him a liar?

siegi b.
Sep. 2, 2010, 03:11 PM
Sorry, but believing what you read or see on Epona.TV is like looking for truth in the Enquirer.

Both have an agenda... namely to stir up the masses with their hyperbole in order to get readers/members/dues.

MelantheLLC
Sep. 2, 2010, 07:36 PM
Speaking of "the deads"...Just can't stay away, can you Theo? Just keeps coming back hunting for reasons to get its little knickies in a twist because the name Anky was mentioned.

caddym
Sep. 2, 2010, 07:59 PM
It is my understanding that AA's riding experience is limited to being Belguim champion for New Forest Ponies in 1992 (please correct me if I am wrong).

Her photographs are lovely - she should stick to photos and facts

mbm
Sep. 2, 2010, 09:33 PM
Scott free for what? Are you accusing him of deliberately abusing his horse? Are you calling him a liar?

scott free is probably the wrong term, but yes, what was shown in those videos was really really ugly riding - and clearly the FEI thought so too - why else send him a warning letter re: how to warm up correctly?

as for a liar - i have no idea.

epona said they have x number of minutes of footae but refused to supply more than 10 minutes to the FEI - becuase of this the FEI refused to even spank kittel.

now epona wants us to go video warmups and post them in their entirety on youtube. yet they themselves would not do this.

that is what i am asking about.

you guys seem to think that those that are (actively working) against rollkur etc are all of the same mind like little robots - but that is so not true!

mbm
Sep. 2, 2010, 09:39 PM
It is my understanding that AA's riding experience is limited to being Belguim champion for New Forest Ponies in 1992 (please correct me if I am wrong).

Her photographs are lovely - she should stick to photos and facts

so now there is a requirement that a journalist/reporter must be a current olympic rider?

those poor riders sure aren't going to have much time for riding since they and only they are supposed to ride/train/judge/talk/opine/make rules/enforce the rules/ blah blah blah!

siegi b.
Sep. 2, 2010, 09:54 PM
mbm - I get the distinct impression that you spend 80% of your waking hours on this BB..... Do you know what a life is? :)

mbm
Sep. 2, 2010, 10:16 PM
mmmhhmmm .... just about as much time as you darlin'..... your post count says you post 1.26 posts per day, and i post 1.24 posts per day....

maybe we *both* need to get a life ?:)

honestly tho - over the last few weeks i have spent more time here - broken ribs and a lull in work. good news? ribs are better, and so is work!

you?

Dressage Art
Sep. 2, 2010, 10:32 PM
Stupid Anky...... All these St George clones like EpanoTV, Sustainable Dressage and Eurodressage were almost bancrupt and then she start a courtcase. Did you watch the music clip from Michael Jackson called Thriller . :cool: Thanks... Anky the deads are returning again !

Boy, must be something in the air, b/c I kind of agree with that... I think Anky would off been better without the lawsuit. This lawsuit will put the spot light on the difference between RK and LDR and polarize opinions even more. Now it’s Anky who demands a clear difference between RK and LDR!!! It also shows that Anky cares a lot about opinion of masses and doesn't want to be thought of as the one using the aggressive and banned by FEI riding technique such as RK. But all of the old videos and photos will come up and I wonder how that will be beneficial for Anky and S?

escondi
Sep. 3, 2010, 01:25 AM
I'm late to this. I think so many love controversy and possible scandal. Many have grown tired of soap operas. What we see here is the beginning of the equine competition reality shows.

So, Anky's the star in real competition and she's the star in this new world of reality equine competition.

You all have created this. This is not horseshit. This is human shit at its worst.

To the Rolllllllkurrrristas here, may I ask for the good stuff?

mbm
Sep. 3, 2010, 02:01 AM
erm, no. the FEI created this by not judging to its rules, then by trying to make it all better by changing the name (several times) and calling ethe old words "abusive " and "banned" .... so that now anyone who links AVG with her own method, but called by its old unhorse friendly name can be sued.

And Anky created this by riding her horses in a super ugly and potentially hurtful manner.

we, the little guy have no power at all - remember?

mbm
Sep. 3, 2010, 02:04 AM
there is a reason why they brought this suit. i am not sure what it is, but there is a reason - probably they are going to try to get the judge to somehow opine that what AVG does is NOT rollkur - altho what good that will do is beyond me.

what i also don't get is why is this still about AVG? she isnt even relevent anymore! there are new kids on the block who also use rollkur - why arent they being brought up?

Karoline
Sep. 3, 2010, 02:46 AM
Rollkur has been banned by the FEI as abusive and from what I read its outlawed (?) in Holland so to say a rider does rollkur is to accuse them of something abusive, hence the desire to distance themselves completely from that practice/label.

egontoast
Sep. 3, 2010, 06:27 AM
honestly tho - over the last few weeks i have spent more time here - broken ribs and a lull in work


Must be over a year ago you mentioned breaking your ribs . Have you broken them again? OW!



there is a reason why they brought this suit. i am not sure what it is, but there is a reason

You mean they didn't start it for no reason at all like we all thought? Such insight!




what i also don't get is why is this still about AVG? she isnt even relevent anymore!


Um, because it's about her lawsuit, maybe?

caddym
Sep. 3, 2010, 07:52 AM
Maybe some enlightment ?

http://www.youtube.com/user/EurodressageTV?feature=mhsn#g/a

Wow, thanks for posting this link. I only just now watched the 1st video - very interesting and educational

caddym
Sep. 3, 2010, 08:00 AM
so now there is a requirement that a journalist/reporter must be a current olympic rider?

those poor riders sure aren't going to have much time for riding since they and only they are supposed to ride/train/judge/talk/opine/make rules/enforce the rules/ blah blah blah!

Of course "journalists" do not need to be olympic riders. "Journalists" job is to objectively report factual events - no? Isn't AA calling herself a "blogger" and not a "journalist"? But then her sire is for profit?

Anky's peers (ie qualified judges, fellow competitors) would be qualified to discuss anky's training, AA is not.

Isn't this the crux of the case?

siegi b.
Sep. 3, 2010, 10:45 AM
Peereboom - now you have crossed into territory that isn't part of the expertise of some of the posters here like RK/BV/LDR/tetanic contractions.... ooops!
The latter may very well fall into the new category you mentioned as pointed out by Coreene.

So maybe we can show a picture of spirithorse next to tetanic contractions?

mbm
Sep. 3, 2010, 12:38 PM
The crux of the case is how far does freedom of press go.


For example : Can you post a recognizable picture of somebody next to an article about unsafe s*x.

this is really interesting. so rollkur has been deemed abusive by various official parties and instead of going after the main practitioners of rollkur they change the name of the practice and then sue anyone that says "hey wait a minute.....anky (and many others) do use rollkur" ...

that makes no sense at all and clearly is a political move.

also, if holland declared rollkur abusive how will that relate to what people post outside of holland? will sjef go after each and every one of us?

the only way to relate it to the unsafe sex comment is to have seen the person doing the act over and over and when the act is deemed unsafe it becomes illegal to say i say that person doing that many times!

it is just double speak.... isnt it?

mbm
Sep. 3, 2010, 12:39 PM
Of course "journalists" do not need to be olympic riders. "Journalists" job is to objectively report factual events - no? Isn't AA calling herself a "blogger" and not a "journalist"? But then her sire is for profit?

Anky's peers (ie qualified judges, fellow competitors) would be qualified to discuss anky's training, AA is not.

Isn't this the crux of the case?

whaaa?

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Sep. 3, 2010, 12:50 PM
MBM. What exactly do you wish them to do when you say go after them?

Dressage Art
Sep. 3, 2010, 12:53 PM
Anky's peers (ie qualified judges, fellow competitors) would be qualified to discuss anky's training, AA is not.

Really? So the rest of us should just pay our $ to watch and to support the sport and keep our mouth shut? :lol: nice... going back to stone ages... That kind of bigot sport should be done in the privet country club with pre-selected members list. Then you don't have to deal with the rest of "unwashed masses".

If she wants to play sport in public, especially Olympics (originally and still for many sports it is AA, not a pro, gathering) = anybody can voice their opinion.

Look at the football, baseball, ice-skating, etc... lots of people voicing their opinions, thus lots are involved in those sports.

It's a shame that dressage still has such an elitist thinking from some.

mbm
Sep. 3, 2010, 01:13 PM
MBM. What exactly do you wish them to do when you say go after them?

i don't wish them to do anything except stop rewarding ugly/incorrect riding :)

but the FEI and now it appears, holland, have decided that Rollkur is abusive and is not allowed. doesn't it make sense to "deal with" the folks that practice it (in whatever manner the laws provide) instead of saying that those that do it now of course don't and instead they are doing X?

eta to ask: or do you really think that those that practice rollkur really did change their method to a new and improved method? how did they disseminate that method? how did they find out that it will provide the same needed "benefits" of rollkur? kind of interesting question in itself.

it is just political pure and simple. insert any other *thing* that has been made illegal.... and see if it makes sense what they are doing? it is just double speak. and propaganda. and they are doing a good job too!

i wish i had more of an insight into what was going on "over there" i am sure we are missing a lot of the nuances !

mbm
Sep. 3, 2010, 01:16 PM
i wonder how what the dutch courts say will affect a person from Belgium? do they have cross country jurisdiction?

siegi b.
Sep. 3, 2010, 01:36 PM
Why would the Dutch courts have anything to do with the Belgian courts? That's like saying that US law applies in Canada. We're talking about two different countries....

mbm - you remind me of a power drill.... once you have started there is no way to stop you going in that direction, even if that direction turns out wrong.

egontoast
Sep. 3, 2010, 02:51 PM
live and let live

It gets very tiring to try and discuss anything with the dogmatic people who are obsessed with their conspiracy/marketing theories that have nothing to do with real life.

ginger708
Sep. 3, 2010, 02:58 PM
mbm - you remind me of a power drill.... once you have started there is no way to stop you going in that direction, even if that direction turns out wrong.


Amen!

ginger708
Sep. 3, 2010, 03:24 PM
Really? So the rest of us should just pay our $ to watch and to support the sport and keep our mouth shut? :lol: nice... going back to stone ages... That kind of bigot sport should be done in the privet country club with pre-selected members list. Then you don't have to deal with the rest of "unwashed masses".

Really this is such bull. How Many dressage shows have you paid to watch. The ones in Illinois and Kentucky are free. As far as paying to see dressage, your looking at maybe 10 shows in the US. The WEG is the biggest and this will be its first and most likely last year in the US and people are losing their mind about how much they have to pay. And quite frankly you separate yourself form society by owning a horse there are not to many poor people that can do that.


If she wants to play sport in public, especially Olympics (originally and still for many sports it is AA, not a pro, gathering) = anybody can voice their opinion.

The Suit is not over an opinion it is over the reporter linking Anky to Rollkur. It really doen't matter what we think about Anky or Rollkur. If Anky can prove that she uses LDR and not Rollkur in her training. If Anky and prove that to the courts than the reporter looses.


Look at the football, baseball, ice-skating, etc... lots of people voicing their opinions, thus lots are involved in those sports.

You can not even compare the amount of income generated be baseball and football to dressage. Also if a player thinks that a reporter gets out of line and defames them they will sue just as fast if not faster than Anky did.
Once again the reporter in Anky's case did not say that it is her opinion Anky uses Rollkur in her training she had repeatedly stated as fact that Anky does use Rollkur in her training.

If a sports reporter linked a pro-athlete to storids or other illegal drugs and could not prove as fact that the athlete was in fact taking those drugs and it hurt the players endorsements that reporter would be sued and out of a job. Reporters in the states are just lucky that most pro-athletes here are taking steroids and other illicit drugs.


It's a shame that dressage still has such an elitist thinking from some.

Why do I have to have an elitist attitude just because I don't agree that people should be strung up an burned at the stake because they use a training method that I don't agree with.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Sep. 3, 2010, 04:27 PM
Bravo.

Equibrit
Sep. 3, 2010, 04:32 PM
Why do I have to have an elitist attitude just because I don't agree that people should be strung up and burned at the stake because they use a training method that I don't agree with.

I'm sure Astrid agrees. This thread has now come full circle, and you are all about to disappear up your own orificia.

mbm
Sep. 3, 2010, 09:24 PM
who is stringing people up? i missed that part.

mbm
Sep. 3, 2010, 09:26 PM
live and let live

It gets very tiring to try and discuss anything with the dogmatic people who are obsessed with their conspiracy/marketing theories that have nothing to do with real life.

LOL!!! i almost choked on my dinner! now it is a conspiracy for a business to market itself and try to make money?

you might want to talk to some high power spin doctors or marketing/propaganda folks. it is quite eye opening.

Rollkur Barbie
Sep. 4, 2010, 12:57 AM
i wonder how what the dutch courts say will affect a person from Belgium? do they have cross country jurisdiction?

Why yes, they do. It's an Olympic sport, too, you know.

egontoast
Sep. 4, 2010, 07:01 AM
now it is a conspiracy for a business to market itself and try to make money?


No idea what you are talking about. :confused:

You are the one who is always talking about conspiracies and marketing in relation to dressage and that's what I was referencing.

Perhaps you might want to take a breath between your multiple postings to consider what you have written before you respond again.

claire
Sep. 4, 2010, 07:49 AM
:lol: cliffnotes on the never ending RK/HF/LDR threads!

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7046521/

claire
Sep. 4, 2010, 08:18 AM
Anky decides not to sue Astrid.

What an unexpected turn of events! :eek:

Sorry for the rough translation!

http://www.horsetelex.nl / Press release Anky van Grunsven


After careful consideration, in the family and its legal representative Mr. Schelstraete, Anky van Grunsven has decided the main proceedings, initiated against the Flemish Internet journalist Astrid Appels, to immediately cease.

An estimation error of Anky's side on the strategy of the party achieves the decision.

By the counterparty large-scale publicity campaign in addition to very positive discussions also brought negative. Anky is not justified in the interest of sport, but also because of the privacy of her family, the procedure is longer continue.

Especially Kamervragen set by Esther Ouwehand to Minister Verburg, which are fed by the negative publicity campaign by the counterparty, Anky going too far. These questions have nothing to do with the case against Appel. Rand and privacy cases the suddenly dominate.

Anky from now wants to concentrate on its daily work, family and sport, which they held during September of traveling to Kentucky for the World Equestrian Games, the official World Cup horse.

Blue Domino
Sep. 4, 2010, 09:20 AM
Some like to demand that Rollkur and LDR (long deep round) be the same exact practice.


It's just like if someone demanded that running a horse backwards for 1/2 a mile is just exactly the same as asking a horse to take 5 steps backwards.

Reasonable people know there's a big difference.


Then on the other hand, the same some wants to argue the wonderful ways of Baucher and his methods.

Baucher, his methods universally condemned by the Masters of riding, past and present. Some demand we accept that the Masters are wrong and Baucher is right.

Reasonable people won't buy into that one either.

DownYonder
Sep. 4, 2010, 09:25 AM
Sounds like they have decided the negative publicity being hurled in their direction isn't worth it, esp. now that she will be competing at WEG.

IMHO, the lawsuit was a knee-jerk reaction anyway. SJ wasn't getting his point across through his bullying emails to AA, so he decided to see if he could intimidate her via legal means. He is used to getting his own way all the time, but he underestimated the backlash against them in terms of public support.

Kudos to AA for standing up to him. She is a tough cookie.

alicen
Sep. 4, 2010, 09:44 AM
Anky decides not to sue Astrid.

Is this not the natural end to this thread?

Equibrit
Sep. 4, 2010, 10:21 AM
If this (http://www.topdressage.tv/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1587) is an example of the way people are behaving - it's pretty pathetic.

Karoline
Sep. 4, 2010, 01:19 PM
Anky decides not to sue Astrid.

What an unexpected turn of events! :eek:

Sorry for the rough translation!

If this is true, it is a pity. I hope that the party for animal welfare will still get to ask their questions. What happens the next time a journalist labels a photo Rollkur?

Equibrit, had not seen this forum before last night. These comments I find completely inappropriate and they makes me wonder about wether a judge would really go on this forum and participate in that dialog:

A supporter of Astrid writes in an shares that he is the father of a young Belgian rider.

This is what ensues:

One person responds:

"Hi Paul, how long are you already active in the dressageworld. To me it seems that you are send here on a mission by Doctor Astrid . And believe me this does more harm to your daughter than you can imagine. "

From the judge (is he a judge, I thought he was a rider?): "Astrid is very good in boosting the ego of older men" and then he posts an article about the young rider in question.

Followed by the same first person answering:" Patrick could be the judge at the next competition of your daughter" with a snarky emoticon.

What is that? A veiled threat?

In any case, good for Theo for asking for the discussion to get back on track.

spirithorse
Sep. 4, 2010, 02:07 PM
Suit withdrawn, thread ended, Anky/Sjef's rolkur/ldr still goes on

Karoline
Sep. 4, 2010, 02:19 PM
Goes on but as Canyonoak so justly observes on Theo's forum:

"This case is about abuse, horse welfare, the definition of training as rollkur or LDR.

If a photo of Anky can be seen as rollkur--which is BANNED by the FEI, then by extension--what are Hans-Peter,Adelinde, etc doing in the warm-up arena?"

Yes, what are they doing indeed? RK or LDR? I dont think that the Feb 9th LDR victory feels all that good anymore right now because it was built on air. No clear differentiation in the POSTURES themselves and from the beginning, it is the posture of RK that has been the cause of upset so the FEI's definition was like a band aid on a wound that required major surgery.

I am interrested in what will happen with the UK Olympics. Right now the public in the UK is up in arms over Prince Harry bloodying his polo pony's side. Imagine how they, the UK public will react to LDR/RK/HP/LDR because the photos, well regardless of caption, the photos are not attractive. What happens if LDR/RK/HP/LDR is banned on UK soil?

Dressage Art
Sep. 4, 2010, 03:01 PM
Once again the reporter in Anky's case did not say that it is her opinion Anky uses Rollkur in her training she had repeatedly stated as fact that Anky does use Rollkur in her training.First off all, I disagree with you that Anky can prove to the court the clear difference on photos and videos between RK and LDR. None of LDR supporters to that day proved that difference clearly on photos and videos anywhere, including here on COTH. If you can, please post series of photos and videos side by side of RK vs. LDR.

Second, I think Anky by withdrawing the lawsuit also clearly realized that she can't prove the clear difference on photos and videos between RK and LDR, so she lost by default by withdrawing her lawsuit.

Third, please look at the handles/names of some COTH posters, who were supper adamant that RK is a great training method and that even supper Olympian Anky is using is and they stand by it a 100%!!!! Then FEI banned RK and I remember several COTHers were in denial that FEI banned RK (some were telling me to learn how to read ;) and other usual insults) And now, all of the sudden, the same people with the same RK handles/names are trying to prove that Anky is not using a banned by FEI technique RK???? Errr... flip flop much?

The RK handles/names of our COTHers do crack me up now... Now they are parading their support for the aggressive RK riding that is banned by FEI and even Anky doesn’t want to be associated with RK, ... yet her supporters have RK names :lol: honestly, don't you find that quite ironic?

Equibrit
Sep. 4, 2010, 03:22 PM
In any case, good for Theo for asking for the discussion to get back on track.

I guess you missed this from Theo;

"You certainly don't want to see the TV-broadcast. It was (as always) a collection of nonsense. Foam on the mouth was declared as horses being unhappy. LDR was found out by Anky and Sjef etc.etc.

One big collection of nonsense and none issues.

The biggest nonsense came from the Bitch Queen of Moll herself aka the stephdaughter of Frau Pochhammer"

Peace
Sep. 4, 2010, 04:07 PM
Suit withdrawn:lol: Guess they don't want the government involved...realized they can't win:eek:

.

spirithorse
Sep. 4, 2010, 05:30 PM
"If a photo of Anky can be seen as rollkur--which is BANNED by the FEI, then by extension--what are Hans-Peter,Adelinde, etc doing in the warm-up arena?"

How many American dressage competitors, including International GP, can be on the LIST?

Ghazzu
Sep. 4, 2010, 05:34 PM
i just think the FEI needs to be honest. If they want to reward horses that do not meet the requirements of the rules as they stand.... they should just have the balls to change the rules.

the new rules could include:

goal of the sport: to encourage and reward the horse that can throw it's legs highest whilst maintaining enough tension to wow the audience. extra points will be given for those that keep the audience on the edge of the seat ....

any kind of blow up by the horse will not be penalized as it shows that certain "flair" that is so desired

winner will be calculated by a combination of audience enthusiasm and judges scores. any score that is not record breaking will be thrown out.

;)

It's called Arabian English Pleasure (talk about oxymorons...)

spirithorse
Sep. 4, 2010, 05:38 PM
Naw, it appears the 'NEW' dressage has its origins deeply rooted in the fine art school of saddlebred competitions.

Dressage Art
Sep. 4, 2010, 05:50 PM
Suit withdrawn :lol: Guess they don't want the government involved...realized they can't win:eek:

+ may be she looked closer at the names of her supporters as well: “Rollkur Barbie”, “Don Raphaelo Rollkurista” etc… ? I’m not sure those are helpful when Anky is trying to distance herself from RK.

Does anybody know what Anky’s response of Blue Tongue or RK Pony was? Did she say anything about that? Does she thinks it’s an example of RK or LDR?

Peace
Sep. 4, 2010, 06:41 PM
:lol:I'm laughing at some people:lol::lol:.. Saying Anky dropped the Suit because of WEG...HUH.. WEG isn't anything knew. She knew being the alternate there was a chance for her to make the team as well as her husband has always been the coach.. I'd guess she doesn't want the animal rights group of the Government to poke around to deeply into their method... Only a guess either way should be fun watching her compete in Reining.

ThreeFigs
Sep. 4, 2010, 06:42 PM
Some like to demand that Rollkur and LDR (long deep round) be the same exact practice.


It's just like if someone demanded that running a horse backwards for 1/2 a mile is just exactly the same as asking a horse to take 5 steps backwards.

Reasonable people know there's a big difference.


Then on the other hand, the same some wants to argue the wonderful ways of Baucher and his methods.

Baucher, his methods universally condemned by the Masters of riding, past and present. Some demand we accept that the Masters are wrong and Baucher is right.

Reasonable people won't buy into that one either.

Well stated, BD!

Thanks. :D

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Sep. 4, 2010, 06:56 PM
In the well known interview she did in Dressage and CT many years ago, Bettina Drummond stated that Nuno had told her he had dedicated his life to the interpretation of Baucher's second manner. If that is true does that mean you think these masters would condemn the works of Nuno?

ThreeFigs
Sep. 4, 2010, 07:15 PM
DRR, I think there's a huge difference in Baucher's first manner and his second manner. I also get the impression that most "master" level riders would condemn most of Baucher's first manner, but would find much to like in the second one. Am I wrong?

Anyway, that's to explain my agreement with BD's remark. I was more taken with BD's differentiation between LDR and RK.

I just purchased the book Baucher wrote on his first manner, but did HE ever write about his second manner? Or was it only explained by some of his students who were familiar with it? Who can recommend a good text on his Second manner?

I think I have several books around here that may touch on it, but I don't know how much is "pure Baucher" and how much is "interpretation of Baucher".

And, I've been in the sun most of the day volunteering at our Championships, nowkicking back with a Mike's Hard Lemonade, so pardon the spelling and any nonsensical sentences...

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Sep. 4, 2010, 08:10 PM
Enjoy that Mike's Beasmom! That was a pleasant answer to my post. I am not aware of any published works by Baucher himself on his second method. His lifelong protoge Favorot De Kerbrech's book The Methodical Training of the Saddle Horse can perhaps still be aquired and is strictly about the second manner. In the forward to this book Kerbrech stresses that the words contained therein are not his interpretations of Baucher but Bauchers words themselves from notes taken over years of his lessons and lectures. It is from this book that I typed out the entire chapter called exaggerated ramener[ramener outre] some months ago when we met here.
Everyone. Beasmom has the right idea. Its Saturday night. Lets all have a drink.
P.S. One or two of you could use a sense of humor.

Karoline
Sep. 4, 2010, 08:27 PM
Free Baucher here:

http://www.archive.org/details/newmethodofhorse00bauc

ThreeFigs
Sep. 4, 2010, 08:51 PM
I think that's the first manner, Karoline. That's the one I just ordered. Thanks, though. I could have saved some dough & just read it online. Darn!

Later, after a nice nappy-poo, I'll search for De Kerbrech's book...

Horse shows are exhausting.

Jackie Cochran
Sep. 4, 2010, 08:54 PM
Don Rafaelo R.--Is the book you mentioned published in English and under what title? On amazon I could only find it in French, and unfortunately I do not know French. There was one book in English by the author (Kerbrech) about cross country horses, but that does not sound the same.
Karoline, thanks for the reference--it will take me a while, I hate reading on the computer!

Ghazzu
Sep. 4, 2010, 09:11 PM
Fixerupper and others:
Get a grip on reality....
the word tetanic does not just apply to the tetanus virus......nor to any parasite...



Tetanus, the disease, is not caused by a virus. Rather, the effects are due to a toxin produced by the bacterial organism Clostridium tetani. The toxin blocks release of inhibitory neurotransmitters.

spirithorse
Sep. 4, 2010, 09:22 PM
Beasmom;
I have the first manner already and this one is different, the drawings are in different locations.

spirithorse
Sep. 4, 2010, 09:28 PM
Ghazzu;
Thanks for the correction

Karoline
Sep. 4, 2010, 09:51 PM
I think that's the first manner, Karoline. That's the one I just ordered. Thanks, though. I could have saved some dough & just read it online. Darn!

Later, after a nice nappy-poo, I'll search for De Kerbrech's book...

Horse shows are exhausting.

From what this website says: http://equi-leger.fr/bibliographie.aspx the book concludes with the second manner discarding 40 years of previous work and positioning the second manner as THE equestrian truth. Baucher admonishes all to either take his method whole or discard it entirely but to not mutilate it. He describes the great joy of riding horses trained with his method.

ThreeFigs
Sep. 4, 2010, 11:26 PM
Oh, well! I must be too tired to read for comprehension!

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Sep. 5, 2010, 01:07 AM
I found my copy of Kerbrech thru classifieds in USA Equestrian mag. under the listing "old books." It took a long time and honestly I cant remember how we got it but it was only 7 or 8 years ago. Craig Stevens is intimately familiar with the book and does not like it because the translations are bad and I admit looks like it was written on a bad old typewriter. When they can be aquired these old texts take so much of the questions about much debated concepts and techniques into light! In 1983 I had access to the library one of my beloved mentors had accumulated over the years. All his books were highlighted like any college students textbooks might be in their chosen studies. It is only through this kind of research that we can aquire what experts on these subjects like Paul Belasik describe as "deep knowledge."
One more funny story. I went looking Etienne Beudant's book the same way. It 8 years and found someone that had it who wanted $275.00 for it. I bought the book. Used. When it arrived I opened the cover and on the inside it said "Springfield Public Library." I had bought a stolen dressage text! What

has it all come too!
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

spirithorse
Sep. 5, 2010, 01:35 AM
1999 image of Anky.........she did not sue the artist............lol

http://woldhek.nl/image/show/962-anky-van-grunsven

Karoline
Sep. 5, 2010, 01:51 AM
That I think is not OK. I dont care how she looks, I care how she trains and the two should not be muddled.

DownYonder
Sep. 5, 2010, 10:57 AM
:lol:I'm laughing at some people:lol::lol:.. Saying Anky dropped the Suit because of WEG...HUH.. WEG isn't anything knew. She knew being the alternate there was a chance for her to make the team as well as her husband has always been the coach.. I'd guess she doesn't want the animal rights group of the Government to poke around to deeply into their method... Only a guess either way should be fun watching her compete in Reining.

I agree that she probably decided it wasn't worth it to open the door for the Government to investigate her training methods. But I believe her selection to the WEG Reining team also played a part. The Dutch federation will no doubt want to generate as much favorable publicity as possible for its teams in Lexington - esp. since they are virtually unstoppable to win Team Gold and Individual Gold and at least Silver in Dressage. They are going to want the equestrian press to be fawning all over the Dutch teams and programs and singing their praises long and loud. A lawsuit against a journalist by a Dutch Team member would have made ALL journalists pause in giving them favorable coverage. It was a BAD public relations move to file this lawsuit in the run-up to WEG. The last thing they want is the press shunning AVG.

Karoline
Sep. 5, 2010, 11:53 AM
Wether le lawsuit was dropped or not it was filed. That should give pause to journalists regardless.

siegi b.
Sep. 5, 2010, 02:04 PM
You have to have a very loose definition of "journalist".... :)

mbm
Sep. 5, 2010, 02:11 PM
Dear Spirit Horse : you know.... i finally got around to looking into your background. and i have to say that you should be ashamed of yourself selling yourself as a trainer !

i watched some videos of "Gent" on youtube and that poor horse! that is as bad as or worse than rollkur.

please stop trying to help folks and send them to a proper trainer!

that lovely morgen could be going so well if he were ridden correctly! holy cow!!!!!!

Dressage Art
Sep. 5, 2010, 02:40 PM
Wether le lawsuit was dropped or not it was filed. That should give pause to journalists regardless.
That will, but what kind of a pause? Pause to be careful when writing about Anky in fear that she will file another lawsuit?

Touchstone Farm
Sep. 5, 2010, 02:59 PM
That will, but what kind of a pause? Pause to be careful when writing about Anky in fear that she will file another lawsuit?

Hopefully this threat won't stop journalists from investigating. If it does, it will be a sad state for all of us who live in democratic countries. A free press is vital to ferreting out unethical or illegal practices by companies or individuals, etc.

Journalists have been threatened for years and, no doubt, will continue to be. But there is something about most journalists who are driven to do their jobs to the best of their abilities in spite of the circumstances or threats.

ToN Farm
Sep. 5, 2010, 03:04 PM
Dear Spirit Horse : you know.... i finally got around to looking into your background. and i have to say that you should be ashamed of yourself selling yourself as a trainer !

i watched some videos of "Gent" on youtube and that poor horse! that is as bad as or worse than rollkur.

please stop trying to help folks and send them to a proper trainer!
Maybe now you can see why so many in the anti-RK group lose credibility. While one doesn't have to be a superior rider to be anti-RK, it would seem appropriate for that person to ride in a non-cringe-worthy way. It seems to me that the more intense they are about RK, the worse they ride. MonicaW, for example (just had so say that here on the board of freedom speech).

Touchstone Farm
Sep. 5, 2010, 03:13 PM
A supporter of Astrid writes in an shares that he is the father of a young Belgian rider.

This is what ensues:

One person responds:

"Hi Paul, how long are you already active in the dressageworld. To me it seems that you are send here on a mission by Doctor Astrid . And believe me this does more harm to your daughter than you can imagine. "

From the judge (is he a judge, I thought he was a rider?): "Astrid is very good in boosting the ego of older men" and then he posts an article about the young rider in question.

Followed by the same first person answering:" Patrick could be the judge at the next competition of your daughter" with a snarky emoticon.

What is that? A veiled threat?

In any case, good for Theo for asking for the discussion to get back on track.

Strong-armed tactics aimed at people to go along with (literally) strong-armed training techniques? :-)

spirithorse
Sep. 5, 2010, 04:22 PM
:rolleyes:MBM & ToN;

...where can you both be seen on Youtube riding? You both give forth with great rantings, however, may we see you both ride?...oh and that needs to be reschooling - not riding a schooled horse.:eek::eek::eek::eek:

I am proud to be able to teach a horse that it can carry a rider correctly and move as its muscle system is designed to function.

On the other hand, I am ashamed of individuals like yourselves that refuse to 'really' observe how you are both 'forcing' your horses into subjegated positions contrary to the their muscle operations, that have destroyed the art of dressage and horsemanship in general.

You both should be ashamed that neither of you have eyes that can see when a horse's back is up, nor that can see extension of the forehand occuring from the high point of the shoulder, nor a hindquarter that is 'thoroughly' engaged and driving. Oh yes and by the way he is carrying his head the way he wants to and is comfortable.....

The owner/rider is putting for the effort to reschool herself for the horse's movements and they both have only been at this for about five weeks....just hours of schooling.




Dear Spirit Horse : you know.... i finally got around to looking into your background. and i have to say that you should be ashamed of yourself selling yourself as a trainer !

i watched some videos of "Gent" on youtube and that poor horse! that is as bad as or worse than rollkur.

please stop trying to help folks and send them to a proper trainer!

that lovely morgen could be going so well if he were ridden correctly! holy cow!!!!!!

mbm
Sep. 5, 2010, 04:52 PM
my videos have been up for all to see for years. but that isnt the point. i am NOT a trainer nor do i bill myself as one. nor do i hold myself up as an example of "How It Should Be Done"

you DO.

each video i watched that had your name attached had the horse completely above the bit, back dropped and LOCKED - that is not sympathetic riding. it is as bad as rollkur - just the opposite.

i normally dont call folks out, but you posted that Gent video as an example of correct riding.

all i can say is hogwash.

and ToN, yes i know.... i am not sure what to do about it!

mbm
Sep. 5, 2010, 05:03 PM
oh and i dont think anyone has to be any level to have an opinion about dressage. folks will either pay attention or ignore the opinion based on how is spouting it.

but i do think that to effect change the opposition must be credible and if we are to be against bad riding is must be ALL bad riding - no matter who is doing it or if it is too deep or too high.

the body of the horse can only work correctly within its nature.

Lexi
Sep. 5, 2010, 05:06 PM
isn't spirithorse the guy that was jumping the horse with chains around its pasterns, or is that some other colorful Coth character I'm confusing him with?

Dressage Art
Sep. 5, 2010, 05:57 PM
Hopefully this threat won't stop journalists from investigating. If it does, it will be a sad state for all of us who live in democratic countries. A free press is vital to ferreting out unethical or illegal practices by companies or individuals, etc.

Journalists have been threatened for years and, no doubt, will continue to be. But there is something about most journalists who are driven to do their jobs to the best of their abilities in spite of the circumstances or threats.

well said.

alicen
Sep. 5, 2010, 05:59 PM
isn't spirithorse the guy that was jumping the horse with chains around its pasterns, or is that some other colorful Coth character I'm confusing him with?

http://spirithorseltd.com.futuresite.register.com/db2/00105/spirithorseltd.com/_uimages/tobyjumping.jpg

Dressage Art
Sep. 5, 2010, 06:07 PM
Maybe now you can see why so many in the anti-RK group lose credibility. While one doesn't have to be a superior rider to be anti-RK, it would seem appropriate for that person to ride in a non-cringe-worthy way.ToN, but that also goes BOTH ways, there are plenty of people who are pro-RK who can't even keep their hands still at trot, so they use RK as a crutch to balance themselves on their horse's mouths... It's a slippery point, that thinking who can and who cannot critique the upper level riders: then if somebody is pro-RK, please go ahead and state: "I trained so many horses to GP and I showed so many horses at the top international competitions, etc, etc... thus I have the knowledge to support RK and voice my opinion on COTH!"

Go ahead RK supporters, post your extensive upper level experience, your photos, videos etc...

It goes both ways!

4xhoof
Sep. 5, 2010, 07:09 PM
http://spirithorseltd.com.futuresite.register.com/db2/00105/spirithorseltd.com/_uimages/tobyjumping.jpg

I wonder what George Morris would say about that jumping position?:eek:

spirithorse
Sep. 5, 2010, 07:21 PM
FYI:
Drink some more KoolAid....
I have seen rollers used on jumpers.
Get a grip on reality...you make snide remarks about something you know not of. The horse is not 'jumping' - he is taking a small X and the lightweight chains helped teach him to pick up his feet....and never marked him in any manner.

You folks ride with hoof protectors and cannon protectors....are you sure they are 'safe' with no residual harm?


http://spirithorseltd.com.futuresite.register.com/db2/00105/spirithorseltd.com/_uimages/tobyjumping.jpg

ThreeFigs
Sep. 5, 2010, 07:28 PM
He'd say, "WHAT jumping position?"

I seldom agree with anything mbm posts -- in fact, I love to annoy her, but in the case of her calling ol' Reverend Spirithorse out, she's exactly right.

Yes, she has put up video of her riding, but as she noted to you, Reverend, SHE is not marketing herself as a trainer, either online or IRL. That's the difference. So next, you'll no doubt attack me for not putting up video of my own riding -- oh, well, you've done so before.

Why don't I? Because right now I have enough to do. I get sufficient feedback on my riding from real live judges, clinicians and instructors, so there's no need to solicit opinions from internet strangers. I teach locally, have no desire to spread my fame (or infamy, if you will!) worldwide.

I'm not that big a deal, and I know it. Spirithorse is no big deal, but he doesn't know it. He thinks he's the equal of "Master" Sanders. I'm not impressed with Sanders' bluster, but for sure he can outride the Reverend with one hand tied behind his back!

Peace
Sep. 5, 2010, 07:28 PM
If that is you spirithorse no offense but you should take some lessons. :no:

ThreeFigs
Sep. 5, 2010, 07:33 PM
Dittos!

Peace
Sep. 5, 2010, 07:38 PM
The past few weeks international media publications reported massively on the lawsuit that Anky van Grunsven started aginst the Flemmish journalist Astrid Appels. The court case was supporsed to start on 8 September 2010 in 's Hertogenbosch, The Netherlands, but Anky has decided to give up. She retreated from her fight against Eurodressage.com and Astrid Appels.

It was stated in a press release that, "after careful consideration, in family circle and with her lawyer Mr. Schelstraete, Anky van Grunsven has decided to immediately stop the legal procedure against Flemmish internet journalist Astrid Appels. An error in judgement on Anky's part concerning the strategy of the defendants has facilitated this decision."

For entire article
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2010/09/05/anky-van-grunsven-gives-and-retracts-lawsuit

siegi b.
Sep. 5, 2010, 08:24 PM
If it's in Eurodressage then it has to be true! :lol:

mbm
Sep. 5, 2010, 08:32 PM
you dont believe anky's own press release? (which is what is being quoted)

Fixerupper
Sep. 5, 2010, 08:51 PM
oooh....averting my eyes :eek:

so many pots...
so many kettles....

:lol:

egontoast
Sep. 5, 2010, 08:55 PM
I would like to see the press release rather than the defendant's take on it. ;)

I doubt that last sentence was in any press release from Anky unless it is a just a very bad translation from Dutch and does not reflect the original meaning. :no:

Karoline
Sep. 5, 2010, 09:40 PM
Do you not think it was an error in judgement? Or do you think Sjef is to proud to ever recognize it as such?

claire
Sep. 5, 2010, 10:24 PM
This is the original press release (in total) Dutch and English translation w/link.


http://www.horsetelex.nl / persbericht Anky van Grunsven


Na rijp beraad, in familiekring en met haar rechtsvertegenwoordiger mr Schelstraete, heeft Anky van Grunsven besloten de bodemprocedure, gestart tegen de Vlaamse internetjournaliste Astrid Appels, met onmiddellijke ingang te staken.

Een inschattingsfout van Anky's zijde betreffende de strategie van de tegenpartij bewerkstelligt het genomen besluit.

De door de tegenpartij groots opgezette publiciteitscampagne heeft naast zeer positieve ook negatieve discussies teweeg gebracht. Anky vindt het niet verantwoord in het belang van de sport, maar ook vanwege de privacy van haar familie, de procedure nog langer voort te zetten.

Vooral de Kamervragen, gesteld door Esther Ouwehand aan minister Verburg, die zijn gevoed door de negatieve publiciteitscampagne van de tegenpartij, gaan Anky veel te ver. Deze vragen hebben niets van doen met de procedure tegen Appels. Rand- en privacyzaken voeren opeens de boventoon.

Anky wil zich vanaf heden volledig concentreren op haar dagelijkse werkzaamheden, familie en de sport, waarvoor ze in de loop van september afreist naar Kentucky voor de Wereldruiterspelen, het officiële WK paardensport.









http://www.horsetelex.nl / Press release Anky van Grunsven


After careful consideration, in the family and its legal representative Mr. Schelstraete, Anky van Grunsven has decided the main proceedings, initiated against the Flemish Internet journalist Astrid Appels, to immediately cease.

An estimation error of Anky's side on the strategy of the party achieves the decision.

By the counterparty large-scale publicity campaign in addition to very positive discussions also brought negative. Anky is not justified in the interest of sport, but also because of the privacy of her family, the procedure is longer continue.

Especially Kamervragen set by Esther Ouwehand to Minister Verburg, which are fed by the negative publicity campaign by the counterparty, Anky go too far. These questions have nothing to do with the case against Appel. Rand and privacy cases the suddenly dominate.

Anky from now wants to concentrate on its daily work, family and sport, which they held during September of traveling to Kentucky for the World Equestrian Games, the official World Cup horse.

Peace
Sep. 5, 2010, 10:54 PM
oooh....averting my eyes :eek:

so many pots...
so many kettles....

:lol:

And so many delusional.:eek:

snoopy
Sep. 6, 2010, 02:15 AM
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2010/09/05/anky-van-grunsven-gives-and-retracts-lawsuit



Own your actions, what ever you want to call them.

alicen
Sep. 6, 2010, 08:36 AM
It was stated in a press release that, "after careful consideration, in family circle and with her lawyer Mr. Schelstraete, Anky van Grunsven has decided to immediately stop the legal procedure against Flemmish internet journalist Astrid Appels. An error in judgement on Anky's part concerning the strategy of the defendants has facilitated this decision."

And the source of this press release would be whom?

egontoast
Sep. 6, 2010, 09:26 AM
This is being discussed on the other thread. Looks like a poor translation. Someone put up an even worse google type translation on the other. Perhaps an objective? Dutch speaker will give us a better translation.

Eurodressage cannot be objective in this. The item comes across as petty and gloating and not good journalism. Surprise. Surprise.

ginger708
Sep. 6, 2010, 10:07 AM
First off all, I disagree with you that Anky can prove to the court the clear difference on photos and videos between RK and LDR. None of LDR supporters to that day proved that difference clearly on photos and videos anywhere, including here on COTH. If you can, please post series of photos and videos side by side of RK vs. LDR.

Second, I think Anky by withdrawing the lawsuit also clearly realized that she can't prove the clear difference on photos and videos between RK and LDR, so she lost by default by withdrawing her lawsuit.

Third, please look at the handles/names of some COTH posters, who were supper adamant that RK is a great training method and that even supper Olympian Anky is using is and they stand by it a 100%!!!! Then FEI banned RK and I remember several COTHers were in denial that FEI banned RK (some were telling me to learn how to read ;) and other usual insults) And now, all of the sudden, the same people with the same RK handles/names are trying to prove that Anky is not using a banned by FEI technique RK???? Errr... flip flop much?

The RK handles/names of our COTHers do crack me up now... Now they are parading their support for the aggressive RK riding that is banned by FEI and even Anky doesn’t want to be associated with RK, ... yet her supporters have RK names :lol: honestly, don't you find that quite ironic?

I am not really worried about what cothers have supported Rollkur or LDR in the past. I have said that it is a practice that I would not use in my training however I do not believe that until the practice can be proven harmful I personally am not going to jump on any band wagons.

As far as the law suit I feel that as a journalism major in college I believe that journalists not matter what their personal opinions are they need to be checked and they need to report what happened and let the public form their own opinions. It seems pretty cleat that the reporter in question has a clear opinion and seems to be using her media platform to push her agenda. That I do not agree with at all.

Velvet
Sep. 6, 2010, 12:03 PM
Astrid needs to learn to write in English. :lol:

alicen
Sep. 6, 2010, 12:10 PM
For a small fee, I'd gladly edit the English version.

Kyzteke
Sep. 6, 2010, 01:09 PM
Free Baucher here:

http://www.archive.org/details/newmethodofhorse00bauc

Very cool!

I'll be printing that out. I assume the book itself is either OOP or "rare?"

I recognize some of the illustrations of the ground work from another book I've been reading..."Lessons in Lightness."

The idea is to use as light a touch as possible, especially in the bit/jaw. This is the opposite of RK, where they ride that curb constantly, and even when they finally let go, the horse is reluctant to truly go forward.

So, while I don't know Baucher in depth, it seems that he is stressing LIGHTNESS and there is no lightness at all in RK horse (to my eye). It's all pushing and pulling and heavy stuff. The horse never really moves in a that natural manner that you see in the field.

Why then is B. connected to RK or abusive techniques?

Dressage Art
Sep. 6, 2010, 01:13 PM
As far as the law suit I feel that as a journalism major in college I believe that journalists not matter what their personal opinions are they need to be checked and they need to report what happened and let the public form their own opinions. It seems pretty cleat that the reporter in question has a clear opinion and seems to be using her media platform to push her agenda. That I do not agree with at all.

Many views will change when you will work for 10+ years in the field after graduating from college. From reading your posts it seems that you view already colored by your personal opinions and not a cold headed pure journalism, but may be you just don't see how your emotions/opinions color your writing.

Most journalists want to be a whistle blowers. I find it that most journalists don’t lie and try to expose what is being kept hush-hush. And yes, most journalist just like most politicians would omit the side that they want to hide, and spotlight the side that they are passionate about. Including you!

It's easy to be in control when you write about something that don't touch your heart, but when someone has a history with the subject for many years and has a strong feelings about it = you may find that it's quite difficult not to twist the truth just a little bit, so difficult not to brush aside what you don't want to read/face, so difficult to report both sides of the coin, so tempting to put your spin on it, etc... you yourself closed your eyes on some of the things that doesn't help to portray your point... Your choice of words describing sides are clear indication where your heart belongs: “band wagon” can be referred to both RK band wagon and anti-RK band wagon, but it’s a strong coloring of the “other” side ;)

Weather you don't agree with using "her media platform to push her agenda" if you go and re-read your posts, you'll see that you are starting to be guilty of that as well, yet you are still in college = the purest time of your journalist career.


large-scale publicity campaign in addition to very positive discussions also brought negative. if some reporters will not report other side of the story, there ALWAYS will be somebody who would! And that goes both ways... that's the reason why those RK debates are supper long... most report only one side and there is always somebody who would try to balance that one sided post/opinion/report out.

egontoast
Sep. 6, 2010, 01:29 PM
ginger can say what she likes on a discussion board just as you can, DA.

It's a discussion board. She's not pretending here to be a journalist on a news site.




It seems pretty cleat that the reporter in question has a clear opinion and seems to be using her media platform to push her agenda.


This is very obvious.

THINKING people would not believe everything they read posted by a party to the case. Similarly, you would not expect to get the full story from Anky's website. Interestingly she does not comment there although she could as she has not ever pretended to be a journalist.


I think the birth of all manner of opinion blogs on the net has confused people about what might be expected from professional journalists.

If Eurodressage is now just a blog of some individual's opinions, then perhaps they should make that clear.

It rather looks that way. Why not just call it a personal blog then.

For news, I think this website is much more professional :

http://www.dressage-news.com/

and no, I have nothing to do with it. I just prefer the professionalism and the international coverage is better, IMO.

A suggestion though, if they are reading this- lose the flipping /slide show type news function. And for people reading, go click on 'frontpage news'to see all new items and make the thing stop revolving.

Then you can see all items.

it's very nice site other than that with good access to results and lots of items from Us and Canada.

Dressage Art
Sep. 6, 2010, 01:38 PM
ginger can say what she likes on a discussion board just as you can, DA.Absolutely, but if she tends to cover one side in her posts, she shouldn’t try to pull her journalist card out and claim that she didn't jump on that band wagon already. You should know exactly what I’m talking about, you are the master of a positive or negative spin on facts.

egontoast
Sep. 6, 2010, 01:48 PM
Absolutely, but if she tends to cover one side in her posts, she shouldn’t try to pull her journalist card out and claim that she didn't jump on that band wagon already. You should know exactly what I’m talking about, you are the master of a positive or negative spin on facts.

No idea what you are referring to there. I try to be open minded about others without being so open minded that my brain falls out.

Can you say the same?

If so, it is certainly not evident from your posts.

Peace
Sep. 6, 2010, 02:38 PM
No idea what you are referring to there. I try to be open minded about others without being so open minded that my brain falls out.

Can you say the same?

If so, it is certainly not evident from your posts.

Nor is it evident from your post.

egontoast
Sep. 6, 2010, 03:02 PM
really? Well that is interesting. Maybe you have not actually read what I have written.

I have never used or promoted rollkur (meaning the broader term before re-defined as being the extreme of LDR)

I have tried to be open minded about training methods whatever the label.

In my view abusive riding does not have anything to with labels. Abusive riding is abusive riding and I don't think anyone here promotes that.

siegi b.
Sep. 6, 2010, 03:29 PM
Alicien - that article in Eurodressage doesn't need any translation.... just substitute - blah, blah, blah, I'm great, blah, blah, I'm so smart, blah, blah, I'm the best, blah, blah, blah.....

And I didn't even charge a fee! :-)

Coreene
Sep. 6, 2010, 04:08 PM
I think that you will find that any journo at the NY Times will tell you that a news story is just that, the news, and that opinions belong in columns or on editorial pages. Even those who didn't just graduate from J school.

Peace
Sep. 6, 2010, 04:32 PM
Hmmm has anyone noticed that the News has changed:lol::lol: It is hardly bias free.

DownYonder
Sep. 6, 2010, 04:44 PM
- blah, blah, blah, I'm great, blah, blah, I'm so smart, blah, blah, I'm the best, blah, blah, blah.....)

Isn't that the Dutch anthem these days? :lol:

Peace
Sep. 6, 2010, 04:54 PM
Anky didn't want the government looking at her methods. She was going to lose this battle.

Karoline
Sep. 6, 2010, 05:08 PM
I have a journalism minor, a mass media communication major and MA in Media Ecology. Of course every single piece of news you see is filtered by someone's bias, perception, situation. Look at the coverage of the war or politics, the same situation can be interpreted many way. If you want who what when where why and how you almost have to go to reuters http://www.reuters.com/ but then you can contemplate why they pic the featured story they do, or the pics they do, its never ending.

Just selecting a story over another one is already a form of bias.

My take on Eurodressage is if you dont like it, dont read it. There are plenty of alternatives out there. She makes no bone about what she believes dressage is supposed to be. It happens to meet the FEI definition too, at least the definition we still have and so a lot of people will like her site and by the same token a lot of people wont. Big deal.

To those who still say they need the research to make up their mind, I agree. It seems to me that if the FEI could afford a several million new building they could have found a couple to put this issue to bed since it represents a real threat to the livelihood of the FEI long term. Yes, I know the building was a gift. And from a journalistic pov, to have the husband of an elected president of a company gift a brand new building to his wife's business would get me to want to seriously investigate what other kinds of gifts may be going on, especially if he had been suspended on doping allegations. But saying doping allegations probably make me bias.

meupatdoes
Sep. 6, 2010, 05:13 PM
I didn't think there could be anything more hilarious than that Anky of all people sued somebody for linking her to rollkur, but the fact that she sued and then ran before it even got rolling is just .... :lol::lol::lol:

Guess she really doesn't like to show up places she knows she won't win.

Mainstreet
Sep. 6, 2010, 05:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChYRIEM6v6E

Mainstreet
Sep. 6, 2010, 05:23 PM
Enjoy,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChYRIEM6v6E

ginger708
Sep. 6, 2010, 05:42 PM
Many views will change when you will work for 10+ years in the field after graduating from college. From reading your posts it seems that you view already colored by your personal opinions and not a cold headed pure journalism, but may be you just don't see how your emotions/opinions color your writing.

Most journalists want to be a whistle blowers. I find it that most journalists don’t lie and try to expose what is being kept hush-hush. And yes, most journalist just like most politicians would omit the side that they want to hide, and spotlight the side that they are passionate about. Including you!

It's easy to be in control when you write about something that don't touch your heart, but when someone has a history with the subject for many years and has a strong feelings about it = you may find that it's quite difficult not to twist the truth just a little bit, so difficult not to brush aside what you don't want to read/face, so difficult to report both sides of the coin, so tempting to put your spin on it, etc... you yourself closed your eyes on some of the things that doesn't help to portray your point... Your choice of words describing sides are clear indication where your heart belongs: “band wagon” can be referred to both RK band wagon and anti-RK band wagon, but it’s a strong coloring of the “other” side ;)

Weather you don't agree with using "her media platform to push her agenda" if you go and re-read your posts, you'll see that you are starting to be guilty of that as well, yet you are still in college = the purest time of your journalist career.

if some reporters will not report other side of the story, there ALWAYS will be somebody who would! And that goes both ways... that's the reason why those RK debates are supper long... most report only one side and there is always somebody who would try to balance that one sided post/opinion/report out.

Um I've been out of college for 11 years and took a job as an graphic artist after I got out of college. So even though I graduated with a BA in journalism I did not use it.

Actually I would be quite interested in your opinion of what my feelings are towards Rollkur.

Peace
Sep. 6, 2010, 05:43 PM
Those are funny...The one's with Anky cracked me up.

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Sep. 6, 2010, 05:48 PM
Priceless!

Dressage Art
Sep. 6, 2010, 05:51 PM
I have tried to be open minded about training methods whatever the label.

:lol: I almost spilled my drink.

Anyway, back to the original topic of RK/LDR

ThreeFigs
Sep. 6, 2010, 05:58 PM
The original topic was a lawsuit. You are, as usual, confused.

Try to keep up, DA!

Karoline
Sep. 6, 2010, 06:16 PM
But a lawsuit ABOUT RK/LDR so how far off is she really?

Karoline
Sep. 6, 2010, 06:18 PM
I miss that one, can you post?

egontoast
Sep. 6, 2010, 06:19 PM
Nobody can stop you from being combative, rude, accusatory, and snippy, but at least please don't claim that you are an angel



Wow. Nasty. You have just described yourself.

I said I was open minded. I never claimed to be an angel. ;-)

egontoast
Sep. 6, 2010, 06:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChYRIEM6v6E

:lol::lol::lol:

Karoline
Sep. 6, 2010, 06:25 PM
What would be fun is if Larry King invited Astrid on his show. Imagine the world audience looking at pics of RK, right before WEG and the Olympics, wonder what the reaction would be.

Jeito
Sep. 6, 2010, 06:36 PM
Imagine the world audience looking at pics of RK, right before WEG and the Olympics, wonder what the reaction would be.

Boredom??? Do you really think with the world the way it is right now anyone else gives a ^$&%* what a bunch of people wearing top hats and tails do :lol:?

Karoline
Sep. 6, 2010, 06:44 PM
I think time will tell. I believe fear of public opinion is precisely why Sjeff dropped his lawsuit.

Lexi
Sep. 6, 2010, 07:07 PM
Bwahahahaha :lol: :lol: :lol:

Best thing to show up on this thread. And, fwiw, I don't disciminate. . .I think they're all buffoons ;)
Ditto on both counts!

Oh no, Mainstreet you've been reported to Larry King Himself by the "Blue Tongue" FB group:

via Larry King Live: Is is ok for someone to use Larry King to defame a journalist? http://www.cnn.com/feedback/ In this video the journalist Astrid is being painted as someone who is a sold out xenophobe. All because she wont support this kind of horse training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ForoS1...P7lc0 -that's the official dressage coach for Holland and the person who sued and then dropped his lawsuit riding, and this is his wife: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GQ7n6UFVok&feature=related a 3 time olympic gold medalist and the riders she has inspired. How would you like to be that horse? Please Larry ask Astrid on your show so she can defend herself. www.eurodressage.com (http://www.eurodressage.com)
See More
CNN.com - Contact Us
www.cnn.com (http://www.cnn.com)
24 minutes ago · Comment · LikeUnlike · View Feedback (1)Hide Feedback (1) · Share · Flag

If you want to see Astrid for real on Larry King go to the contact us, click on the news tip box and fill in some info about the video and how Larry is being shown in support of defaming a fellow journalist.

I sent an alert re: my own posting yesterday expecting this to be promptly edited along with some other posts as I wasn't inclined to comply with a nasty attack out of nowhere and figured the mods would moderate as they saw fit, so I left. had the person explained their issue and asked nicely instead of attacking it would have been edited in 20 minutes, no problem! instead it was up for more than a day.

if anyone has an issue with the remainder of the post, send me a PM!

ThreeFigs
Sep. 6, 2010, 07:09 PM
These "discussions" will never end as long as some people refuse to see the difference between RK and LDR.

It's a matter of degrees, people. LDR involves no force. It asks the horse to stretch low, deep, round. Period. That can't be "forced".

To put a horse's chin on his chest (RK) involves force. Pulling it there.

That's the difference.

I agree, the general public, given all else that's going on in the world, doesn't give a hill of beans about what a bunch of DQ's are up to. Seriously. Maybe in Europe, where horse sports are more mainstream, but not here in the USA.

ThreeFigs
Sep. 6, 2010, 07:29 PM
Thanks for posting that, Mainstreet. Pretty funny!

Gestalt
Sep. 6, 2010, 07:45 PM
Boredom??? Do you really think with the world the way it is right now anyone else gives a ^$&%* what a bunch of people wearing top hats and tails do :lol:?

I believe Americans are sensitive to animal abuse. And some pictures and videos I've seen, of horses with their tongues hanging out and their heads reefed back to their chin, just might appear to those Americans as abusive.

And to egontoast, your cliche about labels is tired.

Lexi
Sep. 6, 2010, 07:48 PM
I have seen rollers used on jumpers.and I've seen rollkur used on dressage horses!


The horse is not 'jumping' -I think that depends on what your definition of "is" is!


he is taking a small Xactually it's a small vertical


and the lightweight chains helped teach him to pick up his feet....and never marked him in any manner.sounds remarkably similar to what people get a 6 month vacation and years of pariah status for!


You folks ride with hoof protectors and cannon protectors....are you sure they are 'safe' with no residual harm?not 100% sure, no, the materials might eventually be proven to cause cancer or something, but unlike jumping a horse in chains, unaltered protective boots would never be a violation of FEI abuse rules!

Dressage Art
Sep. 6, 2010, 08:40 PM
Isn't that the Dutch anthem these days? :lol:

:lol:

egontoast
Sep. 6, 2010, 08:56 PM
To paraphrase Isabel W.

Everyone hates a winner.

SmplySweet1021
Sep. 6, 2010, 09:17 PM
Isn't that the Dutch anthem these days? :lol:

Thanks for the low blow against my country. It's rude and uncalled for.


To the poster stating the Anky didn't want the government looking into her.......the Dutch love her so I don't know which government you were referring to.

The issue you all have with Anky is just that an issue with Anky, no need to bring the Netherlands into things.

Bats79
Sep. 6, 2010, 09:26 PM
This is being discussed on the other thread. Looks like a poor translation. Someone put up an even worse google type translation on the other. Perhaps an objective? Dutch speaker will give us a better translation.

Eurodressage cannot be objective in this. The item comes across as petty and gloating and not good journalism. Surprise. Surprise.


And this reeks of sour grapes.