Show manager wouldn't let me wait for my trainer to watch me go.:( [Archive]

hifi

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:17 AM

My trainer had three horses in the grand prix while I was in the small jumper ring. The manager didn't want me to wait for her and suggested this other trainer school me. I have nothing at all against the other trainer but I thought it was so unfair. It was my first time at a true 3' and I was so nervous. I alway choke when my trainer isn't able to be there. It was the last class of my show and my horse stopped twice. I finished up and did it but really didn't want it to end that way. It was totally out of my trainer's hands. The question to you guys is...If the cash register in running in both rings, figuratively, should management accomidate both cash registers??? They obviously want the money from both rings, and I am the customer, why can't they accomidate?
Your thoughts, Please.

hifi

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:17 AM

Timex

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:24 AM

sorry, but i get really aggravated when people hold up the rest of the show because their trainer isn't there to help them. if you are ready to show, esp an adult showing 3', then you should be ready to do it sans trainer. it's a show, not a lesson. if you aren't ready to ride it without your trainer, then why are you there? and i understand that you're the paying customer, but so am i, so why should i wait for you? sorry, but that's my honest opinion.

RumoursFollow

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:28 AM

What did your trainer think?

I think my trainer would have a conniption! I pay good money for my trainer's advice. I don't need him to be there to "help me around the ring" but I pay for his expertise and I expect him to be there to tell me what I did wrong and how to improve it when I come out of the ring. If I didnt want or need for him to be there, I wouldn't pay for it.

I'd tell show management I'd be glad to go in alone if they wanted to pay my trainer's fee for the day.

SGray

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:29 AM

ditto Timex

zedcadjna

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:32 AM

I do have to agree w/ Timex, but I also understand where you are coming from.. If I have a students in 2 rings at once, I will let management know, and sometimes they will put my student at the bk of the list..

But not all shows do this...We are paying just like you!! Sometimes we just have to go trainer or not..

If I tell my students Im going to another ring and the ingate wont let her go last I tell her to go ahead, I will try to make it there.

Im sorry it happened to you, and maybe your trainer can get an assistant to go to shows w/ you all...

Show Hunter

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:33 AM

That is SUCH bull**** (on the manager's part). Sorry, but if there is an unavoidable conflict, then the manager is totally out of line. Never have I seen a professional, experienced manager do anything like this, nor would I tolerate it if it happened to me. The biggest shows in the country always have conflicts like this, and experienced gate-people always work with exhibitors and trainers to move people around in the order so that the trainer can be there for their students' rounds. Sometimes a ring has to be empty for a bit, but that's just the way it goes, if there are unaviodable conflicts. To suggest that you school with someone else is really out of line, and I would be furious.

As for being able to school yourself? Personally, I pay my trainers so that I have help warming up and critiquing my round. Could I do it alone? Sure. But I want my trainer there to help me and coach me and clap for me (if I am good http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). Amateurs and Juniors have every right to this if it is what they want and are paying for.

creseida

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:33 AM

I agree with Timex. A show is where you are showing off what you know and are well schooled at. You should be ready to step into the ring the moment your horse steps off the trailer. You aren't going to learn something new in the warm up area; that isn't what warming up is all about. This may be a bit harsh, but I see no reason a show should be held up for one competitor so their trainer can hold their hand. It is unfair to the other competitors who are ready to go.

Your trainer should already have schooled you in the schooling ring at some point during the morning already, and you should have already had a game plan from watching the other competitors. Even at the lower (novice) levels, the courses are generally the same as the Lows or Ch/Adults, and you should have had some idea how the courses rode from watching them.

RedEqHunter

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:34 AM

I agree with Timex.

Alternatively, could you have schooled earlier in the day? I realize it's not exactly the same as tuning up right before you go into the ring, but it's better than nothing.

Although, if I were that unsure, I would've scratched. A horse usually picks up on its rider's tension and it's just a bad experience all around.

As far as the "cash register" thing, try looking at it this way. You were one person that wanted to hold up many other competitors. Do you think it's fair to them? Would you like it if you were held up and had to stand around an extra half an hour in the hot sun? If the management waited for every rider to be "ready", shows wouldn't end until after midnight.

Shows are a time to "show" how prepared you are. Not how unprepared you are.

SGray

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:35 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hifi:
My trainer had three horses in the grand prix while I was in the small jumper ring...../QUOTE]

if you needed your trainers undivided attention then perhaps a show where he/she was not riding 3 horses would have been better for your first try at a new level?

ChampionMercedes

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:38 AM

If you can't show in a class or warmup without your trainer than you shouldn't be showing. Yes it's handy to have them there, but it's not the shows job to cater to everyone there. Yes you are paying them, but that is paying for the jumps, ring care, judges, stalls etc. It's not paying for them to babysit you.

hifi

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Timex:
sorry, but i get really aggravated when people hold up the rest of the show because their trainer isn't there to help them. if you are ready to show, esp an adult showing 3', then you should be ready to do it sans trainer. it's a show, not a lesson. if you aren't ready to ride it without your trainer, then why are you there? and i understand that you're the paying customer, but so am i, so why should i wait for you? sorry, but that's my honest opinion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, I guess if it is NOT a lesson, then I shouldn't be learning anything from my showing. I always was under the impression that showing was to learn, not to show off what you know, esp. at an amateur level. I was told you could only get better by challanging yourself even if you aren't ready to win. I do agree I asked for your opinion so I can't get mad. I do appreciate your opinion. I am just fustrated. That ring ended up first every day.

OverOxer

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:42 AM

I have to agree with Timex on this one. This was between you and your trainer and by all means, you can work out some arrangement regarding fees if he/she doesn't hold up his/her end of the deal, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles otherwise. Trainer or no trainer, when it's your turn to go in the ring, it's your turn. I appreciate that it was your first time at 3', but heck, if you're ready to do it at a show, surely you must be comfortable enough to go in there without a trainer? After all, you're riding the horse, not your trainer.

I do understand your situation and forgive me if I sound blunt but, like Timex, I find it absolutely mad if the show is held up because riders won't go into the ring without their trainers. Shows lack of respect for the other riders who are also paying customers. Again, my apologies for sounding a bit harsh but really, I find it rather unfair sometimes when the show is held up.

SillyMillie

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:42 AM

I have to say I have not been to a show where the beginner three foot jumpers were still going on while the GP was running. For this very reason...you'd have a lot of three footers without trainers.

hifi

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ChampionMercedes:
If you can't show in a class or warmup without your trainer than you shouldn't be showing. Yes it's handy to have them there, but it's not the shows job to cater to everyone there. Yes you are paying them, but that is paying for the jumps, ring care, judges, stalls etc. It's not paying for them to babysit you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Again, I am an amateur and the only was I can learn is by feed back. I beleive lessons are different than showin, nerves, etc. I don't believe that she needs to BABYSIT me. I should have just scratched.

ChampionMercedes

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:48 AM

Maybe next time bring a video camera and have someone tape you? That way you and your trainer can go over it later in case he/she can't be there to watch. As a young rider (when I was 12 & 13) I went to several large 'A' shows without a trainer because our schedules were different. It's not always easy, especially with difficult horses, but my trainers always taught me to be independant and not rely on them 100% of the time. Video cameras *really* help.

Flash44

Jun. 9, 2004, 10:54 AM

I would think that a trainer who had 3 horses in the GP ring would have at least one assistant to keep his customers chugging along while he was riding!

I see this issue from both sides - as a paying customer, I want to get full benefits of what I am paying for. However, a trainer with multiple students/rides in multiple rings should have a side kick to help get things done in a timely manner. Also, if you can go to a horse show, you should be able to be *mostly* self sufficient and be able to get your horse warmed up and your course learned without your trainer.

Smart Alec

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:02 AM

I can see both sides of the coin on this one but I think there is a diplomatic solution.

At one of my last shows my trainer had quite a lot of students showing...in different rings....similar times. When it came time for me to put my number in for the order of go, I asked the gate person to put me in a little later if possible. For the most part this did work. However, for one of my over fences classes I went in regardless that my trainer was busy coaching at another ring. She knew I was going to be going soon but I went in because I didn't want to hold people up.
As nervous as I was initially, I took a deep breath and said...I can do this. We do this at home, we've done it at a show, we can do this. The whole time I rode my course my trainer's voice was in my head and I was really thinking. At one point my trainer did make it over and watched my round and she felt bad she had to be coaching a walk trotter over me. Really it wasn't a problem for me because the walk trotter needed her more, she is such a good coach, I want to be independant and I was proud of myself.

I know it must've been nerve-racking for you but you must be a really good rider to be showing 3' so I think you could do it next time. Even if you have mistakes...that's how you'll learn. It was unfortunate that they made you go in, but you have to turn this around for yourself and next time...I say just go for it.

Darkstar

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RumoursFollow:
What did your trainer think?

I think my trainer would have a conniption! I pay good money for my trainer's advice. I don't need him to be there to "help me around the ring" but I pay for his expertise and I expect him to be there to tell me what I did wrong and how to improve it when I come out of the ring. If I didnt want or need for him to be there, I wouldn't pay for it.

I'd tell show management I'd be glad to go in alone if they wanted to pay my trainer's fee for the day. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said - I think you are spot on. You pay the money - so therefore you are entitled to having your trainer with you. Plus - like Show Hunter mentioned, moving people around happens all the time at big shows. The management should have either helped you out or be better prepared. And I know that alot of people think that show's are not a schooling enviroment, but in every way they are. You learn new things every time you ride, and especially if it's your first time in a new division - IT IS SCHOOLING ! You havn't done it before so therefore it will serve as a learning experiance. Personally I would want my trainer there if it was my first time, especially if things were to go wrong.

hifi

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:08 AM

Thank you for all your thoughtful replys.

Dinah-do

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:11 AM

At the H/J shows here (BC Canada) the GP ring has priority and the rest fits in.Gate holds have gone too far - shows run too late (IMO)I recently saw a gate hold ( hack class) for a rider in the GP ring. Some of the hack class scratched because of the wait. Shows are not a place to have a lesson. A dressage trainer in this area almost never goes to a show with his clients. He figures that if he's done his job they don't need him.

Scarlet 1

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:12 AM

I don't think a lot of the responses on this thread are realistic or consistent with what happens at the A shows, at least not the ones on the east coast. There are not a lot of BNTs who would put up with this. I also get very frustrated with an open ring and time delays, but as long as the trainer is accomodating, management should work with them.

bubblese

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:16 AM

To get back on the original question concerning show managment, NOT showing without a trainer present...

I feel if show management wants anyone to enter the ring not prepared correctly, in this case a trainer conflict, they can either hold the gate or refund your entries, period. Making you scratch or enter without a trainer present is not fair to you or your horse. Yes, many people do not see the point of having a trainer/coach, but for those of us that do we have that right.

Seahorsefarmtobe

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:17 AM

Gotta agree with Timex & Dinah-do on this one. frankly, I think it is just plain rude, selfish and not good sportsmanship to hold up a class. You should be ready to go when it's your time - period.

tidy rabbit

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:19 AM

Do you really think that you wouldn't have had the 2 stops with your trainer present?

I think you might try a sports physcologist if this is the case.

If it was a lack of being able to discuss the course with someone you should have utilized the trainer who was available to make sure you had as good a round as possible over that particular course.

RugBug

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dinah-do:
A dressage trainer in this area almost never goes to a show with his clients. He figures that if he's done his job they don't need him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just can't resist saying this:

When the chance for injury is as high in dressage as it is over fences, then you can compare the two.

clearound

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Show Hunter:
That is SUCH bull**** (on the manager's part). Sorry, but if there is an unavoidable conflict, then the manager is totally out of line. Never have I seen a professional, experienced manager do anything like this, nor would I tolerate it if it happened to me. The biggest shows in the country always have conflicts like this, and experienced gate-people always work with exhibitors and trainers to move people around in the order so that the trainer can be there for their students' rounds. Sometimes a ring has to be empty for a bit, but that's just the way it goes, if there are unaviodable conflicts. To suggest that you school with someone else is really out of line, and I would be furious.

As for being able to school yourself? Personally, I pay my trainers so that I have help warming up and critiquing my round. Could I do it alone? Sure. But I want my trainer there to help me and coach me and clap for me (if I am good http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). Amateurs and Juniors have every right to this if it is what they want and are paying for. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could not agree more with you on this one!

All one has to do is take some lessons from WEF where there are 9 rings which can be far apart. Trainers have conflicts all over the place and show management always is helpful in sorting it out.

Personally, I wouldn't go back to that show.

breezymeadow

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:22 AM

I have to agree somewhat with BOTH sides of this thread.

1. If you REALLY feel that you need your trainer in order to show your best at whatever level you're showing at, then you're really NOT ready to show at that level. I really felt SO lucky to have a trainer who would have his students enter classes one level BENEATH what they were currently successfully schooling at. Students were confident, won nice ribbons, horses' weren't overfaced, etc.

2. HOWEVER - if your trainer has you showing at classes at &/or above what you're doing in your lessons & is CHARGING you for "training" at the show, than said trainer should be there - for schooling & friggin' ringside. Period. Also, if said trainer has not spelled out ahead of time that you "might be on your own" during your time in the ring, then again - you are due for a refund. It's a business just like any other business. You're not paying a training/schooling fee for nothing.

SaudiHunter

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:23 AM

I take exception that some refered to the original poster's situation as one in which she needed the trainer to hold her hand, or babysit her, or that she should not show if she cannot have her trainer. She obviously can do it without her trainer, but she was merely asking for advice on how to avoid this problem at the next show.

RumoursFollow

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Scarlet 1:
I don't think a lot of the responses on this thread are realistic or consistent with what happens at the A shows, at least not the ones on the east coast. There are not a lot of BNTs who would put up with this. I also get very frustrated with an open ring and time delays, but as long as the trainer is accomodating, management should work with them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. I think it would have been war at many shows. In fact, I've seen trainers get into it big time with gate people who didn't accomodate them.

Its not that I'm incapable of showing without my trainer, its that I dont care to. I pay for him to be there, and therefore I expect him to be. I generally show at shows where there are 3 rings going at a time. My trainer is pretty good at having people needed at all three rings at the same time. I am careful to watch the progress in the other rings and try to get on and go at the very beginning of the class or get on and be warmed up and ready to jump to go last if he has to be at other rings first.

Not that I even do A shows, but you almost never see people going in the ring without a trainer standing there. (and note that I didnt say never!) Maybe at local type shows you dont need it, but at that level you need to be so fine tuned.. you could come out of the ring from what you thought was a really perfect trip and not get a jog. Well if your trainer isnt there to say "well, he might have jumped over himself a teeny bit more than you'd thought to that one jump when you got him a little close" or "did you not feel him swap off in the last stride to that single oxer?" While most of the time these are things you notice on your own, sometimes you just dont. I appreciate my trainer's input. Chances are, at a local show if you have a swap out or a bit of an untidy jump, you might not get heavily penalized for it. But at a big show, where it can make the difference between 1st or 2nd and nothing at all.. it helps having someone at the ring to point out the little things you might have missed.

Show Hunter

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:25 AM

I cannot imagine ANY big "A" show where this would happen - at least, not any that I have been to! Sorry, but it just doesn't happen, and if it does...some trainer will have an absolute fit at the manager and/or gateperson - I've seen it happen, and believe me, it isn't a problem after that....

As another poster mentioned, a well-run show establishes a "priority ring" each day, and that ring is not to be held up at all. The other rings have to accomodate the priority ring, and has to wait for the trainers who have conflicts.

Hifi, you are NOT rude, selfish, unsportsmanlike, etc. No manager should have done what this one did, and frankly, no good manager does do this!

hifi

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:27 AM

Breezymeadow....I am not mad at my trainer, she made every attempt to come down. She was going to walk the course, run down a watch me than get on the second horse in the GP. It just wasn't doable for her, now would I want her to rush for me. I told her I would scratch and she encouraged me to do it any how. I was capable but just wanted her near by. I don't think it was baby sitting but she could evaluate and work on it in my next lesson. I really believe this sport is to better ourselves and our horses and nothing more. Oh and to have fun.

SGray

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by breezymeadow:
2. HOWEVER - if your trainer has you showing at classes at &/or above what you're doing in your lessons & is CHARGING you for "training" at the show, than said trainer should be there - for schooling & friggin' ringside. Period. Also, if said trainer has not spelled out ahead of time that you "might be on your own" during your time in the ring, then again - you are due for a refund. It's a business just like any other business. You're not paying a training/schooling fee for nothing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that I can agree with - a refund from the TRAINER - NOT from the show

hifi

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:29 AM

Show Hunter...Thanks, I really don't think of myself as rude and selfish. I really try to be a good sport, really I think I am a good person.

Go-Go

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:30 AM

I'd have a conversation with your trainer and come up with a plan "B" if s/he can't make it to the ring. I'm not trying ot be harsh to you - lord knows I have been in the situation where you have one that needs to go and the trainer isn't anywhere to be found - but it really isn't fair to make others wait AND having a plan b will ease your mind an dhelp you be less anxious. Your trainer, if she's a grand prix rider, should have known better than to have left you hanging. She could easily have worked out a plan in advance with the ring guys that made everyone happy. Better luck next time, and don't listen to the folks that are harping on you for not being able to go in alone - big bullies.

Ketch

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:30 AM

I completely agree with RF on this one, and was shocked by the initial responses.

At a recent AA show in Aiken, SC, one of the ring guys tried to pull this stunt with my trainer, who was helping a customer at the main hunter ring. He was told by the show management that he would not be asked to work that show in the future.

Trainers have conflicts; it is the job of gate guys to accommodate them. I understand the annoyance of holding up an entire ring, but often the most successful trainers will be spread so very thin (even with the help of assistants) that they simply can't be at all of their rings "on time."

I don't want to start a flame war, but I think those of you who suggest that she show without a trainer are not familiar with how it's done at the big A shows, or by riders who count on their trainers to help them progress with each horse show.

hifi

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:32 AM

I really love my trainer and all she does for me. I hope everyone understands that.

AWIP

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:39 AM

breezymeadow

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by hifi:
Show Hunter...Thanks, I really don't think of myself as rude and selfish. I really try to be a good sport, really I think I am a good person. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think you're rude or selfish either - at all!!!

I think you really just need to sit down with your trainer & go over fees/vs. what actually happens.

I must say that I was lucky enough to have a trainer who did reduce his fees if, by the end of the day, he found that he couldn't "be there" for all of his students due to the show schedule - which we all know is ever-changing. I was "alone" several times, but never felt overfaced because my trainer had put me in classes that he knew I was more than ready for. It really made this trainer stand out as a true "professional", rather than a "I'm just in it for the $$" guy.

BLBGP

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:46 AM

Hifi -

Where was the show? Were you the last to go in the class? If not, I'd say the gate guy bullied you. If you were, then it was an unfortunate turn of events and perhaps you should work with a sports psychologist.

Your trainer is great, but it's also really beneficial to be able to let another trainer help you. I think you learned a big lesson - your nerves are easily rattled at a show and that is something HUGE for an amateur to work on. Next time, you can embrace the experience of working with another trainer and not let it rattle you so much that it effects your riding in the ring.

My old trainer had an accident shortly before a show one time. I was nervous but decided to go without her. I ended up having a blast schooling with Duncan's jumper kids one day and Butch and Lu's the next. The early morning equitation school with Karen Healey was not as fun, but I learned so much. It was like five clinics thrown into one 5 day show. I also had the support of multiple barns rooting for me, not just one. I came out of it a much better rider, no question.

Box-of-Rox

Jun. 9, 2004, 11:47 AM

while someone should, certainly, be ABLE to warm themselves up and go in and show, showing without a trainer simply isn't done. If there was a grand prix, i'm going to guess this was a sizeable show, and at that level the ingate person should be able to judge.

I understand what Timex is saying, but i think it's a seperate issue. "Why do people need trianers at the ring" is a valid question, but it's one to be asked on a bullitin board, not pushed by management at a show that goes against convention.

If I went into the ring without my trainer, I'd be shot dead...I'm surprised he didn't freak out.

Trainers are paid to watch you ride and critique you. Shows are both a learning experience and a test. you are tested by showing, but if everyone went into the ring and laid down a perfect trip they'd have to give out more than one blue ribbon. so obviously you are also supposed to learn and that's why you neeed a trainer there.

Show Hunter

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ketch:
Trainers have conflicts; it is the job of gate guys to accommodate them. I understand the annoyance of holding up an entire ring, but often the most successful trainers will be spread so very thin (even with the help of assistants) that they simply can't be at all of their rings "on time."

I don't want to start a flame war, but I think those of you who suggest that she show without a trainer are not familiar with how it's done at the big A shows, or by riders who count on their trainers to help them progress with each horse show. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well put. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Madeline

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Darkstar:

Well said - I think you are spot on. You pay the money - so therefore you are entitled to having your trainer with you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong. You pay the money to enter the class. If you need your trainer, it's your job and that of the trainer to make sure he's there. NOT the job of show management. And there is nothing ruder than holding up the ring because you have a strange sense of what your entry fee entitles you to.

Seahorsefarmtobe

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Madeline:
And there is nothing ruder than holding up the ring because you have a strange sense of what your entry fee entitles you to. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Entitlement! That's the word I was searching for! Tks Mad.

xegeba

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:04 PM

Box, are you sure you and I don't have the same trainer? Sent the kid in the ring because the gate guy was whining, trainer was at a different ring with another client. No big deal for me, big deal for the kid, HUGE deal for the trainer!!!! The gate guy got yelled at, I was sternly told to never, ever send my kid into the ring, and the kid was told that hell could freeze over, but she was not to go into the ring without the trainer there. Any confusion about what to do in that situation was cleared up right then and there. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Darkstar

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
Box, are you sure you and I don't have the same trainer? Sent the kid in the ring because the gate guy was whining, trainer was at a different ring with another client. No big deal for me, big deal for the kid, HUGE deal for the trainer!!!! The gate guy got yelled at, I was sternly told to never, ever send my kid into the ring, and the kid was told that hell could freeze over, but she was not to go into the ring without the trainer there. Any confusion about what to do in that situation was cleared up right then and there. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was cute - made me laugh. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif How true you are. On another note - to those saying that you just pay for entry fee's. Are you kidding me - the show managers know how much money goes into this sport. At the A level you better well be acommadated, especially when you are spending thousands of dollars per show (not to mention that nice $ 1000,000 junior hunter you just HAVE to ride). (btw - I know not everyone does show on this sort of budget but this is a common occurence at A shows) At an A show money is being poured in big time. The manager knows how it is done - and the way it is done is that almost everyone rides with a trainer. They better make allowences if you are paying that kind of money. Yes it is rude to hold up a class - just ask politely to be moved to the end. I have almost never ran into a gate keeper who could not move you last or first in a situation like that. If the gate keeper is hasseling you - go to the management, and tell them that. They should do something about it.

mcd

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:26 PM

I can see both sides of this, but really, why should our sport be different from other competetive sports? Although many other sports do not have coach and student competing at the same time, you wouldn't really go to another competition (such as gymnastics, for example) without your coach there to well, coach.

Perhaps a lot of this would be eliminated by using an "estimated time in the ring" order of go, similar to what the eventers do - (a few of the shows up here in canada are doing it now) if you event you get your start times ahead of time, can co-ordinate with everyone involved, and if you miss your time, you don't go. I know it's harsh but they try to take into account coaches riding different horses etc. and you basically just make it work. Organizers have too many things to do than be able to please everyone, all the time. For the different rings they could set a start time for the class, take the entry list and just give everyone a time - this seems to work with our jumpers at least, I bet it could work with the hunters especially if you went as a barn group.

But I agree, if you're at a competition, and you're not the LAST person left to go in the class - they really could try and accommodate you one would think. This world is too small to alienate paying customers in either ring!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif michelle.

tyedyecommando

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:29 PM

Some of you have either never moved up a level, or have forgotten how much it helps to have someone there to help give you tips, help plan a ride with you and then evaluate the ride afterwards.

I would never expect someone, who is obviously not a little professional in training, to just show up at the jumper ring and know what the hell they were going to do when they got in the ring. This was 3' jumper, which in my opinion is for people who want to learn to ride around a jumper course at a reasonably low height so that they can make mistakes and learn from them. I don't know the entire situation, but from how it was described the manager sounds like a ass to rush someone who was obviously unprepared mentally for the class. She needed encouragement and coaching. This is usually the reason shows designate a "priority" ring that the show depends on going on schedule and the rest of the rings flow around it. Amazingly this technique seems to make conflict with the one ring decide themself and for time management.

In The Gate

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:32 PM

hifi- were you at Brookside? One of the announcers was giving my trainer a really hard time about that too. They knew we were waiting for her to come from another ring- yet they kept calling for one of our riders to go in over and over agian- even after they saw one of the riders have a nasty stop int he warm up and knock the whole fence over...

We wound up waiting, and my trainer had the manager talk to the person at the ring- and it didn't happen again.

nada clue

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:33 PM

Just another reason I appreciate my trainer-- He shows multiple horses while I show. He also requires/demands that he be present for my rounds (although I did try to sneak one in once, and wouldn't you know he spotted that from 2 rings away!). However, he also makes sure that he takes care of any conflicts himself (since it is his requirement), so I'm not sitting around waiting on him or having to beg the gate person if I can switch around the order of go, or holding everyone up. Lord knows I have enough to worry about remembering the course and the game plan.

Conflicts happen, but usually a courteous heads-up to the gate person as soon as the trainer/student realize it can head most of this off. (And if the gate person agrees to change the order for you, please don't be one of those people who refuses to go first or last even though they are trying to accomodate your conflict! ARGH!). Sorry for the tangential rant!

ESG

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RugBug:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dinah-do:
A dressage trainer in this area almost never goes to a show with his clients. He figures that if he's done his job they don't need him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just can't resist saying this:

When the chance for injury is as high in dressage as it is over fences, then you can compare the two. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand the comparison you're trying to make here. The issue is whether or not hifi (or anyone else) should be expected to go into the ring without her trainer present. I agree with Timex & Dinah-do in that if you're not prepared to show, you're not prepared to show, whether your trainer is watching or not. And as someone else suggested, it makes for a nice compromise if one can have the round videotaped, so the educational value of the trainer watching the round isn't lost. After all, it isn't like the trainer is going to stand there and shriek out directions while you're riding. Or at least they shouldn't, and are not allowed to in many instances. And even if this were allowed and accepted, would you really hear your trainer? I don't think so.

As for the risk factor comparing dressage to jumpers, what the fuh? Like the trainer is going to run out in the ring and catch you or help you steer away from the standard and towards the center of the jump? There's no physical help (in the form of intervention) to be gained from the trainer in any equestrian sport. So why not let students go to shows on their own? Personally, I love a student who doesn't need me to babysit and hand-hold to the point where they won't ride a test or jump a course without me. Mean's I've done my job well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As for the GP ring taking priority, that makes perfect sense. But I agree with those who said that the trainer should have had an assistant or someone else who could oversee a newbie's round when there was a good chance of a conflict. At least, to have someone there to videotape and give another perspective. I mean, it's not like no one had access to a schedule, right? Lack of planning in this instance, perhaps?

ESG

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Madeline:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Darkstar:

Well said - I think you are spot on. You pay the money - so therefore you are entitled to having your trainer with you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong. You pay the money to enter the class. If you need your trainer, it's your job and that of the trainer to make sure he's there. NOT the job of show management. And there is nothing ruder than holding up the ring because you have a strange sense of what your entry fee entitles you to. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep - very well said. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Go-Go

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ESG:
Personally, I love a student who doesn't need me to babysit and hand-hold to the point where they won't ride a test or jump a course without me. Mean's I've done my job well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, then, it's a good thing you aren't training hifi, who didn't ask for anyone's opinion about whether or not she should be able to go in the ring with or without a trainer. She asked what people thought was fair from management in this situation. Yeesh - I'm glad I don't train with you - you'd make me feel like an idjut for asking for advice.

I still think that if there's an upcoming conflict, you and your trainer and the management/ingate person can discuss it earlier in the day and come to a workable solution and/or develop a plan B.

Ketch

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:48 PM

Well-said, Go-Go. If I am paying my trainer umpteen hundred dollars a month, it's fair for me to expect a little handholding when I am at the ingate of a big AA show. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Go-Go

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:54 PM

Thanks, Ketch! I'd wait (and have waited) all day and night for you-know-who! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SED

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:58 PM

Hifi -- I definately feel for your situation.

But I am also influenced by the fact that my daughter has many times schooled and gotten ready to show by the estimated time at the ring -- and then her class is pushed back at the last minute because there is one trainer who isn't there to be with her students. Net result is that my daughter and her horse are hot, exhausted and no longer properly warmed up because of the "hold". Or our trainer had worked carefully all day to keep the "balls in the air" between the various places she is supposed to be for her students, and placed them in the right order to avoid conflicts, and then the classes themselves get started later and later because there are holds at the gate.

Although it is an unfortunate situation, I think that the gate did correct in making you decide to go or scratch. And you did right in giving it a try!

By the way, the main reason our barn is showing at A shows now, instead of local and C shows, is that the training shows generally are supposed to be more generous in holding things up for the trainers to get there. Mainly since training is the purpose of the shows. In A shows, I have always been told that your start times are pretty firm (Ha! -- wish that was really true), and you better be there and ready to go. Makes for a much better experience.

As far as a recommendation, I would certainly recommend that the trainer be the one -- to the extent possible -- to anticipate conflicts, place the go order to minimize them if possible, and use an assistant if they have enough students that the conflicts are inevitable. It sounds like no one did anything wrong in your situation, and it was just bad luck.

LEP Enterprises, LLC

Jun. 9, 2004, 12:59 PM

No way in hell I would have gone in that ring w/o my trainer present.

I've often felt embarrassment and stress waiting for my trainer to get to my ring, but I've never gone in without him at the ingate to coach and critique. Like so many other people have said - its just not done. While I am waiting I get totally warmed up, so that the only thing I need to do is pop over a couple of fences (and sometimes the Assistant trainer or groom helps me with that even). But go in the ring without a coach - no.

ESG

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Go-Go:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ESG:
Personally, I love a student who doesn't need me to babysit and hand-hold to the point where they won't ride a test or jump a course without me. Mean's I've done my job well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, then, it's a good thing you aren't training hifi, who didn't ask for anyone's opinion about whether or not she should be able to go in the ring with or without a trainer. She asked what people thought was fair from management in this situation. Yeesh - I'm glad I don't train with you - you'd make me feel like an idjut for asking for advice.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one said anything about whether or not hifi should have a trainer there - she asked about being hustled by show management to go before she was ready. I wouldn't appreciate it in her place, but I understand the need to be prepared to ride, with or without one's trainer. My point was that she should be ready when she gets to the showgrounds. And if she isn't, and does need "hand holding", to arrange for it in advance. Do you not think that either the rider or trainer might have had a clue that there might be a conflict with the GP? If they read the schedule, that is? If so, and there was no way around it, hifi should have known beforehand. If not, then she needed to be prepared to have someone else coach, or ride on her own and have someone videotape for the trainer to watch afterwards. No, show management wasn't exactly nice, but I agree that it isn't their responsibility to see that everyone's trainer watches every round. That is the job of the trainer, their staff, and their riders.

And if you did ride with me, I'd do whatever it took to make you comfortable enough to perform well at a show. I guess I've just had enough students who are comfortable and confident in what I've taught them and independant enough to go somewhere without me, and I got to like it. I still love to show and take students and new horses, though - nothing can take the place of that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And I wouldn't treat you like an "idjut" unless you kept spelling like that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ketch

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:06 PM

But, ESG, is this at a large A show? Somehow, I doubt it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Go-Go, your trainer was who I immediately thought of when I read the original post. I have many times had to wait for him (and his kids, who usually have multiple rides) and I am happy to do it. Obviously, his close scrutiny and excellent tutelage have paid off . . . look at the way those kids ride!

ESG

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:08 PM

Is what at a large A show? That I'll let my students go alone? Or that I think one should be prepared to ride? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Ketch

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:12 PM

Yes, that you would feel perfectly comfortable allowing your students to show without a trainer. Never in my life have I seen a non-professional rider go in the ring without a trainer standing by, ready to critique his or her trip or quietly offer advice or reassurance as he or she passes the in-gate.

Other

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:14 PM

Wow-what a shitty situation you were put in. I am surprised that any show big enough to host a GP would permit this to happen. Definitely sounds like some miscommunication.

IMO, it takes TWO parties to keep a ring running smoothly and without an empty gate: 1) the ingate person and 2) the trainers. The ring only runs smoothly if these two parties keep eachother well-informed.

Yes, I believe it IS the job of the ingate person to establish orders of go to accomodate the busy schedules of trainers with multiple rides/riders, but the ingate can only work with the info he is given. Thus it is the trainer's responsibility to alert him of potential conflicts well in advance so he can work with the trainer and the other gate guys to keep things moving.

Don't forget, the guys at the ingate get paid to do ONE thing: keep their rings running smoothly and on time. You should never feel guilty about asking them to accomodate your trainer's schedule-that's their job. Unfortunately, it is also your trainers job to let them know what they have going on so they can be worked in. Your trainer gets paid to make sure the show runs smoothly for you.

It sounds like you did a good job dealing with the situation, and it's too bad you felt pressured to do something you felt uncomfortable doing. Hopefully the lines of communication won't get crossed again in the future...

ChampionMercedes

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:15 PM

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ESG:
No one said anything about whether or not hifi should have a trainer there - she asked about being hustled by show management to go before she was ready. I wouldn't appreciate it in her place, but I understand the need to be prepared to ride, with or without one's trainer. My point was that she should be ready when she gets to the showgrounds. And if she isn't, and does need "hand holding", to arrange for it in advance. Do you not think that either the rider or trainer _might_ have had a clue that there might be a conflict with the GP? If they read the schedule, that is? If so, and there was no way around it, hifi should have known beforehand. If not, then she needed to be prepared to have someone else coach, or ride on her own and have someone videotape for the trainer to watch afterwards. No, show management wasn't exactly nice, but I agree that it isn't their responsibility to see that everyone's trainer watches every round. That is the job of the trainer, their staff, and their riders.

And if you did ride with me, I'd do whatever it took to make you comfortable enough to perform well at a show. I guess I've just had enough students who are comfortable and confident in what I've taught them and independant enough to go somewhere without me, and I got to like it. I still love to show and take students and new horses, though - nothing can take the place of that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And I wouldn't treat you like an "idjut" unless you kept spelling like that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I certianly don't think Hifi was paying her trainer for "hand holding" at the horse show. What she and all the rest of us are paying for is TRAINING. How is her trainer going to help in the training process if she doesn't watch Hifi's rounds? What's the point of paying a trainer at all then. In your theory there should be no need for trainers at horseshows at all, because none of us would need them, because we would all be perfect through our tutelage at home. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Please.

Trainers are paid to be at horse shows to watch, react and respond so that their students can learn and move forward in their training based on their experiences at a horse show. If there wasn't anything to be learned from horseshowing we would always place the exact same way against the same people every time. And since when did horse shows EVER run on schedule. Riiiiiiiiight.

Hifi, I think you were bullied by management regardless of the fact that you are competent enough to ride a course by yourself.

Edited to add - what happens to the people who are perfectly competent riders but who just have always had an extreme case of show nerves? Should they not be allowed trainers at the ring but should have to scratch if trainers aren't present?? Everyone's comfort level is different at a horse show but one thing is the same, we are paying our trainers for their training at horse shows. Management should not force us to give up something we have paid for.

Seahorsefarmtobe

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ketch:
Never in my life have I seen a non-professional rider go in the ring without a trainer standing by <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're kidding, right?

Lucassb

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:19 PM

Just a couple of observations.

If there are many competitors waiting for someone to have their trainer present for their round (something I do not think is unreasonable) there is nothing stopping them from going ahead and getting in the ring themselves.

The person waiting for their trainer simply moves down in the order, allowing others to go, and there is no need for the ring to remain empty. Geez, is this not common sense? And common courtesy?

It is NEVER appropriate for management to suggest to an amateur that they should warm up with another professional if their regular trainer is held at another ring. Not only is there an issue of fees, but also one of legal responsibility. Is the substitute trainer going to co-sign the entry form? Is management going to sponsor their training fee? Or is the sub supposed to work with a horse and rider unknown to them for free, just so the order of go need not be altered?

The whole situation is ridiculous and as other posters have pointed out, is not about whether a rider CAN get around a course without the supervision of their trainer or not. We could debate that issue forever without swaying anyone on either side of that debate. However, in this case, the exhibitor was a customer and management was out of line. In such cases, as a customer, I would vote with my feet and encourage others to do the same. There must be other, more exhibitor friendly shows you can patronize.

RugBug

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by A_work_in_progress:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RugBug:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dinah-do:
A dressage trainer in this area almost never goes to a show with his clients. He figures that if he's done his job they don't need him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just can't resist saying this:

When the chance for injury is as high in dressage as it is over fences, then you can compare the two. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well ... I've seen and lived the same case in eventing as well as dressage. When I upgraded to 3' eventing I ended up doing most of my jumping warm ups alone due to trainer conflicts, nervous wreck or not. I believe the two compare just fine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From my understanding and what I've seen, a whole slew, possibly the majority, of eventers ride without trainers for the most part. It seems they do most stuff be themselves and then take lessons every few weeks (this could be a completely wrong assessment, but it's what seems to be the case). If my assumption is at all true...then the comparison is still not the same...they are used to riding without trainer input.

ESG: No, a trainer can't stop an accident in the ring, but if they are there to warm-up a client, they can work on that rider's weaknesses, ones that could lead to some scary stuff. Also at the ring a "remember to ride forward" can be enough to put a nervous riders mind back where it should be.

When missing an extended trot becomes the same thing as getting, for example, an extremely long spot to a fence, then the comparison will sit fine with me.

Box-of-Rox

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:20 PM

i agree...at a hunter/jumper show, the first person in the ring when you come off (and it will happen) is the trainer. They don't need to send the medic in for every fall, but if the hrose and or rider are shaken up, someone they are both familiar with should be the first one in, and people are more likely to have a trainer than a groom.

also, you don't need a trainer to warm you up at a dressage show. you do at a h/j show, because the fences need to be set.

if any h/j trainer had the same attendance record as your dressage trainer, their students would ALL need to have their own personal highly educated groom, and it's a lot easier (and cost effective) to find a trainer that shows up than one of those

ESG

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:21 PM

Well, I've let adult students go to USEA horse trials without me - does that count? Yes, I can oversee their schooling for dressage, cross country and stadium, but once they're in the ring to do their test or jump their course, there isn't squat I can do. I can't even say "Whoa!" or "More leg!" or "Move him up!" while they're jumping or they're eliminated for receiving unsolicted assistance. So perhaps my perspective is a bit different from yours since I came from an eventing background, where no one but the competitor is allowed to ride the horse (or at least, can't pick up a contact) from the time you arrive on the grounds until after the competition is over. You get pretty independant that way, let me tell you. And I guess I pass that on to my students. As far as a hunter class goes, I'll watch, but do they need me? Nope. My folks can pretty well tell what they did wrong and how it should have ridden when they come out - they don't need me for that. And in the jumpers? Well, there's not much I can tell them after the course walk, is there? You plan your strategy during the walk, and then you ride what you have when you're on course. So if you planned five strides on a bending line between 9 & 10 but jump in too good and have to do four? You do it. My being there and watching doesn't mean squat to the rider at that point. Yes, I'll watch and critique after, but as I said, most folks don't need to be told what they did right or wrong jumping a course. And since I don't aspire to the upper levels of hunterdom (I'm a dressage competitor too - I already have enough angst in my life! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif ), what can I add that the rider doesn't already know? Or that I can't see when watching a video of the ride?

FatLilPony

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:22 PM

I've seen rings held up for quite a while (long enough for our entire flat class to go back to our respective stalls), and it makes me furious sometimes. When this is my only horse showing, and I am not there with a trainer--my last class of the day (which means I can go home!), and I have to wait 45 minutes to do my flat class--yes, I'm perturbed.

These are large locals that I'm talking about, too. Most of the time, where I see rings held up however, is when RIDERS have conflicts with classes. I understand both conflicts, although I never showed with a trainer (A shows and all)-- and you know, if we're all in such a big hurry to get into the ring, showing isn't fun. It's a pain to wait for a rider's trainer to get there--yes. But I'm sure that if you were in the same situation--or something you needed (say you forgot your showpad....or your reins broke), and you had to hold the ring up, I'm sure you'd appreciate them waitinghttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:22 PM

Ketch - just for the record and I agree with the pro-trainer at the ringside posts, but I just entered a show sunday on a friends horse where I had no trainer at all, warmed myself up and jumped around without any trainer present or paid for. So it can happen but keep in mind I also hadnt PAID a trainer that I expected to BE there.

Diva98

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:24 PM

I can't believe some of the posts I have read! I have been showing for close to 20 years - first as a junior and now as an ammy - and always on the A circuit.

You would never go in the ring without your trainer - and you should never be expected to. I have schooled with other trainers when my trainer has been at another show or busy with a big class - but only with my trainers permission and it was always something that was decided well in advance.

Show management does not have the right to force you into the ring. Sometimes rings have to wait because of conflicts - it's just the nature of the beast. It's not handholding or babysitting - it's training and that is part of horse showing. Every time I come out of the ring, I learn something new and mostly from the critiques my trainer gives me after watching me. Even the biggest names have people on the ground watching! And I would certainly never want to ride with a trainer who expected me to go in the ring without them.

To the original poster - don't ever let show management bully you again. And get your trainer involved - because she has the authority to complain to the powers that be about such treatment.

PS - Even after a lot of showing, I still get the jitters before going in the ring. That's why I like my trainer - she tells me a joke to loosen me up. Does that mean I need help too?

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ESG:
My folks can pretty well tell what they did wrong and how it should have ridden when they come out - they don't need me for that. And in the jumpers? Well, there's not much I can tell them after the course walk, is there? You plan your strategy during the walk, and then you ride what you have when you're on course. So if you planned five strides on a bending line between 9 & 10 but jump in too good and have to do four? You do it. My being there and watching doesn't mean squat to the rider at that point. Yes, I'll watch and critique after, but as I said, most folks don't need to be told what they did right or wrong jumping a course. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So really none of your students need you at a horse show. I certainly hope you don't charge anyone for it then.

Ketch

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:26 PM

And, I, too have done it at a local show, CGR. But at an A show (and I've been to several) I have never, ever gone into the ring, nor seen any of my peers go into the ring, without a trainer.

So, no, seahorefarms, to answer your question, I wasn't joking. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Go-Go, back me up here. Perhaps it is just our area (although I doubt it)?

ESG

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ClemsonGraduateRider:
[Everyone's comfort level is different at a horse show but one thing is the same, we are paying our trainers for their training at horse shows. Management should not force us to give up something we have paid for. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you are paying your trainers. And that makes it the trainer's responsibility to see that his/her newbie/nervous riders are specially taken care of - not that of the show management. You pay show management an entry fee, a stabling fee, etc. - not to make sure that your trainer is where you need him/her at any given time. They have no control over that - only the trainer does. And just think if show management did try to micro-manage in that fashion - the shows would go on for weeks rather than weekends. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Ketch

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:28 PM

P.S. Diva, maybe you're in our area too! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Truly, I think the distinction lies in the local vs. large A shows. I know that gets some people in a huff, but it is just the way things are done on the A circuit, and it would be hard to form a convincing argument that there are A shows where showing without a trainer is favorable or even does ever occur.

Ketch

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:29 PM

ESG,
Just because you want your trainer there that DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE A NERVOUS/NEWBIE RIDER.

ESG

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ClemsonGraduateRider:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ESG:
My folks can pretty well tell what they did wrong and how it should have ridden when they come out - they don't need me for that. And in the jumpers? Well, there's not much I can tell them after the course walk, is there? You plan your strategy during the walk, and then you ride what you have when you're on course. So if you planned five strides on a bending line between 9 & 10 but jump in too good and have to do four? You do it. My being there and watching doesn't mean squat to the rider at that point. Yes, I'll watch and critique after, but as I said, most folks don't need to be told what they did right or wrong jumping a course. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So really none of your students need you at a horse show. I certainly hope you don't charge anyone for it then. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice try, CGR, but I think you could be a little snottier, don't you? Not up to your usual standard at all. You're slipping, dear. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

As for what my students do or do not pay me for, that's something you'll never have to worry about, so please don't lose any sleep over it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ESG

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ketch:
ESG,
Just because you want your trainer there that DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE A NERVOUS/NEWBIE RIDER. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said it did. Someone else mentioned that there are those who are different at horse shows (nerves, move-up riders, etc) that need a trainer present. My comment was that if the trainer knows that his/her students are in dire need of him/her, then it's the job of the trainer to make sure those particular students are seen to. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Does that help?

Diva98

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:35 PM

Ketch - I am in the Midwest - and believe me, it's not just your area. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ketch

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:36 PM

ESG, it implies in your profile that you used to live in Wellington. May I ask if you ever attended the horse shows there? If so, did you ever watch the amateurs or the juniors go? If you answered that in the affirmative, did you ever see someone go in the ring without the assistance and support of a trainer watching from teh ingate?

I am not sure what types of competitions you frequent. You seem to insinuate that you know all about the bigger shows; however, your philosophy and practices don't really back that up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

xegeba

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:36 PM

Nope, Ketch it is not just in your area... Standard operating procedure in CA. to warmup and ride in class with your trainer at your side.

Go-Go

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by seahorsefarms:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ketch:
Never in my life have I seen a non-professional rider go in the ring without a trainer standing by <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're kidding, right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nope. I did, once, but I was seven and Ketch must have missed it. My first show I marched right in without my trainer. I lived, but boy was I in trouble. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ketch

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:37 PM

Hey, Go-Go, that's cuz I was only like THREE! Ha-ha, you old lady, you!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Other

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:40 PM

Ok, I'm sorry, I was going to keep my mouth shut about this whole going in the ring without a trainer bit, but...

I am totally baffled and pretty surprised at the number of posters who think that entering the ring without a trainer is a normal (or acceptable) occurence. Maybe I just attend horse shows in the twilight zone, because I have never seen this happen with any halfway respectable trainer-at least not at the 3 foot level.

Being schooled/going into the ring with the assistant trainer? Sure. Getting helped out by another trainer when yours is in a bind? Ok. Even getting warmed up by a knowledgable groom who knows you, your horse, your trainer, and your program well is acceptable on rare occasion. But I can't imagine any trainer being ok with their "moving up to three foot" clients going into the ring totally alone.

Any trainer I've ridden with would absolutely murder me if I went into the ring without telling him. It simply couldn't and wouldn't happen. I just got back from a couple weeks of the Brownland Farm show in Nashville where my trainer (per usual) had 20+ horses in everything from small ponies to the GP, and while there were plenty of conflicts, the show worked incredibly hard to accomodate us in whatever way possible.

Sure, empty gates do happen. In fact, I caused one in the jumper ring when my trainer had horses in all 3 rings at once. Shit happens and you do what you can-make sure you're warmed up and ready to jump when your trainer comes, know your course, your plan, your numbers, whatever, tell the guy at the ingate that you're waiting on your trainer so he can radio over to the other rings and work it out...

I don't care who you are or how well you ride-anyone who is out there to ride to the very best of their abilities and learn as much as possible (and win!) will not walk into the ring without a set of eyes on the ground to discuss the course when you come out of that ring.

Your trainer needs to see you in the ring to know what you need to work on-sometimes clients come out and say "well, I know I was getting a few rubs on the outs of my lines, but I'm not really sure why". It's important for your trainer to watch, so he can help fix the problem before your next trip..."well, it looks like he's dropping that inside shoulder a bit through your turn, let's try..."

Ketch

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:43 PM

Very well-said, Other. Now why do you only have two posts? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You're the voice of reason. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

xegeba

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:44 PM

Other! Very well said http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif hifi... the next time a gate guy tells you what to do , tell him very nicely to PACK IT...

Show Hunter

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ESG:
You pay show management an entry fee, a stabling fee, etc. - _not _ to make sure that your trainer is where you need him/her at any given time. They have no control over that - only the trainer does. And just think if show management _did_ try to micro-manage in that fashion - the shows would go on for weeks rather than weekends. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But see, ESG, big shows do wait for trainers, and they DON'T last for weeks. Maybe this whole "go in without a trainer" thing is common at smaller or local shows, but is NOT what is done at big "A" shows, which this one likely was (given that it had a grand prix). It just isn't done, regardless of the rider's skill level. If a junior or Am. rider has a trainer, the trainer is THERE!

Go-Go

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:45 PM

Yeah, you whippersnapper! This thread is going so darned fast - I go out for a chipwich and to see the planes flying over to ready for Reagan's parade and I miss everything!

I HOPE this doesn't dissolve into yet another "you choose to ride with your trainer at the ring with you all the time so you suck" arguments - that's been hashed out already, like 97 gagillion times. Come see Ketch ride and tell me she NEEDS a trainer! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Folks, if you don't need to ride with a trainer, then don't, but dont pick on those who want to.

xegeba

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:47 PM

I would hate to see what would transpire at the in-gate if a gate guy made one of KH's students go in without her or her assitant there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

AHC

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:47 PM

I'm with Ketch, other, diva, box-of-rox, etc. on this one.

Go-Go

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:49 PM

X! Who's KH?

xegeba

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:49 PM

GOGO!!!! Who is better... You or Ketch?

xegeba

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:49 PM

Karen Healy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Go-Go

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:50 PM

Ketch. Way better. I was so bad they sent me to the jumpers. Not only that, but she's way smarter.

Ketch

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:51 PM

Aww <blushing> . . . but who is braver? Go-Go, cuz the one time they let me do the jumpers, I went in the ring, jumped the first three jumps, and came back out, I was so scared! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

ChampionMercedes

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:53 PM

While many seem shocked that people would think about going into the ring without a trainer, I am shocked that people have such an issue about going into the ring without a trainer.

I realize people want the input, who doesn't? But is it really fair to hold everyone else up so that your trainer can watch you jump 8 fences in a pattern you have probably done a hundred times at home? I did my first 'A' show 10 years ago, when I was 7. When I was 10 we went to Ocala with my pony and I was doing the Larges. My trainer couldn't be there when I went in the ring because another girl was doing the jumpers and she was a basket case. So my trainer asked someone standing by the ring to video my round, and I went alone. The gate guy wasn't even going to let me go. I had one stop, but could it have been different if my trainer was there? Nope. She can't do anything standing on the sidelines. We later went over the video and she told me how to fix it for the next time. Two summers later I did 8 'A' shows by myself. With my mom as my groom, jumpsetter and nerve relaxer. No professional input, but I survived. Personally I think if someone can do it at home just fine, they can do it at a show also, whether their trainer is there or not.

It's not the show managements fault (although it is wrong they bullied you) that they have a show to run and they can't wait around all the time. If there is a big issue then it is the job of the trainer or his/her assistant to get things figured out.

I definately like the way eventers and dressage people run their shows. They give you a time, and everybody else one too. Then it's your own job to get there and maybe your trainer will be there, or maybe he'll be riding a dressage test while you are going cross country. Tough luck. Riders really need to become more independant http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Go-Go

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:54 PM

See, Ketch, I think that's where the dumbness comes in handy - they say "Hey, Go-Go, go jump that bigass monster thing that no one with half a brain would jump" and I say "Okay. Go-Go likey jump." And off I go. Sometimes off I come, too, but you know.

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ClemsonGraduateRider:
[Everyone's comfort level is different at a horse show but one thing is the same, we are paying our trainers for their training at horse shows. Management should not force us to give up something we have paid for. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you are paying your trainers. And that makes it the trainer's responsibility to see that his/her newbie/nervous riders are specially taken care of - _not_ that of the show management. You pay show management an entry fee, a stabling fee, etc. - _not _ to make sure that your trainer is where you need him/her at any given time. They have no control over that - only the trainer does. And just think if show management _did_ try to micro-manage in that fashion - the shows would go on for weeks rather than weekends. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And your payment to that management reserves your spot in the class you paid for, just as it reserves you a stall, buys you hay etc. If they don't need the money then their option if not to wait for your trainer would be to tell you that you had to scratch. Last time I checked show management tends to like to keep their money. Plus, and gate person worth a cent knows how to keep a rotation going while moving people around in the order. A person waiting for a trainer should always be pushed back in the order, until there is no one left to enter the ring.

xegeba

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:58 PM

I'm going to step out on a limb here and say that everyone at an A,B, or C show can go into the ring and will probably walk out of the ring still mounted.(whether their trainer is there or not) This is not the point.

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ESG:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ClemsonGraduateRider:

Nice try, CGR, but I think you could be a _little_ snottier, don't you? Not up to your usual standard at all. You're slipping, dear. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

As for what my students do or do not pay me for, that's something you'll never have to worry about, so please don't lose any sleep over it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How's this for snotty. You'd be lucky to have anyone who rides as well as I do in your entourage of students. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Go-Go

Jun. 9, 2004, 01:59 PM

Speaking of which - I'm off. Wish me luck - I'm going to Reagan's deal then off to Upperville for the rest of the week to jump bigass monster things and hold up the ring when I damn well please.

X, Ketch - later, gators. Keep up the good fight.

xegeba

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:01 PM

Let the big dog eat GOGO!!!

Ketch

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:04 PM

Go-Go, okay, your caveman talk a few posts back just made me spit out my diet coke. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Good luck, girl, I know you'll do great! Just remember not to turn around after jump 3! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

ESG

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:09 PM

Well, I guess I haven't been going to the same sort of shows y'all do. Funny, after three seasons of watching hunters, jumpers etc. at Wellington, I don't remember anyone having a ring held because of trainer conflict during WEF; the only time I saw it happen was at Littlewood (but rarely) and PBCHA schooling shows, where the rider waiting to be watched couldn't even start to school until her trainer got her hindparts over to the ring. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

They (the WEF show personnel) were, however, accommodating when there was a conflict about moving a rider down in the rotation (which is as it should be, and should have been for hifi as well), but if the end of the class came and still no trainer, hard cheese all round and you either rode or scratched. So do you think, CGR, that they should have had their money refunded? They wish!

And FWIW, when my spouse showed at Indio, he said the same thing about their ring stewards, announcers and other show managment personnel keeping all the rings moving and keeping riders coming through. They also would move a rider down in the rotation to try to allow for trainer conflicts but again, if the end of the class came and no trainer, no dice. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Guess these trainers are used to multitasking, accurate scheduling, or hiring enough show help so that none of their riders feel neglected. Shame that trend doesn't trickle down to the lower rated shows, where gate holds abound along with frustrations................. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Other

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ChampionMercedes:
I am shocked that people have such an issue about going into the ring without a trainer.

Two summers later I did 8 'A' shows by myself. With my mom as my groom, jumpsetter and nerve relaxer. No professional input, but I survived. Personally I think if someone can do it at home just fine, they can do it at a show also, whether their trainer is there or not.

Riders really need to become more independant http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand your point, but let me clarify where I am coming from when I say that I wouldn't ever walk in the ring without a trainer (not that I'd be allowed to anyway, but...)

Basically, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with going and showing without a trainer. It is your money, and your show experience, and you can choose to use both in whatever way you see fit. If you just want to go in and have fun, or you are extremely talented and don't feel you stand to benefit from professional input, by all means. Have at it and march into that ring.

However, everyone has different goals. I love to show and have fun, but if I am going to spend upwards of $1500 every week to show my horses, you better believe I want to use each experience in the ring to become a more competent, competitive, knowledgable rider.

Sure, I feel confident that I could walk in the ring and get around my courses safely, but that alone doesn't cut it. I want to go in there and be as prepared as I can be to succeed, and this, IMO, means having my trainer watch me school, make sure I have a workable plan, remind me of potential problem spots, etc.

Most importantly for me, however, is that my trainer sees me go so I can come out of the ring and hear about what I did right and what I could have done differently to give me a better course... I am showing today so I can ride better tomorrow, and I want the advice/input of a pro that I trust to ensure that I will ride as effectively as possible the next time I walk in the ring.

For me, riding with my trainer at home and then showing alone feels like a waste of my time and money. Sure, he/she can teach me things to improve my riding, but if he's not there to see me, he'll never be able to evaluate my progress and determine whether or not I understand/am capable of doing the things he is trying to teach me.

Go-Go

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ESG:
Well, I guess I haven't been going to the same sort of shows y'all do. Funny, after three seasons of watching hunters, jumpers etc. at Wellington, I don't remember anyone having a ring held because of trainer conflict during WEF; <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ha! hahahahahahahahahahahaha! bwahahahhahhaaaaa.... dude, are you serious? Ever been to the deNemethy ring on a Sunday afternoon - Grand Prix time? You'll see quite a few stranded ammies waitin' on the big ring.... and not one complaint.

rileyt

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:16 PM

Oy. This is the single thing I hate most about hunter shows. Here is my take:

A show is just that. A SHOW. It's a chance to show off, not get coaching. Now, frequently people get coaching/feedback, and that's great. It's valuable, and I understand why competitors like it. But it is INCIDENTAL to the show's primary purpose... which is SHOWING, not TRAINING.

As this is my theory, I think its great if you can have your trainer there to watch your round. But you (as a competitor) shouldn't plan on it, and the show manager has every right to say "get in the ring or don't show".

Just my two cents.

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Go-Go:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ESG:
Well, I guess I haven't been going to the same sort of shows y'all do. Funny, after three seasons of watching hunters, jumpers etc. at Wellington, I don't remember anyone having a ring held because of trainer conflict during WEF; <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ha! hahahahahahahahahahahaha! bwahahahhahhaaaaa.... dude, are you serious? Ever been to the deNemethy ring on a Sunday afternoon - Grand Prix time? You'll see quite a few stranded ammies waitin' on the big ring.... and not one complaint. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THANK YOU!!

Ketch

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:23 PM

Once again, Other, will you adopt me? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bumpkin

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:25 PM

May I add, back in the day....you went when it was your turn. No waiting for anyone.
If everyone thought that they had a right to wait for their trainer because they spend X $ to be there, what about the next person and the person after that on down the line.
Ridiculous.
Too bad they cannot run times like Dressage shows, but since they don't you just have to be ready and do it, or it having someone there is so important, scratch.
JMHO of course.

Bumpkin

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:27 PM

PS
You know I love you Hifi, nothing personal, just what I believe. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ponygrl

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:27 PM

good for the manager.

I do event but when my trainer was showing a lot or had a time conflict she would make arrangements with another trainer to warm me up if I felt the need (rarely).

I am from the school of thought that once you enter the ring you can't fix anything, so have someone videotape and you can analyze it with your trainer later.

SED

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:37 PM

I want to point out to those who have suggested that hifi should have let the other waiting riders go before her that, according to her post, it sounded to me like she was the last to go. It looks like they had already done that and were tired of waiting. IF that was the case, then I think the gate people did all they can and she just had an unfortunate situation. The next class can't start going before the one before it is finished. So all they can do is wait around. No one can dispute that this is seriously unfair to the other competitors in the next class.

If, on the other hand, there were others in the same class as hifi who hadn't gone yet, then I would agree that the gate folks should have been more accomodating. But her trainer should have communicated better.

I am amazed by the number of people posting on this board who appear to think -- just because they paid a fee -- that they have a right to have their trainer there under ALL circumstances -- without ANY regard for what holding up the ring is doing to the competitors in the classes which follow. Who, by the way, also paid their fees!

TSWJB

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:43 PM

i think if you gave the mgt a heads up that there would be a potential conflict, they should accommodate you. they could let your trainer ride early or late and let you go in the ring depending on what your trainer did. i think people pay too much money to not have your trainer their to evaluate you. and yes not all people are so confident that they can go in by themselves. with practice, maybe, but why should someone be criticized because they need the confidence boost from their trainer being there. i am more confident jumping when my trainer is watching.
i think the management should be more flexible. but sometimes they are not. so choose not to attend the next show. i went to a show that took over 2 hours to get to. we arrived the same time that we had the last time and was fine. but this time we were late. they would not wait. my friend got shut out of the class. i got on, did no warmup and jumped one jump and went right in. the mgt was bellowing to get in the ring and i actually wasn't even going to jump that one jump, but my trainer made me jump it. she said no way are you going it without doing anything. they can wait 30 seconds. i did okay, but it wasn't the best showing experience. it felt a waste to braid, drive for hours and have the show be done with in about 5 minutes!

Medievalist

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ChampionMercedes:
While many seem shocked that people would think about going into the ring without a trainer, I am shocked that people have such an issue about going into the ring without a trainer.

I realize people want the input, who doesn't? But is it really fair to hold everyone else up so that your trainer can watch you jump 8 fences in a pattern you have probably done a hundred times at home? I did my first 'A' show 10 years ago, when I was 7. When I was 10 we went to Ocala with my pony and I was doing the Larges. My trainer couldn't be there when I went in the ring because another girl was doing the jumpers and she was a basket case. So my trainer asked someone standing by the ring to video my round, and I went alone. The gate guy wasn't even going to let me go. I had one stop, but could it have been different if my trainer was there? Nope. She can't do anything standing on the sidelines. We later went over the video and she told me how to fix it for the next time. Two summers later I did 8 'A' shows by myself. With my mom as my groom, jumpsetter and nerve relaxer. No professional input, but I survived. Personally I think if someone can do it at home just fine, they can do it at a show also, whether their trainer is there or not.

It's not the show managements fault (although it is wrong they bullied you) that they have a show to run and they can't wait around all the time. If there is a big issue then it is the job of the trainer or his/her assistant to get things figured out.

I definately like the way eventers and dressage people run their shows. They give you a time, and everybody else one too. Then it's your own job to get there and maybe your trainer will be there, or maybe he'll be riding a dressage test while you are going cross country. Tough luck. Riders really need to become more independant http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. I've shown up through 1m35 alone and with only a friend to set the jumps, and I was fine. My trainer sometimes would come, and sometimes not (ie if it looked like a good day for golf...no trainer http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif). No biggie. And these were at shows certainly equivalent to an AA show in the US...

I'm a bit surprised that there are so many of you that need the hand-holding, but whatever works for you I guess. I'd think that a video of the round would be sufficient to have a trainer analyze a round. It has been fine for me and the other people in my barn (many of whom are amateurs showing for the first time). We all helped each other.

mnolen9698

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:51 PM

HiFi -- I'm sorry you had to deal with poor management and ingate persons. It blows. Probably everyone out there whose done enough shows has a few horror stories to tell (I'll spare you mine). There are a lot of wonderful show personnel - management and ingate - out there who will work with you. Patron their shows and have a good time. Bad show managers should learn and get better at what they do or go out of business. In addition, I find the more I'm willing to work with the ingate (and my trainer) the more willing they are to work for me.

Timex -- I agree with you that, in some worlds we show at shows and train at home. If you *need* lessons at the show, then you shouldn't be there. That's great in theory and works for a lot of people.

It doesn't work for a lot of other people. There are 4 groups of people this doesn't apply to:
1) Genuine beginners, like pony and children riders and all those people who make up modified ch/am hunter-esque division - Shows needs those divisions and riders b/c they're profitable and allow the show to offer money classes in the higher levels.

2) Hard core junior riders - These people take equitation lessons at 6am at the shows. I've done it and I've seen every other BNT do it too.

3) BNT's and BNR's who campaign - If you (or your trainer) campaign your horse, you're only at shows so you lesson there. BNT's train and give lessons at shows b/c they live on the circuits.

4) People who fly into shows - A number of ammies who work full time and show at "A" shows have a practice horse at home they ride to keep their leg and eye. Then they meet their horse and trainer at the shows. Their level of show/riding experience doesn't negate the fact they may need a real lesson and have their trainer warm them up and be at the ingate when they ride.

You find all these groups (and others) at shows. It's not fair to make blanket statements. It takes all types and no single size fits all.

Tiramit

Jun. 9, 2004, 02:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by rileyt:
A show is just that. A SHOW. It's a chance to show off, not get coaching. Now, frequently people get coaching/feedback, and that's great. It's valuable, and I understand why competitors like it. But it is INCIDENTAL to the show's primary purpose... which is SHOWING, not TRAINING.

As this is my theory, I think its great if you can have your trainer there to watch your round. But you (as a competitor) shouldn't plan on it, and the show manager has every right to say "get in the ring or don't show".

Just my two cents. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have to say I'm with you on this one, rileyt. Presumably because they are indeed "showing off their skills" by entering the class, the rider / horse combos are schooling solidly at home over fences AT LEAST as big as their division. Once everything is going well and the combo is comfortable, off to the show we go!

As far as hifi's post (I'm not picking on you, but you did ask), like SED said, if there were riders after you, then shame on the management. If you were the last and they were holding the class for your trainer who had 3 mounts in the GP (and didn't find someone else to help her ammie), then it's a bit unreasonable to ask them to hold up the ring and the results just for you.

Having shown at quite a few "big" A's as a junior and an ammie, in both the hunter and jumper rings, with and without a trainer, I can attest to having seen rings held up by others and feeling the frustration of waiting for that trainer's golf cart to show up so the class can FINALLY be closed.

Just because it happens doesn't make it any more fair or courteous to the rest of the competitors who rode their rounds within the class's schedule. Plan for time conflicts, and worse case, go in and ride or scratch.

Trooper

Jun. 9, 2004, 03:04 PM

All right - I don't have anything new to say, but how about this ...

WHO CARES????

It sucks that Hifi got stuck between ring conflicts and a nasty gate-person, and having been where she is, I appreciate the stress that can bring to a competitor.

But honestly, do we really care whether someone has a trainer ringside or not? I may care for my own self, and my own ride, but just becuase someone else doesn't have a trainer with them doesn't mean that they are not talented and competitive, with goals and desires to match.

Hasn't the most honorable-on-high-guru-trend-setter-of-them-all, GM himself said/written that its a shame we don't produce "horsemen" that can do it themselves anymore? That many riders today are not the tough/competent/independent horsemen that we used to produce?

Don't misunderstand me - I am a prime example of what he is saying we should not be - I am totally dependent! BUT, I also appreciate that my goal should be to be able to get into the show ring on my own. It is after all not a lesson.

I certainly expect to learn something from every competition, but my trainer is there for debrief, handholding to calm my nerves if I need it (though good friends have served as well), but not training.

Let's not confuse Hifi's very normal, every day frustrating challenge of competing at many A shows with the idea that:
rider with trainer = fabulous amazing competitor; and
rider without trainer = also ran, not up to snuff, not as good as me

You can choose to ride with or without a trainer - take a look at folks riding in the GP, even the best often have a ground person helping them with strategy - its not an indication of weakness. However competing without a trainer is not an indication of weakness either.

RugBug

Jun. 9, 2004, 03:12 PM

Being warmed up by your trainer or having them at the gate is NOT the same thing as "training" or getting a "lesson." Showing is for showing...you're not going to fix anything in the warm-up ring. What you are going to do, however, is get your horse (and you) going the very best you can THAT day.

Most people I know do flatwork independently. Then the trainer comes in, does a quick check on how the flatwork went and then sets jumps and monitors how things are going. Is the horse jumping flat? Maybe sets up a low, wide oxer. Is rider dumping horse a stride out? Reminds 'em not to. This is not a lesson. It's like stretching other athletes do before their competitions. You don't see runners out there doing wind sprints right before their race, but you do see them practicing their starts. I'm guessing they already know how to start http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif and aren't trying to fix anything...they're just reminding their minds and bodies how to do what needs to be done. In the case of some riders, that reminding comes from a trainer. What's so wrong with that?

ESG

Jun. 9, 2004, 03:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Go-Go:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ESG:
Well, I guess I haven't been going to the same sort of shows y'all do. Funny, after three seasons of watching hunters, jumpers etc. at Wellington, I don't remember anyone having a ring held because of trainer conflict during WEF; <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ha! hahahahahahahahahahahaha! bwahahahhahhaaaaa.... dude, are you serious? Ever been to the deNemethy ring on a Sunday afternoon - Grand Prix time? You'll see quite a few stranded ammies waitin' on the big ring.... and not one complaint. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, because I've been watching the GPs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And if those ammies are stranded because their trainers are showing in the GPs, then don't you think the trainer would have sense enough to know that there might be a conflict and assign an assistant or someone to help that ammie? And if, as you say, there are no complaints, then what's the problem?

perf

Jun. 9, 2004, 03:24 PM

ok - I'll admit I live in a country where hardly anyone has a trainer, let alone expects that trainer to go to the same shows as them

BUT

the big thing that gets me about all of these 'trainer at the gate' topics is the money hungry trainers

If you don't have the time to supervise 8 students at a show then don't take on 8 students! Just take on as much as you can handle - then nobody will have to wait around for you, and everyone will be happy.

robnrun

Jun. 9, 2004, 03:25 PM

wow...no disrespect to anyone, but I still can't get over the idea that having a trainer at a show is a mandatory bit of equipement. I am an eventer, if I was lucky I would be able to meet up with my trainer and walk x-country with them, maybe just talk with them about it on the phone. So that 'jumping is more dangerous, so trainer is needed' doesn't wash with me! Generally it was just me there at the show, sometimes with a groom but not always.
Different worlds I guess!

shadytrake

Jun. 9, 2004, 03:29 PM

My suggestion is to assign ride times like they do in Dressage.

Boy, it is a real relief (after coming over from H/J land) to know exactly when I am going into the ring.

No flames please! I am not giving up the Jumpers, but just suggesting something that works on the "other side." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Coreene

Jun. 9, 2004, 03:36 PM

I, too, am with Timex. And Bumpkin. And Rileyt. Nothing personal, of course.

RugBug

Jun. 9, 2004, 03:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by robnrun:
wow...no disrespect to anyone, but I still can't get over the idea that having a trainer at a show is a mandatory bit of equipement.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not mandatory by any means. Go it alone if you would like. No one is making you go with a trainer.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by robnrun:
I am an eventer, if I was lucky I would be able to meet up with my trainer and walk x-country with them, maybe just talk with them about it on the phone. So that 'jumping is more dangerous, so trainer is needed' doesn't wash with me!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since I started that whole comparing dressage and hunters is comparing apples and oranges thing, let once again clarify....

Most eventers are USED to riding without a trainer. Most hunter folk are not. Eventers have a DIY attitude. Most hunter folk do not. Eventers are not allowed to have assistance at an event. Hunters can. Take away what is considered "normal" for a particular group and you can create stress...which could lead to more mistakes...some of which have bigger consequences.

Not directed at robnrun:
Why is it okay for 25 people to go into the ring with their trainer there and then make one, who's trainer is riding in a ring that has been given priority, do without? How is it the trainer's fault if a show deems one ring more important than another? Trainers have NO control over the schedule of the show....That's management's responsibility. If they are running classes that many pros will be in at the same time classes that the ammies are in, it's their lack of management...the delays are their fault...not the rider's.

Hey Bumpkin...just out of curiousity...back in the day...how many rings were running at the same time? I always get the impression that most of the shows, except for the largest/most prestigious ones, weren't the 9-ring behemouths that are seen today.

hifi

Jun. 9, 2004, 03:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SED:
I want to point out to those who have suggested that hifi should have let the other waiting riders go before her that, according to her post, it sounded to me like she was the last to go. It looks like they had already done that and were tired of waiting. IF that was the case, then I think the gate people did all they can and she just had an unfortunate situation. The next class can't start going before the one before it is finished. So all they can do is wait around. No one can dispute that this is seriously unfair to the other competitors in the next class.

If, on the other hand, there were others in the same class as hifi who hadn't gone yet, then I would agree that the gate folks should have been more accomodating. But her trainer should have communicated better.

I am amazed by the number of people posting on this board who appear to think -- just because they paid a fee -- that they have a right to have their trainer there under ALL circumstances -- without ANY regard for what holding up the ring is doing to the competitors in the classes which follow. Who, by the way, also paid their fees! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I was not last but near the bottom of the order. I really don't know when the class ended. We did as we were told.

tegotong

Jun. 9, 2004, 04:16 PM

To give you guys a slightly different perspective on showing with/without trainers. Where I live there is no coach (ok, no coach worth training with). So I pick one up at shows. The only coaching I get is when I am warming up to go in the ring and the only other feedback is from having said coach watch my round and discuss it with me afterwards.
I also can't figure out how you would warm up without some form of assistant. I go to shows on my own - I need a coach to set fences in those oh-so-crazy at times warm up rings. And even if I had a video camera, I wouldn't have anyone there to work it for me. So yeah, I'd be pretty picked if I were told that I had to go without the coach present.
But like most others have pointed out, with 6 performance rings and 4 warm-up rings all operating at once, generally gate people are pretty flexible about moving you around in the order. In fact, at most shows I go to, you wander over to your ring adn sign up yourself as to when you want to go (in every ring other than the grand prix ring and even in it they are pretty flexible, except for the open classes). And if it looks like you aren't going to make it then, they simply move you down. And yes, there are horrific gate holds at times, especially in hunterland, although most often they are for the pro riders, and not so much for ammies and juniors.

SED

Jun. 9, 2004, 04:43 PM

Rugbug - I agree with you and understand that the warm-up with the trainer is not a lesson, but a tune up specific to the upcoming round. As such, it IS valuable. And the trainer watching is not just to critique what you are going to do in order to correct stuff when you get home -- but to help you with what you need to do for the next round.

So I definately see value in having your trainer there, and would hope management would work WITHIN the class to move people around to deal with conflicts. Showing without your trainer is not the preferred way to go under any circumstances, and I would hate to have my daughter's trainer unable to prep her.

But my big complaint is when the trainer conflicts cause the ring to be empty -- with no one showing -- for quite a long time, so that the class can't finish and be closed out. At that point, I believe that the scales tip in the other direction and the exhibitor needs to be willing to go without his/her trainer for the benefit of all competitors and the show itself. For example, the AAs, Juniors and Childrens at most A shows run 1 1/2-2 hours just for that class. I refuse to believe that, with a well run barn and schedule, any trainer (including BNTs) should be able to schedule things where they and/or their assistant trainers can at the very least participate in the warm up, etc.

Most of the time the trainer is late because he/she was showing his/her own sale horses. So why should the rest of us have to wait because that trainer was trying to pack too much in and wasn't making use of an assistant, etc.? If it was just a minute or so once in awhile, I wouldn't get so hacked off. But I am convinced it adds hours to each show day, and hurts the performance of many horse/rider combinations which are getting ready to start at the estimated time they were told, and that estimate keeps changing because of trainer no-shows. Its just a function of "do unto others"...

Maybe if the shows enforced their rules a little more on a consistent basis so people know what to expect, riders would add an additional criteria in evaluating which trainer to use -- how well that trainer manages conflicts and uses qualified assistants when they have too many horses/riders!

nature

Jun. 9, 2004, 05:04 PM

What really gets me mad is when a rider is holding up the ring for her trainer AND has not even bothered to learn her course yet!! I have seen it over and over. Now of course the trainer will fine tune the strides and things but the rider can learn the order of the fences while she is waiting and holding up the ring!! NO EXCUSE FOR THAT!!!!!!

Madeline

Jun. 9, 2004, 05:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lucassb:
Just a couple of observations.

If there are many competitors waiting for someone to have their trainer present for their round (something I do not think is unreasonable) _there is nothing stopping them from going ahead and getting in the ring themselves._

The person waiting for their trainer simply moves down in the order, allowing others to go, and there is no need for the ring to remain empty. Geez, is this not common sense? And common courtesy? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure. Just try it. We don't show much, but we do go to AA's. They'll bump the "independents" all day long, but will hold the ring for a trainer for what seems like hours. I can see being bumped a place or two (but not 10!!!), but I cannot understand being held while a trainer warms up a student who isn't even ready to go.

I still think getting there to watch yourstudents go is the responsibility of the trainer. They're the professionals, shouldn't they act like it?

AHC

Jun. 9, 2004, 05:59 PM

As far as I'm concerned, everyone should do what they are comfortable with regarding showing with trainers, without trainers, waiting for their trainers, etc.

Personally, I want my trainer there because he knows my horse and my riding -- and my nerves --better than anyone else so before I walk in the ring he can say the right few words that will help me. Sometimes it's something that makes me laugh, sometimes it's reminding me to focus on getting a nice forward pace, to remember to breathe, etc. And I definitely want him to watch and critique so I can know what to work on at home when I'm on my own that might improve my performance in the future.

Only one other poster mentioned other sports. Football, baseball, basketball, soccer -- they all have coaches, often multiple coaches -- who are at the games giving advice and instruction every step of the way. Even in sports like tennis or gymanstics, when the coach doesn't talk during a game or a routine, the coach is there watching and providing a critique when it's over. This is true for student athletes, professionals, etc. If it's acceptable there, why does it seem to be such a taboo to want the same thing at a horse show? Even Michael Jordan had a coach watching every game....

War Admiral

Jun. 9, 2004, 06:05 PM

I'll step in and respond to the "Question for Bumpkin" since I, too, showed the big eq's without a trainer Back In The Day (and qualified, too!). At the biggest shows in those days, you probably had 3 rings and 2 outside courses (anyone remember those?) going. BUT, BUT, BUT, "A" shows were multidisciplinary so only 1 of those 3 rings was an H/J ring. So the H/J tally was 1 ring and 2 outside courses (one for ponies, one for horses, usually). Eq (there was no need for the "BIG" eq designation, since 3'6" was all there was) and the jumpers had the use of the ring, usually, along with all the hack classes.

There were no delays. The 1-minute rule was strictly invoked. If your trainer was elsewhere, you sucked it up and rode.

And boy do I miss it being like that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Having said which, I don't mean to convey the impression that it was UNHEARD OF to wait for your trainer: it was not. But you asked show management very nicely indeed if you might drop down a few slots. It was the exception rather than the rule it is now. And if you asked too often, eventually they would start saying "no".

dogchushu

Jun. 9, 2004, 06:10 PM

I'm another one who can see both sides.

On the one hand, nothing is more irritating than having a show run all day with a frequently empty ring because people are waiting for trainers.

On the other, it is the norm to have a trainer present. If you expect to have your trainer there and count on it, it can be stressful to suddenly find out that's not the case.

Most of the shows I've been to try to keep the rings going and most trainers try to avoid holding up the show. Not to say it doesn't happen, but when it does it's been something everyone has tried to prevent.

Would I go in the ring without my trainer? Only if I had to. And if I had to, I would. The reason I want a trainer is that I want the post ride feedback. I don't get a card from the judge showing how every movement went and what she saw. My ride may feel good to me, but my trainer can say why it may or may not have looked good to the judge.

I do see riders without trainers at shows. But then I only do the smaller rated and local shows.

findeight

Jun. 9, 2004, 06:14 PM

I didn't read all of these but...

Shame on your trainer.

They could have made arrangements to shift jump orders in whatever ring to accomodate multiple rides.

They could hire an assistant.

They could arrange for another trainer to coach you...my trainer has an assistant and still uses fellow pros to coach her students if there are multiple conflicts (i.e Laura Kraut or Jeff Wirthman)..and she coaches their students when they are jammed up.

I'd bet everybody is saying..why can't you jump without a trainer and this is what is wrong with the H/J world..I am not.
I say you are PAYING for your trainer to coach you...so where is S/He???

Don't blame show management for NOT holding 40 or 50 other riders up so you can get your coach...blame your coach for NOT BEING THERE FOR YOU. More then 15 minutes is inexcusable and they need to be on the radio to your ring for that. Stuff happens, but again, they need to be communicating with the gate people and YOU and 15 minutes is IT as far as I am concerned.

I suggest you get a trainer that will be there for you or provide an assistant or other qualified Pro if there are conflicts....
THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE PAYING FOR..not being left in the lurch because there are 3 going in the GP...How does that make you feel? Like, third rate?

JusJumpIt

Jun. 9, 2004, 06:42 PM

This is a topic that seems to have strong feelings either way. There are many things to consider to see the "big picture", and the "right answer" could be different in different situations. Most Jumper Rings have posted orders, that are put up in advance of the class. You can check on the order and if it looks like a problem you can work it out with the starters at the gates. Most shows try to run the Prix when it will not be conflicting with many other jumper classes, the managers try to solve any order of go problems before the order is posted. They look at how many horses a rider is on, they look at other riders in the Prix that trainer may also be schooling. They may not know what that trainer might have going in other rings while the Prix is going on. Management would much rather work out conflicts early if they can, but if 20 or so other riders wanted to hold that ring for their trainer, it could quickly get out of control. Again, check the posted orders and talk to the starters. The gate starters will also try to work with conflicts as well, they may ask a rider to move up or down, so the trainer can get down to the other ring. Judges do not like to sit and watch an empty ring, judges really do not like to watch an empty ring, is they have an 8PM flight to catch. Management get complaints from other riders if they have to stand around at an empty gate, and the rings they needed to get to may now be waiting for someone that is waiting for you! Management also gets BIG-BIG fines for shows that run over a certain length of time. And I hate to beat a dead horse, but it is a horse show not a lesson. If you feel that there is no way for you to work out a conflict in advance with the gate crew or management, perhaps you could do a different class, maybe the Low Schooling early in the day, or a different Level 1, late in the day. Most riders pay their trainer for the day not the class, so if you could not find a way to check the schedule and fix it, maybe your trainer could give you a lesson at the end of the day, instead of THAT one class. When trainers get very, very busy, most big barns has a special "someone" that keeps up with the students and looks in advance for potential problems. Many bigger barns also have an assistaint trainer to help with the lower level,s and classes like the Under Saddles. Every big show will have trainers with conflicts, most try hard to work out issues. Maybe you could take on the "job" of helping your trainer keep track of what horses and riders need to be where when, most offices have a "Trainer Entry List" that shows all their riders and what they are in. You could sit down at the start of each day, and check on trouble times, maybe you could even work off your "coaching" bill that way.

LimoWrek

Jun. 9, 2004, 06:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SGray:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by breezymeadow:
2. HOWEVER - if your trainer has you showing at classes at &/or above what you're doing in your lessons & is CHARGING you for "training" at the show, than said trainer should be there - for schooling & friggin' ringside. Period. Also, if said trainer has not spelled out ahead of time that you "might be on your own" during your time in the ring, then again - you are due for a refund. It's a business just like any other business. You're not paying a training/schooling fee for nothing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that I can agree with - a refund from the TRAINER - NOT from the show <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is so stupid. The trainer was off riding a clients horse. That is the same as coaching someone who is on a horse. They ride and teach. There job is two things. They are of equal importance. The show should have held up the smaller ring. The bigger ring almost always takes priority. An ingate person should have been fired if they didn't hold the gate up for you because of a legit trainer conflict.

Show management is there for the exhibitors. Not the other way around.

The management can hold a ring up for 15 minutes. Of course, I am talking about a legit conflict. A legit conflict is where one ring would be held up, or one rider just woudn't get to show.

On the other hand, it is up to the trainer to make sure all of the ingate people are notified to hold up a ring for the 10 minutes it takes to warmup and do one round in another ring.

findeight

Jun. 9, 2004, 06:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JusJumpIt:
..Maybe you could take on the "job" of helping your trainer keep track of what horses and riders need to be where when, most offices have a "Trainer Entry List" that shows all their riders and what they are in. You could sit down at the start of each day, and check on trouble times, maybe you could even work off your "coaching" bill that way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
Oh I am roflmao on this one.

Yeah, right. I pay a grand a month at home plus a grand a week at a show and I have to take on the job of schedualing the trainers time???? I HAVE A JOB, that's how I pay for this. I'm not friggen gonna do their job too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Not in this life.
Unless they want to knock the board down and kick in some free lessons http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Generally, you pay the trainer as a professional to perform a service FOR YOU.

Anything else, you need to find another.
only schedual I'd work out was when the other trainer could come pick up the horse.

xegeba

Jun. 9, 2004, 07:23 PM

Everytime I read a findeight post... I think of SGT. Hartman in Full Metal Jacket http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

findeight

Jun. 9, 2004, 07:34 PM

Well, yo.

And thanks.

horse_poor

Jun. 9, 2004, 07:35 PM

good gawd almighty is that x i see posting ?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

as to the topic at hand, i shall keep my mouth shut http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

paw

Jun. 9, 2004, 07:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LimoWrek:
An ingate person should have been fired if they didn't hold the gate up for you because of a legit trainer conflict.

Show management is there for the exhibitors. Not the other way around. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me? Yes, the show management is there for the exhibitors, most of whom are on time. We still don't have all of the details here (was there an explicit policy to go in the order posted? how late in the day was it, and how many more horses were in the class?), nor do we know what the ingate person was told. How can you suggest that they weren't doing their job as assigned? Sometimes the only way you can get the show to finish at a reasonable time is to expedite things.

It sounds like hifi's trainer was definitely trying to do too much. I think that's where I'd put most of the blame for this situation.

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA

Jun. 9, 2004, 07:40 PM

For what it's worth, I think findeight is right on. Lord have mercy if the person I trained with wasn't at the ring. Most of the time, in yea good ole days, they weren't at the show either. We did it. We were brought up to learn to ride. Help one another, and always trainers were there we could use to school us. "No" holding up a ring. "No" can't go without someone standing there. And diffinitely "NO" can't do a flat class without the trainer on the rail. The hand holding makes me nutz. Reason being our trainer was also a judge. And we literally would get checked up on after the show. It made us step up to the plate.

horse_poor

Jun. 9, 2004, 07:57 PM

ok i cant keep my mouth shut

quote:
--------------------------------
Originally posted by LimoWrek:
An ingate person should have been fired if they didn't hold the gate up for you because of a legit trainer conflict.

Show management is there for the exhibitors. Not the other way around
--------------------------------------------
from the OP it sounds as if it was the SHOW MANAGER, not the gate person--management made the call, plain and simple-show management also found another trainer for the OP to work with--not ideal, but not as bad as going in without any coaching/nerve settling if that was what was needed.

it is up to show management how they want to run things--to those they pissed of because they wouldnt hold the gate, well, they will probably not return to that show---to the riders who had a class go smoothlywithout a gazillion held gates, they will probably return.

it is more common in the bigger shows to hold the gate-----however one local organization around here that holds a gazillion shows states right on t he show bills "GATES WILL ONLY BE HELD FOR ONE MINUTE-RIDERS NAME WILL BE CALLED 3 TIMES-IF RIDER FAILS TO APPEAR AFTER ONE MINUTE, THE LIST OF RIDE ORDER WILL CONTINUE AND THE MISSED RIDER WILL NOT RIDE" oddly enough at this show, everyone has their ducks in a row and no one misses their turn. but of course it is not a huge huge huge show

confliucts happen but the way i look at it, it has a domino effect-----rider A holds the gate to wait for trainer after being bumped to the end of the ride list, rider B makes sure trainer is there for next class and is waiting for rider A to finish the class so s/he can ride, then in turn rider B's trainer is late to get to another ring for another rider because A held the gate so now rider C has to hold the gate since trainer is with rider B, etc etc etc.

now, rider B and C paid as much money to show as rider A, as did all the other people...what they paid their trainer to be there is between them and their trainer and not the responsibility of show management to worry about. As is the scheduling between rider and trainer-yes some show management will accomodate as much as possible, but there is the distinct possiblity that only so much rider order can be switched--so the choice ultimately comes down to showing or scratching-that is not show managements problem

we run shows at this barn and try to accomodate rider order as much as possible, but there comes time when we have to say-sorry--we have changed as much as possible and can not change anything else.

xegeba

Jun. 9, 2004, 08:29 PM

Has anyone considered that hifi's trainer had a stupid emergency come up? Like Client A got bucked off and the beast was out playing on the freeway? For a gate guy to tell hifi to go or scratch is bad business. He probably was pissed that he was missing the Laker game. She said she was not the last in order.What if her trainer told her to wait and not go in the ring until she got there?

horse_poor

Jun. 9, 2004, 08:44 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif once again x and i disagree------ http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif theres a shock! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

awwwwwwwwwww x i have missed you!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif i posted my shock in seeing a post from you on the previous page

Rocky XVI

Jun. 9, 2004, 08:47 PM

They may call it a horse "show", but in reality it is a competition.

Now if you WANT to compete without the benefit of a trainer to warm you up, give you advice before you enter the ring, and critique your ride afterwards so that you don't make the same mistakes next time, that's YOUR call.

However, it is not show management's call to MAKE someone compete without the benefit of their trainer's presence unless they put the same restrictions on all the other competitors in the class.

hifi

Jun. 9, 2004, 08:59 PM

[/QUOTE]Excuse me? Yes, the show management is there for the exhibitors, most of whom are _on time_. We still don't have all of the details here (was there an explicit policy to go in the order posted? how late in the day was it, and how many more horses were in the class?), nor do we know what the ingate person was told. How can you suggest that they weren't doing their job as assigned? Sometimes the only way you can get the show to finish at a reasonable time is to expedite things.

It sounds like hifi's trainer was definitely trying to do too much. I think that's where I'd put most of the blame for this situation.[/QUOTE]It was about 1230 in the afternoon. My trainer needed towalk the GP course at 1235, run down to my ring at 1240-1250, then get back to be on the 2nd horse, GP starts sharp at 1pm first horse in the ring. If not, she would have had to ride all 3 horses then come watch me. She really tried and she usually gets the job done. She is a great trainer and I am in NO WAY BLAMING HER. The ring I rode in, the second jumper ring, got done every day by 2 or 3 at the worst. I guess it just didn't work out. She wanted me to go, so I did. I bet a sports psycologist would be a good idea. I felt like I needed her and she really does not like me to jump without her and I respect that. She is a good and decent trainer and I luv her.

lonewolf

Jun. 9, 2004, 09:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Shame on your trainer.

They could have made arrangements to shift jump orders in whatever ring to accomodate multiple rides.

They could hire an assistant.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All hail Findeight, and everything she said in her first post.

At our barn, we have a sign up board, stating when everyone will go. Some of the rings have assigned times of go. We make sure to sign everybody up early in the morning so that they will all go at times which will not conflict. Usually the 3' divisions go for a long time, and your trainer should have made a plan for you. She should have foreseen this, and at the very least spoken to the gate guys for you.

If there truly was NO workable solution (e.g. the GP and 3' divisions were both small and lasted the exact same amount of time), then I think show management should have accomodated you. But I find that hard to believe.

Madame Butterfly

Jun. 9, 2004, 09:50 PM

All of these responses are so interesting. When I was an ammy and had a trainer, he/she never wanted me to walk into a show ring without him/her....and was angry if I did....I think the best thing trainers can do is teach their students to work without them ... a trainer has to be very self-assured to do that. That is not to say that a person, even a pro, does not need a trainer. What I mean to say is that any student, ammy or pro needs to learn to be confident without the teacher standing there next to him/her holding his/her hand. That is a true lesson.

HSM

Jun. 10, 2004, 06:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by hifi:
I was not last but near the bottom of the order. I really don't know when the class ended. We did as we were told. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The gate person should have (1) pushed you down in the order, and (2) announced over the loudspeaker for your trainer to come to the ring, so he/she would be aware that you were waiting. To simply force you to go right away (when there were other riders ready and waiting) served no purpose. If all other riders had gone and your trainer was still nowhere to be found, then you should have been given a choice, either go in alone, go with another trainer, or scratch. But as you describe it, it was handled very differntly from any A show I've been to. A good gate person will keep the order moving and keep all competitors and trainers aware of what is going on.

caffeinated

Jun. 10, 2004, 07:27 AM

Huh.

I must have learned about showing out in a twilight zone, I'd have been ripped a new one if I ever held up a class to wait for my trainer. It was impressed upon us that we were there to compete. You got to where you were supposed to be when you were supposed to be there and did your job.

I know I didn't go to these huge 8-ring crazy shows, and having the trainer watch was always really nice and helpful, but I'd have been torn off the horse and sent home if I held up other people so my trainer could be there...

*shrug*

As to the OP... I would think this is a trainer issue, not a show management issue. If you paid the trainer to be there to watch you, and she couldn't get there, you're entitled to some of that money back.

Maybe the gate people are rude, but they're trying to keep the thing going so that the classes run on time and all the other competitors are happy too.

Next time, bring a video camera and a friend, and if this happens, you can discuss the video with the trainer when she can't be there to give you immediate answers.

horse_poor

Jun. 10, 2004, 07:39 AM

did i miss something -i did scan thru these posts fairly quickly but it seems to me the OP said show management made the decision not the gate person

so why is everyone crucifying the gate person when it was actually show management?

PiedPiper

Jun. 10, 2004, 07:44 AM

Having to put my two cents in. I was just at Upperville with a jumper rider who was doing the division two classes and I can tell you they were not holding up the ring for her. In both rings they told her to go in and she had to go.

I think the other way of looking at it is if they hold the ring up for you everyone is thrown off schedule and what happens to the rider 10 down from you who has planned when to go with their trainer and then everything is off plan? My way of thinking you give everyone a time and stick to it but again I am an eventer and would take it as a MAJOR insult no matter how nervous I may be that my trainer would say she always has to be there when I jump. I mean, what the fuh!?! Am I not an adult capable of doing things and thinking on my own? Anyway just the way I would feel.

I had gotten quite and earful with the rider I was with on how things are done with her trainer and personally I thought it sounded like an abusive relationship! The mental stress, the split personalities, the condescending manner, the total dependency to said trainer, and the badmouthing of previous students by trainer and students when previous student leaves the barn. Sheesh! Riding is suppose to be fun!

ESG-Can I train with you! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Definitely sound like my type of trainer! Please I want to get to the point I DON'T need a trainer so I can start saving some of my money.

tidy rabbit

Jun. 10, 2004, 07:49 AM

HiFi-

A sport psychologist would really help with the anxiety. I loved the one I used.

I'm familiar with the trainer you ride with and know that she has a good program. I'm sure you're getting quality help and I doubt she'd over face you at a show.

Your trainer rides GP classes and I'm sure has many mounts throughout the day, you will probably run into this situation again at other shows. Take it as a learning experience. Try to make sure you have someone to walk the course with, as a backup, on days where your trainer may not be available. Ask her to hook you up with another trainer ahead of time that you can become familiar with incase you need help. Working with as many different trainers as you can is a blessing and a real learning experience, you should welcome the opportunity.

In reality, the horses showing with the $900.00 (or more) entry fee for ONE class would be the priority to any trainer.

Take the time to make sure YOUR show is going to be the best it can be and welcome the chance to meet other professionals and hear different ideas.

Since this happened once, you'll be more prepared next time. Take a little ownership over your show and open yourself up to using other trainers, it could really help to make you a better rider.

Too bad it was such a jolting experience for you but look at it this way, it's given you something to think about and if you learn just ONE thing at a show, it was worth it.

Sparky Boy

Jun. 10, 2004, 08:02 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PiedPiper:

I think the other way of looking at it is if they hold the ring up for you everyone is thrown off schedule and what happens to the rider 10 down from you who has planned when to go with their trainer and then everything is off plan? QUOTE]

Very good point Pied Piper made.

It drives me nuts when the person working at the gate switches everyone around because so-and-so isn't ready yet.

In your case, I'd have issue with the trainer, not the gate person.

Tiramit

Jun. 10, 2004, 08:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by hifi:
It was about 1230 in the afternoon. My trainer needed towalk the GP course at 1235, run down to my ring at 1240-1250, then get back to be on the 2nd horse, GP starts sharp at 1pm first horse in the ring. If not, she would have had to ride all 3 horses then come watch me. She really tried and she usually gets the job done. ... The ring I rode in, the second jumper ring, got done every day by 2 or 3 at the worst. I guess it just didn't work out. She wanted me to go, so I did. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not picking on you, just pointing out what you said above is why so many people hate it when rings are held for long periods of time. Perhaps the reason your ring "ran late" that day was because there were a number of other riders whose trainers held the gate....?

The other thing to consider in the delay is the horse's mental state. I once scheduled with a trainer to meet me at x time to help me warm-up a very green horse at a large A show. I was there with a warmed-up horse at the scheduled time but the trainer was helping someone else in another ring. The gate guy kindly kept shuffling me down in the order while I waited.

And waited.

And waited.

1 hour of standing next to the horse near the warm-up ring later (the barn was over half a mile away), my trainer showed up. But by that point the green horse had had enough and wanted to go back to the barn. He threw a fit in the ring and things went downhill from there.

After 20 minutes I thought about having my friend set fences for me and then I'd go in on my own, but I didn't want to anger my trainer.

Who paid for that delay, the trainer or me? While I appreciated the trainer's help, I probably would have been a better experience for the horse had I gone in my own rather than waiting. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BLBGP

Jun. 10, 2004, 08:29 AM

What Tidy Rabbit just said was the point I was trying to make back on page 2 (which I fear got lost in the ruckus).

Your trainer is great and I know you adore her. However, with her schedule this is likely to happen again at the stricter shows. From what you posted, it sounds like the only reason you had rails is because you were mentally out of the game. That is an incredibly important lesson to learn....how to stay focused no matter who or what is outside the ring.

Instead of freaking out about her not being there, it's good to embrace the free clinic you received from the other trainer who offered to help you out.

Since hifi said the Show Manager made the decision (not just the back gate person) it sounds like they were determined to keep this show running on track. Especially on a Sunday, when people not in the GP want to pack up and get out of there.

ccoronios

Jun. 10, 2004, 08:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>That is SUCH bull**** (on the manager's part). Sorry, but if there is an unavoidable conflict, then the manager is totally out of line. Never have I seen a professional, experienced manager do anything like this, nor would I tolerate it if it happened to me. The biggest shows in the country always have conflicts like this <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wellllll, I hate to disagree. Perhaps not in hunter shows (although my guess is that if a few more managers had the juice to enforce the 2 minute rule, fewer shows would run 'til the wee hours), but in dressage shows, your time is your time and if you're not there, too bad. If hunter shows required pre-entry, something like this could be instituted (Class 1 starts at 8 a.m.; allowing 2 min/round, at 30 horses per class, therefore 60 rounds = 2 hours, Class 2 will start at 10 a.m. and so on).

As for "no experienced manager would do this" - a nationally respected manager of Morgan Grand Nationals (which ran at least 3 rings) made it very clear - in the prize list - that there were NO GATE HOLDS. You could literally be on a horse being pinned in one ring and when your class was called in another, you either left where you were or didn't ride (nor did you get reimbursed for entry fees) in the other. The show ran on time, smoothly and sure, there were some unhappy folks occasionally - but not too often. If you know what the rules are and know that they'll be upheld, you do what you gotta do. Problems arise when the rules are there, but 'never' upheld; then when someone does enforce them, everyone gets their knickers in a knot. And the show goes on and on and on and on and on ad nauseum.

Smart Alec

Jun. 10, 2004, 08:59 AM

I didn't read through every post so forgive me if I am repeating anything!http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I guess I think having coaching is important and essential to equestrian sports as it is in most every sport. Take a look at football, hockey, boxing, gymnastics, basketball, tennis, track, baseball, soccer, figure skating, wrestling, ect. All of the athletes in these sports compete with their coach present and watching them. The coach is there to give feedback and guide the athletes. From the highest levels to the peewee leagues...the coaches are there and coaching to their athletes even (gasp!) from the sidelines (shock!).

I hate to be oversimplified and too general but for sake of keeping this simple: Why is this viewed as such a problem in equestrian sports? Hunter and jumper riders seem to view coaching as other sports do and accept having a coach as the norm, but why do *Generally* eventers look at having coaching as a weakness? Personally, I think lower levels of eventing could benefit from more coaching. I think they are trying very hard to voice how important coaching is because of not only a positive benefit and safety but also to increase the quality of the sport.

I see a lot of people who say, 'I'm lucky if a trainer ever walks my course with me' and 'I'm lucky if a trainer is even at the show'...if you are riding independantly of a trainer at a show...good for you that you are so competent on your own. But don't think that because someone pays a coach/trainer/groundperson whatever to be there for support and guidance they are weak and non-riders. If that were the case, the Olympic team wouldn't need a coach now would they? You think those people don't discuss their courses with the team coach? I often see a large group of eventers go together to walk cross-country and that is at the highest level. I wouldn't say they need hand holding! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Now as far as holding up a ring. I think it is show managments job to make the show run smoothly. I think this rider was put on the spot a bit and I think she could've turned it into a more positive experience for herself and go in knowing she could do it, but it would've been better had the gate people arranged other riders around her...usually it isn't a problem. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ball park

Jun. 10, 2004, 09:05 AM

IMO your issue is more with your trainer, who chose to compete rather than be there for you, than it is with the show mangement, who has a responsibility to all competitors to keep the show moving.

caffeinated

Jun. 10, 2004, 09:05 AM

It's not that "having coaches is viewed as a weakness"- it's that part of learning to ride is learning to be a horseman... making independent decisions and learning to analyze what you've done. I don't think anybody says "you shouldn't have a coach at all" but rather that if the coach is a good one, and worth the money you pay them, part of the training should ideally be to make you more aware of things and capable of dealing with them... so that you are capable of performing without someone telling you what to do.

This may not be in a trainer's best interest, as they want to keep people as their clients... but the thought, as it occurs to me, is that if the trainer is doing their job well at home, and schooling at the show, the rider should be capable of entering the ring without them should that circumstance arise.

tidy rabbit

Jun. 10, 2004, 09:11 AM

Yes caffeinated, they should be but you see there are so many needy needy folks out there.

Take as an example someone who has been riding the hunters for neigh on 20 years at 3' to 3'6 and has seen nearly every possible configuration of a hunter course and still wont go in the ring without a coach at ring side.

It's just a different paradigym. Some riders are independent and physically as well as mentally able to grasp things quickly and are less maintance to the trainer while others are needy needy needy for more then the mere reason of coaching for coaching's sake.

There's way more to it when you put the human element into the equation.

shamrocks

Jun. 10, 2004, 09:16 AM

Get over it and show on your own. If you're not ready and you must have your trainer there then go to a schooling show to have your trainer by your side with no other conflicts.

Holding up everyone else is inconsiderate and rude. I pay my money and I want to show and the class to run in a timely manner so we can get the results and go on about our lives!

Have a friend or parent video tape for review with the trainer later.

This is a problem not only in the show world but in society in general. People are so into themselves and really have lack a consideration for others.

caffeinated

Jun. 10, 2004, 09:20 AM

Yes TR, but if those people really need that as part of their show routine, things need to be worked out as much as possible before getting to the show to ensure that waiting for the trainer isn't going to interfere negatively with the other competitors or the show itself... and said riders shouldn't be miffed at show management when SM tries to keep the class running without delays...

mademoiselle

Jun. 10, 2004, 09:35 AM

I personnally prefer to have ride times, like in dressage or eventing. I feel less streesed to know exactly when I need to be ready and it is easier to organize my day that way.
In the Jumpers in France, you have to run in order, and if you're not there in time (except if you have a major problem - fall or lost ashoe in the warm-up), you are finned and you loose your entry. There is no gate holding.
Most people are amateurs and they are able to go in the arena even when their trainer in not around. So, if French people can do, trust me, American can http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I think it's more an American mentality where the trainer's role is very, very important.

I kind of get the idea of having "somebody" on the ground to tell you what you did wrong between 2 trips in hunter/Eq, but for the jumpers I don't understand. I mean if you knock a rail, that's it. In the hunters, it's not as simple and clear ... And with the politic, the trainer is a "must have".
If I were you, I would have a friend/groom to videotape my course, and talk about it with the trainer later. That way she can explain to you why you got refusals or knock a rail ...
As many said, showing is not easy and being by yourself in the showring can be intimidating but it is part of the deal.
Instead of focusing on the fact that your trainer is missing, try to remember what you did with her last time, and just try your best.

I wait to wait at the gate for a ring conflict, it's just driving me nuts ...

PiedPiper

Jun. 10, 2004, 09:36 AM

Tidy Rabbit-
But how many people are TRULY like that and how many have been conditioned/trained to be like that? I think with this mentality too many hunter riders do themselves a grave disservice. From the hunter riders I have seen and talked to, I find that they are MUCH better riders than they think but they are in this mindset that they can't breath without their trainer there telling them it is okay b/c the trainer has TOLD them they have to okay it first!

The girl I was with at Upperville yesterday is a prime example. An EXCELLENT rider, great leg, great position, but totally and completely freaked. She is more independent since she was there sans her trainer but told me of the crap she was getting for it and how "her trainer is happy when people fail without her(trainer)"! That is insane! To me how you jump at home is really no different than how you jump at a show. If you have a problem of jumping ahead then by gum I can almost gaurantee that it is going to happen at a show. But shouldn't the student know when it happened? The student should be able to go over the ride and tell what happened at every jump, every turn, every spot. This is the only way you stop riding like a passenger and start taking some control over you riding!

I think this dependency is a disservice to the trainer as well. The trainer should keep their students b/c of the improvements they help create in their students not for the dependency. The trainer is using control and manipulation as a way to keep their students instead of what should be doing it, their teaching. I personally feel that a good teacher teaches a student to think for themselves and to be able to analyze and solve problems. I also think that trainers should be teaching students that fear is only relative and there are tools to help with minimizing it. It is hard to leave the nest but it is very important in growing up! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sorry this has gotten off topic some but just some revelations this week that I have been pondering over.

But the bottomline HiFi is you can either use this incident as a stumbling block or a stepping stone. You went out even though yuo were scared and alone and even though it didn't go perfectly you still did it and completed it! That is a great accomplishment and something you should be proud of. You were able to keep it together even when things werent' going perfectly at a height you hadn't competed at before and when you had to step up to the plate you did! That is the best part. You could have very easily stepped aside and let your fear win and you didn't so I think you have alot to be proud of and sounds like you did a pretty fabulous job! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

hifi

Jun. 10, 2004, 09:59 AM

It was about 1230 in the afternoon. My trainer needed towalk the GP course at 1235, run down to my ring at 1240-1250, then get back to be on the 2nd horse, GP starts sharp at 1pm first horse in the ring. If not, she would have had to ride all 3 horses then come watch me. She really tried and she usually gets the job done. She is a great trainer and I am in NO WAY BLAMING HER. The ring I rode in, the second jumper ring, got done every day by 2 or 3 at the worst. I guess it just didn't work out. She wanted me to go, so I did. I bet a sports psycologist would be a good idea. I felt like I needed her and she really does not like me to jump without her and I respect that. She is a good and decent trainer and I luv her. This is what happened.

hifi

Jun. 10, 2004, 10:06 AM

Thank you PiedPiper!

Flash44

Jun. 10, 2004, 10:07 AM

Think of it this way - if your trainer is not watching, you can do whatever you want!

tidy rabbit

Jun. 10, 2004, 10:10 AM

PiedPiper, Now this topic is getting interesting!

I totally agree with you. I think that not only do the trainers perpetuate it (not all but some) but the very nature of some customer's personalities perpetuate it as well.

Customer #1 has a needy personality and simply can't or wont compete without the complete and undivided attention of the trainer. It's a matter of needing reassurance or the emotional support or the social aspect rather then letting the ride tell him/her how well he/she did in the ring. If you've been doing the 3' or 3'6 hunters for umpteen years, what's really left to say? I mean anyone with a brain would know what mistakes they'd made in the ring after doing this for a million years.

Customer #2 a young kid or novice adult, really does need the coaching at 2'6 or 3' and should for safetys sake wait for the trainer to give last minute instructions.

Customer #3 able to ride independently and understand the questions being asked by the course designer, knows his/her horse, is able to put it all together and can get by without the coach a time or two, no big deal.

Customer #4 is riding at the higher levels and addressing much more techincal questions. When the main trainer isn't available, this rider should always, or nearly always, have someone to confir with: another rider, a different trainer, an assistant trainer. It's a matter of having the right plan and really making sure you understand the difficulties of the course.

It's just terrible when the gate is open and people are standing around waiting. Waiting. Waiting. Holding up the show because, "god dam it, I'm paying for so and so to be at the ring side so I'm not going in until he/she gets here and screw the rest of you because I refuse to ride by myself for even this one time. You all can wait until I get ALL of my money's worth"

Now I'm not saying that if it's a big championship class or a finals class, or especially money, I wouldn't do the same thing but for a regular class on day 2 of the show for the AA hunters? Come on.

tle

Jun. 10, 2004, 10:14 AM

hifi... i'm sincerely glad you have a good trainer whom you "luv". I'm also glad you did go in the ring. What follows really isn't a reflection on those points.

However, it is totally baffling me why there is a 9 PAGE THREAD arguing on whether it is the show management's responsibility to ensure that trainers meet their financial responsibilities by being able to do 20 things at once yet still watch clients. I'm certainly not saying you aren't entitled to have someone knowledgible there if that's what you want (although "NEEDING" it is a bit much IMHO especially at the 3' level... but that's another rant for another day), but if you paid for the trainer support and the scheduling is not working out, why is that management's fault? You contracted to have trainer support. If trainer can't be there, that is between you and the trainer. Your options would be for trainer to make other arrangements (get an assistant or someone to help you, not be so overly scheduled with their own rides, etc.) or for you to make other arrangements (not ride, not pay for trainer support that isn't going to happen). But again, that's between you and the trainer. the fact the shows consistently hold rings for issues like this is A COURTESY THAT SHOULD **NOT** BE VIEWED AS AN OBLIGATION ON THE PART OF A SHOW... aside from the fact that I also consider it rude and selfish (from the standpoint of the other competitors who worked this out for themselves, and to management who are doing their best) to blatantly expect it.

9 pages? wow...

RugBug

Jun. 10, 2004, 10:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by PiedPiper:
Tidy Rabbit-
But how many people are TRULY like that and how many have been conditioned/trained to be like that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I show with one woman who is truly like that and one who was trained to be that way. As much as I love them, they both can drive me nuts.

I'm fairly independent...I warm my horse up, I check how many horses to go, laern my courses, figure when I need to be dressed, on, warmed-up, etc. If my trainer isn't around, I will jump on my own (if the jumps are set correctly).

The one woman who was trained to be dependent is always asking questions about when to do things, "Is it okay to get on now? Should I longe now? when are you going to get dressed?" etc. I try to answer politely and help her focus and devise a plan...but sometimes it gets to be too much because she makes me lose my focus.

The other is a complete perfectionist and is hard to deal with the week before a show. She's nervous, uptight and has a hard time settling down. She can't remember her courses (I can usually memorize all my courses at once, in a few minutes)...she is very nearly a basket case while showing. The nervous energy coming off her is amazing.

All three of us ride with the same trainer...who has to accomodate all of our styles. She is often shocked to see my walking into the in-gate for my next round. For Ms. High-strung, she has to be with her the 10 minutes before her round to keep her focused and postive.

Basically, this was a long and convoluted way of saying that it's not all the trainers doing, different people require different amounts of coaching.

DMK

Jun. 10, 2004, 10:25 AM

JUSTTHEMOM

Jun. 10, 2004, 10:26 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tidy rabbit:It's just terrible when the gate is open and people are standing around waiting. Waiting. Waiting. /QUOTE]
This has all been so interesting/enlightening for me. My daughter is a beginner, and we're just going to shows to watch and learn, hoping to start with schooling shows this Fall. It's always AMAZED me how long they'll leave a ring empty, just waiting for someone. I couldn't figure out WHY this was the case. I'm sure waiting on a trainer is only one reason. And, being a beginner, with me having no experience, I'd hope her trainer was available for her. BUT...I'd be the first to say "you've gotta go" if she was called. It just seems disrespectful to others if not. I always thought the rider being paged just wasn't ready...and I could never believe they'd hold EVERYONE up for that. I see why it takes SO SO SO long to get through even small classes. Interesting...very interesting.

JTM

PiedPiper

Jun. 10, 2004, 10:38 AM

Okay so I get that some people are like that but again I ask, since humans and horses are very similar, aren't they just conditioned!?! If you have a student that is asking for the world and you DON'T give it, can't you recondition them out of this behaviour or at least wean them to a degree. If you make it that independence is a good thing, a behavior the trainer wants to see, then it is rewarded and more likely to happen again. See, same as horses. Also with everyone getting so scared, what are you REALLY scared of? What is in your head is ten times worse than anything that could happen in real life. Again, it is only relative.

My way of thinking is this "unfavorable" behavior, this dependency is only there b/c it is allowed. And if a student is that freaked before, during, or after showing then WHY ARE THEY SHOWING!?! It isn't for every one and doesn't mean someone is a bad rider for not doing it. I see showing as a snapshot of my riding and my horse at that moment in time. So it is just an evaluation on not only myself but on my trainer as well.

But again I ask for all those with this dependency are you happy with it? Do you like your situation? Don't tell me that is the way it is, this is how it has to be, etc, b/c that is b/s. The only difinites in life are death and taxes so anything can be changed but I want to know if deep down do you LIKE it? Do you like the constant "mothering"? Do you like that someone else is taking care of all the details? That someone else is there for the credit good or bad? OR would you like to be more independent? Would you like to jump when you felt like jumping and know how to critique yourself? Would you like to show on your own or with friends and be able to go back to your trainer and give a confident and definite analysis of your performance? Like to take credit good or bad? To handle the details on your own? To know at the end of the day you may have had help getting to that point but that day was your own. The wins were yours as were the losses.

Anyway just musing here at this point on a point of view that is so alien to my own. But then again the idea of any kind of dependency makes me want to run and hide! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

hifi

Jun. 10, 2004, 10:51 AM

I don't think of myself as dependent. I show to learn. Just like I asked someone why the girl from lower Slavovia showed up to the world cut and refused out? She told me, and she is a smart horseman, "That is how she gets better and learns". Even at that level. So back to my point, I show to learn and if I don't challage myself, I won't learn. There is a little part of me who is a scared amateur who would like feed back, esp. the last class of the show. And I am not going to feel guilty about being scared either. I always want to improve the performance from the previous class but it didn't turn out that was. It wasn't ideal.

tidy rabbit

Jun. 10, 2004, 10:53 AM

Hey PiedPiper,

You are part of the 20% of people who do the work, who act and think independently, not just in horses and riding, but in life.

The other 80% are not like you. Those people are just as valuable and just as important, but different and have a different set of needs.

Trainers who coddle and control their students are just a more experienced version of those same students who like that type of treatment.

The Trainers who don't do this and want independent thinkers and athletes don't attract that type of clientel because they are known as "tough" or "tyrantical" because they don't put up with the high maintence "I can't do it for myself I need you 24 hours a day, 15 phone calls a day" needy needy bs.

So, as always, the wonderful world of horses has something for everyone and because of that we have boards like this to discuss it! How fun that makes the day!

RugBug

Jun. 10, 2004, 11:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by PiedPiper:
Okay so I get that some people are like that but again I ask, since humans and horses are very similar, aren't they just conditioned!?! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If only it were that simple. Just a "Buck up little camper" and everything would be under control.

Let me put it this way. You compared humans and horses and say it's conditioning. Can you condition sensitivity out of a horse? Can you make a hot horse quiet (naturally, that is)? Can you make a dead head horse hot? Nope to all of the above. You can alter things to some extent, but you are still dealing with the nature of the beast you are riding. You can't condition that out of them. Same as with people. Just like tidy rabbit said...that's why there are different types of trainers for different types of riders.

tidy rabbit

Jun. 10, 2004, 11:08 AM

Hey HiFi- Sorry for hi-jacking your thread.

DMK

Jun. 10, 2004, 11:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RugBug:
If only it were that simple. Just a "Buck up little camper" and everything would be under control. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's "Buck up Little Beaver" in my neck of the woods! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

And wouldn't life be so much easier if that is all it took to get us past our difficulties? What WOULD the drug companies do if no one took prozac anymore? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Bumpkin

Jun. 10, 2004, 11:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by PiedPiper:
Tidy Rabbit-
But how many people are TRULY like that and how many have been conditioned/trained to be like that? I think with this mentality too many hunter riders do themselves a grave disservice. From the hunter riders I have seen and talked to, I find that they are MUCH better riders than they think but they are in this mindset that they can't breath without their trainer there telling them it is okay b/c the trainer has TOLD them they have to okay it first!

The girl I was with at Upperville yesterday is a prime example. An EXCELLENT rider, great leg, great position, but totally and completely freaked. She is more independent since she was there sans her trainer but told me of the crap she was getting for it and how "her trainer is happy when people fail without her(trainer)"! That is insane! To me how you jump at home is really no different than how you jump at a show. If you have a problem of jumping ahead then by gum I can almost gaurantee that it is going to happen at a show. But shouldn't the student know when it happened? The student should be able to go over the ride and tell what happened at every jump, every turn, every spot. This is the only way you stop riding like a passenger and start taking some control over you riding!

I think this dependency is a disservice to the trainer as well. The trainer should keep their students b/c of the improvements they help create in their students not for the dependency. The trainer is using control and manipulation as a way to keep their students instead of what should be doing it, their teaching. I personally feel that a good teacher teaches a student to think for themselves and to be able to analyze and solve problems. I also think that trainers should be teaching students that fear is only relative and there are tools to help with minimizing it. It is hard to leave the nest but it is very important in growing up! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sorry this has gotten off topic some but just some revelations this week that I have been pondering over.

But the bottomline HiFi is you can either use this incident as a stumbling block or a stepping stone. You went out even though yuo were scared and alone and even though it didn't go perfectly you still did it and completed it! That is a great accomplishment and something you should be proud of. You were able to keep it together even when things werent' going perfectly at a height you hadn't competed at before and when you had to step up to the plate you did! That is the best part. You could have very easily stepped aside and let your fear win and you didn't so I think you have alot to be proud of and sounds like you did a pretty fabulous job! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good one PiedPiper!!!
Pretty much this thread is like the one I started the other day...
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=7076024331&m=420208223&p=1

I feel that the riders do need to buck up and be a little bit more selfsufficient.
Maybe charges would be less, if trainers did not have to hold hands so much.
JMHO of course.

thebrit

Jun. 10, 2004, 11:46 AM

As an event rider I do not often ride at hunter/jumper shows, but because we have young horses and sale horses I occasionaly have to ride in them.

The one thing that my business partner and I hate at these shows is the waiting around. Yes, I understand it is unavoidable as everyone has to take their turn and yes I understand that we are all in the same boat and we all have to wait BUT when people hold up the ingate because their trainer cannot be there, then it holds up the rest of the show, and not just that class but the rest of the classes in that ring. What if everyone's trainer could not be there to watch them go and everyone requested that they not go in until said trainer arrived? The entire show would be a shambles!

In eventing, we are given a time for dressage, a time for xc and a time for stadium. You show up at that time or you risk being eliminated. Simple as.

canadian eh?

Jun. 10, 2004, 11:50 AM

I'll have to admit I didn't read all 9 pages but I get the jist of what is being said.

I too can see both sides here and also feel Hifi's pain about the situation. I do beilieve it is not the management's fault, they probably have this situation come up a million times a day and simply can't accomodate everyone.

I am a nervous rider (a re-rider) just getting back into it on a green horse (I know bad combo) but she is an exceptional green horse and I have a great trainer/coach. This horse gives me more confidence and ambition then any horse has in a very long time. That being said, I can jump a 2' course a hundred times at home and do a respectable job, get to a show however, and I fall apart. I need my trainer with me to keep my nerves in check and keep me focused on what I'm doing. I know, it's only 2' big deal right?! Well to me it is a big deal and I'm afraid. Maybe I'm a wimp and shouldn't be showing or whatever, but I truly WANT to do this and overcome my fear. I just need a little hand-holding to stay focused.

My trainer is very sympathetic to this and knows how I feel and how scared I am, she makes sure she arranges everything in the AM to accomodate her students to the best of her capabilities. She takes special care with the green or nervous ones, to make sure they get enough prep and support if they need it. The more seasoned students, can handle a little less hand holding, but she makes sure she is there for everyone in a capacity that they can handle and are happy with. It's not always perfect and there are conflicts, but usually we are fully aware by the am and can discuss all of our options.

I really really sympathize with you Hifi, but my only suggestion is to plan your move-ups with your trainer so that you get the support you need from her. Stick with the schooling classes for that show if you know she'll be tied up for the bigger class. Next show hopefully your times will co-ordinate better and she can prep you as much as you need. This situation arose for me just this past weekend, and I knew she wouldn't have the time I needed to mentally prepare for this show. I opted to have her ride my horse in the classes and was so pleased I did. She had a million students to warm up and get in the ring but she was able to most of it "on horseback" and my horse had an awesome show, gained a ton of confidence and so did all of her other students. Sometimes a little planning makes for a more relaxed experience..... and god knows I need all the calming effects I can muster http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Diva98

Jun. 10, 2004, 01:01 PM

I posted earlier and came back to see what else was being said - and while I should probably just hold my tounge...here goes:

It seems like the majority of people posting here have the opinion that if you need a trainer at the ring, you must be a weak rider or a spoiled brat who needs your hand held.

Well, I ride and show with a trainer and I don't consider myself any of those things. My trainer and I are partners. I have had my horse since she was 2 and while I have done most of the riding on her, I know I wouldn't be where I am without my trainer as support - both at home and in the show ring.

My mare has a very organized routine when we show and both my trainer and I work hard to make sure she is ready to go to the ring. I do get show jitters (from the sounds of these posts, some you never do - lucky!) and my trainer is not only there to calm me down but to make sure my horse is prepared, lest I forget a part of the program with my nerves. That is what she is paid to do.

She has a lot of other clients, but we all feel like we get 100% of her attention when we go in the ring. She is very good at making sure her time is well organized.

The idea that I am a weaker rider or not independent is really insulting. When I go in the ring, I make the decisions and when I come out, I critique my ride along with my trainer. Yes, I could go in the ring without my trainer, but I don't think it would be 1/2 as valuable - because I ride and show to learn. Good for all of you who show without your trainers, but don't think for a second that it makes you better than anyone who chooses to.

As for the original question from the original poster: I have never seen anyone forced to go in the ring without their trainer at any of the A H/J shows I have gone to throughout the Midwest. I have seen rings held for trainers, but never for a significantly long time - mostly because the ring people are really good at shuffling people around and the trainers are good at organizing your time. I wouldn't like to go into the ring either without my trainer nearby, so if this happens again, try to work with the gate person and the manager to shuffle the order of go or hold the ring for a bit. Only with my trainer's permission (which it sounds like you may have had) would I go in the ring with another trainer or by myself.

Regardless - it sounds like you handled the situation really well - so good for you! Good luck with your showing.

eclipse

Jun. 10, 2004, 01:06 PM

I know when we do away shows, the trainer & riders look at the schedule every morning. She then points out where there may be some ring conflicts & we try to post either at the end or beginning of the class. Now, this is not always infallable, but rarely do we hold up a ring, and if by chance we are already at the end of a class, it's usually a 10min hold tops. And, on the other side of it, I NEVER mind waiting an extra 10-15 mins for the results, BUT when a ring is held up for over an hour (yep it's happened), because a trainer was busy riding & then had to fully school her riders then there is a major problem. There should definatly be a time limit for how long a ring will hold at the end of the class!

Yes, my trainer has occasionally asked another to watch us if there's ring conflicts that cannot be worked around, and I have done the ocassional hunter round without her present. BUT, (especially in the jumper ring) I would rather have her there with me, to critique my round & to offer feedback. I competed in another dangerous sport (gymnatics) & at a very high level & you would of NEVER gone into a competition without your coach...NEVER!

Tiramit

Jun. 10, 2004, 01:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Diva98:

It seems like the majority of people posting here have the opinion that if you need a trainer at the ring, you must be a weak rider or a spoiled brat who needs your hand held.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Welcome to the BB, Diva! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

That's not the vibe I'm receiving from these posts. Frankly, I'd bet most of us who are of the "go ahead and ride or scatch rather than delay things" mentality really could care less if a rider has a trainer at the in-gate or not, as long as that rider does not hold up the class waiting for a trainer.

Albion

Jun. 10, 2004, 01:40 PM

I can see both sides of the issue here, but I think some of the comparisons to eventing ARE comparing apples & oranges.

Besides the fact that many eventers have a 'd.i.y.' attitude, the fact is, horse trials & horse shows (h/j shows) are totally different animals.

It helps to have your coach warm you up for your dressage, stadium, and XC phases - but unlike, say, a hunter division, where there are multiple o/f classes, you get one shot at each phase for eventing. Of course having a coach watching isn't going to be as useful in a fixing something RIGHT NOW sort of way. In hunters, if you have a chip at fence 5, you can come out of the ring to your trainer & trainer can say, 'You chipped at fence 5 because of X, Y, or Z - now this is how to fix it for your next round' - not 'this is how you fix it for the next show'. I think videos are an excellent learning tool after the fact, and really invaluable for anyone who is showing. But videoing your hunter round & watching it sans coach is NOT neccessarily going to put you in a better spot for your next round for X, Y, or Z division. After the fact? Really great learning resource. Right then & there, esp. for ammies/juniors with less educated eyes, you might not catch that little tiny tick that caused you to chip or whatever.

And let's face it, other than warming up & the course walk, a coach is practically useless for the actual XC phase. Even if coaches were allowed to give verbal assistance, they'd have a hell of a time chasing you over hill & dale on a XC course to GIVE you advice.

I've done hunters & I've evented, and I had a competent trainer for both. When I was eventing, my coach warmed me up for all 3 phases & that was it - we discussed any issues that cropped up in dressage/stadium/XC at my next lesson. My hunter trainer was always there - and these weren't even big shows, just unrecognized schooling shows. I was perfectly capable of going into a ring by myself, and I did, but it was nice having that extra set of eyes on the ground during warm up & my courses.

I don't think it's management's fault, as others have said - although I don't think they handled it in the best way. They have a responsibility to ALL paying customers, not just one. It's a shame that hifi was stuck in an uncomfortable position, but at least you got in there & did it! The results may not have been what you hoped, but you still got the job done. I do think it's a trainer's job to figure out potential conflicts & plan for them - I'm assuming the 3 GP horses weren't catch rides. Some things are going to take a higher priority & conflicts need to be planned for.

horse_poor

Jun. 10, 2004, 02:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tiramit:

That's not the vibe I'm receiving from these posts. Frankly, I'd bet most of us who are of the "go ahead and ride or scatch rather than delay things" mentality really could care less if a rider has a trainer at the in-gate or not, as long as that rider does not hold up the class waiting for a trainer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree 100% tiramit!!!!!! personally i dont give a fig if you want 100 trainers watching your round or if you have xero--just please please please try to coordinate it all so that the entire ring and other riders have to be held up-see my posy a few pages ago about riders A, B, and C to see my point about the domino effect. conflicts happen, but if person and trainer A arranged things to mesh, and person B doesnt have anyone to mesh with, they are gonna get might pissed when person C holds up the whole ring after management has done what they can by bumping to the end of the rider list, etc-----maganegenmt has to make a lot of people happy, not just person c--and then there is person D, E, and F who have meshed with THEIR trainers etc to be there for the following class in that ring who now has to arrange everything becasue person D's trainer has another rider in another ring who has been bumped back to the end and is goingf to ride as soon as erson D's ride is over, so there goes the ewhole domino effect in yet another ring of the show.

Like i said i dont give a fig, but when the gate holds etc starts to effect my riding and my schedule then i get pissed. and like i said earlier, those who do not like that type of restriction at the gates and with management will go elsewhere, those who like it will continue to go---kinda sad that it seems gate holds determine where we will and will not show sometimes.

many years ago we ran into a ring conflict and my trainer couldnt be there--i went in and had a great ride--was bummed she couldnt see it but it was video taped------i didnt hold the gate and therefore that entire ring because we just couldnt swing the timing

Madeline

Jun. 10, 2004, 03:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Diva98:

<snip>
The idea that I am a weaker rider or not independent is really insulting. When I go in the ring, I make the decisions and when I come out, I critique my ride along with my trainer. Yes, I could go in the ring without my trainer, but I don't think it would be 1/2 as valuable - because I ride and show to learn. Good for all of you who show without your trainers, but don't think for a second that it makes you better than anyone who chooses to.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But why should everyone showing after you in that ring be made to wait and pay for your "more valuable " education? This is just a question of good manners and consideration for others. The rules for open gates are in place. Being a cranky old broad, I would love to see them enforced...

Lord Helpus

Jun. 10, 2004, 03:55 PM

I have only read pp. 1, 5 and 10, but has anyone suggested that this situation could have been avoided if the conflict had been anticipated (especially since the times for the GP course walk and start were fixed) and moved HiFi to the top of the jump order?

These 3' jumper classes are large and HiFi says that she was suposed to go toward the bottom of the order. That tells me that the class had been going on for a while and HiFi could have been squeezed into the rotation earlier.

Plus, the trainer must have help --- someone who warms her up and sets jumps for her up in the GP ring. Couldn't that person, who must be at least semi-knowledgable and known to HiFi, have come down to set jumps and helped HiFi warm up while the trainer was walking the course?

It seems to me that, with a little advance planning (perhaps even having a more advanced jumper rider in the barn help HiFi warm up -- and don't give me any hogwash about losing ammie status -- one barn member helping another in a pinch is not going to cause a report to be filed) this situation could have been avoided.

Any trainer with 3 horses in a GP must have a large enough organization that there is enough support staff to cover other rings during crunch times.

HorseeHunter

Jun. 10, 2004, 07:36 PM

bottom line: you paid for a service you did not recieve

you paid for it and you did not get it it does not matter whether you should be capable enough to march in the ring independently or have the right to have your trainer

paw

Jun. 10, 2004, 08:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HorseeHunter:
bottom line: you paid for a service you did not recieve

you paid for it and you did not get it it does not matter whether you should be capable enough to march in the ring independently or have the right to have your trainer <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except that the service paid for and not received was the training and not the showing. The OP thinks they have a beef with the show, and many of us think that's not where the finger should be pointing.

And yes, I was just about to make the point LH did - the trainer presumably knew the GP timing, so why did hifi not go earlier in the class? I'd be very surprised if the gate would not have accomodated someone who showed up ready to go in...

hifi

Jun. 10, 2004, 08:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by paw:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HorseeHunter:
bottom line: you paid for a service you did not recieve

you paid for it and you did not get it it does not matter whether you should be capable enough to march in the ring independently or have the right to have your trainer <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The two classes started about the same time. She tried to get down to my ring which is a half a mile fromthe rest of the show, the forgotten ring.....

Except that the service paid for and not received was the _training_ and not the showing. The OP thinks they have a beef with the show, and many of us think that's not where the finger should be pointing.

And yes, I was just about to make the point LH did - the trainer presumably knew the GP timing, so why did hifi not go earlier in the class? I'd be very surprised if the gate would not have accomodated someone who showed up ready to go in... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OverOxer

Jun. 11, 2004, 12:38 AM

I stopped reading properly at about the sixth page, so forgive if I'm a bit off here. If you pay your trainer to train you at shows, damn right he should be there. However, I feel that's more between rider and trainer and regardless if you're first or last to go, it's an inconvenience for everyone else. Riders get moved up to an earlier slot when they perhaps aren't ready. Riders and horses end up waiting around for the judging to finish and awarding to take place. Trainers who may have other places to be get held up because their student's order in the entry got shifted around.

By no means am I rapping on someone for not being able to enter the ring without a trainer but I find it a bit unfair, that's all, when others are inconvenienced because of it. I rode on the National Team with my trainer once. We were one after the other in the order so I had to warm up solo - and mind you, this was only my second outing with the team so I was nervous as hell! Nevertheless, got in there and did a good job. My trainer missed it but what is always a good idea is to get a video camera so you can still get your money's worth of instruction when the trainer can't be there.

Let the flames rage.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

apimom

Jun. 11, 2004, 05:24 AM

Wow! 10 pages on
Service rendered - getting paid
Service not rendered - not getting paid
Service not rendered in the long run - change service provider.
The judgement of people amuses me if one needs a trainer psychologically or not or shows being held up or not is the decision of people you and I will not change - aside from the fact that it was not the question.

One trainer cannot be in two places at the same time. A lot of trainer take over students decisions down to their underwear which comes with a lot of trade off on the trainer's side. You cannot have it both ways. I tell my students that sometimes I cannot be in two places at the same time and that sometimes I will not go to one of their shows because of previous commitments. If they cannot live with this, I suggest another trainer - no bad feelings.

This is like a store: You have the product I want, I will shop there. You have the product with some features I do not like I might shop there but I am also aware I might not be able to make you carry the product exactly as I want it. You do not carry the product I want. I will not shop there. Under no circumstances can I expect other customers to bow to my whishes.

And lasty: A lot of shows have a space for the trainer in their entry forms for the very reason to keep the rides of one triner as far apart as possible.

Bumpkin

Jun. 11, 2004, 08:51 AM

Well said Apimom.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Like the line about chosing the underwear, I know some trainers who are just that controlling, makes me shudder.
But if adults allow someone half their age to tell them such tripe, who am I to complain.
hahahaha
Hifi this is NOT aimed at you dear.

PiedPiper

Jun. 11, 2004, 09:19 AM

HiFi-
I am sorry if you think I implied that you were too dependent, it was a tangent I was going down at the moment and trying to figure something out. I understand where you are coming from and do know the fear of going into a ring "on your own". But I do believe it was up to you and the trainer to work around the schedule but again you did it, did well and learned some important lessons.

I am going to have to argue that I do think you can condition out some of these less than desirable behaviors, out of horse and rider. Can you desensitize a hot horse, absolutely! Can you make a lazy horse hot? To a degree, yes. I think with all the research done by behaviour scientists and some of the top trainers I have seen there really isn't anything you can't make a human or a horse do if set up properly. How do you stop a horse from spooking at something? You make them confront the fear, touch it, and see that it is nothing special.

Again, it comes down to making the desired response the easiest and all others unpleasant. And you reward for every small step forward. I am not saying you toss the rider "into the dark unknown" and say sink or swim, but take baby steps forward to achieving said goal. To me independence is nothing more than knowing the tools needed for most common situations. This knowledge is what gives the rider the independence to be away from the trainer and to be out on their own.

But anyway, I don't think we all will agree on this but do find it a little depressing that so many people are just looked at as "clingy" and "high maintenance" when it may be that they are missing the tools to be less of those two qualities. Do I believe this would apply to everyone, absolutely not, but I think that the 80/20 talked about would and should even out more.

I think it comes down to asking yourself three questions, do you have the tools needed to handle most common situations, are you taught them, and do you think you should have them?

Blinky

Jun. 11, 2004, 09:37 AM

I am sssssoooo tired of the comparisions of H/J to Eventers and Dressage. Can we please get off that.

Timex

Jun. 11, 2004, 09:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Blinky:
I am sssssoooo tired of the comparisions of H/J to Eventers and Dressage. Can we please get off that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

why? the comparisons that were being made were completely relevant to the direction this thread has taken.

RugBug

Jun. 11, 2004, 10:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Timex:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Blinky:
I am sssssoooo tired of the comparisions of H/J to Eventers and Dressage. Can we please get off that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

why? the comparisons that were being made were completely relevant to the direction this thread has taken. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They're not relevant, Timex. You are taking three completely different sports, looking for three completely different things, testing different skills and then saying, because they have a horse in common, that they are comparable. They aren't.

And, on that note...there's not one of the three that's better than the others. They are different. Nothing about one makes it inherently better than the others.

tle

Jun. 11, 2004, 10:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>They're not relevant, Timex. You are taking three completely different sports, looking for three completely different things, testing different skills and then saying, because they have a horse in common, that they are comparable. They aren't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the way the comparison was made IS relevant -- someone saying "I like the way they do things in D/E where you have a set ride time and you need to be there or be eliminated" most certainly IS relevant in a discussion where the central thread was dealing with late/open rings, time conflicts, etc.

Timex

Jun. 11, 2004, 10:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RugBug:
[They're not relevant, Timex. You are taking three completely different sports, looking for three completely different things, testing different skills and then saying, because they have a horse in common, that they are comparable. They aren't.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no one was comparing dressage riding to riding in an event to doing h/j. what was being compared was the way dressage and eventing have assigned times to compete, whereas h/j does not. soory, but it's on topic and totally relevant.

RugBug

Jun. 11, 2004, 10:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Timex:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RugBug:
[They're not relevant, Timex. You are taking three completely different sports, looking for three completely different things, testing different skills and then saying, because they have a horse in common, that they are comparable. They aren't.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no one was comparing dressage riding to riding in an event to doing h/j. what was being compared was the way dressage and eventing have assigned times to compete, whereas h/j does not. soory, but it's on topic and totally relevant. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the comparison started with "why do you have to have a trainer present...eventers don't" and has since moved.

Okay, so now we're trading this old discussion for that old discussion.

My response to implementing ride times? I don't want to exchange my set of problems for your set of problems. Each system does have it's own inherent problems. Ride times equal loss of flexibility. No ride times equals possibly longer days and having to estimate when you will be riding.

Blinky

Jun. 11, 2004, 10:28 AM

Thanks RugBug.

Because the comparision is made all the time on this Forum. It gets old. I as a Hunter rider would not dare to suggest to the Eventers how to better run their sport yet the reverse happens all the time.

The discussion was on ring conflicts.

mcd

Jun. 11, 2004, 01:01 PM

Actually I was the one that first suggested hunter jumper shows perhaps look at the eventing model of giving approximate times in the ring to their riders (back at least eight pages ago) check out the Canadian hunter jumper horse shows at Bolton (www.equiman.com (http://www.equiman.com)) and you will see that the main jumper ring at least has a start time, and then spaces horses a few minutes apart so at least you have SOME idea of when you might be close to going at least in that ring. Also, you can look on the internet and check how many horses are entered in today's classes, which also helps you guage approximately what time you will be close to the ring, and how long each class/division should take (given that the ring doesn't get held indefinately, of course http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Since I first made the comparison, please believe me that I certainly was NOT comparing eventing riders to hunter jumper riders, but rather the way the shows are organized and run. I'm not sure where along the lines the discussion got blurred. I was not "daring" to tell someone else how to run their sport, but rather suggesting that perhaps we can all learn from one another, something we in our insular lives sometimes tend to forget.

Michelle.

AdagioWA

Jun. 11, 2004, 01:37 PM

I am one of the typical A/A riders that rely on my trainer to get my horse ready for me to show. I work full time, I have kids and a non-horsie husband. I do not have time to be the only caretaker of my horse. If I had the choice of double my salary or an additional 8 hours in each day, I would take the additional hours.

At shows, my trainer show my horse on the pro days, but I warm up and ride on the days that I show. If I have a problem in warm-up, my trainer may hop on and see if she can fix it. If I am running late (the last minute meeting, etc) my trainer may warm up my horse as well.

I am at the show to learn. I want my trainers eyes on me when I am in the ring so I can hear her comments afterwards. I would never go in the ring without her unless she says go ahead. I am not a talented, natural rider, but someone who needs an eye on the ground.

I pay a fortune to show and for those 2 minutes I am in the ring, I want to get the maximum out of the experience. If my trainer is not there, my learning experience is greatly diminished. I feel bad if we have to hold up the ring, but I try to communicate the holdup as soon as possible and I try to be nice about it. So hifi, I totally understand where you are coming from.

RugBug

Jun. 11, 2004, 02:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mcd:
Since I first made the comparison, please believe me that I certainly was NOT comparing eventing riders to hunter jumper riders, but rather the way the shows are organized and run. I'm not sure where along the lines the discussion got blurred. I was not "daring" to tell someone else how to run their sport, but rather suggesting that perhaps we can all learn from one another, something we in our insular lives sometimes tend to forget.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eh, mcd, no one was faulting you...it's an old discussion, brought up every few months.

There are many shows out there that give an approximate start time for each class. Whether you trust that start time is up to you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The Muffin Man

Jun. 11, 2004, 02:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by AdagioWA:
I am one of the typical A/A riders that rely on my trainer to get my horse ready for me to show. I work full time, I have kids and a non-horsie husband. I do not have time to be the only caretaker of my horse. If I had the choice of double my salary or an additional 8 hours in each day, I would take the additional hours.

At shows, my trainer show my horse on the pro days, but I warm up and ride on the days that I show. If I have a problem in warm-up, my trainer may hop on and see if she can fix it. If I am running late (the last minute meeting, etc) my trainer may warm up my horse as well.

I am at the show to learn. I want my trainers eyes on me when I am in the ring so I can hear her comments afterwards. I would never go in the ring without her unless she says go ahead. I am not a talented, natural rider, but someone who needs an eye on the ground.

I pay a fortune to show and for those 2 minutes I am in the ring, I want to get the maximum out of the experience. If my trainer is not there, my learning experience is greatly diminished. I feel bad if we have to hold up the ring, but I try to communicate the holdup as soon as possible and I try to be nice about it. So hifi, I totally understand where you are coming from. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it's right for one person to hold up an entire ring.

HolySmoke

Jun. 11, 2004, 02:38 PM

Many a time a gatekeeper has tried to push me into the ring! haha but i learned my lesson in xrails when they said - youre up and i went right in w/o my trainer~yea that didnt go over so well! now i will flat all of the time by myself if theres a conflict, but for jumping, trainer should be there if you need/want them. Just recently at a show a gatekeeper sent one of our barns adult begginers on a green green horse into xrails for the first time and she didnt know any better to refuse to go. I think that its ridiculous when they try to force you into the ring! And yea, i know its a pain to have to wait on other trainerless people, but those impaitent people out there can get over it bc one day YOU will be the one w/o the trainer there and YOU Will be pissed when they try to make you go in the ring - so have a little paitence! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

HolySmoke

Jun. 11, 2004, 02:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by AdagioWA:
I am at the show to learn. I want my trainers eyes on me when I am in the ring so I can hear her comments afterwards.

If my trainer is not there, my learning experience is greatly diminished. I feel bad if we have to hold up the ring, but I try to communicate the holdup as soon as possible and I try to be nice about it. So hifi, I totally understand where you are coming from. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EXACTLY!

nhwr

Jun. 11, 2004, 02:46 PM

I recently worked at a multi-discpline schooling show where the whole show shedule in one ring was disrupted for this reason. I couldn't believe it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif If you are there to learn then learn what you can on your own, please. It isn't a private lesson, afterall.

If you want feed back from your trainer, have your ride video-ed. It seems very self centered to me to hold up 50, 100 or 150 people because your trainer isn't there.

Agent86

Jun. 11, 2004, 02:48 PM

Oh get off it! You expect the whole show to work around your schedule??? Managers have too much to already, without worrying if you have your trainer there or not.

I'd put a clock on the gate, and if you're not in there, you'd get the big E.

Be glad that there is a show, that the footing is acceptable, good stabling, and the judges are decent.

Or--go manage your own show.

tractor queen

Jun. 11, 2004, 02:51 PM

There is nothing more irritating than planning your warmup, putting your name in on the order of go and then having to wait an additional 10-20 mins while a ring is on "hold". It is a terrible practice and throws everyone elses day off. You should be able to move your name to the end of the class if there is a conflict, but that's it. If your the only person left to go, and it is your turn, then you should go - no whining!

No matter what my trainer said, I would scratch before showing such poor manners as to make every one entered in that ring for the rest of the day wait on me!

breezymeadow

Jun. 11, 2004, 02:57 PM

You know - I find the length & substance of this thread absolutely mindboggling - but that is probably because of my age.

I started showing back in the '60's, & my last show was, I think, in '91 - & I can't recall any instance where I, or any of the other students, were at all nonplussed at our trainer not "being there" at ringside.

Shows were simply where we tested our skills against others - period. We were never entered in classes beyond our ability - in fact, 9 times out of 10, lower. And it was always impressed upon us that shows were virtually "nothing" in the grand scheme of things. They didn't affect how we felt about our horse. They didn't affect our current riding ability. They didn't (or I should say "shouldn't") affect our self-esteem.

To this day I truly believe that showing in the "good old days" was far better, nicer, & more productive than what everyone goes through today.

It's sad. . .. really sad.

AdagioWA

Jun. 11, 2004, 03:02 PM

I wanted to add that I have only held the gate once or twice in all my time showing. Both times the gate was only held for a short time. We try to schedule riding times as best as possible to avoid conflicts. But some rings run faster and some run slower than expected. Unless there are given ride times, conflicts will occur.

However, it is not my fault that my trainer is stuck waiting at a ring, that is getting dragged an extra time or where someone fell off slowing down the ring, while at my ring 5 people were no-shows. As I said before, if we see that there may be a conflict, we try to work it out with the gate and move down or up as necessary, but s*** happens and you just can't account for everything.

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jun. 11, 2004, 03:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by tractor queen:
There is nothing more irritating than planning your warmup, putting your name in on the order of go and then having to wait an additional 10-20 mins while a ring is on "hold". It is a terrible practice and throws everyone elses day off. You should be able to move your name to the end of the class if there is a conflict, but that's it. If your the only person left to go, and it is your turn, then you should go - no whining!

No matter what my trainer said, I would scratch before showing such poor manners as to make every one entered in that ring for the rest of the day wait on me! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are ready to go, and the ring is empty, why don't you go in while they are waiting for the other trainer??

That's what I don't get, if I am showing without a trainer and I am still waiting to do my trips, if someone has to hold for a trainer I VOLUNTEER TO GO IN. If I am there with a trainer, and need to wait a minute for him/her and there are others that are ready and still need to go, why don't they volunteer?? If it's so irritating to wait for a ring hold, and you are waiting and ready, why not walk on in the ring yourself and stop that hold? That hold should only irritate people if it is the last trip in the division and if that is the case then the gate manager did not do a good job of shuffling or the trainer/rider didn't do a good job of communicating.

breezymeadow

Jun. 11, 2004, 03:28 PM

I'm sorry - & I'm NOT trying to be rude here - but why does everyone feel that their time in the ring is "diminished" because their trainer isn't there to watch.

Isn't just "being" there & "doing" that - even without some "expert" just watching - fun & education enough??

Obviously I am "old school", but I can't help feeling that "old school" was better. Not necessarily for winning "points and ribbons", but just for sheer horsemanship.

Today's "beauty shows" & "prima donnas" sadden me. I remember when hunter classes were ALL done over true outside courses with true hunter-type jumps - not the mambsy-pambsy pseudo-jumper jumps hunters show over today. AND - all the hunter classes were done over an outside course - not a ring.

How many riders today would be winning over THAT? How many have even been SCHOOLED over that?

Gosh, I long for the good old days.

AdagioWA

Jun. 11, 2004, 03:42 PM

Breezy - for me personally, showing is not about points or ribbons. For me it is about improving my last ride and being a better rider. I need to be able to discuss my ride with someone or I will not learn from it. I know all the things I do wrong, but I also need to talk about how to fix it.

I ride very different at home and at shows. Nerves, spacyness, blondness, lack of focus what ever it is, effects me and I am learning how to overcome that at the show.

ideayoda

Jun. 11, 2004, 04:22 PM

I guess I am old school too.... a teacher there???? OMG (Is it a trainer??? Do they ride your horse??) I only had a teacher there about 1% of the time. Perhaps everone should learn how to train their own horses and evaluate their own rounds???? Perhaps juniors need a parents, but if you want to learn how to do this dont worry about being babysat.

The show managers job is to keep the show on time and track....not to stop the shows progress for one person. IF you need a coach/etc there, make THAT person responsible for being there...not the show management.

hillary

Jun. 11, 2004, 04:35 PM

AdagioWA, you hit the nail on the head. Folks, like it or not, h/j riders are "paying a fortune" to show. For hunter riders, the only real source of feedback IS THE TRAINER - there's no written test like in say dressage. The show managers need to "get the show on the road" and not let this practice of holding the rings continue - it is a real annoyance to everyone.
Trainers need to get their businesses organized - it is ridiculous to go to a six+ ring show and try to cover it with one or two trainers/asst trainers. It is not hard to envision a system that does not have ring downtime and riders get their own trainer or stand-in to help them. Holding the rings hurts everyone - the days run so long no one can stand it.
A few years ago, I was at a show with pros riding in the morning and then jrs at 1:00. The ring was of course mostly empty all morning. At noon, the show manager got on the PA and stated that the ring was starting jr classes at 1:00 and any pro rides not finished by then were not happening. Wow, did that create a bustle! One A/A I know had to suddenly show her own horse since her procrastinating trainer suddenly had 10 horses to show... And yup, he did close the ring to them at the time stated, leaving some rounds not completed.

Hifi, I am not criticizing you and I know you don't blame your trainer. Overall, it just seems like everyone needs to get real about this situation. Trainers cannot be everywhere and everyone seems to suffer when this becomes obvious.

OakesBrae

Jun. 11, 2004, 05:22 PM

Actually Hillary I think *you* hit the nail on the head with this statement...

"For hunter riders, the only real source of feedback IS THE TRAINER - there's no written test like in say dressage"

Hunter judges won't typically provide their cards in this area, and they don't have time to talk to anyone/everyone at the show.

I believe this is a major problem with the sport. There is NO feedback beyond the trainer -not even always a score.

I would *gasp* like to see ride times because it's a pain, as a trainer, to try to time everyone, get everything ready and ensure that people are to the appropriate rings on time, warmed up etc. It's definitely hard, and I wouldn't criticize the trainer *too too* much for not being able to be there.

Now I try to get my clients to be more self-sufficient horsemen/women by not "dropping them" at the show, but by ensuring that when I'm there I can ask the appropriate questions to teach *them* how to work themselves through things, find the best striding, where to take off etc. I'm not above, however, handholding when someone needs me in "coach" role - that's okay too.

Just my .02 - and yes, I formerly evented - but I did hunters for years too :-)

Madeline

Jun. 11, 2004, 06:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by AdagioWA:
I am one of the typical A/A riders that rely on my trainer to get my horse ready for me to show. <snip>
I am at the show to learn. I want my trainers eyes on me when I am in the ring so I can hear her comments afterwards. I would never go in the ring without her unless she says go ahead. I am not a talented, natural rider, but someone who needs an eye on the ground.

I pay a fortune to show and for those 2 minutes I am in the ring, I want to get the maximum out of the experience. If my trainer is not there, my learning experience is greatly diminished. I feel bad if we have to hold up the ring, but I try to communicate the holdup as soon as possible and I try to be nice about it. So hifi, I totally understand where you are coming from. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but the rest of the competitors may be there to compete. Or their trainers may be better organized. It does not take many "just" 10 minute holds to take the end of the day into the evening. And at some point the show starts getting penalized for running over. Not to mention that the other competitors start blaming management for not keeping the show going.

It's called a "horse show" for a reason. If you want the undivided, guaranteed attention of your trainer, that's called a "lesson" or a "clinic."

Madeline

Jun. 11, 2004, 06:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ClemsonGraduateRider:

If you are ready to go, and the ring is empty, why don't you go in while they are waiting for the other trainer??

That's what I don't get, if I am showing without a trainer and I am still waiting to do my trips, if someone has to hold for a trainer I VOLUNTEER TO GO IN. If I am there with a trainer, and need to wait a minute for him/her and there are others that are ready and still need to go, why don't they volunteer?? If it's so irritating to wait for a ring hold, and you are waiting and ready, why not walk on in the ring yourself and stop that hold? That hold should only irritate people if it is the last trip in the division and if that is the case then the gate manager did not do a good job of shuffling or the trainer/rider didn't do a good job of communicating. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go ahead. Try that sometime at an AA show. Good luck.

Illyria

Jun. 11, 2004, 07:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Madeline:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ClemsonGraduateRider:

If you are ready to go, and the ring is empty, why don't you go in while they are waiting for the other trainer??

That's what I don't get, if I am showing without a trainer and I am still waiting to do my trips, if someone has to hold for a trainer I VOLUNTEER TO GO IN. If I am there with a trainer, and need to wait a minute for him/her and there are others that are ready and still need to go, why don't they volunteer?? If it's so irritating to wait for a ring hold, and you are waiting and ready, why not walk on in the ring yourself and stop that hold? That hold should only irritate people if it is the last trip in the division and if that is the case then the gate manager did not do a good job of shuffling or the trainer/rider didn't do a good job of communicating. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go ahead. Try that sometime at an AA show. Good luck. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Really? It's been my experience that most gate people are happy to let someone else in who is ready to step in the ring, if the other person is not available. At AA shows too.

buryinghill1

Jun. 11, 2004, 07:19 PM

IMHO...

And horsefolks wonder why non-horsey folks wanna go spend big bux to watch NASCAR...
The event goes on.
Period.
You need a change of pit crew.

Do you expect a show to hold up the Grand Prix for 5 minutes so your trainer can focus on you? If I owned one of those three Grand Prix horses and my critter's ride was affected by outside influences, I'd be lookin for another jock...

If I were a spectator and the Grand Prix was held up "so our trainers can help paying customers in other rings" I'd be bored and never go back...

Madeline

Jun. 11, 2004, 07:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by hillary:
AdagioWA, you hit the nail on the head. Folks, like it or not, h/j riders are "paying a fortune" to show. For hunter riders, the only real source of feedback IS THE TRAINER - there's no written test like in say dressage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What ever happened to self-monitoring? Paying attention to what YOU are doing and changing what doesn't work? Independence takes work...but the rewards are great.

madeline
Who can't understand why a person would have a nice horse and pay someone else to have all the fun. Or even some of the fun.

creseida

Jun. 11, 2004, 07:24 PM

If you want PRODUCTIVE feedback from your trainer, have someone videotape your round. Then, at some poin when you get back to the barn, or before your next lesson, sit down with your trainer together and review the tape. You can stop it and discuss each and every fence, see things that would otherwise have been missed in real time, and your trainer wouldn't be rushed reviewing your course with you so s/he could get to the next client about to ride.

Then once you've reviewed the tape, you can decide what areas to focus on for your next lesson.

In the mean time, the show isn't being held up due to "scheduling conflicts", "baby sitting" or whatever you care to call it.

hifi

Jun. 11, 2004, 08:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Agent86:
Oh get off it! You expect the whole show to work around your schedule??? Managers have too much to already, without worrying if you have your trainer there or not.

I'd put a clock on the gate, and if you're not in there, you'd get the big E.

Be glad that there is a show, that the footing is acceptable, good stabling, and the judges are decent.

Or--go manage your own show. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh and thank you for your pleasant words Agent86

hifi

Jun. 11, 2004, 08:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by buryinghill1:
IMHO...

And horsefolks wonder why non-horsey folks wanna go spend big bux to watch NASCAR...
The event goes on.
Period.
You need a change of pit crew.

Do you expect a show to hold up the Grand Prix for 5 minutes so your trainer can focus on you? If I owned one of those three Grand Prix horses and my critter's ride was affected by outside influences, I'd be lookin for another jock...

If I were a spectator and the Grand Prix was held up "so our trainers can help paying customers in other rings" I'd be bored and never go back... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't ever remember statingthat I wanted to hold up the GP in any way, I wonder why people like to put words in my mouth

trailblazer

Jun. 11, 2004, 08:49 PM

You didn't want to hold up the GP, but you did want to hold up the 3' class. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

If you have a problem, it looks like it is with your trainer. I don't know what management should have done differently.

Lauren12

Jun. 11, 2004, 09:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Madeline:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by hillary:
AdagioWA, you hit the nail on the head. Folks, like it or not, h/j riders are "paying a fortune" to show. For hunter riders, the only real source of feedback IS THE TRAINER - there's no written test like in say dressage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What ever happened to self-monitoring? Paying attention to what YOU are doing and changing what doesn't work? Independence takes work...but the rewards are great.
QUOTE]

Honestly, the juniors and amateurs take lessons and have trainers at shows because they are still LEARNING how to monitor themselves. If a trainer is there to watch your round, they can say "The reason your horse had a rail is because you didn't use enough leg off the ground," or "You have to get the horse back more in order to get the right-to-left lead change." An inexperienced rider may have felt that what they were doing was totally correct, and may not be experienced enough to "self-monitor" themselves about the little things that the professional trainers can see, and they can not. I have the opinion that we as customers of the trainers are paying an ENORMOUS amount of money per day at horse shows to get their professional opinion. Showing is not only a place to "show off" what you have learned, it is also a learning experience. I know, personally, that I learn more about the way my horse goes every time I go in the ring. I am able to see some mistakes I make, but not all. Thus, having a trainer watching me is necessary, so that I learn as much as I can from each round. At every show I have been to, if there is a conflict, the show management has been more than happy to send other people in the ring before me. Trainers work very hard to watch every one of their students go in the ring, and show management realizes that inevitably, there will be conflicts, and they do their best to work around them. To those of you who get annoyed when a ring is held up, go ahead and go in the ring yourself. Don't gripe, just go. Horse shows should be positive learning experiences, and those of you who only see the negative need to rethink your views.

Illyria

Jun. 11, 2004, 09:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Madeline:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by hillary:
AdagioWA, you hit the nail on the head. Folks, like it or not, h/j riders are "paying a fortune" to show. For hunter riders, the only real source of feedback IS THE TRAINER - there's no written test like in say dressage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What ever happened to self-monitoring? Paying attention to what YOU are doing and changing what doesn't work? Independence takes work...but the rewards are great. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But how can you (anyone) change what doesn't work if you don't know it's not working properly? And if you did realize that something wasn't quite right, and tried to fix it, how would you know what you're trying is better? That's part of why we have trainers - so there's less guessing and trial-and-error methods, which should make it easier on the horses, who are the ones, after all, that have to deal with the mistakes.

xegeba

Jun. 11, 2004, 10:00 PM

Oh for s*** sakes... I have yet to see anyone at an A show throw a hissy fit for having to wait. Why? Because everyone there is smart enough to know that stuff happens... and the really good gate guys know how to handle the problem when it arises. Hifi went into the ring and got around sans her trainer. Everyone happy now? The fact that she didn't want to does not mean that a)she is a wimp b) she is overmounted c) her trainer is a greedy and disorganized idiot d)every H/J show in the U.S.is poorly run. As a matter of fact, the A circuit on the West Coast is very well run. Everyone WORKS together to get the job done. There are posted orders for many of the classes... but guess what? Those get screwed up as well. The rider that has an EQ. horse going in the Maclay is also posted to go in Jr. Jumpers at the same time!!!! Oh my!!!! Management screwed up there. Where I have seen the longest wait is at the lower level shows.

hifi

Jun. 11, 2004, 10:13 PM

Xegeba....Thank you for that is what I was trying to say and you put it in good words.

xegeba

Jun. 11, 2004, 10:24 PM

Hifi!!! You are the poster girl for all us posers out there that, just like you, WANT a little moral support from the person that we spend a lot of time with. NO SHAME IN THAT!!!! Good luck at your next show. I have a funny feeling you will not have this problem again!

ClemsonGraduateRider

Jun. 11, 2004, 10:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Madeline:

Go ahead. Try that sometime at an AA show. Good luck. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, considering that 8 out of 10 posters on this thread can and do go in the ring at shows without their trainers I don't see how this could possibly be a problem. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Mardi

Jun. 11, 2004, 11:03 PM

xegeba

Jun. 11, 2004, 11:08 PM

Mardi... she did do it without her trainer! help me Lord.... She didn't like it. i don't like to balance my checkbook...

Mardi

Jun. 11, 2004, 11:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RumoursFollow:
I'd tell show management I'd be glad to go in alone if they wanted to pay my trainer's fee for the day. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh puleeeeese..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

xegeba

Jun. 11, 2004, 11:33 PM

Mardi? Have you noticed that the A circuit is big business? Think about how many people make a living following the circuit. Good business people know that they have to keep their clients happy. If you were a smart gate person, there is no way in hell that you would piss a BNT off. A BNT that has paid for between 20 and 50 stalls... maybe has three horses in the GP. Dumb employee.

Judi

Jun. 11, 2004, 11:52 PM

Hey HiFi. I really do understand and feel your pain. I too seem to NEED my trainer there before I go in... but at my last show I had the big Ah Ha moment I think some of these posters are talking about.

You see my trainer will have Asst. Trainers at the shows where he has clients in competing rings. Especially since his main client has numerous top National ponies that are on top in the points race and his attention needs to be on this client. So... that leaves me to the Asst. Trainers. One of them I love to take me to the show ring as she is only there to set fences and build my confidence and ask if I feel ready.. Then she tells me to have fun and is there to give me feed back when I'm done. Interestingly enough I always seem to win with this Asst. The other one seems to feel that she needs to give me a lesson in the warm up ring and she can even begin to yell at me a bit which only serves to rattle me... Needless to say.. I always seeom to choke when this trainer works with me.

So at my last show.. I had the later Asst. Trainer. She had a ring conflict and couldn't walk the course with me than ran over from another ring, rather rattled herself, and began warming me up in a bit of a mood. To be honest I told her I was ready to go in to the show ring and do my round only to get away from her yelling... Once again I had a terrible round with her warming me up... but because I let myself get rattled.

So I started thinking to myself. If I like the trainer who just sets fences and gives me an Atta-Girl before I go in... and I win with this kind of preparation... Am I really in need of a trainer prepping me before I go in? Or would I be better off left to my own devises to get into my horse and work through any issues myself.. as that's what I'll need to do in the show ring anyway.

I think sometimes our trainers TRAIN us to be dependant on them. Now I would rather encourage you to believe you can do it yourself rather than berate you for NOT doing it yourself and holding up a ring. You see... if you can do it when that trainer is watching you... you can do it without them watching you. The only difference is in the valuable feedback after your round.

But even then... I can't really think of a time recently (and I do the 3'to 3'6" level as well) when my trainer told me something I DIDN't know that went wrong with a round. Usually they will ask "Okay.. what happened there?" etc. And I'll talk through my mistakes with them and they'll agree.

So whereas I think show management SHOULD allow you to move to a different spot to wait for your trainer... or your trainer should have an Asst. to be there for you... I also think that you should BELIEVE in yourself and trust that you can do it without them when the situation arises. You CAN do it... really.

: )

xegeba

Jun. 12, 2004, 12:19 AM

Judi... she did do it. she did it. She went in the ring and did it. Hifi went in the ring and got around the course without her trainer. She warmed up with a different trainer(who probably knew nothing about her or her horse) and got around the course(with two stops). If she does not want to go in the ring without her trainer(or an asst. that she LIKES) then that is between her and her trainer. She was asking about the GATE GUY in her original post. The GATE GUY told her to go in the ring and she went went into the ring(like a good girl)The first time she had ever shown at 3 feet...and she went in the bloody ring all by self.She didn't want to hold up the ring...and piss everyone else off(or ruin their day) so went in the ring. OKAY? If you want to go to a show by youself then go for it. Who the hell is gonna set your jumps? Pick the stalls, nightwatch, grooming?. If you are over 30 and have a life, then I think that evil trainer comes in handy.

RHdobes

Jun. 12, 2004, 12:25 AM

I didn't start taking English hunter lessons until I was 21 years old. (Heck, I didn't start taking LESSONS until I was 20.) Within a couple of years, I was jumping 3'-3'6" on my 15.1 Morgan. Now, I always thought a trainer was to teach me to ride my horse ON MY OWN. It NEVER occurred to me to ask/pay my trainer to be there to coach me AT A SHOW. (Of course, this was back in the DARK ages.)

I think a horse show is to SHOW OFF what you've learned. What can a trainer tell you THERE that he can't at HOME? Personally, I think you and he would learn more if you paid for him to show up at ONE of your shows but not tell you which one. THEN, he could see how you do "under pressure" and how much you really know. Afterall, you ARE training for the day you will NOT need a trainer, aren't you?

My dog obedience trainer says 'there is nothing you can do or learn an hour before your class. If you're not prepared, you're not prepared.' I get terribly nervous and nauseous before I go into the obedience ring, but the practice I've done AT HOME kicks in and, for the most part, we do pretty well. (197 out of 200 points, 1st place, High Scoring Working Breed Dog, 1/2 point from High In Trial at the last one! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

Still, I don't care if everyone has or needs a trainer when showing. That is your choice and your money. However, this 'holding up the show' does seem to be a problem that is mentioned over and over again here.

What if instead, your trainer were there, you were warmed up, your horse was going ABSOLUTELY perfectly, you were mentally ON, and you knew you could do the course with ease. All you had to do was wait for one rider/horse team to finish. EXCEPT, that THEIR trainer wasn't present. And YOU had to wait for 45 minutes, in which time YOUR horse got upset and tense, you started sweating in your hot coat, your trainer really needed to get over to the pony ring for someone else.....

xegeba

Jun. 12, 2004, 12:41 AM

first of all RH, a show is so much different than home that it is not worth talking about. A show isn't to show off anything. It is a competition. Some people want to win! Some handle that better than others. Ever heard of a world class rider that chokes when it really matters? How many of those world class riders go in the ring without their uh, helper. Hell... with some peoples logic, Pessoa goes to Greece all by self. "Hey!... mind if I squeeze this jump in?"

RHdobes

Jun. 12, 2004, 01:00 AM

I show in obedience trials in four National kennel clubs (soon to add a fifth) and at three different levels. I KNOW how different "home" is from a "show." AND I have spent thousands of dollars in 'training' fees, seminars, entry fees, etc.

You ain't telling me nutin' I don't already know about. The interesting thing is that I can't hand over my dog to someone else to train, tune up, or whatever beforehand. Whoever trains the dog gets the results and in my case, that's me! It gives me a great sense of accomplishment and pride that I could hand over my leash to the trainer of an OTCH (Obedience Trial Champion, VERY HARD to achieve) dog, and that person couldn't get the quality of performance out of my dog that I can.

xegeba

Jun. 12, 2004, 01:19 AM

However RH!!! Dogshows and horseshows( 1500 lb animals that a person navigates over obstacles) is not a fair comparison. Do you feel fear when you are showing the dogs? Do you run the risk of being hurt in those dog trials? Can we please implement some logic into this conversation?

JustJump

Jun. 12, 2004, 04:03 AM

<<left in the lurch because there are 3 going in the GP...How does that make you feel? Like, third rate?>>

findeight, by my count, it would have to be FOURTH-rate...that's pretty low on the totem pole.

I can't BELIEVE how long this thread is--I stuck it for awhile and skimmed up to page 7 before I gave up, so if this has already been said, or if I missed the rest of the story, I appologize...but up to page 7, I don't think we really had the WHOLE story from the OP. Someone messed up, but I'm not sure who, certainly hi-fi, her trainer, and a manager, as well? That's where the story gets fishy...I just am not swallowing it.

THREE in the Grand Prix? I think your trainer has some planning issues to work out...stranding your ammy is one thing (and not all that uncommon), but it should never happen on "moving up day." For all the geniuses that think 3 footers are accomplished riders ready to go it on their own, well, I must beg to differ on that one.

I'm surprised that "management" took it unto themselves to hook you up with another trainer--think liability issues here folks--I wouldn't want to be in that managers shoes if something went wrong; makes me think it wasn't actually the actual MANAGER who "made" hi-fi go in the ring...I mean, come on: the MANAGER would have HAD to be MANAGING his/her big Grand Prix...not fussing over the 3foot ring--the scenario, as it has been presented is very, very weak.

hi-fi...spit it out, please. What on earth did they say to you to FORCE you to go into the ring before you were ready? WHO set your schooling jumps? Any barn big enough to have 3 GPx horses had to have sent SOMEONE to your ring--or were you just playing AWOL? Suffering from an inferiority complex, and just afraid to speak up to your trainer? ("Poor me, well, I'll just go it alone, with all these strangers to help me get by...")

Nope, I don't believe all of this--so 'fess up! What REALLY happened?

horse_poor

Jun. 12, 2004, 04:07 AM

but x--thats not the point

how can a trainer stop a client from getting hurt in the ring? throw themselves underneath a falling student?

you can coach someone til the cows come home and it may help settle nerves etc, but once the client is in the show ring, it is up to them even though trainers give tips on the rail-but it is just the client and their horse in the ring-if those show nerves come back and the rider has the urge to throw up as they come to the first jump, there aint squat a trainer on the rail can do

someone said it was a show, not a lesson--i agree---i get annoyed with trainers talk students thru the entire course at a show as if it were a lesson---whats the point?!?! it it not to measure what the horse and rider know, not how well a horse and rider listen to a trainer?

but thats a whole 'nother thread

point is----it was managements decision not to hold the gate----either suck up and respect it, or scratch. if you dont like the way the show is run, dont return