BOSS diet - WARNING!

[Ames]

Just a warning to all you who feed the BOSS diet - I tried it with my horse two months ago, and after two days of not eating the seeds, we switched him back to pellets. I had him scoped today for ulcers and his stomach was COATED with seeds that had been there for two months. Somehow the seeds were not digested for whatever reason and were embedding in his stomach lining. While we can't be positive that is the cause for his unease, I'm sure it has something to do with it since he "colicked" right when we started feeding him the seeds.

Just a heads up.

[Ames]

Just a warning to all you who feed the BOSS diet - I tried it with my horse two months ago, and after two days of not eating the seeds, we switched him back to pellets. I had him scoped today for ulcers and his stomach was COATED with seeds that had been there for two months. Somehow the seeds were not digested for whatever reason and were embedding in his stomach lining. While we can't be positive that is the cause for his unease, I'm sure it has something to do with it since he "colicked" right when we started feeding him the seeds.

Just a heads up.

[luvmytrakehnerwb]

hmmm...interesting. Has anyone else heard of something like this? I feed my mare BOSS...I hope theres nothing like that happening!

[Weebonilass]

My guy has been on BOSS for almost a year now and the only time he coliced was when he got out one night and ate a minimum of 8 full flakes of alfalfa. Didn't require a vet, but he definitely had a tummy that was grumbling.

[Ames]

I hadn't ever heard of anything like this happening, and the vet doing the scoping didn't even know what they were, but they were seeds, very ID'able, and they were whole. It might only be a problem for horses who don't chew, but I would think if he wasn't chewing I would see oats in his tummy as well! I was just mortified and so wanted to pass our experience along....

[jester1113]

Poor pony! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Hopefully you've finally found the cause of his pain, after two months of testing!

[J Swan]

Can you do anything about the seeds that are not leaving his stomach?

Does your vet have any theories, or does he/she plan to discuss it with colleagues or the local teaching hospital?

[Ames]

tell me about it jester!

We flushed his stomach to get all the seeds out, but the concern is that if the seeds were getting stuck in his stomach, would they also be getting stuck in his intestines? The scope wasn't long enough to go down his intestines to check so they just flushed a bit more to put some power behind it. Both vets were amazed, and neither had seen anything like it before. Neither advocates the BOSS diet, but doesn't disagree with it, they just aren't likely to prescribe it so theyw ere surprised when they saw this!

[Bea]

This is ringing a bell in my head. Hasn't this possibility regarding Boss been discussed before here on the forum? Difficulty of digesting whole seeds.

[jester1113]

I thought the horse journal had a article on it a few months ago. My subscription has lapsed tho...

I'm sure this has been discussed before but I don't remember anyone ever saying "yes, it's happened to me." POOR PONY! I'm still shaking my head.

[Ames]

if it has, it might have been before my time here (just recently joined). I know SEVERAL people who feed their horses nothing but BOSS and I can only imagine what their tummies look like! I'm not saying all horses are like this, but I think it's definitely something to be cautious about. As I said, circumstantial evidence is just way too convenient for me to NOT think those blasted seeds have been part of, if not entirely, the problem with my horse for the past two months.

[OneonOne]

I thought that in some parts of the world, it was "standard" to feed sunnies, sort of how it's standard to feed oats here.

[talloaks]

Was it the black oil sunflower seeds you were feeding or the striped sunflower seeds??? We all have been warned about the striped sunflower seeds being tougher or having a harder and more pointed shell!!! Just a thought!

[LMH]

Good question talloaks...I also too thought BOSS was a primary foodstuff for horses-is it in Australia?

[Ames]

nope, they were black oil only.

[Kiwayu]

Well I noticed that when I fed my horse BOSS whole they were coming out the other end whole as well. I've actually been grinding my seeds daily now for about a year and haven't had a problem. Maybe this is what you have to do...grind them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Ames]

I'd rather he just eat his strategy with corn oil then go through all this again - it has been 2 months of pure torture - as jester alluded to, and I can't imagine putting him through all this again just for some seeds....

[BumbleBee]

Kiwayu- I was wondering how grinding the boss would work. Do you still use a coffee grinder for that?

[MistyBlue]

Do horses get diverticulitis? (small pits in the stomach wall lining) If so, maybe he has a mild to moderate case of that (painful acid-y stomach aches) and the BOSS got stuck in the pits?

[Ames]

good thought MistyBlue - wouldn't those "pits" show up in his stomach scope though? It was quite neat to see his pink tummy, and we did see the one ulcer, but as I said, very very small. Since he's such a voracious drinker I was really surprised to see them all in there - makes me wonder if he has any stomach acid http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[FortheFunofitFarm]

GEEZ LOUISE!!!! So sorry your poor fella had that happen! What type of symptoms have you been dealing with these past few months? I've feed BOSS to mine for a year now, but your experience has me wondering if I too should grind like Kiwayu, that sounds like a good idea!

[Bea]

Ames, did you remember how much BOSS you were feeding? And the exact amounts of what else you were feeding at the time? I'm working on a theory about what happened but I need some more info to present it for consideration. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Ames]

Forthefunofitfarm - I'm in G'town - what farm are you at? Symptoms:

Since July 4, 2004, we've treated him for the following:

1. suspected kidney/bladder infection (peed 3 times, full loads all 3, twice while under saddle, and all three within 20 minutes without additional water given) Bactrim for 5 days (30 pills/day).
2. Thelan - 3 sets of injections for loose stifles.
3. Blood work done - negative for: cushings, epsm. Showed up anemic and his cpk levels were slightly high, but on the normal side.
4. Dental work is up to date.
5. Acupuncture and chiropractic done regularly.
6. Feet are excellent and done every 5 weeks.
7. Feed: was on oats only, switched to oats with corn oil for energy. stopped eating, switched to strategy with corn oil. after acupuncture (told he was probably ulcerative) switched back to oats per DVM's suggestion - stopped eating for 3 days -now back on strategy and corn oil with a pro-bi additive.
8. Being scoped for ulcers 9/2/04
9. Bone scan on 8/6/04 - injected both SI joints with cortisone/HA injection. walk/trot fantastic according to trainer following wed - downhill again ever since.

10 yo Oldenburg cross gelding, buckskin color, schooling third level (although his changes are confirmed). Wormed regularly. Owner going through the ringer - is it a coincidence his show name is Chapter Eleven???

Forgot to mention that he started out being resistant to trot under saddle, would bend around right leg, snap at foot and kick out with right leg. Progressed to doing same behavior at the walk until he wouldn't walk under saddle. Lunge him naked or under tack - no issues. Saddle fits him fine. Ridden bareback BEFORE the injections - he was great. Rode him bareback last night - tail swishy, ears pinned, finally trots but is not happy. Looks stiff and uneven behind. Does not lunge out of his stiffness to the left at this point, but has a great forward trot to the right - w/o a rider. Very happy on the lunge, just not with weight.

Phew!

Bea - he was getting 1 cup (maybe 1 1/2) at am/pm feedings along with 1 1/2 scoops of reitsport supplement. that's it. what's your theory?????

[Ames]

forgot to add that on 7/4/04 he "coliced" while I was on vacation and after 15 cc's banamine and some walking was fine. Ever since then the above symptoms showed up. He was on the Boss right before that and we had switched off about a week before....

[Ames]

whoops - forgot to add again - he was on the Boss between the oats with corn oil and the strategy with corn oil. You lose brain cells when you're pregnant!

[Bea]

Okay, it's a very tentative one, because I know very little about diet. Firstly, there does seem to be some information about some amount of whole seeds causing impaction -- what that amount is, I can't find numbers for. See below:

"Plants Affecting the Digestive System (Part II) (Last Updated: 19-Feb-2003 )
A. P. Knight and R. G. Walter
1Department of Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, Veterinary Teaching Hospital, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO, USA.
2Department of Biology, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Gastrointestinal Impaction and Obstruction Caused by Plants
Adult horses and cattle may swallow poorly chewed or entire fruits and seeds of some plants that can become lodged in the pharynx or esophagus. The resulting esophageal obstruction is referred to as "choke". Fruits that may cause esophageal obstruction include apples, sugar beets, turnips, onions, and persimmons. Animals that are choked generally make frequent attempts at swallowing and drool saliva profusely because they are unable to swallow it. In cattle that are choked, severe bloat usually develops because they cannot belch to allow rumen gases to escape.

If large fruits or masses of seeds are swallowed successfully, they may cause an impaction of the stomach or obstruct some portion of the intestinal tract."

But to be honest, that's not what I wonder about your horse. I wonder more if with your horse it goes back to the old theory of 'hot' foods versus 'cold' foods. Your trainer and vet believe in feeding oats and whole foods -- which are considered 'hot' foods. Here's one article that sets forth this theory, some people subscribe to it and some don't. Some believe it's only a conspiracy by the feed companies to get us all to buy pelleted feed. I'm wondering if the oats only diet and than the BOSS with supplement diet would fall, for some people, under the considered tough to digest diet. Under that theory it would seem to me that your horse would have passed the BOSS whole and you'd have a field of sunflowers, so I'm also wondering why his digestive system wasn't moving them through.

"What is 'Heat'?
Dr Jennifer H Stewart BVSc BSc PhD MRCVS Dip BEP AAIM

There are two types of OVERHEATING and both are caused by fermenting hard feed.
1. Body Heat: when feed ferments in the large intestine it produces heat. This heat helps maintain body temperature. When the environmental temperture is between about 16 °C and 36 °C horses are able to maintain a steady body temperature, without needing to shiver to keep warm or sweat to cool. If they are fed 3-4kg of grain, the heat generated during digestion allows them to tolerate temperatures as low as 12 °C without shivering, but at around 32 °C they will begin sweating due to the extra body heat generated during digestion.

When fed 3-4kg of hay, the heat produced during fermentation of the fibre allows them to maintain body temperature without needing to shiver, down to temperatures as low as minus 12 °C. However, this extra body heat means they will begin to sweat at around 26 °C.

In hot climates, the amount of heat produced during digestion can affect performance. To cool itself by sweating, the horse must divert a large volume of blood to the skin. As body temperature rises, the horse diverts more and more blood to the skin - taking it away from the muscles. This reduces muscle blood flow and contributes to muscular problems during exercise, and increasing fluid and electrolyte losses.

Certain dietary manipulations can keep the heat of digestion to a minimum. When hard feed is fermented in the caecum, it produces ammonia, acid, heat and gas - increasing sweating, nervousness and predisposing to tying up, colic, diarrhoea and laminitis. Digestion in the small intestine produces much less heat than fermentation in the caecum and large intestine. By using feeds that are well digested in the small intestine, heat stress can be minimised. Micronization, steam extrusion and feeds containing 10-12% oil have been shown to increase digestion of raw grains in the small intestine from 20-30% to over 90%.
2. Heat and behaviour: fermentation of hard feed in the large intestine yields acid and ammonia. Both of these chemicals irritate the nervous system, causing behavioural problems such as fizzy, restless, unpredictable or 'hot' behaviour. Acid and ammonia also predispose to overgrowth of bacteria in the gut, which can lead to gastrointestinal diseases, laminitis, tying up and other veterinary emergencies. Many of these conditions may be subclinical, that is - vague syndromes of shifting, intermittent lameness, sour-smelling manure, poor performance or being 'just not quite right'.
WHAT CAUSES OVERHEATING?
· a horse is fed more energy than required.
· a horse is fed too much protein which ferments to ammonia and energy, irritating the gut and nervous system and adding to the energy already in the diet. If a lot of lucerne is fed, protein levels can become too high.

· feed is not fully digested oats and sunflower seeds growing in manure show that horses are not able to fully digest raw feed

· fizzzy behaviour can also be caused by vitamin B and mineral deficiencies."

[Ames]

hmm, interesting stuff Bea. Here's my question though - I just bought this horse in January. He was broken by his previous owners at the age of 5. According to them he has never coliced, been lame etc. They fed him 1/2 scoop whole oats am/pm only. That's it. Nothing more. He didn't even know it was okay to eat a treat. How would that play in?

[Silly Mommy]

I've been feeding everything in the barn (on average 25 horses with the members changing on a daily basis) 1 cup of BOSS am and pm for almost two years now. The seeds along with whole flax are added to the base of pelleted feed I use. Yes, I have the occaisional sunflower growing in my paddocks, but I haven't had any colic related episodes to date, just compliments on my shiny horses and their soft coats. I'm sorry your horse had to go through this, but it sounds like either there was some predisposition to this happening, or something else at play. Thanks for the input though, I'll file this away in my memory banks in case I have one acting as yours did.

[Ames]

I'm so glad to hear success stories Silly Mommy and didn't intend my post to be one that warned everyone off it, just to inform everyone that it is possible and I saw it with my own eyes today. I can't wait to ride on Sunday now and see if it changed anything!!!

[J Swan]

Wow - ok - head is spinning.....

First, I'm really sorry your horse seems to be falling apart at the seams. I'm hoping he's a lot better soon.

Second, I"m interested in the seed thing because I've often feed the seeds - more often as a treat or something, through the years. So did other folks when I boarded. I do remember seeing one or two sunflowers growing in the manure pile. But that's it. So they were either digested fully or partially, rendered inert by digestion, or just were killed off by the heat in the manure pile. Dunno.

Certainly leads one to think - and the articles are really interesting - I'm not quite clear on the "hot" thing from oats and such because pelleted feed generally contains corn which is also a culprit.................so I'm banging my head against the wall...........

[Bea]

Afraid I have no answers, Ames, only vague amateur theories to toss out. One of the HC people could evaluate his diet much better than me. The poor guy sounds like he's got stuff going on, diet might not be part of it/or a very small part -- must be really frustrating. I've got more questions, if you're willing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Do you know his previous owners well? Previous trainer? Are you feeling confident this really has come out of the blue.

You say he's a vociferous drinker, how much? I'm assuming that's why you had him tested for Cushings? Are his blood levels for anemia now normal? Any suggestions re the cpk levels? You might want to compare his levels with say Jester's horse, she just had his tested. You've started treatment for the small ulcer, I bet. You might find that helps a lot, some horses have really low tolerance for ulcer pain -- even a small one makes them grumpy.

Anyway, I think getting one of the diet experts here to look at his diet might be really useful whether or not that cures his other stuff.

[Bea]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J Swan:
So they were either digested fully or partially, rendered inert by digestion, or just were killed off by the heat in the manure pile. Dunno. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know, it's weird that in Ames' horse they only made it the first step, to the stomach.
[QUOTE}I'm not quite clear on the "hot" thing from oats and such because pelleted feed generally contains corn which is also a culprit.................so I'm banging my head against the wall...........[/QUOTE]
Oats from what I know is the only whole grain that people can't agree if it can be easily digested whole by the horse. And therefore might be 'hot'. People thought it was great, and then thought it was better crimped, and then some went off it, some never left it, some went back to it. Our barn went off it forever (leaving a very expensive crimper sitting in a storage barn.) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But I think newest research is showing it doesn't deserve being lumped in with other whole grains. And that it is digestible whole.

Corn, on the other hand, I'm confident has been proven not easily digested whole. But is digested in processed form, that's why it's in processed feed.

[Kiwayu]

I feed Kiwayu 2 cups BOSS and 1/2 cup flax seed daily. I grind both up in a coffee grinder separately and have never had a problem. I would know too, because I've had my horse scoped.

[Ames]

okay, we may have an update -it's a theory at least. I was talking again with the gastroenterologist tonight - to make sure she would test Jack for hypothyroidism - when we started talking again about the seeds. She doesn't think they are the cause of my issue. I had a bit of a lightbulb moment. When I fed the seeds to Jack he would root through them and spill them - some of them landing underneath his feed tub. All I can think is that he got so hungry last night being in without feed (necessary for the scope) that he might have unearthed some uneaten seeds. It doesn't account for the shear quantity, and teh fact that they flushed out of his tummy so easily, but that's the only thing we can think of. He was certainly not being fed additional seeds as the bag had cobwebs inside it it had been so long since it had been opened.

So, food for thought. Might not have been as bad as original thought, but then again, it might have - we have no idea how long any of them were in there, if for a long period of time at all, but I know for a fact that that amount was not under his tub, some, yes, but that many? I find that hard to believe.

[Bea]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ames:
that he might have unearthed some uneaten seeds. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Clever horsie! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
Still weird stuff going on with him though, huh?

[Vandy]

Wow, this is sure food for thought...I have an ancient pony mare (~30?) who has hardly any teeth left, has trouble chewing hay, and in addition to senior, I have been giving her 2 cups BOSS/day, which she loves. Now I think I will have to grind them, as I am certain she isn't doing too much chewing. She's been on the BOSS for months and no colics, but hearing this is just going to make me paranoid unless I grind them. Thanks for the heads up.

[blackstallion]

My guy will spend hours looking for dropped pieces of grain and sunflowers and I am afraid he eats quite a bit of sand while doing so. Do you treat your horse for sand? Also, drinking a lot could be a symptom of an overdose - of what?? A mineral imbalance? Have you checked your pasture's nutrient content or your hay? Is he offered a mineral block? Selenium deficiency? I would be looking closely at nutritional balance too. Just some more suggestions.

[Ames]

that's funny you mention selenium - the chiro today suggested putting him on it. He drank a lot when I got him, before his mineral block, and drinks a lot still - I think it's because he's a hairy beast and needs to keep himself cool. Don't treat for sand as we don't really have any, but that was the first thing the vets mentioned - that his "colic" could have been like a sand impaction, only a seed impaction!

[Starsnstripes]

OK guys, forgive my ignorance but the only way to learn is to ask!

It seems to me there are two huge issues that conjur up more diverse opinions than any other topic related to equines - what to feed them and how to shoe/trim them. A person could buy a one way ticket to the funny farm trying to decipher, assimilate and make educated decisions based on all the information available. One expert says this, one research paper says that... and we run in circles mumbling to ourselves "what to do? what to do?"

Now, for the ingnorant part...
Why do people feed sunflower seeds to horses anyway? Is it considered a natural foodstuff? Do horses eat them in the wild? What's so beneficial about them?

As kids didn't we all have an image of a wagon horse with a feedbag on its head and know that inside the grand old guy was getting his oats? And what about the childhood rhyme of "mares eat oats and does eat oats..."? Aren't oats one of the oldest tried and true horse feeds around?

I bought a young gelding from a huge farm in Ohio where they breed and raise American WB's. The owner, who usually has upwards of 200 horses on her farm at any one time, believes in feeding only rewashed crimped race horse oats. And that's just what I do now.

I used to feed a "complete" feed from our local mill. 10% protein as I don't have breeding stock or horses in heavy training. It seemed they got along fine until I had bouts of colic and laminitis. I decided to give up the fancier stuff and go with oats only. I do supplement with ShoGlo however. All my guys like oats (I only feed about 2/3 1 lb coffee can twice a day to my biggest guy who currently weighs in at 1330 lbs. and a little less than half a can twice a day to my mare who is around 1000 lbs.) They have fescue pasture but limited turnout due to founder and weight control issues and good quality timothy hay. Now, I couldn't begin to tell you whether or not I'm giving them all the micro and macro nutrients the nutritionists might recommend, I only know that they carry good weight, aren't fat, have plenty of energy without being "hot", their coats are shiny (when they haven't rolled in a mud puddle), their poop is formed without being too mushy or too dry, their eyes are bright, their hooves are in good shape without being too brittle or too soft and, in general, they bloom! So again, some ignorance on my part, if what I do seems to be working, why would I change?

I'm really looking to be educated here so feel free!

[J Swan]

Darley Drive

Sounds to me like you got a good thing going - don't mess with it.

The BOSS in high in fat - I gave them to my horse as a cheap but tasty fat supplement. That's all I really know about it.

I feed oats too (when my horse is in work).

[Starsnstripes]

Thanks, JSwan! I've had horses for over three decades and have been through more problems than lots have had in a lifetime. But there's still, and always will be, a learning curve when it comes to equines!

(BTW, I've been going to the thread "Need Advice" and am just as fed up as you are!)

[Bea]

Darley Drive, I'm with J Swan. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! If one of you were feeling energetic, you could try starting a thread on oats. I'd be curious to see what/if anything came up.

[dianad]

If you still want to try to "clean him out" at all, try some pysllium, we feed it out here alot for sand. It's supposed to become gelatinous and carry 'stuff' with it out the intestines... worth a thought.

[Ames]

that's what the vet suggested dianad - but his supplement has psyllium in it. We're going to wait and see what the rest of the bloodwork says before doing anything further.

If it is hepatits - is that different in horses than in humans? Contagious?

[nhwr]

Given the chemical nature of the environment of a horses stomach, I seriously doubt anything, even sunflower seeds, would remain intact there for any period of time. Gastic "juices" are very acidic. Sunflower seeds just wouldn't last there for any length of time.

Hepatitis is a distressed liver and has many different causes. You'd have to know why he has hepatitis to know if it is contageous or not.

[Alagirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Aren't oats one of the oldest tried and true horse feeds around?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oats and Barley.

The question always is wether or not to crimp...(and of course, they need suplements to correct the mineral imbalace, Ca and Ph...)crimped is supposed to be digested better (allready broken up a bit and softer to chew) vs whole...maybe it's just that whole kernes can sprout in the maure pile. BTW, it is recomended by some to add a handfull of whole kernels to the feed to have the little birdies scatter the road apples and keep flys from laying eggs in there...

[apimom]

OK, so sunflower seeds seem to be the rave to feed at the moment. The general consensus is for the oil content, as there is nothing else it could be good for. Vegetable oil is much cheaper, easily digestible, makes the coat shiny and adds calories if needed without the danger of founder.

Has anybody considered the abrasive nature of sunflower seed hulls to the horse's digestive system for what positive gain?

[chism]

Maybe it's cheaper where you are. I was going through three large containers of oil from the supermarket at $5 each a week. I can buy a 50 lb bag of sunflower seeds for the same amount and it lasts me almost a month. Plus it's not messy like oil is.

[Tannenwald Trakehner]

apimom, do you really think BOSS hulls are more abrasive than some hays that horses get? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

So why do people love BOSS?

BOSS contain somewhere between 20-50% oil, depending on the grade of the seed. A lot of the published analyses you see that are high are for a better class of seed than you get in your typical bag of bird food. Higher oil seeds go for producing oil; lower oil seeds go to feed birds.

Oil is a great calorie provider for horses who need a little weight.

The oil in the BOSS is pure, unrefined, and fresh sunflower oil. Because of it's "untouched" status, all of the vitamins and, most importantly for coat condition, essential fatty acids are in tact. The EFA's in BOSS are primarily omega 6 but include some omega 3. Most horse diets are probably lower in omega 3 than 6, but still supplementation with the blend that is in BOSS oil is beneficial as it yields such obvious improvements to the coat.

Locally a bag of sunflower seeds costs $9. Assuming even 20% fat content, a 50 lb bag gives 10 pounds of oil, a cost of $.90 per pound. If the seeds were 30% oil, a bag would have 15 pounds at a cost of $.60 per pound.

Soybean oil (the cheapest available out there in bulk), which is refined, doesn't have all of the EFA's etc, and is really good only for providing calories, is $18 at Gordon Food Service for a 35 lb container (5 gallon). So that oil costs $.51 a pound and is substandard to BOSS oil (only equivalent in the calorie providing aspect).

And beyond the oil content, BOSS gives horses something to chew on, provides fiber, and provides other nutrient in both the seed and the hull. So even if you could buy cold-pressed unrefined sunflower oil for less than $.90 a pound, you would still be giving up the chew time and other benefits of feeding BOSS.

[breezymeadow]

You know, in principle I agree with BOSS feeding, & when I started it with my guys, I was very careful.

Began with just 1/4 cup once a day for 2 weeks; then moved up to 1/2 cup once a day; then to a cup. A few days after upping to the cup, I had 3 horses colic. While my vet said she obviously couldn't confirm it was the BOSS, that was the only recent dietary change, & my horses did not have a "colic" history.

I stopped the BOSS, & haven't any problems since. Again - it might not have been the BOSS, but I just didn't want to take a chance just for some "supplement". Perhaps some horses digest them better than others.

[pegasus209]

wow--that's amazing! and scary http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
I've been feeding my boy a small amount (1/2 cup total daily)for about 8 months. I usually grind them and now will continue that for sure. I did try to take them out of his diet once, the problem- the onchorrera came back. On BOSS, he doesn't itch or lose his hair, 3 days without it and he is scratching again. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif
I think someone asked before about sunflower seed oil.. I know it's much more expensive, but does that have the same effect as feeding the seeds, without the additional 'roughage'?

[LMH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by breezymeadow:
You know, in principle I agree with BOSS feeding, & when I started it with my guys, I was very careful.

Began with just 1/4 cup once a day for 2 weeks; then moved up to 1/2 cup once a day; then to a cup. A few days after upping to the cup, I had 3 horses colic. While my vet said she obviously couldn't confirm it was the BOSS, that was the only recent dietary change, & my horses did not have a "colic" history.

I stopped the BOSS, & haven't any problems since. Again - it might not have been the BOSS, but I just didn't want to take a chance just for some "supplement". Perhaps some horses digest them better than others. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just curious-are your horses out alot? Or stalled alot? Just looking for any other info to see if there is a pattern with horses having trouble on BOSS.

[JB]

Actually BOSS see shells are pretty soft, softer than any kernel of corn that is fed whole or cracked in grain. I haven't looked in my horses' mouths http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but even the stripped shells, harder than the BOSS shells, get pretty squishy in my mouth after a few minutes.

[breezymeadow]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
[Just curious-are your horses out alot? Or stalled alot? Just looking for any other info to see if there is a pattern with horses having trouble on BOSS. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Horses go out in two shifts, weather permitting, so approximately 12 hours each.

One of the mares that coliced, when tubed, brought up a bunch of undigested sunflower seed. I'd just rather be safe than sorry. I'd rather have happier horses & lower vet bills than a rather subjective "shinier" coat.

[Red Hunter]

I discussed feeding the black oil sunflower seeds to my horse with my vet. The vet recommended against feeding BOSS because they could cause impaction colic. The vet said that I should just stick with feeding the ground flax seeds.

[nhwr]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> One of the mares that coliced, when tubed, brought up a bunch of undigested sunflower seed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you clarify this for me?

I have been fortunate in that I haven't had much personal experience with colic. I have had some experience but not a lot. Isn't tubing the process of pumping mineral oil and/or water into a horse's stomach? I have never seen anything "brought up" when a horse has been tubed. It might be possible to see a small amount of the contents of the stomach, but I really doubt anything could be retrieved from the small intestine.

[JB]

nhwr - when a horse is colicky, the vet will often see what comes out of the stomach as reflux (right word?) to see what if any gasses are trapped there. This could be where the seeds were brought up.

[OneonOne]

But colic isn't caused by what's in the stomach, right? Colic (impaction, anyway) is caused by what is in the intestine, correct? If the horse had eaten recently, isn't it likely that the "undigested seeds" simply hadn't had time to be digested? Now, if the undigested seeds were coming out of the intestine, then I could buy the argument. Just because the seeds were undigested in the stomach, doesn't mean that they won't be digested given more time.

Or perhaps my understanding of digestion is wacky.

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OneonOne:
Just because the seeds were undigested in the stomach, doesn't mean that they won't be digested given more time.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But, "colic" covers a wide variety of things in the digestive system, which includes the stomach http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[nhwr]

Ok but all this means is the horse ate sunflower seeds, which you'd probably already know if you were feeding them, right? That doesn't mean the seeds are the cause of the colic. That is like saying if you brought up carrot bits that carrots cause colic. It also seems unlikey that anything with such a high oil content would cause an impaction, especially if fed with flax seed.

[JB]

nhwr - correct again http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But, the OP already came back with a hypothesis on why the seeds were there, and that the vet indicated they were not the cause of the colic.

[breezymeadow]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> One of the mares that coliced, when tubed, brought up a bunch of undigested sunflower seed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you clarify this for me?

I have been fortunate in that I haven't had much personal experience with colic. I have had some experience but not a lot. Isn't tubing the process of pumping mineral oil and/or water into a horse's stomach? I have never seen anything "brought up" when a horse has been tubed. It might be possible to see a small amount of the contents of the stomach, but I really doubt anything could be retrieved from the small intestine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are different types of "tubing". This was not a tubing to administer fluids or oil into the system. This was a tubing to extract stomach contents (reflux).

And again - I'm not saying everyone should stop feeding BOSS. It's just that in my case I have decided the benefits aren't worth what I consider the possible risks - slight as they may be.

[gabz]

From OneonOne:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If the horse had eaten recently, isn't it likely that the "undigested seeds" simply hadn't had time to be digested? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That might be true; however, the OP, Ames, stated:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I tried it [feeding BOSS] with my horse two months ago, and after two days of not eating the seeds, we switched him back to pellets. I had him scoped today for ulcers and his stomach was COATED with seeds that had been there for two months. Somehow the seeds were not digested for whatever reason and were embedding in his stomach lining. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Regardless, I agree with others that there are probably a few horses that don't tolerate BOSS. There are horses that don't tolerate corn, or get hives from eating alfalfa, etc.

I am wondering, though, if whatever is/was making Ames' horse sick/NQR could have influenced the digestive juices (so to speak) of the horse's stomach enough to cause the seeds to not breakdown.
I am glad that she spent the $$ and time to have her horse scoped and is making progress towards resolving his trouble(s). Best wishes to her for continued success in that.

[nhwr]

It is impossible for something to remain in the stomach undigested for 2 months.

[Plumcreek]

Ames,
Just read this thread quickly. The way you describe your horse going under saddle and on lounge line, sounds a lot like my mare that had a bad case of "kissing spines". She would turn her head around to one side and hold it to relieve the pain. Just a long shot, but you might take a back X-ray. We spent two years chasing many possible causes for her discomfort because most of the pain seemed to come from her rear (including, Bea, a CT). Finally, Vet had bright idea to X-ray her back, and there it was, plain as day. (She had a very severe case of spinal impingement(sp?) that needed surgery to fix.)

I was leery of BOSS, so I feed only 1/4 cup whole flax seeds. I hope these are disolving! The coats are plenty shiny. One slight warning: The gelding I showed this Spring had a mirror coat but was too fat for QH http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif, so I stopped the flax seeds. He immediately grew 1/2 inch of hair, in MAY! and has kept it all summer. Luckily I have not been able to show, or I would have had to body clip.

[OneonOne]

gabz, I'm sorry I didn't catch that.

[Ames]

I had NO idea this thread would generate such interest/discussion! I've been reading the responses with interest, and now have enough info to post an update.

Blood work came back that his GGT liver count is very elevated - which points us to a bile duct problem - most likely a stone or impaction (partial) of his bile duct. Could he have foraged his seeds from the night before (ones that had escaped, under his feed tub from when I fed it previously) - yes. Do I know for sure? No. We are next looking at a liver ultrasound to see if it can point us in the right direction. We had blood work pulled 2 months ago when this whole thing started, and his white blood cell count was normal - it is now low. His red blood cell count was the same then as now - low and anemic. His GGT count was 20 last time (below 30 is normal) it is now 92. So yes, something has definitely occurred in the last two months. His thyroid came back negative, along with lymes, and a fecal.

Plumcreek - I don't believe it is kissing spines - Jack grows a hook on the right side of his mouth (back teeth) more rapidly than on the left, so I need to geth is teeth done every 4 months vs. 6 - which is okay by me.

NWHR - if a horse has issues with bile production, then food can go undigested and cause an impaction, from what I've read. It could be that Jack has a partial blockage, for whatever reason, and so the amount of bile needed to get into the stomach to digest has been compromised.


Thanks gabz for the kind words http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Interestingly enough, the saddle fitter came out and put the "rack" on his back to see his shape - his ENTIRE right side is at least 3cm's lower than the left except for two spots right UNDER the saddle. Yes, this is an entirely different issue from the original point of the thread, but at least it gives us more info.

Thank goodness this horse is insured - he's starting to live up to his show name - hold your breath folks, it's "Chapter Eleven"!

[Ames]

forgot to add a little coinkydink that happened - I HAD been feeding him corn oil with his feed - for coat etc. We ran out on Friday. His coat looks awesome NOW! Yes, his hair grows in like 5 different directions and he's a bit wooly for MD right now, but at least he's smooth and not as rough as he was. I'm wondering if he was having difficulty digesting the corn oil (a bit of a separate topic from the BOSS). He's on strategy and reitsport right now - that's it.

Also wanted to ask you guys about teeth and age. I was told he is 10. His background suggests that is correct. According to his teeth (and my vet's interpretation, along with two dentists), he could be aged anywhere from 8-13 - some tooth patterns that he shouldn't have for his "age" are there, and others that "should" be there aren't. Even if he "were" 13, these coat etc. issues shouldn't be present in a horse that tested negative for Cushing's and thyroid I would think. Just curious....

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Ames...

Firstly, any chance of seeing a pic of your boy because I am a sucker for Buckskins and he sounds awesome - a WB buckskin sounds devine!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Secondly, what the heck does coinkydink mean??!!

And finally...Im one of the **not so sures** who doesn't feed seeds unless they have been hulled. I feed soya oil, which down here is about $20 for 20 litres, and this lasts one horse about 3-4 months!

Sorry, I have nothing useful to add!

[Ames]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - I'll see if I can add it - I'll try to get a new one as he was 250 pounds overweight when I bought him and looked like a Belgian draft!

A coinkydink is a coincidence http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I just realized the whole connection with the coat and corn oil, but, interestingly enough, the AC I used (as she dons her flame suit) mentioned something to me about 2 1/2 months ago about corn oil and to watch it, he might be having problems digesting it (and I hadn't told her what I was feeding him).

If I can't get the pics to load, send me your email and I'll email you the pics@!

[nhwr]

Even in the absense of bile (which if I remember correctly is secreted after the stomach at the top of the small intestine), stomach acids would break down food contents in the stomach and whatever wasn't broke down would have been moved by peristalsis into the small intestines in pretty short order.

I feed BOSS and flax daily. Since I am usually too lazy to grind the flax, I let it soak with the BOSS in water while I ride (about 45 minutes). By the time I feed it, it is an soft oily goo. I am sure in a more acidic environment (like a stomach) it would break down quickly. To suggest that something would exist in the stomach for more than a day or two is not possible.

If your horse have problem secreting bile, Ames, it is likely that he would have problems digesting most fat.

[silver]

I have gallstone problems and I CANNOT eat any amount of fatty food. I get sick immediately after eating it with stomach and back pains for good measure.

I would imagine that if he has a gall bladder problem anyway the corn oil would have made it worse allright. Hopefull your guy will start feeling better soon.

[Ames]

okay silver - that makes sense! Not having had any issues myself, and knowing they don't have gall bladders, I was curious why it would have been an issue. What kind of back pain do you have if I can ask? Was/is it localized to one side? This is very interesting to me!

nwhr - I'm just going off what the vets said may have happened - not a vet myself so don't know!

[gabz]

Oh my ... when I had a gallbladder attack, I had NO idea what it was. I thought I had broken some ribs. The pain started in my right shoulder blade/rib area and spread up into my neck. It lasted more than 24 hours. When I FINALLY went to a doctor - about 2 days later - he immediately thought of gallstones but my xrays and later scan could not detect any. Dr decided I must have passed some gall stones!!
Yikes.. that was back in the day when work was more important than anything else. I only weighed about 105 pounds and gall bladder stuff happens to "Fair, Fat, and Forty" (I was 39 or so).

BUt.... it's an interesting thread - did you say his liver enzymes were elevated?? Onetempies on the dressage board had a similar problem with a mare of her's ... back in Feb/Mar timeframe... you might check back there to see.

[Bea]

Really glad to hear it sounds like you're starting to pin down the issues with your guy. I want to see photos too. And spill the beans. What else did the AC say?

It doesn't seem possible that something would sit in the stomach for two months without being moved further through the system. It does seem possible that some sunflower seeds aren't completely broken down and digested even when transversing the entire system. Given that people talk about their lovely sunflowers in their pastures and manure piles.

[silver]

I jsut can't eat fatty food, if I do I feel full after a few mouthfuls. If I keep eating (becasue it tastes nice) I frequently get a wicked stomach ache and random stabbing pains in my side adn feel very nauseous. Heavy vegetable oil or red meat are the worst foods. Olive oil etc. doesn't really bother me at all.

The two or three really bad episodes made my stomach and back ache-y for days afterwards.

[Tory Relic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ames:
I had NO idea this thread would generate such interest/discussion! I've been reading the responses with interest, and now have enough info to post an update.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am glad it did. I've been thinking about adding BOSS and flax in the winter for my mare specifically for weight and OMEGA 3 fatty acids. It's been an interesting discussion within which I've thought, okay, maybe no BOSS, to well, I think she'd be okay with BOSS, to okay, I'll do it but soak it in her beet pulp.

I realize that you weren't the one saying that this was the cause of your horse's problems, just speculating as any of us might, but it was a good question which each of us must answer to our own satisfaction. Some may go in Breezy's direction, others in nhwr's, others in between, but for me it's been very educational.

Add to that the fact that you've zeroed in on your horse's particular problems, and have decided upon a course of action, and it makes this one of the better discussions and outcomes on this forum.

So thanks and I'm glad everything will be fine with your boy. That's always the important thing, whatever approach individual people may wish to take.

[Ames]

hey gabdz - that's good news for me to hear (not that you had the attack!) - as he "favors" the right side out of the blue - will kick out that leg or snap at the riders right leg. Seems to come and go lately, but was progressively worse before. I'll have to check with onetempies - his liver GGT enzymes were 92 as of Sat - normal is 30 and below http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Bea - the AC has been right on so far. I've talked to two and can give you their names privately if you wish. Two different types of reads, but both informative. The one I've talked to twice before (and am talking to tomorrow), originally nailed his weak stifles and poll out of whack. Then this last time, said he was hurting on the right side - high up, higher than the stifle, like the hip. Lo and behold, his SI joint was inflamed (both) and they were subsequently injected (four weeks ago). She also asked if I had changed his diet as he liked the green mushy stuff (strategy with oil vs. oats), but she warned me that SHE thought I should be careful of corn oil. I never told her I was feeding it - he said he liked it, she said she was getting a gut feelign that he might not tolerate it well. Second AC told me that I was his 4th person (which is true), that he thinks he's gorgeous and flashy and has a nice hiney (also true), and that his previous owners shod him higher on teh outside of his right side (front AND back) for a while. She was specific that it was 7 shoeings ago (which would now be 9 shoeings ago), which would have been the second to last shoeing he had with his previous owners, who WERE farriers! Said he had been compensating for that for a while and was now finally starting to be balanced (his left hip was also dropped when I got him, hmmmm....). Anyhoo, also said I was on my second farrier (true) and that the first one, although good, put him in shoes too small, and the new one my horse loves and his feet feel great (his feet were soooo upright when I got him it wasn't even funny). If you want more details, I'll email privately - very long!

I wonder if the oil was the issue then silver - he got diarreha from it (normal in the beginning) that never really went away until we stopped using it.....

Thanks for the kind words Tory Relic! I HOPE we've zeroed in on it! I'll reserve final judgement until we're back in teh safe zone as far as blood tests go and he's back to 2nd level work vs. being a lead pony at the local carnival!

[gabz]

when a horse has enteroliths, are they lodged in the stomach or elsewhere in the intestines?

[Ames]

according to the "Horse Owners's Veterinary Handbook" page 191:

"Enteroliths are concretions that form in teh intestinal tract when mineralized salts are deposited around a central nidus, such as a pebble or other foreign object. A solitary enterolith is usually round. When two or more enteroliths exist together, the grinding effect produces multifaceted concretions.

Horses with enteroliths are primarily found in California and neighboring states where high concentrations of magnesium ammonium in soil and forage are intstrumental in their development. A familial predisposition has been recognized in ARabians."

Goes on to say they can grow large enough to obstruct the bowel. Usually occurs in young horses, in teh intestinal tract when they eat hay nets, rubber etc......

[Bumpkin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silly Mommy:
I've been feeding everything in the barn (on average 25 horses with the members changing on a daily basis) 1 cup of BOSS am and pm for almost two years now. The seeds along with whole flax are added to the base of pelleted feed I use. Yes, I have the occaisional sunflower growing in my paddocks, but I haven't had any colic related episodes to date, just compliments on my shiny horses and their soft coats. I'm sorry your horse had to go through this, but it sounds like either there was some predisposition to this happening, or something else at play. Thanks for the input though, I'll file this away in my memory banks in case I have one acting as yours did. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have had Elliot and my 2 Mini's on BOSS forever it seems....since the beginning of it here on COTH.
I have yet to see a sunflower plant in my yard, although there are some where Elliot took a holiday this past spring.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
None of them have ever had any colic episodes either.

[gabz]

posted by Bumpkin
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have yet to see a sunflower plant in my yard, although there are some where Elliot took a holiday this past spring.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hhhmmm.... interesting. so what was the difference between Elliot's normal environment and his "holiday" environment that would cause the seeds to pass through undigested and cause flowers to sprout? Or was the brand of BOSS different?

[Tannenwald Trakehner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gabz:
posted by Bumpkin
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have yet to see a sunflower plant in my yard, although there are some where Elliot took a holiday this past spring.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hhhmmm.... interesting. so what was the difference between Elliot's normal environment and his "holiday" environment that would cause the seeds to pass through undigested and cause flowers to sprout? Or was the brand of BOSS different? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have been feeding BOSS for about 3 years and do have some sunflower plants, but not a significant fraction relative to the amount of seeds that have passed through the herd's collective mouth. One thing I do notice is that one horse does not eat sunflower PLANTS, while the rest do. When she had a paddock to herself last year she was surrounded by flowers, yet none of the other paddocks had a plant to be seen. So maybe Elliot takes care of the plants before you notice them...

[atr]

I fenced off a wedge of my "sacrifice" lot this last spring (I got fed up with viewing dirt out of my kitchen window,) and reseeded it with grass. It also grew the most magnificent crop of poop-fertilized "volunteer" sunflowers over the summer, until our smallest horse worked out that he could limbo through the electric fence to get to hte new greenery... He had the top out of pretty much every sunflower--I'd watch him just eat the entire head in one mouthful.

Thy grow all over my property except where the horses can get to them first. They are obviously pretty tasty.

[Bumpkin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gabz:
posted by Bumpkin
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have yet to see a sunflower plant in my yard, although there are some where Elliot took a holiday this past spring.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hhhmmm.... interesting. so what was the difference between Elliot's normal environment and his "holiday" environment that would cause the seeds to pass through undigested and cause flowers to sprout? Or was the brand of BOSS different? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He was on holiday at his Mum's with a huge paddock, although kept clean not daily.
Where now he is in a stall and only outside in a paddock that is cleaned daily.
So I doubt I will ever see sunflower plants at his stable.
With the Mini's I can only think that they eat them as fast as they sprout.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Also Elliot has never been here at my house with the Mini's.
I have it fenced enough, that he could come home, but the Mini's are enough work for me.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Melelio]

My 4 have been on a cup of BOSS each for over a year, now. No ill effects, but lots of sunflower plants! LOL

Mostly in the manure pile. I had a wonderful crop of them growing, and I was deciding how I would harvest and dry them. 2 days later, the crop had been DECIMATED!!!! By BOSSnivorous wild QHs and Apps! LOL It was more of a tramplefest than anything it looked like. Maybe it was like the front of ToysRUs at 8:59am on the day a new hot toy comes out everyone wants...stampede the BOSS flowers!

I have the shiniest black horse you all will ever see in your life, and I attribute that to the BOSS, as he only gets about 20 pellet pieces on top of his BOSS (big fat, Air Fern App). My rescue gelding sure looks good, too.

Ya gotta love easy keepers; I got lucky with all 4 of them!

[Ames]

wish us luck - we have a liver ultrasound scheduled for today!!!

[Bea]

Best of luck, Ames. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Let us know what the ultrasounds shows.

[Ames]

thanks! The good news is that last night he was awesome! Not sure if it's been the time off, that he's no longer on corn oil, that the seeds are gone or what, but we rode out and even got some trot action going - not a lot, but enough so he knew it wouldn't hurt him. I was very proud of my super pony!!!

[FortheFunofitFarm]

Good luck today! keep us posted on how things go. I am in Mount Airy. We have our own little place. The name FortheFunofit is to help me remember that as stressful it all can be....the main idea is to have FUN at it. I've been feeding BOSS for almost a year now and no probs to really speak of. One of my TBs came down with some wierd symptoms a couple months ago. We were thinking it might be Erlichia or Lymes but both came back neg. After 10 days of Doxy he's been great since. I do have sunflower plants in my manure pile and in the pastures and I love them...so do the Orioles and Cardinals! I will say that I have been finding "other" things in my bags of BOSS though. One bag had a LOT of corn mixed in and one had a LOT of soybeans in it. Both were purchased at the local feed store. Finding I have to be very diligent on inspection of the BOSS to make sure they are "clean".

[equinelaundry]

Been doing BOSS, beet pulp, vitamins for a couple years. Works for my 3 big horses and 2 minis. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Question: Didn't someone say on an old BOSS thread (or this one...haven't read all pages!) that lots of sunnies growing in yard from poo meant that teeth needed checked??

[Ames]

OKay, did the ultrasound - showed nothing. Poor pony now has two shaved patches on either side of his barrel. HAS been feeling better though. Vet mentioned that she thought liver levels COULD become elevated when horses are kept off feed so we did another blood pull to check liver GGT, white and red blood cells.

Still working on those pics....

[Tory Relic]

I'm glad he's feeling better. All the best for the other diagnostics and his recovery.

[Ames]

now i"m wondering if this is all in his head and he doesn't respect me as a rider? Trotted beautifully on Thurs. A total sh*t yesterday, today took 45 minutes to get him to go forward - this included errant stopping and swishing, moving laterally when asked to go straight, just being a peckerhead. Got him to trot ONLY when trainer took a whip to his butt behind us (yes I used one on him but wasn't sure what he would do - I'm a big ninny now that I'm preggo). So he trots off and feels great. She thinks he looks stiff behind. Can only trot him on the buckle. Dentist coming out in mid-Oct wondering if I shouldn't put in an "emergency" call. Others can get him to go (trainer and little girl) and he might not look "right" from the ground but he won't go for me all the time - what gives?

Other thing I'm wondering - when I got him, his hind feet, although narrow and upright had a pretty deep foot bed. We've tried letting him grow out a bit to give him a better base of support. He threw a shoe in the field last night and when I looked at him today, he appeared almost flat footed - can that happen? How should I address that with my farrier? Should some horses be shod more upright????

[Pocket Pony]

Ames, I have no information to share with you, but I can totally understand how you are feeling.

Miles will move around nicely in the pasture, yet when I boot him up to go for a simple walk, he drags his heels and I can barely get him to move along. He's transitioning from shoes to barefoot and he's getting better. But his lack of willingness to move with me when I lead him has me confused. He moves around all the time when he's on his own, but with me it is another story! So frustrating!

[Ames]

YES pocket pony - that's it! In the field he moves beautifully! We are having his saddle adjusted, but the current one fits him fine. Maybe his teeth are bugging him? That's why the dentist is out. But right now I am sooo frustrated - I can't afford a pasture pet - no matter how cute - he has to work to earn his board http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Pocket Pony]

Wow, it sounds like you have been through a lot in the past couple of months. What are all the blood tests you ran? I don't understand the abbreviations, and am curious to learn.

Did you have another AC reading, and was that helpful?

What is your entire feed regimen? How many times a day does he get fed? How many lbs of different feeds? What supplements? Have you had your hay analyzed? What did he eat before (other than oats?)? Perhaps a dietary imbalance is causing problems for him...

[Ames]

ooooh, let's see. He had a regular CBC chem panel (white and red blood cells), we ran his liver, a liver bioassay, lyme's, thyroid, and a fecal. All negative except the original liver and the red/white blood cell.

I did have an AC reading and it was helpful, but not helpful at the same time if you know what I mean.

He gets fed 2x/day 1 scoop of strategy with 1 1/2 scoops of reitsport am and pm. Night turnout on a pretty good lot and hay in the am, afternoon and with dinner. hay must not be that great lately though as he's left some.

Can ingestion of lyme hurt them? I found some in his stall - big chunks - and am wondering if he "grazed" upon that?

[Pocket Pony]

I don't know anything about lime, sorry.

Maybe he's allergic to something?

How much work is he getting right now? If you've given him time off to check on these issues, you should take him off of the Strategy and just let him have hay. Do you board or do you keep him at home? Do you know what kind of hay he is getting and how much (in terms of lbs, not flakes)?

What do his feet look like - have you had the farrier check him out?

[J Swan]

Do you mean agricultural lime? Does your barn use it on the pee spots?

[Ames]

yes J Swan - on the pee spots. We're just now putting him back into work/work as before when I tried he got all cranky. - that's why I think this has now morphed into a mental issue - when he does go forward he feels fine - I think he's gotten used to the cushy lifestyle and has decided working isn't fun anymore! I'm going to hack him tonight and see if a change in scenery doesn't agree with him!

[Bea]

Ames, I see PocketPony has a shout-out to Katy Watts. She once posted that copper deficiency is the leading cause of anemia in horses. Has your horse been tested for that?

[Pocket Pony]

Hey Bea - Miles just had some blood work done last week and the vet said that he is just slightly anemic. I didn't' realize that copper deficiency was the leading cause....I just started him on a custom supplement that has copper, so we'll see how that affects him.

How is it possible to know why a horse is anemic? I just thought it was iron...

[breezymeadow]

You know what??

Those of you who want to feed sunflower seed to your horses - go right ahead.

Those of you you don't = DON'T feel like you're depriving your horse of anything.

Really - it's ridiculous.

[Equibrit]

Have you considered migrating worm larvae?

[Ames]

breezymeadow - thanks for sharing, we're past that point now, but we do appreciate your input.

Bea and pocket pony - didn't know copper could cause that! Wasn't tested for it that I know of. Vet said to keep him on as minimal a diet as possible for right now and when we retest the blood work make sure it's still going in the right direction.

Equibrit - wouldn't the worm larvae show up in a fecal? We did that last week and he was just wormed....

[Bea]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pocket Pony:
How is it possible to know why a horse is anemic? I just thought it was iron... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey, Pocket Pony. I had noticed Katy Watts mentioned copper on one of her posts. And saw your shout-out, and thought Ames might want to hang around and ask her about anemia. Is she a nutrition person?
edited to say: just read through Katy Watts' website. Very interesting. Hope she comes back.

[Ames]

do you have her addy? I know Dr. Harman said that an anemic horse is NOT the same as an anemic human - it has nothing or little to do with iron deficiency if I remember correctly...

[J Swan]

Ames - usually the ag limestone causes distress when the dust is inhaled; it can also burn the skin - but again usually it's farm workers who inhale or get it all over themselves that get injured. It injures the mucous membranes.

The crap farmers inhale all the time (ag lime, fertilizer and stuff) causes "farmers lung".

Katy's website is good - also why don't you look up anemeia in the Merckvetmanual.com and also look at ruralheritage.com

If I was a horse I wouldn't want to wear those nasty saddles and cart our fat butts around - I don't blame your horse if that's what it is - but it does sound like something funky was going on.

Also - encysted small strongyles don't show up on fecals, and tapeworms are notorious for getting missed on fecals. Just FYI...

[Ames]

so how do you test for encysteds?

I also think something WAS wrong with him - I was a bit tongue in cheek before, but I do find it ironic that my trainer can get him to do anything and to me he poo-poos, I just need to work through some stuff I guess. BUT I'm glad we took this route so I know in the future what he did/didn't have!

[Pocket Pony]

Maybe he knows you'll listen to him and the trainer will just make him perform, so he soldiers through her riding him but is still really having some kind of problems...this could be a good opportunity for you to really get to know your horse a lot better.

Again, if he's not working right now (or even working very much), I'd take him off the Strategy. I don't know what measuring device you are using, but one coffee can = 2.5 lbs of it and if he's getting that 2x per day, that's probably more than he needs right now (assuming his weight is fine).

And I'll ask again - what kind of hay is he eating and how often? If it is a vitamin or mineral deficiency, you'd do both of you a favor to have your hay analyzed so that you can figure out what he's missing and then supplement just for that vs. throwing a lot of random supplements at him witch may be throwing all the ratios off and which could still lead to some kind of deficiency... (how's that for a run-on sentence?! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)

[J Swan]

Someone else may correct me on this point - but I do not believe there is a "test" for encysted small strongyles. Diagnoses (or educated guess) is made based on symptoms.

Some folks use Quest to get rid of the encysted strongyles, and some do a Power Pac of Safeguard.

Colic can be caused by the strongyles emerging from the encysted stage - you can imagine what that does to the horses gut. Some colics that can't be traced to a specific cause are sometimes blamed on strongyles. I dunno for sure.

I'm not saying that's whats wrong with your horse at all - just posting the info for your edification.

[Ames]

thanks! He was Quest wormed in June and just wormed with ivermectin last week. I do think he's pushing some limits though, as I worked him tonight - very business like, no lovey dovey and he was amazing! Floated on air, sound as a dollar. He got the lovey dovey's afterwards b/c he earned them. I'm wondering if part of the last bit of him being NQR was just a lack of respect...

[Equibrit]

Just for your information Ames. Encysted strongyles are not effected by Quest or Ivermectin because they are not present in the digestive tract. They are encysted in the walls and will migrate into the tract through the walls. Colic symptoms will show when this migration is occuring (it usually happens in spring or fall) You can relieve the problem by giving double doses of Safeguard for 5 days.

[Ames]

okay - if that is what happened though they would still be present and in his digestive tract right now correct?

[Equibrit]

Yup - exactly when did you have the fecal done?

[Tannenwald Trakehner]

Quest does kill encysted small strongyles. That was the edge it always had over the ivermectins.

[Ames]

it was done over Labor Day Weekend....