Can we stop this woman from eating her horse? (long) [Archive]

hey_marie

Jan. 27, 2004, 05:59 PM

Someone suggested that I post here. This horse has been rough boarded at our barn for about 6 months, out of state owner, never around. The horse is a 20 some QH mare with arthritis problems, but still getting around OK. About a month ago owner informed us that as soon as she could find a place that would butcher the horse for her she would be taking the horse. We have offered her money, tried to talk her out of it any way we can think of, but she wants to eat her horse! We think that with proper care, the mare has at least a couple of good years left in her, and hate to see her come to this end. Also not being of a culture that sees horses as food, (I don't think it's a cultural thing for her either) we are having some serious emotional issues with this. She also had us substantially increase the mare's feed, the beginning of the month, "to help keep her comfortable in the cold weather". We're not that stupid. I have kids that work in the barn that have been helping to take care of this horse and have become attached to her. We kept hoping that she'd change her mind, but she has now told us that she will be taking the horse out the end of this month. She also has (the mare's son) a stud, who is for sale, boarded with us. We would have considered kicking them all out, as soon as she told us this, but at least we know that with us they are receiving good care, and we just couldn't believe she'd really do it.
Does anyone have any suggestions for a legal way to gain possesion of this horse? She has been paying the board, sometimes late, but paid.
A civil suit was suggested, something to do with loss of business or employees, (which almost happened) mental anguish, I don't know.
I guess we're down to the wire, so we're open to suggestions. Thanks, Marie

hey_marie

Jan. 27, 2004, 05:59 PM

MyShadeOfPink

Jan. 27, 2004, 06:04 PM

Talk to the humane society about it.... they might be able to help.

I hate to say it, and I personally would never do this ever EVER, but at least the horse wont be suffering before death. She wont be dumped into a feedlot, etc, etc, etc. Will the horse be killed humanely?

I know its not of our culture, and its not somthing we look up upon, but to each his own I guess.

Poor mare... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif
edited for error

Jennie
"all these lines fall short of what i had in mind
a failed attempt to capsulize a feeling
so i just try fail and try and try again"
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OneonOne

Jan. 27, 2004, 06:23 PM

Well, you can attempt to talk her out of it by informing her that many of the common supplements/meds horses receive are NOT for human consumption. Bute, and I think most wormers indicate that they are not for horses for human consumption. I don't know...

MistyBlue

Jan. 27, 2004, 06:26 PM

Ugh...wasn't going to post..but ugh! Ew. Yuck. Blech.
And not replying due to just the eating of horsemeat aspect...but the eating of your OWN horse's meat???? Maybe because I'm slightly hypocritical in some ways...I eat beef and am not a vegetarian. But not so sure if I would be eating a steak from anything I owned and was attached emotionally to.
Has she been reading Italian restaurant menus? Maybe someone could fill her in on something: Meals under the heading "Tutti Di Mare" actually means From The Sea, not from an actual MARE! Yee-ick!

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BelladonnaLily

Jan. 27, 2004, 06:31 PM

I have NO idea what to say here. I have never heard of someone (in this country, anyway) wanting to EAT their own horse. Call it a cultural thing or whatever, but this woman must be quite a case. Good luck and kudos to you for trying to save the poor mare. If she goes, I hope at least it's a humane end. And that the owner gets seriously ill from eating it.

deltawave

Jan. 27, 2004, 06:33 PM

I have a hard time believing she's serious, but if she is I don't suppose there's any legal way to stop her. It's her animal, and whether we like it or not eating horsemeat isn't illegal. Many non-horsey folks would probably think it odd, but no worse than butchering a cow one has raised and kept. I just hope the animal is put down humanely if this is really her intention. Sounds like a nut-case to me, and people like that often aren't exactly reliable in the stories they tell...I hope so, anyhow, for the poor old mare's sake! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

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MyShadeOfPink

Jan. 27, 2004, 06:35 PM

while i was making some cookie dough I thought about it and wondered if I got sucked in by a troll. Oh well benifit of the doubt. ugggh midterms.

At my first barn we had an old guy (his name was chicky) who's family used to eat their horses when they would pass on/have somthing happen to them.

oivay

Jennie
"all these lines fall short of what i had in mind
a failed attempt to capsulize a feeling
so i just try fail and try and try again"
See my albulm Updated 11/11 (http://community.webshots.com/user/myshadeofpink)

HFbellefille

Jan. 27, 2004, 07:05 PM

Unfortunately, she's legally entitled to slaughter her horse for her own consumption. Since she's paying bills and the horse is being well cared for, I'm not sure there is any action that you can take that would require her to stop this plan. The only thing I can think of is OneonOne's point about supplements, etc. Maybe increase your offered price to buy the mare?

What a horrible situation this puts you in, I hope there is some way it can be worked out.

regalace

Jan. 27, 2004, 08:37 PM

Well, that definitely wins the weirdness award. I have never heard of anyone doing such a thing, although there was a person at one barn where I rode who, when her old horse had to be put down, had the hide cured for a rug. I guess it didn't turn out too well, though; it's hard to cure a hide with hair still attached.

Anyway, I would definitely caution this person with the very legit concept of certain meds being not for human consumption, and perhaps you could use that to your advantage. How long after, say, worming with Ivermectin is it possible to eat an animal that's been dosed? You could always say it's a new 2004 requirement that horses be wormed X times--or put on daily wormer, maybe. Then she couldn't safely do the deed.

But you know, in some ways it's not all that strange an idea. The Mongolians do it, after all. At least nothing's being wasted. I don't think I could do it, but I eat steak. Personally, when my old horse dies, I want to see if I can get that LifeGems thing done and have a diamond made. Don't know if they take large animals, but wouldn't it be cool to have a little memorial? (And is it almost equally strange that I think LifeGems is a great idea for pets but a totally bizarre one for humans?)

I'm sorry you have to deal with this person's oddball ideas! I'd work the heck out of the "drugs not intended for human consumption" angle. Good luck!

The hooves of the horses! Oh witching and sweet is the music earth steals from the iron-shod feet. Will Ogilvie

shiloh

Jan. 27, 2004, 08:37 PM

Ewwwww...and I thought I had heard everything...
some people.

Phaxxton

Jan. 27, 2004, 08:42 PM

Aren't there (or weren't there) laws in the US prohibiting the slaughter of horses for human consumption within the US? Or was that for commercial sale for consumption within the US?

Just curious.

I personally find this disgusting. Not in a general anti-slaughter way, either... just in a "don't eat your pets" sort of way.

horse_poor

Jan. 27, 2004, 08:54 PM

welcome to the boards marie!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

be assured mari is not a troll-in fact one of her beasties is staying toasty warm in sir aristotles too small royal robes.

marie posted this on another list i belong too, and i also suggested speaking to this person about the number of drugs/supplements a horse ingests in their life that makes them unfit in human consumption--i would hype this up and compare it to mad cow disease!

i too find the idea odd and it turns my stomach.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

molly
*member of just about every clique*
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

Lisi

Jan. 27, 2004, 09:01 PM

It's just weird that she wants to eat her OWN horse. I wouldn't eat any horsemeat, but I think if I had pet cows I wouldn't eat beef either. I wouldn't want to eat my friends' contemporaries. And I definitely wouldn't want to eat my friends.

Eventer55

Jan. 27, 2004, 09:04 PM

How incredibly bizzare and really weird, not to mention callous, cruel, and down right disgusting. Civilized people do not slaughter pets for their own consumption. In fact they do not slaughter them for any reason. I wonder what else she is capable of doing? I would probably change barns, it would be too creepy to have her even near my horses.

Also, I didn't think it was legal in this country to slaughter horses for our consumption as they are designated pets??? Can someone clarify this? I know it is illegal to eat dogs and cats.

"When Allah created the horse he said. . . Thou shalt fly without wings and conquer without sword."

vxf111

Jan. 27, 2004, 09:21 PM

Obviously this person is (a) from a radically different background/ culture or (b) has a screw loose. What would I do if I was in your shoes? Try your best to buy the mare. If that didn't work, I would tell her that you can't accept her decision to slaughter and eat her aged mare and that you will not allow the slaughter to occur on your premesis (your perogrative) nor will you allow her to continue boarding her colt (also your perogative). If she won't sell the mare to you, then I don't know what else you can do-- I but I would NOT want someone with those beliefs hanging around my barn. I would want her to take all the horses in pre-slaughter phase off my property.

~Veronica

"The Son Dee Times"
"Sustained"

vxf111

Jan. 27, 2004, 09:23 PM

A sort of inappropriate thing you COULD do, if you were mad enough (I am NOT advocating this-- just throwing it out there) is to try to shame her into selling/ giving up the mare. I don't know how you'd do this, call her friends, local TV news, local rescue groups, PETA etc. and make a big stink about it. Or don't even do this, just threaten to do it. She might just give you the mare to save the hassle of being made to look bad. I don't know how nice doing this would be-- but if you're only repeating what she said then it's not slander/ libel and it MIGHT have some effect on her.

"The Son Dee Times"
"Sustained"

horse_poor

Jan. 27, 2004, 10:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by vxf111:
A sort of inappropriate thing you COULD do, if you were mad enough (I am NOT advocating this-- just throwing it out there) is to try to shame her into selling/ giving up the mare. I don't know how you'd do this, call her friends, local TV news, local rescue groups, PETA etc. and make a big stink about it. Or don't even do this, just threaten to do it. She might just give you the mare to save the hassle of being made to look bad. I don't know how nice doing this would be-- but if you're only repeating what she said then it's not slander/ libel and it MIGHT have some effect on her.

"The Son Dee Times"
"Sustained"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hate to say it but i agree

can you see the leading news headline?

"WI woman plans on slaughtering and eatting own horse"

might get an uproaor going but it might save this poor mare

then send her to me marie http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

molly
*member of just about every clique*
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Cherry

Jan. 27, 2004, 10:50 PM

I would call your local horse rescue--maybe you can get a court injunction to prevent this woman from eating her horse until the woman is examined by a psychiatrist and declared legally insane!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And yes--the drugs, dewormers and topical preparations (like Furazone and Kopertox) these horses receive would be enough to turn me against horsemeat even if I didn't find the idea of eating horsemeat repulsive (which I do! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif )

Coreene

Jan. 27, 2004, 11:10 PM

Many times the horses that are chemically euthanized, which are not supposed to be used for dog food, are used for exactly that. A fate which befalls many more So Cal horses than one would have originally thought. So many Fidos be chowing down on that if the food comes from a can.

Slightly OT. Sadly, when my cousin's daughter's horse came down with laminitis in all four feet (they went to feed in the a.m. and it had happened), he was trailered to the local butcher's place. This was in Holland. Recently she said that quite often, if the horse was insured and needed to be euthanized, that's what you did - instead of calling the vet, you called the butcher. Ugh.

Kachoo

Jan. 27, 2004, 11:20 PM

Holy crap - that's the weirdest thing I've ever heard. Honestly, I'm not against the idea of people eating horse meat. If it's cool in their culture, then who the heck am I to judge them?

However, I do have issues with someone wanting to eat their own horse. I have enough trouble understanding those kids who raise a calf from birth for show, taking care of it and (from all outward appearances, anyway) loving it, only to sell it to slaughter once they're done. And they're not even the ones eating it! This is just so strange to me. I doubt I could even eat one of my guys if they were stranded on a desert island with me, and there was no food.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!" ~Homer Simpson

DoubleTwistedWire

Jan. 27, 2004, 11:56 PM

It's a bizarre plan, to be sure, but legally, I don't think there's anything preventing it. Then again, coming from a very agricultural area where there are a lot of people (including some of my own family) who have raised animals to slaughter (and even eaten their own), it's not even that repulsive to me. If this were a cow rather than a horse, would anyone bat an eye?

The last time I was in Europe, I was very tempted to try horse, just out of curiosity. The panicked looks of my dining companions quashed those plans as soon as they were mentioned, however http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Two Toofs

Jan. 28, 2004, 03:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by deltawave:
It's her animal, and whether we like it or not eating horsemeat isn't illegal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, in some states, it is illegal. It's also illegal in some states to be in possession of horsemeat intended for human consumption.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Many times the horses that are chemically euthanized, which are not supposed to be used for dog food, are used for exactly that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Horsemeat has not been used in pet foods for nearly 20 years now.

and re: the medication angle- the meat truly is tainted if the horse has ever received bute during it's lifetime. Tainted horsemeat from the US is sent to Europe all the time in this country, while they themselves do not allow the slaughter for human consumption of any horse who has received bute during it's lifetime. The foreign-owned US slaughterhouses knowingly are slowly poisoning their European customers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

Food and Drug Administration

21 CFR Part 530

[Docket No. 03N-0024]

New Animal Drugs; Phenylbutazone; Extralabel Animal Drug Use;
Order of Prohibition

AGENCY: Food and Drug Administration, HHS.

ACTION: Final rule.

II. Phenylbutazone

Phenylbutazone became available for use in humans for the treatment
of rheumatoid arthritis and gout in 1949 (Ref. 1), but is no longer
approved, and thus not marketed, for any human use in the United
States. This is because some patients treated with phenylbutazone have
experienced severe toxic reactions, and other effective, less toxic
drugs are available to treat the same conditions (Refs. 1 and 2).
Phenylbutazone is known for its ulcerogenic, nephrotoxic, and
hemotoxic effects in horses, dogs, rats, and humans (Refs. 2, 4, 5, 6,
7, and 8). It is known to induce blood dyscrasias, including aplastic
anemia, leukopenia, agranulocytosis, thrombocytopenia, and deaths
(Refs. 7 and 8). The reported adverse reactions were associated with
the human clinical use of 200 to 800 milligrams phenylbutazone per day
(Refs. 7 and 8). Hypersensitivity reactions of the serum-sickness type
have also been reported in patients with phenylbutazone. The threshold
for this effect has not been defined. Therefore, it is unclear what
level of exposure would be required to trigger such reactions in
sensitive people. Moreover, phenylbutazone is a carcinogen, as
determined by the National Toxicology Program (NTP) based on positive
results in genotoxicity tests and some evidence of carcinogenicity seen
in the rat and mouse in carcinogenicity bioassays NTP conducted (Ref.
3).
For animals, phenylbutazone is currently approved only for oral and
injectable use in dogs and horses. Use in horses is limited to use in
horses not intended for food. There are currently no approved uses of
phenylbutazone in food-producing animals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Louise

Jan. 28, 2004, 03:31 AM

Could she be threatening to do this, knowing how most people feel, in the hopes that those around her will offer to buy the horse, and keep raising the amount the longer she holds out?

---------------------------
"This it be die most importante thing in die world, that someone they loff us."
Willem

Dancing Lawn

Jan. 28, 2004, 04:06 AM

This is an opportunity to turn this into a media circus. Call the newspapers, radios, t.v. stations, and set up interviews. Maybe someone can interview HER! Get pictures. Post them everywhere. Get all the horse publications in on it. Check your local laws, and see if it's even legal for her to do this. Goodluck. This woman sounds pathetic.

less hard work, more fine dining.
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If guys can do it, how hard can it be?

stegall

Jan. 28, 2004, 04:36 AM

To answer some questions: horses are not viewed as pets. They are recognized by the USDA as livestock, and as such are subject to the same regulations.

As far as I am aware, I am fairly certain that CA is currently the only state that prohibits slaughter of horses for human consumption.

That being said, horsemeat is still very much available in pet foods. As an example, a feed store I know here in my state sells cans of it. It is labeled just that: Horsemeat.
Granted, there does not seem to be a large market for it......

Because of the use of horses in pet foods, this is why the CA law stipulated horses will not be slaughtered for "human consumption".

And, the drugs being present in horses definately makes them considered to be tainted.
No horse technically is supposed to be sent to the renderer that has been given most types of drugs we commonly use, such as bute, wormers, ace, whatever. Although, I can't remember exactly, but I believe there is a "let down" period concerning drugs. In other words, this is not a lifetime coverage, but I think I remember reading that it cannot be within the last 90 days of slaughter. I am fuzzy on the details, so I could be wrong-or that may be regarding specific drugs. I'll have to do a search and see.

So, what she is planning seems very bizarre, (and ick, I would't do it), but I don't believe it is illegal.

saje

Jan. 28, 2004, 04:57 AM

Well, my take on it is that a 20 yo horse is not exactly going to be particularly good eating. Dry and stringy I would bet. That's going to be a whole lot of stew meat.

There's a reason that top cuts of meat come from young animals, and 5 yo dairy cows go for hamburger and pet food.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif is all I can say

M.K.Smith

Jan. 28, 2004, 04:57 AM

Tell her the mare is old and the meat will be really tough http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

What color is the mare? I've heard a rumor that grey horsemeat isn't considered good. Not sure where I heard that from or if there is any truth to that.

I'd also take the route of so many common equine products contaminate the meat and could be dangerous to her. Point out how the horse was recently wormed, had bute for the stiffness, kopertox for the thrush, and furizone for the cuts & scrapes, etc.

The media would have a hay day (no pun intended) with this. I would think if they got involved, you would be able to purchase the horse rather quickly. What she wants to do is probably not illegal (there are thousands and thousands and thousands of horses slaughtered in this country every year), but the general population would find it very distasteful (again no pun intended).

In this country horses are considered livestock, but they exist in the grey area between companion and livestock animals.

Does the lady not like her horse? Has she given any reasons for wanting to eat her?

Personally, I can't see ever wanting to consume any of my horses, even the one that gets on my nerves, but that is just my opinon.

I have friends that calve out one or two calves, raise the calves, and then have them sent off to be slaughtered. They usually keep a side of beef and sell the rest to friends. Their cattle are very friendly and will lick your hands. The wife cries every year when they take the cattle away. However, it is a way to have "chemical free" beef and it is socially acceptable to eat beef in the US. In the US, eating your horse is not generally
considered socially acceptable.

Best of luck on saving this mare from her owner.

MKB...

________
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Silk

Jan. 28, 2004, 05:00 AM

Human consumption of horsemeat in the USA is illegal.

**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg

Two Toofs

Jan. 28, 2004, 05:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by stegall:
To answer some questions: horses are not viewed as pets. They are recognized by the USDA as livestock, and as such are subject to the same regulations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This varies from state to state though. Some put them under the same Animal Welfare laws as companion animals, in most places your grain, etc., is also taxed like pet food would be. In some states, they are referred to by law as livestock in one place, companions in another place. The livestock vs. pet issue is really a non-issue anyway. An animal does not have to be used for meat to be considered livestock. Livestock is individually defined in each law and act and the definitions vary from legislation to legislation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
As far as I am aware, I am fairly certain that CA is currently the only state that prohibits slaughter of horses for human consumption.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Texas does as well. That's what all the hullaballo is about with the TX slaughter houses right now. It's been illegal there to slaughter horses for human consumption since 1949. The attorney general, once becoming aware of the law, tried to enforce it. The slaughter plants filed for an injunction and the whole matter is under review right now. Betty Brown tried to get a law passed making it legal in TX. It failed. Other states have laws that do not allow for the slaughter of horses for human consumption if the consumption is take place in the United States.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
That being said, horsemeat is still very much available in pet foods. As an example, a feed store I know here in my state sells cans of it. It is labeled just that: Horsemeat.
Granted, there does not seem to be a large market for it......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "horsemeat" petfood is something that is very rare, and is always labeled as such - generally used by hunters. Not "very much available". There is no horsemeat in any of the dog or cat food you buy such as Alpo, Pedigree, etc., etc. (even off name brands). AAFCO requires it to be specifically listed on the ingredients of any pet food if contained - "meat by products" include beef, poultry & swine. Anything else must specifically give the type of meat-by product. Search the shelves of your local grocery or pet store. You won't find it listed on the ingredients of any petfoods for two reasons, 1) they quit using it because the public did not like the idea of using horses in their pets food and 2) it's not considered safe enough because of the drugs used and the lack of withdrawl periods for most of those drugs used in horses. But we send that same meat off to Europeans.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Because of the use of horses in pet foods, this is why the CA law stipulated horses will not be slaughtered for "human consumption".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And zoo animals (the major market for horse meat other than for human consumption, although it is still a relatively small percentage of the meat given to zoo animals).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>And, the drugs being present in horses definately makes them considered to be tainted.
No horse technically is supposed to be sent to the renderer that has been given most types of drugs we commonly use, such as bute, wormers, ace, whatever. Although, I can't remember exactly, but I believe there is a "let down" period concerning drugs. In other words, this is not a lifetime coverage, but I think I remember reading that it cannot be within the last 90 days of slaughter. I am fuzzy on the details, so I could be wrong-or that may be regarding specific drugs. I'll have to do a search and see.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rendering is different than slaughter. There are no drug usage laws regarding the rendering of horses. Rendered animals are not fit for consumption, and that is why they can be euthanized prior to rendering. The chemicals used to euthanise a horse make the meat unusuable for consumption.

Bute, clenobuteral and others (there are about 12 different medications that fall into this category according to FDA regulations) are not to be given within the lifetime of the animal if it is to be used for food. Bute is banned for useage in cattle in the US used for food products. No withdrawl period, it's just plain not allowed. It stays with them for years. This is why Europe is now having to issue passports for all horses. They are to be marked either for or not for human consumption. Once the passport is marked not for human consumption, the designation can never be changed by future owners and the horse can never be used for human consumption at any time. In order to be able to use bute, etc., on those horses, they must be marked not for human consumption. Vets cannot give these meds without seeing the passports.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>So, what she is planning seems very bizarre, (and ick, I would't do it), but I don't believe it is illegal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is illegal in some states. In IL, it is indeed illegal to consume horsemeat.

http://www.agr.state.il.us/AnimalHW/awflaws.html

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The Horse Meat Act outlaws the use of horse meat for human consumption in Illinois. However, zoos may use horse meat for exotic animals, and animal feed producers may include it to produce exotic animal feed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Two Toofs

Jan. 28, 2004, 05:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mkbrown:

What color is the mare? I've heard a rumor that grey horsemeat isn't considered good. Not sure where I heard that from or if there is any truth to that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is because of melanomas. Killer buyers will generally turn down grey horses because of this.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Kels

Jan. 28, 2004, 05:31 AM

I think, in the past couple of days, I have decided to become a vegetarian again! Blech!!!!

-Kelsey-
Tomorrow's another day, and I'm thirsty anyway; so bring on the rain.

SaddleFitterVA

Jan. 28, 2004, 06:09 AM

While I have no desire to try horse meat, I have no problem with someone wanting to eat it.

If she was slaughtering her steer, nobody would blink an eye.

I do think that horses are nicer than cattle, but if you are going eat meat, then getting emotional about one type of animal, but not others isn't terribly logical...but emotions rarely are logical.

If she was to feed the horse to a local pack of hounds, or a zoo, it wouldn't be so terrible for most of you.

I do believe that it is illegal in Texas to eat or at least sell, horsemeat for human consumption...in that state only, but I could be imagining things.

The biggest risk of eating horse meat is that you can get trichinosis, just as you can from eating swine or bear.

It is quite bizarre for this country, but insane? Not unless everyone who raises their own food...and yours for that matter, is insane.

http://www.korea.net/kwnews/pub_focus/xcontent.asp?serial_no=20020704015

Someone who eats all sorts of things, but drew the line at dog.

I don't eat "mystery meat", I don't eat a lot of ANY meat, but horse is a valid protein source.

As for the woman, if she is that bizarre, I might consider asking her to leave....except she is already leaving. Death for slaughter by a butcher is relatively quick to the best of my knowledge. The huge plants are where most of the "mistakes" and botched jobs take place, not a local butcher who slaughters one at a time. And for horse, you'd have to find a local butcher, or send it way far away. Better local slaughter than hauling to Texas or Canada to one of the big slaughter plants.

Mel

cedarboy

Jan. 28, 2004, 06:09 AM

If the horse is going to be dead anyway, who cares what she does with it? I don't understand the reasoning here. Just because something is disgusting to you it should not be allowed for another person? You want to create a 'media circus' to prevent this person from eating horse meat. Why?

I used to know someone who had a pet pig that got too big. They slaughtered it and ate it. Whoop dee doo.

When life gives you llamas, make llamanaid

Clive's Mom

Jan. 28, 2004, 06:11 AM

Are you sure she means to eat the horse herself? It is fairly common here in hunt country to slaughter a horse and donate the meat to the local hunt for their dogs. Does she mean to do that?

Also - she'll be in for a nasty surprise if she means to eat it herself. There is a reason why horse is not a common delicacy around the world. The smell of horse meat alone can put you off your feed for days. And yes, I have smelled (but didn't dare taste) horsemeat when I lived in Germany and we were visiting in France. Blech!

Alagirl

Jan. 28, 2004, 06:14 AM

I promissed myself not to reply to slaighter issues...a heck!

For one, the individual is obviously not attached to the horse, being out of state, so it is more of lifestock than a pet to her.

If she likes to eat horsemeat, more power to her, if we equestrians would drop our goodytwoshoes attitude about it, less horses would have to go on treaturous rides to far off places - and know, since it is not PC I refraint from trying Horse bratwurst on a Christmas market in Germany, chickened out....

Somebody brought up BSE/Mad Cow - all the more reason to switch to nonbovine meats...

The woman is not insane, definetly not in legal way. Strange maybe, for our taste crazy, ut not insane!

Most meds clear out within 30 days or so, so that won't hold up as an excuse, but why would somebody eat 20 year old beast?!
If you really want to stop the woman, I'd choose that angle, or you'd be setting up frontiers, angering her and you will not get the desired results.

The laws on how you can kill what and for whom vary greatly from state to state, as I believe there is little to prevent you from taking your - uh - cow to the back forty and have the deed done.

Sorry, though I do find her request strange I have heard of folks buying horses just for the Salami they get out of them, like on the farm you would handle cows and pigs...or rabbits

BTW, if the ,hmm, deed is done right, it is not in anyway traumatic for the animal, and how the earthy remains are used really doesn't make this much of a difference...

Talk Spotted Dogs
http://pub31.ezboard.com/fdalmatianplantationmessageboardfrm1

ESG

Jan. 28, 2004, 06:14 AM

I would second the media blitz idea, as well as calling the local law and finding out just where it stands regarding human consumption of horse meat. Tell this fizzlewit what you've found, and tell her that you will go to the proper authorities and have her charged under applicable laws if she persists in this idiocy.

Just when you think you've heard everything.................. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

Alagirl

Jan. 28, 2004, 06:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ESG:
I would second the media blitz idea, as well as calling the local law and finding out just where it stands regarding human consumption of horse meat. Tell this fizzlewit what you've found, and tell her that you _will_ go to the proper authorities and have her charged under applicable laws if she persists in this idiocy.

Just when you think you've heard everything.................. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Media blitz...BE CAREFULL you end up getting more than you bargain for, it could up hurting everybody else worse than the one lady or help this one horse...

I can tell you only to pick your fights wisely - and no, you don't want to bring in PETA...

Talk Spotted Dogs
http://pub31.ezboard.com/fdalmatianplantationmessageboardfrm1

Two Toofs

Jan. 28, 2004, 06:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Alagirl:

Most meds clear out within 30 days or so, so that won't hold up as an excuse, but why would somebody eat 20 year old beast?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not the case with bute and 12 other meds according to the FDA. That's why they are not allowed for use in cattle (or other food animals) at all - ever. It's just fact plain & simple. Bute is the main reason that European horses are receiving passports these days. Because they are considered food animals in some parts of Europe, and they are having problems with bute entering the food chain. So you get a passport, and you mark your horse not for human consumption if you want to be able to use bute (and a few other meds). If you don't have it marked as such, you cannot have use of the medications. At all.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Subpart E--Safe Levels for Extralabel Use of Drugs in Animals and Drugs Prohibited From Extralabel Use in Animals

Sec. 530.41 Drugs prohibited for extralabel use in animals.

(a) The following drugs, families of drugs, and substances are
prohibited
for extralabel animal and human drug uses in food-producing animals.
(1) Chloramphenicol;
(2) Clenbuterol;
(3) Diethylstilbestrol (DES);
(4) Dimetridazole;
(5) Ipronidazole;
(6) Other nitroimidazoles;
(7) Furazolidone.
(8) Nitrofurazone.
(9) Sulfonamide drugs in lactating dairy cattle (except approved use
of sulfadimethoxine, sulfabromomethazine, and sulfaethoxypyridazine);
(10) Fluoroquinolones; and
(11) Glycopeptides.
(b) The following drugs, families of drugs, and substances are
prohibited for extralabel animal and human drug uses in nonfood-
producing animals: [Reserved]

[62 FR 27947, May 22, 1997, as amended at 67 FR 5471, Feb. 6, 2002]

Effective Date Notes: 1. At 68 FR 9530, Feb. 28, 2003, Sec. 530.41
was amended by adding paragraph (a)(12), effective May 29, 2003. For the
convenience of the user, the added text is set forth as follows:

Sec. 530.41 Drugs prohibited for extralabel use in animals.

(a) * * *
(12) Phenylbutazone.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Alagirl

Jan. 28, 2004, 06:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Alagirl:

Most meds clear out within 30 days or so, so that won't hold up as an excuse, but why would somebody eat 20 year old beast?!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not the case with bute and 12 other meds according to the FDA. That's why they are not allowed for use in cattle (or other food animals) at all - ever. It's just fact plain & simple. Bute is the main reason that European horses are receiving passports these days. Because they are considered food animals in some parts of Europe, and they are having problems with bute entering the food chain. So you get a passport, and you mark your horse not for human consumption if you want to be able to use bute (and a few other meds). If you don't have it marked as such, you cannot have use of the medications. At all.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am always open to education...

Thanks

Talk Spotted Dogs
http://pub31.ezboard.com/fdalmatianplantationmessageboardfrm1

shadytrake

Jan. 28, 2004, 06:57 AM

This is an outdated article, but still interesting:

Americans squeamish over horse meat

Archive
By BILL MAXWELL, Times Columnist
© St. Petersburg Times
published September 4, 2002

SAN ANGELO, Texas -- If you relish cheval burgers with your onion rings and cold brew, do not look to menus in American restaurants. Sure, you can find horse meat in most states, but you will be hard-pressed to hear chefs trumpeting this fact.

In beef-loving America, eating horse flesh is anathema. We raise cows, hogs and sheep for food, not horses. Most us see horses as pets, companions, playmates and beasts of burden. We cannot imagine roasting or barbecuing the likes of Trigger, Silver, Flicka, Black Beauty and Mr. Ed.

But many other countries, especially those recently hard hit by mad cow and other disease, consider horse meat to be a nutritious staple and will pay big bucks for it. The Dallas Morning News reports that of the 6.9-million horses in America in 2001, 57,000 were slaughtered, mostly for human consumption.

Two U.S. companies, both in Texas, have cornered a large part of the world's equine flesh market. An Illinois company that sold horse meat burned down last year and has not rebuilt. With 150 workers, Dallas Crown Inc. and Beltex Corp. kill nearly 1,000 horses a week. The process -- from herding the animals into corrals, to condemning them to the killing room, to packing and shipping tasty loins -- takes all of four days.

The protein-rich, lean meat is sent to the butchers and restaurateurs of Asia, mainly Japan, and Europe, mainly France. Here in the United States, zoos buy the meat for their big cats and other carnivores.

In America, unlike in other horse-flesh producing nations, such as Romania and Belgium, public opposition to eating horse runs high. Animal-protection groups, led by the Texas Humane Legislation Network, are trying to shut down the multimillion-dollar industry.

Interpreting a 1949 Texas law as prohibiting possession, sale or shipment of horse meat for human consumption, the organization argues that Crown and Beltex are operating illegally. The network has gained the support of the Texas attorney general.

For their part, Crown and Beltex are mounting a vigorous campaign to save their skins. They see themselves as legitimate outfits serving at least two legitimate needs: They help satisfy the palates of millions of diners worldwide, and they pay owners to dispose of animals that have outlived their usefulness.

About the horses that are slaughtered, Oliver Kemseke, the owner of Crown, voiced his puzzlement over American's love of horses to the Morning News: "Most of (the horses) here are cripples or have back problems or are crazy in the head. We're a business just like any business. But it's a sensitive matter what we do. . . . These people don't understand. . . . We don't kill a horse unless there's something wrong. . . . There are a lot of horses in this country, and you people don't eat it. It's just a piece of meat."

Critics believe that Kemseke, a Romanian, and his colleagues tell only part of the story. Greedy horse dealers, critics argue, sell healthy horses to Crown and Beltex. As a result, an everything-is-fair-game atmosphere has developed. Many horse thieves are said to steal for and sell only to the slaughterhouses.

But Kemseke and officials at Beltex enjoy strong support in some surprising places, according to the Morning News. Many horse owners who cannot or are unwilling to pay for caring for injured or old mounts like Kemseke. These owners do not want to pay hundreds of dollars for traditional disposal, which involves injection, perhaps burial or transport to a dump.

Another surprising supporter is Dr. Tom Lenz, president-elect of the 7,000-member American Association of Equine Practitioners. "The issue is what do you do with unwanted horses," he said. "Some people can't afford to keep them."

Lenz, who has witnessed slaughters at Beltex, said the industry kills horses "humanely." The companies use the same method used to kill cows and other live stock that we eat: a quick killing blow of a stun gun to the head. Veterinarians worry that if the Texas network succeeds in banning horse meat processing in this country, our unwanted animals will be sent to the busy killing floors of Canada and Mexico.

A mystified Kemseke believes that Americans' sentimentality has made the horse a sacred cow. Further, the closing of U.S. plants would result in the needlessly expensive, unintended consequence of euthanizing and burying tens of thousands of horses annually. Kemseke reasons that if we are going to kill horses anyway, why not use the meat as food? In reality, he said, Americans cannot stop horse slaughtering everywhere in the world.

"If Noah had been truly wise, he would have swatted those two flies."-Helen Castle

Proud member of the Clean Horse, Dirty House Clique! Founder of the Goodbye Fat, Hello Muscle Clique!

horse_poor

Jan. 28, 2004, 07:06 AM

marie-i sent this issue to the mn hooved animal society--their email is 'info@mnhoovedanimalrescue.org' if you or anyone else wants to contact them

i have sent you a pt as well about this

molly
*member of just about every clique*
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

equest

Jan. 28, 2004, 07:20 AM

Blech :shudder:

I know it is a cultural prejudice, but I feel that eating horse is as taboo as the thought of dining on a cat or dog. My boyfriend is French and he has eaten horse meat (although I don't think he liked it THAT much, he does not talk about missing horsemeat like he does about other delicacies he can't get here). But I doubt he would eat a horse that he or a family member owned or was attached to.

As has been noted, absent local or state regulations, there's absolutely nothing one can do other than express their disgust.

Jennasis

Jan. 28, 2004, 07:23 AM

It's been said before and I agree. If this were a steer nobody would be batting an eye. She lives out of state and has ZERO emotional attachment to the mare. She obviously views it as livestock. It is her animal to do with as she pleases. She is not abusing it or making it suffer. She is having it well cared for before it's death.

As for the media blitz...not a good idea from a business point of view. Do y0ou really want the stigma of being "the barn where the horse-eating lady boarded."? If you tell PETA, they'll likely kidnap the poor thing in the middle of the night....not great for PR.

Offer the buy the horse. Or ask her why she is so adamant about eating it. HAs she actually said "I'm going to eat it."

Strange thing for her to want to do, but insane? Nope. not illegal. Just not accepted.

Remember...though eagles may soar, weasles never get sucked into a jet engine.

Soar like a weasle my friend.

Pol

Jan. 28, 2004, 07:57 AM

Vegetarians unite.....

Phaxxton

Jan. 28, 2004, 08:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jennasis:
It's been said before and I agree. If this were a steer nobody would be batting an eye. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree.

I'm on the fence about the whole slaughter issue, and I'm not a vegetarian... but I still think eating your pets is weird and, yes, disgusting. If she had a whole herd and she was raising horses for meat (or any other animal), that would be different in my opinion. She's got one horse, though, and even though people have offered to buy it, she wants to eat it. That's weird to me. And it would be weird to me if she had a single cow pet and wanted to slaughter it and eat it.

goobs

Jan. 28, 2004, 08:04 AM

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!! How repulsive! Eating your own animal? What is wrong with a trip to the supermarket? That is just so disgusting to me. Does she own horses for consumption purposes? I hope she doesn't have any dogs or cats! ICK!

apps4me

Jan. 28, 2004, 08:04 AM

Why not use the news media about this? Perhaps, if the public was aware of this, might put pressure on the owner to rethink this! When you see certain things on TV and this story is worth seeing on TV, the owner might have a change of heart.

caffeinated

Jan. 28, 2004, 08:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phaxxton:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jennasis:
It's been said before and I agree. If this were a steer nobody would be batting an eye. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree.

I'm on the fence about the whole slaughter issue, and I'm not a vegetarian... but I still think eating your pets is weird and, yes, disgusting. If she had a whole herd and she was raising horses for meat (or any other animal), that would be different in my opinion. She's got one horse, though, and even though people have offered to buy it, she wants to eat it. That's weird to me. And it would be weird to me if she had a single cow pet and wanted to slaughter it and eat it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see why that's weird. My family often buys a calf or a young pig, takes care of it for a year or two, gives the creature a name, then we butcher it and have meat in our freezer for a while. And I know we're not the only people in the world to do so.

I wouldn't eat my own horse. And I see how this is unpleasant for some people... but the fact remains that it's HER horse to do what she wishes with, and it's getting good and humane care for now. Abhorrent, maybe.... but illegal and worthy of creating a media circus? I don't think so...

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**

vxf111

Jan. 28, 2004, 09:02 AM

<<I don't see why that's weird. My family often buys a calf or a young pig, takes care of it for a year or two, gives the creature a name, then we butcher it and have meat in our freezer for a while. And I know we're not the only people in the world to do so.

I wouldn't eat my own horse. And I see how this is unpleasant for some people... but the fact remains that it's HER horse to do what she wishes with, and it's getting good and humane care for now. Abhorrent, maybe.... but illegal and worthy of creating a media circus? I don't think so...

>>

What's weird is that this ISN'T a case of someone buying an animal to raise for meat, then slaughtering it. This is a 20 YEAR OLD MARE who is apparently a riding horse that the owner has bred. You don't buy a steer nd keep it for 20 years and then send it off to slaughter. This is a person who had an animal and maintained it as a pet/ riding animal and then suddenly decided to slaughter and eat it. That's the part of the story that makes it bizarre. Not that it's a horse over a cow or that it's one as opposed to a whole herd. It's that this woman is willing to eat something which she previously regarded as a pet and riding animal. THAT has an element of the bizarre that raising your own steers FOR meat (even if you name them and have feelings for them) DOESN'T have.

~Veronica

"The Son Dee Times"
"Sustained"

caffeinated

Jan. 28, 2004, 09:06 AM

But it's still HER horse... I don't think her plans for it are inhumane, so I don't see why there are questions regarding her sanity, etc...

This is one of those situations where, as abhorrent as it might be to some of us, the facts are that it's her animal to do what she wants with, and she's not torturing it or anything. I understand the revulsion but to try and seize the horse or alert the media, etc...

Just because she's had the animal for 20 years does NOT make it THAT different in my mind to go questioning her sanity or running to the police/PETA/News media over it...

edited to add- my comment about raising calves/steers/pigs not being "weird" was also in response to someone who thought "And it would be weird to me if she had a single cow pet and wanted to slaughter it and eat it."
_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**

Alagirl

Jan. 28, 2004, 09:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> It's that this woman is willing to eat something which she previously regarded as a pet and riding animal. THAT has an element of the bizarre that raising your own steers FOR meat (even if you name them and have feelings for them) DOESN'T have.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are assuming that everybody riding needs to have a deeper feeling for the horse...
I can find a bunch of folks that couldn't care less, and what about those fellows who killed them off for monetary gains...eating is far more ethical...

The bizarre thing is that some one wants to eat meat of a 20 year old critter...lions would pass it up for something more tender!!!!

Talk Spotted Dogs
http://pub31.ezboard.com/fdalmatianplantationmessageboardfrm1

Horsepower

Jan. 28, 2004, 09:14 AM

I haven't read the whole thread, but why don't you find out how much the slaughter house is planning on paying her and offer the same amount to buy the horse from her? I am assuming getting off the hook financially is her motivation and not that she literally wants the pleasure of eating her horse herself (too weird to contemplate).

"The older I get the harder the ground hits."

Horsepower

Jan. 28, 2004, 09:18 AM

OK, I can't resist. I'd hate to be her husband. What would she plan on eating if he gets old and sickly? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"The older I get the harder the ground hits."

Celebrity

Jan. 28, 2004, 09:19 AM

Yeah offer her the same money and buy her a cow carcus or something to curb her yurning to eat large farm animals..
This is so awful it has deeply disturbed me.. how on EARTH could you do that to your horse? It just doesn't make any sense to me. If I ever see the day where I want to eat my horse someone SHOOT me!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

Holsteiner Clique!!
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diKecnadnuS

Jan. 28, 2004, 09:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Eventer55:
How incredibly bizzare and really weird, not to mention callous, cruel, and down right disgusting. Civilized people do not slaughter pets for their own consumption. In fact they do not slaughter them for any reason. I wonder what else she is capable of doing? I would probably change barns, it would be too creepy to have her even near my horses.

Also, I didn't think it was legal in this country to slaughter horses for our consumption as they are designated pets??? Can someone clarify this? I know it is illegal to eat dogs and cats.

"When Allah created the horse he said. . . Thou shalt fly without wings and conquer without sword."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I would never eat a horse, let alone my own horse...I know many people who have come from families that raise cattle and sheep. Their prized show calf or show sheep one day became dinner.

My family occasionally slaughters our sheep (which are all tame) as well as our tamed chickens. Its harder than anything to know that what you are about to eat could potentially be your pet (hence why I don't eat ANY lamb). But, I think saying that it is uncivilized is ridiculous. While I'd hate to be in the position of having a boarder want to eat their horse...I do think its uncalled for to say civilized people don't eat their pets. When we had cattle I got in BIG TROUBLE when my dad found out that I had named one of the cows (there was always a rule you didn't name the cows) because they all ended up going to the slaughter house.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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SunshineGA

Jan. 28, 2004, 09:38 AM

I don't think you can "legally" stop her honestly. It is her horse, and horses are on the fence of being considered "livestock" or pets. To some, they are "livestock" to others they are "pets".

In the US, cattle are considered "livestock" (for the most part!) but if you go to India, they're considered "pets".

To her, this is an acceptable concept! (But not for me!I would never ever be able to eat my own horse, or any horse for that matter just because they are considered more than "pets" in my world.)

She does need to realize though that wormers and such can stay in the system for a very long time. And are probably not healthy for us to eat. She may not get enough of a dose to kill her exactly, but it's still probably not very healthy.

Its not a good idea to call peta or call the news, you may just get a suit back in your face (slander?). You can also get a bad name for yourself (do you want to be considered radical?). Although it may seem like a great idea now, it may not be the best for the long run.

Its her horse, her health, her decision. We may not like it or agree with it, but right now it doesn't seem like you can really do anything about it (although I would love to be able to stop her!).

Good luck and watch your step!

"When life gives you limes, make margaritas!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Member of the IHSA clique

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ailis36

Jan. 28, 2004, 10:33 AM

For those of you who insist on rationalizing this woman's behaviour, fine...but in my world eating your pets is weird, disturbing and just plain "dahmer-ish" . Yes, and I know they eat dogs and cats in Asia but I don't happen to live in Asia. And if she doesn't consider the horse a pet why the heck did she pay board for it for all these years.

wendy

Jan. 28, 2004, 10:36 AM

well, in some ways it makes sense. She wants the horse put down due to its age and infirmities. So she'll have this dead animal she'll have to dispose of somehow. Kind of makes sense to eat it. Otherwise, what happens to the body? does anyone know? some guy just comes and takes ours away. I always assumed they were ground up and turned into some product or products.

Ghazzu

Jan. 28, 2004, 10:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Silk:
Human consumption of horsemeat in the USA is illegal.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cite the relevant federal law, please.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

mwalshe

Jan. 28, 2004, 10:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by cedarboy:
If the horse is going to be dead anyway, who cares what she does with it? I don't understand the reasoning here. Just because something is disgusting to you it should not be allowed for another person? You want to create a 'media circus' to prevent this person from eating horse meat. Why?

I used to know someone who had a pet pig that got too big. They slaughtered it and ate it. Whoop dee doo. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree. I've eaten animals I knew personally and I'm pretty sure I'm not insane. It's not your horse and she's not doing anything cruel, just something you consider weird.

Ghazzu

Jan. 28, 2004, 10:53 AM

Is the woman a few bricks shy of a load?
Likely.
Is she breaking a law?
Unlikely.
Would you be happy setting a precedent that total strangers who didn't like what you were doing with an animal that you legally owned, even though what you were doing might be perfectly within the law, made a big whoop de doo and foced you to stop it, simply because they found it weird and personally distasteful?
Unlikely.

Go for it, and don't be surprised when the Strasserites try to keep you from shoeing your horse because it's cruel and unnatural to nail anything to a living being, or the PETA types shut down the horse shows because the horses are being forced to perfrom acts that they'd rather not do--and look, they use whips and spurs and put metal in their mouths!

Bottom line is, the horse is hers.
If she wants to do anything legal with it, she can.
Forget the specifics, and think about it from the perspective of someone else Stopping you from doing something with *your* horse because they don't like it.

Best to leave that particular door closed.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Eventer55

Jan. 28, 2004, 12:16 PM

Trying to rationalize this thing. . . Perhaps it's because as someone else pointed out that the mare was cared for and considered a pet for so long, how could one want to eat her? I'm not opposed to the slaughter industry, but some horses are "unwanted" and some are pets. As a society we cherish our pets and provide for them, and in the end give them a dignified and caring final moment. Lots of societies eat dogs, cats, and various other animals; a prime example is China (they club to death puppies in a large sack, it makes the meat tender.) Our society does not condone this sort of thing. And, it appears that the majority feels this woman is "crossing the line" in a moral sense.

Ghandi said "You can tell a society by the way it treats it's animals." We as a society have determined what is civilized and what is not, this is apparently not for most people.

"When Allah created the horse he said. . . Thou shalt fly without wings and conquer without sword."

marta

Jan. 28, 2004, 01:37 PM

actually i'd think this is illegal. there are regulations w/ re to animals used for human consumption. now maybe i'm wrong, maybe those rules apply only to large scale human consumption and not if you want to eat your own pet...
bizzarre! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"It appears we are being transformed from an information
society to an informant society." Rep. Dennis Kucinich

marta

Jan. 28, 2004, 01:40 PM

Pol~
i'm w/ you!

"It appears we are being transformed from an information
society to an informant society." Rep. Dennis Kucinich

bigbay

Jan. 28, 2004, 02:41 PM

Sorry if other people have brought this up, because I really skimmed through these pages, but here's another option:

First off, she will most likely have difficulty "finding someone to butcher it for her". Definitely no butcher in CA, TX, or IL is going to touch it, and others are probably going to want to research their state's laws pretty carefully first. Also, now that you've piqued my interest I will research this further, but something's nagging at the back of my mind regarding a federal law prohibiting interstate transport of horses intended for human consumption. So if she lives out of state, that might be your key right there.

As far as the ethics of eating that horse are concerned, I eat meat, but I simply cannot reconcile myself to the idea of eating a horse, any more than I could eat a dog or cat. Perhaps this is because I'm from California, where it's generally accepted that a horse is a companion animal under the law. And perhaps it's because I've spent quite a bit of time around beef cattle, and they are the dumbest, least companion-like animals on the face of this earth. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I'm quite aware that these are my own opinions and my own values, and I do not wish to impose them on anyone else, but if there's an applicable law in place, by all means enforce it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Oh, and perhaps the barn owner can suggest a little bute be added to the feed to make the mare and her arthritis more comfortable during these winter months. Then anonymously mail her some of Two Toofs facts on bute poisoning. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor

horse_poor

Jan. 28, 2004, 03:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wendy:
well, in some ways it makes sense. She wants the horse put down due to its age and infirmities. So she'll have this dead animal she'll have to dispose of somehow. Kind of makes sense to eat it. Otherwise, what happens to the body? does anyone know? some guy just comes and takes ours away. I always assumed they were ground up and turned into some product or products.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

we bury ours and give them gravemarkers

molly
*member of just about every clique*
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

DoubleTwistedWire

Jan. 28, 2004, 04:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by horse_poor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wendy:
well, in some ways it makes sense. She wants the horse put down due to its age and infirmities. So she'll have this dead animal she'll have to dispose of somehow. Kind of makes sense to eat it. Otherwise, what happens to the body? does anyone know? some guy just comes and takes ours away. I always assumed they were ground up and turned into some product or products.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

we bury ours and give them gravemarkers
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In some states, that's illegal as well. IIRC, it has something to do with polluting groundwater, and is most often a concern in areas where a lot of people have wells.

Box-of-Rox

Jan. 28, 2004, 05:08 PM

i am officially wigged out. yelch. I don't even know what to say, I just find that to be incredibly disturbing.

BoR:
"I always feel like an idiot. But I am an idiot, so it kinda works out."--Billy Madison

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Churchill

MyShadeOfPink

Jan. 28, 2004, 05:10 PM

Could you please a 'for the children's sake' type thing with her?

Jennie
"all these lines fall short of what i had in mind
a failed attempt to capsulize a feeling
so i just try fail and try and try again"
See my albulm Updated 11/11 (http://community.webshots.com/user/myshadeofpink)

blaster

Jan. 28, 2004, 05:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DoubleTwistedWire:
In some states, that's illegal as well. IIRC, it has something to do with polluting groundwater, and is most often a concern in areas where a lot of people have wells.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actaully, it has to do with controlling pestilence. For example, anthrax is a naturally occuring virus. It killed many horses and oxen on the famous during the migration west via the Oregon Trail. To this day, you can still find viable specimens of anthrax on the Oregon trail because the virus can be dormant and survive wicked temperature conditions.

Coreene

Jan. 28, 2004, 05:37 PM

Media is your friend. TV, radio, newspapers. If you really want to ruin her day, and I am so not kidding about this, call the Star or the National Enquirer.

horse_poor

Jan. 28, 2004, 05:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DoubleTwistedWire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by horse_poor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wendy:
well, in some ways it makes sense. She wants the horse put down due to its age and infirmities. So she'll have this dead animal she'll have to dispose of somehow. Kind of makes sense to eat it. Otherwise, what happens to the body? does anyone know? some guy just comes and takes ours away. I always assumed they were ground up and turned into some product or products.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

we bury ours and give them gravemarkers
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In some states, that's illegal as well. IIRC, it has something to do with polluting groundwater, and is most often a concern in areas where a lot of people have wells.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*shrugs* i dunno-----but they are indeed buried

molly
*member of just about every clique*
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

Jennasis

Jan. 28, 2004, 06:48 PM

Phaxxton...ugh...YES it is very weird to me. Why would someone want to eat an animal they rasied. I often wondered how farmers who rasied and showed cattle and goats and sheep and took them to county fairs and win prizes with them and such could turn around and eat them (ala Charlotte's Web).

HOWEVER, it's not illegal (just strange). The horse isn't suffering now and will not suffer a "feedlot" death. So what's the problem??? People put horses down often...some bury them (illegally as has been stated), some cremate them. I mentioned this thread to my farrier today. He laughed and recounted a story of a client of his whose beloved pony died after MANY years of loyal service. they had the carcass skinned and preserved and have it HANGING IN THEIR LIVING ROOM!. That's weird and creepy to me.

Media attention will only negatively affect your barn and may result in legal action from the woman. Just chalk it up to weirdness..or...offer to buy the horse if it's that upsetting, or kick her out and tell her you don't want "her type" in the barn.

Remember...though eagles may soar, weasles never get sucked into a jet engine.

Soar like a weasle my friend.

Ghazzu

Jan. 28, 2004, 06:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by blaster:
[Actaully, it has to do with controlling pestilence. For example, anthrax is a naturally occuring virus. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, anthrax is a naturally occurring bacterium. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Dressage Dreamer

Jan. 28, 2004, 06:59 PM

Or if that didnt work I would be deserpate enough to have her horse "just wondered off one day and can't find it". she probally would not even care.
But... that may not be the smartest approach.
So I too suggest getting them media involved. Also, contact all rescue leageus and vets. I can't believe that is not against the law!
I probally wont be able to eat again for a long time after reading this,ick.
Please keep us updated on what happens to this poor horse,I hope you can save it.

It's not the color of the ribbon that counts,but the color of the ride.

Jennasis

Jan. 28, 2004, 07:03 PM

On another note...would anyone be as offended if she simply announced that she was going to have this elderly horse euthanized?

Remember...though eagles may soar, weasles never get sucked into a jet engine.

Soar like a weasle my friend.

OLD A/O

Jan. 28, 2004, 07:13 PM

I skipped thru pages of this post after page two.

If it were me that boarded this horse I would quickly sell the horse for $10.00 or less to someone that would take the horse to love. Then I would look forward to the lawsuit for the value of the horse. Seeing that it would be by the pound I would pay the $500.00 and be done with it. I would also learn a lesson from this and never board to a non- show up boarder.

This is how I would handle it. You may not and that is your choice. Too bad you have been put in the middle of this problem!!!

Two Toofs

Jan. 28, 2004, 07:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Then I would look forward to the lawsuit for the value of the horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could also look forward to criminal charges.

Whatever is decided to be done, if anything, keep it within the bounds of the law.

There are those of us who wish to have the slaughter of horses for human consumption stopped in this country. PETA-type actions just make things harder. We don't need that type of publicity and those types of actions are not supported by the anti-slaughter supporters in general. Illegal actions hurt the cause.

Two wrongs don't make a right, especially when the second wrong is illegal, and the first "wrong" is simply a culturally unacceptable act that is dangerous to that own person's health.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Oxerbound

Jan. 28, 2004, 07:39 PM

Weird. Weird weird weird.

Did anyone actually say she bred the mare herself? At that age and her level of non-commitment, I wonder if she bought her from someone.

Now there's a creepy thought - a previous owner (perhaps a young woman to whom the mare was a childhood companion) calls her up to find out how she is -

"Oh, yes! She had some arthritic problems, but no worries anymore. In fact, I ate her liver this very morning."

All I can think of is Hannibal Lector. GALKSJDF eeeesh. To me, this is just like eating your child.

------------------------------------
"Sometimes I don't think before I speak, and it ends out coming stupid."

OLD A/O

Jan. 28, 2004, 08:13 PM

Two Hoofs - then I will sleep well in Jail. I did the right thing and by the way I am not a PETA fan. You do not know me but a month in Jail would be better to me than knowing some one was eating a horse I knew, the kids knew and I took care of.

I am just a horse lover who has kept or made sure my old guys had the best life ever. Why? This is because we love each other!!! It is a two way street with horses!!! I love them and believe it or not the horse actually loves its owner, rider, groom or etc.- just give them a chance to love you.

Some of my horses are now boarded out due to the weather and lack of space and time at my farm. They acutally know the sound of my tuck when I pull into the other farm. They run to the gate waiting for me. These are OTTB's. I JUST love it!!! My old guys are home with me- they have earned it.

Can you just imagine how Hey Marie feels? She is just running a boarding stable not a meat packing plant. She and the kids have grown to love this horse even though the owner has not. I would not want to be in her shoes for one minute!!!

Flame Suit on Flame me!!!

horse_poor

Jan. 28, 2004, 08:28 PM

i asked my roommate who owns the house and she says she has the "ok" to bury our beloved ones

but i am sure it is not legal in some places

molly
*member of just about every clique*
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

Two Toofs

Jan. 29, 2004, 03:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by OLD A/O:
Two Toofs - then I will sleep well in Jail. I did the right thing and by the way I am not a PETA fan. You do not know me but a month in Jail would be better to me than knowing some one was eating a horse I knew, the kids knew and I took care of.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How well would you sleeping knowing that if you took those actions, you would quite possibly result ruining attempts to pass legislation making it illegal to slaughter horses in this country, or make it more difficult to stop the IL plant from reopening?

What you propose to do is the exact type of action that has many dead set against this legislation passing. They feel (wrongfully so, in my opinion) that it is just a first step in chipping away your rights as a horse owner. Your actions would give them a wonderful argument to convince others that what they say might be true - more fuel for the fire - not to mention allowing them to point out the criminal activities that took place which will be painted on all who wish to stop the slaughter of horses in this country. It doesn't matter that you are not a PETA or ALF supporter, not one bit. You would be labeled as such by pro-slaughter groups and probably have PETA giving you a medal.

These are the things that "with friends like that, who needs enemies" is made of.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Ghazzu

Jan. 29, 2004, 05:57 AM

Eating a horse and making sure it had a good life are not mutually exclusive.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

lucky jenny

Jan. 29, 2004, 08:57 AM

The eating of horsemeat is purely a personal thing.
Old horses are not tough, (even though an old stallion will taste very strongly of male)provided they have not been recently trained for a stressful sport. To use a horse safely in a stressful sport : racing, jumping, pulling, eventing, endusrance etc. the horse must be prepared through a long conditioning period. This makes the muscles tough, strong, hard.

Cattle (beef) have a different mechanism. Oxen used for hauling logs, may have a few months rest after a period of work and return to work with very little conditioning, just retraining. Once the meat (muscles) are conditioned or hardened, it will stay that way, and therefore be tough. That is why prime beef is derived from animals less than 30 months of age. Old cows that have got their muscles in condition (hard) are mainly used for hamburger.
I had a 10 month old colt break a leg, and considered using him for meat, but it was middle of winter and I could not find someone to slaughter him in a blizzard.So i called the vet and the deadstock pickup.

horse_poor

Jan. 29, 2004, 09:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lucky jenny:

I had a 10 month old colt break a leg, and considered using him for meat, but it was middle of winter and I could not find someone to slaughter him in a blizzard.So i called the vet and the deadstock pickup.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

excuse me while i go vomit

molly
*member of just about every clique*
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

poltroon

Jan. 29, 2004, 09:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by goobs:
EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!! How repulsive! Eating your own animal? What is wrong with a trip to the supermarket? That is just so disgusting to me. Does she own horses for consumption purposes? I hope she doesn't have any dogs or cats! ICK!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, meat doesn't magically appear inside those shrink-wrapped packages. It used to be alive before it was cut up into convenient bits for you. Indeed, the meat at your average supermarket probably lived a miserable life before it appeared there.

I have no desire to eat horse, mine or an anonymous steak, but as long as the horse is well treated, I don't have a problem with it. Yes, it's odd - but what does it matter what will be done with the carcass after it's dead? If you think the horse is still happy and living a good life, offer to buy it, but even so, you'll run into a sadly large number of horses that are euthanized prematurely.

I think it is more civilized to raise your own meat and/or to choose meat that has been thoughtfully raised than it is to just "buy it at the supermarket" where you can pretend it never lived anyway.

Have any of you read "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Robert Heinlein? That might be the genesis of the idea.

bigbay

Jan. 29, 2004, 09:23 AM

Here's a link from 2002: AVMA website article (http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/apr02/s041502b.asp)

Does anyone know if this bill passed? I will try to follow up on it.

If you go to google and enter "interstate transport of horses for human consumption", a lot of interesting stuff pops up.

"The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor

bigbay

Jan. 29, 2004, 09:34 AM

From what I can tell, this is the latest incarnation of the federal bill: HR 857 (http://www.hoofpac.com/legislation/hr857/hr857.html)

There have been a few others that seem to have died, HR 3781 and Hr 2622. Does anyone know more about this? Who's our White House correspondent, dammit? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (Seriously though, don't we have a poster who works in Congress?)

Edited to add that Senator Dianne Feinstein from CA was supposed to be introducing an identical bill into the Senate, but I can't see if it ever got as far as being assigned an SB number.

"The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor

[This message was edited by bigbay on Jan. 29, 2004 at 01:00 PM.]

bigbay

Jan. 29, 2004, 10:30 AM

Okay, here's my final, informed and updated post on this topic. I did the research mostly because I'm bored and the legal aspect of this appeals to me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

For anyone who had a negative reaction to this thread: It is currently NOT illegal to slaughter horses for human consumption in the U.S. The basic fact though, is that it's not in our culture and we just don't really do it- but if you wanted to, you could (provided you don't live in CA, TX, or IL). We DO allow horses to be killed in the US and exported to cultures where horsemeat is eaten. There are currently only two active sluaghterhouses in the US. Both are foreign-owned, and both are located in Texas. Because of the attorney general of TX recently upholding a 1949 state law against the slaughter of horses, I believe and injunction has been issued, but there is a lawsuit pending.

Anway, the point is, it is currently not illegal to eat horses in the US. If you want it to be, there is a bill pending in Congress right now, titled HR 857. To read the text of the bill, go here. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query). The bill has been referred to committee, but new sponsors are still signing up, as recently as January 23. There are currently 165 co-sponsors. To see if your Representative is a sponsor, go here (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:HR00857:@@@P). If he/she is NOT, and you want them to be, write them a letter. Their contact information can be found here (http://www.house.gov/). If you don't want to write them or if they are already a sponsor but you still want to write a general letter of support, the original sponsors of the bill can be found here (http://www.hoofpac.com/legislation/hr857/hr857_alert.html).

If you just want to know more about the overall horse slaughter picture at both the state and national levels, or to educate yourself, good websites are http://www.hoofpac.com and http://equineprotectionnetwork.com/. To Supporters of horse slaughter, I apologize for not providing a balanced view, but I couldn't find any sites dedicated to supporting horse slaughter. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif There are dissenting articles however that will pop up if you do a Google search on the subject.

Interestingly enough, the National Thoroughbred Racing Association (NTRA), recently signed on as a supporter of HR 857.

"The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor

SaddleFitterVA

Jan. 29, 2004, 10:38 AM

I work in an average office, outside Washington DC.

At lunch today, I mentioned this subject and not a single person was grossed out at the idea of somebody ELSE eating horse.

None of them were volunteering, but they weren't grossed out by it. They don't own horses as pets...and they don't own cows as pets.

Just a bunch of non-horsey Americans. I think we had 8 or 9 of us in the room.

magnum

Jan. 29, 2004, 10:41 AM

Am I the only one who noticed that "Hey_ Marie," the author of this thread, has NOT been back? ... And, that this was "Marie's" ONE AND ONLY post on the CotH?

Looks like we've been duped by a troll, everyone.....

-------------------------
*The lesser half of a team who BEAT EPM!

Member of the Susie Ormond clique!*

bigbay

Jan. 29, 2004, 10:49 AM

The OP did sound trollish, but I thought horse_poor vouched for her. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I did notice that she hasn't been back though...

"The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor

horse_poor

Jan. 29, 2004, 11:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by magnum:
_Am I the only one who noticed that "Hey_ Marie," the author of this thread, has NOT been back? ... And, that this was "Marie's" ONE AND ONLY post on the CotH?

Looks like we've been duped by a troll, everyone..... _

-------------------------
*The lesser half of a team who BEAT EPM!

Member of the Susie Ormond clique!*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

marie is a very real person as i stated---

part of it could be-

1) our region is currently having an absolute artic blast right now and havent seen above zero temps much this week and like many of us has been battling a foot of snow, frozen water pipes, freezing water buckets etc------lucklily i have the luxery to work at home and can cruise COTH as much as i wish-others, especially those who provide boarding for others or have their horses at home or do not work in their home do not have that luxery

2) as a member of the other group marie belongs to, she does not post much there unless she is need of advise or has advise she feels can benefit someone else--

3) as being a new member of COTH, she might be a bit taken aback at the responses to her thread, as she is generally trying to get help to stop what this woman is intending to do. face it-we can all be somewhat intimidating to a new postee as we all feel passionately about our views

4) maybe she is simply reading the posts and taking from it what she can-she pretty much laid it on the line in her OP

someone does not have to have a gazillion posts to not be a troll. everyone differs in their poosting methods-some are very involved, some just post with as much info they can give about an issue and gather feedback silently

again-marie is not a troll-if she is, then her troll horse is wearing aeros old blanket http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

molly
*member of just about every clique*
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

Two Toofs

Jan. 29, 2004, 12:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by bigbay:

Interestingly enough, the National Thoroughbred Racing Association (NTRA), recently signed on as a supporter of HR 857<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The racing industry as a whole is actually at the forefront of pushing the federal legislation as well as the IL state legislation that is pending through to become law. The NTRA issued an official statement against the slaughter of horses quite some time ago.

The lobbiests of all the IL thoroughbred tracks are active in Springfield, trying to get the law passed. You can see lists of racing industry supporters here (http://www.illinoisleader.com/letters/lettersview.asp?c=11653), here, (http://saplonline.org/Legislation/ahspa/nhpcannounced.htm) and here. (http://www.bluehorsecharities.org/who-we-are.html)

And while it is not illegal to eat horsemeat in some states, many have laws outlawing the sale of it for human consumption in the US.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

hey_marie

Jan. 29, 2004, 12:51 PM

Thanks for the defense horse_poor. Have been busy with barn and "real" job. Can't support the boys on barn manager wages http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif. Will post from home this evening, after work and stop at the barn. Meanwhile the pagan religion of "Epona" has been cited by the horse owner.
Appreciate voices of reason. Good to get many viewpoints. Barn owner is on the verge of getting herself into trouble she does not need.
Got to go before I get busted. Marie

VTHokie

Jan. 29, 2004, 04:14 PM

I've never heard of Epona so I'm looking around on the web, and so far all I'm getting is that Epona was the goddess of horses and doesn't indicate that she should be eating them by any means...

Heres a quote from conjure.com

"Representations of Epona always have a horse present. She is most often shown sitting sideways on a mare, sometimes a suckling mare. Sometimes Epona is standing or sitting beside or between horses. She holds symbols of plenty like cornucopiae, patera full of grain and fruit. She sometimes is feeding her equine companions. She often appears with the Mother Goddesses in inscription and iconographically. There are even several finds where she herself is tripled and an inscription is dedicated to "the Eponas".
Statues of Epona have been found associated with healing springs. It is hard to know what significance this has. Many Celtic deities have a healing aspect. Perhaps she was invoked for healing of horses."
EDIT TO ADD...
"Among sacrificial animals we find horses, cattle, lambs, pigs, and dogs, also stags, hares, birds and wild pigs as well as other wild animals. Young animal often show signs of butchering, older cattle and horses mostly do not. Pig, either wild or domestic (its hard to tell!), is a favorite in both burial and temple deposition."

So maybe she's "sacrificing" the mare. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

-----------------------------

http://community.webshots.com/user/xpresssmom

[This message was edited by VTHokie on Jan. 29, 2004 at 07:39 PM.]

[This message was edited by VTHokie on Jan. 29, 2004 at 07:40 PM.]

lilblackhorse

Jan. 29, 2004, 04:28 PM

I saw this thread and hadn't answered--just finished reading all the pages now though.

I have to say that while it may be weird, and something that I can't fathom doing to my own horse, there is nothing wrong with eating a horse. Like someone mentioned, meat just doesn't appear at the grocery store shrinkwrapped from the sky.

Yes, it's an animal-I eat meat, I ride in a leather saddle, wear leather shoes, etc. I choose not to eat horse, but that's my choice. Other countries eat horse quite regularly-others eat dog. Much of this is custom.

I think many are appalled because we are horse people-folks here were disgusted by the horse leather aviator jacket. I say the horse is dead, and if he was put to death and is not in misery any more, then why NOT use all of the animal that you can?

It is NOT your horse to sell or hide or whatever people have said. It is her horse, her decision, regardless if you think it is wrong. Geez, people eat deer and all sorts of other animals--I have half a cow named "Howard" in my freezer. Lots of vegetarians would be disgusted by THAT....it's all in the way you look at it.

And about the burying thing? Just because someone told you you could do it, doesn't mean that they know the laws---burying a horse is a huge deal, and like Ghazzu said, can spread all manner of scary diseases into the groundwater. Just an fyi.

Elippses Users Clique........"I hate stall rest" and Grammar Nazi Cliques

"What the fuh?" Robby Johnson

horse_poor

Jan. 29, 2004, 04:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
And about the burying thing? Just because someone told you you could do it, doesn't mean that they know the laws---burying a horse is a huge deal, and like Ghazzu said, can spread all manner of scary diseases into the groundwater. Just an fyi.

_Elippses Users Clique........"I hate stall rest" and Grammar Nazi Cliques_

"What the fuh?" Robby Johnson

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

fyi-----the ok came from the county

also i know of an equine product company called epona-they make jelly curries and scrubby clothes and loads of other stuff-----would they name them self after a religion that eats horses?????

edited to add epona products website-i loff their Scrubby Bath Cloth
http://www.eponaproducts.com

molly
*member of just about every clique*
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

[This message was edited by horse_poor on Jan. 29, 2004 at 08:16 PM.]

bigbay

Jan. 29, 2004, 05:01 PM

I think she must just be part of a scary offshoot of that religion. There's a poster on the boards named Eponaroan, but she's involved with the ROAN horse rescue, so in her case, the Epona makes sense.

"The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor

magnum

Jan. 29, 2004, 05:36 PM

Ahem! I stand corrected. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Outside of the strange concept of eating your pets, what perhaps concerns me MORE is this woman's blatant disregard for OTHERS who do love horses. Can anyone possibly be so clueless that they don't realize their own societal norms?

Or, that they could cause a good deal of pain and upset by speaking about this in front of others who love their horses?

Does she just REALLY need attention and this is her way to get it? Or, perhaps does she want money, sympathy, etc? Is she just trying to get a rise out of others?

I know I just sound suspicious now, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif but I truly am having trouble buying that what she says is face value... I am perhaps naive in thinking no body could be that stupid and callous around other horse lovers, not to mention her own apathy towards her horse.

-------------------------
*The lesser half of a team who BEAT EPM!

Member of the Susie Ormond clique!*

nightsong

Jan. 29, 2004, 06:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by horse_poor:

also i know of an equine product company called epona-they make jelly curries and scrubby clothes and loads of other stuff-----would they name them self after a religion that eats horses?????

edited to add epona products website-i loff their Scrubby Bath Cloth
http://www.eponaproducts.com

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think any place that sells lavender liniment would have ANYTHING to do with horse slaughter.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Love is all there is

horse_poor

Jan. 29, 2004, 06:12 PM

"I don't think any place that sells lavender liniment would have ANYTHING to do with horse slaughter"

my thoughts exactly, which is why i qestion this woman siting her epona religion as her motivation

molly
*member of just about every clique*
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

Scootie

Jan. 29, 2004, 06:31 PM

I was trying to stay out of this but...

First of all, the lady has a right to eat her own horse. Personally I could never do that, but I have to recognize this as a personal preference based at least partly on my cultural background. She also has a right to practice whatever religion she subscribes to even if it seems strange to a lot of us. In fact, in many belief systems, it is considered an honor for the animal to be sacrificed and it can be done in a humane way. Whether any of this is legal or not probably depends on her locality.

No, I am not a horse eater nor a horse sacrificer, nor do I intend to be. The fact remains that there are those who believe in these practices (at least the eating).

We're talking about a horse with an absentee owner who arrived at the barn six months ago. The woman apparently has not had much contact with it at least since it has been at that barn. So it might be a stretch to try to ascertain what kind of relationship she has with it.

But the only part that gets me weirded out was the fact that she told the barn manager of her intentions for her horse. It would have been much nicer if she had stated she intended to move the horse at the end of the month and arranged for more feed to "make it comfortable" and simply left it at that. So she does sound like she might have a few screws loose, but no one knows that for sure either.

Please don't feel like I'm flaming anybody but I wonder about one thing. How did the KIDS who work at the barn come to know of this woman's plans. Of course the lady's general lack of discretion could be to blame, but otherwise they really don't have a need to know, IMHO.

Don't get me wrong. I am NO believer in protecting children from the harsh realities of life as they occur. But given the circumstances, this may be a little TOO much.

Sorry you are having to deal with such an unpleasant situation though. It sucks.

Founder and president of the No-Legged Rider Clique

LEP Enterprises, LLC

Jan. 29, 2004, 06:35 PM

/agree with Scootie

Disgusting, yes

Your business, no

________________________
*London*Hannah*Kirsche*
*Gryphon Bay & foal on the WAY!!!*

poltroon

Jan. 29, 2004, 06:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by magnum:
I am perhaps naive in thinking no body could be that stupid and callous around other horse lovers, not to mention her own apathy towards her horse.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It certainly does express a level of cluelessness, that she didn't realize people would be upset. But apathy - no. She's going to some trouble to do what she proposes, trouble that will certainly cost more than the value of the meat. It is clear to me that she's either an ultra-recycler or she feels eating her horse will give her a spiritual bond with it.

Apathetic owners leave their horses in stalls for months without visiting, then one day say, "Hey, I'm not paying board any more. Send the horse to the local weekly auction."

I certainly consider her proposal odd (though I admit I have heard of [odd] people doing this before), but "apathy" is the wrong word. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

OLD A/O

Jan. 29, 2004, 06:42 PM

Okay, I can understand someone eating their horse better than a Celtic religious sacrifice. So I guess I have been TROLLED!!!

However, if not TROLLED are their any laws against killing animals( any type) for a religious purpose?

vxf111

Jan. 29, 2004, 06:49 PM

The pieces don't add up. Two possible justifications for this behavior have been raised: (1) the owner wants simply "not to waste" the mare after euthanization and is thus going to eat her and (2) the owner has religious beliefs dictating that the horse "become one with her" through being eaten. Fine. But these twoimpulses are not exactly in line with asking the barn help to feed the horse extra grain in the last month to fatten her up.

Additionally, this isn't a woman deciding to euthanize an older horse who is in pain. That I am sure we can all agree with. The poster says the horse gets around fine and is doing okay, albeit a little creaky. While an owner could certainly put an older horse down for quality of life reasons (wouldn't question that decision either)-- such a caring owner would NOT start fattening the mare up first.

The fattenning up is yet another twist on this entire bizarre thing. That's just plain WEIRD.

~Veronica

"The Son Dee Times"
"Sustained"

Ghazzu

Jan. 29, 2004, 07:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by horse_poor:
[QUOTE]
And about the burying thing? Just because someone told you you could do it, doesn't mean that they know the laws---burying a horse is a huge deal, and like Ghazzu said, can spread all manner of scary diseases into the groundwater. Just an fyi.

_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, I just said anthrax was a bacterial disease, not a viral one.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

horse_poor

Jan. 29, 2004, 07:19 PM

"Don't get me wrong. I am NO believer in protecting children from the harsh realities of life as they occur. But given the circumstances, this may be a little TOO much.
"

ever hear the saying "little pitchers have big ears?"

kids arent dumb-they pick up a lot more than we give them credit for

i am sure marie didnt say "hey kids so and so is going to eat her horse"

but i am sure they pickedup maries stress, heard tidbits of conversations, and added it up. my own kids are the master of this.

i agree, to each their own, but imagine being the barn manager, caring for this horse knowing what its fate is going to be, and know you cant do squat-----

it has to be distressing to say the least, especially having daily interaction with the horse, etc

i get pi$$ed at my barn when i see a horse woner not doing their horse service by leaving it up to the barn to manage all of its handling etc and having no interaction with the horse yet when approached to buy said horse, spout of declaration of love about said horse and never being able to part with it-----but knowing said horse would be a meal would send me over the edge

i just think it is interesting that those say "hey its ok-she can do what she wants" from standing waaaaaaaay over there...

i myself forget to put myself in ones shoes sometimes.....

molly
*member of just about every clique*
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

hey_marie

Jan. 29, 2004, 08:50 PM

This is an instance where I would have preferred to have been lied to. Why did she need to tell us this? She is a rather callous person, she likes to bring it up, and seems to delight in knowing how much distress she is causing. She has come up with a figure, $20,000.00, if we really want to "save" the horse. This feels like extortion.
I looked around for things on Epona too, and in the hundred or so sites that I looked at, I did find 2 references to sacrificing and/or eating horses.
It is her horse, and I wouldn't want someone telling me what I can and can't do with my horses (as long as it's not abusive of course) but I think it is quite unfair of her to involve us knowing how upsetting it would be for us. She was there a couple of times and knows very well how we feel about our horses.
I'll be at work with the horses all day tomorrow, freezing my butt off, in case anyone wonders why I am not commenting again http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Marie

Coreene

Jan. 29, 2004, 09:48 PM

Marie, hang in there! So sorry that this is happening.

horse_poor

Jan. 29, 2004, 09:51 PM

marie hun ya know where i am------

sending ya good thoughts and i hope aeros old royal robes are still keeping your boy warm!

molly
*member of just about every clique*
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

Two Toofs

Jan. 30, 2004, 03:26 AM

horse_poor

Jan. 30, 2004, 06:32 AM

i thought the same ting as two toofs--i would ask her to leave immediately considering the circumstances

molly
*member of just about every clique*
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

Scootie

Jan. 30, 2004, 08:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by OLD A/O:
Okay, I can understand someone eating their horse better than a Celtic religious sacrifice. So I guess I have been TROLLED!!!

However, if not TROLLED are their any laws against killing animals( any type) for a religious purpose?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be in violation of the principle of separation of church and state. A principle that IMO, needs to be upheld.

Founder and president of the No-Legged Rider Clique

Scootie

Jan. 30, 2004, 08:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by horse_poor:
"Don't get me wrong. I am NO believer in protecting children from the harsh realities of life as they occur. But given the circumstances, this may be a little TOO much.
"

ever hear the saying "little pitchers have big ears?"

kids arent dumb-they pick up a lot more than we give them credit for

i am sure marie didnt say "hey kids so and so is going to eat her horse"

but i am sure they pickedup maries stress, heard tidbits of conversations, and added it up. my own kids are the master of this.

i agree, to each their own, but imagine being the barn manager, caring for this horse knowing what its fate is going to be, and know you cant do squat-----

it has to be distressing to say the least, especially having daily interaction with the horse, etc

i get pi$$ed at my barn when i see a horse woner not doing their horse service by leaving it up to the barn to manage all of its handling etc and having no interaction with the horse yet when approached to buy said horse, spout of declaration of love about said horse and never being able to part with it-----but knowing said horse would be a meal would send me over the edge

i just think it is interesting that those say "hey its ok-she can do what she wants" from standing waaaaaaaay over there...

i myself forget to put myself in ones shoes sometimes.....

molly
*member of just about every clique*
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually assumed this to be the case, but thought it was an important issue. What a terrible experience for those involved.

Its still the lady's horse, but it would have been better if she had been discreet about such potentially upsetting plans.

Founder and president of the No-Legged Rider Clique

Scootie

Jan. 30, 2004, 08:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by hey_marie:
This is an instance where I would have preferred to have been lied to. Why did she need to tell us this? She is a rather callous person, she likes to bring it up, and seems to delight in knowing how much distress she is causing. She has come up with a figure, $20,000.00, if we really want to "save" the horse. This feels like extortion.
I looked around for things on Epona too, and in the hundred or so sites that I looked at, I did find 2 references to sacrificing and/or eating horses.
It is her horse, and I wouldn't want someone telling me what I can and can't do with my horses (as long as it's not abusive of course) but I think it is quite unfair of her to involve us knowing how upsetting it would be for us. She was there a couple of times and knows very well how we feel about our horses.
I'll be at work with the horses all day tomorrow, freezing my butt off, in case anyone wonders why I am not commenting again http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Marie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ewwww...

I do think that person's elevator is not quite making it to the top floor. Or maybe it is because I believe that a truly spiritual person practices their beliefs in the way they see fit without using them to frighten or upset "nonbelivers".

I'm sorry you have to go through this. It puts you in a kind of bind because you have been forced to participate in something you do not wish to condone or promote. At the same time, simply evicting the boarder and putting the horse out only increases your worries about the comfort and well-being of this mare.

I'm sorry, that woman sounds like a real creep. Certainly she knows that in this society eating of horseflesh is generally considered repugnant and may be upsetting. She did not just roll out from under a rock yesterday. In this case there seems to be no excuse for her not to have the decency to keep her plans to herself.

I wish I had some advice on how to best deal with the situation, but it has totally blown me away too.

Founder and president of the No-Legged Rider Clique

Heather

Jan. 30, 2004, 09:22 AM

No legitimate modern pagan religion would ever condone the sacrifice of an animal as part of ritual. Epona is considered the PROTECTOR of horses, not their devourer--a person wha has truly studied this Celtic goddess would have to pretty wacked out to come up with that interpretation.

Ancient pagan practitioners DID sacrifice animals as part of their religion, however there was a social welfare aspect to that as well--because the meat of scrificed animals was shared among the entire village or community, offering a valuable protien hit for an agrarain community that was often just a few meals away from starvation. Modern pagans would never consider such an action--sane ones anyway.

While I find this woman's desire to eat her horse disturbing, her maligning and co-opting of pagan beliefs as part of her plan is more disturbing to me. Her lunatic interpretation of Celtic beliefs and practices and her "price tag" of $20,000 as well as her apparent delight in antagonizing others, makes me thing she may in fact be mentally unstable.

Alagirl

Jan. 30, 2004, 01:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> She is a rather callous person, she likes to bring it up, and seems to delight in knowing how much distress she is causing. She has come up with a figure, $20,000.00, if we really want to "save" the horse. This feels like extortion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aaaahhhhhhh....
The cat is out of the bag...
Maybe with a little bargening, she thinks she can get maybe 2 grant out of it or there's about...worth much more than the hide and bones...

Sorry for all of the people at the barn...consier it a bad joke, go *Hmm* *Aha*, nodd and walk away...

Talk Spotted Dogs
http://pub31.ezboard.com/fdalmatianplantationmessageboardfrm1

Kathy Johnson

Jan. 31, 2004, 06:51 AM

Quick....I feel psychic vibes coming on from the mare. I think her left front is bothering her. Does the barn owner have permission to treat injuries in the absence of the owner? I feel the mare needs a daily course of bute for 7 days. And, I think she is due for worming.

You have a zealot in your barn. She is foisting her religious beliefs on her animal, which ALWAYS makes me very, very angry. Horses do not eat human meat to become one with us when we die. Religious freedom, be damned--this is cult practice. Get the wacko out of your barn right now. You have children and horses to protect.

Have the sheriff there when you do it. See if she likes that kind of attention. (PS I am serious about the sheriff. Tell them that she has made strange threats and that you feel she may have mental issues that will cause her to become unhinged when you ask her to leave. Tell them you want protection because you are frightened of her. I am. That is extortion, and you are dealing with an unstable and perhaps criminal mind.)

Kathy Johnson (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[This message was edited by Kathy Johnson on Jan. 31, 2004 at 10:33 AM.]

hey_marie

Jan. 31, 2004, 11:55 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kathy Johnson:
Quick....I feel psychic vibes coming on from the mare. I think her left front is bothering her. Does the barn owner have permission to treat injuries in the absence of the owner? I feel the mare needs a daily course of bute for 7 days. And, I think she is due for worming.

We have had her on Bute on a regular basis for arthritis in her knee, per the owners instructions.

bigbay

Jan. 31, 2004, 12:25 PM

Perfect. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Now dig up literature from the USDA on why they won't allow the use of Bute in animals intended for food, and mention it to her next time! If she really is in it for extortion and shock value, this may take the wind out of her sails.

Edited to add this paragraph from Two Toofs' post on page 2:

"DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

Food and Drug Administration

21 CFR Part 530

[Docket No. 03N-0024]

New Animal Drugs; Phenylbutazone; Extralabel Animal Drug Use;
Order of Prohibition

AGENCY: Food and Drug Administration, HHS.

ACTION: Final rule.

II. Phenylbutazone

Phenylbutazone became available for use in humans for the treatment
of rheumatoid arthritis and gout in 1949 (Ref. 1), but is no longer
approved, and thus not marketed, for any human use in the United
States. This is because some patients treated with phenylbutazone have
experienced severe toxic reactions, and other effective, less toxic
drugs are available to treat the same conditions (Refs. 1 and 2).
Phenylbutazone is known for its ulcerogenic, nephrotoxic, and
hemotoxic effects in horses, dogs, rats, and humans (Refs. 2, 4, 5, 6,
7, and 8). It is known to induce blood dyscrasias, including aplastic
anemia, leukopenia, agranulocytosis, thrombocytopenia, and deaths
(Refs. 7 and 8). The reported adverse reactions were associated with
the human clinical use of 200 to 800 milligrams phenylbutazone per day
(Refs. 7 and 8). Hypersensitivity reactions of the serum-sickness type
have also been reported in patients with phenylbutazone. The threshold
for this effect has not been defined. Therefore, it is unclear what
level of exposure would be required to trigger such reactions in
sensitive people. Moreover, phenylbutazone is a carcinogen, as
determined by the National Toxicology Program (NTP) based on positive
results in genotoxicity tests and some evidence of carcinogenicity seen
in the rat and mouse in carcinogenicity bioassays NTP conducted (Ref.
3).
For animals, phenylbutazone is currently approved only for oral and
injectable use in dogs and horses. Use in horses is limited to use in
horses not intended for food. There are currently no approved uses of
phenylbutazone in food-producing animals."

"The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor

hey_marie

Jan. 31, 2004, 12:52 PM

Here's some more of the story. The farm owner has been embroiled in legal battles of her own for the past 3 years, with an ex-fiance, ex-business partner, con-man, who tied up her breeding business, ruined her credit, and wreaked havoc on her life. There is still a possibility that she could lose the farm, if he is able to continue to drag this out much longer. She has 30 horses including a stallion and 2 pregnant mares. There is nowhere for her to go with all these horses should something happen with the farm.
She has now gotten word back from her lawyer that he can find nothing illegal in the state of Wisconsin in what the woman is planning. The woman says the horse will be humanely killed. From what I know of this woman, if we tried to do anything outside the boundaries of the law, there would be retribution....big time. She seems to be well-versed in the law. We are barely hanging on right now, and we can't afford to do something that could jeopardize our situation any further, we have 30 horses that need us. It's probably much easier to be radical when your survival, and the survival of your entire horse herd is not on the line.
Also if we did try something we would be branded as "anti-slaughter radicals" that are trying to take away peoples rights to do what they want with their horses. The pro-slaughter people would love it, "taking away rights" is a big issue for them.(pointed out by someone here)
This woman is also boarding her stallion with us, and before you say "kick him out"....he is for sale, and if she leaves him with us we will do everything in our power to help get him sold, and out of her hands. If we can't help the mare, maybe we can help her son.
We don't have a legal leg to stand on, we tried to buy her, but the $20,000.00 figure she has come up with is not only way out of line, but way beyond our means, and I don't think that I want to deal with an extortionist anyway. Someone is supposed to be coming for the mare today. I will make a standing offer to buy the mare if she should change her mind.
(I kind of like cranky old lady mares) I don't think she will. I think she will go through with it as much to distress us, as for whatever the original reasons were.
This has been a really bad month. I want to thank everyone who has responded to this issue, whatever your point of view. I think that it really helped us work through it, and not get ourselves into a huge mess.
Marie
I will let you know as much of what happens as I know, especially if it's a good outcome, say she realizes that the extortion didn't work and agrees to sell her for a realistic price.

[This message was edited by hey_marie on Jan. 31, 2004 at 04:01 PM.]

hey_marie

Jan. 31, 2004, 12:55 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bigbay:
Perfect. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Now dig up literature from the USDA on why they won't allow the use of Bute in animals intended for food, and mention it to her next time! If she really is in it for extortion and shock value, this may take the wind out of her sails.

She has a B.S. in Animal Science, you'd think she should know that already.

hey_marie

Jan. 31, 2004, 01:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by hey_marie:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bigbay:
Perfect. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Now dig up literature from the USDA on why they won't allow the use of Bute in animals intended for food, and mention it to her next time! If she really is in it for extortion and shock value, this may take the wind out of her sails.

She has a B.S. in Animal Science, you'd think she should know that already.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Makes you wonder even more about her intentions.

bigbay

Jan. 31, 2004, 01:47 PM

Also, point out that there is no way for her to "humanely" kill the animal and then have it be safe to eat. The drugs used for lethal injection certianly aren't safe for humans. This is why horses at slaughterhouses are "bolted" or clubbed. Not humane, IMO. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

"The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor

paw

Jan. 31, 2004, 08:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by bigbay:
Also, point out that there is no way for her to "humanely" kill the animal and then have it be safe to eat. The drugs used for lethal injection certianly aren't safe for humans. This is why horses at slaughterhouses are "bolted" or clubbed. Not humane, IMO. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry - "bolting", done *properly*, while not pretty, is instantaneous. How much more humane can it be? Now the bit _before_ the killing (long travel cooped up, milling around, being driven into the pens) may not be particularly humane, but the killing itself can be.

paw

Jan. 31, 2004, 08:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Heather:
No legitimate modern pagan religion would ever condone the sacrifice of an animal as part of ritual.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pardon? Is there some definition of "pagan" I don't know? Or is there some "legitimizing" agency for pagan religions?

Just because many don't doesn't mean that _all_ don't.

Sephen

Jan. 31, 2004, 10:42 PM

Um.. Who says it's paganism, anyway? Other religions have taken part in sacrifice as part of their history, like paganism, but MOST of it was phased out before reaching North America - in any religion. The only exception I can think of may be satanism.

"If consequences dictate my course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right -it's only wrong if you get caught." - Tool

Two Toofs

Feb. 1, 2004, 03:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by paw:

Sorry - "bolting", done *properly*, while not pretty, is instantaneous. How much more humane can it be? Now the bit _before_ the killing (long travel cooped up, milling around, being driven into the pens) may not be particularly humane, but the killing itself can be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not when horses are slaughtered in the US. Unfortunately, they don't follow the guidelines for captive bolt use. They do not restrain the head, as is required by AMVA guidelines.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Heather

Feb. 1, 2004, 08:43 AM

There are wackos in any religion--Christian, Muslim, pagan, you name it.

Just as you would say no legitimate Christian would choose to bomb the Oklahoma Federal bulding, no legitimate pagan would choose to scarifice and eat their horse.

This woman is NOT standing on her religious views anymore than David Koresh or the Jonestown people were--the visions of a deluded mind do not a relgiion make.

This woman is more than likely a mnaipulative person who is trying to hit hot buttons (and easy ones at that--look at the reponses here--she says pagan, and every single poster since, went, oh, ok, that must be true and what they do) for financial gain. However, she may also be truly mentally unstable, just like the guy on the corner who says God tells him to run around naked and spit on people.

But please, don't for a minute think that the vast, vast majority of people who follow an alternative faith find this acceptable, understandble, or anything representing their faith.

This woman is a monster, plain and simple.

Alagirl

Feb. 1, 2004, 05:31 PM

Hei_marie,
As I read the holw story aout the situation at your barn, could it be - by any chance - that the Horse owner sites with BO's ex, stiring up trouble, just for the heck of it, sitting back and having a good laugh at your expense?

To many things do just not add up the other way around.

And if it is, You and your boss have my sympathese, because all you can do is shrug your shoulders and let the things go...

I bet you, if anybody at the barn pulled any stunts, the Ex would know it before anybody ever left the barn!

The whole deals smells like some rotten fish!
And as much as it may break your heart, repeat after me: You can't save them all; the rescue peoples sanity mantra.

My best wishes!

Talk Spotted Dogs
http://pub31.ezboard.com/fdalmatianplantationmessageboardfrm1

Policy of Truth

Feb. 1, 2004, 09:54 PM

Give a call to your local mental health office, and tell them what you're telling us. I may be wrong, but she sounds like she may need some mental health services.

And just on the subject of her desire to not only "sacrafice" her horse, but to torment other horse owners makes me think this woman has some other things going on. I had a friend onece who claimed to be Pagan....she said Pagans have a rule "first do no harm"...if this is true, then she's breaking her own "rules" by upsetting the other horse owners. Her lack of logic in this suggests it has nothing to do with a ritual, but more of a mental instability.

Please at least give everyone a chance at sanity by contacting your local mental health department. If the area you live in has a somewhat decent tax-base, they should send "Crisis" out to at least investigate. I know when I worked in Richmond in both the private and public sector, they would have at least sent someone to interview her as well as the people who had heard of her plan. It may be that they can't DO anything, but it could.

CoconutGrrl

Feb. 1, 2004, 11:15 PM

. I am with Pacificsolo....

I've been thinking all along that this woman sounds ... non compos mentos. The religion and extortion bit seem to confirm that.

What about contacting this woman's family?

As much as I hate to say it (God, I feel so terrible for you in this situation), we can't save every horse. If you are out of options, I'd just kick this woman and her horses out of the facility, immediately. Tell her she has 24 hours to remove them or such. It might be enough of a shock to make her rethink her plans.

Flashy Gray

Feb. 2, 2004, 08:43 AM

heymarie - any update?

I am not a lawyer but I can't believe you can't try to stop this wacko via some infraction of public health rules.

Glad you are consulting a lawyer, and I hope your weekend dealing with this situation wasn't too stressful.

magnum

Feb. 2, 2004, 12:02 PM

DING DING DING! Alagirl gets the prize. ...

I agree 100%, this woman is a plant by the deviant Ex.

Can you think of anything more torturous for an ex to do to his horsey Ex than plant someone in her barn (smack in the center of her livelihood) with stories of horse-eating (with the intent of driving off his Ex's good clients / income in the process?).

Firstly, spend $100 for a simple profile by a P.I. on the alleged owner's background. If she can be linked up with the notoriuos Ex, his butt is gonna get toasted in court for attempting to sabotage his Ex's source of income.

Assuming she said what stable from wence she came, FOLLOW UP and do a CHECK to see if this is accurate, and if they got the same stories, and how long she was there, how long she SAID she has had this horse, etc.

POST HASTE -- Get rid of the b!tch. Then, HIS days of taunting his Ex thru her, at least within this issue, are OVERT.

Finally, get - ahem -- a wee bit smarter with background checks on anyone wanting to board there.

-------------------------
*The lesser half of a team who BEAT EPM!

Member of the Susie Ormond clique!*

hey_marie

Feb. 3, 2004, 07:41 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pacificsolo:
Give a call to your local mental health office, and tell them what you're telling us. I may be wrong, but she sounds like she may need some mental health services.

She's in Mass. we're in Wisconsin

hey_marie

Feb. 3, 2004, 08:21 PM

Update. They didn't pick the horse up this weekend, said they never told us they were going to. They did, me in person and farm owner by email. Now she's saying the middle of the month. Had her husband sneak in with feed and the board check when no-one was around. She had one of her friends (she's very nice and seems to care about the horses, used to work the stallion until she got tired of being taken advantage of) come by to check on the horses and I told her the mare had a snotty nose. She did, honest, white yucky stuff. So now the mare owner says we may have to give her medication which will delay "the procedure" even longer. Maybe the vet can prescribe something that would taint the meat forever.
The theory about her being connected with the barn owner's ex is quite interesting, and bears some investigating, but I think she's just wacko all on her own. Maybe once she figures out that we're not going to throw a bunch of money at her, she'll give up her plan. I just really don't know where she's coming from on this, if it's money, or it's entertaining for her to torture people or what. She's not even around to see it, she's in Boston.
We don't want to throw the horses out in the middle of winter and as long as they are on our farm, we can hope that she'll screw up somewhere along the line, and maybe we'll have something legal we can do. Even if she goes through with this, we really want to try to get the stallion sold, to get him out of her hands.
And the humane society, and the lawyer are quite sure that there is nothing we can legally do at this point.
Still hopeful, Marie