How do top farriers get hunters moving their best? UPDATE: Pics on bottom of P.1 [Archive]

slb

Feb. 22, 2004, 07:30 PM

Well, LMH...while what you say is an ideal, I can't agree with that that there is not a different approach for different disciplines. The reason I say this is that hubby lost all the WP show horses in a large barn. He is still requested to trim everything not WP, including halter babies. But, the big kids need to move with little short strides and a natural foot just doesn't promote that...it needs a higher heel. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Another farrier that I know is specifically requested to do Paso Finos....the reason, he has a problem with trimming too close (I often see him in the tack shop buying EZ boots for customers with sore footed horses}. The "ouch" gets that fino gait extra points on the sounding board. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Drafts shown in harness are typcially shod in Scotch shoes. These are very square looking and the foot is allowed to flare to fit it...enchancing the size of the foot (as you noted above) and stretching the lamina so that they walk like they are on hot coals. Looks spiffy in the showring to see those big feet set down and picked up so high, so quickly. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif And, don't get me started on the gaited crowd with pads and stacks. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif So, from a show person's perspective, there are different trims for different diciplines.

But, I really do agree with you....ther shouldn't be a difference, movement should be a natural flowing one that exhibits the horse's potential, not unnaturally limits or enhances it. The best extension and fluid movement comes from a balanced trim as you described.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Plumcreek

Feb. 22, 2004, 09:23 PM

What was said above sounds right. Plus, slightly sore hocks or backs can affect movement without looking "off". I firmly believe that most horses tht jump eventually need a cunean tenectomy to keep hocks sound. No push from the hock, no good front movement. Also, my vet does a side X-ray of the foot with a tack placed at the apex of the frog, then measures the angle of the coffin bone and distance from front of coffin bone to tack to front of hoof in order to make sure the hoof is trimmed so that the coffin bone lands flat. On a gelding that had some foot issues, I kept him in Natural Balance shoes during winter and changed to aluminums only during show season. On a mare that had a slightly high knee/long cannon, I improved leg sweep dramatically changing from front aluminums to racing plates with toe grab ground down. But she never was a great mover to start with - had some knee and needed the least weight possible on her feet. Just some thoughts.

Lord Helpus

Feb. 23, 2004, 03:50 AM

Plumcreek, Ric Redden also does that, only he Silly Putty's the head of a shoeing nail onto the frog --- I would think that sticking a tack into the frog is not the best thing you can do for a horse!

And, as slb pointed out, EVERY discipline who values a certain way of going, shoes horses slightly differently.

Race horses on one end of the spectrum ----> Tennessee Walkers on the other.

I have been trying to get this farrier to keep the toes shorter -- and it is a monthly discussion. He says that he is rasping back to the white line and he cannot go any farther -- but the farrier last winter had his toes significantly shorter.

Can the white line be "moved back"? I know the blood supply to a dog's toenails can be pushed back by frequent toenail clippings which causes the blood supply to recede.

Is there an analogy to this in the horse's foot?

Perhaps I do need a new farrier.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

[This message was edited by Lord Helpus on Feb. 23, 2004 at 10:34 AM.]

LMH

Feb. 23, 2004, 05:00 AM

LH-I think the point both of us are making is yes disciplines prefer different methods of shoeing-but that is what is laming these horses. It is not good work and not good for the horse.

When I said there is no special shoeing what I meant was there shouldn't be. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif IF you mess with the natural balance of a horse foot you are asking for trouble-people do it all day long then wonder why Pooky is having other soundness problems.

A horse doesn't know if he is a hunter, WP horse or dressage horse-and neither does his foot.

A horse will move his best if his foot is balanced period-it may be too long a stride for WP folks or not sweepy enough u/s but it is how that horse should move based on his body.

Now to answer your question http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, yes the white line can be moved back-but whether it SHOULD just depends on where he is now.

The first thing to look at is the angle of his new growth-the angle of the top of his foot just as it comes out of his hairline. If you are concerned about long toes, I would about bet this angle is more upright than the angle of the rest of his hoof. If it is I would bet those toes are getting long AND almost bet the heels are following along.

If this is the case, then the farrier should be able to recognize and start working on backing those toes up.

As always pictures would be fabulous http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Flash44

Feb. 23, 2004, 05:52 AM

I agree that a balanced trim that allows the horse's foot to hit the ground with no discomfort in the foot, leg or elsewhere in the body will do the most for getting the best out of the horse.

Could George possibly be reacting to "winter?" Not the best time of year for feet. My horse's feet are showing the results of a year in wet ground - we have not had a decent dry spell since October 2002. Moisture tends to seep in around the nail holes and through the soles, making feet a wee bit softer and sensitive than normal. Just a thought.

RioTex

Feb. 23, 2004, 06:20 AM

Lord Helpus, not sure if by last winter you mean a year ago, but my farrier's treatment of of Mikey's feet and the treatment he came with are vastly different.

Was that this farrier or the other one? I can say, we are shoeing him much shorter than he when he arrived, although he was perfectly sound and happy with his "old" feet. I was really surprised at the difference the before and after pictures made.

Trinity Hill Farm (http://www.trinityhillfarm.com)

EqTrainer

Feb. 23, 2004, 06:23 AM

Balance, balance, balance.

The problem we have sometimes when horses come to the barn is that they have been purposefully shod incorrectly to enhance some aspect of their movement that the owner or trainer likes. The fact of the matter is, some horses will have more knee action when balanced then people may like to see. If his heels are sore (long toe, underrun heel) he may not like to get his feet off the ground and therefore may be flatter moving in the front. We have also had horses come to us barefoot because they "move better that way" and the truth is that they are just sore and that's why they are "sweepy". What I see is a horse moving tentatively and ouchy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif((((

After getting them balanced and comfortable, you may indeed see some changes, for better or worse depending on your perspective. The best way (albeit not the easiest) to make a mediocre mover a better mover is to *get them really moving over their topline and reaching up and out for the bit*. The more their back and base of the neck comes up, the more room there is for the shoulder to swing through.

I just had a saddlebred in training who trotted like a sewing machine until he was through back to front and *then* you couldn't tell that it was the same horse, the difference was that profound.. remember, inversion (back dropped, rear end out behind) creates knee action. The way some people ride their hunters, to set their heads alone, also will create more front end action then desired.. just because the head is down does not mean the back is up and swinging http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Thinking you probably know all this already, LH, but for those who don't, I wanted to be sure to point out how shoeing is only one part of the puzzle.

Lord Helpus

Feb. 23, 2004, 06:51 AM

Rio Tex,

Yes, this is the same farrier who had been shoeing Mikey since last April...... SIGH..... It is interesting that you have Mikey a lot shorter. How many shoeings did it take for your farrier to get him where he wants with him?

When I bring G in tonight, I will take pictures of his feet. His heels DO look suspiciously underslung. And his toe longer than it should be. I have been having him shod every 4 weeks this winter (and in the winter he used to go 5 - 6 weeks!) because his toe gets long so quickly.

And another horse is now forging terribly -- After shoeing she only can go 2 weeks before she starts forging again.

The farrier insists it is a balanced foot and that he has adjusted the breakover point farther back, so she SHOULD not be forging. But she is.....

This farrier is such a nice guy. And if a shoe comes off, he is there within 24 hours (a BIG plus in my book). If only I can get him shoeing the horses well.

Interestingly enough, the horses not in work, Warren and Bear, seem to have a lovely short, balanced foot. And Bear wears glue ons -- which the man does well.

And a PS: I do know that a horse needs to lift his back and come through from behind to move his best. I have been bringing G back from his winter off, and after a week of easy work I put on the Pessoa rig yesterday to lunge him and get him starting to use his hind end again. I only use it for a short time at first because I am trying to strengthen top line muscles, not make them sore, but I do expect a horse who knows how to come through from behind to be able to do it for the 2 - 3 minutes that he is in the rig. And George STILL did not move like he did a year ago, even in the rig. That was when I realized that we are on the wrong track with his shoeing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

LMH

Feb. 23, 2004, 07:43 AM

LH-the forging and fact that they aren't going as long between trims does sound highly suspicious of long run underslung heels.

Of course you want to make changes gradually to get them back right but a good farrier should be able to correct the toes fairly quickly.

My experience is with shoes the underrun heels can be a bigger bear to fight.

Please do post pics when you get them-be sure to take them ground level (you kind of on your belly on the ground) square on the side so the angles don't distort how the hoof looks. The side view is best for those angle shots but also get a ground level shot head on to be sure there are no side flares as well.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

EqTrainer

Feb. 23, 2004, 08:06 AM

If your farrier is pulling the toe back but not correcting the underrrun heel (by removing what is growing forward, so that the heel is at the widest part of the frog, oversimplified explanation for brevity) then he is actually creating a smaller weight bearing surface rather than a bigger one w/a better breakover http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif the longer this goes on, the more the foot wants to push out in front of the leg. That may explain why he is saying he can't take any more toe off... and why your horses are forging and having to be trimmed so frequently.

sounds like you need Mikey's farrier - whoever/wherever that may be!

Plumcreek

Feb. 23, 2004, 09:06 AM

[ "I would think that sticking a tack into the frog is not the best thing you can do for a horse!"]

LH - Very, very small tack!! Just so you can spot it on the X-ray.

Underslung heels: As stated in posts above, a direct cause of long toes. My vet is researching caudal heel pain using wild horse feet (actual feet off freshly dead horses - the BLM freezes them and sends them to her) and finds that wild horses have much more blood supply to their heels than domestic horses wearing shoes. When she does a soundness exam, she wants to see our horses landing very slightly heel first when they move. Horses that land toe first generally have heels with little blood supply, contracted and underslung.

I agree about the long toe - good mover mystique. I used to ask for long toes; now I want balane. My vet says that horses will move longer and better on feet that don't hurt. Pretty basic, but you sure see a lot of wierd looking feet on show horses.

Flash44

Feb. 23, 2004, 09:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Plumcreek:
My vet says that horses will move longer and better on feet that don't hurt. Pretty basic, but you sure see a lot of wierd looking feet on show horses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto, a horse is not going to reach with his front end if something hurts when his front feet hit the ground.

RioTex

Feb. 23, 2004, 10:35 AM

I'll take pictures tonight. We just got re-shod last week. I was surprised at how much my guy took off the first shoeing. I thought it would take longer to make an adjustment (if he decided too). They looked very long to me when he arrived and I knew that you had just had him done before he came down.

One thing I have never had trouble with (with my current farrier) is having them cut too short. He is either good or lucky and my old Adult horse was tough. Every time I had to have a shoe tacked back on (by someone else), he blew an abscess. So I was not worried about him taking off too much.

It is not something I know much about and when I have a problem, I have the vet and farrier work it out, but Mikey has some of the best TB feet I have ever met.

Trinity Hill Farm (http://www.trinityhillfarm.com)

[This message was edited by RioTex on Feb. 23, 2004 at 03:22 PM.]

Lookout

Feb. 23, 2004, 11:21 AM

Plumcreek can you share any more about your vet's very interesting sounding project? Is this personal or is there an institution involved? How did they get the BLM to agree to do this? Any preliminary reports yet, if not what plans are there to publish? Thanks.

LMH

Feb. 23, 2004, 12:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Plumcreek:

Underslung heels: As stated in posts above, a direct cause of long toes. My vet is researching caudal heel pain using wild horse feet (actual feet off freshly dead horses - the BLM freezes them and sends them to her) and finds that wild horses have much more blood supply to their heels than domestic horses wearing shoes. When she does a soundness exam, she wants to see our horses landing very slightly heel first when they move. Horses that land toe first generally have heels with little blood supply, contracted and underslung.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I may be missing something here but I thought that those that have studied wild horse feet have already established this as true? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

slb

Feb. 23, 2004, 02:01 PM

Yes, but another prespective doesn't hurt. Everyone has their view and the more views that support each other the better. This vet may also want to have a comparison for work with domestic horses...I think that it helps to better diagnose what is wrong and how to correct it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Lord Helpus

Feb. 23, 2004, 02:39 PM

I am so embarrassed.

Looking at pictures of George's feet, I wanted to cry! How could I have let them get this bad?

I almost didn't post them, but I figured that others may learn from my mistake if nothing else.

Now, where do I go from here?

Sniff, sniff.

POOR George!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

LMH

Feb. 23, 2004, 03:06 PM

Fear not LH! The first step is recognizing a problem needs to be corrected and you have done that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

OK-what I see...Both heels are certainly underrun-and the way the shoe sits in my opinion is only going to encourage that poor direction of growth...his heels MUST be shortened and brought back towards the heel bulbs.

In doing so, the length of heel will be reduced which is a good thing.

His toes are running forward as well-do you see on the black foot up at the hairline where the new growth ring is? See how it is a steeper angle than the rest of the hoof? That steeper angle up top is the angle his foot should be. In essence his toe is flaring forward.

This flare causes a weakness in the hoof structure as a whole and really needs to be corrected.

Now the soles support that same picture-Both heels appear to be contracted-the right side pictures is worse than the left-but both need a wider frog.

I would also say his breakover is too far forward-which is why he is probably not moving as well-correcting the heel and toe will improve his movement AND make sure he stays sound for years to come.

The good news he isn't by a longshot the worst feet in the world-actually he looks pretty darn typical of the hunters out there.

Solution-of course the fastest way (imho) to correct feet like this is to barefoot them but I am sure that is not the option you want. A competent farrier could help you-but if your current farrier doesn't see the trouble with these feet then he needs to be thanked and sent on his way.

Don't be ashamed-just know it needs to be fixed http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Lord Helpus

Feb. 23, 2004, 04:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:

OK-what I see...Both heels are certainly underrun-and the way the shoe sits in my opinion is only going to encourage that poor direction of growth...his heels MUST be shortened and brought back towards the heel bulbs.

In doing so, the length of heel will be reduced which is a good thing.

His toes are running forward as well-do you see on the black foot up at the hairline where the new growth ring is? See how it is a steeper angle than the rest of the hoof? That steeper angle up top is the angle his foot should be. In essence his toe is flaring forward.

Now the soles support that same picture-Both heels appear to be contracted-the right side pictures is worse than the left-but both need a wider frog.

I would also say his breakover is too far forward-which is why he is probably not moving as well-correcting the heel and toe will improve his movement AND make sure he stays sound for years to come.

The good news he isn't by a longshot the worst feet in the world-actually he looks pretty darn typical of the hunters out there.

Solution-of course the fastest way (imho) to correct feet like this is to barefoot them but I am sure that is not the option you want. A competent farrier could help you-but if your current farrier doesn't see the trouble with these feet then he needs to be thanked and sent on his way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK -- to make sure I get the gist of what you are saying, I need to paraphrase it as I understand it:

1. I am not a complete dodo, but verging on it. There may yet be hope for me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

2. I need to tell the farrier to lower the heel (is that what you mean by "shorten the heel"?) AND shorten the toe. QUESTION: At normal hoof growth, how many shoeings should it take to get his foot back underneath him? And do we lower the heel at each shoeing? Won't that make him look like a racehorse, with no heel?

3. Widening his frog --- How does one widen a horse's frog? --- Ever since I got George 2 years ago, his right foot has been narrower than his left. But I do not recall his frog looking almost atrophied.... I can see that barefoot would spread the heels, but that is not an option for me. I have someone coming to look at him in 2 - 3 weeks. So the shoeing next week is a very important one to get headed in the right direction.

Gosh, this forum is great!

Winter is terrible -- It is so cold when I bring in horses, that I pick feet out and then feed as fast as possible and get out of the barn and back inot the warm house. I do not LOOK at the feet I am picking out. No stones/no thrush and I am happy...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

LMH

Feb. 23, 2004, 04:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:

OK-what I see...Both heels are certainly underrun-and the way the shoe sits in my opinion is only going to encourage that poor direction of growth...his heels MUST be shortened and brought back towards the heel bulbs.

In doing so, the length of heel will be reduced which is a good thing.

His toes are running forward as well-do you see on the black foot up at the hairline where the new growth ring is? See how it is a steeper angle than the rest of the hoof? That steeper angle up top is the angle his foot should be. In essence his toe is flaring forward.

Now the soles support that same picture-Both heels appear to be contracted-the right side pictures is worse than the left-but both need a wider frog.

I would also say his breakover is too far forward-which is why he is probably not moving as well-correcting the heel and toe will improve his movement AND make sure he stays sound for years to come.

The good news he isn't by a longshot the worst feet in the world-actually he looks pretty darn typical of the hunters out there.

Solution-of course the fastest way (imho) to correct feet like this is to barefoot them but I am sure that is not the option you want. A competent farrier could help you-but if your current farrier doesn't see the trouble with these feet then he needs to be thanked and sent on his way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK -- to make sure I get the gist of what you are saying, I need to paraphrase it as I understand it:

1. I am not a complete dodo, but verging on it. There may yet be hope for me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

there is ALWAYS hope! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

2. I need to tell the farrier to lower the heel (is that what you mean by "shorten the heel"?) AND shorten the toe. QUESTION: At normal hoof growth, how many shoeings should it take to get his foot back underneath him? And do we lower the heel at each shoeing? Won't that make him look like a racehorse, with no heel?

when I say shorten the heel, underrun heels are actually heels that have grown long and forward. Let me see if I can explain how to bring them back where they should be-when you look at a solar shot the heels will be folded or running forwar-they need to be cut or rasped to find the heel bar triangle. In the seat of corn you farrier "should" be able to find the live sole plain. The heels are then lowered to just a scooch above this plain-this is not going to be done overnight. Actually if you go to http://www.ironfreehoof.com Paige has some great pictures of underrun heels and pictures of what the sold should look like.

I can't tell you (hopefully someone else can) how much he can do at each showing and how long it will take. I feel it goes faster when barefoot as once they start running, shoeing can often promote them to run further-slb can perhaps comment how Natural Balance takes care of this WITH shoes.

NO he will not look like a race horse-again the myth is race horses have NO heels when in fact they are often just longer more underrun than what you have-in other words, this left unattended might in fact look like race horse heels

3. Widening his frog --- How does one widen a horse's frog? --- Ever since I got George 2 years ago, his right foot has been narrower than his left. But I do not recall his frog looking almost atrophied.... I can see that barefoot would spread the heels, but that is not an option for me. I have someone coming to look at him in 2 - 3 weeks. So the shoeing next week is a very important one to get headed in the right direction.

it might be that one foot will always look narrower than the other-it might be something that developed early on and won't be corrected totally now if ever. Again, slb might be able to direct you to shoeing through Natural Balance that can help...I am just not able to help with that area.

Gosh, this forum is great!

Winter is terrible -- It is so cold when I bring in horses, that I pick feet out and then feed as fast as possible and get out of the barn and back inot the warm house. I do not LOOK at the feet I am picking out. No stones/no thrush and I am happy...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Plumcreek

Feb. 23, 2004, 07:09 PM

Lookout - My vet has established a foundation to do the study. I will see if they have a website. LMH - yes, I know there have been other wild horse hoof studies. I believe her emphasis is to learn how to get domestic shod hooves to have some of the healthier aspects of the wild horses' feet.

LH - photo of George's feet - I have been lucky to have had good farriers, so all I know is I have never seen that small a shoe on a foot that size. I am used to seeing the ends of the shoe out behind further and supporting the heel bulbs. I am not any kind of expert, but it sure looks wrong. Sounds like there are some very knowlegable people here.

Txfarrier11

Feb. 23, 2004, 10:54 PM

I'll try to adress your question and then offer my ideas (for what they are worth) on your specific horse. If by "best"you mean what a trainer or judge wants to see, they want a Hunter to move with a good, consistant movement because there are many steps in the Hunter ring. If you count the strides in the 3'-6" fence class, there are approximately 168 strides in a fairly good sized arena. Generally the strides are set at 13 or 14 feet outdoors and for 12 1/2 feet indoors though it may vary. So if you have a horse thats reduced to an 11 foot stride due to being sore footed you are at a disadvantge. One of the first things I adress when shoeing a Hunter is any high/low syndrome. If a horse is clumping along on uneven fronts hes not going to present a pretty picture. You want the feet hitting the ground level. Although everybody seems to think the front end is where the balance is, I havent seen a front wheel drive horse yet. You can help a Hunter most by balancing the back end. You will get the motion going and lengthen his stride through his back end. A big problem in these horses is brushing their ankles behind, usualy not hard enough to be noticable but enough to make them sore, sore enough to shorten their stride 6" or more. If most of the horses are taking a 13 foot stride and yours is taking a 12 1/2 hes going to have to take seven extra strides to complete the course. The trainers almost invariably request aluminum shoes to help produce the desirable low, sweeping stride. I hate aluminum shoes and wouldnt use them at all if I was in charge but I've discovered that Farriers that try to dictate to the trainers how the horse is shod often find themselves driving a Porta-John truck on weekends to make ends meet . Aluminum shoes are simply terrible for a horses feet so what I do to get around the problems is, every other shoeing or so, I take a steel shoe and hot fit it to the foot prior to installing the aluminum shoe. This seals and toughens the foot and helps to counteract the damage caused by the aluminum. I customarily shoe most everything I shoe with a rolled or rocker toe because I feel this more closely aproximates the way a horses foot was intented to work. In a Hunter this is out, O-U-T, out. "Too much knee" So the horse gets shod with a to the toe, perimeter fit shoe no matter what he might be more comfortable in. The trainer wants to keep his job, the lady in tight britches wants to win and the Farrier wants to get paid. It seems like somebody should be concerned that the horses useful life is shortened but I dont know exactly who it should be. My rationale is " Hey, I'm only following orders" , I mean, that excuse worked great for the Nazis, right? Lord Helpus, I notice your horse has one of the nicest sets of underslung heels that I've had the privledge to view in ,um, 3-4 days now. I see heels like this all too often in my practice. It would be unprofessional of me to criteque another Farriers work so let me point out several things I would adress if I was shoeing the animal. If you will look at the angle of the hoof from the cornary for about a quarter of the way down you will see that it takes off in a different direction from there downward. The angle of the top quarter of the hoof reflects the attitude of the coffin bone (P3) within the hoof capsule. If you draw an imaginary line down dorsal hoof wall, following the angle of the upper quarter, extending through the sole of the foot, you will see where the toe should actualy be. The point of breakover should be , IMO, 3/8" to 1/2 " behind that point. I would shoe the horse with the toe set back to somewhere near that point, leaving the overlong toe sticking out past the toe of the shoe, beveled on a 45 degree angle. I notice that the Farrier has filled all 8 nail holes. Its pretty well accepted that nails behind the wings of the P3, the widest point of the foot, contribute to restriction of the foot and contracted heels. This should be adressed. You will notice that tha angle of the heel is much steeper than the angle of the toe and the hairline is dipping down toward the ground, this is a physical effect of having no support beneath that area of the foot. This foot would be properly fitted, I believe, with a shoe that extends about half way between the bulb of the heel and the point where the shoe hes wearing now stops. Drop an imaginary plumb line down through the horses cannon bone and mark that spot on the ground. Draw chalk lines(imaginary) out to the side from the toe and heel of the shoe he is wearing now. Now draw chalklines out from a shoe set back to the point I described at the toe and at the heel extended as I've described. See how the base of support has been moved back more under the bony column of the leg? I've found that getting tha base of support under whe mass of the limb is essential to keeping a good foot on a horse. I would most likely shoe this horse with a bar shoe and Equithane semi rigid pour in pad material, floating the heels , making them non weight bearing. The Equithane would apply frog pressure to help with the contraction and crushed heels. I hope this makes sense to you,as its 2:00 AM and I got a sore back, a smashed thumb and need some sleep. If I can be of any help to you , feel free to E Mail me at Txfarrier11@aol, G'nite, Dutch

Lord Helpus

Feb. 24, 2004, 04:01 AM

Dutch,

First of all, THANK YOU for taking the time to write such a detailed analysis of George's foot problems!

I am going to maky a copy of your post, removing any identifying words, so you are safe (but I am not), from my farrier's wrath. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I have an appt for reshoeing next Monday. If I can find a new farrier before then, I will cancel the appointment. If I cannot, I will print out an individual picture of each foot, blown up to lifesize and draw the lines on the pictures.

The only thing I may not have him do is the bar shoes. He is a fancy horse and is for sale for a very fancy price. People are flying in to try him in 2 weeks and I do not want to have to explain the use of bar shoes.

But I believe that I can still have the Equithane put in, even without the bar shoe, right? And won't that do 90% of the job that the two together would do?

The one area I will defend this farrier in is the nails. This winter we have had a terrible cycle of freeze/thaw. And when it thawed, it rained. The ground has, every couple of days, gone from wet (and MUCKY!) to frozen hard with big suckholes imprinted in it.

So, shoes have come off, with regularity (I would say that, of the 3 horses in nail ons, each has lost 2 shoes this winter. the one with glue ons has been just fine!) I think that the farrier has gone to so many nails in desperation, since I was surprised to see so many and I know it is not his normal habit.

But, everythig else he gets a failing grade on. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

Two Toofs

Feb. 24, 2004, 04:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:

The one area I will defend this farrier in is the nails. This winter we have had a terrible cycle of freeze/thaw. And when it thawed, it rained. The ground has, every couple of days, gone from wet (and MUCKY!) to frozen hard with big suckholes imprinted in it.

So, shoes have come off, with regularity (I would say that, of the 3 horses in nail ons, each has lost 2 shoes this winter. the one with glue ons has been just fine!) I think that the farrier has gone to so many nails in desperation, since I was surprised to see so many and I know it is not his normal habit.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even if the nails are not normal, they are doing nothing to help the condition, probably just exacerbating it. Nails should never be that far back in the shoe. If there are problems with losing shoes, it's most likely a problem in the application of the shoes. The one exception can be extremely bad footing conditions (which you may have). They are likely pulling the shoes because they are stumbling around on the frozen ground. Opt for clips or bell boots before putting nails back that far. Otherwise, it's a better option to keep the horses in out of that type of footing (unfortunately) rather than nail a shoe like that on a horse that already has some problems. The suction from mud really isn't enough to pull a well-placed shoe off a horses foot. To give you some sort of comparison, my horses have also had the horrible footing problems. The mud is just horrifying here, probably at least 3 months out of the year - it's a never ending battle. However, my horses have lost a total of one shoe combined in over 4 years with this farrier. And we never put nails behind the widest part of the foot.

While I always hesistate to comment on farrier work/hooves from photos, I agree with others. Those heels do need to be cut back and the breakover addressed as well. (Addressing the breakover would likely help a great deal with the shoe loss problem as well.) Shoe size also looks to be an issue.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

horse_poor

Feb. 24, 2004, 04:39 AM

see LHU i TOLD ya he was great http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

i hope he can help your farrier help you get your horses feet where they should be

while i am not an expert-hence why i have dutch-i *think* he put pour ins on a clients horse last week that does not have bar shoes.

molly
**you're not that cute AND you're not that special**
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

www.oasisequestrian.com (http://www.oasisequestrian.com)

LMH

Feb. 24, 2004, 04:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Plumcreek:
Lookout - My vet has established a foundation to do the study. I will see if they have a website. LMH - yes, I know there have been other wild horse hoof studies. I believe her emphasis is to learn how to get domestic shod hooves to have some of the healthier aspects of the wild horses' feet.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very interesting! I hope you post the link to the website.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Txfarrier11

Feb. 24, 2004, 06:17 AM

Lord Helpus, feel free to copy my post, including my name. I'm not afraid of wrath, I thrive on wrath, in fact, wrath is my middle name. (my parents had a wierd sense of humor). If you would like to have your Farrier contact me , feel free to do so. Barshoes would be great but they will queer a sale in a New York minute as they raise the spectre of the "N" word (Navicular). The Equithane will work just as well without the barshoe. I reccomended an egg bar because it would help give him more support. As for the nails, my idea is that I would rather come out and replace a shoe thats doing the horse some good , rather than have one stay on 12 weeks thats not. If your not familar with the Equithane goo, go to their website at www.vettec.com (http://www.vettec.com). Ive been using their products for a few years now and cant imagine doing without them. Good luck

DMK

Feb. 24, 2004, 06:20 AM

LH, the only thing I would add to some fairly good advice you have already received is that IF your horse has an underlying cause of pain, the best farrier in the world will not fix him 100%, just improve an already bad situation!

A horse can get contracted, underrun heels from the farrier, he can get it from being a sore horse and not wanting to put his foot down heel-toe, or the latter can be complicated by the former (and of course, the former can be complicated by the latter!).

So I would just add that in addition to fixing the external, you may need to also address the internal!

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

Lord Helpus

Feb. 24, 2004, 07:34 AM

I LOVE THIS BB!!!!

Thanks to all who have takent he time to comment on my shoeing problem. I have a call into a farrier who gets excellent reviews from people I respect.

Like my old farrier, he has worked with Dr. Ric Redden for a number of years, and so he specializes in fixing problem feet. I just hope he has time to take on my little barn.

I now have a picture with lines drawn all over it. And it MAKES SO MUCH SENSE. To balance his foot, the shoe needs to come back 1/2 - 3/4th of an inch, bringing the center of balance back a good 1/2". I will let the new farrier decide if this shoe is just too small, or if setting it on farther back is the better option.

A friend suggested "rails" shoes? The word souned somthing like that, but I was too stupid to ask what they are.

DMK, fortunately, George has always been a SOUND horse. With crossed fingers, he will continue to be while his feet are getting straightened out.

Again, thank you all. I am still open to comments/suggestions, but I am excited because I feel I am on the right track with all of your great input.

If I can get my scanner working I will post the picture with all the lines drawn on it to see if I have all the information interpreted correctly.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

Plumcreek

Feb. 24, 2004, 08:06 AM

Re: use of wild horse feet to promote better domestic horse feet
Ok, I found the website for Dr. Barbara Page's Equine Wellness Foundation. She works with Gene Ovnichek (sp?) from Montana. I think he is connected to the Natural Balance Shoe???

Website: <A HREF="http://www.equinewellnessfound.org" TARGET=_blank>
www.equinewellnessfound.org (http://www.equinewellnessfound.org</A>)[/url]

BTW - If you look at the above website, the QH stallion that was donated to the foundation to produce revenue through stud fees is a pretty nice horse for producing hunters, if you are looking.

[This message was edited by Plumcreek on Feb. 24, 2004 at 12:20 PM.]

horse_poor

Feb. 24, 2004, 06:47 PM

LHU i hope ya get your boys feet figured out....sucky feet suck http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

molly
**you're not that cute AND you're not that special**
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

www.oasisequestrian.com (http://www.oasisequestrian.com)

jester1113

Feb. 26, 2004, 06:45 AM

LHU - did you get your scanner working? I'm dying to see the pic w/ the lines...

Only connect...

LGW

Feb. 26, 2004, 08:52 AM

Lord Helpus,
Please check your PTs.

Bensmom

Feb. 26, 2004, 12:20 PM

LH -- you have already gotten such good advice here and are ready to tackle the problem that I think has lamed way more of our performance horses than anyone knows yet.

I have a friend with a horse that I can say either developed navicular solely from shoeing with no support under the leg, or if it was going to develop anyway, was made much much worse by his shoeing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I LOVE the equi-pak pour in material, both of my boys have it in their front feet -- one with bar shoes and one that for a long time had it without bars, but is now in a bar shoe.

One question that I have, mostly for Dutch, since he mentioned using an eggbar shoe in this situation. Actually, this has been my question of the week for my farrier and two vets so far http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Why an eggbar instead of a straight bar type shoe? Perhaps I've never seen them used correctly, but all the eggbars I've seen so far have contributed to making the underrun heel problem worse, as in order to fit them so that the horse doesn't step them off, the widest part of the egg can't be at the back of the foot.

I've been really puzzled by this -- a horses front hoof is not egg shaped, so why would an egg shaped shoe be a good answer for working on this problem?

My little beast raced on too long pasterns and very long toe and underrun heels -- and has a bowed tendon on one leg and djd in his other ankle to show for this.

We now have him in this shoe:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/31517240/64404912zhbtRg

that my farrier made for me and he cut his heels and floated them to then encourage them to grow "to the steel" and that has now pretty much happened. Since conformationally, he will probably crush them if the wedge is removed, at this time, I am still mechanically lifting his angles, even though the heel has repaired itself, for the most part.

I understand the reasons that LH doesn't want to use a bar shoe, but *if* you were going to use a bar shoe, why wouldn't you use one like my beast wears rather than an eggbar? I have been struggling with this question for several days now. I just don't understand the physics of the egg shape to the shoe and can't see why something like this isn't better.

Thanks for any enlightenment,

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

jester1113

Feb. 26, 2004, 12:28 PM

Bensmom's post kinda touches on a question that popped into my head this am while re-reading Maximum Hoof Power by Cherry Hill.

Why do the shoes need to extend slightly past the heel to provide support? If the foot is trimmed properly (and barring any pathologies/deformities), why can't the foot as it is properly support the limb?

I can see however why this would be a benefit for underrun heels, but why would the lack of this cause underrun heels in the first place?

Not being anti-shoe (although let's face it, I am http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), but more curious. There's gotta be a reason that I'm not seeing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Only connect...

LMH

Feb. 26, 2004, 12:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jester1113:
Bensmom's post kinda touches on a question that popped into my head this am while re-reading Maximum Hoof Power by Cherry Hill.

Why do the shoes need to extend slightly past the heel to provide support? If the foot is trimmed properly (and barring any pathologies/deformities), why can't the foot _as it is_ properly support the limb?

I can see however why this would be a benefit for underrun heels, but why would the lack of this cause underrun heels in the first place?

Not being anti-shoe (although let's face it, I am http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), but more curious. There's gotta be a reason that I'm not seeing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

_Only connect..._
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me see if I understand...are you saying you DO see why trailers or bars can help support underrun heels? See I think quite the opposite-I think bars or trailers would encourage underrun heels not help...that is the cycle I think alot of horses get in.

To be honest I have found taking away these things (errr barefoot http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) corrects the underrun heel faster. Or at least that is what just happened with my mare. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Bensmom

Feb. 26, 2004, 12:38 PM

I would have to agree that taking away these things (barefoot) would help an underrun heel faster, if you have two things in place:

1. A good trim. Buzz was barefoot when I got him and had terrible long toes and underrun heels, because the walking horse guy (not a shoer or farrier by any means) that had been doing him when he was racing on the bush track had left him that way when they pulled his shoes off, so just being barefoot doesn't help -- it has to be barefoot with a good trim to set you up to grow correctly.

2. A horse that can tolerate being barefoot. In Buzz's case, his long sloping pastern means that even when trimmed correctly, he still doesn't stand under his canon bone. He also has very thin soles and was getting bruised and abcessing repeatedly until we poured him. He will crush his heels down just from the way he is built, even if he is trimmed correctly, so the mechanical lift is necessary to avoid that and to avoid placing too much stress on his ankles and tendons.

But, to answer your question about why the shoe needs to be set back. The hoof grows to meet the steel -- i.e. if you want the heels to end up in the right place under the structures supporting the leg, you can put the shoe out there and hopefully the hoof will grow down to meet the shoe.

It has to do with the loading/stress that is placed on the foot and I'm sure slb can explain it better than I can -- I do know that when we have provided the room for the foot to expand and placed the shoe where I eventually hoped for hoof to be, most of the time the foot has grown to meet it.

Not always, of course. Ben has contracted heels and the only thing that would probably help that would be 6 months barefoot, but he is so tender footed and such a wimp that he probably wouldn't survive without his Nikes. I had him barefoot for a time and it was pretty bad, so we do the best we can in shoes.

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

LMH

Feb. 26, 2004, 01:14 PM

I have a question Bensmom-and am happy to hear thoughts on this because I have no experience with extreme conformationally troubles (like long sloping pasterns).

You mention Bens feet were in bad shape-long toes and flares...so it would likely follow that he had a stretched white line. he is likely flat footed at this point as well.This of course would make him tender barefoot. SO yes I agree barefoot is NOT a solution if the trim is not balanced.

But did you try WITH a good barefoot trim...the only reason I use the icky cliche term is many farriers do not trim a horse properly to be able to maintain barefoot. They often leave the bars or frog to long causing pressure and bruising.

The other thing that comes to mind (and of course this is NOT intended as a slam against you-it was your horse and journey that educated me alot so PLEASE don't take offense)-is does an owner often know if the trim IS balanced?

I think of thread after thread of "I have the world's greatest farrier and MAN can he balance a foot" then the pics follow and http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Again not so much at you-I still can't quite grasp why a pastern angle would prohibit a horse from going barefoot...NOW that this question has come to mind, I must must understand!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ummmm calling slb!!!

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

slb

Feb. 26, 2004, 01:21 PM

Bensmom...I thought you fell off the face of the earth...all these good hoof threads and you weren't here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

You guys are asking some good questions....but I studied http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

LMH...sorry I just can't agree with you that underrun heels can be fixed faster barefoot. The reason is because often the point of breakover is still left too long...it simply can't be placed back far enough without the aid of a set back shoe. POB is key to correcting heel problems. Take the breakover back and the foot follows...the same way it followed the long toe forward. This is where an NB or similar shoe comse in handy...you can place the POB where it needs to be almost everytime on the first shoeing. That, plus taking the heels back has set the foot up for optimal growth almost from the first set. I have seen some very knowlegable trimmers struggle for over a year to get breakover back where they want it...some never achieve it and call it good. This doesn't mean that the shoe has to be left on forever...just until the foot can be correctly trimmed with regard to optimal placement of breakover.

I agree with Bensmom and many farriers also agree that eggbars do little to help, but actually hinder the situation...and for the reason that Bensmom stated...the oval shape of the shoe comes in as it approaches the heel, thus helping to pull the heel in...and forward (goes with in).

Beyond that, the real problem that I see with bar shoes is that they are overdone. When a forward run foot is first encountered, if the farrier cannot get the foot headed in the right direction (and this would have to be pretty severe for this to happen) then, yes there is a need to place a bar shoe of some sort to get the base of support back under the foot.

The foot doesn't actually grow to the shoe...but in a sense it does because when the impact and weight bearing forces are moved back under the horse where they belong, the foot begins to structure itself more correctly and grow downward rather than forward.

Any therapeutic devise....regardless of its nature is like a cast for your broken arm...short term beneficial, long term can be just as damaging as with it. These things should be carefully considered, used until the correction is made and then discarded. Now, the problem is that too many professionals and owners believe in the "power of the shoe"...that the shoe can "fix" and "heal". Well, it can't. It is only a crutch to get by with until the helaing takes place. If the horse "needs" to remain in these devices because the correction is a long time coming (I'm talking over a year or two...some are more difficult than others) then the farrier is relying on the shoe for the "fix" rather than making the corrections they should have addressed.

And, I will say the same for a barefoot horse. I will be the first to say that not all horses can go barefoot, but the many more can than we believe. Generally, the reason for unsoundness barefoot and sound in shoes has more to do with underlying hoof deformities/pathologies that have never been addressed. In many cases, it is heel pain from contraction, overgrown sole/bars, or interior problems such as loss of hoof integrity because of a week white line/laminar junction or deteriorated digital cushion.

Did I address everything? If not just give a yell and I'll give ya more of my 2 cents http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

LMH

Feb. 26, 2004, 01:27 PM

*LMH squinches up face and thinks very hard*

This is going to take a little longer for me to process http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I might have to think after a beer or two and then come up with a suitable well thought out rebuttable.

I am going to think and think and think until I can come up with a good way breakover CAN be brought back far enough barefoot.

You just wait and see! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

slb

Feb. 26, 2004, 01:28 PM

Just ignore the typos...I think you get the meaning http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 26, 2004, 01:29 PM

OK...I'm waiting....its good to think, but don't hurt yourself http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

LMH

Feb. 26, 2004, 01:35 PM

well it is hurting a little bit-but I WILL have an answer...I may have to call on my support team but I will have one. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

jester1113

Feb. 26, 2004, 03:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>To be honest I have found taking away these things (errr barefoot ) corrects the underrun heel faster. Or at least that is what just happened with my mare.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't worry! I haven't gone back to the dark side. Kids are barefoot and doing FINE! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Only connect...

jester1113

Feb. 26, 2004, 03:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I am going to think and think and think until I can come up with a good way breakover CAN be brought back far enough barefoot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please! Freak Mare needs your help! (Not that she isn't doing waaaaay better than I expected, I'm just impatient)

Only connect...

LMH

Feb. 26, 2004, 04:35 PM

just so you know slb-I actually am working on the answer to this and am almost there...of course I can only speak from what I research...I simply did not have time today to purchase 10 ex-race horses to provve my theory! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

oops edited to read from what research I have read...

dang I am so excited about this I can't speak straight!

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[This message was edited by LMH on Feb. 26, 2004 at 09:05 PM.]

slb

Feb. 26, 2004, 04:51 PM

OK...I can hardly wait for this one...I thought we always talked in theory anyway. Do you mind if I call on my support tearm for the ensuing debate http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Lord Helpus

Feb. 26, 2004, 05:28 PM

OOOOhhhhhhhhhhhh, What a FUN thread this has become. I also have a horse whose front feet dish, so he is very flatfooted, and, if he looses a shoe, he hurts so much that he just stands in one place and doesn't move.

I have him in glue ons and they keep him walking around, but I sure would love to find a cheaper way...

I also have a horse with different angles at each end of the pastern bone. Right now the pasterns are quite upright and the foot is short, but still not as upright as the pastern. She is in wedge pads and that does not seem right to me...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

slb

Feb. 26, 2004, 05:34 PM

LH...what is she in wedge pads?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Two Toofs

Feb. 26, 2004, 05:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by slb:
If the horse "needs" to remain in these devices because the correction is a long time coming (I'm talking over a year or two...some are more difficult than others) then the farrier is relying on the shoe for the "fix" rather than making the corrections they should have addressed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to point out the fact that there are always exceptions to any rule... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I have one that has had excellent farrier care for beyond your two year period, an extreme case when I got him and not an easy fix (severely underrun heels for an extended period of time being one problem). The problem with him is that with one foot, the very tiny bit of heel that does grow between settings always ends up crushing back forward.

When he cuts the heel back, we still aren't going in the proper direction. The digital cushion is shot. He made great progress in the first few cycles with this guy, then leveled off. It is agreed all around that his severe case needs additional support (which is why he has leveled off), however he remains shod in plain NBS because he can not tolerate ANYTHING as far as extra support goes for more than a cycle or two, not even the forgiving pour in pads. He's always been one were it was assumed that he had very thin soles, so for that reason (among others) we did baseline films. The films revealed that while his soles are of average thickness, he is very suspect of having severe damage to the impar ligaments that is making it impossible for him to tolerate the pressure of any type of added support.

Don't get me wrong, he moves sound and gets around wonderfully (he's retired anyway). But no one has ever been able to give any feasible suggestions for further treatment. He'd love to have him in eggbars for the reasons you suggest above, but the horse insists on throwing them (he's out 24/7, anything else is not an option). But aside from the bar shoes, he's never pulled a shoe in nearly 5 years - through rain, sleet, snow, muck, mud, hills, the works.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

slb

Feb. 26, 2004, 06:15 PM

Yes, TooToofs...thanks for adding that info. I totally agree...we can only speak in generalities here and those extreme cases are so individualized that it would be very difficult to include them. This is why I say not every horse can go barefoot. The internal parts are just as important as what we assess outside...maybe more so. If the digital cushion is severely damage, if the coffin bone or other bones are remodeled or deteriorated in anyway, then these things all play a part in the amount of soundness and correction that can be achieved.

The impar ligaments are very dense with nerves and it might seem like this could cause a lot of problems if they were damaged. You are very lucky to have a farrier that can keep this horse sound.

I would guess that your horse may have a reverse tilt to the coffin bone...have you noted this on the x-rays?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Bensmom

Feb. 26, 2004, 07:13 PM

LMH wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I have a question Bensmom-and am happy to hear thoughts on this because I have no experience with extreme conformationally troubles (like long sloping pasterns).

You mention Bens feet were in bad shape-long toes and flares...so it would likely follow that he had a stretched white line. he is likely flat footed at this point as well.This of course would make him tender barefoot. SO yes I agree barefoot is NOT a solution if the trim is not balanced.

I promise next time to name my beasts less confusingly http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Buzz is actually the one with the long sloping pasterns, (he's the ex-bush track TB) and he was long toe/low heel when I got him. Not surprisingly, his feet are also pretty flat.

Ben actually is quite upright -- we have been having a semantical discussion (we being me, the vet and the farrier) and have determined that because he does not meet certain criteria (i.e. a broken forward hoof axis, and an angle of more than 55 degrees) he is actually not club footed (as we've described him for years) but rather high/low with small feet and very contracted heels. Both of these boys were sent I believe to further my education. Can I have the next horse with "normal" feet? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

But did you try WITH a good barefoot trim...the only reason I use the icky cliche term is many farriers do not trim a horse properly to be able to maintain barefoot. They often leave the bars or frog to long causing pressure and bruising.

I wish I had some new pics -- I'll try to take them tomorrow, of Buzz's feet and legs. My farrier actually does a pretty good barefoot trim on other horses and I think he could on him. I just wouldn't be able to work him. I think that because of the damage to the right ankle and the really badly bowed left tendon, he must have extra support under his fetlocks in front, or he'll never stay sound in work. So, no. He has not been made barefoot and tested. But, I have good reasons for it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The other thing that comes to mind (and of course this is NOT intended as a slam against you-it was your horse and journey that educated me alot so PLEASE don't take offense)-is does an owner often know if the trim IS balanced?

Well, I can't say for sure that I do, but I think I come pretty close! I've x-rayed both of them, and we are trying to shoe to the coffin bone angle, so I think I have a pretty good handle on that. I'm currently refining my knowledge with the book _No Foot, No Horse_ that has terrific illustrations of the balance that you are trying to acheive.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

slb wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Bensmom...I thought you fell off the face of the earth...all these good hoof threads and you weren't here <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, just getting moved into a different barn and actually riding the darn beast (Ben that is) for a change http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I feel really out of my league when looking at barefoot horses though, since the two I have that are barefoot are retired and pretty easy to do, so my knowledge is so limited in that realm.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I agree with Bensmom and many farriers also agree that eggbars do little to help, but actually hinder the situation...and for the reason that Bensmom stated...the oval shape of the shoe comes in as it approaches the heel, thus helping to pull the heel in...and forward (goes with in). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whew, I feel better now! Actually, my farrier says they will help if they are applied correctly, but that if enough is hung off of the back of the foot, two things will happen -- first the leverage increases (if you haven't also seriously shortened the toe) and causes problems, and second, many horses will just step them off. So farriers set them close and the heel just continues to run forward. Bah. I haven't ever seen a local farrier apply them "correctly" and I don't like them. They still don't make sense in a physics sense to me.

I agree that most corrections should be short term. My farrier would be thrilled if we could take Buzz to less shoe and in fact, he'd be delighted to leave the little sucker barefoot! But, he agrees with me that without the mechanical lift to his heels, his pasterns are at enough of an angle relative to his feet (i.e. you cannot trim his foot to have the correct angle to match his pastern. If you do, he has long toe/no heel -- if you lift the heel though, the pastern angle is corrected and matches the hoof wall angle with a nice short toe)

I know it sounds strange, but all I can tell you is that if you take his wedge shoe off, no matter what you do trim wise, and let him go five weeks, his arthritic ankle starts to have swelling in the joint. I'm not willing to stress that area any more than I have to. This shoeing set up is working for this horse, who many people told me would not ever stay sound in *any* work at all. If he doesn't do some horrid thing to himself in the pasture, (he's the single most accident prone animal I have ever seen) he's been able to stand up to as much work as I've had the time and skill to give him.

He's only 7 -- I don't want him to have to retire at this age if I can help him to stay sound and through a lot of work and research, this shoeing set up seems to work. He doesn't have icky contracted heels and stunningly enough, his feet look pretty good.

We are re-setting him on Tuesday of next week. I'll try to snap some pics while his shoes are off and we'll see what you guys think.

Ben was just reset Monday, and for reasons we've yet to explain, but that we think are related to all of our nasty wet conditions and thrush (which is a nightmare on a horse with contracted heels) he's lame at the moment http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Not much, but sore. I'm trying to draw the soreness out of his heels and to treat the areas that I have probably blistered with thrush medicine down in the clefts of his contracted heels.

This thread made me think, though. Now that the condition that made us put bars on his shoes seems better (he strained an annular ligament last year) we are going to take his bars off and see if his heels will open up some. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

Two Toofs

Feb. 27, 2004, 02:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by slb:
You are very lucky to have a farrier that can keep this horse sound.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boy, you don't have to tell me that! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif He is irreplaceable. I don't know what I'll ever do if he retires. Luckily, he's got quite a few good years left in him.

I knew he was a keeper when the first time he came out, he worked on the problem horse and he walked off like a champ when he was finished with him. This after spending a good hour getting his history and evaluating his movement. The first time in years that horse walked off sound from being shod. I could have kissed him! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif He also now lands flat (heel first is only a vague fantasy with this horse), although even just that took 2-3 rounds to achieve.

I don't remember any comments about the angle of the coffin bone. I'll ask him next time he's out (as he has the films).

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

LMH

Feb. 27, 2004, 04:27 AM

OK here we go-now to be fair I am taking my response from Jaime...I will be interested to hear what you think.

Also perhaps we are stuck on the word "faster?" I haven't really found out how "long" it would take, but from some of the notes, it appears, as argued with NB shoes, that with this trim the response can be almost immmediate.

According to the wild horse trim, you want to trim the horse for "natural toe angle", defined as the angle of new growth just below the hairline...I can go into more detail here but will assume that makes sense to you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You will agree the natural angle of heel growth is lower than the natural angle of toe growth...with that in mind the effect of the trim is to move the groung bearing surface of the heel buttresses under the capsule where they belong and by doing so,will elevate the heel angle of growth...in other words move heels back by shortening, steepen angle of heel-not run under anymore.

In other words run under heels are just heels that have grown too long--so once trimmed back where they belong and once the toe is trimmed back where it belongs, problem solved.

Of course this is quite simplified but let's start with this idea and take it from there.

Bear in mind also from a previous disccusion about rocker vs. roll...that with this trim and a proper mustang roll, in fact you ARE moving POB back where it should be.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Lord Helpus

Feb. 27, 2004, 04:51 AM

I want to take a slight left hand turn here and ask about practical matters:

I realize that the cost of shoeing differs widely from area to area. So my first question is:

If you have a farrier who is second only unto God (as Ben's Mom and Two Toofs seem to have found), does he necessarily charge more than the average rate in your area?

Also, do others recognize his expertise, so that he is so busy that he is hard to schedule, or to get out if you lose a shoe?

Next question: Do shoes put on by these good farriers balance a foot so well that shoes come off less? I am thinking that George is going to end up with trailers and so he will be much more likely to pull a shoe, even with western horse (no spin) bell boots, or two pairs of bellboots on each front hoof.

I am worried that (1) I will be paying a lot more for shoes that are (2) put on by a farrier who is busy and hard to get out in the case of (3) an inevitably lost shoe, due to the trailers he will want to put on.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

Bensmom

Feb. 27, 2004, 06:18 AM

LH -- I am probably not going to be much help, because my farrier seems atypical. I will say, though, that he is wonderful mostly because he will work with me and let me ask questions and is willing to try what the vet and I would like to see done. I am not sure that left totally on his own that their feet would be where they are -- does that make sense? In other words, he's been quite sceptical of some of this stuff, but he reads, studies and attends clinics and we are getting there. He still thinks my boys toes are too short, but has shortened them because I asked and is slowly coming around as they have done well trimmed that way.

Now, I will say he is pretty busy, but expensive he is not. (A reset all the way around is $70, and $30 for the poured pads -- new shoes are $80 all the way around, and $85 for Buzz's and Ben's special hind shoes, because I insisted on paying more) In fact, I frequently pay him more than he would charge because I really appreciate the time and thought he puts into my special cases.

I also appreciate the fact that he will come right away if he can (i.e. he isn't the other side of the county) if we have a lost shoe, or like the other day when Ben showed up a little sore -- he had a mid-day break and came right over to check him out. I think I just got lucky.

There are many things that can be done to make the shoes stay on better, even with shoe hanging out back. I used to lose shoes on one or the other about once a week. This farrier has made some modifications -- i.e. the backs of the shoes have the edges ground down and safed off to make it more likely that the hind foot won't catch it. Also, as I believe Dutch mentioned above, if you also address the hind feet (which is where on Ben we made the most progress with improving his movement) and have him balanced all the way around, he is less likely to pull the shoe.

So, my experience has been that I don't pay more for a farrier that I can't get out and we've lost less shoes. But, I think my farrier may be atypical, so YMMV.

Good luck!

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

RioTex

Feb. 27, 2004, 06:33 AM

Well, not sure about the answer. I know we have some farriers in the area that charge CONSIDERABLY more than mine (who is probably not the cheapest, but is reasonable).

I don't have anything that requires major theraputic shoeing, so I don't know if there really is a difference. What I do know is that my guy shows up when he says he will be there and doesn't put high nails in (knock, knock on wood). I think my horses' feet look good and I had one last year that I truly believe we kept sound because he shod the foot the way it grew (which did not put wierd strain on the suspensory) even though it meant we had two different front feet. I had a shoer at a show give me a very hard time about the foot. The horse was happy, sound, and winning the hack, what was I going to complain about.

Trinity Hill Farm (http://www.trinityhillfarm.com)

slb

Feb. 27, 2004, 10:18 AM

OK LMH...I was pretty much with you until you got to the last part:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Bear in mind also from a previous disccusion about rocker vs. roll...that with this trim and a proper mustang roll, in fact you ARE moving POB back where it should be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found a really good example to work with!

Let's take one of Paige's case studies (#7).
http://www.ironfreehoof.com/case7.html
Look at the pics and read what she said about it. Here is a case where the heels are already trimmed back, the white line is tight, but the WHOLE foot is run forward (underrun).

Would you agree that the breakover point is too far forward? Tell me how this would be addressed by the wild horse trim.

Also, we are not there, perhaps nothing could be done differently if we were to see this first hand....so this is not about critiquing Paige's work...but about (from the pics) addressing the issue through different approaches.

Maybe Lookout or other trimmers might add their take on this and how they would address it. I think it would be very interesting to gain a perspective on different approaches as it may help someone make a decission about which method they might go with if they had a problem similar to this one. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I odn't want to get wrapped up in believing that one approach is better...I'm not sure they are. Just a nice discussion on different approaches to the same problem.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

LMH

Feb. 27, 2004, 10:41 AM

Can I go back and delete that sentence then?? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Lookout

Feb. 27, 2004, 12:40 PM

I would take the heels down further, and further back, to get the frog weightbearing and prevent the heels from running forward. I agree the breakover is too far forward and would bring it back however I think the appearance of that is exacerbated by this oval shaped foot. You can already see in the after picture the new growth coming in at a steeper angle and I would back up to this angle. I think the heel/breakover situation could probably be corrected within 2 months. I think the white line quality has room for improvement which will be helped by backing up the breakover. Also in the last after picture (sorry but I don't know which foot this is), the right side is higher than the left side. It looks like it was already that way in the before and exacerbated in the after. Not to critique the trim, just pointing out that this could be contributing to the heel problem.

slb

Feb. 27, 2004, 12:49 PM

Thanks for your input Lookout...
I think that we all agree on taking the heels back...these could go back a littl, but I don't think much more...same fo rthe white line...needs work, but not bad.

Could you tell us exactly how you would back the toe up?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

LMH

Feb. 27, 2004, 12:51 PM

OK-my gut says yes the breakover is too far forward.

However as you mentioned the foot is trimmed properly for the foot-the toe angle appears correct from the picture, the solar view shows a correct trim for heels and the toe is brought back to the white line.

I would say the trim is correct for this foot as it is. In the same way that a wild horse trim does NOT advocate taking live sole to achieve concavity (due a balanced trim and concavity will occur when the foot is ready), do not make opening cuts to force decontraction (again trim balanced and decontraction will occur), etc then you would not force breakover.

As the foot transforms (think how hooves become wider as the balanced trim takes affect and how decontraction and wider frogs happen as balance takes affect), the breakover will come back when the foot is ready.

A wild horse trim is about having the image of the wild horse in mind and having that as a sort of "goal" however it is equally about respecting the foot you have.

Now we don't have xrays of this foot so perhaps there is something going on inside that makes the foot want to be this way.

So long as the horse is sound (she says it is) and confortable (again she says he is), then this trim is correct for this hoof.

Pete actually has an example of an "ugly" foot as well that was trimmed balanced but didn't falls within the parameters of the "wild horse model"-he continued to trim according to the balancing standards set out by the wild horse model-and actually after his book was published, there is a note saying the foot had started to make changes.

I respect POB as a part of balance but as with other parts of balance-toe angle for example, you don't force the "standard" before the foot is ready.

For example, if the toe is long-say the new growth is at 55 deg but the lower hoof is at 50-you wouldn't lop off the whole to to achieve a complete toe angle of 55 if it meant rasping the toe way inside the white line--rather you would ease the foot back with each trim.

I think if this foot is trimmed often-say keeping the toe to the white line often (maybe weekly) it will speed the process of correction.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Lookout

Feb. 27, 2004, 12:53 PM

I'm not sure exactly what your question is, so I'm not trying to be smart here - I would put the foot on a hoof stand and rasp it, and I would check for symmetry to the coronary band. I would start my rasping fairly high up, sort of like a mustang roll, so the rasping would "last longer" than a vertical cut, which would help the underrun problem and I would not take any toe from the bottom. I might even bevel it, bringing the breakover point further back and preventing the toe from running forward in between rasps. I would instruct the owner to do this at least on a weekly basis.

LMH

Feb. 27, 2004, 12:54 PM

Crud-now that i have read Lookout's post I have to go back and look again!

I am not seeing new growth steeper than the rest of the foot-but if it is, you would try to match the bottom 1/3 of the foot to the new growth IF you can without invading the white line...I just can't see that from the picture.

I also see from the front view that both side walls appear flared-I think address these flares will improve the white line integrity and perhaps promote the growth of a wider foot with a POB further back.

NOW here IS a question for slb and Lookout because this is something I AM having difficulty with-both of you say you would bring the heels back further-what is it on this hoof that says you CAN bo back further..can either of you please describe what you see that would allow this?

My mare needs her heels back and shorter-not as much as this one-I am supposed to keep this in check between trims and am still having difficutly with this.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

LMH

Feb. 27, 2004, 12:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
I'm not sure exactly what your question is, so I'm not trying to be smart here - I would put the foot on a hoof stand and rasp it, and I would check for symmetry to the coronary band. I would start my rasping fairly high up, sort of like a mustang roll, so the rasping would "last longer" than a vertical cut, which would help the underrun problem and I would not take any toe from the bottom. I might even bevel it, bringing the breakover point further back and preventing the toe from running forward in between rasps. I would instruct the owner to do this at least on a weekly basis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I read this correctly-you are addressing matching the bottom angle of the foot to the new growth.

If so I also agree with this.

Also Lookout, in order to back up a toe, do you ever go to or inside the white line-if so have you been able to do this without causing discomfort to the horse? Pete told me he has been able to but does not advise this extreme trim for "amatuers." I respect that but would like hearing another's experience with that.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

edited because I am blonde.

[This message was edited by LMH on Feb. 27, 2004 at 06:09 PM.]

LMH

Feb. 27, 2004, 01:00 PM

Sorry another response to Lookout's statement that the white line could be improved-I agree and if you look at the front views I think the stretching on the sides would correlate to the flares I mentioned earlier.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Lookout

Feb. 27, 2004, 01:47 PM

To bring back the heels I would take them back to the widest part of the frog, they are in front of it right now, and I would do so gradually, just keeping one step ahead of the growth.

I would not match the new growth to the lower part of the foot, rather the other way around - match the lower part to the new growth (as much as possible). The whole angle of the leg has changed, not just the new growth. You can see the pastern has become more upright than in the before picture. The angle is determined from the bottom up. (That is why "long sloping pastern" doesn't really exist (see Bensmom's post), it is determined by the angle of the toe and heel and changes when these change.

As to rasping into the white line yes I have done it but also only in extreme cases. If there is sole at the toe that has not been disturbed and the heels are the right height it really shouldn't make the horse sore. If the heels are too high the toe will be taking too much weight and yes it will make the horse sore. Nevertheless I would not recommend that an amateur do it either.

LMH

Feb. 27, 2004, 02:06 PM

Oops (blushes) I dislexic-ed....I meant match bottom to new growth...

in other words new growth is correct and bottom angle is bad angle...that is what I meant-that is what you are saying?

Also when you say take the heels back to the widest part of the frog--do you mean rasp the heel so it comes down OR do you mean bringing the knife in and, for lack of a better word, carving back the heel bar triangle...

What happens, if you been by rasping, if that makes the heel height lower than the rest of the foot (so the horse would almost be rockering back)?

Txfarrier11

Feb. 27, 2004, 05:16 PM

OK, are we still talking about"How top Farriers get Hunters moveing their best" or are we discussing how to keep a horse sound and comfortable? There is a BIG difference....

LMH

Feb. 27, 2004, 05:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Txfarrier11:
OK, are we still talking about"How top Farriers get Hunters moveing their best" or are we discussing how to keep a horse sound and comfortable? There is a BIG difference....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? I don't think there should be though-if sound and comfortable then the horse should move his or her best

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Txfarrier11

Feb. 27, 2004, 05:58 PM

LMH, thats pretty much my point. But the facts are we live in a real world, where decorated vetrans live under bridges, little children die of malnutrition while dogowners obscess about what king of treats and clothing to buy for their pets and, often, the wellbeing of horses takes a second place to what will make them win.

Lookout

Feb. 27, 2004, 06:18 PM

I know plenty of horseowners whose horse's wellbeing takes first place and I'm sure they're interested in how to keep their horse sound and comfortable. Tell me if I'm wrong.

HossShoer

Feb. 27, 2004, 07:33 PM

With all due respect Lookout, you're wrong in my opinion.
There are a few like you describe, but in the real world, it's a different story, and it's not pretty.

BTW Dutch, welcome to this BB.
I'm around, but mainly slb put's things alot better then I ever could, so I just sit back and let her explain things in the best way possible. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I just had a 17.3, rising 5 year old warmblood colt, find his way into my barn. He has fairly interesting feet. I will take a picture tomorrow of a before and after fyi.
Regards John

slb

Feb. 27, 2004, 07:54 PM

Hey John...great to see you posting again. Please do post those feet so we can talk about them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Would you and Dutch mind looking at the pics here:
http://www.ironfreehoof.com/case7.html
and commenting on how you would address the issue of changing the feet to a more optimal form....if you feel they should be changed.

The object of the exercise is not to critique the current trimmer's work, but how different methods/trimmers/farriers would address feet like this.

This stemed from my proposing to LMH that some feet cannot be addressed barefoot...or at least it will take forever to get them into a better form because the point of breakover is too far forward...the foot too distorted...and using an NB or similar shoe will correct the problem very quickly and get the base of support back under the horse and the foot moving back to where it belongs.

I purpose that when the toe is too long, that barefoot methods fail because they fail to move the point of breakover back far enough to get the foot to change significantly.

I just did an NB "shoe job" on this foot and will post it to show how fast I could get the breakover back, which in return would get the foot to respond beneficially.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Lookout

Feb. 27, 2004, 08:02 PM

HS I realize there are plenty of owners like that out there in the "real world", I'm speaking about those in this thread who care about their horses and want to keep them sound and comfortable, for the purposes of moving it along. Anyway LMH yes that is what I meant about the angle, that it was more correct where the new growth was, and you can take the heels lower in any manner or using any tool that works for you. If rasping makes the heels lower than the rest of the foot than you can use a knife. Key is to hold the rasp at an angle to avoid that happening. Whatever works.

[This message was edited by Lookout on Feb. 28, 2004 at 02:37 AM.]

slb

Feb. 27, 2004, 08:03 PM

BTW...forgot to add...that I agree with you...there are just too many people that care more about sucess than they do about the comfort of their horse.

I don't think that it is always intentional. Sometimes we think that an animal is suited to or wants to do what we do...they are our companion, our friend how could they not want to do what we want? But, sometimes, the farrier or chiro or vet has to "fix" the horse so that it can do what we expect. And, when that doesn't happen, it isn't our fault, or the horses, it's the professional's failure. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

However, as Lookout noted, there is a current trend in horseowners that implies things may be changing. I don't think that it will ever fully change, but at least its a kick in the butt for tradition.

Anyway, since we are on the subject...I would suspect that we are all looking to make the case we are discussing comfortable and sound as opposed to addressing some prima donna's needs. So, since it is reported to be sound, the question would be should it even be fixed? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb

Feb. 27, 2004, 08:05 PM

Lookout, would you take the heels below the current sole plane (as seen in the pics)?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Bensmom

Feb. 27, 2004, 08:18 PM

Hey John! I was wondering if you were still out there too (slb, this has several of us coming out of the woodwork! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

Lookout posted:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I would not match the new growth to the lower part of the foot, rather the other way around - match the lower part to the new growth (as much as possible). The whole angle of the leg has changed, not just the new growth. You can see the pastern has become more upright than in the before picture. The angle is determined from the bottom up. (That is why "long sloping pastern" doesn't really exist (see Bensmom's post), it is determined by the angle of the toe and heel and changes when these change.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I have not got a problem with the idea that the whole leg angle changes when the hoof changes, but I have to take issue with the idea that there is no such thing as a long or more sloping pastern. Two of my horses, one barefoot, one not, are really tough in this area. So far, on the barefoot one, my farrier cannot trim him to get his foot underneath the leg, or enough of it anyway. He basically says the horse stands in front of his leg naturally.

On the Little Monster, who has the bar shoe with the lifts that I posted pics of earlier, I really don't think anyone could do more than my farrier has tried to do with trims. His pastern is simply longer and has more angle to it than Ben's. I may measure it tomorrow, but he is a thick boned short guy (15.1 TB) and Ben has thinner bones and is a good bit taller (he looks bigger than 16hh) and I'd be willing to place a bet that Buzz's fetlock to hoof area is longer than Ben's and I KNOW it has more of a natural slope to it. I will take the pics I promised of Buzz barefoot on Tuesday so that I can illustrate what I'm talking about, but I know that the problem can be worse than just bad hoof angles.

Anyone else? Surely I am not imagining this.

Ok, John and Dutch can you guys address my eggbar shoe question I posed earlier in the thread? Why is a shoe made that way more supportive and/or better than the type of straight bar that Buzz wears?

Lookout, I also agree with John that there are some people out there that put the wellbeing of the horse first, and unfortunately, there are some, who otherwise I'd consider good horsemen, who refuse to accept that what they consider a "pretty" foot -- conical and with long underrun heels, is bad for the horse.

I've seen thousands of dollars spent acupuncturing, massaging, and adjusting horses that if the owners would just fix their feet -- it is their base of support, fergoodnesssakes!! -- would need much less work done to keep them comfortable.

Before my horse's feet were balanced behind, I was spending $80 once a month with the chiro, and approx $75 a week for our local vet to do acupuncture him so that I could canter him. I finally put my foot down and said that there must be something out of whack, and once we saw the x-rays of the rear feet, we knew just what it was.

When the chiro checked him on Tuesday he was absolutely clear of ANY pain in his hind end. Not stifle, not hock, not hip, not sacrum. And this was after some unusually hard work for him the week before. And this was without any remedial work (massage or acupuncture) at all.

Man, I am a believer in balanced feet. The question is just how to get there and stay there.

Libby

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

HossShoer

Feb. 27, 2004, 08:26 PM

Thanks, slb.
That case # 7. (BTW she has done some great work on that site)
If it was my horse, it would not get trimmed in the first place. There's not much there.
If I HAD TO trim it to make the owner happy and pay some bills of my own, I'm not sure I would drop those heels much, and probably just back up the toe, on the hoof stand, and leave a few rasp marks so they would know I was there. (It would be helpful to know age and what the horse was doing)
I'm guessing, that horse is fairly active in the field, and you could make a case for the toe being a little long, but it's not that bad. Why take it down to where he could be sore.
And on older horses that want to "carry" some extra heel, it's all back by the time you get back to trim them again, where as if you left it alone it probably wouldn't grow much anyway.
I'm all for taking a problem foot back to the widest part of the frog, so you have a zero point to start from on a new horse. And evaluate from there.
Regards John

HossShoer

Feb. 27, 2004, 08:39 PM

Hey Lookout, this BB is a little piece of heaven on earth for the horses of this group of owners and riders. If it was like this out "there" things could be a lot better. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bensmom, geat to see ya around.
I'm with ya on the balance part. I see it all the time in the show world. They can have it.
Just get the foot backed up and some steel on there to protect it and away you go. It's not brain surgery. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Since I've started using equithane pour in pads way back when it first came out, I hardly ever put on a bar shoe, straight or egg. That stuff justs works to make a happy foot.
Gotta get some sleep.
I'll post the colt's feet tomorrow, so we all can play again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Nite John.

Two Toofs

Feb. 28, 2004, 02:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:

If you have a farrier who is second only unto God (as Ben's Mom and Two Toofs seem to have found), does he necessarily charge more than the average rate in your area?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't really say what the non-track "standard" rates are in this area. The racetrack is a whole separate market unto itself. At the track, you'll pay about $45 for fronts only, $70 for shod all around. My farrier charges $60 for shod front/barefoot behind, $90 for shod all the way around and $30 for a trim. (This is just "standard" shoes - in the midwest). I also pay a $30 travel fee, which when considering how far I bring him to work on my small number of horses (about 70 miles), probably just barely covers his fuel charges to get here in his big giant state of the art rig. (In other words, by the looks of his rig, he's not exactly hurting for $$$).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Also, do others recognize his expertise, so that he is so busy that he is hard to schedule, or to get out if you lose a shoe?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We schedule the following appointment each time he comes out. On the rare occasion of a thrown shoe, he's usually out within 24 hours. The only exception to this is when he's out of town, not too often. During the "egg bar saga", he was out 3 times in 10 days. More than one of his clients owns horses that are consistent in the "top" rankings on a national level for the breed he normally works on. He does not normally take new clients. It took emailing some photos of a very pathetic looking horse/set of hooves, and a few tears http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif to get him out the first time. Now he continues because he enjoys the 'change of pace' from the show barns and the 'challenge'. And hopefully, because I try very hard to be a good customer. He is a professional and acts as such.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Next question: Do shoes put on by these good farriers balance a foot so well that shoes come off less? I am thinking that George is going to end up with trailers and so he will be much more likely to pull a shoe, even with western horse (no spin) bell boots, or two pairs of bellboots on each front hoof.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely. If breakover is addressed properly, the front will be able to get out of the way of the back. Combine that with not extending the shoe past the rear of the heel bulb, and chances are you'll be just fine - without bell boots even (not swearing you won't need them, but its very possible that you won't).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I am worried that (1) I will be paying a lot more for shoes that are (2) put on by a farrier who is busy and hard to get out in the case of (3) an inevitably lost shoe, due to the trailers he will want to put on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It probably won't be an easy feat to find just "the perfect" guy or gal. Don't think I don't count my blessings every single day! It was a long road to find this guy, and I honestly feel as though I was blessed to find him.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

LMH

Feb. 28, 2004, 03:49 AM

Lookout...well and all the others that have joined in http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif...there were a couple of questions I had asked that may have been lost in the shuffle.

The heel height: What in this pictures tell you that you can lower the heel height more without hurting this horse? Can you describe what you see that says--ok, more heel to go.

What if lowering the heels would make them LOWER than the rest of the hoof--sort of like the horse would rocker backwards-would you still lower them?

Thanks and I am glad to see some old and new foot faces jumping in http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Lookout

Feb. 28, 2004, 04:53 AM

slb I wouldn't be able to say from pictures whether I'd go below the current sole plane, same answer to LMH, I don't know (from these pictures) that I could lower the heel more without hurting the horse, my goal would be to do so (mainly to make the frog weightbearing) and that's why I said I'd do so very gradually, of course it would depend on what was found to be the case on the actual horse. I think I said that I would not lower the heels lower than the rest of the foot.

lisa

Feb. 28, 2004, 05:56 AM

While I'm sure Lord Helpus appreciates all this talk about barefoot trims, I'm sure (correct me if I'm wrong) she is not going this route.

So back on topic... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

To LH's questions about God-like farriers:
I have one, and he is not the most expensive in town, by any means. He is (unfortunately for me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ) getting more and more popular as he is helping more and more horses, just by correct balancing of the feet. I now have to schedule my appointments in advance, and sometimes I cannot get the day I want because he is already booked!

He is good about coming out for lost shoes, although *most* of his customers do not have this problem. In fact, my horses have been turned out 24/7, and even in this crappy weather, haven't lost a shoe. (I'll probably jinx myself just by writing this... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

In addition, LH, a good mover is a good mover, and while I know that you have customers coming for George, I would still shoe him in steel while he is not showing, especially since he already has compromised feet due to lost shoes. (Please, everyone, do not start with the no-aluminum business... I *know* aluminum is bad for horses' feet.) I keep my horse in steel (and he is also a hack winner) and then switch to aluminum, and sometimes with Equithane, when we show.

Re: Equithane: I love it, but I have found that as the feet grow in a few weeks, it loosens and comes out. And, at $20/foot, it gets pricey to have it replaced several times a month. But I will use it especially if the ground is hard, or we're showing on grass.

Bensmom

Feb. 28, 2004, 06:07 AM

lisa -- a quick question on your equithane -- does your farrier put it in with the gutter guard piece between the shoe and the foot to stabilize it? I have only lost the pad on Ben once when a hay string caught it and sliced it part way.

On Buzz, the only time I've had it come out was the one reset where we didn't use the mesh - both popped out by the next reset.

With the mesh, I've found that many times even if they pull a shoe, the pad stays in, which has prevented many a bruised foot/abcess, since Buzz used to abcess *every* time he pulled a shoe.

HS -- we are thinking of going back just to the equithane and no bar shoes on Ben -- I really thought his feet were better that way . . .

LH -- thanks for the topic and on the farrier issue, not only do I schedule my farrier appointments in advance, in order to get on the schedule for four weeks, we schedule 8 weeks out -- i.e. I make the time-after-next appointment every time. It makes it so much easier and his book is pretty open 8 weeks out . . . I also never miss an appointment and do my best to be on time -- that plus a bonus every now and then seems to keep him happy with me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Libby (very in favor of farrier preservation)

*Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*

Lord Helpus

Feb. 28, 2004, 07:03 AM

I do try to be a concerned horse owner and want what is best for the horse's feet. Obviously a well balanced hoof, with the appropriate breakover is most important.

BUT --- does that mean that well trimmed and shod race horses, show hunters, dressage horses, gaited horses, draft horses, etc. should all be trimmed exactly the same way to have a healthy hoof?

These different breeds/types all want a slightly different way of going. And, I think that this gets back to my original question (although I have learned TONS and become much more aware of the basic well prepared hoof, so I am thankful that this thread has evolved the way it has).

Aren't there SLIGHT modifications of the basic trim which will a encourage way of going that will give a horse that little edge which will result in a blue ribbon v. a yellow ribbon in its designated sport?

When I lived in California, a horse who was a lovely mover had his "jumping" shoes pulled for the under saddle and just "toe" shoes put on. This worked on the same principle (but in exactly the opposite way) as the weights and bungee cords that the gaited people use to warm up their horses. In that discipline, they make it slightly harder for a horse to lift its legs while they warm up, then remove the weight/restriction just before they enter the ring, so that the horse suddenly snaps its knees up higher when it trots into the show ring.

By taking off the normal shoe and adding a lighter one, the horse moves lower and longer than it might otherwise, since it is not lifting the heavier shoe with each step.

So, other than this method, there must be something that can be done without compromising the hoof's integrity so that a horse gets that little edge. Being a purist is fine, and I acknowledge that there is a starting off point for a well shod foot. But I am asking about the little tricks that the farriers who are considered artists know that I don't know.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

LMH

Feb. 28, 2004, 09:27 AM

LH in a word-NO. A balanced foot is a balanced foot-any tinkering to "improve movement" throws the balance off in the hoof and "jeoparidzes" the foot-now would he walk off lame that day? Probably not as the show hunters prove every day.

But any deviation from the proper trim is just wrong.

Hate to be that black and white, but...well...it is. AND IF the horse is trimmed balanced he WILL move the best that horse can. He will be most comfortable, have the least amount of pain (goodness hopefully no pain at all) so he will be moving the best he can.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

HossShoer

Feb. 28, 2004, 04:19 PM

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/huntingcowboystables/album?.dir=/de49

Ok, come on in and let's play with Jackson's feets.
So what would ya do with this 17.3 rising 5 year stud, that's halter broke.
He's been sent to moi to get backed.
I want to ride him out with hounds in the next 3 ish weeks. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
So just what combination of chemicals am I on"?????
I was invited to trim this colt by the former trainer back in late November.
The previous group of trimmers declined to come back to do him ever again.
The owner has had Jackson since he was a weanling. The knee is the result of a difficult birth.
Real shame cause he is one heck of a horse.
Before I commit to do this guy, I want xrays and a couple of professional opinions about what is going on in that knee.

Regards John

LMH

Feb. 28, 2004, 04:48 PM

HossShoer the link says file inaccessible-can you make it a public file somehow?

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

HossShoer

Feb. 28, 2004, 04:53 PM

Thanks LMH.
I just hit the share button.
What the heck do I know, I'm just a blacksmith. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

LMH

Feb. 28, 2004, 05:01 PM

YIKES these aren't your post trim pics are they?? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

These are so obvious even *I* can play!http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Overgrown hoof wall WOW. Overgron bars, overgrown heels, WICKED flares. Talk about stretched white line http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Nice flare on the outer right wall.

Wow that RF sole!

I can't wait to see how they look when you finish. Funny thing is-they look savlageable to me. I bet one trim who show wonders.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Txfarrier11

Feb. 28, 2004, 05:23 PM

Well, shoot, I dont seem to be able to get the PIC to download. And after the build up I was sure dissapointed

HossShoer

Feb. 28, 2004, 05:42 PM

Sorry Dutch.
Can someone explain to me how I pays my money and get to post pictures directly on the posts???
Or does someone want to copy them and post 'em for me.
Or is the link for Dutch the only one not working???
Thanks. John

horse_poor

Feb. 28, 2004, 05:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
I want to take a slight left hand turn here and ask about practical matters:

I realize that the cost of shoeing differs widely from area to area. So my first question is:

If you have a farrier who is second only unto God (as Ben's Mom and Two Toofs seem to have found), does he necessarily charge more than the average rate in your area?

I use Dutch, the Master Cobbler, as Aero calls him and I think his prices are reasonable, and the knowledge priceless

Also, do others recognize his expertise, so that he is so busy that he is hard to schedule, or to get out if you lose a shoe?

Nope---he is busy not not too busy to squeeze us in...that being said we have never lost a shoe---knock on wood. But when a clients horse had either an abcess/bruise he was out that day to take a peek

Next question: Do shoes put on by these good farriers balance a foot so well that shoes come off less? I am thinking that George is going to end up with trailers and so he will be much more likely to pull a shoe, even with western horse (no spin) bell boots, or two pairs of bellboots on each front hoof.

first thing i asked when aero got bar shoes and when client horses got trailers, DO THEY NEED BELL BOOTS? dutch said no. i kept asking and he finally threw his hands in the air and said "yes fine they both need bell boots, PURPLE bell boots if thats what ya wanna hear." needless to say, neither wear bell boots and have had no issues

I am worried that (1) I will be paying a lot more for shoes that are (2) put on by a farrier who is busy and hard to get out in the case of (3) an inevitably lost shoe, due to the trailers he will want to put on.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

molly
**you're not that cute AND you're not that special**
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

www.oasisequestrian.com (http://www.oasisequestrian.com)

[This message was edited by horse_poor on Feb. 28, 2004 at 10:03 PM.]