Colored TB's.....??Racing??

[PaintBy#s]

Hey guys-

I know "1/2" the answer to my question but I thought this would be a good topic of general knowledge...Those colored TB breeders out there... and perhaps (way back when when the TB colors weren't known) Did colored TB horses hit the track?

If so, what kind of track? (small leagues, big leagues)...what kind of purses...AKA... How seriously were they campaigned as track horses?

I know Racey, and some sibling/offspring have ran on the track... I *think* pretty decently (Its been a long time since I kept up with my racing disctionary). I also know Colorwordl has gotten some very nice...sabino mares off the track also.

I also think one of the all white sabinos raced also (if my memory serves me correctly).

How was this looked at? did these horses race well? were they judged by their color?

And nowadays...why aren't more colored horses out there on the tracks?( By colored i mean... LOUDer sabino and or dilutes etc)

I understand the injury aspect...but this is likely in and discipline...

I was just thinking the other day, what I would do if I turned on ESPN to look at racing and saw a blurb like " Palomino horse XX entered this year in the triple crown series".....

[PaintBy#s]

Hey guys-

I know "1/2" the answer to my question but I thought this would be a good topic of general knowledge...Those colored TB breeders out there... and perhaps (way back when when the TB colors weren't known) Did colored TB horses hit the track?

If so, what kind of track? (small leagues, big leagues)...what kind of purses...AKA... How seriously were they campaigned as track horses?

I know Racey, and some sibling/offspring have ran on the track... I *think* pretty decently (Its been a long time since I kept up with my racing disctionary). I also know Colorwordl has gotten some very nice...sabino mares off the track also.

I also think one of the all white sabinos raced also (if my memory serves me correctly).

How was this looked at? did these horses race well? were they judged by their color?

And nowadays...why aren't more colored horses out there on the tracks?( By colored i mean... LOUDer sabino and or dilutes etc)

I understand the injury aspect...but this is likely in and discipline...

I was just thinking the other day, what I would do if I turned on ESPN to look at racing and saw a blurb like " Palomino horse XX entered this year in the triple crown series".....

[Norsire]

All of my colored mares have raced before becoming broodmares for me. I have an all white mare, several sabino, and one sabino and rabicano they all raced. My only one to not race is my mare Queen Debonair my palomino mare...not due to bloodlines on her dams side for sure. She is a Lucky Debonair decendent.

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[Amy]

Not sure but I don't think Racey actually ran- after the freak death of Trichrome (overo stallion) she wanted to make sure he would be able to reproduce. I could be wrong and he ran a few times. I do know she ran Ellusive Quest some but I doubt he will return to the track with RR death.

As for my own herd- I have two sabino mares (not near as loud as most on Nancy's site- typical 4 white socks really high, disconnected white etc) that both raced- one won a couple of races. My stallion is a sabino but he will not race.

I think it is a dream of Nancy's to actually see a horse that looks like RR in some of the really big races.

I think Naevus ran and he had a big white patch- not sure how successful he was.

[Norsire]

Amy she had a bunch more due in Jan. but no new foals have been posted..has she had anymore foals this year?

There are no answers, only the search.
Home to the stallions Zillionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
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[Impromptu]

I remember reading in Horse Illustrated (?) about a cremello or albino mare on the track.Her name and breeding escapes me at the moment though http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.
Sara. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

No hugging dear.
I'm British. We only show affection to dogs and horses.

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[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASplashOfChampagne03:

How was this looked at? did these horses race well? were they judged by their color?

And nowadays...why aren't more colored horses out there on the tracks?( By colored i mean... LOUDer sabino and or dilutes etc)
.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are actually plenty out there with high whites/belly spots. I've not seen a dilute, but I've seen chestnuts that are completely flaxen that will likely now be registered as palamino if the new rules are to be followed.

Racehorses absolutely are not judged for their color and there aren't more out there because we in racing don't breed for color, couldn't give a hoot what color a horse is, we breed for what counts - performance.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[Spot]

Sato, Spot Pocket and Puchi Trap all raced, so did Special Lady. As did Puchilingui.
You also have Marquetry, all of the Explodent and Halo bred horses that raced (and most of them were colored), Contrary Rose (who was WILDLY colored!), Naevus, etc, etc

The fellow that owned Puchi Trap before I bought her said there was SO much interest in the paddock area when she was tacked up in the post parade, and she usually went off as the betting favorite in each race, I guess because all of the old dears with their $2.00 bets put it on her because she was so pretty and so different looking!

"Spot"

[aurum]

Two Hoofs wrote:
There are actually plenty out there with high whites/belly spots. I've not seen a dilute, but I've seen chestnuts that are completely flaxen that will likely now be registered as palamino if the new rules are to be followed.
*************************************

If the new rules are to be followed then NO flaxen chestnut will be registered as Palomino as those that have chestnut papers but want to have Palomino in their papers have to send in hair examples to UC Davis and to proof that their horse is truly a diluted chestnut one and not just flaxen.

Gwendolyn
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aurum:

If the new rules are to be followed then NO flaxen chestnut will be registered as Palomino as those that have chestnut papers but want to have Palomino in their papers have to send in hair examples to UC Davis and to proof that their horse is truly a diluted chestnut one and not just flaxen.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the color descriptions are to be followed, they will indeed end up being registered as palomino in some cases (if they are lighter colored chestnuts. )



Chestnut: The entire coat of the horse may vary from a red-yellow to a golden-yellow. The mane, tail and legs are usually variations of the coat color, unless white markings are present.

Palomino: The entire coat of the horse is golden-yellow, unless white markings are present. The mane and tail are usually flaxen.



What you all are forgetting is that with the JC, the "color" is a literal coat description, not "genetic" color, no matter how badly you'd like it to be otherwise. And as a registry that serves the racing industry, we need it to stay that way. We need to be able to ID the horse in the paddock based on a several things, one of them being a description of their coat color. We do not care about what the genetic color of the horse is, nor should we. The only time genetics & color come into play with the JC is if parentage is uncertain, and even when they do they don't effect the registration color.

There's a little chestnut filly with almost pure "white" flaxen mane & tail across the shedrow from us right now that matches the coat description of palomino perfectly. If she had been registered after the additional coat description was added, she'd have had to be registered as palomino to be registered with an accurate coat description, even though she is without a doubt a genetic chestnut.

And I can guarantee you that no one in racing is going to be going through the trouble of getting genetic testing done to see what color their racehorse is - we really just don't care!

Be careful what you ask for, sometimes you might get it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[Amy]

Norsire- her next expected foal is by She's Got a Look due on 2-10.... so any day now! I am hoping for her sake she has a GREAT year. Lots of color, healthy foals and no problems!

[Everythingbutwings]

Impromptu, are you thinking of Patchen Beauty?

Racing photo of Patchen Beauty (http://www.horsesales.com/patlang/patchenbeauty5.html)

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[PaintBy#s]

Hey guys- thanks for responding!

Sorry if my Info on RR was incorrect. I vaguely remembered seeing pictures up on the site of him with silks on and a jockey up, but now that Im thinkin(harder LOL) I think it was elusive that I saw in silks and a jockey up.

I also thought that patchen beauty had raced (this is Norsire's mare correct?) and didn't BW or a relative (max sabino) race too? I remember it was a colt that I saw coming out of the starting gate.

TwoToofs- Sorry if it seemed "not thought out" my remark about..."how it was looked upon etc".

I know that racing is racing and its the blood/conformation that is key, never the color. I just thought it would be interesting to look up any color racers etc. and that it would be interesting to see one race...no matter if color matters or not, like spot said... there's the ladies in the crowd that will bet on the "pretty pony" LOL so I guess there IS a "out" for the colored horses! they get more bets maybe http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also- Perhaps another thread ALL together...

Are the genetics of how to create another Bright White or Patchen beauty up to date? so to speak... is there a way to breed for a max sabino yet?

Representing RobbyJ and Missy "Misdemeanor" Elliot: NOTE: This is not reflecting my views! I just about spit out my soda when Robby posted this! (hence why its in the sig line)

"When I walk up in the piece, I ain't even gotta speak, I'm a bad muthaf&C#a, godd&&m^t you ain't gotta like me."

[camohn]

Starting with a max white helps but the all whites are still a pretty rare thing (even from the white parents)and it is not always that way. One yearling near white colt is by Airdie o/o a black bay mare w/ chrome but she not really sabino looking. Being a Prince Stanley dtr. is highly likely a sabino carrier though. My white mare is o/o a white mare, but her 2 foals to date herself are a 50% white sabino and a minimal sabino (4 stockings to knees and wide blaze). She is being bred to Wild By Design. Since his sire is a near white it wil be interesting to see what pops up!

Providence Farm

[PaintBy#s]

CaMohn-

Thanks for some info.

Do you have al all white(max sabino) mare or did you just mean your sabino mare (meaning white markings)

Representing RobbyJ and Missy "Misdemeanor" Elliot: NOTE: This is not reflecting my views! I just about spit out my soda when Robby posted this! (hence why its in the sig line)

"When I walk up in the piece, I ain't even gotta speak, I'm a bad muthaf&C#a, godd&&m^t you ain't gotta like me."

[aurum]

Two Hoofs,
any JC horse that claims to be a Palomino will have to send in parentage AND dilution genetic DNA, so there will no chestnut get Palomino papers and no Palomino any more chestnut papers. That was my point. What people then SAY might be different than in the papers but the papers will be correct. For the papers there will have to be proof of the dilution via DNA test.

Gwendolyn
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aurum:
Two Hoofs,
any JC horse that claims to be a Palomino will have to send in parentage AND dilution genetic DNA, so there will no chestnut get Palomino papers and no Palomino any more chestnut papers. That was my point. What people then SAY might be different than in the papers but the papers will be correct. For the papers there will have to be proof of the dilution via DNA test.

Gwendolyn
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you point this rule out to me in the rule book? Because I sure don't see it, not the in US JC rules anyway. There is absolutely no way that the US racing industry is going to tolerate having to pay for additional tests to find out what genetic color a horse is.

BTW, there is no way a literal description of a coat color is a "Wrong" way to register a horse. It's just different than the way some other registries do it, and there is a reason for it. I don't see how that is so hard to understand - the JC does not care what genetic color a horse is, nor should they. They need only an accurate literal description of a horse on it's registration papers.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[aurum]

Two Hoofs,

I am sorry to contradict you, but the International Convention has just recently decided that they will have Palomino as color description. I know it first hand as I was the one involved in that together with the German JC. The American JC had to agree on it too after all other JCs had voted for it. The new rules will come out in written very soon. The hairs of my mare has been sent as example to UC Davis and they came back with the fact that it is indeed a diluted chestnut horse, speak a Palomino. So now they set up the rules to be sure to have a Palomino in color instead of chestnut. The correct definition is WANTED by the European JCs and not only racing ability is important any more as correct identification is very important too. I only know that because I am involved in the whole matter so just believe me, it will soon be in print out for the others to see.

Gwendolyn
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[Anne]

Norsire does not own Patchen Beauty.

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aurum:
Two Hoofs,

I am sorry to contradict you, but the International Convention has just recently decided that they will have Palomino as color description. I know it first hand as I was the one involved in that together with the German JC. The American JC had to agree on it too after all other JCs had voted for it. The new rules will come out in written very soon. The hairs of my mare has been sent as example to UC Davis and they came back with the fact that it is indeed a diluted chestnut horse, speak a Palomino. So now they set up the rules to be sure to have a Palomino in color instead of chestnut. The correct definition is WANTED by the European JCs and not only racing ability is important any more as correct identification is very important too. I only know that because I am involved in the whole matter so just believe me, it will soon be in print out for the others to see.

Gwendolyn
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't be sorry, but the definition is already in the US JC rulebook and there are no color genetic testing rules.

And, like I said, there is absolutely NO WAY that the US racing community is going to stand for having to PAY to do genetic testing on the color of their horses as a requirement for registry. Be certain of that.

And BTW, if you register your horses according to the JC coat descriptions here in the US, it is a correctly registered horse. And I fail to see what the coat color description has to do with racing or other ability in any horse. Coat descriptions do not effect the value or function of the few people who breed TBs for their color rather than for their performance, so why the heck should we have to pay extra to register our horses just because a few select individuals have their panties in a wad over how coats are described in the registry?


Edited to add: And what about the other variations on the chestnut coat color? Why not separate categories for "Sorrel" or "liver chestnut"? Why are you not concerned about those? And while we're at it, perhaps we should add "Sabino" & "Tobiano", etc., to the JC descriptions as well like the APHA does?

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[Norsire]

My White mare is Our White Lady who is an all white chestnut sabino...she has no red anywhere on her, not even b/w the ears, but I know she is red base coat since both dam and sire are chestnut and when she was bred the second time to one of my cremellos she has a palomino sabino filly. I was just contacted yesterday, by a research group in KY doing a study on sabino TB's. They asked if I could do kits on all my sabino horses for them. I of course said, I'd be happy to do so. The kits were mailed to me yesterday, so I should receive them early next week. Here is my All White mare...Our White Lady AUS-White TB Mare (http://www.norsire.com/ourwhitelady.html)

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[PaintBy#s]

I don't know where my brain is. I KNEW "our white lady" was Norsires (DUH!!) I'm so sorry.

Who owns patchen beauty?

[Norsire]

A farm in KY, I think it is something like the Wilkes family.

There are no answers, only the search.
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[PaintBy#s]

Thanks Norsire.. and patchen beauty is a big race producing mare correct?

[Palomino Leopard WB]

_____________________________________________
Coat descriptions do not effect the value or function of the few people who breed TBs for their color rather than for their performance, so why the heck should we have to pay extra to register our horses just because a few select individuals have their panties in a wad over how coats are described in the registry?


Edited to add: And what about the other variations on the chestnut coat color? Why not separate categories for "Sorrel" or "liver chestnut"? Why are you not concerned about those? And while we're at it, perhaps we should add "Sabino" & "Tobiano", etc., to the JC descriptions as well like the APHA does?

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)
_____________________________________________

I think perhaps you have misunderstood Aurum's post.
Fist just becasue a horse isn't going to race does not mean it's not breed to perform. I think several examples of unusual coloured TB's have been listed that did indeed race. Regardless of colour perhaps thousands of TB's each year are breed to be show horses not racers.
And why wouldn't the JC have a seperate categories for sabino, tobiano...for obvious reasons a horses markings are clearly written on the horses papers for ALL TB's. Markings and correct colour are obviously important for identification purposes of the horse.
If a horse is Palomino then it should be listed as Palomino on it's papers why is that so difficult? You would not want your chestnut listed as a bay would you? It's no different. If a person has to have a DNA colour test to prove a horse is indeed Palomino before it is marked that was on the papers then it does not effect the cost of all horses registered just those who wish to prove their horse is x colour. How is this any different fromt he JC recognizing white horses in the past?

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Palomino Leopard WB:
I think perhaps you have misunderstood Aurum's post.
Fist just becasue a horse isn't going to race does not mean it's not breed to perform. I think several examples of unusual coloured TB's have been listed that did indeed race. Regardless of colour perhaps thousands of TB's each year are breed to be show horses not racers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think I've ever said that color had anything to do with their performance - as racehorses or otherwise. I don't really care what color a horse is, I care whether or not the horse can do its job. You want to breed TBs for purposes other than race horses? Go ahead, have at it. No one is stopping you or saying that you shouldn't. I could see the point if you were being denied registration rights, like the cremello/AQHA business, but that is not the case.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And why wouldn't the JC have a seperate categories for sabino, tobiano...for obvious reasons a horses markings are clearly written on the horses papers for ALL TB's. Markings and correct colour are obviously important for identification purposes of the horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because it's specific markings and specific coat descriptions that we need, not whether or not the horse is genetically tobiano or sabino, etc., unlike the APHA. That's why we write out detailed physical descriptions of the markings instead of just saying "sabino" or whatever. We need to be able to identify our horses on what you see in front of you, not on what color genes they carry. The identifier has about 2 seconds to identify a horse before a race. And they, unlike many others apparently, know what the coat descriptions are for each category and what fits within those ranges.

Why should the majority of the members of a registry have to go through extra steps & trouble that are not necessary, and make extra work for those who work at the non-profit registry, just so an extremely small percentage of owners can have some type of bragging rights - that they have whether or not that is marked on the papers? Like it or not, the registry IS set up to cater to the racing industry - that's why westarted it! If you don't like it, you are free to register your TBs elsewhere. The color rules do not harm you in any way. The coat descriptions are in no way used as parentage indentifiers (and before someone tries to whip out the rule about coat inheritence, please actually read the rule book where it states that the coat descriptions have nothing to do with identification of parentage).

We do not expect other registries to change their rules to meet requirements we need for racing, even if we race their horses (Arabians, QH & Paints, for example). Why should they have to conform to rules that have nothing to do with what the majority of their members need for their registry to serve their purposes? You can AI, inspect, and breed homozygous quadruple reverse dilute medicine hat appaloosas all you want to! Go right ahead.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If a horse is Palomino then it should be listed as Palomino on it's papers why is that so difficult? You would not want your chestnut listed as a bay would you? It's no different. If a person has to have a DNA colour test to prove a horse is indeed Palomino before it is marked that was on the papers then it does not effect the cost of all horses registered just those who wish to prove their horse is x colour. How is this any different fromt he JC recognizing white horses in the past?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What if one comes up with a Palomino and does not WANT to spend the extra money for genetic testing to get palomino on the papers? Now what? We are forced to spend extra money to register our horses because a few select individuals want bragging rights, nothing more? If it's not a forced option, then what - you register as palomino if you want to spend the $$, if not, you register it as chestnut? And why does it stop at chestnut? Hell, let's add smokey black too. Would love to see someone identify that one on site alone. We'd be spending a hour at the identifier per horse. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

There is no gained benefit to having "palomino" on your thoroughbred's papers. You are not prevented from registering your dilute gene horses with the registry. If your horse is a palomino and it says chestnut on the papers, you can still say all day long that you have a palomino TB. Nothing stopping you - just as those horses who are liver chestnut or sorrel say "chestnut" on the papers. BTW, if you want to get really technical, the palomino is a chestnut horse - a diluted one, but chestnut none the less.

BTW, the JC has and still does recognize "white" as a color - it's been in the rule book for quite some time now. Your horse must match the coat description, meaning no markings of other colors anywhere. If folks would stop and actually read the rule book, you would see that the coat descriptions match the horses that you are saying they don't. Black is also a coat description - has been for a long time. But your horse must meet the requirements of that description to get that designation. It's really very simple.

It's all pretty much moot anyway. The US JC is not requiring any type of genetic testing for color according to its rule book.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[Norsire]

Two Toofs, I hate to say this, but they are in the works now to add cremello next and then maybe onto buckskin and perlino. I for one, would love to see the correct colors on the papers. It is not a matter for just the US JC, but the international group of JC's that voted on it and the US was out voted on the change, so there are alot more people in favor of it than not in favor of it on a board level anyway.

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[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Norsire:
I for one, would love to see the correct colors on the papers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really don't see why it is so difficult for folks to distinguish a COAT DESCRIPTION from the GENETIC COLOR of a horse. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I'll say it slowly, one more time......

JC papers do. not. have. genetic. colors. on. them. anywhere. They. have. coat. descriptions.

They ARE correct if anyone would bother to actually READ the darn things.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[Palomino Leopard WB]

You know I was laughing on the way to work today that if Two Hoofs could come up with a bumper sticker that says my racing TB beat up your Palomino Dressage TB they probably would... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
_______________________________________________
*******What if one comes up with a Palomino and does not WANT to spend the extra money for genetic testing to get palomino on the papers? Now what? We are forced to spend extra money to register our horses because a few select individuals want bragging rights, nothing more? If it's not a forced option, then what - you register as palomino if you want to spend the $$, if not, you register it as chestnut? And why does it stop at chestnut? Hell, let's add smokey black too. Would love to see someone identify that one on site alone. We'd be spending a hour at the identifier per horse.
______________________________________________
Once again you have lost sight of Aurum's initial post and somehow turned it into every horse having to be DNA tested at the owners expense to register a TB. It has nothing to do with bragging rights and everything to do with correctly stating the horses colour. You wouldn't list a black as a bay etc. now would you but for your logic why not as bay also has a black gene.

____________________________________________
**********BTW, the JC has and still does recognize "white" as a color - it's been in the rule book for quite some time now. Your horse must match the coat description, meaning no markings of other colors anywhere. If folks would stop and actually read the rule book, you would see that the coat descriptions match the horses that you are saying they don't. Black is also a coat description - has been for a long time. But your horse must meet the requirements of that description to get that designation. It's really very simple.

It's all pretty much moot anyway. The US JC is not requiring any type of genetic testing for color according to its rule book.

JC papers do. not. have. genetic. colors. on. them. anywhere. They. have. coat. descriptions.
____________________________________________

You are correct they do now register white horses as white...but what a mess that was to have that happen and how many foals were never registered becasue they were born the wrong colour?
Yes they have coat descriptions and the correct description of a Palomino horse is? Yet again if the owner of a Palomino JC horse would like Palomino on it's registration papers then what is the problem. You said yourself that you have to identify the horse quickly by colour/markings so why call a Palomino a chestnut when it is not.
What does it really matter to you since you seem to have such a dislike of coloured horses.

[Albion]

It doesn't sound to me like Two Toofs has a 'dislike' of colored horses ... more like s/he is involved in the racing world, where the horse could be PURPLE and that would be A-OK as long as it could RUN. No one buys a racing prospect based solely on color (well, maybe some people do, but that seems like a pretty bad way to pick out racing prospects to me). As Two Toofs has already pointed out, the JOCKEY Club caters to (duh) the racing set. Not the sport horse set. It seems to me that colored TB sport horse breeding is a small set of the entire JC - most people breeding exclusively for racing don't care what color they end up with, as long as the horse has what it takes on the track - and as we all know, color may be the icing on the cake, but it's no indicator of talent. I can see where Two Toofs is coming from.

It doesn't sound like Two Toofs has an axe to grind, it sounds like s/he thinks it's dumb to REQUIRE genetic testing on JC registered horses 'of a different color.' For the purposes of racing, who gives a flying fig whether or not the horse is genetically X color? What does it actually LOOK like. I'm no color expert, but from what it sounds like, a horse can be X color but not really look it - what good does that do people at the track, where you need to be able to look at a horse & their papers and go 'bay, chestnut, whatever', not 'Hmmm, I *think* that could be a smokey black.' And WHY does it matter so much in the sport horse world? I'm genuinely asking that question. When I look at a TB (papers or no papers) like Dream In Gold, I can see that he's a palomino. It's quite obvious - I don't need to see his papers to verify this. Where is the problem?

Apologies to Two Toofs - I'm not trying to put words in your mouth!

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

[Two Toofs]

No apologies necessary Albion! Well said.

*I* know the rules & coat descriptions (so easy to learn & memorize!), but apparently can't force others to actually read them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[Impromptu]

ETBW: Yes, thats her!

Sara. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

No hugging dear.
I'm British. We only show affection to dogs and horses.

www.BluVenture.com (http://www.BluVenture.com)

[aurum]

Sorry, but I have again to jump into that one. Have you ever thought what happens to a horse that is exported with the WRONG color description! Believe me "I" have gone through that. I bought two Palomino (papered chestnut) JC foals and imported them to Germany...and there it begins. The papers remained by the JC and an International TB passport was established and sent to the German JC, then "I" had to proof that the horses in my barn are the horses the German JC has the papers. This PROOF has to be done in written by a government vet...do you see coming what came???.... and the description with COLOR and all of the whirls and scars and whatever have to be written into that paperwork to make that imported horse achieve again the papers via the German JC now. Well the government vet came and the papers received Palomino in the color section and the problems started.... the former director of the German JC Dr. Borman came personally on my farm to inspect the horses. Turned around them and said "yes this is a Palomino, I have never seen a TB palomino but this sure is NO chestnut, how come that the color is false, we have always been told that the Palomino color does NOT exist in TBs". So I told him that this is the correct horse, blood had to be drawn again to proof that this horse is exactly the horse it is! Then the new director Dr. Uphaus called me and said that from now on he will do everything to make the JCs worldwide follow the correct color description as a Palomino is not a chestnut and vice versa and a horse can easily sold with the false papers due to uncorrect color description.

I hope the reason why is not understood. That was NO FUN at all for me and the horses that had been left without their papers for 2 (!!) years.

The color description on a race horse is as important as for any other horse in the world, it has nothing to do with racing or anything other. If f.e. a Palomino would win a race and the announcer says the chestnut mare XY just won this race, people on the TV would say "what an idiot! that's not a chestnut, that's a Palomino!

As an aside note, my ALL WHITE TB maximum Sabino mare Padrama IS roan/grey in her papers!

Gwendolyn
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[Norsire]

Gwen, are they going to change your white mare's papers to, white for you? My mare Our White Lady, came from AUS with her papers saying white so it was not a problem. My white colt Pure White Gold is reg as white as well. I will say, I did a thread on how stupid the JC can be with reg and colors when I did reg him. I had sent in his paper work with a hand written letter stating his dam was white per her papers and he was all white as well, so should be white, but there was no blank on the papers for white, so as they requested, I did a hand written letter stating his dam was white and he was white as well...they send me a letter with the normal blanks and said check one, the chestnut, grey/roan, bay and ect. I called and said, did you read my letter? They then said to rewrite it on the letter they send and then it got put on there correctly. They are a bit slow sometimes in reading the material sent.

There are no answers, only the search.
Home to the stallions Zillionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club
http://www.bridgetperry.com

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aurum:
Well the government vet came and the papers received Palomino in the color section and the problems started....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So should we change all the rules & incorporate more fees for less than 1% of the registries horses, or maybe, just maybe, your government officials could possibly actually read & learn the JC rules?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
As an aside note, my ALL WHITE TB maximum Sabino mare Padrama IS roan/grey in her papers!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then maybe whomever registered your mare should have read the rule book as well. It's really not even very long, or hard to understand. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[Amy]

Two toofs- so are you saying that a palomino horse is the same as a chestnut? Because previously the only option was to check chestnut etc and none of those apply at all to a palomino. What are cremellos reg as? Chestnuts as well. If I saw a cremello horse walk out with papers that said chestnut I would wonder.

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Amy:
Two toofs- so are you saying that a palomino horse is the same as a chestnut? Because previously the only option was to check chestnut etc and none of those apply at all to a palomino. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh for the LOVE OF PETE.

Have ANY of you EVER opened and READ the Rules & Regulations of the American Stud Book?


What color is this?
"The entire coat of the horse may vary from a red-yellow to a golden-yellow. "


How about this?
"The entire coat of the horse is golden-yellow. "


I give up. You've all changed my mind. I'd rather PAY for genetic testing on every TB I ever register in the future that to try to continue to explain something so darn simple to people who refuse to even read the rules. It's amazing that we in the racing industry have ever made it this far without y'all to help 'show us the light', even without apparently ever even laying eyes on the rule book.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[Amy]

Actually Two Toofs I did read it... and they now give a description for palomino (I did not open it- but I did read it online. I don't think they have ever sent me a copy... maybe I was suppose to request that.)

So how does a cremello or a perlino fit into ANY of those descriptions.

[Palomino Leopard WB]

There are actually plenty out there with high whites/belly spots. I've not seen a dilute, but I've seen chestnuts that are completely flaxen that will likely now be registered as palamino if the new rules are to be followed.
________________________________________________

_______________________________________________
So should we change all the rules & incorporate more fees for less than 1% of the registries horses, or maybe, just maybe, your government officials could possibly actually read & learn the JC rules?
_______________________________________________

Really I have no idea why you continue to argue this point at state things that are simply untrue. I am sure you do not mean to come across so rudely. NO where have I read that this will in any way effect ALL horses registered JC, nor do you see anything stating ALL horses will have to be DNA typed for colour. If a person wants their horses listed by their correct colour of Palomino (if they are true Palomino's) then they would submitt DNA testing. A flaxen chestnut is not the same thing as a Palomino horse.
Plainly a horses colour listed on their papers IS a identifying factor as well as white markings etc. No one ever stated that horses should be listed Sabino Tobiano etc. yet you jumped on that as well. There is NO difference here that a bay horse incorrectly being listed as a black etc. No difference as to what happened in the past with white horses not being registered etc. it's called progress and there is no reason that a horse owner should not have papers that CORRECTLY identify their horses.

[aurum]

Two Toofs,

seems as if the "American racing industry" likes to be blind sighted and make a yellow to red or vice versa. Palomino is NOT chestnut and grey/roan is NOT white and violet is not pink!
How about starting to call chestnuts reddish bay with reddish mane and tail or how about calling bays brownish chestnuts with black mane and tail. Good that the blacks cannot be confused with a white one......

Gwendolyn
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[Albion]

I have a feeling that the number of perlino or cremello TBs that actually make it to the track & run are so small as to be negligible when considering how to make the coat distinctions. Go to the track. What color horses do you see, mostly? Bays. Greys. Chestnuts. And so forth. I get the impression that color in TBs really needs to be bred for - especially in the case of double dilutes (that's what perlino & cremello & so forth are, correct?) - and that is simply NOT what most race breeders are breeding for.

What if a horse is a genetic palomino, but looks more like a 'regular' chestnut? I assume that is possible? What then?

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

[ruthie]

Normally I am just a lurker on these boards. I choose to lurk b/c most of the conversations are just interesting to follow and I am continually looking to improve my knowledge and sometimes just to catch up on my "soap fix" particularly when a thread seems to be going way off course.
I believe the original question here has disintegrated into once again the ridiculousness of the color issue.
Two Toofs---
I have read the JC rule book. However it is misleading to say that they want 4 color photographs "clearly showing the color, markings(or lack of) on the head, legs and body. Then to go ahead and incorrectly register the horses coat color description.Yes, I know they have a description but in todays techno world, it is too easy to change the coat color(to match the horse or vice versa) or to request duplicate papers or give false papers to potential buyers.
I agree with Gwen when she says that horses who are exported need to be correctly color identified as well as DNA typed and precisely b/c there are way too many variations on the chestnut coat or the bay or the black or the brown. You have to prove your horse is gentically black before the JC will change their color and they do charge for that privilege(50.00).
Horses are required to submit genetic typing, well genetic typing can include the color markers. It is simply a matter of blood vs mane roots. So you would submit both blood and mane roots.
If you look under their deceptive practices it states that "any person KNOWINGLY misrepresents, aids or abets the misrepresentation of the identity, name, age, appereance, pedigree, GENETIC TYPE...or any other information" That could be an construed to be an accurate color definition.
Most ethical breeders breed for performance be it racing or other wise.
However large amounts of information and I mean accurate information has been lost b/c the JC club did not require accurate coat color descriptions. For those people who like to trace our TB's roots or any TB's Roots(pedigree) it is difficult to trace simply b/c the coat color was not accurately described or given. Especially in today's techno world, it is just plain silly not to acknowledge with test proof what coat color the animal truly is.
For example, Red Fox Farm produced the first Perlino TB in history. They should be able to submit the genetic test results as well as pictures and blood DNA and have their filly registered as her true coat color Perlino. However they will not be able to do that. They will have to register their filly as a bay b/c bucksin does not exist as a recognized color to JC. It does in every other registry just not the JC. Why is JC so stubborn about accurate coat color descriptions? what skin is it off their teeth to accurately acknowledge correct/accurate coat colors descriptions?ESPECIALLY SINCE THE OWNERS OF THESE RARE COLORED TB'S ARE WILLING TO PROVIDE GENETIC PROOF TO THE JC(Norsire, Gwen, Red Fox and others)
If the owners are willing to pay the fee to have it genetically proven, unless the JC club wants to call UC Davis test results into question.
OOps I forgot they use UC Davis as their testing lab....
I do not see how this will affect the racing world per se.
Two Toofs if you want your flaxen chestnut registered as a palomino..then by all means do so. However it will not be an accurate coat color definition. Accurate has to equal genetic accuracy as well.
Quite frankly why not add the little box for the paint TB's as well.
Where I get a little peeved are the individuals on the board who keep refering to their maxed out sabinos as white...so sorry they are not white. Most of them carry some form of colored skin pigmentation and when you say white, white is the abscence of all color.They are maxed out sabino's and should be registered as such.
Again another valid reason for accurate and genetic testing.
There are too many reasons to have the genetic color typing and really no reason not too. If you... Two Toofs... do not want to genetically marker your horses coat that is your choice however the choice should be allowed to those owners to accurately and gentically prove that their "colored TB" is here and to stay. And quite frankly all the colors of the rainbow should exist as an accurate coat color description.
These are not meant as personal attacks(I would have to know you for that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ). These coat colors exist in just about every breed and quite frankly if I can prove it scientifically then the JC or any other registry should acknowledge it in it's accurate coat color boxes.This was the stupidity of the AQHA in not acknowledging the cremellos and perlinos. I mean really if I breed two of any registry(substitute JC/AQHA/or whatever breed registry) together it is a JC/AQHA /whatever and whatever the color- that one fact does not change they are still a JC/..... Be they pink /purple or the rainbow.
That is what a color registry is for and the only color registries I am aware of are Pinto/Paint and Buckskin. If I am not mistaken all breeds are welcome there.

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Where I get a little peeved are the individuals on the board who keep refering to their maxed out sabinos as white...so sorry they are not white. Most of them carry some form of colored skin pigmentation and when you say white, white is the abscence of all color.They are maxed out sabino's and should be registered as such.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen to that ...

and excellent post too, by the way. Couldnt agree with you more!
And I, too, hope that Red Fox is able to register their perlino correctly as such, rather than as a bay. Will be very interesting to see how that transpires.

Thanks for coming out of "lurk mode" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

This is actually one of the few times the JC actually got things right in the colour department.
Ryeesin Up (picture attached) is a black & white maximally expressed sabino. Her sire - Airdrie Apache, is a chestnut sabino and her dam - Ryeesa, is a jet black TB.
Even thought she LOOKS like a deep slate grey, genetically she cannot BE one with no grey parent. She will also never fade like a typical grey will do.
Her APHA papers call her a brown overo and her JC papers call her dark bay or brown, which is EXACTLY what she is, if you dont call her black.
I had more people email and call me and accuse me of falsely advertising her. Saying that I was trying to make a plain grey horse "more exotic and rare" than it really was ??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Said that I should contact the JC and get her papers corrected, before "I get into trouble".

Bizarre is all I can say - totally bizarre that there was this much hue and cry over a colour issue, especially as GENETICALLY, SHE COULD NEVER BE WHAT ALL OF THESE PEOPLE WERE INSISTING THAT SHE WAS!!!

True Colours Farm
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm

Breeders of unique coloured Thoroughbreds, Sport Horses and Paints

[This message was edited by Spot on Feb. 09, 2004 at 06:18 PM.]

[PaintBy#s]

Hey Spot..

Did you HAVE to post her? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

LOL you KNOW I would take her over Vegas/PuchiTrap all of em put together!

( how old is that mare now anyways? and where is she?)

[Spot]

oh shoot Splash - I plumb forgot that you covet that mare! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

She is in PA. The girl that bought her is having a blast showing her and she is coming back here to be bred to Sato this year or possibly next.

THAT will be a neat foal!

She's a 1998, so 6 this year

"Spot"

[jilltx]

I guess my problem with the JC is that they go to such great efforts to make sure that the CORRECT horse is being identified by the papers (right down to the cowlicks and swirls), so why not register the CORRECT color. It just doesn't make sense to me from an identification standpoint.

~Jilltx
http://doobage.redirectme.net/horses/kelly2.jpg

"Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go 'round" ~ Freddie Mercury "Queen"

[PaintBy#s]

LOL spot you FORGOT! How COULD you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif


LOL I think you should email her and tell her if that mare is ever to be up for sale that a Certain SOMEONE needs to be contacted!

[PaintBy#s]

Hey spot... Was the black mare homozygous black?

Do you know what Aidre Apache's consistency is when bred to black mares 9 confirmed or non confirmed homozygous) and if it leans towards producing the above mare.....?

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jilltx:
I guess my problem with the JC is that they go to such great efforts to make sure that the CORRECT horse is being identified by the papers (right down to the cowlicks and swirls), so why not register the CORRECT color. It just doesn't make sense to me from an identification standpoint.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll try this ONE MORE TIME. If this isn't understandable by anyone who speaks the English language, I really can't help.

The Jockey Club "colors" are categories of COAT DESCRIPTIONS. They are NOT GENETIC COLORS. The coat descriptions have NOTHING TO DO with the genetics of the horse. This is even SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSED in the JC Rule Book - that the COLOR DESCRIPTIONS have NOTHING TO DO with identification of parentage.

Please, for the love of Pete, READ THE DEFINITIONS OF THEM and maybe you'll understand. There is also no such "genetic color" as "Dark bay Or Brown". Because "Dark Bay or Brown" is COAT DESCRIPTION. There is no genetic color of "Grey or Roan". "Grey or Roan" is a COAT DESCRIPTION. It's simpler and believe it or not, EASIER this way.

Geez, all this objection on a forum that has another thread with people trying to GUESS the "genetic colors" of two horses by their photos. (Each of whom, by the way, fit very neatly into JC COAT DESCRIPTIONS just by looking at them) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

And Spot, if the filly is registered with a COAT DESCRIPTION of bay, dark bay or brown, or black -she IS registered incorrectly. She is of the COAT DESCRIPTION of "Grey or Roan". She'd never get a tattoo applied in a million years with "Bay" or "Dark Bay or Brown" or "Black" on her papers. Neither would she be allowed to race by any identifier in the country should she run into a tattoer who were blind and allowed her to get by. Because we have the rules the way they are FOR A REASON, not just to annoy those who breed TBs for color rather than for racing.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And Spot, if the filly is registered with a COAT DESCRIPTION of bay, dark bay or brown, or black -she IS registered incorrectly. She is of the COAT DESCRIPTION of "Grey or Roan". She'd never get a tattoo applied in a million years with "Bay" or "Dark Bay or Brown" or "Black" on her papers. Neither would she be allowed to race by any identifier in the country should she run into a tattoer who were blind and allowed her to get by. Because we have the rules the way they are FOR A REASON, not just to annoy those who breed TBs for color rather than for racing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry NDANO - I do like you immensely http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but I gotta disagree with you on this one.

For the record, I did not breed this filly or own her at birth. I got her as a 2 yr old after she had her papers in place.

The breeders applied for the JC registration, and along with the required 4 colour photographs, got her papers back from the Jockey Club saying "dark bay / brown".
They didnt ask for her to be called dark bay/brown - the Jockey Club did so upon viewing the pictures and figuring out that she COULDNT be a grey/roan with no grey parent and THEY, not the breeders, made that decision.

To be honest, I dont care WHAT the JC did before, they do need to come clean once and for all and call a spade a spade and a palomino a palomino, otherwise their entire Stud Book is going to perpetuate the errors, the misconceptions and the abject stupidity for generations to come. All because they have this convoluted idea of colours and genetics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif that defies ALL logic and ALL rationale

This reminds me of when my LooksPalominoToMe colt was at Fort Erie and:

a) no one believed he really WAS a TB, because everyone knows that palomino TB's dont exist
b) I was called to the stewards office within 24 hours and asked to produce his papers IMMEDIATELY, if not sooner
c) when they saw "chestnut" on his papers, I was then accused of trying to pull one over on them
d) I was then told that THEY were going to pull blood on him themselves and send it off for re-testing and the implication was that if I had pulled a fast one on them, Hell hath no greater fury than a steward scorned http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It was stupid. Just plain stupid. And all of it could have avoided IF he had been registered correctly to being with.

You're right - palomino IS a dilute of chestnut, but these stewards hadnt read that particular color genetics book, as, I dare say, most of them have not

"Spot"

[jilltx]

Two Toofs...easy girl!! I'm NOT trying to argue with you. I'm just stating that if you can DESCRIBE a bay coat then why not DESCRIBE a palomino? The JC has gone to SUCH great lengths for DETAILED descriptions of marking and such, that I would just think that they would add more COAT DESCRIPTIONS to their boxes. What doesn't make sense to me is to make such a fuss over photos and markings, then get the coat DESCRIPTIONS wrong. To me it looks like the old, "do as I say and not as I do"...and the JC has been getting away with it for too long!!! If it is just a coat color "description", then why do they get so bent outta shape with the palomino's and such?? It is, after all, only a DESCRIPTION.
They are equally to blame for causing such a stir IMHO.

~Jilltx
http://doobage.redirectme.net/horses/kelly2.jpg

"Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go 'round" ~ Freddie Mercury "Queen"

[Amy]

Two Toofs... you said Spot's filly was incorrectly registered and should have been listed as a grey roan.... Well from the Jockey club website:

"Gray/Roan: The Jockey Club has combined these colors into one color category. This does not change the individual definitions of the colors for gray and roan and in no way impacts on the two-coat color inheritance principle as stated in Rule 1(E).

Gray: The majority of the coat of the horse is a mixture of black and white hairs. The mane, tail and legs may be either black or gray, unless white markings are present. "

so yes she appears to be gray... but if you read Rule 1 (E)....

"Applying the principles of two-coat color inheritance, that is, a chestnut sire and a chestnut dam must produce a chestnut or, in some instances, a palomino foal; and a gray/roan foal must have at least one gray/roan parent."

Since neither of her parents were reg. as gray she could not be either.

It IS a very complicated issue. I understand that racing folks don't care about the 1% of the horses out there that are cremello/sabino/perlino/buckskin... BUT if those owners are willing to pay for the additional test then WHY can't they put the correct color on the papers?? It is a problem for people when they want to ship their horses or take them to the track.

[PaintBy#s]

Hey Spot- ( and color gurus) read my last post on here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Amy]

Splash- since Airdrie is chestnut that mare could not have been homozygous black. I have no idea what his % are on throwing that color from black mares- they have a lot of foals but only a few ever make it to their website. It would be interesting to know his color %.

BTW I really liked that filly as well and came soooo close to buying her before I opted to buy the stud colt from Nancy instead. I wondered what happened to her- very unique look to her. It will be interesting to see what she produces from Sato...

[PaintBy#s]

Amy... Can I PT you? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I might just email and find out his color percentage, and I have a feeling he throws much like Puchilini ( I know I spelt that wrong http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif)

His foal are all what I have seen the "splotchy" type but he seems to be able to produce the max or near max sabino...and I have seen bay sabinos out of him so maybe his chestnut is REALLY recessive!

[Amy]

Splash- of course you can PT me~ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I know some people don't like the fading roan color- I do but I also really like the crisp line that Sato has.

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Amy:
Two Toofs... you said Spot's filly was incorrectly registered and should have been listed as a grey roan.... Well from the Jockey club website:

"Gray/Roan: The Jockey Club has combined these colors into one color category. This does not change the individual definitions of the colors for gray and roan and in no way impacts on the two-coat color inheritance principle as stated in Rule 1(E).

Gray: The majority of the coat of the horse is a mixture of black and white hairs. The mane, tail and legs may be either black or gray, unless white markings are present. "

so yes she appears to be gray... but if you read Rule 1 (E)....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. This does not change the individual definitions of the colors for gray and roan and IN NO WAY impacts the two-coat color inhereitance principle as stated in Rule 1(E).


And there already WAS color category that palomino horses fit into - the chestnut description. All they did when they made the new description was use half of the wording for the chestnut description and add on that the mane/tail is USUALLY flaxen, instead of USUALLY the same color as the rest of the coat. Just like "grey/roan" share a category, and "Dark bay and brown" share a category, so too did "chestnut" include horses of more than one genetic color.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[Amy]

Two Toofs- you totally missed the point of my post. You said the filly should be labeled gray/roan because that fits the description of what she LOOKS like- but the JC rules says she CAN'T be reg that becuase she has no gray/roan parent. That was my point.

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Amy:
Two Toofs- you totally missed the point of my post. You said the filly should be labeled gray/roan because that fits the description of what she LOOKS like- but the JC rules says she CAN'T be reg that becuase she has no gray/roan parent. That was my point.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, Amy, You missed the point of your own post. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW, rule IE comes into use only when the parentage of the horse is in question. The color descriptions in no way impact rule E-1

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

E. If a broodmare is bred to two or more stallions during the same breeding season, The Jockey Club will make every effort to eliminate the incorrect stallion or stallions including:

• 1. Genetic typing and parentage qualification;
• 2. Calculation of gestation period; and
• 3. Applying the principles of two-coat color inheritance, that is, a chestnut sire and a chestnut dam must produce a chestnut or, in some instances, a palomino foal; and a gray/roan foal must have at least one gray/roan parent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[Amy]

Two Toofs- that got me curious so I called the Jockey Club- the woman I talked to said in no way can you register a horse as gray/roan unless they have a gray/roan parent. I would register it as the other color with widly scattered white hairs. She even mentioned a horse named I'm Not Gray that fit into the same category as Spot's filly she posted.

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Amy:
She even mentioned a horse named I'm Not Gray that fit into the same category as Spot's filly she posted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm Not Gray is a 1994 bay gelding by Solo Pleasure, a 1977 Bay mare, and out of by Cavanagh Special, a 1985 gray horse (who was by the grey Jacques Who, who was by the grey, Grey Dawn). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[Amy]

I did not look the horse up- just relied on what the JC woman told me. Her point was that you could not register a horse as gray unless there was a gray parent. If she was incorrect on the other oh well. Unless she is wrong on that as well.

[Palomino Leopard WB]

Amy...I would not worry about what was posted. The fact that the horse is listed as a bay means nothing as we have already seen in regards to how the JC registers these horses.

[Spot]

I think the DUMBEST, bar none, move the JC has done is to register all of the Puchilingui (maximally expressed sabino's with either bay or chestnut as their base coats) as grey / roans.
Now - how STUPID is that?!

Now the stupidity and errors WILL be perpetuated through the generations, because they have Neon Native, Puchi's Rambo, Artic Color, Artic Squaw, Padrama etc all registered as grey/roans, so when they throw a maximally expressed sabino that is white/almost white it will also be classified as a grey/roan because there IS a grey/roan parent (at least according to the JC's interpretation, there is anyhow ... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif )

That is where it is gratifying to see cases like Ryeesin Up, where she has been correctly registered as a dark bay/brown

"Spot"

[Amy]

You know Spot I *could* see them classifying those foals as gray/roan IF as TT says they are going strictly on what it LOOKS like and not what it really is. TT says it is for visual identification only on the track. Ok I can buy that. But I still don't see how a cremello classified as a chestnut is visually an accurate description. And lets not even talk perlino.

[PaintBy#s]

Hey guys I am Hijacking the thread back LOL-

Does anyone know if RFF's EL Dorado (cremello TB) is standing to the public this year?

I couldnt get anything fromt he site but I had thought they overed him AI only...

[Amy]

I am sure Mylinda will post here if she sees this- but when I was talking to the breeding manager last week she said they had no plans to stand him to the public right now for lc. Ai yes. They do have a palomino stud King's Ransom that you can get a LCF guarantee on if you like. I WISH they would stand ED LC... I would have a mare down there TOMORROW! LOL!

Norsire stands her stud LC- but his book is full she posted for this year.

[PaintBy#s]

I hope she does AMy! I've got to call her soon anyways to ask more about ED and get a recent stallion video from her... I figured save the trouble of phoing her just yet just to find that out..

Thankfully in my situation AI will do the best...the mare is an Oldenburg/TB X so I wouldn't need the LC anyways...

[Amy]

From what I understand they only LC the other stallions for JC papers anyway. All the rest is AI.

[milynda milam]

ASOC, you can email me or give me a call for more information on El Dorado. I don't think we will be offering him at all this year. I have been unable to update my website for almost two months (new computer + my lack of web savvy = problems), but I hope to have it resolved this week and post it then.

With El D in training, a very busy foaling season, plus me pregnant, we just made the decision not to try to juggle him between the farm and the trainer. I have done it with the other stallions over the past several years and it just wears me out. I am not up to living in the truck being stallion taxi this year, so El D gets to take a year off. We are not even using him ourselves--he will stay at the trainer.

The good news is that his first foal arrive this year, everything from Paints to Belgian draft crosses, so we'll have a good idea of what the offspring will look like.

Milynda Milam
Red Fox Farm
Home of the Custom Color Sporthorses
http://www.redfoxfarm.com

[Amy]

Hey Milynda~ Congrats on being prego yourself! When is the baby due??

I hope to get my mare to you after you have a few foals on the ground so I can drool over them!

[Spot]

I didnt know that Milynda was "coming out of the closet" with her news, so now that she has - a big official and public congrats from me as well! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Spot"

PS - will you have a "foal cam" so that we can all watch the birth live and see what you have as well?! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[hunt_jump]

Congrats Milynda! When are you due?

~ hunt_jump ~
http://home.cfl.rr.com/huntjump

[aurum]

Milynda, please do not forgot to tell everyone that this is an American-German co-production! I guess I was the first to know it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gwendolyn
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Milynda, please do not forgot to tell everyone that this is an American-German co-production! I guess I was the first to know it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

???? ... what the heck ???? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Did you set up the conception or something between her and Detlef? or - oh! - because he is GERMAN you want to take some of the credit for her being pregnant! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
NOW I get it ... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Spot"

[PaintBy#s]

COngrads mylinda! I'm so happy for ya! LOL. Sorry to hear about ED but I understand! I still gotta call and ask about him etc... maybe next year http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Amy:
You know Spot I *could* see them classifying those foals as gray/roan IF as TT says they are going strictly on what it LOOKS like and not what it really is. TT says it is for visual identification only on the track. Ok I can buy that. But I still don't see how a cremello classified as a chestnut is visually an accurate description. And lets not even talk perlino.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you even read the descriptions? You all seem perfectly satisfied with the new description for palomino, when in reality it is taken directly from the description for chestnut, and adding that the mane is "usually" flaxen instead of "usually" the same color as the rest of the coat. The coat description for palomino is exactly the same as it was in the chestnut category (and is still a part of the chestnut category).

*I* know that when it says "grey or roan" that it means a horse who has the majority of the coat is a mixture of white hairs and some other color, and "chestnut" on JC papers means a horse where the "entire coat of the horse may vary from a red-yellow to a golden-yellow." and any horse that falls within that description should say "Chestnut" on the papers. It's really not that hard and quite easy to memorize in a very short session. Yet you find this unacceptable for a description of a horse that is genetically a palomino.

So now you have the "palomino" category which is a horse where "the entire coat of the horse is golden-yellow", and now you find it acceptable? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Or perhaps we should just change "Chestnut" to "Horse Carrying Chestnut Gene". Better? sheesh......

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[milynda milam]

Thank you thank you everyone!

I am due Aug. 27th. Great timing on my part--I will be big and pregnant through our Texas summer. We're very happy, though, so I'm not complaining.

Yes, it is a German-American joint production. As far as what it will be--since I am a bay and Detlef is a cremello, I am expecting it will be a buckskin, which is my favorite color.

Even though I am only 16.2, Detlef is 19.2 (yikes!), so I think our "foal" will mature tall.

My main concern is that Detlef wears a size 8 hat, so I'm wondering how big the head on this thing is going to be!

What is funniest to me is that when I told my Mom the news, including the fact that I "took" on the first try, she just patted my hand and told me, "Well, honey, you're just a good broodmare like the rest of the women in your family." LOL! There is no doubt I come from horse people!

[Amy]

Two Toofs- I am really pretty much done with this conversation until you can show me where perlino and cremello fit into the color categories.


Mylinda~ YOU CRACK ME UP! I hope your 'foal' doesn't take 11 months to arrive though! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Spot]

I notice that Milynda didnt answer the part on the "Live Foal Cam" during foaling! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Spot"

[Albion]

Well, aren't cremellos and perlinos golden-ish in hue (I honestly don't know, I'm not into the palominos & their subvarients)? And honestly, how many cremellos or perlinos - out of the thousands and thousands of horses at tracks across the US - are there? I've never seen one on race day. Since you have to pretty much SPECIFICALLY breed for double dilutes - right? - chances are racing ability is NOT the first priority of color breeders. Otherwise, they would be race breeders, not sporthorses of color breeders. Are there enough to warrent creating whole new descriptions for a tiny percentage of horses that are ACTUALLY at the track and ACTUALLY racing?

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

[aurum]

albion,
this discussion is about naming the correct color on a horses papers as the horses papers are its only identification aside of brands etc. There are also thousands of Warmbloods that are dark colored, chestnut or grey and only a handful of Palomino, Cremello, Perlino, Buckskin etc colored WBs do exist BUT the associations are writing the CORRECT color in the horses pedigree instead of a wrong one. I find it very essential that the correct color is mentioned in a horses paper to avoid any fraud. There have been people saying that an albino horse was born to two black colored TBs well that is not possible! First Albino does not exist in horses and second these two horses carried the cream gene, so were in fact smoky blacks and no blacks but since there is nothing in their papers than chestnuts and bays of which certainly a bay or a chestnut are in fact a buckskin or a palomino. the whole matter made the European JCs think that this was a mutation! If the correct colors would have been in the pedigrees someone would have been able to trace back were that "mutated albino" came from! I cannot understand why people like Two Toofs are so vehement against a correct color description, as it is a necessary thing to identify a horse correctly and especially in these days of more and more fraud. A Czech breeder bred his normal colored TB mare to a dark colored TB stallion and the outcome was a Palomino foal, since nobody knew about genetics and the horses were registered bay and chestnut instead of buckskin and palomino. He was found guilty of breeding fraud and the foal did not get papers. This man was a Count and he then opened his own studbook and he was also the one that invented the steeplechase of Pardubice. Horses from his breeding won several times the Great Pardubice Steeplechase. This whole discussion is just to make clear that correct color identification makes life very much easier!

Gwendolyn
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[ruthie]

Ok, one more ...sigh...post. how about this. We all agree with you Two Toofs that the color descriptions are varied enough to include color coat descriptions of palomino, buckskin and smoky black. Where are you going to classify the cremello and perlino? They certainly do not fit the description of white or grey. The point here really is that the JC's color descriptions are too varied and so are incorrect. The JC needs to change and tighten and thus modify the coat color descriptions. Those descriptions need to be changed and based on color genetics. It is here to stay and as much as people do not "say it matters" in all reality if you price a palomino at the same price as a chestnut. The palomino will sell first. And for the sake of cutting the argument about performance, let's assume they are compatible in performance and conformation and breeding. Talk to an old lady at the track and I am sure she will tell you she is betting on the one that appeals to her eye and that my friend is a fact. Correct or not, breeding specifically for or not, COLOR is an extremely HOT TOPIC. And as business people we need to be aware of this and consider it. Do I think the bay and other colors will go to the wayside. No, there is always a following based on a specific color. Me personally-- am a sucker for a clear coated red/mahogany colored bay with clearly marked points and a roman nose to boot. I am also a Mr. Prospector die hard fan. So you see there is always someone out there who will be interested in your "color" or your "line"
So what does everyone say about a betting pool on Milynda's Birthing day? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I say a buck a square and who wants to create it ....how about you Spot? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Palomino Leopard WB]

Great news Milynda! Now if your feeling the least bit overwhelmed with all those horses this year I would be more than happy to take a couple off of your hands. Aggie is requesting a couple cute Palomino TB girls http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif who will play with him a bit nicer than Star.

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ruthie:
The JC needs to change and tighten and thus modify the coat color descriptions. Those descriptions need to be changed and based on color genetics.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? We don't really seem to be having a problem with it - only a very select few breeders of "rare" thoroughbreds. What if the categories were labled "Coat A", "Coat B", "Coat C", etc.? You all are really just concerned about those coat colors that concern you, not what is best for the registry and those whom it is meant to serve. I see no one complaining about the "dark bay or brown" category including more than one coat color of horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It is here to stay and as much as people do not "say it matters" in all reality if you price a palomino at the same price as a chestnut. The palomino will sell first.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, until the JC added the palomino coat description, the palomino TB owners were all advertising chestnut thoroughbreds for sale and at stud? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[Amy]

Two Toofs- but what IF a cremello Tb went to the track and was listed as a chestnut.... are you saying you all would be FINE with that?

And why not change the color IF they exist. I mean how much money would that cost??? Not much I imagine.

So your stand on reg. cremellos as chestnuts is that it is fine because there are not that many of them and they are not at the track. Who cares for accuracy because it does not affect the track anyway. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Amy:
Two Toofs- but what IF a cremello Tb went to the track and was listed as a chestnut.... are you saying you all would be FINE with that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So long as they fit into the coat description, then yes. Perfectly fine. Our identifiers are competent enough to know what the rules are and compare all identifiers to the horse. If they don't fit into an existing, make up a new category or modify a current one - have at it. But don't dare tell us that we are going to have to start paying extra to verify the genetic color of our horses, something that is of no interest to 99.99999% of users of the registry so that you can try to more quickly identify those horses that you'd like to scheme out from under someone else. And please don't anyone say that we don't have to, because if the rule were to be enacted, anyone who has a light chestnut with a flaxen mane and tail (which are not all that completely uncommon) would be required to pay extra fees and go through extra trouble. Unless, of course, you fine with the fact that it might actually be a palomino and the owner chose not to do the testing and it were to be registered as chestnut. Then how on earth would you all fight, scheme & fraud to locate and purchase the dam? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So your stand on reg. cremellos as chestnuts is that it is fine because there are not that many of them and they are not at the track. Who cares for accuracy because it does not affect the track anyway. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My stand is that if the horse fits into a description that is already available, that NO we should not have to revise our entire registry of the Jockey Club to suit the needs of select few who see themselves as some sort of revisionists and saviors for our registry because "We are doing it wrong". (And "oops, we didn't think that no AI rule applied to us either. After all, we aren't racing them so we'll just do as we please, damn the rule book.")

Especially those who claim "We are doing it wrong" without even bothering to read or understand the rules that are already in place (apparently purposefully in some instances, I might add). Rules that we in the racing industry seem to have no problem whatsoever understanding, but then again, we don't care about bragging rights as to something so trivial as the color of our horses. Only the performance. So we like to keep coat descriptions simple and really don't care for 874 categories. As a matter of fact, we've narrowed down and decreased the descriptions over the years to simplify something that is so trivial when it comes to what matters in our breed and to cut down on having to issue corrected certificates when it comes time to tattoo and there is a woman or gentleman who actually has read the rule book comparing the description to the horse.

When breeding for and selling Jockey Club horses to race, being grey does not automatically add a minimum 20% onto the price. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Should we also have separate notations for horses whose ears turn in? Or walleyed horses? How about a check box that says "Flashy" or "Plain"? Should we do away with tattooing because it doesn't effect horses that don't race? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And BTW, the Jockey Club did create an entirely separate registry for those who had TBs and wanted them registered for non-racing purposes only. Except that none of these "sport horse" owners wanted to bother with it. (It is still available to you all, btw.) Perhaps some are upset that the Jockey Club doesn't really think anything more of your "rare" palomino thoroughbreds than they do any other thoroughbred and doesn't really care to afford you special treatment. Or give you a medal or a cookie or whatever.

And I still don't see anyone valiantly leading the fight for those poor "brown" thoroughbreds that are lumped in with "dark bays". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[aurum]

Two Toofs, you just don't WANT to get it, so why bother to discuss that with you any longer?
You are right and basta, and thats it.

Gwendolyn
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[PaintBy#s]

Hey everyone.

My only thoughts on this, and I was kinda waiting to see if someone else brought this up (so I wouldnt have to LOL)....

But- If you look at Thoroughbreds as a BREED, regardless of what their "jobs" are... in nowdays it seems that there is a HEAVILY diverse "market" for them, and a majority of that is APHA/TB circuits ( the dilutes included since they are the "trend") and the sporthorse market. There are a LOT of breeders that breed exclusively for dilutes/double dilutes.

They also NEED their JC papers and they HAVE to be correct (color) for their purposes.

I don't understand what the big deal is? The world and all of its aspects EVOLVE with time and there for NEED *changing*, that is what history is about... we learn and improve.

Those race breeders are NOT breeding for color, will probably NEVER have a dilute actually racing so why are they so upset? there is NO money involved for them to *specially* register their horses. Its the Sporthorse disciplines that ARE paying./... and they are HAPPILY paying for what they want...

the only thing I can see that affects race breeders is that they have to be a little clearer in registration (which means a simple extra box to check off for color)...

Now I may be way off base, but this is how I perceive this situation...?

If I were a race breeder (I'm not) I wouldnt have a problem with these new rules. Maybe a little more of a hassle for me, but atleast recognize people in OTHER areas of horses and respect what the NEED... as they respect what other people/discplines need.

This isn't some BS ploy to ruin and hassle the racing industry...

[WishYouWereHere]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>My stand is that if the horse fits into a description that is already available, that NO we should not have to revise our entire registry of the Jockey Club to suit the needs of select few who see themselves as some sort of revisionists and saviors for our registry because "We are doing it wrong". (And "oops, we didn't think that no AI rule applied to us either. After all, we aren't racing them so we'll just do as we please, damn the rule book.")

Especially those who claim "We are doing it wrong" without even bothering to read or understand the rules that are already in place (apparently purposefully in some instances, I might add). Rules that we in the racing industry seem to have no problem whatsoever understanding, but then again, we don't care about bragging rights as to something so trivial as the color of our horses. Only the performance. So we like to keep coat descriptions simple and really don't care for 874 categories. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

amen sistah

why dont you wanting to breed for a sporthorse use the phr instead of trying to change the jc - which is fine the way it is and was developed by and for RACE horses

[PaintBy#s]

*wishyouwerehere*- We would use the PHR but I believe A) they are not "real" active, and B) we CAN'T use them for horses that need to be "dual registered" for the APHA circuits and I believe that the PHR is not accepted by many other registries.

If someone could get the funds/sponsors/support to have a registry for those thoroughbreds that could compete and work WITH the other registries and be accepted by other registries, then we would probably do that...that is a lot of work and how willing would other registries be to work with it like they do the JC....?

[aurum]

Well thank God the TB is a European breed and was created in the motherland Great Britain. Apparently all other JCs of the world, except the American one ! - is PRO having the correct colors on the papers no matter if racing or not, a TB has the right to have the correct color on its papers FOR identification as much as any other horse! That has absolutely nothing to do with racing it is a MUST for correct identification and who does not understand that must be very narrow minded. And only TBs with JC papers are allowed to breed in other Associations so no way to have a PHR TB get influence in the WB breeds for example. I also think that more dilutes or Pinto TBs would be on the race track if they would not be so rare and so precious that most people do not want to risk their health on the race track. I would not have raced any of my two foals but I will send an offspring to the race track one day and then we will see.

Gwendolyn
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[PaintBy#s]

Has a seperate registry attempted creation? (like the PHR)...is there even any interests in it?

[hunt_jump]

I think that a few years ago someone in in the US tried starting a new TB performance registry, but I'd have to go do some research to find out more information. To be of any use for the majority of sporthorse people though a new TB registry would need the support of tha AQHA, APHA, and most if not all of the WB associations to get off the ground IMO. Thoroughbreds of a different registration (be it PHR or another new TB registry) are of no real use to breeders who seek registration papers from the previously mentioned associations because they are not recognized.

I am not a breeder (at least not yet), but I would love to see a new TB registry get off the ground, with the support of these other associations, with the sporthorse vision. The idea of a new TB registry which would use JC registered foundation stock and then allow JC horses be used in breeding, AI breeding, and the recognition of other breed associations is definitely an interesting one in my mind.

~ hunt_jump ~
http://home.cfl.rr.com/huntjump

[PaintBy#s]

Hey HJ-

If it's not too much of a hassle, I'd love to know more about that registry.

If it were in my eyes and it was *my* plan, the only way it would even be created was IF I had the support of the APHA/AQHA and a good portion of the WB registries ( I'd like to have all of them, but not a neccesity)

I would work it almost identical to the JC... where it was just a pedigree on paper, with the color age breeder etc... no "approvals" would be incorporated ( atleast not to start) and I would allow the JC horses in ( but I kinda wanna say, if they WORK WITH me, then I will allow them in LOL)

I'd be more inclined to put my money into the showing side of the registered horses...Like with the APHA circuit and AQHA circuit shows/points.

Then we could have the colors done correctly and to our most benefit and not bother the racing people. BUT even with a new registry, there will still be those that go to the JC...

AI/Frozen would be allowable, and we'd have the website with stallions and breeders etc...

Anyways... that was the idea is *my* head.

[hunt_jump]

I will see what I can pull up on it. I didn't get a chance to finish my post above (I'm at my parent's house and things are crazy as we have two extra Adults and two children here).

I think if I remember correctly that one of the things that made me immediately think that the "new" registry wouldn't fly was the simple fact that they hadn't gotten support of other associations. I don't think that any new TB association will really make an impact on the sporthorse world without that support.

I agree that I would like to see a registration association geared toward TB sporthorses very similar to the JC with a few exceptions. A sporthorse division of the JC would be perfect, but I don't see that happening. The idea of TB shows somewhat like APHA/AQHA shows is interesting.

~ hunt_jump ~
http://home.cfl.rr.com/huntjump

[showjumpers66]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASplashOfChampagne03:
Hey guys-

I know "1/2" the answer to my question but I thought this would be a good topic of general knowledge...Those colored TB breeders out there... and perhaps (way back when when the TB colors weren't known) Did colored TB horses hit the track?

If so, what kind of track? (small leagues, big leagues)...what kind of purses...AKA... How seriously were they campaigned as track horses?

I know Racey, and some sibling/offspring have ran on the track... I *think* pretty decently (Its been a long time since I kept up with my racing disctionary). I also know Colorwordl has gotten some very nice...sabino mares off the track also.

I also think one of the all white sabinos raced also (if my memory serves me correctly).

How was this looked at? did these horses race well? were they judged by their color?

And nowadays...why aren't more colored horses out there on the tracks?( By colored i mean... LOUDer sabino and or dilutes etc)

I understand the injury aspect...but this is likely in and discipline...

I was just thinking the other day, what I would do if I turned on ESPN to look at racing and saw a blurb like " Palomino horse XX entered this year in the triple crown series".....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Back to the original post ... how many successful, colored TB racehorses are there? Winning of less than $50,000 (chump change) or no stakes races does NOT count. Are there any? Who are they? Have they in turn produced successful race offspring?

I have visited the sites of many of the colored TB breeders and have yet to find a successful colored racehorse. Lots of winners in under $10,000.

Quantum Leap Farm (http://www.quantumleapfarm.com/~bsikkink/)

[PaintBy#s]

No prob. I know about the hectic "back home" situatins http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I agree... the registry would HAVE to have support by the other registries...but that brings me back to a point... how willing are they?...I wonder if the PHR tried and the other registries simply said "no".

What would be your "exceptions" (Im curious). Does the JC work with PHR?...Would they work with a new registry?

Thanks Quantum Leap... I should have clarified that... although, I'd really like to know about ANY racing,b ut it does not really matter unless they are making good $$ and are stakes racers.

Is it because the colored TB breeders are so worried about "risking" the stock?

You see the sabino's and the heavily marked sabino's out there a lot more....

[Albion]

I doubt it's about 'risking' the stock - what's the point of sending a horse (that you have really bred for the sport market) to the track, esp. ones that have not been bred for sheer talent on the track? It's not like these loud-colored foals are coming from Storm Cat - if I were breeding for the sport horse market, I wouldn't want to waste a large chunk of change sending a horse to the track when it wasn't really BRED to be at the track. If a fabulous sire of runners was loudly colored, I'm sure race breeders would breed to him - but not because of color.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

[jilltx]

Is this the registry that someone mentioned?? I've seen it before , but honestly I have not checked it out.

http://www.tasregistry.com/

Thoroughbred and Anglo Sporthorse Registry (TASR)

~Jilltx
http://doobage.redirectme.net/horses/kelly2.jpg

"Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go 'round" ~ Freddie Mercury "Queen"

[Spot]

showjumpers66 - there are a LOT of successful colored TB race horses!

Marquetry
Time To Explode
Sunny's Halo
Contrary Rose
Explodent
Naevus
Umrigar
how about ... Northern Dancer and his offspring!
etc, etc

Now - I am well aware that NONE of these breeders went out intentionally to create a colored superstar race horse, and they could have all cared less if they were plain bays if they won what they won, but the fact does remain that there have been plenty of successful sabino race horses out there.

Has some TB breeder now taken their succesful sabino colored stakes winning mare and intentionally bred her to a successful, sabino colored stakes winning sire?
I highly doubt it as the TB breeders dont operate that way, but it also sure doesnt mean that they dont exist and they havent been a success on the track either.

"Spot"

[hunt_jump]

JillTx beat me to it. I think that is the registry. I don't know too much about it, but I just sent them an email, so we'll see if I learn anything new in the coming days.

As far as the "exceptions" I would like to see AI allowed in a sporthorse registry is the main exception. I also agree that I would like to see the registration records correctly reflect the genetic color of these horses so that we have information on for the future "lost generations" (ok I really wanted to stay out of that discussion).

~ hunt_jump ~
http://home.cfl.rr.com/huntjump

[PaintBy#s]

Albion- I was meaning if they were of race quality http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But I agree with you about why send a horse and pay $$ if thats not what they were BRED for... but such horses like Tuxedo.. bred to a nice sabino race mare....track quality, etc...

I've looked at TASR..but need to look more closely, I'm not sure if if that's what HJ was talking about or not http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


Spot- Aren't the patchen beauty foals ( and she has thrown some foals like herself, and she is bred to race stock only I believe) still racing?

[PaintBy#s]

LOL and HJ beat me... I will look into TASR also... and sorry HJ for draggin ya into the discussion...

[hunt_jump]

Oh, not a problem. It was just the running around in a circle for four pages that was getting tiresomehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The idea of a sporthorse TB registry or sporthorse section is something that I really like. From what I have seen from looking at the TASR website, I don't think that they have what it is going to take to be "the" TB sporthorse registry or maybe at least not yet. But I want to also add that that statement may be completely incorrect and unfair as I do not know much about the registry. But the premiss of their registry seems right (even if the execution is a little different than what we are thinking).

~ hunt_jump ~
http://home.cfl.rr.com/huntjump

[PaintBy#s]

I look forward to hearing back from them, but I tend to agree that they may be going at a different angle then what we are thinking...

[hunt_jump]

I will let you know if I find anything out from them.

Splash, you have a PT response.

~ hunt_jump ~
http://home.cfl.rr.com/huntjump

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASplashOfChampagne03:
Does the JC work with PHR?...Would they work with a new registry?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The JC started the PHR especially for those who owned and bred TBs and half TBs for purposes other than racing.

There was little to no interest. They gave you what you want, but no one wanted it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[PaintBy#s]

I had thought the JC started the PHR but I wasn't sure...

And unfortunately TwoToofs, I wasn't around or active in the sporthorse industry or TB's when the pHR was formed, and now... I think its pretty inactive so there's no chance at rejuvenating the PHR... so the only other alternative is to start anew... I'd like to here from the colored TB people if they would be interested...

I think the PHR failed because they didn't have the other regitries support....but again thats my *opinion* not fact...

If a TB registry got the support from the APHA/AQHA and the WB registires I think there would be a WHOLE lot more interests...especially if it could be built with the points and show circuits like the APHA/AQHA has...

[hunt_jump]

I am not a breeder, but as far as I can tell the reason the sporthorse people are involved with the JC is because to use the TB influence in sporthorse breeding mares and stallions must be registered with the JC (among other requirements) for their offspring to be registered in most associations (APHA, AQHA, and most WB associations). PHR horses are not recognized and as far as I can tell have little use as breeding stock for these associations breeders.

I do not know all of the details of the PHR, but didn't a horse simply have to be a certain percentage TB to be registered with the PHR (not 100% TB)? Did they have different books for full TBs and for part TBs?

~ hunt_jump ~
http://home.cfl.rr.com/huntjump

[showjumpers66]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spot:
showjumpers66 - there are a LOT of successful colored TB race horses!

Marquetry
Time To Explode
Sunny's Halo
Contrary Rose
Explodent
Naevus
Umrigar
how about ... Northern Dancer and his offspring!
etc, etc

Now - I am well aware that NONE of these breeders went out intentionally to create a colored superstar race horse, and they could have all cared less if they were plain bays if they won what they won, but the fact does remain that there have been plenty of successful sabino race horses out there.

Has some TB breeder now taken their succesful sabino colored stakes winning mare and intentionally bred her to a successful, sabino colored stakes winning sire?
I highly doubt it as the TB breeders dont operate that way, but it also sure doesnt mean that they dont exist and they havent been a success on the track either.

"Spot"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spot, the whole point of this topic (before it went on another tangent) was colored racehorses. The moderate and minimal sabino is quite common in the TB ... I KNOW that! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif But, who are the LOUD sabinos or dilutes??? They are not common. When bred by chance are they good racehorses? I'll give you the 3 moderates below, but just 3 out of thousands??

Marquetry - minimal
Time To Explode - moderate
Sunny's Halo - minimal
Contrary Rose - moderate
Explodent - could not find photo
Naevus - moderate
Umrigar - have never heard of him / could not find photo
Northern Dancer - VERY minimal

Quantum Leap Farm (http://www.quantumleapfarm.com/~bsikkink/)

[showjumpers66]

The Oaks in California worked very hard to get PHR off the ground.

Quantum Leap Farm (http://www.quantumleapfarm.com/~bsikkink/)

[PaintBy#s]

Ok I just went back to check something someone emailed me about...

The PHR has been taken over by the USEA...And they have year end awards...

What does this mean?

Is there anyway of getting them to change some of the goals or add goals and maybe we can create a new registry within the PHR so to speak...

Showjumpers... do they have a contact?

[showjumpers66]

PHR (http://www.equestrian.org/phr/)

Quantum Leap Farm (http://www.quantumleapfarm.com/~bsikkink/)

[maple_brook]

I can't find the picture anymore, but I thought I saw a picture once of What A Pleasure that showed a big ol white belly spot. Would you consider that moderate?

Linda
Proud Mom of R.A.J.J.I.B.S
http://www.geocities.com/maple_brook

[Spot]

Here is a photo of Umrigar. I would consider him to be a pretty definate sabino!

Contrary Rose had 4 high stockings, big bald face, about 6-8 inches of white on the base of her tail and massive roaning from the girth on back. I would consider that pretty darned strong sabino/rabicano markers!

"Spot"

[showjumpers66]

Is Umrigar a stakes winner?

Quantum Leap Farm (http://www.quantumleapfarm.com/~bsikkink/)

[Spot]

I am *pretty* certain he is, but dont hold me to that.
I was looking at him to breed my Puchi Trap mare to last year and I believe his earnings were over $100,000.00 and that was with not very many starts before he got injured, so they were stakes wins or stakes places - cant remember which.

This is another picture of him

"Spot"

[Galileo1998]

Umrigar earned $86,424USD and had 23 starts. He won a Maiden Special Weight and two allowance races.

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Umrigar earned $86,424USD <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so there you go - that means more than $100,000.00 in our crummy CAD dollars .. just kidding ... I KNOW thats not how it works!

And I stand corrected - he didnt win any stakes races. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

"Spot"

[jbonifas]

Spot, where does Umrigar stand?

[aurum]

hunt_jump, you are correct, ONLY JC papered horses can be entered and get approval for Warmblood breeding.

Gwendolyn
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[atom]

Hi all,

very interesting to read this thread. I lern a lot and I would like to hear you opinion about our colored TB. It is a 3 years old mare, here name is Zauberfee. Here mother is Zigeunerliebe from Gidron, father is Legal Bid from Spectacular Bid.
She is in the racing stable in Berlin-Hoppegarten and here trainer give here a lot of chances.
She goes to here first race in march.
Zauberfee is very colored and I think she is a sabino.

What do you think about here ?
In the link are some pictures from the mare.

http://de.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/kinskypferd/album?.dir=/7faf&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//de.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/kinskypferd/my_photos

Picture under saddle was taken in the first weeks in the racing stable.

Thanks a lot, Mandy

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Spot, where does Umrigar stand? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He's about an hour north of us, in King City, Ontario (just north of Toronto International airport)

He's a lovely stallion in person, has a lot of presence about him, well put together, and another neat one to consider for the colored TB market.
They do have him listed with the APHA, but being a racing stable, never bothered to get him registered with them

I would think from a racing perspective, winning $80,000.00 and none of it in stakes company, they will have an uphill slog getting many race mares to him

Atom - I couldnt get your pictures to open???

"Spot"

[atom]

Hi Spot,

thank you, I hope it works yet.

Mandy

[Spot]

HI Mandy - now it works!

She is definately a sabino with the lower white chin, and the stockings that go up over her knee and the other pointy, tall stockings .

She is lovely!

Its really interesting to see the coloured horses from other parts of the world as well

Thanks for letting us know about her

"Spot"

[atom]

Hi Spot,

thanks for the help and the nice comment about Zauberfee.
We have colored warmbloods and my husband breeds TB`s for racing. We have never seen before such a nice collection from colored TB´s. and we was also never thinking that there are peoples breeds the TB´s in such unique colors, it is very very interesting. We hope Zauberfee would be a good racing horse and I will write in the Chronicle about here starts. Is there a market for such a horse ? Or only as unique racing horse ?

Thanks Mandy

[Spot]

we find there is a huge market over here in North America for colored TB's, as long as they are dual registered as Paints with the APHA.
For a colored TB with no dual registration - no - there will not be that much of a market for it.

I believe that the Paint market is quite big in Germany - perhaps it might be a good idea for you to look into getting your mare dual registered, so there is a good market for her and her foals after her racing career is over

"Spot"

[Nikita]

atom, She is gorgeous! I love her baby picture with that great big blaze. So many times when they are babies, those huge blazes look too big for their faces, then they grow into them and the result is beautiful. Good luck with her.

Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.

[jbonifas]

Atom, like you stallion. Looks too cold for this Southern girl.

[Spot]

HI Atom - I asked a pedigree expert who is studying coloured TB's to analyze your girl's pedigree to see where the colour is coming from and this is his response to me:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As per ZAUBERFEE/ZIGEUNERLIEBE I have been told to
keep an eye on Spectacular Bid because of his 2 doses
of To Market which seem to be sabino friendly. There
is also Summer Tan, by Heliopolis, by Hyperion. As per
Gidron, I knew of him because he was an outstanding
horse as reported then by the Thoroughbred Record. He
is carrying a dose from All Moonshine (related to
Hyperion via uterine line). Bois Roussell is also a
suspect on my list. Geografia's lineage is a little
unknown to me. Also note the presence of two tandem
blacks in the presence of BIRDKHAN (1945) and
Alchimist. Also: HEROLD (1917). Also, there are two
doses of DARKIE (1889). That's basically what I see
here.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thought that you may find this interesting!

All the best

"Spot"

[aurum]

Spot, that was truely interesting stuff! I have a Palomino line coming from the French Palomino TB stallion Sylfou xx and this mare also has Birkhahn in her pedigree, the color is Palomino with high white stockings, huge blaze and white chin and a huge belly spot almost covering the whole belly in front of her udder. So I guess Birkhahn might have brought some Sabino in there too.

There was also an all white Sabino TB mare here in Germany and I think she was of the Herold line but I am not sure. Her name was WOHER Which means translated "From Where?" Because nobody knew from where she had gotten her all white coat.

Gwendolyn
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[atom]

Hi,

thank you very much all for the nice compliments about our colored Zauberfee. Spot, I thank you a lot for your help. It is very interesting to know this and to learn more about that. Many many thanks.We hope we have a good racing horse for the future with Zauberfee. I will write in the Chronicle about here, if she goes in the racing courses this year.

We breeds also warmbloods in palomino color from the Czech republic, these horses are called Kinsky horses and Aurum told before the story about the Count Kinsky and his breed. Our warmblood stallion in palomino color Atom has also Sylfou xx in his bloodlines and also many other Kinsky horses.

Thank you !!

Mandy

[Amy]

Two Toofs- I was well aware of the PHR but to me it holds little to no value because it has no affiliation with any other breed. Now a JC tb I can take to many wb registries, APHA, Qh... etc- but a PHR mare is basically nothing but a PHR mare- even though genetically she would be a full tb like any other JC tb.

I am sorry you think the sport breeders are so stupid that we don't read the rule book. Maybe some don't but I have read (online- once again I was never mailed one when I reg any of my Tb's) the parts that pertained to what I was doing. I don't see why it is such a big deal if we want the papers to reflect what you actually SEE and what they are. A cremello is not yellow or any shade of yellow. So why not require the testing (and fees) only when it is necessary based on color pictures or by owner request. I am fully aware of how expensive it is to register a horse with the JC- WAY more expensive than APHA BTW. So a small percentage have to pay more for additional testing- what is it to you since in your view there are so few of them anyway. If WE want to pay more why are you so upset about it? Oh and those FEW that happen to come from other breedings. But heck since a palomino track reject goes for so much more than a chestnut paint reject I would think they would love to have this distinction!


I understand that the vast majority of tb breeding is for the track- but you know once they are washed up there (like so many are) it is the sport breeders and sport riders that make them into something other than a can of dog food. So don't knock us so much.