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tidy rabbit
May. 29, 2010, 03:28 PM
Hunter Breeding! Horse gets LOOSE and runs around arena and gets 2nd PLACE WTF?

Please someone explain to me how this judging works?

Does it not matter at ALL that your horse is manageable?

I will say the horse that won, and won over all champion was VERY nice and was placed appropriately, but the one getting 2nd place whose handler was dropping the reins, yanking it's mouth, couldn't stand it up... really? SECOND?

As an aside, this was a OHJA show, not a USEF rated show.

rugbygirl
May. 29, 2010, 03:43 PM
Hunter Breeding can be a joke and a half.

4 horses entered the last class I did. One beefy, Impressive-type quarter horse (she "got to the show late" so they let her compete in the Hunter division), immaculately turned out for Western Halter and presented by a perfect sparkly Western Princess, 2 lackluster warmblood types with an array of conformation faults and nicely turned out, one plough type Clydesdale with a MASSIVE scar on her hind hock, whose handler didn't realize a hat was an important part of Hunter attire.

Placings:

1. Western Princess
2. Nicer looking warmblood
3. Clydesdale
4. Other warmblood.


:lol: Not too sure what the criteria was there. But me and the Clydesdale achieved our lifetime earnings ($12) in that class!

DMK
May. 29, 2010, 04:56 PM
LOL, obviously the phrase "lacks breed/discipline type" never occurred to the judge. I don't care if it is the best damn wheel horse the Busch family ever turned out, lacking type should put a horse behind horses that have type.

But there's HB and then there's open shows, and it's hard to compare the two. As for misbehavior on a HB class. it depends. The yearlings get more slack than the 3 year olds, the 2 year olds can be a pills and may be forgiven. If something legitimately spooks the baby, and most importantly if you as the judge really thought the poorly behaved horse was that much better, bottom line is type/quality/conformation suitable to type still counts a lot more than manners.

rugbygirl
May. 29, 2010, 06:16 PM
I don't care if it is the best damn wheel horse the Busch family ever turned out, lacking type should put a horse behind horses that have type.

:winkgrin: you didn't see the warmblood...my plough horse definitely had a more Hunter-y trot...:yes:

I don't envy those HB judges in my area...:D

ET's Home
May. 29, 2010, 07:01 PM
Maybe once the horse was loose, it really showed itself, like when at WB inspections the horses are let at liberty?

Many years ago I was assisting a Saddlebred breeder with his weanling in a futurity class (two handlers for them babies, both with whips :eek:). The filly had already won the class of 12, when next thing I knew she was loose from her halter and proudly trotting around the show ring with a huge presence. I couldn't figure out how such an experienced handler could let that baby get away. Turns out he 'allowed' her to get away with a too loose throatlatch. And got 3 offers for her when we came out of the ring...

fourmares
May. 29, 2010, 07:27 PM
Unlike conformation classes at breed shows, hunter breeding is not judged on manners. The hope is that you can get the baby to stand still long enough for the judge to get a look at them. If the baby that got loose had the second best conformation in the judges opinion then it gets second.

RugBug
May. 29, 2010, 07:41 PM
Maybe horse was trotting around all pretty and huntery-like while loose? :winkgrin:

Just kiddin. That sucks.

But more importantly, how did your boy behave? :)

S A McKee
May. 29, 2010, 07:49 PM
Two years ago I saw a two year old drop and roll in the BYH class. There were 8 in the class and the one that rolled (and got away from it's handler) won.
Pretty much a joke.

DMK
May. 29, 2010, 07:56 PM
well, a pretty hunter trot on a horse lacking type does not necessarily trump a bad trot on a horse that looks like it is built for the job. The theory in HB is along the lines of "how much do they LOOK the part?"

If your horse looks the part AND walks the walk, your horse should be a big hit in the conformation division, and if he doesn't look the part but still manages to have good style, a nice jump and a decent way of going, then you have ... everything else. But HB is still all about looking the part and not a lot else, which is fine if you keep it in perspective. ;)

Equibrit
May. 29, 2010, 07:59 PM
They don't judge inept handlers.

RugBug
May. 29, 2010, 08:01 PM
Nevermind...I now realize that post was directed elsewhere. :D

tidy rabbit
May. 29, 2010, 08:15 PM
My boy was great! :) He had peppermint Oil on his nose so he didn't notice the fillies on either side of him. Works great. He doesn't like peppermint so I didn't have to worry about him licking at it. My friend said she could smell it from the other side of the ring. LOL

He did canter after 3 steps of trot, so that was no good.

He's not a hunter type to look at but he's a super sport horse type and a lovely animal. We're doing the HB stuff just to get him out and expose him to the world, I don't expect him to win against these type-y hunters, but he'll out jump them in 4 or 5 years, that I know! :)

We've practiced so much at home that he stood great, lead great, didn't call to anyone, even his buddy on the other end of the ring who was acting the fool calling FOR HIM! So much for buddy support.

Plumcreek
May. 30, 2010, 03:04 AM
You probably weren't at the Congress the year that a curtain fell into the Coliseum arena at the start of a 3 year old Hunter Under Saddle class. One horse came unglued and bucked it's rider off in the general confusion. Everyone was asked to leave the arena, re enter, and the class started over. Guess which horse won?

Mia412
May. 30, 2010, 06:12 AM
The mysteries of judging!

Glad to hear your boy was such a star. Mine would kill for a peppermint, your trick never would have worked for them!

enjoytheride
May. 30, 2010, 10:07 AM
Maybe they hired an arabian judge and he got confused and thought it was a liberty class?

not again
May. 30, 2010, 12:13 PM
About the peppermint oil.....it will drug test positive for a prohibited substance.

MHM
May. 30, 2010, 12:15 PM
You probably weren't at the Congress the year that a curtain fell into the Coliseum arena at the start of a 3 year old Hunter Under Saddle class. One horse came unglued and bucked it's rider off in the general confusion. Everyone was asked to leave the arena, re enter, and the class started over. Guess which horse won?

If management made the decision to start the class over from scratch, there is no reason the bucking horse shouldn't have won if he was the best one. Provided he didn't buck during the do-over.

Alterrain
May. 30, 2010, 01:52 PM
About the peppermint oil.....it will drug test positive for a prohibited substance.

what?!? now PEPPERMINT is prohibited? what's next- apples and sugar cubes?

Plumcreek
May. 30, 2010, 01:57 PM
If management made the decision to start the class over from scratch, there is no reason the bucking horse shouldn't have won if he was the best one. Provided he didn't buck during the do-over.

Very true (and it was a nice moving horse). But it sure was a topic of conversation, especially since all connections to the horse had political clout. Speculation was that the same scenario with no-name connections might have been different, same performance. Livened up the horse show, though.

Judging is interesting. Reminds me of a crusty old judge's story: He placed a breeding in-hand class. Before winners were announced he walked up to the head of the line and said to the equally crusty old trainer-handler (his story, truth uncertain): "You probably know I don't like you much (exact words not included here), but I have to place you first, because you have the best horse."

SSFLandon
May. 30, 2010, 02:04 PM
what?!? now PEPPERMINT is prohibited? what's next- apples and sugar cubes?

that's werid, is it just the oil? because the treats are still used at the shows, vicks works well and it not banned as far as i know

hntrjmprpro45
May. 30, 2010, 06:27 PM
HB judges can be a little "surprising" at times. Some prefer to judge conformation and type with much more emphasis than movement. Many of our hunter breeding classes are double judged so each class counts twice and their are two different placings. Its not uncommon to see one judge place a horse 1st or 2nd and the other to place it dead last. It just boils down to preference- its the ultimate class in subjectivity. I have seen some horses absolutely rock the HB classes and never produce a more than an average career in the hunter ring. The way I look at it, win or lose, its just good experience for young horses. If the judging is good then thats just a bonus.

tidy rabbit
May. 30, 2010, 07:00 PM
About the peppermint oil.....it will drug test positive for a prohibited substance.


Good to know, but this was a non USEF show, no testing. I'll be sure to check the USEF drug rules.

BigEq
May. 30, 2010, 07:12 PM
I knew a yearling who mounted a girl's head in the hunter breeding and he won his yearling division and then was Reserve Best Young Horse. So who knows :confused:

tidy rabbit
May. 30, 2010, 07:18 PM
I have to say, after seeing the 2 y.o. get loose and run around, while I'm standing there with my colt, I believe I decide then and there that I'm done with the HB stuff. Too dangerous for me. I don't want to get tromped to death because some yahoo can't control their gelding. Shhesh, it's a gelding, how hard can it be to keep it under wraps?

Maybe I'll try a couple dressage in-hand classes at least you go in the ring one at a time. LOL

SueL
May. 30, 2010, 09:33 PM
I have to say, after seeing the 2 y.o. get loose and run around, while I'm standing there with my colt, I believe I decide then and there that I'm done with the HB stuff. Too dangerous for me. I don't want to get tromped to death because some yahoo can't control their gelding. Shhesh, it's a gelding, how hard can it be to keep it under wraps?

Maybe I'll try a couple dressage in-hand classes at least you go in the ring one at a time. LOL

Do you plan to wear the helmet cam while trotting the large triangle? ;)

Sue

Dazednconfused
May. 30, 2010, 09:45 PM
Unlike conformation classes at breed shows, hunter breeding is not judged on manners. The hope is that you can get the baby to stand still long enough for the judge to get a look at them. If the baby that got loose had the second best conformation in the judges opinion then it gets second.

Uh, manners aren't really much of a consideration in breed shows either. Ever see all the chains through the mouths of the paints & quarter horse halter horses? Or the let's-tease-the-stallions in the arab halter classes? ;)

lauriep
May. 31, 2010, 07:29 AM
I have to say, after seeing the 2 y.o. get loose and run around, while I'm standing there with my colt, I believe I decide then and there that I'm done with the HB stuff. Too dangerous for me. I don't want to get tromped to death because some yahoo can't control their gelding. Shhesh, it's a gelding, how hard can it be to keep it under wraps?

Maybe I'll try a couple dressage in-hand classes at least you go in the ring one at a time. LOL

And you think horses don't get loose in other disciplines? I have yet to see anyone, horse or handler, get hurt in a HB class. And why in the world would you think a frightened/excited/unruly gelding would be any easier to control than a colt or filly? Two years ago at DEVON in the MARES SUITABLE TO PRODUCE class, a mare got loose and it took 20 minutes to catch her. Dressage babies are no better or worse behaved than hunter babies. Don't kid yourself.

tidy rabbit
May. 31, 2010, 08:05 AM
And you think horses don't get loose in other disciplines? .... Don't kid yourself.

Alrighty then. I wont.

tidy rabbit
May. 31, 2010, 08:21 AM
I wish you all who knew all this was okay would have spoke up when I was first asking about HB classes.

Back then, the people who replied to my posts really stressed how important it was that your horse stood up correctly, was well mannered, jogged just the right way. NO ONE mentioned that it really didn't matter at all how well behaved or not your horse is in the class.

:lol:

findeight
May. 31, 2010, 08:48 AM
Back then, the people who replied to my posts really stressed how important it was that your horse stood up correctly, was well mannered, jogged just the right way. NO ONE mentioned that it really didn't matter at all how well behaved or not your horse is in the class.
:lol:

Well, bigger shows with more competition USUALLY don't come up with an ill behaved winner. I did show breed in both Ayrab, APHA and QH for almost 20 years...I think I saw, maybe, 2 loose horses and never saw any stallions mounting anything or anybody. Heard all the stories and no doubt it happens but...never actually seen it.

But when you get to the smaller shows? Kind of a snake pit across the board, in hand or riding. See some...er...variation from what you'd expect when they read the results.

Especially when the judge owns numerous relatives of young horse in question, the handler has a long standing business relationship with the judge...and the show manager owns it. And that, unfortunately, happens often out of the limelight of the bigger show. Not saying that happened to you here but it certainly happens.

It happens more with the in hand/halter then anything where they actually have to do something that can be judged. It's all the opinion of that judge and that misbehavior is not spelled out high on the list of what to look for when judging. If it is mentioned at all.

Gry2Yng
May. 31, 2010, 09:08 AM
I could be wrong, but I think peppermint is only a problem at the FEI level. Someone would actually have to make the call to AHSA Meds, my mind has become quite feeble.

TR - glad your baby behaved well.

tidy rabbit
May. 31, 2010, 09:49 AM
I looked at the http://www.usef.org/documents/drugsMeds/DrugsMedsGuidelines.pdf

and Peppermint is not listed in the forbidden substances list.

findeight
May. 31, 2010, 10:00 AM
I looked at the http://www.usef.org/documents/drugsMeds/DrugsMedsGuidelines.pdf

and Peppermint is not listed in the forbidden substances list.


Gosh, I hope I am not a pusher. Mine is fueled by peppermint candies and, judging from the crinkling sound of plastic wrappers in the barns and around the gate? :eek:

tidy rabbit
May. 31, 2010, 10:04 AM
Ya I figured it wasn't illegal, since one can feed peppermints to their horse at a show...... perhaps the poster was confused and thinking of Lavender oil? But even with the lavender oil I can't imagine that a tiny bit put on the horses nose would create a positive test.

hntrjmprpro45
May. 31, 2010, 10:37 AM
I know it can be frustrating but IMO the good outweighs the bad. It's really nice to start getting some show mileage on youngsters before they are going undersaddle (which adds value if you're dealing with a sales horse).

I have also shown in breed shows and quite frankly I think they are worse behaved as a group than HB. I have seen horses get loose/kick people/bite the judge in those halter classes.

Serah
May. 31, 2010, 11:22 AM
Ya I figured it wasn't illegal, since one can feed peppermints to their horse at a show...... perhaps the poster was confused and thinking of Lavender oil? But even with the lavender oil I can't imagine that a tiny bit put on the horses nose would create a positive test.



When i was a Jr. we weren't allowed to feed peppermints at the horse show bc the oil shows up in a test as an unknown substance. It wasn't illegal, per say, but would just show up on the test. I'm sure since then the tests have evolved to be able to recognize peppermint oil.

LivviesMom
May. 31, 2010, 02:19 PM
I did the line shows up here. I did it mainly for the experiance. It is true that Manners are not the be all end all of the class. The best conformation, movement and type should win. They are still babies and will have moments.

My mare did it too.. never got loose on me but got so impatient and ticked off she was a horror in her class. She was escalting the behaviour quickly and I made the decision to excuse us. Judge told me after it was unfortunate I left the class, as she liked my mare and was going to use her. But I felt it was no good for my horse and the others as well.

Tidy Rabbit.. honestly... please dont let it discourage you.. the experiance they gain from it is completely PRICELESS. As a 2 and 3 year old my mare walked into our biggest indoor show ( The Royal Winter Fair in Toronto) and was an absolute star.. better behaved than the grand prix horses in the ring I was lunging her in the night before!) I can take her anywhere and know she can handle it.. and if she cant atleast the ground manners she was taught and her trust in me win out.

Case in point...
I had an out of control horse being warmed up BACK INTO the ring I was doing a line class in.. knocking over a 70 year old woman and taking down the rope fencing that was up.. it was looking like the horse was going to start pulling the fencing around us.. my mare started to spook when I calmy and firmly told her to WHOA. she stood like a rock until it was sorted out..

tidy rabbit
May. 31, 2010, 04:46 PM
Here's the link to my horse(s), Dodger is in there too.

http://www.fairfieldphoto.com/photocart/index.php?do=photocart&viewGallery=21929&vp=1

Nice canter in hand picture! :lol:

findeight
May. 31, 2010, 05:30 PM
You mean, you don't get points for demonstrating additional gaits????

Have any pics of what beat you? May not be classic hunter type but that's a damn good horse built to go over fences to my eyes.;) Can't imagine any Hollywood or Popeye K wannabes were at that show.

tidy rabbit
May. 31, 2010, 05:32 PM
All the horses in the class were nice. Maybe not well behaved but they were all nice. The one that won the 2 y.o. class and won the overall championship was quite lovely. Definitely deserved to win, very hunter type.

lyndaelyzoo
May. 31, 2010, 08:27 PM
WOW!!!!!!!!! Another drop dead gorgeous horse! Is he by Sempatico? Love the green slobber in the picture too...guess that one likes grass as much as Dodger! LOL And loved how it seemed he is looking over at the judge? with each progressing picture. I would love to make a portrait of him if you don't mind. I guess I could contact the photographer to get clearance.

tidy rabbit
May. 31, 2010, 08:50 PM
Thanks lyndaelyzoo! Yes, he's a 2008 colt by Sempatico. We're very excited about him. He's a very promising dude.

Be my guest to make a portrait of him but I want it! :)

ASBJumper
Jun. 1, 2010, 03:48 PM
tidy rabbit -

Been there, done that... feel your pain.

It honestly doesn't make sense to me that manners are not judged in HUNTER breeding. Are Hunters not supposed to be calm and quiet? Are they not supposed to be obedient and carry themslves in a long/low, relaxed frame?
It is not exceedingly rare to find well-behaved babies - most of them are. The unruly/rearing/kicking out/crazy ones are in the minority, and IMHO, should not place - unless every other horse in the class is a goat.

And yes, I get that babies can get exuberant, I'm not referring to the occasional jump and squeal while jogging or a little nip on the arm when the handler is distracted, or even an antsy baby who keeps turning in circles and calling. I mean the truly nasty/uncontrollable ones that get away from their handlers, strike at them, rear up on them, kick them, refuse to jog without rearing up and plunging forward and broncing... I am sorry, but I have seen this kind of behaviour being rewarded with high ribbons, and that's just not right.

doublesstable
Jun. 1, 2010, 04:09 PM
Picture 73 is nice! He looks like he could easily do Dressage too....

Congrats on the day!! Sure a beautiful horse.....

tidy rabbit
Jun. 1, 2010, 04:21 PM
ahhh yes, the old canter in hand photo! ;0)

He took 3 strides in the trot and then just cantered a beautiful slow canter. LOL

lyndaelyzoo
Jun. 3, 2010, 09:57 PM
Apparently those hunter breeding classes are made up of escape artists!!! Another one gets away at Devon! :D

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs522.ash1/30700_10150200301805314_82392280313_12705557_24376 54_n.jpg

MHM
Jun. 3, 2010, 10:01 PM
Apparently those hunter breeding classes are made up of escape artists!!! Another one gets away at Devon! :D

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs522.ash1/30700_10150200301805314_82392280313_12705557_24376 54_n.jpg

I saw that picture on Facebook- naughty baby horse! :lol:

lyndaelyzoo
Jun. 3, 2010, 10:03 PM
And he got a blue ribbon too!! (but he was the only one in the class!!) :D

Summit Springs Farm
Jun. 3, 2010, 10:11 PM
TR Ya know I love ya, but your horse is not a hunter breeding type, sorry.
Your horses are VERY nice jumper types, so don't be disappointed!!
If there was jumper breeding you'd win everything hands down!

tidy rabbit
Jun. 3, 2010, 10:13 PM
TR Ya know I love ya, but your horse is not a hunter breeding type, sorry.
Your horses are VERY nice jumper types, so don't be disappointed!!
If there was jumper breeding you'd win everything hands down!


Thanks. I'm not disappointed, I'm well aware of his "type" and I LOVE every bit of him. He's gonna be kick'n A$$ in a couple years in the jumper ring! Oh did I mention, we don't do "Hunters" here at Stoneybrook Farm! :) But getting him out in the ring and to shows now, has been invaluable experience for him! So it's been totally worth it.


Hummmm, maybe we need to start a "Jumper Breeding" division!

Summit Springs Farm
Jun. 3, 2010, 10:31 PM
Good glad you are not disappointed:) If we lived closer I'd love to take jumper riding lessons from you!
Yes the breeding classes are good for experience!
And yes I know you don't do hunters!!

tidy rabbit
Jun. 4, 2010, 06:41 AM
I was dreaming last night about what a jumper breeding class would be like. LOL.

You're sweet SSF. There's a lot of you guys on COTH I wish lived closer to me.

sar2008
Jun. 4, 2010, 08:42 AM
I knew a yearling who mounted a girl's head in the hunter breeding and he won his yearling division and then was Reserve Best Young Horse. So who knows :confused:

I am sure this was pretty scary to watch, but I just spilled coffee all over my computer cracking up :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Sebastian
Jun. 4, 2010, 03:25 PM
TR, he's just lovely. Congrats!!! You're gonna have LOTS of fun with him.

Seb :)