Where did Thoroughbred Palominos come from?

[darkmoonlady]

I am a bit of a color genetics buff, far from an expert mind you. Having said that, when you look up Milkie who is said to be the predominent sire of diluted thoroughbreds, when you check his pedigree, somethings off. None of his ancestors are listed as being palomino. Now I realize the JC has never been accurate with color listings but I have had the suspicion for a while that maybe??? just maybe he wasn't all thoroughbred. Please don't flame me, as I love colored thoroughbreds, but the listed colors, the photographs of ancestors etc, they don't add up? Or do they? I would love it someone who has done the research to find out just where they came from.

[darkmoonlady]

I am a bit of a color genetics buff, far from an expert mind you. Having said that, when you look up Milkie who is said to be the predominent sire of diluted thoroughbreds, when you check his pedigree, somethings off. None of his ancestors are listed as being palomino. Now I realize the JC has never been accurate with color listings but I have had the suspicion for a while that maybe??? just maybe he wasn't all thoroughbred. Please don't flame me, as I love colored thoroughbreds, but the listed colors, the photographs of ancestors etc, they don't add up? Or do they? I would love it someone who has done the research to find out just where they came from.

[Little Indian]

you should ask this on the Sport Horse Breeding Forum http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[fourmares]

It wouldn;t be surprising. Man'o'War's great grand dam was a cart horse (which is why he is not registered with the British Jockey Club).

[Fred]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Little Indian:
you should ask this on the Sport Horse Breeding Forum http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ah yes, that could be exciting...but we don't want anymore 'smackdowns'. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'll go into withdrawal..
I have wondered the same thing. I have examined the pedigrees to try to find the 'source' and you're right, things just don't make sense to me either. again, not stirring anything up either - it's just that as a TB breeder and someone fascinated by TB pedigrees, it is a mystery to me..

[Nootka]

I know milkie is one of the main sires..i think


If you post this on the sport horse one.. you will have

Norsire, Gwen just to name 2 that will answer you. There would be a detailed (with many answers)reply

[Galileo1998]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fourmares:
It wouldn;t be surprising. Man'o'War's great grand dam was a cart horse (which is why he is not registered with the British Jockey Club). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is your source for that information?

Man O' War never would have been registered with the British Jockey Club because a) they don't register horses, Weahterby's does and b) he was an American bred and raced horse, there would have been no reason to register him in Britain.

His first great grand dam on top is Cinderella. She is listed in the stud book there.

Dame Masham is listed in the stud book and produced a few winners.

Roquebrune was bred by the Duchess of Montrose and was a Stakes winner herself

Mizpah won a couple of races but didn't set the world alight http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif She was a selling class mare.

[Lord Helpus]

It is true that Man O' War would not have been allowed to race in England since he was not recognized in that country as a Thoroughbred.

As I understand it, it is because one (or more) of his ancestors could not be traced to a horse recognized by the British Jockey Club. That does not mean it was a cart horse.

There were a number of American Thoroughbreds who were not recognized by other Jockey Clubs because of an ancestor whose lineage was murkey. But Man O' War is the most famous because he was the horse who caused European JC's to recognize all American TB's, thereby acknowledging that the American TB was on a par with TB's of other countries.

[PineTreeFarm]

What LordHelpus said and a bit more:
Around 1913 the British Jockey club passed the 'Jersey Act'.
This meant that horses that could not trace their heritage back to horses already recorded in the British General Stud book could not be recorded in the future. Weatherbys' ( they published the stud book) upheld the rule. Many American TB's had incomplete records due to the Revolutionary and Civil wars. I believe any descendents of the American sire Hanover were impacted by this.
I don't remember how far back the pedigree was traced but I'm thinking 8 generations.
The British also have a half bred stud book but I'm not sure how this fits in.
Any TB history buffs have any more information??

[blackstallion]

I don't want to blasted for this, but there are some who theorize that Milkie wasn't sired by a pure TB as stated in his pedigree. He is the source of the dilute gene in the TB gene pool. As any geneticist will attest, the gene didn't materialize out of thin air. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Ducking for cover.....

[Painted Wings]

Well, that was before DNA testing and blood typing but I wonder why someone would do that.

[vineyridge]

Does the dilute gene have to go through both the sire and the dam? According to information posted on pedigree query, his mother was registered as dark bay but described as dark brown. The information on Pedigree query suggests that she might have been smoky black or a very dark buckskin. Now if that is the case with that one horse, there might have been numerous other horses who are registered under the "wrong color".

In fact, we all know there are.

I found a fascinating site on odd color genetics in TBs here:

http://www.geocities.com/thoroughbredpr/history.htm

Go down to about page 6, and you'll find a discussion of the genes that make palominos.

But it's also just as likely that the color gene expressed in Milkie came from outside his TB lineage. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This can all be checked now with DNA testing. More or less.

[vxf111]

Couldn't the gene have occured through random mutation? Isn't that where it originally came from in many breeds?

[jbonifas]

Thanks for posting the article link. I find this all very facinating myself.

[ASB Stars]

Didn't Milkie descend from Mahmoud (a grey)?? I wonder where it all came from, though, as well. There was a stallion in this area quite while ago who was a Palomino TB by Milkie. He was owned by Mimi Thorington, and I cannot remember his name...he wound up in VA, I believe.

[Dinah-do]

perfect forum for a question that has bugged me for years. Several years ago (say 15) I saw a pedigree printout of an old TB mare that traced to an Arab many generations back. The Arab appeared about 1910 if I have it right. There were also N/A in the pedigree in several places. Make sense????

[Alagirl]

According to an article I read years ago the delute traces back to the *Arab* breeds (let's not forget that there where three types of Arabic horses used for the foundation of the TB, Barb horses, Turk horses and *the Arabian*

I have seen pics of a Palomine Barb and a silvergrey *palomino* as well as a farm full of those guys, the uninformed would think of them as Hafflinger http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

As far as I understand - aside the fact that at one time only uni colored horses of a dark hue where considered noble the registries of the world have had a hard time to accept the fact that yeah, there can be TBs that look like the bleachbottle ecploded in the barn and yes they can have the color odf a freshly minted goldcoin http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Wait 'till Aurum signs on!

[LuvMyMares]

I was thinking along the lines of what Alagirl said, don't the arabians only register black, bay, grey, chestnut?

I'd be interested to know what color this guy is registered as w/ the IAHA.
http://www.tiffanyranch.com/stallions/fireanice.html

[nightsong]

That Arabian in the last post is awfully dark, wonder if he's been tested for the creme gene.

[vineyridge]

If you read the site I cited, there was another palomino that appeared spontaneously in France in
1959. Sylfou, 1959 Palomino Colt, France by Djefou out of Sylvania by Louqsor. The author of that website, the front to which is here:

http://www.geocities.com/thoroughbredpr/

believes that there were probably quite a few others who were not given the correct color when registered with the Jockey Club. He points out a mare named Peroxide Blonde who was registered chestnut, but had a flaxen mane and tail. She's out of Stage Door Johnny, I believe.

As to the Arab business, the Jockey Club opened the Stud Book to an influsion of Arab Blood back around the turn of the Century. One commentator on this said the lines were "unproductive" and died out.

You also have to remember that Barbs are not Arabs, and come in many wild coat colors.

[darkmoonlady]

I am glad I started the thread, the article above though is interesting but it doesn't really give a definitive answer as to where the dilute gene got introduced. (It also doesn't really clearly state the colors either, never heard of a "bidilute" or a dark perlino. I think the researcher did a great job with whites but as for dilute they need some further research. I don't think that the gene could stay hidden for so many generations but I would love to see as complete a possible photo pedigree of Milkie. As for the Arab FireNIce, he is not palomino, he is a chestnut with a very flaxen mane and tail. The three founding arabs were said to have been darker, except for descriptions in "King of the Wind"..lol as the Godolphin almost sounds buckskin in that story.

[vineyridge]

While there may have been only three sires that converge, there were more than 645 other sires that contributed their genes to the breed. All grays trace their color to only two sires that converge in one single mare, and neither of the two is the big three--they were imported separately.

[Daydream Believer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nightsong:
That Arabian in the last post is awfully dark, wonder if he's been tested for the creme gene. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You read my mind. I'd want to see a DNA test on that one. He sure looks awfully red to me.

[Alagirl]

I hope the link works - talking about wild colors...

http://www.azzayani.de/

If the top picture does not show a Palomino, click on *Zuchtpferde* then *hengste*

The first Black one, Impossible, has *Rapp-falbe* put down for color, I guess it translates to smoky-black...

[blackstallion]

The Arabian breed does not have dilute colors in its breed. No purebred arabian can be anything but chestnut, bay, black or grey. So, no, the palomino gene did not come from an arabian.

[Alagirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blackstallion:
The Arabian breed does not have dilute colors in its breed. No purebred arabian can be anything but chestnut, bay, black or grey. So, no, the palomino gene did not come from an arabian. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Taking this as response to me piping in http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I mentioned that, though we tend to call them *Arabs* the three Grand Foundation Sires of TBs where Turk (maybe a hint of Achal Tekke or any of the equaly elegant and *araby* type middle eastern breeds...) Barb (please follow the link I provided above, and do also click on *Verkaufspferde*) as well as Arabian...the mares where also from Northern Africa to a large extend!

[darkmoonlady]

I truly don't think that the dilute gene could stay hidden that long down through the generations of "brown" horses in Milkie's dam Tootsie T's pedigree. I think she was the one who passed on the dilute gene to Milkie as from what I have read there were no dilute stallions around (can't ever know for sure), but supposedly he inherited a hoof shape? from his sire that makes it fairly reasonable to assume Deer Lodge was his sire at least by this article,
http://www.rtm-anglo-arabs.com/Milkie.html

I have a question up at the C.P.E.A message board to see if anyone knows how many generations a dilute gene could theoreticall "hide" from either one smokey black to another if thats even possible.

[hunt_jump]

So I'm curious (and don't stand on either side of this debate), if the theory being presented is that Milkie had non TB blood close-up what about other lines of palomino TBs? Where would they have come from? The one that comes to mind to me is the late Glitter Please. At a glance they do not seem to have much in common as far as breeding in the first 5 generations. Am I missing something?

[vineyridge]

There's a picture of Sylfou on Pedigree Query, and he's definitely a palomino.

Wonder what ancestors he and Milkie have in common?

[darkmoonlady]

well looking at horses that definitly are palomino and thoroughbreds, on pedigree query I am seeing some interesting things, one, there are at least four offspring of the Godolphin that were considered buckskin, and going back further there is a horse called Darleys Yellow Turk, thought to be a buckskin, so back there there were dilutes. Interestingly, there are ties to Sylfou, Glitter Please and Milkie, going way back, Sir Gallahad and also a horse named Tracery comes up in Sylfou and Glitter Please but once again way back there. If its possible to carry along the gene without expressing it by siring a palomino or a light buckskin I suppose the dilute gene could have found its way down, but one would think they would have shown themselves before? So having common ancestors and knowing somewhere in there that those ancestors had the dilute gene running around makes it more plausible, but still I have to say that in both the case of Milkie and others I would think there would be many more examples out there than just those three?? or not?? ..lol its interesting

[blackstallion]

Just a note about Pedigreequery, anybody can edit the information provided. So, everything published on that site is not necessarily fact. They have some gremlins who enjoy posting misinformation. For example, if I wanted to add that my horse was a triple crown winner, I could! But he never raced. I would refer to the Jockey Club and the history books for more fact-based research. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[hunt_jump]

It seems to me that there also might be two other problems in tracing this. The first being that there don't seem to be a ton of photos of the older bloodlines and it is hard to predict how accurate painting representations may be of older horses (correct me if I am wrong here). The second is that if, as we may assume, the lighter buckskin and palomino horses were less desirable is it possible that these horses were not registered or bred, but that darker buckskins might have passed as bay, palominos as flaxen chestnuts, and the smokey blacks as black/browns hence not being culled? That still is a stretch for explaining how the dilute could hide through so many generations but might it be one explanation? It would be interesting to see if there are other lines showing these theoretical patterns.

[PineTreeFarm]

Yes, It is true that Pedigreequery is open to all but I have seen other sources that give Palomino and Buckskin as colors for early TB's and TB foundation stock.
Cream Cheeks (1690) is thought to be palomino and her descendant Brilliant ( 1750) is sometimes listed as a buckskin. Some of his get are also thought to be Buckskin. Buffcoat (1742) is also a descendant of Cream Cheeks.
The Oxford Dun Arabian shows up in some of these pedigrees. Based on his name he is also a good candiate to be buckskin.
Interesting research project. Does anybody know when either the British or American stud books decided to use only Gr,Blk, Bay, Ch ??

[CenterlineFarm]

This may be completely off base, but I thought the dilute gene is a Dominant gene? Therefore there is no way it can be 'hidden'. If the animal has it, then it will be expressed as either a dun, palomino, cremelllo (if it gets both), smokey black etc.
I have not looked into the pedigrees of the horses in question, but I am glad this has come up since I have wondered this as well.
It seems to me that if this gene has been floating around a bit, then there should be a fair bit more palomino's etc. around. Unless by chance the dilute horses have ALWAYS been bred to a bay and given nothing but smokey blacks - which could pass as brown. If they were ever bred to a chestnut, then there should be palominos around, right?
I wonder if there is a horse that is, say just a tiny bit of QH back there somewhere - the dilute genes are pretty common in there.

[aurum]

The cream gene in the TBs came from the Achal-Tekkes - named the Turks at that time. At a certain epoche many Turks (Achal-Tekke) and Arabians have been entered into the General Studbook in England. They soon stopped entering Arabians as they found that they are not good on standing the long distances fast enough. The Achal-Tekke you can still see in some of the todays TBs when they have deer neck and long backs.

At a certain time also the TBs were predominantly dark or black horses - chestnuts were not liked - and as everybody who knows the cream gene, can testify, it is very difficult to identify the cream gene on dark bay and in black it is almost impossible without a test, which is available only recently. So the gene can "hide" even being a dominant gene. In addition the JC did not recognize the correct colors on the papers, only since last year Palomino is a recognized color since the German JC has convinced the other JCs to bring the correct color onto the papers when I imported two Palomino TBs and they had chestnut in their papers and so they came personally to check them out. There have always been Palominos in the TBs, rare in the earlier years as only the Palomino was really to be seen and named light chestnut, golden chestnut, bright chestnut, flaxen chestnut, whatever you can imagine but not the correct color - PALOMINO. The buckskins were and still are light bay, golden bay, bright bay etc. And they are still difficult to identify. Just go to my webpage and look up California Chablis the Oldenburg WB stallion on the stallion page. He is very dark buckskin and still today people say he is a dark bay, which he is definitely not. I also have two smoky blacks, go to sales and look up Achilles, he looks true black but is a smoky black, means the cream gene is hidden in the black coat. The cream gene can only modify red hair, not black and if you have a black base, the horse is still black, if you have a seal brown you can only see it golden instead of reddish on muzzle and flanks.

My first two Warmblood Palomino mares that I acquired had "flaxen chestnut" in their papers. So you can see it was not only the JC that did not know how to name this color.

There is an old Stubbs painting (I think it is a stubbs) showing the TB Whistlejacket. Don't tell me that this is a chestnut!

There have been born two cremellos in Kentucky just recently out of two "black" horses http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I attach the picture of Whistlejacket.

[loshad]

My last trainer, who was pretty knowledgable about both TBs and Akhal-Tekes, said that there is a good probability that ATs were used to develop the English TB. However, since everything that came from the east, whether the Middle East, North Africa, or the Caucuses was called an Arabian, the contribution is not very well-known.

ATs are most well known for their buckskiny golden bay, but they also come in palomino, among other colors.

[TKR]

Regarding Milkie (and others) did they have any siblings that were born Palomino? I know that some "white" foals have cropped up in Kentucky at race breeding farms from known bloodlines -- what about that?
PSG

[Norsire]

Gwen, now that you have a cremello in Germany (AL) do you think the German JC will ask for cremello to be added to the JC colors? I know when this all came up lasts year, you said since you did not have a cremello to show them that they would not pursue it yet..but now that you do have one...are they going to work on getting cremello for all of us in the JC with Cremellos???? I sure hope he will come to your farm again and see he really IS cremello. Is Al reg chestnut or palomino right now? I had to reg Billionair and Zillionair as chestnut back when they were born, but am reg Trillionair as palomino even though he is cremello. To change the others they want me to pay 50.00 for "my mistake" in reg the wrong color, which is crazy, I did not have the option back then. PLEASE work on the cremello now that you have one to show them...hummm then you will have to work on buckskin, and perlino! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[A. P.]

Check out the Gold Hope Farm website: they have a page, with photo, on Millie:
http://www.goldhopefarm.com/Milkie.htm

[vineyridge]

Bend Or, the sire of Fairy Gold, is described as a golden chestnut, and he sure looks palomino in his photograph.

"He had a Golden coat and a silvery mane and tail."

Here's the article on him:
http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/BendOr.html

If you look at some of the names of TBs, they might give clues where Palominos cropped out.

[aurum]

vineyridge, where do you see Bend Or as Palomino? He sure looks chestnut to me and his dam and sire are also chestnut so there is no go for a Palomino to pop up.

Norsire, yes Al is "Palomino" on his papers, but the German JC has signalized that they will change that to the correct color. So I am waiting now for that to happen as next.

[Norsire]

Gwen, please keep us updated on AL and if he will get cremello on his papers. I would imagine it will be the same, as last time the German JC will have to call for an international vote to have a color added to the JC reg around the world!!! Let's hope it does happen again...go Germany JC!!!! If, they do allow cremello as a color, then I will pay for my "mistake" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif in color and have mine changed to crmello!

[Lulu]

It's been a long time since I took a science class or studied evolution, but couldn't the dilute gene's sudden appearance be an example of genetic mutation? Nature does throw some curve balls.

[A. P.]

to answer some questions in this thread:
"Does the dilute gene have to go through both the sire and the dam? "

No. A single creme gene can come from either parent: if the base color is bay and a single creme gene is inherited, the horse will be buckskin, if chestnut, the result is palomino; if base is black, dilution is grulla.

If two creme genes ARE inherited (one from each parent) the offpring will be "double dilute": cremello if base color is chestnut, perlino if base color is bay, smoky black if on black.

Also (and this is one of my pet peeves), A chestnut with a flazen mane and tail IS NOT a palomino! They do not carry the creme gene and cannot thow a buckskin, palaomino, cremelo etc unless bred to a horse that carries the creme gene. I supect "Fire And Ice" is a chestnut with flaxen mane and tail, as are Belgium draft horses.

[jvanrens]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A. P.:

No. A single creme gene can come from either parent: if the base color is bay and a single creme gene is inherited, the horse will be buckskin, if chestnut, the result is palomino; if base is black, dilution is grulla. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually you can get a smokey black breeding a dilute to a bay if only the black gene & the cream gene and not the bay modifier are passed to the offspring.

You can never get a grulla by crossing a dilute to a black, since the gene that gives you a grulla is the DUN gene. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Now if the dilute parent is either a dunalino or a dunskin, well, you've got a whole different ballgame! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jo

[sagebrush]

Please no flaming as I am not a breeding or genetics expert.

Weren't most of the early American racehorses crosses between TB, Morgan, and some QH blood. They have found through research that most of the founding sires of the QH breed had a lot of TB. They would criss and cross breeding trying to get the fastest horse. I can't remember where but I even remember reading something where there was one horse under two different names recognized as two different breeds depending on who you were talking to.

I don't think there is any science involved in the throwback of a palamino gene. I think that maybe it has to do with the hidden goings on of the early american breeders.

[Kyzteke]

How the cream gene pops up every once in awhile in TBs is beyond my ability to explain, but I can make a very good guess where it came from originally -- as afew posters have noted it came from the Turkomene or Akhal-Teke horse.

They are known for a heavy concentration of cream genes in the population -- buckskins, cremellos, perlinos & palominos abound. And, since just about every TB historian has now concurred that the "Turk" horse was instrumental in developing the TB (Byerly TURK and the Darley Arabian was Muniqui strain, which has a heavy Turkoman influence), then it makes sense.

As for what a horse looks like vs what it is genetically, I've given up on that one. I've seen horses that look like a palomino and were not (genetically) and horses that looked dark bay and were actually buckskin (genetically).

Now -- how all this "skips" generations is not something I can explain...

[CenterlineFarm]

The Dilute gene CANNOT skip a generation. It is a dominant gene. Not a recessive gene. If it is there, the color will show. If it is not there then the color will not show.
Think of it similar to blonde vs. black hair. A black-haired baby CANNOT just 'pop up' in a family of blonde parents.
It is genetically impossible.
Red hair is an example of a recessive gene. It can 'pop' up as it can be hidden behind the dark hair gene. I don't know which is more dominant, red or blonde, but that is another issue!

As for WhiskeyJack - I don't think he is a palomino, is he? Although he is a gorgeous color - and I have alsways loved that painting. I have a mare a lot like him. She is most definitely a chestnut, but she has a very flaxen mane and tail. She also is pink becuase she is roaning. But I think that is because she has the Rabicano gene which gives her the skunky tail along with the roaning.

[Jasmine]

The genetics speculation on this thread are making my entire lab laugh so hard they can't speak.

The cream gene is an example of incomplete dominance. With one copy present, you get palomino, buckskin, or smokey black. With two copies present you get cremello, perlino, or smokey cream. That is on a base chestnut, bay, or black horse.

The cream gene CANNOT skip a generation. This gene CANNOT come from a grey parent, unless the grey parent also has the cream gene. (the grey gene will cause a horse to go grey regardless of any other color genes)

This could have been the result of spontaneous mutation, but that is not terribly likely. It is FAR more likely that it came from either the Turks or QHs.

[Erin Pittman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daydream Believer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nightsong:
That Arabian in the last post is awfully dark, wonder if he's been tested for the creme gene. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You read my mind. I'd want to see a DNA test on that one. He sure looks awfully red to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you look at his offspring page (http://www.tiffanyranch.com/champions.html) - you'll see lots of palominos and buckskins, though. He could just be a very dark palomino.

Interesting topic, I've always wondered the same thing...

[sketcher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by darkmoonlady:
As for the Arab FireNIce, he is not palomino, he is a chestnut with a very flaxen mane and tail. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

His palomino/buckskin offspring listed on their website are all out of palomino/buckskin mares..they do have some nicely bred, beautiful horses though.

[Palomino Leopard WB]

The Arabian breed does not have dilute colors in its breed. No purebred arabian can be anything but chestnut, bay, black or grey. So, no, the palomino gene did not come from an arabian.
______________________________________

Okay now I am REALLY confused as Fire an Ice is DEFINITELY a palomino stallion and he has produced many palomino and buckskin offspring. I have seen some of them in person and they do exist???? So, can one assume that Fire an Ice is not really a Palomino then http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Sarabeth]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Palomino Leopard WB:
The Arabian breed does not have dilute colors in its breed. No purebred arabian can be anything but chestnut, bay, black or grey. So, no, the palomino gene did not come from an arabian.
______________________________________

Okay now I am REALLY confused as Fire an Ice is DEFINITELY a palomino stallion and he has produced many palomino and buckskin offspring. I have seen some of them in person and they do exist???? So, can one assume that Fire an Ice is not really a Palomino then http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
All of his palomino & buckskin offspring are out of non-Arabian mares. The mares were the ones passing along the creme gene.

[darkmoonlady]

Not only is FireNIce not a palomino by any stretch, the reason he has dilute offspring is he has been bred the majorite of the time to double dilutes which yes would cause a high percentage of buckskins and palominos but they did NOT get that from FireNIce...I do know that the dilute gene doesn't skip a generation thats why I asked this in the first place because it seems to be that in the case of both Milkie and Glitter Please they came from buckskin mares, ok they showed thier dilute gene, but go back a few generations and its all these "brown" or "bay horses. Were they all mislabled? This is what I find curious and why I tend toward the suspect of them being totally thoroughbred UP CLOSE. I do know the dilute gene was back in the history and has been around, I just wonder why their close ancestor, responsible for passing it along don't look like dilutes. Then again there aren't many photographs of them either..lol just makes it more interesting anyway to me, I love a puzzle...

[Inyureye]

Weren't some of these, take the palomino, genes, from the early barb etc. genes which are in the genepool of the TBs? Witih all the inbreeding of the last century, I figured it was just getting expressed.

[Daydream Believer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horse_hugger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daydream Believer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nightsong:
That Arabian in the last post is awfully dark, wonder if he's been tested for the creme gene. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You read my mind. I'd want to see a DNA test on that one. He sure looks awfully red to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you look at his http://www.tiffanyranch.com/champions.html - you'll see lots of palominos and buckskins, though. He could just be a very dark palomino.

Interesting topic, I've always wondered the same thing... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It looks like all his colored offspring are from non arab mares. His purebred offspring do not show color interestingly. I still want to see that DNA test. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Jasmine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chiggins:
Weren't some of these, take the palomino, genes, from the early barb etc. genes which are in the genepool of the TBs? Witih all the inbreeding of the last century, I figured it was just getting expressed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO. The cream gene cannot pop out because of inbreeding. It is a dominant trait (well, incompletely dominant) and WILL SHOW UP if it is present. It does not hide, ever. If you breed two non-dilute horses, and get a dilute foal, somebody's horse jumped the fence. Inbreeding will not cause it to show up.

[Daydream Believer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chiggins:
Weren't some of these, take the palomino, genes, from the early barb etc. genes which are in the genepool of the TBs? Witih all the inbreeding of the last century, I figured it was just getting expressed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it would not surprise me if some of the early colonial spanish horses that were here when the Europeans arrived ended up in the TB gene pool at some point. Cream dilution is quite common with them. The spanish horses ranged from coast to coast but mainly in the Southern Colonies and were know as Chickasaw ponies for instance or Narrangesetts. The indians traded them to the early settlers. The spanish horses did figure into the development of quarter horses, appys, paints, saddlebreds, some speculate morgans, tennesee walkers, and a few others.

There is a cool article in my links page on my website about the history of the spanish horses in America. Here is an excerpt from the article written by Dr. Phil Sponenberg.

"At one time (about 1700) the purely Spanish horse occurred in an arc from the Carolinas to Florida, west through Tennessee, and then throughout all of the western mountains and Great Plains. In the northeast and central east the colonists were from northwest Europe, and horses from those areas were more common than the Colonial Spanish type. Even in these nonSpanish areas the Colonial Spanish Horse was highly valued and did contribute to the overall mix of American horses. Due to their wide geographic distribution as pure populations as well as their contribution to other crossbred types the Colonial Spanish Horses were the most common of all horses throughout North America at that time, and were widely used for riding as well as draft. In addition to being the common mount of the native tribes (some of whom measured wealth by the number of horses owned) and the white colonists, there were also immense herds of feral animals that descended from escaped or strayed animals of the owned herds."

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.frontiernet.net/%7ERanchoTamarisque/Sponenberg2003update.htm

[vineyridge]

Here is how he is described:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Bend Or was a big, growthy colt, like his sire and grandsire, Stockwell, but unlike them, his parts came together well enough for him to run well at age two. He had a golden chestnut coat, and a silvery mane and tail, unlike the red coat of the lop-eared Tadcaster, the horse he was averred to be after the Derby. He had a strong shoulder and fairly high withers, and powerful quarters that helped propel him to many of his close wins. "Bend Or," E. Somerville Tattersall later remarked, "was extraordinarily handsome and powerful."

His face featured a blotchy blaze that gave his unremarkable head a bit of character. He had white flecks in his coat, and black spots on his neck, shoulder, and quarters, like his damsire Thormanby, including one distinctive spot on his fore fetlock. Today, those spots are referred to as "Bend Or spots," and have been seen in many of his progeny, up to the present. Their appearance in Bend Or's pedigree can be traced at least as far back as Pantaloon (1824); Bend Or's half-sister's great-grandson, The Tetrarch, displayed them in abundance in his grey coat. Alternatively, these markings could trace to the white and dark-spotted chestnut stallion Comus, who appears twice in the fifth generation of Doncaster's dam, Marigold. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's pretty clear that he had some funky coloring going on. And while I am a dolt, I doubt that coat coloration is as simple as a single pair of genes. It could require as many as three or four to produce a single color type that would eventually breed true. I know that is true in dogs (Dalmatians need at least three separate genes to produce their coat), and I don't see why it wouldn't be true in horses. It might be that you don't have a palomino unless the cr gene is also combined with something else like the sabino gene or whatever gene is required for a flaxen mane and tail or a rabicano gene. If that's the case, then the expression in coat coloration would be pretty random until people started breeding to stabilize it.

This is pure speculation, mind you, but I do know how coat color works in Dalmatians.

[Alagirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daydream Believer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chiggins:
Weren't some of these, take the palomino, genes, from the early barb etc. genes which are in the genepool of the TBs? Witih all the inbreeding of the last century, I figured it was just getting expressed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it would not surprise me if some of the early colonial spanish horses that were here when the Europeans arrived ended up in the TB gene pool at some point. Cream dilution is quite common with them. The spanish horses ranged from coast to coast but mainly in the Southern Colonies and were know as Chickasaw ponies for instance or Narrangesetts. The indians traded them to the early settlers. The spanish horses did figure into the development of quarter horses, appys, paints, saddlebreds, some speculate morgans, tennesee walkers, and a few others.

There is a cool article in my links page on my website about the history of the spanish horses in America. Here is an excerpt from the article written by Dr. Phil Sponenberg.

"At one time (about 1700) the purely Spanish horse occurred in an arc from the Carolinas to Florida, west through Tennessee, and then throughout all of the western mountains and Great Plains. In the northeast and central east the colonists were from northwest Europe, and horses from those areas were more common than the Colonial Spanish type. Even in these nonSpanish areas the Colonial Spanish Horse was highly valued and did contribute to the overall mix of American horses. Due to their wide geographic distribution as pure populations as well as their contribution to other crossbred types the Colonial Spanish Horses were the most common of all horses throughout North America at that time, and were widely used for riding as well as draft. In addition to being the common mount of the native tribes (some of whom measured wealth by the number of horses owned) and the white colonists, there were also immense herds of feral animals that descended from escaped or strayed animals of the owned herds."

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.frontiernet.net/%7ERanchoTamarisque/Sponenberg2003update.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


And since the Spanish horses have a very strong influence of *Arabic* blood, namely the Barb horses from the other side of the Street of Gibraltar, we are right back to square one http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[darkmoonlady]

well I have just about exhausted the idea that the dilute gene "hid" under horses mislabled. I have looked at the pedigrees and found Bend Or is a common ancestor, so if he had some sort of mutation that brought out the dilute thats it. However in doing all this research, I am still left to believe that these recent palominos, Glitter Please and Milkie, had grand dams or grand sires on each of thier mare sides who weren't who they are listed as. The breeders of Glitter Please no longer breed horses, I went to thier website and all they breed now is cattle, so no photographs of Lucky Two Bits, and I haven't seen photographs of Milkies dam either. I just don't think that that many horses were mislabled. In going through photos the only one that stands out as looking "light bay" enough to be buckskin is a horse named Isenglass, but hes again way back there in the pedigrees. So I guess the mystery continues...lol

[sophab]

You know, I have been following this thread with interest, and trying to formulate a coherent thought before I posted (not always an easy task for poor Sophab) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Funny thing is that AuntieSha and I had this very same discussion on a rather long drive one day. It is hard to say.
I think what we bascially came up with is that the creme gene can "hide" (as in it is there, but you just don't see the dilution) on a black horse, because as stated before, creme only dilutes red. A black horse with a creme gene just looks like a black horse.
I have also seen more than one buckskin who I would have sworn was a black bay. This also makes sense because if their bay gene allows more expression of black hair as a black bay's would, the only place you would see the dilution might be on the muzzle or the flanks, or other places where there is more brown/red than black hair, and this dilution is not as noticable. For what it's worth, the buckskins I am thinking of were sired by cremellos, so they must have the creme gene.
Unfortunately, there is no way to tell if the historical "chestnuts with flaxen mane and tail" are palominos, because first, they were registered as chestnut, and second, back then they were undesirable as palominos.
I think the thing about Milkie is that he came around at just the right time, when the general population was accepting of TB's as sporthorses, and starting to fall in love with dilutes. Prior to him there may have been many that we just didn't know about because they weren't what was being looked for.
I think the fact that Glitter Please popped up in the 80's, not of the Milkie line is a statement that this color did exist in the TB breed, we just didn't know it, or didn't acknowledge it. I think there is also a Palomino TB in Japan who is not of the Milkie lines, although I can't say for sure. There is a pic of him on the True Colors website somewhere (I know I saw the link in Off Course).
I don't know. I love TB's. I love Palominos. Hopefully I'll get to have a Paly TB someday... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[aurum]

Sometimes I really ask myself why am I taking the time to write a long dissertation about "how did the dilution gene hide in the TBs" and apparently nobody has taken the time to read it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[AuntieSha]

Gwen, I think people read it... they are just concerned with the lack of photographic history. Just a classic case of "give me proof!" In a situation where that proof may not exist. There will always be doubters. Heck, my Pinto/dilute-QH breeding step-mother gave me a 15 minute dissertation on how dilute and sabino TB's DO NOT exist. And that it was laughable that people claimed that a broad blaze and tall socks equaled sabino. (She has not said a word about it since I sent the webpage links to Sato & get and Norsire's dilutes and Snowy/Snowman).

Sophab was just agreeing with you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif As I do, as well. I don't think it "skipped" any generations. But hid in those photographed ancestors as smokey-black. dark bay (lord knows there are a lot of those in the TB world), or a dilute with a grey gene. And it is possible if dilute was not accepted that people with a dilute may have chosen not to make their horse high-profile, hence no pictures showing them off.

However it happened, they are gorgeous, aren't they??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-Shannon

[aurum]

AuntiSha,

my message was not adressed to Sophab, but to several others that still asked the same questions after I had taken the time to explain why TBs have the dilution gene and how it can "hide". I think it should better be called a "semi-dominant" gene instead of dominant as it hides in black and can be very difficult to see on on black bay or dark bay.

I do not want to offend anyone but when I take the time to explain and see the questions again, then I think that what I write is not believed and believe me I have studied this more than 30 years now.

It is not funny to say there was a QH or TWH involved that jumped the fence as there were no QH or TWH at the time when Sylfou was born in France. And I do NOT believe in the mutation fairy tale. It is all about genetics and people just need to understand them.

[darkmoonlady]

My intention when I started the thread wasn't to offend anyone. I totally understand the genetics of the dilution gene, and I do know it can hide. I just have never seen it hide as well as it has in Thoroughbreds. I realize that with not registering horses as the correct color can add to that, I just wonder why I haven't seen as many examples out there. I would love to see your article aurum, I didn't know you had done research. I just find it all fascinating, and I love how beautiful dilute thoroughbreds can be. I also love a mystery, and in my case, that many generations without more "gold" just seemed not highly plausable. I also know anythings possible, just with the Bar Link line of Paints where a genetically single diluted horse can look phenotypically cremello. I hope I didn't step on anyones toes, I guess I am just overly curious..lol

[Norsire]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> There have been born two cremellos in Kentucky just recently out of two "black" horses <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gwen do you have photos of these two cremellos? What are their reg names? I would think, two cremellos showing up like that would be BIG news that many would know about it by now. Where they both full sibblings? Colt? Filly? Kinsella you live in KY and are up on the TB;s do you know about them or have any photos of them? This would be the perfect example of the hidden gene in two black appearing horses having a cremello or two pop out!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Palomino Leopard WB]

I actually believe that Nancy from Colorworld Ranch ownes one of these mares from Kentucky that is a cremello out of two believed to be black horses.
Anyone have any other information?
I think it would be GREAT if other dilute TB's were found available out there, it would help add to the small gene pool we already have.

[Amy]

Hmm if that is true wonder how long it will be before a FRAME palomino is born?

[aurum]

Amy, the filly that Norsire bred is in foal to Ellusive Quest and might well be the first to have a Palomino Frame Overo TB baby.

[Norsire]

Quote by PLW
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I actually believe that Nancy from Colorworld Ranch ownes one of these mares from Kentucky that is a cremello out of two believed to be black horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hummmm...I think she only owns one palomino filly now and that is the 2004 RR filly, but she is not cremello or from KY.

Gwen, you did not answer above questions...do you have any photos of the one's in KY or have you just heard about them from someone????? They would be the perfect example of what you have been talking about with the hidden gene in blacks. I would think there would be some photos around if the two in KY do exist!!!

[aurum]

Bridget, I was asked to not tell who owns one of these cremello fillies, but it now is already disclosed. Kelly has a picture, she can possibly post it. The Palomino filly is sold.

The same story of poping up Palomino happened a century ago to Count Kinsky in Czechoslowakia. He bred his chestnut TB mare to a dark TB stallion and the mare had a Palomino foal. The Czech JC refused to enter that foal into the studbooks and said he cheated on the sire. He went totally nuts over this and was so angry that he opened his own studbook from this date and invented the Great Pardubice Steeplechase. These horses were later influenced with WBs and are know today as Equus Kinsky.

Years and years the diluted horses were NOT detected when bay or black were the popular colors of horses and chestnut was rare so the Palominos were even more rare and thought to be flaxen chestnuts like Haflingers for example. Haflingers are often called the Palominos of Tirol, even not being diluted, just flaxen chestnuts. As I said, about 30 years ago the Associations in Germany just started to understand that a Palomino is not a light chestnut but a dilute chestnut. Isabella was thought to be a lighter version of the chestnut so no wonder they were called light chestnut, golden chestnut, isabella (when they had the dapples) and so on. Buckskins were not detected at all. There were just different shades of bay from very light creamy "bay" to the dark REAL bay.

The famous Holsteiner influencing TB stallion Marlon was a dark buckskin but nobody knew it until I told them that it is impossible that he produced two Palomino foals out of ONE chestnut mare. The chestnut is a color not wanted into the Holsteiner breed and so there are a handful only and one mare was bred to Marlon and had two Palomino foals. One of them being the mount of Graf Breido zu Rantzau from the Holsteiner Verband. Ma Soleil was a very important jumper mare that later was sold to Italy. Today there are still many light bay Holsteiners or golden touched Holsteiners, but since they are all bay nobody cares to test them. I am sure there are still some that are buckskin but nobody knows it. The stallion I sold to California, CA Chablis, is a very very dark buckskin Oldenburg stallion but even he has DARK BAY in his papers.

[Alagirl]

This discussion sparked my interest, so I looked up the pedigree of a chestnut TB with a light colored mane...

When I checked further down the lines of *Noble Prince*'s ancestors, I found it interesting that almost all chestnuts traced back to Bend Or...and others with *Gold* in their names...going back to above mentioned *Yellow Barb*...

[poltroon]

Sure, the gene can hide. Right out there in plain sight, where the humans looking at it refuse to acknowledge it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Remember that these dilute horses were highly stigmatized. They weren't in fashion. And then when they didn't have DNA testing, showing such a horse would make your breeding program suspect.

Likely a lot of those obvious horses were either hidden on the farm or destroyed.

As for where it came from, in addition to the Akhal-Teke, you also had mares in Britain of all sorts of local heritage. There is creme in the Welsh and Connemara just off the top of my head.

They've found grey and creme in Morgans also; not long ago we were all sure those genes were dead in that gene pool also.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This gene CANNOT come from a grey parent, unless the grey parent also has the cream gene. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grey is rather better at hiding colors (dilute or not) than most other colors. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Heck, TB breeders can't even tell gray from roan. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Norsire]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Heck, TB breeders can't even tell gray from roan. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, it is not us breeders, but the Jockey Club that refuses to take a genetics class and register them the proper color! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[akrogirl]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by darkmoonlady:
well I have just about exhausted the idea that the dilute gene "hid" under horses mislabled. I have looked at the pedigrees and found Bend Or is a common ancestor, so if he had some sort of mutation that brought out the dilute thats it. /QUOTE]

Well, I guess it will be interesting to see what happens if I ever breed my FG yearling. Her dam traces back to Bend Or, or a very close relative, on just about every line of her pedigree. Also, even though my filly is greying out from chestnut, her mane and tail are definitely more flaxen than red. She may also be sabino. However, I don't think I will hold my breath for color, lol.

I also asked a new border at our barn today about her QH. She said it was a buckskin - it is almost a silvery grullo shade so I wasn't 100% sure, especially as I had previously only seen it from a distance. She then went on to say that the parents were a chestnut and a bay! So I guess dilutes are not always recognised in other breeds either.

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So I guess dilutes are not always recognised in other breeds either. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is definitely true. A friend of mine keeps track of color genetics and breeds as a fairly serious hobby. She's done a lot of studbook research and has found all sorts of interesting individuals. Like, believe it or not, crop out pinto markings on a Fjord (I forget if from the frame or splash gene). Now that it's fashionable to look for them and we can test interesting individuals, our understanding of what is possible has really changed over the past 10 years.

[Kinsella]

You probably don't want my opinion of where they came from (and being that this is a PG board I KNOW the mods don't want it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). I have heard nothing of the two that were supposedly born in KY, and can't research without a bit more info as to sire, dam, or heck, farm!! Besides, KY isn't exactly a small state - and then there's the fact that I pretty much want nothing to do with anything that even remotely resembles a dilute/sabino/overo/whatever TB at this point. Really, you guys can have them!!

(Not that I am bitter or anything... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif)

[CenterlineFarm]

I think we all really know where these dilute genes have come from.

It is probably safe to say that with genetic testing, no 'new' palominos/cremellos will suddenly pop up and 'reveal' themselves out of any lines other than those carrying the gene right now - I guess that would be Milkie and Glitter Please.

But in my opinion it doesn't really matter. They can be lovely to look at, some of them are really quality horses, and since we are all breeding towards a 'type' rather than a closed breed, the end result is a good sport horse - whatever it's origins.

If a horse is a good horse, then the color is just a bonus. I for one would love to see more coloured warmbloods around. (I mean other than pintos). I adore palominos and I am seriously considering breeding one of my best WB mares to a Tb cremello next year - whatever its origins - just because I think it will be a nice horse, and the color will make me smile....

[Sally May]

A friend sent me here because the site never works on her computer. Better late than never? You decide, LOL. I am soooo happy to see that Gwen showed up here to correct all the wild misconceptions and wrong ideas! Incredible! Anyway, my info came from some folks who have been studying TBs, especially unusual colors, and color genetics in general, for many years. A few points:
A) the Jockey Club DID blood-test Milkie and DID satisfy themselves that he was the foal of his stated parents, before they registered him.
B) the Cream gene CAN hide for MANY generations under black and seal brown colors, and this is NOT surprising in the least.
C) the Cream gene WAS present in the breed right from the VERY START! This is proven beyond any shadow of a doubt. Descriptions and paintings clearly show buckskins and palominos, and there are over 50 horses in the first studbook registered as 'dun' (buckskins are called dun in England).
D) Milkie is FAR from the "only one". Other palomino/buckskins include Sylfou in France, Tosho Falco in Japan, and Lucky Two Bits in the USA, none of which are closely related. The gene is obviously more widespread than anyone thought.
E) there is absolutely NO WAY anyone could possibly know how many palominos/buckskins there have been over the years since they are just registered as 'chestnut' and 'bay', or, at best, 'light chestnut' (i.e. Milkie) and 'light bay' (i.e. Lucky Two Bits, a buckskin). The Jockey Club doesn't even allow the use of 'light' as part of the color nowadays. Buckskins are bay, as far as they are concerned, and palominos are chestnut. Without a photo you would never know. And if you think people would notice, think again! A son of Milkie, a light palomino, raced 7 times without any particular success and without ever a comment in the racing press.

[Norsire]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> posted Nov. 10, 2004 01:15 AM By Centerlinefarm
I think we all really know where these dilute genes have come from.

It is probably safe to say that with genetic testing, no 'new' palominos/cremellos will suddenly pop up and 'reveal' themselves out of any lines other than those carrying the gene right now - I guess that would be Milkie and Glitter Please.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now according to Gwen there are two new cremello fillies born in KY just recently out of two black horses!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif So, if this is happening now in the age of the Internet and no one has seen photos of them yet, then think of how many could have been born say back in the 60s when Milkie came along... alot have said possibly they were hidden thinking people would doubt their breeding program, just as you are doubting there are any "new" cremello or palominos other than the Milkie and Glitter Please line...well apparently there are two in KY now!!! Of course a photo of them would be nice and even a pedigree to compare to the current palomino and cremello lines.

[sagebrush]

I am not trying to be rude, but does everybody on the breeding forum only concentrate on TB's and Warmbloods? QH breeders have known for years that it is possible for the cream gene to be hidden in black horses.
I remember my grandfather who was not a very educated man breeding his black stud to palamino mares (with ermine spots) and being quite sure he would get a black or palamino foal. I was quite young but I believe these were his reasons.

[Daydream Believer]

We don't sagebrush..but we non WB and non TB folks are a bit outnumbered... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Jasmine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sagebrush:
I am not trying to be rude, but does everybody on the breeding forum only concentrate on TB's and Warmbloods? QH breeders have known for years that it is possible for the cream gene to be hidden in black horses.
I remember my grandfather who was not a very educated man breeding his black stud to palamino mares (with ermine spots) and being quite sure he would get a black or palamino foal. I was quite young but I believe these were his reasons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he's breeding black to palomino, then the baby would have gotten the cream gene from the palomino mare. If his stud was a smokey black (cream gene on black) then he should have gotten cremellos/perlinos/smokey creams as well as the palomino foals.

Smokey black is VERY similar to black. It is very difficult to tell just by looking at a horse if it is black or smokey black.

[Amy]

Hey Gwen what palomino is sold? I was not aware of any palomino fillies for sale....

The two dark horses that produced the cremellos in Ky are not from new lines... that is my understanding.

[nightsong]

I imagine the Jockey Club, if not prodded in the right direction by other countries, would prefer to call the cremellos "REALLY light chestnuts"

[aurum]

Amy, the cute Palomino filly bred by Bridget is sold. And I was told the two black horses that produced the cremello were not of the Glitter Please and Milkie line. So that would open another gene pool hopefully.

[Amy]

Gwen I guess we will have to wait and see some pedigree info... I was told they were from Milkie lines but rather far back.


edited to say... I was aware of that filly. I thought there was another filly out there somewhere.

[CenterlineFarm]

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that the dilute gene can be unnoticed in a brown horse. Or even that for a generation or two of breeding ONLY brown horses it might very possibly go unnoticed. (Unlikely but possible - this is not a subtle gene we are talking about here)

I think the problem lies in the fact that despite the fact that it is a dominant gene, and the fact that there have been hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of Tbs being bred and born shown and raced within the last 20 years, there are ONLY 2 original horses in the United States that show the gene. And ALL current colored horses seem to derive from them.

Not to mention the fact that if all these 'hidden' dilute brown horses had been bred together, there has not been a single double dilute smokey brown TB born (which I understand is a whiteish color with red mane and tail), which would make it a smokey cream...right? And homozygous so everything IT throws would have color. And that could hardly go unnoticed.

Again, since I am breeding for sport, and the conformation, movement, and temperament is more important to me than anything else, the 'purity' of the pedigree doesn't really bother me that much - especially since it was most likely several generations back and a long time ago. Besides, I have found a nice cremello Tb to breed my Hannoverian mare to next year - and I don't really care what happened 5 generations ago.

But I also don't see any point in denying that there was probably some monkeying with the paperwork going on at one point. But I can also see how people who are very invested in this have a difficult line to walk on. It is probably best just to leave the whole thing alone and just move forward.

[poltroon]

But Centerline: what possible incentive was there to introduce the creme gene nefariously?

You're not going to get more money for a palomino racehorse, especially if people are doubting its parentage.

I think we'll see more cropouts. If you can find palomino Morgans (and there's now a whole group of breeders devoted to those), and overo TBs, I think it's very easy to believe that there are mares out there who never left the farm that were genetically buckskin or palomino.

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you can find palomino Morgans (and there's now a whole group of breeders devoted to those), <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have one lady with a cute as a button chestnut Morgan dressage mare that is breeding to Guaranteed Gold next year because she said the palomino Morgan crosses are SO hot right now!

I really think the only breed registries that perhaps wont embrace the dilute colours will be ones like the Friesans, Cleveland Bays and other ultra conservative ones where anything other than the cast-in-stone breed standard would be frowned upon

:Spot:

[Sally May]

Centerline, that is exactly the point -- they absolutely DO and DID go unnoticed! There could have been thousands of them out there -- we would never know. They are registered as chestnut and bay, and nobody ever sees them if they don't race. Even if they do race, or go through a yearling sale, they have attracted no comment. Racehorse breeders just simply don't give a hoot about what color a horse is. That's where your mistake lies -- in saying there are "only two" lines showing the color. We have NO idea how many there might be. Palominos have raced, at least one buckskin has gone through the Keeneland yearling sale, and nobody ever said a thing about it. The only ones that make the news are the ones that somebody made a fuss over - like Milkie. His owner wanted to tell the world that he owned the "first palomino Thoroughbred" (or "the only" one). Otherwise he would have gone unnoticed, just like all the others. Glitter Please never raced, but he was a very active show horse - but did anyone ever say anything about him being a "rare palomino TB"? Nope - never - not till he went to stud at age 15. Some of his dilute half-siblings raced - did they ever attract a comment? Nope. It's only now, with the current craze for unusual colors of all kinds, and the wonders of the internet that allow instant communication with large numbers of people, that these horses are even being noticed at all. Heck, there's a buckskin racing right now, and not one TB newsmagazine or anyone has ever said a thing about her color!

There were likely never large enough numbers of dilutes out there that they would end up being bred to each other, but even if they were, if a double-dilute resulted, the breeder probably took it out behind the barn and shot it, thinking it was some sort of "albino" and defective. (Sad to say, it's only in very recent years that double-dilutes have been recognized as the genetic gold mines they really are.) That's why the first known cremello, Guaranteed Gold, didn't come along until 1998. There may have been others, but we would certainly never know. Photos just don't exist of horses that aren't famous, unfortunately.

[aurum]

Sally May,
you are the one that got the whole matter put in the best words one can do! Thank you!

[Fred]

We have all talked about inbreeding on other threads, and the opinion has always been that inbreeding is a good thing, providing the individual that you are inbreeding to is exceptional, ie Nasrullah etc.
However, one of the concerns that I have had about the palomino TBs is the degree of inbreeding (due to the scarcity/rarity of the individuals) -and that "Milkie" is being inbred to quite closely. Other than his colour, what excellent characteristics did Milkie possess that would make him a desirable Sport Horse sire? This foot problem - a club foot?- of his referred to on Gold Hope Farm's site - was this a genetic thing?
I am not trying to stir up anything, just asking a question that has been on my mind for some time. How concerned are the coloured TB breeders about the degree of inbreeding and to this particular horse?

[Spot]

Fred - I think you took the alleged "foot problem" totally out of context.

Here is an excerpt from the actual article:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Jim Walsh, a Thoroughbred breeder and the owner of Deer Lodge, came over to the ranch to take a look. Every Deer Lodge foal is marked with a distinctively shaped hoof. Milkie had that hoof. Finally, the papers arrived, but as mentioned, the color was given as light chestnut. The name, Milkie, was approved as well.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember that Royal Chocolate threw a "distinctive shaped foot" as well and my Royal Chocolate mare had EXACTLY that same foot. It wasnt a club foot, her right foot just looked and was shaped differently than the other was.

There was also all of the controversy surrounding Glitter Please and his alleged "club foot" that swirled around for years, until his former owner - Gigi Nutter - came on the COTH board and cleared up THAT particular misconception! She was hounded by someone that wanted to buy him - day in and day out - as a stallion prospect, and finally - off the cuff and meant to drive them away, she said that "you dont want him for a stallion prospect - he has a club foot" and thats how that particular rumor started, with no basis in fact.

I do have to say that as far as feet go, my LooksPalominoToMe and Golden Angel mare had/have feet like flint. The blacksmith literally could NOT pare their feet unless he was using a new knife - they were that hard!

Guaranteed Gold schooled and competed an entire season - BAREFOOT - over good footing and not so good footing, in one of the driest summers we had in years. He galloped cross country over rock hard ground with no shoes on, and he wasnt lame, his feet didnt chip and shoes were never a necessity for him. So - in the 2 palominos / 1 cremello that I personally know first hand about, superb feet are among their BEST attributes!

So - I think you have misunderstood the foot comment and no - the Milkie line is NOT producing club footed horses! Nor is the Glitter Please line! As the article stated - EVERY Deer Lodge foal (not 50% of them or 90% of them - but EVERY Deer Lodge foal) has this distinctively shaped foot, so I cant see for a moment that every single Deer Lodge foal produced was club footed!

:Spot:

[TKR]

Ok, I breed Thoroughbreds but not for color. However, I do love to research bloodlines and after browsing through a Fasig-Tipton sale catalog last night, I saw a mare listed by Gilded Time. He is one of those "chestnuts" with flaxen mane and tail and alot of white. So, I pulled up his pedigree and then looked at Milkie and Glitter Please. I noticed that they all have (ok, it's back there) -- the Doncaster-Rouge Rose (Bend Or) bloodline. I couldn't find a picture of Rouge Rose. I was also wondering about the Black Toney bloodline -- could it have been smokey blacks? Guess we'll never know. Also, I saw way back a picture of Mercury (foaled in 1787) -- sure looks palomino to me! Interesting, I suppose.

PSG

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I was also wondering about the Black Toney bloodline -- could it have been smokey blacks? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who knows, is right, but every genetic book and data that I have read has stated that the dilute gene cannot "hide" for generations. Its not like the sabino gene which DOES hide and then seemingly pops up out of nowhere.

If the dilute gene COULD hide through successive generations, then Sea Apollo, the chestnut son of Gold Apollo (palomino) should be able to sire palomino and buckskin offspring from chestnut and bay mares and we all know that is NOT the case.

So - even if Black Toney HAD been a smokey black, unless he sired successive smoky blacks through the generations that no one recognized as such (thought that they were just dark bay / browns) then logic and scientific facts dictate that the dilute gene could not continue on unnoticed, skipping generation to generation willy nilly ...

:Spot:

[aurum]

Spot,
if the dark bays (buckskins) have only been bred to bays or blacks it can well "hide" for years and generations as only with a chestnut involved and then also only at 50% the dilution would be obviously visible to everyone and even then it needs someone to say "oh that is a Palomino" but what if this someone says "oh what a nice flaxen chestnut!"

I think it could "hide" as the hiding is not a realy hiding it is just people not being knowledgeable as they are today. We should all just from NOW ON work on the correct data base to have it documented for the generations to come.

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> posted Nov. 11, 2004 10:42 AM
Spot,
if the dark bays (buckskins) have only been bred to bays or blacks it can well "hide" for years and generations as only with a chestnut involved and then also only at 50% the dilution would be obviously visible to everyone
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

okay - that I DO agree with. We had a really neat dark dark buckskin AQHA gelding in our barn that 99% of the people thought was a golden shimmery coloured bay horse

When I was doing the genetic profiling for buskskins on my web site I came across some pretty neat, but non conventional looking buckskins as well, that probably MOST people would not even realize they WERE buckskins! Same with the palomino's - some were pretty unsual looking and not what most people expect to see when they think "palomino"

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/Colour_Genetics_101.html

Here is one picture of Blacksaddle Starbuck.

He is a VERY unusually coloured dark, dappled buckskin Morgan stallion. He is a confirmed buckskin stallion, having produced a perlino (double bay dilute gene) foal.

But to most people, Im sure they would call him a "bay"

:Spot:

[Amy]

A few years back I saw a bay tb mare that was so light she could have been a buckskin. If I knew then what I know now I might have bought her and pulled some hair!

[Spot]

Amy - funny you should say that

A few years ago there was a "bay" TB mare for sale in MI that I had enquired about and they sent me some pictures of her on the flat and jumping and she was a buckskin - for 100% sure.
Before I could get into any details about her registered name and bloodlines, she was sold - unfortunately and they never answered any more emails after that.

She was pretty special looking as well - I wonder where she is now and if someone realized that she WAS a buckskin or just thought that she was a light bay

:Spot:

[Kinsella]

Just wanted to pipe in here in regards to one of the photos on Spot's link. There is a horse that appears to be a "chocolate palomino" Rocky Mountain stallion. That color IS NOT palomino. It is a totally different gene and color and the people that breed RM's DO NOT breed those horses to horses with the dilute gene because it messes up the color. (Just got a lesson in RM breeding from a local breeder that the farm bought a palomino trail horse from - palominos & buckskins are generally not used as breeding stock...)

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion...

[Spot]

Kinsella - interesting. That picture and data came off the breeders site and they have him advertised as a chocolate palomino!

Could it be that this was a mutant breeder http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif that didnt CARE what the breed standard was, and just wanted to breed what they wanted to breed???

He is awfully neat looking though ...

:Spot:

[Daydream Believer]

I agree...those are silver dilutes not cream dilutes. A silver is often mistaken for a chestnut or a "chocolate" palomino.

[Spot]

okaaayyy ...

Dont want to be the one to spread misinformation! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

I will take down the Rocky Mountain - whatever colour he may be!

:Spot:

[Quinn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fred:
We have all talked about inbreeding on other threads, and the opinion has always been that inbreeding is a good thing, providing the individual that you are inbreeding to is exceptional, ie Nasrullah etc.
However, one of the concerns that I have had about the palomino TBs is the degree of inbreeding (due to the scarcity/rarity of the individuals) -and that "Milkie" is being inbred to quite closely. Other than his colour, what excellent characteristics did Milkie possess that would make him a desirable Sport Horse sire? This foot problem - a club foot?- of his referred to on Gold Hope Farm's site - was this a genetic thing?
I am not trying to stir up anything, just asking a question that has been on my mind for some time. How concerned are the coloured TB breeders about the degree of inbreeding and to this particular horse? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Spot, I am quite frankly surprised at your defensive reaction to what seems to me to be an honest and perfectly legitimate question about inbreeding. This is a frequently discussed topic on this board and I too am interested in knowing the answer or at least your opinion.

As we all know the reason behind inbreeding is to intensify the probability of inheriting certain &lt;good&gt; characteristics and strengths. For this reason, it's been desirable to inbreed to certain blood lines. Since this individual is the horse being inbred to, it would be informative and responsible to know more about him. In other words, beyond his colour, his strengths as a sport horse progenitor....whether he is part Quarter horse or not? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[poltroon]

Just to comment more on the willful blindness...

For years I saw Gold Apollo advertised in the PH stallion issue, in glorious full color, with the notation "chestnut", and I thought, "Yup, those pale chestnuts sure can look palomino." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Because, as I had been told repeatedly, everyone knew that there wasn't the creme gene in Thoroughbreds. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Hi Spot, I am quite frankly surprised at your defensive reaction to what seems to me to be an honest and perfectly legitimate question about inbreeding. This is a frequently discussed topic on this board and I too am interested in knowing the answer or at least your opinion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you'll notice Quinn - I didnt answer any part of the inbreeding question. Simply the erroneous statement about "feet"

The REASON I didnt answer the inbreeding portion was simply because I did not have the time to do so in the depth that it required, but if you insist - here goes ...

Inbreeding or linebreeding can work or it can fail, depending on how judiciously it is done. The same as outcrossing.
I can easily illustrate some horrifically inbred cases as easily as I could give you a horrific outcross scenario. Outcrossing is no guarantee of success any more than line breeding is any guarantee of failure ...

As far as inbreeding / linbreeding goes - lets look at some success stories, shall we? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Icy Paws - 2S x 4D to Nearco
Intermediate, Open and A/O Jumper in the USA

Intrepid - 3S x 4D to BlenheimII
- 2S x 3D to Mahmoud
- 3S x 4D to Mah Mahal
Member of the CET (all of this inbreeding doesnt seem to have hurt him too much! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Lyrical Lou - 4S x 4S x 4D to Bull Dog
2nd in the American Invitational

Number One Spy - 4S x 4D to BlenheimII
Open and USET Jumper

Prime Time - 4S x 4D to Sir GallahadIII
Open Jumper in the USA

Singapore - 3S x 4D to Beau Pere
Open Jumper in the USA

Sloopy - 4S x 4D to Sir GallahadIII
Member of USET

Steelmaster - 4S x 4D to Sir GallahadIII
CET Jumper ridden by Jimmy Day

The Crimson Tide - 3S x 4D to Nearco
- 3S x 4D to Mumtaz Begum
Competed with both the USET and the CET

The Flying Nun - 3S x 4D to Sir GallahadIII
- 3D x 4S to Teddy
CET Jumper ridden by Bo Mearns

Trick Track - 3S x 4D to Man O War
Fabulous USET and CET jumper ridden by Kathy Kusner and Edie Craddock

Volunteer - 4S x 4D to Nearco
CET Jumper

War Lord - 4S x 4D to Sir GallahadIII
- 4S x 4D to Man O War
Open Jumper in the USA

Better and Better - 3S x 3D to Nasrullah
4S x 4D to Nearco
USET 3 day eventing

Academy Award - 2S x 3D to Bonne Nuit
- 3S x 4D to Royal Canopy
- 3S x 4D to Bonne Cause
A/O and Open Working Hunter Champion

Alicante - 3D x 4S to Bull Dog
Junior and A/O Working Hunter Champion

Always Formal - 4S x 4D x 4D to Sir GallahadIII
AHSA A/O Working Hunter Champion

I could go on and on ... Obviously the inbreeding / linbreeding has not hurt the performance of these hunter, jumper, event and steeplchase champions from the past (and I havent even GONE into race horses and their inbreeding / linebreeding!). Lea's Boots - Champion Hunter - another one that is 3S x 3D to Bull Dog, the successful steeplechaser Cafe Prince that is 3S x 4D to Nasrullah or the Champion Steeplechaser - Shipboard - that is 2S x 3D to Man O War, etc, etc, etc

Im sure if I took another 2 hours http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I could get you a ton more examples.

I think, in closing, in order to successfully breed ANY stallion and mare together you need to examine what each one of them brings to the table and where each one of them needs some help and decide if that is the best mating for them.

With my Puchi Trap mare, she needed help in behind. That is her weakest conformational area. I cautiously crossed my fingers that Guaranteed Gold would be STRONG enough in behind to offset her weakness and was 100% pleased with the result. He did everything that I wanted him to do and the Faux Finish filly is virtually perfect from front to back. Yes - the buckskin colour is WONDERFUL - no doubt about it - but so is the flawless conformation and the fabulous movement that resulted as well!

Nothing is perfect. No system is perfect. All you can do is your research and make the best cross you can and hope for the best results. Isnt that what we ALL hope to do?!

:Spot:

[Robby Johnson]

Spot,

Since Tiamo has the lovely golden hue on his coat, can I call him a "Smoky Black?" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Robby

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Since Tiamo has the lovely golden hue on his coat, can I call him a "Smoky Black?"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well now - you JUST MIGHT get away with it, until someone realizes that he just has a great tan! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and is sporting the "beach boy" look!

:Spot:

[Kinsella]

I just can't stay away...

I agree with Spot that LINEBREEDING can be and 98% of the time is a good thing. And she gave many examples of LINEbreeding. Now, inbreeding is a different story. When your pedigree notes read like this:

Doodlebug - 1S x 2D to Doodle, 2D x 2S to Bug

that translates to this: Doodlebug is sired bu Doodle, and out of a mare sired by Doodle, making him sire and grandsire. To compound that, Doodle is out of Bug, and the dam of Doodlebug is ALSO out of Bug. Which means that not only was Doodle bred to his dam, he was bred to THAT offspring to get Doodlebug.

When you have serious INbreeding there is a very high likelyhood of genetic/personality/conformation problems. The examples Spot gave were mostly of breeding distant cousins, not direct siblings or direct relatives, which the (obviously fake) example I gave would be.

I agree with Fred in that there is an issue with the inbreeding of these Milkie line horses. And anyone looking at buying one or breeding to one needs to do their homework.

I really am going away this time - I swear!

[Spot]

Welcome back Kinsella! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Now - after pulling up every one of the palomino and cremello Milkie line bred horses that I can think of, I cannot find one - not one single one - that is 1 x 2 or 2 x 1 or even 2 x 2.

So - in the examples I gave above that you commented on, there are several 2S x 3D or 3S x 2D crosses - all succesful show and race horses and you advised that these were successful LINEBREEDING examples. That in 98% of the cases - LINEBREEDING was a good thing. Right?

Yes - there are some 2 x 3 and 3 x 2 crosses in the Milkie line bred mares and stallions - LINEBREEDING - right? And once these horses are bred to other mares and stallions the resultant foals will then be 3 x 4 or 4 x 3 on the sire or the dam side only (unless someone breeds them to another Milkie line sire or dam).

I am wracking my brain trying to think of even ONE Milkie line bred horse that was as close as the 1st and 2nd or 2x2 - I cant think of any. So - as far as I have been able to tell - there are no Milkie line INBRED horses out there, unless someone else can correct me on this. Just LINEBRED ones which are, in 98% of the cases, a GOOD thing.

Now - talking about INBREEDING - my Higate Beau Affair mare WAS inbred - 2S x 2D to Beaudalaire. Lovely mare, beautiful mover and jumper, well put together and she did have several nice foals before I got her, but I did wonder at the logic of her bloodlines and why someone did what they did with her.

THAT is an inbred horse ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Actually -one of the more interesting INBRED horses is a Quarter Horse stallion named Martins Cold Deck
He is 1D x 2S to Ram Cat and (get this!) 3D x 4D x 4S x 5S to Big Nance!
Either Big Nance was one HELLUVA mare or there was a shortage of mares around at the time they were breeding!

or - take the example of the Quarter Horse stallion - Poco Bueno
He is:
3S x 3D to Little Joe
4S x 4S x 4D x 5S to Traveler
4D x 5S to Big Jim
5S x 5S x 5D x 5D to Sykes Rondo

Would he be considered INbred or LINEbred???

Now - those crazy Arab breeders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - they are right up there in INbreeding!

Take Colour of Passion:

2S x 2D to Thee Desperado
3S x 3D to The Minstril
3S x 3D to Ak Amiri Asmarr
4S x 4D x 5S x 5D x 5D to Morific
3D x 5S x 5D to Shaikh al Badi
5S x 5D x 5D to Nazeer
5D x 5D to Maisa

Now THAT I do not understand ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

:Spot:

[Flying Hearts]

Someone mentioned not being able to find a pic of Bend Or's dam Rouge Rose - here ya go:

http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/BendOr.html#RougeRose

Also, isn't the QH Impressive the one who started the HYPP thing, or am I mistaken? If he is though, maybe it's caused by his line / inbreeding....

[sophab]

Yep, QH Impressive (not to be confused with TB Impressive who did exist) is the sire they have traced HYPP to, I think it is only horses that are Impressive inbred. There is also a problem with Poco Bueno inbreeding (I think it was him-if it wasn't, I'm sorry Poco Bueno), a skin condition of some sort.
I think that with Milkie, the proof was in the pudding. He was a successful sporthorse sire because...well, have you looked at him? Put him in a plain brown wrapper and he is still a really nice looking horse. He's got one of the most beautiful toplines I have ever seen on a TB...and I am a neck fanatic.
Same goes for Glitter Please. Gotta give a little respect to a TB who could compete at FEI level Dressage. That takes more than good looks and a shiny golden coat.
Good and bad to both lines? Yah, probably, no horse (with the exception of my sweet little Sophie http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) is perfect. However, are they stallions who had more to offer the breed than color? I think so.
I think that a fundamental line has been drawn here. 50 years ago, before TB's gained immense popularity in the sporthorse world, they were racehorses. As such, color was not what they were bred for. They were bred to race, and if they didn't make it, they were tossed aside. I believe that there were horses who made it to the track who were dilute, but the general population didn't notice because they didn't care.
I think it is pretty obvious that to the sporthorse world, color is more important than it is in the racehorse world. Heck, for some of us, like it or not, it's a way of life. I think you put the TB in the show ring, and yah, fancy color is going to make a difference.
Hypothetically speaking, you have two horses. Conformationally, they are identical. They go in the show ring and post identical rounds or rides or whatever your sport is. One of them is plain something...bay, chestnut, whatever. The other is a Palomino with 4 whites and a blaze. Who do you think you are drawn to more? Who will pin better? I'm not knocking a plain horse, they are beautiful in their own way...oh, you get what I mean.
I think that when the TB transitioned from racehorse to sporthorse, color became important, and thus it became noticed. I'm not just talking Palomino here. I don't own one of those S horses that we have discussed to death on this board, and I am not talking specifically about those either. Put a little chrome on a horse, and it just gives them a little kick-especially a nice shiny coppery chestnut. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
Take a look too far back in the generations of any horse, and there likely is something that is not that horse there, with very few exceptions. I guess, I just feel in this case, the non-TB was further back than Milkie or Glitter Please's parents.

[Lord Helpus]

In the TB bloodstock world the commonly agreed upon distinction between inbreeding and linebreeding is that 3 x 3 or less is inbreeding and anything farther away than that is linebreeding (i.e. 3 x 4, 4 x 3 or 4 x 4).

At least, in the 15 years I have been involved in the game, that is the distinction we have always used.

Nowadays, people are beginning to use 3 x 3 or 4 x 2 more and more if it is to such major stallions as Mr. P or ND, but only after much thought and with the right mares (who have the correct other balances to help overcome the inevitable problems associated with duplcating an ancestor so close up.)

[CenterlineFarm]

I was going to quit posting to this thread (and no doubt some of you wish I would http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but this comment drove me out of the bushes...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> if the dark bays (buckskins) have only been bred to bays or blacks it can well "hide" for years and generations as only with a chestnut involved and then also only at 50% the dilution would be obviously visible to everyone and even then it needs someone to say "oh that is a Palomino" but what if this someone says "oh what a nice flaxen chestnut!"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is just what I wrote about in a previous post. That has such a slim statistical chance of happening that it is ridiculous.
ONLY bred to blacks or bays..for many generations?????

ok, ok. Let's say this WAS the case. WHY aren't there any smokey cremes? Or perlinos? All fairly obvious colors. And let's say that people did take them out and shoot them (which I think is another ridiculous notion. If a horse is well bred enough it could have been born purple with orange spots and they wouldn't have cared. The shooting would have happened AFTER this purple horse proved it couldn't run.) then why was it such a controversial suprise and shock when Milkie made his entrance? Why did the jockey club have such a difficult time accepting him? Why did someone from as far as Florida in the 60's (before internet and chat groups) hear about this colt and be interested enough to come all they way to buy him and then ADVERTISE him as a Hunter sire - not a racehorse. I am certain he saw the potential goldmine (no pun intended!) in this horse as a sporthorse sire.
This is a DOMINANT gene, people!!! You cannot hide it! It doesn't stay hidden forever! Perhaps in the millions of TBs around us we can find A horse that really really LOOKS like a buckskin. Or has a gorgeous flaxen mane and tail. So what???

I think it is possible that perhaps Tootsie (Milkie's mom) isn't who she is supposed to be. And the same can probably be said for Lucky Two Bits (the mother of Glitter Please). Who knows.

I DO know that I am in the middle of a large hrose breeding area - mainly QH's like most of us are. So far they mainly do live breeding. A friend of mine has a loud pinto colt by a bay stallion with two small white socks that has never thrown pintos before and out of a plain brown mare - with not so much as a white sock. The stallion owner also has another stallion on the property that IS a pinto. The bay is registered as the sire but... Pinto is a dominant gene. Which stallion do you think is really the sire?

Or how about this one... another warmblood breeder that I know has a grey filly that is out of a chestnut mare and by a bay stallion - and this stallion stands at stud with several stallions, among them is a grey. She bred by AI. Had the foal inspected and registered - the bay is listed as the sire. Grey is a dominant gene. Now do you think that some 'miracle' happened or some 'mutation'? Of course not.

My point is that if it can happen that easily today with DNA testing, and more genetic knowledge, then why couldn't it have happened 20 or 35 years ago???

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> He's got one of the most beautiful toplines I have ever seen on a TB...and I am a neck fanatic <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course he has a better topline than any TB you have ever seen!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif QH's, Tennessee Walkers (especially) or Saddlebreds all have LOVELY toplines!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (just kidding) And I have to say that Glitter Please looks like a gorgeous Saddlebred cross to me - (which would also account for his size). He was a stunning boy.

I have seen the video of Guaranteed Gold and I have to say I think he has a lot to offer. He is the only offspring from the Milkie line (or any colored line) I have seen on video - so I cannot comment on any other coloured TB. Perhaps if he wasn't colored he would make a better gelding - who am I to judge? But he has a great temperament, is a cute mover, an eager, honest little jumper and looks like a really sweet, rideable horse. That is more than you can say about some stallions.

[TKR]

Thanks for posting the link to Rouge Rose's picture! Love that site -- haven't visited in awhile -- when I do I linger for hours, LOL.

Question for you color gurus -- I have a chestnut (TB) mare, lots of white by a stallion with even more white. She produced a bay colt for me with alot of white and a colt that was born smokey black (sort of grulla) with silver tail hairs. He now just looks black, still silver tail hairs. What does that say for her -- Pure Preppy is the mare (on my website www.krugerrandrunfarm.com (http://www.krugerrandrunfarm.com)) and her pedigree is in the Del Mar site. She is by Da White Judge/Pure Innocence x Accused x Alleged.
Thanks!
PSG

[Sandbarhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CenterlineFarm:
A friend of mine has a loud pinto colt by a bay stallion with two small white socks that has never thrown pintos before and out of a plain brown mare - with not so much as a white sock. The stallion owner also has another stallion on the property that IS a pinto. The bay is registered as the sire but... Pinto is a dominant gene. Which stallion do you think is really the sire?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I think you're under a misconception there, CLF.

Pinto frequently crops out in both QHs and TBs. Granted, you can usually see some indication of certain genes (like sabino) in the parents, BUT tobiano can hide in a horse that appears to be VERY much solid colored. At least that's what info. I've read has said.

I found this out due to my curiousity with my 2 solid paints from the same sire & dam, both of which were 50/50 tobies.

I truly believe, though haven't tried to prove it genetically, that my mare is a minimally marked tobiano (who is a black/bay or brown, BTW). These horses are usually noted to have minimal white and NO facial markings in the usual places. Mine has just two white hind socks, with the ermine spots and a TINY spot on her upper muzzle area, of white. No stars, or anything else.

[Amy]

sand bar- have her tested... now that would be something intesting.

[Sandbarhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Amy:
sand bar- have her tested... now that would be something intesting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I may do that, just for curiousity's sake, but do plan, when she is eventually bred, to breed to a homozygous tobie.

Here's a quote from a Sponenburg article on the APHA website:
"Tobiano horses can vary from quite dark, with small amounts of white, to quite white, with little remaining color. The darker individuals sometimes have so little white spotting as to be confused with nonspotted horses.

The minimally spotted tobianos are interesting, because they are essentially tobianos that did not get spots. Such horses will produce just like a spotted horse, though, and this is the cause of some tobianos seeming to pop up out of nowhere.

A clue to these "nonspotted tobianos" is that they tend to have a large amount of white on the lower leg, but little white on the head. This combination is otherwise rare on horses, because on nonspotted horses the leg and facial white tend to vary together such that horses with a great deal of white on the head usually have a large amount of white on the feet, and vice versa."

For anyone interested in the whole article, here's the link:
http://www.apha.com/breed/geneticeq2.html

[aurum]

Sandbarhorse,

I have a mare that is a buckskin and has just a big blaze, NO white on the legs and her sire was a LOUD Sabino Cremello stallion and the dam was a Pinto Tobiano mare. This mare now has really gotten the minimum of both...the blaze.
You can look her up on my MARES page in the Warmblood chapter, her name is Madeira.

[Sandbarhorse]

She's a beauty, Aurum. Don't the gentics make you scratch your head sometimes though! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I know the breeder that bred my two felt really unlucky.

It looks like her blaze comes down fairly wide over the top part of her muzzle. Does it come around and underneath?

Based on some of the comments on the true topic of this thread, plus my mare and the one referenced by Centerline, I'm starting to wonder if somehow whatever gene makes that black-bay/brown color, can often have the ability to hide other normally dominant genes.

I haven't found anything explaining exactly what gene makes that color, though there are a number of genes that seem to make similar colors. I wonder if one of them also hides or is partnered with the hiding gene? Any thoughts as someone with a lot of color experience?

[Spot]

TKR - I LOVE Da White Judge!

I was hunting down a few of his mares awhile ago - he produces some nice horses with usually some VERY interesting colour!

Its a bit hard to tell with your mare's picture, but she looks pretty roany in her body, which would make me believe that she has the rabicano gene. As such, she is probably passing that gene on to her colt and he will also be rabicano / sabino

Now - onto the infamous INbreeding versus LINEbreeding definitions! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Seems like we were ALL wrong. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Here you go:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Ken McLean gave in his book "Quest for a Classic Winner" the following definition:

Inbreeding:
Where the pedigree shows duplication of an ancestor WITHIN four generation it is called inbreeding:
1x2, 2x1, 1x3, 3x1, 2x2, 2x3, 3x2, 3x3, 2x4, 4x2, 3x4, 4x3

Linebreeding:
Where the pedigree shows duplications of an ancestor in the following positions is is called linebreeding and it is imperativ that the duplication of an ancestor appears in the top and the bottom of the pedigree:
4x4, 3x5, 5x3, 4x5, 5x4, 5x5, 3x6, 6x3, 4x6, 6x4, 5x6, 6x5, 6x6 (and so one)

So 4x3 is inbreeding, but 4x4 is linebreeding.
He also thought, it's acceptable to describe 2x5 or 5x2 as inbreeding
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So - based on this EXPERT definition, we have one HELLUVA lot of inbred horses kicking around out there - racing, jumper, doing dressage, etc! That all seem to be doing very very well too ...

Including "Weekend Surprise", dam of AP Indy and winner of over $490,000.00.
She is INbred 2S x 4D to Somethingroyal, the dam of Secretariat.

Or - since I was on Aurum's site, how about:

Mascarpone - INbred 3D x 4S to Weltmann or Make Me Gold - INbred 2D x 4S to Malteser Gold

Doesnt seem to have hurt them too much either, has it?

Or - Nite Spot who is 2S x 2D to Give Em the Axe or Patchy Lassy (dam of Racey Remarque) who is 2S x 2D to Give Em the Axe as well.


:Spot:

[Amy]

Sandbar... there is a stallion that stands a few miles from me that is a homozygous toby. I almost bred a mare to him about 4 years ago. Anyway- the stallion's sire was a toby and the dam was a solid... must have been one of those minimal tobies. The owner (a Dr) said his dam was one of the few minimal tobies to be discovered. To my knowledge he has never thrown a solid... and he is bred to 20+ mares a year.

[darkmoonlady]

I was curious if anyone had photographs of the japanese palomino thoroughbred or if anyone knew his story. I think it would be interesting to see if he raced, etc. Scares me to think he is in Japan tho with thier view of horses as food...I hope whoever owns him knows what they have.

[Spot]

darkmoonlady - check him out on my website at:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/Cool_and_Unusual_Thoroughbreds.html

His name is Tosho Falco and he actually won quite a bit before the retired him to life as a track pony!
His pedigree and winnings can be found on DelMar

http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?query_type=check&search_bar=horse&h=Tosho+Falco&g=5&inbred=Standard&x2=n

Other than the picture that is on my site, here is another one of him

Enjoy!

:Spot:

[CenterlineFarm]

I was looking at the pedigree of Tosho Falso. Something is very off there as well. It says that Intermezzo (his Grandsire on the Sire side) is a bay. Yet he was born of two chestnuts.

Sooo, either a clerical error came about here, or some hanky panky happened which made Intermezzo actually a buckskin sired by (or out of) another horse (which I doubt because he never sired a single other dilute animal according to his progeny report - I think he was just a chestnut and someone made an error putting the pedigree colors in on the data base), or perhaps Tosho Falco isn't really a palomino at all, but a very attractive flaxen maned beauty - which is most likely.

Is Tosho for a FACT a palomino? Has he ever thrown any color anywhere?

[darkmoonlady]

Now that I have seen photos of Tosho Falco..hes not a palomino and if he tests with creme gene I will eat hay for a month. Hes just an example of a flaxen chestnut, just like Fire N Ice is an example of a flaxen arabian. They have almost white manes I will say that but you can see they are chestnuts. I would bet bigtime that had he been used as a sire, he would not have passed on any color other than flaxen to his offspring. He is not a palomino as far as I can see.

[Cartier]

Very interesting discussion. We had no idea there were so many strikingly colored TBs.

Spot,

Thank you for the link http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/Cool_and_Unusual_Thoroughbreds.html

If it’s not too far off topic, how did Tri Chrome die? And did anyone try to repeat his breeding?

[Jair]

Great photo albumn Spot!

That was a fun way to spend a few minutes at work on a Friday afternoon... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

My two favourites were Night Spot and Indigo Cat - I would LOVE to take him home as i've always had a hankering for a flaxen mane and tailed chestnut.

But I still have to say that I find some of those unusual colours (like Puchilingui or however the heck you spell it! lol) to be rather ugly. Sorry! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I was looking at the pedigree of Tosho Falso. Something is very off there as well. It says that Intermezzo (his Grandsire on the Sire side) is a bay. Yet he was born of two chestnuts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember that anyone and their brother can add, edit or delete info on DelMar, unfortunately!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Is Tosho for a FACT a palomino? Has he ever thrown any color anywhere? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He's a gelding so we'll never know ...
I first heard about him about 5 or 6 years ago. I was researching coloured and dilute TB's and got hold of a Japanese bloodstock agent that told me about a white TB in Japan (wish I could remember the name of it!) and oh! also about this horse that looked like Roy Rogers horse - the golden horse.
He sent me the pictures, told me that he was a palomino and unfortunately was also gelded. I thought at the time that I had found a whole new palomino strain in Japan then!
All I can go on is what is posted on DelMar (palomino) and what this bloodstock agent told me (palomino as well). Its possible that he is a very dark, chocolate palomino but I dont think we'll ever know for sure unless someone saw him in person

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now that I have seen photos of Tosho Falco..hes not a palomino and if he tests with creme gene I will eat hay for a month <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In case it comes down to this, do you prefer Timothy or alfalfa hay in your diet?! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If it’s not too far off topic, how did Tri Chrome die? And did anyone try to repeat his breeding? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No - not as far as I know (did anyone try and repeat the breeding). It was at the track - cant remember if it was an injury or colic that got him.
And even if someone DID try to repeat the breeding, doesnt mean that 5 or 10 foals later you'd have anything that looked like Tri Chrome ever again!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But I still have to say that I find some of those unusual colours (like Puchilingui or however the heck you spell it! lol) to be rather ugly. Sorry <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some of them are not exactly "esthetically pleasing" to the eye! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
But - you need to look at what Puchilingui throws which is usually never what he, himself, looks like. More like Sinatra's Reply or Sato or Puchi Trap which are really neat looking!

Ive whiled away many hours playing with and adding to this site - glad that you enjoyed it!

:Spot:

[Flying Hearts]

That really was a great site, thanks so much! Ok, I promise I'm not trying to open up another can of worms here, but what about frame overo TB's? Where'd they start?

[Cartier]

Spot,
Thanks for the answer about Tri Chrome. Very sad...

[Spot]

Flying Hearts - thats a tough question and Im not sure if anyone can really answer it. Remember - there are several variables at play here with the coloured Thoroughbreds.

1. Remember - coloured TB's do NOT exist, right?
Just today, I got this email (old habits and beliefs die hard, you know! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ):

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Hi, I was visiting your website and I was wondering something. Well, first of all, I saw that you breed Thoroughbreds and Paints as well. Now, most of your Thoroughbred horses are sabino or patched in some way. It is a known
fact that Thoroughbreds are strickly solid coloured horses. My question is, are your sabino Tbs crossed with Paints? This way it would make sense. How can a solid coloured breed be patched or spotted? I understand odd
markings like a white face, or unusually high stockings, things like that. Regardless of what your horses are crossed with to have those colours, they are beautiful. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So even now - today! - people STILL dont believe that coloured Thoroughbreds exist!
So - until coloured breeders in the last 5-10 years started breeding these coloured and dilute TB's specifically, no one knew or cared where they were. So - who knows if Nite Spot or Blue Eyed Streaker were the first frame overo's or the 10th or the 100th ???

2. The APHA's colour definition's were tobiano and anything other than tobiano - all lumped together under overo.
Overo included sabino's, rabicano's, splash white's, frames, etc, etc - all lumped together as overo's.
So - the papers say "overo" but was it a splash? a sabino? a frame? Who knows ...
It was even less conclusive when you are dealing wtih TB's. Was it a "plain bay" or did it "Have Chrome" ???
Did "Having Chrome" mean some stockings or body white? roaning? a white face? And there is NO way that you would know if that body white meant it was a sabino or a frame or a splash. NO way ...

Unless there were pictures available of every single TB out there for the last 50 or 100 years, I dont think that ANYONE could tell you for 100% certain where and how that first frame came about

Doesnt help much, does it?! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

:Spot:

[Norsire]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Unless there were pictures available of every single TB out there for the last 50 or 100 years, I dont think that ANYONE could tell you for 100% certain where and how that first frame came about <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well according to this frame overos have been in the TB breed for about 300 years!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Spotted Thoroughbreds, although rare, are Not New! Overo Thoroughbreds were documented to have occurred as early as the 1700's. Below is a picture of an oil painting made in 1790 of a racehorse owned by King George III. It hangs in "The Sudley Art Gallery" in Liverpool, England.

[Norsire]

Hummm....The Jockey Club called me personally on Thursday and they want me to send in my papers on Zillionair to have them changed at no cost to "palomino"...I said, well now that we have a cremello in Germany and my understanding is there might be another vote like last year where palomino color came from...can't we wait and see if cremello is going to come about??? And Trillionair was just reg today online and it has... Hold...then it says something to the effect under review for genetic error and supervisor review...and the same will happen with the filly I reg today also, who is actually a palomino. I will wait to see what you get on the buckskin before I bother with my buckskin. I told the gal when she called about Zillionair that I also had a palomino mare and another palomino stallion...they are not going to change them until they have foals reg and it will trigger a color change in the dam and sire after they look at their photos!!! But, Zillionair and Trillionair will still not be the proper color...don't they get it...it will cause questions as more and more foals are being born!!!! So my reg of Trillionair today will prompt my other to chestnuts to become palominos. Fred laughed as he held, Zilly and said, "so he is no longer a chestnut and is now a palomino??...I have a feeling I will be holding him again for photos when he becomes a cremello." shaking head....??? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif So you can certainly see where color confussion comes into play. When you have palomino to palomino you are going to get some cremellos and some buckskins and then some perlinos. So, now we have palominos...that are palomino, cremellos, and perlinos...now that is confussing!!! And bays there are buckskins... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[aurum]

In Europe inbreeding is only if breeding son to mom, daughter to sire, sister to brother. Anything outside of this range is considered linebreeding and is done often to obtain a superior quality horse with having two of the same sires (or dams) bring in the desired traits in the new foal.

[Norsire]

Gwen have you heard anymore about Al's papers going from palomino to cremello yet???? This changing papers and new photos is for the birds!

[aurum]

Bridget,

it will take time. The government vet had to complete the paperwork and it has been sent in to the German JC. Actually they have taken down the staff number there and are working at 2 instead of 4 and everything takes the double time now.

[vineyridge]

Yo, Spot--
How could you ignore Birdcatcher in your gallery?

I assumed The Tetrarch got his spots through Birdcatcher.

[Alagirl]

This thread had me wanting to find more pictures of the old Horses. I am planing to go to the Heremitage around Christmas - the home of Andrew Jackson. As far as I can tell it has the larges collection of horsepaintings open for viewing - at leat where I am at...

But I am sure he had only Bays and browns (heck, I am looking...can't be any other way!)

Don't know if I can take pictures - got busted allready in the Kentucky Horsepark museum snapping a picture of the Emperors Terracotta men...the picture came out top notch though!)

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Yo, Spot--
How could you ignore Birdcatcher in your gallery?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ack!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I am *TRYING* to get pictures as fast as I can! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I couldnt find a decent one of him to post!
If anyone has one - please email it to me!

truecolours@cogeco.ca

Also - I received a few ...sad... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif emails from people still on dial up ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif
Yes - its true. Not EVERYONE is on cable or satellite and cannot instantly access different sites. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif
I guess they load 1/4 or 1/2 or very little of this site, so what I am going to do for the poor souls on dial-up is break up the categories - have one for dilutes, one for bay and white, chestnut and whites, maximally expressed sabino's, etc so each one only takes a minute or so to load for the dial up people which should solve the problem for them!
All / most should be done this weekend

:Spot:

[Painted Wings]

I love this thread. So I'm looking at a filly that is sired by a smokey black stallion and the dam is a dark brown. Her dam was actually a true black. The filly is a dark brown like her dam. Is it possible that this dark brown color would disguise the creme gene? I thought only black could disguise the creme gene. I've attached a photo of her.

[Nootka]

WOW that is a great colored filly. I love her face

[Fred]

reading your posts Spot often brings to mind the old phrase, "bullshit baffles brains"... you can quote all the statistics you want... but YOU are the one who misread, misunderstand,and took statements out of context.
My weaknesses and failings are quite probably legion, but English Language comprehension is not one of them... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ah knows it don't count for nuthin' but a double honours English and History degree, post graduate studies in English Literature, AND a life time professional work life as a writer/journalist,, suggests, quite possibly the ability to read, and understand what I read. It has also given me a bit of a facility to read between the lines and also read what is NOT BEING SAID..http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
If YOU had read my original post correctly, you would have seen that I was NOT questioning the value or importance of inbreeding (and for these purposes, call me old fashioned, I will stick with the term 'inbreeding; as it appears on Jockey Club pedigrees...
I did not take the quote from Dream Hope farm's site out of context...
I looked at breeding to her stallion a number of years ago, and that statement LEAPT out at me...it raised a flag in my mind, as it were..
that the quote bothered to refer to a mishapen foot caught my attention... and I was asking, ie ASKING (you might have noticed a small symbol after the words club foot "?". In the English language, this symbol indicates a question.. as in was this odd foot a club foot? simple question.. why so defensive, I wonder?
Then you go on to introduce the complete nonsequitor redherring of Royal Chocolate - a big handsome individual if there ever was one, who, in my opinion, definitely had a club foot.
But,to the best of my knowlege, we were not talking about Royal Chocolate, or even about club feet - which we all know can be the result of bad shoeing, poor nutrition, growth problems, accidents etc...
then when Quinn came on to reiterate the simple question:
which was "are colour breeders concerned about the degree of inbreeding, specifically to the stallion Milkie.. and since you are inbreeding to this individual, what characteristics distinguish HIM as an individual - other than his colour - to make him a desirable sport horse sire..
again, you avoided that simple question and came back with a big list of inbred sport horses... um, Spot, nobody was questioning the value of inbreeding to exceptional individuals.. and all of those individuals you listed so proudly were exceptional..
my own stallion is inbred and I am proud of that inbreeding.. 4x4 Nasrullah, 5x5 Princequillo, 5x5 Mumtaz Begum, and of course 5x5x6 Nearco... interesting that you should mention APIndy, who is from the same female family as A Fine Romance's sire.. but we are not talking about my horse, and I didn't bring up this question with any kind of hidden agenda.
I am a mare owner and horse breeder first.. and was asking a question. Interestingly, I was not referring to Guaranteed Gold at all when I posted that question - I was not aware of his breeding - but after you reacted so defensively and I might say condescedingly to me - who has always been supportive of you and your breeding program, by the way..
I am sure you are very proud of the fact that he competed bare foot.. but again, that is a non sequitor.. a club foot does not preclude hardness.... two different things..and again, I was not criticising or even talking about him..
It is one thing to breed 'coloured horses' - it is entirely another to breed 'sport horses' - and if you are going to breed sport horses, then surely you would have no problem discussing the performance credentials of your horse's ancestors. Enquiring minds want to know...http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I would love to have a palomino..as a mare owner I have given much thought to breeding to produce this, but as a responsible breeder whose emphasis is on performance and performance pedigrees, it is reasonable and responsible to ask questions..
You can stick your head in the sand if you want, but please don't kick that sand in the faces of others who may not be wearing the same rose "coloured" glasses you are.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[okggo]

Painted, I know squat about color breeding, but that is a CUTE foal and looks like a nice substantial mare http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif What is the breeding?

[DLM]

Painted Wings .. WOW that is a gorgeous filly!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

What is her breeding?

[Nikita]

A girl can't take a few weeks off to start a new business without having to come back to this stuff. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Wow Fred, your post is certainly a surprise. Now although I don't have the amazing credentials that you boast in the English lit area, I majored in English and I didn't have any problems with comprehension. Now granted, I'm a bit rusty because I'm not a writer/journalist, but I sure did read a number of things in both your original post and this long, caustic one from last night that I think need some clarification. You know, just in case some other people, not as gifted in the English language such as myself, read these same things as well.

My Milkie desendant Madison, definitely doesn't have a club foot. She doesn't even have a 'wonky' foot. I can also attest to the fact that Sato's feet are completely normal as are Guaranteed Gold's. I have seen all of these horses - a couple of them a LOT. All these lovely Milkie relatives are within a very short driving distance of you so I'd invite you to take a couple of hours one day to visit them all so you could tuck away that red flag for good. I'm sure if you got to know any of these individual's you would be completely impressed by their outstanding temperaments, their fantastic movement and conformation and their potential in their individual fields. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. And their lack of club or wierd feet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I hope Norsire, RFF, Faith's CremelloWB, Lauren Efford, SymRanch, chrismo, Terry Brown, Canadian Kid's new owners and other owners of other "Milkie" horses come to this thread and put to rest this genetic misinformation you provided on the Milkie line.

I guess at this point I would have to ask you, when you made all of those nice comments about Madison and said that I should keep her so that I could breed her to Fred later on, or give her to you, were you lying? I know people say things just to be nice but I can't figure out why that red flag wasn't flapping like crazy when you suggested that I breed her to your stallion and what a nice cross that would be. So, I guess I can assume that you were either insincere (and just trying to be nice) or the perceived lack of performance record and genetic mutations were ok in your breeding program? ( link (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=3206053911&m=343206063&r=209208063#209208063) )

I don't know. I can't figure it out. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I am by no means a pedigree or performance guru and I'm sure some other people will step in when they read this thread but I can advise of the Milkie stats that I do know. I checked this out when I was researching an Elizabeth Victoria / GG cross a few months ago. This info wasn't too tough to find either. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif - most of it's right on the True Colours website. Some of the other stuff I looked up this morning so I could properly defend my breeding program.

Milkie's Desire - the sire of Guaranteed Gold.

Milkie's Desire has sired many successful conformation and hunter winners, including:

"Bucked"
Champion Hunter Breeding Best Young Horse

"Dressed In Gold"
Nationally Ranked 1st year hunter, and shown as a conformation hunter

"Gold Horizon"
Nationally Ranked A/O Hunter and IHF Winner

"Lucky In Gold"
2nd Place Yearling TB's at Devon Horse Show (1997)

"RFF King's Ransom"
3rd at Devon Horse Show and 1998 PA Year EndChampion Two Year Old Colt. Successful sire of Sport Horses.

As well, this information may not be quite as well known (Spot just sent to me a few weeks ago before she included it on the genetic portion of Guaranteed Gold's history) Tootsie T.'s offspring. Unfortunately she only had 4 foals. So it is possible that Milkie was the only dilute colored one. On the other hand it was a 50-50 chance each time, and the other three were listed as black, bay, and brown. The black is a likely prospect, but sadly she never had any foals, at least no registered TB foals. The bay daughter produced only one foal, a colt named Loris Command, who was "dkb/br". There's no way of finding out whether he ever had any offspring, unless you get the sire report. Perhaps the most promising is the "brown" daughter, who was unraced, but produced 9 foals, and they were good ones, (2 stakes-winners and 3 stakes-placed) so they likely would have bred on. Unfortunately, I can only look up colors through 1973, but her first three were listed as chestnut, bay, and chestnut.

As far as Milkie himself goes, he sired one "bay" (a colt) and one "dkb/br" (a filly, but she has no offspring). One has no color listed, but is out of a chestnut mare so had to be chestnut or palomino. And the rest are all "chestnut". 3 were called "light chestnut" like him, so had to be palominos and another 9 of the "chestnuts" I know were palominos. The rest, who knows. Could be either.

Canadian Kid had, through 2000, only 3 registered foals, 2 palo & 1 ch.

Milkie's Desire had, through 2000, 27 foals, 19 "chestnut", 2 "bay", 4 "dkb/br", and 2 with no color listed. One of the "dkb/br" ones was Bucked, who we know was a buckskin, but I think he was gelded. The others were - Miever, 1997 colt, unraced; Bold Waters, 1998 colt, unraced; and Pupit Fiction, 1999 colt, unraced. All colts! The bays were - Cause to Pause, a 1998 filly who was apparently never registered, and Sweet Milk, 1995 filly, unraced, no foals yet.

Gold Apollo is the most promising because he had lots of foals, with more variety in the colors than the other sires. 10 bays, 10 dkb/br, 5 greys, 2 known buckskins, tons of "chestnuts" - 80 foals total.
A few of them even raced.

So - as well as line and hunter winners, this line has also produced stakes winning and stakes placed horses. There arent too many other Thoroughbred stallions that can offer THOSE statistics to a breeder, are there?

I look forward to following Guaranteed Gold and Sato and many of the other Milkie and non Milkie dilutes as they enter the show rings everywhere. I also hope their efforts are as well supported as the tremendous backing and loyalty Fred as been given over the years by all of us. You do know how important that support can be when starting out with a young horse or doing a career change part of the way through?

Away from the stats, personally yes, performance counts. That's one of the reason's I have both mares that I do at the moment. But there was one time that I didn't follow my gut on a stallion that I loved but didn't (yet) have the performance record. And I still kick myself for not having bred a mare to Art Deco many years ago. (Was that a mistake or not in 'your' opinion?) So now, I am willing to take a chance on that young stallion with incredible potential if the conformation, movement and temperament are all present and accounted for. And if that stallion just happens to be a successful eventer turned successful hunter and he can also give me the pretty outter wrapping...... all the better!

signed
Madison's mom and Nikita's step-mom
<span class="ev_code_RED">-&gt;Proud Members of the Milkie and Oatmeal Cookies Club&lt;-</span>

[Painted Wings]

The filly I posted a photo of is by a smokey black overo Paint stallion out of a Tb mare that is a granddaughter of The Minstrel. She seems to be getting darker. I'm wondering if she has the creme gene. The breeder owes me a foal due to some previous transactions so I am thinking this might be the one. If I get her I will definitely have her tested for the creme gene. I've got her on hold right now until I go back to look at her next weekend. I'm attaching a more recent photo. She is very dark so that's why I'm wondering if the creme gene could be there but masked in a dark bay. For more details on her bloodlines go to

http://members.aol.com/wildcanaryridge/foals.html

[Spot]

PW - I LOVE that filly - especially now seeing the trot shot of her!
She is a classy classy filly!
What colour are the insides of her ears? If the hair inside is gold, there is a very good chance that she IS a smoky black.
Who was the APHA sire?
This is the problem with smoky blacks - a lot of people dont realize that they ARE smoky blacks and then when the buckskins and palominos pop out, they are taken off guard.

Fred - on to your post ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

No - I didnt major in English Lit either, but when I was in University, I took Psychology which has stood me well, especially when people tend to act out of their normal character, and I need to try and figure out why.

I also cannot understand why the sudden "Milkie" bashing on your part. I have my suspicions, but thats a whole 'nuther story ...

You were thrilled when I gave you some Sato semen - for free, mind you - "As a Friend" - for your best mare - Cricket. At that time, it didnt seem to concern you that Sato traced back to Milkie, and his feet (which are PERFECT!) didnt seem to concern you either, nor did any alleged INbreeding or LINEbreeding in the Milkie line.

I also "have a dog in this fight" personally, with my Faux Finish filly, who is of course by Guaranteed Gold and who traces back to Milkie. She does NOT have a club foot or a wonky foot or anything else you to choose to insinuate it is or might be, any more than I guess any Fine Romance offspring do. Ridiculous accusation, isnt it Gail? And next year and the year after Faux Finish will stand on her own merits in APHA, Sport Horse and Thoroughbred line classes and we can then attest to the *fact* that Guaranteed Gold is producing outstanding line horses as well - in ***3*** separate breed registries.

The Milkie line has sired line winners and champions, hunter winners (both working hunters and CONFORMATION hunters!) and champions and stakes winning and stakes placing race horses. What other proof do you need? If there was a club foot present genetically in the line, I dare say that they wouldnt have done too well on the line, or in a strip class nor would Guaranteed Gold have passed his CSHA inspection. They tend to NOTICE things like club feet in *inspections* you know.

And yes - he is a BRONZE Premium stallion Gail, as you have pointed out in your post. They all have to start somewhere - the youngsters - dont they? Bronze leads to Silver which then leads to Gold. I cant think of any other YOUNG stallions that were awarded Gold status right off the bat - can you?!

Guaranteed Gold - personally - is also too young to have any offspring showing and racing yet. Give him time ...

Gail - you have not only insulted Sarah personally on her stallion, who doesnt deserve this in the slightest, but also anyone else and everyone else who own a Milkie line mare or stallion or gelding for that matter.
Kinsella with Goldmaker, Red Fox Farm with RFF Kings Ransom, Norsire with Billionair, Zillionair and Trillionair as well as the mare - Queen Debonair and the next generation -Pure White Gold,etc, chrismo with her Milkie line mare and her stallion out of that mare, whoever the new owners are with Canadian Kid now, Blazing Colours with Sato, Goldhope Farm with their multitude of Milkie bred mares and offspring, Sym Ranch with her Milkie line mare - Brightest Gold, Julia Lord with her Milkie mare - Lucky in Gold and foals, Michael Amador with Springtime Girl, Gwen Gregorio with her filly - Golden Desire and her cremello colt - RFF The Alchemist and on and on it goes. Do you REALLY think that ALL of these people would miss something like a club foot, or not have any idea how to read pedigrees or genetic information??? You have honestly insulted them all ...

None of these people deserve the darts you have thrown at their horses either simply because of some "feeling" you have that is totally without merit

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I looked at breeding to her stallion a number of years ago, and that statement LEAPT out at me...it raised a flag in my mind, as it were..
that the quote bothered to refer to a mishapen foot caught my attention... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You, of all people should know that back when Milkie was born, they didnt have DNA testing, they didnt have tried and true bloodtyping available - it was very rudimetary and basic. And yes - it was literally as scientific as saying "This stallion - Deer Lodge - always throws a different looking hoof (not "CLUB", not MISSHAPPEN" - but "DIFFERENT") and that was the basis they had for verifying parentage back then. How many other TB's are there possibly out there that back in the 30's and 40's and 50's arent actually by or out of the sires and dams they are SUPPOSED to be from simply because there WAS no way to verify it back then??? I would venture to say a lot - with no way of backing that statement up or refuting it either.

Gail - I have seen and lived with and owned several Milkie line horses, for years and years. How many have you actually SEEN up close, let alone owned or lived with for any length of time? Perhaps - "0" ???

I believe that I have addressed all of your questions now with regards to misconceptions on "wonky" feet in the Milkie line and INbreeding/LINEbreeding, as well as what makes Guaranteed Gold merit the title of "Sport Horse" stallion based on successes through the last 20 and 30 years of the Milkie line bred horses (sires and dams) in pretty well every discipline going (including CONFORMATION hunters and LINE winners), as well as his OWN successes in his limited year of showing. I hope to also add to his list of successes when we get him out in the hunter ring in 2005

If you have any more questions that you would like some answers on, you can email me privately, post publicly or call me - it doesnt matter to me Gail. You will, as always, get a "STRAIGHT" answer from me

Donna

[Riggs]

Gosh, I dunno know, but I think it was a fair question asked in a fair way. She had been wondering about it for a while and wanted to know what they meant by odd foot or whatever the term was. And I htink anyone has the right to ask the background/qualities of the animal on the board. If there is concern about the closeness of the inbreeding, I would think this is a chance to put it all to rest? Isnt it about information gathering/getting? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif What IS the shape of the foot anyway, so we can put this to bed? How often was it passed on? I know you mentioned a lot of horses that dont have it - what is the ratio of having it/not having it?

And finally, if I was interested in a stallion, I would certainly want to know more about his performance and conformation and such, not solely colour. To my (naive?) mind, this is a chance to really sell the horse and put concerns to rest, not jump all over someone bcause they are asking questions you see as tough or whatever. You are an EXTREMELY strong marketer of your horses, we all get the message BELIEVE me, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but to me, it isnt enough to just say how great they are. To my mind, one has to explain things or else be prepared when people ask tough questions, not just jump on them for asking them.

I dont own a coloured horse, but do enjoy reading the coloured threads. But you guys seem so sensitive and volatile! It's like watching a Ricki Lake show gone bad! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I too am a very straight shooter and I would say that since most of these posts from the coloured crowd seem so volatile, it might not bode well for people wanting to join the crowd?

[scrubs]

OK - I have come in near the end of this - but I looked up the horse "da white judge" becasue I had heard of him before in Ohio. So I looked up photos in his pedigree - Look at the photo of the horse named "Tetrarach" What the H*** is up with that coloratio - can someone who knows something about this color stuff do some 'splainin' for me.

[sophab]

I don't know. I am new to all this palomino stuff. I first found them at RFF, and then through Bridget/Norsire.
I spent a weekend going over her horses with a fine tooth comb. While I am dying for a Paly baby, I am not willing to sacrifice quality for color. There was not a club foot on the property. In fact, in all of her TB's and dilutes, all I saw were nice moving, athletic sporthorse types. I appreciated that. It is a worry, particularly with linebreeding/inbreeding whatever that something may crop up. It is nice when you are able to see all the good qualities showing themselves.
I can't speak to GG, I have never met him in person, but from his pictures, he as well looks to be a nice, correct TB.
Tetrarch is funky isn't he?? I think he was a grey with all sort of bizarro white spots. Very cool...

[Norsire]

Sophab, AuntieSha, and Blueski (?) are all COTH posters and they all saw 9 Milkie line horses on my property this spring/summer. They were Queen Debonair, Issue Of Gold, Zillionair, Pure White Gold, Ebony Gold Orchid, Sparkles Of Gold, Bright Gold Flames, Sunset Billionair and Trillionair...of which none have a club foot...I don't have the Glitter Please line and don't plan on having any either! I don't think there is a problem with linebreeding/inbreeding the Milkie line as their feet are just fine and is not a concern to inbreed/linebreed for this very reason. Over the years of hauling my mare to Gold Apollo, I saw many of his foals on the farm and NEVER saw one club foot there either. I have bred this line since 1992 and have never produced a club footed foal in my dilute line! The Milkie line is know for very tuff hooves, not a club foot on the left front.

[darkmoonlady]

well despite some of the disagreements I must say that doing the research on all this has been really fun. I have spent way too much time at the Thoroughbred Heritage site and not on my french homework..lol. I have found a few more examples of horses WWAAAYY back there but in doing more research on the dams of Milkie and Glitter Please and even Sylfou I just get cross eyed..lol I am still going to try to find some more examples of palominos and buckskins in the recent past if they are to be found.

[Painted Wings]

Yes, the insides of her ears are light colored. I've attached another photo showing the ears. At first I thought that since she was brown she could not carry the creme gene but reading some of the posts here I realized that she might possibly be a dark buckskin.

Her sire is a smokey black tovero paint stallion that is a full brother to the horse I currently event. The sire is out of my favorite mare ever.

his website is:

http://members.aol.com/wildcanaryridge/phineas.html

[Two Toofs]

Okay, just so I understand.....

Some folks are getting upset because the parentage of Milkie was questioned and responded by stating that his parentage was verified by the fact that he carried a heritable "wierd" or "different" foot. And then when someone asks what the "different" foot is, whether or not is is a club foot, the same folks get upset and believe their horses are being labeled as club footed horses, when they are not, but they are 100% TB, because Milkie had a "different" foot that was heritable. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

Do I understand correctly?

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spot:


ack!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I am *TRYING* to get pictures as fast as I can! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I couldnt find a decent one of him to post! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spot, I mentioned this before but you apparently didn't see it. You might want to rethink some of the photos on your site. You have at least one specifically that is from a website that states that no photos are to be taken from their site and everything on it is copyrighted, not to be reproduced without permission. Please keep copyrights in mind when putting something like this together. I'm sure most people wouldn't mind if you 1) asked permission, and 2) gave credit.

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Please keep copyrights in mind when putting something like this together. I'm sure most people wouldn't mind if you 1) asked permission, and 2) gave credit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two Toofs - thanks. I have asked permission. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PW - no doubt in my mind - with those ears you 100% have a smoky black filly there! Absolutely 100% positive that she is smoky black, but also get the tests done to be certain in your own mind!
NO matter which picture you post of her, she is a NICE filly! I'd buy her quick before someone else scoops her up especially as she is now a 1/2TB, smoky black coloured filly!

Scrubs - all of the present day TB's descend from The Tetrarch but where he got HIS markings from - who knows!

I think (and someone can correct me if I am, wrong on this one!) bloodtyping came into being in around the '80's and DNA testing about 3 years ago, so prior to that - I believe it was basically the word of the stallion manager that he bred Fluffy the mare to his stallion and this baby was the result of that cross. Until something like Milkie came along that defied logic and defied all previously preconceived ideals that is, and then the only other way they had at the time to verify HIS parentage, was checking to see if Deer Lodge has passed on his "different" foot to him. Hardly highly scientific! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

How do you really and truly KNOW that some of your TB's ancestors from the 30's or 40's or 50"s are REALLY who they say they are? Heck - even your WARMBLOODS! How do you REALLY know?!

You dont - and you have NO way of knowing, so dont lose any sleep over it!~

:Spot:

[Riggs]

So again I ask, what does 'different' mean? What kind of shape is it?

[Spot]

Riggs - I dont know, to be very honest.

I guess you would have had to have been there back in the '60's to see for yourself, because to look at the feet of the Milkie line bred horses of today, the right matches the left and their angles are identical. So - I have NO idea what they were talking about 40+ years ago - just that one foot looked "different" from the other and "every" Deer Lodge foal had that foot

Deer Lodge had a grand total of 6 foals, so its also not exactly like there was a huge pool of foals to pull from to get this data!

So -all I can answer is - I dont have a clue what made one foot look different from the other back in 1966 but every Milkie line bred horse I have seen TODAY - 40 years later - has a normal looking right and left foot!

:Spot:

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Please keep copyrights in mind when putting something like this together. I'm sure most people wouldn't mind if you 1) asked permission, and 2) gave credit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two Toofs - thanks. I have asked permission. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not for all of them you don't. Always remember, you never really know who is posting here, or who may have actually taken photograph or two that you have on your site. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Norsire]

My understanding of the Milkie line feet is not that they were different in shape, but that they were called "mule feet", since they were increditibly hard and very tuff for a farrier to trim them, since they were like steel to trim. I have never heard that one looked any different from the other. This is what the Gold Apollo people told me. All mine have very tuff and very nice round feet with matching angles on both front feet. When they say different they are referring to how tuff and hard they were.
While I was at the farm where Gold Apollo was Joe said here and he handed me a farrier knife that you pare the hoof out with and said, "just try and get one little piece out of his hoof." I could not get it to dig in at all and then he took me to another TB horse, that had no Milkie in this lines and asked me to do the same thing..it was very easy to get a little piece of hoof out with the same knife that was impossible for me to get out of Gold Apollo. I would have to say mine all have GREAT feet! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Painted Wings]

Well, I'm going to have her tested to see if she is homozygous for bay/black. Might as well throw in the additional $25 and see if she's got the creme gene too.

[Riggs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Norsire:
My understanding of the Milkie line feet is not that they were different in shape, but that they were called "mule feet", since they were increditibly hard and very tuff for a farrier to trim them, since they were like steel to trim. I have never heard that one looked any different from the other. This is what the Gold Apollo people told me. All mine have very tuff and very nice round feet with matching angles on both front feet. When they say different they are referring to how tuff and hard they were.
While I was at the farm where Gold Apollo was Joe said here and he handed me a farrier knife that you pare the hoof out with and said, "just try and get one little piece out of his hoof." I could not get it to dig in at all and then he took me to another TB horse, that had no Milkie in this lines and asked me to do the same thing..it was very easy to get a little piece of hoof out with the same knife that was impossible for me to get out of Gold Apollo. I would have to say mine all have GREAT feet! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How interesting!

Well, THAT doesnt sound too bad at all, in fact, it sounds really good! I'm glad I asked!

[TKR]

Canadian Kid now belongs to a friend of mine, Kate Redmond, who also stands 2 other TB stallions, in North Alabama.

I don't know why it's not ok to clarify something like a funky hoof. It's a shame these things get so out of hand.

Norsire -- why the aversion to Glitter Please?

Penny G

[Riggs]

Painted Wings, I have to tell you I love your baby Lucy!
You mentioned 1/2 TB on the dam side by a Paint Stallion. What breeding is in the Paint? That baby has one heck of a butt!

[Painted Wings]

Riggs,

I have posted the link to the stallion's website above. He is out of my old palomino tobiano event mare (evented Prelim a couple of times, mostly competed Training) by a black overo paint stallion that never did much but had good size and bone and had some Tb in him.

here's his website again:

http://members.aol.com/wildcanaryridge/phineas.html

I have the full brother to the stud. He jumps great, has nice movement, foxhunts, and is generally fun to be around.

The Tb mare has a full sister that is eventing preliminary.

-Leslie

[Nikita]

A long time ago as I was about to start my first sales job at the tender age of 21, my dad taught me something I'll never forget. He taught me the importance of never putting down your competitors product. He said you have no idea if the person you're speaking to has considered the other product, perhaps was the one responsible for buying the other product at some time.... either way you'd be telling him he's an idiot because you've just said how bad the product was and he perhaps considered or WORSE, bought it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

He said the way to present yourself and your product was to say "Yes that product is very good, or that company is very good but let me tell you why mine is better".

I've never forgotten that.

And for some reason, I thought of it again today. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

On that note - good night.

[Kinsella]

Unfortunately Fred is not the person I think of when reading Nikita's father's (very good) advice.... And you (all of those invloved in the 'colored' TBs) can believe me when I say I am not the only one to have that thought.

I think Fred asked a valid question. I know when I bought Goldmaker I made damn sure the vet that did his vetting double, triple, and quadrouple checked his feet because I had heard and read that they Milkie horses sometime had "wierd" feet and the Glitter Please was club-footed. Was that info true? I don't know, I never saw GP in person, and the Milkie line horses I have seen in person (All 2 of them INCLUDING Goldmaker) have had normal feet. But did I ask? Did I double check? Yes, I did. And had I gotten a response like Fred did/has, I'd have run far, far away. (Darn, why didn't someone give me that response? Would have saved me a heck of a lot of heartaches & headaches!!)

[Kinsella]

And to ante up, here is a photo of Goldmaker at the Raleigh show this weekend. Not in the ring as my camera was being a PITA and I couldn't take any photos in the indoor or covered rings. He did the Baby Greens and the Hopefuls BTW, and got ribbons in 4 of his 6 classes. He was a super good boy for a greenie that had not been to a show for 4 months!

Anyway, his feet are all clearly visible and on hard ground (pavement actually) so, though he is walking at an angle by the camera, you can clearly see his feet.

(And to those that are curious, I went to watch and video him for the new website and 2005 video at the request of and with his owner.)

And Fred, His owner says you are first on the video list http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Palomino Leopard WB]

Kinsella you have a PT

I am a little lost here as to why the wording of the hoofs has become so much of an issue. I have never seen it written that the Milkie line of horses has an odd or clubbed foot.
The GP line of horses is known for it left front hoof to be exact and I have a GP mare so I did do some reasearch on it. Does it stop the horses from being good performance horses? Don't think so, but many are still young.

[Riggs]

Painted Wings, I can see where Lucy gets her great butt and colour from! Sorry I missed the post with the link first time 'round, thanks for re-posting it!

[Kinsella]

Right back atcha PLWB...

And to answer your question<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Does it stop the horses from being good performance horses? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, I know a lot of horses that have a club foot or an abnormal shaped hoof and are VERY successful in their chosen career. But selling one with a hoof abnormality of any kind - not just club footed is a PITA without a show record to back it up. And heaven forbid you try to stand a stallion with an odd foot. Unless he is Absolut' or All The Gold or heck, even Popeye K (and no, I am not saying any of them have any type of anything except exceptional offspring or show records) it would be next to impossible to get bookings.

[darkmoonlady]

The foot issue wasn't an issue it was an anecdote from a story about whether Milkies sire Deer Lodge was his real sire and there hadn't been any fence jumping. His sire had either a distinct hoof shape or extra hard hooves. The article link was posted as a way of me saying I never thought either Glitter Please or Milkies sires were different than listed. I had the theory that POSSIBLY thier dams sires could have been other than what was listed. The whole foot thing got a life of its own when someone posted was it a club foot, which the article NEVER said, something I NEVER said. Just to clarify. I think the post with the article link is a ways back. As far as anyone is concerned both Glitter Please and Milkie had fine conformation and no identified flaws and niether does any of thier offspring. So just to reiterate, I posted the article mentioning something about the way Milkies sire Deer Lodge "stamped" his offspring and it was never intended as a inference about soundness etc. I apologize if this part of the thread got taken way out there with some posts. I have nothing but good things to say, I just started this as a way of finding out where in the heck these palominos came from. Haven't got a definitive answer yet but still lets play nice.

[ruthie]

Ok and I can see that once again we have no life other than angry discussions on Palomino TBs. Several comments--
Sincerely doubt that there were any fence jumpers. As for typing TBs as "looking saddlebred", well I hate to say this but there is no longer a Type on TB, thanks in large part to the indiscriminate amount of horses the TB Racing industry produces in their quest to find that one winner.
As for color, I find it interesting that the ball started on the two cremellos in KY who came out of "black" TBs has been dropped--is there some reason this is a secret? We all know that the dilution cannot be seen on a black horse so obviously it stands to reason that the possiblity of more dilute or double dilute TBs do exist and are now just coming to light.
But back to the original ? on the two cremellos in KY-- who are they?, why is their existence being hidden? and it is stated that they are double registered? double registered what? as if the two parents are "black" then is there a Cremello TB registry that I am not aware of?
I am more puzzled and intrigued by the hiding of the two cremellos in KY then by the incessant idiotic inaccurate banter that is being exhibited here about feet issues and ?'s about "parentage", if they are JC registered that means that they are JC registered so the issue of fence jumping is moot and really more aimed at inciting a fight then anything else.
I ask again WHO are the two cremello fillies in KY--is it possible that they are QH X's?

[Palomino Leopard WB]

Ruthie you raise a valid point but unfortunately one that will never be answered.
My thoughts are if there are two smokey black TB's in Kentucky not related to Milkie or GP both of racing pedigrees but neither related to each other...and they just happen to end up at the same farm and be breed to one another to produce not one but two cremello fillies. What are those odds?
Take two smokey black horses, breed them together and you get what?
smoky black
black
smoky cream
sorrel
palomino
cremello
take those odds and produce two cremello fillies? Where are the colour expecrts out there to figure out the odds or if these horses also have to be homozygous for something?

I still think it woud be great to find other horses that are dilutes, but for wahtever reason these two horses will remain a mystery. Too bad the stallion owner is definitely sitting on a gold mine.

I am not certain anyone is really trying to start an arguement really just trying to learn more about colour genetics myself and others are probably curious.

[Brunhilde]

Just jumping in here to say that I have a Milkie granddaughter, and she's had three foals for me, plus I have two colts by Guaranteed Gold, and I can assure you, they all have wonderful feet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But really, that's not the question, is it? I've never before heard of Milkie-line horses being accused of having club feet. That was always the accusation that was thrown at the Glitter Please offspring (which was, of course, a totally false rumor started by someone who was just jealous of his success).

As the story goes, apparently Deer Lodge had some kind of "oddly shaped" hoof, which he passed on to all of his offspring, including Milkie. Nobody has ever said what they meant by "oddly shaped", but it doesn't seem to have meant anything negative, since Milkie was put into race training right on schedule and was said to be doing very well. Whatever it was, he didn't pass it on to his offspring, or surely someone would have commented on it. So I guess we will never know just what they were talking about. And I guess it doesn't matter anyway.

Painted Wings -- your filly is beautiful, and I think she could very well be hiding a cream gene on a black or brown base color. She looks very much like some of my smoky blacks. Go for the extra $25, then you'll know for sure. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Oh, and be sure to test her for lethal-white, you know all about that, right? She sure looks frame overo to me. That's something you absolutely need to know if she will ever be bred. Please do share the results of her agouti and cream tests with us so we will know if we were right! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

darkmoonlady -- you did indeed get a definitive answer to your question -- they have been present since the beginning of the breed, they are present now, so obviously they were present all along in between. Since the only photos available of those ancestors are in the hands of the Jockey Club, who won't share them with anyone, we will never know for sure which ancestors it came down through. I guess that bothers you but there's not much more we can say.

ruthie -- I agree with you, why the secretive nature of this "cremello discovery" if they are really what they are said to be? That sure does seem weird. Why anyone would want to hide such a thing is beyond me, but I've seen it happen before.

[aurum]

My mare Golden Desire has a perfect shaped hoof on all four legs! The Alchemist has also perfect shaped hoof on all 4 legs but Glitter of Gold has a flat and a high heel hoof on his front legs but that does not mean that the high heel hoof is a club foot as inside all is okay said the x-rays. It happens that horses have different shaped hoof and I had a TB years ago that also had a high and flat heeled hoof on his front legs. Glitter Please also had this difference in his front hoofs I was told and so the fairy tale of his "club foot" might have been easy to believe.

[Palomino Leopard WB]

Good to know that "our" colt Alchemist has four perfect shaped hoofs http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
You brought up these mysterious TB horses in Kentucky Aurum how many other dilute TB horses out there do you think there are? Interesting if other lines can be found in the future.

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by darkmoonlady:
The whole foot thing got a life of its own when someone posted was it a club foot, which the article NEVER said, something I NEVER said. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must have missed that part. I only saw where someone ASKED if it was a clubbed foot. Which is a totally valid question about a horse who is described as having a "distinct shape foot" that is apparently hereitable. Does anyone know of any other type of "distinct shape foot" that is passed on?

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Does anyone know of any other type of "distinct shape foot" that is passed on? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. As mentioned, my Royal Chocolate mare - Golden Chocolate - who inherited RC's "distinct shaped foot" as well.

No - it wasnt a club foot. One foot took a size 2 shoe and the other took a size 1.

I SPECIFICALLY asked my vet and blacksmith if this was a club foot and they lokoed at me very strangely and said "no - why would you think that? It doesnt even remotely LOOK like a club foot???"
Many horses have one foot that is smaller than the other, or one that flares at the bottom and one that has straight inside walls. It doesnt mean that it is "club" - especially with no rotation, it simply means that one foot is "different than the other" - no more and no less

Hell - my Old Standby mare by Stage Door Johnny (not a drop of Milkie or GP blood in her either! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ) had one front foot that was as flat and flared as a pancake and the other one was a normal looking foot. Yes - both different looking feet but no - nothing nefarious like being clubbed ...

:Spot:

[Fred]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kinsella:
Unfortunately Fred is not the person I think of when reading Nikita's father's (very good) advice.... And you (all of those invloved in the 'colored' TBs) can believe me when I say I am not the only one to have that thought.

I think Fred asked a valid question. I know when I bought Goldmaker I made damn sure the vet that did his vetting double, triple, and quadrouple checked his feet because I had heard and read that they Milkie horses sometime had "wierd" feet and the Glitter Please was club-footed. Was that info true? I don't know, I never saw GP in person, and the Milkie line horses I have seen in person (All 2 of them INCLUDING Goldmaker) have had normal feet. But did I ask? Did I double check? Yes, I did. And had I gotten a response like Fred did/has, I'd have run far, far away. (Darn, why didn't someone give me that response? Would have saved me a heck of a lot of heartaches & headaches!!) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thank you Kinsella. I was just asking (what I mistakenly thought) was a simple question.
Having been on this BB as long as I have, and seen the fights that go on and on between certain individuals.. I should have stayed far far away.. I feel like I have stepped into the twilight zone or OZ.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
You can look at every single one of my posts..I have never slammed anyone's horses or breeding programs, I have always been generous and supportive of other stallions and stallion owners..most people know that. I NEVER intended to insult anyone or hurt anyone..and that should be obvious. The vitriolic response and personal attack I got ..? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
Oh well, at least I can feel good about bringing Spot and Norsire together on something! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
I had a call from another BB member yesterday and her advice was "run, run fast, run far from crazy palomino TB territory"... I should have taken that advice..
Again, to reiterate I have no hidden agenda, no intent to hurt anyone -nothing personal - anyone who knows me, either personally or through my posts should know that...I just asked a &lt;simple&gt; question.
to quote the Beatles, I should have known better....http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[aurum]

Fred,

perhaps with the internet and "infos" given fast around the world and each one putting a bit more into it, at the end the Palomino TBs would have ended with a duck foot http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I do not think your post was meant to hurt someone, but with all the nonsense that was already out there I can also understand that people owning such horses feel like being stepped on their toes....

And as for the Palomino TB owners well, I hope you do not put me into that same pocket. I am glad I am not in North America....but I can feel the icy breeze already too.

[Riggs]

I think my post said it all. Let's leave it alone - I think the foot has been beaten to death....
I have a question. Does the lethal white gene need to be tested in all paints and pintos? (I am new to this coloured stuff).

[aurum]

Riggs, no only for the frame gene, the others dont have it.

[sophab]

Hey Fred. Chin up...you are a well respected member of this board, and the horse world. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Every so often we all step right in a fresh steaming pile without even realizing it. It doesn't mean we are the pile, you know?
Kinsella-Goldmaker sure is a handsome boy...
Here's a funny story...AuntieSha and I were down at Equine Affaire this weekend. We ran into an old friend who has the most beautiful Paly Appy mare. She told us that she was planning on breeding in the spring. I got all excited and promised to help with the stud search (any recomendtions for a chestnut QH or Appy 15.2 or under with great personality throwing pleasure type babies, please PT me). Anyway, she told a story about her mares' sister who was also a Palomino. She was bred to a Paly stud, and they got...are you ready?? "An Albino" Now the story goes on that this albino died. She didn't say if it was natural or "OMG we have an albino, Hank get the gun" The sad thing about it (or at least so AuntieSha and I thought) is that they were likwly sitting on a gold mine with a cremello baby! Sigh...fate sure does have a sense of humor doesn't she?
Now, back to TB's. I think we are ignoring perhaps the most obvious answer to the question, "where do Paly TB's come from?" I guess I'll have to be the educator this am...are you ready?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
You see, there are boy horses and there are girl horses...
and sometimes, the boy horse invites the girl horse out for dinner and a movie...
they have a couple of glasses of wine with dinner...
they skip the movie all together...
and 11 mos later, they have a beautiful Paly baby! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Now, I guess the question still remains whether the girl horses' husband knew she was out on this date, and was with her, or maybe she was sneakin around on the sly...I just don't have the answer to that one. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[milynda milam]

Well, I'm getting to this quite late. I am not going to get into the palomino TB issue. These recurring little spats are why I don't participate on this board much anymore. I own and love dilute TBs, but the things that transpire on this board on this topic are bad for business. Since the color TBs are a business for me, I feel it necessary to distance myself from all the drama and concentrate on producing quality Thoroughbreds with athletic ability, great personalities and conformation, and color. The buyers will find the quality horses.

I will specifically answer Fred's question, since I own horses of the Milkie bloodline:
I never saw Milkie. I have a Milkie grandson, RFF King's Ransom. His feet are all normal and symmetrical. He has very good feet (was able to do his under saddle training without shoes) and all of his offspring have had good feet well within normal limits.

If anyone interested in dilute TBs has questions about palomino TBs as a whole or about specific individuals, I would suggest that interested parties contact breeders directly. Select the breeders whose horses appeal to you and inquire directly and when possible visit their farms to look at the horses. I think you will get more useful, on-point information that way.

[Amy]

There is nothing hidden about the cremellos in Ky... the folks that own them are not color breeders and don't care that they are cremellos. They are race breeders folks! Why haven't they come out and told the world?? Maybe they don't want to be hounded or maybe they just don't care about the color- just the race pedigree. Yes folks... it is only us color nuts that go gaga about this! THEY ARE MILKIE LINE HORSES.... so no new color lines out there. A couple of folks know who bred them... but they ain't tellin'! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think it was already established that another color breeder bought the older cremello filly. the breeders are keeping the other one.

[Amy]

Let me also add that Tb color breeders are by and far a lot less professional than almost any other breeding I have been involved in. Heck they make the whole ISR/OLDNA vs OLD Verband look like a a minor arguement in comparison! I really don't understand why they can't exist in peaceful harmony.

Edited to say http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I guess I have to include myself in that group since I have a sabino tb stallion and now a sabino filly.

[Spot]

Oh - I dont know about that Amy! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Over on this thread, there are some damned big darts being thrown at each other and its to do with the ATA! NO sabino's, NO dilutes, heck not even a coloured horse in sight! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.equiman.com/cgi-bin/ubb/Forum3/HTML/002025.html


:Spot:

[Kinsella]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If anyone interested in dilute TBs has questions about palomino TBs as a whole or about specific individuals, I would suggest that interested parties contact breeders directly. Select the breeders whose horses appeal to you and inquire directly and when possible visit their farms to look at the horses. I think you will get more useful, on-point information that way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I do agree with this statement. However, is a breeder going to tell you the bad with the good? Not usually. And most will deny to the death that there is any sort of heritable problem. Can't blame them, but I wouldn't say a breeder is the end-all be-all for information about a particular line. And that goes for EVERY breed. So asking questions on a public forum, in a non-agressive or threatening manner such as Fred used, is also a good way to gather information. I would think that if someone was interested enough to do the research they would have the ability to weed out those out those with special interest.

[Norsire]

I just went to that site listed for ATA and they have approved or not approved for the stallions with no scores listed, but for the mares they list all their scores and more interesting ALL the mares were approved! Why are the stallions scores not listed? Also, I had someone breed to Zillionair with an ATA mare and my understanding was that the foal would automaticly be reg with ATA, because he was a TB stallion and he's never been to an ATA inspection...are there different books for approved TBs and unapproved TBs offspring with ATA???? I'm not at all familiar with ATA! TIA! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Painted Wings]

I don't need to test the filly for the Frame gene as she clearly has it. Her sire has been tested and he has it. I think this filly also has the sabino gene as her mother appears to have it and the stallion has a sabino grandmother so could also have it. Four white socks on a frame overo are somewhat unusual indicating the presence of the Sabino gene. If I do ever breed her I will make sure the stallion she is bred to is Overo Lethal White negative.

I see a trend of aversity toward frame overos out of fear toward the lethal white gene. All Frame overos are lethal white carriers and bred to another frame overo have the potential to produce a lethal white foal. This is a simple enough problem to avoid however many breeders are not educated well enough to understand it. It has generated fear in some.

If I were to breed her I would make sure the stallion had actually been tested, not just assume that he's not got the frame gene just because he doesn't appear to have it (I.E. solid or tobiano).

[Amy]

Ok Spot... you got me on that one! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Kinsella]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Amy:
There is nothing hidden about the cremellos in Ky... the folks that own them are not color breeders and don't care that they are cremellos. They are race breeders folks! Why haven't they come out and told the world?? Maybe they don't want to be hounded or maybe they just don't care about the color- just the race pedigree. Yes folks... it is only us color nuts that go gaga about this! THEY ARE MILKIE LINE HORSES.... so no new color lines out there. A couple of folks know who bred them... but they ain't tellin'! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think it was already established that another color breeder bought the older cremello filly. the breeders are keeping the other one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, if the foals are Milkie line, the breeders are not race breeders since the Milkie line is not a racing line. And wasn't the original mention of these horses that they WERE NOT Milkie line, but a new line?

[Amy]

Kinsella- I spoke to the owner of one of the cremellos and she specifically told me they were Milkie line... as well as the folks are race breeders and Milkie was down the line a ways. Race breeders... not meaning to imply they are good or bad. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif LOL! I could be a race breeder too... just a poor one! Tongue in cheek on that one as I don't know these folks goals nor the sire/dam.

[Kinsella]

Ah, I see... Good point on the good or bad race breeding LOL!

Well, I guess I'll just do some research on my own and see what I can come up with. It really shouldn't be that hard to find out. Especially when the lines you are looking for aren't that prolific. (Not like looking for a particular foal by an unknown son of Storm Cat LOL!)

[Sally May]

Riggs writes: "I have a question. Does the lethal white gene need to be tested in all paints and pintos?"

If you have a Paint or Pinto mare that you intend to breed, or even a QH or other breed where the Frame gene lurks fairly often, yes, you should test every mare before you breed them, unless you are breeding only to tested-negative stallions.

It's true that only one of the spotting genes is a problem, but the tricky part is this - that gene can hide very well, especially if the horse also has spots on it from one of the other spotting genes. It can occasionally even hide on a horse that appears solid. So, yes, test them all, before breeding! A simple $50 test can save you a terrible heartbreak, not to mention a lost year of production for the mare. Better safe than sorry.

[Sally May]

TKR asks: "Regarding Milkie (and others) did they have any siblings that were born Palomino? I know that some "white" foals have cropped up in Kentucky at race breeding farms from known bloodlines -- what about that?"

White foals are something else, called sabino. It's a spotting (pinto) type gene that usually just gives "lots of chrome" but occasionally is expressed much louder and gives you some wild body spots or even, very rarely, covers the whole body with white.

Milkie did not have any palomino siblings, but his dam had only 4 foals. None of the others were
red-based ("ee") so they couldn't have been palomino. They were listed as bay, brown and black. The "brown" could have been a smoky black or brown-plus-cream, the "black" could have been a smoky black, and the "bay" could have been a buckskin (all buckskins are registered as bay). No way of knowing. The bay and black ones did not breed on, but the "brown" one did produce several foals. It would be interesting to track them down and see if there are any descendants around today that we could find photos of, for sure.

Glitter Please did have some palomino and buckskin siblings, at least 2 buckskins and one palomino. The palomino, Lemon Bits, has also produced palomino foals of her own. And by the way, both of the buckskins did race, and one went through the yearling sale, and nobody ever said a word about their color.

[Sally May]

About inbreeding, club foot allegations, etc. etc.......

This is what Fred wrote: "However, one of the concerns that I have had about the palomino TBs is the degree of inbreeding (due to the scarcity/rarity of the individuals) -and that "Milkie" is being inbred to quite closely. Other than his colour, what excellent characteristics did Milkie possess that would make him a desirable Sport Horse sire? This foot problem - a club foot?- of his referred to on Gold Hope Farm's site - was this a genetic thing? I am not trying to stir up anything, just asking a question that has been on my mind for some time. How concerned are the coloured TB breeders about the degree of inbreeding and to this particular horse? "

And Spot replied: "Fred - I think you took the alleged "foot problem" totally out of context."

I don't see any personal offense being implied, or taken, there.

However, later on, Fred writes: "reading your posts Spot often brings to mind the old phrase, "bullshit baffles brains"... you can quote all the statistics you want... but YOU are the one who misread, misunderstand,and took statements out of context."

Which frankly, I do find offensive, and I'm not even Spot. I can see how that wording would raise some hackles.

We've chewed over the "oddly shaped hoof" thing more than enough by now. It was not a "problem", just something unusual, and Milkie apparently did not pass it on himself, since nobody who owns horses from that line has seen anything unusual about their hooves. So, we can put that one to bed.

But back to Fred's original question. What excellent characteristics did Milkie have? Well, he was known for siring foals that were good movers and good jumpers. Many of them excelled as hunters, and his sons that went to stud also sired many good hunters. I'm sure your next question would be, what bad characteristics might come out of this line? I don't know of any, other than the fact that they were not particularly tall horses (mostly 15-16 hands) and if you wanted a 17-hander like some do, you might want to look elsewhere - or use a very tall mare.

As far as inbreeding in general, that's something that people get very defensive about. There is no universally-accepted definition of "inbreeding" and "linebreeding", as anyone can see by just glancing at the replies in this thread! (The Jockey Club gives no definition.) Basically all "inbreeding" means is that a particular ancestor appears more than once in the pedigree. Depending on how big a pedigree you are looking at, that could mean all horses are inbred, eventually, ha ha. But most people are looking at a 4-6 generation pedigree. "Linebreeding" usually means the same ancestor appears 3 or more times in a pedigree, but again, the definitions vary widely from place to place and person to person. Regardless, most people would probably agree that anything closer than 4x4 is "close" inbreeding, which is generally agreed to be potentially dangerous, and anything 4x4 or further back is considered no big deal, or a positive thing if the duplicated ancestor is a truly superior horse.

Close inbreeding, even what we would today consider incestuously close, is a good way to establish a breed type, and was common in the early days of all breeds. It's also commonly done in livestock and dogs as a way of quickly finding out whether there are any bad recessive genes lurking in your stock. To do that, one must be tough, willing to see faults if they occur and willing to immediately cull them out. Horse breeders are generally not willing to take that risk, since horses are more valuable and they produce so many fewer offspring. You aren't likely to find anyone purposely inbreeding anything closer than 2x3 in horses these days, and even that would be frowned on by racehorse breeders. Faults that are commonly known to result from too much inbreeding include small size, bad temperaments and poor fertility. Some breeders are willing to take that risk, if they are sure that the duplicated ancestor is a superior horse with no genetic faults to pass on, and the parents in question are superior individuals that complement each other. Usually it turns out fine, and if it doesn't, the foal is gelded, sold without papers, whatever, and becomes a 4H project or trail horse.

Anyway, to get back to Milkie. Yes, some people did inbreed to him when he was the only source of color around. There was one reason only for doing that -- to try and get a cremello. A few foals were 2x2 to Milkie (breeding half-brother to half-sister, as it were) and they have never been heard from again. A few more were 2x3 to Milkie. This seems to have worked out OK; at least the ones that are in public view, such as Guaranteed Gold, are perfectly nice horses. Guaranteed Gold obviously does not have size, temperament or fertility issues! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Would I have done it? No, but it turned out OK for them, and I wouldn't have any hesitation about breeding to him. Are people doing it now? I don't think so, not now that another dilute line is available. People can try for cremellos by crossing the Glitter Please and Milkie lines, and not have to worry about any possible (or perceived) negative results from inbreeding. On the other hand, as these horses get older, it will be possible to inbreed to Milkie in the 3x4 or 4x4 or further back range, and that would be a positive thing in my mind, as long as the parents were superior individuals and good sized. He was a very good sire of hunter/jumper types. It's not as though you'd be wanting him in the pedigree only because of a color gene he carried. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Little Indian]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nikita:


"Gold Horizon"
Nationally Ranked A/O Hunter and IHF Winner

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have a palomino TB mare at my barn named Gold Horizon...not sure how old she is, but her barn name is Halley (hailey, she's not very big, only about 16 or so hands...maybe this is the same one??

[Spot]

Neat Little Indian! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Has she shown A/O hunter in the past / present?

Do you by any chance have any pictures of her that you can share?

If you find out how old she is, we would probably be able to figure out if the was the one posted about

Thanks for the information!

Sally May - couldnt have said it better myself - thanks! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

:Spot:

[Little Indian]

I know that currently she is (or was...hasn't shown in a bit since her owner is w/o a trainer i believe) showing in the AAs...i can try to get a picture of her on friday (that is the soonest it will happen)...anybody have pictures of the A/O-IHF Gold Horizon? i can tell you guys if it is the same one.

[Spot]

I am pretty sure that it was Terry Brown that showed her (Showcase Limited in GA)

I'll email Terry and see what I can find out and let you know

Thanks!

:Spot:

[RTM Anglo's]

I have lurked here for a couple of years. I have also been a subject of some slams in the past. I don’t take any of it personal. In fact I laughed when I read the subject, as it was so ignorant, very silly. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Although Bridget didn’t think so.

It was in regard to the fact all my horses wear neck collars instead of halters in the field. The poster was on my site and looked at my boy and claimed he was wearing a cribbing strap. Ahahahah get a life…and learn to look at some horse magazines to see the difference in a collar and cribbing strap. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

This person really wanted to bash on a TB palomino and respectfully Milkie. Well Bridget bred my stud, and he is a fine boy. I think Issue of Gold is very under appreciated. She was defending her breeding, and I let her and kept silent. Enough said.

I love the Milkie line and researched several years before I decided on this line over GP. I bred Anglo-Arabs, hence I love the Arabian horse and it is my first love and the TB is second. I also love the palomino, and there is no gene in the PB Arab to produce this. It drives me nuts when I see any Arab Flaxen promo’d with palomino. It is impossible!

I first bred my Arab mare to Guaranteed Gold in his first foal crop, and got a beautiful filly. I call her Trixie, 18% Milkie, she’s two this year standing 15.2. Her feet are perfect; any horse owner would love them. Basically I trim them myself about 3 times a year, they wear even and never chip or crack. But she is half Arab.

My stallion 12.5% Milkie, I call him Titus also has very nice feet. I have ridden him mostly barefoot, although I did have to shoe him in the summer as the ground is hard and my riding area is very very stony. All his feet are the same size. With respect the average horse has smaller feet in the back then the front. I have bragged about his feet, as most TB’s I have seen are a piece of crap. His don’t flake, chip, crack, or wear uneven. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I guess I am used to seeing Arab feet, which are the hardest of all breeds in regard to density.

I take no offense with anything anyone has asked here. It is an open forum and the right to all to post. If you dislike a certain line of TB, so is it your right. To flame is also a right, but a waste of time. The people that love this line are not changed by these slams. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I also have 3 foals out of my stud this year; two palominos (colt and filly), and one black bay (filly). They are gorgeous and Titus has proven to me he is a very nice cross on the Arabian bred. So far their feet are nice.

Obviously, the future is the cross of my GG Filly to Titus. Yes, it will be the dreaded linebred horse. But you know “us” notorious Arabian owners…we inbred everything! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Ahahahhahaha. OH and the goal is a cremello …go figure.

Fred, I found nothing wrong with your questions, and laughed at your frustration. Sorry…I too get irritated when I post and another answers my post not as I intended. I don’t think this is negative promo for dilutes, although it is not positive. Ahahhahahaha

I thank many of you for your information on Milkie and his progeny. I will save it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

And yes, there are other reasons to breed a Milkie TB other than the wrapper. Titus is very pleasing in conformation and moves just as nice. He is still young and yet to prove himself, I have no fear he will do just fine.

[Interlude]

Firstly there is no such thing as a throwback, dilutes must have at least one dilute parent to produce a dilute (palomino/buckskin) now this is something I have just thought about but...maybe the dilutes and double dilutes could have come from Albino's and such? Just a wild stab in the dark as I really don't know how the dilutes and double dilutes come about..

[Nikita]

Gee Kinsella, for someone who wanted to stay away from the dilute and coloured TB's you're pulled up to the kitchen table just like the rest of us. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think you even baked the cookies!

Yeah dad did have some good advice at times. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But I'm sure his advice was directed, not only to the in your face controversial types, but to those who are a bit more sly. You know the kind that surprise the heck out of you when they bite; but the bite is still very deep and hurtful all the same. They too need to think about what they say about the competition.

btw was Doodlebug a favourite childhood pony or a nickname for a horse? It's very familiar.

Sally May - Excellent post and may I compliment you on your comprehension http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Brunhilde]

I have a picture of Gold Horizon...... at least, when I was given the picture I was told it was her! LOL, the reason for a slight doubt is because I don't remember who passed it on to me.... it may have been Donja Vaughn, and if that were the case, that would cast some doubt on it. But anyway, she's a beautiful mare, darkish palomino, not really dappled, lovely legs but maybe a tad long in the pastern, beautiful topline, a little short in the hip, she has a white coronet on the left hind and no other white on the legs, and what looks like a large star but could possibly have a thin stripe coming down from it too. She would be 9 years old now. What do you think, sound about right?

[Nikita]

Hi Interlude and welcome to the boards. You may want to read aurum's post on page 2 of this thread. Out of everything I've ever heard or read, this explanation makes the most logical sense.

And no, there are no albino's and genetically speaking, they couldn't come from albino's even if there were. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Nikita]

Brunhilde.. no idea, I've never seen her. But do you have that picture online anywhere so you can post a link to it? Maybe some of the others can identify her.

[Little Indian]

Brun...it actually does sound right...I will for sure get a picture of her this weekend!! She is a sweet mare and packs her AA rider around over fences and on trails...really cute cute cute mare...

[Kinsella]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nikita:
Gee Kinsella, for someone who wanted to stay away from the dilute and coloured TB's you're pulled up to the kitchen table just like the rest of us. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think you even baked the cookies! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nah, I am DEFINATELY staying away from the dilute/colored TB's. My only ties are to Goldmaker, and those are the bonds of loff. It's not his fault what happened, so I don't blame him for any of it. But I will certainly not be involved in them outside of posting on this BB when I feel the need. As for the cookies, well, I didn't want anyone to miss out on their CHOCOLATE!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>btw was Doodlebug a favourite childhood pony or a nickname for a horse? It's very familiar. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, no... But I used to play at my grandparents house in the dirt where my grandfather always told me "don't disturb the doodlebugs". Whatever those were! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif The word has stuck with me since then and I used it randomly to describe things or as I did in that post. But I had never thought of that until you asked! Thanks for bringing back those memories!

[ruthie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Amy:
There is nothing hidden about the cremellos in Ky... the folks that own them are not color breeders and don't care that they are cremellos. They are race breeders folks! Why haven't they come out and told the world?? Maybe they don't want to be hounded or maybe they just don't care about the color- just the race pedigree. Yes folks... it is only us color nuts that go gaga about this! THEY ARE MILKIE LINE HORSES.... so no new color lines out there. A couple of folks know who bred them... but they ain't tellin'! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think it was already established that another color breeder bought the older cremello filly. the breeders are keeping the other one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmmph...BS...it is being hidden. I did not ask who the breeders are, I did not ask who the farm was, I simply asked who the cremellos are...that means who sired them,I could care less who the
farm or the owners are, just the sire and dam. And as nutty as some of you colored breeders are...as indicated by your posts on the topic and since we are discussing this sooooo
reasonably, why not disclose who the sire and dams are...Aurum, Amy,and the fact that "some folks know" and that a "colored breeder bought the one filly" and that the owners are keeping the other says YES IT IS BEING HIDDEN. I doubt they are "race breeders" but even that is beside the point. The fact that they are keeping the other says...YES, THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY HAVE. They sold one to a "colored breeder" and again they are being advertised as "double registered" double registered WHAT Jockey Club and Cremello? Cause if the parents are both "black"????? SO YES I think lots is being hidden and sigh....so much for the honesty of breeders.

Frankly if I had discovered an unknown source of cremello's I would be advertising who in the hell I was going to breed them to so that I could start drumming up business for the foals.

For example, when GG went to Spot, she was proud to announce it...I would call that an HONEST BREEDER.

When Aurum bought RFF The Alchemist, she announced it publicly.

So why is this mysterious "colored breeder" hiding the parentage of the cremello filly? Like I said HIDING...............

[CenterlineFarm]

AAAGGHH!
This thread is driving me crazy!!!

The dilute Gene is a DOMINANT gene and an example of INCOMPLETE DOMINANCE - where it will ALWAYS show if it is there, but it will only MODIFY the color. It is statistically IMPOSSIBLE for it to have *hidden* for any length of time in ANY breeding population.


Milke and Glitter Please WERE NOT Full TB's people!!! I don't know if their mothers were crosses or what happened, but there is NON-TB Blood in there!!!

*pant* *pant*

And WHO CARES? In Milkie's case it was 40 years ago!! In Glitter Please it was - what - 22 years ago??
WHY are people making up stupid stories about how dilute TB's could have 'hidden' for years???
That is idiocy and we all know it!!

If you like them, breed to them! If you don't like them, then don't breed to them!

I personally like some of them and I don't care WHO was the great great great grandsire. It is the here and now that we need to worry about!!

edited to add...
by the way, I am NOT a color breeder but I might try it once, just for fun.

[Blueskidoo]

If one were dead set on finding out if Milkie and glitter please were really TB's, then it would be possible, though not easy. Simply find a horse that decends from the dam of milkie through the tail female line, and one that decends from the supposed grand dam of milkie and compare the midochondrial (I can't spell this) DNA, this would show if the dam was who she was supposed to be since these would be the same if they are related, and to check the sire, simply find a male that descends from the direct male line because the y chromozomes will be the same. In this way you can prove, or not that these horses parents are who they said they were, or not.

Of course finding those horses might be difficult, particularly in the female line, but hypothetically it is possible to find out if the parents were swiched to some extent. Of course if the mare on the papers was out of the correct dam, but by a different stallion than listed, this wouldn't be able to differentiate that.

[aurum]

CenterlineFarm, you did not understand it at all. HIDDEN is the cream gene on dark bay and in blacks, only very knowledgeable people can tell that this is a smoky black (a black with cream gene) or a dark buckskin and no dark bay. It can only really now detected by having the horse tested for the cream gene. There war no QH or such involved in Sylfou's French TB breeding and he IS a Palomino too! I will post two pictures and if you tell me that YOU see that this is a buckskin or a smoky black, well then you are the QUEEN of the cream gene!

[aurum]

Smoky Black as a baby, he looks exactly like a normal black baby is born, mousy grey.

[aurum]

now as a yearling, he is fully all black, just aside of a real black, which I have too, you can see that there IS a difference in the tone.

[aurum]

and now you go to this website:

http://www.fieldstonefarm.biz and look up their breeding stallion, which came from me and then tell me that YOU see that this IS a dark buckskin and no dark bay!

Here is another one of him as a 3 year old.

[Palomino Leopard WB]

Milke and Glitter Please WERE NOT Full TB's people!!! I don't know if their mothers were crosses or what happened, but there is NON-TB Blood in there!!!
_____________________________________________
You know I just have to disagree with this statement. Twenty years ago we did not have the internet to post pictures on, so I would think easily these horses existed. It woud be foolish to think that TB's decended from horses that had the dilute gene and did not carry it themselves. They were not hidden they were just mislabled as chestnuts with flaxen manes and tails or bays, even blacks. It is only recently that the JC has accepted Palomino as a colour. And there were perhaps no cremello's due to the two lines not being crossed intentionally. Or maybe there were and they were thought to be albino's and culled. How long ago was it that the JC accepted white TB's?
And how long have we had an understanding of what dilute genes even were?
Do I agree with this whole hidden secret cremello filly out of two black horses NO...but I suppose it is the breeders right to keep it a secret. I am sure with all things it will not remain a secret forever.

[CenterlineFarm]

Gwen you have gorgeous horses and I would love to own any one of them. You must have a happy glow every time you go look at them.

I have never denied that a creme gene in a smokey black or a dark buckskin can be overlooked on an individual basis. (By the way.. all these people who are saying 'well, I *think* she is smokey black, or I *think* she is a buckskin' about their own horse, do us all a favor and get the DNA test. It doesn't cost much and will make your horse more valuable anyways. And then post pics and tell us what they are!)

My point is (as stated a few pages back) that if this gene were in the TB population at large, then there should be many, many of these horses. There should have been some smokey cremes (if people bred two horses that are smokey black together unwittingly every other baby [statistically] will have been a smokey creme), perlinos, cremellos, buttermilk buckskins (my personal favorite color), palominos etc. There are not. (I cannot answer for Sylfou - perhaps there is another in the mix on him as well.) But you cannot deny the fact that there are ONLY two known lines of TB color producers. For a DOMINANT color gene, it should be widespread throughout the population at large. And it is most obviously not. Look at QH's, Saddlebreds, Connemara ponies, etc. Doesn't it seem just a tiny bit suspicious that there have only been 3 Palomino Tb's in the World?? (That are not directly descended from Sylfou (did he breed at all anyways??), Milkie and Glitter Please of course)

I do not know anything about the WB genetics for color. I have never even touched that because it is totally out of my research area. Apparently there is quite a lot of color there. I have no idea.

But pure TB's DO NOT and HAVE NEVER HAD the dilute gene. (Neither apparently do Arabs which makes sense since they are the basis for all TB's today.) I know some people wish it were not true. I know some people have come up with fantastic scenarios as to how it could have been 'missed' or 'not noticed' for over 300 years. But it does not make it true.

And quite honestly, if Milkie had QH in him, or Glitter Please had Saddlebred in him, it seems to have done nothing but improved the breeding line anyways. Their top lines are better, their temperaments are better, their substance is better, what could be better? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You know I just have to disagree with this statement. Twenty years ago we did not have the internet to post pictures on, so I would think easily these horses existed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And these horses are...where now? Have they all dissappeared within the last 5 years of internet and websites? Where are all these mis-labled horses? Why are there ONLY mislabeled Milkie and Glitter Please ancestors and decendents? If there have been generations of mislabeled TB's out there in the breeding population at large...I want to know where they are. I quite honestly have never seen or heard of one (that - again - is not related to the 2 stated horses). Heck, obviously the Jockey Club hadn't either. Why on earth would they not even have a color designation for such a dominant, 'common' gene?? I hardly think it is because they didn't know what one was. They have been around a lot longer than I have!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Palomino Leopard WB]

For instance to finish my last post...I just looked up the top side of one of my mares thru Bold Ruler...all the way back it dead ends into Godolphin Arabian obvioulsy other arabians as well, and then Fenwick Barb, as well as other barbs and Darcys Yellow Turk...
Now granted that is WAY back there...but isn't it logical that indeed some of these dilute lines kept reproducing? You only have a slight chance the dilute gene will continue to reproduce itself...
It's like saying the white gene, sabino or frame gene does not exist...they all do exist.

[aurum]

I still do not think that there is a QH or Saddlebred involved. Centuries ago when the British General studbook started to breed the TBs they used normal mares of their own breedings and bred them to the chosen sires for producing the TBs, so as we all know the TB was created in Great Britain and already there were the dilutes found, you can see them on some paintings and in some names as they were descriptive at these times.

Now back to the question why didn't we find more of the double dilutes and more dilutes? This is easy to explain, as it is because the cream gene is only herited at 50% of the time. At the beginnings of the TB breeding in Europe, the dark colors were favorised and so I would think if a "lighter" horse popped up, it was just not used for breeding on. A gene can get lost by not breeding for it. It took me 15 years to get the breeding stock of my todays Palominos and often I ended only with a chestnut, thanks to consequent breeding the chestnuts could be sold but it was hard to get the stock growing. Only by sticking to it and breeding for it, I could come to the stock I have today. So the "lighter" colored TBs that maybe survived the "do not breed for those" have been labled wongly into light bay and golden bay or chestnut as we all know. It would really be like finding a needle in the hay bale as we say here, to have a cremello or perlino born with such a small dilute gene pool. And I agree that I am certain that at times they would be just killed behind the barn in fear that this is a mutation and horrible to show to the public. Look at the Trakehner Pintos, they almost died out, it needed 20 years of breeding to get them back into the breed by using one or two lines that had survived in Poland. In Germany they died out because nobody wanted Pintos in the Trakehner breed and so they were not bred intentionally to get them. The same has happened to the TB dilutes. You can still see the animosity of some people for them. Only a few years back there was a picture of a horse auction in France and at the side of a black bay mare was a cremello foal. The foal sold for 18,000 Francs and they wrote that it was ugly and an Albino, probably a mutation! This was a TB auction and the foal was by Count Ivor if I recall well. So NO I am sure it has "hidden" as there are very few and disguised in black and brown or bay. Only today they are bred intentionally as people have learned to love the variety of the horse colors and patterns.

[CenterlineFarm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You only have a slight chance the dilute gene will continue to reproduce itself... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AAARGH!! This is EXACTLY what I am talking about!! It is NOT a slight chance. Once again it is a DOMINANT gene. You have a 50% chance that every heterozygous horse will throw the dilute gene modifier to its offspring. HUGE chance. Not slight.

Think of it as the grey gene. A grey horse will throw greys half of the time. Period. (If it is heterozygous of course).

Also, it is DARLEY'S Yellow Turk http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[aurum]

No CenterlineFarm, it is Darcy's Yellow Turk. And the chance IS very very slight as nobody bred for the light colors years ago, just read my post above.

Someone should find out if Count Ivor produced a dilute. When I have time I will dig for that article as I kept it somewhere in my files. But I think to remember it was Count Ivor or a son of his.

[Robby Johnson]

Wow, what an interesting thread. I am always in such awe at the knowledge of genetics that is shared here. I personally was pretty good at the Punnett Square in high school but that was just to determine if two brown-eyed individuals with recessive genes for blue eyes could have a blue-eyed child (they can, 25% probability). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Here's my observation - take it with a grain of salt and please do not consider it a bash.

While we're all talking about grandfather stories, I'd like to add one from mine. "If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's usually a duck."

It would have to be scientifically and genetically proven that these dilute gene horses are pure TB's before I would buy into the concept. Each one I see - lovely as it is - appears to have a little quality that doesn't say to me, "pure TB." Maybe it's the wider, coarser head and muzzle, or the massive hindquarter - but they don't look to me like a regular TB who had bleach dropped on him!

But I understand the need for them to be pure TBs. Otherwise they're just Palomino sport horses that are mostly TB and, indeed, are pure TB on paper. Since the JC had/has 300+ years of denying certain colors, to accomplish this feat - even though you may've slipped through the back door with an errant parent - is something significant.

And I would suspect if you got down to the nitty-gritty, you'd see other "shoe-in's" in the gene pool that had nothing to do with color! Remember, folks, this is horse-tradin'! It's no different than raising the child you had as a teenager as your daughter. If you believe it and say it, then no one else should doubt you, right?

To have built on it with existing bloodlines - bringing out these hidden and dilute genes to get loud expression of color *is* a testament to research and knowledge, and I don't think anyone dismisses this passion as irrelevant.

I don't think it's inappropriate to ask about the success of progeny where performance is concerned. I don't think it's inappropriate to respond with examples, or to not have any examples.

It is VERY obvious to everyone that you all are breeding for color, but it's also VERY obvious that you're selecting quality stock and your colorful youngsters have a good shot at a good performance career. So you're ahead of the curve where performance is concerned - that is a gamble only because it will now be up to you or to some really great owners to get these youngsters out and proving themselves.

I see two concurrent themes going on here and will try to summarize accordingly:

1. Were Milkie or Glitter Please full TB's?
2. Are Milkie or Glitter Please offspring performance horses if their color is normal?

If an existing performance record(s) are at the ready, it shouldn't be so hard to share. But if they're not, there's no harm in saying, "you know, not so much a huge performance base YET ... but we intend to change that."

Robby (a buckskin fan, just so you know ... less Quiksilver required but you get just as much dazzle!)

[DLM]

Okay my turn to jump in .. yes there is statistically a 50% chance of the dilute being contributed each time you breed a dilute BUT any breeder with dilute horses can tell you there is more to this than meets the eye. My palomino stallion contributes his dilute gene way more than at a 50% rate yet I know other palomino stallion owners who have a less than 50% rate. Am I just lucky?? Maybe but I don't think so. Think about merle canine coats(we also have smooth blue merle collies) if you breed two merles you have a strong chance of having deaf puppies. What does coat color have to do with ears!!!??? My point is as much as we want to study the genome and map all of them we can they still interplay in ways we do not understand. Guess we're not GOD yet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Another thing to think about is that TB race breeders don't tend to make the same crosses over and over year after year.

[Nikita]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
It would have to be scientifically and genetically proven that these dilute gene horses are pure TB's before I would buy into the concept. Each one I see - lovely as it is - appears to have a little quality that doesn't say to me, "pure TB." Maybe it's the wider, coarser head and muzzle, or the massive hindquarter - but they don't look to me like a regular TB who had bleach dropped on him! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or "HER"! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Could it be simply because we are talking about only two lines and they -just happen- to be substancial? Would you feel better if those two happened to be skinny and fine with narrow chests? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Crikey, then we'd get a whole different group thinking they're not good enough to live. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And I would suspect if you got down to the nitty-gritty, you'd see other "shoe-in's" in the gene pool that had nothing to do with color! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_RED">BINGO!</span> I've attached a picture of Special Lady (1996) aka Carly. She's just simply a big girl. (I understand how she feels http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif ) Look at the foot on her! But nobody that I know is denying that she's full TB - because she's a boring old chestnut? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Milkie and Glitter Please are being put under a magnifying glass here and the bottom line is there are some fine TB's, there are some substancial TB's... but they ARE TB's. Blond haired green eyed people may not be too common, but they are out there and as far as I know, they are not part alien. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I think as the ability to further and further isolate specific genes, one day we may be able to figure it out 99%. Because of the 'mix' in the origins of the breed and the fence hoppers from way back then that had nothing to do with dilutes, I think conversations like this will still be taking place after we're all long gone.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't think it's inappropriate to ask about the success of progeny where performance is concerned. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that was ever an issue.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If an existing performance record(s) are at the ready, it shouldn't be so hard to share. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, not a problem and done.

Now if I could just find a palomino that poops less. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Norsire]

RTM Anglo's/Holly, Welcome! I had not idea you lurked here, other than when I alerted you to the Palominolover thread a while back. I'm so glad you posted here. I check your site from time to time and have seen your lovely foals by Titus. Very nice group of kids!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Orgininal post by RTM Anglo's All his feet are the same size. With respect the average horse has smaller feet in the back then the front. I have bragged about his feet, as most TB’s I have seen are a piece of crap. His don’t flake, chip, crack, or wear uneven.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I must admit, my stallions and my mare only get trimmed about 3 times a year too! They wear so even, when we do the babies and other horses, we pull them out and the farrier, says "well they look good and don't need a trim today." They have GREAT feet and are very nicely shaped and do wear very evenly. I do trim my foals ever 4 weeks to ensure they grow properly and more for the training of it even if they are just rasped on a bit for the education. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[vineyridge]

I still don't understand why the cream gene affects the chestnut mane and tail so much more than the body. Most Palominos have cream/white manes and tails. Why?

I just think it's a lot more complicated than a single gene on top of chestnut.

[Amy]

Oh Nikita... but with all that white there must be soome QH or APHA stock in there somewhere! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I was thinking the same thing as you... my black mare has a huge butt and gaskins! I think most would consider her at least part QH before they ever guessed full TB. The same could be said about a grey mare I used to own. And yet they are both full Tb's with JC papers and DNA testing!

[All points]

Ok, I tried to stay away. For all those who keep saying there is no way the dilution gene can be hidden or what ever....... Here is a fact for you:
Several years ago I opened my Blood Horse, they were covering the Keeneland November Mixed sale. Low and behold, there is a picture of Easy N Gold who sold for $800,000. In foal to(I think) Danzig. Guess what she is most definitly a PALOMINO! She is registered as a chestnut. Who knows how many dilute offspring she has had? She is currently at Lanes End Farm. I think I kept that issue, I will try to find the picture, and send it to some one to post. The dilutes are out there, the racing people could careless about what color they are, and didn't give press releases every time one was born. Its only the Show/Sport Horse people that care. I bet there are a lot more out there than any one realizes.

[Spot]

Robby - there really is no STANDARD Thoroughbred *type* out there, and anything that doesnt fall within the parameters of that "TYPE" cannot be considered a Thoroughbred, or should be held up to scrutiny and questionned.

Ive posted a picture of Airdria Lace - a VERY substantial TB mare by Airdrie Apache. I defy ANYONE to look at her and say that the first breed to pop into their mind would be "TB". No way!

You know - quite honestly - I DONT care if Deer Lodge was Milkie's sire. Dont give a hoot in any way, shape or form ... Nor do I care if his sire WAS a Quarter Horse or something else.
Deer Lodge, with his 6 lifetime foals, can hardly be said to be a strong influence - for better or worse - on the TB breed as a whole.

What I "DO" care about, is if my foal descends from the Milkie line itself - however that line came to be. Milkie HAS produced some fabulous hunters, line horses, conformation stars and stakes winning race horses and his sons and daughters seem to be carrying on that tradition that he started. Generation after generation.

Yes - as someone stated - the Milkie horses are not know for being giants, but through this next generation of sons and daughters, they are consistently producing +16hh athletes which is generally good enough for about 90%+ or better of the market.

We can speculate and guess and conjecture all we want but in the end - what does it REALLY matter? If saying they were full Thoroughbreds was good enough for the Jockey Club, and enough to get them JC papers in their breed registry, what difference is it if I or anyone else "thinks" differently? And what could we actually PROVE in the end, except for nothing?

Does anyone, in all their naivete, honestly feel that every single horse born on the planet in EVERY single breed registry is 100% by that stallion and out of that mare??? Who the heck knows and who cares, 30 and 40 and 60 years later.

Just for fun, I tried to get hold of Gary McLeavy (who was the breeder of Milkie) just to see what he could add to this discussion 39 years later. I have hit a dead end - who knows if Gary is even still alive, let alone what state he may live in now. He would be about the only one that could actually give a valid opinion on all of this. No one else. No matter how much we all like to speculate!

All Points - if you email the picture to me, I'll post it.
truecolours@cogeco.ca
Interestingly enough, I pulled her up on DelMar and she shows no foals by Danzig so maybe she aborted???

:Spot:

[Amy]

ruthie- I did not say they did not know what they had but that they did not necessarily care about the color.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> again they are being advertised as "double registered" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... had not heard this before but either they are being hidden or advertised... which is it?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>mysterious "colored breeder" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> She was identified earlier in this thread. She does not get on the internet at all like the others you have mentioned. Also the other examples you mentioned were folks buying or standing stallions. Of course they advertise... because they are or will be standing those guys. Most people don't advertise their mares nearly as much. There are other cremello and perlino mares out there that are not discussed at all.

[All points]

Spot: I am digging through boxes now. I am going on memory as being in foal to Danzig. I know for a fact she is Palomino and sold for 800K. I was so stunned to see her color, it sticks in my mind more than the covering sire. Interestingly enough, in the Thoroughbred Times a couple of years ago, theres a picture of an exspensive Sunday Silence weanling. Sure looked like a buckskin to me. Registered as bay. I hope I kept that one, will try to dig that one up too.

[Painted Wings]

The creme dilute gene can certainly be masked. I dare anyone to be able to tell that any of the horses on this webpage have the creme gene by just looking at them.

http://www.doubledilute.com/smokyblack.htm

Yes and although the punnet square analysis says that offspring should be 50% dilute a friend of mine's smokey black stallion has had 11 foals and only two are obviously dilute. Another three of them could possibly be dilute but are dark brown/black and have not been tested.

[Amy]

AND the punnett square is an average over a large sample. Many of these horses may not have reproduced often. I have a friend with a heterozygous toby stallion... she has had 8 foals by him and all are solid. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

OTOH Proud Meadows owned a palomino QH mare and she produced 2 palomino paints (chestnut stallion...one filly and one colt), 2 buckskin Friesian crosses (black obviously) and 1 buckskin Andalusian cross (black as well). I have found this absolutley amazing that she passes her cream gene so often. To date I am not aware of any non dilute foals that she has produced. She is also DEFINITELY a paly and not a cremello.

[Nikita]

Yeah I had a hard time convincing my neighbour - who breeds paints and quarters - that she was a TB. Actually this whole neightbourhood was cows and quarters but slowly some other TB and sporthorse people are starting to move in. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm not alone anymore!

The day after she arrived I had her turned out into a little field by the road. The neighbour drives by and hits the brakes as he checks her out. He backs up and comes in kind of with a 'ha ha, you've finally seen the light' comment about the super nice Paint mare I have. I can't remember how many times he said "there is NO way that's a TB!". I had to give him her race tape before he'd believe me.

Vegas was easier because he's a typical build, tall 'like a TB' and he is thoroughbred-y looking. Madison? They're all still talking about that purdy palomino paint filly at that place beside Kathy's. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

But bottom line, even with all the tank-size good pasture was enjoyed and preggo pictures of Carly that I've posted over time, not one person has questioned the fact that she is a TB. It's only the dilutes that seem to cause controversy. At least most of it is a good and interesting discussion and we've brought posters like Milynda out of hiding and met a few new people. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif All in all a good thing.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Well, I think it could be either. It could be that the creme gene has been almost eliminated because before DNA/bloodtyping, breeders may have been shocked to see the foal born with that coloring, and simply felt that it may have been "farmer joe's" light colored horse down the street that got loose one night, and got to their mare. No way to prove it, so they just sold it cheaply/didn't bother to try to register it. Many possible lines could have very well been eliminated like this.

OR, it could have been that "farmer joe's" stallion really did get loose that night. BUT, I am sure that happened to MANY of the TB mares. We see SO many TBs that don't look like tbs. We now even label them as "distance horse" or "sprinter type" (Yep, I'm thinkin 1/4 mile sprinter type - just look at those BUTTS http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif) NO ONE is in their face?!?!

I had 2 horses come here for boarding a few years ago. Came together, but 2 different owners - bought from different sources, different ages. Their contracts said TB mare by Full Circle, and Hanoverian gelding by Eminence. Well, they arrived, and the one with the big honker of a head, took off across the paddock in that HUGE big jointed moving suspension - absolute WOW. The other with the very pretty head, had not quite the daisy cutter, but definitely no where near the mover. Well, when I took a closer look, they had the wrong body parts. I'm thinking that TB was by a Hanoverian that jumped the fence http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

But, you know what - no one cares. You can't KNOW about ANY of the pedigrees pre DNA. The jockey club may have very well refused to register Palominos because they believed the color was proof that SOMEONE had jumped the fence. They just couldn't prove any of the other ones - YOU ALL KNOW THEY MUST EXIST.

We just have to accept that the dilutes are probably as much TB as any other TB on the planet. Accept it and move on. NONE of your TBs are probably pure.

[aurum]

Spot,
as for the DelMar site and that Palomino mare not having a Danzig foal there, there are not always every foal entered into the data base. I found some missing myself. It would need to ask the JC to get an answer if she had a foal or not, the DelMar site is not complete.

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> We just have to accept that the dilutes are probably as much TB as any other TB on the planet. Accept it and move on. NONE of your TBs are probably pure.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AMEN ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

:Spot:

[Nikita]

I FINALLY figured it out!
Robby did it.
The dilute gene. The lack of height. The heavier build.
I can rest now. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Robby Johnson]

Nikita, that was evil! ROFL!

Robby

[Nikita]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Quinn]

Evil? Perhaps.

Hysterically funny? Absolutely!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[Norsire]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
OR, it could have been that "farmer joe's" stallion really did get loose that night. BUT, I am sure that happened to MANY of the TB mares. We see SO many TBs that don't look like tbs. We now even label them as "distance horse" or "sprinter type" (Yep, I'm thinkin 1/4 mile sprinter type - just look at those BUTTS http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif) NO ONE is in their face?!?!

We just have to accept that the dilutes are probably as much TB as any other TB on the planet. Accept it and move on. NONE of your TBs are probably pure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now Robby, a question for you do yo believe that only dilute stallions (like Farmer Joe's) jumped the fence to create dilutes? Or is it possible Farmer Joe had a plain old bay stallion who also jumped the fence and just maybe your Tiamo has some QH and/or Arab in there too way way back? Or is it only dilute stalilons that jumped the fence to get to the TB mares? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
If, you believe this is how Milkie came along then maybe there are alot of plain bays and chestnuts with QH parents too, but no one questioned the big butts becasue they were plain bays and chestnuts so they must be 100% TB before blood typing or DNA.
If, you believe this only happened with dilutes........

[Amy]

I would love to be able to post pictures....

I had 2 mares that were both full Tb. Both mares had the same sire. Both mare's dam's were sired by the same sire. So what they have 3/4 of the genetics from the same lines. They are like night and day. The older mare is 16hh, very leggy and definitely a TB. The younger mare was 15.2hh on a good day and could have easily passed for an appendix. They are 15 now and 12... so I am not sure what type of DNA they did back then.

My point... that there is variety in the Tb and they can still be full tb (or even closely related!)

[Fairview Horse Center]

Amy - that smaller Appendix looking mare may have inherited the genes from her great graddaddy - the one that jumped the fence http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Norsire]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Original post by Amy My point... that there is variety in the Tb and they can still be full tb (or even closely related!) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My point too!!! It seems the way this thread as gone, some only believe dilute stallion jumped the fence!! If, dilutes jumped the fence so did the plain colored horses! I believe there is quite a varity of TB types, short, tall, big butt, no butt, grey hound look, bull dog look, and ect.