Dog left behind in New Orleans. Seen on CBS news.

[Whitfield Farm Hanoverians]

Did anyone else see the CBS news tonight (09/01) which showed a small white dog being left behind in New Orleans when it's owner boarded a bus for Texas? I will be forever haunted by that scene. A policeman had to pick it up & move it out of the way of the bus. I can just imagine the fear it feels right now. I'm asking for everyone to e-mail CBS evening news & ask for follow up on this dog. I know they have what may be more pressing problems but we need to get the message out that the animals need help too. This just made me sick. Let the major news stations hear from us all.

[Whitfield Farm Hanoverians]

Did anyone else see the CBS news tonight (09/01) which showed a small white dog being left behind in New Orleans when it's owner boarded a bus for Texas? I will be forever haunted by that scene. A policeman had to pick it up & move it out of the way of the bus. I can just imagine the fear it feels right now. I'm asking for everyone to e-mail CBS evening news & ask for follow up on this dog. I know they have what may be more pressing problems but we need to get the message out that the animals need help too. This just made me sick. Let the major news stations hear from us all.

[Cartier]

You didn’t see the Chow Chow mix left sleeping on a roof top of a flooded building… in a neighborhood under 10-12 feet of water… the dog had no food, drinking water or shade? That was a couple of days ago. The dog looked exhausted … as are the people caught in this tragic situation.

[RoyalTRider]

Let me be blunt about this. If my home were flooding rapidly and I had NO OTHER WAY of escape, my four cats, rabbit, and dog would be here. I love those animals DEARLY. With everything in me do I love these animals. If my family was at risk and saving us meant losing them, I don't have to think twice about what I would do. I love those animals completely. But in no situation in my mind does any animal life EVER come before any human life. Ever. Ever.

[Goodyfourshoes!]

edit

[lizathenag]

from AOL news:
At the back end of the line, people jammed against police barricades in the rain. Refugees passed out and had to be lifted hand-over-hand overhead to medics. Pets were not allowed on the bus, and when a police officer confiscated a little boy's dog, the child cried until he vomited. "Snowball, Snowball," he cried.

[Reynard Ridge]

The horror and suffering for all is unimaginable.

All, people, pets, livestock, wildlife, all are in my prayers.

[Cashela]

I saw the last second of it, when the policeman was scooping the dog up out of the way. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

It made me so sad. I so want to go down there and help the animals.

This is why I am donating what little money I can to the animals. They need help too.

[Windy Willow]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm asking for everyone to e-mail CBS evening news & ask for follow up on this dog. I know they have what may be more pressing problems but we need to get the message out that the animals need help too. This just made me sick. Let the major news stations hear from us all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just left CBS feedback I just can not see seperating the only thing left in someones life that they obviously loved being taken away from him after all their going through.I'm just sickened at the imcompassion.What harm is the animal going to do sitting in the lap of someone.when they got to the dome , maybe they could then take the animals to a shelter and put the owners name on it or something but to leave it there?? Now thats inhumane

p.s. I had seen a women holding a white small dog and I thought how lucky/fortunate it was and also showed that the women must of been a kind hearted women.I'm sure it was the same dog that was the little boys....soooooooo sad http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[EqTrainer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lizathenag:
from AOL news:
At the back end of the line, people jammed against police barricades in the rain. Refugees passed out and had to be lifted hand-over-hand overhead to medics. Pets were not allowed on the bus, and when a police officer confiscated a little boy's dog, the child cried until he vomited. "Snowball, Snowball," he cried. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The inhumanity those people are suffering is unspeakable. I want to vomit, too, after reading this. To lose everything but have managed to keep your doggie with you and then lose him, too?

[Anyplace Farm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cashela:
I saw the last second of it, when the policeman was scooping the dog up out of the way. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

It made me so sad. I so want to go down there and help the animals.

This is why I am donating what little money I can to the animals. They need help too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too. I figure the majority of people are going to give to the human cause, which of course is of utmost importance. But I just don't think people can focus as much on the animals down there so I gave to the LA SPCA.

No one is going to run a national commercial about giving to that and there aren't any concerts or radiothons that are going to raise money for the little guys. I rallied my troops and had everyone send money via their site.

Seeing the images of the stranded, abandoned dogs just broke my heart. And hearing some of the stuff they said on CNN (their site) about a dog tangled up in live electrical wire horrified me.

[incentive]

The choices that must be made by rescue personnel in this unimaginable chaos must be heart-wrenching for them as I'm sure that many, many of them are animal folks too. I'm certainly not defending the decision as being right. There has been so little news about what actually is happening to the thousands of animals. I've wondered if this is a conscious choice being made by the networks so as to not further enrage viewers as to the dismal way the New Orleans situation is being handled. Maybe the powers that be think the public is better off not knowing. Maybe they are trying to avoid the firestorm that this info would surely cause. Let's hope that for Snowball and the other pets that have made it this far that someone will scoop them up and get them on the bus---or whatever means of escape there is.

[jilltx]

I am just so very sad http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[Erin]

Actually, this happens pretty frequently in disasters. Most emergency shelters WON'T allow evacuees to bring pets with them. I'm not entirely sure why... I assume they are worried about being able to provide for humans, and probably rightfully so.

That's why there are so many animal organizations who specialize in rescuing animals after disasters, or providing evacuation shelter for animals... because so frequently the owners just aren't allowed to take them with. And, obviously, in some of these horrible situations, Snowball may be all that a family has left. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[birdsong]

I CAN'T read this!!!! God...I had a dog named Snowball as a small child.

I am so sad...and helpless feeling....HOW can people talk about going to shows and such when this nightmare is occuring??

There but for the Grace of God go I.......

[Ghazzu]

From a colleague:

"the AVMA Veterinary Medical Assistance Team and
the Houston SPCA are working together to set up a displaced animal
shelter on the Baton Rouge Campus and at another site a few miles from
Baton Rouge. Donations are being taken for this cause. You can make
your check payable to The Walter J. Ernst Veterinary Memorial Foundation
and write Disaster Relief Fund on the memo line. Donations should be
sent to the LVMA, 8550 United Plaza Blvd, Suite 1001, Baton Rouge LA
70809."

[incentive]

birdsong, I agree with you. Such matters seem so trivial at the moment. In SE VA, we're coming up on our 2 year anniversary of Isabelle, just a Cat 1; but I clearly remember looking out my kitchen window at the 4 feet of water in my backyard complete with whitecaps! We all know here that the next storm could have our name on it. We both drive station wagons because we know we have to have a means of getting out of Dodge with all of our animals. My girlfriend in Roanoke knows to expect our carravan to arrive in her driveway seeking shelter! If COTH BBers ever needed to send jingles and hugs to those in dire situations, this is certainly the time. Of course we need to send whatever donations we can to help the people and animals directly affected.

[BLBGP]

It's health regulations - in diasaster situations, the red cross and other "people rescuers" have to take the people first. It's awful, but what if there is someone on that bus deathly allergic to dogs or if another dog allowed into a shelter might be viscious to strangers? They can't take that risk.

Starting about ten years ago in California, the Red Cross and local SPCA's began partnerships where the SPCA would set up a temporary shelter outside of the human shelter. In this case, I think the animal organizations are too overwhelmed - although I know they are doing it in Houston. And outside the Superdome isn't a great place to be right now.

I'm sure Snowball will be fine - he's with authorities who know where to send him. He will probably end up in Houston. Hopefully he's microchipped or at least has a collar so his family can reclaim him in the near future.

The Louisiana SPCA is in the trenches leading rescue teams. Their shelter is underwater, but they evacuated their animals to Houston before the storm and are back rescuing more. Houston has become the staging ground for most evacuated animals.

Both are great places to give donations. They are leading the efforts. Houston also put out requests for items such as large and extra large dog crates to create temporary shelters for animals.

Please be wary of national organizations claiming to be on the ground assisting and make sure that the funds are going strictly to hurricane relief efforts and not in a general fund.

[Kerrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">. But in no situation in my mind does any animal life EVER come before any human life. Ever. Ever. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My own personal 2cents:

I would say that the love I have for my animals is equal to the love I have for the members of my family. My cat and my horses are the most important things in my life. I would do ANYTHING for them, including jumping infront of a speeding bus to save them.

I live in a hurricane prone area and we have an evacuation route planned - including my cat. (the horses are far enough away from storm-surge or main damage) We throw an overnight bag in the car, grab the cat, cat litter and cat food and drive like a bat out of hell. We have family up north, I have friends out west... we get in the car and take the ENTIRE family to safety-- that includes the cat.

He is as much family as our human members of the family.

From a spiritual standpoint, to me, a life is a life and the vessel that it comes in is irrelevant. The spirit contained within is what is of value. And I know that my animals have offered me love and support during times where my family has caused me nothing but strife. The unconditional love and loyalty offered me by my animals is something I would NEVER EVER forget during a time of crisis.


I respect your right to feel that way, RoyalT, but man I hope you never farm-sit for me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Kerry

[Goodyfourshoes!]

edit

[Luvinfoofy]

Unfortunately, for people without vehicles or places to go, it isn't so easy to pack up the pets and take them along. Tough, but some people really have very few choices.

[YankeeLawyer]

I can't read through all of these threads; they are too sad.

But, if they weren't going to allow pets on the buses, they should NOT have told people to bring them to the Superdome. It is just plain cruel to make them part with pets at the last minute like that. And, while that may very well be official policy, I do think many decisions are being made very arbitrarily and are without any basis in regulations. I don't think these people have any coherent or effective plan; it is so sad.

I concede that if faced with a choice between saving a human life and that of a pet, priority should be given to the human. But I do not agree that anyone should have had to choose between the two under these circumstances.

RE the allergy concerns, etc -- obviously that was not a concern to the officials who allowed the pets into the Superdome to begin with.

[RubysMom]

In light of the stinking, putrid mess the Superdome has become, I would think allergies are the LEAST of their problems.
Let people take their pets.

[Jewels]

Although I"m very disheartened that so many animals are left helpless in these situations. I can't get the story out of my head of the mother trying to get on an evacuation bus with her two year old kid. She couldn't climb up with the kid so passes it to someone else to hold. She was pushed out of the way by the panicking people and the bus left without her! Now they are having trouble reuniting the mother and kid! I can't imagine how frantic she must be! My thoughts and prayers to them, the animals and everyone else affected.

[CosmosMariner]

None of this is fair. It is all heartbreaking. I pity those who had to make the decsion. I cannot believe the incredible deprivation. A child separated from its mother, a little dog left behind, a dog clinging to the roof. It is all so very sad.

[Daydream Believer]

I read this thread last night after a 5 hour roundtrip to pick up my stallion at the breeding clinic, so I didn't post. I was tired...but the image of Snowball and the crying little boy has haunted my sleep all night. I can only place myself in the little boy's place and know the grief and loss he must be feeling for his pet...and I know that the little dog might have been all that kept him going the last few days in that hellhole...one piece or normalcy left in his young life. I pray that someone is caring for little Snowball now, who is probably just as unhappy as the little boy, and maybe some kind person will smuggle him on board the next bus and help him find the little boy...I know I'm dreaming to think this but I can only hope and pray.

I could not have gotten on that bus and left my dog. I would not have... but as an adult I have that choice. That child did not have that choice and it just breaks my heart to think of this scene playing over and over...

[cowboylogic]

What groups or organizations are there helping the dogs and cats that are left behind? I didnt see the clips of the dog being left- but my friend saw another of them leaving a dog on the roof when the boat came and got the people- who comes for the dog?? Do the news crews ever try and help- they obviously see it as they are videoing it-

I cannot imagine ever leaving my pets and it is almost impossible to imagine those people in the hurricane area having to do so either, when they are already in such a bad way. It is heartbreaking.

[Briggsie]

I understand the value of human life...but to me, I equate my dogs and horses on the same level as mine. I could in no way, leave Deco behind. That dog has been through so much, and literally never left me behind. He saved my life, how the hell could I do that to him? I love him dearly, and I know I am going to be made fun of for this or people are going to say how can I be so stupid...but I would rather stay and die if it came down to leaving my freaking dog. I would not want to live with that for the rest of my life. I am sure the guilt and depression and anger of the haunting image of leaving him would do me in. I am crying just thinking about it. The bast#$#ds in this country cannot even help people...let alone animals...so I would not leave behind my best friend in the whole world, to leave my life in the hands of them. I would rather stay and die. I love my dog too much. Yeah yeah, I am sick, but oh well.

[monstrpony]

Hell. Just, hell. I cannot imagine being in this situation. I know where my rescue $$ are going.

[Duffy]

OMG - I missed the Snowball story - http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

How about the guy who swam 8 hours with his dogs to at least a temporarily "safe" place! The dogs were on the rooftop with this group of people.

I wasn't quite sure about the point of the very nice guy who lost his $1 million dollar home who was now reciding in a $44/night Econolodge....He did have two very nice dogs with him. I guess they were pointing out that the tragedy not only hits the poor, but the wealthy as well...

[horseshoe]

SGaHB-
sorry if this seems harsh, but i will absolutely NOT be emailing major news stations. i dont think the best thing to do right now is send criticism from the sunny, safe north. i cant imagine that anyone down there is underestimating the tragedy of the situation and needs a kick in the pants! it just seems so disrespectful to all the people down there suffering and working to help. send money and supplies not criticism.

on a side note:
i also love my pets as much as my human family, but look at it from this perspective. snowball, if allowed on the bus, is a drain on the resources of the rescue mission. not to mention that he would add to the huge sanitation problem. it is just unreasonable to expect the rescuer to sacrifice other peoples' chances survival to save a pet. It is unbelievably sad and a lose-lose situation for all of those involved (snowball, the boy, and policeman), but that is what makes this a tragedy.

[Joanne]

I saw the little dog on the news, also. It looked to me to be a Bichon or Poodle. He/she was so darn cute, I can't image someone not snatching it up immediately.

New Orleans has a zoo, also. I've not heard how they are making out.

[ClemsonGraduateRider]

I did see, last night on the Dateline special, that the NG was allowing people to get on some of the buses with their dogs. They kept repeating footage of a guy getting on a bus with his brindle-esque colored small dog under his arm so I don't know what the policy really is . . . http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[buryinghill2]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Briggsie:
I understand the value of human life...but to me, I equate my dogs and horses on the same level as mine. I could in no way, leave Deco behind. That dog has been through so much, and literally never left me behind. He saved my life, how the hell could I do that to him? I love him dearly, and I know I am going to be made fun of for this or people are going to say how can I be so stupid...but I would rather stay and die if it came down to leaving my freaking dog. I would not want to live with that for the rest of my life. I am sure the guilt and depression and anger of the haunting image of leaving him would do me in. I am crying just thinking about it. The bast#$#ds in this country cannot even help people...let alone animals...so I would not leave behind my best friend in the whole world, to leave my life in the hands of them. I would rather stay and die. I love my dog too much. Yeah yeah, I am sick, but oh well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not in any way think you are "stupid". I would not leave my pets behind either. They ARE my family. I to would die with my pets rather than leave them behind to die alone. So if you are crazy or stupid than I guess I am too!

[ise@ssl]

I feel it's unfair to assume that the people charged with RESCUEING AND RELOCATING PEOPLE get some sort of pleasure out of separating people (including children) and their pets.

But get your heads screwed on straight - this isn't about missing the next bus on a field trip - it's about HUMAN SURVIVAL. For those who feel they could never leave their pets behind - that is their choice but dying with your pets might be the result.

We can write and rant for hours about this situation but if you go back over the news information - precious valuable time was lost when the Mayor of New Orleans and (IMHO) the totally disfunctional Governor of Louisiana EXHALED and assumed they were going to be O.K.
Every time that Governor was on TV she looked like she was about to start crying - she's the point person the HAVE A PLAN, assure the people this will be under control and people will be helped. While we can try to pass the buck to the Feds on this - it just doesn't work. EVERY SINGLE STATE IN THE UNION IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE DISASTER PLANS - LARGE CITIES AS WELL. What happened here was NO PLAN - CHAOS LEADING TO ANARCHY. They didn't even declare Martial Law immediately - which would have allowed the police to shoot to kill which would have brought the looting to a halt early.

If you've ever been to New Orleans (as someone who worked in development industry for years) it begs the questions how they could PERMIT construction of homes below the level of surrounding bodies of water using wood frame construction. This isn't rocket science. Homes should have been built on concrete w/steel footings at LEAST 1 1/2 stories high.

Is it tragic that animals died - YOU BET - but there are bodies of PEOPLE floating around the entire region - GET A GRIP. They don't even know how many people are dead or missing.

And there have been NUMEROUS news reports and press releases on how to help with animals - on TV, radio, newspapers and all over the internet including this BB.

Before you point a finger at the people trying to load starving dehydrated homeless people on to transports to a convention center THAT CLEARLY CANNOT ACCOMODATE DOGS - ask yourself what your plan is? Do you have bottled water, canned foods, etc. etc. etc.? If you are planning to take all of your animals - how and to where? If you are planning to stay - do you have food/water etc. to sit it out?

People trying to rescue people don't deserve one word of criticsm. If you feel it's an easy job - VOLUNTEER WITH THE RED CROSS OR SOME OTHER AGENCY AND DO IT.

And to those of you who will not leave your pets and die with them you must not have any other people including children in your life who MUST COME FIRST.

[Erin]

I did see footage of boats unloading people AND dogs, so I don't think they are necessarily just leaving animals. But, let's face it, a boat can only hold so much weight, and if it's a choice of taking a child or a dog... can't blame them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[DJ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I would say that the love I have for my animals is equal to the love I have for the members of my family. My cat and my horses are the most important things in my life. I would do ANYTHING for them, including jumping infront of a speeding bus to save them.

I live in a hurricane prone area and we have an evacuation route planned - including my cat. (the horses are far enough away from storm-surge or main damage) We throw an overnight bag in the car, grab the cat, cat litter and cat food and drive like a bat out of hell. We have family up north, I have friends out west... we get in the car and take the ENTIRE family to safety-- that includes the cat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well here is a major difference between you and many of the people that have been vicitmized by this storm. You have a plan because you care about the lives entrusted to your care. Heck I saw one news interview the night before the storm came in with a woman and her 3 year old daughter. They were going to ride the storm out on her boyfriends SHRIMP boat! They are all probably dead now. I couldn't believe that while they might not value their own lives that they would put that precious little girl in harm's way. Her face, so trusting, haunts me.

I understand that there were some truly indigent people living in New Orleans, but some were just foolish that stayed. I am so sad that I couldn't or their local government couldn't override the people's bad judgemnent and just get them out of there. They had like what 3 days warning?

And now, an NBC reporter sees all of these buses and ambulances lined up outside of town. So he goes to them and asks, "why don't you go in and help, we can get in with our crews?" The answer was that they wouldn't, it was not safe to do so and that they had promised their wife not to go in. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif It's not like its a freaking war zone, these are our citizens and neighbors!

I am sad for the animals, but the human tragedy is SO overwhelming. (Part of that is the pain of the loss of pets)

[Whitfield Farm Hanoverians]

Well, of course we all have varying opinions as to the value we place on animals, the rescue efforts, etc. I started this post not to critcize the news media or to inundate them with nasty e-mails. I just want them to follow up with any animal rescue that may be occuring, encourage further animal rescues, shed the light on the trauma of leaving pets behind (both to owners & their pets), & spread the word as to any available pet rescue operations that may need assistance either bodily or financially. Lets just all continue to pray daily for all affected, both animals & people. I am one of those people who could not leave my animals no matter what. They are my children. Period. I do respect other's values as we all have to make our own choices & live with the choices we make.

[horseshoe]

"But get your heads screwed on straight - this isn't about missing the next bus on a field trip - it's about HUMAN SURVIVAL. For those who feel they could never leave their pets behind - that is their choice but dying with your pets might be the result."

Yes i agree, if you refuse to be separated from your pet that is your choice to make, but you must risk YOUR life to do it not the lives of OTHERS.

"Is it tragic that animals died - YOU BET - but there are bodies of PEOPLE floating around the entire region - GET A GRIP. They don't even know how many people are dead or missing. "

edited...sorry we posted at the same time. i think rallying support for the animals down there is wonderful and very needed, i am just trying to say that a lot of tact is necessary to avoid placing additional guilt on the policemen (or anyone else down there) for the extremely difficult choices they are having to make. I'm sure everyone living through this hell will be haunted by thier choices for a long time...

[trailblazer]

The choice is simple for me. I would sooner die than leave my dog behind. As much as I would hate to, I would leave the horses. But never the dog.

We should be careful not to blame the rescue workers, who were just doing their jobs. They are in no position to be worrying about animals. And I doubt they would take the time to make sure these animals get to shelters. They have enough to worry about.

As tragic as it is for people to not be able to take their animals along, this is the choice they made. If I had to give up my dog to get on the bus to Texas, without a second though I would not get on that bus. I can understand how someone would put their life above that of their dogs, but if this is the decision they choose to make, let's not blame the rescue workers who are already overworked in the face of this disaster.

[flyingchange]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kerrison:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">. But in no situation in my mind does any animal life EVER come before any human life. Ever. Ever. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My own personal 2cents:

I would say that the love I have for my animals is equal to the love I have for the members of my family. My cat and my horses are the most important things in my life. I would do ANYTHING for them, including jumping infront of a speeding bus to save them.

I live in a hurricane prone area and we have an evacuation route planned - including my cat. (the horses are far enough away from storm-surge or main damage) We throw an overnight bag in the car, grab the cat, cat litter and cat food and drive like a bat out of hell. We have family up north, I have friends out west... we get in the car and take the ENTIRE family to safety-- that includes the cat.

He is as much family as our human members of the family.

From a spiritual standpoint, to me, a life is a life and the vessel that it comes in is irrelevant. The spirit contained within is what is of value. And I know that my animals have offered me love and support during times where my family has caused me nothing but strife. The unconditional love and loyalty offered me by my animals is something I would NEVER EVER forget during a time of crisis.


I respect your right to feel that way, RoyalT, but man I hope you never farm-sit for me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Kerry </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen, sister.

[inca]

I agree that you can't expect the overwhelmed rescue workers to even give a second thought about pets in this situation. There are tens of thousands of PEOPLE in danger of dying.

It breaks my heart to think about both the people and the animals that are suffering. No one in American should have to struggle for survival like it is a third world country.

I would NEVER expect someone that is farm sitting for me to put my animals welfare before their own. I would not want them to risk their life for my animals. My horses are like my children but I couldn't live with myself if someone died trying to save them. My heart would ache indescribably if something happened to my horses but it's not worth someone else dying. I might put my life at risk to save them but would not want anyone else doing that.

[*A*Horse*Named*Horse*]

No one sitting on a computer right now reading the forums can really say how they would feel. We are not there...we don't know how we would react...what we would do exactly. Since 9/11, I have had not only a plan for my home and "house" pets, but also our horses.

As with my job in the emergency medical / first responder field, we have many different situations that we take into consideration - fires, floods, terrorist attacks, etc. We all can learn from this. If you dont have a plan, make one now! Organize a "helping hands" plan with your friends, family and neighbors. For example, if you do not have a trailer, but the farm down the road does, work out a plan where they will come over and move your horses as needed in an emergency situation. Keep contacts with farms, kennels and relatives out of the 50 mile area surrounding your home. If something does happen, you have places to go..both you and your animals that is out of the center of the "danger area." Sometimes, there is little warning when a disaster strikes..times when you do not have the time to put a complete plan into action. For cases like this, the best thing is to HAVE DONE your homework. Know the land that surrounds your immediate area. For example, in areas that are known to have tornadoes, which can hit randomly and quick, know where you and your animals can go - highway overpasses, storm shelters, caves, tunnels, etc.

What I have found works best when making a plan up for disasters, read up on HUMAN plans. There are many references that have good plans for people. Take that info. and adapt it to fit your needs...including horses and other pets. Work with your local police, fire and EMS. Planning and teamwork are the key to survival in disasterous situations. Make sure that you think about all the "what if's" when you are making your plan. This way, as with the World Trade Center tragedy, you don't look back and ask yourself "what if".

We cannot take back what happened, save those who have already died, help the animals that are already lost....but we can plan for the future.

Godspeed to all those who are on their way to the "scene"....and pray those angels are riding along on those horses in the south who have been left alone.

[Erin]

There WAS a mandatory evacuation... but apparently "mandatory" doesn't really mean mandatory. They cannot force people to leave. There are always people who decide to ride out the storm, for whatever reason... sometimes they can't get out, sometimes they feel they have to stay behind to take care of animals they can't evacuate, sometimes they just don't want to leave.

[inca]

IMO, mandatory should mean there is help for the people that CAN'T evacuate because of health or financial reasons. How can you evacuate when you have no car and maybe $20 left from your last paycheck? They should have had those buses there BEFORE the storm to help people get out.

[Ishi]

Duffy, I saw that man and his 3 dogs this morning on the Today show. He said how he kept apologising to them the whole time in the water, for making them swim, that he kept talking to them the whole time. They all looked beyond tired. One had a wound on his hind leg. Then the man buried his face into one dog's neck and started to cry. I lost it then. It hit home. Oh God, I hope there is NEVER a time in my life where I have to make the choices or decisions these people had to make.

DJH, my boyfriend and I saw that woman and her daughter too. Has anyone heard about them? That child's face, looking up at her Mom, fully trusting her choices. I can't imagine how they could have survived on the shrimp boat, but I've been thinking of them for days!

[Erin]

The people on the shrimp boat were fine.

[DJ]

Really Erin? That would be such a little source of light for me right now, to see the story that they are safe. I swear, it has been bothering me for days.

[Ridley]

Ishi, that TV segment was the big turning point for me. I sobbed because I could recognize those choices.

For those on the list that are concerned that we're not doing the right thing for those people. Remember that the resuce workers are experiencing all the horrible things we see on the news on a very personal level -- and many times over what we see. The military, national guard, red cross and individuals will experience things no one should see once in their life over and over again. Our government and our military will make mistakes, but every single one of the people involved cares and is trying to do the right thing in a situation where decisions are impacted by things we can't imagine.

From here, in my nice airconditioned home, I can second guess every decision our president, and all his supporting officials are making. But, I recognize that I don't know all the factors influencing their decisions. They have my support.

[Erin]

Well, unless something has happened to them since the storm... which is certainly a possibility. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I didn't see the intial story about them, but apparently whichever network aired it (CNN?), they got TONS of emails and calls from people about it. I saw a piece following up on them on Monday night, maybe? And they apparently didn't have any trouble.

[fernie fox]

I just got a note on a FLorida e-mail list,That they are rounding up animals and Killing them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I have asked them to confirm where that info came from and to provide a link.

[monstrpony]

Does anyone wonder why we're getting so much news, particularly pictures, OUT of the area, and it seems to be so difficult to get aid (water and food) IN? Are the news copter pilots more foolhardy about the snipers than the rescue copter pilots? Are the rescue copters more at risk just because they are carrying supplies? How can WE know about the people at the convention center but those on the ground in the area don't know about them? What is the role of the news people in this? Are they not getting their information where it's needed most, but instead getting it where the $$ comes from?

I'm not criticizing anyone, I'm just completely stumped about this situation. I just don't get it.

[Sleepy]

Well, monstrpony, I will be blunt and criticize. If the news crews can get in, why can relief efforts! It seems to me that no one has a plan. And for all our hurricanes (and we do have some experience here), people sent stuff, not money. These people have no stuff and there's no place down there to buy it. Here in central/eastern NC we are taking the bull by the horns and going to send the usual 'stuff'. A vet is organizing a trip for help the animals and my BO is planning to go. And a local radio station is doing the usual 'fill a truck and send it'.

PS - If anyone in the Raleigh area has extra buckets, halters, dog crates, etc., bring it to Summerfield and we'll see that it gets there.

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJH (used to be Sparkie):
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I would say that the love I have for my animals is equal to the love I have for the members of my family. My cat and my horses are the most important things in my life. I would do ANYTHING for them, including jumping infront of a speeding bus to save them.

I live in a hurricane prone area and we have an evacuation route planned - including my cat. (the horses are far enough away from storm-surge or main damage) We throw an overnight bag in the car, grab the cat, cat litter and cat food and drive like a bat out of hell. We have family up north, I have friends out west... we get in the car and take the ENTIRE family to safety-- that includes the cat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well here is a major difference between you and many of the people that have been vicitmized by this storm. You have a plan because you care about the lives entrusted to your care.

[...]

I understand that there were some truly indigent people living in New Orleans, but some were just foolish that stayed. I am so sad that I couldn't or their local government couldn't override the people's bad judgemnent and just get them out of there. They had like what 3 days warning?

[...]

I am sad for the animals, but the human tragedy is SO overwhelming. (Part of that is the pain of the loss of pets) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, another major difference between you and many of the victims is that you have:
- a car
- friends outside the city
- a credit card

Many of the people who stayed behind had none of those things, and although it was "Mandatory", no transport or assistance was provided. By "Mandatory" what they meant was that everyone should get in their cars and join the gridlock on the roads out of town.

I don't live in the SE and I'm not an emergency worker, but even I knew that this scenario was predicted for New Orleans. FEMA in 2000 had three disasters that they thought were the most likely and most terrible: A terrorist attack on NYC, hurricane hits NO, earthquake in San Francisco. (Let's hope they only get 2/3). The real problem is that even though these nightmarish numbers and scenarios had been worked out, I think with the Cat 2 and 3 storms grazing the area, no one truly BELIEVED and no one was willing to stick their necks out and say, "Hey, let's put that navy hospital ship off the coast of FL this week just in case. Let's get the National Guard deployed with trucks of water and MREs just in case." Everyone knew there would be roughly 100,000 left even after a mandatory evacuation.

I thank from the bottom of my heart every rescue worker who is there on the ground working. I have heard them say with grief that they were forced to leave pets behind. The higher-ups, who are supposed to be giving orders, are the ones who have failed us, and them. Every time I see one of them on TV looking rested and confident and spouting platitudes I want to be sick. When I see them once an hour giving the same spiel on just one network, I wonder when it is they're doing all these wonderful things they claim to be doing. (Anderson Cooper finally interrupted Mary Landrieu to say that the thanks she was giving to various politicians really didn't seem very appropriate given that there were rats gnawing on dead bodies.)

I hope someone was able to get in and help the family with those minis in Mississippi.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

Anyone see the minis on CNN this AM? Owner was appealing to anyone in mini horses socirty to help them - 3 dead already...I didn't see it, so don't know details of where they are, nor how to help...

[ise@ssl]

Well these questions about putting the National Guard on alert should be directed to the GOVERNORS of each state. They can put them on alert at any time or deploy them to certain areas.

As far as the Hospital ships - they take days to move around Poltroon and the reason they stay in harbor is so that they aren't in harms way and can be deployed. If you put them out at sea - they would have to keep moving away from the storm. As the FACTS show - this storm took a very complicated route after it hit the east coast of Fla and even up to the the last few hours - the location where the eye would come on shore in the gulf was not what they expected.

But again - the New Orleans area and the Governor of LA exhaled too soon before they took the time to get feedback on not only the storm damage but the storm surge affect on the levies.

People CAN be forced to evacuate - under Martial Law but it was not declared. And New Orleans does have public transportation and bus service- people could have moved out of the flood areas in NO.

As I stated before WHAT WAS THE PLAN???? ...states and Cities - hell even our local rural community here in NJ had to put one in place after 9/11. Knowing where elderly people live is ONE list that each community should have to make sure there is a contact person to get to them and evacuate them.

Knowing that it makes sense to GET OUT when you are told to do that has nothing to do with how much money you have. It comes from local government making sure they have a plan in place to set the wheels turning to evacuate everyone if necessary.

Go to this link and look at the photos -
http://www.amha.org/pdf/memb/Bradford%20Press%20Release.pdf
specifically starting at #22 where it shows the failure of the levies. Look at the homes that were built in that area - why on God's earth would they allow people to build this far below surrounding or adjacent water??? And should we now put money into rebuilding there in the same way? Even if the Army corps of Engineers comes up with some plan to reinforce the levies - would it be worth the risk of possibly having this happen again?

[hundredacres]

Here is what the AMHA is doing for the mini's. Waveland, BTW, is my old neighborhood - we sold the home we owned 4 blocks from the beach 4 years ago. I remember this miniature horse farm......

http://www.amha.org/pdf/memb/Bradford%20Press%20Release.pdf

[Briggsie]

I guess this is all relative to what you love. I love both humans and animals...but see no less value, and have never believed that any life is more superior than the next....just because I am human does not mean I should have a better chance in any horrible situation. I know I will be blugeoned for that statement....I do have a grip, but that is just my opinion, does not mean I dont understand what SOCIETY thinks I should. My dog, like someone elses 4 year old, is just as important to me, as someones child is. That is why I say it is all relevant to what you love. I just know, and yeah someone on here said, "well when it comes down to it, you can die with your animals then" well no shi# ! maybe I would rather choose that anyway. I would never leave my human children behind, and if it came down to me or them, I would chose them...but since in the animal case, I would have no choice...I would stay. Now...knowing I had a choice to get out of Dodge...I sure as hell would have! I would have literally done so...packed the trailer, got the dogs, and hit the road in my dodge. I would not be dumb enough to be left sitting on my roof with dead bodies floating around me. Am in insensitive to those who are in those situations, NO. By no means. I feel for them and cry everytime I watch tv because I cannot even imagine their devestation. That is the bottom line....these people are devestated. I feel hopeless, helpless, and very very blessed to have what I have. My aunt lives in Saucier,Mississippi down where it hit...and thank God she is alive...so yeah, I know what they are going through. She tells me about the chaos. Her cell phone works, and she lost alot, but is still alive. I just dont even know what to say, but since the topic stands....I could not live with leaving my dog...

[Ishi]

Thank you Erin, I have been thinking of that child since Sunday afternoon when I saw that story!

That man, and his dogs broke my heart. What really made me cry was the realization this in just one man and his decision with his pets. Hundreds of thousands others are there, and were faced with choices God willing I will never have to make. I guess it is simply overwhelming to me to understand. I too sit in my home, surrounded by my dogs, horses, and macaw. I can't imagine, sitting here like this now, what all those people went through and are currently enduring, all over the south.

[Briggsie]

i would never chose a human over an animal...i just meant what i would do,....and that i could not leave my dog, if given a choice....if i was the only one being affected...because I love them just as much as anyone else loves thier kids. but over a crying baby or a dog....yeah, i would have to say I would have some serious counseling to be put through, because I would be so torn up by it.

[ise@ssl]

Well when I see those people on their roofs with houses all around them .....I have to wonder ...wasn't there ONE SINGLE NEIGHBOR who could have helped get that person out? Obviously the people in the surrounding houses are gone - and yes maybe some died but certainly not all.

And if it comes to fitting people into vehicles to evacuate - I'll be the first person to pull someone's dog out (including my own) to make room for another human being - including a crying baby.

We even have a rule here on our farm. Horses get hurt before people do. No one is supposed to take any risky chances on getting hurt just to keep a horse from getting hurt. Consider that without humans the animals certainly might not survive.

And my husband will be the first to wave his hand and attest to the fact that I put 1000% of my energies into the care of all my 20+ horses/ponies, Scotties, barn cats and one African Gray - but in a natural disaster - they do not come before people. EVER.

[nettiemaria]

Okay, I GUESS that people are more important, but I would NEVER leave my animals behind. But I don't have animals flipping me off on the way to work and honking the second the light turns green, or backstabbing, trying to steal money and scam other people. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, yeah that's right, NEVER.

I would have stayed there. I could not have left the animal there to die on top of a roof, to be baked by the sun there all alone, or to run under a bus wheel. I would not have went anywhere. Yes, it would be like Noah's Ark if I ever had to evacuate, but then sobeit. Somehow I would find a way. Of course if I HAD to choose between a child and an animal, then it would be the child, I don't know if the same holds true for all adults though. But, I don't see any circumstance where that has to happen. They could have let the dog go with the owner.

[ise@ssl]

Just curious - and if you died of dehydration and/or starvation and these animals lived - what exactly do you think would happen to them in a disaster like this?

[austin]

I have not read the whole thing, but what everyone (animals and people) need now is a little less talk and a lot more action.

I for one am going to forego a clinic or a horse show or a new bridle, etc, etc and send that money to the aid of those animals.

With congress appropriating 10 billion I think the people will get help. I am not sure if any of the 10 billion will go to direct help for animals.

I gave my money to the AMVF.

[Danjurofit]

I would DIE for my animals. I would starve so they could eat and go without medical attention so they could have it. I could never leave them alone to starve or drown.

Why? Because when I purchased them, I made them a promise to always look after them. They did not ask to be domesticated. I did that to them. For that they deserve nothing less than my protection and guardianship.

I could never leave them behind, they have been there for me through some of the most horrific times in my life.

That being said, I am not in the situation. I am sitting behind a computer in Canada at work. I am certain these people did not WANT to have to make this decision and I am sitting here thankful that I have not had to make that decision, and praying that it is one I will never have to face.

[Jesse'sMom]

you know, I am a known Hard ass, & I gotta tell you I was hysterical & crying when I saw the whole dog/bus thing-as were my children, they were flabbergasted at that as well! The dog was treated as if it were a piece of trash...
There is NO WAY i would leave my dogs. Some of my dogs are older than my own children. I couldn't do it. I would send my kids off with my hubby & HOPE & PRAY someone would come who could take me & my dogs. I cant imagine what those poor people are feeling leaving their beloved 4 legged children behind, my God & the poor dogs/cats what are they thinking & feeling?
. I couldn't do it. I am sorry for the hurt & Pain all those owners are feeling. DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO HELP THE DOGS/CATS??

[incentive]

I don't think that any of us are critical of the folks who are at ground zero getting people off of rooftops. What all of those people are going through--whether they were ordered in there to help or people who had no way to get out in time--is not able to be comprehended by those of us sitting here typing in a safe, comfortable place. It is gut-wrenching to watch, but muchless so than to have to endure.

Yes, mandatory should be what it says it is; however, where was the help for those with no means, physical or finacial, to get out?

Three cheers for Anderson Cooper calling that little blonde politician on the carpet for her gratuitous praise! Every time the FEMA director is interviewed I just want to be able to reach through the tv screen and smack him!!

Do any of you know where and how we can go about getting trained to help in such disasters? Many of us would go to help, but the organizations in charge don't want well-meaning but semi-clueless people getting in the way and causing more logistical problems than are already there. All of us commenting on this topic are concerned, caring folks. We're not here whining about gas lack of/cost of gas to get to a show or asking for help in getting lead changes. How can we get "trained" so that in the future we can really help?

And , yes, it is rather stupid to allow that many people to inhabit a city that physically is an accident waiting to happen.

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Well these questions about putting the National Guard on alert should be directed to the GOVERNORS of each state. They can put them on alert at any time or deploy them to certain areas. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As far as the Hospital ships - they take days to move around Poltroon and the reason they stay in harbor is so that they aren't in harms way and can be deployed. If you put them out at sea - they would have to keep moving away from the storm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well sure, but they didn't leave port in VA until YESTERDAY. By contrast, various international agencies had food and water in Banda Aceh in two days.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
But again - the New Orleans area and the Governor of LA exhaled too soon before they took the time to get feedback on not only the storm damage but the storm surge affect on the levies.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely. We in the US have become way too complacent. "We're America. Bad things don't/can't happen here." Well, for the most part they don't but that's not because of some magical godly shield, it's because we're skilled and organized and we do the work to get things done. They don't just do themselves. But no one was prepared to face the heat for overresponding - not local governments and not FEMA.

[nettiemaria]

Okay, I went out for a break at work and thought about this some more. Um, there are people ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES who are offering refuge for these people AND THEIR ANIMALS. There is no reason for the dog to have been left behind. You have the COTH convoy, the HSUS, the ASPCA, PETA, the Louisiana Equine Counsel, etc., etc., etc. The Humane Society of MO is there now, they are bringing animals back, and I have offered foster to them also. But, if the damn dog got baked on the roof, then how can they bring that one back? I have offer to take in three equines and some cats myself here only 9 hours from there. The dog should have been allowed with the people. I am sure that the HSUS is there, and could have taken this dog in. I am wondering, who do I contact. For now, I am contacting FEMA. If anyone has any other suggestions, please advise. Yes, what the people are going through is really one of the most horrible things I have watched and I have sent money to the Red Cross and offered a home for some people - but it is equally as horrible for the animals. They feel the same emotions and pain as we do. By they way, we are also mammals.

[austin]

Sorry I meant the AVMF

The American Veterinary Medical Foundation

[Kat the Horse]

It has frequently been my experience that one NEVER fully knows how one would react in a situation until one is <span class="ev_code_RED">actually faced with that situation. </span> All the TV broadcasts, up to the hour, minute or whatever, could NEVER fully detail what it must be like for any one person who is there NOW, actually living in such conditions. I've been watching the major news channels the past 3 days, and the feeling of sadness and helplessness I feel, for the people AND the animals--it is overwhelming.

I don't really know how I'd react to being trapped in a dying city with my husband, daughter and pets. Three days, no drinking water, no food. Looters and gangs and shots going off, burning buildings and bodies and offal floating past in stinking water. The oppressive heat. People trapped on roofs, along with their children, yelling for help. And YES, the animals. You can't tell me 'they don't know' when they've been left on the roof when rescue arrives, or swept to the side when the bus leaves with their family. Oh, they know. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

If there was any conceiveable way, I'd clean out the bank account (which currently shows $.41!) gas up the Durango (at $3.15@gal) and fill up the back with water and pet food, blankets and OTC meds and <span class="ev_code_RED">GO</span>. Surely every little bit would help?

I am haunted by the picture of the dog left behind while it's little person screams for it, and the pigs scrambling to get on the roof--and the other small unimaginable horrors that were the last minutes for so many small lives. God must personally gather the souls of those abandoned animal-souls to his heart. When I pray for the thousands suffering in NO, I pray hard for the animals too.

But I guess, to put it in perspective, it is always the small and weak who suffer in these calamities. War, and famine, drought and flood. We who see animals as damn-near-equal-to-most-and-better-than-some-humans find it a depressing, heartbreaking truth--it is always those who are 'less' who suffer more. I'm not talking about color or ethnicity (although the argument could fit).

So, come payday, I'm sending my small bit of extra money to the animal rescues, who will be taking on those fur-sons who made it out alive. I think Noah's Ark is one that is already in the area and doing what they can. Here at work we have started a contribution envelope to buy cases of water, and non-perishables that will be sent out by BIG truck tomorrow.
I do what I can, and give the rest to my God.

I don't blame those folks who stayed behind. Who knows but what I would have had no way to leave, like so many of them. 2-3 days warning didn't change that fact for many people. A week--maybe. But if you are on foot and poor, getting yourself--much less a family--even 50 miles to a place where you'd be safe from a killer storm would be HARD if not impossible. I think those who stayed who had the ability to leave did so with evil intent. Everybody else had no choise.

As usual, just my infrequently expressed opinion. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:
As far as the Hospital ships - they take days to move around Poltroon and the reason they stay in harbor is so that they aren't in harms way and can be deployed. If you put them out at sea - they would have to keep moving away from the storm. As the FACTS show - this storm took a very complicated route after it hit the east coast of Fla and even up to the the last few hours - the location where the eye would come on shore in the gulf was not what they expected. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll have to look around a bit to find the right article (I'll add the link when I do), but I know I read something yesterday about how FEMA *used* to do just that as a "just in case" measure. In this case, for instance, a ship might have been sent from Baltimore or Norfolk on Saturday or Sunday -- BEFORE the hurricane hit -- and would hang out down in Florida or somewhere nearby, but out of the path of the storm. It'd wait til it was safe, and then head in as close as it could get.

If that had been done in this case, the ships could have been there Tuesday. Not a week later.

I'll go find the article...

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin:
Most emergency shelters WON'T allow evacuees to bring pets with them. I'm not entirely sure why... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't read all 4 pages so maybe someone answered - they can't because of other evacuees who are severely allergic. Leaving the animals out GETS to me, too and I could not understand it, then an old college friend of mine pointed out that his and his childrens allergies are so severe that he cannot even enter my house because of the cat. I went once with him to the neatest secondhand bookstore. The owner had a Chow that stayed in the store with her, it's a large store with multiple levels. My friend is so allergic that he had to leave the store within minutes. He also freaked out when airlines allowed very small pets to travel in the cabin - he has to leave the plane as his allergies result in severe asthma.

[babs,too]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[Erin]

Grr. Of course, I can't find the darn thing. I thought it was in this article, but it's not... but the article is still good reading anyway:

"Disaster in the Making" in the Independent Weekly (http://www.indyweek.com/durham/2004-09-22/cover.html)

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by incentive:
Do any of you know where and how we can go about getting trained to help in such disasters? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your wish is my command.

http://www.virginiacorps.org/CitizenCorps/cert/certChoose.cfm

I picked the one for VA since that's your state, but other states offer CERT training also. The VA site has a FEMA link on the left-hand side for online training.

Anne

[Anne FS]

Any if anyone gets an update on the little white dog, PLEASE post it. Like all of you I can't get it out of my mind.

[fernie fox]

Here is a lucky little guy.

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Anne FS:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by incentive:
Do any of you know where and how we can go about getting trained to help in such disasters? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your wish is my command.

http://www.virginiacorps.org/CitizenCorps/cert/certChoose.cfm

I picked the one for VA since that's your state, but other states offer CERT training also. The VA site has a FEMA link on the left-hand side for online training.

Anne </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Anne. http://www.training.fema.gov/ for the rest of us...

[Roomfor2]

So if we want to donate towards an animal shelter or ASPCA which one? Where? Does anyone have any contact info?

[Erin]

Just heard on MSNBC that Mayor Daley in Chicago offered to send emergency workers/supplies to a staging area near New Orleans BEFORE the hurricane.

He finally heard back from FEMA, today, who has requested only one tanker truck.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

roomfor2 - HSUS is coordinating help for the beasties
huhs.org

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Just heard on MSNBC that Mayor Daley in Chicago offered to send emergency workers/supplies to a staging area near New Orleans BEFORE the hurricane.

He finally heard back from FEMA, today, who has requested only one tanker truck. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shocking.. think about it.. COTH had posted links to what was about to happen to New Orleans (and the Gulf Coast) on Saturday evening… August 28th. Where the heck was FEMA? Why weren’t water, food and medical supplies stockpiled in the Superdome for all the thousands of people who would be seeking refuge there?
Halliburton is making billions on this war in Iraq, feeding over a million people a day over there (which costs big bucks to American taxpayers). Why can’t Halliburton donate enough food and water for 25,000 American citizens in need here in the USA?

[Joanne]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Here is a lucky little </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure that was the famous Snowball? I thought this was Snowball..

Go to http://www.cbsnews.com and then to latest video

you have to scroll down the video archives to the picture of the man holding up a tiny baby. In that video, they show a bus with closed doors and a little white dog (poodle?) jumping up on the door, and he is then snatched up by a police officer.

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtm...eosection_page.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?channel=/elements/2005/08/29/national/videoarchive799065_1_videosection_page.shtml)

I think Snowball is in the video entitled "Crisis in New Orleans Deepens"

[trailblazer]

Watching that video convinces me even more that I would not have left my dog! I was expecting conditions to be much worse, quite frankly. I hope that dog ends up OK, and I hope its owners can live with themselves for choosing Texas over him... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[monstrpony]

I don't think she meant that the dog in the pic was Snowball, just that it was a dog luckier than Snowball, since it appeared to be included in a transport.

I don't think I can bring myself to look at that video clip.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[nettiemaria]

Well, the Bush Bashing was just shut down. But, that's okay, because we just started on a totally different bash here at work right afterwards. Seems they just showed a vido and HE was in New Orleans, and these ladies went running up to him, and one collapsed in his arms. He said to her, "Isn't there a shelter nearby?" And that's it.

But anyway, back to the dog - Yes, cute little poodle, just trying to get on the bus, just like the humans. It knew it had to go. But, thwarted. So sad.

GOD'S SPEED TO HSUS, ASPCA, LONE STAR WHATEVERITIS, HABITAT FOR HORSES, HUMANE SOCIETY OF MISSOURI, ADFH, and I am sure there are many more, but just to keep it short. It's a shame they haven't been allowed to do more.

[Joanne]

Oh, that was my mistake; I apologize. I misread Fernie Fox's post. May I claim my contact lenses are cloudy today?


In any case, we know the pictured dog is, indeed, very lucky! We don't know what happened to the white dog yet.

[Sannois]

One of our local Radio Stations weather person was down there, for 3 day, they did a report on their way home today, They were in Mississippi and Alabama.. Although we hear most about the people in NO because of them being trapped the conditions in the areas hit on the coast of Alabama were horrid.. Like a bomber had come in and carpet bombed the areas. She said the stench was overwhelming, Huge semis of Chicken and meats that were tossed against buildings and all the meat thawed and rotted. A giant warehouse full of shrimp rotting, And Lots of dead animals everywhere, Dogs cats, wild life birds. and human dead bodies being discovered in the houses that were slammed by the 20 ft wall of water, Dead in their homes, workers going from house to house marking the roofs with big orange circles and signs that they were searched and that there were dead inside. She said it was so sureal. And the heat is stifling! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Praying for them all.

[caryledee]

I'll probably get flamed for this, but it seems like we are becoming a country that doesn't want to take any responsibility for ourselves. Don't get me wrong; I feel horrible for those involved and I know many of them had no where else to go.
But there were warnings several days in advance. Why weren't people in danger better prepared? If they couldn't leave the area, why not put a few necessities (water, food, etc) in a backpack and be prepared? Especially those with small children or with medical needs; a survival kit could have gotten them through the worst of it. Instead, it seems like most people waited for disaster and were totally unprepared when it was as bad as they predicted.
I think its a good lesson for us all; have a game plan in case of disaster. Don't think the government is always going to bail you out.

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nettiemaria:
HE was in New Orleans, and these ladies went running up to him, and one collapsed in his arms. He said to her, "Isn't there a shelter nearby?" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Uh, isn't that the PROBLEM in New Orleans? Unbe-freakin-lievable.

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by caryledee:
Why weren't people in danger better prepared? If they couldn't leave the area, why not put a few necessities (water, food, etc) in a backpack and be prepared? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many of these people are too darn poor to be able to GET out. No car, no money, no family elsewhere. Not everyone able to say I'll go stay with my sister in Ohio. Too poor, to ill to go. Yes, there are those - like Fats Domino, for gosh sake - who should've gone but refused. No sympathy there. But remember, a 'backpack' of supplies for a family won't last days. And when the levees broke the water rise was FAST. Even if you'd been good and stockpiled food, meds, etc. to get you through the recovery, well, you saw the pictures - all of your careful preparations were washed away.

[Jazzy's mom]

I have been to NO and while most of what people see is the garden district or the french quarter, the poverty in other areas is indescribable. I think it is hard for many of us to grasp that what they had was all they had..they had no homeowners insurance, many have no bank accounts. Dirt poor does not even describe their situation. They literally had no way to get out and no where to go. They pretty much had nothing to lose and now they have absolutely nothing. I sorely hope that the government will provide some sort of stipend for them. I don't think we realize that there are areas of that region that resemble thrid world countries...some places didn't have running water, it is not like there will be insurance money for these poor souls who literally only have the clothes on their backs. Many will rebuild, but when you are so poverty stricken that you can barely afford food each day, where do they find the support and funds to begin a new life?

[Erin]

carlydee, I agree with you to a point... obviously, people should do their best to take care of THEMSELVES. But, as one of my favorite songs goes, "the world is full of stupid people." Some of those who are stuck and need to be rescued undoubtedly were stupid. Others were just unable to get out. Does it really matter?

In a compassionate society, the government is supposed to act as the safety net. Maybe this is a lesson that the safety net needs to go into effect earlier and much more emphasis needs to be put on evacuating as many people as possible (including providing transportation for people who would be otherwise unable to leave)... but it's too late for that now.

[ise@ssl]

Well Erin if you take the time to look at the patterns of hurricanes and how large an area they affect - I'm not sure where you would "park" this hospital ship to be ready to go whereever it is needed. It also has to refuel to keep it going even when it's anchored.

We can read one or two (probably biased) articles on this but the military people charged with these huge floating facilities are under pressure to spend money within limits. We don't exactly give our military free rein with spending. Plus it would be insulting to think they are inept at deciding where and how to move these ships.

What still stands is the fact that after 9/11 all communities, cities, states were to have an emergency management plan in place. Saying the Federal Government didn't give us enough money is no excuse. It might have raised taxes to have short wave radios with generators or evacuation vehicles ready to take people out of New Orleans. Cities on the East Coast are now evacuating all inhabitants with hurricanes come - no reason New Orleans couldn't do it. Their Mayor is now blaming all that's wrong on everyone else - he should consider his lack of appropriate decisions. Hurricanes in the Gulf are a regular event - allowing so many people to build and live in housing below sea level is not only bad planning it's a disaster in the making.

And by the way for all of you who keep speaking about GOVERNMENT IN THE THIRD PERSON - how many of you even volunteer to serve on local governments in your community? How many of you regularly attend meetings of your local governments? county boards? etc. Decisions on what resources are available are often made locally through communities having plans, budgeting or requesting funding.

You can go on line to the Red Cross, Salvation Army or HUNDREDS of other charities and find out how to be a volunteer or be trained for disaster assistance. If you don't know who provides your fire or emergency services to YOU where you live - SHOULDN'T YOU?? Do you donate to their fund raising efforts?? Not $5 - what about the same amount of money you would spend on a new pair of boots or the yearly food for these dogs that can't be left behind. If there's no one there to help you - don't blame the GOVERNMENT. WE are the government and if you don't participate that's part of the big picture.

Do you KNOW elderly people where you live who might need assistance if the power goes off in extreme heat? If you had to evacuate your home are there neighbors without cars that you could help?? If you don't - why NOT?

Don't say you are too busy. Maybe the people charged with making decisions about YOUR future safety in a disaster are too busy to care about you!!

We always have people posting these articles from the past on what should have been done - DID YOU READ THEM THEN?? DID YOU CARE? Why now? Your money goes to these programs - do you write, email, fax or even know the names of your elected officials at all levels??

Sorry for the rant but if you aren't part of the solution - YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

[trailblazer]

Considering that New Orleans is BELOW sea level, wasn't this just a matter of time?? I hope some good will come out of this in that people will think twice about where they build cities. The French obviously did not have enough knowledge back then to realize that New Orleans' location might not have been ideal. But our civil engineers now should know better. This shouldn't have been such a shock!

[Erin]

Ilona, Annapolis was underwater when Isabel hit here in 2003. I took these pictures (http://homepage.mac.com/eharty/photos/PhotoAlbum5.html) myself, and I WALKED down there from my apartment. It's a mile away. I'm well aware of how hurricanes work. You can't live anywhere on the east coast very long without knowing they can affect a large area.

Even if the hospital ship had stayed safely in Norfolk (or it might have been Baltimore) until Monday or Tuesday instead of freakin' THURSDAY, it would have been a vast improvement.

Of course they know how and where to move these ships. And of course it costs money. And of course it's a great way to cut costs to spend less on "just in case" type things and hope that disaster doesn't strike.

But then something like this happens, and it looks pretty stupid for the government types to say that it would be too expensive to prepare for the worst-case scenario instead of hoping for the best. And numerous, numerous articles (including in the Washington Post) have discussed how FEMA has been gutted. It's not just one or two "biased" articles.

[ise@ssl]

Parts of New Orleans are sinking and have been for a long time but apparantely continuing to build was something they felt was appropriate.

And I cannot believe someone actually felt the people who owned "Snowball" the dog chose Texas over their dog. They chose LIFE over DEATH as far as the facts show. What an absolutely ignorant comment. Their child will live - maybe without this dog - but he will live.

[Albion]

One of the hardest hit areas is the 9th Ward, which is a very, very poor area (actually, I think Fats Domino lived there - in a house surrounded by barbed wire). People were apparently trying to climb the high barbed wire fences surrounding Jackson Barracks to get in, because they have some big two story buildings, unlike the 9th Ward, which is a lot of shotgun row houses of varying sizes, mostly. There were a LOT of people who just plain couldn't get out. Gee, maybe they should've walked 60 miles to safety? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Yes, I'm sure there were a lot of people who stayed for bad reasons, but a LOT of those people were stuck there because they had no way to get out, no where to go if they DID get out, and no money to hole up in a motel for a few months.

As for "allowing" people to live in NO, it's not like it sprung up in the past few decades. We're talking a few hundred years of history - what? Were they supposed to do what they do in China in big tourists areas & kick all the inhabitants out to make it tourist area Deluxe? I agree that people living in low-lying coastal areas (or, say, the Mississippi flood plain - or near a fault line in CA) are taking a risk, but a lot of people who live in New Orleans are native New Orleanians & their families have been living there for decades. Maybe we should force people to live in the Plains states - oh wait, tornados hit there. Maybe parts of CA? Well, we're just waiting for the catastrophic earthquake. Short of living on the freaking MOON, natural disasters are a part of life. What exactly would YOU suggest people go, ise? Especially those that are too poor to afford nice housing in the 'burbs?

[coco]

Surely to God somebody can find Snowball and reunite him with his owner. That child is going to be scarred for life.

I'm sorry, but there's no way that little dog was going to take room that another human would have used. He would have sat on the child's lap...space that instead was left unspeakably empty for that long drive to Texas.

What would be the harm in being more compassionate to a hysterical child?

When all of the rules of civilization were busted around them, what loser decided that THIS was the one rule that was going to be followed?

Someone without a soul. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Albion]

So, coco, who decides what size dog isn't going to be taking up room? What about the child who shows up with their beloved lab? Would it be any less sad because the family had a medium sized dog?

[ise@ssl]

I don't consider the Washington Post to be unbiased.

And I've lived most of my life on the east Coast and unfortunately suffered through one of the worst hurricanes to hit Hawaii on a vacation there. When someone tells me to leave - I'M GONE.

As it seemed in NO - the hospitals were on generators and had plans to be able to handle their patients but clearly officials in NO and LA didn't keep their proverbial eyes on the levees and by the time they failed they were all running around like chickens - screaming the sky is falling. CLEARLY from what you hear from the hospitals - their communication link to the city officials or state officials was NON-EXISTENT and in many cases continues to be. That isn't a FEDERAL ISSUE. I'm sure if it did exist the flow of information through to the Federal government would have had those ships moving faster. Sorry to be redundent but the Governor of Louisiana is MESS. She was filled with panic, fear and hadn't a clue what to do. She communicated fear and dispair everytime she was on TV or the radio. She's the point person for DEMANDING federal assistance. She couldn't even keep control of herself or her fears or panic - and SHE let the people of her state down. She was reacting to what was happening and NEVER SEEMED TO BE FOCUSED ON ANTICIPATING WHAT HAD TO BE DONE NEXT. She's still one big mess and now blames everyone else - right up to the President. She took the oath to protect and defend the laws and the people of her state - not poop in pants when a horrendous natural tragedy happens. What's that saying, LEAD, FOLLOW OR GET OUT OF THE WAY. She looked like a person that wanted to run and she should have and put someone CAPABLE, RESPONSIBLE, AND KNOWLEDGEABLE IN CONTROL.

[Erin]

BTW, one of the programs at FEMA that was eliminated by the Bush administration was the one that tried to get people to relocate and rebuild in NON-FLOOD-PRONE areas, rather than continuing to live in an area that's basically just a disaster waiting to happen.

From the article I linked to earlier... http://www.indyweek.com/durham/2004-09-22/cover.html

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The need for more systematic mitigation efforts was driven home by 1996's Hurricane Fran, which killed 37 people and caused tens of billions of dollars in damages. In 1997, Witt established Project Impact, which would become the agency's most high-profile mitigation program.

Under the project, FEMA fostered partnerships between federal, state and local emergency workers, along with local businesses, to prepare individual communities for natural disasters. Impact partnerships sprang up in all 50 states. In Seattle, Wash., for example, the grants were used to retrofit schools, bridges and houses at risk from earthquakes. In Pascagoula, Miss., the project funded the creation of a database of structures in the local flood plain--crucial information for preparing mitigation plans. In several eastern North Carolina communities, it helped fund and coordinate buyouts of houses in flood-prone areas.

...

In February 2001, for example, the Bush administration proposed eliminating Project Impact, a move approved by Congress later in the year. (On the very day the White House proposal was submitted, a magnitude 6.8 earthquake rocked Washington state, which was home to several communities where Project Impact had sponsored quake mitigation efforts.) Ending the project and trimming other FEMA programs, the White House argued, would save roughly $200 million. In its place, FEMA instituted a new program of mitigation grants that are awarded on a competitive basis. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And, the article notes elsewhere, New Orleans applied for one of those mitigation grants and didn't get it.

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by trailblazer:
Considering that New Orleans is BELOW sea level, wasn't this just a matter of time?? I hope some good will come out of this in that people will think twice about where they build cities. The French obviously did not have enough knowledge back then to realize that New Orleans' location might not have been ideal. But our civil engineers now should know better. This shouldn't have been such a shock! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

New Orleans wasn't below sea level when it was built. It is sinking due to the weight of the city, the extraction of oil and gas from underneath, and due to the levee building which deprives it of fresh silt from the Mississipi.

In addition, the first buildings weren't built in the low spots. They were built on the ridges and the higher areas. The lower areas were filled in over time. Zoning could've prohibited that.

Finally, the wetlands and marshes are receding. Part of the reason this hurricane was able to take out areas that Camille did not was that Camille had to traverse a lot more land to get to New Orleans. The marshes absorb storm surge and deprive the hurricane of energy.

[grayarabs]

Does anyone know if animal rescue organizations are in the disaster areas looking for animals to rescue? ie combing the streets/neighborhoods for animals in trouble/left behind? I cannot stop thinking about the poodle and the bus nor the CBS report moving the white dog out of the bus's way.
Surely someone picked up those dogs? News-crews?
How could they leave them??? I want to donate money to several organizations - but really want to know who is on site (if possible) looking for helpless animals. I cannot physically help - and/but I have three dog crates in my garage I wish I could get to whomever needs them.
uire


comginb

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Parts of New Orleans are sinking and have been for a long time but apparantely continuing to build was something they felt was appropriate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
yeah and look what happened... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And I cannot believe someone actually felt the people who owned "Snowball" the dog chose Texas over their dog. They chose LIFE over DEATH as far as the facts show. What an absolutely ignorant comment. Their child will live - maybe without this dog - but he will live. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How are my opinions any more ignorant than yours? I know you're upset, but is name-calling going to help anyone? The FACT is that a family decided that they would rather leave without their dog than stay in a devastated area with their dog. I do not begrudge them their choice. I just hope they are able to recover from it, as I know I would not be able to if the same thing happened to me. Sure, the child will live without his dog, but is it a life worth living? To be disrespectful towards those who disagree with you is incredibly ignorant IMO. We can only choose between bad and worse, and it seems that you and I might disagree as to which is which.

[coco]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Albion:
So, coco, who decides what size dog isn't going to be taking up room? What about the child who shows up with their beloved lab? Would it be any less sad because the family had a medium sized dog? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who among us hasn't been the receipient of an act of kindness -- a breaking of a rule just for us -- at one time in our lives that brought us to our knees in thanks?

This kid needed his time to be on that day, at that moment...

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Albion:
So, coco, who decides what size dog isn't going to be taking up room? What about the child who shows up with their beloved lab? Would it be any less sad because the family had a medium sized dog? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
When they were evactuating the Titanic, weren't women and children the first to be let onto the lifeboats? To many of us, dogs are our children.

[ise@ssl]

Well we could pour through the grants Erin and as I always say, everything is RELATIVE - nothing is ABSOLUTE. And I'm sure there are pork programs in every state that could have been eliminated to fund relocating people from areas they shouldn't live in. But if we did that most of CALIFORNIA would be vacant, all the coastal areas of the east and south, and on and on.

West Virginia is on the top of the list for PORK PROGRAMS - no storm surge issues there! And JUST FOR THE RECORD - the CONGRESS controls the purse strings - NOT THE PRESIDENT. He proposes budgets - they PASS THEM. Let's try to understand how the government works and who does what. You all have Senators and Congressmen/women. What are they doing for you. And conversely if it meant sending billions to these areas to buy out people (many of whom BTW don't want to leave) - and it mean much higher taxes for you or loss of revenue to your state - are you O&gt;K&gt; with that?

[ise@ssl]

Trailblazer - I cannot believe you would wonder if saving your child without their dog would be a life worth living? Good grief http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Trailblazer - I cannot believe you would wonder if saving your child without their dog would be a life worth living? Good grief http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was thinking the same thing about you! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Erin]

Erm, Ilona, in one breath you're lambasting NO for "continuing to build" and in the next you're dismissing the programs intended to move people out of flood-prone areas? That doesn't make sense. Looking at the pictures, it seems to me that the vast majority of the housing that is flooded isn't stuff that was built in the last 10 or 20 years.

I'm well aware of how budgets are passed, and of the existence of pork programs. But the local press, the New Orleans Times Picayune, has been railing for several years about the lack of funding for improving the levees. Anyone who was watching the news over the weekend knew that the experts were worried about the levees being breached. A major hurricane hitting New Orleans was cited in 2000 as one of the "big three" catastrophes that could strike the U.S. ... after a terrorist attack on NY and a major earthquake along the San Andreas fault in CA. How can you not believe the federal government shouldn't have helped fund the improvement of the levees? It would have cost a hell of a lot less than what we're paying for now.

[race_run_jump]

Did anyone see the bit on A Current Affair where the news crew picked up an older lady and her teeney little white dot and flew them both to safety in their news helicopter? I was crying my head off - she was clutching that little scrap of a dog so tightly in the helicopter. The news crew looked a bit teary eyed, too.
I would personally have a very hard time leaving the animals - such a hard thing. Might have to send hubby with child and do something with the dogs - walk, maybe? And they would doubtless be ungrateful!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[race_run_jump]

Um - sorry - that was a white DOG, not a white dot. Although it looked like a dot in some of the pics.

[Tucked_Away]

This community here:

http://www.livejournal.com/community/nolapetinfo/

Is gathering whatever information they can find on animals affected by the hurricane in New Orleans. I don't know if anyone is doing something similar for Biloxi or any of the other places hit.

But if you're looking to help, there's a whole bunch of ideas where to start...

[Jaegermonster]

I'm with you all that say that I would not be able to sleep at night were I to be flown off to safety while my dog watched me from the rooftop. My dog who would then be doomed to die of dehydration or starvation or be killed by larger dogs or whatever. But I'm also with all of you who say that you need to have a plan and be prepared so that you do not end up in that situation in the first place. This end my public service announcement from the heart.
Now comes the one from the police officer (yes I worked in Miami for Andrew):
I seriously doubt that animal rights people are scouring the streets of Lousiana to get these animals at this point. The people have gone crazy and are shooting at military helicopters and sniping hospitals. THey are raping people in bus lines for gods sakes. I remember after Andrew thugs were robbing power crews while they were up the buckets restoring power. They pointed guns at them and ordered them to throw down their watches and wallets. Every power crew had it's own officer assigned to it so they could work.
I seriously doubt that until the situation becomes less volatile out there that unarmed civilian aid groups will be roaming the streets en masse. People just need to learn how to behave instead of following mob rule and adopting lawlessness.
I also heard today at work that the order is about to be issued to shoot any domesticated animal that appears diseased, out of control or otherwise a threat. I suppose this is preferable to allowing them to slowly starve to death or be killed by other animals, or die of disease. This upsets me, as it does many of you, but having been in a martial law situation before, I understand the reason for it. If you all are upset about rats eating dead bodies (which are piled up or floating all over the place by the way) what do you think will happen once the abandoned starving terrified domestic pets revert to pack animals? They will also begin eating the dead bodies. When they run out of dead bodies they will begin attacking people, children and smaller ones first. Then you have to consider the diseases that have already begun to rear their ugly heads there, and some will also affect the animals. I have seen it happen where people die in their homes, and when they are not found for a couple of days, their dogs and cats begin to eat them. So, yes, they will do it.
Here is another question: what happened to the federal grant that Louisiana got after 9/11 to fix their levee situation so that it would not be vulnerable to terrorist attack and to prevent this type of situation? There is a federal investigation into what they did with the money from that.
Sometimes no matter how unpleasant or distasteful it is, we as officers have to do what we have to do for the greater good of humanity.
Please don't flame the officers and other emergency personnel. You can't begin to imagine what they are seeing and dealing with out there. I can. Think about the stench of the dead sea life that came in with the storm surge, plus the molding furniture etc, the garbage strewn everywhere, all the rotting food, the human excrement and sewage from the broken lines and out in the open since the hurricane, and from the thousands of dead bodies strewn hither and yon. And who do you think has to deal with being the one to hear the children crying and pull out the dead bodies?
I have had to do many things in my career that I did not like or did not want to do, but I understood why it had to be done. Sometimes I cried myself to sleep that night and some of those things haunt me to this day. But police and emergency personnel have to get that city under control, and have to protect human life. There are not enough of them, and they have families too.

[Albion]

trailblazer, that's great. My dogs (even my fosters) are members of my family, too. However, just because WE think our dogs are members of the family doesn't mean that FEMA or anyone else has to think that. And I'm sure they don't. Because lots of petless HUMANS are dying or are dead and there are, frankly, bigger fish to fry.

So this was a little dog. Would YOU want to be the one telling Johnny that his lab couldn't get on the bus, but Susie's miniature poodle could?

Is the miniature poodle any more a member of the family than a bigger dog? I don't think so! Try telling that to MY medium-to-large size dogs who are complete members of the family. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

There are a LOT OF PEOPLE who lost their pets. I'm sure all of them are greiving - I read the saddest letter a woman wrote to her Boxer who was being boarded while the family was on an unrelated trip (no, they didn't just leave the dog behind) on the NOLA craig's list. At least little Snowball has more than a "snowball's" chance in hell of getting home safely to his family.

[Erin]

Oh, it turns out the hospital ship is leaving Baltimore tonight. It will arrive on Thursday. Next week. I hope there are still some people alive in New Orleans to receive help when it arrives. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm well aware of how budgets are passed, and of the existence of pork programs. But the local press, the New Orleans Times Picayune, has been railing for several years about the lack of funding for improving the levees. Anyone who was watching the news over the weekend knew that the experts were worried about the levees being breached. A major hurricane hitting New Orleans was cited in 2000 as one of the "big three" catastrophes that could strike the U.S. ... after a terrorist attack on NY and a major earthquake along the San Andreas fault in CA. How can you not believe the federal government shouldn't have helped fund the improvement of the levees? It would have cost a hell of a lot less than what we're paying for now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree 100%. What is going on in the Gulf Coast (i.e. the aftermath of Katrina), most especially in New Orleans, was absolutely foreseen. It is unconscionable that it has taken this long to mobilize help to these people.

[Ghazzu]

I was underwhelemed, to say the least, by Thursday's NPR interview with the Secretary of Homeland Security--the interviewer asked him why the roughly 2000 people in the Convention Center--7 blocks from the Superdome--had been without food or water since they were first directed there.
SHS replied that these were just *rumors* that there were people in the CC.
NPR said, no, we had reporters there.
SHS--well, things are confusing, they must not understand the situation
NPR--no, these guys are reliable--they've reported from disaster sites before, heck, they've reported from war zones...
SHS--well, if they're not getting supplies, it's only because vehicles can't get there.
NPR--reporters say there have been vehicles driving right past the CC.
SHS--well, we'll have to look into this and see ifthere really are people there and what the situation is.

Later in the program, it was reported that an assistant to the SHS had called and told NPR that they had confirmed that there were indeed a lot of people at the CC, and they would be delivering supplies.

Nice--the Cabinet level member of the administration in charge of *HOMELAND SECURITY* has to get told by a news anchor that there are 2000 people going without help several *days* into this unholy mess?

What a cluster-#$%.

[poltroon]

Ghazzu, I think that was actually the FEMA director, Mike Brown - Mr. I-resigned-from-the-IAHA-in-disgrace.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/5566064631/m/309205337

[trailblazer]

Albion, calm down! I specifically said that we should NOT be blaming the relief workers, as they have more than enough on their plates just trying to take care of the humans! I don't think you realize the enormity of what happened. $100 billion in damages, and that doesn't even address the emotional aspects and loss of life involved. If we had been in that situation, each of us would have to make a split-second decision as to who and what to save. Would you be able to live with yourself if you left your 3 year old daughter behind in your house? What about if there wasn't room for you infant child on the bus to Texas? Would you leave without her? There are no right or wrong answers here. But we have to be prepared to live (or die) by our choices. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[ise@ssl]

Well you know we could go tit for tat. I went back and confirmed that on SUNDAY NIGHT when the Mayor of NO and the Governor of LA were wrapping their arms around each other that the GOV stated "I just spoke with President Bush and he strongly urged a mandatory evacuation of all low lying areas". THERE IT WAS - and THESE TWO PEOPLE could have and should have done it. And they didn't. Now the Mayor is on every radio TV program with about 80% of what he's saying being bleeped out blaming EVERYONE for the deaths and devistation. This dynamic duo were the ones that set up the plan to have people go to the Super Dome and NOT LEAVE THE CITY.

And Erin - I'm not against moving people out of areas - I worked hard and wrote and lobbied to stop a stupid billion dollar tunnel here in NJ that would have protected shanty houses in Boonton that were under water everytime it rained. After our fearless leaders pissed away about 500 million making the Army Corps of Engineers study it to death. DUH - they finally realized that they could have bought all the houses and land for less. They finally opted to do that. Some people still won't leave.

There are ticking time bombs due to development CAUSED BY PEOPLE all over this country. So when you head to Las Vegas and just LUUUUUUUUUUV those fancy hotels with the big fountains - remember - sooner ...not later that entire state is going to sink or run dry. All for vacationers losing money gambling!!

People demand big houses (that they usually can't afford) and developers build cheesy poorly built houses anywhere they can. They are mostly chipboard, tyvec and vinyl and wouldn't stand up to a bad storm better yet a hurricane - but hey! That's the supply satisfying the demand.

And Erin you can milk this hospital ship issue dry. Every single National Guard unit is set up to assist people and they are there with food packs and water and medical assistance. If the hospitals weren't fending of looters and scum they could focus on people who need medical care. I have no use for people that are stupid enough to steal electronics equipment when they are waist deep in water, with no place to go and no electricity. Maybe they think they can steal an extension cord that's 100 miles long !! The looters should all be shot in the kneecaps. Immobilize em and leave em.

And Ghazzu - exactly how much detail do you feel every top person has to have and know. Where do you work - does every top executive have every single solitary detail memorized? This is ridiculous. The number of people at the Convention Center increased because the Super Dome was full - THERE WAS NO LEADERSHIP IN THE CITY TO CONTROL AND ASSIST WHERE PEOPLE WERE GOING. THE CITY HAD NO WALKIE TALKIES TO COMMUNICATE - NOT THE POLICE OR THE GOVERNMENT. And this was a city that was supposedly so aware of the impending problems with levees and hurricanes. For God's sake all the Federal Aide they've received they could have gone to Walmart and bought some years ago.

And perhaps the reality is that the layed back party attitude that IS New Orleans permeated their thinking just too much. When you spend any time there - you realize their economy is based on people partying and outside of that is the oil industry (which we create the demand side BTW). Their problems with the levees and the hurricanes were known to them but unlike other states that TELL THE PEOPLE TO GET OUT - NO EXCEPTIONS - they seemed to feel this was no big deal. And unfortunately some even stated after the hurricane eye went east and before the levees failed - they were just fine.

I pray for the people and their families and that they can find an inner strength to get through this.

There isn't a news website that doesn't have links to how you can help - people or animals - they've been all over the world wide web all week. Even on this BB. Help someone - anyone in anyway you can.

[CuriosoJorge]

And... and...and...and....

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Well you know we could go tit for tat. I went back and confirmed that on SUNDAY NIGHT when the Mayor of NO and the Governor of LA were wrapping their arms around each other that the GOV stated "I just spoke with President Bush and he strongly urged a mandatory evacuation of all low lying areas". THERE IT WAS - and THESE TWO PEOPLE could have and should have done it. And they didn't. Now the Mayor is on every radio TV program with about 80% of what he's saying being bleeped out blaming EVERYONE for the deaths and devistation. This dynamic duo were the ones that set up the plan to have people go to the Super Dome and NOT LEAVE THE CITY. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ilona, for God's sake, the Superdome was for the people WHO COULD NOT leave the city! There was no gas. There was traffic for miles. Many of them didn't have cars. The possibility of this kind of thing happening in NO has been on everyone's radar screen for years, and all the hypotheticals included the fact that there would be about 100,000 people who would not or could not evacuate. The elderly, the sick, the poor, infants... and yeah, a few stupid people who don't take hurricanes seriously.

There WAS a "mandatory" evacuation in place. But as I understand it, the government has no authority to force people to leave. (So I am not sure why it's even termed a "mandatory" evacuation, but that's beside the point...)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
People demand big houses (that they usually can't afford) and developers build cheesy poorly built houses anywhere they can. They are mostly chipboard, tyvec and vinyl and wouldn't stand up to a bad storm better yet a hurricane - but hey! That's the supply satisfying the demand. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not quite sure what your point is... uh, yeah, crappy housing developments suck. So do gaudy mansions built on eroding cliffs along the Pacific coast. What does that have to do with anything? I'm guessing most of those homes currently underwater in New Orleans have been there a pretty long time. Short of relocating all those people, the obvious solution would be to try to PREVENT flooding from occurring, and the logical way to do that would be to reinforce the levees...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And Erin you can milk this hospital ship issue dry. Every single National Guard unit is set up to assist people and they are there with food packs and water and medical assistance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry if you find my example tiresome. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif But it's quite obvious that the National Guards most certainly IS NOT set up in New Orleans to assist people and provide food, water, or medical care. And as a taxpayer, I find it patently ridiculous that it's taking the government so long to mobilize. People are dying for LACK OF WATER in a major American city. I find that hugely offensive.

And yes, it appears that local and state governments were overwhelmed. So were NY and NJ after 9/11. That's WHY the federal government is supposed to be ready to help.

[Albion]

trailblazer, I was merely pointing out that while leaving my (our) dogs behind may feel to us like leaving a kid, a LOT of people don't think that way. And in a disaster of this magnitude, well ... I can't blame them.

I am devestated by this event - my step-father is a native New Orleanian of 70+ years and I heard his voice break on the phone this afternoon talking about all his friends who no one has seen, heard from, etc. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

BTW, Ilona, a lot of the shots you see of NG caravans arriving with food and supplies - whoops, those are for the NATIONAL GUARD troops, not for anyone else. My mother is a chief historian for the NGB & works in the Public Affairs section - they've been up to their necks in the stuff since the storm hit (obviously). And a lot of those "cheesy houses" - you know, like the ones in the 9th Ward, St. Bernard Parish, one of the hardest hit areas in NO - have been there since the '20s and '30s and earlier. My step-father grew up in that area, and he's turning 81 in December. It's one of the reasons that the NO ghetto looks bad, but not as bad as housing projects - they're living in OLD houses.

So, Ilona, what should all of those horrendously poor people done? WALK to safety? You seem to have all the answers, so please, share your wisdom.

[Jaegermonster]

They can mobilize all the supplies, hospital ships and whatever they want. If the search and rescue teams can't get in to evacuate the wounded or deliver the supplies because they are under siege from the ghetto thugs and being shot at, nobody's gonna get to the hospital ship or get the supplies. So there you have it.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by poltroon:
Ghazzu, I think that was actually the FEMA director, Mike Brown - Mr. I-resigned-from-the-IAHA-in-disgrace.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/5566064631/m/309205337 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


No; this was Michael Chertoff.
He was absolutely clueless.

[Elaine Jadrich]

My heart is broken for the people and thier poor animals...for all of it. I used to live just outside of New Orleans, across Lake Ponchartrain on the North Shore in Covington, LA.

This is just sickening. And now all the poor animal stories I'm hearing! Anyways, just now on the news, they showed a lady w/ a little Chihuaha, who she said she SNUCK with her in a bag.

Here is a LINK to some of the MSN Katrina Animal stories. Shows some pics and video. Even a guy riding his HORSE bareback, chest-deep, down a New Orleans street.....

I'm donating to Red Cross and Noah's Wish.

[Elaine Jadrich]

OOPS LINK DIDN'T SHOW UP... here it is

Katrina Animal MSN Article -pics/video (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9149797/)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elaine Jadrich:
My heart is broken for the people and thier poor animals...for all of it. I used to live just outside of New Orleans, across Lake Ponchartrain on the North Shore in Covington, LA.

This is just sickening. And now all the poor animal stories I'm hearing! Anyways, just now on the news, they showed a lady w/ a little Chihuaha, who she said she SNUCK with her in a bag.

Here is a LINK to some of the MSN Katrina Animal stories. Shows some pics and video. Even a guy riding his HORSE bareback, chest-deep, down a New Orleans street.....

I'm donating to Red Cross and Noah's Wish. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:


And Ghazzu - exactly how much detail do you feel every top person has to have and know. Where do you work - does every top executive have every single solitary detail memorized? This is ridiculous. The number of people at the Convention Center increased because the Super Dome was full - THERE WAS NO LEADERSHIP IN THE CITY TO CONTROL AND ASSIST WHERE PEOPLE WERE GOING. THE CITY HAD NO WALKIE TALKIES TO COMMUNICATE - NOT THE POLICE OR THE GOVERNMENT. And this was a city that was supposedly so aware of the impending problems with levees and hurricanes. For God's sake all the Federal Aide they've received they could have gone to Walmart and bought some years ago.

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry. Don't wash.
This man is the man whose department is in charge of FEMA.
The same department which shifted money from preparations for dealing with natural disasters to nebulous terrorism defense.

And he doesn't know which end is up.
People at the top shouldn't be people at the top if they can't take responsibility.

We're not talking a few guys on a rooftop, here.

[incentive]

Jaegermonster, Thank you for the reality check from someone who has been there/done that. I can't imagine what dire situations you and other police, fire, and emergency folks are dealing and have dealt with. You and your bretheren are very special people and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Anne FS and Tucked-Away, thank you for the websites. The info is greatly appreciated.

Our local news reported this evening that the medical group from the Portsmouth Naval Hospital has been packed and ready to go for more than a day. Seems there was a "logistical" problem with getting them to the ship they are to be on. Finally, someone figured out to put them on a bus to Pensacola so they can be taken out to the ship. Does the left hand know what the right hand is doing????

It could be just a coinsedence(where is spell check when you need it!), but it seemed quite amazing that the first video of National Guard trucks and troops arriving at the NO convention center with food and water coincided with the President's visit to NO after how many days!?!?!?

[ProzacPuppy]

While I feel for all those in N'awlins, I cannot forget that they had days to figure out a way to get out of town but many made the choice to stay and ride it out rather than be hugely inconvenienced but safe. They played the odds and lost.

The able bodied young men and women who were responsible for children,pets, elderly or infirm should have done whatever they could to get their charges out of harms way. I lived in a city without a car or money once. And I did a $*#&!load of walking (including to the emergency room once).

Sometimes you have to step up and take responsibility for your life. The government doesn't owe you everything.

Let the flames begin.

[Erin]

ProzacPuppy, while I agree that there are plenty of people who just made bad decisions, honestly, I don't see what difference it makes. Are we so callous that we're just going to say, "Well, they got what was coming to them?"

Human are far, far from perfect beings. Hell, I do some web design, and I always tell my clients that the most important component of web design is accomodating stupid people. Even with regard to the BB, which is full of mostly well-off and educated horse people, I am constantly banging my head on my desk at the fact that people can't follow simple directions. Every week, I get people submitting classified ads without paying for them, even though it says at the top of the classified forums that THESE ADS ARE NOT FREE. There's a thread pinned at the top of the Help forum saying READ THE FAQ FIRST... but take a look through some of those threads and see how often the question asked is answered in the FAQ.

Part of disaster preparedness is planning for the worst, not for the best. The worst includes looters and the criminal element who will take advantage of the situation, and yes, planning for the stupid people who are going to be mixed in with the just plain unfortunate. Hell, there were TOURISTS who were stuck there. Their flights were cancelled and they just couldn't get out.

I think we'd be a lot better served not blaming the people who stayed, for whatever reason.

[The Fjord Jockey]

Well we could all go on about this for days, weeks, years....but I am going to make one simple observation:

I've worked with TONS of meteorologists, studied meteorology, and it has been well known for YEARS that a hurricane hitting New Orleans would be a MAJOR disaster, as well as ENTIRELY all too possible. The LOCAL government was well aware of this, and, plain and simple, the levees should have always been TOP priority.

And may I also say: I listened to an interview (NOTE: the WHOLE interview, not just a select bit) with the mayor of New Orleans, and I'm sorry, but that has GOT to be the STUPIDEST son of a gun, YEESH. I thought they were just talking to some random caller, lol.

[ProzacPuppy]

Unfortunately, while N'awlins is an amazing city (great artists, musicians, chefs, besides business people etc.), Mississippi is not a state known for a strong educational system nor intelligent (or honest) politicians.

Hell, the city police are even quitting and getting out of town.

If you've got children, ultimately it is YOUR responsibility to make sure they have a chance at survival.

That said, I have donated and I'm signed up to answer phones this weekend. Houston and Texas are doing everything humanly possible for the refugees. I feel terribly sorry for most of them.

[jetsmom]

Ghazzu- I saw that interview with Chertoff. He is truly inept.
He also ended up quoting some obscure rule that "we are not allowed to use or military for policing activities" in response to a reporter asking why we can't get a grip on security issues in NO. I guess he never heard about our activities in Honduras, Haiti, Nicaraugua, Bosnia, Somalia, Afganistan and others that I am forgetting? That's ALL the active duty military was being used for for years until the gulf war...policing activities.
And that Asst Gov Mary ladrieu or whatever her name is is a butt kissing moron. She was on tv yesterday praising the success of the Gov and FEMA head, and Chertoff, saying what a WONDERFUL job they were doing, while the split screen on the tv showed those people starving/dying at the convention center. THe reporter finally called her on the inaccuracies of her saying that they were doing well!

[GracieB]

I found this info at the end of a fox news story--


Pets were forbidden on the buses. On Thursday, when an officer confiscated a dog, a little boy cried out "Snowball! Snowball!" until he vomited.

National Guard officers said dogs were being taken to a stairwell in the New Orleans Center, a shopping mall near the Superdome, and given food and water. They feared some of them might have escaped, and two small dogs were seen wandering nearby streets.


I don't know if that is really what is going on but we can pray that maybe the pets are being taken care of.

[Albion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> He also ended up quoting some obscure rule that "we are not allowed to use or military for policing activities </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not an F'ING OBSCURE RULE. It's called "the military is NOT ALLOWED TO ARREST (and try, and imprision, and execute) PEOPLE *unless* MARTIAL LAW IS DECLARED." Even if they sent the 82nd Airborne in right now, they would NOT be able to arrest and so forth UNLESS martial law is declared. Which just means that civilian law courts are suspended & the military takes that over.

[Jumphigh83]

After all their loss to have to give up a beloved pet is a preventable tragedy. It is disgusting to make a child that upset for want of taking his dog..I for one wouldnt want to go if my animals couldnt come with me. maybe that is not PC or even smart but then I will be dumb...gratefully.

[Albion]

Yes, Jumphigh, it IS a PC thing to say as a white middle class person living in New York.

Who knows what your thoughts would be as a poor black person in NO who had been living in sewage and human feces for a few days. With no food or water.

As for "want of bringing a pet" - what would YOU say to little Johnny who couldn't bring his beloved lab who was too big, but Susie with her miniature poodle could go with no problem?

So many people on this board are so damn smug, it's postively infuraiting. You're not a poor, indigent person who COULDN'T leave because you had NO WAY to get out. Get over yourselves.

[trailblazer]

WOW, that's racist! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Are you saying that blacks love their animals less??? Or that they're too stupid to care? How did this even become a discussion about race? You really shouldn't have so much contempt for your fellow human beings. Blacks are people, too! Or at least that's what I thought. Maybe you should get over YOURSELF? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[The Fjord Jockey]

I don't think she quite meant it like that, HOWEVER:

The people bringing race into this seem to be the blacks themselves...quote from one black woman: "Look at them peoples out there. Some of them people you seein' is the children of slaves!"....umm, and this is relevant how? By the way, not trying to make the woman sound stupid...that's exactly what she said.

And good ol' Rev. Jesse Jackson!! "We've become tolerant to black pain..." and then he proceeds to blabber on about slavery and such.

I highly doubt Katrina was putzing through the Gulf and thought to herself, "Hey! Impoverished blacks! I'll demolish THAT town!"

Then they sit and complain about how things aren't getting done fast enough and hey, let's blame it ALL on Bush! Well I know many of those people suffering are GOOD people, and don't deserve this by any means; but you CAN'T ignore the people out there who are making it worse.

They just want to sit and complain about how people aren't helping them fast enough, how they deserve better, blah blah blah. They complain the buses aren't moving fast enough...flip side of story? They act like freaking maniacs when one DOES come around. If those people could just stop thinking about themselves for five seconds and start helping out those who are truly suffering right next to them, this would be so much easier.

The mayor actually had the nerve to makes excuses for the looters, saying they are stealing because they are desperate and need food.

Yep, I know when I'm hungry, I like to cook myself up a big ol' thing of Panasonic tv's.

In a nutshell: There are many good souls suffering out there, and it's a shame people have to turn this into an issue of race. Race is not what's important right now. Quit bitching that you are being discriminated against and get off your ass and DO SOMETHING. There are plenty of able bodied people you see on tv just sitting in their lawn chairs and waiting for the bus to come. I think those chairs and blankets could go to someone who really needs them.

[jetsmom]

Albion- I don't recall Haiti, Honduras, or Somalia to name just a few, having Martial Law declared, and since it isn't a US territory it wouldn't apply, but we damn sure were down there providing policing duties. You can call it whatever you want, but the US wasn't concerned with definitions when they sent our troops there. We weren't fighting a war, so whatever you call it, we provided security (or tried to). THAT'S what we needed 4 days ago in NO.

[BumbleBee]

I find it really disturbing that we are criticizing people for not leaving in one sentence then critisizing those who left their pets in another.

Anyone see the connection. If you have generations of family and friends that you KNOW due to money cannot evacuate. How could you leave if you have the chance? In my opinion it would be even more heart breaking to get on a bus that had no room for Aunts, sisters, brothers or grandparents.

I am sure some people couldn't leave because THEY COULDN'T ABANDONE THEIR FAMILY.

I wish soo badly that I could help. The survivors can complain all they want. If I spent even an hour in their shoes I would be doing more than complaining.

[spots4sport]

This is from a 2002 article...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Imagine what a disaster it would be if a hurricane-driven storm surge up to 20 feet high swept into New Orleans or another Louisiana coastal city.

That's exactly the type of thing a team of Louisiana scientists will be thinking about over the next few years. Their task is to come up with such scenarios and try to figure out both what would happen and how best to recover.

The Louisiana Board of Regents recently approved a $3.7 million grant for the five-year study. The money comes from the state's share of the national tobacco lawsuit settlement.

Ivor van Heeden, deputy director of the LSU Hurricane Center, will head the effort.

The coastal wetlands that protect New Orleans and other coastal cities in Louisiana are shrinking, making people more vulnerable to hurricanes.

Even a slow-moving category 3 hurricane, which has sustained winds of 111-130 miles per hour, could flood New Orleans, van Heerden said.

"If you flood it completely, you are going to have 13 to 17 feet of water in the city. That forces people to get up on their roofs," van Heerden said. "There would be upwards of 400,000 people trapped because a large number will not evacuate, a large number don't own motor vehicles, some are disabled or street people."

One idea on how to rescue those people is what van Heerden and his associates call "Operation Dunkirk." Private boats from the North Shore would be used to reach people in New Orleans, van Heerden said. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can find the entire article here. (http://hurricane.lsu.edu/_in_the_news/april21_advocate.htm)

[adastra]

Amen y'all (and TFJ)!

And yes: there are plenty able bodied individuals in the disaster areas who can help, and are not - it really is an embarrasment how the NO snipers/looters/losers are acting - yep "lets make a bad situation worse"!!!! It is sickening to see - who cares what race (there are more than one) is looting, but, you would think all would be more worried with surviving than causing more chaos (like grabbing TV's etc). Oh, the state of our nation. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

And we shouldn't blame it all on Bush (so not happy with him either, but still). He is only human and has had without question, the most horrible two tenures ever.

Oh, saw the 2002 article too. They were "dead on". I only hope the gov't can learn from this. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Edited because the minute I wrote this, I heard that many other countries were offering aid. And thanks for the news clip Ellie K.:-) (her post is just below).

[Ellie K]

where are you getting the idea that other countries haven't offered aid? There has been a significant list of other countries offering all sorts of immediate aid since the very beginning. This has been reported repeatedly and consistently by major media.

--------------------
03.09.2005
From Deutsche-Welle:
US thanks foreign countries for aid
The United States has thanked dozens of foreign governments for their offers to help the country recover from Hurricane Katrina. US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said 60 nations had offered to provide aid for the stricken areas. Earlier in New York UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan said the world body had plenty of experience in dealing with disaster situations. Condoleeza Rice said no aid had been turned down and she was particularly moved by an offer from Sri Lanka, which is still recovering from last year's Indian Ocean tsunami.

[dkcbr]

Back to the original topic, I read the Snowball account in this thread while at work yesterday morning and, like others, have been haunted by it ever since. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

Now I have been awake since 4:30 this morning just filled with contentment that I have my dogs right here to snuggle with, and my horses right out in the backyard. This morning I feel like the luckiest person on earth. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[ise@ssl]

BTW - found out last evening there is an obscure law still on the books from after the CIVIL WAR which prohibits sending military forces into southern states. I could not believe it but my husband (who served) and is a walking encyclopedia on war history confirmed it.

Also one other problem - Louisiana law has no provisions for declaring Martial Law - they are the only state in the union without it.

[ise@ssl]

A friend forwarded this letter to me. It's from one of her close friends in Louisiana - it's worth reading.

Dear Friends,
&gt;
&gt; I appreciate the many inquiries, asking if I were all right in wake of
&gt; Katrina. I live in North Louisiana hill country, barely 60 miles from
&gt; Arkansas border. We were on the dry side of the storm.
&gt;
&gt; Driving home from school just now, I listened to NPR interview with the
&gt; President re New Orleans. The question essentially was "Why didn't the
&gt; federal government do more sooner?" I have heard that same question asked
&gt; of &gt; the Red Cross. The Louisiana National Guard response has also been
&gt; criticized by national presses.
&gt;
&gt; I hope it will not offend anyone if I note what is felt by most
&gt; Louisianians
&gt; and every New Orleanian I've encountered in this awful week (and I've met
&gt; a
&gt; few because I help at local refugee center). Most of us here are ashamed
&gt; and
&gt; appalled at the lack of focused,intelligent, strong leadership from the
&gt; Governor's office and the office of the Mayor of New Orleans. This absence
&gt; of leadership has created a nightmare both in the city and throughout the
&gt; state and spilling into Texas. I realize that had the Twin Towers existed
&gt; in
&gt; a major ghetto area, the response to 9/11 would likely have been more
&gt; problematic, and I know the many other circumstances that set the disaster
&gt; in NYC apart from the current problem in New Orleans. Yet, I also know
&gt; that
&gt; had we had the leadership both at state and city level which New York had,
&gt; all of us would be looking at different pictures on our television screens
&gt; right now.
&gt;
&gt; One detail might suggest a lot about the chaos at the top in city and
&gt; state
&gt; government: Texas' governor telephoned the Louisiana governor to offer the
&gt; Astrodome and other Texas facilities on Wednesday. It appears in the
&gt; conversation he had politely implied a plan that was eventually used to
&gt; get
&gt; people out of New Orleans. Apparently it had occurred to no one in
&gt; Louisiana
&gt; state gvt to inquire about these possibilities, even though Texas had made
&gt; general offers of help with the message to 'let us know what you need from
&gt; us.'
&gt;
&gt; Everyone who knows the city of New Orleans knew a strong National Guard
&gt; and
&gt; police presence would be required immediately following the general
&gt; evacuation of the city and then again after the hurricane's passage. Most
&gt; think the Guard should have been inside the city. Some think a nearby
&gt; staging ground would have been sufficient. They were in their homes
&gt; instead.
&gt;
&gt; And when the Guard entered the city, they were made responsible to the
&gt; N.O.
&gt; Police chief, not the Guard commandant. Nothing was done to correct that
&gt; and
&gt; so they were not permitted to do what they are trained to do: maintain
&gt; order. The decision not to secure the city immediately has been
&gt; disastrous.
&gt; The thugs that have been permitted to flourish in housing projects and
&gt; certain other zones took over the city, precluding most rescue efforts. It
&gt; was a short-sighted decision to use the guard to rescue individuals. More
&gt; people would have been saved had they been used to secure order
&gt; immediately,
&gt; before anarchy broke out.
&gt;
&gt; Yesterday, the entire LA Wildlife and Fisheries fleet of flat-bottom boats
&gt; and a large contingent of Texas' similar boats were lined up for miles
&gt; waiting to help in rescue effort. Yet the situation was so bad that not a
&gt; single boat was permitted to enter the city. A vessel loaded with water
&gt; and
&gt; supplies for those standing on I-10 overpass and Superdome could not get
&gt; near enough to unload badly needed supplies. The Red Cross was in a
&gt; similar
&gt; situation.
&gt;
&gt; The same story is repeated many times. It was only when the federal
&gt; government, in effect, determined to take control of the situation there
&gt; that any coherent plan emerged.
&gt;
&gt; While the federal government can be faulted for not acting to restore
&gt; wetlands and barrier islands and not to rebuild the levees to meet
&gt; requirements of a cat 5 storm, the primary fault for the shameful scene in
&gt; New Orleans mainly lies elsewhere.
&gt;
&gt; All of us are grateful for the nation's concern for New Orleans. And
&gt; we're
&gt; grateful to Texas.
&gt;
&gt; I send this because a number have asked about what the state looked like
&gt; from inside.
&gt;
&gt; G

[Windline]

My husband read a report that the mayor of new orleans told the residents Abandon the city, not evacuate! 2 days before it hit. In light of the great number of poverty level and elderly in NO Why werent steps taken then to move those residents by the NO city government!

[J Swan]

I'll clear a bit of this up - regarding use of our military.

It's called Posse Comitatus. It prohibits the use of active duty military within the United States.

The reason for this is a good one. When we created this country, we didn't want the military running it. We wanted civilians to be the ultimate power. The military must always be under the control of civilians.

Now - having said that - there are ways in which the military can be used within our borders without violating the Posse Comitatus Act. For whatever reason, and I don't know the reason, military aid was not requested the proper way.

The veneer of civilization is very thin. Laws must be followed or anarchy will result. Comandeering buses, martial law, shooting looters, quartering troops - all these are provided for by our Constitution and 200 years of law and precedent. BUT - the military CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be permitted to take these actions on their own. Local government must be the instigator and be specific about what they want - and work with higher levels of gov't to make it happen. Complaining about it on a radio talk show is NOT the way to make it happen.

The only thing that makes me ashamed is that some people are turning this into a race issue. People are people - whether they are black or white. There are white people stranded too. And many more dead - never to be found. The color of one's skin is of no importance.

I think that as a country, we need to rethink the issue of not allowing pets in shelters or factoring them into evacuation plans. Same thing with livestock. Not only for the animals sake, but for many legitmate health reasons. A pet can be a source of comfort and "normalcy" in times of disaster. Animals left abandoned can pack up, their carcasses can be a disease vector , and loose livestock can also be a health and safety hazard for humans.

Human and animal shelters can be planned and provided for (to the extent possible) by human charities and rescue groups working with animal charities and rescues. Perhaps there is a lesson here.

But please - don't make it a race issue. You make a mockery of the lives of those who have died - and will die.

[Jumphigh83]

My "whiteness" has nothing to do with my compassion. I am appalled that there would even be a parallel drawn here. Loving a pet is a HUMANE issue NOT a race issue. And as I sit in my NY home in all my whiteness I have black and asian nieces and nephews. So dont preach to me about racism I have seen it in all its ugliness directed at my family. THis is about HUMANITY NOT RACE. The choice was NOT about an animal or a person, it was about not allowing the animal the little boy chose to save as his valued possesion through that HELL and then to have some moron take it from him and toss it aside. Disgusting and disturbing.

[runspotrun]

The situation down there is absolutely awful...my prayers are with everyone involved (animals included).

But I just had to add my two cents on one of the topics discussed here. I got blasted by my old coworkers for this opinion, but I'm going to say it anyways. If I were evacuating, and I had my horses in the trailer and I was leaving, there are only a handful of people on this Earth that I would be willing to sacrifice my horses lives for. The reason being that when I bought my horses, I made an agreement to take care of them. They are my responsibility. I couldn't leave behind any more than I could leave my children behind. I just don't believe that human life is always, in every situation, more important than animal life.

My flame suit is fully zipped.

[coco]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Fjord Jockey:

They complain the buses aren't moving fast enough...flip side of story? They act like freaking maniacs when one DOES come around. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm. Every been in a crowd? Even in a situation as mundane as say a rock concert? Or say a sale on laptops?

Now, let's just say you haven't eaten or taken a shower for 4 days. It's 90 degrees outside, there's no a/c and no water.

A bus arrives. Hey. I'm a maniac at that point.

You would be too.

[ProzacPuppy]

The Snowball incident was supposedly a communication problem. Pets were supposed to be allowed on the buses to Houston. They are not allowed into the Astrodome but the Houston ASPCA, Humane Society etc. have all made room in their facilities and are serving as boarding kennels for evacuee pets until that time that the owners can claim them. Gives them a little bit less to worry about knowing that their pets are getting food and shelter, albeit crowded shelter. Unfortunately, due to the confusion and lack of communication among the guard and authorities, some of those helping load the buses are aware of the rules, some are not. A tragic story tho.

At which point I'd like to ask why the news and camera crews are unable to at least help out by taking the Snowballs to somewhere safe and letting us know. There are many who would be willing to do a few "pet runs" to help reunite displaced families with their pets.

On Jesse Jackson "playing the race card", which appears to be his modus operandi- This disaster did not only affect black people. This is a socio-economic issue, not racial. Is anyone even aware that there were approximately 100,000 Latinos who evacuated the city? Predominantly from Central America, many who left there following Hurricane Mitch to rebuild their lives in NO. I wasn't aware of them at all until last night. Somehow they have settled into motels and with other hispanic families in Houston and many are already working or lining up at the day labor lots to pay the bills. Just busy taking responsibility for their lives in the face of disaster once again.

You really have to be here to understand the magnitude of this situation. For alot of Houstonians life is also on hold as businesses, government and individuals put all their attention and effort into helping the evacuees. This is not just about taking a few boxes of supplies to the Dome. People are showing up around the clock to work shifts trying to help. (Some) doctors are working around the clock, taking in patients with no history, no insurance, no money (and this is not only a monetary issue for them but a liability issue). Some aren't willing to risk the liability but kudos to the ones who stepped up and are caring for the sick, delivering high risk pregnancies (always a liability nightmare) etc.

Hopefully Astroworld can find a way to open its doors to the Dome residents for a day to take their minds off their suffering. I know that they are "working on the logistics".

Already overcrowded schools are making room for evacuee children and collecting supplies and clothes for the new students (because as my son pointed out "The clothes they give out at the shelters is bad". So we've got teens picking out clothes and sneakers for teens so that they will be "well dressed" (may not seem important to you but to a 17 year old girl in a new school -that is overwhelming white and wealthy- with just the clothes on her back its huge).

Houston is a city already stretched to the breaking limit financially by a huge underclass (both legal and illegal). They have just shouldered the burden of hundreds of thousands more for who knows how long. Yes, city government is already telling us we are going to suck it up and help pay for it with more taxes and fees (tho I can't imagine what they have left to tax or charge fees for). Personal observations tell me that Houston will probably never be back to pre-Katrina life again. It is being changed irreversibly by its generousity.

Houston barely got rain from the storm but it has had a huge impact on lives here, both logistically and emotionally. Even if you don't think you care, when you get up close and personal it is hard to keep from crying for their losses.

Easy to sit at a remove and tell people how to feel and what to do. Hard to be in the center of the morass and think straight.

[carosello]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3337537
Sept. 3, 2005, 4:54AM

ANIMALS
Shelters expect 'glut' of furry evacuees
The SPCA here is already housing hundreds of pets left homeless in Katrina's wake
By MELANIE MARKLEY
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle


When the golden retriever mix named Precious arrived at the Astrodome on Friday with her New Orleans owner, the 5-year-old dog promptly joined hundreds of other hurricane-weary pets at a Houston animal shelter.

The dog, who rode to Houston on a bus with her owner after the two swam, on and off, for two days to escape their flooded home, wasn't allowed into the landmark arena.

But workers with the Houston Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals were on hand to offer Precious and other homeless pets shelter at their crowded facility at 900 Portway Drive.

"The woman was so happy that she was able to find a place to take care of her baby while she took care of herself," said SPCA spokeswoman Alice Sarmiento. "These are people who love their pets so much they risked life and limb to get them here."

The Houston SPCA was sheltering about 400 animals displaced by Hurricane Katrina on Friday and expected about 300 more from Louisiana by late evening.

Sarmiento said the facility was looking to make more space available by moving adoptable animals already there to other Texas shelters

"Our main focus now is providing housing for these evacuees," Sarmiento said.

At the Houston Humane Society, spokeswoman Courtney Frank said her facility was busy adding temporary shelter space to house a continuing influx.

"We are expecting a glut," Frank said, adding that as of Friday afternoon, all the animals at that facility had been surrendered by their owners and would be put up for adoption.

Frank said the Humane Society's wellness center at 14810 Almeda Road would be open from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. on Saturday and Sunday to give out free vaccinations, flea treatment and food for pets whose owners have Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama driver's licenses.

Meanwhile, national animal protection groups were preparing to enter New Orleans and other storm-stricken areas to try to rescue the thousands of pets that were left to fend for themselves when the storm struck.

A number of animals were left behind when some authorities refused to let evacuees board the buses at the Superdome with their pets.

According to the Associated Press, a police officer took one dog from a little boy who cried "Snowball, Snowball!" until he vomited. The policeman told a reporter he didn't know what would happen to the dog.

Laura Lanza, a spokeswoman for the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals in the southern region, said groups are trying to pick up the animals that have been left behind by the buses.

Also, she said, emergency rescue vehicles are prepared to enter the stricken area as soon as possible to pick up abandoned pets.

People who left pets stranded in their homes can contact the ASPCA at 212-876-7700, ext. 4700.

The animals will not been forgotten, Lanza said.

"This is a disaster of unheard-of precedence, and our people have all responded from every national animal organization there is. There are hundreds of people on site right now working to get in there and help."

[ProzacPuppy]

The shelters are trying to make amends for some enormous errors in judgement and management(euthanizing dogs the day they are picked up!!http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif). Great people, enormously underfunded and overworked (ya'll have seen Animal Cops Houston I think http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif). I'm sure that if pet lovers want to help the ASPCA and Houston Humane Society (among others) care for evacuee pets they would be thrilled to have some contributions (hint hint http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

[ise@ssl]

From the bottom of my heart -

THANK YOU TEXAS.............

Honest to God you people came through and watching the Governor of Texas on television was truly an inspiration to everyone.

GOD BLESS YOU ALL.

[Jesse'sMom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by trailblazer:
The choice is simple for me. I would sooner die than leave my dog behind. As much as I would hate to, I would leave the horses. But never the dog. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
AMEN!!!!!!! THATS EXACTLY how i feel...
BUT READY FOR THIS.I am SICK over this.......
I know someone who is there helping, & that person told me that they are euthanizing any strays they find, because of disease, not knowing if they were eating corpses... YOU KNWO WHAT REALLY GETS MY ASS??? ALOT of these dogs are most likely MICROCHIPPED, but they are not checking...

[Daydream Believer]

With tears in my eyes, I pray that all the Snowball's left behind can be reunited with their families. What a tragic mess it is that they were seperated from them to begin with. I also want to thank the folks in Texas for their extraordinary generosity and hospitality. I wish I were closer and could do more to help.

[chai]

Prozac Puppy, thanks for a great post. I can only imagine the impact on your city and you should all be thanked by the rest of the country for stepping up to the plate to help the refugees.
I saw an activist on television last night and I was so saddened by his attempts to pit Black against White. In a hate-filled rant, he actually said that white police are no better than looters because they took medical supplies to doctors who needed them. I couldn't believe my eyes and ears. Talk like that is so hate-filled and incendiary. It is refreshing, Prozac Puppy, to hear about the good people who are stepping up to help instead of promoting a political agenda on the backs of all the people who have suffered in this catastrophe.

[The Fjord Jockey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by coco:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Fjord Jockey:

They complain the buses aren't moving fast enough...flip side of story? They act like freaking maniacs when one DOES come around. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm. Every been in a crowd? Even in a situation as mundane as say a rock concert? Or say a sale on laptops?

Now, let's just say you haven't eaten or taken a shower for 4 days. It's 90 degrees outside, there's no a/c and no water.

A bus arrives. Hey. I'm a maniac at that point.

You would be too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really catching what that has to do with much. The fact of the matter is: The buses have been leaving because they are acting fruity when one pulls around. I don't care what the reason is.

So, UMMM...what's your point?

[Erin]

I think the point is that panic and mob mentality are not exclusive to the people in New Orleans. In fact, it's human nature, and to expect it NOT to happen is just unreasonable. Especially when you've lost everything you have, you haven't slept or showered in a week, and there's seemingly no authority or plan to help you.

[lilblackhorse]

djh--I haven't waded thru 9 pages, but

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Heck I saw one news interview the night before the storm came in with a woman and her 3 year old daughter. They were going to ride the storm out on her boyfriends SHRIMP boat! They are all probably dead now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


someone probably has answered this for you, but I guess NBC got a ton of phone calls regarding this family. They found them the next day, they said they rocked a few times and they were fine. They seem to be better off than many, but that was before flooding, yet being on a boat, if they had enough supplies, they are most likely doing better than most folks.

[Albion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Albion- I don't recall Haiti, Honduras, or Somalia to name just a few, having Martial Law declared, and since it isn't a US territory it wouldn't apply, but we damn sure were down there providing policing duties. You can call it whatever you want, but the US wasn't concerned with definitions when they sent our troops there. We weren't fighting a war, so whatever you call it, we provided security (or tried to). THAT'S what we needed 4 days ago in NO. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

jetsmom, there are rules the military has to abide by in this country (ie, they can't arrest, imprison, and try you unless CIVILIAN courts have been suspended by MARTIAL LAW; they can't commandeer your house for whatever purpose, etc.) and no, they DON'T apply in other countries when we're invading, coming in for other purposes, etc.

The LA governor has asked Bush to declare martial law and send in the 82nd. YES, I think something should have been done DAYS ago. 7000 NG MPs aren't going to make much difference when the mob mentality has taken off and people are acting like animals. They should've sent the 82nd in and declared martial law (or not - just issued the "shoot to kill" order). One of the advisors to the NGB told my mum yesterday that the next 24 hours were critical - if they couldn't get the city under control, well .....

Look, I AGREE with you that something should've been done days ago. I'm sure there are sociologist on staff at FEMA who could've predicted what would've happened when the poorest members of a society that has a yawning gap between rich and poor, and oftentimes between black and white, got left behind in deplorable conditions. I'm simply saying that the Army can't just march in and take over - they CANNOT arrest people, they CANNOT imprision people, they CANNOT try people - UNLESS martial law is declared. They can shoot them. That's about it. Now, if they'd sent in the military BEFORE the hurricane and declared martial law, they could've FORCED people to leave at gunpoint. However, we live in the US and that wouldn't fly very well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

In helping animal news, this was posted to one of the groups I belong to for rescue-related news:

There is transportation provided, with people ready and waiting, for upwards of 200 dogs and 150 cats so far rescued from the devastation of hurricane Katrina. What these animals need is a place to go. Kennels, boarding, vets offices, shelters with any extra space, foster homes and rescues. Even one or two open kennels would greatly help.

From what we know, all animals have been vaccinated and are in good health considering the conditions. There are dogs and cats of every breed and size. Some are in groups of two, three or four, hailing from the same family, while some are solitary. ANY KENNEL SPACE AVAILABLE CAN CERTAINLY BE USED. These drivers are willing to move these animals ANYWHERE they need to go. Absolutely anywhere.

The current safe houses for these animals are being inundated and some of these pets will have to be euthanized if they are not moved to make room for the incoming animals.

Please feel free to pass on this information everywhere. Every forum, every list, every community.

REMEMBER THESE ANIMALS WILL BE TRANSPORTED TO YOU.

If you know anyone, anywhere, that is willing to take in even one cat or dog, please have them contact Lynda at the information provided below.

They are also asking for ANY kind of donations for the animals - money, food, bedding, water, etc.


Please Contact Lynda V. at: 203 515 3024 (cell)
Home: 203 227 5308
Email: Lynda@portone.com

[mairzeadoats]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So, UMMM...what's your point? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with everything Erin said, and would add that along with your own hunger and thirst, consider watching your children and love ones suffer and not be able to do a thing about it.

It seems pretty unfair and mean-spirited to pass judgement, even on the looters, unless and until you've actually gone 4 or 5 days with no food, no water, in unsufferable heat and humidity, wearing the same filthy clothes, and breathing the stench of feces and death, no sign of help, injured with no medical care, sleeping on wet ground, and watching people die in front your eyes.

Some people will break and go nuts. Any one of us could be those people. Until you've been there, you have no way of knowing whether you'll be stoic or crazed.

[Jaegermonster]

Ok so why can the Latinos take the initiative to deal with the situation, as someone posted above,and the blacks are too busy rioting and standing in parking lots pumping their fists screaming "We want help" and waiting for a handout? I was beginning to wonder if any white people lived in New Orleans? Not that this disaster has anything to do with race, but I was just noticing the disproportionality of things I was seeing and wondering if the depiction was accurate or just media sensationalism?

[Erin]

Whoa whoa whoa... I don't think you even want to GO there.

Plenty of white folks live in New Orleans. (And I'm sure plenty of Latinos, too.) Most likely, most of them had cars and credit cards and family to stay with outside of NO.

If you have no money, no car, and most of your relatives live within a few blocks of you, it's an entirely different story.

These are POOR people with no RESOURCES. Whether or not they have "intiative" is NOT the point. They are now *stuck* and feel like they're being ignored and no one cares. I'd be screaming and pumping my fist too.

[Albion]

2/3rds of the population of NO is black. A lot of those people are VERY poor, living in very hard-hit areas. These people have lost EVERYTHING they had and a lot of them probably feel they have nothing to live for - no jobs, no houses, no food, no water, with dead bodies coverd by blankets in the middle of the street. There are racial tensions in the city & always have been, and that's bubbling to the surface now. People could've seen this coming - hello, the poorest residents of the city are left behind with no food and water & with help coming verrrry slowly to them? What did people THINK was going to happen? Race and class tensions often lead to this sort of violence in bad times. Happens all over the world (see the rioting that took place in Chizhou, PRC in June - this is hardly exclusive to black people in the US. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif).

And yes, there has been "racist" reporting in the media. White people photographed after getting into a grocery store are captioned as having "found food," whilst black people photographed after getting into a grocery store are captioned as "looting food." Now please tell me what the difference is.

I don't agree with people looting jewelry and clothing and electronics stores, but if you had kids to feed and NO water or food, would you just stand idly by and watch them die?

[Jaegermonster]

Whoa Whoa Whoa Erin. That wasn't meant the way you apparently took it. Just as you said, apparently there are whites, blacks, latinos whatever all in the same situation out there. So why are we only seeing the blacks (predominantly) on the news rioting looting raping, shooting at choppers and sniping hospitals? Someone else posted before me that the Latino population had taken great strides since the disaster to improve their situation. So what's up with the others? Is it media sensationalism or something more?
My personal experience from the national disasters that I have personally been sent to assist at and also the hurricanes in my own area last summer are as follows (and also see my previous long post):
When the trees were down in the nice, wealthy predominantly white sections of N. FL after the hurricanes, the residents were out in the street with chain saws, hand saws, and trucks getting the roads cleared. In the low income sections of our area, the residents stood around staring at it (sometimes for days since we were overrun) bitching and complaining about why "they" didn't do "their" job, instead of grabbing the bull by the horns and trying to deal with it. Those same areas also had the highest incidence of looting and violent crime during and after the disasters (more than usual for the area, anyway).
And just for the record, I'm not the one "going there". Our old friend Jesse Jackson did a good job of opening that up himself, as did several of the residents that spoke on television, and several other posters before me. And I think it's a legitimate question. Our country is based on people pulling themselves by their bootstraps, and everyone pulling together. I don't think it's based on one group sitting around with their sticking out waiting for the silver platter to come around. Sometimes you have to show some initiative.
And for the record you don't know what color I am so relax.

[mairzeadoats]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Not that this disaster has anything to do with race, but I was just noticing the disproportionality of things I was seeing and wondering if the depiction was accurate or just media sensationalism? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The people trapped in the city were, as Erin said, low-income who depend on public transportation and live paycheck-to-paycheck, and the sick and elderly, with no private transportation out. Public transportation out was not provided, so the "mandatory evacution" was ineffective.

The fact that most of the faces you see on your t.v. are black is not media sensationalism, and is true. Because that is who the majority of low income people in New Orleans are.

If you want to dismiss them as lacking initiative, remember the next time you're at a motel that the toilet you set your bum on was likely cleaned by a low income person. The elderly person that greets or checks you out at Walmarts is a low income person. The sharecroppers who pick the food you eat are very low income. Many, many services that you take for granted pay jack sh*t, and these people's "lack of initiative" keeps your prices lower.

If you look back to a week ago, Cothers were frightened that a couple fellow Cothers had not yet loaded their horses up and driven out on Saturday. We all could see what was coming 2-3 days before it hit.

Unfortunately, the people in charge of preparing for it were either looking somewhere else or consider the underclass who serves them to be expendable. But whatever the reason, it somehow didn't occur to them to mobilize our resources to bring food and water into the shelters in advance. Or to use school and public buses to evacuate those who couldn't walk 50 or 60 miles to safety in two days, even if they had a place to go.

[Jaegermonster]

Thank you ALbion for reading my WHOLE post before responding to it, instead of only the part that may have made you a little mad.
That's what I was getting at. It seems the media has some sort of inflammatory agenda and I would like to know why there is such disproportionality in the reporting? Is that the actual demographics of the area, or is it that they are trying to inflame people by being "politically correct" or whatever you want to call it? Or show the most drama? Or what is the deal? I think it needs to be more accurate reporting and less editorializing.
As a police officer, and my colleagues and I have discussed this, I would not say one word to someone who stole from a grocery store to feed their family, but I would have a big problem with someone who looted a Radio Shack.
That's only the point I was trying to make, what's up with the sensationalism in reporting.

[ProzacPuppy]

From what I have seen, the frustrated, angry mobs rushing any form of transport are totally different from the looters and shooters. One reporter compared the thugs to what he saw in Somalia during their civil war- warring factions riding around on the back of trucks, heavily armed. These are the ones who are also storming the hospitals for drugs and shooting at the police. And personally I think if they can catch the thugs they should be punished as severely as the law will allow (doesn't Louisiana have the death penalty?).

One of my neighbors who works in New Orleans (long commute http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) said that Louisiana is like a "different country" as they are the only state that uses Napoleanic law. Supposedly that is making it doubly hard for the various levels of government to make decisions and take responsibility. Tho I still feel that it was the government's (either state or city) responsibility to evac the hospitals and state and city run nursing homes during the 3 or 4 days warning. From the time the storm came across Florida the newsmen were saying it would only get stronger and more dangerous as it moved north in the Gulf. Two days out they were predicting a Cat 5 landfall. You'd think they would have mobilized then.

Does eating a dead body immediately mean that a dog is "toxic"?

And now they say that there are busloads coming from the Lafayette CajunDome (early evacuees) but the Cajundome can no longer keep them (not sure why).

Jesse Jackson is/was at the Dome stirring up trouble with his cry that it is all racial. The sad truth is it is all socio-economic. It could not have happened in a worse location. NO has a huge population of the extremely poor, is notorious for "old boy" Southern government (and all that that implies).

I am impressed that Fidel Castro has offered the US 1100 doctors with medicine and equipment. Interesting to see if the US accepts any assistance.

I cannot imagine being in that situation with a horse. How helpless you would be. When Tropical Storm Allison flooded Houston 4 years ago I remember that the first thing I did when it got light was attempt to drive across the city to check on my horse at his trainers. The 50 mile trip took me hours and miles out of my way but until I saw for myself I could not rest.

[EponaRoan]

About an hour ago, CNN had live footage of an interview with a man who had just been helicoptered out of New Orleans with his chihuahuas. He said he and his partner were given a choice of taking luggage or the dogs (3 chihuahuas). They chose the dogs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Albion]

Jaegermonster, part of the problem may be that in other areas, people may HAVE chainsaws to start clearing areas. I doubt that many low-income residents of the 9th Ward have anything like that. They don't HAVE anything. What ARE they supposed to do? After the wee hurricane hit Fredericksburg, we did have residents out with their chainsaws, etc., helping to clear roads - however, we live in an area where you're dealing with mostly middle-and-up class people, and they DO have equipment. You're also dealing with an area that still (barely) has some more rural area, where Billy Joe is more likely to have a chainsaw and a big truck that he uses for his tree business, and he can get out there and DO stuff. How many middle-and-up *urban* residents do you know who have chainsaws, much less know how to use them?

If you've only visited NO as a tourist, chances are you haven't seen the desperate poverty that much of the city lives in. What I'm about to say may piss people off, but I think it's absolutely true - NO is still very much a racist city. I know a lot of fairly well-off white New Orleanians who are flat out afraid of black people. They KNOW there's a yawning gap between a lot of the white population and the rest of the city, many of whom are black and impoverished. They KNOW because of that there is tension right under the surface. It's bound to boil over at some point - it really isn't exclusive to blacks in the US. I think the attitude of racism and the perennial issues between the haves-and-have-nots most certainly permeates the city & reporting. I think it's also exacerbating the situation - people aren't just pissed about not having food and water, they're pissed about how they live and how they're treated in general.

[EqTrainer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mairzeadoats:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So, UMMM...what's your point? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with everything Erin said, and would add that along with your own hunger and thirst, consider watching your children and love ones suffer and not be able to do a thing about it.

It seems pretty unfair and mean-spirited to pass judgement, even on the looters, unless and until you've actually gone 4 or 5 days with no food, no water, in unsufferable heat and humidity, wearing the same filthy clothes, and breathing the stench of feces and death, no sign of help, injured with no medical care, sleeping on wet ground, and watching people die in front your eyes.

Some people will break and go nuts. Any one of us could be those people. Until you've been there, you have no way of knowing whether you'll be stoic or crazed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for saying this. We have NO IDEA what it is like to be in this position. We should all be grateful that we are *not* and doing all we can for those who *are* rather than passing judgement.

[Erin]

Regarding the "looting" vs. "taking" photos, it's not necessarily as cut and dried as that: http://www.snopes.com/photos/katrina/looters.asp

Photographers can only state in the caption what they absolutely know to be true. One photographer physically saw a person walk out of a store with stuff, hence he said "looting." The other photographer only saw people carrying stuff, hence "found."

[Lord Helpus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jetsmom:
Ghazzu- I saw that interview with Chertoff. He is truly inept.
He also ended up quoting some obscure rule that "we are not allowed to use or military for policing activities" in response to a reporter asking why we can't get a grip on security issues in NO. I guess he never heard about our activities in Honduras, Haiti, Nicaraugua, Bosnia, Somalia, Afganistan and others that I am forgetting? That's ALL the active duty military was being used for for years until the gulf war...policing activities.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is not an obscure law. I believe it is part of the Constitution, or at least an amendment or something. It goes back to the beginning of the country.

Our founding fathers were very careful to define the rights of the States v. the Federal Government. In fact, the Constitution lists what the Federal Gov't can do and then says that EVERYTHING else is the province of the States.

The founding fathers were worried that the Federal Government would gain so much power that it would swoop in and take over the individual states and the President would become a dictator.

After all, the intent was that this new country become The United States of America.

Toward this end (of limiting the Federal Government's power vis a vis the States), a law (Posse Commitatus) was included in the Constitution that said that the Federal Government could not send troops in to bear arms against citizens or to arrest citizens.

If you know the reason for this law, it all makes perfect sense and it is not an "obscure" law at all.

But, you may ask, what were those old fogeys thinking of? What happens when there is a disaster that the local police force cannot deal with?

Ah Ha! The old fogeys who wrote the Constitution are not dummies. They realized that there was a need for a group of people to help the local police in times of need. THAT's why they created the NATIONAL GUARD!!!!! A state by state chartered and funded group of "weekend warriors" whose purpose is to be an invisible 'on call' police force in case of emergencies.

But, but, but... why didn't they just call up the National Guard?

Because, tens of thousands of the National Guard, in contravention of what they were desinged to do, have been called into full time service and are over in FRIGGIN' IRAQ! So Bush is left with the military who is not allowed to keep the peace on US soil because of Posse Commitatus.

So sad. So very, very sad.

[ProzacPuppy]

Another thing- they are reporting a number of rapes at the Astrodome now. I don't care how frustrated, angry etc you are, that is beyond despicable if true.

Don't confuse 'working poor' with "welfare poor". The "welfare mentality" crosses racial lines- I'm so poor and downtrodden nothing I do can make any difference and it is someone else's responsibility to see that I have a home and food and medical.

Houston has a huge population of the working poor (mostly hispanic).Opportunities for better paying jobs are limited by language barriers and sometimes citizenship issues. But they don't just throw up their hands in disgust or go on the dole. But they work incredibly hard to support families here and in Mexico. Working poor.

I am not saying all the evacuees are welfare poor, but I'm sure some are. One evacuee at the Dome wanted a car as she "had things to do". When the volunteer told her no she played the race card. Gimmee a break.

I'm curious as to how many of the able bodied young men at the Dome show up at the day labor lots.

Oh well, gotta go get ready, heading downtown again. Looks like rain.....

[Albion]

LH, the government can still declare martial law. They haven't, but they can. Just like Lincoln suspended the writ of Habeus Corpus during the Civil War, LOTS of those pesky issues can be worked around in times of crisis. :P They could still call in regular Army troops - it wasn't the NG, but the 82nd Airborne who made sure those black students in Little Rock got safely into schools and safely out again.

BTW, they didn't "create" the NG. The state militias had been in existance WELL before the Constitution was written ("In order to maintain a well-regulated militia ..."). Like, 17th century early. The name change happened when Lafayette came on his farewell tour of the US in the 1820s - one of the NY units changed their name from militia to "national guard" in honor of Lafayette (it's "le guard nationale" in French - I'm sure I just butchered that spelling). Sorry, my mum is the chief historian of the NGB and I've grown up with this stuff. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Yes, this just illustrates one of the many reasons the NG is needed at home. I don't think many people realize HOW MUCH they do in terms of helping during natural disasters. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[hijumpin1]

Ok, I am just throwing in my 2 cents, but why was seemingly nothing done in preparation? Why were not busloads of people being evacuated DAYS in advance? One would think there would be some kind of machinery in place for the emergency rescue of an imperiled citys' population. Why the "wait-and-see" attitude when a category 5 hurricane was well on its way, knowing the destruction is going to be on a level of a sustained tornado!!? I can understand if the destruction happened in an unforeseeable way, such as an earthquake, tsunami or even 9-11! That is the most frustrating thing in my mind, the ineptitude and ill-concieved planning here. It is just like everyone was paralyzed in front of an oncoming freight train! Was anyone at fault here? It is something to ponder. We have all these "color-coded" terrorist warnings in place, what about natural disasters??! This is the US for crying out loud.

[BoldChance]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Albion:
I don't agree with people looting jewelry and clothing and electronics stores, but if you had kids to feed and NO water or food, would you just stand idly by and watch them die? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And, to boot, the food in the grocery stores that they are taking is hardly going to be fit for consumption by the time the city is inhabitted again. With supplies so slow in coming, I would be on the grocery stores picking up food for myself & my hypothetical family, AND Bring as much as I can carry for anyone who is too infirm to go get their own, too. It's not looting - it's being as resourceful as possible in a horrible situation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Unfortunately, the people in charge of preparing for it were either looking somewhere else or consider the underclass who serves them to be expendable.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I kind of wonder... if that isn't part of it. I mean, every one of those people left in NO are going to be the responsibility of the gov't - it will be gov't $$ that feeds, clothes, houses them initially, and gets them back on their feet.
And as horrible as the thought is, I kind of wondered as I watched the news if the gov't hasn't been so slow in part because, the more people who die before being rescued (irregardless of race), the less people they have to pay for for the next X months/years. Horrible, unhumanitarian thought, I know...

horrible all around - and so very sad.

BC

[hijumpin1]

I agree with you BoldChance. It almost makes you wonder if the "higher-ups" percieved this population as expendable. Would the preparation have been the same if hypothetically a cat 5 hurricane was headed toward Wall Street? LA? Connecticut? As far as looting, I myself would'nt hesitate to take from a grocery...as unlawful and unethical as it may be. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

[The Fjord Jockey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin:
I think the point is that panic and mob mentality are not exclusive to the people in New Orleans. In fact, it's human nature, and to expect it NOT to happen is just unreasonable. Especially when you've lost everything you have, you haven't slept or showered in a week, and there's seemingly no authority or plan to help you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't recall saying that I didn't expect it to happen.

[The Fjord Jockey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EqTrainer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mairzeadoats:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So, UMMM...what's your point? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with everything Erin said, and would add that along with your own hunger and thirst, consider watching your children and love ones suffer and not be able to do a thing about it.

It seems pretty unfair and mean-spirited to pass judgement, even on the looters, unless and until you've actually gone 4 or 5 days with no food, no water, in unsufferable heat and humidity, wearing the same filthy clothes, and breathing the stench of feces and death, no sign of help, injured with no medical care, sleeping on wet ground, and watching people die in front your eyes.

Some people will break and go nuts. Any one of us could be those people. Until you've been there, you have no way of knowing whether you'll be stoic or crazed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for saying this. We have NO IDEA what it is like to be in this position. We should all be grateful that we are *not* and doing all we can for those who *are* rather than passing judgement. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I still do not see how this justifies stealing microwaves and tvs......please explain theories. I'm all for busting up some windows for food and needed supplies. And does anyone have any excuses for the rapes that have been reported?????

Once again, allow me to emphasize (for those of you who apparently didn't bother reading/paying attention to what I posted) there are MANY good people suffering through all of this, and it's a shame that the bad ones are making such a wreck of it.

If you are so naive that you are going to give every one of these people the excuse that, "they're good people, just desperate" then you need some more time in the real world.

[Albion]

Yes, the "excuse" is that they SHOULD HAVE sent the military in a few days ago & issued shoot to kill orders. 7000 Guard MPs aint going to cut it, people. You nip this crap in the bud BEFORE it starts to spiral out of control - like, you know, BEFORE you have armed gangs carousing in the streets.

You can't expect people to police themselves in a panicky crisis situation. Hobbes was on to something with the innate badness of people - although I think it's more akin to animalistic impulses. So what do you do? Send people in to police them. Now, I'm totally OK with the 82nd Airborne getting dropped in & having shoot-to-kill orders when dealing with people who are endangering the lives of others, either by acts of physical violence or impeding the rescue & relief efforts. But just imagine the hue and cry in the press if THAT were to happen.

Mobs are unpredictable, just like packs of animals are unpredictable. Someone said the veneer of civilization is very, very thin - and that's very, very true. Sad, but true. I'm sure any competent sociologist could've predicted problems like this would crop up in such a situation. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that situations like this can QUICKLY spiral out of control if there isn't swift and harsh action.

I've seen the typhoon evacuation in China mentioned a few times on various boards, and statements like "the evacuation went much smoother because people weren't shooting or raping or looting." That's right, because things would not be allowed to progress to the shooting, raping, and pillaging stage in China, becuase they'd SHOOT PEOPLE DOING THAT, and everyone knows it. Hell, a security guard at a very hip club I was at in Shanghai was beating a beggar over the head with his night stick after the guy refused the security guard's order to leave. I can't imagine what they'd do to people like the ones in NO who are raping and looting and running around with guns like we're living in some freaking 3rd World war-torn country. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif However, this being the US, I just don't think that would be received very well & every agency and government involved in this whole mess is trying to put a good spin on things.

[The Fjord Jockey]

I agree, Albion.

This did get pretty out of control, and anyone could have seen this coming.

By the way....anyone else see Kanye West's brilliant statement on NBS last night? As taken from Yahoo!: "Appearing two-thirds through the program, he claimed 'George Bush doesn't care about black people' and said America is set up 'to help the poor, the black people, the less well-off as slow as possible.'"

Yes, Bush hates blacks. And Condoleezza Rice is a white cracker.

[Albion]

Fjord Jockey, I do think you're missing part of the overall picture of NO as a place and a culture - it IS a pretty racist place and issues of race are ALWAYS bubbling under the surface. I don't think it excuses the behavior of a lot of people, but sadly, I think it has a lot to do with the problems that are going on right now - and the problems that are going to be going on for the next however-long-it-takes. You're just seeing tensions that have been there for years bubbling over. And as I said earlier, this is NOT a problem that is exclusive to poor black people in the US. Exchange race for class (and in this case, the two are very much linked) & you see this happening all over the world.

I don't think it excuses anything that's going on, but I think it explains a lot. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I also think everyone who is continuing to drag race into the picture is NOT helping the situation. Seriously, there are a lot of problems to scream about, but I don't think screaming about racism is going to help ANYTHING right now.

[Jaegermonster]

I have to admit that I think I am in the same camp with Fjiord Jockey (forgive me if I spelled it wrong) and Prozac Puppy, especially regarding the "working poor" vs the "welfare poor". There is a very real difference. I think we are seeing alot of the "welfare poor" mentality represented in the media and frankly those people make me want to throw up. I have all the empathy in the world for the decent hardworking people that are stuck in this awful situation due to crappy life circumstances prior to the storm. That could very well have been us last summer. We were without power for 10 days after Hurricane Ivan, thank God for our generator, and my husband and I were also working since we are cops and that's what we do. I actually took a bath in the pool with a bar of soap at one point, and was glad to have it.
After 15 years in the ghetto as a cop, nothing people do to each other surprises me anymore. However, I also agree that no matter what your personal situation is, to take advantage and go around burning, raping, and robbing and being a "Louisiana Warlord" under these circumstances is absolutely despicable.
I apologize if I struck a nerve with anyone in my prior posts, that was not my intent. My intent was only to spotlight the disproportionality in the media and to inquire if that is an accurate depiction of life in that area.
They were just saying on the news that things are starting to look up and more aid is arriving the area. It is absolutely unbelievable the extent of the devastation in that part of the country.

[jetsmom]

My point re Chertoff's comments were that he said "We can not send the active duty military in to help secure the city".
All it takes to do so is to have the Gov declare Martial law, which the state of Miss. did on Tues. LA's Gov did not. We have now had active duty military in NO since yesterday...not just National Guard. And in fact the 82nd airborne and 1st Cav are due to arrive today or tomorrow. So we can use active duty military when neccessary...and it should have been done a lot earlier.

[Carol Ames]

tio al DEBT!

[Carol Ames]

Please remember these scenes when next you VOTE! THe services these people need have been cut to the BONE! and, yet the national debt increases, "remember "Mission accomplished?"

[Albion]

jetsmom, Chertoff has proven himself to be an absolute idiot, as I'm sure you've seen. Watching his press conferences this weekend has been downright painful.

The PRESIDENT has to declare martial law to allow the regular army to take over policing duties. Which is what the LA governor has been ASKING Bush to do. The woman is clearly in over her head & not the sharpest tool in the shed & wants the feds to take NO over. Unfortunately, the guy who ran against her for the election (who was very sharp and on the ball & would probably be doing a MUCH better job) was Indian, tho LA born & raised, and there are still a lot of people who won't vote for you if you're not white.

The press has been misuing the term martial law, which just means that civilian courts are suspended & the military takes jurisdiction, all week. The President could've sent in the 82nd WITHOUT declaring martial law, which is what is happening. WHY they didn't send in regular army troops earlier is the question.

[ise@ssl]

The GOVERNORS have to call up the National Guard in their states. Louisiana's poor excuse for a Governor put the LA National Guard ON ALERT. Now that meant they were all homes in their own homes. SHE failed to call them up and have them ready in NO. I've posted on here what happened. When they finally arrived they were told to report to the Chief or NO Police - THIS IS TOTALLY WRONG. And they are trained and drilled and trained and drilled to FIRST establish peace and control BUT nooooooooooooooooo NO told them to rescue people and the looters and thugs were un-checked.

It's ridiculous that most people don't even understand how the laws of this country work and who can legally do what, when, where and how.

And Erin - NO is predominantly black in population - there are other parish's right adjacent to NO that are not. The gross poverty in most of NO is NOT NEWS. If you go there - they tell you straight out - DON'T GO BEYOND THESE STREETS. Waving a finger at the Federal Government about this begs the question - with all that money coming from tourism - the NO Mayor (who is black) couldn't focus on the needs of these - the poorest in his city when a #5 Hurricane was bearing down on his city?

LACK OF LEADERSHIP WAS THE FAILURE HERE. Not at the Presidential level. Some of you just want to BUSH BASH - lets look at facts not opinion.

THERE WAS NO LACK OF NATIONAL GUARDS, STATE POLICE FROM OTHER STATES, MILITARY ASSISTANCE UNITS, ETC. TO HELP NEW ORLEANS DUE TO THE WAR IN IRAQ. The NO Mayor and the LA Governor - CHOCKED - FAILED TO LEAD AND FAILED TO HAVE A PLAN IN PLACE AS THEY WERE TOLD TO DO YEARS AGO.

THANK GOD Texas did!

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:
And Erin - NO is predominantly black in population - there are other parish's right adjacent to NO that are not. The gross poverty in most of NO is NOT NEWS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, yeah, I know. Not news to me, Ilona.

If you are referring to my response to a previous post, my issue was with the fact that someone seemed to be asserting that RACE determined whether or not someone had "initiative" or not. Race has nothing to do with it. Nor does race predict whether or not someone has the sense to evacuate.

Ilona, have you heard the reports that up to 2/3 of the NO police department has DESERTED? The mayor DID tell everyone to leave and DID apparently try to evacuate those who didn't have a means to leave on their own.

Let me ask you this... what if, say, terrorists had managed to blow up the levee instead of a hurricane? What if there was NO evacuation and if the senator and mayor drowned in their homes along with the rest of the population and there was a complete leadership vacuum?

After this week, how much confidence do you have in the federal government's ability to step in and help? I sure as hell don't have any.

The state and local governments in Louisiana were clearly overwhelmed, as most state and local governments are in a huge disaster. That doesn't excuse the slow federal response.

[Albion]

ise, the HEADQUARTERS for the LA National Guard is IN NEW ORLEANS. It's also in St. Bernard's Parish & is currently flooded (8 feet, so not *terribly*, but FLOODED nonetheless). Now, WHY they didn't move the HQ to Baton Rouge or another city - no one's sure. Those living at Jackson Barracks evacuated THEIR families to Ft. Beauregard, which is in the middle of the state. As of Thursday, the LA National Guard had STILL not been in touch with the NGB. Despite all the money thrown into money for infrastructure post-9/11, the Command Post still needs ELECTRICITY and TELEPHONE LINES to function.

There have been "turf battles" going on between the office of Homeland Security, DoD, etc. One of the NGB lawyers was telling Lt. Gen. Blum on Friday "Well, the guard can only do x, y, and z due to Titles 10 and 32 ..." Blum finally turned to the lawyer & basically told him to sit down and shut up and that he didn't even want to HEAR the word Title 10 or 32 for the next 3 days. There are a lot of issues with use of the National Guard beyond "The Governor of a state just calls them up."

YES, the National Guard F'D UP. They were not the ONLY ones who screwed up. A LOT of people and agencies share the blame for allowing the situation to get to this level.

[mairzeadoats]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">still do not see how this justifies stealing microwaves and tvs......please explain theories. I'm all for busting up some windows for food and needed supplies. And does anyone have any excuses for the rapes that have been reported????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no justification or excuse, any more than there is a justification or excuse for psychosis. But in this situation there is a *REASON* and until you have worn their shoes for a while, to blame their insanity on anything other than the mess they're in is like, say, blaming a starved and abandoned dog for reverting to pack mentality and attacking smaller dogs.

Their desperation and sense of powerlessness in this very extreme circumstance is coming out as aggression. Others will cry and despair. Others will simply lie down and die.

The bottom line is that regardless of your income level, we all have the potential to go nuts in that kind of extreme circumstance. Just because you've never met your tipping point doesn't mean you don't have one.

And on the subject of justification and excuses, what is the justification or excuse for these poor people to have been essentially led into a trap and abandoned to die? By the very people who are very well paid to prepare for these emergencies, no less. Lord knows they've been handing out excuses one after another.

That well-heeled, insulated, oh so very important group of people is essentially now responsible for thousands...possibly over 10,000...deaths. They were paid to protect, and with the amount of notice they were given, they have no excuse NONE for the massive failure we are witnessing.

[mairzeadoats]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">LACK OF LEADERSHIP WAS THE FAILURE HERE. Not at the Presidential level. Some of you just want to BUSH BASH - lets look at facts not opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but wrong. This situation is well beyond the jurisdiction of a single mayor. It was and remains a federal state of emergency, and it was a likely catastrophe that FEMA had been warned about for years and was supposed to have plans for.

The problems with NO in particular are due in large part, but not 100%, to decades of bipartisan, wrongheaded planning to straighten out the Missouri River for the benefit of easier oil deliveries. That screw job with mother nature has been destroying the gulf coast for years, and is what put NO below sea level.

And then very early on in his tenure, *Bush* specifically allowed development of the remaining wetlands that *used* to protect the coast from hurricanes. And, btw, that development *also* sank NO an additional 3 feet. Bush simultaneously drastically cut Army Corp of Engineering budget to shore up the levies, re-directing the money to homeland security. That is 110% on Bush's plate...it is Bush's wrongheaded environmental policies, big-business over people, and unlikely terrorism over highly likely hurricanes.

And now on Bush's plate is the failure of his Dept of Homeland Security and their underling, FEMA, to respond appropriately and quickly to warnings, both in terms of emergency planning and in terms of the budding emergency that COTHers recognised even before last Saturday. BTW, I also read today that FEMA delivered their emergency medical kits -- which contained antibiotics such as CIPRO.... The kits were totally geared toward a terrorist attack instead of a hurricane. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Also on Bush's plate is the need for National Guard to be called in from othe parts of the country because he send a large portion of Louisiana's to Iraq to do the job of the military.

Also on Bush's plate is waiting so long to call in the National Guard, instead of bringing them, plus food & water, in *advance* of the hurricane.

Also on Bush's plate is *TURNING DOWN OFFERS OF AID* from over 70 countries. I wondered why we weren't hearing from other countries. Then finally, yesterday, found a tiny article. Over 70 countries offered aid and were turned away. It wasn't until Friday that Bush finally, grudgingly, accepted that we need help. His quote was, "Well, I don't expect they'll give much. Because we didn't ask for it. And we'll take care of our own." It took Condi Rice to spin that disastrous statement away.

There's an interesting article in a London paper -- the jist of it is that last year when a planner tried to present the effects and needs of just the scenario we are now witnessing, he was LAUGHED AT by the feds for suggesting that there'd be need to erect tent cities. "Americans don't live in tents" was their response. Well, I wonder if those bonehead bureaucrats are laughing now?

[Albion]

mairze, while I agree with most of your points, the President doesn't call the Guard in, the governors of individual states do. There is no doubting that the federal response could have been MUCH quicker and more well-managed, but the job of calling up the guard falls to to the states.

I still think they should've sent the regular Army in sooner. I can't WAIT to read the after-action reports of this whole mess. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[The Fjord Jockey]

Albion I think maybe you misunderstood what I meant when I said race isn't an issue. What I am referring to is on a higher level, i.e., Bush didn't delay sending in help because these people are black, as many people (Jesse Jackson, Kanye West, etc) would like to think.

I am by NO MEANS racist, but I'm REALLY fed up with a lot of blacks who would like to blame their life miseries on racial discrimination. They expect to sit there and have everything handed to them because their mommas and daddies was slaves, and now it's all someone else's fault because they are suffering. Somehow because they are descended from slaves, they are suffering more than a white person would be suffering.

And sorry, but I'm sick of the debate about the freaking "looting" vs "finding" photo. It was ONE PHOTO, but the blacks who love to holler, "I'M BEING REPRESSED!" are just loving it.

Once again, I emphasize: THIS IS CERTAINLY NOT ALL BLACKS. Many of my friends are black, and I love them to death, and can honestly say there have been more than a few times when I'm almost embarressed to be white. It's just a shame that it only takes a few bad apples. Or in this case, a few hundred....or thousand......

[Albion]

Ah, I thought you meant in terms of the tensions etc. that were going on. I think the delay was due to piss poor management and planning on a local AND national level. It just happened that those left behind for whatever reason happened to be the poorest residents of the city - which in NO means they were mostly black. I think a lot of negative response from the people in NO right now IS colored by the tensions that have been in the city long before the hurricane hit. Honestly, I'd probably be suspicious to if I was living in a culture of racism and fear directed at me. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

I don't think dragging race into the problems of getting food & water and getting people OUT of deplorable conditions helps anything, like I said earlier. I wouldn't find the situation any less or more awful if the convention center had been filled with white people. It sucks all around, no matter what color you are.

[EqTrainer]

I was in France for 9/11 and let me tell you, those people wanted desperately to help us. There were American flags hung everywhere, people would hear me speaking english to my son and would hug me and cry. This was coming from the FRENCH, not exactly notorious for loving Americans...

now we are being asked by our relatives there, why is America turning down aid when we clearly and desperately need it in New Orleans? See, they are assuming that it is a disaster because we need help.. not because we have dropped the ball. To have our president act like such an a**, AGAIN, turning down offers of help that YES we clearly DO need... I just am beside myself. We have been offered money, oil, medical assistance, ALL of which those people need and our president is a pompous A** whose arrogance is chilling. I guess since his life has not been affected he feels he can turn that aid down for those people in New Orleans? Oh pardon me, his vacation DID get interrupted... poor George.

[monstrpony]

Had a chat with my feed store man this afternoon, he made the point that, because many of the people being evacuated to Texas have little to go back to, they may end up staying in Texas--alas, many for the same reasons they couldn't leave NO in the first place. Yes, Texas has taken on a great deal in providing this level of help. I think it's is true that Houston may be permanently changed by their effort.

On the other hand, they will always be the ones who can say "we pitched in, we were successful, we got the job done".

As others have said, Thank You, Texas!

[CTT]

I’m not going to get into the political aspect of this whole disaster. I spent the past 4 days locating family and friends for my friends and I. As the days pass I have made numerous runs to Houston, Dallas and even 2 dozen runs to the other side of San Antonio to help locate these various people. I have family members of distant relations who lived near the levy that broke and they were on their roof as of yesterday waiting while the water still was rising on their roofs. Choppers were rescuing off other roofs but what kept them from being rescued was the fact they had no children. It doesn’t matter the race of people cause my family is white and they still had no form of rescue. My cousins husband swam to find a boat to help rescue them. My cousin herself is a diabetic and as of right now she is doing as good as we can hope. I have 6 people living in my home and we have beds setup all over the place and even the floors have air mattresses on them. I have no idea as to when they will leave but right now they have a home to be able to sleep and have a meal. All of them have lost EVERYTHING! They have nothing to go back to.

I have other members of my cousins family flying in and driving in from various states to reunite together but one thing we have decided is we as a family need to create a chain of contact for emergency reasons. My cousin Jennifer listed a missing post at the Gulf Coast News site and as soon as that posted we had a means to make contact. We are in the midst of developing a family site for us so that we can list contact information and also medical issues incase down the road this happens in some other part of our nation. It will allow us to have adequate concepts of the housing area, who lives where and what might need a emergency evacuation. The site is for all of us who are connected and not limited to just our family. It also will allow us to know who lives where and if another hurricane hits we know of a safe location to evacuate to.

My point to this is that we must rely on our family and friends, creating a means of contact that allows all of us to remain in contact if something should happen to any one of us. This should also teach us that anything can happen to any one of us and if something should happen, to create a backup plan. I have friends all over the world who when they hear Texas in disaster situations they know how to contact me and how to get in contact with other people who they know will be in contact with me and it goes the same way for them.

The situation was horrible and I have nothing good to say about any of the rescue process but I will say that we need to look around ourselves and thank god we have what we have and plan for that “what if”.

[JER]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am by NO MEANS racist, but I'm REALLY fed up with a lot of blacks who would like to blame their life miseries on racial discrimination. They expect to sit there and have everything handed to them because their mommas and daddies was slaves, and now it's all someone else's fault because they are suffering. Somehow because they are descended from slaves, they are suffering more than a white person would be suffering. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This doesn't apply to New Orleans and the state of Louisiana.

Before the Civil War, Louisiana had a elite class of blacks as well as whites. In fact, New Orleans's population included almost as many free blacks as whites and free blacks outnumbered slaves in the city. Blacks as well as whites could own slaves so slave-owning wasn't the sole provenance of white people.

It wasn't just about black or white. Louisiana was an unusual melting pot. Creoles could be black or white or both or mixed with Native American blood too.

When the Civil War started, several thousand free blacks joined the Confederate side of the fighting. This group -- the Louisiana Native Guards -- later switched to the Union cause and were the first black unit sworn in to the US Army. Within a few years, most of the US Army's black officers were from Louisiana.

My point is, Louisiana/New Orleans history, especially its early history of diversity and tolerance, doesn't support your generalization. So perhaps you're not racist, but you might think about reading a history book or two before making such statements.

[mairzeadoats]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Albion:
mairze, while I agree with most of your points, the President doesn't call the Guard in, the governors of individual states do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then I'll revise that one portion of my statement to say that I blame the governer for not calling in what state guard isn't in Iraq ahead of the hurricane. And blame Bush for not calling in the regular army that is *finally* shipping in from the rest of the country sooner.

And I want to add that while I realize it doesn't help to sit around blaming, I believe it *is* important to do a "post mortem," to learn from the experience in order to identify and fix the problems and prevent future mistakes and missteps.

I hate to remind people of this, but we're only at the *beginning* of the hurricane season. Maybe we'll get lucky and this one will be it for the year, but based on forecasts that said this will be a very active season, there could be more coming this month.

I'm praying for everybody's families and animals, and I'm also thinking of how to prepare myself for the nearterm and longterm future.

Government plans "for the people" are a fiasco. This is a nonpartisan statement...20 years ago PBS did a program on what would happen if a nuclear bomb hit Boston, with 30 minutes notice. Living in the region, we immediately knew the government's evacuation plan was a joke...they hadn't even bothered to notify the NH towns that hordes of people would be coming, probably because they knew everybody would die in gridlock, caught in the firestorm except those who chose to drive *into* Boston to be vaporised.

[mroades]

Wasn't this thread about the dogs. etc being left behind. Did any of you see on ABC News this morning the man who has been trapped in his house for 6 days because he wouldnt leave his dog?!?! I was bawling as the ABC news crew rescued him and the dog on their boat so the Coast Guard folks could get to him. Now I am watching the marine animals finding new homes. Gosh darn this is so hard to watch every day, but I love the happy endings.....(however few and far between they are.

[ise@ssl]

There is no shortage of National Guard units - I'm not sure what CNN mouth you heard that from but it's not true. Makes for a good lead in though. And why can't people get it straight the PRESIDENT doesn't orderup National Guard units until the GOVERNORS have or indicate they need more.

I'm not far from NYC and when 9/11 happened you didn't see NYC police deserting to go check on their families even though EVERYONE IN THE REGION was terrified that more acts of terrorism would occur. The difference in this instance was LEADERSHIP right there in the city and the Governor of NY stepped right in behind Rudi Giuliani - they may not have had a complete plan but by God they put one together quickly. I was here on my farm alone - my husband was in CO - I couldn't even call my neighbors but the reporting we did watch on TV and the IMMEDIATE control that the Mayor and Governor took was what kept people on focus. The only action that Feds took immediately was to close the air space in the entire country - they didn't march federal troops in immediately.

Men and women from our area went immediately to help from all of our fire and rescue and don't talk to me about communication. We had no phones either. Cell phones would only work to call out of the region for days.

And PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeease - let's not lay any blame for what the Federal Government does or does not facilitate with respect to OIL. The PRESIDENT doesn't create the DEMAND - we do - so get off your high horses about this concept. Or STOP DRIVING YOU CAR (OR TRUCK W/TRAILER), PUT IN SOLAR or windmills and give up many products that are made with petro chemical biproducts. How ignorant. To anyone who posts these allegations - how OIL FREE is your life? You are on your computer which runs on electricity - how the He** do you think that is generated??

Every city has indigent poor. New Orleans CLEARLY had no plan of evacuation for these people - HOUSTON DID. Both sit in the path of hurricanes - what was the difference?? LEADERSHIP - not money - Houston's economy isn't exactly booming.

And cities have to get their heads out of their BUTTS and stop allowing people to build housing in areas that are not safe and allow them to be built with inadequate building designs and materials.

I thought the language of the Mayor of NO was a disgrace. His anger didn't change things - he just looked like an Ass. Look up the statistics and the DOCUMENTARIES on the corruption in NO and it's police department - this is nothing new. Well when you allow this to happen and thrive - when the proverbial SH** hits the fan - the last thing they do is CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO NEED HELP. They cut and run and they did.

AND AGAIN - Marziedots - the PRESIDENT cannot send military into states into states until the states REQUEST IT. Take some US Government courses and look at the LAWS. Several posts on here have CLARIFIED THAT OVER AND OVER AGAIN. And your comment about the US turning down aide from foreign countries is another CNN crapline - read some current newspapers ...credible newspapers and GET THE FACTS AND STOP REGURGITATING RUMORS. Secretary Rice reported the US was accepting aide from other countries and it's on it's way so don't be apart of the "chicken little" reporting system. The sky is not falling.

And ERin I have EVERY confidence in the federal government as long as the levels of government in the states, cities and below have their emergency management plans in place. As I stated above contrasts Houston to New Orleans - same industry (oil), just as many poor (actually I think Houston has more illegals) and HOUSTON HAD A PLAN and New Orleans DID NOT.

And with respect to New Orleans and the levees - WHY WAS THERE NO CONTINGENCY PLAN FOR EVACUATIONS IF ANY LEVEE FAILED FOR ANY REASON?? That is not the Federal Government's job and if they had gone in to tell NO or LA - we are going to set up this plan - I'm sure that crazed NO Mayor and the pathetic LA Governor would have sent them packing - saying - this is our soverign city/state we will handle it. THEY DIDN'T.

[runspotrun]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:
I thought the language of the Mayor of NO was a disgrace. His anger didn't change things - he just looked like an Ass. Look up the statistics and the DOCUMENTARIES on the corruption in NO and it's police department - this is nothing new. Well when you allow this to happen and thrive - when the proverbial SH** hits the fan - the last thing they do is CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO NEED HELP. They cut and run and they did. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think its pretty foolish of you to be criticizing the actions of a person who's home was literally just ripped apart. Hundreds of his constituants are dead, and it took FIVE DAYS for the government to appropriate aid money. Those were five days when people were dying.

[Cartier]

Don’t know how to get this out and it may be to late for Katrina victims but here is a last ditch option you dog owners might want to know about.

We were at dinner last night with a couple… they are breeders of many years with some considerable experience. Over the past 20 plus years these people had sold a few dogs to a lady who lived in New Orleans. In the aftermath of Katrina, the lady evacuated to the Hyatt with her dog… but refused to be rescued for fear of having to leave the dog behind. The couple (husband is an attorney) were able to contact the woman… told her to tell the rescue workers the dog is a Seizure Alert Dog. The woman did and she and the dog got out.

The American with Disabilities Act mandates that Seizure Alert Dogs stay with the owner, and (under the ADA) officials are not even allowed to ask for verification that the dog is a Seizure Alert Dog. Over the years this couple had used the ADA to take their German Shepard on airline flights with them… as a Seizure Alert dog.

Seizure Alert dogs come in all shapes and sizes… it is their particular sensitivity to the owner that is critical. So no official could truly dispute the claim. Now obviously this won’t work if the owner was tentative… or had some raging uncontrollable monster at the end of a leash… but IF claiming this falsehood makes the difference between saving your dog or loosing him/her… it is worth trying.

[Galloway]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by runspotrun:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:
I thought the language of the Mayor of NO was a disgrace. His anger didn't change things - he just looked like an Ass. Look up the statistics and the DOCUMENTARIES on the corruption in NO and it's police department - this is nothing new. Well when you allow this to happen and thrive - when the proverbial SH** hits the fan - the last thing they do is CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO NEED HELP. They cut and run and they did. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think its pretty foolish of you to be criticizing the actions of a person who's home was literally just ripped apart. Hundreds of his constituants are dead, and it took FIVE DAYS for the government to appropriate aid money. Those were five days when people were dying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Isn't that the point? Hundreds of his constituents dead and where the hell was the mayor?
Thousands of constituents were dead in NY and Rudi was down on the street, a very VISIBLE and active presence among his constituents...the people who put him in office.
He didn't hi-tail it to NJ and rage uselessly to reporters.

Frankly, I'm embarrassed by the way just about everyone has acted, from Bush down to the people looting and shooting at rescuers.

and all the while people in real need going unaided, dying in the streets.

Yay, USA. Way to show the rest of the world our truly truly horrid side.

[Albion]

Ilona, the LA Governor had been BEGGING Bush to send in the 82nd. Some of his advisors have been trying to talk her out of that. So get off your high horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Please tell me how a governor asking to turn the area over to the feds doesn't count as "asking for help."

The NG is running at leat 30% below normal in terms of supplies (like humvees) - they go overseas with it & it DOES NOT come home with them. Blum has been trying to express that.

[ise@ssl]

Albion we must in parallel universes - I've watched that pathetic Governor from Lousiana - the one with the shaky voice, no leadership and NO CONFIDENCE from last Sunday night and TOTALLY disagree with your representations on what she asked for and when. I've read qualified sources and emailed people IN and heard from people IN Louisiana.

Her attitude now is A GREAT BIG C.Y.A. - she should resign. And I stand behind my comments about the Mayor of New Orleans. He's a disgrace.

And let's contrast him to Rudi Giuliani and Gov BLANKO to Gov Pataki..........New Orleans and Louisiana KNEW THE STORM WAS COMING. New York and the entire REGION 9/11 impacted DID NOT.

When you have so much of your city below sea level - why couldn't they have inflatable boats with battery powered pumps in each and every single fire house, rescue squad and police department in each precinct. This could have helped remove people safely and expeditiously INCLUDING THEIR DOGS. This isn't some million dollar concept to put in place but obviously NO LEADERSHIP - NO SOLUTIONS. And from what I'm seeing those officials might have just inflated the boats and left themselves.

Edit: I'm adding schools and churches to this list of places that could have and should have had inflatable boats. Neighbor hood drills to let people know where the closest one located are easy to set up. DOES THE WORD 'PLAN' ring a bell?

And why with all this ranting and blaming by the Mayor did he send in buses to one of the major hotels to get tourists to the airport while HIS residents were dying at other locations???

There are 46 states besides TEXAS that were not affected by the Hurricane - GET ON THE PHONE, SEND AN EMAIL, FAX A LETTER TO YOUR GOVERNOR OF YOUR STATE. Each one should accept a percentage of the refugees IMMEDIATELY. If you have time to post on here - you have time to go on line and write to your state's elected officials. You are all worried about the dogs - well if you don't find permanent homes for these regugees with dogs - the crisis doesn't end.

[The Fjord Jockey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JER:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am by NO MEANS racist, but I'm REALLY fed up with a lot of blacks who would like to blame their life miseries on racial discrimination. They expect to sit there and have everything handed to them because their mommas and daddies was slaves, and now it's all someone else's fault because they are suffering. Somehow because they are descended from slaves, they are suffering more than a white person would be suffering. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This doesn't apply to New Orleans and the state of Louisiana.

Before the Civil War, Louisiana had a elite class of blacks as well as whites. In fact, New Orleans's population included almost as many free blacks as whites and free blacks outnumbered slaves in the city. Blacks as well as whites could own slaves so slave-owning wasn't the sole provenance of white people.

It wasn't just about black or white. Louisiana was an unusual melting pot. Creoles could be black or white or both or mixed with Native American blood too.

When the Civil War started, several thousand free blacks joined the Confederate side of the fighting. This group -- the Louisiana Native Guards -- later switched to the Union cause and were the first black unit sworn in to the US Army. Within a few years, most of the US Army's black officers were from Louisiana.

My point is, Louisiana/New Orleans history, especially its early history of diversity and tolerance, doesn't support your generalization. So perhaps you're not racist, but you might think about reading a history book or two before making such statements. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't need to read a book or two to know what Jesse Jackson and numerous other black leaders have been saying (note: I didn't say NO blacks. I am referring to the blacks who are making the suffering a racial issue). But thanks for the advice. You might think about reading my post a little better before making such statements and giving me a history lesson.

[The Fjord Jockey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:
And I stand behind my comments about the Mayor of New Orleans. He's a disgrace.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You ain't kiddin'.

[ise@ssl]

For those who said people had no transportation available to evacuate. Check out http://www.drudgereport.com - look at the photo off all the school buses and the reference to the City of New Orleans emergency plan.

Begs the question why these buses were still there when the levees failed. They should have been full of people and their pets outside of New Orleans - NOT underwater.

[sleepdeprived]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:
...I'm not far from NYC and when 9/11 happened you didn't see NYC police deserting to go check on their families even though EVERYONE IN THE REGION was terrified that more acts of terrorism would occur. The difference in this instance was LEADERSHIP right there in the city and the Governor of NY stepped right in behind Rudi Giuliani - they may not have had a complete plan but by God they put one together quickly. I was here on my farm alone - my husband was in CO - I couldn't even call my neighbors but the reporting we did watch on TV and the IMMEDIATE control that the Mayor and Governor took was what kept people on focus. The only action that Feds took immediately was to close the air space in the entire country - they didn't march federal troops in immediately.

Men and women from our area went immediately to help from all of our fire and rescue and don't talk to me about communication. We had no phones either. Cell phones would only work to call out of the region for days. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Ise, we agree on one thing. Giuliani did take over and created the plan on the spot. Why? Because FEMA and the military didn't know what the f--k to do. I happened to be there for several days immediately following so have some first hand experience. Of course, Bush was quick to step in, grab the bullhorn (dressed in fatigues no less) and accept the applause and credit but they had nothing to do with the recovery efforts.

I see no point in criticizing the mayor of NO at this point. It was a completely different set of circumstances but what is similar is the lack of response from FEMA and the military. You can't convince me that if this had happened in Kennebunkport the response would not have been different.

OH and btw, the police were not exactly happy campers at Ground Zero. And their families were not in danger of drowning or losing their homes. The city government was not destroyed and they knew they would get paid.

[ise@ssl]

Oh please - if you don't have any grip on how important it is for the President - ANY PRESIDENT - to show up at any location that has a disaster - you must be clueless. For the people I know who WERE at ground zero for days -police/fire and my friends who lost familiy members - it WAS SO IMPORTANT TO THEM.

And it was to me as well - You might feel differently - your choice. When Bush went out and threw the ball at the baseball game I was torn between terror that something would go wrong and exhiliration the he was going out there to say - "we won't run and hide".

You can citique Bush for what he wore- -but then you'd have to go back and do the same for every past President at every other terrible situation. Wearing something that connects to the people on site - is a symbol - not a photo op. And if you were dressing him - what would you have chosen?

And I'm not defending FEMA - but if you were in NYC you certainly KNOW the levels this hit physically, emotionally and mentally was something that the USA had never faced in peacetime.

[sleepdeprived]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:
You can citique Bush for what he wore- -but then you'd have to go back and do the same for every past President at every other terrible situation. Wearing something that connects to the people on site - is a symbol - not a photo op. And if you were dressing him - what would you have chosen? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess when they grounded the rescue helicopters yesterday from gathering people from rooftops and had the Coast Guard line up to the right of Bush when he was speaking in NO yesterday that was not a photo op either? When they trucked in hay bales to his cattle-less ranch and lined them up in a field before the press arrived, that was not a photo op? I really have to change my way of thinking.

[findeight]

I have had several survivors of New Orleans on the plane in the last few days and, if anything, their stories are worse then what the news is portraying.

One elderly couple had been found by their son in Baton Rouge on Friday and he was moving them northeast to join his family. This 80 year old man and his 78 year old wife were native, cajun descent New Orleans residents living in the same home for over 50 years. They stayed because they didn't watch TV or listen to the radio and nobody told them of the mandatory evacuation.
Their home stayed dry but with no resources or utilities, they walked out on Thursday...the old guy half dragging his wife, who was half paralysed from an earlier stroke. Had to cross waist deep water and push dead bodies out of the way. They had to leave their pets in favor of saving themselves and it haunts them both but....awfully simplistic to sit high and dry and claim you'd never do exactly the same thing when the choice to stay is death.

Somebody in a tow truck picked them up and delivered them to a Catholic church in Baton Rouge. The church ran the contact for them to their son.
Also have had several nuns aboard working to relocate seniors in nearly identical circumstances.

I'm no way a Catholic but, least from what I'm seeing, they got their stuff together before our behemoth beaurocracy could get off their collective asses.

I'd just like to know where they found those two, clean gals to pose with Dubya in the midst of all the squalor.......... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Albion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I've read qualified sources and emailed people IN and heard from people IN Louisiana.

Her attitude now is A GREAT BIG C.Y.A. - she should resign. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoop de freakin do, so has my family - and, oh yeah, my mom has been running her tail off with everything going on at the NGB up here for the past week, if we're going to get into a pissing match over qualified sources http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif - is the press calling to talk to YOU? As I said before, the woman is obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed & the only reason she won the election is the guy she was running against was a minority.

However, YOU have been screaming that "The president can't send military in without a request," and I was pointing out that she HAD made a request. I have NEVER said that she handled this mess well - NOBODY HAS. Apparently YOU are the one living in an alternate universe.

[ProzacPuppy]

I's just like to offer a big round of applause for the Governor Perry of Texas. He stepped in, made decisions and got things rolling when Louisiana's administration was still panicking around like Chicken Little. And Mayor White in Houston has also been making some tough decisions to keep rescue efforts moving. While not everyone is happy with all the things he has chosen to do (cancelling all activities in various venues has many people pretty angry and means a big loss of revenue to the city),at least he is taking action. (Of course if the Dome and Reliant center are still unusable in February when it is Rodeo time, he may be lynched http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

The only residents of NO that I place full and total blame on are the thugs who seemed to take this opportunity to act out turf wars. Their activities (firing upon evac copters, natl guard and bubbas in bass boats) resulted in the deaths of many due to postponing rescue.

I think the situation at Gate D Armstrong Airport is deplorable. Lying there dying, surrounded by the dead and dying is criminal. Thankfully at least there are a few nurses and priests/reverends there so they won't die alone.

It seems that there are many people who would not abandon their pets. Houston is now having the problem of trying to locate family sized apartments that will allow pets (and sometimes multiple pets).

Also, a big thumbs up to the governor of Michigan who offered to take in 10,000 evacuees if they can figure out how to get them there. I can just picture those lifelong cajuns waking up to a wintery Michigan morning http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

I actually feel the saddest when I see the elderly evacuees clutching to what little possessions they got out with and looking dazed. There was an elderly woman in flowered skirt, sweater and pearls clutching her purse, the old man in the wheelchair refuses to speak or let go of a lifejacket. City government, parish government or state government owed them more.

And I also questioned why they didn't appropriate the cities fleet of school buses to move people to Lafayette or Baton Rouge earlier in the week.

And strangely enough, I can't help wondering where the heck all the alligators are? After Allison we had alligators showing up in every pond and bayou in the city and Houston is not known for its gator population, whereas LA is.

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by findeight:
...awfully simplistic to sit high and dry and claim you'd never do exactly the same thing when the choice to stay is death. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Awfully simplistic to claim that we WOULD do the same thing! We can argue this til we're blue in the face, but the FACT is I would NEVER leave my dog behind. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[ise@ssl]

Well said Prozacpuppy -

There are reports that not only gators but poisonous snakes ARE in the water. I'm sure they will begin to surface when the pump down starts.

And I agree - WAY TO GO TEXAS - BIG STATE - BIG HEARTS!!!!!!! WE LOVE YOU ALL FOR STEPPING UP TO THE PLATE WHEN OTHERS FAILED TO DO SO.

Gee Queasy - maybe it was nice to have the Coast Guard get some much needed attention for all of their good work. And Bush might not have cattle at his ranch but by Golly - it's all solar!!! On the other hand we have the Kennedy's fighting the windmills off of Nantucket - it would ruin their view - but it would provide all the electric for all of Cape Cod. We could go tit for tat on this - but what's the point.

The PRESIDENT is not the MAYOR OF NEW ORLEANS and not the GOVERNOR OF LA. And BONUS HERE - the Governer grew up in New Orleans - her father was the Mayor - so she isn't exactly unfamiliar with the issues or problems. She needs to step down.

[incentive]

There is certainly enough blame to go around. And I DID think the 2 women shown with Georgie looked terribley clean, fresh, and attractive---just as I thought it "amazing" that the first NG convoy bringing suppilies to the Superdome were shown arriving while Georgie was in NO.

Leadership has been dreadfully lacking on ALL levels. Were is Rudy Giuliana? He certainly seemed to be able to take charge and get things done!!!

Am I the only one who thinks that coverage has been biased? I certainly can't sit at the tv and watch every moment, but there seems to be VERY little coverage of what is happening to the animals. Yes, what is happening to the hurricane victims is awful beyond words, but the animals are victims too. At least during Larry King's show last night on CNN, animal groups were included in the crawl at the bottom of the screen as choices to receive donations. If you don't slap the general population in the face with something, as in yes the animals need help too, the vast majority of people don't respond.

A HUGE THANK YOU TO THE LEADERS AND PEOPLE OF TEXAS AND OTHER STATES WHO ARE STEPPING UP TO HELP PEOPLE AND ANIMALS.

[weeble]

I'm prepared to be ripped a new one for this, but here goes...

First, politics is politics. There's not a politician that doesn't end up with photo ops, that's why they have "handlers" and that's across party lines. (Anyone remember an very uncomfortable looking John Kerry in the country store buying a hunting license?) Does it make it right, no, especially now, but as long as politicians have their "people", it's a done deal.

Second, it seems that the discussion of a boy and his dog had dissolved into a "which side of the aisle do you line up on" slugfest. Events such as Katrina bring out failings in every aspect of our society, from individuals such as the looters (and I don't mean the ones taking things so they can survive) to goverment behemoths whether they be city, state, or federal. This is a huge problem right now, but I just can't see it as a problem of who we all voted for in the last election.

I know emotions are high, mine as well, but by ripping into each other, what do we accomplish? There will be dissection of this response, or lack of it, for years to come, and while I know we all need to discuss, vent, and try to come up with solutions, it seems we should be able to do it with less venom.

One of my relatives lost his house and everything he had in Biloxi. He and his wife are in a Red Roof Inn while he makes arrangements for relocating. We asked them to come here, they chose not to. He says the kindness shown them and help offered them has been phenomenal, from very young children offering them a sandwich to the National Guard. Many of us know someone touched by this, let's try not to make the wounds worse than they are. We don't have to put our heads in the sand, just have a little respect for other opinions.

[ise@ssl]

Again - write, call, fax, email your Governors - urging you state to get involved and either help by relocating families or organizing a State adopt a Neighborhood program to get these people back in homes and back on their feet. If every state steps forward - this can happen.

[coco]

As reported in the Army Times:\

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1077495.php

[Erin]

Texas has been doing a great job... but let's remember, the hurricane didn't hit THEM. Their infrastructure and communications are intact. Their houses haven't floated away. They aren't worried about friends and family members who could have washed into the Gulf by now, for all they know. They SHOULD be doing a good job.

But let's also remember that even the Texans messed up by overestimating how many people they could fit into the Astrodome... the first night, they turned away several buses of evacuees and sent them another 3 or 4 hours onto San Antonio or someplace. So they ain't perfect either.

I read somewhere that the city of NO did try to organize transportation out of town for those who didn't have the means to transport themselves... now, maybe that wasn't well-publicized enough, or maybe people simply didn't take up on the offer. But, obviously, once the city was underwater, the evacuation was beyond the scope of NO's resources.

BTW, there was some looting around the WTC after 9/11... and it was within the secure perimeter, so it wasn't random thugs. It was the police. So, again, nobody's perfect.

Oh, and for anyone who thinks that it's just the Bush-bashers who are upset... did you see the Hannity and Colmes show on Fox (aka The We Love Bush Network) on Thursday, I think? The reporters on the ground for Fox were as furious as the rest of the "media elite." There's actually a link to a video clip here (http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/02.html#a4763) and it's worth watching for the look of complete disgust on Shephard Smith's face, and he deserves kudos for not letting Hannity spin the situation -- the situation was disgraceful and Smith made sure that viewers knew that. Plus, it made Geraldo Rivera cry. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I heard on the local news just now that the buses that were sent from DC to pick up 400 evacuees and bring them back to stay at the DC Armory might be sent back empty. The disorganization persists...

[coco]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin

I heard on the local news just now that the buses that were sent from DC to pick up 400 evacuees and bring them back to stay at the DC Armory might be sent back empty. The disorganization persists... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe they should just hi-jack a bus like these guys did http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif :

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/topstory2/3334317

[Erin]

Well, THERE'S some initiative! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[talloaks]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I heard on the local news just now that the buses that were sent from DC to pick up 400 evacuees and bring them back to stay at the DC Armory might be sent back empty. The disorganization persists... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Think perhaps the evacuees didn't want to come to DC??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Erin]

To get back to the original topic a bit... MSNBC has some footage of a helicopter rescue today where two young men were picked up off a roof, and there was a little dog running around on the roof wagging his tail as the rescue basket was lowered. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm glad so many people WERE able to get out with their pets... and my heart goes out to the ones who didn't...

[Erin]

OK, how come none of MY cats would do this? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://www.wonkette.com/images/patches%20made%20us%20cry-1.jpg

Here's an earlier photo of them:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-ka...me-headlines&index=2 (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-katrina29aug29_pg,0,6625256.photogallery?coll=la-home-headlines&amp;index=2)

[Jo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erin:
Texas has been doing a great job... but let's remember, the hurricane didn't hit THEM. Their infrastructure and communications are intact. Their houses haven't floated away. They aren't worried about friends and family members who could have washed into the Gulf by now, for all they know. They SHOULD be doing a good job.

But let's also remember that even the Texans messed up by overestimating how many people they could fit into the Astrodome... the first night, they turned away several buses of evacuees and sent them another 3 or 4 hours onto San Antonio or someplace. So they ain't perfect either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And your state is doing what, exactly? Even if the # of people that could fit into the Astrodome was overestimated- we did NOT turn anyone away. Instead they were moved to different cities, where their children are enrolled in school without immunizations, transcripts, etc. and their families embraced by people of their new communities.

And even us Texans have family members, loved ones, friends, co-workers in the states that were directly hit by Katrina. Who's the say that we are not worried about them any less than everyone else, just because we weren't DIRECTLY hit by the hurricane? My step-sister just "found" one of her friends on the registry list onilne TODAY and we have been worried sick over our other relatives who are still without power, who are watching their homes for looters.

We may not be perfect - but Texas is doing a hell of a good - make that DAMN GREAT - job and I for one am PROUD TO BE A TEXAN.

[lilblackhorse]

cartier.... <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Seizure Alert dogs come in all shapes and sizes… it is their particular sensitivity to the owner that is critical. So no official could truly dispute the claim. Now obviously this won’t work if the owner was tentative… or had some raging uncontrollable monster at the end of a leash… but IF claiming this falsehood makes the difference between saving your dog or loosing him/her… it is worth tryin </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Am I the only one who is totally ooged out by this? I'm sorry, but lying to get your dog out---perhaps taking the place of someONE is so not acceptable. I find it despicable that an adult would take to lying about their dog being a service dog---of course it comes from an attorney---let's all skirt the law. Even if it impacts someone else---do you think the lab might take up some childs place on a bus or something because of that lie?

People---they are ANIMALS. I am not cold hearted in the least--- I love my dog, cat and horse as much as the next person. But we are talking about thousands and thousands of HUMANS here who have no food, water, shelter, etc. While I would be sickened to leave my animal, who am I to be so selfish to save mine perhaps at the expense of say and elderly person or a child?

I am sick and saddened beyond belief thinking about the dogs standing on roofs and such---a part of me feels more sorry for them because they don't understand. The humans at least knew about the storm, and possibly could have gotten away---but the poverty there is huge.

I think some of you need to put this disaster into perspective, because it's been really overlooked.That's my take....carry on.

[Duffy]

I wouldn't displace another human by taking a dog. I would be giving up my spot for another human by staying with my dog, if they didn't allow him to leave with me. This is assuming my kids are already safe...I do know I'd have a tough time making my daughter leave our pets behind.

[tbpalsx2]

Regarding the orginal purpose of this thread. I just read this from ASPCA info on the NOLA.COM. I will go back and find the link and post FYI. I hope this is true

Snowball found?



September 4, 2005 : 9:51 PM ET

LA SPCA reports that they may have found Snowball, as they evacuated animals from the Superdome Sunday. Sept. 5, 10 p.m. EST
The Louisiana SPCA may have rescued "Snowball," the now-famous little dog that a crying boy was forced to leave behind.

SPCA President Laura Maloney says they rescued a small, white terrier mix whom military officials told them they believed was Snowball, during evacuations Sunday from the Superdome.

"He is very cute, but he's got a little attitude," she reported of the terrier mix.

Of course, Maloney can't be sure of the dog's identity until the owner can be found -- and it is possible that the military officials were wrong.

But the SPCA did rescue between 30 and 40 dogs belonging to somebody from the Superdome Sunday. They plan to return Monday to search for more, as the inside of the Superdome got too dark to further explore.

Sunday night SPCA workers and volunteers were busy bathing the dogs taken from the Superdome.

Among the dogs rescued was a pit bull mix and her 11 newborn puppies. Although the puppies had been seperated from their mother by the military officials who put them inside the Superdome, they had somehow survived.

"Their mother was very happy to see them," Maloney reports.

A campaign had begun on the Internet to find "Snowball," after an AP report describing his painful, forced seperation from his young owner, as the boy boarded a bus to leave the Superdome area.

Stay tuned here, for more information on the Search for Snowball.

[tbpalsx2]

http://news.bestfriends.org

The link for an update on Snowball!

I have seen multple references on pet forums, rescue sites and Katrina humane society groups regading Snowball and the news report showing the boy and his dog being seperated. I think he is one dog everyone is searching for. I am praying for his little boy and all the other people who have suffered in this terrible diaster. Let's hope this is "Snowball" and his story is only the prelude to many other reunions of pets and their loved ones.

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jo:
We may not be perfect - but Texas is doing a hell of a good - make that DAMN GREAT - job and I for one am PROUD TO BE A TEXAN. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, Jo, did you miss the part where I said Texas was doing a great job?

My point was that even under the best of circumstances, Texas had a couple of missteps too. So to blame New Orleans and Louisiana for not being a paragon of organization while in the midst of a crisis -- which many people have been doing -- seems a little unreasonable.

[trailblazer]

I don't know, lilblackhorse, cartier's idea seemed like a good one to me. Would you be so critical of a mother who lied so that she didn't have to give up her baby? Babies take up room, too. Isn't it selfish to insist that an adult stay behind so that you can take someone along who has a YOUNGER mental age than a dog!?!? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I think I understand what you are saying, though, and I *do* feel it is wrong to do what cartier suggested if your dog is merely a pet to you. People do come first. But if you *honestly* view your dog as a person, I don't find it objectionable at all. Like I said earlier, I would be devastated to have to leave my horses behind. But in a life or death situation, I see how I could end up doing just that. But my dog? Never. I am sure a mother wouldn't enjoy saving her baby at the expense of someone else, but would she have any second thoughts? I doubt it. Likewise, I would choose my dog over a stranger in a heartbeat, and with no regrets. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[findeight]

Life and death choices suck when you actually have to make them.
Lets pray none of us ever does.

But remember you are not the only one in the situation and rescue workers may come in to save you when you refuse to go at great risk to their own lives.
Just today I heard about two elderly nuns who refused to evacuate because they did not want to leave their pets.
One sister's niece was crying on CNN about her aunt's refusal to leave and a parish priest and another nun plus rescue workers were going into the stinking water to try to get them out.

Not a solo decision unless you have absolutely nobody to left and hide from those helicopters as you starve to death with your pets.

Not trying to be harsh here. I once said I ignored hotel fire alarms as 99% are set off by kids or drunks. The person I said that to turned out to be a fireman who ponted out that he would be the one who risked his life to save mine when I had every chance to get out if it was a real alarm-which I would have no way of really knowing. That sure changed my thinking.

So, no I would not leave my pets if I had advance warning and could get us all out. BUT, looking death in the face???
Who knows.

I do know that I would chose a human life, even a stranger, if I had to chose between human and animal in a life saving situation.

[PMJ]

I'm probably just being unrealistic, but was anyone bothered by the fact for those who get to take their animals with them, they have to surrender them for adoption anyhow? So, the little boy wouldn't have been able to keep Snowball anyhow, which of course is no excuse for what happened and not even similar, but is it? He and his mom have gone through Hell and have nothing but each other and Snowball (the only part of his childhood his has left) and he has to give his beloved dog up. I can understand the reality of it, but it does boggle my mind because I cannot imagine loosing everything then having to give up my beloved pet.

[ise@ssl]

Good God Erin - Texas had a couple of mis-steps - you have to be embarassed by even writing something like this.

I apologize to all Texans on this board for that pathetic assessment. I guess sitting at your computer in a state that has so far not stepped forward to take an refugees makes it crystal clear what wasn't PERFECT.

Exactly who had the correct numbers of people they would deal with in the WORST NATURAL DISASTER TO HIT THE UNITED STATES Erin? And comparing the plan and effort of Texas to the NO PLAN - PATHETIC EFFORT of Louisiana and New Orleans isn't even logical thinking.

Even this morning the Texas Governor is asking for other states to step forward and take refugees. Has everyone urged their governors, and elected officials to get off their dead asses and put a plan in place to help.

The fact that SNOWBALL is fine is so insignificant to me - when I see those elderly people and children separated from their parents. God knows I live 24/7 for my horses, dogs, cats, bird and their well-being and comfort but SNOWBALL is well down the ladder of importance when hundreds of thousands of people are living on the edge right now.

What's sad is - people will probably send more money to a fund for SNOWBALL - than the Salvation Army or other relief agencies.

[bjrudq]

i hear ya ise@ie, but i think the snowball thing is of symbolic and psychological importance. if it gets people thinking about the disaster victims and maybe being a bit more generous then it's worth it imo. and the little things give people hope, so don't be too hard on the snowball advocates.

minnesopta is taking 3000 refugees at one of the bases. volunteers are being trained to assist them. normally the red cross takes weeks to train volunteers for disaster relief, but the folks i saw on tv are getting only a few intense days. there may be more refugees coming too. the churches in minnesota are very active in the relief effort.

i'm sure that officials and volunteers everywhere are doing a great service to these refugees; i'm sure there will be plenty of screw ups and mistakes and inconveniences too. that's life! hard to be patient when you've been separated from family, your pet is missing, you are hungry. hard to be patient when you see the suffering.

i admire the people who are taking time out from their routine, giving up their vacation time, and putting thenmselves in the midst of all this to try to make it better, whether they are helping people or animals.

[dkcbr]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but i think the snowball thing is of symbolic and psychological importance. if it gets people thinking about the disaster victims and maybe being a bit more generous then it's worth it imo. and the little things give people hope, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Jo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Good God Erin - Texas had a couple of mis-steps - you have to be embarassed by even writing something like this.

I apologize to all Texans on this board for that pathetic assessment. I guess sitting at your computer in a state that has so far not stepped forward to take an refugees makes it crystal clear what wasn't PERFECT.

Exactly who had the correct numbers of people they would deal with in the WORST NATURAL DISASTER TO HIT THE UNITED STATES Erin? And comparing the plan and effort of Texas to the NO PLAN - PATHETIC EFFORT of Louisiana and New Orleans isn't even logical thinking. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, ise!!! You said that much better than I did.

[Posting Trot]

I think Erin's point was that after a disaster strikes a particular region that region suffers from a number of logistical difficulties (loss of roads, communications, loss of personnel, etc.) that a region that has not been directly doesn't suffer.

So, to hold state and local officials (Louisiana and NO) solely responsible for the bad things that happened afterwards is somewhat misguided.

After a hurricane of that magnitude strikes, there is no way that local infrastructure can operate in a completely orderly way.

In theory, that's one of the reasons why we have a federal government. Disasters like this are too big for one city or one state to respond to.

It's great and heart-warming that Texas has taken in so many of the people most savagely hit by the hurricane.

It would have been greater if our federal government had had a more comprehensive plan and more competent people in place to help deal with the disaster as well.

JMHO.