Comment on these feet, please - UPDATED with new photos, p.3

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Please comment on these feet (http://www.aledobb.com/ezzell/feet_web/).

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>7 year old QH gelding
<LI>Currently eventing at Training level (recently moved up from Novice); will be going BN, possibly Novice
<LI>Lives in Arizona (now Tucson, will be Phoenix)
<LI>Last shod April 12; photos were taken May 2 (so about 3 weeks post-shoeing)
[/list]

Comments?

Thanks.

(Edited to add update notice.)
________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[This message was edited by Risk-Averse Rider on May. 09, 2004 at 11:17 PM.]

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Please comment on these feet (http://www.aledobb.com/ezzell/feet_web/).

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>7 year old QH gelding
<LI>Currently eventing at Training level (recently moved up from Novice); will be going BN, possibly Novice
<LI>Lives in Arizona (now Tucson, will be Phoenix)
<LI>Last shod April 12; photos were taken May 2 (so about 3 weeks post-shoeing)
[/list]

Comments?

Thanks.

(Edited to add update notice.)
________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[This message was edited by Risk-Averse Rider on May. 09, 2004 at 11:17 PM.]

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Nobody wants to comment?!?!?

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[LMH]

I am sure someone will jump in http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

I guess the foot threads seemed to cause some controversy so I am betting that many who would normally comment just don't want the thrashing the comes with the comments http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[reefy!]

RAR - are you getting this horse?

I can't comment on his feet (they look okay, except that LH outside heel looks a little funky - I'm no expert!).

[Posting Trot]

Well I'll throw in my 2 cents.

It's hard to tell from the angle of the photos, but the feet look as though they fall into the classic "long toe-underrun heel" category. The solar view shows nice healthy frogs, but I'd ask the farrier about trimming the toes back a bit and trying to encourage the heels to grow down rather than forward.

How well does the horse move?

[Risk-Averse Rider]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> How well does the horse move? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, given that I can only tell that a horse is "off" if it's spouting arterial blood, I'm not the person to ask about how he moves ;-)

He reaches under himself nicely...

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[reefy!]

I didn't know there was such a cute palomino in Tucson - I'm green with envy!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Risk-Averse Rider]

With any luck, he won't be in Tucson much longer... he'll be in Phoenix ;-)

He's such a sweetie - just like Prozac Pony, only blonde (and his hocks bend).

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[Bensmom]

Hi RAR!

I'll be happy to run off at the mouth, whether I know whereof I speak, or not.( This http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif is my farrier vigorously agreeing! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif )

This actually looks as if the horse is a work in progress -- he looks as if he was LT/LH and someone is making an effort to correct this and to grow better foot.

I'd like to see more support farther back, and I believe that to really correct heel that is running forward, the heel should be floated and given an opportunity to grow straight down instead of forward.

My guess would be that at one time, this horse was pretty badly LT/LH, because it appears that the tubules (ack! I just realized I can't spell that word! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ) are still all growing forward in a slant from the coronet band, instead of down.

I'd also be willing to bet that the medial/lateral balance needs checking and possibly more corrections, based on the solar view.

Overall, not too terribly bad. Are you, in fact, getting this horse? Has he been x-rayed, etc.? I know you've all heard this before, but I really believe in checking the balance of feet with x-rays to be sure you are on the right track shoeing wise.

hth,

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Bensmom... LT/LH? Where's the fruitbat?

Long toe, low heels? Just guessing - I have no idea what that means.

With any luck &lt;fingers tightly crossed, while knocking vigorously on wood, startling the cat sprawled across my desk&gt;, he'll arrive here Saturday, and be vetted on Monday.

I will be sure to annoy the vet & farrier by being anal-retentive about his feet ;-) And will get more photos when he's here & settled in.

Anyone else care to chime in?

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[Dianna]

What a handsome fellow.

I have never liked it when shoes are brought around to either side of the frog - I have always felt it was an invitation for a corn.

What are you going to do with him? Obviously you are doing a pre-purchase. I would let the vet tell you what they think you need to do (ie x-rays). Hopefully you have a vet that has the backbone to be honest... there are so few around these days.... so many don't want to make a definite statement about a horse's suitability unless there is a glaring problem.

If you want to ask a question - no matter how silly you may think the question is - ask it... you are paying for their time.

Who will your farrier be?

[Bensmom]

Yep, you got it. Long toe, low heel.

I'd shoot x-rays of the feet -- most do navicular films as part of a pre-purchase, correct? (I have bought all of mine with no pre-purchase exams, so I wasn't sure, and of course, have the enormous vet bills to show for it! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif ) With those, you can see if there is anything hiding in his feet to be concerned about at this point.

If your vet will do a lateral view and an A/P view (side and dead on front view) while you are at it, that will help your farrier plan for how to shoe him.

Good luck!

He's beautiful, btw http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

[lindac]

Those feet look very similar to my horses feet 8 months ago. He had the long toe/under run heels situation too. He would look fine right after being shod, but his angles would deteriorate quickly.He also developed a flare in one front hoof. I started with a different farrier who used similar techniques to correct the situation. I know the shoeing looks kind of weird but the farrier assured me he would look much better in about 3 shoeings. It actually took about 4-5 to get him perfect. His feet look great now. He holds his angles until his next reset.
The only thing that I don't like in the pictures is how one of the frogs is pointing off center. But that is probably something that cannot be corrected in one or two shoeings.

[Txfarrier11]

I saw that frog, too. I think its overgrown and just kind of leaning off that way. If that was a trimmed frog pointing off that far in left field I doubt he could walk more than 3-4 steps without falling down.

[Cherry]

Yes, what a nice looking horse!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The angle that these pictures were taken are not conducive to rendering opinions... In the front shot the horse is not standing with weight on both legs, so it's hard to see what the hoof on the right actually looks like... The side views should be taken directly from the side and near ground level--these were at too much of an angle--can't tell exactly where the heels are, or if they are tending toward underrun... When shoes are on it's hard to tell if the hooves are trimmed adequately... In some of the shots it looks as though the heels might be okay, but the toes still look long... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

At any rate--in the photo of the horse moving his heels look okay... But I'm with whomever said it looks like this horse's feet look like a "work in progress"...

He sure is pretty--hope he works out for you!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif If not, you can send him to me!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"The best things in life aren't things..." author unknown

[Lookout]

Are the pictures still up? I can't seem to load them.

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Photos were still up just now when I checked. Might have been a server glitch.

Is there a thread somewhere that talks about how best to take hoof photos? If all goes as planned, he should be here Saturday, and I can get some better shots. And he's being vetted Monday, so I should be able to get some shots of him with his shoes pulled.

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[Riverdale]

This horse basically has good quality feet, just could use some more good farrier work.

This farrier is on the right track. This is a much better then average shoeing job. I agree that it appears they are working on correcting a long heel long toe situation.

You could get this done faster by going barefoot, or using a New Balance or Cytec type shoeing.

www3.sympatico.ca/vnc

[Bensmom]

RAR,

I've found what works best is to get on floor level with the camera -- on the post your feet pics thread, there are some pics, I think, of my vet actually shooting the pics on a hoof balancing for a friend's mare. I posted them somewhere, so if they aren't on that thread, I'll find 'em.

Here are the ones I took of Buzz's feet, that MCMIV put into a single file for me -- there is probably still some distortion from angle, but I tried to take them so that it wasn't a problem.

Good luck with him!

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Thanks - I figured this was going to entail crawling around on the floor!!

We need a hydraulic lift that we could raise up to a comfortable level, so that we could get "even" photos.

And maybe the floor of the lift could be a non-scratch, optically clear, distortion-free material, so we could get shots of the bottoms of their feet from underneath...

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[Lookout]

These sure do not look like long toes to me. What guideline was used to determine that, according to the people who say this toe is long?

According to Duckett's Dot and Gene Ovnicek's way of measuring this toe is already shorter than that guideline plus the shoe looks set back behind the edge of the toe, effectively making it even shorter still.

[LMH]

Lookout-could the toe just be appearing shorter according to Gene,et al guidelines because the frog is looking longer? I have seen some feet with contracted heels where the frog grows long and skinny-so if the overall foot shape where a bit different, the toe would then look longer?

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Could someone please explain Duckett's Dot and Gene Ovnicek's way of measuring?

Thanks.

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[Bensmom]

Lookout -- If you look at most of the comments, I think you'll find that most said it appeared that the hooves had a "work in progress" look to them.

I personally didn't think that the toes looked too long at present, but the appearance of the heels, plus the fact that the tubules appear to be slanted really forward in the hoof indicate to me that this horse was at one time LT/LH.

You can also end up with a longer, skinner frog if over time, the horse has had long toes.

At the present time, it does not appear to me (keeping in mind that I am NOT AN EXPERT) that this horse's toes are too long. In fact, they look pretty good, *but* I still would like to see more and sturdier heel.

That may just be a personal perference because I have several horses that mean a lot to me that have injuries that not enough support under the tendons/ligaments of the leg was the primary cause and one in particular who stays sounder with way more heel than he used to have.

RAR -- if you do a search on both terms, there are probably gobs of websites that explain the theory. My farrier has discussed it with me, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to try to explain it to anyone else http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
Lookout-could the toe just be appearing shorter according to Gene,et al guidelines because the frog is looking longer?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes of course, but then how do the people saying the toes look long make this judgement?
RAR- quick and dirty - frog is 2/3 of the length of the foot; apex of frog to outer edge of wall is 1/3 of foot.

[Bensmom]

Again, Lookout, go back and read what I and others, posted above.

No one seems to have made the judgment that this toe is too long. Just have read the foot saying that it shows signs of having once been too long.

Am I missing something here?

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

[Lookout]

Bensmom, go back and read what others have posted. other people, besides yourself. 3 people said the horse had long toes, one of whom said they were in the process of being reversed, which means they're still long. I'd like to know how that's determined.

[Posting Trot]

Well, I was one of the people that said that I thought perhaps the hooves had a long toe/under-run heel look to them. And I also said that it was hard to tell given the angle of the photos (I was referring not to the solar shots but to the side shots).

And I also offered my opinion as "throwing out my 2 cents," i.e. giving something of very little intrinsic value.

I'm by no means an expert at horse's hooves; I'm not even a talented amateur. I learn more from these hoof threads than I contribute.

The final question I asked was how well the horse moved, because I think sometimes it's easy to get caught up in the shape of the hoof without really considering how well it functions. It may not matter exactly how perfectly a hoof conforms to the ideal-type if the horse does its job comfortably on that (slightly imperfect) hoof.

[Bensmom]

I can't obviously speak for anyone else, but as I explained above, looking at the way the tubules grow down from the coronet band, I see an indication of an underrun heel, which typically goes hand in hand (or is that hoof by hoof &lt;g&gt; ) with a long toe. Heels don't disappear and collapse by themselves, as a general rule. I have a horse that without the mechanical lift provided by his spiffy shoes, would crush his heels no matter how short his toes are, but in my experience, that is pretty rare. He's just built so that his weight lands proportionately behind his feet, so his heel would collapse and slide forward, no matter what.

I didn't see the same type of foot/pastern/leg angle on these photos, so I made an assumption by looking at the heels that the low, forward running heel was, at one time, coupled with a too long toe. ( "In the process of being corrected" I used to mean the whole hoof, and its problem, which would be both the Long Toe and the Low Heel. The heel takes longer to fix than the toe. Just because it is still in the process of correction, does not equal the toes still being long. )

The long, thin frog indicated that to me as well.

A well respected local vet seems to be of the opinion that once the tubules have collapsed and are running forward like that, they cannot be fixed. I don't agree with him in that regard, simply because on my little horse we've done it.

We shortened the toe (step one) and then cut the heel off (step 2), leaving air between the foot and the shoe and (step 3) added a wedge to the back of a straight bar shoe. Darned if he didn't grow pretty straight heel, straight down.

He has lots of "jewelry" from his OTTBT days, all of which we are 99.9% sure relates to his very poor shoeing when he was racing, including the old bow.

I didn't use any scientific method and as I explained above, don't even understand enough about taking the measurements you are describing to think I know enough to explain it to someone else.

I may be wrong, but I've said that explanation, claiming to be anything *but* and expert, from the beginning.

The only things I claim to know for sure are those things that work for *my* two horses that are my special needs cases, and I regret it every single time when for some reason, I agree to changes being made that I know don't work. So, I'm not doing that again. For instance, my big horse has had his shoes pulled and lived out 24/7 with regular trims by a competent farrier for over a year.

The only thing that helped was my pocketbook. The only thing that has helped him is having very good farriers put good trims and good shoes on him.

So, my guys I know for sure, anything else is just my 2 cents worth, which is worth even less than that http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Posting trot -- I've learned so much here too -- hey, slb, hosshoer and Dutch, where are you guys? What do you think?

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

[Risk-Averse Rider]

So much helpful information - can't wait to see him tomorrow and get better shots of his feet! (Well, and scritch his ears and love all over him, too... ;-)

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[spirithorse]

I am an equine physiologist,myotherapist and barefooter of horses........I have made decisive opinions based upon your first group of pictures but will wait till you post new ones. There are some problems that will create more problems................

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[LMH]

spirithorse-just curious about a couple of things. I popped over to your website and one or two things jumped out at me.

You have a picture of a pinto horse and mention he is incorrectly landing heel first rather than "almost flat." Most research regarding the correct loading of the foot supports the idea that heel first landing IS correct. A nearly flat landing is not considered correct.

Would you care to comment on this?

Also is that you in the jumping segment?

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[spirithorse]

Yes it is incorrect for the heel to come down first. Now the data I have seen shows the horse placing the foot down almost flat. In other words, if the heel lands first several negative things occur. First and foremost the impact forces are centralized in the heel thus compacting the heel. Second the impact forces are not distributed throughout the foot as designed which results in major damage to the foot and ankle. These are the reasons so many racehorses crack and/or fracture the sesimoid bones.

I am not the jumper in the three moving images, that is a well known West Coast jumper. I am the one in the single image.

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[LMH]

well spirithorse we will just have to agree to disagree on heel first landing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. I am sure some other foot gurus will pipe in here-but flat foot landing is the cause of lots of problems.

Just to be sure we are on the same page, what data do you have the supports flat as opposed to heel first landing?

From Jaime Jackson to Gene O (granted these two gathered their information from studying wild horses),their data clearly supports heel first landing.
Can someone pipe in on the findings of Bowker? Paige (or is it Page?)--don't they also support heel first landing? Redden?

So-who is the well known jumper rider? Curiousity is killing me!

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[spirithorse]

the heel does not take the impact of the landing, if it does there is something wrong. I saw a paper written several years ago by someone who used computer enhanced imaginging. We may be saying the same thing, except that I emphasize that the heel does not take the impact. I stated the heel touches first but at such a slight angle that the foot is hitting at vertually the same time. I am currently seeking corporate funding to do research which will verify this and other findings. I have university willing but we need funding........and on the line there has been research done with force plates and other equipment, however, the horses are constrained in a non-natural manner, ie the bridle.

I woould like to tell you who the rider is but I cannot. He is from S. Cal...................

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[Risk-Averse Rider]

spirithorse - when you say you are the one in the single image, do you mean this photo (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com/images/Allan-Buck-Pics/allan-toby-jump.jpg)?

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[Risk-Averse Rider]

If anyone is interested in a non-distorted view of the famous SoCal jumper, look here (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com/images/SB-Orig-Pics/animate-horse.gif).

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[spirithorse]

yes and why?

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[Risk-Averse Rider]

I haven't gone through your entire site, so I don't know if that's the only single image on the site. You said it was you in the single image - just trying to follow where you had pointed. (Are you jumping in the Spirit Bridle?)

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[spirithorse]

Yes, and so is the So Cal jumper who is not using a helmet which he should be.

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[Risk-Averse Rider]

&lt;g&gt;

I wasn't even going to open THAT can o' worms...

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[spirithorse]

I know of the can of worms...........the helmet saved me on the gray in the photo...so it is always a helmet on a horse!

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Isn't it more effective to wear the helmet yourself, instead of putting it on the horse?

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[spirithorse]

BELIEVE me sometimes I think the horses need it for their protection............oh I'm sorry they do not need the rider. But I use one all the time cause my head is not hard as concrete.

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[Risk-Averse Rider]

A perfect example of why BOTH horse & rider need helmets:

Enter at A, Working Trot (http://www.aledobb.com/ezzell/faceplant.wmv)

And now, I am (finally) off to bed, so I can get up early in the morning and go off to the barn to wait impatiently for the arrival of Mr. Golden Toes, so that I can take better hoof shots of him, and stir up more controversy ;-)

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[Lookout]

I believe LMH's description of a slightly heel first landing is correct however also agree that the pinto is not landing in a physiologically healthy way. I believe this has entirely to do with the hoof form. I am curious how you intend to verify your findings with the proposed research as the landing is dependent on and can be manipulated entirely by manipulating heel height. IOW will all the horses in the study have identical hoof form as a control? The pinto's landing would be more correct if his heels were lowered.

[spirithorse]

Lookout,

Hoof form has only a partial impact on hoof placement, the other is the shoulder which defines the length of stride and placement of the hoof.

Heel height should be approximately one and a half inches and no less.........the severity of the angle of landing of the heel is based upon the shortness of the heel and the length of the toe, however, that is effected by the length of the stride and the placement of the foot in the forward position upon impact.

I have already shown this is true with racehorses which were short heeled and long toed. We lengthened the heel and shortened the toe over a period of time and the horses suffered less stress to the forelegs, ie. fractures, tendon injuries and other lower leg and foot problems.

As for the pintos landing, the heels were correct, the problem was directly caused by the injury to the muscle structure of the right shoulder.

All horses that will be in the study will have correct hooves. Proper heel and toe length along with level from side to side and front to rear along with flat soles.

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[LMH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spirithorse:
Lookout,

Hoof form has only a partial impact on hoof placement, the other is the shoulder which defines the length of stride and placement of the hoof.

Heel height should be approximately one and a half inches and no less.........the severity of the angle of landing of the heel is based upon the shortness of the heel and the length of the toe, however, that is effected by the length of the stride and the placement of the foot in the forward position upon impact.

How did you reach your conclusion about heel heighth? In other words what data supports this conclusion?

How do you compare this information to the wild horse studies?

What if obtaining this heel height means ignoring the live sole plane?

I have already shown this is true with racehorses which were short heeled and long toed. We lengthened the heel and shortened the toe over a period of time and the horses suffered less stress to the forelegs, ie. fractures, tendon injuries and other lower leg and foot problems.

what about Bowker's research that supports higher heel height contributes to navicular pain in horses?

What if this tall heel heighth results in the coffin bone being tipped forward?


As for the pintos landing, the heels were correct, the problem was directly caused by the injury to the muscle structure of the right shoulder.

All horses that will be in the study will have correct hooves. Proper heel and toe length along with level from side to side and front to rear along with flat soles.

so would you agree with trimming to the live sole plane or not?
How do you determine "level" with regard to conformational deformities?
What about sole concavity?
What is your criteria for a "correct foot"-and how would that differ if a horse and conformational issues?

Rev. E. A. Buck
http://www.supreme-cavalry.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[slb]

Spirithorse....just for clarification...where exactly do you measure heel height? From what point to what point does your 1.5" fall?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[LMH]

I was going to ask that question as well-but question in addition for anyone-even at 1.5 inches when measured from hairline down as a MINIMUM to me seems like you could end up with some terribly tall heels.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spirithorse:
Hoof form has only a partial impact on hoof placement, the other is the shoulder which defines the length of stride and placement of the hoof.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The shoulder angle (since it is not attached by a joint to the skeleton) is determined by the heel height.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Heel height should be approximately one and a half inches and no less.........the severity of the angle of landing of the heel is based upon the shortness of the heel and the length of the toe, however, that is effected by the length of the stride and the placement of the foot in the forward position upon impact.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The length of stride is affected by the shoulder angle which is affected by the heel height.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
As for the pintos landing, the heels were correct, the problem was directly caused by the injury to the muscle structure of the right shoulder.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't know which problem was directly caused, but it seems to me an injury would be a result of a problem, not the cause.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>All horses that will be in the study will have correct hooves. Proper heel and toe length along with level from side to side and front to rear along with flat soles.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again this seems to be reverse order of thinking. What is correct? Wouldn't you want to do research to find out what is correct? And some incorrect ones to show what problem it causes?

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Here, as promised (but a day late - sorry) are what I hope are more useful photos of his feet:

Foot Shots - Second Attempt (http://www.aledobb.com/ezzell/feet_web2/)

In case anyone wants to compare, here is the first set of photos:

Foot Shots - First Attempt (http://www.aledobb.com/ezzell/feet_web/)

Have at it, guys... and thanks!

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Also, in case it matters, here are left & right side body shots.

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[LMH]

RAR-I just think your blonde horse is adorable...

Your feet shots are MUCH better-in the future, try to get a little lower to the ground for the A-P shots as well-like you did on the M-L shots...but much easier to see http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[Risk-Averse Rider]

LMH - Yes, I wasn't thinking (happens so often these days ;-) when I was doing the A-P shots.

I think he's adorable, too.

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[JB]

I too am dying to know about the 1 1/2" heel height, minimum http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Lookout]

I think your horse's worst problem is his severely underrun heels. I would correct this with barefoot trimming (don't know how else) because you want to bring the weightbearing point further back and a shoe on that tends to crush it. Also there is some heavy duty Lateral cartilage bulge on one of the fronts (right?)

[LMH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
I think your horse's worst problem is his severely underrun heels. I would correct this with barefoot trimming (don't know how else) because you want to bring the weightbearing point further back and a shoe on that tends to crush it. Also there is some heavy duty Lateral cartilage bulge on one of the fronts (right?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

'splain please http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif-Lateral cartilage bulge? What is this and what causes it?

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[Lookout]

Look at the LF lateral view - the hairline is bulged. This is the lateral cartilage bulging up out of the hoof capsule. It comes from the wall being too long in that area and/or contraction forcing it upwards and/or upward tilted palmar processes forcing it up and out of the hoof capsule.

[LMH]

thank you--I understand the hairline bulge...I just didn't connect the name.

Blonde day.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[spirithorse]

People, please excuss my miss representing my own measurements.....Maximum heigth should never be more than the 1 1/2 but normal would be one inch from the coronet band.....

The working horses on the ranch many years ago were all turned out without shoes on and with one inch heels. When we would bring them in for work the feet were in great shape, only requiring minor trimming.

The sole should never been concaved out because that is the impact zone for the entire foot. A correct foot is in the shape of the coronet band with the naturl wall angle outward from the sides.

As for conformation deformatites? Describe what you are refering to. Rarely does the foot have a conformation defect and if it does such as "club foot" that usually is correctable.

As for heel height determining shoulder angle, please explain, because the heel angle directly effects the angle of the pastern bones.

As for the pinto.......it remains sound after I worked on it and repaired the damage. Its feet have always had heel and the horse did not limp prior to the accident.

Correct is the way the Creator designed the horse and not the way man determines. Apparently I must have some correct knowledge as every horse I have worked on and taught the rider the knowledge I have, has stayed sound.

Inquiring minds should always seek to learn.

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[spirithorse]

Risk-Adverse Rider,

I have checked out your new images and your horse has underslung heels just like the TB's at the racetrack, and the heels appear to be contracted inward. With the heels like that the horse is putting pressure upward into the walls infront of the heel bulb. Also by the images presented the front toes appear to have to much angle in them.

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[LMH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spirithorse:
People, please excuss my miss representing my own measurements.....Maximum heigth should never be more than the 1 1/2 but normal would be one inch from the coronet band.....

that sounds better-at least the LESS than 1.5 not MORE than 1.5

The working horses on the ranch many years ago were all turned out without shoes on and with one inch heels. When we would bring them in for work the feet were in great shape, only requiring minor trimming.

The sole should never been concaved out because that is the impact zone for the entire foot. A correct foot is in the shape of the coronet band with the naturl wall angle outward from the sides.

I agree it should not be concaved OUT-but most wild horse studies show hooves concaved IN as opposed to flat footed.

here is a link that shows nice concavity of a mustang foot:
http://tribeequus.com/RF_obl_sole2.jpg

As for conformation deformatites? Describe what you are refering to. Rarely does the foot have a conformation defect and if it does such as "club foot" that usually is correctable.
I meant limb deviations that might ultimately effect the foot-like one that paddles or wings

As for heel height determining shoulder angle, please explain, because the heel angle directly effects the angle of the pastern bones.

I will let Lookout handle this one since she brought it up http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As for the pinto.......it remains sound after I worked on it and repaired the damage. Its feet have always had heel and the horse did not limp prior to the accident.

Correct is the way the Creator designed the horse and not the way man determines. Apparently I must have some correct knowledge as every horse I have worked on and taught the rider the knowledge I have, has stayed sound.

just curious-where did you learn about hoof care-have you studied any of the more "prominent" hoof care folks-like Gene or Jaime or Strasser or even Redden for that matter?

Inquiring minds should always seek to learn.

couldn't agree more

Rev. E. A. Buck
http://www.supreme-cavalry.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[spirithorse]

LMH,

Convexed is outward and so concave as done by farriers would enhance the impact forces to the foot. Horses that are "out and about" cause the concavity to the sole by the concussion of the impact, and so it is very minimal.

With every horse that I have worked on that paddled or winged, the equalizing of the foot eleminated the paddling/winging.

My hoof care came from the ranch and from an old cavalry farrier who believed in shoes only for correcting the foot. At the request of a friend I checked into the Strasser method and am not convinced, mainly because I have come across bad hoof work using that method. Not to say there is not something there to offer, just have not been convinced. As I always say, everyone has something good to offer, but the old adage buyer beware is always there.

I am not the originator of some of my theories, they have been around since dirt, just that the knowledge I have gained since 1988, regarding the operating mechanism of the anatomy of the horse, has allowed me to prove and disprove things I have been taught over the last 40+ years.

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[LMH]

Interesting background-I always find it fascinating to see where people learn and get ideas http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am not sure I agree that natural concavity is "minimal"-I think it depends on the individual horse-I do not agree with paring sole to get concavity however.

Do you have any pictures of a horse that you have trimmed?

Also from your comment regarding shoes "only to correct the foot"-does that mean you prefer horses to be barefoot whenever possible?

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[spirithorse]

Barefoot as much as possible...if riding over rocking ground use OLD MACS, but keep shoes off the hoof unless you must correct a problem and the shoe will help.

To date the only photos I have are of my stallion, but I cannot get to them for a couple of months.

The natural concaving that occurs is very minimul because the sole is designed to absorb the impact thus what wears is only the surface. I am glad you dont agree with the paring, that is why racehorses have so many injuries...it increases the impact forces.

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[JB]

What is your definition of "minimal" concavity as being natural? Do you have a number of millimeters or some such number that defines "minimal"? Just curious - my 6yo WB, nekked his whole life, has a good deal of concavity while my 20yo TB, shod until 6 months ago, has much less but more then he did when the steel came off.

[Risk-Averse Rider]

spirithorse wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> front toes appear to have to much angle in them <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Would the appropriate angle depend on the angle of the bone(s) inside the hoof?

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[LMH]

RAR-you can tell the correct angle of the foot by looking at the angle of the new growth-just under the hairline...this is the angle the foot wants to be...

Does that make sense?

I ATTEMPTED to show this angle on your foot-it is likely not correct http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif because I am not good at computer lines but maybe you can see what I mean or someone can fix my attempt.

Anyway the redling is what the toe should look like.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[LMH]

Looking back on my line it might even be able to be steeper.

Maybe someone more artistic can help me.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Thanks, LMH.

So... how does one get that appropriate angle?

Gradually, presumably - by shaving more off the sole at the front of the hoof than at the back?

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[spirithorse]

Nice job with the line.........I normally go by the angle I see in relationship to the pasterns, however, I will go and research the approximate angle that is natural for the horse.

RAR, yes you shave the toe down in small increments while leaving the heels grow. Now you must not let the heels out grow the toe so I usually rasp the heels slightly.

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[LMH]

I am going to have to disagree with spirithorse as I understand what he is saying-although it might just be communication here...

I have added some lines to your picture here to show the distortion of long toes/underrun heels.

The blue lines are the foot today-the red line is where it should be (again I might be a little off as I was freehand matching angles-but you can see the idea).

I want to be sure the you realize you are not shaving toe from the bottom of the foot to shorten or bring the toe back-that will thin the sole. You would in essence, back the toe up perpendicular to the ground (sort of)-or perpendiculart to the sole if you were holding the foot like a farrier).

Also in the case of this horse, you would not get the proper angle from leaving heel-look at the heel lines-his heels are already TOO long and are growing forward.

His heels need to be shortened which will bring the weight bearing part of the heel BACK and move his whole foot back underneath him where it should be.

To get the correct angle, you work with both the length of heel and toe-not just one or the other in a case like this.

So this horse has both heels and toes that are too long.

Make sense?

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[JB]

As for getting the toe back - I deal with this constantly with my TB gelding who for far too many years went with LT/LH. The long toe is in essence a toe flare. Be rasping the front of the toe I am preventing that part of the toe from flaring even more. By doing this frequently, over time, I will be able to prevent new growth from following the same old bad pattern, and eventually it will grown down to the ground at the same angle it is coming out from the coronet band.

[Lookout]

Of course this is easy to do with a barefoot horse and one of the clear advantages of barefoot. It is just so difficult to correct this problem with only being able to address it every 4 or 6 weeks at the most.

[Risk-Averse Rider]

LMH - It's clear to me from the photo what you think the foot should look like (rather like his hind feet, actually, right?), but I still don't "get" how you would trim to achieve this.

FWIW, when we did his vet check yesterday, we did x-rays of his front feet, and the vet told me today that the x-rays indicate that the angles of the front feet are pretty much appropriate for the internal structure.

Comments?

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[LMH]

RAR-I think the best way to see how to correct it is to visit:


http://www.ironfreehoof.com

Paige's website has a great trim explanation and some good photos-look for those marked flare or underrun heels.

Marjorie at http://www.barefoothorse.com also has a great photo gallery.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[LMH]

You had commented that his fronts should look more like his hinds-yes and no...the toe angle of the hind is better than the front-but as you can see, the hind heels are still running under...

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[Risk-Averse Rider]

LMH - does the fact that the rear shoe extends beyond where it makes contact with the hoof indicate that his previous farrier was trying to allow his heels to grow down?

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

[LMH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Risk-Averse Rider:
LMH - does the fact that the rear shoe extends beyond where it makes contact with the hoof indicate that his previous farrier was trying to allow his heels to grow down?

________________
Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
"When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, I am sure he WAS trying...that is how most farriers would handle the problem. My understanding is it won't correct underrun heels and can in fact make the problem worse.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[inspired]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:

Yep, I am sure he WAS trying...that is how most farriers would handle the problem. My understanding is it won't correct underrun heels and can in fact make the problem worse.

_When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress _

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have seen it work. Of course, the BIGGEST part of the solution to correcting the heels was in the trim, but the shoe was set back. ...and it worked. I don't see how it would make the problem worse.

[spirithorse]

Setting the shoe back increases the impact forces upon the heel thus it is not a good practise. The trim is the most important attribute to reforming the hoof, and leaving shoes off while the hoof is reformed is the absolute best way to go.

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[Bensmom]

Setting the shoe back *can* work, but only if the heels are "floated" or trimmed, so that there is "air" between the heel and the shoe.

That is the shoeing job I've referenced several times in hoof threads and in his case, it has really worked. The new heel growth went straight, instead of forward, down to meet the shoe.

From what I've observed, just setting the shoe back is not enough. The horse that we corrected it on couldn't be left barefoot at the time we wanted to correct the foot, so my farrier came up with a way to do it while he had shoes on.

It has worked for us.

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

[spirithorse]

Bensmom'

You are correct about floating the heel, the problem is that the majority of farriers are just not good enough to understand the principle.

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[Txfarrier11]

I have thusfar resisted joining in on this tome but curiosity compels me to inquire exactly what you mean by "good enough. Do you mean moraly, physically or technically? You seem to be privy to information unavailable to me.

[spirithorse]

Apparently you are a farrier, so it is not directed at individuals rather a group. Most farriers I have met do not present technical and/or ethical qualities that the individual should. Most farriers do not admit mistakes, most farriers will not do what owners may ask and/or will not take part in an open discussion as to why the owner thinks something should be done.

My old ex-cavalry farrier would always wish to see the horse moving at and away from him as well as from the side. Everyother shoeing he would like to see the horse under saddle so he could see the effect of rider upon the horse. He shod my horse slightly wrong one time and several days later came back without me calling because he had mulled it over in his head and thought something he did was not right.

Now this is not a condemnation of farriers, because I have known many excellent farriers whose only concern is how they can help the horse.

Rev. E. A. Buck
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[xegeba]

I was wondering when you were going to arrive Dutch....

[horse_poor]

hmmmmmmm think i am gonna pop some popcorn and watch THIS one playout

IMHO if dutch is good enough to do aeros feet, hes good enough. as i am sure there are "good enough" farriers out there ----im not even a farrier and find your blanket statement kinda offending....

******************************
molly
**proud member of the calendar- CBW FOR LIFE !!**
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971
www.oasisequestrian.com (http://www.oasisequestrian.com)

[horse_poor]

so x i have been doing some thinking and since i have nothing else to do with the ton of time and energy i have i think i am going to become a dermosadan addict

hows THAT for averting a potential trainweck?

******************************
molly
**proud member of the calendar- CBW FOR LIFE !!**
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971
www.oasisequestrian.com (http://www.oasisequestrian.com)

[xegeba]

Well, it simply is not fair that dutch throws out the morsel and then ditches.

[horse_poor]

well, thats dutch

shows up, gets the job done, and leaves

hes not one to linger around for gossip

******************************
molly
**proud member of the calendar- CBW FOR LIFE !!**
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971
www.oasisequestrian.com (http://www.oasisequestrian.com)

[xegeba]

Did you read about Misty's brothers Iguana, Navarre? You have to start at the very first post she makes. The whole thing is brillant.

[LMH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horse_poor:
hmmmmmmm think i am gonna pop some popcorn and watch THIS one playout


******************************
molly
**proud member of the calendar- CBW FOR LIFE !!**
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971
http://www.oasisequestrian.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

with butter please??

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[horse_poor]

no
i am deathly afraid of snakes and other varmints that have scales

this is evidently my week of nightmares as i have dreamt about an ex bf each night-reading this thread will just conjur more visions of ex's to my mind

btw x i think the fired clients have been rehired.not sure though

******************************
molly
**proud member of the calendar- CBW FOR LIFE !!**
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971
www.oasisequestrian.com (http://www.oasisequestrian.com)

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
FWIW, when we did his vet check yesterday, we did x-rays of his front feet, and the vet told me today that the x-rays indicate that the angles of the front feet are pretty much appropriate for the internal structure.
Comments?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unfortunately this hardly means anything. The coffin bone is the only thing inside the hoof capsule that is "rigid", unchangeable. The "internal structure" is variable by trimming. If the heels and bars are left long the toe of the coffin bone becomes steep. Leave the toe long or lower the heels and the teo angle becomes more shallow. Had the vet put a wooden block under the back half of the horse's foot this would have changed the orientation of the "internal structures" enough to alter what appears to be the angle.

[xegeba]

I had a funny feeling those clients and you would find a way to get along.... just drug the crap outta the mare when dutch comes to do his stuff.

[horse_poor]

actually he decided to just not hot shoe her-she gets funny about it

******************************
molly
**proud member of the calendar- CBW FOR LIFE !!**
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971
www.oasisequestrian.com (http://www.oasisequestrian.com)

[Txfarrier11]

No, I dont find the statement offensive, nor do I find statments like "Most Jews are stingy ,most Blacks are lazy", Etc ,offensive. I'm know for being a crude person

[xegeba]

So Dutch... ARE most that hang their shingle out in your profession, uh.... crappy at what they do?

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horse_poor:
as i am sure there are "good enough" farriers out there ----im not even a farrier and find your blanket statement kinda offending....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He wasn't making a blanket statement - he said "most farriers I have met" - that hardly accounts for the "blanket" farrier population. I would have to agree with him - most farriers *I* have met don't do the job right.

You have a farrier you trust and whose work you like - that is fabulous, truly. I too have one now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[horse_poor]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spirithorse:
Bensmom'

You are correct about floating the heel, the problem is that the majority of farriers are just not good enough to understand the principle.

Rev. E. A. Buck
http://www.supreme-cavalry.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

actually JB he said the above...pretty blanketing to me

but not gonna split hairs.....i think farriers get a bad rap in general when there ARE good ones out there, including mine

******************************
molly
**proud member of the calendar- CBW FOR LIFE !!**
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971
www.oasisequestrian.com (http://www.oasisequestrian.com)

[JB]

Ok, ya got me there - I thought you were referring to his most recent post http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Still, though, I think I'd have to agree with him, sadly http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I think there are a lot of really good farriers out there but think they are good at a small portion of hoof care. Every farrier I've had has been good at something, but not at the whole horse and foot issue, until the one I have now. Some (most) would leave the toes too long and heel underrun. Some would leave the walls flared making the foot appear larger. If I'd only had the farrier I have now, or this one and one other less qualified, I too might think "huh? majority? pshaw..." But in looking at who I've had, and looking at the feet of many friends' horses, I think "majority" isn't too far off the mark http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[spirithorse]

HORSE-POOR,

I earn part of my living correcting what so called farriers have created and that includes the injuries to the muscle structure that are a direct result of the inaccurate trimming and shoeing. As for the word "majority" it is accurate because complaints from owners out weigh compliments, as well as, all one has to do is observe the horses one sees and the majority of horses are incorrect.

I also stipulated that there are excellent farriers out there but they are few and far between. So rare that the average horse owner is confronted by the majority of farriers that are really not qualified nor have the integrity to do the job.

Rev. E. A. Buck
Equine Physiologist
www.supreme-cavalry.com (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com)

[LMH]

JB...

Main Entry: far·ri·er
Pronunciation: 'far-E-&r
Function: noun
Etymology: alteration of Middle English ferrour, from Middle French ferrour blacksmith, from Old French ferreor, from ferrer to fit with iron, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin ferrare, from Latin ferrum iron
: a person who shoes horses

I think Cindy just passed out http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[horse_poor]

i'm just saying.and i think most will agree..people tend to complain about somethign more than sing praises of something.....whether its a farrier, restaurant, stores customer service etc

take this board for example....there are more complaints about their farrier, such as "look at this horses feet-is my farrier on crack?" posts rather than "look at my horses feet and how spectacular they are done"


as i said there are some crappy farriers out there.....but there are also good

ok i am going now-i am cranky-, ts been raining for 2 days straight, aeros leg is hot again, and brown seems to think its not a good thing to pick up his right lead

******************************
molly
**proud member of the calendar- CBW FOR LIFE !!**
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971
www.oasisequestrian.com (http://www.oasisequestrian.com)

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horse_poor:
take this board for example....there are more complaints about their farrier, such as "look at this horses feet-is my farrier on crack?" posts rather than "look at my horses feet and how spectacular they are done"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's because *I* think there ARE more farriers, er, trimmers, um, er, whatever, who seem to have been on crack than not! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif There have actually been threads asking for well trimmed, well shod feet but very few takers.

But yes, people do tend to complain about things more than praise them, whatever "it" may be.

I AM playing with you you know http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LMH - pphhttppp http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[jester1113]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think Cindy just passed out <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

JB - I thought the same thing!!!! Actually, I was wondering if I missed something?!?!

Can I show under an alter?
ISO 5" 18mm hollow mouth full cheek snaffle!

[horse_poor]

i agree JB

but for whatever reason..the comment rubbd me the wrong way....dunno why, it just did

guess if someone said "well most foreclosure coordinators dont know what they are doing" i would feel pissed because i am indeed a FC and certainly do know what i am doing

like i said i am cranky. and i think a nap is in order

******************************
molly
**proud member of the calendar- CBW FOR LIFE !!**
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971
www.oasisequestrian.com (http://www.oasisequestrian.com)

[jester1113]

horse_poor - we're all just jealous that you have Dutch. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Can I show under an alter?
ISO 5" 18mm hollow mouth full cheek snaffle!

[horse_poor]

as you very well should be-he is a farrier god!

now, if he can just sharpen up his gossip skills http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

******************************
molly
**proud member of the calendar- CBW FOR LIFE !!**
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971
www.oasisequestrian.com (http://www.oasisequestrian.com)

[inspired]

Well, I have a problem with farriers dissing farriers in general. The problem is, EVERY farrier I've every talked to says EVERYONE ELSE is doing it wrong. ...so when a farrier tells me that no one can do it right, I also assume they mean themselves!!! Especially since it seems to me that the better a farrier is, the less likely they are to dis others. ...which is probably why Dutch isn't saying much! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[horse_poor]

inspired you took the words outta my mouth

not only does he not gossip (which i am working on) i have never ever heard him diss anyone.

[royal aero]

Dear Friends,

Actually the master cobbler has told me ALL of the gossip and secrets of the horse world but being I come from the lineage I do, I am not about to share that with any of you.

[Txfarrier11]

Thats why I share with you, buddy.

[jrz]

Trim is the best way to fix underrun heels but I think that Cornucresine on the back half of the coronary band helps too.