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sch1star
Jun. 28, 2010, 01:34 PM
When is an E an E, and when is it a TE? Is the designation of a TE fully at the discretion of the GJ?

My impression was that a TE is an elimination not related to a disobedience (e.g., error of course, boots in D, etc). However, I just finished a search of the rule book for TE, Technical, and Technical Elimination, and it appears nowhere (lots of TDs...no TEs), so maybe I just fabricated this idea?

Janet
Jun. 28, 2010, 01:41 PM
Not in the rule book (though it should be).

It is in "Guidelines for Scoring Eventing"

http://useventing.com/resources/files/docs/scoring_guidelines_events.pdf
(go to the USEA web page, and click on "competitions", then "forms and documents", then "Event Supplies: Guidelines for Scoring Eventing").


TE - Technical Elimination: Additional term to indicate
a specific type of elimination that defines an error strictly
related to the actions of the rider; such as, but not limited to:

entering the arena with prohibited saddlery; prohibited dress,
missing a jump, mandatory flag or finish line, etc. Whether this
term should be applied, is at the discretion of the ground jury
and technical delegate.

asterix
Jun. 28, 2010, 01:44 PM
no, you didn't fabricate it. there is definitely such a thing -- just looked up our official results from our horse trials at useventing.com, and folks are listed with "TE"... I know we had several instances of skipping a fence on XC, which is a perfect example of a TE.
I do not think it is at the discretion of the Ground Jury -- certainly not in the case of a missed fence. If you jump 3, pass 4, know that all the jump judges and control are waiting until the moment you leave the ground at fence 5. Then you are eliminated, no ifs ands or buts.

Interesting (*what Janet posted, while I was typing) -- Janet, that makes it sound as though applying the designation "TE" is at the discretion of the Ground Jury (rather than just lumping it in with other "E"s) -- it was my understanding that most of the reasons for receiving a TE, such as missing a jump, prohibited gear, etc, were NOT discretionary. Is this accurate?

sch1star
Jun. 28, 2010, 01:49 PM
Since I just finished a detailed perusal....

Asterix you are right, E is not optional in the case of a deviation from course. But the T part, if I'm reading all this correctly, is.

TD/GJ do not have to make use of the "addidional term." Am I right?

tarheelmd07
Jun. 28, 2010, 01:53 PM
I wonder if what it means by "discretionary" is that it's at the discretion of the GJ to give a TE rather than an E for infractions of dress, tack, missing a fence, etc. - in other words, you still get elminiated (ie: elimination for the offense is not discretionary) for the infraction, it's just whether it goes down on the score sheet as an E or a TE

Janet
Jun. 28, 2010, 02:01 PM
Interesting (*what Janet posted, while I was typing) -- Janet, that makes it sound as though applying the designation "TE" is at the discretion of the Ground Jury (rather than just lumping it in with other "E"s) -- it was my understanding that most of the reasons for receiving a TE, such as missing a jump, prohibited gear, etc, were NOT discretionary. Is this accurate?
Technically, it is discretionary, but in reality it is usually pretty clear cut.

Mostly, the "discretion" comes in things that aren't expressly mentioned in the scoring guidelines (the "etc.,").

For instance, a circle in show jumping, which, added to other refusals, results in E (e.g., a circle and two refusals at Tr and below, a circle and one refusal at P and above). Was that circle because the rider forgot where she was going (or made some other "rider miustake") (effectively "off course"), and thus possibly TE? or a legitimate "disobedience", and thus E?

Janet
Jun. 28, 2010, 02:06 PM
I wonder if what it means by "discretionary" is that it's at the discretion of the GJ to give a TE rather than an E for infractions of dress, tack, missing a fence, etc. - in other words, you still get elminiated (ie: elimination for the offense is not discretionary) for the infraction, it's just whether it goes down on the score sheet as an E or a TE

Yes, in this case it means that the discretion is whether it is "E" or "TE".


But beyond that, in some cases Elimination is mandatory, but in others even that is discretionary (e.g., incorrect tack is manadatory, incorrect dress in discretionary).

JFS
Jun. 28, 2010, 03:27 PM
I encouraged the development of the TE especially since the horses' records are now so easily accessible on line. Basically I felt that the horse shouldn't be held credited with an E when it was due to the rider doing something stupid. So basically when you see a TE, it's you know it was a rider mistake not a horse mistake.

Jackie

sch1star
Jun. 28, 2010, 09:09 PM
Jackie I think that makes sense...but do you think it will become part of the rules proper?

JFS
Jun. 29, 2010, 12:40 PM
It probably should be published somewhere. Although much regarding cross country fences other than heights & spreads are only published in the guidelines for cross country fences. So who knows.