The pic of Ocean Park at WIHS in this weeks COTH [Archive]

Nikki^

Nov. 16, 2004, 11:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Wward:
and while he might not be the most beautiful rider to look at in a picture, he just won the WCHR Finals..for the second time.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what George Morris ment that some of the pro riders of today don't care about position. What happens is that the younger crowd thinks if they looks like this then they will win. It's very dangerous and it looks really, really bad.

It doesn't matter if he won this and that, the real matter is that the postion looks down right ugly and dangerous. The horse is not jumping like Rox Dene, nor is he jumping a 4 foot oxer. Just look at Elizabeth on Rox Dene. Yes, she's giving a HUGE release, but her positon looks save and effective.

I would like to see a video of the jump to see how the rider looks at take off, flight and landing.

lauriep

Nov. 16, 2004, 11:28 AM

I totally agree, Glimmerglass.

Esquire

Nov. 16, 2004, 11:32 AM

Shows you how much attention I paid to the rider...when I saw the picture, I was just drooling over the horse!

ADambra

Nov. 16, 2004, 12:53 PM

Peter really knows how to ride the hunters, and it's not like he asked anyone here to critique his position. He is really good at getting hunters to use their whole body and give a really nice jump in the air, regardless of how he looks.

fleur

Nov. 16, 2004, 12:54 PM

nikki, it seems like you don't get it about hunters. it isn't equitation! yes, good form leads to good function, but good function doesn't have to lead to good form. hunters are all about making the horse look brilliant. a horse's jump is critically influenced by its rider... in all those old photos from back in the day of people with beautiful classic eq, do those horses look like today's fancy hunters? i don't think so! eq horses these days jump flat and long, conducive to a very solid-looking classical equitation. hunters jump really round, which is much harder to maintain that position on.
in many situations, anyway, a hunter rider can't be thinking about whether or not he is ducking or looking down. he is concentrating on making his horse look as best he can, and if that means funky positions, he's gonna do it.
that doesn't mean that it's good for kids to imitate it, i agree with that, but it's really wrong to intimate that peter pletcher is a weaker rider in comparison to someone like maclain ward who tends to maintain the eq looking position even in the jumpers (although jumpers aren't hunters, but plenty of jumper riders use funky positions to again get the best performance out of their horses).
i don't show, but from going to hunter shows and riding at hunter barns, i have learned that jumping 2'6 and jumping 4' are (obviously) very different things that demand very different positions and considerations. over 2'6, you should concentrate on yourself because unless you're riding a pony, the horse probably won't make a huge effort over it. once the heights get up there, you need to be concerned with how your position affects the horse in times of quick decision-making, and it's not always sufficient to be focusing on your own eq.
it's all about the function, with the rider's form being a pleasant side effect of function that is coincidentally judged in the eq, but not the hunters http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Magnolia

Nov. 16, 2004, 01:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Peter really knows how to ride the hunters, and it's not like he asked anyone here to critique his position. He is really good at getting hunters to use their whole body and give a really nice jump in the air, regardless of how he looks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't offering a critique - I just found the photo really funny. And a lot of those pics look funny - a relaxed, balanced horse with a rider that looks on the verge of falling off - meanwhile, you flip to the Grand Prix and see a pic of Goldika given it her all with McLain looking relaxed and balanced - quite the irony.....

Diva98

Nov. 16, 2004, 01:25 PM

I don't know - I see plenty of Grand Prix riders whose form is less than perfect as well. There is a picture on Towerheads home page right now which proves this point. Doesn't mean the rider isn't good.

There was an article in PH by a top hunter rider and she explained her position in the air - which was far from classic - by saying that she felt it gave her horse the chance for a better jump. I can't remember the riders name - I think the article ran last year.

It seems to work for Peter - I don't think his clients are complaining. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Magnolia

Nov. 16, 2004, 01:33 PM

Yup, that I could ride like any of these folks! But they should be forewarned that excessive ducking may cause the "headless horseman affect" in photos (maybe that's the point - this horse is so nice, even a headless person can jump it!)

In my picture, I'd be in the dirt, just after Ocean Park slid to a stop after I leaned 2 strides out from a miss while taking back and kicking at the same time.....

Diva98

Nov. 16, 2004, 01:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> In my picture, I'd be in the dirt, just after Ocean Park slid to a stop after I leaned 2 strides out from a miss while taking back and kicking at the same time.....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Me too!!!!!

Midge

Nov. 16, 2004, 01:53 PM

Since Peter also rode and won at the Grand Prix level, I think we can safely assume he knows how to ride. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Nikki^

Nov. 16, 2004, 01:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fleur:
nikki, it seems like you don't get it about hunters. ) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It seems like you don't get what I'm talking about! Why don't you go ask George Morris why they look like in the hunter ring? I asked him, and he told me that they don't care. He also agreed with me that it makes the whole picture look really ugly and the position is very dangerous. What would happen if the horse stumbled or didn't land correctly? I hate to see that.

Again, LOOK AT ELIZABETH AND ROX DENE! You don't see her looking like a fool (as GM puts it) over the fences do you?

Look at Laura Chapot,George Morris, McClain Ward etc...
Even though their EQ isn't text book perfect all the time, they sure as hell don't look like the rider in that picture!

The whole looking down, legs kicked back, laying on the neck is just really stupid looking to me. I mean, you are taught to look up, keep legs at the girth, heels down, let the horse lift you body and these new age riders are just giving the basics the middle finger. It's really sad.

Now I understand that your leg might slip back, or you might give a huge release, but that doesn't mean you let yourself go and look like you are about to fall off the horse. There is no reason why riders of today have to look like that.

But that's MHO and I'm sticking to GM's teachings and listen to what he teaches.

Quote:
"Since Peter also rode and won at the Grand Prix level, I think we can safely assume he knows how to ride."

That's great reason why to look like that on a hunter horse. I know Pete is a great rider, but I just wish the hunter riders of today would put some effort on their position. I think with his skill he could do that.

ABBA

Nov. 16, 2004, 03:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
I still hate that style and even though the horse is jumping beautifuly, the rider's position ruins the whole picture. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it takes "that position" to sweep the Second Year Division at WIHS...then I'm all for it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ABBA

Nov. 16, 2004, 03:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
To ride like that in the real world ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Humor me. What does it take to "ride in the real world." And what/where is "the real world?"

ABBA

Nov. 16, 2004, 03:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:

Duly corrected - the owner is Ms. Ward.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try Mrs. Walsh http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Caribbean Soul

Nov. 16, 2004, 03:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ADambra:
Peter really knows how to ride the hunters, and it's not like he asked anyone here to critique his position. He is really good at getting hunters to use their whole body and give a really nice jump in the air, regardless of how he looks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think just by being a professional he is holding himself up for critique. Peter has a tremendous influence on other riders (especially young riders). I'd bet if asked about that particular photo he'd be the first to point out his ducking. I doubt it is something he'd let pass with one of his own students. Though when all is said and done he is a wonderful rider and I love to ride half as well! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

SED

Nov. 16, 2004, 03:41 PM

Can anyone link to the picture?

LulaBell

Nov. 16, 2004, 03:48 PM

i think it's still on the coth main website

Madeline

Nov. 16, 2004, 04:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fleur:
nikki, it seems like you don't get it about hunters. it isn't equitation! yes, good form leads to good function, but good function doesn't have to lead to good form. hunters are all about making the horse look brilliant. <snip> hunters jump really round, which is much harder to maintain that position on.
<snip>i don't show, but from going to hunter shows and riding at hunter barns, i have learned that jumping 2'6 and jumping 4' are (obviously) very different things that demand very different positions and considerations. over 2'6, you should concentrate on yourself because unless you're riding a pony, the horse probably won't make a huge effort over it. once the heights get up there, you need to be concerned with how your position affects the horse in times of quick decision-making, and it's not always sufficient to be focusing on your own eq.

<snip> http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a bit of a problem with the concept that 4' is a major effort for a good horse. Especially 4' on manicured perfectly level footing with carefully measured distances. Any horse with a modicum of athletic ability can jump 4' without breaking a sweat. What seems to be happening, here in the land of nine gazillion 3' and lower divisions, is that there is an effort to create the illusion that the horse is making a REALLY BIG POWERFUL JUMP. I guess that's what passes for brilliance when you don't use any pace.

ABBA

Nov. 16, 2004, 04:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Madeline:
[QUOTE] Any horse with a modicum of athletic ability can jump 4' without breaking a sweat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

ADambra

Nov. 16, 2004, 04:20 PM

Madeline - sometimes I find it takes an effort just to stay on my junior hunter, and we are only going over 3'6. That is what a nice hunter is - one that will give a round, powerful jump and really use his body. Those can be quite hard to stay with.

I think if a lot of people rode certain hunters that proffesionals ride, they wouldn't be so quick to talk about who has such horrible form.

CBoylen

Nov. 16, 2004, 04:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Madeline: Any horse with a modicum of athletic ability can jump 4' without breaking a sweat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I want to edit. Any horse with a modicum of ability can get over 4'. The ones that can do it in GOOD FORM, without twisting, drifting, swapping, rubbing, getting quick, or getting flat, AND still get down the lines without running, and out of the in and out without reaching, AND do it all smoothly while presenting a nice picture, are few and far between. Just watch a working class, you won't see very many http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
While I'm at it, even the very nicest of horses won't go their best if their rider doesn't give them a good ride and stay out of their way in the air. The less talented horses deserve to be ridden like nice horses or they won't ever go like them.
Peter does a great job on any caliber of horse, and Ocean Park happens to be top caliber.
Once again, it's really easy to ride from the ground, and none of us are anywhere near as successful as Peter is in the ring.

Nikki^

Nov. 16, 2004, 04:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ADambra:
Madeline - sometimes I find it takes an effort just to stay on my junior hunter, and we are only going over 3'6. That is what a nice hunter is - one that will give a round, powerful jump and really use his body. Those can be quite hard to stay with.

I think if a lot of people rode certain hunters that proffesionals ride, they wouldn't be so quick to talk about who has such horrible form. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I WISH I could ride those horses. Mind you, I have jumped a 3'6 oxer on my 15.1 Hand TB and I tell you it's HUGE! But if I had the position of the new age riders, I would've fallen off.

My horse CRACKED his back over that oxer so the best way to ride it is in the middle of the horse, giving a generous release, looking through his ears, heels down and leg at the girth.

That's how I ride anyway and if my leg starts to slip back, it's back to no stirrups over cross rails and grids. I also start each warmup without stirrups to keep my leg tight and once a week I go galloping in two point.

My teacher always told me that the HORSE comes up to rider and not the rider to the horse. "The horse closes the picture" as she would put it.

Tin

Nov. 16, 2004, 04:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Any horse with a modicum of athletic ability can jump 4' without breaking a sweat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I strongly disagree but it's a nice thought.

I always find it funny when people critique the pro's, obviously somethings working for them.

ABBA

Nov. 16, 2004, 04:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:

I WISH I could ride those horses. Mind you, I have jumped a 3'6 oxer on my 15.1 Hand TB and I tell you it's HUGE! But if I had the position of the new age riders, I would've fallen off.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those that can (Peter Pletcher et. al.) do.
Those that can't (?????) critique.

Illyria

Nov. 16, 2004, 04:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
But if I had the position of the new age riders, I would've fallen off.

My horse CRACKED his back over that oxer so the best way to ride it is in the middle of the horse, giving a generous release, looking through his ears, heels down and leg at the girth.

That's how I ride anyway and if my leg starts to slip back, it's back to no stirrups over cross rails and grids. I also start each warmup without stirrups to keep my leg tight and once a week I go galloping in two point.

My teacher always told me that the HORSE comes up to rider and not the rider to the horse. "The horse closes the picture" as she would put it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps these riders are able not to have a perfect eq position and stay out of the horse's way (ie without getting them with their leg or balancing off the mouth), which many people, myself included, don't seem to be able to do in that position.

Hasty

Nov. 16, 2004, 05:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ADambra:
Madeline - sometimes I find it takes an effort just to stay on my junior hunter, and we are only going over 3'6. That is what a nice hunter is - one that will give a round, powerful jump and really use his body. Those can be quite hard to stay with.

I think if a lot of people rode certain hunters that proffesionals ride, they wouldn't be so quick to talk about who has such horrible form. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I WISH I could ride those horses. Mind you, I have jumped a 3'6 oxer on my 15.1 Hand TB and I tell you it's HUGE! But if I had the position of the new age riders, I would've fallen off.

My horse CRACKED his back over that oxer so the best way to ride it is in the middle of the horse, giving a generous release, looking through his ears, heels down and leg at the girth.

That's how I ride anyway and if my leg starts to slip back, it's back to no stirrups over cross rails and grids. I also start each warmup without stirrups to keep my leg tight and once a week I go galloping in two point.

My teacher always told me that the HORSE comes up to rider and not the rider to the horse. "The horse closes the picture" as she would put it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Clearly Peter Pletcher is doing something right and clearly you disagree with his way of riding....why don't you keep riding your way and he can keep riding his way and only time will tell where that gets the both of you.

Oh and by the way, that picture of Ocean Park is FABULOUS.

playing cards

Nov. 16, 2004, 05:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Illyria:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
But if I had the position of the new age riders, I would've fallen off.

My horse CRACKED his back over that oxer so the best way to ride it is in the middle of the horse, giving a generous release, looking through his ears, heels down and leg at the girth.

That's how I ride anyway and if my leg starts to slip back, it's back to no stirrups over cross rails and grids. I also start each warmup without stirrups to keep my leg tight and once a week I go galloping in two point.

My teacher always told me that the HORSE comes up to rider and not the rider to the horse. "The horse closes the picture" as she would put it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps these riders are able not to have a perfect eq position and stay out of the horse's way (ie without getting them with their leg or balancing off the mouth), which many people, myself included, don't seem to be able to do in that position. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd hazard that Peter could stay with that horse even if he had to do a handstand on the saddle over the jump. 99.9% of the time not being able to stay with the horse is simply not even part of the equation for riders of Peter's caliber. He could file his nails over the top of that jump if he wanted to.

The real question is why do riders do it? The best that I can offer is that for me at least, when I was riding/schooling/showing umpteen horses a day, I could duck or not duck, lean or not lean, but leaning or ducking a little seemed to conserve energy. I didn't have to exert as much over oxers if I leaned a little off to the side. Modicums of energy add up with 12-16 hour days.

Perhaps not the best reason, but it's all I can offer. The only other one might be that the jump just felt better a little off to one side or the other, depending on the horse.

That being said, Peter does lean/duck more than most. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LeesaM.

Nov. 16, 2004, 05:30 PM

That horse has beautiful style - no wonder he was Champion

GirlNextDoor

Nov. 16, 2004, 05:33 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I am guessing that all of you who are knocking Peter Pletcher's style have never actually seen him ride. He is amazing to watch. There is no one softer or in more control than he is. He is soooooo smooth and fantastic. He is really a pleasure to watch.

The point of riding a hunter is not the point of riding in an equitation class. There is a reason for the difference. Peter Pletcher obviously knows how to get the job done and how to make it all look effortless. Because of his soft style, his horses look 1000x easier and smoother and really just about perfect.

Maybe some of you guys need to watch some of the bigger shows and watch some of the really great professionals ride. It is like they are not even there. And you will never see a smoother trip in your life http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Hasty

Nov. 16, 2004, 06:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by GirlNextDoor:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I am guessing that all of you who are knocking Peter Pletcher's style have never actually seen him ride. He is amazing to watch. There is no one softer or in more control than he is. He is soooooo smooth and fantastic. He is really a pleasure to watch.

The point of riding a hunter is not the point of riding in an equitation class. There is a reason for the difference. Peter Pletcher obviously knows how to get the job done and how to make it all look effortless. Because of his soft style, his horses look 1000x easier and smoother and really just about perfect.

Maybe some of you guys need to watch some of the bigger shows and watch some of the really great professionals ride. It is like they are not even there. And you will never see a smoother trip in your life http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there is only one person actually "knocking" his style. I for one, don't really care what he looks like in the air, he rides great, hands down!

madcat

Nov. 16, 2004, 06:20 PM

Personally, from watching Peter ride all his hunters he seems to have a relationship with each one and they love his ride. Maybe George Morris is more "correct" but watching Pletcher ride a hunter is a joy. Instead of forcing it is fluid and effective. I don't think he's ducking...he's just shy...

madcat

Nov. 16, 2004, 06:29 PM

By the way, I know Ocean Park personally and he thanks everyone for all the nice comments. He thinks Peter is just swell...

Hasty

Nov. 16, 2004, 07:19 PM

Madcat-

be sure to give ocean park some treats from all of his fans!

fleur

Nov. 16, 2004, 08:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
if my leg starts to slip back, it's back to no stirrups over cross rails and grids. I also start each warmup without stirrups to keep my leg tight and once a week I go galloping in two point.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i don't even want to imagine how much more no-stirrup and two-point work PP has done than you. THAT's why he can ride the way he does.

it's a huge difference between your untight leg slipping back over presumably less than 3' and PP choosing to bring his leg back to influence his pro hunter (who i'm sure would jump you right out of the tack), or you ducking and throwing your horse's weight off over a little jump and PP ducking to get out of the horse's way when it is attempting to jump with the highest and smoothest arc possible.

Tin

Nov. 16, 2004, 08:38 PM

you got it fleur!

Silly Mommy

Nov. 16, 2004, 09:40 PM

I don't think top hunter rider's styles have changed all that much.

IMO the best ever (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SACJAgMWBi4jFqdgAC1sX!Yp6lJnDO4Anx2wq80b9ctmmibBl QIXi9VujNR9WgVEogQByZ0QxhBmhX7NdMdJ7fioi!MsC33H13a 4DWCkE6EzAAAAynIFAg/mandarin20.jpg?dc=4675497811941824405)

buschkn

Nov. 16, 2004, 10:25 PM

"Those that can (Peter Pletcher et. al.) do.
Those that can't (?????) critique."

"i don't even want to imagine how much more no-stirrup and two-point work PP has done than you. THAT's why he can ride the way he does.

it's a huge difference between your untight leg slipping back over presumably less than 3' and PP choosing to bring his leg back to influence his pro hunter (who i'm sure would jump you right out of the tack), or you ducking and throwing your horse's weight off over a little jump and PP ducking to get out of the horse's way when it is attempting to jump with the highest and smoothest arc possible."

WOW! You guys are getting pretty hateful, no need to attack someone's riding ability personally, just b/c they didn't win some hunter championship. Nobody is suggesting that PP is not successful, or even smooth. Though it would be difficult to be terribly smooth with that much movement.

Ocean Park is obviously a fabulous horse and a fantastic jumper. Whether or not he would "jump everyone out of the tack" who dares critique PP's style seems a moot point. The point is that riding styles have developed over many years for a reason. Better for the horse, safer for the rider, more aesthetically pleasing, and so forth. No doubt that some GP riders have unusual style, Frank Sloothak (I think it was him) comes to mind. HOWEVER, just b/c there are SOME people who ride successfully in unattractive and untraditional styles doesn't mean it should become the standard to emulate or even defend recklessly. The MAJORITY of the successful riders at GP and beyond usually keep their leg under their bodies and their torsos in general location of the middle of the horse.
And don't for a minute tell me that those horses aren't jumping with smooth and high arcs. And if you don't believe that ducking and leaning is dangerous and bad for the horse's balance, go to Rolex some year and see how many four-star event riders do it. They'd all be dead.

And there is really no need to personally insult people for expressing their opinions. Most people I know would agree that while PP is successful it is not the style most of us strive for, at least in the headless horseman pic. If you want to ride like PP, go for it. If some people on the BB don't like that style, they are allowed to say so without you guys ganging up and suggesting they are crap riders and would never be able to stay with a horse jumping that high anyway, so their critique is invalid. Who are you to say?

mizzwade

Nov. 17, 2004, 05:45 AM

I'm sure that Peter is getting a BIG kick out of this thread!!

Magnolia

Nov. 17, 2004, 05:45 AM

Jeez, people, the picture was FUNNY! Humourous. Made me LAUGH. The horse looked BEAUTIFUL. The rider looked headless. Obviously, the man can ride. It was not meant to be a critique of whether or not the man could ride. Of course he can ride. That is why he is riding a lovely horse and winning. But he sure took a funny picture over this jump.

Now be nice - no more arguing about position on my topic!

slp

Nov. 17, 2004, 05:57 AM

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
I thought it was funny too, and if someone could make my horse look exactly like that, I couldn't care less if they had a head attached to their body or not.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Hopeful Hunter

Nov. 17, 2004, 06:13 AM

What's interesting is that I actually saw Ocean Park and Mr. Pletcher that day, and don't recall thinking he was ducking over the fences. Actually, what I remember was watching how carefully he set up the horse around the turns and to the fences to give him the chance to show himself off so beautifully. Over the fences the horse took all your attention - as he should for a hunter. But really, there WERE some riders who favored the "post the canter and duck radically over to the side" school of riding, but I don't recall that Mr. Pletcher was one of them.

Maybe it was just the infamous "bad camera angle" in that photo, or it may have been a jump that had the potential to be a bit less perfect, so he saved it? Not sure, but I do remember the complete actual round was lovely to see.

Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender

Nov. 17, 2004, 06:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ABBA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:

Duly corrected - the owner is Ms. Ward.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try Mrs. Walsh http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

if that were true, I'd be the happiest woman on the planet http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DMK

Nov. 17, 2004, 06:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by madcat:
I don't think he's ducking...he's just shy... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's true. He's hiding from the limelight so his more famous brother can keep it... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

bushkn, not sure what thread you are reading, or what lines you are reading between, but if this is your version of "hateful," I give you fair warning to stay away from most every contentious thread on the BB. You may not be up to the experience. This one is practically a love fest.

Yea, lots of top riders duck and seem draped over their horse's necks in a photo snapped at the top of the fence, but you would be beyond foolish to think that this means they were dropping their horse or in any way not waiting for the horse at the base of the fence. Watch a few classes or videos of top hunter riders. They wait better and more accurately than those of us not ducking and draping (but still dumping and dropping!)

You might not like the ducking and draping (that's fair enough), but you have to accept in the vast majority of pro rides (certainly the ones you see at the top of a 4'0 oxer in a photo in COTH!), the basics are there, and they are exceptional. Accept this as just an artistic affectation. It's like Jackson Pollack - either you think he is terrible, or the most amazing painter of the 20th century.

I just secretly wish that when I ducked, my body still stayed over the center of gravity or better yet it was a cleverly executed plan to shift my weight to correct a minute drift in my horse. But I checked my USEF card and it still says "ammie" all over it, so I'll keep dreaming. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

buschkn

Nov. 17, 2004, 07:01 AM

"bushkn, not sure what thread you are reading, or what lines you are reading between, but if this is your version of "hateful," I give you fair warning to stay away from most every contentious thread on the BB. You may not be up to the experience. This one is practically a love fest."
-----------------------------------------------
"i don't even want to imagine how much more no-stirrup and two-point work PP has done than you. THAT's why he can ride the way he does.

it's a huge difference between your untight leg slipping back over presumably less than 3' and PP choosing to bring his leg back to influence his pro hunter (who i'm sure would jump you right out of the tack), or you ducking and throwing your horse's weight off over a little jump..."
------------------------------------------------

DMK-

I know this thread is hardly hateful compared to some that I've seen, but it just seemed to me that this quote from fleur was more than a little condescending and belittling, without having to read between the lines. The picture does look funny, like a headless horseman. I don't think it was meant to start a huge diatribe, and I didn't think anything said prior warranted this remark. If it was said to/about you, would you not feel a little personally affronted? It wasn't a general statement, it was an attack on one individual and their abilities, which if I had to guess, fleur probably knows nothing about. And nor do I. That person may well be a poor rider, but they may also be the next PP, how the hell would we know?

That was all I was getting at.

And either way, the pic is still funny. THAT was the point the OP was making, nothing more nothing less. Unless I misunderstood again.

Pirateer

Nov. 17, 2004, 07:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ABBA/

Those that can (Peter Pletcher et. al.) do.
Those that can't (?????) critique. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are my HEEEERO!

Blinky

Nov. 17, 2004, 07:25 AM

This is not directed at PP. I have seen him ride and he is a very soft rider. You don't see any movement from him yet you see the results in how his horses go.

My question is and I see this all the time in the COTH is why do people look straight down as they are over the jump?

yoohoo

Nov. 17, 2004, 07:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mizzwade:
I'm sure that Peter is getting a BIG kick out of this thread!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can assure you he hasn't read it!

J. Turner

Nov. 17, 2004, 08:01 AM

I'm sure the difference is if I did it, I wouldn't be in balance. Pros have an uncanny sense of balance and can tweak it at will. This is probably just an "extreme" moment in time caught by the camera.

fleur

Nov. 17, 2004, 08:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by buschkn:
It wasn't a general statement, it was an attack on one individual and their abilities, which if I had to guess, fleur probably knows nothing about. And nor do I. That person may well be a poor rider, but they may also be the next PP, how the hell would we know? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree that the photo is hilarious and shows a funny aspect of pro hunter riders, but Nikki was saying that if she rode like that, she'd fall off. i was just illustrating the difference between an ammy going over less than 3' (correct me if i'm wrong but since nikki said 3'6 was HUGE i assume she doesn't regularly jump that high) and a pro taking a world-class hunter over a 4' oxer. i'm not insulting nikki's riding, just her idea that PP ducking or slipping a leg back is the same as suzy amateur just having a loose leg or throwing her weight around to the negative influence of the horse. no personal offense to nikki, i just don't think she gets the intricacies of pro hunter riding. not that i do either, but i would never assume that if i was on a horse as nice as ocean park i would be able to hold a perfect classical eq position while simultaneously getting the biggest roundest best jump out of the horse. that's all! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ruby G. Weber

Nov. 17, 2004, 08:56 AM

For heaven's sake, this is one photograph of about 32 jumps Peter jumped on Ocean Park, in the ring, at WIHS alone. Neither man nor beast has perfect technique 100% of the time.

By the way, re: Silly M's photo....isn't the rider's foot a bit too far forward in the stirrup?

TatteredDaydreamer

Nov. 17, 2004, 09:16 AM

I just wanted to add my bit here....

This may not be the prettiest picture ever taken but it's just that, a picture. Less then a second of time captured into a still image. I had the pleasure of watching Mr.Pletcher ride at Harrisburg this year and was very pleasantly surprised at how quite and soft and fluid of a rider he is. He's a pleasure to watch and his rounds just seem to flow, they're very graceful. Not only is he a beautiful rider but he's also very nice. I was sitting about three seats away from him when he came up to watch others show and he is such a pleasant man! I don't think one picture should be a representative of how this man rides, go watch him in person and then make a decision about his ability. Sorry, had to get this off my chest. By the way, that horse is simply breath taking, what a beautiful animal.

Lindsey

Nikki^

Nov. 17, 2004, 09:22 AM

buschkn: Thank you for that post. It seems to some that if you don't win or ride in the big shows then you can't ride at all.

ABBA: You see I don't have the oppertunity nor the money to ride nice hunters and if I did, I could do a four foot jump. Just because I don't have access to six figure horses or a BNT doesn't mean I can't ride.

Fleur: 3'6 is BIG for my little TB and since I'm 5'2, it's big to me. How big is Ocean Park BTW? 17 hands? That 4 foot jump to him is like a 2'9 jump to my TB. That's huge difference.

GND: I'm going to take you up on your suggestion and go to the Atlanta Spring Classic this year with my camcorder in hand.

I have no doubt that Peter is a great rider, a nice person, and his trips are smooth as silk, but the form over the fence looks silly. I don't expect the riders to have 100% perfect EQ over the fences but at least try to not look like they are about to fall off the horse. What scares me that this style will be come the norm and the less experience riders will try to copy it.

What confuses me is that this style goes against what we all have been taught and it's being rewarded.

Silly Mommy: What a nice picture. Is that you?

Illyria

Nov. 17, 2004, 09:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
What confuses me is that this style goes against what we all have been taught and it's being rewarded. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But it's the horse that's being judged (and rewarded), not the rider.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>What scares me that this style will be come the norm and the less experience riders will try to copy it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that's already happening, unfortunately.

Ben and Me

Nov. 17, 2004, 09:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> ABBA: You see I don't have the oppertunity nor the money to ride nice hunters and if I did, I could do a four foot jump. Just because I don't have access to six figure horses or a BNT doesn't mean I can't ride.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't cost six figures to find a horse that can jump 4' well. A very experienced horsewoman at my previous barn found her A/O hunter for $4500 (granted, the mare certainly wasn't an A/O hunter when she bought her!) and occaisionally schooled over 4'. It does require an educated eye of good horseflesh. On the flip side, plenty of people do have the money to do the 4' and aren't talented enough riders--most juniors and ammy's never school that high, despite how much money they have. Not saying that you aren't a talented rider, but blaming your lack of experience at 4' on a lack of money seems a little silly to me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Fleur: 3'6 is BIG for my little TB and since I'm 5'2, it's big to me. How big is Ocean Park BTW? 17 hands? That 4 foot jump to him is like a 2'9 jump to my TB. That's huge difference. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure thats how this works. There are pony jumpers in Europe that show over 3'6 and 4. I can think of quite a few smaller horses that have been successful in the 3'6 or 4' hunters or in the big jumpers. It may be huge because he isn't scopey enough, but not because of his height. Horses back in the day were smaller than they are now (due to the recent increase in warmbloods) and still showed over 3'6.

OneonOne

Nov. 17, 2004, 09:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
What confuses me is that this style goes against what we all have been taught and it's being rewarded. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, it's not being rewarded. Peter (and the horse's owners) are being rewarded in the hunter ring, where Peter's form doesn't matter. Only the horse's form matters.

Good equitation is rewarded in the equitation ring. I realize that many people think that today's equitation is going downhill, but I have yet to see anyone riding with form like PP (ducking, leg slipped back) win in the eq ring.

Nikki, why can't you see the difference in the hunter and equitation classes?

vanjumper

Nov. 17, 2004, 10:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ben & Me:
I'm not sure thats how this works. There are pony jumpers in Europe that show over 3'6 and 4. I can think of quite a few smaller horses that have been successful in the 3'6 or 4' hunters or in the big jumpers. It may be huge because he isn't scopey enough, but not because of his height. Horses back in the day were smaller than they are now (due to the recent increase in warmbloods) and still showed over 3'6. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i have to agree on this point, i had a mare that was 15.1 but absolutely soared with ease over 4ft+, as well as i can think of quite a few jumper ponies that can show and win at 3'6"+.

DCN

Nov. 17, 2004, 10:12 AM

For people who want to see a much better example of how Peter Pletcher rides (and how good he is), go to the Capital Challenge website (www.capitalchallenge.com (http://www.capitalchallenge.com)) and watch the video clip of his last round battle with Sandy Farrell in the WCHR final this year.

Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender

Nov. 17, 2004, 10:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RideFastJumpBig:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ben & Me:
I'm not sure thats how this works. There are pony jumpers in Europe that show over 3'6 and 4. I can think of quite a few smaller horses that have been successful in the 3'6 or 4' hunters or in the big jumpers. It may be huge because he isn't scopey enough, but not because of his height. Horses back in the day were smaller than they are now (due to the recent increase in warmbloods) and still showed over 3'6. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i have to agree on this point, i had a mare that was 15.1 but absolutely soared with ease over 4ft+, as well as i can think of quite a few jumper ponies that can show and win at 3'6"+. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Strapless is 15.1 or 15.2..she's tiny

Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender

Nov. 17, 2004, 10:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DCN:
For people who want to see a much better example of how Peter Pletcher rides (and how good he is), go to the Capital Challenge website (http://www.capitalchallenge.com) and watch the video clip of his last round battle with Sandy Farrell in the WCHR final this year. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.capitalchallengehorseshow.com/

Nikki^

Nov. 17, 2004, 10:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by OneonOne:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
What confuses me is that this style goes against what we all have been taught and it's being rewarded. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, it's not being rewarded. Peter (and the horse's owners) are being rewarded in the hunter ring, where Peter's form _doesn't matter_. Only the horse's form matters.

Good equitation is rewarded in the _equitation_ ring. I realize that many people think that today's equitation is going downhill, but I have yet to see anyone riding with form like PP (ducking, leg slipped back) win in the eq ring.

Nikki, why can't you see the difference in the hunter and equitation classes? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because Oneies it look dangerous and I just plain don't like it. That is all.

I'm not saying Pete is a bad rider it's just I DO NOT LIKE IT THE NEW AGE STYLE. That is all. Pete can ride however he likes but I'm not going to copy him. He wins and I'm happy for him.

You don't have to agree with me and I'm not forcing people to agree with me. I just don't like how it looks. To me it's the whole picture that counts, not just the rider or horse.

But it's MHO.

Why can't anybody understand that I don't like the style. That's all.

Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender

Nov. 17, 2004, 10:24 AM

I just watched the video on the Capital Challenge website, and I have to say..he hardly moves.
He may not be centered over the horse, with eyes up, looking straight ahead, but it's also a 3'6" fence on a horse (Ocean Park, not WCHR finals) that has a TON of jump..it's not easy to keep a till seat over a fence of that height on a horse that will launch you out of the tack.
Just an observation..

BLBGP

Nov. 17, 2004, 10:34 AM

Thanks for the video link! I think that says more than one still shot.

GirlNextDoor

Nov. 17, 2004, 10:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:

ABBA: You see I don't have the oppertunity nor the money to ride nice hunters and if I did, I could do a four foot jump. Just because I don't have access to six figure horses or a BNT doesn't mean I can't ride. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe i missed where she said you couldn't ride, buuut you don't seem to understand the theory of hunters. It is not equitation, it is judged on the horse. The rider is there to make the horse perform as well and as seemlessly as possible.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Fleur: 3'6 is BIG for my little TB and since I'm 5'2, it's big to me. How big is Ocean Park BTW? 17 hands? That 4 foot jump to him is like a 2'9 jump to my TB. That's huge difference. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Margie Goldstein is tiiiiiiny. I don't think it scares her to jump high. I don't really understand why a rider's height makes a difference but whatever. And i know it has been said by others, but ponies can jump 4ft. My 14.1 pony hunter could jump a 4ft jump.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I have no doubt that Peter is a great rider, a nice person, and his trips are smooth as silk, but the form over the fence looks silly. I don't expect the riders to have 100% perfect EQ over the fences but at least try to not look like they are about to fall off the horse. What scares me that this style will be come the norm and the less experience riders will try to copy it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't worry about followers. if they don't have the correct basic position, this position is not going to work for them and they will not be rewarded for it. Once they are able to ride at the same calibur as the successful pros of today, let them ride however they want. They deserve it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Plus, they can make the position work. I'm sorry if it scares you buuut these riders are in control and this is why they are ble to ride like that.
What confuses me is that this style goes against what we all have been taught and it's abeing rewarded.

Piper

Nov. 17, 2004, 10:58 AM

Are these finals judged on equitation alone or as a hunter round?

BLBGP

Nov. 17, 2004, 11:01 AM

Piper - they're judged on who can get the best hunter performance out of the horses. Each rider rides each of the four horses offered. They have never ridden the horses before.

Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender

Nov. 17, 2004, 11:05 AM

part is judged on their equitation, per se..but mostly, as BLBGP said, it's who gets the best perfomance out of a strange horse

Piper

Nov. 17, 2004, 11:05 AM

so the fact that Matrix rubbed the hell out of the second fence and Maverick twisted over the top of the last fence and dropped a knee has no bearing on the final score?????

Just wondering. They are both lovely and soft rides but I almost passed out when I saw the scores they were given!

GirlNextDoor

Nov. 17, 2004, 11:08 AM

I'm thinking it has a lot to do about style too. A few years ago Louise Serio had a rail in one round and still got in the 90s and ended up winning. They then told the audience that it was also aobut rider's style and whatever...so i really haven't any idea lol.

DMK

Nov. 17, 2004, 11:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
3'6 is BIG for my little TB and since I'm 5'2, it's big to me. How big is Ocean Park BTW? 17 hands? That 4 foot jump to him is like a 2'9 jump to my TB. That's huge difference. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That definitely isn't the way it works. Strapless (Working Hunter Extraordinaire) was also a small junior. That means she measures under 16'0. And we won't even mention Touch of Class or Stroller... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But as C.Boylen correctly pointed out earlier, there is no shortage of horses that can jump a 4'0 jump. It's the stringing 8 perfect ones, with next to no obvious support from the rider, and no obvious flaws or weaknesses on the part of the horse, AND maintaining jaw dropping form that isn't easy to find.

BAC

Nov. 17, 2004, 11:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by BLBGP:
Piper - they're judged on who can get the best hunter performance out of the horses. Each rider rides each of the four horses offered. They have never ridden the horses before. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe I read somewhere, probably in the COTH's coverage of this class, that they were being judged on position or riding style, in addition to the horse's performance. That surprised me, I always thought it was strictly a performance (horse's) class.

Nov. 17, 2004, 11:44 AM

What's this comment about the "new age" riders. If you were old enough http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif you would remember very similar pictures of Rodney Jenkins doing the regular working hunters on many horses.

And you have to say that Rodney J. in his day and Peter P. now haven't had much of a problem getting rides on truly spectactular horses. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Peter rides different horses differently -- that's what makes him a great pro!

You look at the picture of Ocean Park and your reaction (if you're a cup-half-full type) should be, OH MY GOD - LOOK AT THAT HORSE!!!

If you want to stir the pot and criticize one of the most successful hunter riders today, then you pick on his position. There is nothing "new age" about this position, and he must be doing something right because the horse IS WINNING at the fall indoors. I bet that if you saw the entire round, as opposed to a split second caught on a still frame, you wouldn't react.

BAC

Nov. 17, 2004, 11:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Piper:
Are these finals judged on equitation alone or as a hunter round? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"The riders are judged on their equitation, hunter presentation and horsemanship." This is an exact quote from the COTH's article "Pletcher Gallops His Way To The Pro Title at Capital Challenge."

Nov. 17, 2004, 11:48 AM

But the final where PP won the Pro Challenge was not the same class as the one shown in the picture where he's on Ocean Park. So, don't lump them together. He certainly would have ridden 4 previously-unknown horses different in the pro challenge, than his own ride in the Greens that he knows well and is just working on showing off the horse's spectacular jump.

Diva98

Nov. 17, 2004, 11:49 AM

Thanks for the video link - it was very cool to watch.

My understanding of the class is that it is judged on the rider's style and ability to ride a good hunter round. Not necessarily on the horse itself - but on the overall round and the rider's effectiveness and style.

DMK

Nov. 17, 2004, 11:57 AM

Yep, it should be required that you watch that video before posting on this thread. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Not hard to figure out why he won, is it? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Magnolia

Nov. 17, 2004, 12:05 PM

Watched the video, 2 nice rides. But he does duck just a little bit over a couple of jumps. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif But it's like saying Cindy Crawford has a mole. Doesn't seem to matter....

But Peter, if you are reading this, next time duck TOWARDS the photographer so we can see your pretty face.

Silly Mommy

Nov. 17, 2004, 12:19 PM

To those who asked (and LH mentioned him as well), the picture on page 3 that I posted was from the late seventies of none other than the god of hunter riders himself, Rodney Jenkins. Go back and look http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Not me, I'm too much of an eq percher http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif PR...

DMK

Nov. 17, 2004, 12:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
Watched the video, 2 nice rides. But he does duck just a little bit over a couple of jumps. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif But it's like saying Cindy Crawford has a mole. Doesn't seem to matter.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, it's like that betamethasone cream Ludger was using. Gotta get me some of that duck and that cream! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Glimmerglass

Nov. 17, 2004, 12:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ABBA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
To ride like that in the real world ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Humor me. What does it take to "ride in the real world." And what/where is "the real world?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Finally getting back to this thread which does seem to have turned a bit nasty. Obviously from my own comments I didn't read the article closely, but that isn't the point.

Peter has proven his talent not only in the hunter ring but in jumpers too, great. What I was commenting on was the first glance at the picture: it simply looks wrong to have such a physical presentation. This has nothing to do with him as clearly he can adjust his body style to the needs of the ride and win the class.

Real world? I would consider riding outside - you know the place where the walls aren't and there isn't a rectangle to define the area - as being the real world. As has been stated before if you employ the typical hunter positions while riding cross country over coops, logs, real fences [which anyone who jumps in hunters SHOULD be capable] and like you will be begging for injury. It simply is impractical to be sprayed over the back of a horse and ducking your head as such.

Clearly this where I break ranks (and I'll be the first to admit - "who the heck am I") and say that just because George Morris says its right doesn't mean its pretty or effective. It wins points in an artifical series of rules that don't have application to riding as it originated: outdoors. Do you see one foxhunter - short of those who came from the hunter ring - riding like that?

No I'm not saying foxhunters are better riders then others, more practical yes. I do think they are one of the few remaining aspects of sport that is true to the origins of why man finds it necessary to ride on the back of a horse.

Nikki^

Nov. 17, 2004, 12:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by GirlNextDoor:
Don't worry about followers. if they don't have the correct basic position, this position is not going to work for them and they will not be rewarded for it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You couldn't have said it better. So what I should do is just stick to what I have been taught and not worry what the followers are doing? I should just let them ride that way and just stick to GM's teachings.
Sounds like great plan to me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Your message sounds like what George Morris told me. Practice correct EQ and do not imitate the pros.

DMK

Nov. 17, 2004, 12:45 PM

That's all true glimmer, but I think we can safely say most top riders wouldn't ride a horse out in the field the same way they ride a known entity on ideal footing (one hopes) in the hunter ring. They wouldn't even duplicate that ride in the jumper ring!

Maybe all pics of wroking hunters and ducking pros should include the disclaimer "CAUTION - DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS AT HOME, WE ARE PROFESSIONALS"? It couldn't be any more far fetched than letting us know McDonalds coffee is hot! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Magnolia

Nov. 17, 2004, 12:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>"CAUTION - DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS AT HOME, WE ARE PROFESSIONALS" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. And I've tried that duck method, and the massive leg slip and have gotten splatted a few too many times. I'll be filing litigation against Mr. Pletcher and the Chronicle shortly for KNOWINGLY promoting unsafe riding technique. George Morris can be my expert witness.

ABBA

Nov. 17, 2004, 12:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pirateer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ABBA/

Those that can (Peter Pletcher et. al.) do.
Those that can't (?????) critique. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are my HEEEERO! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why thank you sweetie! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

monstrpony

Nov. 17, 2004, 01:03 PM

So, can one of you H/J people tell me exactly how the rider's position in this picture is enhancing the horse's jump? The claim seems to be that this rider has such good body control that he can do this to enhance the horse in specific ways. Can someone explain how that works? This is a sincere question.

Glimmerglass

Nov. 17, 2004, 01:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DMK:
That's all true glimmer, but I think we can safely say most top riders wouldn't ride a horse out in the field the same way they ride a known entity on ideal footing (one hopes) in the hunter ring. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fully agree about pros .. what is always disappointing is that so many other riders (newer riders in particular) do try to emulate that as being correct riding 24/7.

As I said flipping through the Chronicle in any given issue and that same style - which will increase anyone's injury rate outside of the hunter ring - makes up most of all photos. That is from the editorial with show reports to sale advertisements and congratulatory ads.

Logically does this make sense? A riding style that takes skill to be the best at exhibiting yet really isn't practical, safe or in my view overly attractive. It begs the question of why would this sport have an artificial style of riding (no other way to describe it) that is vaulted as being visually perfect yet isn't practical.

fleur

Nov. 17, 2004, 01:37 PM

monstr-
one of the things i noticed with PP's position in the video is that his horse got all of its leads over the jumps instead of after, and you can see how his ducking influences the horse to land first on its non-leading foot. that's just one example of how i, a non-showing non-pro non-jumping-4' rider, can see pretty clearly how his position affects what the horse does. also, i think it's incredibly easy for a rider to get in a horse's way and stifle the exaggerated knees-to-eyeballs and round bascule. hunter riders of PP's caliber know how to avoid this, and it isn't by thinking about how their eq looks. JMO http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hucklebug

Nov. 17, 2004, 02:25 PM

I bet he loves draw reins and ear pom pons!

Sigh

(this is my attempt to say you guys are going to hell in a handbasket about as fast as my draw rein thread)

Hucklebug

Nov. 17, 2004, 02:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DMK:
It couldn't be any more far fetched than letting us know McDonalds coffee is hot! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude, that McDonalds coffee woman was a friend of my granny's and she was in the hospital for ages and had several skin grafts and the **REASON** the jury awarded her so much money originally is because McDonalds put its own witness on teh stand who said (ford pinto anyone?) Sure, we knew the coffee could burn people badly, but we surveyed customers and the reason people buy mcdonald's coffee is because it's hotter than anywhere else, so we keep it hotter than the other places that sell coffee because that's our niche (or something like that) and the jury verdict was only something like McDOnalds profits for one day off of coffee...I studied this in law school a while ago, so it's a bit hazy, but please don't go trying to equate these two things. It's not a fair analogy unless PP were quoted as saying "sure, I know I"m jumping in bad form, but I took a survey of judges and they said the reason they pin my horses so well is because they like my ducking" and then kids started trying to immitate it.

DMK

Nov. 17, 2004, 04:59 PM

dude? Dude?! DUDE?!?! My lawyers request that you retract that insult. They will be contacting you shortly to discuss damages. At the very least, settlement checks will NOT be mailed to any address in the Valley.

And yes, I know there was some validity to the case, as incredibly off topic as this subject is, but I also believe they reversed a huge portion of that judgment on appeal.

Yeesh, never mind "Do not try this at home, we are professionals", let's just default to "Sense of humor optional".

EventerAJ

Nov. 17, 2004, 06:22 PM

I'm with Glimmerglass.

Now I know I'm an eventer, therefore my opinion is of no value, but I'm going to say it anyway.

From what I gather in this topic, it seems that a horse cannot jump its best without the rider laying on the neck, ducking, leg swinging, and crest releasing. A horse cannot jump round, in classic winning form, without the rider exhibiting serious position faults. Huh?? What's (literally) wrong with this picture?

Did this whole rider-on-the-neck-about-to-fall-off looking thing happen because it makes the hosre *appear* to jump better than it does? As a learning rider on a back-cracking style horse, I went through a phase where I looked like today's standard hunter rider: legs swinging, laying on the neck, butt in the air, just to stay with the rocket jump. These position flaws were NOT intentional, just the result of being a 12 yr old only riding for 5 years. However as I gained more experience, I learned to ride that jump properly. I didn't interfere with my horse, but I also didn't endanger my safety (a good thing on xc, trust me!). Today, I cannot see ANY benefit in DELIBERATELY riding in such a "style." IME, a horse can jump just as well with an effective rider position (yes, even by hunter standards of being super round, knees square to eyeballs, straight over the fence).

Also, I'm a bit disturbed by Fleur's post, stating that PP might be ducking to force his horse onto the proper lead. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I have never, ever had any trainer (h/j, eventing, or otherwise) tell me to throw my body off the side of a horse to dictate a lead (though I admit I've been yelled at for the problem on occasion!). A horse should change leads by leg pressure and looking in the new direction. Throwing the body is a big no-no in any book I've ever read (quite a few I might add).

I know I'm just a silly eventer who still has use for a good leg and "defensive" riding. I still value a good-jumping horse, and admire the true sport of h/j and equitation.

Some personal pics to illustrate:
The early days: laying on the neck (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/aljohnd/Horse%20Pics/casey_hunter_trials.jpg)
I like to refer to this pic as "my horse can jump inspite of my ineptitude"

Not laying on the neck quite as much (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/aljohnd/Horse%20Pics/mayfestsj.jpg)

Look Ma, no crest release! (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/aljohnd/Horse%20Pics/ralphhillclinic.jpg)

Another pic (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/aljohnd/Horse%20Pics/waynesj4.jpg)

Nice and straight (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/aljohnd/Horse%20Pics/SilverwoodShowjump3.jpg) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Now I know, these pics are not 4'. And, I know there is a LOT more to a successful hunter round than jumping the fences. But to me, the jumping form is the most important. I *know* a hunter round is judged on the horse's performance, but the horse can't do it alone! Personally, I don't buy any picture of myself where I look like I'm falling off, unless it's for amusement or learning purposes only. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

ps- This is not meant to be a critique or attack on Pletcher or his wonderful horse. I merely wonder if the horse would jump just as well (and present a more pleasing picture) if ridden differently.

buschkn

Nov. 17, 2004, 06:29 PM

Fabulous horse AJEventer!! Gimme gimme!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

sfrider

Nov. 17, 2004, 07:02 PM

Ohmigod EventAJ, you EVENT with this horse? He looks like he belongs in our world. Send him over. No offense to eventing, but you don't need jumping style points.

Hucklebug

Nov. 17, 2004, 07:02 PM

Back off buschkn! I want the horse! It's mine EventerAJ. buschkn beats her horses and doesn't feed them and rides them in draw reins and ducks to the side when she jumps, if she even bothers getting off their backs at all....I'm just sure of it, despite the fact that I've never met her. GIve me the horse, please, pretty please.

Hucklebug

Nov. 17, 2004, 07:04 PM

Shoot, now I have to fight off sfrider for the horse too! This might be harder than I thought.

SAM

Nov. 17, 2004, 08:17 PM

Nikki, I would love to see what you would look like over the same jump with the same horse. Are you now the GM expert?

lauriep

Nov. 17, 2004, 08:37 PM

Over the course of the past few months, I have had the chance to watch A LOT of hunter classes, beginning to end, at some major shows. My overall impression, and not picking anyone out specifically, is that I had trouble watching the HORSES because I was so distracted by the major gyrations of the riders. They do, as a whole, make a lot more effort than is necessary. The other thing I observed, and I have watched good horses for a long time, is that most of them DO NOT have these incredible bascules that one would think they do when watching these performances, or seeing their pictures. I saw way too many inverted, snappy kneed, splinter bellies, and some very "in vogue" names fell into this category, IMO. And trust me, I know a good bascule when I see one, I've rubbed some of the best. I honestly think that the hunter division, like the equitation division, is losing site of what makes a great round. A hunter rider should never detract/distract from the horse's performance. Too many do.

And please, don't compare RJ to anyone out there today. His category of riding is still so far beyond anyone who has come since, and his talent was so natural and unschooled, that it still stands completely alone. And he never distracted from the horses' performances.

Pocket Pony

Nov. 17, 2004, 09:38 PM

Good post lauriep! I haven't rubbed elbows with the "best", and I DO understand the difference between the hunters/eq/jumpers and the needs for each. But I remember watching the big classic at Menlo with my friends and we were all commenting on a BNT's over-exaggerated release to try to show off a bascule that just wasn't there.

I'm not the caliber of PP or anyone else in his league. I never will be. But I appreciate good riding, and a nice performance by both horse and rider. That doesn't include throwing your body here, there, and everywhere. Just what I LIKE TO SEE. Regardless of how it does or doesn't show off the horse...

fleur

Nov. 17, 2004, 09:50 PM

AJEventer, i'm sorry to disturb you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif what i really meant is that the "ducking" look is a product of actions taken to influence the horse, including putting some weight into the non-leading leg side (i've been taught this trick in lessons for getting leads). not "forcing" a horse onto the correct lead.

i might be wrong, i'm just going by what i've learned from reading a lot, talking with many hunter riders pro and ammy, going to a lot of shows, riding (but not showing) hunters, and of course reading COTH http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Illyria

Nov. 17, 2004, 10:04 PM

Of course, there are other ways to land a lead without ducking, twisting or leaning http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif , but that horse on the video did not look easy to ride at all, and what a great gallop to the single oxer. I remember the first year he won he had to ride another really difficult horse - he rode it first and it didn't look that bad, but then the other three couldn't get it to go as well as he did.

ADambra

Nov. 17, 2004, 10:05 PM

I agree with Fleur.. whether it's thought of as correct or not, if a rider shifts weight to one side in the air they can influence the lead the horse lands on.

Silly Mommy

Nov. 17, 2004, 10:23 PM

lauriep-

I hope you don't think I was dissing RJ - he was poetry on a horse - the picture I posted was to illustrate that (what I consider) the BEST hunter rider may not (at the particular moment the snapshot was taken) be showing GM equitation form.

I haven't been out there much lately, but will be soon, and haven't necessarily seen what the pros are riding like. I didn't watch much at Saugerties, or Saratoga last year as I tend to do my thing and then take care of my beastie, then I'm done. I did see a horse in my Pregreen hack go ballistic and still win the class! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

lauriep

Nov. 18, 2004, 04:49 AM

No, SM, I know what your experience/relationship was with RJ and Mandarin. I understand what you were saying, but I didn't want it interpreted that because HE also did what we are seeing out there, that it was then more acceptable. His talent was just so enormous that it isn't fair to make that jump! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MAD

Nov. 18, 2004, 04:50 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Silly Mommy:
lauriep-

I hope you don't think I was dissing RJ - he was poetry on a horse - the picture I posted was to illustrate that (what I consider) the BEST hunter rider may not (at the particular moment the snapshot was taken) be showing GM equitation form.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not mean to hijack this thread (or comment on yesterday's or today's form), but I posted a link on SBT's Picture Thread that has another picture of RJ.

Duffy

Nov. 18, 2004, 04:59 AM

Which is incredible, as RJ is/was, I might add. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ESG

Nov. 18, 2004, 05:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Madeline:
I have a bit of a problem with the concept that 4' is a major effort for a good horse. Especially 4' on manicured perfectly level footing with carefully measured distances. Any horse with a modicum of athletic ability can jump 4' without breaking a sweat.

This is incorrect. There are plenty of horses out there that are successful at 3' and 3'6", but never make it past there. And when you look at the paucity of entrants in the regular working hunter divisions, I'm rather surprised that you'd make such a sweeping statement. The stats don't bear you out. 

What seems to be happening, here in the land of nine gazillion 3' and lower divisions, is that there is an effort to create the illusion that the horse is making a REALLY BIG POWERFUL JUMP. I guess that's what passes for brilliance when you don't use any pace. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now there I agree with you. But then again, that shouldn't be a surprise. Hunters, after all, are all about perception, and "the look". Thanks, but I prefer real performance in my horses rather than the perception of it. Which is why I do jumpers. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ESG

Nov. 18, 2004, 05:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by GirlNextDoor:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I am guessing that all of you who are knocking Peter Pletcher's style have never actually seen him ride. He is amazing to watch. There is no one softer or in more control than he is. He is soooooo smooth and fantastic. He is really a pleasure to watch.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It also helps that Peter is very choosy about the quality of horse he rides. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But there is no mistaking the fact that the man is a master at presenting and truly showing a horse.

Now if we could just get him to stay in the middle! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif And if you were able to see his head, I'd say there's a good chance you'd see that his mouth is open, too, another facet of his unique style. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ESG

Nov. 18, 2004, 05:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fleur:
it's a huge difference between your untight leg slipping back over presumably less than 3' and PP choosing to bring his leg back to influence his pro hunter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm intrigued; exactly what assistance does a rider's leg draped along the horse's barrel and pointing towards his butt render to its jump? I must know! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Magnolia

Nov. 18, 2004, 05:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>"Sense of humor optional". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DISCLAIMER: The original poster of this topic was in no way commenting or expressing commentary on the equitation faults of our exaulted pros. She holds no responsibility for those who may or may not be offended by the postings that come up on this topic. All riders are wonderful and there is room in the horse world for a diversity of styles, horses and tack implements.

From now on, Duckers will be referred to as correct lead motivators. Peter Pletcher was not ducking or showing bad form - as a tragic result of his correct lead motivation position, his head appeared chopped off in the aforementioned photo.

ESG

Nov. 18, 2004, 05:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Yeesh, never mind "Do not try this at home, we are professionals", let's just default to "Sense of humor optional". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about, "Here's a picture of an incredible horse and of what works for Peter"? Or maybe "Sense of humor required" for posting here? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Magnolia

Nov. 18, 2004, 05:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I'm intrigued; exactly what assistance does a rider's leg draped along the horse's barrel and pointing towards his butt render to its jump? I must know!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is landing velocity acceleration position. I acheive that from time to time and when accompanied with a prick from the spur at the apex of the jump, it generally concludes with 2-3 strides of extended gallop/crabby horse face upon landing from the jump. It is most effective if one lands and grabs the reins roughly immediately. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

ESG

Nov. 18, 2004, 05:36 AM

Ahh, so that's it. Guess PP must have thought OP needed a boot in the a$$. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

ESG

Nov. 18, 2004, 05:39 AM

For those of you who may remember, Peter had an incredible mare several years ago named "Extra". Big red mare with such a big jump and incredible hang time that most pros wouldn't (couldn't) ride her. Peter did, and so well that he was a member of the winning Nations Cup team that we sent to Ireland to the Kerrygold (Dublin) horse show. This was somewhere around '99 - 2000. And FWIW, he definitely did not ride that mare the way he's pictured on OP.

I miss Extra. She alone was worth traveling to the shows to watch. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

fleur

Nov. 18, 2004, 05:43 AM

hey, like i said, i learned from watching and being taught by hunter riders and trainers. i've never ridden a working hunter and unfortunately i probably never will, so i don't attempt to analyze exactly what each muscle shift a rider makes is supposed to or will achieve. i just know that hunters is not about the rider's position (equitation) or making sure the horse makes it clear and fast through the course (jumpers...), it's about making the horse look like a brilliant superstar, and as has been said multitudes, when i see someone ride a horse that is looking like Ocean Park over that fence, they could be riding backwards for all i care, they are getting the job done in the hunters!
magnolia, i definitely never got the impression that you were critiquing his position. i just think it's naive (not of you) to look at one split-second image and determine that the rider is riding dangerously or badly. regardless of what idiots might try to copy that rider, it's unfair to act like PP is some kind of travesty of modern riding. that's all http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

fleur

Nov. 18, 2004, 05:44 AM

esg, i think your last statement just proves that PP is an extremely versatile rider who knows how to adjust his form to benefit the horse... i remember a great thread about ummm i think paige johnson? about how in a COTH ad she was riding a jumper and a hunter, and her positions were radically different, but they were what was needed for each horse.

ESG

Nov. 18, 2004, 06:05 AM

I think I remember the thread about Paige.

But I still want to know why Peter's leg is lying along the horse's side and almost kicking him in the butt. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Nikki^

Nov. 18, 2004, 06:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SAM:
Nikki, I would love to see what you would look like over the same jump with the same horse. Are you now the GM expert? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a very immature question. Since I don't like that style and given some reasons why I don't like it, you assume that I cannot ride.

I just want to tell you that last night I did a 3'3 verticle 3 stride to a 3'3 gate and it was smooth, flowing and my EQ was awesome. Leg at the girth, nice release, Kintero lifting me out of the saddle, in the middle of Kintero. How do I know? The Barn Owner, who teaches watched me.

Why don't you ask TheJenners how hard I work on my EQ? She watched me ride all the time before she moved to Washington. Ask her how hard I worked on my horse to get him to where he is now?

I just don't like the style over the fence. How many times do I have to say that? I'm not going to copy it and stick to what George Morris teaches.

Tiramit

Nov. 18, 2004, 07:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Over the course of the past few months, I have had the chance to watch A LOT of hunter classes, beginning to end, at some major shows. My overall impression, and not picking anyone out specifically, is that I had trouble watching the HORSES because I was so distracted by the major gyrations of the riders. They do, as a whole, make a lot more effort than is necessary. The other thing I observed, and I have watched good horses for a long time, is that most of them DO NOT have these incredible bascules that one would think they do when watching these performances, or seeing their pictures. I saw way too many inverted, snappy kneed, splinter bellies, and some very "in vogue" names fell into this category, IMO. And trust me, I know a good bascule when I see one, I've rubbed some of the best. I honestly think that the hunter division, like the equitation division, is losing site of what makes a great round. A hunter rider should never detract/distract from the horse's performance. Too many do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great post Laurie!

My impression of the whole wild hunter rider look is that the rider should be invisible to promote the horse, and flopping over the neck isn't a subtle look. A great hunter is supposed to look like he / she could negotiate the course on his or her own, explode over the fence, but make the ride look pleasurable and fun for the rider. To me, this look does not promote that image.

While reading this topic my eyes have wandered over to the photos I have on my office wall. 3 Olympians caught at the same point on top of a fence. And any one of the three - Chris, Beezie, or Greg - could win an eq class jumping those massive fences, under pressure. And please don't tell me that Gem Twist and Royal Kaliber didn't make powerful jumping efforts!

There was an article years ago where some pro (sorry, can't remember who) explained the hunter style as showmanship to trick the judge into thinking the horse was making a larger effort than it was....

DMK

Nov. 18, 2004, 07:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tiramit:
There was an article years ago where some pro (sorry, can't remember who) explained the hunter style as showmanship to trick the judge into thinking the horse was making a larger effort than it was.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, the answer is just ... Smarter judges! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Tiramit

Nov. 18, 2004, 07:30 AM

Brilliant!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

lauriep

Nov. 18, 2004, 07:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fleur:
it's a huge difference between your untight leg slipping back over presumably less than 3' and PP choosing to bring his leg back to influence his pro hunter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm intrigued; exactly what assistance does a rider's leg draped along the horse's barrel and pointing towards his butt render to its jump? I _must _ know! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ESG, for once I absolutely agree with you!!
Not any benefit that I am aware of!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender

Nov. 18, 2004, 08:04 AM

Guys..I think it's time to take a step back from this bashing of one of the most succesful hunter riders in this time. He wins..and wins a lot I might add. He's a professional, in all senses of the word..so when it comes down to it, who gives a s%@# what he looks like? The judges don't!
It's very childish and catty to insult someone who's never done anything but be succesful and professional. If you don't like it..THEN DON'T WATCH

lauriep

Nov. 18, 2004, 08:10 AM

wward, I think this is a much more general discussion of the "style" today, with Peter just being used as an illustration. I don't think anyone has any doubts as to his talent or success. But the current picture offered a springboard to a discussion about this subject. When someone refers to something Peter is doing in this picture, I think it is really a more general reference to what is being seen in the hunter ring today.Not personal.

And the not watching isn't an option, since so many do it. If you watch hunters, this is what you see.

Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender

Nov. 18, 2004, 08:17 AM

Then the thread needs to focus more on the style of "professional hunter riders" and not on a single picture of Peter Pletcher.
And yes, the style today is exaggerated. Might not be the way I chose to ride my horse, but it also doesn't give me a platform to stand on to say "it's wrong!, it's not what George Morris would do" blah...I would give my left arm to have the caliber of horses that PP has, AND to be able to jump 8 4 foot fences as beautifully as he does.

Glimmerglass

Nov. 18, 2004, 08:24 AM

Wward, read what lauriep said. She is on target with the discussion as it has long since migrated from that original picture. I never think anyone (at least myself) questioned PP's skills.

Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender

Nov. 18, 2004, 08:29 AM

I disagree...but, it's not worth an argument.

jumper11

Nov. 18, 2004, 08:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SAM:
Nikki, I would love to see what you would look like over the same jump with the same horse. Are you now the GM expert? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a very immature question. Since I don't like that style and given some reasons why I don't like it, you assume that I cannot ride.

I just want to tell you that last night I did a 3'3 verticle 3 stride to a 3'3 gate and it was smooth, flowing and my EQ was awesome. Leg at the girth, nice release, Kintero lifting me out of the saddle, in the middle of Kintero. How do I know? The Barn Owner, who teaches watched me.

Why don't you ask TheJenners how hard I work on my EQ? She watched me ride all the time before she moved to Washington. Ask her how hard I worked on my horse to get him to where he is now?

I just don't like the style over the fence. How many times do I have to say that? I'm not going to copy it and stick to what George Morris teaches. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nikki maybe you could post a picture or two of your fantastic eq? I'm sure we could all learn a thing or two from you... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Magnolia

Nov. 18, 2004, 08:40 AM

Hey, lets not bash Nikki. Obviously she values the good form and detail promoted by George Morris (do we get mad when George Morris critiques riders? No, we pay $4.95 to buy our PH to read his critique). The rider in that photo is clearly not demonstrating good form, but has earned that right to be less than perfect many times over. And from the video and other pics, the photo was clearly an anomaly, and apparently distressing to some who thinks the pros should be demonstarting good form.

I hope the MODS close this topic before any more people pick on anybody else, and I hope that the Chronicle chooses slightly better photos that do both horse AND rider justice in the future.

Diva98

Nov. 18, 2004, 08:44 AM

Well said Magnolia. You summed up my feelings. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nikki^

Nov. 18, 2004, 08:56 AM

Wward, please understand that SOME people do not like the style. Peter is a great rider and so are the pros of today. They have great horses because they worked hard to get to that point. I'm not saying he's a horrible rider. Seeing that video showed me that he's a beautiful, quiet rider and does a wonderful job.

What I'm agreeing with lauriep, Tiramit, ESG, Glimmerglass is that we just don't like how the form over the fence looks.

jumper11

Nov. 18, 2004, 09:03 AM

well Magnolia, while I might pay $4.95 for GM's critiques, I would not pay that for Nikki's...I'm not "bashing" her I just think that if she is going to state the type of equitation that she does not like, well then she might consider posting pictures of her idea of proper eq. I would assume someone who can publicly critique a professional, must also have pretty damn good eq, so I would like to see a picture of NIkki. How is that bashing? I'm just curious.

Magnolia

Nov. 18, 2004, 09:18 AM

I think we all have a pretty good idea of what Nikki views as good equitation. She makes it quite clear that she subscribes to the GM view point, and I believe most of us know what that looks like. I imagine that a photo of Nikki that she was proud of would have her leg under her, eyes up and no ducking.

And I think that anyone has a right to say that PP form is not the greatest over that one fence, although it would not be correct to assume that he was not a good rider. I am quite certain that ANY person outside of our sport might even be alarmed and think he was falling off.

Nikki^

Nov. 18, 2004, 09:26 AM

Jumper 11: Ok, I'll get a picture for you. I don't have any when I school right now. I'll get the BO to take pictures of me over the 3'3 verticle. I wish I had someone take some pictures last night. I was on point.
I also noticed that you are laughing at me. Very mature of you I must say.

Also one of my goals is to ride like Jim Kohn. That guy has such a wonderful style over fences.
Mrs. Mary Maris Chapot and Frank Chapot also have wonderful styles. Don't forget Miss Kathy Kusner's jump over the 7 foot wall.

This is the style that I like.

Tiramit

Nov. 18, 2004, 09:31 AM

Nikki, you don't owe anyone anything, least of all someone who is simply baiting you for sport. You expressed an opinion and support for a classic style we all have heard about before. Nothing wrong with that. Just keep schooling and hopefully we'll see you at the top some day. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Nov. 18, 2004, 09:34 AM

Nikki (and everyone else, for that matter) is entitled to have her own opinion on what she thinks is an example of good/bad equitation, regardless of her own abilities (and for all we know, she may be a talented rider). And just as she can have her own opinion, so can everyone else-- agree with her, disagree with her, whatever.

She never bashed PP and she certainly never claimed to have perfect eq herself, she simply stated her preferences with respect to style.

EventerAJ

Nov. 18, 2004, 09:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SunnyBunny:
Back off buschkn! I want the horse! It's mine EventerAJ. buschkn beats her horses and doesn't feed them and rides them in draw reins and ducks to the side when she jumps, if she even bothers getting off their backs at all....I'm just sure of it, despite the fact that I've never met her. GIve me the horse, please, pretty please. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Buschkn, sfrider, and SunnyBunny thanks for your comments on Casey. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif He was such a fun horse to ride, he put his heart into every jump!

As for why he was an event horse...LOL. He loved jumping in general, but XC was what he lived for. We didn't place too well in hunters (locals & B shows) because of what happened between the fences... no probs w/ auto changes, but 90mph barrel-racing the corners wasn't quite what the judges wanted. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif That's not saying we were unsafe, just a little unsightly until I learned about important things like BALANCE and rhythm. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Not bad though for a 15.1 foundation-bred QH, though huh? He wasn't the greatest mover, but never had any problems making strides! Casey was 15 and 16 in those pictures, he's 21 this year.

Every rider should have a horse like him. My job was to steer, hang on, and enjoy the ride. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~AJ~
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't saddle a duck.

Duffy

Nov. 18, 2004, 10:06 AM

Sounds like a TON of Fun, AJ! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nikki - there is absolutely NO reason you should feel it necessary to post of picture of yourself. As others have posted, you are entitled to your opinion of style and form, just like anyone else.

NO ONE on this thread is bashing PP as a rider, some are just questionning/wondering about the style/form of MANY of today's top professional hunter riders.

PP can ride any of my horses any and all the days of the week. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jumper11

Nov. 18, 2004, 10:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
Jumper 11: Ok, I'll get a picture for you. I don't have any when I school right now. I'll get the BO to take pictures of me over the 3'3 verticle. I wish I had someone take some pictures last night. I was on point.
I also noticed that you are laughing at me. Very mature of you I must say.

Also one of my goals is to ride like Jim Kohn. That guy has such a wonderful style over fences.
Mrs. Mary Maris Chapot and Frank Chapot also have wonderful styles. Don't forget Miss Kathy Kusner's jump over the 7 foot wall.

This is the style that I like. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be awesome Nikki, better yet why don't you just send it straight to GM himself.. What I'm not allowed to use this smiley now http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif without people getting offended... chill out Nikki. I seem to remember you "critiquing" professionals in the past. SOrry if I find it amusing... Tiramit, if you think I'm "baiting" Nikki that's pretty hilarious as well... No she doesn't owe me anything, but if all of you think that you have the right to critique professionals, then I think I have the right to question your critiques.. Imagine that... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Cindeye

Nov. 18, 2004, 10:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>"Sense of humor optional". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DISCLAIMER: *snip*From now on, Duckers will be referred to as correct lead motivators. Peter Pletcher was not ducking or showing bad form - as a tragic result of his correct lead motivation position, his head appeared chopped off in the aforementioned photo. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Howling! Were you born in Berkeley? We don't have any dead people in politically correct CA, only metabolically challenged people!

DMK

Nov. 18, 2004, 10:20 AM

It does seem to be lost on you (and many others) that you can respectfully critique something without belittling or mocking that thing, though, doesn't it?

Magnolia

Nov. 18, 2004, 10:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>We don't have any dead people in politically correct CA, only metabolically challenged people!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, that's my excuse for being fat, not dead. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

jumper11

Nov. 18, 2004, 10:23 AM

Oh silly me, so that's what you were doing, and here I thought comments like, "it looks like his head's chopped off, and that looks horrible" were actually negative critiques.... WOw, I guess I'm just confused then eh?

Cindeye

Nov. 18, 2004, 10:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>We don't have any dead people in politically correct CA, only metabolically challenged people!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, that's my excuse for being fat, not dead. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In Berkeley-speak, you're not fat...you're vertically challenged (i.e. too short for your weight) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

lauriep

Nov. 18, 2004, 10:42 AM

Nikki, please don't post a pic of yourself, because the vultures will rip you to shreds and hurt your feelings.

As has been said, you were perfectly appropriate in stating that you don't like the style of a great many of the hunter riders today. I don't either. And you don't have to be an expert rider to make the statement. Nor do I have any intention of posting a picture to illustrate my ability, or lack thereof. Preference is simply that, a preference.

And jumper11, I'm gonna tell you again, Peter's picture simply prompted a discussion of style that seems to have become way too exaggerated. No one is saying he can't ride the hell out of a hunter or a jumper.

And, BTW, it is these popular pros that the kids will be trying to copy. Is that really what we want?

GM's SYSTEM of riding, it is much more than a "style", is one developed over 40 years of studying and tweaking a collection of ideas from the best we've ever had. It works because it is not extreme in any way, and always puts safety of horse and rider at the top of importance. And, it is a system, that if copied by a rank beginner, will put them in a position to stay on and discipline a stopper, a run out, or just a bad jump. I'm not sure the same can be said of what we see today.

DMK

Nov. 18, 2004, 10:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jumper11:
Oh silly me, so that's what you were doing, and here I thought comments like, "it looks like his head's chopped off, and that looks horrible" were actually negative critiques.... WOw, I guess I'm just confused then eh? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but apparently it was lost on you that you weren't singled out.

Still, to me, there is a difference between mocking an individual's opinion and abilities, versus making a humorous observation about a picture while still respecting that individual's talents and contributions. But I'm just silly that way.

Blinky

Nov. 18, 2004, 10:49 AM

Another one bites the dust.....

ADambra

Nov. 18, 2004, 10:58 AM

Hmmm.. I wonder how many of the people on here that are ripping apart Peter's "equitation"** are the same people who complain about how today's eq classes are all just posing in the air and not teaching the young riders how to really ride?

(**I thought most here agreed that the word equitation doesn't mean form, but how you ride your horse?)

jumper11

Nov. 18, 2004, 11:01 AM

yeah Blinky you sure told me... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif lmao... HEy if Nikki wants to post a picture of herself why shouldn't she? Obviously she is quite proud of her abilities. Lauriep you can repeat yourself all you want, I'm simply stating my opinion, as you were stating yours. By repeating yourself, I still will most likely not agree with you that y'all were politely critiquing this rider... Right.

Hucklebug

Nov. 18, 2004, 11:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Nikki, please don't post a pic of yourself, because the vultures will rip you to shreds and hurt your feelings.

As has been said, you were perfectly appropriate in stating that you don't like the style of a great many of the hunter riders today. I don't either. And you don't have to be an expert rider to make the statement. Nor do I have any intention of posting a picture to illustrate my ability, or lack thereof. Preference is simply that, a preference.

And jumper11, I'm gonna tell you again, Peter's picture simply prompted a discussion of style that seems to have become way too exaggerated. No one is saying he can't ride the hell out of a hunter or a jumper.

And, BTW, it is these popular pros that the kids will be trying to copy. Is that really what we want?

GM's SYSTEM of riding, it is much more than a "style", is one developed over 40 years of studying and tweaking a collection of ideas from the best we've ever had. It works because it is not extreme in any way, and always puts safety of horse and rider at the top of importance. And, it is a system, that if copied by a rank beginner, will put them in a position to stay on and discipline a stopper, a run out, or just a bad jump. I'm not sure the same can be said of what we see today. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LaurieP: I love reading your posts because they're always so level-headed and thoughtful. Even if I don't agree with you (I do agree with you here) I respect your posts enough to read them through carefully. Thanks for being a thoughtful and educated person adding to this forum. I look forward to reading your opinions.

Nikki^

Nov. 18, 2004, 11:11 AM

Wow Jumper11, you sure are having fun over on Catchride making fun of me. What's wrong? Are your little immature friends to chicken to say it here? What was the title: "Move over GM, Nikki is the next know it all."
My little friend who still goes there(I don't know why) e-mailed me the link.

I really like how they post as Mr. Nikkibaby, making fun of my raise I got at work and how they think PP is taking lessons from me.

I find it all too funny! You are a bunch of bored little girls over there. You get your kicks from that?

How about I do post my picture and make you eat your words? You have to tell me if you like it with a side of rice or potatos. Or better yet, how about you say it to my face? Wanna meet at the Atlanta Spring Classic or will you chicken out, thinking I'm stalking you?