PDA

View Full Version : Dogs?



gardenofsimple22
Jul. 11, 2010, 04:19 PM
Hi everyone... I'd appreciate some help here. \

My fiancé and I have decided to try to find a smaller ( under 20 lbs as an adult?) but sturdy dog that I can take to the barn, horse shows and the like. We currently have three pit bulls and while they are angels at home... I can't take them out in public. They are all well behaved, but are 'funny' with strangers in their face so we avoid putting them in uncomfortable situations which is best for all involved. Anyway- i DO want a dog that I can take out as I enjoy animal companionship far better than that of people.

I know all the typical 'barn dog' breeds ( corgi's , JRT , Springers and the like) I am very interested in Dachshunds , Toy Fox Terriers and Poodles but worry that they are not 'sturdy' enough.

So please, share with me your experiences or opinions on smaller, sturdy and rough and tumble dogs. I don't care about grooming requirements as I used to be a groomer. . . so I'll just do it.

And while I applaud those of you who rescue and rehab other dogs we're in agreement that this time we'd like to stick to a dog from a breeder. Nothing against rescues, but we want to have the option to find a show quality dog if possible. I've rescued for the last 15 years and it's time to take a break.

Riley0522
Jul. 11, 2010, 06:36 PM
Fellow Pit Bull owner here (have 3 myself; 1 purebred and 2 mixes..all rescues) and am in a similar situation...love them all to death but they are not dogs I can just bring to the barn and let them go while I ride. So nice to hear about people who love them for what they are and realize their limitations and that it doesn't make them a "bad" dog.

Anyways, I'm not looking to add another dog at this point, but we've thought about it and really would like either a small mutt or a JRT at some point in the future. My farrier has an Irish JRT who is awesome, most obedient, impeccably trained dog I've ever met. The dog does tend to wander off, but he always comes back and he's very horse smart.

I'm not a big fan of toy poodles, but my boyfriend's family has one and she is a great horse show dog...just not my type of dog in general...too hairy, too much maintenance grooming wise, really yippy/barky...but pretty smart and you can take her anywhere. She was actually given to them by another rider when they couldn't keep her anymore, and she would go to about 6-7 away horse shows a year and loved every minute of it.

Have fun finding another pup!

Aven
Jul. 11, 2010, 06:56 PM
The right dog in any of those breeds will work well. Personally I am really enjoying my long haired whippet. She is under 20 pounds and a great out and about dog. Regular whippets would be the same, I just like the hair so they don't look so nekkid lol.

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd125/Grey-Run/_IGP9489.jpg

I have a friend who comes and stays with her american cocker. He is a delightful right around 20 pound dog. Can be a little oblivious about the horses but another great dog to take out and about.

ETA adding a JRT is like adding another APBT some are great with other dogs, some are not. Dog aggression is an issue there. Though if you get the 'irish jacks' you might be fine as they have watered down the dogs to the point they aren't 'really' JRTs anymore.

Equino
Jul. 11, 2010, 07:08 PM
How will your bigger pits be with a new, smaller dog in the house?

My parents bred Boxers, and I wanted a smaller, herding group dog to take to the barn. I looked at Heelers, Cattle Dogs and tried to find a very small Aussies (I stayed away from minis, but a reputable breeder might have some nice ones). Before I decided against a Terrier, I looked into Boarder Terriers, Smooth Hair Fox Terriers (I had wanted a JRT, but known a few who have killed cats and chickens, plus they can be quite snippy). I finally went with a Sheltie. He is 22lbs, 15 inches tall. It's great because he can have a "job" at the barn, keeps busy herding things, and I also compete in Agility. My parents ended up with two themselves, a little more yappy than mine (I think mine is the quietest Sheltie ever!) Sometimes the Boxers get annoyed with the barking and herding games, and snap at, roll one over, which can be scary since they are so small and so non-aggressive, but nothing serious has ever happened.

I've had friends ask what breed they should get. I think as an owner, you have to decide what traits are most appealing and try to pick a breed accordingly. I have one friend who has the sweetest Pit I've ever met, and goes to the barn every day, no problems with people, horses, dogs, cats, easy to be around. But I think that is the exception, not norm. Training and environmental influences go a long way, but a breed has certain traits you can't control. I never brought the Boxers to the barn-they can be territorial with other dogs, and tend to wander when bored. Yet, my Sheltie and Aussie are what herding dogs should be-wary of strangers, but all that means is bark, and perfectly content to stay around the barn/lifestock. I think it's unfair when owners try to conform their dogs to their own lifestyle, so kudos to both of you for being realistic and fair to your dogs, and those you may cross paths with.

MelanieC
Jul. 11, 2010, 09:28 PM
Under 20 pounds + sturdy can be a tough one. You didn't mention if you were considering toy dogs (OK, you did mention the poodles) but of all the toy breeds, Papillons are far and away my favorite. In fact, I used to have one who would have been a PERFECT horse event dog but I had to rehome him because he hated one of the Border Collies so much that he kept attempting to commit suicide by attacking the Border Collie. I'm not into keeping dogs separated all the time, so Skeeter the Yapillon lives with someone else now and everyone (including new owner) is much, much happier. (I did just call him a Yapillon -- do not get a Pap unless you can handle barking.)

I would hesitate to add another bully on top of three pit bulls, in case of altercations, but my current "other-breed" obsession (i.e., not a Border Collie -- I have three) is miniature Bull Terriers. They can be hard to find, but they fit your criteria of small and sturdy and I LOVE their egg-shaped heads. A nice Staffordshire Bull Terrier ("Staffy Bull") would suit also for the same reasons, except for the egg-shaped head.

I would also recommend a Border Terrier -- actually, that sounds tailor-made for your situation -- except that I would hesitate to add a terrier to a pack of pitties. I love pits, but I think multi-terrier or bully/terrier situations can be difficult unless all the individual dogs involved are somewhat unusual.

Shelties are another good suggestion. You need to determine if you like the herding breed types of personalities, but if you do they definitely fit into your size criteria. The warning about barking also applies to Shelties as they are known to be quite vocal. Actually, most of the Shelties I have known, and this is in the context of dog sports like agility and flyball, were debarked for that reason. Debarking consists of nicking the vocal cords so that the dog no longer produces a yap, but instead something that sounds like a hoarse cough. That way they could bark all they wanted but no one minded. I wouldn't do it to a dog, but I will never again own a committed yapper so the point is moot.

I used to compete in sheepdog trials with my Border Collies, and nearly every handler, no matter how many working dogs s/he had, seemed to have one small auxiliary dog as well. The most popular breeds seem to be JRTs and Chihuahuas, with a scattering of mini Dachshunds.

IFG
Jul. 11, 2010, 09:31 PM
Over 20 pounds, but Standard Poodles are awesome. Very smart and do require training, but really fun dogs.

bcody
Jul. 11, 2010, 09:47 PM
Over 20 pounds, but Standard Poodles are awesome. Very smart and do require training, but really fun dogs.

I agree, I love my standard and he an go anywhere, always good, smart and a blast to have around. Just a little over the weight you wanted!

IFG
Jul. 11, 2010, 09:54 PM
Forgot to add, my profile pic is my SP as a puppy playing with his corgi friend.

lcw579
Jul. 11, 2010, 09:59 PM
Joining the Standard Poodle chorus! Best. Dogs. Ever. (although I do love my rescue mutt)

I wouldn't get a mini poodle though. They have a different personality and I think finding a good one is hard.

Rescue Mutt has dachsund in him (we think) and is a great dog. Dachsunds can be nippy though. They also hate to go out in the rain.

What about a cairn terrier? My sister just got one and she's a tough little dog and cute as can be.

ETA: Love the picture IFG! My poodle had a good corgi friend as a puppy and loves them all to this day.

gardenofsimple22
Jul. 11, 2010, 10:51 PM
I love all the reccomendations, please keep them coming!


I had thought standard poo as well... but it's a LOT bigger than we wanted to go. Carins were discussed ( well, my childhood dog- Norwich terriers were) but they are STARTING at 3500 on most websites ( and those are the puppy mill sites-not the place i was planning on actually getting one from- i emailed a few breeders and EGADS!)

Pitties will accept another dog into the house granted its a puppy and its NOT a female . the only real issue is My bug because, well shes a freak. She just is VERY drivey and doesnt back down. Yes, i socialized her to death from 8-16 weeks. but she just doesnt like other dogs in her face. and i respect that.

Is the mini bull the same as the American French Bull Terrier ( aka French bulldogs/Pit bull mix).


I spoke to a Doxie ( ok can't spell the other , true name) breeder today as well. she was all for the pitties and had handled some am staffs in the past but when i said my girl was drivey and if something growls in her face scruff goes up and she growls right back- she said not the breed for us. Apparently they are "dont back down" dogs as well. NOT the compliment for a pitty.

Twiliath
Jul. 11, 2010, 10:56 PM
That's "Cairn".

How about a Portuguese Podengo? They come in three sizes - small, medium, and large.

mustangtrailrider
Jul. 12, 2010, 12:23 AM
I wanted to add my two cents with my Doxies and my pitt. They get along and even play together. All three of them....1 pitt, 2 doxies. Very good friends. With the right dog, it is possible. It just has to be the right match.

I really like my mini female, long haired doxie. Very smart and savvy around other dogs and horses. She plays with the pitt. We don't leave them alone unsupervised. I just won't do it even though they are fine. We do leave them in the house for a couple of hours after everyone has had a long walk. No worries here. But usually, they are separated.

I vote for Doxies. My absolute favorite farm dog. My male does have a strong hunt drive. We can't let him off leash. He will take off. We got him as a 3 yo. Oh well....the only one that has to be on a leash.

Have fun shopping.

GraceLikeRain
Jul. 12, 2010, 12:36 AM
Honestly, no reputable breeder is going to sell you a dog once they hear that you own an aggressive dog and that your current three dogs are confined to the home. A good breeder wants to place their puppies in a home with other well-socialized dogs. What is the quality of life for your dogs if they never get to go out in public?


All it takes is one snap from your pits jaws and she could permenantly damage a puppy (if she doesn't kill it) and result in thousands of dollars of medical bills. I work in a vets office and 2-3 times we have received a mangled puppy because someone brought a puppy into a household with a touchy alpha dog who had a large personal bubble.


Is it fair to bring a puppy into your household with a dog who "just is VERY drivey and doesnt back down ... she just doesnt like other dogs in her face."

A puppy doesn't always know to back down.

Do you have a way of rehoming a puppy if your female decides that she is an unwelcome vistor? Do you have the time to socialize a puppy (8 weeks of socialization is not sufficient)?



A barn dog is made, not born.

gardenofsimple22
Jul. 12, 2010, 01:28 AM
Honestly, no reputable breeder is going to sell you a dog once they hear that you own an aggressive dog and that your current three dogs are confined to the home. A good breeder wants to place their puppies in a home with other well-socialized dogs. What is the quality of life for your dogs if they never get to go out in public?

.

Ok. I knew it was coming.

My dogs have better lives than a good deal of the dogs I know. I live in a Rural farm community in Georgia. Dogs are livestock for many. many. families around here. your dog gets hit by a car? shoot it. your dog is aggressive ? shoot it. my "confined to the home" dogs get treated better than children that live near us. My dogs have had in the last year 3 dental cleanings and extractions, ACL surgery and OFA evaluations. And on that note, these were all "elective" options that not everyone does- and yeah- they set our one income family back but the dogs wouldnt know it.

they are DOGS. they have a pack. they have 2 people in their pack that love them. their food costs more than OUR food costs. I feed my female grain free food because she has allergies, I bathe her weekly with baby shampoo and she sleeps between us in the bed. Our other two get along fine with her. They run, they sleep, they play, they eat, they get loved. So please explain to me how they are lacking by not going out 'into the world'. Or, did you just jump to the conclusion that I keep her locked in a closet with a Hannibal mask? :rolleyes:

I have Pit Bulls. REAL pit bulls. not that the Pit bull mixes, bullies ect don't have the same general gene pool, but i have actual GAME BRED dogs. the drive is desired. I have had her trained professionally. As in I can stand in a busy parking lot and put her down and drop the leash and walk a row away... she sticks to the pavement. So. . . YES i can bring her to petsmart and petco and hey! probably even the dog park. but i know one of those times that we could conceivably have some idiot let their little untrained yappy dog jump up on her or get in her face and yup- you said it- one bite and that would be it. So i micromanage her to make sure it NEVER happens.

And as far as im concerned, bringing in a young, opposite sex puppy into our carefully managed home .. will be fine-I mean we did bring in Ms. Beezley when bug was a year and a half old and we're FINE now. I simply expressed the desire to hear about breeds that will be EASIER to make into barn dogs. . . I could conceivably take one of the other pit bulls but I am just tired of the breed stigma and i'd rather just leave my babies at home and NOT hear about how vicious they are.

I hope i can find an intelligent educated breeder who respects my choice to keep my dogs safe from ever having to be put down because someone is too dumb to control their own dog .


I don't mean to rant at you but i'm very very passionate about how my dogs are raised.

Pitties on Parade- Enjoying a rare GA snow with my Inlaws dogs.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2421/74/76/58102172/n58102172_31299926_1871672.jpg

DandyMatiz
Jul. 12, 2010, 01:45 AM
Doxies (not the mini but the full size) are very sturdy. And will probably be over 20 lbs. You have to be a bit careful with the backs ofcourse. Mine was kinda cranky with big dogs though and would roll them over.

mg
Jul. 12, 2010, 01:56 AM
Not exactly sure what you mean by "sturdy," but I have a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel and he is absolutely FANTASTIC. I realize they look like snobby dogs and that many probably stay stuck in Manhattan penthouses their whole lives, but mine is treated like a spaniel, not an accessory.

Breed standards put Cavaliers between 13 and 18 lbs. I find the ones who are over 20 lbs are too fat. They are VERY friendly with all sorts of people and dogs, but they are also smart and understand when to back off or approach with caution. My pup gets along fantastically with my dad's Pit mix and my sister's Pit/Boxer. Cavaliers are also quite smart (though not as genius as BCs) and very much want to please their people, so they are quite easy to train.

Since they do have the spaniel hunting instinct, they can be a little distractable, but I found my dog grew out of this as he got older (he's almost 11 months now!). He is always off-leash at the barn, never runs towards the road, respects the horses, and comes the second I call his name.

Again, I realize they might not *look* as sturdy as you may be looking for, but I guarantee these guys can hold their own. Mine will outlast my friends and I on day hikes, and will run around for hours at the barn, jumping and rolling through mud, tall grass, hay, manure, you name it. They do require some grooming, but you said you should be fine with that. All I've really had to deal with is ear mats, burrs, and hosing him down if he gets too gross at the barn.

Sorry to blab on and on :-P but you can tell, I really love my breed! He is the perfect combination of fun, smart, cuddly, and adventurous. Plus, he's SUPER cute ;)

Aaaand, just because I'm a crazy dog mom, here's a picture of him hanging out at the barn last night: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs025.ash2/34592_1354429780325_1218840008_30914737_5122917_n. jpg

sisu27
Jul. 12, 2010, 10:24 AM
Wire Haired Fox Terrier came to mind. BUT...you might have a hard time convincing it to not try to kill the Pits. I have known a few that were perfect and not at all crazy aggressive but I have also owned the exact opposite dog that never, ever gave up trying to kill every male dog he met. We went through many pro trainers that said "I quit" with him. I think the females are much easier and a sturdier dog you won't find.

How cute is this guy? http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/16457213

Or her? http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/16581519

I would expect you would have a very difficult time adopting from most rescues with 3 Pits at home though. And I agree...any decent breeder. You said yourself that little dogs "in her face" results in violence. How can you "train" a pup to know that being friendly will result in death? I would probably try to find someone who will adopt an adult dog to you...not a pup.

Belair
Jul. 12, 2010, 12:15 PM
What about a boston terrier? They're very sturdy and usually top out at about 20 lbs. I have two pits and the three of them get along very well.

Aven
Jul. 12, 2010, 12:29 PM
Thats rude to say a good breeder won't look at someone with pits. I am a good breeder (lol could be biased) No I would not sell a JRT to someone with APBT but thats because a JRT won't back down and is a mouthful to an annoyed APBT. I would however sell a LHW to someone like the OP. Whippets are so non confrontational. They make a good compliment to the VERY confrontational JRTs.

A good breeder is going to know that APBTs are not child eating monsters who are going to devour any new dog or person who enters the house. Some are very DA, most that I know are very 'strange dog aggressive' and are ok with polite dogs who live in the group.

Hannahsmom
Jul. 12, 2010, 12:33 PM
Aven, I think that what was meant that most terriers (that meet the small and sturdy reqts) would potentially be confrontational and a good breeder would worry about that. They are bred to not back down from varmints after all. There will be some concerns about adding a fourth dog to the mix of three already.

To the OP, have you considered Welsh Corgis? Either variety although the Cardigans are quite laid back.

cheval convert
Jul. 12, 2010, 12:34 PM
What about a Tibetan terrier? I don't know much about this breed but the one I have met was a wonderful dog, probably a little more than 20 pounds. Very friendly and not dog aggressive. You will have to do some research but this one might fit the bill.

wendy
Jul. 12, 2010, 12:35 PM
I don't know what you mean by "sturdy" either; do you desire the dog to carry a weighted backpack at all times? be able to survive being kicked by a horse? what?
the small poodles are probably one of the toughest dog breeds alive, certainly they have the longest lifespan on average; any of the small hunting breeds or terriers are robust tough critters.

I have to say also that I think you're going to have trouble getting a breeder to sell to you. They (and I) will question why you *failed* to properly socialize three other prior dogs into being "take em out and about" type dogs? I've met plenty of happy friendly pit bulls that enjoy being taken out into the world. I wouldn't suggest letting a pit bull run wild in a dog park, but they are certainly capable of learning how to go on regular trips with the owners to horse shows etc.
Taking a dog out into the world means you (and your dog) have to learn to DEAL with the idiots out there who insist on letting their "Friendly" rude labs and snappy yorkies get into your dogs face.
I'm sure the breeder will also worry about you taking the pup home and dumping it into a housefull of pitties who, according to their owner, are too aggressive to go out and visit the world.

CatOnLap
Jul. 12, 2010, 12:42 PM
they are not dogs I can just bring to the barn and let them go while I ride

I have to say, that this is second on my list of rude and dangerous things a person can do at the barn- leave their pet dogs running loose at while others are riding, tacking or grooming. I surely hope you didn't mean that literally, or else, you own your own barn and are not annoying others with your little darlings. I've cut and chased more than one dog out of the riding ring, tail between legs, sometimes yelping when horsey can get a nip in.

First on my list is people who let their pet children between ages 3 and 9, run unsupervised at the barn. My horse is not allowed to nip them and they don't run fast enough to be interesting to cut and chase.

That said, pugs are sturdy little footballs not afraid of anything, are small, cuddly and my neighbour's pug keep his GSD's and rottweillers in line. Its so funny!

Aven
Jul. 12, 2010, 12:44 PM
They (and I) will question why you *failed* to properly socialize three other prior dogs into being "take em out and about" type dogs? I've met plenty of happy friendly pit bulls that enjoy being taken out into the world. I wouldn't suggest letting a pit bull run wild in a dog park, but they are certainly capable of learning how to go on regular trips with the owners to horse shows etc.

I don't speak for the OP but I have friends in the same situation..

All the socialization in the world won't change basic nature. And then you have the extra responsibility for owning an APBT and by that I mean public perception.

I have a JRT who is a very successful obedience, rally obedience, agility dog, has been one of the two acting credits in a BAFTA nominated film etc etc (so highly trained and used to working in public) Yet if someone's loose or out of control dog gets in her face she goes nuts!

Now a 11 inch dog going nuts isn't going to scare people. Its not going to fuel BSL freaks. I wish people would take it more seriously but they don't cause she is small and cute.

Now lets say you have a well trained but not dog friendly pittie. Someone's loose obnoxious lab runs up and gets in your dog's face. Your dog snarks and snarls. Even if no contact is made your dog is EVIL simply because its an APBT. Heaven forbid if your dog actually makes contact!!

The sad truth is that APBT owners are held to a higher standard due to the public's perception of their breed. (there are far 'scarier' breeds out there but for some reason the APBT has been the public's dead horse to flog for a while now)

CatOnLap
Jul. 12, 2010, 12:59 PM
Aven, you are right. I have two lovely rottweiller crosses whose tails were docked before they were rescued by an agency and then adopted by me. They are sweet, friendly, loving, cuddly, have never bit or menaced anyone.

People are terrified of them.

I've had them run down the driveway to visit with dogs passing by, remaining in our sight, butts wagging, tongues lolling, friendly conversation between dogs, and return to us when we whistled, but later get the visit from the police about our dogs supposedly being aggressive. Not even any barking involved! But its their size and their docked tails- people think they are giant dog terrorists.

Fortunately the policeman was dog wise and when both dogs ran over to greet him and lick his hands in his uniform and squad car, he acknowledged the dogs were not a problem.

You can socialize them to death, but its the public perception of anything that resembles a doberman, pit bull or rottweiller. I can never let my dogs off the short leash while in pulbic. not because of them.


Yet, some lady can have her stoopid untrained fluffy purse dog jump on me, scratch my leg and try to nip while we are standing in line at a checkout, and SHE gets mad at me when I picked it up on the toe of my boot and tossed it about 6 feet to prevent it biting me!

mg
Jul. 12, 2010, 01:32 PM
Public perception certainly is an issue with a lot of breeds, and just bigger dogs in general. My mother is absolutely convinced that her neighbor's GSDs want to consume my Cavalier. I know she's a good dog owner, so when they came over to greet my pup once, I wasn't scared at all. They were very gentle and just wanted to sniff him and check him out.

It really grinds me when people automatically assume all Rotties, GSDs, or bully breeds are man & dog eating monsters. I've met far more ferocious small dogs who are aggressive/dangerous because their owners carry them all the time and never bothered to train them. I can totally understand why the OP is hesitant to take her APBTs with her to a lot of public places. It's just not worth it in most cases.

On the flip side--and I realize this isn't nearly as bad as having your dog jump on someone and have them scream bloody murder--it's SO annoying when you're trying to train your super cute, small dog to be polite when greeting people and they pick them up or encourage them jumping and go, "Oh no, it's fine!!" No, it isn't!

I think a good breeder/rescue will be able to tell what kind of dog owner OP is and obviously a meeting should be arranged between her dogs and the new dog anyway to make sure things will be okay before she just brings a new dog home.

Riley0522
Jul. 12, 2010, 01:36 PM
I have to say, that this is second on my list of rude and dangerous things a person can do at the barn- leave their pet dogs running loose at while others are riding, tacking or grooming. I surely hope you didn't mean that literally, or else, you own your own barn and are not annoying others with your little darlings. I've cut and chased more than one dog out of the riding ring, tail between legs, sometimes yelping when horsey can get a nip in.

First on my list is people who let their pet children between ages 3 and 9, run unsupervised at the barn. My horse is not allowed to nip them and they don't run fast enough to be interesting to cut and chase.

That said, pugs are sturdy little footballs not afraid of anything, are small, cuddly and my neighbour's pug keep his GSD's and rottweillers in line. Its so funny!



Yes, I do mean that quite literally. There are some boarders who bring their dogs and let them run while they ride. I will admit, at times it can be annoying, but the dogs in general have gotten better over time and the owners are really good about keeping the dogs out of the rings and by their side. You also haven't seen my barn or the atmosphere, it's very small, BYB type, with lots of trails and land, so one dog in particular goes on trails with owner.

hundredacres
Jul. 12, 2010, 02:06 PM
I think when a breeder is talking with someone over the phone (or worse, email) they can't judge that person adequately...and they HAVE to assume the worst. We have a rental home and while we allow or tenants to have a dog (we have 4 of our own) we simply do not for one second consider a renter with a pit bull or rottweiler. Not because we think those dogs are terrible, but because in our neck of the woods, people who are attracted to those dogs, 99% of the time, are questionable types. In our experience pb/rott owners have other issues. Having said that, I have 3 very good friends who own rotts and pb's and they are the most responsible people and pet owners I know. They are the exception though, and none of them live in my town. I can't gamble with a rental contract...I would be less likely to gamble with a puppy.

OP, I am not saying I doubt that you are a wonderful dog owner (I'm sure you are!) - just trying to help you understand what you may be up against.

sisu27
Jul. 12, 2010, 02:51 PM
Thats rude to say a good breeder won't look at someone with pits. I am a good breeder (lol could be biased) No I would not sell a JRT to someone with APBT but thats because a JRT won't back down and is a mouthful to an annoyed APBT. I would however sell a LHW to someone like the OP. Whippets are so non confrontational. They make a good compliment to the VERY confrontational JRTs.

A good breeder is going to know that APBTs are not child eating monsters who are going to devour any new dog or person who enters the house. Some are very DA, most that I know are very 'strange dog aggressive' and are ok with polite dogs who live in the group.

I don't think rude would be the word....and it isn't really about the breed 100%. I would question why someone with 3 dogs that are not fit to be in public even needs another dog. My suggestion, honestly, would be to wait until you lose one or two and then consider another. Were I running a rescue or a breeder I would not call the situation ideal. I do think that the unfortunate reality with that particular breed is that eventually $hit can happen and when it does....the results can be devastating. I have known a few that proved this point. One killed all the barn cats and then the house cat and then decided to grab a horse. Lights out for him. He was fine for a long time and then just changed his mind I guess. It sucked because we all loved him and thought what a great ambassador he was for the breed. I do understand what it is like to own such breeds....I have had Dobes for most of my life. My current rescue is an amazing dog but he looks pretty imposing. He goes everywhere with me and is rarely on a leash. I hack with him and I have better control over that dog from the saddle without even having to raise my voice then 99.9% of the idiots I meet that are on foot and with dog. Yet I do get the odd fool saying that a "dog like that" should not be out in public. Even though he is probably glued to me, ignoring everyone else in sight and quietly minding his own business. I still would not adopt another anything to me if I had three of him though. Larger packs can change things as well.

billiebob
Jul. 12, 2010, 02:59 PM
I love Cairns! They're very low maintenance, both grooming and health-wise. Sturdy, too. Both of the ones I've had have been great around horses since day one--my current one, Billy, was at the barn before he was home.

The biggest issue for me with Billy is that his recall skills are somewhat......unreliable. He won't come to his own name all the time but if I call the cat or yell "cheese in the kitchen" or "dinner" or "cookie" he's right there behind me :lol:. I've been working on his recall skills since he was four months old and now, at the age of 5, he's almost reliable to be outside without his leash. Sometimes. He doesn't get to go to the barn much because of it, but he's very well-behaved when he does go. And he's a great horse show dog.

This is the last time he went outside without his leash. I was shoveling several feet of snow off the driveway and it made a nice fence for him.
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2744459390105464652eMAIPC

kookicat
Jul. 12, 2010, 02:59 PM
Not exactly sure what you mean by "sturdy," but I have a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel and he is absolutely FANTASTIC. I realize they look like snobby dogs and that many probably stay stuck in Manhattan penthouses their whole lives, but mine is treated like a spaniel, not an accessory.

Breed standards put Cavaliers between 13 and 18 lbs. I find the ones who are over 20 lbs are too fat. They are VERY friendly with all sorts of people and dogs, but they are also smart and understand when to back off or approach with caution. My pup gets along fantastically with my dad's Pit mix and my sister's Pit/Boxer. Cavaliers are also quite smart (though not as genius as BCs) and very much want to please their people, so they are quite easy to train.

Since they do have the spaniel hunting instinct, they can be a little distractable, but I found my dog grew out of this as he got older (he's almost 11 months now!). He is always off-leash at the barn, never runs towards the road, respects the horses, and comes the second I call his name.

Again, I realize they might not *look* as sturdy as you may be looking for, but I guarantee these guys can hold their own. Mine will outlast my friends and I on day hikes, and will run around for hours at the barn, jumping and rolling through mud, tall grass, hay, manure, you name it. They do require some grooming, but you said you should be fine with that. All I've really had to deal with is ear mats, burrs, and hosing him down if he gets too gross at the barn.

Sorry to blab on and on :-P but you can tell, I really love my breed! He is the perfect combination of fun, smart, cuddly, and adventurous. Plus, he's SUPER cute ;)

Aaaand, just because I'm a crazy dog mom, here's a picture of him hanging out at the barn last night: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs025.ash2/34592_1354429780325_1218840008_30914737_5122917_n. jpg

Your boy is cute! :D

I have two CKCS. They are awesome dogs.

Aven
Jul. 12, 2010, 04:12 PM
[QUOTE=sisu27;4974133One killed all the barn cats and then the house cat and then decided to grab a horse. Lights out for him. He was fine for a long time and then just changed his mind I guess. It sucked because we all loved him and thought what a great ambassador he was for the breed. [/QUOTE]

Its not the size of the dog. My JRTs will kill cats. A retriever sized dog can cause a lot of damage in a hurry too. Personally I would rather sell to someone who has shown they know how to handle 3 game bred APBT (would involve some investigation) than someone who had three goldens with no training other than just pets.

Personally I wouldn't kill a dog for prey drive, but thats just me. (would you kill a barn cat for killing mice?)

Equino
Jul. 12, 2010, 04:14 PM
It is true that "bully" breeds come with a stigma attached and owners have to do more to socialize and train them. I have a 60lb Aussie that can be wary of strangers and takes his job as our protector seriously. He's never attacked a person or other animal, but he gives off signals that he is clearly uncomfortable with strangers approaching our space. I am surprised how many people run up and get in his face when I have him out for a walk. I once had a parent ask if he can lick the ice cream off her children's arms and before I could respond, shoved them in his face! Luckily, he wasn't afraid then, dutifully licked them from head to toe, but what if he was? I always make him sit/stay the second someone is clearly coming to meet him. His hair will stand up and he will bark, yet people STILL insist on approaching. I got smart and I carry treats on me so these people who clearly can't read dog body language, end up helping to desensitize my dog, but I know if I had a Pitt on the end of the leash, those same people would be running across the road.

>>>No I wouldn't kill a dog for their prey drive but I certainly would not expect him to be trustworthy around other animals once he killed the 1st. A JRT killing barn mice is one thing. A JRT that one day kills the barn cat when I have multiple cats is another. If I couldn't keep them separate, I would have a lot of decisions to make.

wendy
Jul. 12, 2010, 04:31 PM
Now lets say you have a well trained but not dog friendly pittie. Someone's loose obnoxious lab runs up and gets in your dog's face. Your dog snarks and snarls. Even if no contact is made your dog is EVIL simply because its an APBT. Heaven forbid if your dog actually makes contact!!


what does this have to do with pitties? ALL dog owners have to deal with this situation. I have a malinois, who will normally be reasonably friendly/ happily ignore other dogs, but if a stupid lab owner lets his stupid lab jump up on me, all hell breaks loose. Yeah, the lab owner thinks my pointy-eared dog is "EVIL" but who cares? maybe someday the stupid lab owners of the world will get the message.
I know quite a few owners of border collies, GSDs, mixed-breeds, assorted terriers, Dobies, even golden retrievers, all of whom react in the exact same way to rude behavior from other dogs. Do we creep off and hide at home? no, we take steps: we keep our dogs on leash in most situations, we train our dogs well, we do our best to socialize them, we do not let them run loose un-supervised, and we try to educate the rude owners of rude dogs. If can't educate, at least scare them.
And I have to say, I'm in the camp of those who say taking your dog to
a public boarding barn and letting it run loose with no supervision is the height of irresponsibility, utterly rude, and something you just shouldn't do.

CrazyGuineaPigLady
Jul. 12, 2010, 04:33 PM
I would question why someone with 3 dogs that are not fit to be in public even needs another dog.

Me too. What if the new dog doesn’t work out at home or in public? Rough and tumble barn/take to-horseshow dogs don’t come with a guarantee just because they came from a “good” breeder. In my experience it’s been training, the right personality and lots of time with just a little bit of genetics thrown in that makes them enjoyable for everyone involved. A puppy that’s one of 4 will likely not get the time and training at home to be a better citizen in public. And, he’d probably start taking advantage of what he perceives as being the favorite by challenging the other dogs.

I’m not a fan of most of the breeds suggested on this thread because I’ve seen so many that were obnoxious around the horses, but people insisted on bringing them to the barn anyway. Not their fault, but I’ll take a well socialized and well trained off-breed any day of the week over some of the A-hole dogs that got a pass because they were supposed to be good horse dogs.


My suggestion, honestly, would be to wait until you lose one or two and then consider another.

Mine would be to love the ones you have and work towards getting any of them to the barn before you pin your hopes on a new dog that may come with it's own set of problems.

Equino
Jul. 12, 2010, 04:46 PM
what does this have to do with pitties? ALL dog owners have to deal with this situation.

If you read my post above yours, I think that is the point. Pit Bulls and other bully breeds have a stigma attached and any sign of aggression or unhappiness, regardless of who is at fault, will be blown way out of proportion. I've known lovely Pitts, Rotties, Dobies, etc and I've also known JRT and Yorkies, who have bit people. I think as dog owners we are all responsible for teaching our dogs the proper way to behave and give them boundaries. Much like children. And horses. But I will act as if I expect others not to follow that same rule. I avoid dog parks for that reason. I have two non-aggressive breeds, and both are extremely laid back, good with other dogs, etc. But I am afraid of the idiot with the crazy, out of control dog who injuries me or my dog because it's owner lets it run loose and think it's "just playing."

To get back on topic...I hope you can find a dog that meets your criteria and also is not a threat to your current pack of dogs. I know it can take some maneuvering to bring a puppy into a pack, especially when you have a dog that may not be extremely tolerant to other dogs. Over the last year, I heard of two different scenarios where a dog was killed by a Pitt in their own home-one was a fostered Boarder Collie who was "guarding" the family (caged) bunny and that Pitt was supposedly non-aggressive until that point. The other was a Pitt mix that was known to be snippy and killed a puppy Pitt mix. You just never know. Both owners have been denied the ability to foster future dogs, understandably so.

Aven
Jul. 12, 2010, 04:56 PM
what does this have to do with pitties? ALL dog owners have to deal with this situation. I have a malinois, who will normally be reasonably friendly/ happily ignore other dogs, but if a stupid lab owner lets his stupid lab jump up on me, all hell breaks loose. Yeah, the lab owner thinks my pointy-eared dog is "EVIL" but who cares? maybe someday the stupid lab owners of the world will get the message.
I know quite a few owners of border collies, GSDs, mixed-breeds, assorted terriers, Dobies, even golden retrievers, all of whom react in the exact same way to rude behavior from other dogs. Do we creep off and hide at home? no, we take steps: we keep our dogs on leash in most situations, we train our dogs well, we do our best to socialize them, we do not let them run loose un-supervised, and we try to educate the rude owners of rude dogs. If can't educate, at least scare them.


That is exactly the point. All dogs can do it, but its only news when an APBT does it. I live in a BSL province. In ontario you were far less likely to be hurt by an APBT than pretty much any breed going.. didn't matter it was due to public perception. It has nothing to do with what actually happens, everything to do with what people think happens.

One of the people on a dog forum I am on had her dog shot and killed because it was an APBT. A lab broke out and attacked her dog, the owner came out and shot HER dog even though the lab attacked and was biting people... That never made the news as it was a lab attack, and that never makes good headlines..

Many APBT enthusiasts are very protective of their breed and are extrememly vigilant to make sure nothing happens that gives the BSL freaks more fuel. Just think what fugly would say if an APBT chased a horse through a fence, that would make her blog.. but not likely if it was a cairn terrier...

I have 7 dogs right now. Can't say that its not do able if you put forth the effort. All are happy house dogs (on rotation with a large yard and farm) they all show in some venue and are all well loved and well trained. Just because someone goes to 4 dogs does not necessarily mean the new one won't get any attention. Some dogs are only dogs and don't get much interaction. I would want to weight the owners experiences and plans on my own.

emaren
Jul. 12, 2010, 05:01 PM
Miniature sheltie. You couldn't get them to run away if you tried so you don't have to worry about dropping the leash by accident in public. They take no training to learn to heal because they want to be with you at all times. My biggest complaint is that I can't get this dog to leave me alone and they require regular brushing and shed out bigtime in the summer. They shed out so much (all at once really) you could brush out the fur and sell it to hand spinners on etsy or ebay. They also do this really cute spin thing when they are walking beside you. Also might be a dog to suffer separation anxiety if you aren't careful. The dog I have experience with killed my 6-week old chickens when left unsupervised, when supervised he never even glanced towards them. He weighs 15-16 lbs. He has never had any issues with horse or goat chasing/herding, but he will run along side me and nip at my ankles when he wants attention.

SaturdayNightLive
Jul. 12, 2010, 05:08 PM
Whatever you get, train it. Barn dogs require tons and tons of training. I'm sure you already know this, but it's worth saying. I take my Shiba Inu to the barn and make sure she is as obedient as possible (no small feat with a Shiba). She isn't allowed to run willy nilly all over the barn, isn't allowed to bother the BO's dogs, isn't allowed to stalk the cats, and isn't allowed anywhere near any of the horses. When I'm riding, she lays down just outside of the arena and isn't allowed to move. The last thing I want is for my dog to become a problem for others.

As a side note, I do not suggest getting a Shiba. They are very prey driven, mildly dog aggressive, and not terribly inclined to listening. Not exactly the model barn dog. ;)

sisu27
Jul. 12, 2010, 05:12 PM
Its not the size of the dog. My JRTs will kill cats. A retriever sized dog can cause a lot of damage in a hurry too. Personally I would rather sell to someone who has shown they know how to handle 3 game bred APBT (would involve some investigation) than someone who had three goldens with no training other than just pets.

Personally I wouldn't kill a dog for prey drive, but thats just me. (would you kill a barn cat for killing mice?)

What a ridiculous analogy. I'm not sure where I said anything about size. Although the bigger dog can certainly do more damage. I have a German Hunt Terrier that is 100X more dangerous than my Dobe but people assume that the cute little bearded lady is harmless and that the scary Dobe is a baby killer. Point is....the GHT can't kill me but the Dobe easily could. Trust me, I hate poorly behaved dogs as much as anyone, or rather their useless owners but I will take an annoying Jack over a nasty large dog anyday.

The Pit was dangerous, he would have killed again and who knows what his next target would have been. One of the little kids coming in for a lesson? So yes, I do believe in killing a dog for prey drive in this instance.

mg
Jul. 12, 2010, 05:16 PM
Miniature sheltie.

:confused::confused: I'd be very wary of someone trying to sell something as "Miniature Sheltie." That's definitely not a breed.

gardenofsimple22
Jul. 12, 2010, 05:49 PM
I have 7 dogs right now. Can't say that its not do able if you put forth the effort. All are happy house dogs (on rotation with a large yard and farm) they all show in some venue and are all well loved and well trained. Just because someone goes to 4 dogs does not necessarily mean the new one won't get any attention. Some dogs are only dogs and don't get much interaction. I would want to weight the owners experiences and plans on my own.

We currently have the three mentioned. We have also successfully managed a 6 dog home for about 8 months after my good friend ( and trainer) had a medical issue and had to disperse his kennel. We took 3. Unfortuantly none of them had been out of kennels in the time he had had them ( thus is the life of a breeding dog I guess :cry:) but we got them house broken, fixed and rehomed. It was time and labor intensive. it was also an issue of what if noone gets along? and hailey did not like the female...and snarked at the males for the first week but we got thru it. I KNOW how to manage my dogs... and no, i'd never toss a puppy in the group and expect it to just work. it's going to take time and patience and understanding what each of the dogs needs at the moment. I'm not worried about the dogs being left together in a room either because generally I have a court following me every move I make ... what i wouldnt give to go to the bathroom ALONE!

gardenofsimple22
Jul. 12, 2010, 05:55 PM
I spoke with a few breeders and dog show people today. Lots of fact gathering and we have two appointments to visit kennels this weekend. One kennel is a Cairn Terrier breeder, but both he and I are a little iffy if a small terrier and pit family can blend but I'd like to visit and see the adults anyway. . . the other is a Corgi 'breeder' that has a litter now and again.

I'm not planning on being an annoying dog at barn lady : ) I DO plan on taking the dog/puppy to the barn when I am having a short day of grooming or groundwork or when my fiance is able to watch him . . . at this rate that is about 5 days a week.

Hannahsmom
Jul. 12, 2010, 06:04 PM
A couple of years ago when I was researching for my next breed (I had a JRT at the time), I called a breeder about a Cardigan Welsh Corgi. She talked me out of it at the time but I have been around them since and really love them. They aren't 20 pounds but they have such lovely temperaments. Pembrokes are cute too. I ended up with terriers, love them to death but they do need to be stripped to be looking good. The Cardi would have been easier care-wise.

Aven
Jul. 12, 2010, 06:10 PM
you pointed out killing cats, I pointed out you didn't need size to do that. As for dangerous Poms and JRTs have killed children. APBT are a medium sized dog.. So when it comes to danger they aren't way up the list. A fila, corso, akita, caucasian etc are much larger and can have similar DA (and at times HA) issues. But people don't generally say 'oh people won't sell to you' because you have a pit and it could cause more damage, well then they should never sell to a dane owner or a greyhound as they are bigger, and lets not talk about dogos...

Its breedism lol. I was interested in basenjis, the breeders who had dogs I liked, were fine till they realized I had JRTs.. my JRTs were going to eat their dogs, even though I have many other breeds come and stay (right now we have a BC, two LHW and two cocker spaniels here) IT comes down to PERCEPTION, not reality.

Equino
Jul. 12, 2010, 06:24 PM
I agree with what you wrote, but I think the bigger picture is if you are going to get a dog, you need to know exactly what the characteristics of that breed are and be sure it fits your lifestyle, and that you are capable/willing to deal with any tough traits (be it dog aggression, strong prey drive, tracking scents at all costs, etc). Yes, Terriers, be it a JR or PB have huge prey drive. That is what they were bred to do-PB were combined to have the prey instinct of the Terrier and strength/athleticism of a bulldog. And yes, not every APBT are going to rip a new puppy's throat out, but it would be less surprising if an APBT did then say a Sheltie. If as a dog owner you aren't prepared to handle certain situations that may arise due to the genetic nature of the dog, you shouldn't own that breed. ((NOT you, just people in general!!!))) But to say that it's all perception that only one or two rare, bad incidents are what gave the APBT their reputation, I think that is untrue. These dogs were originally bred to bring down wild cattle/hogs, and then later to fight other dogs. So, of course it is their nature to be reactive towards dogs.

My parents have had Boxers practically all my life and I think they are wonderful, smart, people friendly dogs. But they can be territorial when it comes to their homes and packs, and the same dogs who will lick strangers, and never look twice at some menacing dog next to them in school, would most likely attack a strange dog or animal that comes on their property. So, when I went looking for a suitable breed of dog to fit my barn working/living lifestyle, I never once considered a Boxer...even though my dogs are never loose unattended. I have seen Boxers at the barn that get along just fine, but I look at them as exceptions, not the rule. Whereas Labs or Goldies or Aussies who attack are the exceptions of their breeds (and I am NOT a Lab fan at all).

sisu27
Jul. 12, 2010, 06:42 PM
you pointed out killing cats, I pointed out you didn't need size to do that. As for dangerous Poms and JRTs have killed children.

People are killed in traffic accidents and by vending machines every year. Guess which one is more prevalent? Holy pretzel logic.

I love my Dobes more than anything (don't tell the horses!) but there is a reason they have a reputation. Maybe not for the reasons that most people think and the modern Dobe is a relatively easy dog to own but they do have some natural instincts that could make them dangerous in the wrong hands. I was sent a bite list that listed the breeds that killed when they attacked and Dobes were right up there with Pits (never their own people with Dobes in spite of the old wives tale) They are not a breed for everyone. I would say the same about Pits. Wonderful dogs in the right hands and the right situations.

Point is that one would want to be very careful adding to the OPs particular pack. My feeling is why would you want to risk the possible mess it could create?

katarine
Jul. 12, 2010, 06:51 PM
but was it a Pomeranian vending machine???

Aven
Jul. 12, 2010, 08:37 PM
lol. There are some interesting numbers, but actually statistically you and your children are safer with an APBT than many other breeds.

Yes I do agree that a pit bull is more likely to attack my dog than a golden. But its people perceptions that are the problem. If my golden attacks a dog no one really knows. If my pit bull attacks anything its likely to make the evening news.

Thank goodness horses don't have this PR problem :) They are far far more dangerous than dogs. (and yes I can quote numbers and sources for that)

I have to say as a dog trainer I have been attacked by more labs than any other breed. As a dog owner/competitor my dog has been jumped by a large number of labs. Part of it is numbers (lots of labs) and part of it is bad breeding and bad ownership (omg I never knew you had to socialize a lab! I thought they were all born loving everything)

Pennywell Bay
Jul. 12, 2010, 08:53 PM
Some shelters around here won't even adopt out anything with pitbull in it. I am not saying it is wrong or right. Just stating a fact. However, I read at least once a week or see it on the news pits attacking someone. I have not seen those same stats on a pack of goldens or labs... doubt they exist honestly. Sadly- owners who are not capable of handling and training their animals exist no matter what breed, pits to poodles. It is ultimately up to the breeders to make every attempt to place the animals into homes that are knowledgable or capable or willing to be educated. I would not knowing place any dog into the situation described by the OP and I can think of lots of breeds that would be suitable companions but not in that situation. No offense, sounds like a recipe for disaster, no matter the breed.
And I love pits, I actually always say if my JRT was 50 pounds, he'd be lethal...( not really but he is a typical terrier)

Aven
Jul. 12, 2010, 09:39 PM
Interesting thing is many of those pitbull attacks, aren't pitbulls. For example there was a girl near me killed by a family dog (not her family though). ALL the papers went on saying it was a pitbull. It wasn't. It was a purebred mastiff of some kinds. But that doesn't sell papers...

There have been some stranger ones too, like an attack by a very obvious german shepherd that was labelled as an APBT. Though the issue is that its the people who make the breed. Winnipeg banned APBT and the like and rottie bites skyrocketed. These are the sorts of people who would make a lab viscous, so there isn't much you can do except cringe at the mess they are making for people who do love the breed.

All that said I don't think I would want a powerful prey driven dog on my farm except under the closest of supervision and leashed. So perhaps its just as well the OP doesn't take her dogs to horse shows.

Laurierace
Jul. 12, 2010, 09:44 PM
My Pom is the perfect go anywhere, do anything dog. She loves everyone and everything. My sheltie is a good barn dog but gets shy in new situations. I took him to a horse auction once and he cowered under my chair the whole time.

tallyho392
Jul. 12, 2010, 09:44 PM
TOY FOX TERRIER TOY FOX TERRIER....

have had JRTs for over 25 yrs.........i love the terriers in general, but was unaware of toy fox terriers til i stumbled across one and adopted him after my last jrt died........

he is PERFECT........cute as a jrt, with stick up ears, but doesn't have the manic pery drive the jrts do........NO WANDERING....he meanders around the property, but has almost instant recall...............and this was a pound puppy......he is non dog aggressive, great with kids and babes, horses, cats...
my male is 12 lbs, my female about 10.....they are very sturdy, hardy, outdoor dogs..my female is quite petite compaired to the male, but she is a tough one, always ready to go, and keeps up with everyone.............and they are terrific snugglers

i was totally impressed,

and researched the breed...of couirse the all say their dogs are great......
had the chance to adopt another rescue, and asked the rescue lady if his personality was typical.......she said yes, they are all pretty much like that......and my second one, a female , is all that and more......
had i known about this breed 20 yrs ago, i would have switched to the fox terriers sooner..

wendy
Jul. 13, 2010, 09:29 AM
Though the issue is that its the people who make the breed.
yeah- people don't like to admit it, but certain types of people are attracted to certain types of breeds, and breeds do come with inborn tendencies. Example: labs. In good hands, labs are lovely, well-mannered, friendly retrievers. Unfortunately, all of the dog-clueless persons out there seem to end up getting badly bred labs, fail to socialize/train/exercise the dogs, fail to keep the dogs under control, and so one is forced to generalize when one sees a lab: bad manners, not trained, rude, stupid ignorant owner; and usually you're right.
Same thing has happened with pitties except with a different type of bad owners attracted to the breed.

which brings us back the OP- three dogs, count them, THREE, whom the OP has *failed* to socialize and train such that she? feels she can take them around and about in public. So she gives up on them, and decides to get another dog. What would YOU predict will happen with the next dog, regardless of breed?

Equino
Jul. 13, 2010, 09:53 AM
My Pom is the perfect go anywhere, do anything dog. She loves everyone and everything. My sheltie is a good barn dog but gets shy in new situations. I took him to a horse auction once and he cowered under my chair the whole time.

My Sheltie has no problems with new situations, and tolerates new people-everyone wants to pet him and you can see him kinda sigh and humor them. With my parents two Shelties-one is more like my guy (his 1/2 sister) and the other is SO shy about everything (same breeder, different mom-we found out later that mom is pretty shy herself, and the siblings we know are shy as well). I moved back home temp for 6 months and at the end he decided I wasn't going to kill him when I entered the room. He WAS properly socialized, went to class and went along to dog shows. Turned out he has to be on thyroid medication, while it has helped, he is still pretty skittish. Being fearful is not a Sheltie trait, but being a bit standoffish is, which I like because then they aren't jumping on every person who walks in.

wendy-I can't tell you how many people I know get labs, lab mixes thinking,"Oh, they are cute and loveable!" and those dogs become the biggest PIA because the owners think they are born trained. Yes, in the right hands, they are lovely dogs. So are most breeds. I hate most when people get tiny dogs and teach them to "smile" by teasing them until they growl and bite and then wonder why they can't take toys away from them.

Pennywell Bay
Jul. 13, 2010, 09:57 AM
"What would YOU predict will happen with the next dog, regardless of breed?"

I think it will get eaten before it gets a chance to be unsocialized.....

Equino
Jul. 13, 2010, 10:14 AM
which brings us back the OP- three dogs, count them, THREE, whom the OP has *failed* to socialize and train such that she? feels she can take them around and about in public. So she gives up on them, and decides to get another dog. What would YOU predict will happen with the next dog, regardless of breed?

Thing is, you don't know the OP or her dogs. She may just be very careful and not wanting to run into a situation that can escalate out of control. The one dog just may be more dog reactive and there is nothing you can do to socialize/train that out of her. I know people with breeds who tend to be dog reactive who avoid taking their dogs to the barn or dog parks or other situations they can't control completely, but the dogs are still lovely animals who work well with their owners. It doesn't necessarily mean they are not socialize properly. I gave an example of my parents pack w/Boxers earlier-wonderful, very socialized and well trained dogs, a couple have done Therapy programs (Reading w/Rover, go to nursing homes). Yet my parents will not trust them for a second by taking them off leash in a public situation and seeing what'll happen. I call that smart ownership. They do have Shelties and a Border Collie living happily in that same pack (was three Boxers, but they lost two over the past year to DM). They were VERY careful about picking a breed that would be accepted into the pack. The actually were more concerned about a high drive BC, and what sex would be accepted the best. The BC is the current alpha dog's best friend (both are bitches). The alpha male that died last month could care less about her, and she respected him-she torments the female, but if he even glanced at her toy or whatever she was guarding, she immediately gave it up (and anyone who knows BC knows that is not common!). But that was a concern. Every now and then the Shelties get too yappy as they play their herding dog games, and a Boxer would put a stop to it, mostly make noise and knock one over with a paw. Scary of course, but never a mark. The Shelties do roll right over and always back off. I suppose a more aggressive dog could take that as wounded prey and be more dangerous. But luckily in my parents' pack, order is restored and all are happy.

But then my Aussie...for some reason the Boxers HATE him. He is a bit pushy in play and very vocal, but will fling himself on the ground in any confrontation. We think it's the eyes (yellow) because he really is submissive, but he has that Aussie herding drive. The male hated him from the get go as a 3 month old puppy, so we never had them together. The female loved him, but since the male died, she has now decided she hates him. We've been taking them for walks together and training them in class (on and off leash) and she's fine with him in public, but not in her own home. We won't chance it, you just never know! And this is with well trained, socialized dogs. It is their instinct and there is no reasoning with them.

shakeytails
Jul. 13, 2010, 10:23 AM
Whatever you get, train it. Barn dogs require tons and tons of training.

Oh I don't know about that. I've never "trained" any of my dogs, whether they were house dogs or barn dogs. They don't sit, lay down or stay on command, and my Pyrenees only comes when she's called if she feels like it (or I holler like I really mean it!). Most of them haven't even been leash trained. Other than the Shar-pei (who were leash trained and house dogs only due to prey drive), they've all adapted to life around horses/cattle/farm equipment with no problems, even the starved pit bull I picked up along the side of a remote back road.

To the OP- May I suggest a Pembroke Welsh Corgi? They're smart, happy little dogs that get along with other critters very well, love people, and happily stay at your feet without being annoying about it. They're a little over your weight limit at about 25#, but they're sturdy and a lot of fun to have around.

In_
Jul. 13, 2010, 11:43 AM
How about a beagle? I haven't met one yet that I haven't loved. (A beagle that is part of a pet/barn household - have not met a beagle that works in a hunting pack as his/her 'living') They are wickedly intelligent, study, around your desired size, athletic, and not snarky or snippy.

sisu27
Jul. 13, 2010, 11:49 AM
but was it a Pomeranian vending machine???

Imagine that!!

Answer a brief questionnaire (What is your favorite colour? Who is your favorite designer? Who is your favorite cast member from The Hills?....) and swipe your credit card and out pops this designer, yappy creature in a cute little outfit!

That could be huge!

hundredacres
Jul. 13, 2010, 12:30 PM
How about a beagle? I haven't met one yet that I haven't loved. (A beagle that is part of a pet/barn household - have not met a beagle that works in a hunting pack as his/her 'living') They are wickedly intelligent, study, around your desired size, athletic, and not snarky or snippy.

D'oh! Excellent recommendation! Why hasn't anyone thought of that? I agree, never met one I didn't like (my mother and sis have each had 2)...wonderful, smart, intelligent, people loving dogs.

IFG
Jul. 13, 2010, 12:35 PM
To the OP- May I suggest a Pembroke Welsh Corgi? They're smart, happy little dogs that get along with other critters very well, love people, and happily stay at your feet without being annoying about it. They're a little over your weight limit at about 25#, but they're sturdy and a lot of fun to have around.

Given the Pembroke Corgis that I have known, I cannot imagine a PB tolerating them. My friend's corgi was at agility with us last week, and he took off and attacked a great dane. Not the type of confrontational dog that you want with Pit bulls IMHO.

shakeytails
Jul. 13, 2010, 12:56 PM
Given the Pembroke Corgis that I have known, I cannot imagine a PB tolerating them. My friend's corgi was at agility with us last week, and he took off and attacked a great dane. Not the type of confrontational dog that you want with Pit bulls IMHO.

That surprises me. My Corgis all avoid confrontation. They'll occasionally get snippy with each other, but they'd stay clear of my 2 grumpy old Shar-pei, and are quick to submit or retreat from any dog that isn't friendly.

MafiaPrincess
Jul. 13, 2010, 01:07 PM
That surprises me. My Corgis all avoid confrontation. They'll occasionally get snippy with each other, but they'd stay clear of my 2 grumpy old Shar-pei, and are quick to submit or retreat from any dog that isn't friendly.

As herding dogs corgis shouldn't back away from confrontation. That would be a poor trait for herding cattle. LOL just picture a cow that says it doesn't want to go over there.. and the corgi saying gee I guess you are right. If they won't back down from a 2000 pound bull they can and likely will stand their ground against a bully breed.


How about a beagle? I haven't met one yet that I haven't loved. (A beagle that is part of a pet/barn household - have not met a beagle that works in a hunting pack as his/her 'living') They are wickedly intelligent, study, around your desired size, athletic, and not snarky or snippy.

I like beagles. Good choice for not wanting to bother horses much. Most can and will follow their noses though. Not good if one wants to let it off leash or go trail riding with your dog.

Lot of beagles show up out here in the countryside that just wandered off their farms.

IFG
Jul. 13, 2010, 01:11 PM
That surprises me. My Corgis all avoid confrontation. They'll occasionally get snippy with each other, but they'd stay clear of my 2 grumpy old Shar-pei, and are quick to submit or retreat from any dog that isn't friendly.

Interesting, but not my experience.

lcw579
Jul. 13, 2010, 01:12 PM
Agree with above about beagles. They are cute but sure can travel. My sister had one and my standard poodle would disappear with it for hours and they would both come back tired and happy and looking very satisfied. Dog was impossible to keep in a fenced in yard too - he'd always find a way under and then poodle would go over and it was off to the hunting grounds.

IFG
Jul. 13, 2010, 01:19 PM
Agree with above about beagles. They are cute but sure can travel. My sister had one and my standard poodle would disappear with it for hours and they would both come back tired and happy and looking very satisfied. Dog was impossible to keep in a fenced in yard too - he'd always find a way under and then poodle would go over and it was off to the hunting grounds.

Too funny! My twin daughters are about to head to college, but when they were toddlers, we lived in LA, and we had frequent play dates at the house of another set of twins in upscale Westwood (always played at their house because I was the poor grad student, and they had a pool:lol:). Anyway, they had the kindest beagle who put up with all sorts of toddler torture. One day, when I was pulling into their gated driveway, the beagle took off as a opened the gate. I took off after him, kids still strapped in their car seats, me running after a beagle down a tony Westwood street and finally tackling him just before the main road. At that moment, I decided that although this was a lovely, child-friendly dog, I could never own a beagle.

shakeytails
Jul. 13, 2010, 01:35 PM
As herding dogs corgis shouldn't back away from confrontation. That would be a poor trait for herding cattle. LOL just picture a cow that says it doesn't want to go over there.. and the corgi saying gee I guess you are right. If they won't back down from a 2000 pound bull they can and likely will stand their ground against a bully breed.

What does cattle have to do with other dogs? Before we sold our small herd of cattle, we started to teach a couple of the Corgis to help herd them. They had a blast doing it, and they would stand their ground or get mad and work harder with an ornery cow. These same Corgis very much prefer to be lovers, not fighters, when it comes to other dogs.

The neat thing about Corgis is that while they have some herding instinct and inborn common sense around large animals, they're not driven to herd and annoy the livestock/horses/chase cars like some cattle dogs do, like several Aussies and Heelers I've known.

Aven
Jul. 13, 2010, 10:58 PM
That *can* happen. Just like there is the odd working JRT that likes strange dogs and tolerates the rude in your face types. Its not the norm though. I know of MANY well bred corgis, and you talk to the owners and breeders and they will tell you that they are not normally the type to take an insult from another dog, nor back down. And they ARE as likely (if they are working bred) to stalk your livestock if not trained not to as an aussie or a heeler.

Any good herding bred dog is the same. Now if you get them from show lines where its less likely they have the drive they should then you might have a greater chance of getting lucky. Unless the OP is trying to go with an adult though its not likely a breeder is going to sell a herding breed of dog to someone with APBTs.

gardenofsimple22
Jul. 13, 2010, 11:34 PM
which brings us back the OP- three dogs, count them, THREE, whom the OP has *failed* to socialize and train such that she? feels she can take them around and about in public. So she gives up on them, and decides to get another dog. What would YOU predict will happen with the next dog, regardless of breed?

NOT THE SITUATION AT ALL BTW.

i have 3 dogs that CAN go out in public but I've made the choice not to take out because of the amount of ... public scorn? scrutiny? i'm sorry i cant figure out the word im looking for ... but I'm trying to do what i feel is best for the breed in general... my dogs are NOT touchy feely dogs. . . with people outside of my home. I don't mind this. and it's not becuase i did not train them. truth be told, they have each been in an intensive training class. . . not the group petsmart stuff but a one on one with myself and the trainer for anywhere from 3-6 months depending on the dog... and for that matter they encountered all types of dogs and people at his facility.

my female is NOT a monster, but has some issues that we are well aware of. it's controllable....wait, scratch that- MANAGEABLE. I've brought the other two into the house and had the mentioned fosters and didn't have the massive attack that you are all so happy to predict. it's management. yes, im aware that they can get into a fight at any given moment. but are my dogs going to just randomly lunge across the room at eachother... doubtful. same goes for a puppy. will i leave a 4 lb puppy in the room with 3 pit bulls?

NO.

do i even leave them in the room alone together?

NO.

my god, All i asked for was some recommendation on breeds, not a point by point analysis of my ability to care for my dogs. thank god there are some pit bull people who get it.

bits619
Jul. 13, 2010, 11:35 PM
While the OP wants a purebred, I can't help but gush about my schnauzer/poodle cross. At 30lbs, he's over their limit but that 10lbs extra really makes for a sturdier dog, IMO. Plus, he's *very* trainable!
Bostons are hardy little dogs, too, but I'd be wary of braccocephalic breeds in the Georgia summers, especially if you intend for them to be outdoors for long periods.
I'd recommend a small herding breed, provided you plan to spend hours exercising the neuroses out of it. ;) From day 1, never allow the ankle nipping or herding behaviors. Sure, it's beyond cute for a 10 week old Aussie fluff-bucket to rip and race around a group of ppl, tying to contain them, but entirely un-cute only a few months later!! (Again, I ignore your 20lb limit and mention aussies.... ours is full-sized but small at 35lbs)

I'd pick a female (or whichever sex you said you prefered) directly from the litter if possible. I'd go submissive and fairly sensitive to corrections (heck, i'd pick that no matter what!). See how much it freaks out (or doesnt!) when you hold it belly up on your lap, away from other dogs and near them. And sensitive to corrections doesn't mean overly reactive- i'd want one that recovered well from a spook (stomp or drop something) and didn't immediately run to littermates for safety. There IS such a thing as confident and submissive (so many people say confidence = dominance, but that's not always true)
I always feel a little wary of breeders who insist on picking the puppy for you, but that's just because of my personal dog experience (right now i have more dogs in my living room than the average person will own in their lifetime. Not to mention the ones in the 'dog room'!!).
Good luck and keep us updated!!

7HL
Jul. 13, 2010, 11:44 PM
We love our Toller (Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever). Extremely friendly,smart and energetic dogs. She been out with our horses and they all a look at her like she's a small horse. Of course she wonders who the big dogs are.

gardenofsimple22
Jul. 13, 2010, 11:46 PM
I love the beagle suggestion... honestly i sortof FORGOT they existed!

My fiance really wanted a basset hound, but they are a bit too big for me ( and i was worried about them keeping up with our lifestyle honestly...alot of the ones i saw were bowlegged and sortof looked uncomfortable)

I will need to check out a little bit more to see how responsive they are to remote training devices, but i suspect that like the pitties there will be some behaviors ( tracking) that i will not be able to train out of them . . . so i worry a bit about roaming when we're out at the barn, however my dogs all know to turn back to the house when they hear their 'beepers' go off.

thank you to those who continue to stay on topic and non- judgmental . :rolleyes:

wendy
Jul. 14, 2010, 11:24 AM
i have 3 dogs that CAN go out in public but I've made the choice not to take out because of the amount of ... public scorn? scrutiny? i'm sorry i cant figure out the word im looking for ... but I'm trying to do what i feel is best for the breed in general... my dogs are NOT touchy feely dogs. . . with people outside of my home. I don't mind this.

I still don't get it. I think it's bad-ownership to just leave dogs at home, even if by some miracle you're capable of properly exercising them at home. Dogs love to go places, need to go out and see the world on regular walks at the very very least. Especially you say they are high-drive working dogs- don't they need work to do? on-going socialization? I have only ever owned ONE "touchy feely" dog in my life and that's never stopped me from taking dogs out on daily walks, to dog shows, to horse shows, etc. I just tell people that no, they may NOT pet the dog, and please get their dog out of my dog's face.
I would never take any dog, no matter what the breed, to a dog park and let it loose, or take it to the barn and let it run loose without being under my constant direct supervision.

I gather you're looking for a small, portable dog with a "friendly" "easy" reputation? try a pug. Or a cavalier. Or a minature poodle. Stay far away from the terriers and the herding dogs and the hounds and the hunting dogs, all of which may give you problems in this endeavor.

lcw579
Jul. 14, 2010, 12:48 PM
We love our Toller (Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever). Extremely friendly,smart and energetic dogs. She been out with our horses and they all a look at her like she's a small horse. Of course she wonders who the big dogs are.

Love the picture! My rescue mutt looks just like a Toller - which I had never heard of before people asked if that's what he is. He's great around the horses too.

NeedsAdvil
Jul. 14, 2010, 01:00 PM
A friend of mine has a pug that goes to the barn with her. That dog is great w/ the horses, very sturdy, and has trail ridden with us for several miles with no problems. The only issue (and would probably be an issue with many breeds) is that she is not very tolerant to extreme heat or cold. On days that it's too hot, she stays in a nice shady stall with a fan and water while we ride. She is a great dog because she has no tendency to wander off, she wants to be w/ the people and horses so once she learned to stay out of the pastures and keep her distance from the horses, she has been fabulous.

Rubyfree
Jul. 14, 2010, 01:07 PM
I still don't get it. I think it's bad-ownership to just leave dogs at home, even if by some miracle you're capable of properly exercising them at home. Dogs love to go places, need to go out and see the world on regular walks at the very very least. Especially you say they are high-drive working dogs- don't they need work to do? on-going socialization? I have only ever owned ONE "touchy feely" dog in my life and that's never stopped me from taking dogs out on daily walks, to dog shows, to horse shows, etc. I just tell people that no, they may NOT pet the dog, and please get their dog out of my dog's face.
I would never take any dog, no matter what the breed, to a dog park and let it loose, or take it to the barn and let it run loose without being under my constant direct supervision.

I gather you're looking for a small, portable dog with a "friendly" "easy" reputation? try a pug. Or a cavalier. Or a minature poodle. Stay far away from the terriers and the herding dogs and the hounds and the hunting dogs, all of which may give you problems in this endeavor.


How is it bad ownership to leave the dogs at home if she's concerned that their behavior will contribute to an already shoddy reputation?

My old rottie was a go-everywhere-do-everything with me sort of dog, but let me tell ya- it was a lot of energy and investment to talk to & educate folks out in the wider world about her good nature. I WANTED people to pet her and not be frightened because I wanted her to be a good ambassador for her breed, and she was. I usually enjoyed the opportunities presented. But there were times it was easier to leave her at home. Times when I wasn't feeling social or friendly. Like it or not, every time a dog or ill-reputed breeding goes out in public they are contributing to the breed legacy, good or bad. That one time you say "No, you may not pet my dog", which is certainly your right, will get passed through social groups like a game of telephone until the dog was a snarling rabid beast tearing your arm out of the socket in it's desperation to eat a baby. I still meet people who remember my rottie and who have positive feelings about the breed just because of her. Is it logical? No. But it's a good thing.

If someone is not up to the labor of love involved in playing breed ambassador, there is no harm in leaving the pups at home. They don't really care if you go to the grocery store without them.

My current dog does not go out in public. He's a great dane, and people tend to have very positive impressions of them. That's super, but it also means that folks tend to pet first and ask questions later. He's usually very stable but has moments of sheer idiocy that could hurt an unprepared individual. To protect him and the general public, he stays home. He's perfectly happy.

You have to pick your battles.

wendy
Jul. 14, 2010, 01:53 PM
If someone is not up to the labor of love involved in playing breed ambassador, there is no harm in leaving the pups at home. They don't really care if you go to the grocery store without them.


I'm not talking about grocery store runs. I'm talking about taking care of the DOG properly. Dogs need daily exercise. Dogs need to go out and sniff and visit the world. I personally live on a fairly large property, and there is NO WAY the dogs I own, even the lazy old great dane, could be sufficiently exercised, socialized, and mentally entertained without taking them off the property on a regular basis. Your basic pet dog is not getting sufficient exercise to stay healthy if you aren't making him move at a steady trot for at least 30 minutes three times a week. And that is VERY low amount of exercise for a dog. Most dogs cooped up a home are bored, unhealthy, possibly fat, under-socialized critters. It's not fair, it's not good dog ownership, to just toss em at home and ignore them. Especially some kind of high-drive breed. I suppose there are exceptions, and properties, where these generalizations don't apply- for example, a working stock dog who works the stock daily may be just fine never leaving the property.
I DO know that I don't want to own a dog I can't take with me when I want to. In order to do this you have to take the dog out in public. A lot. Especially while the dog is young, but throughout the dog's life or the skills get rusty. The OP claims she tried hard, and took each dog what, a few months of private training? I think that's kind of a very low effort myself. My dogs go to group class from a very early age so they can learn how to ignore other dogs; and we train, train, train and socialize DAILY for at least the first three years of the dog's life.
I don't understand the idea of being a "breed ambassador"; maybe that's something to do with being the owner of a breed under attack by the media right now. I do understand that one can end up by accident with one dog who has problems; maybe two, ok, could happen. When you say you have three dogs you're ashamed to show to the world um well.

jazzrider
Jul. 14, 2010, 03:45 PM
I'm going to give a plug for the Cairn Terrier (like Toto, from the Wizard of Oz). Sturdy little happy dogs, not too fancy looking, very curious and intelligent -- if you can survive their evil puppy stage and train them right (they do need to be socialized when they're young), they're amazing dogs. We've had three, RIP all of them.

We now have two big, not so bright hound mixes. Awesome dogs, far less maintenance required than the terriers. Great farm dogs -- but we don't take them places. Sure -- we take them hiking, walking on trails, they love that. But a horse show? A stroll in a cute little town? An event? They really aren't interested, and get a bit unsettled by it all.

Our last Cairn Abby we rescued at 9 years old. Around the house she was a lazy dog, a totally pampered Daddy's girl. She ruled the other two, and tolerated me. But take her to a horse show or Middleburg, and even at 15 yrs. she had the sashay and pep of a 2 year old. She loved the attention, the activity. She was an incredible socializer. I once had a friend get a little upset at a horse show because people were fussing more over Abby than her horse. :) Our house is just a little empty now without a Cairn -- we've been married for 20 years and this past year is our first time without one.

Check out the breed. They can be great dogs.

shakeytails
Jul. 14, 2010, 05:13 PM
I still don't get it. I think it's bad-ownership to just leave dogs at home....

Why? And where exactly am I going to take them? It's too hot most of the year to take them anywhere that they'll have to stay in the car/truck, and of course they're not allowed in stores or restaurants. I don't take them to my trainer's because her boxers are obnoxious and my dogs don't like them. I don't take them to horse shows because I'm busy with horses and don't have time to be sure the dogs are safe- I think they're happier staying home in the AC than being cooped up in an ex-pen at a horse show. Other than that I don't go anywhere. One of the Corgis goes to the feed mill and a couple of friends houses, but that's about it. They get plenty of exercise at home- they help feed and clean stalls, chase frogs into the pond, and lately they've been trying to kill the woodchucks by the hay barn. The Pyrenees patrols the farm all night long, and before our neighbors moved, she had 4 small children that she attended to daily that wore her out. There's almost always one of us at home so it's not like they spend most of their days alone.

In_
Jul. 14, 2010, 05:22 PM
I have spent copious amounts of time with 2 beagles in two different households- one beagle who you COULD call off a scent, although she'd give you a dirty look when she returned to you. The owners had used a small electronic collar during her formative years to reinforce the training when she was not one a leash. The other you could not get off a scent - but she had not had much training in general. Naturally sweet and well-behaved in the house so the owners did not care what she did outside.

Just like children I suppose. Same species, but very different minds!

7HL
Jul. 14, 2010, 06:11 PM
Love the picture! My rescue mutt looks just like a Toller - which I had never heard of before people asked if that's what he is. He's great around the horses too.

Maybe...take a look at youtube. Lots of videos on Tollers.

One characteristic is their scream...

"Toller Scream"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0v2pjbgGK4

Oh, they love the water!

bits619
Jul. 14, 2010, 07:17 PM
There's a Toller in my extended family and the dog would make a great farm dog. Ball-driven and very, very trainable with it! Also much more compact than one would think.

Many of our dogs don't go out and 'see the world' off the farm, but they certainly have a fulfilling life. Lots of dog and human visitors (beyond other fosters coming and going), individual and group training sessions almost daily... Oh and can I mention the Chuck-it?? That thing is a sanity-saver. If the dogs don't get Mommy and Me dates out, they can still lead a pretty nice life. Much nicer than the COUNTLESS dogs we see loitering along the country roads here covered in ticks, scars, and mange, eating roadkill while almost becoming it themselves. With owners who think it's (yes I quote) "NATURAL and KIND" for a dog to roam free along the roadside!!
OP, i fully understand what you're saying when you leave your pitties at home often. You want a dog that you can more easily, more comfortably, bring to the barn. You're not dumping your dogs at the pound or on a stranger's property in order to free up some space, you're willing to add to your pack- and I can tell you're a mindful owner who is more than willing to put in the effort/education BEFORE you get seduced by the too-cute puppies to think clearly ;)
the website dogbreedinfo.com is fun to browse. (I personally am obsessed with THIS monstrosity... http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images23/PumiDog8MonthsPurebredErzsi.jpg a Pumi!!! Cracks me up every time i see a picture of one...)

Aven
Jul. 14, 2010, 07:38 PM
For those who like tollers.. visit Ontario. Particularly an ontario agility trial. That toller scream can be a bit ubiqutos lol. They can out number the BC at a trial no problem.

They are very popular agility dogs as they are drivey as all get out but are a change from a BC.

lcw579
Jul. 15, 2010, 01:19 AM
Darn - my speakers decided not to work tonight! I'll have to listen to the scream tomorrow.

I forgot but if you look at my profile pic - rescue mutt is my picture. He does look a lot like a Toller but is shorter.

Bravestrom
Jul. 15, 2010, 09:29 AM
well good luck in your search - can't help you with suggestions as we only have big dogs, bernese and great danes.

But my friend breeds weymereiners - not sure how that is spelled at all - they are a great dog - she posts as carrerra on here.