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chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 10:47 AM
It is currently a rule that when coats are waived due to temperature at USEF shows for hunters that a traditional riding shirt with collar must be worn. For various reasons I feel this is a bad call. Currently, jumper riders are permitted to wear solid color polos.
Many of our riders at the shows are young women. Many of them are uncomfortable wearing a thin sweat soaked cotton shirt that often makes them feel that they are an entrant in a wet T shirt contest. Hence they choose to wear a coat. Wearing a polo shirt would take that aspect of discomfort away.
Men do not wear tie tacks or bars in this day and age. We watch as their ties flap in the breeze. The men look like an unmade bed.
I would like to start a petition that when coats are waived, solid color polo shirts may be worn.
Comments?

Janet
Jul. 28, 2010, 10:51 AM
You could start with a comparison to the Eventing and Dressage rules for "attire when coats are waived".

Eventers might be considered "too informal" for Hunters, but Dressage is usually considered MORE formal than Hunters.

2bayboys
Jul. 28, 2010, 11:00 AM
I'm afraid I would feel too dressed down in a polo shirt in a hunter class, although I would feel fine in a collared, button-up dress shirt as opposed to a traditional ratcatcher with choker. I would love for a dress shirt to be an option when jackets are excused.

findeight
Jul. 28, 2010, 11:21 AM
Show management can and has occaisionally waived that rule to allow a polo in the Hunters. They can deal with adverse conditions as needed, especially in the interest of keeping people safe.

I was at a AA some years ago where managment went so far as to ban the jackets when 2 kids whose trainers insisted on the jackets passed out. One in the ring falling off the horse on the closing courtesy circle and one collapsed at the in gate. And, no, no drama or exaggerating, it really happened. They actually allowed polos in Eq as well, although only a few did that....but there were no jackets. Big show too.

Honestly, all for tradition and stuff but some of our traditions actually steer newbies someplace they don't have to dress for a frosty morning chasing hounds when circling a nearly deserted sand ring at 98f actual with heat index at 115 as it was for 3 days of that show I mentioned. We should look at that.

DMK
Jul. 28, 2010, 11:24 AM
I've also been to a show where polos were permitted and coats were banned. Ummm, me being all about comfort (or as comfortable as I could be) wore a polo. Won the classic in it as well. I probably got bonus points for not being an idiot in 103 degree weather. Well, being less of an idiot. I was there, so some idiocy was in play.

RockinHorse
Jul. 28, 2010, 11:34 AM
I have also seen polo's allowed a few times so now I always bring a nice one with me, just in case;)


It is currently a rule that when coats are waived due to temperature at USEF shows for hunters that a traditional riding shirt with collar must be worn. For various reasons I feel this is a bad call. Currently, jumper riders are permitted to wear solid color polos.
Many of our riders at the shows are young women. Many of them are uncomfortable wearing a thin sweat soaked cotton shirt that often makes them feel that they are an entrant in a wet T shirt contest. Hence they choose to wear a coat. Wearing a polo shirt would take that aspect of discomfort away.
Men do not wear tie tacks or bars in this day and age. We watch as their ties flap in the breeze. The men look like an unmade bed.
I would like to start a petition that when coats are waived, solid color polo shirts may be worn.
Comments?

Regarding the bolded part, since the skin tight light colored britches don't bother them, maybe they should invest in a good bra for riding;)

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 11:35 AM
I can assure you that those shows were not in compliance with USEF rules. Lets change the rule if you like this idea.

To the MAX
Jul. 28, 2010, 11:50 AM
I have also seen polo's allowed a few times so now I always bring a nice one with me, just in case;)



Regarding the bolded part, since the skin tight light colored britches don't bother them, maybe they should invest in a good bra for riding;)

Many breeches are not skin tight, especially for showing. They're also usually made of heavier material than your normal schooling breeches and I don't think I've ever seen someone at a show that looked indecent in them. However, I know that MOST of my shirts, when they get wet, are VERY see through. I do wear a good bra, but being that the shirt I'm wearing is now see through, I really don't want to feel as if I'm walking around in only that.
I think it's a great idea! I'm not sure exactly how popular it would be though...us Hunter riders seem to like to stick to tradition. :)

findeight
Jul. 28, 2010, 11:52 AM
I can assure you that those shows were not in compliance with USEF rules. Lets change the rule if you like this idea.

Well, USEF stewards were consulted, the head office was well aware. Actually one show was at KHP right at the head office-the Pres was ringside for a bit. It was no secret, they knew, they actually saw it. No different then allowing raincoats, waiving the no boots on Hunters to allow bell boots in deep slop or even parkas at winter shows in unheated arenas. All of which I have seen-and done.

But you are right there should be some specific language outlining what conditions qualify and what may be waived and what can replace it.

MyGiantPony
Jul. 28, 2010, 11:52 AM
Honestly, all for tradition and stuff but some of our traditions actually steer newbies someplace they don't have to dress for a frosty morning chasing hounds when circling a nearly deserted sand ring at 98f actual with heat index at 115 as it was for 3 days of that show I mentioned. We should look at that.

Trying doing the sidesaddle division in the sweltering heat. :dead:

carasmom
Jul. 28, 2010, 11:58 AM
I was at a local show this past weekend and coats were waived on Saturday and polo's were encouraged in the hunter ring. :). I wore a Dri Fit white polo and even that was soaked by the time I had warmed up and jumped 1 trip. I think the temp. was up around 94 with high humidity.

I could not have imagined putting on a wool jacket and long sleeves. I did wear my jacket and ratcatcher on Sunday when it was slightly cooler but the whole day I was wishing for my polo!

TooManyChickens
Jul. 28, 2010, 11:58 AM
I would 1000% support this. I'm sure many of those riders at OD this past week were young women whose shirts underneath their coats were already soaked, and didn't want to ride around in a sweat stained/soaked shirt. I think there is a difference here between riding in skin tight breeches vs. a shirt that is sticking to 'the two girls' because it's just so incredibly hot out. (And kudos to the OD staff for providing the water/popsicles, etc!) I would happily toss in a few extra polo shirts on the hot days in case the coats were waived, and I'd feel great walking into the ring at an AA show in my nice polo shirt, because I can actually think straight and see in front of me without the sweat dripping down my face because my body is much cooler.

I'd love to see riders embrace this. We need to escape what 'should' be worn just to produce the classic picture, and wear what keeps us comfortable and cool, for our own health, as well as the health of our horses. Everybody wins.
Then we could start a thread on what color polo looks best with various horse colors!

Trixie
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:07 PM
Many breeches are not skin tight, especially for showing. They're also usually made of heavier material than your normal schooling breeches and I don't think I've ever seen someone at a show that looked indecent in them. However, I know that MOST of my shirts, when they get wet, are VERY see through.

They do make show shirts out of a somewhat heavier cotton fabric that does not become see through when wet. Nor do most of the darker shirts - anything that isn't pale pastel. Neither of these choices is terribly hotter than a white cotton shirt - so it's not like your ONLY option is to wear a shirt that shows your bra.

Something like this (http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2377/13082095/23280148/390203103.jpg) or this (http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL936/3762429/21915079/365907703.jpg)does not become see through when wet. Something darker than that won't either. And I've seen some truly inappropriate breeches in the past, FWIW. :winkgrin:

I just can't imagine feeling that a high collared, long sleeve show shirt is somehow less modest than a polo unless one really failed at wearing appropriate undergarments.

I do think we should waive choker collars in the heat, though. For me, it's really not any cooler to wear a polo than to wear a show shirt, but I wouldn't mind the option of wearing the collar unbuttoned. I did exactly that at one 95 degree schooling show, and somehow, nobody died and I didn't get eliminated. :lol:

2bayboys
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:10 PM
I don't really understand the see-through shirt problem, all of my show shirts get darker where they are wet or sweat-stained, perhaps it is because of my choice of colors or fabrics? And if the outline of "the girls" and my sportsbra can be seen through my sweaty sticky shirt, then it's really no different than when I'm jogging and get hot and sweaty; I may look unappealing but it's hardly inappropriately revealing.

I see Trixie beat me to it. What she said.

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:10 PM
Thanks chickens :-) I have also heard from photographers that people will purchase a photo in a polo, wet riding shirt? Not so much.
Really we are talking about July and August in most locales. We are not trying to change tradition, just improving the look and keeping people healthy and comfortable.

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:15 PM
I don't really understand the see-through shirt problem, all of my show shirts get darker where they are wet or sweat-stained, perhaps it is because of my choice of colors or fabrics? And if the outline of "the girls" and my sportsbra can be seen through my sweaty sticky shirt, then it's really no different than when I'm jogging and get hot and sweaty; I may look unappealing but it's hardly inappropriately revealing.

When you are out jogging there is not an audience of hundreds with their eyes on you and a photographer taking photos. Not a good comparison.
I would venture that all who have voiced an opinion about not caring about how they look are not 15 year old girls. I had mothers whining that their daughters refused to ride without a coat due to modesty. ( Yeah, I know they walk around in sport bras with belly button rongs...yeah, yeah, yeah,...) I want to keep them healthy and hydrated.

Go Fish
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:17 PM
It is currently a rule that when coats are waived due to temperature at USEF shows for hunters that a traditional riding shirt with collar must be worn. For various reasons I feel this is a bad call. Currently, jumper riders are permitted to wear solid color polos.
Many of our riders at the shows are young women. Many of them are uncomfortable wearing a thin sweat soaked cotton shirt that often makes them feel that they are an entrant in a wet T shirt contest. Hence they choose to wear a coat. Wearing a polo shirt would take that aspect of discomfort away.

Yeah, like all those young women wandering around these days with their boobs hanging out are worried about being a wet T shirt contest. :eek:

Men do not wear tie tacks or bars in this day and age. We watch as their ties flap in the breeze. The men look like an unmade bed.

I've seen that exactly once. And it was on an AA rider that didn't know any better.

I would like to start a petition that when coats are waived, solid color polo shirts may be worn.
Comments?

I wouldn't support polo shirts in the hunters. Shoot, I wear my coat in the ring even if coats are waived. It's a matter of tradition and respect for the sport, for me. I can suffer for the two minutes it takes to get around the course.

Trixie
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:18 PM
I personally would really prefer waiving chokers and at most allowing people to roll up their sleeves. I'd rather purchase a picture with that look than a polo.


When you are out jogging there is not an audience of hundreds with their eyes on you and a photographer taking photos. Not a good comparison.

Very few horse shows have an "audience of hundreds."


I would venture that all who have voiced an opinion about not caring about how they look are not 15 year old girls. I had mothers whining that their daughters refused to ride without a coat due to modesty. ( Yeah, I know they walk around in sport bras with belly button rongs...yeah, yeah, yeah,...) I want to keep them healthy and hydrated.

I do not feel that the horse show industry should be bending around the fashion opinions of 15 year old girls.

I also really fail to understand how a polo shirt is more modest than a show shirt. That doesn't make any sense unless you're wearing the skimpiest, thinnest show shirt ever.

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:21 PM
Okay, then I won't bother. You all like it just the way it is.

Trixie
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:23 PM
Did you only want people to agree with you?

RockinHorse
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:23 PM
When you are out jogging there is not an audience of hundreds with their eyes on you and a photographer taking photos. Not a good comparison.


I want to know what show has hundreds watching the hunter classes :lol:.

RockinHorse
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:24 PM
I do not feel that the horse show industry should be bending around the fashion opinions of 15 year old girls.



I agree :yes:

justdandy
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:27 PM
Did you only want people to agree with you?

Obviously.:)

2bayboys
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:28 PM
When you are out jogging there is not an audience of hundreds with their eyes on you and a photographer taking photos. Not a good comparison.
I would venture that all who have voiced an opinion about not caring about how they look are not 15 year old girls. I had mothers whining that their daughters refused to ride without a coat due to modesty. ( Yeah, I know they walk around in sport bras with belly button rongs...yeah, yeah, yeah,...) I want to keep them healthy and hydrated.

Where I go running I promise you there is more of an audience than any show I have ever been to. :lol:

My point is that when I engage in a sports activity, I wear the appropriate clothing, expecting to sweat and anticipating the consequences. I would not wear a super-thin fabric that becomes transparent when wet, especially since I am going to hose off my own horse after I ride or stop by the local coffee shop after I run.

I absolutely support a "no jackets" waiver, but I think there are many options that are more appropriately in keeping with tradition than a polo shirt, while still allowing riders to remain relatively cool.

KnKShowmom
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:31 PM
So the rule changes for the hunter riders to be allowed to show in polos but what about the Eq riders - can't quite picture that happening.

Was at ODHS this weekend and did see one rider in the Childrens Medal go without a jacket but she was the only one -did get the call back to flat but did not see how she pinned.

When its that hot, DD warms up without her jacket and puts it on just before she goes in the ring. She has plenty to drink before she goes in and one waiting for her when she comes out. I will have a baggy with ice to put on her wrists/back of her neck and when she is done she gets the jacket off asap and cools off while I take care of her horse. It isn't fun but we get through it.

Everythingbutwings
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:33 PM
There is a place for casual dress in the hunters. It's called a "schooling show".

Heck, you can even wear half chaps! :winkgrin:

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:34 PM
No Trix, I wanted opinions. My remark was not sarcastic at all. But trying to change a rule is a big undertaking. I plan to not put that effort in due to the feed back. Thanks for your comments. And Trix, why are you wishing to start a fight? Not my intention at all.

Everythingbutwings
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:36 PM
No Trix, I wanted opinions. My remark was not sarcastic at all. But trying to change a rule is a big undertaking. I plan to not put that effort in due to the feed back. Thanks for your comments. And Trix, why are you wishing to start a fight? Not my intention at all.

You wanted opinions, you got offered opinions that don't happen to agree with you. How is that picking a fight?

TooManyChickens
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:36 PM
I don't really feel Monkey is trying to say that we should all bend the system because of the fashion opinions of 15 yo girls. I think she's trying to keep all riders comfortable.. it wasn't just 15 year old girls that were sweating.. everyone was. And I don't think it's so much of the 'see through' aspect as it is just having everything stick to everything.. it's not comfortable and it doesn't feel good to anyone. There are definitely some show shirts, like the cool max ones, that have more breathability, and have a marked difference between other shirts on the market. But I think there's only so far they can go in 100+ degree heat.

Having respect for the sport (and this is JMHO) is doing the best job you possibly can in an honest, good natured, appropriately presented manner, respecting the rules and welcoming all who show. And I agree, we're only talking about a few shows a year that this might take place. I think respect for the sport can still be had without a coat on hot days, as long as the rider is wearing a clean, appropriate substitute. As a judge, I'd rather see a rider in a fitted polo on a 105 degree day rather than a sweaty shirt. But again, that's just me. There are certainly plenty of other opportunities to be at other shows in the full attire and not feel like you might pass out.

Personally, I'd rather buy a picture of myself riding in a polo than a show shirt that has been rolled up/choker off. OR... I'll just buy something that is taken of me at another show :)

Trixie
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:41 PM
I'm not "wishing to start a fight."

I just don't understand why you're all foot stampy when folks disagree with your opinion.

If it's just sticky we're talking about, a polo is generally a heavier material than a breathable cotton show shirt. I know I regretted wearing one at the last jumper show I went to.

Everythingbutwings
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:44 PM
As a judge, I'd rather see a rider in a fitted polo on a 105 degree day rather than a sweaty shirt The thought of wearing a "fitted polo" on a sweltering day is oppressive. :yes:

Why need a rule change? I am quite sure that "As a judge" I'd pin a perfect round with the rider inappropriately dressed over a lesser round. It is about the horse, right?

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:44 PM
Not a problem,I'm outahere! Carry on :-)

Janet
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:47 PM
Devil's advocate.

I only go to hunter shows every couple of years- usually when I have a young horse that needs mileage over courses.

_I_ went and bought a more opaque ratcatcher/show shirt SPECIFICALLY to avoid the wet T-shirt look.

Surely the people who have lots of show shirts can get ONE that is opaque if the wet T-shirt look bothers them.

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:47 PM
The thought of wearing a "fitted polo" on a sweltering day is oppressive. :yes:

Why need a rule change? I am quite sure that "As a judge" I'd pin a perfect round with the rider inappropriately dressed over a lesser round. It is about the horse, right?

Last tweak. Judges don't care. Just find eight jumps :-D And yes in many classes it is about the horse. But we should strive to make both our animals and our riders as comfortable as we can in July and August. Thanks for your comments

DMK
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:48 PM
Hey, I would support polos in hot weather (sleeves, collars - how is that different from a ratcatcher with a top button undone and no choker and sleeves rolled up?), I show in the south and pretty much only at rated shows, so count me in for the target demographic. My Romfh polos do keep me a tad more comfortable, so yes, I'd be happy with a formal rule instead of just relying on a horse show's willingness to break a rule that its fairly obvious nobody is punishing them for, given the right circumstances... I mean there's tradition, and then there's heat stroke. I know what side I come down on.

ponymom64
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:48 PM
We were recently at a show where the temp was over 100 and the heat index higher than that. Jackets were not waived until very late in day and honestly, most of the riders in the Eq and the A rated divisions kept their jackets on. There were a few here and there in the pony ring or in the other divisions that went jacketless....

IMO, a nice collared (rat catcher type) shirt is much more appropriate for the hunter ring than a polo. It's not jumpers after all....

I do understand that the shirts can get sweaty but the teenage girls that we know generally wear a cami under their show shirts, so they are less revealing once the jackets come off, so that might be something to suggest for your students on the hot days.

Everythingbutwings
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:49 PM
But we should strive to make both our animals and our riders as comfortable as we can in July and August.

Okay! Cancel all shows where the temperature and humidity reach 95. :D

That's fair to our animals. The riders have a choice.

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:53 PM
You have a choice to show up or not.

Trixie
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:54 PM
Yes, but the horses don't.

We did consider going to a hunter show last weekend. Jackets or not, it was determined that it was too hot to be fair to horse or rider.

Janet
Jul. 28, 2010, 12:59 PM
This is what the dressage rules say. I added bold.


7. In extreme heat and/or humidity in all classes including FEI classes at National Competitions,
management can allow competitors to show without jackets. However, competitors
must wear a regulation hat and solid or nearly solid colored long or short sleeved shirt with
collar, without neckwear, and without decoration except as described under .12 below. Tshirts
are not permitted. Members of the Armed Services or police units may wear summer
uniforms.

Note "without neckwear". If it is too hot to wear a jacket, it is too hot to wear a stock or choker.

If you want to eliminate polo shirts, you could say
long or short sleeved woven shirt with
collar

indygirl2560
Jul. 28, 2010, 01:03 PM
I personally wouldn't show hunters or eq in a polo if given the choice. There are plenty of breathable non-white show shirts to wear to stay professional looking but still stay cool.

MyGiantPony
Jul. 28, 2010, 01:09 PM
You have a choice to show up or not.

Exactly, and if you choose to show up, then you should choose to dress appropriately.

If you can't handle the costume, don't get on the stage.

see u at x
Jul. 28, 2010, 01:09 PM
I do understand that the shirts can get sweaty but the teenage girls that we know generally wear a cami under their show shirts, so they are less revealing once the jackets come off, so that might be something to suggest for your students on the hot days.

Not a teenage girl here, but the idea of wearing one more item of clothing underneath my shirt besides my bra makes me want to sweat and die even more. :lol:

It really doesn't matter much to me whether or not I wear a show shirt or a polo when jackets are waived. I suffer very easily from heat exhaustion so I don't much care what I have to wear in order to not be as hot as I'd be if I had to wear the jacket. And believe me, for looks alone, I'd rather be sporting a jacket because I'm not skinny, but physically, I just can't do it unless I want to pass out.

I do agree with Trixie, though, in that if we're just wearing our show shirts, can we please do away with the damned choker? To me, it's the equivalent of wearing the stock tie in dressage when coats are waived - it isn't done, and if someone does wear it, it looks silly. Especially if your sleeves are rolled up, too! And regarding the sweat stains in the photographs, couldn't most photographers just photoshop them out?

2bayboys
Jul. 28, 2010, 01:10 PM
IMO, a nice collared (rat catcher type) shirt is much more appropriate for the hunter ring than a polo. It's not jumpers after all....



Agreed.

War Admiral
Jul. 28, 2010, 01:15 PM
I agree with the OP.

I was at a GHJA Local (but non-USEF) show this past weekend - jackets waived b/c the heat index was around 115 - where one barn had its kids riding in the hunter ring in BLACK polos, with black belt, boots, and gloves.

It looked SO much more put-together than soaking wet, dirty, rumpled show shirts. It just looked really clean-cut, super-nice and professional. And I say this in my capacity as an oldskool diva!

So kudos to that trainer (in case you're on here) - those kids looked GREAT.

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 01:15 PM
Yes, but the horses don't.

We did consider going to a hunter show last weekend. Jackets or not, it was determined that it was too hot to be fair to horse or rider.

No one is saying that you didn't dothe right thing.

RockinHorse
Jul. 28, 2010, 01:26 PM
No Trix, I wanted opinions. My remark was not sarcastic at all. But trying to change a rule is a big undertaking. I plan to not put that effort in due to the feed back. Thanks for your comments. And Trix, why are you wishing to start a fight? Not my intention at all.

While I think you are being a touch dramatic in your arguement (wet t-shirt contest, hundreds of spectators, etc), I would support a rule change to allow polos. I don't have any problem with the way it looks and I find riding in polos to be very comfortable.

DMK
Jul. 28, 2010, 01:26 PM
I don't think CM was looking for "agreement only" - sounds to me like she tested the waters, didn't get a lot of support and thought it wasn't worth the effort of a rule proposal - seems like picking a fight over nothing because it's hot and we are all grumpy?

That said, I really like the dressage rule - that certainly provides the best of both worlds - you could wear your ratcatcher without a collar and I could wear my Romfh polo, and neither of us would be blinded by some uber loud joules polo. Win win. You may feel free to be aghasted at my polo, I'm down with that. ;)

And COTH is a good start for getting the feel of it, but I still think its better to take it as a rule proposal to USEF and let members provide feedback. Bottom line, that's who it really affects...

SkipChange
Jul. 28, 2010, 01:44 PM
IMO, a nice collared (rat catcher type) shirt is much more appropriate for the hunter ring than a polo. It's not jumpers after all....


Agreed. Plus, are y'all ever watching the jumpers go? Even we wear our and coats in the heat for classics. Out of the 6 classics that went over the past two weeks jackets were waived exactly twice (and many people wore jackets then anyway) and were mandatory the other four times. They sent riders wearing polos back to the barn to fetch formal show attire for the classics. Temperatures were 90s-100s with high humidity.

I did see polos in the hunter ring on thursday and a few friday, even the pro's were wearing them. Honestly, I think a CoolMax show shirt is cooler than a polo shirt and most days that's what I wear for jumpers instead of a polo. I don't really have a problem with polos in the hunter ring during the week, but for Saturday and Sunday I really think show shirts should at least be worn.

Lucassb
Jul. 28, 2010, 01:47 PM
No dog in this fight although I personally would not feel comfortable showing in the hunters or eq wearing a polo shirt.

However, I agree that it is possible to purchase normal (ratcatcher) shirts in fabrics that are designed for comfort in hot weather (coolmax etc) and which are constructed with fabrics that don't become revealing if you sweat.

I got this one as a bonus when purchasing another item and was pleasantly surprised at how well it performs in the heat. It's become my go-to shirt for summer showing.

You can't really tell from the picture but the fabric is kind of a waffle weave - it doesn't become see-through at all like some of the cotton shirts do, and the stretch/coolmax combo really work to keep you comfy.

All that... and it's very inexpensive. (And yes, in addition to the plaid, it comes with a normal collar.)

http://www.equestriancollections.com/product.asp?groupcode=JP60015

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 01:49 PM
All riders at our show last week wore show coats and shadbellies for all Derbies and Classics. They just chose to do it. It perhaps helped that our derby was run at 8am

MHM
Jul. 28, 2010, 02:08 PM
I wouldn't support polo shirts in the hunters. Shoot, I wear my coat in the ring even if coats are waived. It's a matter of tradition and respect for the sport, for me. I can suffer for the two minutes it takes to get around the course.




IMO, a nice collared (rat catcher type) shirt is much more appropriate for the hunter ring than a polo. It's not jumpers after all....

Ditto to both of these comments.

As for the modesty concerns of teenage girls... Not to sound like my grandmother, but have you seen what "kids today" wear to the mall? Or even to ride at a show on a Tuesday? :eek:

eclipse
Jul. 28, 2010, 02:11 PM
I'd love it if they allowed plain, solid coloured polos in the hunter ring but I'd also be ok if they just waived jackets and allowed us to show in show shirts! This past weekend I was at a large gold rated show in Alberta and while they waived jackets in the jumper rings for the mini prixs, stake classes etc they did NOT (and would not) wiaver them in the hunters! Sigh.....it was hot, humid and we had no shade. Putting that thing on and off between rounds was a pain but it was the only way to avoid falling off due to overheating! (that and drinking gallons upon gallons of water!)

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 02:18 PM
Ditto to both of these comments.

As for the modesty concerns of teenage girls... Not to sound like my grandmother, but have you seen what "kids today" wear to the mall? Or even to ride at a show on a Tuesday? :eek:

I guess you missed my comment about belly button rings.

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 02:18 PM
Ditto to both of these comments.

As for the modesty concerns of teenage girls... Not to sound like my grandmother, but have you seen what "kids today" wear to the mall? Or even to ride at a show on a Tuesday? :eek:

I guess you missed my comment about belly button rings.

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 02:22 PM
You wanted opinions, you got offered opinions that don't happen to agree with you. How is that picking a fight?
It is fine to not agree. Not sure why she was insisting that I had a problem with people not agreeing! I just willnot champion a rule change based on my exhibitor's wishes from last week whenI see that more than 50% here don't care.

MHM
Jul. 28, 2010, 02:28 PM
I guess you missed my comment about belly button rings.

I saw your comment.

I simply pointed out that for many kids, the sweaty show shirt may be the most modest thing they wear all week. :lol:

kdow
Jul. 28, 2010, 02:28 PM
Exactly, and if you choose to show up, then you should choose to dress appropriately.

If you can't handle the costume, don't get on the stage.

I have to admit, I don't quite understand this attitude, or the one where jackets are waived and people persist in wearing them anyway. There's tradition and then there's just being dangerous - people starting to suffer from heat exhaustion and dehydration are much more likely to make stupid mistakes or dangerous errors in judgment, well before the fainting and falling off the horse stage.

Someone wearing neat and tidy but weather appropriate clothing would, to me, look much better 'turned out' than someone sweating to death but wearing the full kit.

Probably a good thing I'm not a Hunter judge. :)

DMK
Jul. 28, 2010, 02:28 PM
It is fine to not agree. Not sure why she was insisting that I had a problem with people not agreeing! I just willnot champion a rule change based on my exhibitor's wishes from last week whenI see that more than 50% here don't care.

Last week if your show was a rated show, then 100% of the people supporting the change were USEF members. The problem with COTH is some/none/most/all are USEF members, so its not necessarily the best litmus test (plus when you ask an open question like this, typically you only get those with strong opinions as opposed to those that are not opposed, but don't really care). The point being that a majority of USEF members may care deeply one way or another or not at all, but this is a lousy place to find out. ;) But the fact that there is already good language in the dressage rules means we have a good opportunity to discuss what is a bit of a hole in the current h/j rules. Seems like a good idea to me to at least put it out there for discussion...

hntrjmprpro45
Jul. 28, 2010, 02:31 PM
I like to wear a light weight undershirt (like a camisole) under my show shirt if I am worried about it being see through. This also allows me to change show shirts in my tack stall while still maintaining some decency.

IMO, I think a nice long sleeved, light colored, cool max shirt keeps me cooler since it keeps the sun off of my arms.

In general don't think the polo makes that much difference in comparison to a long sleeve coolmax shirt (and as I said I think the coolmax is cooler). If it DOES make that much difference to you as an individual, then you probably shouldn't be showing when its that hot.

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 02:39 PM
Last week if your show was a rated show, then 100% of the people supporting the change were USEF members. The problem with COTH is some/none/most/all are USEF members, so its not necessarily the best litmus test (plus when you ask an open question like this, typically you only get those with strong opinions as opposed to those that are not opposed, but don't really care). The point being that a majority of USEF members may care deeply one way or another or not at all, but this is a lousy place to find out. ;) But the fact that there is already good language in the dressage rules means we have a good opportunity to discuss what is a bit of a hole in the current h/j rules. Seems like a good idea to me to at least put it out there for discussion...

You are right!! Next time I ask for an opinion on this board, please put a gun at my head :-)

Trixie
Jul. 28, 2010, 02:40 PM
I'm a USEF member, and I do think it's a valid discussion.

I think the dressage rules are a good place to start. I do personally think polos are generally too casual for a hunter class, but moreover I think it's worse to be required to wear a high choker collar on a hundred-degree day.

You'll have a better arguement with "unsafe" or "heat stroke" than you will about women and teenagers feeling immodest and uncomfortable in a shirt that practically goes from wrists to ears, though.

Richmond
Jul. 28, 2010, 02:41 PM
The 50% that don't care were not passing out in the 105* temps at your show last weekend! ;) Waive away, please!!

War Admiral
Jul. 28, 2010, 02:45 PM
Yes, Richmond, I think you have a point. Having done time in the Northeast as a junior, I can honestly say that no matter how hot you THINK you are at a horse show up North in the summer, you have no IDEA what we're really up against down here in the South. None.

So I wonder whether those objecting are simply from cooler climates, where putting on a jacket for 5 minutes is more or less survivable. Down here, it's flat-out dangerous.

USEF member, and I'd support the rule change.

MyGiantPony
Jul. 28, 2010, 02:49 PM
I have to admit, I don't quite understand this attitude, or the one where jackets are waived and people persist in wearing them anyway. There's tradition and then there's just being dangerous - people starting to suffer from heat exhaustion and dehydration are much more likely to make stupid mistakes or dangerous errors in judgment, well before the fainting and falling off the horse stage.


It's not wearing a coat for the 3-5 minutes in the ring that's going to cause heat exhaution and deyhdration. It may exacerbate the symptoms, but one shouldn't go without water/gatoraide long enough to get to the point that jumping a course is going to be dangerous.

If conditions warrant no jacket, a long sleeved ratcatcher is suitable and offers enough relief to get around 8 jumps.

Richmond
Jul. 28, 2010, 02:51 PM
Ditto! (W.A.)

hntrjmprpro45
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:01 PM
Yes, Richmond, I think you have a point. Having done time in the Northeast as a junior, I can honestly say that no matter how hot you THINK you are at a horse show up North in the summer, you have no IDEA what we're really up against down here in the South. None.

So I wonder whether those objecting are simply from cooler climates, where putting on a jacket for 5 minutes is more or less survivable. Down here, it's flat-out dangerous.

USEF member, and I'd support the rule change.

Just thought I would add that I am from zone 7- its currently in the upper 90s. I don't mind riding without a jacket but I don't think I would ride in polo at a rated. (and I am also a USEF member).

I actually thought most of the COTHers were USEF members (at least those who are in the US). Are there really that many who aren't?

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:05 PM
My feeling is the esthetics are off. To me seeing a ratcatcher shirt with no jacket is like a man in a tuxedo with no tuxedo jacket. Undressed.
A polo is a casual statement. In this case it is a statement made in the name of heat and health and young ladies self esteem. All are valid concerns.

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:12 PM
Just thought I would add that I am from zone 7- its currently in the upper 90s. I don't mind riding without a jacket but I don't think I would ride in polo at a rated. (and I am also a USEF member).

I actually thought most of the COTHers were USEF members (at least those who are in the US). Are there really that many who aren't?
Now that would be an interesting survey! I would bet that over 50% of forum posters are not USEF members. I would also love to see how many currently are showing horses in performance divisions.
For the record as a horse show manager and exhibitor, I am a member. Lets start a new thread for that.

DMK
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:21 PM
yes, in the past there have been various polls about how many rated shows/local shows posters have attended in the previous 3 years, average # shows and so on... It used to be surprising to me how many members (the majority responding to polls at least) had not shown in rated shows in the immediate past, at least.

But the BB is about people who love the discipline, not who forks over the money to go to rated shows, so its all good. And - for the first time in years, I gave my wallet a rest. A few years ago I was a Zone Point Ho, last year was showing the 2 year old on the line. This year? Trail riding the retired oldster and 120 days under saddle on his 3 year old replacement. Next year, it's back to bidness. So yeah, I'm one of those non-USEF members for at least this 12 month stretch. My horses are lifers though. Does that count? :p

findeight
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:27 PM
USEF member here (lifetime).

I think something along the lines of the Dressage specifics would be a good place to start. And, yeah, puhleeeze waive the dam choker. There are plenty of show shirt choices out there that don't turn transparent but having that top button undone and no choker makes all the difference in the world.

Oh...and all that "it's only 2 minutes" have somebody hold it nonsense? No, it is 2 or 3 trips a few minutes apart and a 5 to 10 minute under saddle. My trainer is flying on the golf cart between 3 rings. My Mum passed some time back. And my friends (yes, I have them) are not dumb enough to leave the a/c or at least a shady spot and hand me my coat before each class then take it back soaked and stinky and hold it until I am on deck for the next round or the hack.

Forget the Classics and GPs, lets stay on the normal back to back Hunter classes 8 weeks out of the year in the southern zones where the sun is higher then in the northeast and it's just stupid parading around in a fall/winter ensemble.

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:27 PM
Oh yeah! You count! A lifetime enthusiast.

2bayboys
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:30 PM
I actually thought most of the COTHers were USEF members (at least those who are in the US). Are there really that many who aren't?

This is totally off topic and I mean no offense at all, but I giggled when I read this because it me reminded of a conversation I just had with a young lady who was shocked, outright jaw-dropping, could not believe it, shocked, when she was informed that the majority of the world's human beings are NOT Christians. That in fact something in the neighborhood of 33% of the population adhere to Christianity, while the rest practice other faiths or no faith at all. I think I actually rocked her world a little when I told her that.

Anyway, back on topic, it doesn't surprise me at all that the majority of COTHers would be horse lovers, but not competitors. Tons of people just love to ride and couldn't care less about showing.

findeight
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:35 PM
Well, lifetime used to be less then it is now and, as I was a member paying annually for about 12 years back in the 70s, I sprung for the lifetime 18 years ago when I rejoined. It has worked out to less then paying annually.

But, alas, no rated shows in 2 years (horse is 20+ and I am...older). No shows at all this year for the first time in 18 years for me and 10 for the horse. Barn is a busy place though so I am not out of the loop. Knee deep in prepping Ponies at the moment:cool:.

hntrjmprpro45
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:40 PM
Maybe I should have said that I thought most of the hunter/jumper forum COTHers would be USEF members. I know many COTHers don't do a lot of rated shows but I have several students that only do one or two USEF shows a year (and only ride in the schooling divisions) but are still USEF members.

It just seems that since the COTH forums compliment the magazine (which features all the different shows), then many of the COTHers would also compete in shows.

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:43 PM
I would have expected the Chronicle forum posters to be more cometition oriented. Reason? The Chronicle is a competition oriented magazine. I have almost every copy back 1964. It is all about competition, with the add in of Fox Hunting.
Practical Horseman for instance will run horse care stories. ( So did the Chronicle years ago) I would expect their forum to have all sorts. I am surprised about who posts on the Chronicle forum.

findeight
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:44 PM
... seems that since the COTH forums compliment the magazine (which features all the different shows), then many of the COTHers would also compete in shows.

You'd think. I'd be surprised if more then half were actively showing and far less at rated levels. Expect that might ruffle some feathers but feel it to be true after being on here so long.

Certainly not to say everybody is not entitled to their opinion showing at whatever level or not.

MHM
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:45 PM
USEF life member and licensed official. What with one thing and another, I probably attend about 40 shows a year.

And I also did the mental math on a life membership when dues went up about 20 years ago, after paying the annual fee for years. I think I figured out I couldn't get hit by a bus for about 15 years for the life membership to pay for itself, but I forgot to factor in subsequent USEF rate hikes, so really, I came out ahead even sooner. :lol:

Janet
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:47 PM
I would be surprized if as much as 50% of the COTH posters are USEF members.

Even if you just looked at those that post on H/J.

There are also LOTS of COTH posters who do NOT subscribe to the magazine.

FWIW, I am USEF member.

War Admiral
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:52 PM
LOL, I'm curious now, so I'll spin it off. :D I do suspect the number of USEF members is higher here in the H/J forum than on the board overall... So let's go...

MyGiantPony
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:53 PM
Not currently a member. Was a member way back when it was AHSA. Dropped horsey things as a single mom and raised the kiddo.

Rejoined a few years back, but haven't reupped for the past couple as the mare is retired.

Debating about rejoining for next year - just really over showing at the rated shows...BTDT and it's a LOT more expensive now.

I have more fun at our local shows, and it's only $10 a class. And we can wear polos. :lol:

Since I'm not going to be doing anything to chase points, not sure there's any benefit to being a member. If I do a sidesaddle show or two, I'll probably just pay the non-member fee.

kdow
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:56 PM
It's not wearing a coat for the 3-5 minutes in the ring that's going to cause heat exhaution and deyhdration. It may exacerbate the symptoms, but one shouldn't go without water/gatoraide long enough to get to the point that jumping a course is going to be dangerous.

My concern would be that since part of the symptoms of heat exhaustion is poor judgment, it's quite possible to have a competitor who isn't keeping hydrated/cool and doesn't realize how close to the edge they are and then putting the coat on is enough to tip them over the edge.

To be fair, I don't really care what someone is wearing if not a coat, so long as it's temperature-appropriate. If that's a coolmax show shirt, that's just fine with me. What bothers me most is the attitude that so many people seem to have that if coats are waived, you wear them anyway Because That's What You Do.

I know one person mentioned that at one show coats were expressly forbidden after people ignored the fact that they were waived and continued to have problems - if that's not an official policy option, perhaps it should be? So a show could opt to waive coats (meaning it's the rider's choice) or, if conditions are bad enough, they could opt to flat out ban them entirely. Kind of a green - yellow - red light tiered system, to remove any kind of peer/trainer pressure issues.

(Part of my concern is from recently having to help out a friend who is a nurse who knows perfectly well how to treat heat exhaustion, who was experiencing it herself. She didn't pick up on any of the symptoms, thought she was keeping hydrated, and then just kind of mentally and physically went 'splat' - not that she literally passed out, but her body just couldn't cope. At that point, even though she was able to walk and talk and more or less seemed okay to the casual observer, she *couldn't* *remember* how to treat heat exhaustion. It was just like all her problem-solving ability had switched off. It was very weird, came on quite suddenly, and I can very easily see it happening in a show environment and causing major health and safety problems.)

Renn/aissance
Jul. 28, 2010, 03:56 PM
USEF member, live and show in Baltimore, last Saturday was 109 not counting humidity, very heat sensitive over here. Would support a rule change for no hunt coats, ratcatchers without collars and top button undone, or solid-colored shirt with collar. You wouldn't catch me in the hunter ring with a polo, I do not think it is appropriate hunter ring attire, but it leaves plenty of room for a light-colored dress shirt- although the Coolmax ratcatcher is more practical.

MyGiantPony
Jul. 28, 2010, 04:01 PM
To be fair, I don't really care what someone is wearing if not a coat, so long as it's temperature-appropriate. If that's a coolmax show shirt, that's just fine with me. What bothers me most is the attitude that so many people seem to have that if coats are waived, you wear them anyway Because That's What You Do.


Oh, I agree with that - if it's bad enough that coats are waived, then it's probably not the best choice to continue to wear one.

I just don't understand why anyone thinks polo shirts are any cooler than a ratcatcher.

Do they still make the short-sleeved ratcatchers?

I never liked them, but IMO, it would be a more appropriate compromise than a polo shirt.

findeight
Jul. 28, 2010, 04:10 PM
Hey, I don't care what they wear as long as it's decent. Just glad it is becoming more acceptable to waive the jackets and you see fewer die hards out there with cherry red faces stuck to a pool of sweat on the saddle. With trainers who tout the fact they were forced to do it therefore all must do the same.

I feel sorry for the Pros riding 20-30 trips a day. Funny thing, as they get older, they seem more accepting of shirtsleeves;).

REH
Jul. 28, 2010, 04:18 PM
A few comments:

When my horse can take off his coat because of the heat, then I will take off mine. If it's too hot for me to show with my coat, I'll let me horse have the day off with my coat ;)

People who ride in those see-through crappy riding shirts (think short sleeve with shiny white pinstripes) should sit out a horse show or two and save up and buy one made of better fabric. Any coolmax shirt on the market isn't see through when wet.

Any young girl who feels too modest to be around a bunch of females and most-likely gay men who aren't interested in boobies in a sweat-soaked shirt needs to be reminded that she felt this way the next time she's clothes shopping with her mother and wants to buy some Britney Spears-looking outfit.

Carry on.

lindsay.anne
Jul. 28, 2010, 04:19 PM
Coming from a hot-blooded, larger upper chest area rider. I dont know how comfortable I'd be showing in a hunter class in a polo. I start to sweat just looking at a picture of a sunny day, I will walk around the barn in a polo in 30 degree weather and never get a goosebump. When the jackets are waived, five minutes before I'll put on my long sleeve coolmax shirt [almost never the color white] (over a cami), and a minute before I'll put on the choker. I keep myself hydrated throughout the day, and "suck it up" for the 5 minutes that a flat class will take.

I sweat like a pig, get dehydrated very fast, and have been known to pass out because of the heat. But I've never felt heat exhausted from jumping 3 courses and a flat class in the heat in just my show shirt. The key is to stay hydrated and cool yourself off when you leave the ring [ice packs on the back of your neck are WONDERFUL.. use the ice horse icepacks too ;) ]. And I've never felt over exposed either.

To me, a nice polo is a thicker, heavier material than a coolmax show shirt (and most show shirts that I own), I'd rather wear one of those, then a polo. I would definitely sweat more in the polo.

chunky munky
Jul. 28, 2010, 04:21 PM
Lets start a newtopic for USEF members. Guess I will have to. Please keep to the polo/ratcatcher topic. It is important. Thanks

2bayboys
Jul. 28, 2010, 04:27 PM
Why not something along these lines when jackets are waived:

http://www.landsend.com/pp/StylePage-284295_6H.html?CM_MERCH=REC-_-LIPP-_-GGT-_-1-_-284295-_-177381

Very classic, conservative, good-looking. Isn't that what hunters are about? ;)

mpsbarnmanager
Jul. 28, 2010, 04:29 PM
I also don't see that happening for a variety of reasons, and have a hard time believing that a 15 yo girl, as I was showing at that age, won't wear just a shirt for "modesty". Wear a bra. Don't mean to sound like a jerk, but why not try to make the rule that short sleeved show shirts are allowed? It is still a show after all.

War Admiral
Jul. 28, 2010, 04:32 PM
Lets start a newtopic for USEF members. Guess I will have to. Please keep to the polo/ratcatcher topic. It is important. Thanks

I just did it for you, Chunky! :)

Trixie
Jul. 28, 2010, 04:33 PM
Short sleeve show shirts ARE technically allowed. They're just not generally done.

The rules for both hunter and eq say:


When management permits Hunter or Hunter Seat Equitation riders to ride without jackets, riders must wear traditional, short, or long-sleeved riding shirts with chokers or ties.

The rules, however, explicitly prohibit polo shirts.

findeight
Jul. 28, 2010, 04:36 PM
Far as just not showing? Well, if you shipped your horse 3 states away and either bought a plane ticket or spent 6+ hours in the car? And racked up a $600 bill in the show office on top of everything else? Might not be such an easy choice.

And alot of folks BODY CLIP their horses in summer (especially WBs and alot of Ponies) so they DO get to take their coats off. Even if they don't, the analogy would be them wearing a winter blanket on course to compare to our wool coats.

For those who do show alot and have to commit (enter, reserve and pay for stall) in advance and travel to get to those shows, hot weather clothing options are welcome.

And, CM? I'd prefer a long sleeved shirt with open collar-and that is what I have worn when given the choice. But if those stodgy uber traditional Dressage people can go in a solid polo (no #3s in 18 colors)? That ought to be OK and exhibitors choice.

I would support that. Management can retain formal requirements for single classes (Classics) at their disgression-and hopefully schedual them away from 4pm on the hottest day of the year.

danceronice
Jul. 28, 2010, 04:39 PM
Honestly, all for tradition and stuff but some of our traditions actually steer newbies someplace they don't have to dress for a frosty morning chasing hounds when circling a nearly deserted sand ring at 98f actual with heat index at 115 as it was for 3 days of that show I mentioned. We should look at that.

I was going to say, since they call it hunters after foxhunters, maybe consider that if it's 102 in the shade and 70% humidity...it's probably the wrong time of year to be foxhunting and maybe the clothes aren't appropriate?

DMK
Jul. 28, 2010, 05:02 PM
I was going to add, that if you do/don't like polos, that's perfectly fine, but I'm not sure what the value is in saying/implying a person who needs to show in a polo, should hang it up if they can't survive in a ratcatcher or some variation on that theme. You don't like it, that's enough. Trying to figure out what other people's heat tolerance/preference is... well, most of us are probably not qualified in that area. But what we like... we are all qualified to know what we like. Case in point, I ride in full chaps year 'round, they don't bother me ... but there is a real difference for me in even a short sleeved versus no sleeved shirt. If you (generic you) feel like you would die in chaps in this heat, I respect that. It's what works for each of us in this weather.

BUT if the rule is changed allowing open collars/no chokers (that really is good common sense in high heat/humidity), then how would a polo differ from a short sleeved ratcatcher? I mean other than the number of buttons?

janedoe726
Jul. 28, 2010, 05:09 PM
To me, it really is a shame that in this day and age we don't have more options than this. I agree that the coolmax show shirts probably are cooler than a traditional polo shirt, but why haven't companies like Nike, Addidas, Under Armour, etc. tapped into this market? I suppose the demand isn't that high in comparison to the general population, but it doesn't look like it would be all that hard to take a design they already have and tweak it a bit. Now to be totally fair, I will admit that I'm not a USEF member and haven't been in a show ring in probably 10 years, so technically I don't have a dog in this fight either, but I am a runner, and I do know how much cooler technical running gear is. Unbelievable.

CM- for what it's worth, if I were a USEF member, I would totally support your proposal. If polo shirts were optional, why would anyone have a problem with it? If someone finds the polo inappropriate, that person could carry on his/her merry little way with his/her merry little ratchatcher. Why is it that horse people (specifically Hunters...) worry so much about what other people are wearing??

findeight
Jul. 28, 2010, 05:12 PM
BUT if the rule is changed allowing open collars/no chokers (that really is good common sense in high heat/humidity), then how would a polo differ from a short sleeved ratcatcher? I mean other than the number of buttons?

It does not. For those saying the polo is a heavier weave? Have you tried the nice, conservative Golf and Tennis dry weave shirts? They look sharp, are modest and light as a feather with discreet logos. For some reason, the ones designed for horses are flashy and muti colored with a big logo plastered where it cannot be missed.

Exhibitors should have the option as the Dressage people decided to give their exhibitors. Solid color, woven short sleeved shirts (polos) rat catchers or show shirts. Short or long sleeved, open collar permitted. When designated as appropriate by show management is extreme heat/humidity-exhibitors may suggest to mangement conditions are such they need to so designate.

Hattie
Jul. 28, 2010, 05:37 PM
Another 40 year AHSA/USEF member that would support the rule. I was looking at pictures from last weeks show in Charleston (waived coats) and I thought the wet, clingy ratcatcher was not at all attractive. A nice dark colored conservative polo looks more appealing IMHO. Besides there is nothing worse than having a soaked long sleeve shirt sticking to your arms. AND yes, this happens with my CoolMax shirts.

Roisin
Jul. 28, 2010, 05:37 PM
USEF member.

WA and Richmond are right on about the difference between "hot" up north and "hot" down south. Having just moved north to south in the past year, I am acutely aware of that fact now! :-D

Completely agree with findeight on her points:
- nix the choker collar if we want to stick with long sleeve shirts.
- it's not "suck it up" for 3 minutes in the coat if you are doing 4 trips back to back in a rotation of 4 horses

Also, people's individual physiology is different. I've seen some girls/women at shows who look like they never sweat at all. I, on the other hand, literally need to carry a face towel with me all day at the horse show to keep the sweat out of my eyes! I'm a sweat-er...so is my horse!

Personally, I would be fine with nice polos in the hunters. I would also be fine with a short or long-sleeved dress shirt, without the choker. My chokers are getting ruined because the black chin strap on my CO is staining them.

tigrrlily04
Jul. 28, 2010, 06:07 PM
One point to consider...if jackets were waived more often, I bet manufacturers would begin to make sleek looking short sleeve collared shirts to wear in the show ring. The dressage community has embraced the "coolmax, short sleeve, light colored shirt with collar" for showing at licensed competitions in the summer. Per the rules, it can not be buttoned to the top like a ratcatcher, but has to have an actual collar (so you don't feel like you're wearing a turtleneck in the summer!). It took a few years to transition from the majority of competitors still wearing coats when they were waived, to the majority of competitors wearing just shirts when coats are waived. It still looks nice and put together if you do it right. Most dressage shirt manufacturers make competition shirts that fit the bill, I'm thinking that other show shirt manufacturers would follow suit and make hot weather show shirts in whatever style the hunter community embraced if there was a market.

Another point from the dressage community, they even allow cooling vests (like cool medics) to be ridden in the show ring over a collared shirt. It is written in the USDF rules.

So, while I like the tradition of the show jacket look, every person handles heat differently and has different levels of comfort with what they are wearing. I would love to see coats be waived more often, and even have rules that make it mandatory for the situations when people think they can rise above the heat and end up eating it. If the trend started now, in 5 years no one would think twice about it.

And one last thought, for the traditionalists out there, when GPA helmets were first introduced, I bet no one thought they would soon be the norm in the hunter ring. Same could go for collared show shirts.

Madeline
Jul. 28, 2010, 06:12 PM
A few comments:

When my horse can take off his coat because of the heat, then I will take off mine. If it's too hot for me to show with my coat, I'll let me horse have the day off with my coat ;)

People who ride in those see-through crappy riding shirts (think short sleeve with shiny white pinstripes) should sit out a horse show or two and save up and buy one made of better fabric. Any coolmax shirt on the market isn't see through when wet.



Did you really write this? And sign your (almost) name?
Egad.

hntrjmprpro45
Jul. 28, 2010, 06:25 PM
It does not. For those saying the polo is a heavier weave? Have you tried the nice, conservative Golf and Tennis dry weave shirts? They look sharp, are modest and light as a feather with discreet logos. For some reason, the ones designed for horses are flashy and muti colored with a big logo plastered where it cannot be missed.

I absolutely love wearing Nike polos. I like the tennis polos because those are meant for REALLY sweating- plus they are very flattering and feminine. I only wear those for schooling but I do agree that they are much cooler than the horsey ones- not to mention cheaper than most horse-brand polos.

Just thought I would add this- in breed shows like AQHA, in the western divisions, you must wear a long sleeve show shirt. I remember I HATED wearing the full outfit- long sleeve shirt, vest, FULL CHAPS, and you can't forget the giant belt buckle (which conducted heat and probably fried my organs). After showing western, the standard hunter attire is not nearly so bad!

Sing Mia Song
Jul. 28, 2010, 06:49 PM
CM, I'm a USEF member and would wholeheartedly support your proposal. I showed this past weekend in a sage green polo shirt when jackets were waived and ratcatchers and polos were specifically permitted. I generally school in a polo and change to my ratcatcher just before my classes, as I have the unique ability to get filthy like Pig Pen. The sage polo hid slobber stains quite nicely :lol:

I actually prefer the look of a polo to a ratcatcher shirt, but that's just me. It would be nice to have the choice more often.

I recently judged a Wednesday night schooling show where the kids from different barns all wore matching polos. I thought that was a nice touch.

supershorty628
Jul. 28, 2010, 07:04 PM
I find it hard to deviate from tradition, personally. I've done the hunters, eq, and jumpers, and can count on one hand the number of times that I showed without a coat (even in my jumper classes, I almost always wear one). I don't think it's so awful to wear the coat - if it's really hot, I'll put it on right before I go in the ring. Then again, I ride in a back brace (which is MUCH hotter than any coat), so my heat tolerance is pretty good.

I personally would not care to show in a polo in anything other than the jumpers. Whether other people did or did not would not concern me...if you find there's that big of a difference for you without a show coat, by all means, propose a rule change!

GiGi Larkin
Jul. 28, 2010, 07:20 PM
I wouldn't support polo shirts in the hunters. Shoot, I wear my coat in the ring even if coats are waived. It's a matter of tradition and respect for the sport, for me. I can suffer for the two minutes it takes to get around the course.

Same here!!!:D

Phoebe
Jul. 28, 2010, 09:42 PM
I'm agreeing with what Renn said here except I'm down in VA ......no temp difference that I could see.........
USEF member, live and show in Baltimore, last Saturday was 109 not counting humidity, very heat sensitive over here. Would support a rule change for no hunt coats, ratcatchers without collars and top button undone, or solid-colored shirt with collar. You wouldn't catch me in the hunter ring with a polo, I do not think it is appropriate hunter ring attire, but it leaves plenty of room for a light-colored dress shirt- although the Coolmax ratcatcher is more practical.

chaser74
Jul. 28, 2010, 10:48 PM
Virginia. USEF member. Got to show for two weekends in a row in 100+ degree heat, with oppressive humidity (that's real temp, not heat index). Wore polo for one (non rated show) and coolmax ratcatcher for USEF show. Not much difference--EXCEPT--the *$@#%! collar on the ratcatcher. That said, I'm one of those medical professional sorts, and have spent two weekends this summer caring for heat exhausted kids, one of whom came off on landing. Don't know what it does for your nerves, but I wasn't enjoying trying to cool a kid off while she vomitted after falling off. Yes, she went to the ER and 'had her head examined!' But really, that's not a good scenario, and I was concerned that we could have a head injury there. Both kids had been drinking appropriately all day. Both had eaten (I had proof right there in the ring....!). There are times when the human body simply can NOT cool us off. Period. No blame, simple fact. The "two girls" I worry about in the heat don't need a sports bra, as they would be the carotid arteries. Putting a high, tight collar over them on their way to the brain which is encased in a black helmet....geez, give your body a little chance to protect you!

Polos, unbuttoned ratcatchers, from a heat/cool perspective probably not much different. Plus and minus to both. Let's just keep the neck open!

KristieBee
Jul. 28, 2010, 11:37 PM
i think a polo shirt looks worse - big sweaty pit circles, and sweat marks running down the back? EW. lol.

at least a traditional show shirt hangs a little looser on your body, and a strategically chosen color won't go transparent at all. btw, in my experience, it's cooler too. lighter fabric and more air circulation.

second the idea of no chokers though. although again, for two minutes in the ring, that aspect is not that huge of a deal.

gottagrey
Jul. 29, 2010, 12:28 AM
ChunkyMunky I agree w/ you completely - and also agree w/ Janet's post. Several years ago USEA rule about excusing jackets was if the heat index was 85 or higher! Now they've relaxed it even more for one day horse trials I believe. Having crossed over from hunters to eventing I can say that the majority of the time people who turn their horses and themselves out well will do so no matter what they are wearing. Case in point, several years ago I was at a schooling hunter show woman shows up on a gleaming gorgeous animal - she's in a polo shirt. Did not distract from the overall picture. Another rider shows up - her horse's coat is dull/lackluster turnout - like she just took him from the field and put him on the trailer but ohhh she's wearing a jacket - an ill fitting jacket. SOOO who's got the better turnout? who's got more "respect for the sport, the judge and her horse? The one in the jacket or the one in the polo? I also remember watching a couple dressage videos one w/ Swedish riders, the other w/ UK. Swedes were all wearing those mock ratcatchers short sleeved shirts - flattering fit, horses were bathed, groomed - overall nice picture. UK video - large ill fitting jackets, unpulled manes, untrimmed feet, horses not clipped. Ahh but they were wearing jackets. Again, which presents the nicest pictures. Again, sometimes it's not about what's required, but about the turnout.

the USEA rule book states pretty much the same about conservative color polo or short sleeved shirt and I believe so does the USEF rule book.

Certainly if you are going to petition a rule about excusing jackets then of course it has to be in both hunters and equitation. Last time I checked the temperature did not suddenly drop during an equitation class. I also think your petition should include using the temperature or heat index like the USEA. i.e. if the heat index is 90 or above jackets management will excuse jackets period.

I was at a show this weekend heat index was around 105/110 I think, one trainer insisted that even though jackets were excused her kids would still wear them. Her kids didn't look ill or uncomfortable - had they I might have interceded. Amazes me that some parents will not stand up to trainer about jackets, instead watching their kids pass out on their ponies/horses. A ribbon is just not worth a few days in the hospital

Across Sicily
Jul. 29, 2010, 01:02 AM
People who ride in those see-through crappy riding shirts (think short sleeve with shiny white pinstripes) should sit out a horse show or two and save up and buy one made of better fabric. Any coolmax shirt on the market isn't see through when wet.

Not true. I own one - and it was expensive... and long sleeved. I almost died when I figured out it was completely see-through after I'd finished my rides (with a coat over, thank you) and yes, I was wearing a bra.

I'm a USEF member and compete regularly, and I would L.O.V.E. to be able to wear a polo in the hunters. Or anything other than a freaking wool coat, really. If you think about it, horse people are incredibly insane - we have our largest competitions during the hottest weather, outdoors under full sun, ride a large, hot, sweating animal, and wear pants, leather boots up to our knees (which aren't exactly known for dissipating heat), a long sleeved turtleneck (for all intents and purposes), leather gloves, a WOOL COAT in a dark color so as to absorb MORE heat from the sun, a hat that is 2 inches thick, and what are basically little earmuffs over our ears (hunter hair). There's something like six square inches of bare skin that stick out. In summer. With temps over 90. And humid. On a sweating animal. Whilst doing an athletic activity.

I get "tradition", and I love how it all looks - I really do! - but it's my feeling that horseback riding attire needs to take a step out of the dark ages and move toward sucking less for the rider. Yes, breeches have come a long way, and so have coolmax shirts and vented helmets, but the fact of the matter is... if you're going running in 90+ degree heat, you're going to wear a pair of wee shorts, a sports bra, and carry around a water bottle. If you're going riding in 90+ degree heat, you're gonna wear pants, leather boots up to your knees, a long sleeved shirt, etc etc...

We wouldn't blanket our horses in several layers before asking them to perform at their best - why do we basically do the same thing for ourselves?

Peggy
Jul. 29, 2010, 01:30 AM
Agree with having the option of choker-less shirts or solid conservative-colored polos. I was at a non-USEF-rated show where they announced that no coats were allowed. That was the show where I accidentally went in the ring for a hunter round with my shirt unbuttoned at the top and no choker and a cooling thingie around my neck. Won the class too.

On the Western outfits, I was at a paint show a few weekends ago during a pretty nasty heat wave. At LAEC in Burbank. Not showing, since I don't have the wardrobe, make-up or water bra that are apparently requisite for such occasions. Yes, they went into the ring with those thick long-sleeved shirts, chaps, etc. The only concession to the heat was that they didn't wear spanx underneath.

USEF member.

Go Fish
Jul. 29, 2010, 03:02 AM
If you think about it, horse people are incredibly insane - we have our largest competitions during the hottest weather, outdoors under full sun, ride a large, hot, sweating animal, and wear pants, leather boots up to our knees (which aren't exactly known for dissipating heat), a long sleeved turtleneck (for all intents and purposes), leather gloves, a WOOL COAT in a dark color so as to absorb MORE heat from the sun, a hat that is 2 inches thick, and what are basically little earmuffs over our ears (hunter hair). There's something like six square inches of bare skin that stick out. In summer. With temps over 90. And humid. On a sweating animal. Whilst doing an athletic activity.

You make it sound like hunter riders are the only ones made to suffer...

Try this on for size:

Thick knit pants or heavy Wrangler jeans under full leather chaps. Boots. Synthetic slinky shirt with vest or jacket. Gloves. Beaver felt hat (no vents).

Then wear all that stuff in 115 degree Texas or California heat while riding a reining pattern or going round and round for 10 minutes in a rail class in the blazing sun in the middle of the afternoon. Then sitting in the line up for another 5 minutes while the judge makes up his or her mind.

We all have our crosses to bear...:lol:

scotchie
Jul. 29, 2010, 08:08 AM
I showed for three days at Chunky's show. Never been so hot in my life. I think the OPTION of polos would be nice. If you prefer the look/feel cooler in a show shirt, that's fine. But the option-great. I am huge on tradition, but as long as Mother Nature throws 100+ degree days at us, it just makes sense.

Some shows have coolers full of cold towels (NCHJA did earlier this month) and that was a wonderful touch. Chunky did have cases and cases of water available and that was greatly appreciated.

chunky munky
Jul. 29, 2010, 09:23 AM
Scotchie, we had rolls of wet wipes in the coolers at both rings. We all stay in hotels with no access to a washing machine, so wash cloths are not feasible. But I more than once placed a wet wipe on the back of several peoples necks!

DMK
Jul. 29, 2010, 09:26 AM
Not true. I own one - and it was expensive... and long sleeved.

I know, that comment - aside from the general tenor of the post - cracked me up. Looking in my closet I see only ONE ratcatcher that would be see through. The most expensive one I own. Custom fitted, Hadfields, combed french cotton, lightweight, white. Safe to say it cost about as much as 3x of precious' coolmax shirts.

Another thing would greatly amuse me is trying to see how one would twist themselves in a knot constructing rule language that allowed an open collar shirt, but NOT a polo, especially given the wide range of fabrics, button lengths and weaves used for both these days.

RockinHorse
Jul. 29, 2010, 09:37 AM
They would probably construct the rule similar to the amateur rule. Then we will have all these COTH threads about "Is this shirt legal" :lol:

2bayboys
Jul. 29, 2010, 09:38 AM
Chunky, I slept on this overnight and decided this morning that I fully support your rule change proposal, provided that the acceptable shirt options include collared, open-necked oxford-type shirts as well as polo shirts and ratcatchers. Just because I and some others are traditionalists (I've never owned a GPA or similar helmet), that doesn't mean that other riders shouldn't feel comfortable and accepted in their preferred attire.

This summer has been brutal and we should all be looking at good ways to make our sport more enjoyable.

USEF/USHJA/VHSA member.

findeight
Jul. 29, 2010, 10:01 AM
Slazenger makes a "Ladies short sleeve knit golf shirt" with collar and buttons(translate that to a Polo shirt with slightly different cut on the sleeve) in modern, light weight, wicking dry weave that does not show sweat stains or become transparent when wet-and NO visable logo. Dicks Sporting Goods carries them along with all the Pro shops in the ladies section, got them last fall on sale for about $30 each.

I also have Nike and Ping "short sleeve knit golf shirts" in solids with discreet logos, no clinging, no stains, no see through...they are 50-75 list but available on sale each fall or via close outs in various catalogues. Lands End too, same basic dry weave, wicking "short sleeve sports shirt" with no logo, conservative colors-maybe 40 at most...and on sale soon.

It is time...if Wimbledon can now allow ladies to show knees and arms in front of the Queen herself these days?? Whyever are we stuck with wool coats in the midsummer South in front of 12 people in a sand ring??

DMK
Jul. 29, 2010, 10:24 AM
They would probably construct the rule similar to the amateur rule. Then we will have all these COTH threads about "Is this shirt legal" :lol:

OK, maybe for THAT reason alone my support might waiver... :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Wait, let me step outside... Nope, still on board!

paintlady
Jul. 29, 2010, 10:57 AM
I'm not a H/J rider. I primarily limit myself to dressage these days. Still, at a dressage schooling show two weeks ago - EVERYONE had on either short sleeved riding shirts or polo shirts. The judge didn't say a thing. It's all about looking "neat" in dressage - doesn't matter if your in a jacket or short-sleeved shirt. I was extremely comfortable and thought I looked classy too.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j115/ReganAXP/Gracie/DressageShow.jpg

Last weekend, I took my mare to our first APHA breed show. They only offer H/J classes in those shows. I was shocked that EVERYONE insisted on wearing their long-sleeved ratcatcher shirts and wool show coats. So, of course I did too because I didn't want to look out of place at our first breed show. I thought I was going to die. It was over 100 degrees outside - even hotter than when I did the dressage show a week prior.

Seriously, as long as you look neat - why the hang up on fashion in the H/J world? Shouldn't we be more focused on how the horse responds to our cues as riders? I can certainly perform better when I'm not close to passing out.

Trixie
Jul. 29, 2010, 11:14 AM
The hang up on fashion is due to a hang up on tradition. Hunts are very stringent in their dress codes.

Thus, I suggest we bring back salt sack jackets. We'll need someone to improve upon them slightly so they don't lose their shape.

findeight
Jul. 29, 2010, 11:40 AM
Funny how we tub thump about tradition and ignore the carefully groomed sand ring, faux walls, hanging ferns it the standards, loud speaker system, no outside courses, no hounds, no fox, no MFH, no whippers in et al making up the modern show Hunter environment.

While standing in the heart of Dixie in July waving a totally inappropriate, possibly performance inhibiting sweat soaked coat in winter fabric and color as an untouchable "tradition".:rolleyes:

If the old Brits and Irish of 2 centuries past had hunted in that kind of climate-they would have invented different clothing.

Aven
Jul. 29, 2010, 11:52 AM
Hunts don't go over the summer months....

(lol and yes you won't see the typical hunt horse in a A rated hunter show, so if the type of horse is completely non traditional/suitable why quibble over a silly jacket?)

Sheila
Jul. 29, 2010, 11:54 AM
Paintlady- you look very presentable in your polo.

I agree with the waiving of coats with a high heat index and allowing solid polos.

My sister flew up to ride our horse in the USEF English Pleasure classes a couple of weeks ago and did wear her coat even though coats have been waived due to the heat. We were so careful about the heat for the horse we drove to the show early to check on entry numbers and when the classes would run, and then we drove back and got him to show at the last possible minute so he didn't have to stand on the trailer in the heat, we limited his warm up to watch his breathing, sweating etc, we only did three flat classes and only because they were not all 3 flat classes in a row, but, darn it, my sister was wearing that wool coat...lol..after all, its tradition!! For goodness sake, we are competing for a USEF title!! She is an adult, she can pass out on the horse, as long as she looks good competing him and the judges card is handed in..lol..kidding!!

I vote to make some new traditions!


USEF member.

Trixie
Jul. 29, 2010, 11:58 AM
Hunts don't go over the summer months....

(lol and yes you won't see the typical hunt horse in a A rated hunter show, so if the type of horse is completely non traditional/suitable why quibble over a silly jacket?)

Hunts do cub in fairly hot weather. Maybe not August in the South hot, but hot nonetheless.

Here in VA, a lot of people that horse show also hunt. Often even on the same horses.

Aven
Jul. 29, 2010, 12:08 PM
Yes but traditionally its a fall winter spring event. Hunts were never intended to be a summer (hot weather) activity. Cubbing isn't hunting...

Not saying it was due to the heat they didn't hunt over the summer, but if they had I bet there would have been traditional summer wear lol.

Even here in Ontario the local hunt club stops for summer.

So since hunting in hot weather isn't traditional, and show hunters aren't *usually suitable hunt horses what is the big fuss over making a show hunter tradition (I mean there are loads of those already...)

I am a dressage rider mostly, and occasional field hunter. I used to show hunters. But there was one comment, pages back now, where someone mentioned putting ice on their daughter's wrists etc. As a parent I don't think I would allow that. Heat stroke is no joke (esp on a moving animal) fashion should NEVER EVER come before safety of ones child.

danceronice
Jul. 29, 2010, 12:09 PM
Funny how we tub thump about tradition and ignore the carefully groomed sand ring, faux walls, hanging ferns it the standards, loud speaker system, no outside courses, no hounds, no fox, no MFH, no whippers in et al making up the modern show Hunter environment.

While standing in the heart of Dixie in July waving a totally inappropriate, possibly performance inhibiting sweat soaked coat in winter fabric and color as an untouchable "tradition".:rolleyes:

If the old Brits and Irish of 2 centuries past had hunted in that kind of climate-they would have invented different clothing.

ROFL, I was just about to say. The horses rewarded in the hunter ring by and large aren't being rewarded for what would be valuable in a field hunter.

And cubbing is not hunting nor dressed the same--a lot of huntsmen (uh, and -women, I guess) that I've heard of even take the pups out on foot in the summer. It's about training the new hounds They're not in full colors and heavyweight wool, unless they live in northern Ontario or the HM and the Master are completely bonkers. Formal season is late fall/winter, when, tradition aside, you'd be very cold in a polo most places. And we're not usually SCORCHING here, yet the hunts I've looked up seem to start actual cubbing with the members around late September, about when you're pretty sure it's started cooling down.

Basically, while I'm no expert, I can't think of a situation where you would have a hunt out in full, heavyweight formal turnout when it's 95+ and 80% humidity. Even the dogs and horses aren't going to tolerate that for long. So why is desperately important to force people into comparable kit for a horse show that doesn't even look particularly like foxhunting any more?

findeight
Jul. 29, 2010, 12:19 PM
Well, taking that tack...us upstart colonists in Dixie did refine the traditional Hunt for the climate-scrapping the jumps because of few or no fences on big spreads, inventing the Plantation Walker varieties and hunting with a shotgun. More practical.

Gents in light color linen, not wool. Ladies still not out much-in public anyway. Certainly not astride (oh, the horror).

Adaptation is possible. Unlesss you want to be consistent with the whole tradition and send us all back to sidesaddle in corsets.

2bayboys
Jul. 29, 2010, 12:40 PM
When I hunted with Bull Run, polo shirts were acceptable during cubbing season on hot days, and a message would be left on the hunt monitor stating such.

So I guess this argument has come around full circle, if polo shirts are acceptable in the hunt field as a concession to weather, then they should be OK in the show ring too for the same reason :lol:

I must add though, that on those days I wore a short-sleeved oxford shirt instead, even though the staff would be in matching red polo shirts.

DMK
Jul. 29, 2010, 12:50 PM
So I guess this argument has come around full circle, if polo shirts are acceptable in the hunt field as a concession to weather, then they should be OK in the show ring too for the same reason :lol:

Well then, I think we've settled it. I will let USEF know. ;)

PS - I would totally wear a short sleeved shirt oxford instead of a polo if I hadn't discovered all those performance fabric polos. Awesome stuff.

KnKShowmom
Jul. 29, 2010, 12:52 PM
But there was one comment, pages back now, where someone mentioned putting ice on their daughter's wrists etc. As a parent I don't think I would allow that. Heat stroke is no joke (esp on a moving animal) fashion should NEVER EVER come before safety of ones child.

Putting ice on my daughter's wrists was not to treat heat stroke - it was to make her more comfortable while she was dressed and waiting to go in the ring or after her round waiting to flat. Since she only shows eq she always wears her jacket and we do several things to insure she is comfortable during her class. She is well hydrated, watches what she is eating, stays in the shade whenever possible and doesn't put her jacket on until the last minute.

To imply that I would send my daughter into the ring if I thought her health was at risk is rediculous! She is 15 and would tell me if she was not up to riding and we would scratch the class - in the big scheme of things, it isn't that important.

Go Fish
Jul. 29, 2010, 12:55 PM
Funny how we tub thump about tradition and ignore the carefully groomed sand ring, faux walls, hanging ferns it the standards, loud speaker system, no outside courses, no hounds, no fox, no MFH, no whippers in et al making up the modern show Hunter environment.


Well, tradition is not static.

I think a show hunter, as seen today, more closely resembles it's true origins than a lot of other equine sports. We still pretty much wear the outfit that was worn centuries ago.

Perhaps jumpers don't really have a "tradition," like the hunters do.

Western events such as reining, working cow horse and cutting evolved from "traditional" use of the ranch horse.

Americans seem to have a way of taking "traditional" sports and tweaking them so the masses can enjoy them. Most people don't live on a cattle ranch, but many own and enjoy cutting horses, nevertheless.

I suppose the subject of tradition is a whole other subject for a different day. :)

Aven
Jul. 29, 2010, 01:06 PM
Putting ice on my daughter's wrists was not to treat heat stroke - it was to make her more comfortable while she was dressed and waiting to go in the ring or after her round waiting to flat. Since she only shows eq she always wears her jacket and we do several things to insure she is comfortable during her class. She is well hydrated, watches what she is eating, stays in the shade whenever possible and doesn't put her jacket on until the last minute.

To imply that I would send my daughter into the ring if I thought her health was at risk is rediculous! She is 15 and would tell me if she was not up to riding and we would scratch the class - in the big scheme of things, it isn't that important.


Thats not how it read ;)

But having had students collapse due to heat stroke.. often they don't know how hot they are.... until they are fainting, then its a little late. Why put kids in that position for fashion? I mean I could understand if it was safety related like helmets (though they are now much cooler than when I first started wearing them lol)

I run, there are all sorts of cool fabrics etc that can cover you AND keep you cool. But riding is so hung up on fashion and 'tradition' that we often shoot ourselves in the foot. I would love for nike to start making breeches lol. They could still look like breechs but be MUCH cooler!

Sorry rambling.. but it erks me that people do so much to 'look' the part that has nothing to do with anything other than maintaining an image. And this is from someone who loves the formal look of dressage. But a rider in a nice polo and beautifully turned out horse still looks neat clean and professional and will likely ride better than if they were sticky and over heating in a jacket...

findeight
Jul. 29, 2010, 01:08 PM
We still pretty much wear the outfit that was worn centuries ago.


October thru April between the shores of the North Sea and the North Atlantic. See, you agree on where it would be appropriate clothing:lol:.

The trouble with the kids is, as young to mid teens, they are really sheep and if one can handle 105f in a jacket and is fed and watered properly? The ones that cannot tolerate it, have not eaten and won't drink anything because they will not use the port o let will want to as well because they perceive it will count against them if Suzy wears the jacket and they don't.

Don't forget kids will say whatever they think the adults around them want to hear to please them, that often includes not fessing up to dizzyness, lightheadedness and wanting to puke. At home? Whine in a heartbeat. At a show in the midst of rivals and the trainer? Suck it up when they shouldn't and deny any hint of unftness.

KnKShowmom
Jul. 29, 2010, 01:16 PM
Well then I am blessed because I can read my daughter like a book and no matter where she is or what she is doing, if she doesn't feel right she will tell me -

I saw signs I didn't like once when she was schooling - got her off the horse and cooled off asap. She said she was just getting ready to tell me was beginning to feel too hot.

The funny thing is that this thread started as a discussion about kids riding hunters - I am the one questioning why this proposal doesn't seem to include the eq classes so try not to run me too far up the flag pole please.

Ghazzu
Jul. 29, 2010, 01:24 PM
I agree with the OP.

I was at a GHJA Local (but non-USEF) show this past weekend - jackets waived b/c the heat index was around 115 - where one barn had its kids riding in the hunter ring in BLACK polos, with black belt, boots, and gloves.

It looked SO much more put-together than soaking wet, dirty, rumpled show shirts. It just looked really clean-cut, super-nice and professional. And I say this in my capacity as an oldskool diva!

So kudos to that trainer (in case you're on here) - those kids looked GREAT.

And black is such a practical color to be wearing to beat the heat...

findeight
Jul. 29, 2010, 01:26 PM
Nobody is singling you out there and we are (or me anyway) primarily talking about your average 3 or 4 rounds in that 4 horse rotation plus an undersaddle in your typical Hunter day.

You are speaking of the 2 minute Eq trip with a break before a 5 minute flat and a parental unit hovering with ice and water the second she steps out.

Nonetheless, not all kids are forthcoming and many parents think they are more atuned then they are so, for safety sake, it should be clear jackets can be waived with NO penalty.

DMK
Jul. 29, 2010, 01:33 PM
And black is such a practical color to be wearing to beat the heat...

LOL, that's sort of what I thought. I was at a local show that weekend as well, but I did opt for a white polo (of course I violated so many other tenets of HP Fashionhood at that show it's a wonder the various HPs-in-attendance heads didn't explode).

hntrjmprpro45
Jul. 29, 2010, 01:46 PM
I think the problem is that whenever the dress code is excused (whether they just waive jackets or also allow polos), there will always be the die hards who wear the jackets or long sleeve. Then many of the people who may have been on the fence about it, would probably wear their jackets "just to be safe" hoping they won't be marked down. It's sort of like schooling/unrated divisions where braiding is waived. Many people opt to do the braids anyways which makes the people who don't braid feel like they are at a disadvantage. It would be different if our sport didn't involve judging presentation.

LOL, what USEF should do is create a nice, fitted polo of conservative nature that is inexpensive. That way in extreme heat, they can force everybody to wear the polo instead of jackets. Nobody would feel left out or at a disadvantage since everyone would be identical. If they were inexpensive, no one could complain about the cost. Plus, USEF could make some money at the same time. Alright, problem solved! Jk...

DMK
Jul. 29, 2010, 01:52 PM
you wait long enough and humor does come back to a thread! "USEF" and "inexpensive" in the same sentence... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You're killing me, stop already... :D :D :D

kdow
Jul. 29, 2010, 01:55 PM
I think the problem is that whenever the dress code is excused (whether they just waive jackets or also allow polos), there will always be the die hards who wear the jackets or long sleeve. Then many of the people who may have been on the fence about it, would probably wear their jackets "just to be safe" hoping they won't be marked down. It's sort of like schooling/unrated divisions where braiding is waived. Many people opt to do the braids anyways which makes the people who don't braid feel like they are at a disadvantage. It would be different if our sport didn't involve judging presentation.

This is why I think they could add a 'level' to the rules that the people running the show can impose easily where jackets are plain old Not Allowed. As much as I hate rules to make people do things, well - we have rules about helmets for juniors because of the safety issue, and this is very much a safety issue, so.

(To make life easy for the show folks, there could even be a set point at which this rule kicks into effect, based on the heat and humidity.) (While they're at it, they could add a limit to how many classes in a row a rider or horse could run in such conditions.)

Trixie
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:00 PM
Why do I have a vague feeling that would be my only $80 "luxury" polo shirt? :lol:

hntrjmprpro45
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:07 PM
you wait long enough and humor does come back to a thread! "USEF" and "inexpensive" in the same sentence... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You're killing me, stop already... :D :D :D

I figure if people can spend $$$$ on a shad for their short stirrup kid then they could certainly spend a little money on a polo!

LOL, and USEF would certainly add some fees for wearing non-USEF polos, or would you just need an affidavit verifying that you have bought one but just forgot it?

REH
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:07 PM
Did you really write this? And sign your (almost) name?
Egad.


Yes, yes, I did. Because I, (1) put animal welfare above all else and don't understand why people get so worked up over whether to wear hunt coats or not when the discussion should really be about whether it's too hot to be riding the horses themselves; and (2) *hate* the "poverty is owning a horse" mentality. Horseback riding is a luxury sport. Showing is even more of a luxury sport. Any shirt at about the $60+ pricepoint isn't going to be see-through. The only ones I've seen that have been see-through are the ones that are super inexpensive ($25-40) and if the difference between a $60 show shirt and a $25 show shirt and your child's insecurity about being see-through is going to be a breaking point, then sit out a horse show, put the money in your pocket, and buy your child a non-see through shirt. It shouldn't be that big of a deal. We're not talking about stateline v. hadfields shirt prices here.

EquitateIt
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:12 PM
I would not wear a polo even if I was allowed too. I am one of these 15 year old girls we're talking about, and one with problems showing in the heat, but I do it anyway, and always in a jacket. I've learned to deal with it. You are no more likely to overheat in a show shirt than in a polo. And why not just wear a cami or a tank top underneath your show shirt?

findeight
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:14 PM
This is why I think they could add a 'level' to the rules that the people running the show can impose easily where jackets are plain old Not Allowed.

Well, they can do that and have. At the 2 shows I referred to where coats were actually banned? They were banned, you could not go in the ring wearing one. Period.

You should have seen some of the so called "trainer people" standing yelling at the gate person while wearing shorts, shades and big straw sun hats holding reins for earlier mentioned soaking wet, dark blue jacketed, cherry faced, panting kid stuck in pool of sweat on saddle while so called "parents" watched from the shade of a distant tent sipping...er...iced tea?

Interestingly, the BNTs said not one word and sent their Juniors and Pro riders out in shirtsleeves with nary a wimper of complaint and no marks were found on any judges card deducting points for a polo shirt. Even in the Medals.

MHM
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:17 PM
you wait long enough and humor does come back to a thread! "USEF" and "inexpensive" in the same sentence... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You're killing me, stop already... :D :D :D

Yes, those two words don't even belong on the same page, never mind the same sentence.

I predict the shirts would develop like the helmets. There would be different versions ranging from $50 to $500, and there would be people who bought the one that fit them best, and other people who would only buy the most expensive one, just because.

DMK
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:25 PM
I think hj45is on to something with the fees. Office fee, Medic fee, D&M fee, non sanctioned polo fee... check, check, check, check. And I do mean "check" but not exclusively in the affirmative sense of the word. :D

nlk
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:26 PM
We were at a show this past weekend. The announced on Friday that jackets were optional any appropriate shirt with a collar (polos but no spaghetti straps etc) was permitted.

Now I had warned my girls before hand to bring a polo with no barn logo and solid in color. Personally I get mine from JC Pennys for buy one get one for $.88.

Anyways, I was impressed that 99% of the trainers (whom are A and AA trainers) had their riders in a polo. and only 1-2 in actual jackets and a handful in long sleeved hunt shirts. On Sunday half way through the day the waived jackets although the day was much less humid. On that day my kids did ride in Jackets but it was their choice as NO ONE was in danger of over heating.

I limited warm up posted at the end so they had to spend as little time as possible on a horse in the heat.

Also on the horse side of things. I limited my riders to 5 classes on Saturday. Of those not one was over 2'9" and at least one was a flat class.

I know of at least on trainer who had a horse or two in at least 3 divisions, and she's one of the upper level ones!

paintlady
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:27 PM
Yes, yes, I did. Because I, (1) put animal welfare above all else and don't understand why people get so worked up over whether to wear hunt coats or not when the discussion should really be about whether it's too hot to be riding the horses themselves

Well, I did take my horse to a show in 100 degree temps. My mare got to ride in a well-ventilated trailer. So well-ventilated, in fact, that she didn't even break a sweat on the 2.5 hour drive there or back. I waited until the last possible minute to tack-up - foregoing any warm-up - just to keep her comfortable. Plus, her legs and chest were sponged down everytime we had a break and a full body sponge when untacked. Not to mention the constant offering of water and even watermelon to keep her hydrated.

Me, on the other hand, was sweating like a pig before even putting on my show clothes. Then, got to ride around in long sleeves, wool coat, tall black boots and a black helmet just because it's "tradition". Every minute not on my horse was occupied caring for my horse. Then, in a puddle of sweat - got to drive my cool and comfortable mare back home, give her yet another bath and unhook the trailer before I could tend to myself.

Who had the better deal here?

findeight
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:32 PM
I would not wear a polo even if I was allowed too. I am one of these 15 year old girls we're talking about, and one with problems showing in the heat, but I do it anyway, and always in a jacket. I've learned to deal with it. You are no more likely to overheat in a show shirt than in a polo. And why not just wear a cami or a tank top underneath your show shirt?

I rest my point, it makes you sick and gives you problems healthwise but you show in the jacket anyway. Because it is "the way it is done". And, child, alot of older teens and certainly most adults need more then a cami or tank under a show shirt.:eek:

findeight
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:40 PM
Because I... put animal welfare above all else and don't understand why people get so worked up over whether to wear hunt coats or not when the discussion should really be about whether it's too hot to be riding the horses themselves.

That analogy only works if we are jumping the horses around in a Baker blanket with hood allowing them to get soaked in sweat that cannot evaporate and cool them.

Last time I looked, horses were mostly naked and the sweat easily worked as designed. Us, on the other hand, in suitable undergarments, shirt and that form fitting jacket ???? NOT.

kdow
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:41 PM
Well, they can do that and have. At the 2 shows I referred to where coats were actually banned? They were banned, you could not go in the ring wearing one. Period.

I was under the impression that was a show decision, though, rather than an actual rule - I'm thinking of something which would be an actual written-in-stone rule - no jackets in the ring over X effective temperature (so humidity is taken into consideration in addition to the actual air temperature.)

The purpose would mostly be just to make life easier for the folks running the show, who wouldn't have to worry as much about how the decision to ban jackets would influence people wanting to attend the show in the future, because hey! It's the rules!

I think at least it would send the message that the governing bodies are concerned about the health and safety of competitors, and that heat exhaustion/stroke is a very real and major problem.

MHM
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:44 PM
Who had the better deal here?

You did, because it was your choice.

Most horses would probably be happier to stay in the stall at home, munching hay, in any weather.

Just saying.

paintlady
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:49 PM
You did, because it was your choice.

Most horses would probably be happier to stay in the stall at home, munching hay, in any weather.

Just saying.

So, guess we should never ride or show then. I'm sure my mare would agree with you. ;)

That being said, I'm pretty sure she stayed a lot cooler with the air blowing on her in the trailer as we were cruising at 55 mph (which was the case for most of the drive), routine sponging, eating watermelon, etc. than she would have inside her stall or in the pasture when it was 100+ degrees outside. That little box fan outside her stall can only do so much.

findeight
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:50 PM
You did, because it was your choice.

Most horses would probably be happier to stay in the stall at home, munching hay, in any weather.

Just saying.

Well, yeah, mine would like that if it was 70f too.

MHM
Jul. 29, 2010, 02:53 PM
So, guess we should never ride or show then. I'm sure my mare would agree with you. ;)

That being said, I'm pretty sure she stayed a lot cooler with the air blowing on her in the trailer as we were cruising at 55 mph (which was the case for most of the drive), routine sponging, eating watermelon, etc. than she would have inside her stall or in the pasture.

No, I'm just saying that we should always do everything possible to keep our horses happy and comfortable when we drag them somewhere for our own entertainment, since it's our choice, not the horse's choice.

REH
Jul. 29, 2010, 03:01 PM
That analogy only works if we are jumping the horses around in a Baker blanket with hood allowing them to get soaked in sweat that cannot evaporate and cool them.

Last time I looked, horses were mostly naked and the sweat easily worked as designed. Us, on the other hand, in suitable undergarments, shirt and that form fitting jacket ???? NOT.

Disagree.

if baker blankets were the equivalent, then it wouldn't be polos v. show shirts: it would be down jackets v. wool sweaters. A thin coolmax show shirt and a jog bra is hardly a baker blanket and last I checked, coolmax and performance undergarments wick. And, they're still wearing tack and a rider that wasn't how god made them.;)

gottagrey
Jul. 29, 2010, 03:12 PM
I just love the trainers that are standing ringside in the shade in their short shorts, tank tops insisting that 10 y/o Sally needs to put on her wool jacket (okay woolBLEND jacket) if she wants to get a ribbon even if they did excuse jackets. Note:to trainers: if you insist your kids wear their coats, I think you need to wear the same gear) Note to Parents: If your trainer insists 10 y/o Sally wear a jacket in 105 degree heat (remember the rings are MUCH hotter)and she's beet red in the face, vomits off the side of her well behaved pony... thank your trainer for it and stand up and be a parent the next time trainer says to wear jacket - cause it's only for a few minutes.

I think we have to remember that the times they are a changing... while I agree w/keeping the tradition of hunt coats etc; I think it's also good to take things like weather and health into consideration. One of my friends insists she as a kid always wore a jacket and kids today are just sissies because of A/C, however, when you look at old movies and photos of her as kid funny because she's wearing SLEEVELESS ratcatchers in some pics and in some movies no one's wearing a jacket - all white shirts - long sleeved, short sleeved, and even sleeveless. Back then they really didn't wear jackets because they were the heavier melton weight for hunting and cooler weather and if they did wear jackets they were the lighter linen or cotton (I've seen some of those heinous madras show jackets too)... Also if you consider the "tradition" of foxhunting as somewhat of a gage for show attire, then one has to remember that they don't fox hunt during the hot summer months and for that matter many hunts allow polo shirts for cubbing on hot days...

Where's the petition here's my X

Madeline
Jul. 29, 2010, 03:12 PM
Yes, yes, I did. Because I, (1) put animal welfare above all else and don't understand why people get so worked up over whether to wear hunt coats or not when the discussion should really be about whether it's too hot to be riding the horses themselves; and (2) *hate* the "poverty is owning a horse" mentality. Horseback riding is a luxury sport. Showing is even more of a luxury sport. Any shirt at about the $60+ pricepoint isn't going to be see-through. The only ones I've seen that have been see-through are the ones that are super inexpensive ($25-40) and if the difference between a $60 show shirt and a $25 show shirt and your child's insecurity about being see-through is going to be a breaking point, then sit out a horse show, put the money in your pocket, and buy your child a non-see through shirt. It shouldn't be that big of a deal. We're not talking about stateline v. hadfields shirt prices here.

And you actually wrote that as a defense? Egad again...

MDPONYMOM
Jul. 29, 2010, 03:39 PM
OK, time to put some humor back in this thread - Chunky, my daughter did wear a polo in a hunter class at your show last weekend - she wore it in "The Hunt Team" class. Is this what you had in mind for the rule change?

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1026939&id=1575338861

Madeline
Jul. 29, 2010, 04:08 PM
Am I the only old-fart traditionalist that thinks that it is sad that the class that gets turned into a cutesy fun costume class is the hunt teams? Used to be the hunt teams were for qualified working hunters, in full appointments, ridden by hunt members over a full sized outside course. Winning required pace, accuracy, even spacing and getting everyone up to jump the last fence head and head. Now it's little kids in costumes jumping 18". Making a mockery of the origins of the whole sport...

madeline
Grumpy as she had to unload hay instead of riding this AM.

DMK
Jul. 29, 2010, 04:15 PM
yeah, madeline, I think you are grumpy - this last week there was a local charity show with a pairs costume class, and everyone had a lot of fun. One group came as Lindsey Lohan with the other one being a cop chasing her and another pair of kids came on the CUTEST grey pony painted as a zebra with the other kid on a brown pony dressed as a lion. Too cute and everyone had a great time. I'm sure even our hunt would have approved. ;)

MDPONYMOM
Jul. 29, 2010, 04:20 PM
Wow, yeah a little grumpy. This particular team did have pace, accuracy, even spacing and nailed the last jump head by head by head. It was a nice thing to do at the end of a HOT show, however the kids did a very professional job.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1026942&id=1575338861

Janet
Jul. 29, 2010, 04:43 PM
The hang up on fashion is due to a hang up on tradition. Hunts are very stringent in their dress codes.

And MOST of the outfits worn in the Hunter division at a USEF show would NOT pass msuter at a hunt with a traditional dress code.

Black field boots, to start with, would be an utter travesty under the traditional dress code. As would jackets in colors other than black and scarlet/pink (plus tweed for cubbing).

And chokers, non-white shirts, britches in colors other than white and canary.

So don't use "fox hunting tradition" as the justification for wearing black field boots, puke green britches, a lavendar shirt and choker, and a brown double vented jacket.

War Admiral
Jul. 29, 2010, 05:03 PM
So don't use "fox hunting tradition" as the justification for wearing black field boots, puke green britches, a lavendar shirt and choker, and a brown double vented jacket.

Word. Not to mention the pink linings! :eek::lol:

I don't think Madeline was intending to snark at the kidlets whose pic was posted here. Not to put words in her mouth, but I feel the same way she does about Hunt Teams at the big rated "heritage" shows, where it seems like Hunt Teams have become some kind of circus sideshow to what's now perceived as the "real deal". (Ahem.)

But back on track - soooo, are we actually going to DO anything about a rule change proposal?? Seems to me like there's enough support to at least throw it out there for the general USEF membership to comment on...???

Trixie
Jul. 29, 2010, 05:22 PM
And chokers, non-white shirts, britches in colors other than white and canary.

So don't use "fox hunting tradition" as the justification for wearing black field boots, puke green britches, a lavendar shirt and choker, and a brown double vented jacket.

I thought white breeches were inappropriate on a lady rider.

I have shown my horse at an informal schooling show in brown boots, tan or rust breeches, and a subtle plaid (though not tweed as I don't have one that fits) hunt coat. I've cubbed in the same.

That being said, my point was merely that since hunts are pretty formal and stringent in dress codes, that's why horse shows tend to be the same. Granted, acceptable in the show ring and acceptable in the hunt field these days are two different things - though, based upon the same sort of outfit.

Now, if I could get away with the pink tutu thing in the hunt teams picture, I totally would. :lol:

janedoe726
Jul. 29, 2010, 05:26 PM
Funny how we tub thump about tradition and ignore the carefully groomed sand ring, faux walls, hanging ferns it the standards, loud speaker system, no outside courses, no hounds, no fox, no MFH, no whippers in et al making up the modern show Hunter environment.

While standing in the heart of Dixie in July waving a totally inappropriate, possibly performance inhibiting sweat soaked coat in winter fabric and color as an untouchable "tradition".:rolleyes:

If the old Brits and Irish of 2 centuries past had hunted in that kind of climate-they would have invented different clothing.

Findeight, I <3 you!

EquitateIt
Jul. 29, 2010, 06:15 PM
I rest my point, it makes you sick and gives you problems healthwise but you show in the jacket anyway. Because it is "the way it is done". And, child, alot of older teens and certainly most adults need more then a cami or tank under a show shirt.:eek:

Yes, I do show that way because it's the way it's done, but I'm fine. I don't overheat anymore because I'm smart about it (and I never did get to the point of passing out). If it really was to the point where I was running a major health risk - then I'd be wearing a just show shirt. Anyone who allows themselves to pass out simply isn't taking care of their body. If it's cool enough for your horse to be exercising, you won't pass out in a show shirt. Polos simply aren't necessary.

Oh, and I meant a cami over a bra. ;) It soaks up the sweat. Everyone should certainly be wearing a bra under a tank top :eek:

SmileItLooksGoodOnYou
Jul. 29, 2010, 07:00 PM
I think we would do better to talk to the industry folks who make the shirts and jackets we wear. Wool is traditional and all, but there are so many other fabrics out there there has to be something that has a similar weight to a really fine light wool and would be much cooler. And I'm sure something other than silk could be used to line these jackets. (I know Ariat makes a jacket with a mesh lining in the shoulder area...)

And could there be a fabric out there that could be used to make a shirt that is cool and light without getting transparent when wet? Perhaps something that's breathable and looks nearly the same wet or dry? Maybe it wouldn't be available in white, but if one could acquire, say a blue, pink or yellow shirt that didn't show where your sports bra was when you got sweaty would people buy it? Sure! And for the $100-130 that an Essex shirt costs I'm sure a shirt like this could be sold at that price point, especially if it was nicely tailored.

I think we should also re-evaluate the polyester breeches that so many are so fond of to show in. The tailored sportsman 2 and 4 way breeches are HOT! Good lord. I have cotton TS that I bought because they were cheaper and I could machine wash them. Best decision I ever made. And as long as one wears the correct underwear they shouldn't sweat through enough to show sweat in their breeches. (I live in Houston, sweat buckets, ride multiple horses a day outdoors in july and august and even I don't get "SWAC" (sweaty *** crack) in cotton TS or cotton trophys because I wear good undies.

I realize that cooler fabrics might not have exactly the same look, but if one could be drastically more comfortable AND wear a traditional appearing outfit at the same time who would argue that their jacket wasn't real wool?

There's not much more we can do to make helmets cooler, and tall boots are tall boots, I haven't seen a "modern" design that would be at all cooler that still looks ANYTHING like a traditional field boot. (When something comes out I'll be the first to try it.)

Madeline
Jul. 29, 2010, 07:32 PM
... and tall boots are tall boots, I haven't seen a "modern" design that would be at all cooler that still looks ANYTHING like a traditional field boot.

Didn't someone earlier in this thread say that "USEF" and "affordable" don't belong in the same sentence? Can't we say the same about "traditional" and "field boot?" ( at least about black ones, which are the only knid that are readily available...)

RockinHorse
Jul. 29, 2010, 07:41 PM
Didn't someone earlier in this thread say that "USEF" and "affordable" don't belong in the same sentence? Can't we say the same about "traditional" and "field boot?" ( at least about black ones, which are the only knid that are readily available...)

:D:D:D

hntrjmprpro45
Jul. 29, 2010, 09:08 PM
Well according to my husband, you can't say "horse" and "inexpensive" in the same sentence either.

Lucassb
Jul. 29, 2010, 09:23 PM
I think we would do better to talk to the industry folks who make the shirts and jackets we wear. Wool is traditional and all, but there are so many other fabrics out there there has to be something that has a similar weight to a really fine light wool and would be much cooler. And I'm sure something other than silk could be used to line these jackets. (I know Ariat makes a jacket with a mesh lining in the shoulder area...)

And could there be a fabric out there that could be used to make a shirt that is cool and light without getting transparent when wet? Perhaps something that's breathable and looks nearly the same wet or dry? Maybe it wouldn't be available in white, but if one could acquire, say a blue, pink or yellow shirt that didn't show where your sports bra was when you got sweaty would people buy it? Sure! And for the $100-130 that an Essex shirt costs I'm sure a shirt like this could be sold at that price point, especially if it was nicely tailored.


There *are* some technical fabrics now - the shirt I posted a link to a page or two ago is a waffle-weave coolmax (in white!) that doesn't become see-through when wet, and in fact, it dries so quickly that it doesn't stay wet for more than a few minutes anyway.

Also, several of the jacket manufacturers make hunt coats in technical fabrics now. I have one that is made by Pikeur that is much more comfortable than my traditional wool coats and is pretty "normal" in appearance - plain navy, traditional cut, etc. It is my go-to coat all summer, and I show in the equitation. Equine Couture also makes a very inexpensive coat that is mesh lined and VERY cool. I don't love the fabric but there is no doubt that on a hot day, it would be preferable to any sort of wool.

J. Turner
Jul. 29, 2010, 09:29 PM
So the rule changes for the hunter riders to be allowed to show in polos but what about the Eq riders - can't quite picture that happening.

Was at ODHS this weekend and did see one rider in the Childrens Medal go without a jacket but she was the only one -did get the call back to flat but did not see how she pinned.

When its that hot, DD warms up without her jacket and puts it on just before she goes in the ring. She has plenty to drink before she goes in and one waiting for her when she comes out. I will have a baggy with ice to put on her wrists/back of her neck and when she is done she gets the jacket off asap and cools off while I take care of her horse. It isn't fun but we get through it.


My friend's daughter was one of the only ones (that I saw via pictures) in the lg ponies/green ponies wearing a jacket. She said it was 106 one day.

MHM
Jul. 29, 2010, 09:31 PM
Well according to my husband, you can't say "horse" and "inexpensive" in the same sentence either.

Sure you can:

"There's no such thing as an inexpensive horse!"

See? The words are even right next to each other. :D

LeeB10
Jul. 29, 2010, 09:42 PM
Plus, are y'all ever watching the jumpers go? Even we wear our and coats in the heat for classics. Out of the 6 classics that went over the past two weeks jackets were waived exactly twice (and many people wore jackets then anyway) and were mandatory the other four times. They sent riders wearing polos back to the barn to fetch formal show attire for the classics. Temperatures were 90s-100s with high humidity.


My 16 year old daughter does the jumpers and she would never do a classic without minimally a long sleeved white shirt.... NOT a polo. Actually I've never seen her do a classic without a coat and the long sleeved shirt.. I don't even think I've ever seen a Grand Prix where the jackets were set aside. The cool max shirts are designed to stay dry and not all jackets are made of wool. If you have a cami underneath your shirt then you will not be having a wet t-shirt contest. White cool max will also keep you cooler by keeping the sun directly off your skin.

danceronice
Jul. 29, 2010, 11:05 PM
For those saying how easy it is to prevent yourself getting heatstroke or heat prostration, not necessarily. A big part of it is you simply aren't rational. I have extensive experience with being critically ill and a few weeks ago I ended up with heat prostration while riding. (My horse was fine. But then he's spent the majority of his life in Florida and what's terribly humid around here doesn't seem to bother him.) In retrospect I can see where I was already symptomatic while riding, but it wasn't until I got off and nearly blacked out that I had to admit it wasn't just 'feeling hot.' Luckily for me my BO was home and out in her backyard with two of her daughters, watching the grandkids in the pool (which they threatened later to throw me in) and could hear me when I called for help. Extra luckily, she's an RN. I've been sick enough before to keel over (blood disorder) and then, too, when it was BAD, a reasonable person would have said "You should know you're sick." But when it's that bad, you often aren't able to judge yourself.

RND
Jul. 29, 2010, 11:22 PM
I'm with Madeline here. The pony hunt teams at Devon today make me want to cry.

kdow
Jul. 29, 2010, 11:38 PM
For those saying how easy it is to prevent yourself getting heatstroke or heat prostration, not necessarily. A big part of it is you simply aren't rational.

This is the problem EXACTLY. The person I knew recently who had major heat problems is an RN. She's TREATED people with heat exhaustion. She still couldn't recognize the signs in herself and once it had kicked in badly, she wasn't really able to 'problem solve' to figure out what to do about it.

Fun Size
Jul. 29, 2010, 11:53 PM
Can I agree with both sides? :D

I would LOVE to be able to wear a nice polo in hunters or eq, if the rule should be changed to that. I agree that the polo would look more put together than the show shirt with collar off and sleeves rolled up.

I also think that it is possible to show in just a shirt that isn't see through.

Also, Grand Prix and Pikeur have made an effort to come up with some new hunt coat fabrics (the soft shell) to make showing in the heat more bearable.

For me, if the heat index was over 100 I wouldn't be showing, because neither I nor my horse tolerate heat very well :D

Across Sicily
Jul. 30, 2010, 12:23 AM
Just a little FYI to all of you who are nattering on about wearing a cami under those nice little Coolmax shirts... If you wear a cami under it, it won't do its job. Instead, you'll be riding around in a nice, wet cami. ;)

kdow
Jul. 30, 2010, 01:36 AM
Just a little FYI to all of you who are nattering on about wearing a cami under those nice little Coolmax shirts... If you wear a cami under it, it won't do its job. Instead, you'll be riding around in a nice, wet cami. ;)

I can't imagine adding another layer, anyway. The b-fairy was rather generous to me, so any bra I'd be wearing for equestrian activities is not going to be a lightweight thin thing to start with, and that's normally bad enough under a shirt WITHOUT adding another layer over my whole torso to hold in body heat and sweat. (And no, there do not exist camis or tank tops with built in bras that would be up for the job of replacing said bra. Not even the underwired ones.)

M. O'Connor
Jul. 30, 2010, 08:55 AM
Thanks chickens :-) I have also heard from photographers that people will purchase a photo in a polo, wet riding shirt? Not so much.
Really we are talking about July and August in most locales. We are not trying to change tradition, just improving the look and keeping people healthy and comfortable.

What is the deadline for proposing a regular rule change? Or an extraordinary one?

I think your suggestion has plenty of merit, and that it would be seriously considered. While the rule won't change only because of a long thread on COTH, it would very likely do so if it's submitted for consideration.

Tradition is well and good, but we are going to have to adapt in order to be safe and comfortable in warmer conditions.

Then again--I do think there needs to be a discussion about what conditions are too extrememe to compete in. When do we say 'enough is enough?'

vxf111
Jul. 30, 2010, 09:39 AM
Maybe it's just me, but I find a long sleeved, non-skintight coolmax show shirt more comfortable in the heat than a polo shirt. I feel like the long sleeves kind of keeps the sweat "in" rather than letting it be on my arm and that the coolmax fabric breathes better than a cotton or cotton blend polo?! I always feel really comfortable in a nice, loose fitting show shirt. I hate the feel of damp knit fabric-- I feel must more comfortable in a coolmax woven.

Now, allow us to open the top button and skip the collar? I am all for that.

PineTreeFarm
Jul. 30, 2010, 10:00 AM
What is the deadline for proposing a regular rule change? Or an extraordinary one?

I think your suggestion has plenty of merit, and that it would be seriously considered. While the rule won't change only because of a long thread on COTH, it would very likely do so if it's submitted for consideration.

Tradition is well and good, but we are going to have to adapt in order to be safe and comfortable in warmer conditions.

Then again--I do think there needs to be a discussion about what conditions are too extrememe to compete in. When do we say 'enough is enough?'

Rule change deadline for an individual was June 1st.
Committees and Affiliated Entities have till Sept 1.
So CM sell this idea rather quickly to USHJA or maybe the USEF Competition Management Group.
Extraordinary rule changes seem to happen every month with or without notice.

After years of suffering in the heat I'd welcome any sensible proposal to waive jackets. While I personally don't like the idea of polo shirts in the hunters many will find it acceptable so might as well allow it.

Yes, M there needs to be a limit. What's the heat index that triggers no jackets? Or are there other weather conditions that should have a no jacket rule?

Janet
Jul. 30, 2010, 10:13 AM
You should focus on the USHJA, No matter who sponsors the rule change, it is unlikely to get approved unless they support it.

paintlady
Jul. 30, 2010, 10:19 AM
Maybe it's just me, but I find a long sleeved, non-skintight coolmax show shirt more comfortable in the heat than a polo shirt. I feel like the long sleeves kind of keeps the sweat "in" rather than letting it be on my arm and that the coolmax fabric breathes better than a cotton or cotton blend polo?! I always feel really comfortable in a nice, loose fitting show shirt. I hate the feel of damp knit fabric-- I feel must more comfortable in a coolmax woven.


You can easily find coolmax polo shirts...

findeight
Jul. 30, 2010, 12:06 PM
How about from June 1 to September 1 when the NWS predicts the heat index is expected to hit 100f, the show management automatically waives jackets in all classes with specific wording that there is NO penalty.

If the local authorites declare a heat emergency and the heat index goes above 110f-no jackets permitted.

That ought to give the specifics that still have some shows not waiving them until somebody pukes after their round or waiving them and having an 80f day.

Lets get that first. Worry about an open collar and polos later. Right now, we lack the definition of "when conditions warrant" or just what constitutes "extreme heat".

Show management can still retain the right to adjust outside these guidlines due to special circumstances.

Add on something like the Dressage people have about the conservative polos-and they already have approved that so it might help. But don't be surprised if that part is a no go, at least now. But lets get some specific guidlines in there for management.

danceronice
Jul. 30, 2010, 12:10 PM
How about from June 1 to September 1 when the NWS predicts the heat index is expected to hit 100f, the show management automatically waives jackets in all classes with specific wording that there is NO penalty.

If the local authorites declare a heat emergency and the heat index goes above 110f-no jackets permitted..

Uh, at that point, I don't know about anyone else but I'm going home. Even Mr. I'm-From-Florida-What-Heat Horse would probably keel over in that.

Janet
Jul. 30, 2010, 12:19 PM
The eventing rules say


10. EXTREME WEATHER. At temperatures above 85°F, a heat index above 85°, or at the
discretion of the Ground Jury or the Organizer, competitors will be permitted to compete
without jackets, in the dressage and/or jumping tests.

vxf111
Jul. 30, 2010, 12:22 PM
You can easily find coolmax polo shirts...

I realize that. I guess what I am saying is that since I find the coolmax show shirts comfortable, and they're traditional-- I don't see a personal need to wear a polo-- coolmax or otherwise. I also like the long sleeves, I feel like it keeps the sweat in there with the pits and contains the spread ;) I also appreciate the sun protection for my arms.

Maybe I am a freak, even at home I'll school in long sleeves in hot weather so long as the shirt is loose fitting, light, and breathable.

gottagrey
Jul. 30, 2010, 12:32 PM
Ariat and some of the others have nice pseudo ratcatchers that many dressage and event riders wear for dressage tests. I gave one of the more colorful ones to my trainer for showing jumpers.. I think they look good as some have "princess" seaming which is pretty flattering for most figures and makes for a nice 'turn-out" they're in every catalog. I do agree that some sort of standardized rule based on X temperature/heat index coats will be excused for all classes; and in some cases one might consider making it mandatory for children's and possibly Jr. Classes. As noted in some of the posts even an RN wasn't aware she was suffering from heat - it's even more difficult for kids to realize they might be suffering - combined that with wanting to do what's right by their trainer..

findeight
Jul. 30, 2010, 12:47 PM
Uh, at that point, I don't know about anyone else but I'm going home. Even Mr. I'm-From-Florida-What-Heat Horse would probably keel over in that.

Hey, it's just an arbitrary starting point, have to start somewhere. But that is what conditions were at the shows I was at and am citing as examples. We could certainly propose going along with what the Eventers have-and thank you Janet for mentioning that for those of us who are not Eventers.

But we need some specifics instead of depending on whatever theory the show manager has about when to waive. And waiving coats would also tell us we need to start tending to the horse's needs as well-like an order of go to avoid too much time in a warm up ring and more available water sources so the horse can get sponged off between rounds if needed instead of waiting to go back to the stall after those 3 rounds and the hack. And more emphasis on providing some kind of SHADE.

It looks like both Dressage and Eventing are way ahead of us in admitting we are not in Northern Europe where most of these traditional dress codes were hatched.

Far as the suggestion we are sissies too dependent on A/C and such. Back when, we died around age 60, if we were lucky. There are reasons we live so much longer today, not having to react to severe climate might be one of them. Tough is one thing, uneeded stress on the body may be quite another.

hijumpin1
Jul. 30, 2010, 01:03 PM
If you want relaxed and informal, wear a polo shirt at a schooling show.

I like to keep the A rated shows special. I WANT to wear my sunday best at the big shows. If you have a quality shirt that fits right with a nude tone bra, your'e covered up. I've seen just as many too tight polos revealing belly rolls. That's not modesty.

Teenager who are too modest to show in a show shirt sounds a little strange. Most teens don't have any issue with wearing skin tight tees and camis with painted on skinny jeans:lol:. And at the mall!! Even with boys prowling around!

RugBug
Jul. 30, 2010, 01:08 PM
Haven't been a USEF member for a bazillion years. Rated shows are just too damn expensive for me (and too far away). And admittedly I don't have to often deal with extreme heat and humidity is even rarer. We do get a few weeks of 90s and into 100s each year...but that's it. If we go over the "grade", however, it's regular in the triple digits during the summer/fall. Grade is 20 minutes away.

It wouldn't bother me if people wore a polo in the hunter if jackets were waived...but I probably wouldn't do it. Regular polos are MUCH hotter than a nice cotton ratcatcher. Sure, there are performance fabric polos, but there are also performance fabric ratcatchers. Long cotton sleeves are also cooler than short sleeves, so...

But if someone else wanted to wear a polo, more power to them.

(I had to :lol: at the comment about the riders in black polos. Seriously? Who in their right mind would think that's any cooler than a ratcatcher?)

trubandloki
Jul. 30, 2010, 01:29 PM
Not a member (horse not sound again) so my opinion does not count I suppose.

I just miss why so many people think a polo does not look sweaty on a 100deg day? A polo or a ratcatcher, either is going to be stuck to you and totally unattractive.

DMK
Jul. 30, 2010, 02:07 PM
Hey, it's just an arbitrary starting point, have to start somewhere.

I'd say KISS works well here. Propose/adopt the dressage language, and not reinvent the wheel.

Janet
Jul. 30, 2010, 02:27 PM
I'd say KISS works well here. Propose/adopt the dressage language, and not reinvent the wheel.

Just to clarify-

The Dressage language says "in extreme heat" without defining "extreme".

The Eventing language says "above 85°F, a heat index above 85°, ..."

RugBug
Jul. 30, 2010, 02:31 PM
Just to clarify-

The Dressage language says "in extreme heat" without defining "extreme".

The Eventing language says "above 85°F, a heat index above 85°, ..."

I'd hate to see coats waived in an "above 85°F" without there also being the high heat index. I'd like to see an "and", not a comma. :D 85°F is nothing here in our dry heat. It's practically a perfect day.

DMK
Jul. 30, 2010, 02:48 PM
yes, I think the dressage language works well - what is extreme up north is kind of like a nice summer day down here. I think if show managers have the flexibility they currently have, they will do OK.

It's not like the issue is one of getting show managers to comply with the current rule (waive jackets), it's more a case of the current rule not going far enough as it relates to open/versus closed collar.

babygreenqueen
Jul. 30, 2010, 02:52 PM
as a heat sickness sufferer, i often wonder why i prefer to sweat with my show coat. i personally dont feel dressed in a polo doing hunters or eq. i also dont like the look of polo wraps in eq, it also bothers me that many shows discourage braiding.

it is a traditional sport and many years ago we did not have the luxury of hi tech coolmax fabrics etc. what did everyone do way back then in wool melton coats ??

there are hi tech fabrics nowadays that offer relief in the heat.
the new helmets have really made a difference for me. i ride in a GPA pro with removable inserts.

a nice white oxford long sleeve shirt would do ok for me i suppose in lieu of a choker and jacket. but i prefer to wear my
coat as well as gloves in the show ring.

old woman likes old timey tradition LOL

Janet
Jul. 30, 2010, 03:09 PM
it is a traditional sport and many years ago we did not have the luxury of hi tech coolmax fabrics etc. what did everyone do way back then in wool melton coats ??

They showed in the summer in Virginia in lightweight linen jackets- just look at the old pictures from Warrenton and Upperville.

And I think they didn't show much at all in the south in July and August.

Lucassb
Jul. 30, 2010, 03:20 PM
I realize that. I guess what I am saying is that since I find the coolmax show shirts comfortable, and they're traditional-- I don't see a personal need to wear a polo-- coolmax or otherwise. I also like the long sleeves, I feel like it keeps the sweat in there with the pits and contains the spread ;) I also appreciate the sun protection for my arms.

Maybe I am a freak, even at home I'll school in long sleeves in hot weather so long as the shirt is loose fitting, light, and breathable.

Not a freak at all... I totally agree with you and find it far more comfortable to wear a looser fitting long sleeve coolmax show shirt.

Luckily I imagine that even if a polo shirt rule passes, we will still have the option to wear a show shirt. At least I sure hope so. The thought of a rider in a polo in the hunters (or eq) to me seems tacky, tacky, tacky.

That said, I TOTALLY recommend the new soft shell hunt coats. Yes, they're pricey but OMG, what a difference in comfort compared to wool. And they are traditional in cut and color - mine is plain navy.

DMK
Jul. 30, 2010, 04:01 PM
Luckily I imagine that even if a polo shirt rule passes, we will still have the option to wear a show shirt. At least I sure hope so. The thought of a rider in a polo in the hunters (or eq) to me seems tacky, tacky, tacky.

It really seems quite a stretch to imagine them banning show shirts (LOL without there even being a tangible proposal and all, but its certainly not what anyone here is suggesting). But the idea being knocked about is to allow open collars/no chokers when jackets are waived. After that, it would be sort of silly to twist yourself into a rule crafting pretzel trying to prohibit "polos" (whatever that means) but allow ratcatchers and other shirts with collars (whatever that means).

I'm guessing if you started seeing people in open collar ratcatchers with short sleeves versus a nice shirt that didn't happen to button all the way down, both in appropriate colors, you might not notice which one was which.

findeight
Jul. 30, 2010, 04:02 PM
... what did everyone do way back then in wool melton coats ??



They joined the local Hunt Club and chased the hounds in winter, showed a little fall and spring and turned the horse out from June to September.

And Hunters are in no way shape or form traditional in any locale that gets the kind of midsummer heat we are talking about. The sport getting more accessible has also meant they exsist in places with totally unsuitable climates and few or no actual, recognized Hunts...certainly those do not Hunt midsummer in melton coats...or at all.

The tradition of jumping around in wool coats mid summer actually was never there but an oddity created by the show ring and the sport branching out to areas where it never exsisted before.

Talking about a narrow window and definition of extreme conditions not throwing the whole kit and kaboodle to the dogs, so to speak.

Madeline
Jul. 30, 2010, 04:13 PM
it is a traditional sport and many years ago we did not have the luxury of hi tech coolmax fabrics etc. what did everyone do way back then in wool melton coats ??



Actually, back in the '60's, you only saw the dark coats indoors or under lights. Normal hot weather wear was off white linen, madras(oh the horror), seersucker. Back then we were smart enough to not wear heavy (or light) wool coats in teh summer.

tidy rabbit
Jul. 30, 2010, 04:35 PM
Just cause I'm a total dork and this might make you all laugh on a Friday afternoon....

I read the title of this thread as

"Waving Coats for Hunters at USEF Shows"

I thought, "Well that's odd, is that what they're doing now to celebrate a good round at the Derbys?"

I need to start getting more sleep.

gallupgirl
Jul. 31, 2010, 07:29 PM
I wouldn't support polo shirts in the hunters. Shoot, I wear my coat in the ring even if coats are waived. It's a matter of tradition and respect for the sport, for me. I can suffer for the two minutes it takes to get around the course.

Thanks Go Fish! I agree 100%

babygreenqueen
Jul. 31, 2010, 07:56 PM
agree with GO FISH !

yes anyone can handle wearing a coat for 2 -3 minutes. braiding and dressing appropriately is respectful to the sport and the judge.
and i cant believe that lazy turn out for rider/horse does not get 'noticed' by judges.i knew a judge that gave extra points for rider going first on course.....that first impression of professional elegance in the hunters is very important.

someone else said......if you cant handle the costume, dont get on stage !

and yes i now recall having a pale blue linen summer coat with canary breeches with buttons, brown field boots ....and i think a paisley choker....HA HA

Aven
Jul. 31, 2010, 09:37 PM
See and to me it seems disrespectful not to treat the sport as a sport. But to each their own.

kdow
Jul. 31, 2010, 09:54 PM
See and to me it seems disrespectful not to treat the sport as a sport. But to each their own.

Also, when it's all about tradition and yet the traditional activity on which it is ostensibly based, fox hunting, would probably send someone home who turned up to hunt dressed inappropriately for the conditions. (Granted, fox hunting doesn't normally take place in the hotter months but if it did I can't imagine anyone wanting to risk a rider passing out from heat exhaustion and falling off their horse over a jump in the middle of a field, so I suspect clothing would be selected accordingly to look smart, but also BE smart for the conditions.)

Madeline
Jul. 31, 2010, 10:54 PM
See and to me it seems disrespectful not to treat the sport as a sport. But to each their own.

Exactly.The whole "respect for tradition" goes out the window when you have children wearing shadbellies going around on absolutely flat manicured grounds, with measured distances, jumping 18" fences. Really.

A few posts back someone referred to wearing a "costume." That's what the dark wool coat, tall boots, restrictive neckwear is. A costume. Who actually does top level sport in an antiquated non-functional costume? Figure skaters do do costume, but at least it is functional costume. Do ski racers wear baggy wool pants and wool sweaters with reindeer? Do men at Wimbledon play in long pants? How about swimmers? Gymnasts? Baseball, golf, soccer...all use the most technical fabrics and functional gear available. Even eventers use functional clothing. Original foxhunting garb was (and remains) weather and conditions-appropriate.

Let's get the horse show mentality away from mocking actual tradition (varying terrain, varying pace, up and down hill, different fences set at ride-off-your-eye distances), away from costumes and toward functional performance wearing functional attire. Now that would be respectful of tradition....

Madeline
Jul. 31, 2010, 11:06 PM
Also, when it's all about tradition and yet the traditional activity on which it is ostensibly based, fox hunting, would probably send someone home who turned up to hunt dressed inappropriately for the conditions. (Granted, fox hunting doesn't normally take place in the hotter months but if it did I can't imagine anyone wanting to risk a rider passing out from heat exhaustion and falling off their horse over a jump in the middle of a field, so I suspect clothing would be selected accordingly to look smart, but also BE smart for the conditions.)

Actually, I doubt that anyone would be sent home. Spoken to maybe, but probably not sent home.

I hunted with a notoriously turnout -conscious pack for a decade. In August and September cubbing, jeans and chinos were most common attire. And regular shirts. Ratcatcher came out in October, but by then you probably wanted more than a t-shirt anyhow.
During Nov-March formal season, anything you could fit under your coat and hide behind a stock was fine.

As long as you kept up, didn't kick a hound or pass the fieldmaster, life was good.

Newer hunts tend to be more turnout conscious than more established ones, but none is as strict as hunter and eq. trainers.

Sing Mia Song
Jul. 31, 2010, 11:48 PM
I hunted with a notoriously turnout -conscious pack for a decade. In August and September cubbing, jeans and chinos were most common attire. And regular shirts. Ratcatcher came out in October, but by then you probably wanted more than a t-shirt anyhow.
During Nov-March formal season, anything you could fit under your coat and hide behind a stock was fine.



Ditto. I used to hunt with a very traditional pack, and walking hounds meant you could wear a polo with boots/breeches. Cubbing attire was a demure colored turtleneck and a tweed coat when it got nippy. Staff wore red turtlenecks during cubbing season. During formal season, most people wore a white turtleneck, a sweater (I had a cashmere sweater that was particularly helpful for this), stock, vest and coat. Tie the stock correctly and you can hide a multitude of sins.

kdow
Aug. 1, 2010, 12:16 AM
Actually, I doubt that anyone would be sent home. Spoken to maybe, but probably not sent home.

I was thinking 'inappropriate for conditions' as in to the point of being unsafe. Like if you're overdressed for the heat and therefore likely to keel over and can't, for some reason, take off layers. Or if you turned up wearing, I dunno, shorts and flip-flops, and no one had any spare clothing you could borrow.

If only because when you do fall off your horse or get stepped on and have toes crushed, then they have to stop what's actually going on and deal with getting you emergency medical attention, which will probably end up as an unfavorable write up in the media about those crazy dangerous hunt people, and make local property owners worry about liability issues and it just has the potential to turn into a big PR disaster that could easily have been prevented. :)

findeight
Aug. 1, 2010, 12:29 PM
See and to me it seems disrespectful not to treat the sport as a sport. But to each their own.

Well, rather easy to say from Canada (or Vermont) when we are mostly talking about wearing the coat in Georgia, Tennesee, Ky and the like in July and August when our show cicuit is in full swing down here.

And, again, stop with the "it's only 2 minutes". It is not for 3 Hunter rounds in a 4 horse rotation and, maybe, an Under Saddle. That's what most people show and it takes alot more then 2 minutes. Lord help the Pros with 30 trips a day (who are increasingly in shirtsleeves IF jackets are waived).

If you feel you want to retain the requirement for a dark colored coat for that Eq class that really is only 2 minutes (with Mom at the gate)? That's fine...but split that out from everybody else doing multiple trips and, maybe, multiple horses that is subject to the coats required rule.

Show Hunters is vastly different from it's roots and conditions are nowhere near what they were for traditional Hunts in many show locales. That's what we are addressing, or attempting to.

I find it ironic the uber traditional Dressge people have already passed rules for hot weather clothing that not only waive the coat but describe what can be worn. We just want to mirror them...and the Eventers who also recently enacted very specific clothing modification for hot weather.

chunky munky
Aug. 1, 2010, 12:37 PM
As usual, findeight cuts to the chase. What she said :-)

findeight
Aug. 1, 2010, 12:56 PM
Yeah...and, just to clarify for latecomers or those that don't have time to read back all the way (which I cannot blame them at all for).

Nobody has even hinted your show shirt could not be worn and you HAD to wear a knit sports shirt (polo).

Merely that if the collar could be unbuttoned and choker left off the show shirt as alot of us find a great relief and much cooler. Which is now aganst the rules when jackets are waived? That definition would allow a conservative kint sport shirt unless you "pretzel" the rules as somebody suggested.

So you can still wear your show shirt and button it up with a choker if you want. Or select one of the modern fabric, dry weave, UVA/UVB shielding knit sport shirts designed for Tennis and Golf-right now the horsey ones are not so conservative.

That is the new Dressage standard for hot weather. Why can't we adapt that is really the heart of this thread.

And for those die hards out there? You can still wear that jacket if they are waived. Once in awhile it can get so bad show management can make it mandatory that they be left off and ban them. That is probably only going to happen in a few locales and not that often so will not effect that many folks. But we need to include that in the guidelines.

Janet
Aug. 1, 2010, 02:48 PM
That is the new Dressage standard for hot weather. Why can't we adapt that is really the heart of this thread.

Nothing "new" about it for dressage. This has been in the dressage rules (with minor wording changes) since at least 1991.

It has also been in the Eventing rules for hot weather (again, with minor wording changes) since at least 1991.

Madeline
Aug. 1, 2010, 03:08 PM
Well, rather easy to say from Canada (or Vermont) when we are mostly talking about wearing the coat in Georgia, Tennesee, Ky and the like in July and August when our show cicuit is in full swing down here.



I wasn't suggesting that folk tough it out in hot weather for the sake of tradition, I was suggesting that, since the only traditional thing that show hunters have retained is the costume, we should ditch that too.

Roisin
Aug. 1, 2010, 04:20 PM
Well, rather easy to say from Canada (or Vermont) when we are mostly talking about wearing the coat in Georgia, Tennesee, Ky and the like in July and August when our show cicuit is in full swing down here.


I think Aven was agreeing with us rebels...we should treat a sport like a sport and the attire should evolve as such.

That's how I read "See and to me it seems disrespectful not to treat the sport as a sport. But to each their own."

maudie
Aug. 1, 2010, 04:30 PM
Umm..... I go to the show in sneakers, zocks, breeches, and a tank top. 20 minutes before I get on I throw on my boots and ratcatcher. I sweat like a pig, and *GASP* everyone gets a view of my camisole!!!!! How skanky!

Really, just throw on a camisole or tank top in white, nude, or whatever and you'll live. Plus, if you fall off the EMT doesn't have to cut a sleeve off of your shirt to get to your arm.

Aven
Aug. 1, 2010, 06:48 PM
I think Aven was agreeing with us rebels...we should treat a sport like a sport and the attire should evolve as such.

That's how I read "See and to me it seems disrespectful not to treat the sport as a sport. But to each their own."

Yes very much this. And it DOES get hot here, not as often or as long. But people are even less prepared for a weekend of 100+ temps with near 100% humidity. I think show coats are silly under such circumstances.

Interestingly enough I was at a hunt show today (not a hunter show lol) and saw all sorts of lovely workman like hunt types in clothes that would give hunter princesses coronaries :D Lots of polo's and breeches, which looked very professional.

LTLFLDF
Aug. 1, 2010, 08:25 PM
I have to agree with Hattie. I think a sweaty shirt does nothing for the classic picture. As far as polo's being hotter than coolmax shirt, there are plenty of polo's made to wick away sweat. In the hunters who is looking at the riders anyway.

If you want to talk about showing respect what about not braiding at winter 'A' shows because most braiders are in Florida? That is mere convenience not even for the health of the exhibitor.

As far as "sucking up for two minutes" in a jacket. If you ride one horse in one division (not to mention some people get to hand their hot horse to groom to cool out) that works. Try stepping off one horse only to get on another, all day.

Trainers often change into a polo as soon as they finish showing to "prep" client horses or coach. They still look presentable. Frankly I think most look better in a polo than in a sweaty shirt or jacket.

Now the medic in me says (we) horse people are crazy for showing in the heat but that is the reality in the south. I would have shown last week at ODHS if I could have. I spent all of Deep Run and some of ODHS trying to keep my friends and trainers cool and hydrated.

I think a rule change would be a great idea. First of all it is would be the exhibitors option what they want to wear after coats are waived. It also needs to come from the top down trainers need to embrace it then clients will follow.

What do the judges out there think? If showed under you in the hunters, well turned out horse, laid down a great trip, in sweltering heat would you think I was being disrespectful if I was well turned out in a conservative polo shirt?

I under stand Equitation is different because the clothes can hide flaws or accentuate a great position.

Added thought. To avoid overly generously waiving of coats maybe the USEF could look at a forumla of humidity and temperature to determine when coats should be waived. I know there are other organizations that use something similar.

J. Turner
Aug. 1, 2010, 08:44 PM
Exactly.The whole "respect for tradition" goes out the window when you have children wearing shadbellies going around on absolutely flat manicured grounds, with measured distances, jumping 18" fences. Really.

A few posts back someone referred to wearing a "costume." That's what the dark wool coat, tall boots, restrictive neckwear is. A costume. Who actually does top level sport in an antiquated non-functional costume? Figure skaters do do costume, but at least it is functional costume. Do ski racers wear baggy wool pants and wool sweaters with reindeer? Do men at Wimbledon play in long pants? How about swimmers? Gymnasts? Baseball, golf, soccer...all use the most technical fabrics and functional gear available. Even eventers use functional clothing. Original foxhunting garb was (and remains) weather and conditions-appropriate.

Let's get the horse show mentality away from mocking actual tradition (varying terrain, varying pace, up and down hill, different fences set at ride-off-your-eye distances), away from costumes and toward functional performance wearing functional attire. Now that would be respectful of tradition....

Now I always wondered about why baseball players wear belts. I realize back in the day wool needed something to hold it up without elastic. But wearing a sharp metal object near the nether regions never seemed like a smart decision now that they were poly. Those poly unis aren't exactly cool either. But George Costanza tried cotton and we know how that turned out.

I've always thought why not wear a collared shirt and a vest. It's not as formal, but the academy saddle seat riders do it and it looks very neat and tailored. And personally, for someone with a post-child pooch, they'd do a good job accenting the right places and covering the others. And it would be a whole new thing for tack shops to sell!

SaddleFitterVA
Aug. 1, 2010, 11:26 PM
USEF member, sitting out USHJA this year though.

Since they call it "Hunters" after "Foxhunting" and Foxhunting is a winter sport, why don't we just say, no hunter horse shows until it is hunting season. Then the traditional clothes almost make sense, and I have to say, that when I cubbed early in the season with some foxhunts...they allowed polos.

I personally find the chant of "tradition" a great excuse for people to be really stupid about a lot of things, and not just in horses. In the horse show world, show attire in summer is IMO, a great example.

I love heat, I love summer, I don't run my a/c for most of the summer, in Virginia. But, I'm also not attempting to dress up in a winter outfit to pursue an athletic endeavor in 95+ degree heat and high humidity.

As for the horse's comfort, I've been known to cold hose and scrape the horse before tacking up, and having a super-short warmup.

Polos are awesome, but I mostly own ones that are out of sport fabrics that breathe, and dry very fast. When coats are waived, the vast majority of time, I am in a polo (I've been attending more licensed USDF dressage shows than USHJA shows the past couple of years). I like the Dressage rule when coats are waived.

But, I'm about as far from a "traditionalist" as one can get.