So we ran an Ad in the COTH and no one called...

[danskbreeder]

With two other breeders I bot a 1/3 page ad in COTH and we ran it but didn't even get a SINGLE call or email. Has anyone else had this experience? Our Ad said "European bloodlines bred in America" , it listed our bloodlines and showed a couple of pics. One thing I'm thinking is that maybe because it ran the week of Memorial Day that the viewership is down. Or maybe it just was too generic? Any ideas suggestions etc? I really would like to sell a couple of horses and thought this would do it. Of course my phone number was listed wrong but I did expect at least ONE call.

[danskbreeder]

With two other breeders I bot a 1/3 page ad in COTH and we ran it but didn't even get a SINGLE call or email. Has anyone else had this experience? Our Ad said "European bloodlines bred in America" , it listed our bloodlines and showed a couple of pics. One thing I'm thinking is that maybe because it ran the week of Memorial Day that the viewership is down. Or maybe it just was too generic? Any ideas suggestions etc? I really would like to sell a couple of horses and thought this would do it. Of course my phone number was listed wrong but I did expect at least ONE call.

[Future Breeder]

I'm confused http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

You say your phone number was listed wrong, yet you are wondering why you didn't get a single call?

[Madame Butterfly]

If at first you don't succeed....(you know the rest...)

but dear, if the phone number was wrong, how would you get a call...telepathy? You better get a psychic.

[The Muffin Man]

Huh.....if the wrong # was listed why are you surprised nobody called you?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

Great minds think alike.

[danskbreeder]

Because there were three of us who ran the Ad together there were three phone numbers listed as well as an email contact. The others got no calls and we did not get a single email. Would buyers be more apt to look at the horses first on a website before calling for the DVD?

[MsHunter]

I am not trying to be rude, but have the horse "done" anything? Are they just "well bred"?

DO they have a show record, have they been started, are they showing?

I don't recall the ad, but people want horses they can ride. When they spend in excess of $600 a month in board, they need to be able to ride them.

It takes a special person or one with their own farm to buy one under the age of 4.

I will be doing an ad shortly in "The Plaid Horse".. I am not expecting much feedback, but hopefully the advertising will do us well.

[Madame Butterfly]

When I had a rocknroll band, we used to pass out tickets on the street...for every 100 we passed out, 1 person would come in....


The secret of success is constancy to purpose.
--Benjamin Disraeli

[danskbreeder]

In answer to the have they done anything question. Actually, my horses are all youngsters ready to get started. As three year olds who haven't "done anything" they sell for 15-18000. I can reccommend several trainers who are very good at starting horses who charge less than $600 a month including training. Once they are doing something these horses will sell in excess of $35,000. Their siblings are doing plenty, Olympics, WEG etc. So I don't think it's unreasonable to think they will too. Once people get over their fears of young horses and look at the economics then they realise how easy it is to buy a youngsters.

[Jo]

First thought that pops into my head is that people reading COTH aren't going to be your target market, as the majority of them would be looking for horses who are ready to step into the show ring.

I'm sure your babies are gorgeous, but maybe sit down and really think about where you should put your marketing $ to reach the people who are looking for youngsters to start.

[danskbreeder]

Thanks
I think that's why I started this thread. Any ideas?

[pwynnnorman]

I'm sorry, Danksbreeder, but if you've sold significant numbers before, you were lucky and if you haven't, join the crowd.

Unless you have a trainer contact, something cooperative that can get your babies mileage--or if you've got a HUGE mover and a good picture of it to boot--it's just not as easy as you seem to think. I've talked with folks with farm names that are huge, with tremendous track records in the show ring (the American arena, that is) and THEY can't get babies sold in that price range.

And you're in Colorado? Heck they aren't selling on the COAST! Times have changed. Waht these folks have said is just dead on: why spend $6K to $12K per year WAITING for something that is plentiful in the same price range, ready to go? Doesn't matter who their siblings are. Americans want to show NOW. Heaven knows what could happen to their investment in the two or three years it would take before it got to the point where the average amy could take it into the ring herself?

The more I think about it--in spite of being a serious breeder, too--the crazier I thing it is to buy a baby for a big price. Most of the time, all that pedigree and potential isn't even USED (I mean, who needs WEG and Olympic breeding to do the A/As?).

I don't know the solution, but young talent just doesn't have a market in this country any more. Sadly, none of those incentive programs seem to have helped, either. (It's probably just a matter of economics, alas.)

[Madame Butterfly]

Pwynnnorman, that is true, but depressing. Does it say anything about our level of riding, or just or level of patience.

I think my lucky stars for my greenie...'course I didn't buy,..I'm just the trainer...Tho I think they've put me on as co-owner... that's okay too...

Makes it hard for breeders, doesn't it? This "made" and "ready for ribbons" concept..People forget that it's not the result, but the journey that counts...

[WindWillowStables]

Well, I have to chime in here. I have been trying to sell some horses too, all well trained..no greenies. They have been on the internet, in tack stores, word of mouth, etc. And I have only recieved maybe 3 phone calls and a couple of emails just saying "can I see more pictures". I don't think horses are selling that well right now. It doesn't help that I am in Florida and in the summer everyone is up north...but still Ocala/Gainesville is a big area. Anyways, thought it would make you feel better that the market is no better down here!

[MistyBlue]

Usually...with print advertising...it's repitition that gets the attention. It's not the "norm" to advertise in print as a one time deal and receive a lot of attention. It's having an ad in print in a magazine (or even newspaper) every circulation for a few months that gets the attention...it's not always a one shot deal.
You might be better off with the other breeders to run a regular, but smaller...ad for a specific length of time and see if interest starts. Familiarity...after some time even if nobody has initially or knows someone who did...after seeing your ad for a few weeks or months they start remembering it even when not looking at it and their brains start thinking "Hmmm, looking for a young prospect..ABC Farms with their frequent ads must be the place to call." Money recouped in print ads is usually over time. Which is why so many publications have better rates for time/package deals.

[JumperFun]

Did you check your website statistics to see if you got more hits than usual after the ad ran? When I see an interesting advertisement, I normally go to the website first, and then call if I like what I see. I'm assuming the website you listed is the one in your profile, and if you don't mind me saying so, your site isn't very informative or well laid out. And I say that as someone that builds large websites for a living. I think that if you check your website stats and see that you did get more hits, but received no phone calls (or emails, since your website doesn't appear to list a phone number) then you can safely assume that the problem lies with the site. Also, Misty Blue is correct that when developing a print marketing plan, you need to have several months of repetition so that readers become accustomed to seeing your name and then you can cut back a bit. Most advertisers aim for approx 9 ads/year in a monthly magazine. And I think you should try to identify your target market, and then find advertising opportunities that will get you the most exposure to that demographic for your money.

[Coreene]

Repetition, repetition, repetition. Your first few ads are merely conditioning the marketplace.

[Hidden Hill Farm]

As a former Marketing Director, I learned a long time ago that you really do need to plan on running at least 6 ads in one place to get name recognition.

Repeating your ad will build familiarity and credibility -- you're not a fly by night kind of set up...

Also, you're most likely not going to sell young stock to COTH readers. Generally speaking, breeders are better off selling foals and horses that are already doing something. We breed, but I also buy a ton of two year olds for eventual resale because that's where I can find the biggest bargains from breeders who have had them sitting around, need to make space and don't want to get them going. Well, we start them, keep them in professional training (here with us) and start showing them. Once they have a bit of a starter show record, then they are offered for sale. I always keep a few less expensive horses for sale just to have a horse for the kid who only has 10-12k to spend, but for the most part, the younger, less expensive horses are not even advertised as they won't sell for what I would want for them no matter where I advertised them.

If you're wanting to sell young stock, you should think about getting to know as many trainers as you can and forget about trying to sell bloodlines because most hunter/ jumper trainers could care less. Their response will be, "great, but can the horse carry the 13 y.o. around the children's hunters and will it swap leads?"

I'm a huge bloodlines person, but most buyers just want a horse that will do the job and win the ribbons. Bloodlines are for breeders.

Please don't take offense to this as I am on your side. However, one ad in a national magazine that is geared towards horses that are already showing is most likely not going to help get your babies sold.

I would suggest getting more involved with your breed registry and perhaps someone like sporthorsebrokers (don't know if they can or can't help, but it may be worth a try).

I advertised Ramiro-Alme 2 year olds with 30 days on them for under 10k merely because I had bought 5 more and guess how many responses I got? NONE.

SO, I said, forget it, they're not for sale. We'll just keep 'em until they're show horses and ask 3 times as much!!!

[ponygrl]

15-18000 for a 3 year old READY to be started?

and do you think that we as humans poop money??

I don't know a single person who could afford to pay that for an unstarted baby. I don't care how fancy it is - its a three year old and will undoubtedly try to decapitate itself as soon as it leaves the farm.

I think young horse prices are ridiculous in this country. I understand that the breeders want to see a profit in the end, so something needs to come down, maybe stud fees?

[CuriosoJorge]

You will only get those prices if it was zone champion in the breeding, is a full sibling to last year's futurity winner, and moves a 10.

Otherwise, good luck, no matter how it's bred.

[Madame Butterfly]

I'm with NotCuriousGeorge. I think in the 80's we were all pooping money so we could fart around with it. May have to lower your prices until you're famous. Or get them trained really fast...

[Hidden Hill Farm]

Part of the problem with horses marketed as "European Bloodlines bred in America" is this: What are they?
The horses, not the bloodlines?
Hunter/ Jumper people want to see:
"Fancy junior/ amateur hunter prospect with a picture of someone on it."
OR
15.3 3/4 with perm card fancy small junior hunter prospect currently showing in the children's hunters and is ready to move up. Plenty of step to make it down the lines, auto changes, scopey enough for 3'6" and will get a good piece of the hack.
OR
Honest, uncomplicated, hansome bay gelding with no vices. Safe for junior or amateur, 100% sound, plenty of local miles.

An add that just says, bloodlines is going to exclude a lot of people. Bloodlines are your specialty as the breeder. The average rider/ trainer sees it as saying, "horse I may or may not be interested in,that I know nothing about that isn't even rideable yet is for sale and I probably can't afford it anyway" Hmmm. most folks will say no thanks.

[Hidden Hill Farm]

Ok, I'm going to elaborate (partially because our ring is under water today and also because I would truly like to help you). I just looked at your website. Unless I was mistaken, I couldn't find a single horse for sale. Also, I did not know if you were selling dressage prospects, jumper prospects, hunter prospects or even any information about your mares.

You need to define yourself in the marketplace. What are you trying to accomplish?
Are you selling young stock?
If so, for what?

I have a friend who breeds dressage horses, but owns a Hanoverian stallion who has thrown successful hunter babies in the past. No one buys his babies for hunter prospects any more because he is owned by a dressage breeder.

It's not a "if we build it they will come industry". Marketing is everything. This industry is really not that different. I would suggest going to the local bookstore and buying some really good books on marketing.

Think about these things.
1. Who are you?
2. What experience, credibility do you have?
3. Why should people buy from you?
4. What do people need that you can provide?
(why shouldn't they just buy from so and so down the street)
5. What are you offering to the market that can't be found anywhere else?


I'll even tell you about my husband and I.
1-2. My husband has been training hunters and jumpers professionally for almost 20 years (can give long list of horses trained, things he's won and references). We've both been showing on the "A" circuit for a combined total of over 55 years (even though we've taken some time off to work with young stock).
3-5 People should buy from us because we are willing to take the initial risk and buy quality hunter prospects for eventual resale. We choose them carefully based on conformation, disposition, bloodlines, movement, free jumping ability and vet exam/ radiographs.
We keep all of our horses in full training until they are sold. They have no "bad" miles and plenty of good miles.
We provide on site guest accomodations so that you may clearly see that there are "no tricks". You can see the horse in the morning, at feeding time, lead it in from the pasture, live with it for a couple days -- see that it was not prepped, drugged, twitched.... You may go hang out with it in the field at night...
We work directly with breeders to and represent over 200 home bred, hand raised horses that are solid, sane, sound and bred for the job that they are doing.... PM me if you want more help.

[Ponybreath2]

I sympathize w/ the seller. And I agree with many of the posters.. I have been doing this a long time. Not to T off COTH, but thier ads cost alot, believe me I have run many. I have rarely sold the horse advertised, but got good prospects from the calls. It's a little like holding an open house in Real Estate. You rarely sell the house that is open, but every person spending time to come in has some kind of interest in buying and selling property. It may be that 2 yrs. later you do business with them. Frankly my advice is to run a classified for a number of runs. And you must have a video tape. If you don't you don't have a sale horse. The odds of selling a prospect in your own area are close to nill. Have a good unbiased pro trainer come in and go through the group and help you with who the talents are and who they are not. Pay them for thier time. As I said to one of my good friends that has a full sister that has been a paranoid schizophrenic since age 22 (she is 50+ now, bless her), lets try to sell you off being your sisters full brother... it doesn't work. The proof is in thier personal ability, not "Who's yer Daddy".There may be markets to help you with your sales. My suggestion would be to find a good young hungry pro that would love to have some nice young prospects to coop with. PT me if you want to hear more of my rantings...Best of luck

[LaurieB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by danskbreeder:
Once people get over their fears of young horses and look at the economics then they realise how easy it is to buy a youngsters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With this statement, you're projecting your attitude of how you would like things to be. Unfortunately, though, it's not how things are. Most buyers now are looking for something that's ready to show tomorrow, if not today.

If the economics makes sense to you (buy these propsects, train them for a couple of years, sell them for more) then I'm afraid you're probably going to have to do the job yourself.

[Policy of Truth]

Actually, it's the statement about economics that has me confused....

If I buy a two yr old for 18k, spend the next year boarding it and them have it trained at the earliest, its 3 yr old year, I've invested a LOT more money than just buying a horse for 25k...and being able to ride it that same day!

I KNOW lots of money goes into breeding and raising youngsters...and I understand that it would be ideal to sell the young ones AND make a profit...but that just isn't realistic in this economy. I know LOTS of people who have very well-bred babies off of IHF-nominated stallions whose siblings win in-hand who are selling for less than what you quoted.

Please understand it is NOTHING against you! TRUST ME! if I thought I could make a living at the one thing I love most with horses (breeding), I would do it in a heart beat...but I know better. One thing that has been drilled into my head is that in the horse world, it takes money to make money...and generally a non-horse career to fund the horse one.

[seal]

I would have to repectfully disagree that there are NO buyers anymore for youngsters. I bought a 2 year old last year. I spent 8 months doing ground work, and now he is at the trainer getting started under saddle. Pasture board does NOT cost $600--I spent $10 a day for an irrigated grass pasture in Southern, California no less. I would think that it would be even less expensive in an area where land and water are not at a premuium.

I came upon the decision to buy an unstarted youngster for many reasons. The biggest reason was quality, soundness and training. You really do get more bang for your buck when you buy a baby and it is so gratifying to do the work myself and to not have to worry about fixing bad habits.

I also disagree about bloodlines. When buying a youngster all you have to go on are bloodlines and conformation. Conformation tells you about form and therefore function and bloodlines tell you a lot about work ethic, disposition and talent. When I went horse shopping in Europe, the horses didn't even have their names on the stalls--just the name of the sire and dam's sire. At the risk of being flamed, it is only the ignorant that chooses to think bloodlines are inconseqential. In this day and age with sophisticated drugging and less than scrupulous agents, bloodlines are everything IMHO. It is very easy to disguise bad behavior with the right cocktail, but the savvy buyer is not so easily duped if they know their bloodlines!

And if I were to buy my 3 year old today he would easily be worth 10-12K more now than for what I paid. Not a bad investment for 8 months, eh? Last year I saw many 3 year olds advertised for 20-30K with only 60 days of under saddle training. He has no bad habits and nothing to *fix* or undo either and he has received correct and proper training.

If I wanted a horse that was already going I would have had to pay at the very least 40-50K and I neither had the money nor did I have the desire to spend that much for a horse.

It may be a niche market, but trust me, there are many people who buy young horses. Many of the sellers I contacted had purchased their horses from breeders, so I got to thinking, if they did it why can't I? I was also encouraged by a breeder to buy a baby in order to find a quality horse for a nice price. Which is what I did and I am very grateful for the wonderful advice and encouragement.

My best advice to you is to advertise within your registry. The NAWPN has a website with a link to breeders and their websites. Use it! I am certain other registries have a similar service. Make sure you have a current and up to date website and sales list. You have to market and develop a reputation as a reputable breeder. Once you have accomplished that, you will find it much easier.

I know I am not that special or unique because I have several friends and aquaintances who have purchased babies. You just have to locate your buyer and I am afraid that kind of person who wants to start from nothing does not go shopping in the COTH. That's like shopping for fabric at Nordstroms. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[JumperFun]

While I agree that there are people out there looking to purchase young horses, I think that some of the other posters were pointing out that COTH was probably not the best magazine for finding those buyers. Also, with an initial purchase price of 15K - 18K, and then a year of board/training (let's assume approx $1000/mo) and 6 shows (very conservatively estimated at $1000/show for 4-5 day long shows), you would have $33,000 invested in the horse at a minimum, and according to danskbreeder, they will be worth 35K+. That's not much of a return on their investment considering the amount of risk involved. So it obviously doesn't make sense for a person without the resources to board/train/show the horse themselves to do this if their goal is simply to have a nice horse to show as a hobby (which I believe is what the vast majority of riders want.) Most people want to go ride or show their horse after a hard day at work, and they don't want to deal with the issues that a greenie has. And most riders aren't capable of dealing with those issues. So the market for young horses is then going to have to be much smaller than the market for made horses. And a smaller market means that you can't charge as much (basic economics there.)

So danskbreeder needs to look seriously at the market that is capable (both in terms of training and finances) of buying and bringing along these young horses and then she needs to figure out how to target that market and what the value of her horses are to those people that are willing to work with young horses.

Also, FWIW, the KAWPN is the Dutch Warmblood registry, not the Danish Warmblood registry. But I agree that the registry would be another good tool for marketing the horses.

And those 3 year olds that have 60 days of training may be advertised for 20-30K, but that doesn't mean that's what they will sell for. And until you actually sell your youngster, there is no way to calculate the actual rate of return on your investment. We've all heard of people "offering" x amount of money for a horse, but until the check is written it all just talk. That's why real estate appraisals are only based on actual sales, not asking prices. The same applies to horses.

[seal]

I also forgot to add that this ignorance of bloodlines tends to be most rampant among the h/j crowd. In dressage, even in the good ole USA, trainers and clincians are VERY interested in bloodlines. That is one of the first questions that is asked of any horse, regardless of age.

In defense of hunter/jumper trainers, I have found that the individuals who have the most experience and success tend to know quite a lot about bloodlines. It is only the group that is totally focused on showing that tends to be dimissive of parentage.

[seal]

Jumperfun,,

I must apologize about the confusion. KWPN is the Dutch registry in Europe. However, the NA/WPN is the Dutch registry for Dutch horses located in North America. Their website is: www.nawpn.org (http://www.nawpn.org)

And yes you are quite right that the market for greenies is small, however, not insignifcant. I have a friend who bought a just backed 3 year old in Europe and she found the horse from an agent via the internet. It can be done. Lots of people want a nice horse but find they either cannot afford to buy the *made* horse or they have been conditioned not to pour all their cash into a horse. You probably do end up spending the same amount of money in the long run, however, most people can better afford to do so on the installment plan.

You still can get a better horse for the money if you have the patience to buy them young before anyone has had a chance to mess them up, either physically or mentally.

And yes, I do agree regarding the COTH as the proper marketing tool for youngsters. As I mentioned before, that is like shopping for bolts of fabric at Nordstrom.

[imapepper]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madame Butterfly:
Pwynnnorman, that is true, but depressing. Does it say anything about our level of riding, or just or level of patience.

I think my lucky stars for my greenie...'course I didn't buy,..I'm just the trainer...Tho I think they've put me on as co-owner... that's okay too...

Makes it hard for breeders, doesn't it? This "made" and "ready for ribbons" concept..People forget that it's not the result, but the journey that counts... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not our level of riding or patience. It's simple economics. If you are an adult amatuer, with a job, riding after work at a boarding facility, it's simply not smart. Board is the same for a yearling as it is for a 5 year old.

As pwynnorman said, for that same money, most folks can find something that is already going.

[hbm]

I agree with MistyBlue and Hidden Hill - some great advice for print advertising. I work in print media and we always advise people that are looking to run one ad about the 3X rule of thumb. The first ad creates initial awareness, the second ad builds on that awareness and gives you credibility and the third ad begins the acceptance process.

[JumperFun]

Seal, sorry, I was really tired when I was posting and I don't think I read all of your post. I do think we are saying similar things. Yes, there are people out there that like to buy greenies (and I totally agree that you can often get a better quality horse if you go that route) but a lot of people don't want or can't deal with the time/training necessary. I actually do buy young ones, but I can keep them at home and do all my own training. I only meet up with my trainer at shows. So my costs are considerably lower.

Anyway, I think danskbreeder has gotten a lot of good advice. I happen to live in the same area as her, and I know that she does advertise in the local mags too, but I think that even those ads need some work to be more professional and focused on her target market. I had never realized she even offered young horses, as I had only seen her ads for breeding and for taking buyers to Denmark. And while I think she may be using someone to help create the ads, I still think that they are not well designed and I'm betting that the COTH ad was similar.

[Giddy-up]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seal:
The biggest reason was quality, soundness and training. You really do get more bang for your buck when you buy a baby and it is so gratifying to do the work myself and to not have to worry about fixing bad habits. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I do agree with you (I buy green & do my own work), not everybody feels the same way. For some people to go looking at unbroke horses is such a crapshoot with their $$$ as they are clueless as to what to look for. Thus why they look for older broke riding horses that they can "try" at least. Also, not many peope have the patience & time to wait and see what the results are. Will the baby turn out to be everything they were told when purchasing or will it turn out to be a dud?? They shell out the $$$, they want to see results...whether it be ribbons or whatever. Which leads me to my next statement of which would a trainer rather have--Horse A is a baby that needs training (not even under saddle yet) & won't be showing for X years or Horse B which can be showing & riding the day after purchase?? A trainer may not be set-up or willing to work with young horses & don't want to risk losing their client so they may naturally steer the client towards a riding horse instead of a young prospect. A lot of people follow their trainer's advice for horse shopping (not that I am saying it's wrong--you are paying for it & it's your choice).

To wrap it up--you can't get mad at people for not wanting to shop outside their comfort zone. Not everybody wants a young horse nor do they want to start from scratch & wait the X amount of years to see what they have. And if it was worth the $$$ & effort required. Some peope just aren't willing or wanting to take the risk. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[findeight]

Look at your competition for the buyer's dollars.
At a AA rated at the KHP last few weeks there were probably 300 horses officially for sale out of the 800 or so showing..these were show horses ready for the buyer to take in the ring.
Prices are falling as the market has been slow and you could have had half of these for between 15 and 35k. Known exactly what they can do. Had the prevet done by the neutral show vet and had the latest xrays handed to you. Be able to ride the thing yourself OVER A COURSE.
Things are still slow doing it this way but much more convenient for the buyer. The buyer who reads COTH.

So, what to do?

Pick up the JULY Practical Horseman and turn to page 21.
"Needed: A Plan for Young Horses-and Young Trainers".

Read it.

If you are marketing for over fences careers and have 3 year old, you are asking a buyer to wait 2 or 3 years.
Even with the best of everything, some youngsters just never will make it to the show ring, despite all the blue blood in the universe, they prove too stupid or arrogant to accept the training, too clumsy to get over the fence with all the parts in the right order or prove to be unsound at an early age.
NONE of this is the seller's fault but buyers want a little more proof of suitability for their level of riding and goals.

Work out something with a young pro hungry for work to get them broke on the flat and going over a small course before you market.

[marianne]

Okay, I'll respond as a recent purchaser of a horse. It took me at least two years to find what I was looking for. I looked at a lot of ads, called on some, emailed others etc. Some of the farms I looked at are "bookmarked" on my computer for future reference. I will be needing a young rider horse in about four years and I am starting to look for that one now. But I am also looking at young stock for future reference. I did look up your website. It was the most unhelpful site I have seen in a long time. This was from your postings here. I have not seen the ad yet in COTH. So while you may have not had a nibble yet, there are many of us out there who are looking and researching. And we will pay good money for value. But on that note, I did look at a pony earlier this spring who needed training but did have an appraisal from Alex Jayne for a value of $50k. After looking at the videotape and seeing the pony in person, he was not worth more than $10K. I felt I was justified as this pony had sat in the pasture for the last 2-3 years without a decent track record. And this was an imported Westphilian sportpony. The horse I did buy I felt was very fairly priced and I paid it without a squawk.

[LEP Enterprises, LLC]

I saw your ad, it was nicely done. I don't think its a waste of time to get your name out. But I like the advice peole are giving you of running classified for several weeks, rather than ponying up the big money for a picture ad for one week.

Good luck with your horses. I think you are getting some very good advice on this thread about marketing and knowing your audience.

[Tiramit]

I'm a marketer / advertiser who has to deal with advertisements and campaigns for a living. The rule is that someone needs to see an advertisement at least 3 times for it to register. We're bombarded with so many ads each day that we tend to tune them out.

Sometimes luck happens and, with a fantastic ad run in the right place (what was the focus of that issue?), people will call right away, but it has to be a really well written, eye-catching advertisement.

I don't recall your ad, but I bet if you all ran it a couple more times, you'll have better success.

[dray]

Hello,
I'm late to the "show" here. I'm Donna ray of Carson Farm and one of the other breeders who co0oped the ad. It was a 1/3 page ad. Three photos.
1. Three year old
2. mare/foal
3. Grand Prix dressage mare being ridden (by me).

There was no web site listed. We made a sales list to send out. There was a phone number under each ad and one email address for contact for nayone with quesitons or who wanted a video/CD/DVD. One phone number was incoorect in the area code.

So the ad did talk about horses UNDER SADDLE as well as young ones ready to go.

I am implementing a Furutre Ribbons Program wiht Danskbreeder. I am taking the young horses and startign them under saddle for $600 per month including board. Horses have to be insured by the owner and have good ground manners. That's about my only stipulation.


Jo and a few others cited some good reasons to buy a young horse. I'll get Cathy, the other participant to post the actual ad.

Thanks for the input.
Donna
Carson Farm (http://www.sportequine.com)

[Coreene]

Just an aside on ad prices. For the readership that they deliver, and because it is so targeted, COTH is an exceptionally good buy. Many pubs with that specialized a circ would cost three times that.

[dray]

I agree with Coreene. We thought that we had good value with COTH ad rates.

I, like many of you who are posting, also make my living in sales and marketing. I will say that this is the first time I have run a print ad with NO nibbles. This is not an issue revolving around branding or logo recognition. We aren't selling Secret deoderant. There were three photos, alternates for telephone and email contact. No web site listed.

Even the first time I ran an ad in Hunter Sport Horse and Equus, the local Southwest Horse Trader, etc. I got calls and sold horses. We're just trying to figure out what we could have done differently.

[2ndyrgal]

The only thing that really gets me about ads in COTH(or any other magazine) is a phone number without any location. At least let me know what STATE you're in, if I don't recognize the area code, and there is no state listed, I'm not going to take time to call directory assistance and find out where area code 123 is. If the state is reasonably close (or somewhere that might seem nice in February) I'll call. And it sounds like if the phone # was wrong, they should comp you a little something on an ad.

[dray]

We had an email address in the ad. No long distance calls would have been needed. However, you bring up a good point. The states were Colorado and Texas....also the reason we're moving to SC as soon as we can.

We're not blaming the magazine and will run ads in the future.

[poltroon]

Having the location in the ad isn't about the cost of the phone call. If I'm in California (and I am) and you're in Virginia I'm pretty much not going to call - because it's not likely that I'll travel that far to see the horse or ship the horse.

Pretending that I'll call if I can't guess the state is not likely to work. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Honestly - I hate using the phone. Plus, I am generally busy during working hours, well, working.

Next time, put the website in the ad. Take the time to list your sale horses and put some great copy and drop-dead photos in there with them. List on your website the other great things they can do in the area when they visit your farm. If they can stay in a guest house or something, say so. Get people salivating about how much they want that horse. Then they'll start thinking about how they can come visit and give you that call.

[findeight]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seal:
Pasture board does NOT cost $600--I spent $10 a day for an irrigated grass pasture in Southern, California no less. I would think that it would be even less expensive in an area where land and water are not at a premuium.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, what a pat statement. I invite you to do pasture board where temps plunge to -20f and the outside arena is 6 inches of ice that melts and rethaws over a cupped base every day it isn't snow covered.
It is also less then $600 and good luck getting 30 riding days out of the 5 months of hard winter.
The rest of us pay $600 or so for an indoor arena and somebody to shift the blankets around according to temperature, not merely apply sunscreen for half the price.

Don't assume all horsekeeping situations match yours in idyllic So Cal.

[CathyKb]

Here is the ad.

[dray]

Bump. Critique of the actual ad?
The fine print gives an email address to get a sales list emailed or to write for a CD DVD or video.

[CathyKb]

Another question, Do Hunter/Jumper people buy foals? Outstanding quality and proven parents, or do they want ones under saddle. Price difference is quite alot.

[JumperFun]

I think the H/J people tend to want horses that are at least 2, and probably most prefer 3 year olds. Otherwise, you end up investing so much in their care for 2-3 years before you can even see what they will actually do. I prefer to get 3 year olds (doesn't matter if they're under saddle yet) because they are usually past the awkward stage and you can free jump them a bit to see what their attitude and aptitude for it will be. But I wouldn't pass up a nice 2 year old. I never look at anything younger than 2 though, but that might just be me.

[imapepper]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dray:
Bump. Critique of the actual ad?
The fine print gives an email address to get a sales list emailed or to write for a CD DVD or video. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would include your webpage address in the ad. I can't afford (right now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) any of your horses but love to go to websites and look. That would help build your farm's name if window shoppers go look and mention to other folks "Hey I was on so and so's farm website and they had some really great looking babies". I would also give a description for your picts like X age colt/filly by this mare out of that stallion.

[Janet]

OK- I looked at the ad.

Almost all the text is a list of bloodlines. Doesn't mean much to me. I recognize some of the names, but not what they signify. I am probably typical (or maybe a bit more "bloodline conscious") of the COTH readership.

So I have no idea if these are hunters, jumpers, dressage horses (one horse appears to be a dresage horse), eventers, or "breeding stock" who are expected to reproduce rather than perform.

Because the headline is "European Bloodlines" I assumed that this ad was marketing primarily to other breeders, who would want those bloodlines.

If that is your market, then COTH is probably not the best vehicle.

If your market is people looking to buy a horse to PERORM, then you need to talk about performance (or at least potential performance) in the ad.

Also, with no reference to the number of horses (is it 3 horses total for sale, or 50?), or to the location(s), there is no "impulse to "well let's see what they have."

Are the pictures of the horses that are for sale? Or are they of the horses whose bloodlines your horses carry?

There is also nothing that would indicate whether or not these horses are in my price range. In the absense of any indication, I tend to assume "above my price range", whatever my price range IS. With a price range (even if it is a really big one, like $5,000 to $50,000, and even if it is slightly above my current budget) I am likely to want to find out more.

With no names, or farm names, I assume "these are complete unknowns." If there were people's names, or farm names, even if _I_ hadn't heard of them,
a) I would assume that they had SOME sort of a reputation, and
b) I could/would ask other people "have you ever heard of XYZ Farm, whgat do you know about them?"

As it is, all I could do is say "did you see that ad with no names on it? Do you know anything about them?" Much less likely.

Anyway, it didn't look to me like an ad to sell specific horses, it looked like a "keep the name in the public's eye" ad- but there was no "name" to see.

It looked like an ad to sell bloodlines (to breeders), not an ad to sell horses to riders/trainers.

[rider11]

I have to agree with Janet.

As a hunter rider looking for prospects - there just wasn't anything eye-catching in the ad. Personally, I could care less about the bloodlines if the horse is a good mover, sane, and jumps well! So the bloodline listing is just extra words for me.

I would also like to see a location, website (always good!), and farm name or trainer/breeder name.

As someone who is looking for a hunter, I also like to see a beautiful trot picture or jumping (under saddle or free) picture if they are at that point.

Good luck! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Tiramit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:

Anyway, it didn't look to me like an ad to sell specific horses, it looked like a "keep the name in the public's eye" ad- but there was no "name" to see.

It looked like an ad to sell bloodlines (to breeders), not an ad to sell horses to riders/trainers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with all that Janet said in her post, particularly with the above statements.

It just doesn't look like you all are selling anything in particular. People make moves on "particulars". Ever tell your husband to hurry up for a sale before the store runs out of something....? Or call before THAT horse is sold? Same thing. Yes, they are horses, but at the end of the day, it's still motivating a seller to buy a "product".

Bottom line, your ad does not have a, "call to action", the MOST important piece in advertising unless you're just trying to build "brand" / image support. If "brand" support was your goal, then no one needed to call, but it would have been helpful to include your farm names.

Good luck with the next one! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[nycjumper]

I took a look at the ad & the biggest issue I have is that it didn't give me a reason to call you & I'm looking for a horse.
I don't know whether you're selling hunters/jumpers/dressage/whatever.
I don't know what type of prices you're asking.
I don't know where you are.
I don't know who you are.
I don't know whether you're selling 3 horses or more.
I don't have a website to look at to find out info.
I don't even know if those are horses on the market right now or if they're representative of what you sell.

I think you need a lot more information so that you can appeal to whomever your target audience is.

I HIGHLY recommend to all you breeders/sellers out there to have a website & list it. I LOVE looking at your websites. And even if you don't have what I'm looking for, I bookmark them (for later), I pass them along to my friends who are in the market, I tell trainers. Its a great way to build name recognition.

[Merry]

I appreciate your candor and willingness to seek some tips and advice on your ad.

As someone who helped my mom breed, raise and market young warmbloods, it is difficult to sell very young horses to hunter/jumper people because they want to see the horse jump: free jump, longe o/jumps, ridden over small jumps, etc. Very few people want to take a gamble on a horse that needs to jump well for a living by buying it as a very young horse. So if you are marketing to h/j people, a photo of a youngster jumping in some way would be far more impressive than any other type of shot.

And while I care somewhat about a horse's bloodlines the vast majority of h/j people do not, outside of recognizing a very few of the hot sire lines.

Now, if you have a youngster who is bred up the ying-yang to be a solid hunter or jumper, you've shown it successfully in hunter breeding classes, and you have a photo of it free-jumping in classic form... now you've got something! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Finally, the ad reminded me of umpteen ads I've seen in various breed journals, where breeders are kind of selling to other breeders. Gear your ad to people looking for PERFORMANCE horses if you're advertising in publications like The Chronicle. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[jacksmom]

WEBSITE WEBSITE WEBSITE - you've got the great url, use it!

post gobs of photos of these gorgeous youngsters and parents. include prices, location, and all contact information.

make us drool!

[danskbreeder]

Sorry I haven't been on here too busy but there are a lot of points here to respond to. First of all, thanks for your comments and input. I noticed that Jumperfun says that he/she lives near me and has seen my ads. I'm not sure who that is but this is the first time I've ever run an ad. I haven't really been trying to market my horses until now.
One of the reasons I posted this on the H/J forum was because not being an H/J rider I am not sure of the attitude in that market. I have sold semen to seveeral H/J breeders/riders who do know bloodlines. My horses are bred for athleticism. The point in the ad is that we offer both dressage bloodlines and famous jumping bloodlines. I guess in Hunters people think breeding is irrelevant but in Showjumping it is very relevant as jumping ability and technique is one of the most inheritable characteristics in horses.

I did have an "A" circuit rider/trainer out to look at my horses over the weekend and maybe she was just being nice but she loved them and is interested in purchasing one maybe two. So I guess the comment on getting them in front of trainers is correct. She agreed that these horses were going to sell for much more when started.

The point of our ad was why go to Europe and pay to import a horse when you can get the same horse here for less money. Plus these horses have had regular vet care, hoof trims, Strongid and extensive handling. There are no surprises with our horses. I have a client (breeding client) who bot a horse in Europe for a lot of money and when he got it here he discovered that it rears and there's not much to do about
it.

One more thing on my website. I threw it together with the sole purpose of seeling the semen for the stallions I represent. There is not yet a For Sale page on it but there soon will be.

So Thanks for the input.

[Invested1]

Buying a greenie based just on bloodlines is pretty risky. Shoot, look at all the OTTBs with impressive bloodlines making their livings as H/Js or dressage horses.....

[dray]

Whew...every sin committed and admitted.

My thought was why list the web page...people will go there and nobody will call. All the horses are performance bred. There is nothing on my place that hasn't worn a saddle. That's the acid test to get into the breeding program..wear it and and wear it well. Lots of proven atheletes. I do have three two year olds who are just starting long lining(one is hunter/jumper futurity nominated by Cabalito), two one year olds who are perfecting their grazing techniques and five weanlings who have stolen my heart. Then I have the imported Hanoverian stallion Otschag. He's a dressage dude, but his full brother is a GP jumper in Moscow and competes at the Hippodrome. Also have ten imported brood mares.

The web page is in desperate need of update so that's another reason I didn't want to list it. I thought the sales list would cover the new stuff. Needs to be updated. Hear that loud and clear.

Tiramit, Hurley is going Prelim in Ky this fall! He's a star up in Chicago now. He left me last April. About a week after he came home a lady flew down and rode him and they fell for each other big time. He made a trip to Florida over the winter.

Somehow I really thought that savvy riders would recognize bloodlines listed. Although very seldom does OLN list the sire/dam on the competitions that we regularly watch at my hourse. There's lots of INTL competing horses with foals listed in the ad. Really missed the boat on that call.

Thank you all for your time and your very specific comments.

Donna
Carson Farm (http://www.sportequine.com)

[Peggy]

On the ad...

As others have said, not specific enough about just what is for sale--ages, disciplines, level of training--and where it is for sale. As someone else said, distance isn't an issue for electrons (or whatever) whizzing along phone lines, but moving more cumbersome things, like horses and people, is more of a problem.

The only performance photo is dressage. One might assume from a quick glance at the ad that's all you're selling. The dressage photo could show off the horse better.

URL would be helpful. Let's say I played area-code decoding well, figured out I was close by, and wanted a young horse. The ad is non-specific enough that I would prefer to look at a website first. But, I hate the phone. The fact that there is an email address is helpful.


As a person who actually bought an unbroke, ungelded, not quite 3 y.o., born in the USA...

The bottom line thing that convinced me to buy the horse was my trainer's assessment that the horse had a good mind and his past successes in determining this. In this case, the horse was brought into a keuring at the barn and thus brought to the trainer's attention. IMHO, any way you can get trainers to look at your horses is only going to help.

Yes he has proved to have a wonderful mind and a great work ethic.

BTW, what I paid for him probably didn't pay the breeder to raise him.

[pwynnnorman]

I'm surprised that none of the marketers here mentioned the old "get their attention and get them to inquire further" concept in advertising.

Some ads are just designed to attract attention and get a response (like calling or going to the website).

If I could afford to advertise in the Chronicle (and which I'd only do if I had something that I thought would appeal to COTH readers--which means showing or ready to show, and priced accordingly), I'd let a shocking or cutesy BIG, contrasty picture dominate the ad, regardless of its size, and then just my slogan, a statement about what I have available and contact info (which includes website).

My point is that sometimes, detail is a waste of space. No, not always. But sometimes it really isn't needed AND you can give too much information, too. Like prices and sizes that, if they aren't exactly what someone has in mind, might actually prevent them from inquiring further (an inquiry which could possibly change their minds about what they HAVE to have).

(Since I have nothing better to do, like this...

Good, CLOSE, TIGHT shot: Little pony jumping a huge fence, knees wrapped around its ears; bright, happy expression on pony's face; tiny kid on its back, very clearly smiling from ear to ear, reins flopping--legs maybe slipped back, too (implying not much of a rider, i.e. packer pony).

That's the image that would say it all for some. Stop them in their tracks and make them curious, especially parents, but also trainers because it might imply to them "Here's someone who knows what's desireable..."

Then, some slogan like "packers and prospects, prices range from x to y", address, phone and website. That's it. Just the photo, the slogan and the contact information. Let the saavy COTH reader (they know the lingo, they know the implications) draw FROM the ad instead of having to have it spelled out for them.

[Just another way of looking at it from a bored evening instructor teaching a deadly five-hour class.]

[JumperFun]

Sorry danskbreeder, I think I jumped to the wrong conclusion. I thought that you were the Danish woman in CO that shows in the H/J and advertises sales trips to Denmark. My mistake. Silly of me not to realize that there might be more than one person in CO interested in Danish horses.

Anyway, it sounds like you and your associates have done some serious thinking about your marketing and I hope you see great results from it. And I'm glad that the H/J trainer likes your horses. Good luck!

[Tiramit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dray:


Tiramit, Hurley is going Prelim in Ky this fall! He's a star up in Chicago now. He left me last April. About a week after he came home a lady flew down and rode him and they fell for each other big time. He made a trip to Florida over the winter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good to hear - must have been fate for his new owner! I'm happy it worked out for you both! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Tiramit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
I'm surprised that none of the marketers here mentioned the old "get their attention and get them to inquire further" concept in advertising.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, Pwynn, I did mention it, but I call it the "call to action" in an advertisement. Every ad that's selling something should have one! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[rileyt]

Danskbreeder- I have to ask... are you a European native? Recently moved to the States?

The reason I ask... I see a lot of things that you say... and they remind me very much of a European selling mentality ( e.g. emphasis on bloodlines, no worries about starting young horses, etc.)...

And I just don't think American buyers respond to the same types of ads. I'm not saying one way is "better" than the other... just saying this is my experience.

You seem almost a little flabbergasted that American buyers haven't leapt at the opportunity to buy your 15K unbroken three-year-old (even if he will be the next Olympic champion).

You've gotten a lot of good advice here... but let me add some:

1) I view COTH as PRIMARILY a hunter/jumper magazine. They do cover dressage and other sports... but a lot of the readership is looking for hunters... and jumpers. (thus, your fine dressage horses may be somewhat overlooked)

2) You are emphasizing bloodlines in your ads (there are no pictures of horses actually for sale). Americans, as a group (and especially the average American adult amateur horse buyer) are not NEARLY as educated as Europeans on bloodlines. Also, you've listed sires that I've seen access to many many places... a lot of people here breed fairly crappy mares to some pretty nice stallions... and get "average" foals. How do we know that is not your breeding operation? (I'm not saying it is,.. I'm just saying you haven't done anything in your ad to convince me that you are a serious breeder to be reckoned with, as opposed to the countless average breeders we already have here, who also think every baby that hits the ground is the next Olympic medalist)

3) I think it IS a big deal that the horses are unbroken. As one poster alluded to, I think we (as a country) have a vast shortage of trainers who can really start babies well. Most buyers are totally incapable of starting a three year old,... so you're asking them to shell out $15K for a horse... and then probably a year's worth of training and boarding fees (another $9K?) before they can ride it. That's an expensive youngster. And... most buyers here aren't looking for the next Olympic champion. They're looking for safe, broke hunters who can pack them around a 3' course.

4) There is a lot that unbroken three year olds can do... Young dressage prospects are often shown in hand (and results can be listed)... same thing with hunter prospects.
You've given no actual pictures, and no show results for your youngsters. I'm sure you know how deceiving pictures can be... its really hard to evaluate young horses except in the flesh. Essentially, you're asking a potential buyer to fly to CO to look at your un-broken three year olds (who have no show ring performance record), on the basis of 1) their sire, and 2) maybe a picture. I, for one, would never take you up on that. (I might be missing out on some great babies... but I'm on the East Coast... and for almost the same price that I can go to CO and look at your babies, I can go to Holland or Germany, and find 20 barns with un-broken 3 year olds for sale.

That's just my 2 cents. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Lord Helpus]

I'll throw in a couple of comments here:

The only picture of a horse being ridden was of a dressage horse.

What section of COTH was your ad in? If it was in any section other than the Dressage section, you probably lost the interest of 90% of the readers before they read any of the text at all. And you lost the other 10% when they read the text. As has been mentioned, H/J people do not know diddly about European bloodlines and have no idea if the horses listed produce jumpers or dressage horses (in fact, many of the stallions listed are so far back in most pedigrees that they can be found in both jumpers and dressage horses).

But seeing a picture of a dressage horse, I would assume (and I think many readers would assume) that the horses available are primarily if not exclusively dressage horses.

I just bought a yearling who has a future in the hunter ring, so I am not typical of most H/J buyers. I found him through this COTH BB (seller did NOT place an ad, I want to be quick to say http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) -- I went to seller's web site and saw that they had a Popeye K yearling, saw pictures, pedigree and the price of the colt. -- I lusted after Popeye K as a sire, so I emailed her. They took a video for me -- and showed me exactly what I asked to see, including the colt jumping a rail on the ground and a tiny X. I bought him off the video and I am thrilled that I did.

Since I was 2800 miles away from the seller, I had to be willing to buy from the video and from lengthy conversations with the seller. So distance is not necessarily a deterrent to a sle IF you have exactly what the buyer wants -- but the buyer must know what you have before making that initial contact.

So, it is possible to sell yearlings to H/J people off ads and web sites. But, you need to have up to date pictures of the exact horses that are for sale, you need to have the pedigrees of each sale horse and you need videos of each horse and/or be ready to immediately take videos of the horse to suit the buyer's exact requirements.

Oh, and now that I have had such a good experience with the sellers and found out that they have quality stock and the colt was as represented, when they called last week and said that they had another yearling by Flemingh who should make a lovely hunter; might I be interested in seeing a video of it? I said "yes".

THAT (to me) is how you market multiple horses. One horse at a time.

Would I have bought the colt or even emailed the sellers if all I knew was that someone, somewhere in North America had a yearling with Voltaire in its pedigree? Three guesses and the first two don't count.......

Sorry if I come off sounding harsh -- But, from my recent experience (plus an MBA in market and 8 years spent working in advertising) tells me you are wasting your money on ads like the one you placed.

[Rocky XVI]

I agree - wrong ad for the hunter/jumper market.

I once saw a very nice horse competing in a jumper development class. After the round was over, I asked the rider about the bloodlines of the horse he was on. The response of the rider - a grand prix rider, a pro, and a trainer of young horses - was: "I don't know, his papers are back in the barn somewhere".

Jumper people care about prize money won; hunter people care about championships won. They buy on that basis, not on European bloodlines they don't even recognize.

[breezymeadow]

While I agree with a lot of the posters here, I too must add that when I placed a "horse for sale" ad with COTH (to the tune of about $90), I received two calls - neither one of which was anything but window-shopping.

On the other hand, the ads I placed in Virginia Horse Journal, Horse Talk, and Horse & Livestock Trader netted me DOZENS of calls - all lucrative (& WAY, WAY, WAY cheaper for ad placement).

I'm not a marketing specialist so can't tell you why, but results are results.

[Tiramit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by breezymeadow:
While I agree with a lot of the posters here, I too must add that when I placed a "horse for sale" ad with COTH (to the tune of about $90), I received two calls - neither one of which was anything but window-shopping.

On the other hand, the ads I placed in Virginia Horse Journal, Horse Talk, and Horse & Livestock Trader netted me DOZENS of calls - all lucrative (& WAY, WAY, WAY cheaper for ad placement).

I'm not a marketing specialist so can't tell you why, but results are results. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Breezymeadow, I am curious, were they identical ads? If not, it may be difficult to compare the results effectively. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[CathyKb]

I was one of the breeders included in the ad. I thought the ad was nice, but I have never placed an ad other than a classifed ad without pictures in print. I have placed ads on the internet and print and have always received at least one call or more. But each individual horse was listed. I am a small breeder, I am looking currently to put a website together and hopefully that will create more interest in my wonderful horses. I only have one undersaddle and 3 weanlings to sell. My horses are included in my family and the MUST situation is that they go to the CORRECT home and rider. In the past I have turned down sales that I felt was not in the best interest of my horse and the buyer. DRAY, DANSKBREEDER and I raise truly wonderful horses for all disciplines. My aim is mainly the hunter/jumper market and have chosen great sires and mares that match and I could not have been more pleased with the resulting foals. Any suggestions on marketing a truly outstanding foal out of a GP mare. Thank you all for the wonderful information.
Cathy

[poltroon]

There is an excellent ad in the inside cover of this month's EVENTING magazine (USEA mag) - showing off two horses NOT FOR SALE that the farm had bred and sold previously, with their performance records. And then the ad says, "we have more just like this."

Then I would give a website, and have it coated with ADORABLE pictures of your babies, with lots of text about what their parents and siblings have done.

I think this kind of ad, as PWynn was mentioning, might be more effective for your needs.

[danskbreeder]

AIn response to Rileyt:
Actually I am not new to this country I was born and raised here. I have lived in other countries and I do obviously have a lot of contact with Europeans in the horse business. I breed and import European horses. One of the reasons for posting this here was to get input from Hunter riders. My horses are the middle ones in the ad and actually of the sires listed Ramiro, Furioso II and Landadel are primarily known by jumpers. I do in fact show a horse for sale and I think that anyone looking at the picture of my gelding can see that he's not out of a "fairly crappy mare", sort of the point of the picture. Before I started breeding and handling young horses I too had that fear and anxiety of unbroken horses. As I have previously posted I know three trainers who I would send a horse to who will start them and make sure they are well started for less around $600 a month. I'm not at all flabbergasted that some people don't want to spend $15,000 for a horse that's about to be started. Inresponse to number four it's a little hard to put all you're asking for here in an ad. Of course my horses have been shown in hand and they are all approved Danish Warmbloods. I would expect that most sincere buyers would ask for a video, discuss what they are looking for before thinking about getting on a plane. As for going to Europe to buy a horse, absolutely you can spend $1000 on airfare, pay for hotels, look at lots of horses pay the dollar equivalent of $9000 or more for a three year old, ship them back here for from $4-7000 depending on their gender for the exact same horse we are selling here. "European Bloodlines bred in America" our mares are imported our semen is imported. In addition probably 95% of those three year olds have been out in a field with little handling. Our American system of breeding and raising horses is much different.

[mbp]

This is a bit off topic - but do you think it is really truly that Hunter rider's don't know any bloodlines, or that only a few wb stallion owners have truly marketed directly to Hunter riders? I don't do hunters, used to do some small shows year back, still go watch now and then in Lexington. It seems to me that even hunter riders who are not super interested in bloodlines do know AllaCzar, All the Gold and PopeyeK. So maybe it's a bit harsh to say the hunter's don't "know bloodlines" when only a few wb stallions seem to actively market to them. ?? just a disconnected thought

[findeight]

Don't forget that many buyers are looking on behalf of their chidren..who will age out of competition and into college within 3 years or less. Buying a 3 year old for a kid who wants to go to indoors or WEF before they have to sell the thing and go to college???
Well...it's not a matter of H/J "attitude" towards youngsters, in this case, it's the simple truth they need a more finished animal.

Far as the Adults go, most of us board one or two out and have to balance barn time and job commitments. Few would be willing to take a chance and sink 2-3 years of pro time into one that has no proof of what is needed, nor do it's first generation parents. But I'd be in line right behind LHU to get that PopeyeK yearling and willing to take the chance..because daddy is a superstar and, Based on LHU's appraisal-I bet it has the conformation and attitude..and LHU keeps her horses at home.

I think the OP said something about one of these sale horses being a Grand Prix horse in Dressage? well, who rode the GP test on her and what was the score, and where?
Horses that are successful at one thing have, at least, proven they will accept the discipline of training.

It's not that many of us H/J types are against youngsters, it's just that time can be an enemy..and many of us have alot of time in the horse business under our belts and have already owned talented youngsters that sapped our time and wallet, and disappointed us.

Figure out what your product is and who will buy it. Tailor your ad to that buyer and place it where that buyer will see it.

Be careful what you say or imply too, couple of things have been thrown out here that imply H/J types don't want babies for all the wrong reasons. H'J types may, indeed, want your babies IF you market them after they can show what we want to see. We really all are not self centered wannabes after instant gratification.

[Ben and Me]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It seems to me that even hunter riders who are not super interested in bloodlines do know AllaCzar, All the Gold and PopeyeK. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's the difference between Alla Czar, All the Gold, and Popeye K from the European stallions, in my honest opinion.

1. I see these horses' names everywhere I look--in the Chronicle Stallion issue, here on this forum, and in the results of huge shows like WEF (with a stallion like Jupiter, for example, that has been showing in the last few years)

2. These ads include pictures of these stallions offspring, that I can either look at and say "Hey, this one throws nice babies!" or know by reputation "I've seen this one winning everything--look at the IHF ad a few pages back"

3. These stallions are marketed as specifically HUNTER stallions--the photos of them in the ads are BREATHTAKING and, as someone who mainly subscribes to the Chronicle to look at the pretty pictures, I notice these pictures and the horses in them.

That is why Americans are more familiar with these stallions--they stand out!

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It seems to me that even hunter riders who are not super interested in bloodlines do know AllaCzar, All the Gold and PopeyeK. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, but those are not the bloodlines mentioned in the ad.

[findeight]

Oh, I just have to add...
PUHLEESE..do NOT show us pictures/videos of your sale horses frolicking in the pasture.
Yeah, they are pretty.
But we can see that any time, actually with some drop dead gorgeous horses that have proven unsuitable and unable to do anything we wished they could-boy that's hard when you own it. Keeps you from buying another pretty in the pasture type too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Lord Helpus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mbp:
It seems to me that even hunter riders who are not super interested in bloodlines do know AllaCzar, All the Gold and PopeyeK. So maybe it's a bit harsh to say the hunter's don't "know bloodlines" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The three horses you mention are not "bloodlines". They are stallions. They are current stallion, hot stallions, stallions who are themselves showing or who have a lot of progeny showing.

That is NOT bloodlines. Can you name THEIR sires? How about their dam sires? If we knew BLOODLINES, we could answer those questions.

Here's an easy one --- we'll see how many hunter/jumper people know: Who is Popeye K's sire? Name two other famous jumpers who also have that horse in their pedigree.

I bet that no one reading this thread can answer this question without looking it up. And this is kindergarten knowledge for people interested in Europen WB bloodlines.

Don't misunderstand me: there is nothing wrong with not knowing this -- I am just trying to make a point that hunter/jumper people are not interested in knowing it. (And, until I fell in love with Popeye K and got my boy Pete, I did not know the answer, either. It is now one of the few tidbits I do know...)

That's why I think that ads which focus on bloodlines instead of the individual horse miss the target audience.

[rileyt]

dansk- I did not mean for my post to sound hostile... I think I offended you and that wasn't my intent... I was merely playing devil's advocate to try to get at some of the reasons your ad may not have been as effective as you'd like.

I'll tell you... when I look for a horse, I want a description (and preferably a picture) of the horse that is actually for sale. That is my personal issue with your ad.

I'd have to spend my time e-mailing/calling you to find out if you have a 3 year old of the type I'm looking for, in the price range I want. I don't know if you have 3 horses for sale or 20. Sure, it may be easy to call you and find out... but why should I call you (to find out that you only have 2 3-year-olds... both from Furioso bloodlines, both for $18K... when what I really want is something different? I can look in the Chronicle and find 4 ads that at least SOUND like what I want.

That's all.

In fact, I think instead of using 3 "generic" photos (that don't say anything about the horses pictured), you'd be better off picking 3 of your nice young horses... with a photo, that horse's bloodlines, their age, height, price, etc. And then saying "And many more like them!"

Just my opinion.

[Xctrygirl]

Man how's this for a contrasting reply...

I ran a 1/3 page ad in the COTH in the following week issue (June 4th) and I have been besiged by calls, from both coasts and everywhere in between!!! My ad included 3 pics, and a website and some brief descriptions.

KNOWING that the H/J crew frequent COTH, I featured a nice "hunter style" picture replete with an actual hunter rider, hunt cap, standing martingale etc.

Now before you think, "Oh well sure Emily its easy to sell a resonably priced 16+h right now." The horse I am selling is only 15.2, not a size horse thats usually easy to sell.

He has to this point netted me 25 serious calls, and his website, designed just for this ad campaign is up to 511 hits as of right now!!!!It started at 0 when this ad ran.

I ran 3 ads all told. All 1/3 page ads, one in COTH, one in the Equiery (Mid atlantic horse free mag) and one in the USEA(Eventing) magazine. The ads are identical. The response has been enormous!!

Your ad seems confusing to me too as with 3 different phone numbers all the reader thinks is "Wait, who do I call and why are the numbers all different?"

I wouldn't spend more than $5k on any horse.... so call me cheap. I too like one I can throw my leg over on the day. And bloodlines are great but each individual horse has to make their own career, regardless or in spite of their breeding.

About the website.... My website was made off a free site, ( www.tripod.com (http://www.tripod.com)) and it has easy to use templates so anyone, and I do mean anyone, can make their own site look good.

I will try to link Nick's ad on this thread... need to upload it to a webpage. Bear in mind you and I faced the same audience a week apart and I have tons of responses and hits. Including 3 people willing to potentially ship my horse cross country!! And he only costs $10k!!


I HIGHLY reccomend advertising in the COTH. It has been an amazing response and validated the money I invested in the ads.


Thats my experience, sorry yours wasn't as great.

~Emily

[Hidden Hill Farm]

OK, so h/j people, for comparison, critique this ad...
It's not the finished product that I ended up using.

But it says what we do.
Hidden Hill Farm
Specializing in H/J sales...
Where we are, how to reach us...

and shows some of what we have
"from foals to working hunters"


Now that I've made it small enough to upload, it's really hard to read the letters...

[Future Breeder]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:

Here's an easy one --- we'll see how many hunter/jumper people know: Who is Popeye K's sire? Name two other famous jumpers who also have that horse in their pedigree.

I bet that no one reading this thread can answer this question without looking it up. And this is kindergarten knowledge for people interested in Europen WB bloodlines. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldn't resist posting.. I knew the answer to this one without having to look it up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[rider11]

Hidden Hill - I like it

[Lord Helpus]

Well, Future Breeder, I think that your screen name identifies you as not being a typical H/J rider.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Not that there's anything wrong with that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Plus, I realized after I posted my little quiz that I had already given out part one of the answer. So, even people who hadn't known the answer before reading p 4 of this thread, knew it before reading the little quiz if they were paying attention. ("Yes, you out there in the third row from the back -- Wake up!")

[Nexta]

Hidden Hill - I like your ad because it tells me exactly what you are selling - hunters/jumpers.

Being the average rider I want a horse started under saddle that will pretty much load and show at purchase time and an ad stating "fine European bloodlines" or whatever will not get a second look from me. I want a horse that is sound in mind and body , not fine bloodlines.

There are so many breeders - and most breeders think their horses are the finest in the land.

I would rather put 15K or more into a horse that I know will go in the show ring than put 15K or more into good bloodlines that haven't even packed a saddle!

[Tiramit]

Hidden Hill, you ought to receive plenty of calls with that ad! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Rosie]

Well,
I am a Creative Director at an advertising agency and work on a variety of accounts.
My experience has been that if you ask people what they want in an ad you'll hear all kinds of responses...."I want to know who, what, where, how much, etc. etc. etc."
You'd end up with an "infomercial" or a novel if you provided all the information they will tell you they need.
In reality, people respond to the type ad that pynnorman described. Because the very first thing that has to happen is that your ad needs to get noticed - it has to have stopping power.

Do you need to provide information? yes. But think about how that information can be conveyed - "hook" them with just enough in information to get them interested and then provide a link to a killer website. Do you need to SAY you have "quality" horses if you SHOW a quality horse? No.
Remember that people are immediately skeptical of advertising - don't use hyperbole and overstate. Try humor and charm....it works!

I hate that almost all advertising in horse magazines is terrible. They all look the same and sound the same. Someone should approach it like successful advertisors in other catagories.

[danskbreeder]

Thanks Rosie! Obviously we now realise that the ad is lacking in several areas. But based on the experience of someone who ran an ad the week later I think that the timing of our ad, Memorial Day, was also a factor.

I'm actually a little surprised though that people would not make a phone call to find out about a horse for sale if one is seriously looking. The first time I bought a horse I drove all over England which takes about the same amount of time as driving from NY-CA and called hundreds of sellers to talk to them. I'm also not understanding the comment again about not showing a horse for sale. He's right there in the picture, a horse for sale, and he's so obviously a quality horse that that photo was printed in a the Danish riding magazine showing the future of the Danish Warmblood.

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ("Yes, you out there in the third row from the back -- Wake up!") <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm awake....Voltaire

[Rosie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rosie:
Well,
I am a Creative Director at an advertising agency and work on a variety of national accounts - in all kinds of media - tv, print, etc.
My experience has been that if you ask people what they want in an ad you'll hear all kinds of responses...."I want to know who, what, where, how much, etc. etc. etc."
You'd end up with an "infomercial" or a novel if you provided all the information they will tell you they need.
In reality, people respond to the type ad that pynnorman described. Because the very first thing that has to happen is that your ad needs to get noticed - it has to have stopping power.

Look at the other ads where you'll be running.
How can you be different? Memorable. Provocative.

Do you need to provide information? yes. But think about how that information can be conveyed - maybe "hook" them with just enough in information to get them interested and then provide a link to a killer website.
Have then provide an address and send out a great video. Whatever. But don't try to make your ad do all the work. It won't work at all....as you've discovered.

Do you need to SAY you have "quality" horses if you SHOW a quality horse? No.
Remember that people are immediately skeptical of advertising - don't use hyperbole and overstatements.
Try humor, charm, and entertainment....it works!

Almost all of the advertising in horse magazines is terrible. They all look the same and sound the same. Someone should approach it like successful advertisers in other catagories. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Tiramit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by danskbreeder:

I'm also not understanding the comment again about not showing a horse for sale. He's right there in the picture, a horse for sale, and he's so obviously a quality horse that that photo was printed in a the Danish riding magazine showing the future of the Danish Warmblood. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which one? You showed 3 different horses in small, cropped black and white photos with phone numbers underneath. As simple as it may sound, the basic line, "offered for sale" at the top of the ad would have made a dramatic difference.

I've read the comments from all three breeders, seen the ad in print and online, and I'm STILL confused as to whether the EXACT horses in the ad are for sale or not, or are they just graphics for your breeding program?

And please take this as a gentle comment, arguing with potential buyers that it's their fault for missing the point of your ad is not a good sales strategy. That's how I've read all of your posts - that WE, the readers of the COTH and h/j riders, don't understand how these horses should be sold... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:

Here's an easy one --- we'll see how many hunter/jumper people know: Who is Popeye K's sire? Name two other famous jumpers who also have that horse in their pedigree.

I bet that no one reading this thread can answer this question without looking it up. And this is kindergarten knowledge for people interested in Europen WB bloodlines. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty average H/J'er here: While I don't know the answer to Popeye K (except for the Voltaire part), I could tell you about Alla'Czar and that he shares the same sire as Jupiter. I've loved that Alla'Czar for many, many years. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[scotchie]

Ok, I'll chime in...I LOVE to read the sale ads in the COTH but I have to say I missed yours. I think the posters here have been great and I think you hit the nail on the head with your great comment about WHY you listed the bloodlines. You said something like, "Why go to Europe when you can get the same here?" That caught me! Maybe add "European bloodlines that are consistant winners in todays' top hunter rings" or "Zippy's highly sought-after bloodlines make him an excellent jumper prospect" (the names might not mean much to the me but I always like to hear what the breeder suggests as the best/most likely venue for the horse to go to-they know the lineage AND the personality).I also think the less text the better-just clear and concise and enough to grab attention. Pictures are SO important! If you want the "averge" hunter folks I would also suggest that a line or two about the individual is more important than the distant lineage. Even if they are young and not started something like, "Lunging quietly, shows exceptional gaits for winning the hack, easy to work with, etc". Just to give us a hint/idea of what they are like.

Just to also note-MOST horse buyers are not going to spend $18K on a 2-year old and then turn it out for a year-Maybe those with a string of horses and their own farm, but not the one horse owner. I want something I can do something with on SOME level. At least started under saddle. That makes all the difference between buying a baby and buying a greenie.

Good luck-Your guys are great and I sure wish I had one!

[Janet]

Just one more point.

The one conformation picture- it looks like a very nice horse, but it DOESN'T look like a hunter, either in conformation, or pose.

[Peggy]

With respect to the timing of the ad, not everyone gets the COTH on the official publication date. Here is CA, the arrival date can range from a few days to a week or more after publication. Sometimes you get two on the same day. So, that may not have been a huge factor.

Take a look at the other ad mentioned (Xctrygirl's). It's very specific. True, it can be more specific b/c it's only for one horse. But, I remember seeing hers and thinking "what a neat horse!"

[Hidden Hill Farm]

If you are selling hunters, it is easier to mention the names of successful offpring by the same sire than to try to educate on bloodlines.

For example, if you have an Aristos B youngster, you may not get a huge response, but if you said, 1/2 sibling to the great Rox Dene, you'd probably have a phone that was ringing off the hook!!!

As a breeder and a h/j rider/ trainer, I see both sides of this issue. Breeders have worked on getting their bloodlines perfected and want to share that information with people. However, h/j riders and most trainers basically just want to know that it's sound, sane and will do it's job well. So, I've learned not to speak on bloodlines to h/j people but instead, say, this one is by the same sire as so and so.

If I said that I bred my Parabol mare to Linaro and got a gorgeous filly, that would most likely mean very little to folks who don't study bloodlines and know that Parabol is a fantastic dressage AND hunter stallion and was an IHF stallion known for his incredible canter, temperament and rideability. Knowing that Linaro is a Holsteiner stallion known for his elegant GQ type, lighter build and incredibly long legs.
So, a breeder might understand that cross and know why the result was spectacular (and she is!!). But if I were advertising her in a h/j magazine (although she's NOT for sale!!!) I would say (for sale) Paris- incredible hunter prospect, elegant, leggy bay with tons of chrome . Paris has a very well balanced rythmical canter and has tons of scope. 3'6" will be a breeze for this very personable filly. She displays a natural change of lead in the field. She has excellent conformation and is 100% sound with clean x-rays.....

[Rosie]

danskbreeder,
sorry - I didn't mean to confuse you!
My comments and suggestions were not specifically about your ad which I haven't looked at.
They were meant as "tips on effective advertising" in general.


Here is one way to think of it:

1. Your print ad should get EVERYONES attention that is reading the publication. (use your looks/graphics or personality/tone to get them to look at you)
2. Once you've got their attention you have about 2 seconds to do something with it - pay it off with enough information that they know WHAT you are "selling" and WHY that should be important to them.
Hint: you may actually be selling young horses, but what people are looking for are fame, glory, ribbons and the cutest horse on the planet.

3. Give them a way to get all of the "other stuff"/information without a hassle. Some people think making a phone call is a hassle - some don't. If you can, cover your bases and give them options. Websites, videos, whatever.

Look thru other ads and try not to use any of the same phrases or wording they are using.
If it sounds like an "ad" then rewrite it.
Your personality should come thru in the tone of the copy. (well that's assuming you're a nice person http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
If people "like" how you sound, they are more inclined to check your ad out.

Hope that all helps!

[nycjumper]

I think Scotchie has come up with a headline for your next ad.
"Why go to Europe for your next hunter when you can get the same quality bloodlines in Colorado"

Then a few shots with a website & info.

I'm sure your horses are stunning & will be succesful - you just need to lure people in to show them http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nycjumper:
I think Scotchie has come up with a headline for your next ad.
"Why go to Europe for your next hunter when you can get the same quality bloodlines in Colorado"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually don't think that's all the great a way to garner attention. Mainly because a lot of times people go to Europe for the prestige of importing a horse. Importing a horse is a status symbol to some. Those people aren't going to care if you have European bloodlines here, they want the distinction of getting those bloodlines in Europe. I think you would have more success targetting people looking for nice horses period.

[breezymeadow]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiramit:
Breezymeadow, I am curious, were they identical ads? If not, it may be difficult to compare the results effectively. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the ads were identical except for the one in Horse & Livestock Trader, which had a black & white photo (b&w photo ads are FREE in this publication).

(However, after my husband listened to me speak with dozens of callers night after night, telling them why they SHOULDN'T buy my horse (he was a rescue), he finally said FOR CHRISSAKE'S, IF YOU WANT HIM THAT BADLY, JUST KEEP HIM!!! And we did - the big goofball.)

[Tiramit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by breezymeadow:
[
(However, after my husband listened to me speak with dozens of callers night after night, telling them why they SHOULDN'T buy my horse (he was a rescue), he finally said FOR CHRISSAKE'S, IF YOU WANT HIM THAT BADLY, JUST KEEP HIM!!! And we did - the big goofball.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[CBoylen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hidden Hill Farm:
For example, if you have an Aristos B youngster, you may not get a huge response, but if you said, 1/2 sibling to the great Rox Dene, you'd probably have a phone that was ringing off the hook!!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You'd also be guilty of false advertising, since being by Aristos B does not make it a 1/2 sibling http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

[Ben and Me]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You'd also be guilty of false advertising, since being by Aristos B does not make it a 1/2 sibling . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Can you explain this to me?

[BLBGP]

It's only considered 1/2 sibling if it's out of the same mare.

[pwynnnorman]

BLBGP, to YOU. That's just a terminology issue--and one that isn't even consistently applied across breeds. False advertising involves being intentionally misleading. It IS a half-sibling in the same way that humans use the term. It's silly to split hairs--and sometimes a waste of space, too (1/2 sib is fewer characters that the technically correct "by the same stallion as...").

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I would say (for sale) Paris- incredible hunter prospect, elegant, leggy bay with tons of chrome . Paris has a very well balanced rythmical canter and has tons of scope. 3'6" will be a breeze for this very personable filly. She displays a natural change of lead in the field. She has excellent conformation and is 100% sound with clean x-rays..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup! Says it all to those who know. And, y'know, I think people willing to pay well really prefer that sellers KNOW what buyers want. I think it's important to try to communicate that in an ad, especially if you are a breeder (I suspect riders and trainers tend to be skeptical when it comes to our judgement--heard lots of horror stories).

[CBoylen]

Sorry; Pwynn. I disagree. If I'm going to put in the time to call about a 1/2 sibling, it better be out of the same mare. Horses by the same stallion are plentiful, true 1/2 siblings are hard to find.

[Hidden Hill Farm]

Ok, Ok, the whole point was to make an association with something that people have heard of instead of mentioning a sire that most people do not know.

[almost star]

Agree with Chanda (and precisely put, also).

[Showpony]

Maybe it's being picky, But it drives me CRAZY when people use 1/2 sibling when refering to the same stallion!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif they do it at my barn all the time and it makes me cringe.

Might be splitting hairs but like someone said, horses by the same stallion are plentiful!

[Hidden Hill Farm]

Interesting perspective. I thought the Jockey Club was about the only registry that looked at siblings that way. I look at it from the perspective of dealing with warmblood stallion owners. Many of them will tell you if it's a paternal or maternal half sibling or just say sibling top or bottom. However, I do not mean to hijack the thread with this. I'm not a big TB person.

As I mentioned before. I was only trying to suggest that the horse being advertised should be put into a context that the potential buyer can relate to.

[Madame Butterfly]

so, has anyone called yet?

[LMH]

What a BRILLIANT way to run an ad on the COTH BB http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[grayfox]

I don't think that was the intent at all. I think she really wants help and I appreciate reading all the suggestions.

[Becka]

Hi, Donna [dray]; Well, I figured I'd chime in to say, I'm the 'PROUD' owner of 3-horses that I purchased from Donna Ray. I'm in WV, and obviously, Donna's in TX. The first horse I purchased 'Ocala Stride', a wonderful TB Mare [Oldenburg approved] [Northern Dancer lines]which I plan to breed. The second 'UPS'a wonderful Danish mare that I purchased in foal, and plan to breed again, produced the third "Otschag's Gift' a colt born in May, and I have to say, I couldn't be happier with these gals/guy. I purchased the horses from ads on Agdirect, and Warmblood forum. I didn't drive to TX to see them either. My vet, and anyone else that's seen these mares, and now colt can't believe how nice they are, and that I chose them from pictures sent from Donna http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifand did so well. 'Best wishes' you guys with your ad in the future. You've been given some good advice. [I'll have to remember when I start advertising] You've got really great horses here, and the right buyer's are sure to come along! Take care.

[mbp]

Still OT a bit. LordH - I agree - those are stallions and not bloodlines. But what I was getting at is summed up at least in part in Ben & Me's post. Learning about bloodlines has to have a starting point. And that starting point, for most riders, is going to be all the things B/M http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif listed. That is something that all the European riders already have. When they go to shows, they see offspring of the European stallions there. When they pick up mags, they see the names over and over. They are the targets of the marketing there.

When the H/J riders haven't had that same situation I think it is harsh to say they don't care about bloodlines. IMO, if some of the stallions I mentioned, who are TARGETING h/j riders and whose offspring are out there doing the job, have their own approved sons or successful daughters, those riders will recognize the lines and ties. That would over time build the same kind of base, but it takes time, TARGETING, identifiable offspring at the shows, and maturation of the process (plus maybe something done to keep original names, at least in parenthesis, when riders change them). Until the riders have had some history of all the things that B&Me mentioned with the stallions, I think it's tough to say they just don't care. If it takes hours and hours and hours to figure out, they don't. If they have had 20 years of seeing Alla Czar (for example) and his get in the rings, they are going to be able to quote some blooeldines, something like - "Yeah, my Piczar is by Czarpet Cleaner - you know, the Alla Czar son and he's got a Popeye K dam somewhere too." That kind of thing. Or am I just naive?

Anyway - this is a thread a lot of breeders who are not immersed in h/j but who want to target that market in an ad should review. It was really wonderful of the OP and participants to let their ad be a springboard for the discussion.

[CathyKb]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their input. Will put your ideas to use.
Cathy

[seal]

I don't feel that is necessarily harsh to say that h/j people don't care about bloodlines. It would probably be more accurate to say Americans in general don't care about bloodlines. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And why, may you ask, do I feel this way? Because I cannot begin to tell you how many times I have been told by trainers: "Who cares about stinking papers?" Many, many times. But times they are a changing as Dylan would put it, and the first step is edumacation.(intentionally bad spelling)

[Dancing Lawn]

This thread has been really helpful for me, and I'll be putting all the good advice to work, pretty soon!!It's also convinced me to hire a good photographer for some nice professional shots. I think it will be well worth it, it the long run. Now, to find a good photographer. Any recommendations for someone in mid-western Ontario?

[WendyWDS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dancing lawn:
Now, to find a good photographer. Any recommendations for someone in mid-western Ontario? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are any of these photographers close enough to you?

http://www.equinephotographers.net/directory.htm#canada

[Dancing Lawn]

I think I've found one, I'll be calling her sometime this week! I have some horses that I'ld really like to get moved, asap.

[danskbreeder]

Thanks to everyone for their advice. I've taken it to heart and have just bought several more ads in more appropriate places.

[danskbreeder]

With descriptions of the horses, what they've done, how much they cost and fancy pictures.

website is next to have a Horses for sale page.
www.danishwarmblood.com (http://www.danishwarmblood.com)

[Carol Ames]

Targeting your prospective buyer is VERY IMPORANT, if these, are pregreen prospects, market them before the WEF, HITS/Ocala; They do need mileage in some sort of performance area, if you don't have a rider /trainer to help you wit ht his, i'm afraid you will need a BNT , or NBNR to help you.People want something that they know the judge will like , or, can do the job., then get a photo ad in the special issue COTH for that discipline.remember he market is for adulamateurs, and childrens' mounts , which , means mileage and training.he same for jR/AO . I"m afraid that location is also important; i had a mare who, was "the horse to beat",inhe ch/adult division,in theMidwest;in MS classics was 2nd, and 3rd, them, won at Traders' Pointbut,, it was only , when we came east to Upperville, that we got the "hit" we needed.