US Stud Fees

[CindyGen]

I recently got the stallion guidebooks from two registries and I was looking through the stallions. There was a nice looking, newly liscenced young stallion that has not yet done his performance test and is only provisional right now. I thought, gee he looks nice, maybe I'll call for information on him. Then I see his studfee is $1800 - for a new young stallion that hasn't done anything yet?

I'm just wondering, I keep seeing those threads about how the average US stallion only books a handful of mares a year, and I'm wondering if perhaps they aren't just priced out of the reach of the average mare owner in a lot of cases? Now I know that it costs a lot of money to promote a stallion, but I wonder if lowering studfees would generate a larger number of breedings and therefore more income and more exposure for the stallion. From my point of view as a smaller breeder that bred five mares this year, it's cheaper to use frozen semen than breed to stallions whose fees are in that kind of range. Even with a premium mare discount, many of the young stallions that I like would still cost me over $1500. I did a stallion auction this year and we sold every single breeding and had people begging for more. I did frozen semen this year and spent about the same money vet-wise as with shipped semen, and I have four mares that we got in foal with one dose of frozen semen at around $500 a dose. If the stallions in the US were in the $1000-$1200 range though, I'd be more likely to consider shipped. Food for thought? Discussion?

[CindyGen]

I recently got the stallion guidebooks from two registries and I was looking through the stallions. There was a nice looking, newly liscenced young stallion that has not yet done his performance test and is only provisional right now. I thought, gee he looks nice, maybe I'll call for information on him. Then I see his studfee is $1800 - for a new young stallion that hasn't done anything yet?

I'm just wondering, I keep seeing those threads about how the average US stallion only books a handful of mares a year, and I'm wondering if perhaps they aren't just priced out of the reach of the average mare owner in a lot of cases? Now I know that it costs a lot of money to promote a stallion, but I wonder if lowering studfees would generate a larger number of breedings and therefore more income and more exposure for the stallion. From my point of view as a smaller breeder that bred five mares this year, it's cheaper to use frozen semen than breed to stallions whose fees are in that kind of range. Even with a premium mare discount, many of the young stallions that I like would still cost me over $1500. I did a stallion auction this year and we sold every single breeding and had people begging for more. I did frozen semen this year and spent about the same money vet-wise as with shipped semen, and I have four mares that we got in foal with one dose of frozen semen at around $500 a dose. If the stallions in the US were in the $1000-$1200 range though, I'd be more likely to consider shipped. Food for thought? Discussion?

[RoseWood Stables]

Amen, say it again http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif...I am a small breeder with only two mares being bred, I do not qualify for a lot of the discounts and paying an arm and a leg for the stallion I REALLY want to breed to is just not feasible right now...If prices were to be lowered or more discounts were made available more of the smaller breeders would be happy campers (er, breeders)
Jessie

[nhwr]

I think $1800 is a lot for unproven stallion. I think $1800 is a lot for a proven stallion, as well. You can breed to some of the finest proven stallions in the world (via frozen) for under $1000. Granted there is no LFG, but if you have a proven mare who is an easy breeder, I'd be incline to try that rather than pay more for a young guy with a large price tag.

[CindyGen]

So what about some of the US stallions selling semen by the dose ?

[Tom King]

This might not have anything to do with the price of tea in China or in this case the stud fee amounts in the US but just as a point of possible interest we have 2 ten pound dogs with $2000 stud fees. I just don't see a few hundred dollars one way or the other being high on the list of priorities in selection of a stallion to breed a mare to. There are so many other factors involved to produce the best possible foal. If a breeder is not trying to produce the best foal that they can it seems to me to raise questions that the breeder maybe should ask themselves.

[suzette]

Have you thought that maybe the SO didn't really want to get a lot of breedings for this young stallion? Perhaps the plan was that they would rather only breed to one or two mares at a high price, and spend his time and energy on training. Perhaps their plan is more aimed at a future breeding career, and they are thinking to create an 'upscale' image for him when the time comes to stand him seriously?
This may just be a 'marketing ploy'.

[Ashemont]

We know what it's like to be a small breeder on a budget... so we offer both of our import-quality stallions at very reasonable prices WITH LFG. And our one stallion has produced nothing but Premium foals with 4 crops on the ground! We also will sell frozen semen by the dose... and we are not alone. If you do your homework you will find quality stallions of most WB bloodlines available under $1000.

[HFSH]

This is one of the reasons that Warmblood Breeders NA (http://www.warmbloodbreedersna.com) was formed, to offer more effective means of breeding, by uniting stallion owners and mare owners.

I agree with CindyGen. I bred 3 mares this year with frozen, and 2 with fresh. The fresh cooled were 'deals' that I found, either early discounts or auction-type deals.

Some stallion owners think that they have to have a high price or people think something is wrong with the stallion, or that the value of the foal is diminished. I disagree.

I think stallion owners will find that overpricing will bite them in the tush. With the popularity of frozen semen, SO's will have to find a way to fall in line with affordability or they simply won't get bookings.

[LEP Enterprises, LLC]

Its really a bummer that by the time a foal hits the ground, you probably already have about six grand into it. About a third of that amount is the stud fee. Reducing the stud fees would help a little bit with the costs, but the other big costs are the cost of caring for the mare for 15 months, and vet care (both getting her pregnant and caring for any little emergencies).

[CindyGen]

I don't think this is an issue of quality over cost, since as has been said above, frozen semen from some of the best stallions in the world is available for under $1000. I just think it's a shame that a nicely bred young stallion here would not be affordable to me when a proven stallion in Europe would be by frozen.

[Fairview Horse Center]

We have kept Nevada's fee very reasonable at $500. with a LFG for 30 days from birth. His fee has continued to attract very nice mares - mostly TB and European Warmblood branded and Approved mares, but also nice mare of a variey of breeds. We sometimes begin with a breeders least promising mare, but when they like their Nevada foal out of her, better than the foals bred with Imported frozen semen out of their best mares, we move up and up http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Yes, I work VERY hard for each breeding, but I would rather get 30 mares a year and get those foals out there being "living, breathing, & walking advertisements"

[Nootka]

i have to say.. I thought about using Nevada a while back (the mare fell through http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ) I have seen quite a few of his babies one including a nice bay 2 or 3yr old a few weeks ago. He is a great stallion for a great price. This baby was sweet and perfectly built. He also seems to produce lots of white also... which is also an added bonus http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Nootka]

do you think i could put any more alsos in that last sentence? LOL sorry about that

[dray]

I'm another small farm. We imported a Hanoverian stallion (tested in Moscow; great scorse, great movement, a real charmer to be around). He is eligible for Book I with RPSI, so that's the registry we are going with. His first foals are on the ground this year. All are superb. Mostly out of WB mares, but also some from TBs and so far, can't really tell the difference. His foals out of the same mares that foaled my Diamonds and Freestyles and Calettos are better than the high price stud fee foals.

In reference to Darlyn's post, our stud fee is also $500. I would love to have 30 mares at this fee. We have two mares booked and paid this year. Semen is great; ships well.

LFG, two year contract. I don't expect a lot of breedings until, like Darlyn, I have the foals out there being seen. It takes time. So this is the counterpoint for young stallions. Many people talk about wanting affordable prices, but many also still seem to really want the big name horses for their mares.

It takes a lot of time. Due to foaling, rebreedign and taking care of a foal on the brink if critical care since May, I missed the spring show season. Hoping to take Otschag to shows in the fall. Of course, I'm in Texas, so .......

It's a tough time. I am hearing that a lot of mare owners are leaving them open. Maybe the economy is a factor as well. I also hear that it is improving...

DonnaCarson Farm (http://www.sportequine.com)

[Bea]

I've come to the conclusion I'm feeling grumpy today, so my apologies in advance. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But my thinking is along the lines of Farmdad's. In the discipline we breed for the stud fees of the stallions we use are between $2500 to $5000. $2500 for a stallion with a proven performance but no babies of performance age yet, $5000 for performance and production record. And that makes sense to me, it acts as birth control. Prevents us from breeding willy nilly and ending up with 20 foals in the pasture there's no market for.

And obviously the above stud fees are nothing compared to some other disciplines. I'm amazed to hear good proven stallions can be had for under $1000. And my initial feeling is that's a really bad thing.

I guess if someone is breeding sheerly as a hobby, doesn't expect to recoup their money, and is willing and able to provide that foal with a home for life, I say stud fees should be as low as possible. But just about anyone could spend $500 on a stud fee. The real question for me is will there be a market and good home for that foal. If the stallion the OP mentioned is unproven, I'm glad his stud fee is set high. There's already too many foals/horses without good homes.

[dray]

What is OP?

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

I think a lot of SO with stallions DO price them higher because they worry that folks will not breed to the stallion if it is cheaper. I know a HUGE part of the stallion fee is covering costs of marketing him. It is a shame this stallion is priced at $1800 but I think many people shy away from young and unproven stallions, and if their price is too low, more people shy away. The stallion I bred to is young, unproven, and it was his first year standing to public but, he comes from some of my favorite Trakehner bloodlines. I feel he was reasonably priced and Frodo is worth every dime I spent. Thre are so many factors involved here and I believe one of the biggest factors is the fear of breeding to a younger and unproven stallion. It is a huge chance, if breeding isn't a big enough chance already (read: crapshoot), and the price probably reflects the kind of clients and mares they want to breed this guy to, rather than just getting his foals on the ground, as many as possible, to advertise for him. BTW, I am not agreeing with the SO in this situation, I am just trying to find a reason for this high stud fee. Also, in my situation, I had a price range for a stud fee higher than what I paid for this particular stallion, by a few hundred, so I had the capability to breed to a more seasoned and proven stallion, I don't regret, not for one second, choosing the stallion I chose. Sorry for the ramble... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Laurie@CBF]

RWS there are A LOT of stallion service auctions where people can get top stallions at a fraction of their stud fees. Early in the year they were listed and updated here on the COTH mulitple times. Savvy mare owners will "stalk" the auctions.

If a mare owner has a premium or sport approved mare many SO will offer good discounts. Some SO offer substantial discounts for repeat business. A few SO were offering FREE breedings this year to stimulate interest in their very nice stallions.

I agree with Farm dad - mare owners should be working on trying to find the best stallion that would cross well with their mare - NOT necessarily the cheapest. Stallion owners shouldn't have to hand over their top stallions services on a platter to every mare owner. It is their perogative to pick and choose their fees and their clientele. As LEP stated - the stud fee is only part of the equation. If you can't afford the stud fee - can you afford everything else that goes along with it?

I am "price conscious" and do use a lot of frozen semen. I also bid on the SSA auctions. I don't mind paying a higher end stud fee if I know that the management (and stallions semen) is top quality. When management is poor - costs can quickly become much higher than the actual stud fee http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. There are a lot of "parts" that need to completed before you get the whole picture of what the final cost is.

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dray:
What is OP? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Original poster

[nhwr]

When breeding dogs, you get a litter, not a single birth. Upkeep is much less expensive. And the offspring are marketable at 6 weeks to a much large market than the horse market. Comparing stud fees to the horse world just doesn't cut it.

You can breed to Rubinstein for $1800 (though I have heard he didn't freeze well), you can breed to Weltmeyer for about $600, you can breed to Argentinus or Fabriano for $1000, you can breed to Ferro for around $1200 (and his frozen is almost as good as fresh), Werther, Hohenstein and Don Frederico for around $1200. These stallions are renown because they have produced excellent offspring. While I agree that the stud fee is a small part of the cost of a foal, when you can have an inexpensive stud fee and a stallion with a proven record, it is hard to justify paying a lot for an unproven stallion.

[lyrical lu]

Last year I inquired about a stallion who's fee was over $2,500. I asked if they offered discounts for an FEI mare...they didn't. So I didn't book with them. They said they were trying to keep the quality of mare's up. I think that's a good thing but I had a quality mare and they lost the booking.

Funny enough this year they offer discounts. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

I just wanted to point out that having lots of foals out there advertising will only be a good thing if the stallion can consistently produce outstanding foals - even out of mediocre mares. That said, I have been thrilled with the quality of mares Nevada has attracted - certainly mare owners with enough money to breed to the most expensive stallion out there, but they chose Nevada. I think what they do in Germany of making sure the new "hot young stallion" is bred to SPS mares the first few years of his standing at stud gives a false impression of his value as a stallion. I want to see what a stallion can produce when he has been bred to a variety of mares, including some average ones that need improving (notice I didn't say crap). Then you can truly see his worth.

[nhwr]

In the Netherlands, they intentionally breed young stallions to a variety quality of mares to get a feel for what the stallions can improve. This information is available in the stallion's test report. It is really interesting.

[Ashemont]

A good stallion should be able to improve any mare he is bred to... and ours do http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But we also breed our own mares and thus have babies to sell, so our income isn't limited to stud fees. We strongly feel that good stallions should be available to every breeder. There are lots of mare owners who put everything into buying the best mare they possibly can. So offering top stallions at reasonable fees is good for everyone IMO. The fact that our stallions have consistently produced Premium foals is proof that it works.

[Equine Reproduction]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Farmdad-changing to real name Tom King:
This might not have anything to do with the price of tea in China or in this case the stud fee amounts in the US but just as a point of possible interest we have 2 ten pound dogs with $2000 stud fees. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm going to start breeding dogs!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Sporthorse South]

I once asked an SO why the fee for her newly imported stallion was so high. I thought her reply was interesting: "If I price my stallion like a bargain-basement horse, he is going to attract bargain-basement mares. I'd rather keep his price a bit high and only get 5 breedings to quality mares, than to get 20 breedings to mediocre mares." Her philosophy is working so far - the stallion got far more bookings his first year than she expected, and most of them are high quality warmblood mares.

[okggo]

In my stallion shopping, I looked for stallions that sired high quality foals out of mediocre mares and high quality mares. To me, that is a HUGE testament to the stallion and his abilities to reproduce himself and improve upon the mare.
Since a lot of small time breeders have TB mares that are "average janes," seeing an amazing foal by the mares side speaks wonders for the stallion.
Stallions that you can cross with anything and still have a nice quality foal are of the highest regard IMHO.

[nhwr]

Breeding is a risk anyway you slice it. It goes without saying you don't know what you will get or if you will get anything at all. That being said, isn't the idea of picking a stallion selecting one that will improve the mare, any mare (even the nice ones). I don't blame stallion owns for wanting to use nice mares with their young stallions, but I would expect a significant reduction in the stud fee for assuming this risk. The best way to promote a stallion is to has lots of quality offspring on the ground by a range of mares. High stud fees on young stallions are a hinderance to this.

[Sporthorse South]

I agree that it is impressive to see a stallion produce a stellar foal out of an "average jane" mare, but I think it is more important to focus on raising the overall quality of our young horses. We can really help stack the deck in our favor by using better quality mares, and I would rather see U.S. breeders produce 7 or 8 very good foals out of 10 very good mares, than 1 or 2 exceptional foals out of 10 so-so mares. This is the "depth of quality" factor that often sets the European breeding programs apart from U.S. programs.

[nhwr]

Don't disagree, Sporthorse. But, the way to do this is have stallions who are real improvers. Of course, if you are going to breed you should use the best mare you can. But in reality, there are budgetary considerations. If a mare didn't go to Rastede, does this mean I shouldn't breed her? Should only SPS candidates be bred? One of the most interesting stastics to me is to look at not just how many approved sons, SPS candidates or FEI competitors a stallion has produced, but look at the damlines of those horses. Were they from main book mares? If so, that stallion is an improver.

A young stallion that is breeding to mostly high quality mares gives a skewed perspective. You can't really know if they are improvers or just riding along on the mares coat tails. And what happens (as statistics say it will) when some below average offspring are produced? If the mares are of superior quality, it will reflect poorly on the stallion (rightly or wrongly). It seems to me that because an individual stallion can have more of an impact than a individual mare on the quality of a breeding program, it is important to know whether he can really improve the popualtion. This can't be done by cherry picking.

And to address the OP's point, if you want to add to the depth of quality, it makes more sense to go with a known improver. If the cost is lower (as it often is with frozen), it is a no-brainer.

[showjumpers66]

My two cents ...

I see more people breeding to stallions based on other reasons than just stud fees - i.e. popularity, locality, band wagon, trend (color), etc. There are people who breed to the cheapest stallion around, but the costs of inspections and shipping semen nip most of that in the bud in the sporthorse world. Someone who breeds their approved TB mare to an approved warmblood stallion with a $500 stud fee is not equivilant to the person with the backyard grade mare who drives their mare down the road for live cover to a stallion with a $150 stud fee.

The biggest problem I see is that mare owners do not know how to choose the right cross for their mare. Even some of the big farms make terrible crosses on their expensive, imported mares ... usually by breeding to the farm stallion rather than the stallion who would cross best with the mare. It would be really awesome if the inspectors would spend more time educating the mare owners about conformation and what to look for in movement. RPSI has been really great in that respect.

I do bargain shop. I do take chances on young, unproven stallions who show outstanding potential and who have wonderful pedigrees. I start by making a list of the traits I want for the mare that I am breeding and then make a list of candidates. From there, I start eliminating candidates. Stud fee and the contract are final considerations. I have had great success with this.

Most hunter/jumper trainers want 2 year olds in the $5,000 range and broke 3 year olds in the $10,000 range. The market is there, but just far less than what we are spending to get foals on the ground. I try to price my exceptional youngsters much higher and my average youngsters at market value.

In regards to the comparison with breeding dogs, it is not the same. I showed and bred Akitas for 10 years and was a top 5 breeder (with only 3 adult dogs) for 3 years. The costs involved in breeding a litter can be about the same as producing a foal depending on the circumstances (transporting the bitch to the stud, the stud fee, c-section, etc.), but typically is much less. Usually, there are multiple puppies. Many times the stud contracts guarantee litter size. A show puppy is priced at an equal price to the stud fee and the pet puppies are usually priced at about 1/3 of that amount. Typically, only half of puppies bred are show quality although many breeders sell pet quality puppies as show quality.

[sketcher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suzette:
Have you thought that maybe the SO didn't really want to get a lot of breedings for this young stallion? Perhaps the plan was that they would rather only breed to one or two mares at a high price, and spend his time and energy on training. Perhaps their plan is more aimed at a future breeding career, and they are thinking to create an 'upscale' image for him when the time comes to stand him seriously?
This may just be a 'marketing ploy'. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It may not even be a marketing ploy. They may get requests to breed to him and aren't really at that stage in his 'career' yet. Instead of saying no, maybe they have set a price that they would be crazy to turn down if someone wanted to breed to him that badly.

[Sporthorse South]

Nhwr, I understand where you are coming from, but I think that improving the overall quality of our mare base will have far greater impact on the depth of quality of our foal crops than a few "improvement" stallions will have.

Don't get me wrong - I love a good "improvement" sire, but the OP asked about the high stud fees on some stallions, so I'm trying to look at this from the stallion owner's point of view. She knows that by attracting higher quality mares, the greater the chances that her stallion's foals will be high quality. If he breeds a lot of lesser quality mares, the greater the chances that his foals will be of lesser quality also. Even if he truly improves on every mare he breeds, the odds are that the more "so-so" mares he goes to, the more "so-so" foals he will have. She is simply hoping to stack the deck in his favor by trying to get good quality mares for him.

[Bea]

It seems to me the term improver really simply means good producer. And good producer means the stallion is simply a good horse. The statistics of the situation in which a stallion bred to good mares produces some below average offspring are the same statistics at work when a stallion is breed to below average mares, and produces some below average offspring. It's proven the odds are better when a good stallion is bred to a good mare. I understand some SOs feel it's important to get as many babies on the ground as possible. But I think if they do so by breeding to below average mares, they are increasing the odds those babies will be below average. And thus the statistics game will need to be run in a certain manner, a large pool of babies will be needed in the hopes that one or two will reach a standard above the mare. By breeding a small number of good mares, one or two good babies also might be had. It's the tortoise and hare scenario. But I think the first scenario has more potential to backfire, and lead to the stallion getting the reputation of not being a good producer.

[okggo]

showjumper66- you said something that really hit me (in a good way). The need to educate mare owners (that don't otherwise know) on how to select a good stallion to complement their mare. I think that is a fantastic idea, and one that would be really helpful.
I know my mare has faults and am pretty much aware of what they are, but when selecting a stallion it's hard to decide which attributes are the most important to try to improve on. My girl has the typical TB neck set- low and not much top line- and the high withers. This has improved with weight, but it can never improve beyond her limitations in conformation. I tried to select stallions that I thought would suit her, but had no basis other than my own knowledge on what I should really be looking for.
I did post here a lot and it was helpful, but I would have LOVED for the stallion owners (or some other resource) to get back to me and say tactfully your mare needs x,y,and z and this boy can really help with that- or not.
The ONLY comment I got on her was that she was "wasp wasted" from a photo I have of her running as a 2 year old. DUH- she is thin, not done growing, and tucked up racing fit.
Sorry for any typos- no time to proof read.

[Terrie]

OKGGO - Great point. That is what I want to hear from a stallion owner too - the good, the bad, and the ugly. If a SO said "I don't think your mare and my stallion would cross well" and they explained why, I would be more impressed with their honesty and willing to come back when I had something suitable (or send people there).

I think some stud fees are high, but I also stop to think about the inspection costs, membership costs, vet costs - not just stud fees. The whole thing is extremely expensive - isn't this sport in general though. I can't guarantee my mare can even carry a foal to term. Should I spend the $$$ to see if she can? I don't want to spend too much on her first breeding because of this.I can understand why SOs keep the fees a little higher - they have to cover vet bills, advertising, showing, etc.

Most important to me is to see the offspring out of TB mares that are similar to mine. I would love to see more pics of the mares on stallion sites, not just the offspring. I would also like to see offspring older than 3 or 4 not just foals.

Just another point of view.

[nhwr]

Breeding isn't as simple as you take this stallion plus that mare and get a nice foal. There are fabulous looking stallions (on paper, in terms of bloodlines and real life, in terms of type) who end up don't producing much in the way of offspring. Then there are stallions who were bred for one purpose that end up not working for that, but having a huge impact in other ways (like Donnerhall). Yes you should start with a good mare base. But because a mare will only produce one foal a year, whereas a stallion will produce multiple foals a year, what a stallion will actually produce is much more important, in terms of depth of quality for the overall population. You will only know what a stallion produces by seeing many of his foals on the ground. You breed the best to the best, for sure. But with a younger stallion there is more of a risk. IMO, that risk should be reflected in the stud fee. After all the SO can always maintain the right to approve mares for breeding. That would make more sense to me.

And there are only 2 ways we are going to improve our mare base. 1)Import better mares. 2)Breed better offspring (so we are back to that improvement sire thing again). So if we are going to really get depth of quality, we need to be using stallions who improve what they are bred to.

[mbp]

Sporthorse South - I have to say that line of reasoning doesn't really make sense to me, from a business or breed improvement standpoint.

First - why import a stallion if he is not going to be a good cross with the mare base? If his only real niche is with imported SPS mares, why do we need him here? What function does he fulfill?

Second - we NEED to have stallions covering mares so we can see their get. I know you said they were pleased with the bookings - but how many are you talking about? Thirty? Fifty? One Hundred? Stallions here often cover so few mares that you can't really begin to tell whether they ARE improvers or not. More importantly, you can't tell WHAT they improve or don't improve, because you don't have the statistical information.

Third - you are going to get a much better, faster improvement to the mare base if you bring in stallions that are suited to improving the mare base (like Europe has done and like the AQHA did - two sets of relatively successful results in short time frames) and let them do their job, at a reasonable enough cost that you see the results on the ground, than you will by importing a mare here and a mare there. It doesn't help the mare base that much, imo, to have the stallions just breed to a very few imported SPS mares . Umm, if that is what there job is going to be here, why shouldn't we just leave the SPS mares in Europe, let them be bred there where they WILL have access to lower stud fees and produce a more economic and diverse product, and bring over the best at performance age time? If the goal is just to get a few really nice individuals - not to really dig in and become a part of the breeding industry here and help shape and support it - then why bring the stallion over?

Fourth - why would a newly imported stallion or a new young stallion have such a great claim to being entitled to 'only the best' mares (and, for that matter, what stallion station/standing experience does their owner, the SO, bring to the equation to justify enhanced fees - do they have the experience **and I don't mean, oh I have a great vet, I mean THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE operating a successful stallion or station successfully**)? I would worry right off the cuff that kind of SO is going to be just a bear to work with. They just don't put out "I'm hear to work for my mare owners" vibes to me, whereas there are a LOT of stallion owners who do put out those vibes.

Fifth - it makes me (this is me personally, just an opinion) worry about the objectivity of an SO in evaluating their stallion and their stallion's actual production qualities when I see this, IMO, overemphasis on *needing* super quality mares. Let's face it - is every nice stallion a good nick for every Premium Mare? Of course not - so when I see a stallion owner trawling for just Premium Mares, and not so much for mares that all have certain categories of qualities that will cross nicely with their stallion, I feel like either they don't know what they are doing or they are relying on the mare to fill in for the stallions failings. I have 3 (soon to be 4) very nice, very different mares, approved with different registries, all successful on the line, all clean xrays, all a joy to ride but they are DIFFERENT. I very distinctly remember years back talking to a stallion owner and when I asked as about the types of mares their stallion crossed best with I got a very stony "well, nice mares of course, I suppose you just have a tb mare?". It was intimidating to a newer breeder (despite my 25+ years with sporthorses at the time). But now my reaction would be - that guy is not worth a serious mare owner's time.

Sixth - US based stallions need to have get on the ground that people can see if they want to take the bookings away from frozen. If you breed just a couple, or ten, or even twenty, mares - you are not getting enough get on the ground for your horse to be able to sell himself. After the "ooooooo, aaaaaa, newness factor, if you don't have some fantastic performers (not just premium mares/foals - but performers) that get lots of national attention, you are not going to keep the interest in your stallion vis a vis the guy that was just imported THIS year, with his that much newer bloodlines and his that much newer test results, etc. If, however, breeders run into your get at testings, shows, etc. on a more consistent basis and whether it is an exceptional individual or not, they recognize repition of important traits for them - they will seek out your stallion. If they are sophisticated breeders at all they like to see get and get from more than one mare or more than one mare type.

Seventh - I don't go along with the point that the depth of quality in Europe has come from only breeding premium mares. I think someone from the Hannover region mentioned that the region produces something like 9,000 foals/year? I think that's in the ballpark. That's one region. No way is every one of those foals going to Disneyworld. But because they cross a young stallion on a lot of mares, they get enough get to see if he is doing his job and to see what mares he works with. Whether someone goes performance or testing route with their stallion, one thing neither of those tells a mare owner is what the stallion will put on the ground. A European type of approach, where the stallion covers quite a few mares, operates as almost second round of testing - and it is the info that mare owners really want and need. It is the proof of the stallion being a good breeding stallion - not just another really nice horse.

Obviously - everyone is going to feel differently. I think, though, that the approaches taken by, for example, GW Ranch in giving excellent bargains the first years with their stallions, generally has a positive payoff for the breeding community as a whole

[mbp]

Dray - I would bet that when you have your stallion approved with RPSI bookings will pick up. I think most mare owners are still most comfortable working through a registry and RPSI is getting more and more support.

[okggo]

I would also like to point out the people (like myself) that are breeding their sole mare to have a foal to keep for themselves. I cannot afford a top quality sport horse. I have a nice TB mare that I purchased for a very decent price. Breeding her to a quality stallion and keeping the offspring gives me a chance to own a well bred sport horse prospect. If the stallion pool was limited to high stud fees and restricting mediocre mares- people such as myself would not have the opportunity to produce a nice foal.
This world (aka the breeding one) is very new to me and I am dazzled, thrilled, and amazed by the stallions out there. Mind boggling, actually. I looked at the for sale sections on the web-sites of these stallions and would not even have been able to afford a weanling. But for a reasonably priced stud fee, and the associated costs of breeding- I will (hopefully) have a foal that will potentially be just as nice.

I didn't just breed to the stallion I choose b/c I think it's a nice stallion. I bred my mare to him b/c it's an awesome stallion that when crossed with TB mares that look a heck of a lot like mine- has produced amazing foals. The owner gave me a reasonable stud fee, was VERY accomodating, very informative, and literally held my hand through the whole thing.

So, I totally forgot what my point was- but the breeding "market" as far as mare owners is concerned certainly runs the gammet of both types of mares and knowledge of the breeders. A stallion that can cover many of these aspects for a reasonable fee is a jewel in the nile- as is the stallions owner IMO.

[Holly Jeanne]

Like Okggo, I was breeding to keep. Now, I have a very nice mare Anglo-Trak (not just my opinion) but, low and behold, couldn't get her pregnant. I have a nice TB mare but she's not quite the mover the first is. I booked with the first and never could get her pregnant. Thankfully, the stallion owner gave me a discount to try them both at once so I was able to get my foal last year and a second this year since the AT mare slipped. I sure am glad SO ok'd my doing the second mare even though she wasn't quite as nice! My yearling filly isn't as fancy a mover as I would have liked but she sure can use herself and I've been told she will be a "very nice future dressage horse". The new filly is a fancier mover. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm very happy with them both and I'm grateful to the SO for making it affordable for me and granting me the opportunity to raise my own. I brought her flowers after the second was born. Her comment was something like, I really like making clients happy. I'm happy! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The Girls (http://web.centre.edu/dajones/)

[dray]

mbp,

I think you are right. Did you watch his video clip on the web site? The foals are amazing. the vets who AIed the TB mares in other states and the one who AIed the QH mare in Houston are saying these foals are some of the nicest Warmbloods they have ever seen.

It will be nice to get the approvals behind us. I really wish AHS would accept his tests, but they won't because it wasn't done in Germany. My imported mares are AHS eligible and would probably do very well at the inspecitons. At least the RPSI is supportive of themarket we have here in America. They do a veyr good job with that.

Donna
Carson Farm (http://www.sportequine.com)

[CindyGen]

Ok but say mare quality isn't an issue, say I have an imported premium mares. Let's say that I have the opportunity to breed to Stallion A that is a proven horse in both his offspring and in a performance career OR to Stallion B who is a young stallion that has very nice conformation and a very interesting pedigree. Say they are both stallions that would compliment this mare. If the fee for the younger stallion was more of an "introductory fee" I would be more inclined to breed to him, otherwise, if I have to pay the higher fee anyway - why would I not go with the proven stallion instead, what is my enticement to use the younger stallion?

[nhwr]

Donna, I have always wanted to know why you don't have a pedigree chart for your guy on your website (or am I thick and I just missed it)? I read the discussion of his bloodlines but I have never seen them layed out. Am I missing something?

PS He looks very nice.

CindyGen,

That is my point exactly. And if you know a stallion produces nice get with OK mares. What will he produces with a premium mare?

[CindyGen]

See but you don't know what he'll produce, he has no foals on the ground, at least not the young stallion.

[nhwr]

No, I am agreeing with you, CindyGen. In fact, I found myself in this exact scenario before I chose a stallion. I have a mare who is an SPS candiate (maiden). There were a few young relatively unproven stallions I could have bred her to but I chose to go with a proven stallion by frozen (even though there is more risk because she is a maiden) because I had the chance to evaluate the proven stallions get and the stud fee (by frozen) low. I could buy 3 doses of frozen to this proven stallion for about the same cost as the unproven stallion's fee.

[Sporthorse South]

Mbp, some of what you say might make sense for many stallion owners, but not for this one. As she has said to me - She is not in this to make money, she is not in this to put as many foals on the ground by her stallion as possible, and she is not in this to help owners of low-end, mediocre mares get a foal on the ground as cheaply as possible. She believes that she has a quality stallion. She wants him to breed to quality mares (and no one said anything about him being restricted to only SPS mares - although she does offer a discount to premium mares). If she opens his book up to just ANY mare, and lowers his stud fee, he is going to get a lot of mediocre mares, which increases the odds that a higher percentage of his foals will be mediocre. Again, no matter how good a stallion is at "improving" his mares, the more mediocre mares he breeds, the more likely he is to put lesser quality foals on the ground. From the stallion owner's perspective, it is far better to have 20 premium foals out of 20 mares than 20 premium foals out of 200 mares.

Also, no mare owner likes to hear that her mare isn't "good enough" for a stallion. By having a relatively high stud fee, this stallion owner automatically weeds out many lesser-quality mares, for the simple reason that people aren't as willing to spend money on low-end mares as on high-quality mares. It saves her from having to tell people that their mare isn't quite the quality she is looking for.

I totally understand stallion owners like GW Ranch, Hilltop, Rainbow Equus, Silverwood, etc., who are in the game to make money, and who will book as many mares to their stallions as they think the horse can handle, but I also understand the other point of view. Some stallion owners just don't want - or need - a multitude of their stallion's foals on the ground. They'd rather have a few really good ones out of really good mares, than dozens of so-so ones out of so-so mares.

[CindyGen]

Yes exactly. Take Sporthorse South's example - I'm pretty sure I know the stallion she is talking about. I got the video of him and I liked him, I called his owner and she did offer a discount for my premium mare, but not enough of one to make much difference for me. There was another stallion that I liked for the mare that had several foal crops on the ground and has been shown successfully in Germany, available by frozen semen for under $500 a dose I chose to go with the frozen. The mare is in foal on one cycle with one dose and I have around $700 total in that breeding right now. There is of course no LFG, but by the time I ad collections and shipping costs, another dose of the frozen to breed her back would still cost less if she lost the foal. I liked both stallions very much, and I may still use the first stallion at some point, but I will wait until he's proven himself more if I have to pay full price. I bought four doses of semen from the stallion I used for less than one studfee for the younger stallion. If the SO is concerned with only attracting quality mares, perhaps she could offer a larger discount for premium mares or mares that produced premium foals in the past, or offer frozen semen at a per dose price to select mares.

[CindyGen]

I'd also like to point out that the stallion I mention in the previous post is not the same one that I originally posted about, nor is he for the same mare.

[showjumpers66]

After breeding to Budweiser his first year at a tremendously low fee and having a fabulous foal out of a mediocre mare, I am sold on picking traits my mare needs not necessarily from the stallion but from his pedigree. When breeding to a proven stallion, I look for those traits in the offspring.

Soon after Budweiser was imported, a similarly bred stallion became available. His stud fee was $2500. So, you have two almost equal stallions ... similar pedigree, Budweiser was actually much more attractive in conformation, both are approved and 100 day tested, Budweiser had better scores, both are unproven. Who would you choose???

[carosello]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sporthorse South:

Also, no mare owner likes to hear that her mare isn't "good enough" for a stallion. By having a relatively high stud fee, this stallion owner automatically weeds out many lesser-quality mares, for the simple reason that people aren't as willing to spend money on low-end mares as on high-quality mares. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heck there are always people out there with money to throw away. I think if they want the stallion bad enough they will breed their beloved dobbinette to him regardless. To me the SO should screen the mares if they are concerned about quality. Raising the price does not effect quality..it just raises the bar for who can and cant afford it.

Im in CindyGen's shoes too. I have two nice mares, one a maiden and one a proven producer. I would have liked to bred the maiden with fresh but frankly the stallions I like for her are over $2500 or not in my registry. So we are going frozen semen and even purchasing 4 doses to some really nice stallions (3) I still have spent less then a stud fee and collections. This is a premium imported mare who was also an Elite auction foal and mare so her quality is not an issue.

[dray]

The pedigree was on the site. I never know what Mr. CF is doing with the web site. I'll check it. I can email it to you if you want.

Donna

[okggo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I totally understand stallion owners like GW Ranch, Hilltop, Rainbow Equus, Silverwood, etc., who are in the game to make money, and who will book as many mares to their stallions as they think the horse can handle, but I also understand the other point of view. Some stallion owners just don't want - or need - a multitude of their stallion's foals on the ground. They'd rather have a few really good ones out of really good mares, than dozens of so-so ones out of so-so mares. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only thing I would like to point out is that those stallions DO have really good foals out of so-so mares. You don't have to have an "elite" mare to be able to have great off spring by these stallions. Look at Art Deco- his offsprings performance record speaks for itself. That is a stallion that really produces well.

My mare has AMAZING race pedigree, is tall, built very well, and very athletic. A pasture accident left her lame before I had a chance to start competing her. Even though she may be a "so-so" mare by these terms, she is still a very nice mare that when crossed with a compatable stallion will (I HOPE) throw a high quality foal.
I'de just be curious what would make a stallion owner that only breeds to "high quality" mares turn a mare down? Seeing the mare, inspection scores- or lack thereof, pedigree, breed?

[TKR]

Stallions should be "improvement" stallions because they are standing at stud. A stallion should represent their breed in a top class way and also be consistent and prepotent enough to mirror their own traits in their offspring to a high degree. If they are not, then they should not be bred! So many times we look at a pedigree or an individual or their competition record and expect they will pass on these traits, which perhaps they should. However, not every lovely individual that has a pedigree or show record will also be prepotent or consistent. The SO can't just blame the mare owners or mares. Of course, you would like to breed to quality mares that will enhance what the stallion brings to the table and the mare is a HUGE component, no doubt. However, the stallion owner can set a criteria for the mares and still keep the stud fee down and reserve the right to turn down a mare in a tactful way by way of the criteria. I wonder if the sport industry will ever reach a point as the Thoroughbred industry has, where there will be some sort of clearinghouse or agents who will represent a contingent of stallions and offer reduced fees or present the SO with "offers". These stallions are owned mostly by syndicates who sell their shares and seasons, but it's an interesting concept. Just because you pay a high stud fee does not insure the mare is great quality, it just means the owner can afford it. And, a super quality mare may not produce it -- even though it does improve the odds. "Matching" stallions and mares is very important and I'm not sure that is effectively done many times.
PSG

[Sporthorse South]

Yes, Carosello, there are always some people who will throw money away, but the fact is that MOST people with lesser-quality mares are looking for bargains, whereas many people who have spent the money for a high quality mares are more willing to spend a bit more money on a stud fee. This is not to say that people with high quality mares don't also love a bargain - as some of you have aptly pointed out - but in general, people that have a good amount of money invested in high quality mares are far less likely to balk at spending a bit more on their breeding programs. I totally understand why some of you opted for frozen semen from stallions based in Europe - heck, I looked into using frozen myself this year - but frozen isn't an option for some mares, or some mare owners.

Again, the OP was asking about why some stallions are priced over the $1000 - $1200 range she prefers. I thought it might be helpful to express the point of view of one particular stallion owner. Also, this stallion owner bought her horse primarily to compete, and the breeding end of the business is secondary to her main objective. She is not interested in breeding him to everything that comes down the pike, so she is using his stud fee as a sort of filter to automatically weed out a lot of requests. Is she missing out on some really good quality mares? Of course she is! But she is also not having to turn down a plethora of lesser-quality mares. Her strategy is so far working the way she hoped it would.

Edited to add: Yes, she has had some inquiries from people with lesser-quality mares, which she has turned down.

[Tiki]

Of course, the other side of the coin is that some mare owners buy the cheapest mare they can and expect the stallion to fix everything that is wrong with her. Since their original criteria is price, some of them believe that the more expensive a stallion, the better and so will breed their junk mare to a very expensive stallion hoping/expecting to get a great foal. Doesn't work that way!

I would rather have a (quality) MMB mare who produces Premium offspring consistently than have a Premium mare who can't produce a Premium foal.

[Equine Reproduction]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by okggo:
In my stallion shopping, I looked for stallions that sired high quality foals out of mediocre mares and high quality mares. To me, that is a HUGE testament to the stallion and his abilities to reproduce himself and improve upon the mare.
Since a lot of small time breeders have TB mares that are "average janes," seeing an amazing foal by the mares side speaks wonders for the stallion.
Stallions that you can cross with anything and still have a nice quality foal are of the highest regard IMHO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EXACTLY!!! Stallions that can produce excellent quality foals regardless of the mare, are, in my opinion, the ones to be sought after. When I look at a stallion's offspring and the foals are only out of top quality mares, it doesn't tell me if the stallion is the one that is contributing...However, if you see top quality offspring out of mediocre mares, THAT says something!

Kathy St.Martin
Mannuscript Farm
Home of the Oldenburg stallions, Mannhattan and Waterford
http://www.mannuscriptfarm.com

[Equine Reproduction]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sporthorse South:
Yes, Carosello, there are always some people who will throw money away, but the fact is that MOST people with lesser-quality mares are looking for bargains, whereas many people who have spent the money for a high quality mares are more willing to spend a bit more money on a stud fee. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't agree with that statement at all. What I see a LOT of is that mare owners with lesser quality mares are often trying to breeding "up". They've gone as far as they can with their mare and she is a much loved part of their family...They want to try and produce a foal that they can continue up the ranks on, past what the mare is able to do. It's a one time breeding, generally for themselves and with no intention of marketing the foal for resale, but to have a riding companion that can perform past what the mare is able to do.

I would say that probalby 75% of the breedings I get are from mare owners who are planning on breeding one time, for themselves. When mare owners ask what my stallions can improve on, I tell them...honestly. I KNOW what their abilities are because they have been crossed on a wide variety of mares...not just the very best mares out there. Sure it would be wonderful to say that my stallions have produced nothing but premium offspring...but I can say that my stallions have produced ALL of their premium offspring out of non-premium mares...and right now, Mannhattan is producing almost 50% premium foals http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I think that statement speaks more about his ability to improve anyway...

Kathy St.Martin
Mannuscript Farm
Home of the Oldenburg stallion, Mannhattan
http://www.mannuscriptfarm.com

[okggo]

Kathy- you just described me to a T!

Also, there is no guarantee if you have a premium mare that it will produce a nice foal- breeding is still a crap shoot. It can be born with some kind of birth defect, etc. etc. But a stallion with NICE offspring on the ground by all kinds of mares, increases the odds in your favor.

I'm just giving my perspective on this as a person who is not involved with the inspections, the scoring, the testing, and other nuances of breeding. So to me a "high quality" mare doesn't mean anything other than it's probably nice mare that I'm sure I couldn't afford. But I personally think I have a high quality mare in her own regard. I would be more appreciative if a stallion owner looked at my mare and said I don't think my stallion would be a good match b/c of x,y, and z rather than just hiking up the stud fees trying to filter the mares that way.

[Erin Pittman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by showjumpers66:
The biggest problem I see is that mare owners do not know how to choose the right cross for their mare. Even some of the big farms make terrible crosses on their expensive, imported mares ... usually by breeding to the farm stallion rather than the stallion who would cross best with the mare. It would be really awesome if the inspectors would spend more time educating the mare owners about conformation and what to look for in movement. RPSI has been really great in that respect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oooh...what a good idea! I do the planning for Horse World Expo University Seminars and that just made me think of a GREAT topic for next year's series. Thanks, SJ66!!

Erin

[pwynnnorman]

Sorry to be so blunt, folks, but I think a lot of what you're saying is a bunch of bunk.

There is a limited number of serious stallion owner/facilities in the performance horse market--nearly everyone else setting high stud feeds are just playing at standing a stallion because they can afford to.

The ones who can't afford to play at it either use the professional facilities or keep their fees reasonable...and what is reasonable is strictly dependent upon:

a.) a limited group of STRICTLY WB-inclined (and very nearly strictly DRESSAGE-inclined) mare owners who are equally at play in breeding to bloodlines they'll never actually use (except to brag about having),

b.) the stallion owner's ability to pay for advertising without getting a return on it (which often has a lot to do with ego, not profit),

c.) the breed of the stallion.

Let me put it another way: WHY do mare owners pay $2000+ (or even $1000+) for babies? A few pay that amount because they have quality, proven mares (or bloodlines that are valuable to that BREED, including WBs) and are looking to resell the foal TO OTHER BREEDERS. A VERY few pay that sum to produce an upper level horse.

So, those sums end up (for MANY, no, no, no I'm not saying for ALL pricey stallions!) having absolutely nothing to do with the stallions get IN COMPETITION at levels that matter one hoot.

The truth of the matter is that the general rule of thumb for a good stallion is that he'll be dead, or nearly so, by the time he makes a name for himself as a producer of performers.

No, not all stallions, but MOST end up that way. Again, the ones that don't have been heavily, heavily invested in by their owners--including putting mucho dollars into campaigning the get, too.

There ARE "breakout" stallions, sure...but guess what? Can you name one, single breakout stallion (not an old European stallion imported into this country after having had Europeans take the get into the upper levels where the stud fee is validated) in this country that...wait for it...DOESN'T have lots of white markings.

What? Where'd that come from?

It's a beauty contest, folks. Y'all rattle on forever about this or that quality, but if you actually do something of a statistical analysis, in the end, it comes down to nothing more than superficial traits.

The average mare owner hasn't a clue about top level performance. Oh, SHE may WANT to brag about it in the bloodlines of her baby, but she'll never actually USE IT. If she did, the American breeding scene would be much, much healthier than it is.

And that is absolutely, positively THE most telling fact associated with this entire issue of pricing stallions.

And, yes, that comes from someone who has stood a CHEAP AS DIRT TB stallion who has produced more foals that have gotten into the upper levels of several sports than probably more than half of the American-bred stallions advertised in full color, full page ads in the stallion issues.

Except for the top echelon of the sport, most of what y'all are saying is based on a foundation of sand. Until the performance horse industry has competitions which add value to young stock, it's just bulls**t, setting "values" on stud fees or babies. Now, if you look to other breeds, like Arabians or Quarter Horses, where those babies' values are actually associated with something REAL...now, that's a different story!

[Ashemont]

And then there are the mare owners who are just looking for a bargain... going for the cheapest stallion they can find.

When we used to donate breedings we always asked for a list of who had bid on our stallion. We always offered him at a reduced fee to them and ALWAYS found out that they had bid on several other stallions. The funny thing is that the stallions were always different types, different bloodlines, etc. The mare owners were just trying to get the cheapest breeding they could with no care to how the stallion would complement their mare! That's when we stopped donating breedings.

And I'd like to point out that Welt Marke has produced all Premium foals out of a variety of mares. He just happens to be extremely pre-potent and every single one of his babies gets his uphill build, straight and solid legs, and world-class MOVEMENT http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Galileo1998]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:

There ARE "breakout" stallions, sure...but guess what? Can you name one, single breakout stallion (not an old European stallion imported into this country after having had Europeans take the get into the upper levels where the stud fee is validated) in this country that...wait for it...DOESN'T have lots of white markings.

What? Where'd that come from?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure what you mean by "breakout" stallion?

[BaldEagle]

Out of my ignorance of the TB breeding rules I would like to ask a rather stupid question (so to speak)...

Speaking about TB's I think that in order to have a foal registered in the JC it must always have been bred by live cover.

Some TB Stallions charge bags of money in stud fees because its to produce future racers.
My question is: Would the owners of those stallions consider shipping semen for AI at a completely different fee knowing that the future foal was not for racing or this is completely out of question ?

[pwynnnorman]

Thanks for asking, Galileo1998, I wanted to get into that more.

While it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get most stallion owners to actually tell you how many mares they booked in a given season--and unlike so many breeds, including, BaldEagle, TB racebreds, H_J_D_CT performance stallions are almost never advertised with information about what specific mares (to show they quality they attracted) were bred to them--those stallions with a lot of "buzz" about them (and with more babies showing in hand) and those stallions whose owner/promoters CAN brag about the numbers in their books are nearly all "pretty" stallions: lots of white markings (Alla C'zar, for example) or pintos or palominos, etc., etc.

That's not saying they aren't GREAT stallions, too...

It's just saying that their greatness has little to do with their popularity or their stud fees...not for a long, long time (as in, not until they are nearly dead--especially if they are just plain brown packages, that is).

[Galileo1998]

Thanks. As for naming one, off the top of my head wouldn't A Fine Romance qualify? He doesn't have any white markings, he was born, bred and raised here and gets enough mares every year that his owner has to close his book.

[KAZOOM]

Has this not been just one of the MOST informative threads ever? I have really enjoyed reading everyone's posts from different perspectives. I bred my sole little ol' OTTB mare a couple of years ago purely to achieve my dream of owning a WARMBLOOD horse which I could not otherwise have afforded to buy, at least not afforded to buy the quality that I wanted. I looked at TONS of stallions. I LOVE stallion shopping and have learned much about pedigrees, etc. through the process. I find it is still just the tip of the iceburg, so to speak. One NEVER knows enough about this subject. I ended up breeding to an unproven young stallion with a reasonable stud fee and my mare produced a foal that far SURPASSED my expectations!!! I also ended up getting "hooked" on the stallion hunt/search process, breeding my mare yet another time and another... sheesh! I bred for myself and then bred to perhaps resell, but I don't think I will find it easy to sell. In my matchmaking, I have found that it has worked very well for me in being able to find an affordable match for my mare by choosing a) a stallion that will improve on my mare's particular weaknesses, looking at offspring from similar mares if any on the ground b) a stallion with no or little show/performance record but excellent pedigree and c) I like to see them in person - temperament is VERY important to me. I could not afford to rebreed her to the stallion I originally bred to, so I am very glad that I seized the opportunity when it was there. I had thought that using frozen semen could get quite expensive with vet fees and there is so much to consider..ie. whether chosen stallion freezes well, the necessity of having a top notch knowledgeable vet in the field to be able to use frozen successfully, etc. From this thread, I am thinking...some of you have no problem getting mares in foal from frozen?? If that is the case, I would be very interested in going that route next time. What do you need in the mare part of the equation in order to achieve a successful frozen breeding? My mare has caught first time every time with fresh. What do you look for when buying frozen semen? Are there stats on stallions' success rates for fresh and/or frozen? What are your experiences?

[pwynnnorman]

Sorry, Galileo, because his owner frequents this BB, it would be less than diplomatic for me to comment on his popularity.

[Bea]

Bald Eagle, I'm afraid I'm not sure what your question is. And I know nothing about TB breeding but I have an assumption about it. Given DNA testing is now available the JC continuing to insist on live cover is done because they believe it protects the economy of the racing world. Anyway, there are JC stallions who ship semen to produce non JC foals, aren't there? But if a successful racing stud is getting $50,000 stud fee and much higher, why would they go to the trouble of shipping semen at a lower cost?

[BaldEagle]

Bea

Thanks for the reply

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
Bald Eagle, I'm afraid I'm not sure what your question is.
Anyway, there are JC stallions who ship semen to produce non JC foals, aren't there? But if a successful racing stud is getting $50,000 stud fee and much higher, why would they go to the trouble of shipping semen at a lower cost? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's why I said that my question was a litle stupid. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

In a way I was just asking to myself if they would go to the trouble of shipping semen at a lower cost in spite of the bags of money they are already making http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The obvious answer seems to be, "no its not worth the trouble". Anyway it was a "nice" possibility wasn't it ? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Bea]

Bald Eagle, I see where you're going. And I might have given you the completely wrong answer. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Maybe they do ship semen at a much lower cost. You could ask on the racing forum. And hope SeaOat is in a good mood. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[carosello]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ashemont:


And I'd like to point out that Welt Marke has produced all Premium foals out of a variety of mares. He just happens to be extremely pre-potent and every single one of his babies gets his uphill build, straight and solid legs, and world-class MOVEMENT http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pat I have seen you make that statement before and the only little tid bits about the RPSI I know are all the foals are called Premium. Maybe it would be more helpful to future clients to qualify that by saying all Premium GOLD, Silver or Bronze (or whatever other name they use) foals are produced. Since all the foals are premium that is really not such a brag.

[Ashemont]

All RPSI foals are NOT Premium. Welt Marke's first crop was Silver and everything since then has been Gold. But there are foals presented at our Keurings every year who do not receive Premiums and, in fact, we have found the RPSI criteria to be more strict than the Oldenburg or Old/NA - ISR ever was.

[CindyGen]

Can we please not turn my thread that has been such a great discussion into this fight again please? Sheesh.

[BaldEagle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CindyGen:
" my thread " <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ops I dindn't knew you "owned" the thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

BTW who is fighting http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[BaldEagle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
Bald Eagle, I see where you're going. And I might have given you the completely wrong answer. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Maybe they do ship semen at a much lower cost. You could ask on the racing forum. And hope SeaOat is in a good mood. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SeaOat likes me a lot. Barbecued. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[CindyGen]

What I meant is that I am the original poster and I started the discussion. I don't want to see it turn into a my registry is better than your registry fight. If it does it'll get closed down.

[BaldEagle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CindyGen:
What I meant is that I am the original poster and I started the discussion. I don't want to see it turn into a my registry is better than your registry fight. If it does it'll get closed down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the info.

I didn't catch that aspect of the "issue". I read somewhere that there was a "postponing" of some sort about those issues somewhere.
I don't know a thing about that stuff. Completely innocent then http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[CindyGen]

Well good now that we have that straightened out http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Since you look like you are into TBs - what nice TB stallions are available to breed for a reasonable fee, say under $2000 for a sporthorse type foal. I have just aquired a TB mare and am considering what to do with her. I may breed her or I may teach lessons on her. She does make nice babies though.

[BaldEagle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CindyGen:
Since you look like you are into TBs - what nice TB stallions are available to breed for a reasonable fee, say under $2000 for a sporthorse type foal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THAT is something I would like to know http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If I would go and offer that kind of money to the owners of the TB I consider the best and the most good looking stallion for a non racing TB they would call the police and accuse me of insulting them http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif May be one of his sons then http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

I think TB's are a kind of superhorse that has been bred only for speed. However I think the very same breed could beat all German warmbloods without effort if some of the best stuff could be bred for sport horses.

Since I do not have the kind of money needed for warmbloods, hence my question about the possibility of getting a "special price" for a non JC TB. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Forget it. I was daydreeming http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Ashemont]

Apologies. I'm certainly am not saying my registry is better than the others and do not want to rehash any of that, but I felt it necessary to correct some totally inaccurate information. I repeat, all RPSI foals do NOT receive Premiums, thus my brag on my stallion stands. And considering his resonable stud fee I think that is relevant to this discussion. Oh and might I add several of those GOLD Premium babies were out of TB mares http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[CindyGen]

So are you going to say which stallion you think is the best of the best in TBs for sport? I'm sure I wouldn't do it unless the foal could be registered with the Jockey Club, so I'd have to find something nice in my area.

[Erin Pittman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CindyGen:
Since you look like you are into TBs - what nice TB stallions are available to breed for a reasonable fee, say under $2000 for a sporthorse type foal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a filly by a TB stallion owned by Colorado State University that is SOOOO much more than I expected. His name is Capote's Promise and his fee is up this year to a whopping $750. They ship semen, too, so if JC papers are not an issue, you wouldn't have to send your mare far far away so she can get pregnant. You can see pics of my filly on this thread here (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=3206053911&m=799605791&r=799605791#799605791)

I know other folks will send in other names of gorgeous TB stallions, but I know this one and would breed to him again in a heartbeat!

Erin

[CindyGen]

Well unfortunately for me, THE issue with breeding a purebred TB out of this mare would be the JC rule for live cover. I wouldn't want to breed one that I couldn't register JC, and shipping the mare that far away is not possible. Right now I'm in Indiana near IL or MI. I'm going to try and take some photos of the mare soon. She's fairly plain looking herself, a dark bay with almost no white, but her foals have all been by QH stallions to date and the one that came with her here could REALLY move.

[nhwr]

I got into breeding because I had a fabulous TB that won everything in Southern California through I1 (when I sold him) in the early 90's. I missed him so much I tracked his breeder down, who owned my old horse's sire. He was the image of my old horse, his name was Windy Party ( pedigree (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=check&search_bar=horse&h=windy+party&g=5&inbred=Standard) ) so I brought a nice TB mare and bred her to him. I got a really nice filly. Then I bought a 2 year old colt by him who I competed through 3rd and sold to a young rider. In the meantime I bred another mare, a Holsteiner, to him. That colt is now 5 years old and he is really nice.

The sire, Windy Party, died in 1999. My Holsteiner cross was his last foal. His stud fee was $500. I always try to check out TBs with similar bloodlines. They are often pretty nice horses. I had the chance a few years ago the by a 4 year old gelding by him that was to die for out of a Sir Ivor mare for $1000 dollars, but I couldn't take on another horse at the time. I am still kicking myself for that.

[mbp]

CG - is Kentucky too far for you then? How about Canada? Too far north? What market would you want to target with her foals?

[mbp]

Sporthorse - I have to admit, I still don't get it. There is a pretty big difference between not wanting to breed someone's "low end" mare, and only wanting to breed very high quality mares. That difference being the great middle ground.

I also just don't think the strategy works - of saying let's price him high and then we'll only get high quality mares. A lot of small breeders are taking their riding mare and wanting to get one foal out, *maybe* another one. They are much more likely to be willing to do the 1800 over the 1000 - it's a one shot deal for them and if they fall in love with the stallion, that's that. They aren't really focused on researching the dollars and cents and the market. The serious breeders, who do it every year, with more than one mare, are, IMO, more likely to have focused on utilizing quality mares and they are also the folks who CANNOT sit back, like your SO, and say $ don't matter. They need to operate efficiently and functionally and that means that if there are other stallions with proven get, similar bloodlines or type, fertility records, experienced breeding staff who handle collections all the time and have multiple years worth of customers they can talk to for the real scoop - what is the attraction of paying the same fee for a newly imported or newly approved stallion, unknown fertility and progeny (see - I think the SO sounds like they have this idea that bc he's a nice stallion he will automatically "produce" with "nice" mares - it's not always that way for sure, or else this would be so easy) no history with stallion station or owner relating to collecitons and reliability, etc.--- why would experienced breeders with nice mares go to the the new stallion without a substantial discount/kicker unless they were friends or the stallion truly offered something unique?

Also - with my flame suit on, I don't get premium mare discounts as a blanket approach to making sure you get "nice" mares and thereby insure nice foals. So --- this stallion who we can't trust with the middle end mares bc they may not be able to produce well with them, is somehow going to produce well with all of: the rectangular premium mare and the square, the long jumper necked high withered well laid back shoulder mare and the shorter round necked straighter shoulder nowither premium mare, the Rubenstein type trot premium mare and the Weltmeyer type trot premium mare and the Prince Thatch type trot premium mare, the 17.2 1650 lb premium mare and the 16 hh 1100 premium mare, the premium 14 years ago old style premium mare and the new type out the wazoo recently imported 4 yo mare, the super hot premium mare and the "wake me up after we finish the test" phlegmatic premium mare? WOW - he can do all that but not put a nice foal out of a moderate mare that is similar in type to him but just not as nice. See --- to me --- JMO, that just doesn't sound well thought through.

TO me, the SO sounds like someone else who wants to get caught up in the glitz of having a nice stallion - not seriously improve the breeding here or WORK HARD for their mare owners. That's fine - their call on that - but it doesn't sound like someone interested in developing serious long term relationships with long term breeders either - or they would be more sensitive to the big picture, IMO.

I don't know that I agree that some of the stallion stations you mentioned are just out to breed their stallions to anything and everything that comes along, but I do know from experience with 2 of them that they work their butts off for the mare owners. They are not as caught up in the "gee, I have this nice stallion, you should be glad I took your call" they are pick up the phone saying - what can we do to help you get the best possible foal on the ground with the least hassle. That is something that comes with a big operation (not all - but see, it's easy to check with old customers) that a new owner can't bring to the table.

So I still don't understand WHY the new stallion is the same price as the proven guys - I mean, I guess I understand what you have said is the thought process - this is how I make sure I get high quality mares and only premium babies - but I just don't understand it. Particularly when you don't yet know what the stallion will actually produce - clubbiness, OCD, bad temperments, not much height, late developing trots, uneven growers, etc.

I also have to admit, IMO stallion owners who do not bring in a good stallion for improving that great middle ground of mares are, to me, not helping the mare owners in this country much.

I guess one final way to put it, if the stallion had not changed hands and was still in Europe as a new stallion, would they limit him to only high quality mare and would the charge the same amount? If not - why do we keep hearing that as mare owners we should embrace the European system when the stallion owner won't?

[Sporthorse South]

Hey gang - you may not agree with this stallion owner's reasoning , but as I said - that is *her* philosophy. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to go along with it. If you like the horse and don't mind the fee she is asking, then fine. If you don't like the horse, or don't like the fee, that's also fine. It is your right to breed to whomever you want, and it is her right to price her horse however she wants. Again, she isn't like the big breeding operations I mentioned whose primary focus is BREEDING - she bought her horse primarily as a riding horse, and the breeding end of the business is secondary to her primary goal. She fully intends to give good service to her mare owners - has even put in a state of the art breeding lab and collects and ships six days per week - but she also has a rather large training, boarding, and lesson clientele, so she has to keep the breeding part of the business in perspective.

I will also point out that I know of a few other young stallions with fees in the same ballpark as this particular stallion. In one such case, the horse hasn't even finished his performance test. I even STRONGLY considered one such stallion this year for my own mare, but decided to not breed her because she is for sale.

Again, what someone is willing to pay for a stud fee is a matter of personal choice. Some folks aren't going to pay over $1000 no matter WHO the stallion is, some folks are going to be willing to pay more. After all, it's a free country. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[mbp]

I don't think there was any question of would people use any particular stallion or not, gun to the head or not, but WHY fees for unproven stallions are not cheaper. I didn't mean to sound like she can't do what she wants by any means, and I apologize if it sounded that way. I just was saying I didn't understand the rationale of "high fee for young unproven stallion means I'll only get good mares" but I also think it is a rationale that others have as well. I still don't understand it.

I think this last post really puts it in a more understandable perspective. When you spell out that the horse is not meant to be a stallion as much as her riding horse - well, that explains her rationale better to me and explains more why she has him. The primary focus is having him as her riding horse. It definitely didn't sound like the primary focus was having him to stand, so it makes better sense. With her riding, training and breeding she needs enough out of the breeding to cover the nuisance factor of how it will take away from her other options. Again, that's ok, it's her decision and it really explains the pricing much better than saying she wants nice mares.

I think that may be a reason for several of the young stallions here having "too high" fees compared to their proof. I know of jumping stallions who didn't breed at all for big chunks of time bc their owners wanted to show and compete and breeding was too big a nuisance on the circuit. So the fee is not really based on their proven results, but on how important it is to the owner to breed them. The less important, the higher the fee to serve as an inducement.

[CindyGen]

I'm in Indiana near Illinois. I'm also within driving distance to Michigan.

[Gayla]

How can stallion owners really know that much about the mares anyway? Is it better to breed to a nasty attitude, lame WB mare with great pedigree OR the backyard breeder with the not so great looking mare with no papers that has packed the lady all over the place and won her a ton of ribbons and she wants another as close to her ugly mare as possible 'casue she loves her to death....wheew Shouldn't you trust the person that is going to have the foal to deal with.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I have no problem breeding a mare that may be "ugly as sin", but is a super sweetheart and packed their mom all over town - especially if it is for a special horse to keep to replace their horse they love so much. I have confidence in my boy - Nevada improves everything! a lot!

[showjumpers66]

I have to totally disagree. I have seen MANY novice breeders who think that their mares are nice when they are not. So, in their mind they have a quality mare.

It also seems that there are novice breeders who think that they are buying a nice foal out of their poor quality mare by breeding to a stallion with a big stud fee.

Overall, it is due to a lack of breeder education.

I have a friend that did embryo transfer to a top stallion for a mare that is extremely crooked legged (due to rickets as a foal), terrible topline, difficult temperament, and no hind end. She bred the mare just for herself, because she loved the mare.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sporthorse South:
Yes, Carosello, there are always some people who will throw money away, but the fact is that MOST people with lesser-quality mares are looking for bargains, whereas many people who have spent the money for a high quality mares are more willing to spend a bit more money on a stud fee. This is not to say that people with high quality mares don't also love a bargain - as some of you have aptly pointed out - but in general, people that have a good amount of money invested in high quality mares are far less likely to balk at spending a bit more on their breeding programs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[showjumpers66]

I participate in the auctions and I do bid on several stallions ... many times they are different types and different bloodlines, BUT I have several mares. I always have a plan and never bid on a stallion that will not fit into my breeding program somewhere. The auction breedings are not always a bargain. Some stallion owners add on astronomical booking fees which make the auction breeding more expensive for the mare owner than a standard stud fee.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ashemont:
When we used to donate breedings we always asked for a list of who had bid on our stallion. We always offered him at a reduced fee to them and ALWAYS found out that they had bid on several other stallions. The funny thing is that the stallions were always different types, different bloodlines, etc. The mare owners were just trying to get the cheapest breeding they could with no care to how the stallion would complement their mare! That's when we stopped donating breedings.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[alexandra]

Wow, what an interesting topic especially for me as an outsider !

Sorry Cindy to post the following, but I really have to say it !!!



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dray:
I'm another small farm. We imported a Hanoverian stallion (tested in Moscow; great scorse, great movement, a real charmer to be around). He is eligible for Book I with RPSI, so that's the registry we are going with.

end of quote;
cut out the rest of the post as not important for my comment
Donnahttp://www.sportequine.com <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DRAY Pleeeeease stop calling your stallion hanoverian stallion. He might be a stallion with hanoverian bloodlines. I do not know that, I could not read your russian pedigree when it was posted once and I have never seen you post the bloodlines in a correct pedigree with generations.
Your stallion is not regsitered with ANY registry accepted by the original Hannoveraner Verband to be considered hanoverian. In addition he has not undergone a hanoverian evaluation in russia. Such thing does not exist.
You somedays might get into trouble posting or writing always hanoverian stallion, this is misleading information. Your stallion has as far as I can judge no real hanoverian brand. If yes sorry, than I appologise.

Rusty (ridden By Ulla Salzgeber) has also quite a lot of Hanoverian blood in him. But he is always called a latvian horse, nobody ever mentions him as the hanoverian gelding.

Sorry, I think you stallion is not of bad quality, I would just prefer that you stop calling him hanoverian stallion. Use stallion with highly hanoverian influenced pedigree.
And to clear my confusion, one day sooner or later I will ask the russian worker at my freinds to spell your evaluation sheet to me in "our" letters to see what that all means.

But maybe you can list the pedigree information of future breeders on your homepage in readable letters.

I hope my english is not misunderstood - I am not bashing you and your stallion or anything like that. I just looking after correct information !
Maybe the Hannoveraner Verband in Germany is not very happy on the wording that you use.

[nhwr]

The thing that would concern me the most (even more than the amount of the stud fee) about using a young stallion in the scenarios that have been outlined is that if breeding isn't a priority for a SO, it doesn't bode well for the mare owner, IMO. When the mare owner is asked to pay a premium price for something that the SO finds a secondary priority, if there is a glitch, it is the mare owner who will be left to deal with it. That is not a good basis for a business relationship, in my experience.

Alexandra, I think your post was interesting. Rather than hijack this thread, I am going to start another one. I would be very interested in your (and other Europeans) response.

[Sporthorse South]

Nhwr, I understand your concern. The fact is that the stallion owner in question has been bending over backwards to accomodate her mare owners - including collecting on a few hours' notice, as well as helping to "educate" several mare owners AND their "repro" vets. Her dedication is paying off - quite a few mares with long-standing histories of being "hard to catch" are now in foal, many on first insemination. So I don't think that it is fair to assume that she will leave her mare owners in the lurch.

Once more - if you prefer to breed to a stallion with a lower stud fee, that's fine. If you prefer to assume the risks associated with frozen, that's also fine. THIS particular stallion owner has decided on a pricing strategy that works for her, and she is very satisfied with the response so far. In the end, we all have to do what we think works best for our particular circumstances - mare owners and stallion owners alike.

[2Dogs]

Whew, I am not sure I follwed all the comments. Late to the party so to speak. But, as an early to the game breeder, I will say that price is the last consideration I had. I have a mare that was the dream hunter. Then the worse case scenario - pasture accident and hunter career over. I had seen a stalllion that just blew me away. Was not going to improve my mare's wonderful movement over the ground, but wow, the jump and the temperment made me crazy with delight. I looked at his first foal crop. I loved them. I went with him, because I loved what I saw as a performance horse, and I knew my mare's weaknesses and I liked the babies I saw. So, yes, a chance for a price. But I did it on the quality I observed, so I took the gamble. Isn't that what it is all about?

[nhwr]

Sporthorse Soutn,

I am not refering to any particular stallion owner in my comments. I am just pointing out concerns that I would have in scenario that has been outlined. And I do find it somewhat ironic that serious breeders in general, and many stallion owners in particular, discourage mare owners from casual breeding. Yet it does seems to be OK for stallion owners http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Gayla]

I never really consider teh stud fee when looking at a stallion. I look at the fees. These are the expenses that can kill you!!

[Frogs Leap]

nhwr-

I, too was interested in Alexendra's comments, so where is your new thread? I have been looking!

I don't mean to say that Dray's stallion is not nice, and of high quality, but I am interested in how other Europeans see this type of situation. It happens a lot, I am sure!

[nhwr]

Sorry I got distracted by the 4th of July (war mongering American nationalistic breeder that I am http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

I will work on it now.

[Frogs Leap]

Snicker!
I thought just the warmblood breeders were "warmongers!"