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jennywho
Jun. 10, 2010, 11:17 PM
A recent experience with a horse that I sold got me thinking about this.

I was raised around guns, know how to use one, etc. However, I don't particularly like them and have chosen to let the rest of my family be the firearm collectors.

Long story short, having a gun and being able to use one made it so that a friend was able to put a horribly suffering mare out of her misery and save her unborn foal. Waiting for the vet to get there would have resulted in the loss of both mare and foal and more suffering for the mare.

I know I could never shoot a predator (I don't even like killing spiders), but in a situation like that or last spring when I waited an hour for my vet to come put down a yearling filly that had no hope, I think would be different.

Anyhow, just curious. Obviously if I choose to keep a gun at the farm I will get refresher training.

DandyMatiz
Jun. 11, 2010, 12:10 AM
Don't have the farm anymore, I board now, but yeah, still have it, and when move back out to the farm.. will take a refresher. As you said, not even just in case of predators (though for that, though I prefer to scare them), but in case I need to use it for "humane" purposes. No sense letting an animal suffer needlessly if you don't need to.

EiRide
Jun. 11, 2010, 08:58 AM
No guns for me. I live in huntin' country, and if it came to it I am sure I could drive around and bang on doors and one of the folks in the area would come do a mercy killing in the rare event that I would need that.

Grasshopper
Jun. 11, 2010, 09:03 AM
No guns for me. I live in huntin' country, and if it came to it I am sure I could drive around and bang on doors and one of the folks in the area would come do a mercy killing in the rare event that I would need that.

This. I trust the proficiency of my friends/colleagues with guns more than my own, and my neighbor works for Fla Dept of Law Enforcement, so I have options without having to actually own a gun and keep it in the house.

tidy rabbit
Jun. 11, 2010, 09:08 AM
No guns for me. I live in huntin' country, and if it came to it I am sure I could drive around and bang on doors and one of the folks in the area would come do a mercy killing in the rare event that I would need that.

Ditto this.

DLee
Jun. 11, 2010, 09:13 AM
We don't either, as we'd both need classes on it before we would have one, and we just seem to never do that.

monstrpony
Jun. 11, 2010, 09:14 AM
No guns for me. I live in huntin' country, and if it came to it I am sure I could drive around and bang on doors and one of the folks in the area would come do a mercy killing in the rare event that I would need that.

Another.

Janet
Jun. 11, 2010, 09:42 AM
Well, I HAVE one (two actually, a rifle and a shotgun) but they have not been fired in oer 20 years, and then only at tatgets. If I have ammunition, I don't know where it is.

wildlifer
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:01 AM
Nope, won't have them. But I work for a wildlife agency, so lots of redneck friends who could be there quickly should I need to dispatch a suffering animal.

CatOnLap
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:03 AM
no guns allowed.

JSwan
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:17 AM
I think it's rather hypocritical to not have one but think it's ok to use the word "redneck" to describe those you'd call in your time of need or great sorrow.

I've had to dispatch gravely wounded (one possibly rabid or distempered) animals and frankly, it's not exactly a fun thing to do. In fact, it's quite terrible and sad; especially if the animal is in horrific pain.

Auto collisions come to mind. Thanks for running over an animal, leaving it in my front yard bleating in agony, and not even stopping. It's really a lot of fun to see the animal's broken and bleeding body, feel its pain and fear, and then put a bullet in its head.

Just sayin'. I'm not the redneck.

vacation1
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:22 AM
I think it's rather hypocritical to not have one but think it's ok to use the word "redneck" to describe those you'd call in your time of need or great sorrow.

Oh, come on. These days, half the time when someone says "redneck" they mean "My good old pal with REAL country values like all us Americans used to have, gosh dernit."

JSwan
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:23 AM
Not on this board. Not unless the person places it in context.

saje
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:32 AM
If 13 acres and 7 horses count as a farm, then I am a farm owner who does not own a gun, and has never fired one other than a BB gun when I was a kid (and I'm a loooong way from bein' a kid - age wise anyhow :p).

I'm another who has plenty of gun owning neighbors and friends, I know I could get someone much more capable than I to do an emergency euthanization (if that's a word).

Rubyfree
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:35 AM
I'm looking forward to acquiring redneck status, myself.

I am not a fan of guns but have every intention of owning at least a shotgun and rifle when we have a farm. I'm sort of surprised that there are this many folks who don't have one, honestly.

wildlifer
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:38 AM
Come on. These guys even describe themselves as redneck. It's faster to type than "hunting/fishing types who wear camo and have lots of guns." Geez.

theoldgreymare
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:47 AM
I could not be without a gun on the farm. Aside from the possibility of predators and intruders , I think it is a good idea to have one in case of extreme injury to a horse or other animal (like the deer that took up residence near our barn this winter with a broken leg and shoulder). Hopefully, I will never have to put a horse down like that but in the event of a severe injury, I would be able to do it rather than wait for the vet while the animal suffers. I'd rather live with that memory than drive around banging on doors or phoning people looking for a sympathetic person to come do my dirty work.

danceronice
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:52 AM
I think it's rather hypocritical to not have one but think it's ok to use the word "redneck" to describe those you'd call in your time of need or great sorrow.


Amen to that. The snobbery is insulting. And possibly you could just say "neighbors", rather than making a long commentary about people who hunt and fish?

No, I don't have a gun right now. At some point, I need to take the course and get my CCW (I live in a shall-issue state) as I prefer handguns to long guns and am a better shot with them.

clue1005
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:55 AM
We wouldn't be without them. Of course, my husband is a gunsmith so it comes with the territory :)

Gryhnd
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:56 AM
We've been living in the "country" with horses at home for two yrs now. Do not have a gun, have never had a gun/shot a gun/been around a gun, don't like guns/hunting, and would need ample training. Though I will say I'm surprised others also said they don't have guns. Sometimes I get the impression we are the only ones not in the city that don't have one. When we moved here, the locals (ie service people, ex-neighbor) all said we should have a gun. But it may be just their lifestyle - they've always had one, their parents always had one...

However, DH feels we need/should have one so I'm sure he'll buy one eventually. I think his concerns are protecting us and our pets from predators (human and animal). However, he should also have training.

We are off the main road and only have/know two neighbors, both of them have guns so I suppose if they were home, they might be able to help us out in an emergency, but otherwise we don't have any resources. I will say we have learned the vet services here, wrt emergencies, stink, so this is a good point the OP has brought up and something we should definitely consider, because we'd never get a vet here quickly or even at all, in an emergency. They just don't really want to come to the farm, they'd rather you bring the horse to them, and horses are not their main practice anyway :(

SmokenMirrors
Jun. 11, 2010, 11:26 AM
We own guns and have a 37 acre farm. As JS Swan said...we came upon a large doe left in the middle of the road to die as some yahoo hit and left. Oh and I know they had damage to the vehicle due to what was laying around the poor doe. She was taken out of her misery quickly and efficiently thanks to the husband who does carry all the time.

As for the redneck comment, it was ignorant. I am an equestrian rider or cowgirl if you want to split hairs, and never really liked the title.

When I am out riding alone, I normally carry a .9mm Glock with me and I open carry so I don't have to have I.D. and my concealed carry certification on me. One never knows when you may need it. As for shooting my horse..I hope and pray I never am in the situation or position to do so and to those who have had to make that heartbreaking decision, my hat is off to you.

We have had coyotes right on the edge of our property and chasing animals across our pasture...should the need arise to shoot one or something in my barn that is threatening myself, my grand daughter, horses, or person, yes, I will shoot it. One thing to think about...if you DO carry a gun or have one on your person..if you pull it be damn sure you can pull the trigger.

SimpsoMatt
Jun. 11, 2010, 11:44 AM
I don't own one, but I think I probably should.

It might not be reasonable to count on your neighbors for euthanasia. Killing an animal is not fun, even when it's obviously the right thing to do. Asking an uninvolved person to do an unpleasant task that you're not prepared to do yourself might be a little too much.

A few years ago, when I was riding around the farm, I found a strange dog who must have had his back broken by a cow. He was lying on the ground, moving his front end around, barking and snapping, but unable to move his hindquarters. There was no way I could get my hands on him to try to help him without being bitten, which I wasn't willing to risk for a strange dog with unknown rabies status. And realistically, there probably wasn't anything that could be done to help him other than putting him down.

So I rode home and went searching for a neighbor with a gun. I found one who didn't seem interested in going out and killing a dog, but was willing to lend me his shotgun. I drove back with the gun and found the dog right where I left him, in the same condition, which made it pretty obvious that he was unable to move, so I shot him. But you can't always count on finding someone else willing to do that.

Rhyadawn
Jun. 11, 2010, 11:57 AM
Don't own a farm but I do have a rifle and some other assorted weapons should the need arise. My dad jokingly calls it my "Ruger babysitter." He also gave me a framed picture of a woman target shooting, and at the bottom it says "if the dogs don't get you, I will." That is hanging on my porch. A little "out there" but it was a gift.

5 years ago I was out at my cousins house with my dog. The house had steps out the back from the second story, and that was the only way in and out of her apartment. I was leaving, going down the stairs and the dog was walking in front of me. He slipped, rolled down the full set of stairs. His pelvis was shattered. My cousin didn't have anything suitable, and I had to call my dad to humanely put my dog down. I never want to go through that again. It was over 30 minutes and I waited with my dog's head in my lap :cry: Never again. If for no other reason than that I will always have a firearm at home.

BeeHoney
Jun. 11, 2010, 12:13 PM
I am a farm owner and I do own a gun and my husband has several. I am in the process of learning to handle and shoot it, more as just a general skill that could be useful in a crisis, not specifically for any farm related purpose. Honestly, I'm not sure I could shoot an animal...however, since we run a farm with horses and livestock I have a well stocked farm medicine cabinet, and if there ever was an animal in distress and the vet was not immediately available I would be able to make it comfortable until someone else could get to the scene. Maybe it's just me, but I can't imagine myself going around shooting things, I would need a lot more experience... Now, my husband is very comfortable with guns and does occasionally shoot a skunk or possum, but we try to avoid using firearms on the farm unless there is no other reasonable option.

BTW, I certainly would NOT expect every other farm owner to be comfortable with my approach, I only mention it as an option for a farm owner with some veterinary experience. Overall, I think it is a good idea to have some kind of a plan for when something terrible happens.

Daydream Believer
Jun. 11, 2010, 12:31 PM
We have three rifles...no handguns. We have a muzzleloader (Hawkins), a 303 Enfield...old Army rifle, and a 22. I haven't fired any of them in years but I'm glad to have them just in case I need them.

Mozart
Jun. 11, 2010, 12:33 PM
I am debating the same thing myself. My father hunted so we had shotguns and rifles around the house as I was growing up (not lying around, he was very cautious and everything was locked up).

Currently have a seven acres farmette and I don't have a gun. I am not a big fan of casual gun ownership. Having a gun is a big commitment and so many people are too casual about it.

Thus far I have not felt the need to have one in case of emergency euthanasia, I have a few vet friends, hunting neighbours, police officer friends and neighbours, I feel pretty confident that I could find someone to do the deed on pretty short notice.

However we have bought property in a much more isolated area. I wonder about security and have considered it but realistically speaking, not too many crack heads or gang members are wandering the back roads of the Canadian prairie.

There have been the very occasional incidents of prison escape but those really are few and far between. And never in winter ;)

However, current Canadian gun laws (IIRC, has been a while since I needed to know this) requires gun and ammunition to be kept separate and locked. So, gun has to either have a trigger lock or be in a locked cabinet and the ammo must be locked separately away. How useful is that in case of an intruder? Maybe if he phoned first to let me know he is on the way over.

I'm thinking a large intimidating dog and a cell phone are probably more useful for security from bad guys.

Wildlife...another matter. I prefer a live and let live approach but I appreciate they might not always share my view. Haven't completely decided against it yet.

MistyBlue
Jun. 11, 2010, 12:42 PM
I'm looking forward to acquiring redneck status, myself.

If you work outside without wearing a full brimmed hat, you *are* a redneck.

Redneck just means someone who labors/works outside...where the back of your neck tends to sunburn. (along with the rest of the whole farmer's tan look ;) ) It literally does mean having a red neck.

And it's used incorrectly all the time to denote anyone from white trash to hillbilly to ignorant to inbred. (or for us horse folks, linebred :lol: ) But yep, it was coined as an insult anyways. It was considered menial or low class to have to work a physical job outside.

I personally prefer having an outside physical labor job and a red neck. (and tan arms and face and pasty pale rest of me...okay, that part is really not my preferrence) IMO, much preferrable to having a huge arse and jiggly parts from sitting on my tuckus all day in a cubicle.

Oh wait, that's rude. :D :winkgrin: (totally kidding)

FWIW...a safer way to term a hunting/fishing type person is as an outdoorsman. If the person is also anti-government, lives on a "compound" and has an arsenal rather than a few firearms then the correct term is Oh Crap, Gotta Move Away From Psycho Neighbor. Although they prefer Survivalist. :cool:

And yes, I have firearms. Main reason for keeping them now is for humane purposes. As self protection...well, I'm in CT and it's a buttload of paperwork and lawsuits if you shoot another human. And if the other human has a machete, machine gun, rocket launcher, is attacking you and has a bunch of scalps hanging around his neck and you shoot him...well, you'll probably get a lighter sentence than a serial killer but you'll also probably still get time because that psycho's momma never got him violin lessons when he was a toddler or some such crap. So no, not owner for Rambo purposes overall. :)

But for human purposes for dispatching fatally or horribly injured animals of any type...yes. Because frankly it's the most humane thing to do *if* you know how and *if* you're able to do it emotionally. And as JSwan says, it sucks big time and it hurts big time and you never get used to it with a blase attitude. But it's the right thing to do if you're able to. You just feel like crap about it afterwards.

But for those who don't keep a firearm that's also not unusual either. Times have changed drastically since gun ownership was a common and acceptable and perfectly normal everyday thing. Nowadays it's politically incorrect to even admit to knowing how to handle a firearm. To own one is like stating you're a violent gang-banger wannabe. Few people these days have grown up around firearms or view them as a normal non-violent hobby or as a tool that's extremely useful outside of a city. Many folks' only knowledge of guns is what they see on the news or in movies, and that's all violent.

There isn't any stigma in owning a firearm and there isn't any stigma in not owning a firearm. We all do what's comfortable for ourselves. But for those who might be interested in becoming comfortable with one, seriously consider joining a gun club, hunt club or taking a course in firearm handling and safety. There's an entire spectrum of really fun sports and competitions you can get involved with through firearms that will help you become proficient with them while you have an absolute blast practicing. Not to mention that most gun folks in gun clubs and at competitions are a ton of fun and contrary to popular belief...they're normal, soft spoken down to earth people who will probably become close friends. :)

Alagirl
Jun. 11, 2010, 12:49 PM
Ah, well, in the last decade or so (nearly 2 by now :eek:)
Redneck is defined as 'glorious absence of sophistication'
and that, my dear friends, is universal! :cool:

tabula rashah
Jun. 11, 2010, 12:52 PM
I don't own one and never plan on it.

MistyBlue
Jun. 11, 2010, 12:57 PM
Ah, but what if the person does have firearms, lives on a farm (or farmette), hunts, goes fishing, drives a pickup and tractor, works on their own pickup and tractor and actually has a red neck from working outside all the time and yet also can serve high tea properly? :winkgrin: :confused: :winkgrin:

Alagirl
Jun. 11, 2010, 01:00 PM
Ah, but what if the person does have firearms, lives on a farm (or farmette), hunts, goes fishing, drives a pickup and tractor, works on their own pickup and tractor and actually has a red neck from working outside all the time and yet also can serve high tea properly? :winkgrin: :confused: :winkgrin:

doesn't mean you have to be unsophisticated at all times, temporary qualifies you (I mean temporary unsophisticated moments do qualify one as redneck! ) :winkgrin:

TheJenners
Jun. 11, 2010, 01:06 PM
I don't live on a farm (anymore) and I own two handguns, but that's because I carry concealed. My boyfriend, who lives with me and no longer on a farm, owns...um...four? I think? Two handguns, a rifle and a shotgun, I think. There might be another lurking around.

Have I ever had to shoot an animal to put it down? Not yet. Almost did one day when I came upon a beagle, with collar and leash, that had been hit on the highway and was dying, but not quickly. I was on the phone with my Sgt to ask permission, when another driver drove by, and too busy staring at the cop on the side of the road instead of the road he/she was driving on, ran over the poor thing again and did the deed.

Janet
Jun. 11, 2010, 01:11 PM
Ah, but what if the person does have firearms, lives on a farm (or farmette), hunts, goes fishing, drives a pickup and tractor, works on their own pickup and tractor and actually has a red neck from working outside all the time and yet also can serve high tea properly? :winkgrin: :confused: :winkgrin:
And knows that "high tea" is a working class meal!

MistyBlue
Jun. 11, 2010, 01:17 PM
Ah yes, but I'm an American. Of English persuasion, but an American. So we don't have classes. ;)

And there simply isn't time or reason on a farm to have cream tea or light tea. If we serve tea, it's dinner tea. :winkgrin:

FWIW...I can serve all three. Just never have reason for the other two unless it's a special occasion.

wendy
Jun. 11, 2010, 01:22 PM
is it possible to get hold of one of those bolt-guns to keep on hand for emergency euthanasia? sounds a lot safer than keeping guns and ammo lying around just in case.

Janet
Jun. 11, 2010, 01:24 PM
Great. So many peple think the one with fancy cakes and no substance is "high tea".


Point being that the British equivalent of "redneck" would be perfectly comfortable with "high tea".

rivenoak
Jun. 11, 2010, 01:49 PM
Thank you JSwan & MistyBlue.

To many people: I highly suggest reading a book called The Redneck Manifesto.

Rather enlightening that while Americans have PC'd almost out of existence the use of other denotative shorthand for other classes/races/groups, the white outdoorsman, assumed to be of a low socio-economic group, can still be called a redneck in public. :mad:

Yes, the author has an angry tone and sometimes this gets tiresome, but the book is nevertheless something worth reading. I laughed out loud quite a bit.

And, I prefer to call them sh!tkickers, myself. ;)

JSwan
Jun. 11, 2010, 02:10 PM
Ah, but what if the person does have firearms, lives on a farm (or farmette), hunts, goes fishing, drives a pickup and tractor, works on their own pickup and tractor and actually has a red neck from working outside all the time and yet also can serve high tea properly? :winkgrin: :confused: :winkgrin:


You're a Virginian. :D

theoldgreymare
Jun. 11, 2010, 02:12 PM
And, I prefer to call them sh!tkickers, myself. ;)

Funny, that's what the locals here call us!

JSwan
Jun. 11, 2010, 02:13 PM
Seriously though - if wildlifer meant no offense by using the term, I don't take offense.

But I reserve the right to bring up this thread this fall when hunting season starts.

Sportsmen/gun owners are not your source for free euthanasia, nor are we your pest exterminators. You do not have the right to spit on us and then expect us to magically know how to humanely dispatch your horse, goat or dog, and to also be available upon demand.

In other words, we're NOT sin eaters.


wendy - a bolt action .22 is a pretty typical and versatile firearm for farm use. It's also very easy to care for. If you're curious I'd suggest looking up your nearest gun range and paying them a visit. More than likely they'll offer instruction by certified instructors, and also be able to guide you towards the most appropriate weapon to purchase if you're interested.

But shooting a paper target is not the same as shooting a living being; even one that requires immediate euthanasia.

Go Fish
Jun. 11, 2010, 02:23 PM
I grew up on a ranch and shotguns were standard issue. Everyone owned one. I shot skeet for many years and still own a 12- and 20- gauge shotgun. They're buried in the house and I haven't used them in years. DH hates having guns in the house, but I can't part with them. I fully intend to take up skeet again, particularly now that I have some free time. We have a gun club locally where I can go play.

I couldn't shoot anything to put it out of it's misery. Although my Dad hunted, I could never participate. Bambi syndrome, I guess.

I don't think I could even shoot an intruder. I'd have to hit them with a frying pan or something. Besides, it would take me 10 minutes to pull the shotgun out, load it and fire. My aim's pretty good, though. I won a lot of turkeys in my youth.

Meshach
Jun. 11, 2010, 02:25 PM
I don't have a farm but we are on 10 acres outside city limits. I recently took a concealed weapons class and passed the test so I could get a license for that if I wanted. I don't plan to but thought it would be a good idea to become familiar with the gun laws in my state and how to handle a gun safely (my husband has a couple guns). We did some target shooting afterwards, that was fun.

Alagirl
Jun. 11, 2010, 02:28 PM
well, we haven't bought the farm yet, Hubby has a few shotguns and a rifle or two, I own a 9mm pistol (and no, I can't shoot worth a damn, but Hubby got all excited when I asked for one...:lol:)

And I think I would be more capable of shooting an animal in need than Hubby, Army training be damned, redneck upbringing and all ;) But then again, I am not sure.

Now intruders, different story, but me, too, would have to knock them unconscious first, so I can find the gun case, key and ammo....:lol:

Where'sMyWhite
Jun. 11, 2010, 02:40 PM
And heaven forbid all of you gasp_never_in_my_house folks ever discover that target shooting is actually quite fun and can leave you with a great sense of accomplishment :)

Yes, owning firearms does come with being responsible. Yes, choosing to have one, or not, is your choice. But, don't sell ownership or folks who do choose to own them short...

Tom King
Jun. 11, 2010, 02:46 PM
If you live as far out as we do from law enforcement, and you need to dial 911, it better be part of your gun safe combination.

Fortunately, I've never had to put a horse down, but have put a cat, 2 dogs, a deer, and various other animals out of their screaming misery with the aid of a firearm-almost always as the result of being hit by a car with guts hanging out and limbs mauled while still bleeding. It's not something that I ever want to do, but I consider it a necessary part of being a caretaker for animals. I'm not going to let an animal, who is obviously not going to make it, lie there and scream in pain until it bleeds out.

No way would I want to leave a horse down screaming while I went to see if I could find another redneck to put it out of it's misery. Nor would I call a vet when the nearest one would be 30 minutes away at best.

If you are going to live out in the country with animals, it's part of animal husbandry.

leilatigress
Jun. 11, 2010, 02:49 PM
I don't think I could even shoot an intruder. I'd have to hit them with a frying pan or something. I had an officer say most women will render intruders unconscious with a frying pan much better than trying to shoot or stab them. We are more likely to grab something and be more accurate with a tool/object we use on a reg basis. (Why do I get the image of the dressage gals whipping the heck out of an intruder?) :lol:

I do not own a gun nor will I ever. I was raised around them and am a really great shot but just don't want one.

Tom King
Jun. 11, 2010, 02:52 PM
I forgot to mention when a lady we know called me late at night, screaming and crying. Her horse had put it's foot through the floor of her trailer and ground most of it off, screaming, and bleeding. She wanted me to come shoot it. She was over 2 hours away and had forgotten how far away from home she was. We didn't get any sleep for the rest of that night and probably several after that. She was able to get a Highway Patrolman to shoot the horse some time later that night.

Don't pat yourself on the back for not having a gun, and don't call me. You're wimping out.

Oh, about intruders. I'd shoot one in a split second if it meant the safety of my family. Fortunately, we've been able to disarm the few armed ones that have come here without bloodshed.

msj
Jun. 11, 2010, 02:58 PM
Don't have one. Next door neighbor was a county sheriff before he retired and I'm sure he still has a gun. He's come over before to shoot a 'coon that a previous dog I had had mauled (good dog :D). I know if I needed him, he'd be here in a heartbeat.

Primary reason I don't have one is that I might be very tempted to use it on some, if not all the a$$holes I run into on a regular basis, and I'd just end up in jail. :sigh:

RacetrackReject
Jun. 11, 2010, 03:20 PM
No guns for me. I live in huntin' country, and if it came to it I am sure I could drive around and bang on doors and one of the folks in the area would come do a mercy killing in the rare event that I would need that.

Not singling you out, just quoting you as you were the first one to say it.

I hope this works for the ones of you that want to put it off on someone else, but mostly it doesn't. No one wants to do your dirty work for you, and in today's world, many are afraid of consequences. I know someone who thought very much like the above statement, then her horse was horribly injured and dying and no one would help and the vet was on another emergency and couldn't make it. The local police said that they could no longer do that sort of thing due to liability. Her horse died an agonizing death just before the vet got there to euth hours later and to this day she has not been able to forgive herself for that.

Me, personally, I took on the responsibility for everything when I took ownership of my animals, for good and bad.

SmokenMirrors
Jun. 11, 2010, 03:23 PM
While some who think they know what the term redneck means, this is the actual meaning where the term came from:

"Clearly, the best explanation of redneck to mean "union man" is that the word refers to the red handkerchiefs that striking union coal miners in both southern West Virginia and southern Colorado often wore around their necks or arms as a part of their informal uniform.2 The June 1914 issue of The Masses, for example, contains a Catholic priest's account of the labor unrest in the Trinidad District of southern Colorado: "For eight days it was a reign of terror. Armed miners swarmed into the city like soldiers of a revolution. They tramped the streets with rifles, and red handkerchiefs around their necks, singing their war songs" (Eastman 1914:5). Thus, the epithet redneck, in a coal-mining context, usually referred to the red bandanas that striking miners sometimes wore knotted about their necks and not to sunburned necks, the conspicuous physical feature for which poor white southerners, who worked long days in the fields, were so infamously named (Roebuck and Hickson 1982:3). It cannot be entirely discounted, however, that redneck, as a term of contempt for organized coal miners and gun thugs, derided both their union membership and their poor whiteness, since so many West Virginia and Kentucky miners were former or part-time farmers from the surrounding rural districts. Thus, in the mouths of coal operators, the epithet could have been doubly expressive of contempt."

Thought I would clarify the actual term...this is the site if you want to read the full article...
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3732/is_200601/ai_n17174894/

Mozart
Jun. 11, 2010, 03:50 PM
Fortunately, we've been able to disarm the few armed ones that have come here without bloodshed.

Exactly how many armed intruders have come to your residence? :eek:

jennywho
Jun. 11, 2010, 03:50 PM
Yay! you all solved my dilemma. I really don't want to own a gun or have one on my property. BUT I do have three gun owning neighbors that in the worst of times would at least lend me one even if they wouldn't do the dirty work. Why didn't I think of that? Time for me to sign up for a refresher class just in case. THANKS COTH!

saje
Jun. 11, 2010, 04:26 PM
The holier than thou thing goes both ways.

Those of us who have horses at home and live in the country and don't own guns aren't lazy irresponsible owners expecting everyone else to do our "dirty work" for us any more than you folks who chastise us are lowlife "rednecks" aka crazy white trash conspiracy theorists.

Speaking for myself, I truly do not think that I could shoot a living creature. Call me a coward, perhaps I am, but I am also terrified that I would bungle it and cause more suffering. That's not the sort of skill that you can really practice until you are more comfortable with it, y'know?

And why is asking someone who hunts regularly (with the intention of killing something to put in the freezer, not just for a day out in the woods) to come and dispatch a suffering animal for you akin to asking them to come clean out your septic tank? And why do you assume that I wouldn't compensate them, the same as I compensate the vet I ask to do the dirty work of putting down my ancient cat in renal failure?

Do you who espouse the must-have-gun-on-farm line ever get the vet to euthanize for you? To do your "dirty work"? Or do you do them all yourself? I'm not saying that a well place shot isn't a humane death, because it's as good or better than the pink juice, I'm just interested in what, exactly, constitutes dirty work.

In my own case, I am lucky to have multiple vets I can call on, and if for some reason I could not get one to come quickly enough, I have several hunting friends who would not consider it an imposition to help me out.

One more rambling thought: no one wants to suffer, or see another being suffer. But it -is- part of life. How many people get to die a quiet painless death? Animals in the wild virtually never do. Shock is the body's response to pain and fear, and it is a blessing not a bad thing for the mortally injured. It may not happen fast enough, but when the vet is on the way, or someone's trying to fumble their way into the gun safe or rouse a neighbor, it may be some solace to know that the brain and body are working to dull the senses.

And an addendum:

I do keep a bottle of ace on hand, and may ask my vet about resuming keeping a few doses of more heavy duty tranq as I did when I had a hard to shoe and treat horse. I realize that if it's a wild animal or a thrashing animal it may not do me any good, but it's better than nothing.

JSwan
Jun. 11, 2010, 04:53 PM
I never saw any good come of stereotyping, and I'm not stereotyping those who choose not to own a firearm.

It's none of my business and I really don't care one way or the other.

But don't make the assumption that a neighbor or "hunter" is going to leap up to dispatch your animal on demand. Don't make the assumption that an act you personally find repugnant or distressing is in any way less distressing for the gun owner/hunter.

Don't also make the mistake of thinking that no liability, civil and/or criminal, attaches to the person who helps you out in your time of need. If the person makes even a tiniest mistake with regards to setback requirements, he/she could lose his/her hunting license, concealed carry permit, and/or go to jail. The gun owner/hunter can also be charged with animal cruelty even if the euthanasia goes smoothly.

These are all risks you, the non gun owner, are asking the gun owner to incur. The emotional stress, as well as risking financial loss, and/or the risk of a civil suit or even a criminal conviction.

It's not just banging on a door asking for help in an emergency. Like others noted, even law enforcement officers can be prohibited from assisting. Because of liability.

It's one thing for YOU, as the horse owner, to risk your own right to carry or own, or to risk your own freedom by dispatching a wounded animal.

It's quite another to ask a stranger. By all means, plan for whatever emergency you think might occur. Keep meds and your vets phone number handy.

I hope none of you ever have to make the decision some of us have had to. Vets do not appear on demand, emergencies happen in the middle of the night, on holidays, and some injuries are horrific. And while it is natural for wildlife to suffer and linger, it does not make a human any less aware of the suffering.


I could not lie in my bed and listen to an animal groaning in agony; no matter how "natural" that agony was. And yes, I have heard that thump thump or screech of tires, and then listened to an animal crying in the dark. It is pitiful and I don't regret ending the suffering.

katarine
Jun. 11, 2010, 05:00 PM
The holier than thou drum just keeps on drumming.

I hope none of you are killed in rockslide today but I'm not going to sit here in a hardhat and call myself smart.

saje
Jun. 11, 2010, 05:12 PM
I do understand the liability angle, and I find it sad but understandable. Some people might think it was worth the gamble, some not. I get it.

I can ask, and if they say no then that's fine. And no, *I* wouldn't ask a stranger, I would ask a friend. Again, if they refuse, so be it. And I have had this discussion with a hunting friend, and have been assured that if I'm ever in such a horrible situation I can indeed call on them.

Here's a question for you, not a direct comparison I know but pretty close:

If you and a friend were in a car accident, and your friend was bleeding badly and there was a house nearby, would you NOT go to that house to ask for help while you waited for 911 because the strangers there might be repulsed by the situation and the gore? Would you get certified as a paramedic just so that in a medical emergency you wouldn't have to ask strangers for help?

You come across in your post as though you think I feel as though I am entitled to ask unpleasant favors of hunters because they're used to killing. Not so. I didn't say they would not find it repugnant, I said that they have experience in killing. I do not. They, whether they like doing it or not, are experienced. I am not. Nor do I want to be. Weak? Probably. But again, how in hell is someone supposed to practice this sort of thing? I could shoot a paper target all day. I truly don't think I have what it takes to pull the trigger on a thrashing animal. Vilify me if you'd like, I am what I am.


I hope none of you ever have to make the decision some of us have had to. Vets do not appear on demand, emergencies happen in the middle of the night, on holidays, and some injuries are horrific. And while it is natural for wildlife to suffer and linger, it does not make a human any less aware of the suffering.

No shit sherlock.

And no you aren't stereotyping, but you definitely come across as thinking you are the better, braver, more caring person. Maybe you are. More power to ya, and I'm sorry you've been put in those situations.

dkcbr
Jun. 11, 2010, 05:18 PM
Fabulous posts, saje! :yes:

JSwan
Jun. 11, 2010, 05:53 PM
And no you aren't stereotyping, but you definitely come across as thinking you are the better, braver, more caring person.


I'm not. And I'm certainly NOT braver. I wrote a general response. The question the OP posed was a good one, but some of the responses are irritating.

Because few of you know what you are talking about. There are no good samaritan laws for regular people who put down your animal for you. It's not like assisting in an accident.

There is also a general attitude of, well, they hunt so killing must come easy to "them". Well, it doesn't. As others have noted, it requires a tremendous amount of skill and practice to be able to shoot proficiently.

Just because someone hunts or owns a gun, does not mean that person is capable of euthanizing a horse humanely. They probably can, but that person may not know that you euthanize a goat or sheep differently than you do a horse. Or that a heart lung shot, while great in hunting, is not considered humane for livestock.

Folks make a lot of assumptions when it comes to firearms. Again, I really and truly do not care if people own one or not. Or approve of its use or not. And no approach makes a person more caring or loving or whatever. That's just silly. Not being comfortable killing something doesn't make anyone weak. Just like being comfortable with killing something doesn't make one a monster.

But just don't assume that a gun owner is capable or able or willing to put your animal out of its misery. Don't assume that gun owner is going to loan you a firearm, not knowing if you are a criminal, or capable of using it safely and responsibly.

I mean "you" in the plural. I'm not directing this at you personally.

Maybe it's better to do one's best to make emergency plans, have several contacts for vets (like you do), instead of assuming the local hunters can shoot an animal.

The same could be said of burial/disposal, too. The same thing happens. An emergency occurs, and the owner is left scrambling trying to find a backhoe at 2am or on a Sunday.

It's a terrible and emotional time to have to make such decisions.

And I freely admit I'm irritated at the notion of all these gun owners/hunters leaping to the aid of horse owners. Many people on this BB take great delight in hurling insults at these very same "drunken rednecks" come hunting season.

I can't help but appreciate the irony.

Tamara in TN
Jun. 11, 2010, 06:10 PM
And I freely admit I'm irritated at the notion of all these gun owners/hunters leaping to the aid of horse owners. Many people on this BB take great delight in hurling insults at these very same "drunken rednecks" come hunting season.

I can't help but appreciate the irony.

I don't know of anyone personally,who hunts or keeps guns who would shoot someone's animal (for mercy's sake) if they were not close kin to them...

the fears of being sued by your neighbor for doing what they asked you to do to begin with is pretty large...esp if you have any real things of value they could sue you for....

we'd never ever do it....

Tamara in TN

Kate66
Jun. 11, 2010, 06:17 PM
I have my own farm and do not have a gun and would not have a gun. I was a pretty good shot (also won some competitions with clays) in my 20s so know how to use one, but wouldn't get one. I am actually quite pleasantly surprised by how many people don't own them on here. I was of the impression I was the only one that wouldn't.

The one time I could not get a vet out to an injured animal was during Hurricane Ike when one of our cows ended up down and all the phone lines around were down. In reality I could not have shot her even if I had a gun. The farmer down the road did and I can say he honestly didn't give it a second thought.

subk
Jun. 11, 2010, 06:37 PM
I have several and for the most part shoot them regularly--skeet, sporting clays and bird hunting plus the occasional target practice. Mr. subk recently got his permit to carry and I'm seriously considering getting mine as well. My teenaged daughters are handy with a shotgun as well.

My favorite gun I own though is one I haven't actually shot. It's my great grandfather's and it lived mounted over the back door of his Virginia farm house. My dad can still remember Grandfather Brown grabbing it on the run many times to check out some night time noise out in the barn yard. I'm sure it was used more than once for euthanasia. It will have a similar place of honor in the farmhouse I'm currently building even though I have other guns for the real jobs.


And why is asking someone who hunts regularly (with the intention of killing something to put in the freezer, not just for a day out in the woods) to come and dispatch a suffering animal for you akin to asking them to come clean out your septic tank?
Most people I know hunt for the activity that actually proceeds pulling the trigger. Although the end result of my hunting is birds in the freezer the hunting is about being in the woods, working the dogs, honing a skill and the social camaraderie. It has almost no similarities to shooting a pitiful animal to put it out of its misery. Assuming they are similar is a little like comparing cutting your grass and driving in a NASCAR race--the end result is that you burn gas in an engine, right?

Tom King
Jun. 11, 2010, 06:40 PM
Exactly how many armed intruders have come to your residence? :eek:

Only two. We took their guns, all their clothes and Id's, everything out of the car, their pictures, and told them I'd give them a 20 minute head start before calling the cops. I lied though, they were picked up a few miles down the road, and the Highway Patrolman was dying laughing ( I knew him) when he came to get their stuff. They were later sent back to the country that they came from.

Anyone that comes here looking for trouble will find it.

tabula rashah
Jun. 11, 2010, 06:43 PM
So I guess according to everyone that insists I am an irresponsible animal owner because I don't have gun, must think that everyone who owns in animals in the majority of foreign countries is unfit to own animals as well?
I don't own a gun, won't own a gun and wouldn't ask someone to shoot my animal either. I am less than 10 minutes from my vet's house if need be- but on top of that I keep a couple doses of some heavy tranq on hand.

JSwan
Jun. 11, 2010, 06:56 PM
Please point out where ANYONE has written anything of the sort.

Don't bother.

No one has. Nor have I ever read a similar thread on this BB in which ANYONE has EVER written anything of the sort.

Stop putting words in our mouths.

The OP asked a question. It was answered honestly by people from different parts of the country (and world). Different perspectives.

I think what some people DID write is not to expect others to do the work you are incapable of, unwilling to, or not comfortable with doing yourself.

That's not exactly unreasonable, especially considering the enormous civil and/or criminal liability involved with the use of a firearm.

Personally, if I have a vet emergency I call the vet. If emergency euthanasia is required and a vet is not available, I'm ok with doing it myself though it grieves me tremendously. NB - EMERGENCY euthanasia is NOT the same as euthanasia.

But that doesn't mean I (or anyone else) is the after hours critter killer.

Develop your own emergency plans, including burial/disposal, either rely on yourself or know you can rely on in an emergency, make a backup plan, and hope you never need to implement.

SmokenMirrors
Jun. 11, 2010, 07:04 PM
JSwan;Please point out where ANYONE has written anything of the sort.

Don't bother.

No one has. Nor have I ever read a similar thread on this BB in which ANYONE has EVER written anything of the sort.

Stop putting words in our mouths.

The OP asked a question. It was answered honestly by people from different parts of the country (and world). Different perspectives.

I think what some people DID write is not to expect others to do the work you are incapable of, unwilling to, or not comfortable with doing yourself.

That's not exactly unreasonable, especially considering the enormous civil and/or criminal liability involved with the use of a firearm.

Personally, if I have a vet emergency I call the vet. If emergency euthanasia is required and a vet is not available, I'm ok with doing it myself though it grieves me tremendously. NB - EMERGENCY euthanasia is NOT the same as euthanasia.

But that doesn't mean I (or anyone else) is the after hours critter killer.

Develop your own emergency plans, including burial/disposal, either rely on yourself or know you can rely on in an emergency, make a backup plan, and hope you never need to implement.

I had to ask, where has anyone ever been holier than thou in the 3+ pages? I think that JSwan was very clear on what she said, what we all said actually.

Pixie Dust
Jun. 11, 2010, 07:11 PM
Wow, people who don't have guns are irresponsible and I shouldn't ask a friend who hunts to do my dirty work. Whew Knew!!

I don't know what your friends and family are like, but I don't have to worry about legal ramifications with mine. And everyone in my family knows if you have legal problem, you call Joel, if you have an accounting problem you call Robin, if you have a car problem or NEED SOMETHING SHOT, you call Bryant, and they will help you with your dirty work, no questions asked. (And if you need someone to feed you cat, you call me ;-)

deltawave
Jun. 11, 2010, 07:53 PM
We have an ancient .22 rabbit gun that hasn't been touched in years--a relic. Don't even have any ammo around for it. Otherwise, no weapons here. I am a good shot--used to be on the rifle team in college and I had to qualify every year with a handgun when I was in the military--but I have no desire whatsoever to own a gun. Our neighbor has half a dozen of them should the need arise for me to shoot a horse that's in extremis, and I'm fairly sure I could handle it.

elizabeth1
Jun. 11, 2010, 07:59 PM
Two years ago my then 16 year old son was chased home by a rabid skunk. This was in February. The skunk rambled around on my front yard and around my front door only leaving to chase the occasional car that came down the road.

We called 3 of our neighbors who are hunters. No one was home and they could not get home in any reasonable time frame.

I called the sheriff. They would be even longer.

My son had handled guns but only target shooting. He was able to shoot the skunk with one clean shot from the door step.

This event made me very aware that I was not prepared to handle this kind of situation in the future when my son moves on with his life.

I am now trained and capable thanks to some individuals on this board who pointed me in the proper direction to become educated. I took classes from a licensed professional.

Prior to this I had never touched a firearm, never wanted to. I still don't. I have a strong respect for my neighbors and son who have hunting licenses and provide for their families.

I now have knowledge, an education and a skill I hope I never need to use. It's simply knowledge.

Pixie Dust
Jun. 11, 2010, 09:19 PM
I have a good friend with a similar story. Except it was a racoon, and it somehow had her trapped in her basement holding a basket of laundry, and when she retells it, the story is more hilarious than WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN.

(And she has zero problems killing things. Seriously.)

elizabeth1
Jun. 11, 2010, 09:45 PM
All I can say is....:eek:!!!!

We once had a possum come into the kitchen via the cat door. My dog took it out with one snap of its neck. I somehow don't think a rifle in my kitchen would have been a good idea.

I no longer have a cat door.

Country living can be wildly exciting.

Huntertwo
Jun. 11, 2010, 09:48 PM
Oh, about intruders. I'd shoot one in a split second if it meant the safety of my family.

Ditto! You bet your arse I'd have no problem shooting someone who was entering my home. Me or them??? Wouldn't have to think twice about it.

Huntertwo
Jun. 11, 2010, 09:56 PM
I had an officer say most women will render intruders unconscious with a frying pan much better than trying to shoot or stab them. We are more likely to grab something and be more accurate with a tool/object we use on a reg basis

Would you really trust your strength with a frying pan against a man (assuming it is a man) who was intent on doing you harm?

He could very easily grab it out of your hand in a split second. It has nothing to do with accuracy. I want more space between an intruder and myself.

I keep my 38 loaded and ready to go.;) Of course I have a trigger lock on it, but keep the key location memorized and very close.

MistyBlue
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:23 PM
Well that wasn't insulting. :winkgrin:

I personally don't suggest firearms for those not comfortable with the idea or who might be slightly unhinged or overly emotional.

But having firearms around...so far it hasn't made me afraid of the wildlife. I certainly hope not, kinda hard to be a wildlife rehabber if you're afraid of the wildlife. :D

Tamara in TN
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:28 PM
All I can say is....:eek:!!!!

We once had a possum come into the kitchen via the cat door. My dog took it out with one snap of its neck. I somehow don't think a rifle in my kitchen would have been a good idea.
Country living can be wildly exciting.

Calvin has a great uncle who blew holes in not one, but two different houses w/in one mile of here, shooting copperheads that were wrapped around toilet bases in the summer...

he couldn't find a towel I reckon

Tamara in TN

MistyBlue
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:40 PM
LMAO Tamara! My father (when I was a toddler) put a fist through a windshield and a vacuum through the living room wall killing spiders. :eek: :lol: :eek:

Apparently my father *really* hated spiders.

My ex shot and killed a bureau. Missed the mouse. I told him it was because he forgot to warn first or read the mouse it's rights. That was one policeman without a sense of humor...hence being an ex. :cool: :winkgrin:

It's kind of funny in a way...men in general aren't usually squigged out by creepy crawlies like women may tend to be. But the males who do have phobias REALLY have serious phobias. I saw one guy a couple weeks ago almost run on water when he spotted a crawdad. :lol:

chai
Jun. 11, 2010, 10:46 PM
tabula rasha, I am glad that you are so fortunate to have your vet nearby, but with horses, never say never. I believe it's everyone's choice whether to keep firearms or not. I do, but I do not hunt and Mr. chai jokes that when I finally buy it, it'll be getting hit by a car because I love animals so much, I even stop to move turtles out of the road. I am terrified of spiders, though, and I do a spider check every single night before going to bed. Maybe that is ocd, but better ocd than a spider lurking under my covers.

I cannot imagine ever having to shoot one of my horses but I am glad that, God forbid, if we ever have a catastrophic event here and I can't raise the vet, I do have the means and ability to end their suffering.

We have also had a rash of daylight break-ins within a five mile radius of my little farm. Two weeks ago, my sister in law who lives down the street from me was home alone in the middle of the day when a man tried to break in. She has four enormous dogs including a pony sized bloodhound and a pit bull who went berserk. She saw the man dash away from the back door and as she was going for the phone, she heard breaking glass from the front door.

She turned the corner to see the man with his arm inside the smashed windows surrounding the door, reaching for the deadbolt. She screamed that the police were on the way and he finally fled. Even though he heard those dogs, he was intent on getting into her house until he heard that the police were coming. They have an alarm system, but in the time it took for the alarm to signal the police, the guy could have been in the house with her.

Mr. chai has finally talked her into firearms training.

SLW
Jun. 11, 2010, 11:05 PM
We have firearms of various sizes. I have never had an emergency with any of our pets or horses that required us to end it's misery and that would be so hard, so hard to do. However, I would be able to assist a neighbor because that pet isn't the nose I've kissed or the chin I've rubbed. It is all about staying clinical during the situation.

As for human intruders, we have them out here. Last year they busted a group of non-Anglo Saxon men robbing houses during the daytime in our township. We call 911 and say "I'm reloading, please send a back up unit." :)

Aven
Jun. 11, 2010, 11:08 PM
SO for those who don't have guns... Why assume they won't talk to their neigbours ahead of time? Find out who might be willing.

Now sure I don't live in the US, and my hubby does have a gun. (And has put down a few hit by car strays... I always cry so hard). But I do know of neighbours who would do 'the dirty work' if asked. I have seen people drive past an injured animal and come back to shoot it..

Its just as ignorant to think that as 'one of them' that you speak for all hunters and gun owners as it is to assume any hunter is going to leap at the chance to shoot your horse. I hunt, but with my dogs. I am not a fan of guns, they scare me. I live in an area where no one locks doors even when they aren't home. Armed intruders aren't a threat (if they were then perhaps I would have to learn to shoot) so I don't feel the need. But to say just because I never want one that I look down on those who do.

My 9 year old son owns his own bow and takes archery lessons. I love hunting to the hounds (and no its not often a drag) and I like hunting with the JRTs, I have gutted a wild boar with nothing but a sharp knife and and a general idea what to do but I don't like guns. Yet *gasp* I don't look down on hunting culture at all.

So my advice to those who don't have or want guns. Talk to your neighbours ahead of time, you might find that they are less uptight than some of the people in this thread.

Yip
Jun. 11, 2010, 11:30 PM
Not exactly a farm, but 10 acres in the country. No guns here.

Yip

MunchkinsMom
Jun. 11, 2010, 11:45 PM
Yes, we have guns in the house, a few rifles for skeet shooting and two handguns. Have not had a need to use them on anything other than targets and clay pidgeons (knocking on wood).

Honestly, the day my two-year old gelding had a compound fractured front leg, and the first call was to the vet, next was to my husband to get splint materials so we could get the horse out of the barn, and third to the neighbors to try to round up a back hoe. Never once did it even cross my mind to tell my husband to go load one of the guns. But then again, the horse was not screaming in agony, he was already in shock, and we overdosed him with bute and banamine while waiting for the vet to arrive.

Since that time I have made mental inventory of good friends that I could call to help out in a situation like that, and lots of prayer that I never ever have to call one.

Last night I got a call from a neighbor telling me that he had chased a two-foot alligator out of his pasture, he tried to catch it but lost sight of it in the tall grass in the vacant lot across the street. I do admit that for a moment I got a mental image of a much larger animal, and was tempted to tell my DH to get out the handguns and go hunting. I suppose a two-foot gator could do a bit of damage to a small animal. I think I would be able to shoot something like that if necessary. I do not think I would be able to shoot one of my own, but I suppose if it were a true screaming in agony emergency, I would hope I would be able to do it.

I highly recommend that everyone bookmark this site, as it has very important information about emergency euthanasia of horses:

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vetext/INF-AN/INF-AN_EMERGEUTH-HORSES.HTML

Slewdledo
Jun. 12, 2010, 01:36 AM
I've never used a gun and never wish to. Don't believe in them.

There is a gun, bullets, and one guy who knows how to use them on the property where my horses are kept. In 8 years, it's been necessary to shoot two horses. Both broodmares, same time of year when vet went on vacation & in the middle of the night. One ruptured a uterine artery the night she foaled, the other two days after she foaled. There would've been a third last year but she died before preparations could be made.

Honestly, it creeps me out just to SEE the thing in the office when I'm at work.

So, 8 years, literally hundreds of horses in and out, and three situations where it became necessary. I can play those odds. Our emergency vet practice (10 minutes away) has added a vet, so chances are we would be able to get someone out quite quickly.

vacation1
Jun. 12, 2010, 03:41 AM
Not on this board. Not unless the person places it in context.

:rolleyes: So good to see paranoia in a gun owner. I'm getting a little sick of seeing people claim to be the beleaguered victim of effete, suburban modern culture - gun owners whining that they are demonized, pit bull owners whining that the media is out to get them, tattoo owners bitching about stereotypes. Seriously? The unarmed people get roughly 40 years (in only parts of the planet) of being culturally dominant over the ugliest guy with the biggest gun, and you're wetting yourself over the unfairness?

SmokenMirrors
Jun. 12, 2010, 08:36 AM
:rolleyes: So good to see paranoia in a gun owner. I'm getting a little sick of seeing people claim to be the beleaguered victim of effete, suburban modern culture - gun owners whining that they are demonized, pit bull owners whining that the media is out to get them, tattoo owners bitching about stereotypes. Seriously? The unarmed people get roughly 40 years (in only parts of the planet) of being culturally dominant over the ugliest guy with the biggest gun, and you're wetting yourself over the unfairness?

Say Vacation, can you SHOW me statistics that state that the unarmed are culturally dominated over those who do carry a weapon? And most gun owners aren't paranoid, we exercise our 2nd amendment right, many gun owners are polite, are the most law abiding citizens you will find and/or meet, know the rules and regulations, and honestly, many you would not even know if they carry or if they don't, as we don't want you to know.

JSwan
Jun. 12, 2010, 08:39 AM
Not at all. I don't even buy into the whole victimization trend.

But you sure seem to have gotten your knickers in a twist.

As I've written several times, I really don't care one way or the other. And you must have conveniently skipped the post I wrote to wildlifer, that if no offense was meant, none was taken.

And you must have also skipped the post in which I wrote that I never saw any good come of stereotypes.

I also think some of you are baiting, trying to create an argument where none is intended. The gun owners on this thread have been polite, not hysterical, reasonable, and given intelligent, reasoned responses. They've not bought into stereotypes, they've not disparaged those not comfortable with or opposed to firearms, and they've strongly encouraged people to seek training from a qualified professional. Hardly a victims stance.

Mistyblue - a laundry basket and oven mitts work well for escorting a possum out of the house. Doggie doors don't just let in dogs. :lol:

dkcbr
Jun. 12, 2010, 09:06 AM
I also think some of you are baiting, trying to create an argument where none is intended.

:yes:

saje
Jun. 12, 2010, 09:38 AM
For someone who doesn't care, there's been an awful lot of restating a POV, with the aura of "y'all do what you want, but I know I'm right" surrounding it.

No one has been hysterical, and the NON-gun owners on this thread have been polite, not hysterical, reasonable, and given intelligent, reasoned responses as well.

Ok, your turn, you can have the last word if you really want it. I'm done.

Moderator 1
Jun. 12, 2010, 11:44 AM
Let's keep things focused on the OP and not get sidetracked into a general debate re: gun ownership or personal commentary related to it.

Thanks!
Mod 1

Kate66
Jun. 12, 2010, 12:13 PM
Waiting 30 minutes to an hour for a vet is ridiculously long. I'm convinced now, I need a gun. One cat is pretty darned old, and if he's suffering, why waste time driving him somewhere when I could shoot his old tabby head at home?

Mom's getting pretty old and feeble, too. I'd hate to see her suffer.

Hahaha - now that DID make me laugh!

Altitude Rider
Jun. 12, 2010, 12:24 PM
I live on 5 acres by myself, 15 miles from "town". Ever since I've moved to this state (SC) the locals/friends/etc have asked me if I own a gun which I do not. My neighbors know I live alone and keep a good eye on my land (without being nosy).

I have shot rifles in the past, have my "Marksman" certificate and a Colorado Hunting License but I do not feel like I could be comfortable actually using a gun on a person or animal. Of course I don't want to see an animal suffer and I keep enough meds that I would hope I could at least "help" the situation with a horse should it occur. I actually kind of like shooting guns but I do not like having them in the house.

Plenty of neighbors have them...I live in a good area surrounded by a mix of Polo, Eventers, H/J and non-horse, second and third generation locals...I feel safe here. God forbid someone ever tried to enter my house but I keep my phone by my bed and a can of wasp spray (sprays 20'+) which would at least give me a chance to get out at window or something.

I have seen a freshly hit, half-dead deer on the side of the road before so I stopped at the nearest convienence store and told a couple of locals standing around shooting the breeze. They were on it right away.

Maybe someday but I'd rather spend the time (education for a local permit) and money for the gun, on something else. Like Hay.

kellidahorsegirl
Jun. 12, 2010, 12:30 PM
Live on 30 acres for the "homestead" and lease over 600 for the cattle to graze. We have shotguns and rifles. I only recently learned how to use them haha. My dad had guns when I was growing up, but I didn't use them (was in CA).

Out here, I have learned how to shoot and have hunted prairie dogs and got one on my 4th shot ever :D haha. Otherwise, its just shooting buckets and cans. My husband has got a few critters and stray cats (very sickly) for me...and my heeler has got a few too. I hope that if for some crazy reason I do need to shoot any of the horses, cattle or personal pets, that my husband is home to do it for me....he's good about that. If he's not...I can't honestly say for sure because I've never been in those shoes. I just hope I can for the sake of my animals (vets can't get here quickly most of the time.....if one is available....15 minutes tops). I at least have drugs available to make them comfy if I wuss out.

MistyBlue
Jun. 12, 2010, 12:57 PM
Mistyblue - a laundry basket and oven mitts work well for escorting a possum out of the house. Doggie doors don't just let in dogs.

In my house if it goes in the laundry basket, it goes in the washer. :winkgrin: After a wash, fluff and fold I'll relocated the little bugger back outside. :lol:

As for gun ownership, I think what JSwan's point was is that for those who do have firearms and are able to use them in emergency euthanasia issues it's very hard emotionally to do so most of the time. It's the right thing to do, it saves on fear and suffering for the animal and when needed it's done immediately and efficiently. But afterwards...yeah, it's hard. The scene will pop into your head quite a bit for a while...and will continue to pop into your head as fresh as the day it happened on and off for the rest of your life.

Which isn't a reason not to do what needs to be done of course. But when the neighbors constantly call to have you come over to do something like that, it's a lot more emotional wear and tear on you. Believe me. It absolves the neighbor of having to do it and having the images stuck in their minds, and sometimes yeah, that can feel unfair as hell. Not that gun owners want everyone to be well versed in firearms and have to go through that, but that still doesn't mean that it won't feel unfair when we always have to be the one shouldering the burden of doing that.

Now when you add on neighbors and folks like them who *will* call the firearm owning neighbor for emergency situations who then turn around and make derogatory remarks later on about those who are doing a service for them at their own detriment...well it then goes beyond the "unfair" feeling to resentment. Because it's not as if we'll then say to those folks the next time they call, "No, I won't come over for that reason" then we know it's not the neighbor suffering but an animal.

I presonally feel if you live in an area that a vet can't get there within 15 minutes or if you aren't able to use another implement to end the suffering of wildlife, you really should consider learning firearm handling and safety. That's my personal opinion, not a law by any means. The reason for this opinion is that stewardship of land includes the wildlife on it and also ownership of animals means we don't get to only want to ever enjoy all the benefits without any hardships at all because those hardships cause us to feel bad. Yes, it sucks out loud to have to shoot something. Yes, it even sucks out loud to have to learn how to and think about having to possibly do it in the future.

And also in my personal opinion...even 15 minutes of a horse with a dangling leg or an animal half crushed by a car is too darned long to wait for someone else to come do the necessary deed. Shock is not an end all bandage...Mother Nature is a royal witch and it's not overly common for animals to go into shock before passing away. Most feel extreme pain and paralyzing fear that's mistaken for shock. Convincing yourself that a fatally injured animal will always go into shock and not feel anything before passing away is an emotional crutch. And FWIW...it's very unlikely that any amount of tranq is going to work on an adreneline rushing terrified injured anything.

So yes, I keep a firearm around for those reasons. No, I am not a big bad anything. A firearm is a tool, it's no different than a rake or chainsaw or screwdriver. It isn't anything special at all.

And as for not feeling appreciated when doing a service for those who aren't willing or able to perform that service themselves...well, that could be because of folks who feel a firearm owner is culturally dominated by those who I'm going to assume feel they're higher life forms for not owning a scary weapon. Or folks who feel anyone who states we feel badly killing anything and it's only worse when everyone else calls us to do something they could be capable of doing ...and we're wetting ourselves? Nice. And I don't think assuming to tell someone else what they meant because of an aura is exactly a fair argument. It's possible that the meaning wasn't understood as opposed to there being some sort of evil aura. ;)

Catersun
Jun. 12, 2010, 02:09 PM
Come on. These guys even describe themselves as redneck. It's faster to type than "hunting/fishing types who wear camo and have lots of guns." Geez.

A better word would be sportsman... or as the saying above to door as Bass Pro Shop, "Hunters, Fisherman, and other Liars."

mkevent
Jun. 12, 2010, 02:43 PM
This has been a very enlightening thread.

I don't own a gun, I don't know how to shoot a gun and guns frighten me. DH feels the same way. We aren't against gun ownership at all-it's just not something that we feel comfortable having in our situation. My father and both my brothers have guns. My next door neighbor also has a gun.

I guess because we live in suburbia, I never felt the need for a gun to dispatch wounded wildlife. Reading about other areas of the country has made me realize how different the situation would be somewhere else. I am glad that there are people that are able to do what is necessary to ease the suffering of animals. I'm actually a bit embarassed that I never thought about the people who actually do this for injured wildlife. As MistyBlue said, I'm sure that mental image stays in your head forever. As someone who doesn't watch horror movies because of the flashbacks I get in my head, I can't imagine what it feels like when you have to do that in person.

This has made me think about a contingency plan if one of the horses here has a catastrophic emergency.

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Jun. 12, 2010, 02:53 PM
I've lived on thirty-something acres in the middle of East Jesus for the past dozen years. When I moved here, I said, "Y'know, I suppose I really need to learn how to use a gun." Visions of rattlesnakes and rabid coons and the like dancing in my head.

Still haven't gotten around to it.:)

I still think I should, though.:yes: Mostly because of the son of one of my neighbors, who, even as we speak, is in the hospital getting buckshot dug out of his arm after making an uninvited entrance into another neighbor's home for the purpose of relieving that gentleman of some of his property. This happens every so many months. Same kid busts up in somebody's house, gets shot (nobody's trying to kill him, mind), goes to the hospital, goes to jail, rinse repeat. :sigh:

I think I could put some buckshot in Sonny's behind. (Not that I would shoot someone over property, but Sonny's a crackhead and I don't want him in my space.) I don't know if I could perform emergency euthansia on an animal. Luckily I live on a dirt road in the bend of a ninety-degree curve, so cars aren't much of a danger.

The rabid skunk on the porch story is another fine illustration of why guns on farms are a good idea. Rabies skeeves me out big time. My grandfather was bitten by a rabid cow and had to have the shots, back when that was a way worse ordeal than it is now.

But so far, thanks to inertia and procrastination, I don't own a firearm. Every time I think about taking the classes, I come up with something else I'd much rather use the time for.

TBrescue
Jun. 12, 2010, 02:53 PM
and I think it's great. They have chased bobcat and coyote out of the pastures, raccoon out of the chicken coop and I know if there were an emergency and we couldn't get a vet out they could perform and emergency euthanasia. Personally I doubt I'd have the stomach for it, and I am a pretty good shot (target)

I also joke that when the poop hits the fan I'm going to barricade myself in with them @ the farm!!! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

dressagetraks
Jun. 12, 2010, 02:59 PM
I've got a gun. I live in Timbuctoo - nearest vet 45 minutes away, assuming he's not on another call and can come immediately.

The one time I've ever had to use it on a horse, hopefully the only time I ever will, there was no debate, and I was glad to have it available. Making that horse wait 5 minutes while I called a neighbor (all are at least 5 minutes away at full speed), much less 45 for the vet, would have been inhumane. I hated making him wait 2 minutes while I ran to the house for the gun. He was panicked, down, in horrible pain, and could not have safely been approached to be medicated even if I'd had sedatives or such around. The most humane thing was ending it at the soonest possible minute. I held together for that, took him out in one shot, and then broke down crying afterward.

About the only positive impression of that night was how fast it was over for him. From panicked pain to release instantly.

I hope I never have to again. But yes, after that night, I am grateful that I have a gun, and I will always keep one. In some situations, 5 minutes while you call help is 5 minutes far too long from the animal's point of view.

wildlifer
Jun. 12, 2010, 07:30 PM
Puhlease people. You are PC'ing yourself to death. No one is spitting on anyone, no need to be so reactionary. I work outside every day, all day, in nasty chest waders and boots half the time, I drive a big loud truck. I don't give a flying flip if someone calls me a redneck girl. My co-workers refer to themselves as rednecks. It is not an insult. I don't need anyone to be my free anything, I can take care of things myself. I am really dang sure I am never going to regret not having a gun at any point in my life nor will I ever need one. If I needed to dispatch something and none of my poor, insulted, redneck friends were in close proximity, I'm still a biologist who knows plenty of ways to quickly dispatch an animal if need be.

camohn
Jun. 12, 2010, 07:43 PM
We have a shotgun that is OK for rabid coons and the groundhog the dog managed to maim but not kill. FOr the rabid coon that got into the barn and we didn't want the siding shot up with a shotgun........the neighbor is a gun expert/marksman and has guns of all sorts. He came over with a pistol and dispatched him at close range.

MistyBlue
Jun. 12, 2010, 07:54 PM
mkevent...it's perfectly normal and reasonable to not be comfortable around firearms. :yes: And if this thread makes people think out and establish some sort of emergency plan for bad situations...that's always a good thing. :)
Talk to neighbors and/or friends first. Some are less bothered than others doing these types of things. And some might be leery of possibly getting into legal trouble afterwards. Waiting until an emergency situation arises means the person called out of the blue to dispatch an injured animal will automatically react or feel pressured to perform the service even if they really don't want to or worry that they might later be in trouble for doing so.

Also call your local law enforcement and ask what the regs and laws are regarding using live ammo on private property and regarding having a neighbor do so. This will be good info to have before discussing with friends or neighbors if they'd be willing to come over if the need arises.

And as always...and not regarding firearms at all...always have a plan worked out ahead of time for all of your own animals regarding end of life issues in any situation. Colic, injury, illness, etc. Figure out what each horse can handle regarding surgery and/or rehab, what you can financially handle regarding medical bills, etc. I know it's a crappy thing to have to pan out in advance but it helps enormously when a bad situation comes up. Because during a crises is the worst time to make an informed decision. :sadsmile:

elizabeth1
Jun. 12, 2010, 09:47 PM
Paint:

I had major gun avoidance issues prior to the skunk on my lawn and chasing my son. I considered them instruments of violence, designed to destroy another person. I never wanted any involvement with them but I respected the hunters and am friends with my neighbors regardless of their views.

The wake up call was in my local paper either the same day or the next that a rabid cat had bitten a child in a trailer park about ten miles from me.

What if Mr. Skunk had cruised off and done damage like that because no one at my house had taken action?

I am thankful my son took action. I am appauled but pleased I can now take action.

As Misty said, I simply consider it a tool I am now trained to handle.

Learn now and avoid the hind site issue. Knowledge doesn't hurt.

lesson junkie
Jun. 12, 2010, 11:10 PM
We live pretty far out, and this house is armed to its dark green shingles. DH has a carry permit, and reloads his rounds-the neighbors, too. Because they are here, it's important for me to know how to handle them safely. I don't like it, but it's necessary.

Would I use one to euthanize one of the animals? If I couldn't find DH or his shooting buddy from the next farm over. And, I'm sure my neighbor wouldn't resent helping me-that's what neighbors do for each other, right?

Now-if a person came into this house meaning harm-well, the shotgun is coming out from behind the bed, and somebody's gonna be cleaning up a big ol' mess. This assumes said Bad Guy makes it past all these dogs!

Calamber
Jun. 12, 2010, 11:38 PM
My dear old departed Dad, a Hoosier who I suppose would have been called a hillbilly, not a whole lot of education in depression era Indiana, gave me good advice. Do not carry a gun unless you intend to, and will, use it (on humans), and then, do not miss.

We do not live on a farm but I do have one of his guns. A 20 gauge, and we have needed it twice. Once on a rabid groundhog that chased me up the side of the kennel with puppies in it, and the other time for a fox who was acting strangely near my back door at night. Not rabid but pregnant, I was sorry I had to shoot her but it was just after the gh incident. I am glad I knew how to use the gun and was an accurate shot, but most glad my husband heard me yelling for him when I was treed by the poor rabid creature.

I need to be able to take care of myself and my animals and absolutely do not want to ask anyone else to do it. Well, unless it is a 6 foot blacksnake that does not need to live in my house anymore.:winkgrin: (She was relocated by a neighbor).

DownYonder
Jun. 13, 2010, 08:30 AM
This looks like a cool farm machine.Could be useful for groundhogs, coyotes, etc. :lol:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1052578

Jynx
Jun. 13, 2010, 08:39 AM
I grew up with guns and took gun safety as a child. In 16 years I have had to shoot 1 racoon, who was obviously sick/injured. My husband has a conceal & carry permit and usually takes care of opossums, even for the neighbor.

I'm with the "it's a tool" mindset.

I could not shoot one of my pets. I like the idea of getting sedatives from vets if something very bad happens.

msj
Jun. 13, 2010, 08:58 AM
This looks like a cool farm machine.Could be useful for groundhogs, coyotes, etc. :lol:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1052578

I LOVE IT!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

I just bought a new zero turn so I'm sending this the dealership and asking them if they can modify my new mower! :D :D:D:D

Then if foxy comes back to dig more holes in my horse's grave, I'll be ready for him!!! :D :D:D

JSwan
Jun. 13, 2010, 09:38 AM
This looks like a cool farm machine.Could be useful for groundhogs, coyotes, etc. :lol:



The heck with the gun - I want the zero steer. :lol:

Bluey
Jun. 13, 2010, 10:28 AM
This looks like a cool farm machine.Could be useful for groundhogs, coyotes, etc. :lol:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1052578

AR 15's is what most of us use here, since feral hogs moved in some years ago.

Those are accurate, don't kick back and most anyone can hit with them.:yes:

carolprudm
Jun. 13, 2010, 11:21 AM
I forgot to mention when a lady we know called me late at night, screaming and crying. Her horse had put it's foot through the floor of her trailer and ground most of it off, screaming, and bleeding. She wanted me to come shoot it. She was over 2 hours away and had forgotten how far away from home she was. We didn't get any sleep for the rest of that night and probably several after that. She was able to get a Highway Patrolman to shoot the horse some time later that night.

Don't pat yourself on the back for not having a gun, and don't call me. You're wimping out.



This.
My son took a break from bush hogging one hot day, leaving the bush hog elevated.
One of my goats crawled under it to rest in the shade.
Our son went back outside and started the bush hog.
He had to use a filet knife to finish the job.

We now have a gun though learning how to use it is on my to do list.

One concern I do have however. How many people know how to use it to put a horse down? I've been told it's not easy, especially if the horse is thrashing around

deltawave
Jun. 13, 2010, 11:56 AM
One can always slit a beleaguered animal's throat . . .

MistyBlue
Jun. 13, 2010, 05:43 PM
Carol, if the horse (or cow, deer, whatever) is thrashing then the best method is the triple shot. One, two, three...one right after the other and in close proximity. Takes 1.5 seconds in firing time. Either 3 to the head in the area of the brain or if the person is a hunter then 2 to the head followed immediately by one to the heart.

This is usually standard procedure in a safe zone (not on a road) when the animal is not still enough for one exact shot. 3 immediate shots by someone with some experience will have a very high chance of at least one of the three doing the job, and if the first one isn't accurate enough due to movement then one of the other will be. And since it's a 1.5 second experience it doesn't cause suffering. At least not anymore than the panic and pain that's causing the thrashing.

dressagetraks
Jun. 13, 2010, 06:01 PM
My horse was thrashing around and utterly panicked, and I was going for the three head shots if needed, but fortunately, the first one did it instantly. I did try to aim for the correct spot as best I could.

There is no possible way it would have been safe to get close enough to him to give meds or sedatives.

Oldenburg Mom
Jun. 13, 2010, 06:58 PM
Auto collisions come to mind. Thanks for running over an animal,... then put a bullet in its head.

Thank you for doing this. I can't imagine how difficult it must have been; I'll never forget an accident with a doe (it wasn't me) that haunts me till this day ... and it was two years ago. I called the police ... but it was horrible.

Thank you for doing this ...

It also reminds me that I've got to learn to use one, just for this reason.

gieriscm
Jun. 13, 2010, 08:17 PM
This looks like a cool farm machine.Could be useful for groundhogs, coyotes, etc. :lol:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1052578

+87 ;)

SmokenMirrors
Jun. 13, 2010, 09:03 PM
While some who think they know what the term redneck means, this is the actual meaning where the term came from. It is annoying to have it used out of context as it is apearant no one knows what it really means:

"Clearly, the best explanation of redneck to mean "union man" is that the word refers to the red handkerchiefs that striking union coal miners in both southern West Virginia and southern Colorado often wore around their necks or arms as a part of their informal uniform.2 The June 1914 issue of The Masses, for example, contains a Catholic priest's account of the labor unrest in the Trinidad District of southern Colorado: "For eight days it was a reign of terror. Armed miners swarmed into the city like soldiers of a revolution. They tramped the streets with rifles, and red handkerchiefs around their necks, singing their war songs" (Eastman 1914:5). Thus, the epithet redneck, in a coal-mining context, usually referred to the red bandanas that striking miners sometimes wore knotted about their necks and not to sunburned necks, the conspicuous physical feature for which poor white southerners, who worked long days in the fields, were so infamously named (Roebuck and Hickson 1982:3). It cannot be entirely discounted, however, that redneck, as a term of contempt for organized coal miners and gun thugs, derided both their union membership and their poor whiteness, since so many West Virginia and Kentucky miners were former or part-time farmers from the surrounding rural districts. Thus, in the mouths of coal operators, the epithet could have been doubly expressive of contempt."

Thought I would clarify the actual term...this is the site if you want to read the full article...
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n17174894/

mustangtrailrider
Jun. 13, 2010, 09:57 PM
Live in the sticks in the country! Have 5 barking dogs, 3 cats, one well armed-gun crazy husband, and yes, I have guns and know how to use them!

I like them, know how to use them, and do so acurately. I have only target practiced, but I am fully prepared to use them should the need arise. I have no desire to hunt. I am not opposed to it, but I just have to desire to do so.

I pray that I never have to use any firearm for the purpose of dispatching an animal, but I would do it if and when necessary.

We did have a mule that broke his leg. He did lead back to his paddock to eat his breakfast. The vet was there in 20 mins. The animal was in shock. He didn't appear to be miserable. Had he been in apparent agony (thrashing, screaming, etc,) We would have done it had necessary. He passed quietly with the vet.

If you don't like guns, don't have them.

If you have guns, know how and be PREPARED to use them.

Do not let one of your guns be used against you.

Catersun
Jun. 14, 2010, 07:53 AM
Don't have one. Next door neighbor was a county sheriff before he retired and I'm sure he still has a gun. He's come over before to shoot a 'coon that a previous dog I had had mauled (good dog :D). I know if I needed him, he'd be here in a heartbeat.

Primary reason I don't have one is that I might be very tempted to use it on some, if not all the a$$holes I run into on a regular basis, and I'd just end up in jail. :sigh:

msj- that is the best reason I've seen on this thread to NOT own a firearm.

msj
Jun. 14, 2010, 08:10 AM
msj- that is the best reason I've seen on this thread to NOT own a firearm.

Catersun - I wasn't joking either when I wrote that. I've thrown several people off the property and had one couple arrested for trespassing. The driver of a Volunteers of America truck didn't want to drive to the back of the house where I had several boxes of donations. I even told him he had plenty of room in the barn parking lot to turn around and when he refused I told him to get the "F" off the property, called the office and told they'd never get donations again and I donated regularly. Then there was AH driver from the farm store delivering a truck load of shavings in the winter who decided he wanted to practice his backing skills by backing up my driveway. The air was bright blue from my cussing....:sigh: :rolleyes:


Fortunately the Jesus preachers don't need to be told a 2nd time. They leave quietly. :) I have no doubt that if I owned a gun or rifle I'd be very tempted to use it. But I'd love to have a taser. :D :D

Cielo Azure
Jun. 14, 2010, 08:21 AM
Catersun - I wasn't joking either when I wrote that. I've thrown several people off the property and had one couple arrested for trespassing. The driver of a Volunteers of America truck didn't want to drive to the back of the house where I had several boxes of donations. I even told him he had plenty of room in the barn parking lot to turn around and when he refused I told him to get the "F" off the property, called the office and told they'd never get donations again and I donated regularly. Then there was AH driver from the farm store delivering a truck load of shavings in the winter who decided he wanted to practice his backing skills by backing up my driveway. The air was bright blue from my cussing....:sigh: :rolleyes:

Fortunately the Jesus preachers don't need to be told a 2nd time. They leave quietly. :) I have no doubt that if I owned a gun or rifle I'd be very tempted to use it. But I'd love to have a taser. :D :D

Two suicides in my family (both using guns). My nephew's was horrific and pretty much ruined my sister's life since 1992. I don't keep guns in my house. But it seems like so many accidents that have happened in my life- happen because of guns.

My neighbor in Middletown, MD was hanging laundry and was killed by a deer hunter. He saw movement and shot.

Another neighbor shot himself in the leg when cleaning his gun.

We have had to remove/kick off a number of teenagers from the local suburbs for hunting without permission. I will tell you, approaching a group of 16 year old with attitude, in camo and with guns to tell them to get off the property is not so fun.

Many, many responsible people keep and use guns but so many others really shouldn't have guns at all (including a few of my current neighbors).

Sure, there are lots of people (probably most) who keeping gun and treat them like they are a tool. But there are others who are careless or treat them as objects of power. That is why they scare me so.

JSwan
Jun. 14, 2010, 08:40 AM
One can always slit a beleaguered animal's throat . . .

It's funny you mention that because I don't think I could do it. Knives are very..... personal.

I once saw it done to dispatch a wounded deer - a few people stopped to render assistance but none of us had a firearm. One guy said he could do it if someone had a knife and I did.

He was pretty brave; deer hooves can mess you up pretty badly. I didn't see much because all we had was headlights but I think she was gone (or at least insensible) in a few seconds. Whatever he did it was very quick.



carolprdum - I'm sorry about your goat. How awful. One of my biggest nightmares is doing just that - especially since I have a small sneaky escape artist dog who likes to dig and hide under things and in tall grass. Farm accidents. Horrible.

Bluey
Jun. 14, 2010, 09:05 AM
If I got my story right, exanguination is how they slaughter kosher animals, cut their throats and bleed them out.
Studies show that, in five to six seconds, the animal is inconscious, so it is a rather quick death, if not as quick as any kind of brain trauma, that renders them practically immediatly unconscient.

As for suicides, people that are to that point will use most anything their pathology focuses on.
A local veterinarian hung himself, when he had guns and all kinds of drugs available to him.:confused:

vacation1
Jun. 14, 2010, 11:45 AM
Say Vacation, can you SHOW me statistics that state that the unarmed are culturally dominated over those who do carry a weapon? And most gun owners aren't paranoid, we exercise our 2nd amendment right, many gun owners are polite, are the most law abiding citizens you will find and/or meet, know the rules and regulations, and honestly, many you would not even know if they carry or if they don't, as we don't want you to know.

You misread me. I said the unarmed currently (in the West, at least) dominate the armed, culturally. I won't even touch the request for statistics on the opposite situation, which is clearly observable throughout human history.

Bluey
Jun. 14, 2010, 04:14 PM
Fascinating, would love to see those studies. They're certainly at odds with the studies showing exsanguination is a painful way to die and that it takes several minutes for an animal to lose consciousness.



And guns are impersonal and it's better to put your own animal only (not someone else's!) out of its misery with something impersonal? :confused:

I read a summary of those studies in Temple Grandin site a few years ago, when she herself and some of her students were doing such studies.

JSwan
Jun. 14, 2010, 04:27 PM
And guns are impersonal and it's better to put your own animal only (not someone else's!) out of its misery with something impersonal? :confused:

Please note I was replying to Deltawave's post in which SHE suggested a knife.

I did not.

In the context of my reply to Deltawave, I was ONLY referring to emergency euthanasia. Not putting down old Dobbin because he's arthritic. In an emergency euthanasia, the animal may be down or thrashing. Not even a vet could get close to the animal without risking injury.

There is an element of detachment in firearm use because you are physically farther from the animal.

I've only witnessed one emergency euthanasia (with a knife) of a terribly injured doe hit by a car. She passed quickly - or at least was rendered insensible within seconds.

I am not attempting to use that isolated incident to justify any particular position on any issue. I was merely describing the experience to another poster. I'm also not saying it is humane, inhumane, or is better than using a 12 pounder.

You're inferring a great deal based on a post that wasn't even directed at you.

If you've got a problem with the suggestion of using a knife, take it up with the person who made the suggestion. It wasn't me.

BelladonnaLily
Jun. 14, 2010, 08:31 PM
Only two. We took their guns, all their clothes and Id's, everything out of the car, their pictures, and told them I'd give them a 20 minute head start before calling the cops. I lied though, they were picked up a few miles down the road, and the Highway Patrolman was dying laughing ( I knew him) when he came to get their stuff. They were later sent back to the country that they came from.

Anyone that comes here looking for trouble will find it.

A friend of mine took the guns and keys to their four-wheelers from a couple of guys illegally hunting on his property one night (shots were fire extremely close to his residence), called the police and HE was arrested for assault (I think he shook one guy up a little and talked pretty tough to them, but nothing major) and some form of stealing private property (can't remember the exact charge). He did get the case thrown out, many attorney $$$ later, but it was quite a hassle. So, you really can't win...bet my friend wishes he'd at least stripped them down and sent them up the nearby major highway...at least he'd gotten some good laughs for his trouble.

carolprudm
Jun. 14, 2010, 08:47 PM
Fascinating, would love to see those studies. They're certainly at odds with the studies showing exsanguination is a painful way to die and that it takes several minutes for an animal to lose consciousness.



And guns are impersonal and it's better to put your own animal only (not someone else's!) out of its misery with something impersonal? :confused:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071229081745AA7YSyS

I have my goats slaughtered by a halal butcher. No, I don't watch but he explained that the cut must be very deep, with a very sharp knife, almost beheading the animal

deltawave
Jun. 14, 2010, 09:03 PM
Yes, I meant only that exsanguination is another way to fairly quickly kill something at greatest need. Not recommending it over other, more humane methods of euthanasia in any way, shape, or form. Although to me it would beat "waiting for the critter to die of shock" if it could be done by a bystander safely and competently.

Please note the rather large number of disclaimers in the above paragraph. :)

I've unfortunately witnessed death by exsanguination quite a few times, and other than the varying means of exsanguination (ie, where was the hole and what caused it) the bleeding process itself does not appear to me to cause a great deal of suffering in general. This, of course, is hugely, hugely variable depending on the circumstances. But if it needs to be done as a means of quickly dispatching suffering, the blood loss ought to be quick and copious. Transection of the carotid would seem to me to be the only way to do it in a horse. And although I'm not squeamish about blood, I don't think that would be an easy one for me to make happen. :no: However, none of us actually knows what we're capable of until we're put to the test, do we? Here's hoping this discussion remains solidly theoretical for each and every one of us. :yes:

subk
Jun. 14, 2010, 09:08 PM
Two suicides in my family (both using guns). My nephew's was horrific and pretty much ruined my sister's life since 1992. I don't keep guns in my house. But it seems like so many accidents that have happened in my life- happen because of guns.

My neighbor in Middletown, MD was hanging laundry and was killed by a deer hunter. He saw movement and shot.

Another neighbor shot himself in the leg when cleaning his gun.

We have had to remove/kick off a number of teenagers from the local suburbs for hunting without permission. I will tell you, approaching a group of 16 year old with attitude, in camo and with guns to tell them to get off the property is not so fun.

Many, many responsible people keep and use guns but so many others really shouldn't have guns at all (including a few of my current neighbors).

Sure, there are lots of people (probably most) who keeping gun and treat them like they are a tool. But there are others who are careless or treat them as objects of power. That is why they scare me so.
I find the emotion and angst in this post interesting. It is certainly your right and I do respect it, but I have to ask, how do you feel about back yard swimming pools? They are much, much more likely to result in a grievous outcome than a gun in someone's home. I read an interesting study that found that your child was much more likely to be killed in a private swimming pool than with a gun. (It wasn't done by a pro-gun nut, but an economist/statistician.) As far as redeeming values, unlike a gun which can be used for euthanasia and physical protection, a swimming pool's redeeming value is what? Entertainment? Objects of affluence? Do we have angst over deadly and dangerous swimming pools?

deltawave
Jun. 14, 2010, 09:14 PM
That's out of Freakonomics, I think. Interesting and breathtaking use of statistics, but sort of apropos of nothing. You can't use freak accidents and outlying occurrences to define the usefulness, safety, or global acceptance of something.

No child would die of drowning in a pool if there were no pools. However, you can't sneak a swimming pool into your car in a fit of rage and haul it over to someone's house to drown them with it, either. :) Neither argument settles the matter, but they do make us catch our breath and think--rarely a bad thing. :)

Personally cigarettes are the deadliest things I see on a daily basis. And McDonalds.

carolprudm
Jun. 14, 2010, 09:19 PM
I find the emotion and angst in this post interesting. It is certainly your right and I do respect it, but I have to ask, how do you feel about back yard swimming pools? They are much, much more likely to result in a grievous outcome than a gun in someone's home. I read an interesting study that found that your child was much more likely to be killed in a private swimming pool than with a gun. (It wasn't done by a pro-gun nut, but an economist/statistician.) As far as redeeming values, unlike a gun which can be used for euthanasia and physical protection, a swimming pool's redeeming value is what? Entertainment? Objects of affluence? Do we have angst over deadly and dangerous swimming pools?

We have a pool and it was great when our kids were teenagers....we always knew where they were and who they were with in the summer when school was out

We bought our farm from the estate of a man who took a six pack of beer and a chainsaw to cut firewood. It seemed he drank 4 of the beers sliced his arm off, and bled to death.

subk
Jun. 14, 2010, 09:24 PM
You can't use freak accidents and outlying occurrences to define the usefulness, safety, or global acceptance of something.
Go ask Reed about "freak accidents." :D Actually the only point I was trying to make is there is some breathtakingly dangerous stuff out there that we don't bat an eye at much less emote about about.

For every one of the personal stories of how guns have been involved in tragedies I've got one where they saved the day. Yet all of those stories are just that, stories of anecdotal evidence that really mean nothing at the end of the day. Until you try to put things in a bigger context it doesn't mean much. Not very many people seem interested in looking at the big picture where guns are concerned...

deltawave
Jun. 14, 2010, 09:24 PM
I daresay "stupid" and "careless" are far deadlier than cigarettes, guns, cars, and cancer all put together. :sigh:


Not very many people seem interested in looking at the big picture where guns are concerned... But what IS the "big picture"? :confused: There are so many ways to see the topic, and our unique American viewpoint is only one of them. Sociological statistics are so easy to flog into whatever shape we wish--really what it comes down to (and this seems pretty obvious on this thread) is whether or not an individual feels comfortable having, owning or using one if necessary, and whether or not that is somehow "OK" or not. I don't hear too much argument from either side that responsible, reasonable, and well-informed gun ownership is anything but A-OK for those who desire it. The purpose of a gun is to shoot things, and sometimes things need shooting. If one wishes to shoot things, one is obligated (or ought to be) to be absolutely responsible and within the law about it. If one has no wish to shoot things, that's all right also. *shrug*

What big picture is there, really? Either you want one or you don't, and if you do, you ought to do it within the law. In various parts of the world the laws are more or less restrictive. Weapons are used to hurt people sometimes. At other times, they could possibly be used defensively or in the case of animal husbandry to relieve suffering. But they are still inanimate objects, incapable of doing anything at all unless manipulated by the hands and the will of a human. There's the "big picture", I think--all humans are not alike. ;)

Cielo Azure
Jun. 14, 2010, 09:43 PM
I find the emotion and angst in this post interesting. It is certainly your right and I do respect it, but I have to ask, how do you feel about back yard swimming pools? They are much, much more likely to result in a grievous outcome than a gun in someone's home. I read an interesting study that found that your child was much more likely to be killed in a private swimming pool than with a gun. (It wasn't done by a pro-gun nut, but an economist/statistician.) As far as redeeming values, unlike a gun which can be used for euthanasia and physical protection, a swimming pool's redeeming value is what? Entertainment? Objects of affluence? Do we have angst over deadly and dangerous swimming pools?

The individual statistics in my family are that we all know how to swim but many of us have issues with suicide. In my circle of family and friends, people don't drown -but suicides seem to happen with every single generation and by the use of guns.

As we all know, suicide rates are significantly higher in states with high rates of household gun ownership.

The link to gun ownership and successful suicide rates is very high (see studies below). There are 16,000 cases of suicide by gun in the USA each year, about 30,000 deaths by guns each year in the USA and about 1800 cases of pool drownings -mostly young children in the USA per year (stats from the CDC).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20207465

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1308093

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:JnWZNPQZA8YJ:www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/files/Differences_in_Northeast_State_Suicide_Rates.pdf+s uicide+rates+gun+cdc&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShZC66mVJ_5aJgzjT2b9Kagn7qocSOEdch4U1Ju 1xpzz2Zo5rWkJzRWIwBwobOqKvTY9Qh13f-pieYDAvMN7k-44Bax_p2wT2qcbDsoxML5L8nhApAh_fzUjCneNWjCW8_6g-5H&sig=AHIEtbQjTFrQfdpUqGnvc2ujKYfDky1VYg

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/211982/suicide_rates_significantly_higher.html?cat=7

The types of remarks below are typical of most of the studies that look at suicide and guns statistics in the USA:

"The study authors stated that while only 5 percent of all suicide attempts involve guns, over 90 percent of all suicide attempts involving guns are fatal. By contrast, 75 percent of suicide attempts involve drug overdoses, but only 3 percent of these are fatal.

"Removing all firearms from one's home is one of the most effective and straightforward steps that household decision-makers can take to reduce the risk of suicide," Matthew Miller, assistant professor of health policy and management, said in a prepared statement. Miller led the research team. " (A big Harvard study -cited above).

So, I chose to reduce the risks for my family and friends, who visit and some -I would venture are at risk. It seems pretty self evident, given my family history that some family and some friends don't need to be around guns. I don't want them around guns, even guns that are locked up. Not in my house, not on my watch. Sorry you can't understand that, something tells me that there isn't much I could possibly write that would make you understand.

Having family members who scraped brains (yes brains) of my nephew off the wall, why would I want to go through that again with anyone I love?

If a deer suffers or a horse has to wait to be euthanized (I have plenty of drugs around here to knock unconscious) and yes, I can use a knife, so be it. I don't do guns.

Can I kill? Yep! Have I killed. Yep! I would venture to say that I have killed more animals than most people on this board. But in this house, no guns. not ever.

2ndyrgal
Jun. 14, 2010, 09:45 PM
I'm surprised by the number of people who say "not in my house". My husband is an ex police officer, he has a couple of handguns, which he is comfortable with. I prefer a rifle, you don't need to be close to your target. I grew up in a family of hunters that ate what they killed, growing up, I thought everyone had pheasant for Thanksgiving and Christmas dinner. We weren't hunting trophies, no heads on the walls, thank you. My husband wouldn't hesitate to shoot an intruder, but doesn't shoot critters, even the yucky ones. While I think he might be able to euth an animal in an emergency, It would have to be an absolutely last resort, no way he'd do it for anyone else, nor would I.

I shoot varmints in the barn or up too close to the house for comfort. I love nature, but draw the line at shooting baby racoons, while I know that if I relocate them, they'll be back as nasty big, crap on my hay and everything else raccons, I just can't shoot them in their tiny cute little faces. Once they move in and start destroying things, doing literally thousands of dollars in damages, well, as unpleasant as it is, as guilty as I feel for killing something that just found the best living situation it can for itself, I don't miss, they don't suffer, they're dead before they hit the ground. Better than being a coyote happy meal or getting killed on the road. Same with the feral cats, the population in this county is huge, and gets worse every year. When they move into the barn, if I can trap/catch them in a couple of weeks and neuter and release, ok. If they start attacking the other domestic barn cats and spraying everything, then they're going to go to the big litterbox in the sky.

I have heavy tranqs for the horses, just in case, and a good vet that's about 20 mins out and almost always has back up. Would I let my horse suffer or beg someone else if it came to that? Nope, but it would be the hardest thing I've ever done.

As an aside ladies, my husband tells his buddies that I shoot "scary good".

I don't recall him really ever getting me angry....

He does pay close attention to "Forensic Files" and "Snapped".

Might be coincidence, might not.

Catersun
Jun. 14, 2010, 09:47 PM
I daresay "stupid" and "careless" are far deadlier than cigarettes, guns, cars, and cancer all put together. :sigh:

But what IS the "big picture"? :confused: There are so many ways to see the topic, and our unique American viewpoint is only one of them. Sociological statistics are so easy to flog into whatever shape we wish--really what it comes down to (and this seems pretty obvious on this thread) is whether or not an individual feels comfortable having, owning or using one if necessary, and whether or not that is somehow "OK" or not. I don't hear too much argument from either side that responsible, reasonable, and well-informed gun ownership is anything but A-OK for those who desire it. The purpose of a gun is to shoot things, and sometimes things need shooting. If one wishes to shoot things, one is obligated (or ought to be) to be absolutely responsible and within the law about it. If one has no wish to shoot things, that's all right also. *shrug*

What big picture is there, really? Either you want one or you don't, and if you do, you ought to do it within the law. In various parts of the world the laws are more or less restrictive. Weapons are used to hurt people sometimes. At other times, they could possibly be used defensively or in the case of animal husbandry to relieve suffering. But they are still inanimate objects, incapable of doing anything at all unless manipulated by the hands and the will of a human. There's the "big picture", I think--all humans are not alike. ;)

are you on hold with an insurance company tonight??? ;) You seem to have put a lot of thought into this discussion.

I'm just suggesting we keep this horse related and it's drifting drastically off course.

deltawave
Jun. 14, 2010, 09:52 PM
I'm surprised by the number of people who say "not in my house". Why? It's kind of obvious it's a comfort thing--surely you don't think everyone, everywhere has the same kind of background and comfort level with weapons? :confused: I'm competent with rifle and pistol, an excellent shot, not squeamish, but am a "not in my house" type, I guess, if I were willing to be pigeonholed. Don't like 'em, don't want one, have no problem with someone else feeling the same, or differently, as long as the ones "with" are not outside the law or believe themselves to be a law unto themselves. I'm way more concerned about the brain controlling the actions than whether or not there's a weapon in the hand. :)

Catersun, no . . . I just think (and type) fast. :D And I can't resist an issue or argument in which there is no "right" or "wrong" side. :p

2ndyrgal
Jun. 14, 2010, 09:57 PM
I think your situation is very unique and I'm sure there is no one on this bb that does not understand your refusal to have guns in your house. You at least, have a very, very good reason, and haven't been judgemental of anyone else's decisions, one way or another. I'm not sure how I'd feel if a close family member chose suicide by gun, let alone multiple family members. What the statistics tell me, is that while a mere 5% of suicide attempts are with firearms, most of those succeed. If a person is truly that determined, one would think they'd likely find a way, regardless. It gives no one a chance to intervene, is usually private, and leaves little likelyhood that anyone else will be injured, and is usually instant. As a nurse, I have taken care of a couple of attempted firearm suicides that didn't succeed. Not good. At. All. My cousin committed suicide by driving his motorcycle off a side road directly into Interstate semi traffic. It came to light later on that he had attempted to buy or borrow a gun from several different people in the week prior to his death, but was not able to do so.
I'm pretty sure that the manner he died made no difference to his mother.

Miss J
Jun. 16, 2010, 10:56 AM
I think it's rather hypocritical to not have one but think it's ok to use the word "redneck" to describe those you'd call in your time of need or great sorrow.

I've had to dispatch gravely wounded (one possibly rabid or distempered) animals and frankly, it's not exactly a fun thing to do. In fact, it's quite terrible and sad; especially if the animal is in horrific pain.

Auto collisions come to mind. Thanks for running over an animal, leaving it in my front yard bleating in agony, and not even stopping. It's really a lot of fun to see the animal's broken and bleeding body, feel its pain and fear, and then put a bullet in its head.
Just sayin'. I'm not the redneck.

yes this:(:(:(:(:( I have found several of these including a days old fawn, legs broken scorching in the 40celcius heat!!!:mad::mad: nobody stopped!!! I will never ever leave an animal suffer if I hit it!!! someone in my area speed bumped a porcupine and left it to die on the road, I found the poor little creature dragging his mutilated carcass across the road to the grass, im glad my BF was with me because he was the one who ended its life.:(
And I also agree that just because someone has firearms does not mean they are redneck! I have over ten rifles/hand guns and I wouldnt consider myself redneck....hick maybe,:cool: redneck no.

bigbaytb
Jun. 16, 2010, 03:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wak32ZpnCyg&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wak32ZpnCyg&feature=player_embedded):lol::lol:

I have a handgun. I live in a townhome in suburbia. Never thought of owning a gun until 15 years ago when I had a stalker who started to threaten me...and my horses!. So, since I did alot of travelling by car and riding alone, my mom and brother (who also don't own guns) advised me to get a gun.

I went to the police station and got my permits where I was interviewed by the police cheif. He advised me if I had shoot someone, shoot to kill so I wouldn't get sued by them! :eek:

I then marched to the gun shop and purchased a Baretta .380 with hollow points and a smaller .22 pistol. I took shootingand gun handling lessons from an instructor. I actually took my boyfriend at the time with me to the range during one of my lessons. It was pretty funny when the instructor looked at my boyfriend and said "don't piss her off, she's a good shot" :yes:

Anyway, for five years that gun went everywhere I went. Even when I rode late night (as usual) at the barn by myself, I had it in a holster in the small of my back. Yes, I did worry about falling off and shooting my butt off so I made sure the safety was on; thankfully, I never fell. Fellow boarders and the BO knew I carried and always announced their arrival when i was the only one around :lol:

I no longer carry it since the stalker issue is resolved. The gun is in one place and my ammo in another since I do have a husband, nieces and nephews running around. However, it never crossed my mind that I should have it with me when I go to the current riding stable. We have alot of wildlife, inclucing coyotes and deer. The barn does not have medicines to humanely put an animal down. Maybe that is something I should consider! The BO wouldn't care if I carried, he drives around with a shotgun strapped to the front of his gator!

This has been a very informative and funny thread! Thanks!

Sithly
Jun. 16, 2010, 08:34 PM
My cousin committed suicide by driving his motorcycle off a side road directly into Interstate semi traffic. It came to light later on that he had attempted to buy or borrow a gun from several different people in the week prior to his death, but was not able to do so.
I'm pretty sure that the manner he died made no difference to his mother.

But it made a huge difference to the semi driver. How sad, all around.

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Jun. 16, 2010, 09:16 PM
Well, it is sad. We have an awful case here where a three year old girl was killed because a seventeen year old paraplegic and his girlfriend chose to complete their suicide pact by driving into oncoming traffic. The girlfriend and the three year old were the only fatalities, but the paraplegic boy will spend the next twenty years in prison.

How in the world did we get off on such a black tangent?:no:

I don't know. I just spent the last two hours of my working day with a woman whose abusive husband has earned a concealed carry permit and is terrorizing her, her six year old daughter, and her parents. I'm hoping I can keep her alive long enough to get in front of a judge.

None of which has jack to do with horses, I realize.

One maniac without a gun kills someone; one maniac with a gun hasn't yet and hopefully won't.

It's like swimming pools, or anything else risky - should we all have to give up the benefit of the risky thing because there are some idiots who will commit or allow mayhem to result? I think, if so, we'll have to give up horses as well, or at least riding lessons, which will amount to the same thing in a generation or so.

SuperSTB
Jun. 16, 2010, 09:35 PM
Another person here with a family history of death/grief due to fire arms. We have family members vehemently opposed to firearms and we have family who are hunters who don't think twice about owning and using them. I did grow up learning how to use and maintain firearms.

I had two guns in the house back east- locked up of course. But it'd probably take as long to unlock them, find the ammo and load them as it would to get the vet to the barn. I currently own no guns and haven't felt the need to acquire any either.

That said, I had been present and participant in emergency euthanizing of a horse- neighbor's horse. I feel pretty confident that I am capable of doing such a deed if the situation warranted it again.

Yes there are untold situations where a gun could be a good tool to have... but there are also alternate tools you can have that are easier and safer for a majority of people to use. Firearms are probably the more risky item to have.

And owning firearms requires maintenance- so if you have a gun and haven't touched it in god knows when... you might want to tend to it.