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View Full Version : Puppies with Giardia - I'm the breeder, now what to do...



butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 29, 2010, 06:08 PM
Ok, i'm just looking for some thoughts on this. What you would expect from your breeder, etc... This will be long, i apologize in advance, but i would love more opinions. :D

For those that dont know, Giardia is an intestinal bug, viral, passes easily to others, lives in contaminated water, but spread by birds and thrives in wet conditions and damp soil. For an adult dog, if they are fed well, not stressed, have a good imune system, their body deals with this bug and eventually it goes away, same for humans. In a puppy, it can cause diarhea and eventually death by dehydration if not treated. Giardia can be picky, it can hit one pup and no one else, or it could hit everyone.

I'm a dog breeder. I have 7 adults, we show, i enjoy doing it. I breed a couple litters a year, striving for that perfect show dog to keep for myself, but usually they all sell to wonderful pet homes and we've met a lot of neat people along the way. I like what i do. Our dogs sell in the $600-1000 range for pets.

I had a litter of pups born first of April. Nice healthy litter. We deworm 2,4,6,and 8 weeks, our pups have an initial check up within their first week and then a check up at 7 weeks-ish to clear them to go to their new homes. We guarantee our puppies for 3 business days and ask for buyers to get their first puppy exam in that time frame. We then guarantee them for genetic defects (hips/eyes) for a year.

My pups grow up on a raw diet. I do not require my puppy buyers to continue with raw, as i know for some it just isnt a real viable option and there are plenty of really good kibble feeding homes that i wont deny selling a pup to.

So here's the story.

My pups were doing great. At 6 weeks i fostered a pup for 3 days. This pup was in good health but really in shock from getting shoved here. I let him play with my other pups, it helps him calm down. This was VERY stupid of me. Stupid to even take in this pup frankly, and unfortunately, i wont be helpful again. Bad as that sounds.

This pup went to his new home and 3 days later was diagnosed with Giardia and had a fairly rough go at recovery. He had hook worms pretty badly which we think is why he was so open to the Giardia dragging him down. He recovered fine.

Giardia has a 9-15 day incubation period. This pup did not pick it up from me, but i felt bad for the new owner, so i helped him out with his vet bill. No fun to get a new puppy and it get sick!

I was concerned about our puppies, so i took them into our vet, had them checked, of course, Giardia is very hard to find in a fecal and we found no trace, but vet put us on 5 days of metronidizole as a preventative. I bleached my kennels and treated all of my adult dogs. However, my dogs get out to play in the dog yard twice a day for a couple hours, i could not bleach the grass.

Pups were doing fine, no issues, passed their vet check to leave, first two pups left... 4 days later, they get sick, confirmed Giardia. We had informed our buyers that we had a giardia positive dog here and had done preventative treatment just in case. So they already knew it came from here. Of course, i felt bad, and i paid their vet bill. Their pups recovered in a couple days. Those two pups went to a kibble feeding home, we tell them to feed a little raw to change the diet until they are on all kibble, but i do not know what they did.

I mention the diet because the other two pups that left in this time frame went to raw feeding homes and did not get sick at all. (Though could have just been that the giardia did not hit them but hit the others.)

I had 3 pups left here and i took them to the vet again to have fecals checked, again, we found nothing, and our pups were acting completely normal with firm poops. But the vet did 3 days of panacur and 10 days of metronidizole for prevention. We bleached everything down again and i also put my adults on 5 days of metronidizole again. Knowing the only way i was going to get rid of it was to treat everyone here at the same time.

2 pups then went to the same home, a non-raw feeding home. 4 days later they get sick. Confirmed Giardia. Again, i feel bad and pay their vet bill. 7 days later, pups get worse and start vomitting. They were admitted for a day at the vet, on fluids, more meds, cernia injections for anti-vommiting (which i'm upset about as they shouldnt get that until 16 weeks as it can cause liver damage in a younger pup) and on medicated food. Pups are doing better. But this is now a $360 bill and the buyer wants me to pay, since i was nice and paid the $200 one the week before...

Last pup went to his new home, a raw feeding home, he has been just fine.

So - To breeders since i know many are here, what would you do? Would you cover this aditional vet bill too?

To dog buyers - If you bought a puppy and it got sick with an intestinal bug, what would you require of your breeder?

I dont sell puppies to make money, i breed for my next show dog. Frankly, with my two litters this year and all vet bills incurred, i'm WAY negative digits here and my husband is losing his job in Oct. So this is why i'm hesitant to pay yet another vet bill. I also dont want to be labeled as a bad breeder by this buyer and have my name smeared all over the internet as such either though. I'm so torn.

My GSD breeder friend (who's been breeding 37yrs) thinks i'm nuts for paying for a vet bill for an intestinal bug, she equates it to worms and i wouldnt pay a vet bill for worms since i have record of treating them as much as i can safely treat them. Some are just resistant suckers. She also mentions that if the buyers didnt swap the food to kibble gradually they could have lowered the immune system so low that between food change and stress of relocation let a low grade giardia bug thrive and go bonkers, which has nothing to do with me. And on that, she's right. But how do i tell a buyer that? Especially after i already paid for their first bill.

I am worried about these two pups. This is now the 4th time they've been on drugs for many days, from metronidizole, panacur, and albon and then getting pumped up with Cerenia at too young an age. I do not want to be held liable for liver failure or dead puppies.

That and holy heck they must use the most expensive vet in their town, my vet looked at their bills and muttered something about price gouging, and here i thought MY vet was expensive!

Signed,
A very frustrated and sad dog breeder.

ambar
Jun. 29, 2010, 06:11 PM
When I bred cats, the way I dealt with the "i'll pay your vet bills ... holy HELL does your vet have gold-lined sinks?!" was that I would pay the bills ... at /my/ vet. I once had a particular kitten come back twice for persistent loose stools... I took him to my vet, paid the bills, got him stable, and he and his owners were happy.

Of course this is trickier if your buyers live some distance away from you.

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 29, 2010, 06:22 PM
Yes, this buyer is 6hrs away... Cant really get them to my vet!

Bluey
Jun. 29, 2010, 06:23 PM
No telling, because in cases like yours, there are too many sides to the story.

Many years ago, I got a puppy from a very good dobie breeder, that happened to also be a human doctor.
The puppy got here sick, giardia diagnosed and she pulled thru fine.

The breeder never offered to pay, also said it didn't come from him, had a few words with our veterinarian about it, because obviously incubation time for giardia indicated the puppy was infected while still in the breeder's kennels.
The dog also had wobblers later and the breeder didn't want to hear about that either.
Our vet was not impressed with that breeder.

Who knows, maybe that was as good a breeder as his reputation, but sometimes, stuff just happens.

I think it was nice of you to pay some of the bills.
Once you have started that, of course they expect you to keep it up until the puppies are ok.

You could try explaining that your guarantees are over after this, other than the ones specified in the contract already.

Horsegal984
Jun. 29, 2010, 06:23 PM
First off, your GSD breeder friend is correct, Giardia are more 'worms' than 'virus,' as they are a protozoa. So if your warrenty doesn't cover intestinal parasites you are not under any obligation to cover the treatment of giardia. As a member of the veterinary field had you helped out with the first bill I would have advised my client that you were very generous and they shouldn't push their luck(if of course they actually told me about it!)

Giardia on it's own has to be pretty darn severe to cause more than diarrhea, so with the fact the pups had been on a round of metro and then were vomiting etc. I would be suspicious that something else had contribuited to it. And quite frankly if you get a new pup, even if the breeder had it only on horse poop you should transition gradually to a better food. So again, I agree with your friend, stress and a new diet have very much contributed to the issue at hand.

Personally, since I would assume your warrenty on your pups doesn't include intestinal parasites I would just tell the new owners that you appreciate them letting you know how the little guy is doing, and to please keep you updated. And I hope that my paying the first bill helped them to afford paying this on. If they totally blow thier gasket over it they may not be the type of poeple you thought they were.

Katherine
Vet Tech


P.S. While I do like raw diets, they are not always the best for young puppies, as their diegstive tracts are not as devolped and they are more suspectable to infections in general, including Toxoplasmosis and Salmonella. Also if using a homemade diet as opposed to prepackaged raw foods please be sure that the diet is balanced for growing puppies, as some of their vitamin and mineral requirements are different than that of adults.

Melissa.Van Doren
Jun. 29, 2010, 06:29 PM
First, giardia is not a virus. It's a parasite. As you have found, it can be very difficult to confirm and get rid of due to its life cycle (which includes an encysted stage). Typical treatment includes metronidazole and fenbendazole for dogs. In humans, the treatments last many weeks and treating too lightly can drive the parasite "underground" to resurface at a later date. I'm not sure if this can happen in dogs, but it sure seems as if it would be possible. It's true the immune system may also play a role, but not in a necessarily good way... it allows the body to adapt to giardia and so doesn't help to eradicate the parasite totally.

But that's all kind of beside the point. You have a policy for guarantee. It does not offer vet bills. You were nice to pay as much as you did, but are under no further obligation. I can understand you are worried about the pups that are still sick, but if you can't stress yourself further financially there's really nothing to be done but hope their owners do the best they can in providing them with continuing treatment.

I bought a very nice rottie pup I knew had been hospitalized at a very young age for a vaccine reaction. His breeder absorbed those bills, but once he was mine I would never have dreamed of asking for more help with vet bills (even for the same problem - which had been fully disclosed). If the breeder had offered financial help with further bills, I would likely have refused. But if I had taken the help, I would never have asked for more! To me, once an animal comes home it is my sole responsibility.

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 29, 2010, 06:54 PM
I guess i meant giardia being "viral" in the fact that it spreads from dog to dog, but is really parasitic. My vet considers it more "viral" in that we treat everyone when one is found with it to get rid of it. I have seen what it looks like under the scope, it is absolutely a parasite!

I do need to modify my contract to not cover parasites i think! As it is now, it doesnt specify anything after 3 business days, which the first vet bill did fall under as they picked their pups up on a Sat, got sick 4 days later.

HOWEVER, i did talk with the buyers vet at length, and it seems to just be persistant giardia and i did offer to "help" the buyers if it was still giardia related... But i just dont know what all i want to cover and how to say no to the other stuff. I'm kinda stuck. They were tested for parvo due to the vomitting, i'm not covering that test since that has nothing to do with me, that knocks it down $100.

I dont agree that they were given the Cerenia shots at this age, and vomitting again is not related to the giardia, so i dont know if i want to pay for those, that brings it down another $50.

I "think" they've been honest with me on their care/treatment and i did "vet" them out well before they bought, at least i thought i did, but you know how that goes. I am glad they are at least taking them to the vet to fix a problem!

It's all frustrating.

Yes, i know there is a lot of speculation and discussion about raw diets period, regardless of dog age. However, we've fed it for years, i've brought dogs out of un-healthy/weird illness/even joint/lame situations by feeding a raw diet alone. I know breeders overseas that have never seen a bag of kibble and they've NEVER had the issues our US kibble fed dogs have come down with. So for us, it's our choice and it has served us very well. We do use a multivitamin on our pups as well as feed some raw fruits/veggies and greek yogurt (though i do not feed as many fruits/veggies as some raw feeders do). Our dogs eat the bones/marrow as well, i think that is the key to a successful raw diet. Ground bones for pups. I tried holistic kibbles, really expensive ones, well known names, nothing has compared. I was generating loads of poop from them passing everything their body wasnt using out of it. Vs their raw diets that produce very little poop that turns to chalk in 24hrs... Kibble would be easier! But not cheaper or as healthy in our oppinion, no matter what the brand from our experience, i tried Canidae last year for 4 months on a couple dogs, nasty poops all 4 months, tried Call of the Wild, poops smelled so disgusting it made me gag, i only made it 2 months on that food, there was another one "California" something or similar, it was nasty poop too. I rate things on how nasty the poop is... LOL :)

Horsegal984
Jun. 29, 2010, 07:05 PM
HOLY ^(&*!!!! $100 for a parvo test?!?!?! If you really want to be nice and help out I would ask them for a copy of the invoice, and have youre vet give you a price had he done all the same treatments(minus the cerenia since you wouldn't have done it). Then you can re-pay as you see fit based on what your vet would charge you had you treated it.

And please understand, I am not trying to fault you for feeding raw. I really understand the logic and beliefs behind it. I only pointed that out because a lot of our clients feel the same, and we have seen a couple large breed puppies that have devolped problems due to a homemade raw diet that was incorrectly balanced. We had them switch to a prepared raw diet and the issues resolved.

Katherine
Vet Tech

back in the saddle
Jun. 29, 2010, 07:18 PM
I'd get the vet bill, cover anything due to the parasite and that be IT. It's still helping, they shouldn't complain about you helping out. Take the high road and let it be known the warranty period is done. (nicely and diplomatically of course)

That's what I would do.

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 29, 2010, 07:33 PM
I have the vet bill right here. :) There are two pups, it's $49 PER test, so technically speaking it's $98 not $100...

The re-check/exam fee is $32 x 2
Fluids $28 x 2
Cerenia injections $23.40 x 2
One pup got a RCVD Canine Intestinal HE 7# for $20.95 (i dont know what that is, i'm thinking a probiotic?)
Albon Liquid $17.75
Metronidizole $23.00
Parvo Test $49 x 2
30 cans of medicated food $35

If you want to get specific, the only thing i can prove as giardia related (and not caused by whatever the vomitting had to do with) is the Metronidizole.

NO fecal was done this visit, so we cant really even prove it's still even the giardia, but that was the vet's "guess" when i talked with her. They put them on Albon just in case it is coccidia too that hasnt shown up (the other sick pups did not find coccidia, i've never had it here that i know of).

So would you just pay for the metronidizole? Maybe split the exam fee and the fluids because it might have been giardia related but could also have pushed them over the scales from whatever was making them vomit?

I know i'm going to sound like a total *$#@ when i talk with the buyers if i get technical like this... Sigh.

citydog
Jun. 29, 2010, 07:35 PM
Sorry OP, but I'd expect the breeder to cover the bill. The pups were exposed/infected at the breeder's.

Buffyblue
Jun. 29, 2010, 07:45 PM
When I got my puppy I took her to my vet. She wasn't sick at all but tested positive for Giardia. Vet gave some medicine and she was fine. I don't remember it being that expensive. I paid for it myself.

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 29, 2010, 08:07 PM
Citydog-
this second vet visit is 10 days after the dogs left me, and no tests were done to prove it is still Giardia and they are vomitting which is NOT a symptom of Giardia...

So for all i know, they could have licked up some floor cleaning solution, got sick, went to the vet, they didnt know this or didnt disclose this to the vet, vet thought maybe parvo from the vomitting, tested for it, negative... Thinks maybe coccidia, but doesnt test for it cause it might not want to show itself anyway, treats for it with Albon just in case, and hits them again with metronidizole just in case it might still be giardia... and puts them on fluids for the day to get them rehydrated... But really, i know nothing definate from talking to the vet and reading their bill (and i talked with this vet the day they went in, and yes, she confirmed she wasnt sure if there was more going on, but treated for giardia again and it "could" still be that, but the vomitting left her wondering).

So how long do you expect your breeder to keep paying for something you cant prove is a problem they came with?

I'm not really arguing, i just wonder so i can feel better about what i'm going to say to them. :)

PNWjumper
Jun. 29, 2010, 08:15 PM
I've had two puppies come from the breeder with Giardia. I had no expectation that the breeder would pay for anything. It's certainly wasn't a big deal to treat and, while messy, didn't make me angry with the breeder in any way. It's a parasite for cripe's sake! My puppies came from a very reputable breeder (and one that I've gotten several very nice puppies from through the years).

I think you're being very nice to offer to pay, but I think that's going above and beyond your call of duty :) (or in shorter terms, I agree with your friend and think you're nuts for paying too! :lol:).

riff
Jun. 29, 2010, 08:27 PM
Many years ago I sold some Basset Hound puppies. (Mom came to me already bred. Long story.) Pups were dewormed and current on shots when they left. One lady called and said her puppy was sick and she was at the vet's office. She expected me to cover the bill. The pup had been in her home two weeks. I called her vet and told the puppy owner I would be happy to refund her money and would be right there to get the puppy to take it to my vet. I never heard from the lady again. I wasn't about to cover a bill that probably was caused by something that had happened after the puppy left my place. But I certainly would have taken the puppy back and had my vet do whatever was needed. I would not expect you to pay any bills as a puppy buyer. You have done enough.

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 29, 2010, 08:29 PM
I myself wouldnt bother a breeder with selling me a giardia pup either. But as a breeder, i know that parasites are everywhere and puppies are parasite magnets.

But i have had really wacko reactions from buyers recently, and i do understand the other side, i really do, which is why i'm trying to pay and be a good person here.

I do really like the idea of telling people it's my vet only though. Might get tricky for my out of state buyers however.

I've been so depressed about this, i'm about ready to give up breeding no matter how much i love it. It hasnt been kind to me this year! But i know it's all part of the game.

Guin
Jun. 29, 2010, 08:43 PM
If I paid in the hundreds of dollars for a pure-bred puppy from a reputable breeder, and from the moment I got it the puppy was sick with vomiting and diarrhea, I would expect the breeder to pay all the bills, absolutely. The reason for buying from a reputable breeder is the assurance you are getting a sound, healthy dog.

Puppies that come with vomiting and diarrhea make me seriously question the environment they came from. I'd be bending over backwards making sure the puppies were healthy BEFORE selling them.

Horsegal984
Jun. 29, 2010, 08:47 PM
Now that I see the breakdown the prices seem much more reasonable lol.

OK, so here's how I would see it. I would pay for recheck exam, metro, fluids and EITHER the canned food OR the RCVD Intestinal Health 7#, because they are both types the same diet, no reason the pup needs both really, unless the client just insisted. Typically sick pups will be sent home with canned food because the added water will help account for losses with dehydration.

Albon, Parvo test, cerenia and the other food type? sorry that's on them, those were elective services and likely not needed because of the giardia, which is what you are warrenting, albeit unintentionally. And as part of that bargan I would request either a longer course of metronidazole(10 days) or a longer course of panacur, since this particualr strain of giardia seems resistant. Since there wasn't a fecal done again it's impossible to say if that is the case, but the longer courses of those meds are very safe, even for young pups, and it will clear you from all responsibilities IRT the giardia.

Oh, and RCVD stands for Royal Canin Veterinary Diet, and Intestinal health, well duh. ;o)

Katherine
Vet Tech

You're also not the only breeder I know who's ready to quit thanks to a couple bad buyers. Hope all the good ones don't quit!

FalseImpression
Jun. 29, 2010, 08:48 PM
Well, from a buyer's point of view, yes, when it is proven that the pup was infected at time of purchase, I would expect the breeder to cover the vet bills related to the issue.

In '91, I bought a lab pup from a reputable lab breeder (my friends had bought a lab from her and was quite happy). We picked up our pup on Saturday (was not the pup we had chosen because he had gotten sick - should have seen the red flag!). Went to the vet on Monday to have him checked out. She felt he was fine, but a bit lethargic for a puppy. Told me to be alert for any sign, diarrhea, vomiting, etc. Sure enough, on Tuesday, he was vomiting food/water and had bloody diarrhea. Took him to the vet who put him on IV right away. Called the breeder also. Breeder had given me the name and number of another pup buyer who lived a couple of blocks from me. I called them as well to let them know. Next day, that pup got sick.

My vet was very aggressive and kept the pup on IV night and day, the other vet did not. The breeder wanted me to return the pup and I did not want to have the pup off IV for the two hours it would have taken me to drive back to the breeder's. Both pups, and 3 others of the same litter, had parvo. My pup made it and lived to 12 years of age without any other health issue. The other pup and 3 others died.

The breeder agreed to pay my vet bill (even though she said her vet would have been cheaper). It took a few months for me to get a total refund, but I did get it.

My next dog was a rescue and so was the next one. Somehow, I should have know when I found out the dam's name was "Trouble". But I felt strongly that the breeder was responsible for selling me a sick dog and she should pay most of the vet bill.

mypaintwattie
Jun. 29, 2010, 08:59 PM
I just bought a puppy at the beginning of May, a Corgi from a reputable breeder. The breeder gave a health guarantee for 48 hours that covered everything but internal parasites. Long story short, I took the puppy to my vet for a health check the next day. Did a fecal, and it came back that the puppy had worms. No big deal on my end, got the medicine and at the next check up all was clear. My pup never had any issues, no soft stool, no other illness. Having worked for a vet most of the puppies that came in had some sort of internal parasite.

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 29, 2010, 09:01 PM
Guin- I have to laugh because these pups went to the vet FOUR times before they went to their new home! That's how insane i am about being sure i sell a healthy puppy. NONE of my dogs/puppies have ever shown any giardia symptoms or had it show on a fecal here. To be totally honest, this is my first experience with it personally. My vet thinks i'm crazy, but of course, she doesnt mind my money... :)

These pups were not sick the minute they went home. It was 4 days later that they started having diarhea. For 4 days, they were perfectly happy, healthy puppies. I have record of her vet telling her that aside from the giardia, they are perfectly healthy puppies in the buyers own email. At that time, all they were showing was runny poop and since i had told the owners that it could be a possibility, they knew to take them in to get checked (which they should have anyway per my contract to get them checked in 3 business days which most people never do, sigh...)

We bleach our kennels once a week, they are power washed daily, food/water bowls are bleached daily. All health clearances and genetic testing i can do are done on my breeding dogs. I strive to be the epitime of a "good breeder."

Yes, the world might lose this good breeder after this year. Between vet bills/weird buyers this year and my husband's looming job loss (which is forcing me to put 4 of my young girls up for sale, two of which i just got their titles on this year... BIG SIGH!) i might not make it to next year before i'm fixing dogs! :(

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 29, 2010, 09:10 PM
A word to puppy buyers, if you buy a pup and it came with Parvo, do not assume the breeder is not a good one. Parvo can spread so rapidly, even from an infected dog around the block that never came in contact with your dogs. Birds spread it on their feet/beaks getting bugs off poop from one yard and hopping into the next. I lost one of my best pups to parvo because a dog 6 houses down got it, and it lives on your property for months and months.

My GSD breeder friend lost a whole litter to it one year, even with agressive treatment. She has no idea where it came from. She's one of the best breeders i know.

Giardia is worse than worms when it comes to parasites in my oppinion. But that doesnt mean that the best breeder in the world cant get it at their property. Even if we kept our dogs shut in sterile concrete kennels 24x7, they can still get parasites. It's impossible to be THAT GOOD of a breeder. Period. That is why we de-worm so often and do vet checks before they leave with fecals, but something like giardia and coccidea do not show in fecals probably 9 times out of 10, just depends on if the darn things are shedding the moment of that fecal according to their life cycles.

K.
Jun. 29, 2010, 10:17 PM
As a puppy buyer I would not expect you to pay for vet bills. when I take a new puppy for a vet check it I wouldn't expect the breeder to pay if something was wrong. If the had something so wrong that it was going to die I would probably take it back to the breeder.

As a breeder I would hope that either the new owners would take responsibility for the new puppy(s) or return it if they couldn't.

good luck!!

kdow
Jun. 29, 2010, 10:27 PM
If the problem was something that clearly the breeder should have known about and dealt with, then I'd expect the breeder to cover the cost. (Or take the dog back, refund my money, and then perhaps I could repurchase the dog once the health problem was resolved, if that was what the breeder wanted to do to have maximum control over the situation.)

An example of this would be the older dog I adopted from a rescue who had a broken canine and seriously needed dental work to deal with it. (It was getting infected.) Not only did they not deal with it, they didn't even MENTION it when I adopted him. (As a rescue, I'm fine with the idea they maybe simply couldn't afford the cost of dental care, but in that case I think they should have disclosed it when I expressed interest in the dog, and perhaps reduced their adoption fee accordingly.)

If the problem was just One Of Those Things that the pup could have picked up anywhere, well. Who knows how or when the pup got sick? I'd just get the pup treated and that'd be that.

An example of this would be pup comes home, starts switching over to different food, starts having stomach troubles. Maybe it's the food or water change, maybe not. Take pup to the vet, get it treated. (Probably also switch it back to the original diet until it's over being ill, if possible.)

FalseImpression
Jun. 29, 2010, 10:43 PM
Well, in my case, it did originate at the breeder's since she admitted that my chosen pup was sick already! Somehow, she had switched puppies and bitches (another red flag)... anyway, there seemed to be a lot of excuses going around.

As I said, apart from parvo at the beginning, this dog lived 12 very healthy years, dying 12 years to the day I had picked him up!

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 29, 2010, 11:31 PM
Well i had a conversation with my puppy buyer who is ticked and wants a full refund.

After much thought, i refunded for the metronidizole (a giardia medication) and paid half of her fees for the exam, both medicated foods, and fluids.

I did not cover the Albon (not giardia medication), parvo test, or cerenia (anti-vomit injection).

This buyer did not notify me the dogs had gone to the vet until AFTER. I did not have the option to take the dogs back to my vet, which to be honest, i would have MUCH prefered so i could have monitored the situation and would have driven the 6hrs to pick them up, even if i had to rig an IV in the car and line everything with newspapers to get them there.

JanM
Jun. 30, 2010, 07:31 AM
When I lived in Colorado my new vet was amazed that the previous vet had run a Giardia test and treated my dog for this, because he only treated it when there were symptoms of illness (if you don't know what they are then you don't want to know-they're icky) because Giardia is so prevalent in the area and my dog had no symptoms. I got my second dog from the humane society and he was full of hookworms that I had to treat, and that was truly yucky.

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 30, 2010, 07:44 AM
JanM - you are correct, giardia is probably present in way more dogs than we know, but unless it shows in the fecals, we dont know, and if they dont show any symptoms (which is really just disgusting poop with possibly mucas/blood in it, which for pups, they can dehydrate so quickly, it can be lethal), you may never know.

Supposedly this year due to our damp weather here in GA, giardia has been a big issue.

sisu27
Jun. 30, 2010, 09:50 AM
The reason for buying from a reputable breeder is the assurance you are getting a sound, healthy dog.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Loves to ride
Jun. 30, 2010, 10:12 AM
giardia is everywhere is the environment and one of those things that, although annoying to deal with, is minor and no way would I expect my breeder to pay for it.

Since stress can trigger it, and moving puppy to a new home is stressful, I'd consider it a nuisance.

I'm shocked that a client wants you to refund the purchase price. Personally, I'd take back the puppy instead of giving a refund as I'd be nervous about an owner having that lack of knowledge having one of my dogs.

IFG
Jun. 30, 2010, 10:15 AM
I am a buyer not a breeder, but yes, if the puppy was infected at the time that I bought it, I would expect the breeder to pay the bills.

mustangtrailrider
Jun. 30, 2010, 10:54 AM
An example of this would be the older dog I adopted from a rescue who had a broken canine and seriously needed dental work to deal with it. (It was getting infected.) Not only did they not deal with it, they didn't even MENTION it when I adopted him. (As a rescue, I'm fine with the idea they maybe simply couldn't afford the cost of dental care, but in that case I think they should have disclosed it when I expressed interest in the dog, and perhaps reduced their adoption fee accordingly.)

I have adopted many dogs from rescue. I have also fostered many dogs for various rescues when I lived out west. My most recent acquisition was a "middle" aged female spayed, healthy, blah blah blah. I took her to the vet. The vet thought she was closer to 8 yrs, not 5 like I was told. The vet said that her teeth needed to be done and that her ears were badly infected. I was told she was perfectly healthy other than being fat. LOL....

I don't hold it against the rescue for not disclosing it to me. I took her to the vet to get her checked out.....I could have taken her back to the rescue or I could deal with it. I chose to keep her.

It is entirely possible that the rescue didn't know about the issue. If you look at one of our dogs, you wouldn't notice he is missing his canine. We don't know when it came it.....years ago I guess.

OP, quit being nice on this. You disclosed the issue. The buyer took the pups to the vet....they were cleared by vet as healthy. They bought the pups from you knowing there was a chance they would get sick....they did, 4 days later. They changed the pups water, food, and environemnt. That alone, would have been enough to send the pups over the edge. Tell them no more. You have done what you will do.

Good Luck.

Aven
Jun. 30, 2010, 11:08 AM
In case you are unaware, only guaranteeing hips for a year is not the mark of a good breeder. Since you cannot OFA hips until 24 months minimum your 'guarantee' isn't worth much unfortunately.

Sorry, Ive never had giardia.. kudos for feeding raw, we feed raw and breed jrts.

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 30, 2010, 11:12 AM
For breed/show dogs we guarantee hips for 3yrs, eyes for 2yrs. For pets, only one year on both. I have never met a pet owner that will pay the money to OFA hips. I RARELY ever sell a pup to a breeding home, because if it's that nice, i usually keep it. I can only think of two pups i let go to breeders over 8yrs of breeding.

Those two pups sold for 2k each.

For pet pups, obviously the price is MUCH discounted and with that discount comes a guarantee that covers less. If there were to be a severe genetic issue with hips or eyes, it will show in the first year in my experience. This is why we test our adults and make sure we breed nothing less than Good OFA ratings and with clear lenses to help insure our pups wont have a problem, sure, that's not 100% sure puppies wont have a problem, but we do our best.

kdow
Jun. 30, 2010, 11:29 AM
It is entirely possible that the rescue didn't know about the issue. If you look at one of our dogs, you wouldn't notice he is missing his canine. We don't know when it came it.....years ago I guess.


Part of the issue is that they'd actually had him anesthetized to remove a skin tag sort of thing he had on the inside of one back leg just a couple of days before I adopted him, and you could tell by his breath that something wasn't great in there. (Though it did take me a couple of days to actually notice his canine was broken, and longer than that to get a good look at it and realize it needed to come out.)

At the very least I would have expected them to have a look while he was already under and they could take the chance to check things out. As it was he had to be anesthetized twice and since every GA has some risk to it, well, that's what bugs me most.

(I should add that they did basically make good - they don't usually do dental work in their vet clinic, just routine stuff and spay/neuter, but they agreed to check him out and their vet handled him so much better than any of the others we'd gotten quotes from that I had them remove the tooth and check the others, and they agreed to do it for me. So the experience was much less stressful for him than it could have been, and his teeth got all fixed up. :) )

JanM
Jun. 30, 2010, 11:31 AM
ButlerFamilyZoo-what the vet actually said was that since most dogs were carriers and not really affected by giardia that most vets didn't even run the test on the dogs because they were almost universally carriers. And that the owners brought the dogs in for treatment when the owner caught giardia with all of the relevant and disgusting symptoms.

And my new vet (who was a very experienced vet) implied that he thought that treating an asymptomatic dog was basically a money-maker for the vet practice, and my previous experience with them bore that out.

And in the case of the original pups-I wonder what little goodies they were fed between appointments. At that age they might be much more susceptible to the feeding of something high fat, or something in a small quantity that would make them sick and look like the return of giardia when it might be a gastrointestinal upset instead. I find it suspicious that both dogs ended up with the same recurrence of the problem. Maybe the abrupt change in food from the vets back to the new home food triggered it.

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 30, 2010, 12:13 PM
JanM- you bring up a good point actually. If i'm so "infested" with it as this buyer wants to make out, why have i not gotten it? I have a 19 month old son that lives in the dog yard and thinks he's part dog... Why has he not gotten it? And i think it's stuff we would notice! (Where's the EWWW smiley when you need one?) :lol:

My cat sure hasnt gotten it, wish he would, he's had chronic constipation issues the past two years that we havent gotten situated correctly yet.

My ferret has been perfectly normal too. Both of which play with the dogs when they come indoors (which is daily for most of them).

The whole thing would be less frustrating if something here showed symptoms. But no, it's got to be puppies after they leave and go to their new homes.

The "newest" argument is that i sold her puppies so sick that she didnt realize how sick they were until they are now better and shows her that they were totally not alright the first 4 days they were there...

(What puppy is happy go lucky, playing, and completely "normal" the first 4 days in a new home?)

I've decided i cant please everone and have a call in to my lawyer in case this lady tries to do any real damage. I am sticking to my guns and only refunding what i have already done and no more. I did offer to refund it all and purchase price of pups if she will return them to me, she refused. Said it would make her kids too upset.

jetsmom
Jun. 30, 2010, 12:40 PM
In case you are unaware, only guaranteeing hips for a year is not the mark of a good breeder. Since you cannot OFA hips until 24 months minimum your 'guarantee' isn't worth much unfortunately.



I was going to post the same thing.

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 30, 2010, 01:26 PM
You can get an OFA prelim under 2yrs of age...

The OFA fee chart shows fees for dogs under 24 months of age, and a fee for a "FOLLOW UP" after 24 months. From my experience, you can OFA a dog of any age, you just can not get a permanent rating until 2yrs of age, the only reason to have a permanent rating would be for breeding purposes.

http://www.offa.org/fees.html

I've OFA'd a 12 month dog without issue, i dont even believe i was asked the age. If you'll pay, they'll do anything.

wendy
Jun. 30, 2010, 03:23 PM
good breeders guarantee their dogs FOR LIFE and insist upon OFA's and other breed-specific health tests being done- due to the complexity of the genetics of some of these conditions, especially hip dysplasia, the only way the breeder can be sure the line is healthy is to have as many of the offspring screened as possible. If your stud dog has "good" OFA hips but seems to throw some pups with bad hips, you owe it to everyone to find out and then neuter the stud as soon as possible. OR let's say your bitch has a wonderful temperament, but you find out she's producing 50% pups with reactive/aggressive problems; only way to find out the bitch is carrying bad genes is to keep in contact with the pup buyers, ask the hard questions, and then do the responsible thing by spaying the bitch and demanding that all the pup buyers neuter her offspring.

anyway, correct me if I got the original story wrong: breeder gets a foster pup in briefly, and exposes his litter to the foster. The foster proceeds to get VERY ill. The breeder's litter goes to their new homes, and then many? of the litter come down with a serious illness (which, frankly, doesn't sound AT ALL like giardia to me, and yes, I had a pup that was troubled by it). I'd say that in this particular situation the pups were all clearly exposed to some nasty illness before being sold and therefore the breeder is entirely liable.

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 30, 2010, 03:50 PM
All 4 of my pups that got sick were CONFIRMED with giardia not by fecals, but by the giardia specific lab test from different vets in NC, NY, and SC - so none of these vets conspired together and said, hey, we'll lie and call this giardia when it's really some deathly disease the breeder unloaded on this buyer. All were given the same medications for GIARDIA and have recovered. What these last two also came down with, i dont know because no tests were done on them for that vet visit and i have no idea what type of environment they've been in or come in contact with, they were just hit up with an assortment of meds/food/fluids to hopefully hit the probables.

The fact that the pups bounced back the very next day to "normal" according to their owner, really makes me think, and after talking with my vet today too to get info for my lawyer, that the pups came in contact with something toxic that caused more of a gastrointestinal issue and the fluids and anti-vomit shot pepped them back to normal.

Frankly, Wendy, your idea of a good breeder sounds great to me, but i dont know a single pet buyer that would buy a pup under those circumstances, even if it were given away, nor would i guarantee a dog against hip displasia for life when i breed working dogs that can get injuries to cause it.

I do not have a breed that leans towards aggression unless someone beat on it and made it that way, that is not a concern for my breeding program. Our genetic issues are hips and eyes and i stay away from lines with issues while still trying to breed a conformation show dog that can also work.

There is absolutely no perfect dog, no matter how hard you try to breed for perfect.

I have never met a breeder (and i know in the hundreds of breeders having shown and purchased dogs all over the US in various breeds) that would offer the guarantee you mention. I think they would fall into fits of giggles as i just did.

If you would like to attack bad breeders, please go after those in the newspapers that sell parvo puppies, or all those shikapoopoo/chihualabroodle wacko things that were never tested for any type of genetic issues before breeding and charge higher prices than i do.

Tom King
Jun. 30, 2010, 04:04 PM
As breeders, our Guarantee covers congenital illnesses or issues that need to be treated for life up to the price of the puppy. We also will buy the dog back at anytime for any reason. The puppy buyers are to have their own vet appointment as soon as they can after they get the pup home and if there are any issues (there never have been for 6 generations) we will pay for the treatment. Show/breeding dogs are $2500 and you have to be a friend of ours that we know to get one, pets are $2000.

Being a responsible breeder simply means being responsible.

We also feel the breeder is responsible to provide not only the best quality, from health tested parents, that the breeder can possibly produce, but also provide a good citizen ready to move into it's new family sleeping calmly in a crate at night and already having a good start on potty training (these are dogs that live in the house). Current 10 week old litter that just left had free run of the great room with several litter boxes available and no accidents. We developed a system that starts at 3 1/2 weeks.

We don't make any profit to amount to anything on our 3 or 4 litters a year with all the health testing and upkeep of our pack. I wouldn't dream of selling dogs for 3 to 600 bucks.

For what it's worth.
www.starbornhavanasilkdogs.com (http://www.starbornhavanasilkdogs.com)

DandyMatiz
Jun. 30, 2010, 04:09 PM
i would say that the vet bills are your responsibility, if they choose to return the puppies. Right now, you have no control over the puppies, and can't assess the condition. I would not be blindly paying bills for something that is not for sure a cause of exposure to something on your property, and not something that they did. If it is related to the Giardia then I'd pay, otherwise, I'd refund there money with the return of the pups.

I think the that having a "will always take back" policy is good... But I wouldn't buy back the puppies. But a "will take back to rehome" is a good idea I think...

Tom King
Jun. 30, 2010, 04:36 PM
Yes our buyback clause is not simply a refund. For instance, one puppy buyer from Detroit, then a homemaker, had her husband leave her and she had to work two jobs to make payments that he walked away from. Without getting into that, to make a long story short, she no longer had time for the dog. Pam flew to Detroit, brought the now year old dog back here, took two weeks to find a new home-great home, and the original owner got the difference between the price originally paid for the pup, Pam's trip expenses, and the new sale price (now discounted some since it was no longer a new pup and needed some retraining).

The only other one was an owner that became terminally ill and we just bought that dog back for it's purchase price.

Also we feel that part of being a responsible breeder is finding only good homes for the dogs to start with and this alleviates a lot of problems with having to take dogs back.

Tamara in TN
Jun. 30, 2010, 04:39 PM
For what it's worth.
www.starbornhavanasilkdogs.com (http://www.starbornhavanasilkdogs.com)

oh my lord :eek::eek:totally OT but those are adorable...and
I'm not normally a little dog lover...

Tamara in TN

JanM
Jun. 30, 2010, 05:35 PM
Also, I wonder if the pups got into something in the yard that was overlooked. I had a small dog that ate berries from a Virginia Creeper (or at least that's what I thought it was and I didn't know that the creepers had berries) and got very ill from it. She basically had pancreatitis, and this was over 10 years ago when no one had warned me about berries or grape consumption. And I've also had problems with people throwing junk food over the fence when I lived there too. The neighbors had young kids that were totally unsupervised who liked to do things like toss fruit pits or cores in my yard. I finally started going outside and combing the yard for junk after the one dog fetched a totally dried out complete doughnut into the house and dropped it at my feet. And this is the time of year that some fruit might be dropping in a yard too. And some places the change in water and food might be enough to do serious upset to a young puppy. I doubt there will be a good resolution to this, because the solution of taking the pups back was rejected and paying the second vet bill seems unfair to me since there wasn't a provable diagnosis.

vacation1
Jun. 30, 2010, 05:57 PM
Taking in a foster animal while you have a litter on the ground is courting trouble. I don't mean to beat up on the OP, but I think that paying for the vet treatment of sick puppies who became ill because of your decisions is NOT somehow above and beyond, and the buyers are being entirely reasonable to expect you to pay for that vet treatment. You were honest with them about the possibility, and that was great, but that didn't somehow limit your responsibility. It's very unfortunate that some got sick, and so sick, and that your husband is looking at a layoff in 4 months, but that's the risk of breeding animals. The only people who make money or break even on it are bottom-feeders.


So how long do you expect your breeder to keep paying for something you cant prove is a problem they came with?

I wouldn't expect a breeder to pay for, say, a flea dip 6 years later, or a skin infection when the puppy's 10. But according to your story, the puppies became sick within a week with an illness you know they were exposed to at your kennel, seemed to recover, then got sick again after a few days. Either it's the same thing, or it's a new problem - in which case, the giardia attack certainly helped that new problem happen as it weakened the puppies' resistance. So it's your responsibility.


These pups were not sick the minute they went home. It was 4 days later that they started having diarhea. For 4 days, they were perfectly happy, healthy puppies.

They may have looked healthy, but they obviously weren't.


This buyer did not notify me the dogs had gone to the vet until AFTER. I did not have the option to take the dogs back to my vet, which to be honest, i would have MUCH prefered so i could have monitored the situation and would have driven the 6hrs to pick them up, even if i had to rig an IV in the car and line everything with newspapers to get them there.

I'd have laughed in your face if I was the new owner and you proposed a) taking my puppy to your vet instead of the one I know and trust, and b) dragging my sick puppy 6 hours to your vet just so you could be super-sure my vet wasn't overcharging you. Really, this seems reasonable to you?


For breed/show dogs we guarantee hips for 3yrs, eyes for 2yrs. For pets, only one year on both. I have never met a pet owner that will pay the money to OFA hips... For pet pups, obviously the price is MUCH discounted and with that discount comes a guarantee that covers less. If there were to be a severe genetic issue with hips or eyes, it will show in the first year in my experience.

I'm not sure I understand this logic; surely even a pet owner who doesn't want to pay to OFA hips will notice if their 2-year-old dog develops problems climbing stairs, running or walking? Even pet-quality dogs need functional hips. Since you say you keep nearly all the show-quality pups you produce, your limitation on the guarantee for all the pups you sell basically makes your guarantee virtually cost-free for you.

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 30, 2010, 05:59 PM
Tom - GORGEOUS dogs. I could not charge your prices, i breed aussies, nothing quite so rare and showey as your breed. I have to "compete" against the backyard breeder down the road that sells aussies for $250... To sell my pet pups, i have to stay competitive or i would still have them all. I have let a couple "mismark" pups (pups with too much white for the breed standard) go for $300, my bottom dollar, due to them simply being very oddly marked that only a unique owner could love... To put it lovingly... :) Sometimes i wonder why i'm not breeding Goldens or GSDs that i dont have to worry about what kind of markings i might get. Otherwise, my starting price is $600 for a pet pup (usually being the odder marked tri) and go up to $1000. This is competive for a pet pup of my breed, if not on the high side for the better breeders out there.

It is in our guarantee to ALWAYS take a puppy back and we MUST be notified if a dog is placed elsewhere, or is being sold. I have bought a couple dogs back when situations needed it. I also have in my contract that if the dog is found to be in a poor situation (neglect, abuse, etc) that we can take back the puppy at any time. My contract is four pages long and has always served me well until this.

The dog owner wishes to no longer speak to us due to her "disapointment." Which greatly upsets me as i will probably never get to see how these dogs grow up.

As a side note, this owner has 3 kids under the age of 8, those puppies probably had a good lot of stuff to get into and get sick from. But we'll never know what happened for the second vet visit. :(

Bluey
Jun. 30, 2010, 06:11 PM
Tom - GORGEOUS dogs. I could not charge your prices, i breed aussies, nothing quite so rare and showey as your breed. I have to "compete" against the backyard breeder down the road that sells aussies for $250... To sell my pet pups, i have to stay competitive or i would still have them all. I have let a couple "mismark" pups (pups with too much white for the breed standard) go for $300, my bottom dollar, due to them simply being very oddly marked that only a unique owner could love... To put it lovingly... :) Sometimes i wonder why i'm not breeding Goldens or GSDs that i dont have to worry about what kind of markings i might get. Otherwise, my starting price is $600 for a pet pup (usually being the odder marked tri) and go up to $1000. This is competive for a pet pup of my breed, if not on the high side for the better breeders out there.

It is in our guarantee to ALWAYS take a puppy back and we MUST be notified if a dog is placed elsewhere, or is being sold. I have bought a couple dogs back when situations needed it. I also have in my contract that if the dog is found to be in a poor situation (neglect, abuse, etc) that we can take back the puppy at any time. My contract is four pages long and has always served me well until this.

The dog owner wishes to no longer speak to us due to her "disapointment." Which greatly upsets me as i will probably never get to see how these dogs grow up.

As a side note, this owner has 3 kids under the age of 8, those puppies probably had a good lot of stuff to get into and get sick from. But we'll never know what happened for the second vet visit. :(

Sounds like you sold TWO puppies to ONE household?

That is a big no-no in dog circles, because of so many possible problems from that, some that won't be obvious until later in life, if the dogs mature into dominant individuals and fights ensue, where one has to be then rehomed.

We see that in our basic dog classes to the public, where some breeder sold some unsuspecting owner two puppies and the problems they have from trying to raise two puppies at the same time.:(

One of them just recently, a local family with two ACDs they kept as family/yard dogs, so little training and as they became adults, they fought so bad one killed the other, for a while was just one there, now there is none, don't know what happened.:no:

Rarely a breeder will do that, selling to another breeder, that will know to raise them independently, but families don't know any better, or don't do it right if they know.

Maybe I am reading this wrong and you didn't sell two puppies to the same people?

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 30, 2010, 06:23 PM
But according to your story, the puppies became sick within a week with an illness you know they were exposed to at your kennel, seemed to recover, then got sick again after a few days. Either it's the same thing, or it's a new problem - in which case, the giardia attack certainly helped that new problem happen as it weakened the puppies' resistance. So it's your responsibility.

I do not think i've mentioned that the pups got sick the second time (7 days after the first) while supposedly still on Metronidizole for the Giardia. I dont know if there could have been live cycles still going on making the pups still have runny poop while on medication after 7 days. My vet thinks not, but i'm not a vet, so i dont know otherwise. From my talk with the vet today, she feels it was a toxic reaction, they got into something they shouldnt have, which caused a gastroinestinal issue that started the diarhea again and vomitting. Did the giardia already pull them down and leave them open to getting sick from something else? Sure, it's possible. And so is a new environment, and different water, and being on different food (which i was told they changed cold turkey to their food "that was better" -beniful from walmart- sigh...- and then went straight onto the medicated food, they had never had grains/glutens before leaving here), and going for walks around the block as they told me they were starting leash training around the block, they were healthy enough to be "little brats" and chew on the leash while at it.

So do you still feel the breeder is liable for a possible toxic reaction to something in the new owners home?



They may have looked healthy, but they obviously weren't.

They had seen my vet 4 times before going home, that's 4 exams and 4 fecals. If my vet cant find some serious life threatening illness in 4 visits, all i can assume is that the puppy is healthy. If your pup comes home with a roundworm, even after being dewormed as often they safely can be by my vet, would you consider it unhealthy? Because giardia is a parasite, just like roundworms, it just causes a worse case of runny poop. And it was not found in any of them (but i'll agree it's very hard to find) before they left. I disclosed the issue, i even offered to refund money if they had a problem with it, all buyers took their pups anyway.


I'd have laughed in your face if I was the new owner and you proposed a) taking my puppy to your vet instead of the one I know and trust, and b) dragging my sick puppy 6 hours to your vet just so you could be super-sure my vet wasn't overcharging you. Really, this seems reasonable to you?

I do not know where i said anywhere that i didnt want to use their vet because she's overcharging. It is high, but i paid the first bill no questions asked. I paid a good chunk of the second bill for issues related to giardia only because if "I" had my pups at my vet, i wouldnt have allowed the Cerenia shot to be given to a pup under 16 weeks of age, and i wouldnt have put them on Albon or 2 different types of medicated food... For future puppy sales, if i ever sell again after this, and frankly, i REALLY doubt it, i will require that a sick puppy be returned for full refund so that I can take care of the situation, once better, it will be offered back to that buyer if they are still interested in it. That way i can monitor it and not have to rely on an owner that i dont know if i can trust anymore.


I'm not sure I understand this logic; surely even a pet owner who doesn't want to pay to OFA hips will notice if their 2-year-old dog develops problems climbing stairs, running or walking? Even pet-quality dogs need functional hips. Since you say you keep nearly all the show-quality pups you produce, your limitation on the guarantee for all the pups you sell basically makes your guarantee virtually cost-free for you.

I guess you are right. This is the way we have sold pups for the past 8yrs. This is how all of the contracts of pups i have purchased from other reputible breeders are worded as well. I have only found a few that offer a pet pup guarantee of more than one year. Knowing the person that i am, if a pup was found with something a couple years down the road and had no reason to have it (wasnt working livestock or somewhere to get nailed out in the pasture by a horse, wasnt jumping 3ft fences, etc...), geesh, even if i knew it WAS doing those things, and it went downhill, i would cover that dog to the best of my ability because i would feel bad.

And maybe that's what makes breeding not for me anymore. I feel too bad and i suck at being mean.

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 30, 2010, 06:28 PM
Yes, it is two pups to the same family, and we did talk at length about this.

However, they are actually not from the same litter as one was a single pup from another female that disowned her at 3 weeks of age. My other momma dog adopted her until she was weaned, and she grew up with the other pups in that litter and though she has a different name on her pedigree, you will probably always find me calling her a daughter of the wrong mom.

But i did warn the buyers of the issues since they still grew up together. They told me they were experienced with it, and they used to breed (i think not now as more conversations have happened). Because they are a larger family and have an older dog (9 i think) that gave the three kids dogs of their own to work independently at their obedience group. It all truely sounded "good" before all this. I've met very different people after the fact.

MafiaPrincess
Jun. 30, 2010, 06:32 PM
Prelim OFA hips are mainly so people don't 'waste' money and effort championing show stock when poor test results would mean they wouldn't be bred down the road.. They are fairly accurate but not 100%. No breeder I am close to takes prelim OFA hips as the final word on how their dogs hips are.

A one year guarantee on pet puppies is no better than a pet store. Petland had a one year health guarantee on my puppymill rescue.

Not every breeder I am close with has lifetime guarantees.. many acknowledge that environment can play a large role in health and that no matter how well put together their dogs are, that is not their fault.

Most offer 2 years minimum upwards of 5 years even on pet pups.

I like to look at entire lines of dogs health testing. Pets or not I want to see what is being thrown from that pool of genetics. Many of the top breeders I know in the show ring and sports have health testing as part of their contract in buying a puppy from their kennel.

A one year health guarantee is pretty worthless unfortunately. If the contracts you've used to create your own all have that for pet pups, maybe consider looking at dog specific and breeder specific forums and lists for help to improve yours.

Guin
Jun. 30, 2010, 07:04 PM
You sold a puppy to a family with three children under the age of 8?

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt as a responsible breeder, but I am changing my opinion pretty rapidly.

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 30, 2010, 07:09 PM
they were 6, 7, and 8 (busy family), oldest might have been 9.

You are talking to the wrong person. I grew up showing dogs in 4-H and started showing at 7... Young kids do not mean bad owners. No, i did not come from a dog loving/breeding family. I started with a mutt i rescued and it was all me, i had a "dog show mom" instead of a soccer mom.

I started the same thing with my first horse at 12. I did not come from parents that knew anything about horses. But i saved my money and bought it myself and asked all the questions, my parents did nothing. I wouldnt hesitate to sell ponies to kids either if they sound capable. And i did, i used to do hunter pony resales, and no, they didnt all go to upscale boarding facililities with big wig trainers, i sold to backyard homes and kids on the local circuit doing the best they could. My youngest client was a very professional little 6yr old that blew me away. Will never forget her.

One of the funnest/brightest girls i knew was winning belt buckles barrel racing at the age of 4, she would not let a soul care for her horse as she didnt think they did it good enough.

Kids can be awesome if you give them the opportunity. Better than adults.

Tom King
Jun. 30, 2010, 07:44 PM
You sold a puppy to a family with three children under the age of 8?

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt as a responsible breeder, but I am changing my opinion pretty rapidly.


We have too. Plenty of times. We do have to meet the family and see how the children interact and see if they follow instructions. More times than not, they are quite capable and we feel that being raised with animals is one of the best things for children.

Now if they are too young to the point that they just will not leave the animal alone when they should and will continue to go after it even when told not to-like reaching under furniture even after told not too-then that family will have to wait. That's happened a few times too and most of the time they come back in a year or two.

I take it you haven't raised children of your own.

Marshfield
Jun. 30, 2010, 08:50 PM
As a veterinarian and breeder, I would expect to be footing the bill. by your own admission, the puppies likely left incubating the giardia. And the giardia could very well have set them up for additional illnesses. And, veterinarian cost vary by region. What you list would be about par for my area.

Guin
Jun. 30, 2010, 08:53 PM
I take it you haven't raised children of your own.

Think again. I have two children and did not get a dog until they were eight and ten. I simply think that any family with three little kids under the age of eight has NO TIME to handle the demands of a puppy as well as three little kids running around. The breeders I found wouldn't consider selling to families with children under the age of six, and I agree with that policy.

vacation1
Jun. 30, 2010, 09:13 PM
So do you still feel the breeder is liable for a possible toxic reaction to something in the new owners home?

In this situation, yes. Could the puppies have picked up a rotten mouse corpse and gotten sick thereby? Sure. But come on now. That's like hearing hoofbeats and looking for zebras. Unfortunately, the situation with the foster makes it all too likely that the puppies' illness is related to your foster dog's illness. I agree with you about the Beneful - awful food. My dog projectile vomited every single time she ate it - had to throw the bag away.

For future puppy sales, if i ever sell again after this, and frankly, i REALLY doubt it, i will require that a sick puppy be returned for full refund so that I can take care of the situation, once better, it will be offered back to that buyer if they are still interested in it. That way i can monitor it and not have to rely on an owner that i dont know if i can trust anymore

I may have missed some details, but it seems as if the only reason you're distrustful of these buyers is because they've expected you to pay for a second round of vet treatments?


One of the funnest/brightest girls i knew was winning belt buckles barrel racing at the age of 4, she would not let a soul care for her horse as she didnt think they did it good enough. Kids can be awesome if you give them the opportunity. Better than adults.

They can be awesome adults eventually too, if you give them the chance to grow up:lol:

butlerfamilyzoo
Jun. 30, 2010, 09:43 PM
I'm distrustful of the buyers due to conflicting stories. When they first called me after the second visit, i was told there was a bacterial infection in the intestines that was very severe and i need to make sure MY dogs were not all carying this bacteria?? I panic... Of course, who wouldnt.

Now yes, i do know that when at a vet some owners lose their brains and only listen to the words, they will get better... So perhaps they just really misunderstood.

I called her vet and then got the run down of what really was going on. And her vet could not confirm giardia, and flat out told me she thought there was more going on. She said that she asked the owners if they had taken their dogs to petsmart or around other dogs. And then told me flat out, "you cant always believe what answers you get" and she suspected parvo (which is why they ruled it out) or exposure to something toxic.

I contacted the owner back and she told me they DID test for giardia again and they were totally LOADED with it and that they sent off a test for something else that they thought they were infested with too... Which is when i asked her to send me the bill so i could review it with my vet, and i told her i would cover whatever is giardia related.

I get the bill, no fecal was done, no giardia test was done, no tests were sent off, the only test there was Parvo that the owner didnt even tell me was done, but i knew from the vet call.

I've refunded her for what i feel we are liable for, and it was not a decision lightly made, without knowing more and the pups making a miraculous recovery overnight with no issues since (this happening 4 days ago)... I've offered to pay the bill in full and refund the purchase price of the pups if she will return them, she wont, and that's ok. She has said she will not talk with me further, and that is ok too.

Again, her vet is pricey, but that is not the issue. The issue is if it is still giardia or not, because nothing was proven, i've done what sits best on my shoulders with this situation.

It is all done now. I will respect her wish to not contact her.

Moderator 1
Jun. 30, 2010, 10:21 PM
As this thread isn't horse- or really farm-related and the OP has already gotten lots of feedback, we're going to close the thread.

Thanks!
Mod 1