Chicago area posters...... all about Joe Plemmons and Helen Brach murder now

[JulieMontgomery]

A friend (from Chi, but in Wellington) told me this evening that there has been a update in the Helen Brach case and the news is reporting it...

I accessed the Chicago Sun Times and cannot find it.

What gives?

[JulieMontgomery]

A friend (from Chi, but in Wellington) told me this evening that there has been a update in the Helen Brach case and the news is reporting it...

I accessed the Chicago Sun Times and cannot find it.

What gives?

[hiddenlake]

http://www.nbc5.com/news/4051778/detail.html

Should tell you the latest.

[findeight]

Doesn't say anything about the Jaynes.

For newbies, Sy Jayne was implicated in some skulduggery related to the broader issues of this case. NOT THE JAYNES YOU SEE IN THE RING TODAY. A great uncle or some such.

Don't infer any connection.

[hiddenlake]

Agreed, findeight. I only replied because the body of Julie's post mentioned Helen Brach and that's what I was replying to. There is no connection to the Jaynes in the ring today other than Silas and nobody should infer such. I sure didn't but I never thought about the title of the thread when I responded to the question itself.

[findeight]

Well good for you for saying that.

On the other hand ALL need to be aware of the Brach case and what was turned up under those rocks that lead to her death.

The scum of the horse industry, and they are still out there. Some trying to evade their suspensions and some trying to get back in the ring. Read a book called Hot Blood, can't remember the author. Also look for a Court TV or A&E (or their associated channels)documentary usually titled the Chicago Horse Mafia but sometimes called the Brach case or some such.

Search Hot Blood in the BB archives for details on something you should know but will wish you didn't.

Again, not involving the Jaynes currently competing.

But according to this article the butler did it? But did not act alone????

What many have thought all these years.

[JulieMontgomery]

Have read Hot Blood, seen Court TV or whatever....

Just asking if there is any update currently.

It's a legitimate question.

(BTW... everyone knows that you can pick your dogs, but not your relatives...)

[findeight]

That newspaper blurb seemed like speculation from a "source" but we'll see.

[amrose3]

Ken Englade is the author of the book "Hot Blood" about Helen Brach's disappearance and the horse insurance scam.

[sixpoundfarm]

There is new news, however the news channels are too busy reporting about the snow we are getting!

I think I saw mention of it on Illinoishorse.com bb's

[Giddy-up]

Here is what I have gotten (around the snow reports):

The house keeper is starting to squeal. He's naming names & acknowledging there was a scheme to get rid of her. He claims she was picked up at the Mayo (sp?) clinic in Minnesota & was going to catch a flight to FL. Now if she was flying out of Chicago or Minnesota I don't know, but she never made it. She was shot in the chest & then her body dumped in one of those big metal scalding hot vats of whatever that stuff is (think the end of Terminator) at a factory in Minnesota. I saw this morning Ross Hugi on Fox news stating "the murder is solved", but they didn't say who or any details. Last night (I didn't see, but was told) on channel 7 news they were saying Frank Jayne Jr (he's old Si's brother & uncle to Alex) was involved more than origanally thought. Richard Bailey is currently in jail serving time & I "think" was the original suspect (and maybe the only one blamed?) in her disappearance. It is now coming to light that many more people were involved.

[JulieMontgomery]

If for no other reason, Richard Bailey should be put in jail for life for wearing those tacky leisure suits that his newspaper photos and tv clips always show him in....... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[OneonOne]

Julie - http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

What a huge break for the case!

[Glimmerglass]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Giddy-up:
I saw this morning Ross Hugi on Fox news stating "the murder is solved", but they didn't say who or any details. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is classic Fox WFLD reporting http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Per the today's Chicago Sun-Times "prosecutors do not yet have enough evidence to file charges".

I think this is just a red herring to try and get Richard Bailey out of jail. Create reasonable doubt for his retrial. Yawn, it's like something out of a Law & Order episode we've all seen too many times.

Ironically had it been the houseman and he was caught at the time, then perhaps the Feds never would've uncovered the Chicago Horse Mafia ...

Today's article: Link Chicago Sun-Times (http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-brach06.html)

New details about disappearance of Brach heiress
January 6, 2005

BY FRANK MAIN
Crime Reporter

An informant recently provided investigators with new details about the 1977 disappearance of candy heiress Helen Vorhees Brach, but prosecutors do not yet have enough evidence to file charges, sources said Wednesday.

No one ever was charged with murder in connection to Brach, but con man Richard J. Bailey was sentenced to 30 years in prison in 1995 after a federal judge decided he conspired to kill her.

"Another person has now provided information about the murder," a law enforcement source said Wednesday. "It still must be corroborated."

On Tuesday, attorney Kathleen Zellner filed a notice with the U.S. District Court in Chicago that she is representing Bailey.

Zellner also represented four men exonerated in the 1986 killing of medical student Lori Roscetti after DNA evidence linked two other men to the crime. Zellner could not be reached for comment Wednesday.

Bailey -- who pleaded guilty to racketeering, conspiracy, mail and wire fraud and money-laundering charges -- admitted fleecing elderly widows and divorcees. But he denied ripping off Brach or having anything to do with her disappearance.

Federal prosecutors convinced U.S. District Judge Milton I. Shadur that Brach was killed because Bailey feared she was about to turn him in to authorities for a horse-killing scam to collect insurance.

Did she know too much?

Cathy Jayne Olsen testified under a grant of immunity that she overheard Bailey and her father, horseman Frank Jayne Jr., say the 65-year-old Brach "knew too much." A now-retired north suburban police officer and Brach's houseman, Jack Matlick, were at one of those meetings, Olsen said.

Matlick cashed thousands of dollars in Brach's checks after she disappeared, prosecutors said. He was never charged. Investigators have interviewed Matlick, but he did not give any statements implicating himself in a killing, sources said.

Ernie Rizzo, a private investigator who worked for Brach's estate, said he always thought Matlick was involved in her disappearance.

"The investigation has been going on for almost 30 years and remains unsolved," said Tom Ahern, a spokesman for the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. "Our agents will continue to follow every lead."

[Giddy-up]

Ok, I needed to just clarify: Frank Jayne Jr is a 1/2 brother to Alex--not an uncle like I had stated originally. That would also make him a nephew of old Si.

Yes, the house keeper "overheard" things he is now suddenly deciding to share with the police. I don't believe he himself killed her--he just claims to have overheard the plot & who was involved. I think as some people are in jail or pass away, people may feel safer & start talking. Who knows...some day this case may actually be solved.

And yes, Richard Bailey's outfits SHOULD have him arrested! Can we say swarmy? Ewwww.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[Party Rose]

Interesting. I'd love for this case to be solved and finally closure for those involved.

[Glimmerglass]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Giddy-up:
And yes, Richard Bailey's outfits SHOULD have him arrested! Can we say swarmy? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amazingly even with those suits he managed to get remarried before his conviction to a plastic surgeon in the Gold Coast.

For those who think Matlick is a fresh angle, try this NBC Dateline on-line transcript (aired 2/21/96) (http://www.angelfire.com/sc/Centner/CandyLady.html) whereby they tried to speak with Matlick.

[GoldCoastRider]

I remember growing up hearing about this case as I am sure many others here did as well. It has remained one of the society mysteries to date. Helen Brach, found herself a lonely woman with unlimited financial resources and a big heart for helping animals...unfortunately the worst kind of animals took advantage of her eagerness to find companionship. I always thought the "housekeeper" had something to do with it. Who knows why witnesses or criminals come forward years later. Besides the horrific act of murder, the barbaric practices of the hunter/jumper world that later investigations revealed is stomach turning.

People have to earn respect and admiration, simply being a great or being in society because of money or popularity does not cut it, in my book. Deeds and actions prove a person's real talent and worth to the horse community. A little off from the original discussion, but definitely relevant given the "hidden" truth behind so many people and a world so many coveted. The rolling estates and society page smiles were so on the outside, but on the inside a more clear picture of a rotting composite pile was the reality.

[Beezer]

Interesting. After coming so close, so many times to saying they had a suspect, I can but hope that, this time, they really, really do. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Giddy-up]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Party Rose:
Interesting. I'd love for this case to be solved and finally closure for those involved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, Helen's brother passed away 2 years ago without ever knowing the truth. He acknowledged she was dead, but he had wanted to know in his lifetime who the killer was. She never had any children.

I haven't seen anything on the news since Thurs morning, but hopefully there will be updates as more information is found.

[Glimmerglass]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Giddy-up:
I haven't seen anything on the news since Thurs morning ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LaPorte Co. (IN) Herald-Argus 1/7/05: "The latest reports on candy heiress Brach ring familiar to editor of Lake" (http://www.heraldargus.com/content/story.php?storyid=5580)

Throwing Brach’s body into a steel furnace in northwest Indiana is one theory that Colander admits not having heard before, and she’s heard a lot of them.

“(Brach’s body) put in a meat grinder and fed to her dogs or buried under a Chicago building,” she recalls hearing.

For trivia, Mrs. Brach's two dogs were named Sugar and Candy.

[Other]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:


“(Brach’s body) put in a meat grinder and fed to her dogs or buried under a Chicago building,” she recalls hearing._

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok... And topping today's list of Goriest Mental Images I Didn't Need to Have in My Head, we have old lady in meat grinder being served to her dogs http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Glimmerglass]

Other, that is one of the oldest and most consistent stories (dogs) that I've ever heard since I moved to Chicago in the late 1990's. In fact most people here in the Chicago-land area have circulated that "story".

[JulieMontgomery]

My husband has an ex living in Chicago who still gets alimony. (after 34 years)

Uh, where is that steel mill exactly......? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[findeight]

And ladies, the word for Bailey is GIGOLO.

Nothing esle explains the smarmy attention to a much older lady with money and the circumstances that led to her death.

I do think the best, simplified version was that Law and Order with Mr Wickets as the Equine murder victim.
And the late Jerry Orbach as the detective that pushed it as an unrepentant bettor.

RIP Jerry Orbach.

[Giddy-up]

Here is what I have seen since on the case.

Last Thursday (or was it Friday?) in the Daily Herald was an article where Bailey is pointing fingers at Frank Jayne Jr as the guy who did it. They claim there is "evidence" to prove it, but so far it has not beeen said what it is. Supposedly Frank & his attorney don't even know what the evidence is & were awaiting a phone call.

Then Mon night on Channel 5 news was them saying back in 1988 & again in 1991 a psychic on the east coast had a vision (???) or whatever & gave details about Helen's death. These new come to light details support the details of what the psychic had seen/written down (being shot, going to the factory, etc...). Back at the time states attorney Jack Malley wouldn't allow them to further look into what the psychic was saying. And that's all they had to say.

As for the dog story--I believe either that's what happened to her OR shortly after her disappearance I was told Morton Grove got a brand new fireplace poured in their clubroom area & she was placed in there. There are a lot of versions.

[Lionheart]

Growing up in the 80's as a horse crazy kid in the lake/cook counties of Illinois, this was all happening around me. If I were to take a highlighter and highlight all the names and places i'm familiar with in the Hotblood book, it would be scary.

It is a very strange mystery. My husband recorded the little news blurb the other morning, and they really didnt say much at all.

I can say that Frank Jayne was in jail last I heard a few months ago and not in good health. I have not met him personally.

I did ride with one of his sons, he was always nice to me. My boss at the H/J barn I teach for got her first riding job from Bailey. I also know someone who's mom dated Bailey and was swindled by him, but luckily is alive and well unlike Helen Brach.

Who knows if it will ever be solved.

[findeight]

That probably explains why Court TV trotted out the Brach case on Suday night to run yet again.

Wondered why they pulled it up again but if it's on the news again in Chicago, that would explain it.

[Giddy-up]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lionheart:
Growing up in the 80's as a horse crazy kid in the lake/cook counties of Illinois, this was all happening around me. If I were to take a highlighter and highlight all the names and places i'm familiar with in the Hotblood book, it would be scary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

And yes, Frank is in jail. He was found guilty of burning down one of his barns. Or was it a house? It was for insurance purposes.

[Dusty]

Ahh Lionheart...I hear ya about knowing all those people and places - I lived in the Wilmette/Winettka area during that time. Hubby had a friend who's parents were caretakers of the Brach estate. I can vividly remember spending many times there, and can vouch for how cool the ice cream parlor in the house really is! Creepy now that I think back on it all, but at the time we didn't know half of what we know now!

[Lionheart]

It makes you wonder you would witnessed or heard without knowing it was going to be pertinent decades later. Just amazing... People could have been saying things right around my little ears and i would have been non the wiser.

[1-800-Dial-A-Distance]

it is astounding the prices we pay for our relatives....

1-800

[ccoronios]

Wow! Very interesting. The informant was at a show in FL this week, eh? hmmm....

[Party Rose]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
Thanks for posting the link janetfornow. Interesting!

[Snowbird]

I can so sympathize with a lady who loves critters and tried to blow the whistle. What a pity that such slime takes advantage of older women because they're lonesome.

If you know an old lady who is lonesome by all means give her a hug. Getting on in years is not an easy time. What a shame that evil people take advantage of that to make a few crooked bucks and then kill her.

[JulieMontgomery]

Gee, what fun. Even more lowlifes hanging around the shows.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

[Snowbird]

Yes! and won't potential sponsors be pleased with the company at the classy hore shows. Anyone know if it was Wellington or Ocala? I'll bet on Wellington they're a lot richer.

[Policy of Truth]

Ok...so after reading the article janetfornow posted, I am so confused as to why this guy who has confessed is being referred to as possibly lying....I have racked my brain...why would someone confess to a murder if they didn't actually do it? What motive could he POSSIBLY have?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Giddy-up]

pacificsolo--this comment in the article "According to sources, the informant told agents he had "ghosts chasing him" soon after his 2002 court testimony helped convict horseman Kenneth Hansen in the 1955 murders of three young boys on Chicago's Northwest Side." makes me think perhaps it's easier for this prson to accept the blame of a murder he perhaps didn't committ & the court system then face the consequences from other people if he didn't accept the blame. Some people can be very persuasive I am sure in "helping" people make up their minds.

[wtywmn4]

They interviewed the police man who now lives in Mexico?? Thats quite interesting.. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif The whole thing has been a source of, well entertainment and theories. More bad press for the horse show scene.

[Policy of Truth]

"pacificsolo--this comment in the article "According to sources, the informant told agents he had "ghosts chasing him" soon after his 2002 court testimony helped convict horseman Kenneth Hansen in the 1955 murders of three young boys on Chicago's Northwest Side." makes me think perhaps it's easier for this prson to accept the blame of a murder he perhaps didn't committ & the court system then face the consequences from other people if he didn't accept the blame. Some people can be very persuasive I am sure in "helping" people make up their minds."

Hmmmm...so you are proposing that the "ghosts" from the 2000 incident are so bad that he'd admit to a murder he did not commit? It almost reminds me of Poe's intriguing story "The Tell Tale Heart". Could these "ghosts" be so bad as to drive him to the point of a false confession?

[1-800-Dial-A-Distance]

Probably figures he stands a better chance in a state that has put 12 people to death since 1976 than outside where he may simply disappear...Not sure all the factors but I'm certain that many people have been driven to false confessions based on circumstances such as these...

1-800

[myleetlepony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Could these "ghosts" be so bad as to drive him to the point of a false confession?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You betcha! Sad, isn't it?

[Policy of Truth]

Sad? more like out of a nightmare! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[dab]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by janetfornow:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The man, who is not believed to have signed a written confession and who remains free, was at a horse show Friday in Florida, where he would not immediately discuss the matter with the Tribune. The Tribune is not naming the man because he has not been charged <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any guesses? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>From reading this article (http://www.truthinjustice.org/kennethhansen.htm), I suspect he is one of the 4 witnesses mentioned --

[showgirl]

This was Chicago-Tribune front page Sunday:

I shot Brach, horseman says
But facts backing claim hard to find

By David Heinzmann and Jeff Coen
Tribune staff reporters
Published January 23, 2005
A horseman long associated with Helen Vorhees Brach has told investigators he fatally shot the candy heiress, whose 1977 disappearance remains one of Chicago's most-enduring mysteries, according to sources familiar with the case.
The sources said the man, who has been an informant on other cases, first told his story in an emotional phone call to an investigator. He repeated the claim multiple times in recent months in the presence of agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and Cook County prosecutors.
The Cook County state's attorney's office has been cautious about the man's claim, which they have not been able to corroborate.
The man, who is not believed to have signed a written confession and who remains free, was at a horse show Friday in Florida, where he would not immediately discuss the matter with the Tribune. The Tribune is not naming the man because he has not been charged.
Brach's disappearance has received renewed attention as accounts of an informant's claims have surfaced in news reports. Those accounts did not include the fact that the informant implicated himself in his statement.
The man is among a circle of area horsemen whom authorities have been looking at for years believing the Glenview woman was silenced after learning she had been cheated in a horse deal.
Developments in the case have prompted federal authorities to turn over information to lawyers for Richard Bailey, a con man sentenced to 30 years in prison for allegedly soliciting Brach's killing. The man had testified under oath in Bailey's case, when he told a different version of Brach's disappearance. Bailey's lawyer wants Bailey's sentence reduced because of the informant's new claims.
Some investigators believe that the informant's story matches up with many long-held suspicions about Brach's fate and is the most detailed glimpse yet of what could have happened to her. It is also believed to be the first time anyone has tried to take blame for killing her.
The informant also allegedly told authorities that there was no body to find. Brach's body was incinerated at an Indiana steel mill days after her disappearance almost 27 years ago, the informant allegedly said.
According to sources, the informant told agents he had "ghosts chasing him" soon after his 2002 court testimony helped convict horseman Kenneth Hansen in the 1955 murders of three young boys on Chicago's Northwest Side.
The informant told agents Brach's death was orchestrated because Brach was about to bring authorities down on a ring of crooked horsemen.
Brach was taken from her home and then beaten by a former suburban police officer who was involved in the ring, the informant allegedly said.
The informant and three other men were present when Brach was then killed at Hansen's stable in the southwest suburbs, the informant allegedly said. The informant said Brach had been beaten so badly he was not even certain she was alive until she moaned just before he pulled the trigger, the sources said.
The group's mob connections enabled them to have Brach's body disposed of at the steel mill, the informant allegedly said. It's been almost 30 years since the alleged trip to the steel mill, and the facility has since changed hands.
While some law-enforcement sources believe several people still could be held responsible for Brach's death based on the informant's account, Cook County prosecutors say it's a case without much corroborating evidence, built on a man of questionable character essentially accusing others. Charges are not coming soon, they said.
Hansen's lawyer, Leonard Goodman, said he would be skeptical about anything the informant says, criticizing him as a "career con man."
A lawyer for another man the informant has said was present during her murder said he has no idea what the informant's motive might be but said his client rejects any notion he was behind the killing of Brach.
"He knows what he has read in the papers and seen on TV."
Reached by phone in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, the former suburban police officer the informant says beat Brach dismissed anything that any informant might have to say.
"I've never seen her or met the woman, and I didn't do anything to her for anybody."

[havaklu]

Another article (http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/iteam/010505_ns_brach.html)

[havaklu]

The local ABC affiliate is really trying to spice this up...

Helen Brach murder mystery: Mob hoodlums carried out crime (http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/iteam/010605_ns_brach.html)

[melliebay Aefvue Farms Chesapeake Bay]

I can only think of one member of the Chicago horse mafia that is currently at a show in Florida. Can't wait to find out if I'm right!

[wtywmn4]

So if the policeman is the key Janetfornow, are they trying to extradite him? And it is entertainment, look theres a thread on it again. I am not condoning what happened by any means. But do you really think we will find out what happened? The worse scenario of any of this, is the three children that were killed. That to me, is the most unspeakable of it all.

[A/O Jumper]

This story is crazy and I am very intrigued by it. I never knew that many details about it until it came back up in the news.
I saw this special on A&E the other day called "City Confidential" and it was all about the Helen Brach murder and the Chicago Horse Mafia. Of course, I fell asleep in the last 10 minutes and missed the end.

[hiddenlake]

With all due respect, Janetfornow, did this friend ask Saddlers Row why the case couldn't be discussed at the shop? Perhaps there was an innocent relative or friend of one of the parties there within earshot and Frances was aware of it (I assume she was the one who requested that the discussion stop); perhaps she just doesn't want to add to the ongoing stigma about Chicago horsepeople.

I'm not trying to flame here; I just think she should have been asked privately rather than opening up the issue on a BB where it's easy to make assumptions. Frances might have had a very innocent reason for her decision and I don't know if it's fair to her to bring it up here without knowing more.

It's a stretch, but it's conceivable that some could think that there's some 'sinister' reason Frances didn't want customers discussing it, and unless your friend really knows that's the case I would be careful about opening the issue.

[janetfornow]

Upon further discussion and debate I have been asked to remove my posts. Nothing sinister was perceived. I would suggest you do the same Hiddenlake. The whole issue has grown triplefold by forbidding a response to a simple question relating to this thread. A reaction that should have been considered.

[frisbee32]

Melliebay-Check you pt's

[Lionheart]

There have always been so many speculations as to what has happened to Brach's body. There was the fireplace, as well as some stalls that had new concrete floors put in. There is the headless body in the potters grave. Now the blast furnace... I'm not sure if we'll ever know the truth.

I can say that the "cop" also used to be a horse shoer.

[Giddy-up]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lionheart:
... I'm not sure if we'll ever know the truth. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. There are so many people involved--so&so told so&so who told so&so to tell so&so. So&so saw so&so who saw so&so. It's the 3rd, 4th, 5th party idea expanded. And nobody knows who the so&so's are if they are too far down on the time line.

[tblagg1110]

The worst part is that some people with the family name like the Jaynes or the Hansen's who no longer associate with these family members have judgements made against them because of bad apples. And these family members do not support or condone or have anything to do with what is going on. They all run nice stables now including Hansen's son.

[Glimmerglass]

Some front page story in today's Tribune:

Chicago Tribune 3/9/05 "Officials split over new tale of Brach death" (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0503090300mar09,1,2117791.story)

excerpt:

In the informant's version of events, a group of men involved in Brach's death traveled to Rochester, Minn., where she was having a checkup at the Mayo Clinic, sources said. They persuaded her to ride back to Chicago with them a day before her scheduled flight home.

The informant was at Hansen's stable in Tinley Park when Brach's Cadillac arrived, according to the informant's statement, which was recorded by ATF special agent John Rotunno. After the car pulled into the middle of the horse arena, the other men popped open the trunk and the informant saw Brach's battered body wrapped in a blanket. He recognized her from horse shows, he said.

After she moaned, he said, one of the other men tossed him a revolver. He caught it, he said, and "looked up towards the group in total shock."

When he was given the ultimatum, he fired a first round and "it appeared as if the blanket `jumped,'" according to his statement.

[snip]

John Gorman, spokesman for Cook County State's Atty. Richard Devine, declined to comment on any specifics, but said, "The Brach investigation remains open."

[Giddy-up]

Ohhhh...so who was this person?? Perhaps the person who really wanted her gone?

(excerpt from article)
"...a messenger had visited a senior member of the group of horse swindlers at the Vienna Correctional Center on Feb. 17, 1977."

I have to agree with investigators. This informant keeps changing the story & facts. It sounds fishy. I am sure there is some truth in there, but with all the lies & inconsistencies, it's hard to believe him/her now.

[equitationlane]

How odd that the article doesn't name names. It is all amatter of public record, including the "person" at the correctional insituttion.

The plot thickens.

[The natural]

Well, Lionheart, I at least am getting some form of closure about this case. My wife and I used to ride at the old North Shore Stables, and my wife rode there when Bailey still owned it. My wife was fairly friendly with one of the instructors, who told my wife about her suspicions regarding the newly-poured concrete stall flooring. This was before we left the area in 1989. We were always so spooked about it, that we never said anything to anyone and always wondered if the story had gotten out. Thanks to your post, I know it has probably long since been debunked.

[myleetlepony]

New interview with Joe Plemmons:

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/032205_ns_brach.html

[Giddy-up]

Wow. I saw Channel 5 last night which wasn't that informative. All they had to say was Bailey's request to shorten his sentence was denied despite what the informant had to say in regards to Brach's murder. I don't belive they even ID'd the informant either.

Having watched the Channel 7 clip--anybody else notice the name of the farm in Pennsylvania is called Starlight Farms (or however he spelled it)?? I though it was ironic considering Brach Candy calls their peppermints "starlights". Hmmm....

[PineHillFarm]

My Gosh! I have grown up with tales of the Brach case. I started riding at North Shore Stables in 1982. The older kids used to tease me, shut the lights off in the isle, tell me Helen was gonna get me! lol

Unfortunately I knew Richard Bailey & worked for his wife Eunice, (Betty) whatever,lol for a number of years at WillowBrook Acres. I have also run into Frank Jayne during some horse deals with another old trainer. I also used to train with Dan.

I loved the book HOT BLOOD. There were so many names in there that I could put a face to that had been aquantinces. F R E A K Y!

I am just glad they are finally getting down to the truth!

[Ski Bum]

i've never heard of joe plemmons before. hmm this is all so sad. tblagg-what stable does kenneth hansen's son run?
-- Kristin

[PineHillFarm]

DAn HAnsen, GRR what a SCUM! Yet another of chicagoland most nasty! Last I heard he sold his place in IL and has retired. Anyone else hear this? I forgot the name of his place http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif.

[libgrrl]

Joe Plemmons...Mr. Cryostar???

[Sswor]

White Birch

[Ski Bum]

i've never even heard of white birch before. i hope this all gets resolved but i doubt it ever will. so much lying and deceit on everyones part. its hard to think that this whole big tangled web can be undone.
-Kristin

[myleetlepony]

White Birch is/was in Libertyville. Not sure if it's still there, but it's listed in the Midwest Stables Directory.

[Snowbird]

You know this thread makes me wonder! We had 13 pages of vilification because a judge at an unrecognized show was given a beer by the management.

I wonder if these people are equally irate about competing in a show and associating with a self confessed murderer who has a horse farm in Pa. He copped a plea of immunity so he'll be at a lot of very prestigious shows, paid for by the very money he received for killing Helen Brach no doubt. I wonder if it's just a coincidence his farm is name "Starlyte"?

I wonder if a can of beer is a bigger crime to some people than murdering a client? He makes quite a role model for the children don't you think?

Where is the loud clammor to have his membership cancelled for "acting in a manner that was not in the Best interest of the sport or the Federatiom" Rule GR706 1m.

[Heidi]

Who wants to play 'Cause Horse People Are So Darn Compassionate?

My predictions...

His business will not suffer as a result of his 'confession'; in fact, clients will rally around with comments like, 'well, he's always been a complete professional', 'I trust him completely and he's helped me sooo much'; with a measure of, 'well, everyone's just jealous of Joe' thrown in as a gift with purchase.

[ASClaire]

So does anyone out there remember Joe Plemmons when he was here in IL? Used to date a (very nice) woman named Barb K (then also a rider/trainer). Hopefully she's no longer associated with him! (I noticed in the clip last night that they talked about the PA farm he "shares with his girlfriend"...)
Anyone here that used to ride with him? (My knowledge dates back to the early '70s of him).
The thing I find hard to stomach is that he is a convicted felon AND now admits to killing someone, yet can be walking around freely...

[keke414]

I read Hot Blood several years ago but haven't really followed this matter since. Did the AHSA/USEF ban this Plemmons guy back when? I know they banned a number of people associated with the horse killings. Guess not, if he was at horse show in FL. Also, if I recall right, Helen Brach had a brother who inherited some of her estate and was possibly her estate representative. Now that this has come out, I wonder about the possibility of a civil suit against Plemmons by the brother?

[SoEasy]

Just to end the speculation, Starlyte Farm was named long before Joe Plemmons came to PA.

[melliebay Aefvue Farms Chesapeake Bay]

Joe's current girlfriend is Christine Hunt. He is the same as Cryostar and Starlyte farms. I have known them both for about 6 years, and am very sad to hear that his involvement ran as deep as it did. They were very very good to me when I was a working student for another trainer.

[Weatherford]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by keke414:
I read Hot Blood several years ago but haven't really followed this matter since. Did the AHSA/USEF ban this Plemmons guy back when? I know they banned a number of people associated with the horse killings. Guess not, if he was at horse show in FL. Also, if I recall right, Helen Brach had a brother who inherited some of her estate and was possibly her estate representative. Now that this has come out, I wonder about the possibility of a civil suit against Plemmons by the brother? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to one of the articles, the brother died a couple of years ago.

According to a lawyer, JP's announcing (confessing) that he actually shot Helen brach is enough to indict him. It is doubtful that his immunity covers murder.

[tblagg1110]

Dan Hansen does run a barn called White Birch in Wisconsin. He moved from Illinois to get away from all the crap and have a nice life up there. I board my horse there and have nothing but wonderful things to say about him and his stable!! He has been wonderful that day I stepped in the door. When I heard about his dad I asked another boarder about it and she said that Dan stole things and stuff when he was younger and admits it was wrong. But he has never done anything to any horses or anyone. His father on the other hand is in jail and deserves to be whether he did what they say or not because he has done some other horrible things.
But Dan has nothing to do with his father and Dan is almost 50 and really just teaching lessons and relaxing. He is a great person, and loves the animals as if they were his own. He may have been a goofy kid growing up or in his 20's but everyone has a past. I am not going to hold anything from 20 years ago against him when it was little small things.

Now Dan just wants to give his lessons, and have a good time at the barn. He decorates the entire place for every major holiday, and just makes the place a lot of fun. So people can change and over come who their parents are.

[Snowbird]

And then he is not responsible for the sins of his father. I don't think evil is genetic contrary to myth, I think as individuals we have to be responsible for ourselves.

Now, a self confessed murderer on national TV advertising his business I find very scary.

[Carol Ames]

ou know as i was reading "hot blood" i asjed myself why i was in the business,it is painfully accurate, and, honest about the horse business, and, the people in it.does anyone else have an opnion?

[tblagg1110]

You can be in the horse business around here without showing and getting caught up in everything. Some trainers have had a enough with the bad rap and the stories so just have their own places to give lessons and enjoy it. Like Dan Hansen has told me. There are a lot of people that he knows in Illinois from the circuit that he would never be caught even having lunch with much less associated with.

[Weatherford]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carol Ames:
ou know as i was reading "hot blood" i asjed myself why i was in the business,it is painfully accurate, and, honest about the horse business, and, the people in it.does anyone else have an opnion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Carol - I had some correspondance with Ken Englade, the author, some time ago, and he said that the reality of the who situation was FAR WORSE than what he wrote... He had names (never to be revealed) of BIG stars in our H/J world who were NOT caught in the scandals, OR for whom the statute of limitations had run out!!! It wasn't worth his life to say who these people were, but, from the sounds of it, there were plenty of those whom are well loved by all... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Makes you wonder why we do it?! Remember, SOMEONE has to stick up for the horses - and that IS why some of us are still involved.

[Snowbird]

It's a very gray clammy day so maybe that affects my attitude but I am beginning to feel very despondent. It seems to me that with little unimportant people we have no failure to land on them with both feet.

Take the thread on a judge with a beer. The competitors were incensed that an official would have one beer, it was disrespectful to the competitiors. The exposed beer can was going to destroy the morals of the children

BUT...I have seen nothing to that effect about Plemmons who admitted and confessed on national TV that he shot a woman who was already almost dead from beating her. And that lady was one of us who wanted to report the abuse to the horses.

Here we are years later and the culprits are living off the fat of the sport. Yet there are people running shows who are fined thousands of dollars for errors in bookkeeping and those who have been caught drugging their horses are made excuses for, so they can continue. And the same ones are getting caught two, three and more times but we can't get a list of how many times each was caught to protect their privacy.

I paid all my fines for a bad year of personal problems that made the paper work an unbearable load. Everything got to the Federation that had anything to do with the interests of the exhibitors and the the numbers of horses. I even had $1800 in credits for punctuality. Yes! I didn't file the Hunter Increment Report Yes! I didn't file the Post Show Report but they had my credit cards and the Stewards Report.

Everything has been paid in full and then some. BUT now they want to have a hearing saying I violated the rules. But, the rules are not now violated and I was made an offer to settle for an additional $5,000 and a notation of being in violation of the rules in Equestrian. I have never once been charged or posted as a violator of any rule before this.

I object because I am not in violation any more and they can't say that I am if all the fines are paid to me this is double jeopardy and plain extortion.

Now on the other hand we have people who are more important than me and better connected politically who have been found guilty of abusing their horses and thereby altering the results of classes and awards. They get a smaller fine and they get their punishment during weeks when either they wouldn't show or where it's easy to hire someone to take their place and communicate by radio from off the grounds.Nothing lost, all gain for the times they weren't caught.

I won't bore you with all the problems I've had which were the reason why the past year from 2003-2004 all my paper work wasn't done but it would fit easily under personal hardship and an Act of God. I have a 30+ year record of never having had a hearing for any violation and of never having any unpaid fines. My crime is only tardiness.

It didn't change the results of any sports Event which would be a violation of the Ricco Racketeering Laws. It didn't injure any horse, pony or person. It did no damage to anyone but me with the fines and they were paid.

If the Federation and the Competitors can't see the differences between a beer can exposed at an unrecognized show and a confessed murderer being with them and their children in competition then where are we?

The prestigious shows "the quality" shows permit access to all sorts of people with vile criminal history but the Federation is making it so offensive to run plain family shows that they will cease to exist and with them the open green space in every community in the country.

Yet, these real culprits go on their merry way with the rich and the powerful. Helen Brach was one of the rich and powerful and her "confessed" murderer is rubbing elbows with them, and competing against them. GEE! I wonder what would happen if he loses?

Will we have disappearing judges, or others who might win?

Does anyone see the illogic of this kind of governance?

[Sebastian]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Snowbird:

If the Federation and the Competitors can't see the differences between a beer can exposed at an unrecognized show and a confessed murderer being with them and their children in competition then where are we?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good point. And, something that seems to be pervasive throughout our entire culture.

Seb http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[JustJump]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote:
Originally posted by Snowbird:

If the Federation and the Competitors can't see the differences between a beer can exposed at an unrecognized show and a confessed murderer being with them and their children in competition then where are we? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Honestly SB, there ARE those of us who view both of these scenarios as undesirable.

[Snowbird]

And do you think we will have 13 pages of discussing how dreadful it is to have to be standing next to a confessed mureder at the "quality" shows. And what a bad influence that might for children who are thinking of killing their classmates.

Can you begin to imagine how infuriated and injured I feel being charged with "an action not in the best interest of the sport and the Federation" under GR706 1m.

Yet, there is a man who killed a horse owner and a lady who was a sponsor because she was going to call he cops to report them. He can make an announcemenyt on national TV about how corrupt this sport is and he is quite acceptable.

Is he going to be charged and fined enough money to pay for the bad publicity. Why are they spending all their office time harrassing those of us who do not play in that sandbox?

I have yet to know what action of mine merits a charge of not "acting in the best interests of the sport and Federation"? What was it? I paid my fines is that what I did wrong?

[OAK]

Gee have you asked them the USEF or do you have to wait for your hearing. It is VERY SIMPLE they are out to get ANYONE who is not complying with their rules. Not giving an inch one way or another.

[Snowbird]

But OAK I didn't breaks any rules, I was tardy and I paid every fine for every minute I was late. I owe them nothing except for the next show.

This as I said double jeopardy or double dipping - double charging for the same tardiness twice is not legal.

I will not participate in a hearing until I have the opportunity for the USOC Grievance to be heard. Right now I am not in violation of anything but if I have the hearing they can double the costs to $10,000 and then I will be in violation until I pay it. You can imagine what the chances would be for a refund. Please by all means all of you read the Refund policies in the New Licensing proposal.

I filed for my Grievance Hearing and if they do not notify the USOC then I will. That's exactly the problem there is nothing in the By-Laws of USEF where we can file a grievance against them. If there was I would file under the same charge of GR706 1m."not acting in the best interest of the sport and the Federation".

It is bad enough the way they are harrassing the members and not to take any action after the man confesses publicly he murdered Helen Brach is pure hypocracy. This is not in the best interest of any association.

All there is in USEF is the assumption of guilt and then quality of punishment. They cannot be charged with a violation except through the USOC.

There is nothing in the By-Laws and Rules of the USOC that says you have to first have a Hearing by the NGB before they can involved it is clear that any member of an NGB or an Affiliate of the NGB is entitled to be heard if they have a grievance against the Federation. GR 605 is the only protection we have.

Obviously my crime is worse than the murder of a horse owner. He's socially acceptable and I'm supposed to to pay or get out. Do you think either attitude is in the best interest of the sport?

[khobstetter]

I like this discussion and I feel AWFUL for Snowbird and her predicament...BUT!!!

This thread is about the Jaynes and those issues.

Snowbird..I AM NOT telling you what to do...!!!!

I am HOWEVER...asking that you start another thread about your issue..I think there are alot of people who would like to comment and post regarding your plight BUT it is LOST on this thread about the Jaynes....

Ths problem you are having could be a very active thread of it's own and all of us can find it with that title...

[Snowbird]

How nice of you Kathy, but you shouldn't be so obsessed. The issue is clearly comparative as to the way that various crimes are treated. In case you couldn't follow the thinking we have:

1. The total disapproval of a judge drinking a beer while judging on a thread and the severity with which the competitors dealt with his crime. And then what was the crime, it's influence on the children and a general disrespect for sport.

2. We have a general apathy about a confessed murderer being accepted into horse society. And the influence of that on the sport which also severely affects the children. The Federation has taken no action to show this is a violation of GR706 1m. Not acting in the best interests of the sport and the Federation. Thereby implying by their abstention that it is ok! and not injurious to the sport and the Federation.

I find it an interesting contrast.

3. We have my problem of tardiness logically based on a real hardship and the way that is being treated by the administration as a charge under GR706 1m. GR706 1m. Not acting in the best interests of the sport and the Federation.
Now being late with giving the Federation Funds that is a heinous crime deserving of immediate attention and large penalty.

I think this is a valid comparative as to whether the punishment fits the crimes. I'm sure if you take the time to read my posts you will understand the logical reasoning even if you would rather not.

I think it is not unlike considering various punishments for first time offenders and habitual criminals.

Child molesters versus pick pockets and other comparatives. I think it is an interesting contrast to a maudlin discussion of horror which goes no where but in an endless circle.

You are spending too much time working and you have forgotten that we are all free and do not require anyone's approval for our thoughts so long as they do not do injury to another.

I think this it is more constructive than thinking oh! well that's life...or that's society. We are the ones who mold society into our image.

You like me are an advocate of BE HEARD -GET INVOLVED - BE CONNECTED!

So far we have both followed that rule. But Kathy that's the point it is not my topic I wish to discuss it is Crime and Punishment. I will deal with my issue in an appropriate way.
I don't think anyone is compelled to post to any one of the three issues. So without your blessing I prefer not to have a separate thread but leave it as a comparative dialog.

[khobstetter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> You are spending too much time working and you have forgotten that we are all free and do not require anyone's approval for our thoughts so long as they do not do injury to another.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>PLEASE do not tell me what I have and haven't forgotten, especially when you bold it and yell.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I think this it is more constructive than thinking oh! well that's life...or that's society. We are the ones who mold society into our image.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>PLEASE do not assume what I am thinking!!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> So without your blessing I prefer not to have a separate thread but leave it as a comparative dialog </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You are certainly free to do as you wish...and I DID state that in my post.

Excuse me if I thought you were wrongly treated in the rambling sceneario you posted on, excuse me if I thought that there were others who would benefit by hearing of your plight, sorry if I thought others may come to your defense, excuse me if I thought that there could be some constructive inputIF SOME OTHER PEOPLE COULD FIND IN ON A THREAD MORE APPROPRIATE!!

I simply made a suggestion, nothing more. Sooooooooooo sorry it took you such a long and rambling post to say no thanks, along with your personal assumptions of what I am doing with my time and how I think.

Post away here, it is certainly OK with me.

I DO however, think there are people who would like to know what happened and is happening to you BUT will never find it on the bottom of this thread!

Just a suggestion was all it was.

[radar]

From VERY personal experience, I suggest that Snowbird get a really good attorney familiar with USEF procedure, etc. What she says in a thread on this forum will just not matter, by comparison. I'm not flaming. I'm just trying to give truly helpful advice. Good luck!

[melliebay Aefvue Farms Chesapeake Bay]

I personally have been keeping up with this thread because of the original topic. I agree that Snowbird's complaint belongs somewhere else. I understand that sometimes threads get off topic, but with the length/detail of her posts, it really belongs in it's own thread.

[Party Rose]

I clicked on to this thread to see what all the new posts were. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif WOW...Lots for one day http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif . I thought that something new happened.

Snowbird, I have not read all of your posts and feel that you have great reason to be posting your concerns (GREAT topic by the way), but once again I find yet another thread being hijacked. I understand that you were trying to make a few comparisons, but it it rather lengthy.

I agree with the others & help both the posters & the moderators out and open a new thread. I know that you'll get http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif LOTS http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif of responses, but I gotta tell ya that if you keep posting off topic on this thread, no one is going to want to read what you've spent so much time & effort on composing.

Thanks & love ya from the West Coast http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif .

[Sswor]

Agreed. With both Snowbird and Knobstetter.

There seems to be two conflicting schools of thought in the Chicagoland area regarding the Helen Brach disappearence:

A. That those who were invloved with the Helen Brach disappearence and the horse killings for insurance fraud scandals should be blacklisted and their reputations ruined. These A. folks can't quite figure out how any of them are still making a living here. The indictements and the incarcerations and the crimes were very much public record and all over the news, even in a book for goodness sake, so EVERYONE should know the stories, right? Problem seems to be there was, and still is, so much gossip on the subject, over half the professionals in the area over the age of 30 seem to have "been invloved" on some level. Do we blacklist them all? Do we shun anyone who's name we've heard in the same breath as "Brach" or "Jayne"? But then which Jayne are we talking about then? Aren't there "good" Jaynes and "bad" Jaynes? And that Richard Bailey guy. Didn't so-and-so used to work for him? While we're at it, we probably shouldn't board at/ride at/buy a horse from/show at Farm X, because so-and-so works out of that place/used to be there/is friends with the BM/BO/head trainer. Oy, I'm confused. But good lord don't talk about it in public (ie. Francis) because you never know who might hear you and know someone else who might not want you discussing it. So shush!

and then there's

B. That was a long time ago and everyone's either dead or in jail. Everyone else was aquitted or wasn't really involved. And even if they were, well, everyone deserves a second chance, right? After all, murder/fraud/conspiracy/killing a horse/etc. has nothing to do with so-and-so's ability to train/teach/sell horses/manage a barn/adjust horses chiropracticly/etc. anyway. So let's move on!

So, from the local angle, both ways of thinking are a little wacked out.

Although I gather from this thread that Joe Plemmons remains a memeber in good standing with the USEF (or whatever)? That can't be right...?

(edited because my spelling sucks tonight)

[Party Rose]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">ou know as i was reading "hot blood" i asjed myself why i was in the business,it is painfully accurate, and, honest about the horse business, and, the people in it.does anyone else have an opnion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I was s _ _ 'd, well "nailed" as a child & then when I moved to Hawaii I realized how much politics there really was, especially when one is riding & showing pluggy school horses and beating everyone else and while wearing jodphers & paddock boots at 17/18 years old in upper eqs, inc. medals & 3'6 hunters. I stopped, did a very short 1/2 lease (more bull) 8 years later, did another 1/2 lease a year after that (CRAZY owners), stopped again, so basically I didn't ride for @ 22 years.

The problem is that horses run in our blood and our in our souls and it is so very hard to be away from them. What else is there to replace all of the wonderful feelings that they give us?

[Snowbird]

I am not interested in a thread of my own. I have never advertiseed myself in the court of public opinion because I live by my own values and no one else's. I have on this site scrupulously avoided any taint of my personal problems or projects. My personal issues I will deal with the appropriate way. I wish others would do the same.

Unlike some others I do not spend a great deal of time applauding my self so you will know how wonderful I am. What I think of me is what matters to me. I know what I do well and what I do badly and I am courteous enough not to critque the writers who I feel write badly because in the big picture what I think is irrelevant.

To those with good advice thank you and to the critics who want to disect me please feel free to start a thread if you wish. I don't feel any need to defend myself or to fend off barbs and snipes from wannabes.

I attempt to inform and to awaken curiosity and not gossip. If you do not like my posts feel free not to read them. If you don't like me so be it but it is a free world so far. I am not hijacking this thread. I believe that there is a measurement of severity in crimes.

Liking, disliking and criticism is not where I am. I enjoy the exchange of ideas and philosophy. Sometimes silly and even I am at times light and curious. I have patience with those who do not understand my sometimes abstract thoughts and would expect the same courtesy in return.

Aswor thank you! I think you understand my point.It was not that long a time ago altogether and just a couple of weeks ago I heard a man admit to shooting a helpless woman who had tried to do a good thing and he shot her. The fact that her family died without knowing what happened to her I find extremely offensive.

That anyone can sweep this under the carpet as a member of my elder generation I find shocking. When I see the time being wasted on petty and irrelevant issues and when something like this needs to addressed I find it depressing for the future.

Yes! I gave up my life in Fine Arts and Fashion for horses which I dearly love. I also love most four legged creatures and find them more honest and communicative than the two legged variety that seems much more herd bound.

I cannot comprehend 13 pages of dispute over a glass of beer and a "well that's life" over a killer. I cannot comprehend the office of a Federation that is more worried about whether or not someone has the right number in the right place than than there is a killer walking among us.

To me this sport and competition is not a matter of bookkeeping, money or even winning. Maybe that's why I don't like to see someone who has cheated be a winner. It teaches the wrong thing to the next generation. That is a much worse lesson than whether or not someone imbibes alcohol or smokes a real cigarette in stead of the other kind of mood altering substances.

[radar]

Snowbird, you are missing the point. Your subject matter doesn't have anything to do with Chicago, or the Jaynes, who certainly aren't ALL bad..... make a notation in this thread and start your own if it's important enough.....

[khobstetter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I have never advertiseed myself in the court of public opinion </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I have on this site scrupulously avoided any taint of my personal problems or projects </div></BLOCKQUOTE>BUT..on this thread, ON THIS SITE, about the Jaynes and Chicago, you have posted lengthy dialog about how awful the USEF is to you at this point...I think it is fair to feel you HAVE posted about YOUR problemS with USEF into the court of public opinion.

MY POINT is simple again....and I DO understand the comparision...a separate thread would serve better to get your information out.

On this thread, I (and others) wish to read about the Jaynes and Chicago and THOSE issues....not your personal fight with USEF, it is off topic for this thread.

[Party Rose]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">On this thread, I (and others) wish to read about the Jaynes and Chicago and THOSE issues....not your personal fight with USEF, it is off topic for this thread. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now, getting back to the Jaynes, does anyone have anything new to add?

I wonder if volume II in the works http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif ????

[fleur]

snowbird, i think that issue has been hashed out here on the h/j board in the form of harsh, harsh criticism of paul valliere continuing to train and being asked to judge at horse shows. if i recall correctly that issue spurred several 10+ page threads. or how about ken kraus? (is that his name? the towerheads guy?) again IIRC there were plenty of people that were pretty irate at the idea of him being around horse shows. so i don't think it's fair to assume that everyone feels that a judge drinking a beer is a far worse threat than a person of questionable history at a show, nor that it causes more controversy here on the BB.

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Snowbird:
I am not interested in a thread of my own. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, well, that much is obvious...

Whether or not you're interested, you've been politely asked to let this topic continue on its stated and intended path.

Now I'm asking not-so-nicely... start a new topic if you want to discuss who should and shouldn't be ostracized in the horse show world or why the USEF should have given you a break on your paperwork.

BTW, I'm relatively sure that the USEF can't suspend someone until charges have actually been filed, and it doesn't seem that charges have been filed in this instance yet.

[Snowbird]

C'est la vie Erin,

I have no interest in a thread about my personal issues with anyone and never have been. Obviously my attempt at a comparison was not effectly presented.

I think that a confession on national TV warrants a charge and who do you suppose will be willing to make it? Helen Brach was a factor in exposing the Jayne situation. To my knowledge from his dialog Joe Plemmons was a part of the Jayne gang.

Interesting that in general, threads get into comparative areas without your intervention. I will of course abide by in your own words a "not so polite" invitation to desist.

Is all criticism of the establishment included in your current rules? And all posts you consider off topic as well?

[Erin]

Snowbird, get over yourself and quit the woe-is-me act.

You constantly drag your own agenda into topics where it has no place, and people are TIRED of it. What part of that don't you get?

If you think that your comparison is valid, and if you think your criticism of USEF is valid, start a new topic and people who are interested will join in.

The problem is that people here are interested in talking about a different subject -- the new facts of the Brach case -- and you're derailing that subject.

I couldn't give a crap about whether or not you want to criticize "the establishment." I only care that this BB is enjoyable for as many posters as possible, and you are making this thread not enjoyable for a lot of people. Please stop being so selfish.

Having grown up in Chicago and having gotten to know several former members of the U.S. attorney's office there during the Lindemann trial, I can assure you that if that office CAN bring charges in this case, they WILL. This whole matter is a HUGE BIG DEAL in Chicago. Huge.

So while I'm sure it will mean a great deal to the U.S. attorney's office that YOU think a charge should have been filed already, why don't you let them do their job, and let the people who want to discuss the case do so without trying to harangue them into talking about a different subject just because YOU think it is important.

And this has nothing to do with whether or not threads get into comparative areas, whether or not you're criticizing "the establishment," or whether or not *I* consider the posts off topic. This has to do with the fact that you are hijacking the thread, people have politely asked you to stop and you haven't, and so people have resorted to asking me to step in, so I have. Take the hint. Go start a new thread.

[Snowbird]

Thank you so much Erin for your well expressed tactful and considerate critque. It certainly helps clear the air.

[OAK]

Erin -

We all agreed about a seperate thread about what Snowbird keeps putting on the topic. So I hope I have helped out and I started a new topic. I sure do hope it helps.

[PineHillFarm]

All I can say is.. WOW

[JulieMontgomery]

Thank you Erin. Your comments were right on the money, and much appreciated by many of us.
(Although I would not place a bet on whether or not or topic will be allowed to continue without being further derailed ... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)

[melliebay Aefvue Farms Chesapeake Bay]

Thanks Erin!

[houndsRus]

Here’s an old Chicago horse world woman who’s been uncomfortable with all these discussions from the beginning finally chiming in.

I think all of us who are of a “certain age” and grew up in the Chicago area have been touched by this mess. Our formative years in the sport were shaped by fear and fires, threats and thugs, death and dismemberment. If it did not happen to you it happened to a barn-mate, a friend or someone you knew from the shows. It was not fun, it was not funny, it hurt many more people than those you read and hear about. Memories like this only fade so far.

I would hazard a guess that most of us know that the truth is know to some, but that it most likely will never be known in public. This is the mantel that has shrouded the equestrian world in Northern Illinois for as long as I can remember. I would hazard as well that most of us have made our peace with the reality of the world in which we have lived all these decades.

If others want gawk and talk, than so be it, it’s a part of the fabric of our mantel as well.

I would ask two things:
1. Please do try to remember with some compassion in your hearts that many still carry pain from the things about which you gawk and talk. There are real people just like you woven into the depth of these stories.

2. Though I am not now, nor have I ever been associated with the Jaynes, it might be nice, to change the title of this thread. It has not been about them since the original posts, the current Jaynes are quite distanced from their notorious relatives (as established in the early replies) and this thread is now (hopefully) about Dan, Joe and Richard et. al., the bad boys. Again how about out of compassion…

Thanks for giving ear to the music of an ol’hound.

[tblagg1110]

Dan who are you considering a bad boy? If you are talking about Dan Hansen then he is not involved and never has with this. His father was I am sure, but Dan was not so please take his name away and use Ken his dad's name

[Sswor]

All of the posts yelling at Snowbird and congratulating Erin are who are off topic and are distracting to this thread in general. THAT is what is making it not enjoyable to read for those of us trying to discuss the OT. I tried to bridge the gap between the Helen Brach topic and the comparison Snowbird posed two pages ago (which I get, thank you) and was buried in all the "get your own thread" banter.

Yawn. Sillyness. Yet strangely amusing.

[houndsRus]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gifcompassion???...yes, dan jayne

[melliebay Aefvue Farms Chesapeake Bay]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">All of the posts yelling at Snowbird and congratulating Erin are who are off topic and are distracting to this thread in general. THAT is what is making it not enjoyable to read for those of us trying to discuss the OT </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think anyone was "yelling" at Snowbird, I think many people politely asked to get the topic back on track and those requests were denied. I find it highly unlikely that those short replies and words of relief that we didn't have to listen to anymore of the rambling were more annoying than Snowbird's off-topic rants to anyone other than you, sswor.

Now, back to the original topic....do any of you lawyerly people out there have any input as to whether or not Joe's immunity will protect him in light of his confession?

[Party Rose]

houndsRus - I know it took a lot for you to put your thoughts into written words. My minor involvement with some of the key players from my childhood pale in comparrison.

I applaud you for your courage and in many other areas and I do hope that this thread can stay on track with only the facts discussed.

[Snowbird]

I consider this a personal attack even if it is the moderator!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Snowbird, get over yourself and quit the woe-is-me act.

You constantly drag your own agenda into topics where it has no place, and people are TIRED of it. What part of that don't you get?

If you think that your comparison is valid, and if you think your criticism of USEF is valid, start a new topic and people who are interested will join in.

The problem is that people here are interested in talking about a different subject -- the new facts of the Brach case -- and you're derailing that subject.

I couldn't give a crap about whether or not you want to criticize "the establishment." I only care that this BB is enjoyable for as many posters as possible, and you are making this thread not enjoyable for a lot of people. Please stop being so selfish. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it's the Moderator's job to say what is relevant and I don't think personal attacks are in compliance with the rules of this BB. And certainly not from the moderator.

That being said my issue was and is why this person's confesson on National TV is not acting in a manner "not in the best interests of the sport or the Federation?" Has he been charged with any violation of GR706 1m.? Will he be charged as a violator to any rule of the Federation?

[Cindeye]

*pulls chair up closer, grabs BIG bottle of Pinot Noir and hunkers down for a long watch at the side of the tennis match*

I've been watching this thread for months. Now it's really getting interesting. I hope this thread will stay on track, but I doubt that it will. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

After 25 years away from the business, another COTHer pointed me toward Hot Blood. I read it, but frankly wasn't surprised. Growing up in Buffalo and traveling to many A shows in Chicago, there were always rumors about the Chicago boys and numerous trailer "accidents," barn fires and night visitors to horse shows. I always thought the rumors were just sour grapes from unsuccessful riders. When Helen Brach disappeared, I was completely shocked that people were speculating about the same Chicago boys being invoved...talk about naive! Sometimes I wish I could return to the time when I was able to believe that rumors were just rumors. Unfortunately, now that I'm an old poop, I've had enough experience to know that there is a percentage of truth in most rumors.

I can't say I'm happy...because thinking about individuals who kill people and horses does not make me happy...but I'm certainly gratified that justice finally seems to be on the way for many involved individuals.

[radar]

ok... it's awful. Probably what the USEF is doing to you is awful, Snowbird. Start a new topic for that. Keep the commentary to the thread it's involved with. I've had my problems with the USEF process. They don't belong here.....

[Snowbird]

Thank you radar but that's what I'm doing I want to know if the USEF is upset about having a confessed murderer competing in Florida and rubbing elbows with children.

I wonder if the judges are pinning his horses because they are afraid they too will disappear?
This is not supposition this is not rumor this is a man who says what he did on national TV.

Now, if the mission is national corporate sponsors then can they be anxious to sponsor a sport that has confessed killers walking around and competing in the shows? I doubt that's an image they will find attractive. ABC is not exactly a small time place to confess.

[Party Rose]

I think that a visit to the eye & ear Doctors are in order here. HELLO..................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I've had enough experience to know that there is a percentage of truth in most rumors </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Good one Cindeye! I'll have to keep that in this "old poops" memory bank for future reference.

[melliebay Aefvue Farms Chesapeake Bay]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wonder if the judges are pinning his horses because they are afraid they too will disappear? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doubtful, the last I heard, Joe has only jumpers.

I can certainly sympathize with you, Cindeye, I also thought many of these "stories" were false. As I said, I have known Joe for about 6 years now, and he has been wonderful to me the whole time. Gave me horses to ride, fed me, gave me a ride home from Ocala one year, etc etc. He even gave my brother a job and at the time my brother didn't know saddle soap from Saddl-Tite. (Beacuse of this there is a humorous story that embarasses my brother). My ex-fiance also hauled his horses to and from Mississppi a couple years ago, and Joe treated him like gold. None of this excuses his behavior all those years ago in any way, but these are just examples of why so many of the "key players" in the horse killings are accepted into horse shows with open arms. Unless you were there, so much of it seems like rumor and unbelievable and the people involved are many times what you and I would consider "good people" if we didn't know their history.

A few years ago during a different winter in Ocala I was getting instruction from a former member of the USET (member in the 60's) who could not come to the show and watch me or train me because he was banned. Though from time to time he did put on a disguise and show up anyway. Sounds crazy right? I learned a lot from him, and one of the big things I learned is that he is one of those people who animals and children alike gravitate towards. Do I believe he killed a horse or horses? I don't know. I think he paid his debt though and has been upstanding ever since and I believe everyone deserves a second chance.

As all of us know, the horse show world is small and political. When these killings were going on, it was even smaller. If you look at how an ugly helmet like a GPA caught on, it's easy to see that we are creatures of conformity and peer pressure. None of this excuses anything that happened to those horses or Helen Brach. (and I'm not comparing the GPA to murder, just talking about human nature) I'm just saying that sometimes people do stupid things.....really, really, stupid things. Those who have paid their debt should be allowed to live in some semblence of peace and those who have not will have someone more powerful than all of us to answer to.

[Anyplace Farm]

Oh Lordy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. You know, persistence can be a good thing. But it was also something that got me an a$$whippin' when I was a kid.

I feel a smack down comin' on. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

[Superhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by melliebay:

Now, back to the original topic....do any of you lawyerly people out there have any input as to whether or not Joe's immunity will protect him in light of his confession? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[khobstetter]

SUPERHORSE...GREAT QUESTION! It will be interesting to know if the immunity covers murder.

[Cudakid]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by khobstetter:
SUPERHORSE...GREAT QUESTION! It will be interesting to know if the immunity covers murder. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with Knobstetter. How does one admit shooting someone on network news with no repercussion?

[Snowbird]

And is not that confession adequate to charge him under the rules so he is suspended from attending our horse shows? Do we have to wait until he kills again?

[khobstetter]

Since this just hit the papers a couple of days ago I think it is unfair to "assume" nothing is being done.

I am sure USEF is just as appalled as we are and they need to get their legal ducks together before they start anything.

I for one think he goes right where Barney and the rest are...AWAY AWAY AWAY FROM THE SHOW RING FOREVER!!!!!

[Erin]

Um, Snowbird, you realize that the confession only aired on television FOUR days ago, right? And that three of those days were a holiday weekend?

Now, I hate to interject actual logic into this conversation, but if one actually stopped to think for a minute before before demanding that "someone do something", one just might realize a couple of things...

As I said before, I believe that the rules allow anyone who is CHARGED to be suspended... upon doing a little reading and refreshing my memory, it appears that the rule (as it was in 1994 when the original Chicago 23 were indicted and subsequently suspended from the then-AHSA) actually deals only with equine cruelty. Makes sense for an organization regulating equine sports to be able to pitch out members charged with equine cruelty, right?

I believe this is the actual current rule, under article 302:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">6. Following a hearing, U.S. Equestrian’s Hearing Committee may deny or suspend the
privilege to participate in or go upon the grounds of Recognized Competitions, and/or deny,
expel or suspend the privileges or membership in the Federation to any person, whether or
not a member of the Federation, whom an indictment, information or charge (criminal,
administrative, arbitral or civil) has asserted, or whom any civil, criminal or administrative
court or arbitration or other tribunal has found, to have committed or participated in any plan
or conspiracy to commit, any act of cruelty or abuse to a horse, whether or not any such
alleged or actual act, plan, or conspiracy occurred on the grounds of a Recognized
Competition, or was in conjunction with, or was an element of some other offense, actual or
alleged. For purposes of this subsection, cruelty and abuse shall include, but shall not be
limited to, any of the acts enumerated in Art. 302.4, and, in addition, killing, crippling,
abandoning, mistreating, neglecting, or any other form of abuse of a horse. (See Art. 614). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, George Lindemann actually sued the AHSA claiming they didn't have the right to suspend him when he'd only been indicted (for his role in having a horse killed, so it fell under the equine cruelty part), and had not actually been found guilty. (A point which later became moot, obviously.) You can read all about it here (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/5566064631/m/245208106).

Now, if it was hard to suspend someone who had actually BEEN CHARGED, do you think the now-USEF might just want to make sure they have all their ducks in a row before attempting to suspend someone who has NOT actually been charged?

And, if the rule only deals with charges of equine cruelty, it wouldn't even apply to other charges. (I would guess murder is more of a human cruelty...) I assume there are plenty of people convicted of crimes walking around at horse shows, since, as Heidi so astutely noted earlier, this industry has a long history of looking the other way.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Heidi:
Who wants to play 'Cause Horse People Are So Darn Compassionate?

My predictions...

His business will not suffer as a result of his 'confession'; in fact, clients will rally around with comments like, 'well, he's always been a complete professional', 'I trust him completely and he's helped me sooo much'; with a measure of, 'well, everyone's just jealous of Joe' thrown in as a gift with purchase. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bottom line: There may actually be no recourse in the rules, as they are currently written for the USEF to suspend Plemmons. Not saying that's a good or bad thing... that's just the way it currently is, unless I'm reading the rule wrong.

In the real world, it would seem likely that the CLIENTS of someone who had just confessed to murder on television would be jumping like rats off a sinking ship, whether or not he was actually suspended. Of course, this isn't the real world we're talking about, it's the H/J world in Florida in March. Hmm... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[khobstetter]

Erin...although it's a LONG shot I think there is a recourse...

There is a sentence under violations and penelities....."not in the best interest of the sport"..

They have the verbage..let's see if they use it.

[Snowbird]

GR706 1m.

It was also on TV networks in January and February.

[frisbee32]

Posted by Snowbird: "And is not that confession adequate to charge him under the rules so he is suspended from attending our horse shows? Do we have to wait until he kills again?"

I think that this is being overly dramatic, wondering if he will "kill again". Don't forget, some of us on here know him personally.

[Snowbird]

And the majority of us do not know him.

Except for the News broadcasts and stories written that he admitted what he has done and said it was for vengeance because she was going to report them to the Attorney General.

[Erin]

It was in the news in January and February, but it wasn't public knowledge who exactly had been doing the confessing until last week. Not that it was really all that hard to figure out, but...

Out of curiosity, is anyone aware of precedent in this sort of thing? Members who have been suspended for things other than breaking USEF rules? (Other than the insurance fraud people, of course.)

frisbee32, you haven't been around long, so let me assure that overly dramatic is probably EXACTLY what Snowbird was going for. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Moesha]

Sheba is somehow at the root of all of this. I saw her I saw her in Safeway buying several boxes of Maxi pads she claimed to be doing some school project for one of her triplets...but I think we know the truth now. And has anyone noticed how The Harpees have been flying to PA a lot lately? I think it is odd that they have found new nesting grounds for the summer...

[melliebay Aefvue Farms Chesapeake Bay]

Sheba is somehow at the root of all of this. I saw her I saw her in Safeway buying several boxes of Maxi pads she claimed to be doing some school project for one of her triplets...but I think we know the truth now. And has anyone noticed how The Harpees have been flying to PA a lot lately? I think it is odd that they have found new nesting grounds for the summer...
________________________________________________
Uhh, you lost me Moesha

Anyway, Snowbird, you hit the nail on the head, many people do NOT know Joe, so let's be a little sensitive to those that do.

We are talking about a murder that happened nearly 30 years ago. In the 30 years since then, Joe has had a solid gold reputation. (As much as any horse person can, anyway) Did he do something wrong? Absolutely. Is he currently a threat? Not so much. Whatever USAEq decides to do, and whatever happens in the legal battle, I stand behind the Joe I know. People do change. I think it took a lot of courage for him to finally come forward, knowing that it could very well end the business he has been building for many years.

[justjilli]

boy oh boy,,do i know i am not the same person i was 20-30 years ago.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[scrubs]

A few people I don't know eithter but sure as heck don't want them anywhere near me or my loved ones..
Lee Malvo
Ted Kaczynski
John Couey
I am sure there is a list of murderers you have no problem having around the horse shows - I'd love to know who these "not so dangerous" people are. Why is it that so many of you will tolerate murderers and child molesters??? How the heeck can someone like THAT help this sport??? Becasue they had a good horse or two? Because they have been in the horse business for so long? boggles my mind.

[Ride'emCO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now, George Lindemann actually sued the AHSA claiming they didn't have the right to suspend him when he'd only been indicted (for his role in having a horse killed, so it fell under the equine cruelty part), and had not actually been found guilty. (A point which later became moot, obviously.) You can read all about it here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure? Because it looks like a thread about Stubben Bridles... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[JulieMontgomery]

I'm with jackie and scrubs .... but those of y'all who want to consort with (or serve as apologists for) admitted killers, knock yourselves out. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[PineTreeFarm]

Erin said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bottom line: There may actually be no recourse in the rules, as they are currently written for the USEF to suspend Plemmons. Not saying that's a good or bad thing... that's just the way it currently is, unless I'm reading the rule wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe there is a way. see below 'any other matter'

GR609 Temporary Suspension.
In connection with any protest, charge, or any other matter which may properly fall within the jurisdiction of the Hearing Committee, and upon a finding that considerations involving the health, safety or welfare of Federation members and/or their horses, or the best interests of horse showing generally, warrant prompt action pending consideration of the matter by the Hearing Committee, the CEO or Executive Director may, by giving written notice of such action, temporarily suspend any person from participating in any manner in
the affairs of the Federation or participating in or attending all Recognized Competitions until the Hearing Committee can hear the protest, charge or other matter and take such further temporary or other disciplinary action as it deems appropriate under these Rules, including temporarily suspending any person from participating in any manner in the affairs of the Federation or participating in or attending all Recognized Competitions, until the Hearing Committee can hear or determine the protest, charge or other matter, provided, however, that in instances involving GR605 and GR611.2(i) or (ii) where the United States
Olympic Committee Constitution, Art. IV, Sec. 4 (c)(6) applies, a hearing by the Hearing Committee shall be held on notice before any suspension is imposed.

[Black Market Radio]

I want to make you a cake, I will use all the finest and most expensive ingredients. But... I will add just the teeniest, tiniest amount of dog poop. I will mix it in reeeeeaaaalllly well and you won't even be able to taste it. Want a piece?

[Ride'emCO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SiriusB:
I want to make you a cake, I will use all the finest and most expensive ingredients. But... I will add just the teeniest, tiniest amount of dog poop. I will mix it in reeeeeaaaalllly well and you won't even be able to taste it. Want a piece? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bravo! &lt;applause&gt;

[Snowbird]

Well thank you, I was beginning to think I was the only one who objected to having murderers whether convicted or not in my recreational world with my children. I sure wouldn't like having child molesters or other felons there either what a great image for those National Corporate Sponsors.

Have any of you who are so defensive of Joe Plemmons and his rights even think he is a great guy thought at all about the "Civil Rights" of Helen Brach? Did she get a second chance? Did her family do anything to deserve not knowing whatever happened to her? But you think it's OK! because its 30 years later WOW!

If I follow your logic on that basis how many killers and molesters should be let out of jail right now? I mean they must have been pretty dumb to get caught. Diminished capacity should cover their defense.

Rehabilitation is a nice thought and hope.

[Sswor]

This is insanity!!! People can change??? Let's be sensitive to those who know Joe???

Craziness. It speaks volumes about a person's character to say that he once pointed a gun at a horse blanket within which he knew lay a woman beaten to the point to where she was not trying to escape (presumably) and pull the trigger with the intention of killing her. There is a line that separtes those who would have done this and those who wouldn't. Insanity.

Are we so hard up for horse trainers that a confessed murder really looks like an attractive option? I think not. There are too many professionals in this business with GOOD, honestly gained reputations to be messing around with such scum.

Seriously people, what are we thinking about here???

[Midge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by melliebay:
We are talking about a murder that happened nearly 30 years ago. In the 30 years since then, Joe has had a solid gold reputation. (As much as any horse person can, anyway) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the most amazing thing I have ever heard. HE KILLED SOMEONE!!!!! There is a reasin there is no statute of limitations on MURDER!!!!

As far as a solid gold reputation for the last 30 years, you're kidding, right??? Geesh!!! Ask Terry Brown about his solid gold reputation.

[lute]

A literary quiz:
What fictional family created by an American author could well have been inspired by the Jaynes?

Hint: Author was a foxhunter.

Extra credit: Describe the principal parallels and match the characters.

[Snowbird]

The Killer Walks with Us!

A psychodrama about a killer who was so smug and proud of himself that he wasn't caught; he had to leave a trail and taunt the police. Then he thinks because of double jeopardy he can confess and get away a second time.

[khobstetter]

OH MY!!!!

Mellie and the rest of you "supporters". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

If THAT had been YOUR MOTHER wrapped in that blanket, beaten almost to death BY HER FRIENDS..and SOMEONE pulled the trigger BY CHOICE and then dumped YOUR MOTHER in a blast furnace....I doubt that you would find it so amazingly "small" an action.

All I can think of is...

My mother bought great investment horses, she paid good money for them, she had a trainer she trusted, she knew people in the horse industry. Then she found out we had been lied to by one of the sellers...

GOD THANK YOU THAT JOE PLEMMONS was in another state...THAT COULD HAVE BEEN MY MOTHER IN THAT BLANKET. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

What in the Good Lord's name can make you guys for even ONE minute say it was OK...

IF he was truly an up right guy ..he would have found a way to tell the truth..

OH I FORGOT...HE DID FIND A WAY. He made a plea bargin 30 years later to go free so HE wouldn't suffer!!!!

GEEZ...some of you guys amaze me....he told the truth cause he can now get away with it and some people are saying it was "OK, HE HAS CHANGED"!!

Same stripes.....what changes was he got a plea bargin and he gets away scott free....his concience NEVER did change.

AND NOW HE WALKS AMONG US......Lock your mothers in the back room..they can be next if they piss off his friends..and THEY won't have to look far for someone to pull the trigger...JOE IS HERE!!

Good Lord forgive my tirade....I value LIFE...ALL LIFE..and anyone who takes one ONLY to protect their own as^*(&^ belongs in a nice "chamber" somewhere.

HE KILLED..HE TOOK A HUMAN LIFE..and a HELPLESS one at that!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[melliebay Aefvue Farms Chesapeake Bay]

Let me repeat, as I have said all along.....murder is not okay. The guilty party should pay.

My point was that the person who shot Helen Brach all those years ago is very well a changed person now. He still deserves to be tried in our justice system for that crime. I have never said he should get off scot-free. I have simply provided a character reference of the Joe Plemmons that I know and have known for years. I have never defended him against the murder. I do not believe he is currently dangerous and "at large", just waiting to kill someone.

If you read all the information in this case, you would know that he shot her to avoid being placed in the trunk and sent to the incinerator with her. He didn't do it of his own free will, he was under duress. I would like to think that all of you who are so quick to judge people you don't even know would have stood up for her and ended up in the trunk, but the truth is none of us know what we would do in that kind of situation.

I am not excusing the crime. I am only saying that the man I know has been a good person to me for many years. That is all I have attempted to say all along, and yet everyone wants to jump down my throat for "defending" him.

[xegeba]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">He made a plea bargin 30 years later to go free so HE wouldn't suffer!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What does this guy know that warrants a plea bargain 30 yrs. later? I would imagine that there are more than a few people not sleeping so well at night.

[Snowbird]

A fox does not become a sheep even if he wears a sheeps coat.

[xegeba]

True, Snowbird... but I still want to know what this particular fox is willing to cough up... He confesses that he murders HELEN BRACH and is granted immunity? I'm thinking that USEF may be busy in the banning dept. in the near future.

[khobstetter]

BUT HE NEVER CAME FORWARD !!!! He savored the death all these years, knowing that millions of people were really concerned about what happened.

He could have come forward many years ago...OF COURSE he may have had to go into the protective witness program and start another life.....

OH...I forgot...he would have had to give up his life as he knew it to go tell the truth...BUT HE COULD HAVE !!! It was OK to take Brachs life but not OK for HIM to make sacrifices and be an up front guy. EWE!!!!!!!

Instead he lives among us and walks our show grounds...

As far as being a "changed man"...hahahaha that is almost funny. He was such a slick character even then and all these years NO ONE KNEW...so don't tell me he "changed"..he acted the very same way then as now AND THAT'S HOW HE GOT AWAY WITH IT.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If you read all the information in this case, you would know that he shot her to avoid being placed in the trunk and sent to the incinerator with her. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Some of us HAVE read every SAD SAD SAD word of the news!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I would like to think that all of you who are so quick to judge people you don't even know would have stood up for her and ended up in the trunk, but the truth is none of us know what we would do in that kind of situation.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE> THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT THEY PROBABLY WOULD HAVE MADE SOME OF US PULL THE TRIGGER ......BUT I venture to say that ALL of us on the BB would have gone straight to the cops at the first opportunity and told!!

AND you have no idea what he has done with the last 30 years..he was such a "good guy" no one knew he killed her in the first place till he confessed UNDER IMMUNITY...

SOOOOOOOOOOOO what other dirty little secrets does he have???

[khobstetter]

xegeba...your missing thepoint of his confession...

He told the feds he had information as to the facts of the murder BUT he HAD to have immunity.

They said OK, never believing they had the real murderer right there.

He signed the papers and then said "I did it, haha you can't touch me".

His "secrets" were that HE was the murderer....NOW HE WALKS A FREE MAN!!!!

[xegeba]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">SOOOOOOOOOOOO what other dirty little secrets does he have??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Apparently a multitude...

[xegeba]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">He told the feds he had information as to the facts of the murder BUT he HAD to have immunity.

They said OK, never believing they had the real murderer right there.

He signed the papers and then said "I did it, haha you can't touch me".

His "secrets" were that HE was the murderer....NOW HE WALKS A FREE MAN </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now matter what I think about the Federal Gov't... I do not think they are that stupid.

[khobstetter]

Do you think he would be walking around the Florida show grounds if he had more RAT information to give...??

They woudl have him under lock and key cause he would have to testify at some point...obviously he does not have to testify to anything...he signed papers letting him off and it was HIM he ratted on!!

[xegeba]

So ... after all these years... why turn himself in? What was in it for him? Did he suddenly need to make peace with his victim and/or God? why request immunity? And what was the motivation for the Fed's To grant immunity? Just so they could say they solved the case? Was /is there not bigger fish to fry out there? What precipatated his confession? If you are minding your own beeswax in Florida and getting paid for it... life must be pretty good. Does he have terminal cancer? Someone threaten to feed his kids to an alligator? I don't get it...

[radar]

Just remember that it may be safer for Joe to claim he did it himself, given immunity, than to implicate certain living people who might find him or have him found wherever he goes... witness protection or not.... I'm not defending Joe, just setting forth an interesting and probable possibility... It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, in any case given the ethical and moral implications of the whole situation.

[Weatherford]

meliebay - you may believe what you write, but I guarentee you, there are people (myself included) on this boards who also have first hand dealings with Plemmons that were far less than stellar! He is, without a doubt, very charming... however, charm is only on the surface... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Now, I must admit, I am confused here - he was granted immunity for the state's evidence confessing he did way back. Even then, in Hot Blood, he was considered a "minor" player. I didn't see that he had been granted new immunity for the murder confession - did I miss something? We had a legal opinion (pages and pages ago) that the first immunity would probably not cover him for the "confession".

Guess I should go find the link again! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[BaliBandido]

Just jumping in here for a moment-

After doing a google search I found some interesting information that further details Plemmons character. As if his 'involvment' in this recent turn of events was not enough.

According to the findlaw/kenlaw websites that have appeal transcripts of the 1995 trial of Ken Hansen who was convicted of murdering 3 boys (ages 11,13,13) Plemmons was told on separate occasions by Hansen that he killed the boys in 1955.

From kenlaw.com-
n. Joe Plemmons
Joe Plemmons, who was 47 years of age at the time of trial (H163), met
the defendant in 1970 or 1971 at a horse show. (Id.) Plemmons had been convicted
of larceny (H198), admitted that he had used false names to steal (H204-
05), admitted that he had stolen $100,000 in California (H205), and revealed
that he had secured a sentence reduction by cooperating in this case. (H196.)
On direct examination, Plemmons was asked about conversations he had
had with the defendant(Ken Hansen) about a man named Wally Holly. (H169-171.) In
response to a question from the prosecution, Plemmons stated that "Wally Holly
told me that Ken Hansen had killed three boys."
Plemmons also related to the jury a conversation he had had with the
defendant in 1972, and over objection, testified that the defendant had stated that
his brother Curt (Hansen) "held those boys over his head like a club." (H176.)
Plemmons was also permitted to testify over defense objection that in
April of 1976, the defendant had told him that "it was either the boys or him
that in 1955 to be gay was unacceptable, that society wouldn’t take it." (H184.)
According to Plemmons, defendant made this last statement after Plemmons had
stated to defendant that "you said you killed three boys." (H184.)
Plemmons also testified about a conversation he had had with the defendant
in 1988, when in response to criticism from defendant, Plemmons had
stated "Don’t be ragging at em. My life has been bad but you killed three
kids." (H186.) Plemmons made several references to George Jayne, and
defendant’s alleged involvement in the murder of George Jayne (H186-87) and
the trial judge instructed the jury to disregard Plemmons’ testimony about what
he had told the defendant. (H192.)
According to Plemmons, during a 1988 conversation with defendant, he
had asked defendant if he was worried about being caught by the police for the
murder of the boys. (H194.) Plemmons claimed that defendant’s response was
that "he was scared that something would pop up and that he would be caught."

From caselaw-
Joe Plemmons testified that he began leasing part of the Sky High Stables from the defendant in 1972 and became good friends with him during that time. Plemmons stated that, in May 1972, the defendant told him that his brother, Curt, "held those boys over his head like a club." According to Plemmons, sometime in 1976, he and the defendant had a conversation during which the defendant commented that "it was either those boys or him" because "in 1955 you couldn't be gay." On another occasion in 1988, Plemmons brought up the subject of the three murders and the defendant confided that he worried about being caught some day. Plemmons admitted that he had been convicted of fraud and has been known by several aliases. Plemmons also admitted that he came forward with the information relating to the defendant in November 1994 because he believed that the defendant had lied to him about "what happened to his wife Beverly." Following Plemmons' testimony, the State rested

So by his own testimony Plemmons was told by Ken Hansen about the murder of these three young boys in 1972, 1976 and 1988. Yet he said nothing and continued to associate with someone he beleived to have done this crime, as well as the many other sordid doings involving young boys that was admitted to by Hansen. I guess when you yourself have many things in your life that need to be hidden it is only safe to associate with others like you so that you can ensure one anothers silence by having information on them as well.

melliebay, you posted:
"Let me repeat, as I have said all along.....murder is not okay. The guilty party should pay.

My point was that the person who shot Helen Brach all those years ago is very well a changed person now. He still deserves to be tried in our justice system for that crime. I have never said he should get off scot-free. I have simply provided a character reference of the Joe Plemmons that I know and have known for years. I have never defended him against the murder. I do not believe he is currently dangerous and "at large", just waiting to kill someone.

If you read all the information in this case, you would know that he shot her to avoid being placed in the trunk and sent to the incinerator with her. He didn't do it of his own free will, he was under duress. I would like to think that all of you who are so quick to judge people you don't even know would have stood up for her and ended up in the trunk, but the truth is none of us know what we would do in that kind of situation.

I am not excusing the crime. I am only saying that the man I know has been a good person to me for many years."

I am not in anyway jumping down your throat as I don't beleive you are defending him just stating what your experinces have been with him. Consider yourself a lucky one as many were not treated that way. You say he has been a good person to you for many years, I wonder if that includes the years he knowingly hid the identity of a murderer. How would you know?
However knowing what he has testified to does it make you wonder? Does it creep you out to know you have known him for years and yet this is what lurks behind his smile? It creeps me out and I don't even know him. If he hid this, what else does he hide? Can you ever know someone like this, or do you know what they want you to know?

I think his character speaks for itself in the documented record of his testimony. As for doing something of his own free will, you have to have a certain reputation to get in the position he found himself in. Most law abiding upstanding folk don't get solicited for murder or find themself in the presence of associates that place gun in his hand etc etc. Maybe he did feel that he had to do it or else, but he had been going down that road for many miles he should not have been surprised that it resulted in that destination.

This man never came forward to give the parents any peace when Hansen told him. He just lived with it. Did he ever feel a pang of guilt or concience when he saw other boys about the same age as those killed? Or did he just file it away as useful information to be pulled out when he needed a trump card? Does he have kids? Did he ever put himself in the place of the familys of those boys?

This man killed a woman, concealed the knowledge of another murderer and did many other bad, bad things yet there are those who still stand by him? WHy? As for is he is a threat now? Absolutely. He has shown how capable he is of making bad choices and then hiding them over and over and over. This is not a one time event.

While I do think that there are those who make a mistake or mistakes and learn from them, accept punishment and go on to be good people this man is not one of those people. I also try to judge people on my dealings with them to a certain extent, however if I were aware of someone who has admitted to what he has admitted to (and is probably guilty of so much that he has not admitted to)I could not justify any association with that person. That is just my feeling.

To all those that think of him (and others in this whole mess)as people who made mistakes but are good now, just remember that they got away with this behavior for many years because they are good liars, good con men and good manipulators. They fooled so many for so long, don't be naive enough to think that you can't or aren't one of those fooled.

[melliebay Aefvue Farms Chesapeake Bay]

I think Radar is closer to the truth than anyone here.

I have never made apologies for some of the things Joe has done, I as well as most of you have heard a lot of things about him, some true, some not. All along I have just stated that I know him and genuinely like him because he has shown MUCH MUCH kindness and generosity toward me and my family knowing there was no return in it for him.

I'm not inside Joe's head, I don't know if he is indeed changed. People can change, it doesn't always mean they do. I hope he has, and I wish the best for him, but I also realize that people need to be accountable for their actions.

There is no "new" immunity. He is covered under the old immunity and so far I haven't gotten an answer from any of the lawyers on here as to whether that may cover his confession or not.

Exactly, WHY would he come forward now? He has nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing so. That should tell you all something. Maybe this has been weighing too heavily on him and he has decided it's time to come clean. He could have taken this to the grave, and how about we are thankful that this murder can be solved and the people who knew and loved Helen have some closure?

[Silk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A few years ago during a different winter in Ocala I was getting instruction from a former member of the USET (member in the 60's) who could not come to the show and watch me or train me because he was banned. Though from time to time he did put on a disguise and show up anyway. Sounds crazy right? I learned a lot from him, and one of the big things I learned is that he is one of those people who animals and children alike gravitate towards. . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well...I would be so proud to posture this information...NOT!

[KMZ]

Spots on a dog do not change. A person like this just changes the scenary the script stays the same. For those of you who think he's a changed person, you could not possibly say that if you knew him all that well. A con man will be what ever you want him to be. You say he's changed, read the book, talk to people who knew him as "Mark" when his then girlfriend "Bobbie" who by the way went to jail, not Joe...hmmm wonder what plea he copped then.

[Ski Bum]

i still want to know the answer to the literary question that was posted on page 8! i'm a self proclaimed nerd who loves to read, so i really want to find out what book this is!

Kristin

[Policy of Truth]

Wow. We are truly an f'ed up society when we begin to justify murder. ESPECIALLY just because we like the way a man trains us and our horses http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif (And if you are a Joe supporter you are supporting him not getting any consequences, you are who I am speaking to).

Do any of you people who "stand behind Joe" think it would have been ok had he killed your HORSE? No? Oh...so it's ok to kill PEOPLE but not animals? Who taught you YOUR morals? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Since when have we given ourselves as a society permission to have a compartmentalized view of murder? How many lawyers has it taken to completely screw your heads on backwards to the point where you can be THIS deceived???!! JOE MURDERED AN OLD LADY!!! And you want to back him up?

If this man truly has changed and has developed the kind of character "those who know him" seem to beleive he has, then he ought to be man enough to take the consequences for his actions and not hide behind immunity. THAT would show character.

[justjilli]

For those of you who are perfect,,you may never understand...but for some of us out there,,we look back on our lives and wonder, WHAT WAS I THINKING!! i guess i wasnt http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif i have not spoken to joe about this matter,,im only speaking of my own experience of life..(not that i ever even thought of killing someone) my spots have changed...as of many upstanding trainers out there. i could go on for days naming trainers who have changed..GOOD FOR THEM http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Policy of Truth]

I NEVER SAID OR SUGGESTED I WAS PERFECT! I don't have to be IMPERFECT OR PERFECT to know MURDER IS WRONG!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[eventer girl]

I'm sure that Helen Brach would be very forgiving of Joe's supposed "What was I thinking", oops i made a mistake and i'm a new person feelings!

Granted she would have passed on by now, but would you feel the same way if it was a loved one of yours he killed??

[scrubs]

These are the scum that ol' Joe protects - what a nice helpful guy.

http://www.ipsn.org/news/blood_feud_by_gene_oshea.htm

[justjilli]

Let me be more clear,,im not defending ANYONE involved in the brach murder case,,im defending all the other trainers who have changed there lives for the better..

[Ski Bum]

this is chicago, mob capital of the world. not that this excuses anything, it certainly does not. but everything in chicago is linked and intertwined to mob conections. The police, the politicians, the garbage companies, why not the horse people as well? i'm not deffending anyone or any of these actions, i think these are horrible people and deserve what God deems apropreiate punishment for them all. All I'm saying is that Chicago has never been known for it's good ethics and morals in the business world or otherwise.
Kristin

[khobstetter]

justjilli..<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> my spots have changed...as of many upstanding trainers out there. i could go on for days naming trainers who have changed..GOOD FOR THEM
</div></BLOCKQUOTE> SOOOOOOOOOOO since this topic has turned to MURDER, and you are defending one...could you list the names of those horse trainers who have KILLED and then changed??? I for one would like to know just who is a murderer that I MAY rub elbow with and not know it!!

Melli..<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Maybe this has been weighing too heavily on him and he has decided it's time to come clean </div></BLOCKQUOTE> SOOOOOOOOOOOOO it weighs on him so much that he decided to "come clean"..??? He is waltzing around OUR MOTHERS AND CHILDREN at Florida, pretending he is an upright HONEST citizen, he "comes clean" and gets to the horse show party that night???

WOW..HE REALLY DOES SOUND REPENTENT!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif SOOOOOOOOOOOOO did he confess before or after the Green Conformation Hunters..or was it just after the Level 6's. I am sure he was not repentent enough to be a little humble about it or he would have NOT been watlzing around Florida so arogant.

There are people at those shows who witnessed his behavior and it was FAR FAR FAR FAR from ANY person who just confessed to MURDER and felt bad about it. Quite the opposite..according to witnesses there he was cocky and arrogant!

One would think that one's behavior would reflect saddness, quilt and humbleness since HE KILLED SOMEONE.

Holy smoly some of us have become complaciant about HUMAN LIFE!!! She could have been YOUR mother... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif or worse..MINE!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[justjilli]

I guess i went off course,, my point was,, people do change..

[justjilli]

and i wasnt talking about trainers who have shot/murdered anyone,, just trainers who would not think about doing the tings they have done in there younger years...

[justjilli]

THINGS and THEIR

[Erin]

Kathy, WHERE are you getting the info that he has immunity or whatever?

I haven't been reading up on this aspect of the case, but please, let's all be careful about what we state as FACT.

[Cudakid]

Originally posted by khobstetter:

I am sure he was not repentent enough to be a little humble about it or he would have NOT been watlzing around Florida so arogant.

There are people at those shows who witnessed his behavior and it was FAR FAR FAR FAR from ANY person who just confessed to MURDER and felt bad about it. Quite the opposite..according to witnesses there he was cocky and arrogant!
_______________________________________________

Thank you, Knobstetter for pointing out the obvious!!!

However, knowing him, it is typical Plemmons behavior whether the year 2005 or 1975. He is a convicted felon (fact) and professional con man (fact as well as self-admitted) continuing to find people with which to do business. NOW he is a self-confessed murderer that appears to enjoy the added attention.

How can ANYONE make excuses for a person like Plemmons? Why do his friends, clients, and business associates stand by him hiding behind "well, he's always been good to me"?
A changed men? Please, anyone honest with themselves knows better.

Why, a week after Plemmons tells "the truth", does he have even one client remaining?

It will be interesting to see if and when he is arrested......

[Duffy]

Makes me sick.

[Tiramit]

I wonder how much Helen Brach has changed in the last 30 years? Is SHE a different person now? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Snowbird]

A con man is a con man and whoever thinks he's changed as been conned by Mr.Slick ConMan. In stead of sympathy for the killer how about the civil rights of the murdered?

Where was her second chance? What did Helen Brach do to deserve this? She could be anyone of us who decided to call the cops when we knew of a crime. They the criminals count on us seeing that he skates free to convince anyone else from being a whistle blower.

It says the world won't care if you disappear! This is an anti-social behavior and his recent behavior proves that he feels he has outsmarted everyone. Look who's out of jail and who's in jail. Who's going to get out of jail because of this information?

The sociopath thrives on the attention they receive and for the slickness of their deceit. Yes! who ever condones that behavior from that person whether it is 30 years ago or yesterday is an accomplice to the crime.

[JulieMontgomery]

"Si, as he was known, wore a 16-carat diamond pinky ring and had a 1907 $20 gold piece fashioned into a belt buckle. He made a hobby of collecting $1,000 bills, which he placed in his money belt. At any given time he carried up to $10,000 in cash—for making bail, some said. He adorned his cars—usually the latest model Cadillac—with steer horns affixed to the grille."

Oh dear God ....... diamond pinky rings? Steer horns on a Cadillac? The sheer vulgarity of all this is staggering! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif What a sight he must have been in real life .....

[xegeba]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">These are the scum that ol' Joe protects - what a nice helpful guy.

http://www.ipsn.org/news/blood_feud_by_gene_oshea.htm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks scrubs for the link. Quite a few murder victims associated with this crowd.

[Cudakid]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Snowbird:
A con man is a con man and whoever thinks he's changed as been conned by Mr.Slick ConMan.

The sociopath thrives on the attention they receive and for the slickness of their deceit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bravo! Well stated, Snowbird.

[khobstetter]

If you take the time to READ the entire link you could recognize names.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[hifi]

Boy, all I have to say is....I am really sorry for Helen, those three boys, George and anyone who came in contact with Si......What a mess, I can hardly believe all of that to be true....I am from a very sheltered upbringing....Very sad http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[hifi]

Oh and I feel sorry for all the killed horses too

[Policy of Truth]

Erin, I beleive the links I've read regarding the recent events involving Plemmons states that he is under "immunity". That's how I undertood the interview as well as newspaper reports.

[tiger2]

Well, I personally have to take exception to the statement that Plemmons has "been clean for 30 years". My family fell victim to one of Plemmons schemes..and not for a small sum of money. He essentialy was part of our family for 2 years. None of us, not me, my family or my best friend (who he spent every day with) had ANY clue what he was up to. That is, until he left in the night with a trail of lies and fraud schemes behind him. HE IS GOOD AT THIS! That's why you like him Millie.

He, and his lovely partner Donna Smith, who now teaches small children at a barn in Atlanta by the way, then set off for California to set up the same fraud. That's when the FBI caught up with him and cut a deal for his testimony in the Brach murder (oh yeah, he seems to have left out a few details). That was in 1983 and 1986, approximately. My math may not be the best, but that's less than 30 years!

I am all for rehabilatation/forgiveness, etc. Here's a good example of the repentance Plemmons has shown. I ran in to him at a local horseshow about 6 years ago. When he saw me, he walked up with a big grin and a hello. When I was not cordial, he told me to "f" off. This from a person who swindled a large sum of money from us. Not too much remorse here.

I think sociopath is a very apt descirption. Why does he come forward about the murder now? One word...Attention.

He will continue to operate as he always has until people in the industry become wise enough to see beond the smile and the poor me stories. I certainly hope the latest revelations will help.

[Snowbird]

That would be criminal immunity. I would suspect her family could sue under the Civil Laws for "Wrongful Death". Unfortunately by waiting this long Mr. Plemmons is apparently safe because they too have passed.

However, the original issue was not a maudlin or voyeur perspective it was whether or not the USEF could suspend such a person in the "Best Interests of the Sport and the Federation" under it's own Rules based on his own confession.

And could they be motivated to take the smile off his face? and put it on ours. Will the USEF step up to the plate?

[justjilli]

Tiramit--that was a good one http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[keke414]

I think "immunity" means just that - immunity from criminal prosecution. However, I don't think they can grant immunity from a civil suit. But Helen's brother, who I think was her estate representative, has died and her estate is almost certainly closed now. I'm not sure who else would have standing to bring the suit- I don't know what Illinois law is on this, though.

[JulieMontgomery]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">He, and his lovely partner Donna Smith, who now teaches small children at a barn in Atlanta by the way </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's the link to where Ms. Smith is hanging her hat these days .... http://www.chastainhorsepark.org/home.htm. Ah, the irony of it all .... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Erin]

Yes, I know what immunity means, but I swear I read in one of the articles that they were weighing charges against him... ugh, I guess I'll have to go plow through them all to straighten this stuff out.

I would find it highly, highly unlikely that any plea agreement he made before they knew about his involvement in the murder would give him "immunity" but hey, I could be wrong...

[Jakeable]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cudakid:

Why, a week after Plemmons tells "the truth", does he have even one client remaining?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I'd like to know too. Rumours that your trainer did something horrible are bad enough, but to know that they actually confessed to something like murder? I wouldn't be waiting around to find out the outcome of that... See ya! The thought of it just creeps me right out.

[tiger2]

I know! Think about how much time you spend, and trust you place, with a trainer. What would you chat about over dinner....gee were there any other murders you knew about/commited...to say nothing of letting your children be around someone with morals like that!

[tiger2]

By the way, I don't know too much about Plemmon's immunity deal. I do know he agreed to testify and ended up serving a few years in a CA prison. In exchange, the charges against Ms. Smith for back fraud were dropped. I look forward to hearing what your research brings.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin:
Yes, I know what immunity means, but I swear I read in one of the articles that they were weighing charges against him... ugh, I guess I'll have to go plow through them all to straighten this stuff out.

I would find it highly, highly unlikely that any plea agreement he made before they knew about his involvement in the murder would give him "immunity" but hey, I could be wrong... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea, if he basically lied (omitted the full details of his involvement) in his original testimony, then it would seem that he perjured himself and the deal could be considered null and void. The only "loophole" I can think of is if the statute of limitations on perjury has expired, and therefore he cannot have his immunity overturned because he cannot be prosecuted for perjury? But I am not a lawyer, I only play one on the BB...

As for any past and future BBers who are so disconnected from reality as to offer up (as if it were a mitigating factor)... "but he is so good with my horse/dog/kid/checkbook..." well all I have to say to that is, "Yes, and Michael Jackson's home looks like a lot of fun for little boys. Wanna send YOUR kid over for the weekend?" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[HHG-N]

DMK-you are too funny!

We had a trainer in this area who did things like say he had cancer and let a horse show organization throw a benefit for him. He took the money and split. Then moved just an hour away and everyone knew his reputation. Yet, most people thought he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. This is the kind of trainer who gets great customers, unfortunately. Sometimes I think you have to be a slime bucket to make people respect you...

[sleepdeprived]

Well I am truly nauseous. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

The reason -- IMHO -- he didn't tell about the boys' murders he knew about for decades until X date is IT WAS AMMUNITION to trade when he got busted for something ELSE by the Feds. And the reason he's confessed now to the Brach murder, IMO is that they got him on YET SOMETHING ELSE so he played his ultimate TRUMP card. And I know this because I watch television!!!!http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif It's a game and one a narcissist and sociopath like Plemmons just LOVES to play because they are so very good at it. It buys them a get out of jail for free pass! "Ghosts" made him confess my ass!http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Those of you who defend good ol' Trainer Joe IMO, are displaying a few narcissistic tendencies as well. 'Not good ol' Joe!' 'Why, he's my good friend and if he did it he is truly sorry, he told me so himself'. Of course, *you* could never be a sucker.http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Honest to god. WAKE UP, your mentor is a Murderer and it wasn't just a little one for chissakes, but the big Kahuna Candy Heiress Murder. He's Tony Soprano!http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif A man like that has no conscience, or *soul*. He does not care about YOU, your kids, your HORSES!!!, just himself. He took a gun, pointed it at a mortally beaten old lady moaning in pain, lying helpless in the trunk of a car wrapped in a blood-stained horse blanket, and ... he blew her away. Visualize THAT the next time you go to the barn.

Narcissists take pleasure in fooling people, especially the vulnerable and gullible and am guessing, impressionable young women who look up to them. They FEED off it. And guess what, you're their supper and that's likely all you are to them. So please, remove that feeding tube!

[khobstetter]

HEY QUEASY...

Tell us how you REALLY feel!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I agree....oh so sadly YOU ARE RIGHT!!

[easyrider]

I really thought I was too old to be shocked. Guess I was wrong. I'm not shocked that there are psychopaths walking among us, but I am shocked that anyone could find out that someone they know was a murderer and have any response other than horror.

I agree completely with queasy as to the reason why this confession and why now. And I agree that it is time for anyone who thinks this is something to be forgotten, to visualize what actually happened. As so many others have said, what if it was your mother? Hey, forget that, what if it were you?

[Cindeye]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by melliebay:
I can certainly sympathize with you, Cindeye, I also thought many of these "stories" were false. As I said, I have known Joe for about 6 years now, and he has been wonderful to me the whole time. Gave me horses to ride, fed me, gave me a ride home from Ocala one year, etc etc. He even gave my brother a job and at the time my brother didn't know saddle soap from Saddl-Tite. (Beacuse of this there is a humorous story that embarasses my brother). My ex-fiance also hauled his horses to and from Mississppi a couple years ago, and Joe treated him like gold. None of this excuses his behavior all those years ago in any way, but these are just examples of why so many of the "key players" in the horse killings are accepted into horse shows with open arms. Unless you were there, so much of it seems like rumor and unbelievable and the people involved are many times what you and I would consider "good people" if we didn't know their history. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummmmm. HUH? I think you missed my point. When I was 15 years old, I was naive enough to think that all people were innocent until proven guilty. Now I'm old enough to know that only some of the people are...and that where there are rumors, some version of the truth usually exists. I don't care how "nice" someone is or how sorry they seem for past acts...a tiger is a tiger is a tiger...when given the chance or when hungry, they'll kill & eat again.

[JustJump]

There are so many sleazeies in the horse world that people still do business with (if it's in the interest of #1, it will get done, one way or another, believe me) it's no surprise that it's difficult for some to get out the pencil and draw a line...

Now...I know MOST everyone has screen names and all, but does the seriousness of the subject matter being discussed, and the fact that the perpetrators are "out there" make anyone even a little bit nervous?

I mean the history here is truly intimidating, even if half the cast (but not all) are apparently dead...has so much time passed that it's now safe to assume that all of it can be discussed without fear of undue consequenses?

Don't get me wrong, if it's true, that would be a GREAT thing...but are we there yet? It would be wonderful to think so, and I'd like to believe that it would be harder these days to find someone nasty enough to apply for the job of "hit man" to do something rotten in retaliation (not necessarily murder, mind you). Just wondering--again, I think it'a a wonderful thing to think that some of these creeps are finally being flushed out of the bushes, into the open where they can no longer blend in with the crowd.

And on the subject of that line, where does one draw it? Where should it be placed on EITHER side of the right/wrong divide? Why does it take MURDER or before we see any outrage? There is plenty that goes on every day in this business that should certainly give potential or current associates (pros and/or clients) sufficient reason to hesitate--am I wrong??

[justjilli]

ok ok ok---well i still think people can change,,you see,, you just changed my mind on the whole matter. i have ALWAYS been a poor judge of character,,and once again im right about my self.once in high school- i had a small crush(he never knew)on a guy that ended up raping and burning down an ole ladys house! btw that guy fooled everyone around me as well.

[Policy of Truth]

justjilli, you are a typical young person who wants to see everyone as good....I was like that as well in my younger years...until my eyes were opened and I realized that I agreed more with the author of "Lord of the Flies" than I did with the kumbya kinds of theorists on human nature.

I'm sorry we had to be so harsh about the reality of what this man has done. I know what it's like to have a hero fall before my eyes...most of us do.

[sleepdeprived]

OMG Justjump! Maybe you have a point ... I just got a hangup call from 847 area code and I know no one there!!! I'm sceert! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Giddy-up]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JulieMontgomery:
"Si, as he was known, wore a 16-carat diamond pinky ring and had a 1907 $20 gold piece fashioned into a belt buckle. He made a hobby of collecting $1,000 bills, which he placed in his money belt. At any given time he carried up to $10,000 in cash—for making bail, some said. He adorned his cars—usually the latest model Cadillac—with steer horns affixed to the grille."

Oh dear God ....... diamond pinky rings? Steer horns on a Cadillac? The sheer vulgarity of all this is staggering! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif What a sight he must have been in real life ..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I met him at a show once. Albeit I was about 8 years old. I was standing by the office trailer at the Danada Horse Show (who remembers those?) & was offering to "hold" people's dogs when they went inside (yea, I was a goofy kid). Along comes this older gentlemen with a small dog which I am holding when my mom eventually finds me. I thought my mom was going to keel over when she realized who's dog I had when Si came walking back over to me. This was probably 1987 so right before he passed & he had struck me as a "grandfathery" type. Little did I know as after he died a whole bunch of newspaper stories came out about the Brach murder & so forth. I quickly became enlightened on the fact that not everybody has good intentions in the horse world.

[Go-Go]

Giddy-up I was at that show, too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Giddy-up]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Go-Go:
Giddy-up I was at that show, too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am glad I am not the only one that remembers. So many people showing now don't remember Chicago horse showing from back in the mid to late '80s & who the players are (or were) anymore. They then get screwed somehow & are like "I can't believe that happened".

[justjilli]

pacificsolo--the probablem is im soooo not young,,LOL im 47 but have always been very imature for my age http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Go-Go]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So many people showing now don't remember Chicago horse showing from back in the mid to late '80s & who the players are (or were) anymore. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, I remember! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'm staying out of this debacle, but I do remember that Danada. Christine Jadwin's fabulous mare Donata was champion in the Large Juniors, which was kind of funny - Donata champ at Danada.

[jilltx]

It's all just nauseating. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Policy of Truth]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Sorry! LOL! Well, beter to learn that lesson about human nature now than later...I really am sorry that it had to happen like this, though http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Sparky]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Go-Go:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So many people showing now don't remember Chicago horse showing from back in the mid to late '80s & who the players are (or were) anymore. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, I remember! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'm staying out of this debacle, but I do remember that Danada. Christine Jadwin's fabulous mare Donata was champion in the Large Juniors, which was kind of funny - Donata champ at Danada. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


This is just weird---I was also at that show! And it was our trainer's daughter's first championship in short stirrup....a nice start in show biz for Emily Williams http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Go-Go]

Sparky was Cody there too? I don't remember THAT well! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Did he still have, oh, shoot what was her name - that awesome junior rider with the Italian last name - Andrea something? riding with him then?

I used to babysit for Emily.

[Merry]

As much as I want to cling to the notion that people can change, yaddayaddayadda, the older I get the more I realize that often times repeated bad behavior is due to a personality flaw or a lack of character. Or a sign of being a sociopath. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I wish that the world of horses wasn't sullied by the same crap that goes on in the "real world." But it seems we have our own cast of maladjusted, self-serving, raunchy actors as well.

However, I can do my duty and neither support nor socialize with someone who's already used up their Free Spin. There are plenty of horse lovers I can spend my time with who haven't killed horses, molested or murdered kids, ripped off their clients with a wink and a nod, or shot a battered old woman who loved horses and had been misled by a man she thought loved her.

[Cudakid]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DMK:

Yea, if he basically lied (omitted the full details of his involvement) in his original testimony, then it would seem that he perjured himself and the deal could be considered null and void. The only "loophole" I can think of is if the statute of limitations on perjury has expired, and therefore he cannot have his immunity overturned because he cannot be prosecuted for perjury? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A professional horseman in Chicago asked a client in his stable that IS a lawyer about Plemmons perjury and the statute of limitations. The answer, unfortunately, is that the statute is up. Want to bet Plemmons knew this?

[sleepdeprived]

Wow, so the statute was up. That must have put the S in his big Smug grin. He knows exactly what he's doing. But why cop to the big Kahuna unless it behooves or benefits him in some way? The US Atty's office busting something else up that he was involved in? They wanted to go after the cop? Another of the thugs? Can't wait for the next installment. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Weatherford]

If they are smart, they will find a way to get him... but, then, smart is not always the right word for the good guys, unfortunately...

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cudakid:
A professional horseman in Chicago asked a client in his stable that IS a lawyer about Plemmons perjury and the statute of limitations. The answer, unfortunately, is that the statute is up. Want to bet Plemmons knew this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this is the case, then one can only hope that as part of the terms of his immunity he ONLY gave up that Richard Bailey "solicited him for murder" (which may have been true insofar that it is part of the story). And since Richard Bailey has not been convicted of murdering Helen Brach (only of "conspiracy to commit murder"), maybe there is still a possibility of convicting Plemmons for doing the deed.

I can only assume he didn't fork over all the details around Brach's death, because surely based on what he is saying now, that would have resulted in a murder conviction in state court for Bailey...

I would personally LOVE it if his defense attorney did correctly advise him about the perjury statute, but convienently omitted the fact that there was another crime that Plemmons could be charged with, because he knew, as is often the case, his client really deserved to not see the light of day...

I can only hope!

[sleepdeprived]

Does anyone know if informants, such as our friend Joe, profit in a significant way financially for ratting and/or confessing? Or is informing more of a barter situation where they say, I'll tell you about this if you let me walk on that or only do X years instead of XX? How can someone who confesses to a murder not be prosecuted unless they've already been tried for it?

[Policy of Truth]

It seems to me that someone on this BB suggested that the "then unknown confessor" was probably hoping to go to prison to avoid something worse? It seems that the person speculated that the killer may feel safer in prison? I dunno....maybe this was a weird dream I had http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Snowbird]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><span class="ev_code_red">GR609 Temporary Suspension.
In connection with any protest, charge, or any other matter which may properly fall within the jurisdiction of the Hearing Committee, and upon a finding that considerations involving the health, safety or welfare of Federation members and/or their horses, or the best interests of horse showing generally, warrant prompt action pending consideration of the matter by the Hearing Committee, the CEO or Executive Director may, by giving written notice of such action, temporarily suspend any person from participating in any manner in
the affairs of the Federation or participating in or attending all Recognized Competitions until the Hearing Committee can hear the protest, charge or other matter and take such further temporary or other disciplinary action as it deems appropriate under these Rules, including temporarily suspending any person from participating in any manner in the affairs of the Federation or participating in or attending all Recognized Competitions, until the Hearing Committee can hear or determine the protest, charge or other matter, provided, however, that in instances involving GR605 and GR611.2(i) or (ii) where the United States
Olympic Committee Constitution, Art. IV, Sec. 4 (c)(6) applies, a hearing by the Hearing Committee shall be held on notice before any suspension is imposed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE></span>

OK! Pine Tree found this Rule.So then how to we get the USEF to be as diligent with murders as they are with us members when it comes to "what is in the best interest of the sport"?

[sleepdeprived]

Jesus Snowbird, can you give us a warning to put on our sunglasses before you blind me
with your post! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

But along those lines, would it make any sense for us COTHers to start a petition to send with a letter or would they just say BFD to that? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

PS Pacific Solo, I had that same dream but wouldn't that make better sense if he was in custody and not out galavanting around at shows. Of course, one can only hope the mob is on the trail ...

PSS and could we post -- I mean sign petition!! - under pseudonyms? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif OK, OK, I think I get why we wouldn't want to do that.

[Snowbird]

Got your attention didn't it? Petitions don't work. A basic letter sent in by members with the USEF # attached for verifcation would work.

The USEF has always thrown out petitions because they can be certified.

Someone with a legal frame of mind needs to post a letter format with the key paragraph and then we need to fax it to the Board. It can be sent to Lori Rawlsd and ask her to send it to the board but somehow those letters don't always get delivered.

[Policy of Truth]

queasy, I beleive we're dealing with a sociopath here LOL! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

He seamed so PROUD of his confession on the interview....I believe his lack of common sense may catch up to him IF there are people who want to "get him". http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Weatherford:
If they are smart, they will find a way to get him... but, then, smart is not always the right word for the good guys, unfortunately... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Are you talking about the "good guys" or the "bad guys" "getting him". Both seem plausible.

[sleepdeprived]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...He seamed so PROUD of his confession on the interview....I believe his lack of common sense may catch up to him IF there are people who want to "get him". http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I gotcha! and yes, got my attention... will keep my glasses by the keyboard from now on. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

But, hey, what about getting up a gang of mental-pausal women. On STEROIDS!!! We could drug him, roll him up in a Baker blanket, throw him in the back of a Hummer and pummel him with a twitch borrowed from a PA vet and then shoot him in the head with some unrefined cobra venom. Would that be justice?!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Black Market Radio]

Did anyone see the movie Jawbreaker? Where she says "I did it, I killed the teen dream. Deal with it." That is what his confession seemed like to me...

[Snowbird]

OH! I like that! The Bible says and "eye for an eye". I volunteer being very post menapausal. I'm sure I can find a nice dirty slimy horse blanket if needed.

Wait a minute though we have to be careful they could consider this a conspiracy to murder. We wouldn't be lucky because we're all too dumb to know how to work the criminal system.

Gee! where's a felon when you need one?

[sleepdeprived]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SiriusB:
Did anyone see the movie Jawbreaker? Where she says "I did it, I killed the teen dream. Deal with it." That is what his confession seemed like to me... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes! funny movie. I still have the image of her in the trunk with the jawbreaker stuck in her throat. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Snowbird:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">GR609 Temporary Suspension.
In connection with any protest, charge, or any other matter which may properly fall within the jurisdiction of the Hearing Committee, . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Snowbird, I'm not sure criminal activity that doesn't involved cruelty to animals, even a crime as heinous as murder, properly falls within the jurisdiction of the Hearing Committee. Can anyone clarify?

It's not like USEF governs anywhere but sanctioned horse shows and it's limited to actions that fall within their bylaws. Banning someone for being charged for a crime is sticky business. Where is the line drawn, misdemeanors? Felonies? etc.

and queasy, I just have to take you to task a little for this comment:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
WAKE UP, your mentor is a Murderer and it wasn't just a little one for chissakes, but the big Kahuna Candy Heiress Murder </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What difference does it make who was murdered? Is there really any such thing as a "little murder?" Yeah, we don't care as much when the bad guys kill each other, but really, does it make it any more right that they did?

[Snowbird]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">upon a finding that considerations involving the health, safety or welfare of Federation members and/or their horses, or the best interests of horse showing generally, warrant prompt action pending consideration of the matter by the Hearing Committee, the CEO or Executive Director may, by giving written notice of such action, temporarily suspend any person from participating in any manner in
the affairs of the Federation or participating in or attending all Recognized Competitions </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is also GR706 which I personally object to but on the other hand in a case like this it warrants the Executive Director filing a chagre against him. If not for the murder for the bad PR to the sport and the fears of those who compete against him as a result of the TV Interview and public admissions of guilt.

Personally, even if he was a nut case this could be used because it doesn't say he's guilty of anything.

[Giddy-up]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Snowbird:
OH! I like that! The Bible says and "eye for an eye". I volunteer being very post menapausal. I'm sure I can find a nice dirty slimy horse blanket if needed.

Wait a minute though we have to be careful they could consider this a conspiracy to murder. We wouldn't be lucky because we're all too dumb to know how to work the criminal system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it would be pre-meditated so no more talking about it...use your inner thoughts to speak with one another.

[sleepdeprived]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What difference does it make who was murdered? Is there really any such thing as a "little murder?" Yeah, we don't care as much when the bad guys kill each other, but really, does it make it any more right that they did? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh Rugbug, I believe we are experiencing a "sarchasm." Truly, I am only in favor of murdering certain horse trainers and child molesters but otherwise do not condone *garden variety* murders. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[justjilli]

they dont think much when Sonny Corinthos, from GENERAL HOSPITAL puts out a hit on the bad guys,,,LOL

[Silk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Actually it would be pre-meditated so no more talking about it...use your inner thoughts to speak with one another. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about pre-medicated?

[Ski Bum]

I asked my mother, who is a lawywe, if immunity covered murder, and she highly doubted it. This is all so confusing. I hope it gets resolved.

[Badger]

One of links mentioned Silas' involvement in a late 70s arson. Does anyone have a link that can explain that and/or other Oconomowoc, WI, area stable arsons of the late 70s?

[OZZ]

WELL.....I am one of the unlucky ones who had the pleasure of riding with Mr. Plemmons. Talk about not wanting your children at a horse show around murderers or standing next to them at the in gate - I was a child who trained with this man for several years. Though, at the time, I was in my early teens, I remeber it like it was yesterday. Fortunately, for me, I rode with him before he went as far as actually killing someone!

Mr. Plemmons was a very charming man - as it turns out he was and IS nothing more then a con-man that later became a cold blooded killer. As a child I was devestated by this and I actually really liked Joe and it never crossed my mind, my parents, his partner or anyone else that knew him that he was not who or what he claimed to be. He was a professional.

I have since grown up and have met many other con men in my life, BUT none have been as good or smooth as Mr. Plemmons. He truly had everyone fooled and to this day, if you are friends with him,training with him, buying horses from him or even sleeping with him - I am here to tell you - HE IS FOOLING YOU TOO & I bet you even think he is charming and believable - let me tell you - HE IS NOT!!!!! He is nothing more then a con-man, thief and murderer. How anyone can say he deserves a "second chance" is beyond my wildest imagination. How he can attend horse shows is also beyond my wildest imagination. How he is not in jail for the rest of his life is beyond my wildest imagination. AND how he got away with MURDER - well I will let you decide that for yourself....

[Seven]

This is interesting:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I am not excusing the crime. I am only saying that the man I know has been a good person to me for many years. That is all I have attempted to say all along, and yet everyone wants to jump down my throat for "defending" him. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I find interesting about it is that no matter which of these (cough,cough) people we're discussing, this is always the justification of those who stand by them. I bet you could copy the same quote from a BW or PV thread. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

In any event, immunity *can* cover murder (for those who are wondering). I have no idea about the actual immunity in this case...not sure it's even public information and am not going to try to find out either way. Still, Sammy ("the Bull") Gravano freely admitted to participating in the murder of 17 individuals and received immunity (as well as a new life) for his testimony against mob boss, John Gotti (and others). Not that he's managed to stay out of trouble....but the level of immunity all depends on how badly the prosecutors want the information.

[Snowbird]

I'm sure his mother loved him too! No one is ever totally malevolent even the devil pretends to be a "good guy" who gives you what you want for a small price "your soul".

[ASClaire]

OZZ- check your PT's....

[Superhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tiger2:
Well, I personally have to take exception to the statement that Plemmons has "been clean for 30 years". My family fell victim to one of Plemmons schemes..and not for a small sum of money. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OZZ:
WELL.....I am one of the unlucky ones who had the pleasure of riding with Mr. Plemmons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Poor Tiger2 and Ozz!!!

Doesn't it anger both of you that Plemmons is still accepted in the horse business and he attends a high profile circuit like WEF where he can find new (wealthly) victims on which to prey?

[OZZ]

Superhorse - I am not sure if you are being serious or a smart ass by the way you presented your question to Tiger and me. I will give you the benefit of the doubt though - YES - it more then angers us seeing this man at any show, or for that matter free in society. Also, he does have other victims....poor Serendipity I would say -he has cast his spell over her. He makes you like him, he makes you believe him, you are drawn to him, you enjoy his company, he helps you.....ALL WHILE HE IS MANIPULATING YOU, LOOKING FOR WAYS TO STAEL YOUR MONEY AND IF YOU ARE REALLY UNLUCKY HE MAY EVEN KILL YOU IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT! Don't let this be you....get far,far away as fast as you can. What you THINK you have with Joe you do not - you only have lies and someone looking out for ONE person - HIMSELF!!! PERIOD.

[Erin]

OZZ, Serendipity was quoting someone else... I am pretty sure she is not in the murder-is-forgiveable camp. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also, you are a new poster, so please take a careful look at our rules. We do not allow allegations of illegal activity UNLESS charges have been filed... even if the person is question has committed OTHER documented illegal acts. I deleted a portion of your first post -- if charges were actually filed in than instance and you can document them, you can post about it; otherwise, you cannot. Sorry.

[Kestrel]

I haven't read the entire thread, so please forgive me in advance if the following have been asked and answered.

Would Helen Brach have been a member of AHSA (I guess that's what it would be then, if it existed)? Is the admitted murder of one member by another be "detrimental to the sport"? Has anyone emailed the President of USEF asking what actions will be taken? Anyone have an email addy for him? Why not try starting with the simplest step first, there may be no need for petitions, etc.

[Weatherford]

Someone who is a member of the Fed should do just what Kestrel is asking. And let us know the response.

JP is very, very charming, believe that! And can be about as nice as anyone on the circuit....and that, to me, is what makes him so incredibly frightening!

[Badger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Weatherford:
JP is very, very charming, believe that! And can be about as nice as anyone on the circuit....and that, to me, is what makes him so incredibly frightening! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is par for the course for a conman. Con is short for "confidence" and a successful conman has the charm and social skills to gain the confidence of the people around him. Friendships are cultivated, guards are dropped, and things can go along peachy-keen for years until such time as the conman decides to play out his game, exploiting the relationship for his personal gain at the victims expense. This man is described in the articles as a self-confessed conman and murderer, anyone who interacts with such a person and feels "he is nice, he is changed, he wouldn't hurt me" is just showing themselves to be duped, to have let down their naive guard and granted CONfidence to the CONman. What follows that confidence can be, and has been, theft and murder. A career conman is a pro at exploiting people's good will. Unless someone is a pro at dealing with career criminals, they are likely to end up on the losing end in such a relationship.