Jim Ryan Horse Buyer/Trader died in truck/horse trailer wreck

[perfectionist]

Mr. Ryan was killed September 17 in an accident around Terre Haute Indiana. He was pulling a load of draft horses from a sale back to Kentucky. His name was tossed around last year when the RAMEY incident occured almost one year ago to the day. He traded horses extensively and ran Ryan Horse Sales. Here is a link to the story and the story:

http://www.tribstar.com/articles/2005/09/20/news/local_...e_yesterday/lb03.txt (http://www.tribstar.com/articles/2005/09/20/news/local_and_bistate_yesterday/lb03.txt)

News

Man, horses killed in I-up crash





A Kentucky man and two horses died Saturday when his pick-up truck and horse trailer drove into a median on Interstate 70.

At 11:35 p.m., James M. Ryan, 55, of Elizabeth, Ky. failed to negotiate a curve in the road near the 14 mile marker, according to a Vigo County Sheriff's Department news release.

Ryan was driving a pick-up truck eastbound and had 15 draft horses in an attached 30-foot horse trailer. The truck and trailer traveled about 500 feet though a wooded median and hit a tree head-on, police said. Police believe Ryan fell asleep at the wheel, according to the news release.

Ryan and his passenger, James M. Hornback, 39 of Hodgenville, Ky. were extricated and taken to Terre Haute Regional Hospital, where Ryan was pronounced dead due to internal injures.

Hornback was taken to Methodist Hospital in Indianapolis for leg and hip fractures and possible internal injuries. He was listed in fair condition Sunday, a hospital spokeswoman said.


The two were taking horses back to Kentucky after they bought them in Illinois. The horses were examined by veterinarian Beth Brown of the Airport Veterinary Clinic. Two of the horses were destroyed due to the extent of their injuries, police said.

The remaining horses were taken from the scene by members of the Vigo County Sheriff's Department Mounted Posse.

Tribune-Star staff report







Story created Sep 20, 2005 - 09:02:13 CDT.

[perfectionist]

Mr. Ryan was killed September 17 in an accident around Terre Haute Indiana. He was pulling a load of draft horses from a sale back to Kentucky. His name was tossed around last year when the RAMEY incident occured almost one year ago to the day. He traded horses extensively and ran Ryan Horse Sales. Here is a link to the story and the story:

http://www.tribstar.com/articles/2005/09/20/news/local_...e_yesterday/lb03.txt (http://www.tribstar.com/articles/2005/09/20/news/local_and_bistate_yesterday/lb03.txt)

News

Man, horses killed in I-up crash





A Kentucky man and two horses died Saturday when his pick-up truck and horse trailer drove into a median on Interstate 70.

At 11:35 p.m., James M. Ryan, 55, of Elizabeth, Ky. failed to negotiate a curve in the road near the 14 mile marker, according to a Vigo County Sheriff's Department news release.

Ryan was driving a pick-up truck eastbound and had 15 draft horses in an attached 30-foot horse trailer. The truck and trailer traveled about 500 feet though a wooded median and hit a tree head-on, police said. Police believe Ryan fell asleep at the wheel, according to the news release.

Ryan and his passenger, James M. Hornback, 39 of Hodgenville, Ky. were extricated and taken to Terre Haute Regional Hospital, where Ryan was pronounced dead due to internal injures.

Hornback was taken to Methodist Hospital in Indianapolis for leg and hip fractures and possible internal injuries. He was listed in fair condition Sunday, a hospital spokeswoman said.


The two were taking horses back to Kentucky after they bought them in Illinois. The horses were examined by veterinarian Beth Brown of the Airport Veterinary Clinic. Two of the horses were destroyed due to the extent of their injuries, police said.

The remaining horses were taken from the scene by members of the Vigo County Sheriff's Department Mounted Posse.

Tribune-Star staff report







Story created Sep 20, 2005 - 09:02:13 CDT.

[jetsmom]

How many horses would a 30' trailer normally fit? What size (feet wise) is an 8 horse gooseneck?
THe reason I ask is the article said he had 15 draft/draft cross horses in the trailer. That seems like a lot.

[EBO]

My 3-horse slant(modified stock), with dressing/tack room (bp with a Miata)is 16ft, plus tongue, and is cozy for 3 large-ish horses.

[magnum]

15 DRAFTS in an 8 horse?

BTW - About Mile Marker #14. Suffice to say, there is not really a big CURVE there. This guy was DEFINITELY not alert for whatever reason!!

There is NO curve in rural I-70 thru that entire area that is not safe to navigate at 80 m.p.h. (with a car ... of course not quite as fast in a rig ... point being, the road is NOT very curvy thru there).

Magnum

[jetsmom]

Would he have been taking horses to slaughter? It doesn't seem like most responsible horse people would be shipping 15 drafts in a 30' trailer. But then why would he be going to KY instead of IL? Or is there a pmu auction/outlet in IN and he is bringing them to a killer auction in KY? Just trying to make sense of the # of Drafts in a trailer that size.

[perfectionist]

I am not sure why he would bring the horses to KY. He ran some sales himself in KY. However, there was a sale this past Saturday about an hour and a half from him in FAIRVIEW KY; it was a Mennonite sale and featured horses of several types, including draft horses. He may have been planning to trade some there. Or he may have just been peddling them.

We have a 24' cattle trailer to haul cattle, and I cannot get 15 cows in it, much less draft horses.

In his obituary, which I am posting, stated he was a member of the draft horse association in KY. The Courier Journal obit ran September 20. The wreck article ran I think September 18; the wreck was September 17.

Here is his obit:

James Michael "Jim" Ryan

ELIZABETHTOWN RYAN, JAMES MICHAEL, "JIM," 55, died Sunday, September 18, 2005, in Terre Haute, IN. A native of Hardin County, KY, he was a member of St. Clare Catholic Church, Central Kentucky Draft Horse Association and the American Quarter Horse Association. He was a lifelong horse trader and the owner and operator of Ryan Horse Sales. He was preceded in death by his father, Kenneth Ryan, and a brother, Bill Ryan. Survivors include his wife, De Nealta Etherton Ryan of Elizabethtown; a son, Jason Ryan (Amy) of Elizabethtown; two daughters, Tammy Hall (Brent) and Kelly Ryan all of Elizabethtown; his mother, Bertha Jean Ryan of Elizabethtown; two sisters, Jeanie Thompson (Bill) of Cecilia and Judy Thompson (Bobby) of Louisville; and five grandchildren, Linsey, Emily, Madison, James Wade and Matthew Ryan. The funeral Mass will be celebrated at 11 a.m. Thursday at St. Clare Catholic Church, with Rev. Ivo Cecil officiating. Burial will follow in St. Clare Cemetery. Visitation is from 11 a.m.-8 p.m. Wednesday at Brown Funeral Home. A prayer vigil service will be held at 5:30 p.m. Wednesday at the funeral home.
Published in The Courier-Journal on 9/20/2005.

[perfectionist]

Is this anywhere near where the RAMEY wreck was last year? <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by magnum:
15 DRAFTS in an 8 horse?

BTW - About Mile Marker #14. Suffice to say, there is not really a big CURVE there. This guy was DEFINITELY not alert for whatever reason!!

There is NO curve in rural I-70 thru that entire area that is not safe to navigate at 80 m.p.h. (with a car ... of course not quite as fast in a rig ... point being, the road is NOT very curvy thru there).

Magnum </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[jetsmom]

I just answered my own questions- The Ryans own Ryan Horse Co and sell to Beltex in TX for slaughter.

Interesting case where a lady thought she found a good home for 2 of her pet horses that she needed to place due to her having Myasthenia Gravis (A serious disease). They horses eventually were sold behind her back to Ryan Horse Co and slaughtered at Beltex. She won a judgement against them for 126,000.00 and it was upheld on appeal. See link below for court case.

court case (http://www.nabr.org/animallaw/emotionaldistress/burgessvtaylor2001ky.pdf)

[LefT * of * CenteR!]

I just can't feel sorry for a man like that. Jingles for those poor horse he killed in the accident, and the 13 others, as for him, I hope his death was slow and painful.

[gazenna]

I feel kinda bad, that I dont feel bad. I do feel bad for the guys family though, and of course I feel very bad for the horses. I am a big believer in What goes around comes around.

[EBO]

Exactly the phrase I was thinking of, gazenna. What goes around comes around. I don't feel a bit sorry for him, either. But I don't feel bad that I don't feel bad. Good riddance.

[county]

Some of you people have some very warped morals, how totally sad you are. Obviously not real big on the Bible or its teachings. I really hope you don't have children your raising.

BTW what size and age were the draft horses?

[Lori B]

county, with all due respect, not everyone is a Christian, therefore not everyone thinks that the bible is the measure of proper moral action.

I read the trial transcript for the woman whose pets his business bought from her deceptively sold for meat, and I have to believe that this man earned an unhappy demise. Too bad he took horses with him.

[Iluvgoldies]

Maybe I am cruel as well but when I read about a person like that I dont feel instantly sad about what happened to them... But show me a picture of their family and talk about the GOOD things they did in life then I will feel guilty.

Also the article said he was hauling with his pick up truck. What pick up truck can haul 15 draft horses ?? Sounds like an accident waiting to happen to me!

[onthebit12000]

Sounds to me like he was killed by his own greed! (isnt that one of the 7 deadly sins?)

What reason other than greed would there be for hauling 15 drafties in a 30 foot trailer???
That is only 2 foot per horse!!!!

Gee..do ya think the drafties trying to find some breathing room could have contributed to the wreck?

I just thank goodness he didnt take any other innocent human life out with him!

[luvmytbs]

Jim Ryan was responsible for 1000's of horses going to slaughter over the years. His sons ( I thought he had two ?, one is named Buck Ryan) are both in the business as well.
Shepherdsville auction was closed last night. It would have been the last sale before the Ensign ammendment is to be in effect. There were no signs at the auction house for the closing.
In the past, draft horses (absolutely stunning healthy looking animals by the way) were unloaded from one trailer and loaded back on another behind the auction house, without being run through the auctions itself. This was always done very hush hush.
His offspring were part of the group of people I mentioned in other threats, getting pleasure out of beating the horses with metal bars when sorting them out for the different kill buyers, who also frequented this auction regularly.
I hope it is over for good at least at Shepherdsville.

[Daydream Believer]

Well, I am sorry for his family but it sounds like he had that coming. Like someone else said, what goes around comes around. At least his suffering was a lot shorter than the thousands of horses he sent to slaughter over his lifetime.

[The Pie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lori B:
county, with all due respect, not everyone is a Christian, therefore not everyone thinks that the bible is the measure of proper moral action.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
My sentiments exactly! Sounds like this man got what he was owed. I do however feel sorry for his family and the many horses he apparently murdered.

[fargo]

I wouldn't wish anybody dead no matter what actions they have done. Does it make us better persons to wish someone dead? Does it help anybody or any animal to say that? I doubt it. I don't know the man, I don't know what he did and I don't know whether he deserved to die..

[Duffy]

Who said anything about wishing someone dead making them a better person?

I don't know the man either. But, I do know that animal cruelty is at the top of my list for someone who belongs in hell, preferably before any more innocents are made to suffer. If that makes me un-Christian. So be it. I obviously don't think my sentiments make me a "better person" either. And yes, I feel for this monster's family. Maybe they'll find another "line of work" now.

[2 tbs]

On my drive to work today I was surrounded by every idiot in a 20 mile radius. I must have cussed out at least a dozen people as they showed their complete lack of consideration for other people and the laws of the road. In general, most people are ignorant and self centered...certainly not my favorite species on the planet.

When animal people are confronted with a person who harms animals, they are immediately against the person and feel compassion for the the animal - understandably.

However, regardless of how this man lived his life and no matter how rotten he was to the horses (which makes me sick to think about) we have no right to say he got what he deserved. Are we all vegetarians? Do any of us eat even chicken or turkey or fish? My point is, I'm sure there are things we do in our lives that others would find horribly offensive but we are going to keep doing them anyway.

I do not see how this unfortunate accident is much different from the other accident recently discussed here where, as humans, we took many flames because the sorrow was expressed for the horse before the human (I was one who listed the horse in my condolences first-didn't mean I didn't feel bad for the people, just mentioned the horse first).

This is still a person. Maybe a person who lived a life we disagree with and repeatedly fight to stop - but a person. If he was the CEO of a major company and ran the company into the ground while he lived high and mighty you would not have the same reaction while those that worked for that company and ended up with nothing would feel the hatred and lack of compassion. Just remember that it is still a human life regardless.

I do not agree with his business. I do not agree with the conditions reported...but as we found out last week...what is reported isn't always correct. If news reports are wrong about an accident a week ago then they can be wrong now. I do feel more sorry for the horses than the human but that's because I always feel that way. To say he got what was coming to him when that involves death really makes me wonder what kind of world we live in and makes me very happy to know that I do not want children as I couldn't bear to raise them in a world where we can't disagree with others but still accept them in extreme circumstances.

[perfectionist]

I must have missed the topic, but what was reported that was not reported correctly last week? I hope it was about the dogs being shot in New Orleans. Thanks!

[LefT * of * CenteR!]

Fargo - know one on this board *wished* him dead, it just happened, most of just decided that this was no great loss. As for County - don't you dare come and tell people you don't even know that we are or aren't Christian like, who the hell are you to judge? If you are such a good Christian, it would never cross your mind to judge the rest of us! And for your information, I am a Christian and I am pretty sure God didn't put horses here for us to treat them the way that man and his sons treat them. Personally, that man's death is no great loss to the horse world.

[Lori B]

I am happy to agree to disagree with others. But when I say disagree, I'm thinking, "I disagree with the color you painted your house, or, I disagree with how you parked your car." But I don't 'disagree' with someone whose livelihood is derived from horse slaughter, particularly someone who on at least one well-documented occasion, lied to the seller about the incipient fate of her horses. 'Disagree' is nowhere near strong enough. Would I do harm to such a person? no. Do I wish them dead if they are alive now? No. But it's hard to regret this man's demise with any sincerity, because of the repeated and apparently intentional harm he did others, both animal and human (the owner he lied to). He CHOSE that life, and I CHOOSE not to regret that the life he chose is now over.

[county]

Christian or non Christian if the attitude of some here in supposed to represent the anti slaugher fraction then I'm proud to say I'm pro slaughter. If the anti slaughter people that don't feel like some of these but would never say anything for fear of what others would think then one word comes to mind. " GUTLESS"

[Lori B]

I don't claim to represent anyone but myself, and have studiously avoided any name-calling here, county. If you are convinced that your views are correct, you should do the same.

[county]

No ones done any name calling here? Your kidding right?

[The Pie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Christian or non Christian if the attitude of some here in supposed to represent the anti slaugher fraction then I'm proud to say I'm pro slaughter. If the anti slaughter people that don't feel like some of these but would never say anything for fear of what others would think then one word comes to mind. " GUTLESS" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
accusing me of being a bad parent because I don't meet your so called christian ideals is what I call gutless and pathetic.

[county]

Then you and I have differant definitions of gutless and pathetic.

[Lori B]

I said that I do not call names. Can't account for the actions of others.

[county]

But yet you decided to call me on name calling rather then any of the others who have done so. Why?

[Lori B]

Because you inaccurately characterize my words, and then call me names based on your own misreading. That's why.

[county]

Wouldn't have anything to do with you not daring to say a word against a anti slaughter person would it? Fear of then being attacked by some of them? I mean either one beleives somethings right or wrong or they don't why would it matter what anyone thinks on a totally differant subject?

[Lori B]

Say it with me: Spell check is your friend.

I do oppose slaughter. What I said was that I don't 'represent' any viewpoint other than my own. And I am starting to find it hard to understand what you are so angry about, other than the fact that many folks posting in this thread disagree with you.

[NMS]

Again, another thread hijack. Please don't go down that road, again...

[county]

I wonder whjat the reaction would be if say this deal was reversed. Say it was someone coming back from New Holland with a load of horses they rescued. Same thing happens person killed only pro slaughter people say how wonderful shes dead and deserves what she got. Everyone here think they wouldn't speak up? Everyone here going to say well those people certainly have the right to say what they want about her. Nothing at all wrong with how they think.

I'm betting it wouldn't happen that way.

[Lori B]

NWS, not my intention at all. I've said all I have to say here, most of it on topic.

[county]

Wghat exactly does a persons spelling have to do with it/ If you can't understand any word I've wrote tell me and I'll redo it till you can.

Angry? i'm not angry I'm just amazed theres this many hateful people in the world. Although I'm noy sure why it surprises me.

[Duffy]

county, why on earth would anyone, (pro slaughter people included), think it was a good thing for a person who rescued some horses from slaughter to die in an accident? This person didn't do anything to harm horses (at least not in this example). Now, if this person put 15 draft horses in a 30' rig and had the same result, the driver would be guilty as sin, because the driver would have put those horses into an inhumane, cruel and unsafe situation.

I don't condemn anyone for their opinions on the slaughter issue. I DO condemn anyone who thinks it's ok when the conditions are cruel. I could never knowingly send a horse to slaughter, no matter how humane the transport and holding areas were purported to be. I would want to be there to comfort any pet of mine before they are euthanized.

[findeight]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by perfectionist:
Is this anywhere near where the RAMEY wreck was last year? [QUOTE]

Same state, and probably was using the same route to Ky, that's about it. That one was on a 2 lane "shortcut" off I74 between Indy and Cincy a little closer to Ky.

I70...you can lay a ruler on the map from Columbus OH to Denver and it'll be as dead straight as that ruler. Boring too. Lots of fall asleep accidents.

Same company also flipped a loaded, double decker cattle truck at the 275/75 interchange about 2 years ago and shut that down for most of a day.

No comment on the rest of the thread.

[jetsmom]

I'd venture to guess that if the roles were reversed you wouldn't have a rescuer cramming 15 Drafts in a 30 ' trailer. And it would be a great loss because you would lose someone who was committed to improving horse's lives. How you can compare those 2 different situations is beyond me.
I wouldn't wish him dead, but I see it as poetic justice. Someone dying as result of their greed which caused an unsafe situation.

[Fancy]

Well, all this heat isn't throwing any light on this subject. As for something Biblical--how about "An Eye for an Eye?" In any case, he is standing before a Higher Authority now, One who notices the fall of a single sparrow. I imagine justice was swift and sure, not to mention appropriate. The vision of this man, stuffed into a 2'x 2' box, toasting slowly over the coals of Hell for all eternity comforts me, but that would be judgement, so I will not go there. May he rest in whatever peace is granted to him.

[county]

Like I asked before was it 15 full size drafts or 15 weaningings? I can easily fir 15 weanlings in that size trailer.

So as long as its OK in a persons mind one can go along with them being dead? Does that work both ways or one?

[county]

So if this person is condemmed because he was hauling horses everyone figures to slaughter. Should any person hauling any other livestock be felt the same way about? Anyone here eat meat? If its an "eye for an eye" does that include all " eyes "

[gazenna]

County, I dont need or want you to judge me cause of what I said. About 3 years ago a guy sold me a horse that I ended up having to put down a few months after I bought her for my daughter. This horse came from Kentucky, and I remember the guy I bought her from telling me he had bought her from a Ryan. I found out later on that the Ryans are good for that kind of thing, until that time I had never heard of them. There is more to this, but that is the jist of it. Now that I have slept on this news I know for sure what goes around comes around. A person can only get away with deception be it towards people or animals for so long...And as far as that goes if no one stood up and spoke for the animals, it scares me to even think of how this world would really be. I do look at myself as a christian, I pray to God, and I am also thankful for what I have, and by the way how would you know that I have not talked to God about not feeling bad that this guy bit the dust. I feel awful for the two horses that had to be put down, but then I think about what happened to the 13 that survived, did they survive just to be slaughter, and if they did that is awful too.

[county]

I know anti slaughter people that do the same things when they sell horses. Should they be judged same as this guy?

BTW theres an awful lot of people with the last name Ryan

[jetsmom]

This Ryan is the same one as the one that buys horses and sells to Beltex and owns Ryan Horse co. I verified the home address. (Both for the accident, the company, the Beltex killer seller, and the court case where the home for the horses was mirepresented and the horses were slaughtered at Beltex.) They are one and the same.

[darkmoonlady]

I have read about three threads that have been hijacked by county. The one thing that comes to mind over and over again is, you don't like the fact that people don't like slaughter. I wonder why that would be?

Well from what I have read you make money on slaughter, oh I know you don't feel that since you don't DIRECTLY sell that somehow lets you off the hook, tho despite saying on another thread that you sold horses to sales knowing that they would go to slaughter and didn't see why others would be bothered by that. Well this is a message board full of people who as a rule like to be responsible horse owners and who for the most part do not agree with slaughter, want to see it end, and not ever come back.

What about that do you not get? You come to threads that are for all intents and purposes anti-slaughter, not so much to offer a differing opinion, instead you stir the $hit and then stand back play whipping boy and say see how bad you treat pro slaughter people. You try to be a martyr but the fact that you seem to not care your horses ( fifeen weanlings fit just fine? what with lubricant?). So if you come to these threads, stand with your arms outstretched spouting nothing but pro-slaughter dogma and get pelted by those who don't think much of you, what are you complaining about?

As for the man that died, the most biblical thing I can think of (not being a christian I admit) is you reap what you sow. If this man spent his life decieving people, (hell let's use the proper terminology) CONNING people either in his buying or selling tactics that says not a good man. Then he overloads a trailer with fifteen large horses that was only meant for at the most less than HALF that amount then dies in accident from it. Then he goes from not good to very bad, and when very bad people meet their demise from their own selfish actions, they reaped what they sowed.

[luvmytbs]

County,
Jim Ryan was very well known in the slaughter industry, you will find his name on the Beltex buyer list. He lived outside of Elizabethtown. He ran the Shepherdsville auction. This is the same Jim Ryan!
The drafts he always brought to Shepherdsville were huge, not weanlings!
The Ryans did rarely provide any water to the animals even in close to 100% temps and they were asked to comply on several occassions.
Jim Ryan's kin always helped with the auction. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree!
No-one put a bullet into his head to kill him. He died in an accident while doing what he knew best: Gathering horses to be slaughtered.
If a repeat child molester fell of a roof and died, while scoping out his next victim, not too many people would shed a tear.

[county]

Like I said if this were a cattle buyer would you all feel the same way?

So darkmoonlady I'll ask you the same as I did onthebit. Since your so sure you know all about me and the operation here why don't you tell us about me.

But use facts not personal opinion.

[county]

I have no doubt its the Jim Ryan. The man was killed working a legal job. Would everyone think we should all codem every person who dies if we don't like what they do for a living? I could never be a lawyer who defends a child rapist should I be happy when lawyers get killed?

[ProzacPuppy]

In a word, karma.

He lived through the deaths of others (his equine victims) and he died through his involvement with the deaths of others. Karma.

Of course his death was probably swift unlike that of many of his equine cargos. To be totally cruel- if he bled to death- now that would really be karma.

I'm sorry but a man who lived through the suffering of hundreds of horses does not warrant any sympathy or pity.

[county]

Like I asked feel that way about all livestock owners that sell to slaughter? Eat any meat lately?

[2 tbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gazenna:
A person can only get away with deception be it towards people or animals for so long...And as far as that goes if no one stood up and spoke for the animals, it scares me to even think of how this world would really be.

I feel awful for the two horses that had to be put down, but then I think about what happened to the 13 that survived, did they survive just to be slaughter, and if they did that is awful too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The other horses were taken by the police from what the article said...most likely they will be put into foster homes or be adopted I'm sure.

Speaking for the animals has no bearing on this accident. Well, unless someone caused the accident to stop him from hauling the horses to slaughter but in that case I think we'd have ourselves quite the court case to watch!

As far as speaking for the animals...last I checked we pack all kinds of livestock-cows, pigs, etc on trailers and haul them off to be hamburger, pork chops, etc. But can you (not just you gazenna-anyone/everyone) tell me you'd eat a steak, maybe the best steak you've eaten in your life and then feel contempt for the man who hauled the cow to the slaughter house? That's um, well, I won't even go there.

For those countries that use our slaughtered horses for consumption I find it horrifying but guess what-a vegetarian finds it awful that I like chicken. We all have to make a living somehow and I'll bet Jim Ryan inherited a family business much like his son(s) will now.

The guy who owns my farm is a mechanic. Guess what...so was his dad. His son isn't so much into cars as he is welding and things of that sort but he does work on cars and does work at the garage. Would you be happy if any of them died because car exhaust polutes the air?

We grow up doing what we do, knowing what we know unless we put our minds to something else. Sometimes some folks find it easier to just keep with what's working.

How does a surgeon choose between two people needing emergency surgery? If one is an organ doner...guess what, your life is expendable because you can save another. Or if both are or aren't then whoever has the more life threatening injuries and the less chance of recovery goes...horrible but it happens...how do you condemn the surgeon for saving a life just because he had to lose one?

Basically I think people are too quick to judge someone who has a life different than they would choose for themselves - religion, sexual orientation, job, or whatever. It is each individuals right to feel how they want and yes, even express that feeling but I think somewhere along the line we should not be so quick to smear hatred in the form of "he got what he deserves", "I don't even feel bad that he's dead" etc on the internet. Who says his family won't get a hold of this? How would they feel? Enemies who have never met the man behind the job and only hate him for his job not for the real person he was.

Also, you never know when you might find yourself in need of help from a member of this family-car breaks down or whatever. I know none of you would hesitate to say "help me" even if you knew who they were...could you live with yourself knowing how "relieved" you were with one more slaughter hauler dead if they quickly jumped to help because they had no clue what you said about their late family member?

I am saddened by the loss of the horses. I am saddened by the thought of those large horses-even weanlings of that breed would be larger than average-being hauled in those conditions. I am saddened by the job this man did and wonder how he could wake up every day and go to work but I do understand that a living needed made so he made one. I feel sorry for his family-they lost a son, a brother, a husband, and a father. Losing someone from your life is not easy...even if they hauled horses to slaughter.

I won't even touch County's statements though...they have been a bit http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif on most threads http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

luvmytb's: I understand your point about the child molester but remember, to someone that person is family and we still shouldn't sit here and do a happy dance simply out of respect for others. Tasteful I guess is a good word. Be sorry for the loss but in your own mind/heart feel however you want.

What comes around goes around...that's how you all want to think of it? Well, then I guess you'll get yours too for judging Jim Ryan. If he were arrested and imprisoned...yes, I'd be happy that he was going to jail. That he died? Well, can't same I'm unhappy that one less person will be hauling horses to slaughter but I am certainly not going to say I'm happy he's dead...it was an accident and shame it had to be that way.

[Rye]

oh god. County...you're from the Horses Midwest board aren't you? Rats! I thought I'd escaped your argumentative/must have the last word ways. UGH! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[county]

Argumentative ways? So if I disagree with you its argumentitive? When you disagree with someone its?

[Rye]

You have a talent for latching on to something like a pit bull and not letting go. Having been on Horses Midwest board, I know that you live to have the last word. It's tiring and drains the life force of BBs.

[ProzacPuppy]

As a matter of fact, I've been a vegetarian for the last 45 years http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Sold my mother's fur coat that I inherited and donated the money to the ASPCA too.

[county]

Some will agree with you Rye others don't.

[county]

Like I been asking just how huge were the horses? I've never seen anything thats answered that yet. 15 full sized over 1 ton horses with two feet of space each ( not even sure you could cram them in? Or 15 weanling draft horses that could easily fit? Or something in between? Does the person who wrote the article even know theres a differance? I've seen some news reports that weren't even close to accurate. Especially when dealing with animals.

[SeaOat]

Some creeps slip the cracks, but for this one who slipped into a tree. Ah, there is a God.....

[ProzacPuppy]

Considering I know alot of people who have huge trailers that only carry 6 or 8 horses, I would think that even 15 young drafts would have fairly limited personal space in a 30' trailer.

Of course those people care about their horse which I don't think is the case here.

[darkmoonlady]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Like I said if this were a cattle buyer would you all feel the same way?

So darkmoonlady I'll ask you the same as I did onthebit. Since your so sure you know all about me and the operation here why don't you tell us about me.

But use facts not personal opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If a person packed cattle in like sardines to the point the truck overturned because of it, no I wouldn't feel any different. Greed is greed whether it was packed with puppies or cows or whatever, cruelty is cruely.

as for using fact..here is <span class="ev_code_RED">your own words from the last few discussions on slaughter...</span>
"Personally I think stopping slaughter will prevent some neglected and abused horses from being bought, fed decent, brought back to health, and given a chance at a good life. I know myself and a few others around here can't afford to take a loss on the ones we fix up time after time. Without a way to break at least even on them there just not going to get a chance

Hey I'm all for that, now tell me how you propse to make it happen? Personally I'd much much more see people take responsability for the kids they breed and abuse. Horses are just an animal that can serve a purpose as food. People are here till there dead and the entire world has to live with them. Child abuse and neglect is about a million times more important to me.

Yep most culls go to slaughter plants I haul my cattle directly to one. Horses I sell as riders if there broke if not to a horse auction. Where they go from there all depends on who pays the most and what they want them for. "

[luvmytbs]

As we have noticed in all of County's replies and questions, it is all about him. Why does he keep asking us what we know about him?

Let's stay on the issue and I have a question:

The Ryan's have a farm which houses up to 200 horses at one time, from what I hear.
Is anybody in the area who can find out what happens to these animals now?

[CoolRabbit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by darkmoonlady:

If a person packed cattle in like sardines to the point the truck overturned because of it, no I wouldn't feel any different. Greed is greed whether it was packed with puppies or cows or whatever, cruelty is cruely. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where does it say that the truck overturned because the trailer was too packed? The article states that he fell asleep at the wheel. The more people post on this thread, the more dramatic the 'facts' become. And the more judgemental the posters get...wow...it's amazing.

[county]

luvmytbs, why do I ask what some know about me? Because some keep saying they do.

[caffeinated]

Whether or not we like what mr. ryan did with horses, the fact is it's legal.

And somewhere there are quite a number of people that are very upset at the loss of their father/brother/son/husband, who provided for them.

Do we find what he did in life distasteful? Sure. But I think the glee/satisfaction expressed here by his death is a little sad and somewhat scary. It reminds me of how my ex cheered when watching video of Baghdad being bombed. I'm not saying everyone should grieve, but to express such joy at a horrible accident is just something I can't bring myself to do.

Everyone has different perspectives on this. From Mr. Ryan's, he was just making a living and feeding his family. He was probably not evil. I have in the past corresponded with people who ship horses to slaughter- and they're not evil people. They have different views on what horses are and aren't, that usually differ from mine. But that doesn't make them bad people...

And celebrating someone's death, IMO, is just as distasteful as anything he may have done while living.

[county]

Ok darkmoonlady you proved you can sopy something. Now prove what my operation is all about. Do you actually think you have shown what this place all entails because you know how to copy a few words? Lets be honest here you've proven nothing except you don't like the fact that some horses I buy and fix up get sold at an auction. How about the ones that go across the country to good homes? How about evetrything else here you haven't seemed to touch on much yet. Lets see the whole picture not a very tiny piece of it. Or maybe you just have no clue like onthebit about what your even talking about.

[county]

Seaoat thank you so much for showing the type person I've been talking about. You did it so much better then I could.

Personally I'll stick to the pro slaughter types. Just an all around better class of people.

[ProzacPuppy]

Sorta distasteful attitude on slaughter of sentient beings

Terrible typist

Fairly crappy speller

Do I know enough about you county?

[county]

No i think you missed the point. They were saying they know all about my livestock operation. Not the amount of education I have or if I'm a good speller or not. Besides that would be changing topic and we know thats just a bad bad thing.

[luvmytbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by caffeinated:



And celebrating someone's death, IMO, is just as distasteful as anything he may have done while living. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not see anyone here celebrating his death!

Posters voiced their personal opinons of how he will not be missed among the ones who are trying keep horses from going to slaughter.

How they put this into words is their choice. Just like his orbituary was written by someone who mentioned only his positive points. No-one is demanding to add some of his not so "clean dealings" to the orbituary!

[2Traks]

county -

I rarely , if ever, get involved in discussions like this, but today I will make a rare exception. You are a very scary person. It's mentalities like yours that keep me up at night wondering how exactly this world has gotten to be the way it is. It scares to me know that people like you are breeding and propagating a new generation. And, to answer your repeated inquiries regarding whether people are vegetarians, yes I am.

[equestrielle]

I was reading this thread and I recall I met Jim Ryan at a local killer sale in Illinois. There was an Arabian gelding, clearly lame, that he had bought before I got there. It was the first and only time I went to this sale.

I felt bad for the horse and asked who bought him, and was referred to Jim Ryan. I asked if I could purchase the horse from him and he quoted me an outrageous price that was about triple what he paid. What the fate of the gelding was, I will never know because I declined to buy the horse for that much.

I was told later he often took horses and resold them at a profit as riding horses, rather than sending them to slaughter. Maybe he felt he could make this gelding sound and resell him for money.

I will tell you this, I didn't get a good impression from the man. He and his wife were wearing a lot of bling jewlery and he clearly thought I was a chump for asking to buy that lame horse from him. I can say it was all about the money with this man.

I am sure he felt he made his living selling livestock, it's just the livestock happened to be horses. I doubt he made much money (despite his diamond rings) and it sounds like a rather hard life to me. I doesn't surprise me his family helped him, when you are callous toward animals that attitude tends to rub off on others.

He was being irresponsible driving with horses in a condition where he could not stay awake (pull over and take a nap!), wonder what his driving partner was doing considering that was his job to keep the guy awake. He was probably asleep too. Good thing no other people were involved in the accident.

[hosspuller]

Why all the vitriol toward Mr. Ryan? He was doing a socially lawful and needed job.

Some posters have called him deceitful. I don't see anything that proves he was. The lawsuit was against two other people that sold pet horses to Beltex. Ryan was only involved as the buyer... He wasn't lying to any party in the lawsuit.

Slaughter or antislaughter, is off topic, horses unwanted or unsuitable have to go somewhere. Ryan & Beltex provided a service to us all.

Just like the landfills that take the trash WE ALL generate! That no one wants in their backyard. otherwise known as NIMBY!

[county]

2traks beleive me theres an awful lot of people in the world who feel the same about your type. Then theres others who can see that not everyones the same way. What about my children do you dislike? Or maybe you really have no clue about them at all.

[caffeinated]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luvmytbs:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by caffeinated:



And celebrating someone's death, IMO, is just as distasteful as anything he may have done while living. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not see anyone here celebrating his death!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think people saying things like "good riddance" is pretty distasteful.

[luvmytbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by caffeinated:



I think people saying things like "good riddance" is pretty distasteful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That might be the case, but it is not celebrating his death.

I can understand why someone would want to express themselves in such fashion. Merely because I have spent many months at each one of the Ryan's auctions and had to witness the cruelty with which they treated the horses destined for slaughter. If they ran this business proffessionaly by supplying water to horses and preventing the help from beating on the kill horses with metal pipes, running animals with broken limbs around until they fall and then laugh about it; the factor of a human loosing his life might not provoke such controversial feelings.
I have also watched Jodey Ramey around horses on several occassions and have to admit, that he has more of a caring approach with them, then I have ever encountered from any of the Ryan clan.

[2Traks]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
2traks beleive me theres an awful lot of people in the world who feel the same about your type. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What exactly is my "type"? People that are put off by people who say that slaughter will prevent horses from being rehabbed and being returned to health if it doesn't net them a profit?

[MistyBlue]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I just can't feel sorry for a man like that. Jingles for those poor horse he killed in the accident, and the 13 others, as for him, I hope his death was slow and painful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The vision of this man, stuffed into a 2'x 2' box, toasting slowly over the coals of Hell for all eternity comforts me </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Of course his death was probably swift unlike that of many of his equine cargos. To be totally cruel- if he bled to death- now that would really be karma.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is frightening regardless of religious affiliation. I absolutely do not agree with this person's business...but it was a legal business. This was a human who had family and friends who loved and cared for him. Now I know here on an equine BB most of the posters will be vehemently against slaughter and all those involved in it...but comments on this thread are absolutely horrifying IMO.
Not everyone feels as we do on here about horses, and most people put the lives of humans above all animals. I sincerely hope that none of his family nor friends comes onto this BB and sees this thread. Many folks in the livestock business do ride and folks who know this family might very well see this. Or come upon it doing a web search for details of the accident.
Hopefully the webby will see this and delete it. A thread discussing the news is one thing...a thread gleefully celebrating the death of a person because they disagreed with his business is quite another. It's disgusting. And for FWIW...I do *not* agree with their business but I do feel sympathy for the family and friends of this man as well as for the horses.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Like I been asking just how huge were the horses? I've never seen anything thats answered that yet. 15 full sized over 1 ton horses with two feet of space each ( not even sure you could cram them in? Or 15 weanling draft horses that could easily fit </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

County...while I do agree with your assesment of the death of this man...I have to disagree with 15 any size equines fitting comfortably into a 30' trailer. Unless they're minis. 15 weanling drafts still would not fit in that trailer the way a trailer is supposed to be loaded...and would most likely be way over the weight allowed.
I'd also like to mention that your opinions would be much better received in public if they weren't delivered with all the subtlety of a cattle prod.

[county]

What was it a 30 foot trailer? How wide? I've easily put 15 feeder calves in a 30 foot trailer. And your right maybe my opinions would be better recived with a differant way. Just as maybe others would be without personal attacks from their first post.

[Fancy]

Too bad that so many threads on this board disintegrate into sniping matches. Several people have made some very good point, but they have been overlooked in the brawl that has claimed this thread.

[jetsmom]

For what it's worth here is some additional info on the wreck-
According to the vet that was called to the scene, there was no paperwork on any of the horses in the trailer. She was told that there was another full trailer traveling in front of the one that crashed, and that they had all of the paperwork. That trailer/paperwork was not at the scene.
My question is now, isn't it required by law that trailer drivers each must have in their possession, the paperwork for each horse being transported? (Coggins, health cert, etc)
I am working on finding out the approximate ages of the horses, although to be honest, even 15 draft weanlings would be a tight fit.

[Duffy]

I guess I need to repeat myself. I would condemn ANY person, whether they were pro-slaughter or anti-slaughter for hauling 15 horses of ANY kind in a 30' rig. Period. End of story.

That said, the more I hear about this character...

[ProzacPuppy]

I don't see it so much *celebrating* death as congratulating whatever gods you believe are at work for doing their part to clean up the environment http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

I would feel basically as satisfied if someone who clubs baby seals to death was turned into a polar bear snack while skinning this victim. A legal occupation as well but it would still be rather satisfying. Karma.

[Fancy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ProzacPuppy:
I would feel basically as satisfied if someone who clubs baby seals to death was turned into a polar bear snack while skinning this victim. A legal occupation as well but it would still be rather satisfying. Karma. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup! A Higher Power intervened. Mr Ryan is before that Power as we speak--we don't need to do anything at all.

[MSP]

I have been trying to ingnore this thread, I thought surely this would not go on for too long. As some one mentioned this will come up on a search engine, that is how I came to COTH. What purpose will any of this serve. Are you going to press charges against his greeving family for having too many horses in a trailer? He is gone, he will not be hauling any more horses. Sometimes its best to be silent.

[Fancy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Duffy:
I guess I need to repeat myself. I would condemn ANY person, whether they were pro-slaughter or anti-slaughter for hauling 15 horses of ANY kind in a 30' rig. Period. End of story. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly!

[jetsmom]

Can anyone answer my question about paperwork required?

[MistyBlue]

I'm pretty sure if the drafts were all weanlings the press would've had a field day with that and the words "Baby horses in accident" would have been emblazoned on the article.
Weanling drafts seem to be around 500 lbs or so...that's 7500 lbs. The weight's not as scary as the size of these weanlings...figure about 14hh each? So 15 large ponies would be fine to cram into a 30 foot trailer? Feeder calves are much smaller than weanling drafts...by quite a bit. And still...due to shift and room available I wouldn't haul 15 feeder calves in a 30'. This trailer, IMO, was drastically over packed. I can't even imagine 15 full grown or even yearling drafts fitting into a trailer that size.
But as for the death of this person...karma or not...it's not even remotely human nor humane to comment negatively on his death where his family might very well see it. My family were farmers growing up...we did slaughter our own meat. Friends of mine did the same...they were Jewish and slaughtered Kosher. I wouldn't condone the death of any of these people.
People who work in each county's dog pound kill quite a few animals annually, are we to celebrate their deaths? And please don't give me the rhetoric "But euthanasia is kinder than slaughter." In most cases yes it is...but not in every one. Just as slaughter can go wrong with an animal so can euthanizing. I've seen it and my vet and I have had quite a few discussions on it. If it goes wrong once in a while for the vets...imagine what happens in pounds?
I do NOT agree with equine slaughter on it's principles alone for the fact that I love horses and hate to see them slaughtered. I do NOT agree with over-packing a trailer. I do NOT agree with the past trailering accidents that have happened and the deaths of horses then either. But...it's horrendous and inhumane to print such vitriol out on a public board. This person wasn't clubbing baby seals...which BTW *is* illegal.

[ProzacPuppy]

I thought the seal hunts were legal- esp since no one except PETA ever tries to do anything to stop them.

I suppose my *festive* attitude is not so much that he was "allegedly" involved in some facet of equine slaughter but the fact that he has been documented, for an extended period of time, being abusive and inhumane to his victims.

Could he not have shown a little kindness and compassion for this cargo before taking them to their death?

NAAAAH-- it would have cut into his "blood profits". I personally hold anyone who makes their living off of the pain and suffering of others in pretty damn low esteem.

[Lildunhorse]

Jetsmom, the paperwork must be in the driver's possession.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jetsmom:
Can anyone answer my question about paperwork required? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[jetsmom]

Thanks Lildunhorse. Seems like a lot of the slaughter transporters that own their own companies have a problem with having the proper paperwork on hand. Didn't the Ramey's have the same problem when one of their trucks crashed last year? I seem to remember something about improper paperwork. But then we are reminded by those that he was engaged in legal activites...uh, yeah.

[x]

OK
The one question noone knows the answer to is "how wide was the trailer". If it was a wider stock trailer, it probably wasn't that overloaded. If it was an 8' wide by 30' long trailer, then you'd probably be fine with 15 tied head-to-tail cross-wise. And my guess is that it might have been a 32' or 36' trailer--simply because I think those sizes may be a little more common than 30'. In addition, we don't know the size of the drafts. Finally, were they all drafts, or were some light horses/crosses/ponies?
Remember: the tighter the horses are packed, the better they ride--less room to kick, move, act up. Years ago all the two-horse trailers available were barely 5' wide; the wider trailers are a recent phenomenon. And while I, too, like more room, for many years horses hauled fine on the smaller trailers. Think about how many polo ponies will haul on a trailer.
A 30' stock trailer is in no way just designed for 8 horses; I haul 8 horses all the time with a 20' stock trailer to shows and other functions, and on occasion more. With 8 horses on there is plenty of room...I don't even have to put them head-to-tail. And I've even included 1800# drafts in the mix. I'd never want a 30' trailer if I could only haul 8 horses--there'd have to be alot of wasted space!
The limiting amount on what you can haul is what the axles/hitch are rated for, and some of the better stock trailers are designed with extra-heavy axles to take drafts and other large animals.

[bryn]

These were adult drafts. This wreck was not anywhere near the Ramey wreck. Ramey was traveling from Minnesota through Indiana north to south into Kentucky. Ryan was traveling from Illinois across Indiana west to east into Kentucky. Ramey lives in the northeastern part of Kentucky. Ryan lives much farther west and south than Ramey. These guys know if they drive late no one will pull them over to check paperwork. Main reason? Because the State Highway patrol does not want to find a problem which would require confiscation of the animals. They turn a blind eye. A couple weeks back a well known slaughter buyer was hauling an overloaded trailer from Sugarcreek, speeding well over the speed limit in the rain without any visible plates on his vehicle. He knew no one would pull him over.

[onthebit12000]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A couple weeks back a well known slaughter buyer was hauling an overloaded trailer from Sugarcreek, speeding well over the speed limit in the rain without any visible plates on his vehicle. He knew no one would pull him over. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bryn,

That incident was just last week and if you recall, the person who was tailing the load called the state police at least a half dozen times in several different counties and still NO one would pull this guy over! According to the "tail", the truck was going at times in excess of 80 mph with a jam packed load of drafties!

[bryn]

onthebit, my point exactly.

[perfectionist]

I guess I opened a can of big worms when I started this topic. I must admit I have had some similar thoughts as what some people have posted, but I would not put them in print.

I just found this wreck to be ironic to be almost one year since the Ramey wreck. That was the thing that struck me so profoundly.

Regarding the trailer, I think it mentions somewhere in the article about it being "enclosed" so I wonder what type of trailer this actually was. If this was a stock trailer as I use for cattle, it is difficult to put non-draft horses in it comfortably because of the headroom.

I will find out more about this because I know someone that has been to his farm. He did a lot of trading of riding horses and supposedly has not been buying as many killer horses as he once did. But I remember several years ago he seemed to have a "circuit" he drove here in KY roaming the country picking up horses. He has sons or other members of the family that will continue in the business so I have heard.....

[alabama]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MistyBlue:
[QUOTE]I just can't feel sorry for a man like that. Jingles for those poor horse he killed in the accident, and the 13 others, as for him, I hope his death was slow and painful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is the quote that did me in. I don't want any creature, man or animal, to suffer a slow and painful death.
I'm sorry for every horse that died because of him, but until people stop just breeding willy nilly, there are going to be too many horses. It sucks. But still to wish for someone a painful death???

[luvmytbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by perfectionist:



I will find out more about this because I know someone that has been to his farm.

He has sons or other members of the family that will continue in the business so I have heard..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I hope you can find out more. The trailers I have seen bringing in the FULL GROWN drafts at Shepherdsville were stocktrailers. He would unload about eight drafts from the trailer.


Scary thought about his other family members continueing the business. I hope it is just a rumour and does not become a fact.

[ProzacPuppy]

There is no doubt in my mind his sons will carry on "the family business".

Alabama- IMO the point is not that he is go between for the slaughter plants but that he can treat his cargo so inhumanely.

As Winston Churchill said "If you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite". Sort of applies to folks like this too.

[philosoraptor]

There is justice in the world!

I hope you're wrong about his sons. Too bad they were raised to carry on his business of trading cruelty for money. Why does the love of money make people blind to wrong they do? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Too bad the only thing that could stop this man from his greedy, evil ways was a tragedy. 15 drafts in a 30' trailer?! How wrong is that? People like him make me sick. If nothing else, it was downright unsafe and stupid.

I only hope a few of the pro-slaughter & pro-big-broker people see this. Some people don't want to see the truth about how people who broker in large numbers of horses often treat them: greed over decency.

[2 tbs]

Take issue with the business of slaughter. Take issue with the means of transport.
Do NOT be publically "relieved" "pleased" "what comes around goes around" "there is a god" about a persons death.

What comes around goes around? You bet and also: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Don't like what he did for a living? Neither do I. Did he deserve to die because that's how he earned his income? Nope. Oh, and just because he died in an accident does not mean that the other hundred people driving horses to slaughter won't jump on the chance to pick up his routes and make some extra money for their families.

What kind of people are we? To continually smile at the loss of human life...even if we didn't like who they were or what they did. It is shameful to express such contempt for someone in public http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Oh and the articles/news stories aren't always correct. It's ok to argue with them when it's making horses seem bad but suddenly someone who is lacking respect due to his job is in the news and what is said about that particular incident is taken as cold hard fact http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. Point is...we don't know all the facts and probably never will. Let's keep the "how horrid for the horses" and "there is a god" comments in separate contexts and not say he got what he deserved because some reporter said he crammed horses into a trailer (whether he did or not does not justify his death).

[greysandbays]

I'm sure there's some very bad Karma in maliciously approving of someone's ill fortune. If being on the receiving end of life's rotten deals is "punishment" for something, then we'd all best be totalling up and atoning for the errors of our ways and quit worrying about other people's "sins".

What's that about removing the log from your own eye before going ballistic about the speck in your neighbor's eye?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[alabama]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ProzacPuppy:
Alabama- IMO the point is not that he is go between for the slaughter plants but that he can treat his cargo so inhumanely.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Believe me, I have no love for the slaughter industry. But I know that "facts" routinely get misreported. Look at all the hysterical reports out of New Orleans after Katrina - rapes, murders, snipers. They are turning out to be untrue.

If the guy did what was reported, then yeah Karma may have gotten him. But I can't wish a slow and painful death on anyone. Someone close died a slow and painful death after an accident. Wrong place wrong time? Or did old karma catch up? Either way, slow and painful hurts more than just the person that dies.

[ProzacPuppy]

Alabama - Actually, I wasn't the one who wished for a "slow and painful". I thought *true* karma would have given him a death paralleling his equine victims'. "An eye for an eye" in a literal sense.

As for the "reports not being true": What has been said in regards to Superdome (and Astrodome) reports of violent crimes being committed is that "No police reports were filed". Having worked many years ago as a rape crisis counselor I can attest to the fact that many go unreported by the victims. As for murders it goes without saying that victims seldom report those crimes to police. Also, it has been noted that very often witnesses to crimes are reluctant to come forward or "get involved".

So really, who does one believe- the people who were inside those buildings and make reports that they have seen these things or the police and authorities who say "No one mentioned it to us"? To be pragmatic one assumes that there is credence to both parties statements.

[horse2poor]

Midnight blue or whatever, you can have a slow or painful death but that man didnt deserve that.you common mother http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif And for killing them 2 horses it was an accident it could happen 2 you or anyone else. Them horses on that trailer wasnt draft horses ethier mostly colts and broke horses. As him sending horses to kill yea he did we need to get rid of them some how. what are u stupid people thinking wanting to keep these horses from being killed? these horses wouldnt be worth having they'll be turned out on the highway people wanting to get rid of them. I love horses but it needs to happen. i dont agree with any of you about jim he was my friend, a person i sold horses2 and ill always remember him, he only knew how trade horses and make money aint that what everyone else is out to do?. you might have a job i wouldnt have, but im not saying nothing about yours. One last thing, you all are cold hearted i bet half of you didnt know jim and you have nothing else to do but set at your com and write sh**

[onthebit12000]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Midnight blue or whatever, you can have a slow or painful death but that man didnt deserve that.you common mother And for killing them 2 horses it was an accident it could happen 2 you or anyone else. Them horses on that trailer wasnt draft horses ethier mostly colts and broke horses. As him sending horses to kill yea he did we need to get rid of them some how. what are u stupid people thinking wanting to keep these horses from being killed? these horses wouldnt be worth having they'll be turned out on the highway people wanting to get rid of them. I love horses but it needs to happen. i dont agree with any of you about jim he was my friend, a person i sold horses2 and ill always remember him, he only knew how trade horses and make money aint that what everyone else is out to do?. you might have a job i wouldnt have, but im not saying nothing about yours. One last thing, you all are cold hearted i bet half of you didnt know jim and you have nothing else to do but set at your com and write sh** </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now there's an "intelligent" post from an intelligent poster!

[county]

For sure someone whos a better class of people rgen some have been on here.

[flyingchange]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horse2poor:
Midnight blue or whatever, you can have a slow or painful death but that man didnt deserve that.you common mother http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif And for killing them 2 horses it was an accident it could happen 2 you or anyone else. Them horses on that trailer wasnt draft horses ethier mostly colts and broke horses. As him sending horses to kill yea he did we need to get rid of them some how. what are u stupid people thinking wanting to keep these horses from being killed? these horses wouldnt be worth having they'll be turned out on the highway people wanting to get rid of them. I love horses but it needs to happen. i dont agree with any of you about jim he was my friend, a person i sold horses2 and ill always remember him, he only knew how trade horses and make money aint that what everyone else is out to do?. you might have a job i wouldnt have, but im not saying nothing about yours. One last thing, you all are cold hearted i bet half of you didnt know jim and you have nothing else to do but set at your com and write sh** </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this for real? OMG....

My heart goes out to the horses on the trailer ... esp those that had to be put down.

[flyingchange]

And as for the bible thumpin' on this board - take it somewhere else. If I wanted to be lectured to about "Christian Values" (which, in modern times is an oxymoron) I'd be at Sunday School.

[RainDancer]

Well this has been an interesting thread. I do not wish death on anyone, the only exception being people like John Wayne Gacy. County has a definite opinion but it does seem to be all about county. Horse2poor, please, if you are going to post, proof-read first. And stop the name calling. It does not make you sound intelligent. County is getting what he wants, attention. Stop responding and he has nothing to argue about.

15 drafties in a 30 ft. trailer is, IMHO, just wrong. Oh and I also despise slaughter.

Mr. Ryan was at the auction in Veerenburg, Indiana. Not Illinois, as someone said.

[county]

So tell me Raindancer does everyone else with a definate opinion just want it to be about them? Or are you just trying to pick a fight with me?

[chai]

horse2poor, I'll try to speak your language so u can understand, ok?
Horse slaughter is krool. Jammin' 15 husses on a trailah bilt for 8 aint rite.
Slaughter don't need ta happen and if u done sold horses 2 mr. ryan for slaughter, u r the 1 who has 2 have that on ur consheence.

Translation: What goes around, comes around.

[ProzacPuppy]

STOP THE INSANITY!!!!

I am completely unable to make any sense of these posts. I don't think even spellcheck would be able to decipher them.

Most of us on this board use English when we communicate. It is greatly appreciated if all would continue to do so http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

[RainDancer]

No county I am not. I could truly care less about you. But you are the one who has chosen to come on a majority anti-slaughter board and express your views in an often times self-centered way. This is not about you. You may be in the same business as Mr. Ryan but you are not Mr. Ryan. Your name is not in the title to this thread. I only stated that if a person doesn't like something, such as your posts, ignore them. You do give the full appearence of attempting to start arguments with whomever will bite. I am responding to your question. I will not respond to you any longer. You are simply not worth the wasted air to me.

[county]

I'm in the same businwess as Mr. Ryan? I think you have no clue what your talking about. And your right its not about me here, mostly its about people who are glad someone was killed. Thats very sad to me.

[hrstrader]

Hey had to reply after reading 6 pages of BS. First of Jim Ryan was a son, husband, father, uncle, church member and then a horse trader. A great human being. Jason is his only son. Greg (Buck) and Tim are his nephews. The business will continue. All their trailers are 8 wide. 15 cross bred drafts is not too many. Tightly packed horses ride better. These horses were not going to slaughter but to a camp in New Mexico. Nobody wants to slaughter draft. Too big boned ( no Meat), too heavy for most hanging rails, and to hard to truck and handle. If all you peta, horse loving individuals would cut your studs and spay your mares and not breed anything for about 10 years maybe the horse market would balance back out. Till then slaughter away. JMHO, I'll sit back and take the critisizm. Email me for my # to talk directly to me. Thanks

[gazenna]

Gee, How can some of you justify Jim Ryans line of work? unless this was all he was able to do that is. I have a BIG problem with anyone that can be a member of a church and yet lead a life where deception is used. I was unlucky enough to have purchased a horse that had come from a Ryan in Kentucky and the horse had a prexisting condition I was not aware of and I had to have her put down. I know there are a lot of people that would have just tried to sell her to recoup some of their money, but I did choose to do the right thing and put her down in a humane manor.
Now if this guy had no other job skills that was his own fault and if he did not teach his kids how important it is to have more skills then just dealing horses then shame on him as a Dad. Think about it most preachers even have outside jobs cause they cant totally count on church members to support them.
My husband had 13 years in a very big company, one day the employees were told the company was folding,by weeks end his was unemployed, and it took months to find another job. I will never feel sorry for any horse trader/killer buyer that finds themselves in the position of not being able to buy horses for the slaughter houses. I have to wonder how many of them could even collect umemployment benifits.

To the person who said he was a great man... Your kidding right?

[ProzacPuppy]

They spay mares? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Regularly? That is major surgery which could endanger the horse's life as well as significantly reduce the mare's value. The "equine community" many of us inhabit is not peopled by randomly breeding horses.

I have a problem with anyone who opts to earn a living off the suffering and death of other beings. Except for folks like Jim Ryan I would hazard a guess that very few of us on this board who are involved with horses can say that we have made a net profit, even of a few dollars, from our involvement with horses. Rather, most people I know who are horse owners and breeders would be rolling on the floor laughing until they were comatose if I even asked that question. We view horses quite differently than Mr. Ryan (and "friends"). To them, the horses are dollars and cents. To us, they are pets, partners (and sometimes foes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) and yes, for some of us, practically family. So we can't understand your world and I'm damn sure you don't understand ours. The Mr. Ryans of the world probably view those of us that pay $50,000 to buy a horse, or who spend $50,000 a year on their horse and showing, as insane. Horsetraders see a horse and immediately calculate how much he weighs and what the price per pound is right now. I see a horse and consider whether the slope of the shoulder would make him better at jumping or dressage, whether he'd impress a judge, and whether the Rambo blankets I have will fit him. My horses have passports. Do you?

We will never agree.

It has been espoused that slaughter is a necessary evil due to the number of unwanted horses. This may be true. But the process of auction, transport and slaughter should be made less terrifying, painful and inhumane for the victims. Many people are trying to have changes made to the equine slaughter industry. Jim Ryan,and those of his ilk, are/were part of the problem.

[ProzacPuppy]

Oh--- and the fact he was a father, son, husband, churchgoer yada yada, in and of itself, does not make one "a good man". Saddam Hussein was all of those things (yes, he even went to the mosque) but one cannot call him "a good man".

[TheJenners]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ProzacPuppy:
They spay mares? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Regularly? That is major surgery which could endanger the horse's life as well as significantly reduce the mare's value. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just wanted to say that spaying isn't that uncommon and it isn't major surgery anymore (it can be done laproscopically now). And I think I'll start a new topic on whether or not it decreases the mare/filly's value. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[greysandbays]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">To the person who said he was a great man... Your kidding right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And YOU'RE KIDDING, RIGHT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Is this board the Kingdom (um, excuse me! QUEENDOM) of Judgemental Hypocrits, or what?

Something tells me a person would not have to look very hard at any one of us to condemn EVERY ONE OF US as a worthless waste of skin. But I don't see the upper crust on here lining up to take their richly deserved whipping -- they're too busy ripping on somebody else.

[EBO]

Geez, and I thought the characters in Deliverance were fictional! county, I have to apologize for thinking you were a moron, you don't even come close to those ol' boys. Geez. You even spell better.

[hrstrader]

Quote "It has been espoused that slaughter is a necessary evil due to the number of unwanted horses. This may be true. But the process of auction, transport and slaughter should be made less terrifying, painful and inhumane for the victims. Many people are trying to have changes made to the equine slaughter industry. Jim Ryan,and those of his ilk, are/were part of the problem."

Ryan was not part of the problem, he was part of the solution. They need more slaughter houses or let local processing plants process horses. Then they don't have as much travel and stress.

Spaying has be come common practice. Most people prefer a gelding to a stud, what would be the difference with a spayed mare. No more woman attitude.

Horsetraders would rather sell a horse to someone other than to slaughter because it makes more. Since we are worried about our dollar and cents. If horse that are bought for kill are generally tried first. Number 1 horse meat is only about $.37 right now. Thats for 800 to 1200 lb throughbreds and standardbred and some quarter horses. Drafts are $.14.

[OldLadyOnATB]

I stopped reading this thread at the bottom of page 2. The whole idea of discussing a person's worth post humously (sp?) makes me sick.

The American Red Cross called me up the day before Hurricane Katrina to open the human shelter at Duchtown High School just north of my house. I spent 4 days with the evacuees there and later was notified by LSU that my services were needed with equine rescue. Since all was well in hand at the shelter, I went down to the barn to help out.

During the time I was at the human shelter, I got a chance to spend some time with the folks there. Many of the people there, were by most standards, unsavory. They were not people that I would typically hang around...actually, in normal everyday life, I would not even cross their paths. But...each and every one of them has a heart and a soul. I left my pets and horses at home to help them.

I very quickly realized that it could be my family that was homeless and looking for our pets/horses. Despite what you hear...I feel pretty confident that these folks would have extended a helping hand to me in my time of need.

I love my critters as much as you guys and probably more than some of the owners of the animals in my cahrge at Lamar Dixon. If the situation were to happen again, I would leave them to help another human. I would do my best to prepare them for the storm and would prepare myself for the possibility that they may be lost, sick, hurt or dead.

No matter what anyone thinks...human life will ALWAYS be more precious than that of an animal. Please, for the sake of this man's family and friends, stop this. It is so wrong.

Elizabeth

[Louise]

Thank you OldLadyOnATB.

[jetsmom]

Hosstrader...I spoke to the Vigo County Sheriff's Dept and was told the 2 that had to be put down were weanling age. How long was the NM camp going to wait to ride them? You also stated that they were draft crosses, so that would make them more valuable per pound than a purebred draft, by your own words. How about telling us which NM camp they were going to? I'll verify it and be more than happy to post the verification here. Why didn't the truck driver have the horse's paperwork Coggins, health cert, and bill of sales with him? The responding vet stated that she was told by the Sheriff's office that they were told the paperwork was in the truck that was traveling ahead of the one Mr Ryan was driving, and was not at the scene.
While I feel sorry for the families of those that lose a loved one (Even for the likes of Jeffrey Dahmer's family), I can't feel sorry for someone who perpetuates cruelty. And the BTK killer was a father, husband and church goer, so those things don't make someone a "good man".
Selling a horse to someone who wants the horse to ride instead of slaughter does not all of a sudden make someone a saint. You still have all of the horses that are transporteed inhumanely, and sold to slaughter to deal with. The slaughter of horses may be legal, but the industry is not one that is even close to being above reproach. They take horses for slaughter that are stolen, or misrepresent that they are going for slaughter, transport and kill in inhumane conditions. The truck/trailer drivers can't seem to obey laws regarding paperwork, safe loading, etc. This is the 2nd accident where there isn't paperwork on the horses. It's as if they are wanting to hide what the fate of the horse's actually will be. The slaughter houses are not willing to open their doors to let people come in and videotape the process because they know the public would be appalled.
If you are going to work in a disreputable industry, you have to expect some flack for it.
Hopefully, Beltex at least sent a sympathy card.

[cedarboy]

Death is sad. Saying that someone 'got what they deserved' or whatever is tacky and classess, IMO. We don't KNOW what that mans life was like. Even so, the end of a life is tragic.

It's oh so easy to fold our arms and turn up our noses at people who we consider less savory than ourseves, isn't it? This is a sad thread all around.

County- I actually get your point. Too bad you're not better at expressing it.

[Simone]

I'm not a fan of horse slaughter, but blaming the dealers and slaughter houses for the fact it exists, is like blaming the garbagemen for the existence of landfill sites.

The responsibility for this mess lies squarely on the shoulders of those who turn horses into "equine garbage". This would be people who breed foals there is no market for, people who use horses until they break down and then get rid of them, people who have pet horses and fail to teach them any manners or useful skills, so that there is no home for them when the owners are no longer willing or able to keep them, and lots and lots of people who are too cheap or too cowardly to euthanise a horse with an uncertain future - it's easier just to move them down the line, and sooner or later, often after a chain of less and less competent owners, they end up slaughter bound.

When breeders, trainers, and horse owners clean up their act and stop using horses as commodities - horses will no longer need to be slaughtered.

In the meantime, my sympathy goes out to Mr. Ryan's family and friends. The sudden and tragic loss of a loved one is difficult enough to deal with, without having perfect strangers gloating over the event.

[ProzacPuppy]

Would everyone be so sanctimonious if he had not hit a tree and rather taken out a minivan with a family in it? Irresponsible driving is irresponsible driving whether the guy was alone or hauling horses to slaughter. But kudos to Mr. Ryan for not killing any other humans.

As for spaying a mare- If I have specifically paid high dollar for great bloodlines and have spent tens of thousands of dollars on training and competing, why would I want to spay a mare until she has had a chance to prove herself? And even if her career is less than earthshaking, there is still a market for the proven bloodlines. A well-bred mare is usually worth more than a well-bred barren mare unless said barren horse is also that less than 1% of the equine population that are worldbeaters.

I'm also in that small minority for whom the list of humans that I would sacrifice my animals for is extremely short and depending upon the day can either include or exclude my children and husband. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[hrstrader]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Oct. 02, 2005 01:20 PM
I'm not a fan of horse slaughter, but blaming the dealers and slaughter houses for the fact it exists, is like blaming the garbagemen for the existence of landfill sites.

The responsibility for this mess lies squarely on the shoulders of those who turn horses into "equine garbage". This would be people who breed foals there is no market for, people who use horses until they break down and then get rid of them, people who have pet horses and fail to teach them any manners or useful skills, so that there is no home for them when the owners are no longer willing or able to keep them, and lots and lots of people who are too cheap or too cowardly to euthanise a horse with an uncertain future - it's easier just to move them down the line, and sooner or later, often after a chain of less and less competent owners, they end up slaughter bound.

When breeders, trainers, and horse owners clean up their act and stop using horses as commodities - horses will no longer need to be slaughtered.

In the meantime, my sympathy goes out to Mr. Ryan's family and friends. The sudden and tragic loss of a loved one is difficult enough to deal with, without having perfect strangers gloating over the event. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


AMEN on this post Simone

[perfectionist]

I cannot help but notice the similarity in this wreck and the Ramey wreck last year. In both cases, it was "reported" that the truck ahead or with the wrecked rig "went on" and did not stay with the wrecked one. Now if I was traveling with a companion or business associate, and they wrecked, you can bet your booties I would stop. <span class="ev_code_RED">Unless I had something to hide, or did not want to be around the legal authorites, or I was concerned about the welfare of the animals I had on my rig, or I needed to make time or I did not know about the wreck.</span>

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">But I thought it was odd......</span>

[jetsmom]

Well, perfectionist...I verified that with the vet who worked the scene. So it wasn't just reported that way, but sounds like it is fact. It does seem strange though, huh?

[gazenna]

grandsandbays..It was me that said that. I have a problem with the fact it was said that he was a great man. In my opinion no one is greater then anyone else. This Ryan guy is known to deceive people all in the name of money. I will admit I never met the man,but do know someone that has dealt with him and that is where the mare came from that we had to have put down. I have never had a problem admitting when I am wrong and if anyone here can prove to me that he was a great man, I will be the first to say Sorry for what I said and felt.
The Ryan guy who sold that mare to the guy who sold her to me for my daughter did not care about the broken hearts when we had to have her put down. Somone may be thinking it was our fault for not having a more indepth prepurchase exam done, but it would take to long to explain that so I will skip that part. Another thing he should have been aware of how dangerous it is to drive when he was that sleepy. He should have had the common sense to pull over or let the other guy drive unless he to was to tired and fell asleep and did not do his part to help keep the driver awake. It is to bad that 2 of the horses had to die because of that wreck, but it is good that they hit a tree and not another car or truck that may of caused even more fatalities.

[ProzacPuppy]

Did they do any toxicology tests? Or are the authorities just *assuming* it was exhaustion that caused the wreck? Could the fact that the trailer may have been overweight or unbalanced (which happens all the time with horses shifting around, even in the best of circumstances) have been a precipitating cause?

And as for the carrying of papers for the horses. It was my understanding that unless the horses are being hauled for slaughter, EVERY HORSE travelling around needs coggins. If these horses were supposed to be heading for NM, wouldn't they have had to have current coggins with them? I know my horses need their coggins and vet certificates every time they cross state lines.

[2 tbs]

What is wrong with you people???????? How can you condemn a person because of their line of work???? I do not like slaughter but I certainly won't judge someone who is in that line of business.

I am utterly ashamed of CoTH. How can we sit here and publically judge a life that we did not know?!?!?!?! How can this continue to be allowed when it is not simply opinion being expressed but rather contempt for a life no one had the pleasure of being involved with!?!?!

I'll repeat myself:

"What comes around goes around" and if that's true you all will get yours!

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" When you are all sure you have never done anything wrong to anyone else then by all means slander this man in public all you wish.

Since none of you walked in his shoes how about stopping the bashing of this mans life and rather take issue with the business of slaughter in itself with no mention of Mr. Ryan. Oh but wait. CoTH is full of the self-righteous and when they don't agree with something they find it necessary to publically humiliate themselves http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif while trying to make others look bad. Judge away - to outsiders you all look like fools for bashing a man you never knew just because of the work he did.

As far as the other rig...if it was ahead of him...anyone know how far ahead? What do you want it to do? Drive backwards on the highway so they can wait with the wreck? Gee any possibility it was a few miles ahead or travelling fast enough that when the wreck happened they were too far ahead when they realized? Wow, does everything have to be a conspiracy?

[perfectionist]

What would YOU have done if you had been traveling with that rig?

[Ridgetop Ghost]

I'm glad he's gone, and I'm not afraid to say it.

WAY TO GO, KARMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[2 tbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by perfectionist:
What would YOU have done if you had been traveling with that rig? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, do ya think they were on the CB saying...guess what, I'm running into a tree now! I mean, the other rig might not have been in eyesight and I'm sure they weren't constantly talking cuz if they were then falling asleep would not be the assumption at this point.

If it were me...well, the whole situation would depend on where I was in relation to the wreck. If I was close...yes I would have stopped, turned around, or whatever but then again, if my business were hauling from point A to point B on a schedule...if I didn't know what was going on I'd just keep going. Not everyone who handles animals loves them or views them like we do and we can't harbor such hatred then express it on a public bb like that. Take it to PT if you wanna start a "Hate all slaughter haulers" clique or something but slamming this man in his life when you don't know him and assuming a whole conspiracy behind the other rig and the missing paperwork and bla bla bla....guess what...happens all the time!!!

Just cuz I don't like what he did does not give me the right to judge him as a person and especially not slam him in public on the interent. My own personal feelings are private. Fact is...man lost his life and so did horses-sad tragic end for all no matter what line of business was involved.

[caffeinated]

All I know is that people are multidimensional. I believe in karma too, and think things come back to you- maybe that is what happened here, but I just can't be happy about it.

My own dear gramps took horses to auction where they ended up in slaughterhouses, when they were no longer useful to him. The same man who taught me to ride, encouraged my habit, and helped me improve my whole life is also the same man who took my beloved first horse to be "put down" in that unsavory manner when I was still too young to understand what that meant. It bothers me that there are some on here who might have said "good riddance" when he passed away, which is perhaps why this thread bothered me so much. All I can say is this case is sad all around. I'm sorry for his family- as unsavory as many think they are- for having such a loss. I'm sorry for the horses who were killed or injured or packed too tightly. I think it's very lucky no one else was hurt or injured.

None of us were there, none of us knew the guy. Maybe I've just had enough of sanctimonious serves-him-rightism, perhaps.

[horse2poor]

Thanks everyone for noticing my spelling! Thats the only thing you had to say. Is it because i know what im talking about? yea, i think so. HRSTRADER i like what u wrote but as for spaying the mares maybe but puting a marble in her so she doesnt come in heat at leat that's what i heard

[perfectionist]

I have not "slammed" this man. I could not help but notice similar irregularites in these two situations.

No, I do not want to PT this for you cannot reason with unreasonable people, and I assume you think everyone that has posted on this thread is unreasonable....<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 2 tbs:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by perfectionist:
What would YOU have done if you had been traveling with that rig? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, do ya think they were on the CB saying...guess what, I'm running into a tree now! I mean, the other rig might not have been in eyesight and I'm sure they weren't constantly talking cuz if they were then falling asleep would not be the assumption at this point.

If it were me...well, the whole situation would depend on where I was in relation to the wreck. If I was close...yes I would have stopped, turned around, or whatever but then again, if my business were hauling from point A to point B on a schedule...if I didn't know what was going on I'd just keep going. Not everyone who handles animals loves them or views them like we do and we can't harbor such hatred then express it on a public bb like that. Take it to PT if you wanna start a "Hate all slaughter haulers" clique or something but slamming this man in his life when you don't know him and assuming a whole conspiracy behind the other rig and the missing paperwork and bla bla bla....guess what...happens all the time!!!

Just cuz I don't like what he did does not give me the right to judge him as a person and especially not slam him in public on the interent. My own personal feelings are private. Fact is...man lost his life and so did horses-sad tragic end for all no matter what line of business was involved. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[2 tbs]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by perfectionist:
I have not "slammed" this man.

No, I do not want to PT this for you cannot reason with unreasonable people, and I assume you think everyone that has posted on this thread is unreasonable....[QUOTE]

You might not have "slammed" him but many and most others have.

Unreasonable? No. I understand the hatred for someone who does something "you" don't agree with...it's inevitable to dislike a person for doing something you wouldn't do yourself BUT! you don't do it on a public BB and make that person out to be a monger when 99% of the people here do not know him on a personal level (only from a business perspective).

My point has been, even if it is felt that he got what he deserves, that does not give anyone the right to repeatedly proclaim their joy at the loss of his life. That is disrespectful to his family all because he did a job none of us would do.

I wanna know how everyone here was brought up. I'm sure without respect as that is often the toughest thing to get on this board. I have very strong morals and opinions on how we should treat each other and I'll admit...I'm not perfect at holding to my convictions all the time. But, I don't dare condemn someone for losing their life just because they were involved with a business I'd rather not exist.

What comes around goes around.
Karma, Karma, Karma
How about Do unto others as you'd have done to you?

I am not a religious person and I do not like when religion is mixed with public but I want to know how one can sit here and condemn someone "I'm glad he's gone and I'm not afraid to say it" (in not the exact words this was said by many others) just because he had a job that was not agreed upon. I personally don't like a lot of jobs out there. I'm not going to say I'm glad someone died because I didn't agree with their line of work.

The "beef" here (sorry for the pun) has been the celebration of this mans death. Not that we dislike slaughter. I dislike it just as much as the next person but a man lost his life hauling a trailer. Yes, the reports are the trailer was overloaded or at least it was written to make us believe that. I don't like that either but I still can't celebrate the loss of life over it.

We can not judge other people by their job. That's reading a book by it's cover and it's a major part of what is wrong with society. We all feel others should do whatever makes the majority happy...guess what...America is freedom and that means not going along with the masses. It was said before, what he did was not illegal. Maybe it should change. Maybe it should stop all together. Maybe it will in time but maybe it won't - until then, those that are in that line of business are putting food on their families table just like all of us are.

Maybe I should be condemned to death because I am a collector for a medical company and I make senior citizens on a fixed social security income pay me or I send them to collections. Do I want to? No but it's the job that is paying the bill for me to keep my horses from ending up in a fate much like slaughter so I do it everyday and keep them in mind...afterall, we all have different priorites but they usually involve ourselves and our families (my family happens to be horses and cats).

[ProzacPuppy]

Get past the fact he was taking them to slaughter. Move to the fact that he was treating the animals in what can be considered a callous and inhumane way by stacking them in the trailer like that. Did he intend to go straight through to NM like that?

If you watched a hunter trainer loading up at a show with 15 horses wedged into his trailer so that it was solid packed with horseflesh on the theory that has been espoused here: "They ride better that way" and also you knew this trainer was then taking his trailer load on a multi-state jaunt without coggins, vet papers etc. (and possibly no water breaks cause lord knows it would be tough to water them in the trailer with them packed in like that) - would you say anything? Would you condone the trainer's actions? Would you just stand back and say "Thank god my trainer doesn't do that"? All because the animals are going to die doesn't mean they should be treated like any less a living sentient being before you end their life.

What if Texas decided to save prison space and put all the death row prisoners in one cell because "they cause less trouble that way"? Would anyone complain about such treatment? And the humans actually earned their trip to their ultimate end. Most of the horses' were innocent of all crimes but being unwanted by those they had served.

Eliminate Ryan's supposed destination. He still treated his cargo in what most horse owners consider a callous and inhumane way, not to mention the fact that if they were riding horses as has been stated by Ryan's comrades in arms on this board, they were required by law to have coggins papers with them, as well as vet papers if they were crossing state lines.

Add in the fact that the man (and his obviously sleeping or *whatever* co-pilot) caused an accident due to their negligence. No matter that they did not kill anyone else. It is fairly obvious that this sort of journey was nothing new to Ryan. It was only a matter of time before folks like him (and the Rameys) were going to have an accident that involved other people. Everything in the name of making a buck.

No papers- might cost money. Couldn't use another trailer and driver to spread out the horses- would cost money. Couldn't take a rest stop somewhere- most likely would have lost him money somehow.

If making your living costs other beings- animal or human- their lives, I think you need to rethink the way you make a living. AND- I'm not talking about the slaughterhouse as Ryan is not the one killing them. But he did kill the horses in the wreck, he very well could have killed his passenger, luckily didn't kill anyone else on the road.

Get beyond the supposed ultimate destination. He was wrong on alot of things- DEAD WRONG.

[2 tbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ProzacPuppy:
Get beyond the supposed ultimate destination. He was wrong on alot of things- DEAD WRONG. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have not said I disagree with what you or others said about the treatment of the animals etc etc etc etc.

I disagree with how horrid a race humans are that they can celebrate the death of a person because they don't agree with how he does his business.

He was a person. He was a human life. Do you think a band of horses in the wild get along all the time? Do you think when the one who causes all the trouble gets caught by a predator the rest of the horses celebrate the death? NO! They just go on about their business because animals do not harbor hatred and contempt for others the way people do.

The problem here is the public celebration at the loss of life. Not what he did for a business. Anyone who wants to run around Karma Karma Karma and thinks Karma isn't hunting them for being happy at the loss of life is kidding themselves. If you believe in Karma, which I do, you wouldn't dare celebrate the misfortune of another as you would be wise enough to know that you are asking for your own.

Do I like the idea of those horses in a trailer? No. Am I happy that a couple lost their lives? No. Am I going to say "yay, that guy is dead and I'm glad because he was mean to horses"? NO! Why? Because that's how children think when they haven't learned manners and respect for others.

[gazenna]

2tbs, I was brought up to care about people, and i was brought to do everything i can to not put anyone in harms way. If there was another truck and trailor ahead of them and they came from the same place and were heading to the same place then they should have been looking out for on another. Also I am not celebrating his death, I am however very happy that no other people were killed, and that other horses were not killed because of this mans carelessness. He was indeed very careless and should have made the right decision to pull over and rest, if he would have done that he would still be alive more then likely, or it could be that his number came up and if that is the case then he would have died the way he did or some other way.

[2 tbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gazenna:
2tbs, I was brought up to care about people, and i was brought to do everything i can to not put anyone in harms way. If there was another truck and trailor ahead of them and they came from the same place and were heading to the same place then they should have been looking out for on another. Also I am not celebrating his death, I am however very happy that no other people were killed, and that other horses were not killed because of this mans carelessness. He was indeed very careless and should have made the right decision to pull over and rest, if he would have done that he would still be alive more then likely, or it could be that his number came up and if that is the case then he would have died the way he did or some other way. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't disagree with any of that at all. But the comments like "I'm glad he's gone" "Yay karma" "He got what he deserved" are just uncalled for on a public BB.

Personally I have a lot of issues with the whole situation but this is not the place to discuss them or if they are discussed they should not be in a way that says "this man deserved to die". I am one who says we need to go back to the lottery system and start picking off stupid people...and by that I mean you, me, anyone who does something stupid...I don't ever exclude myself from those that make mistakes, those that do things others might not like, etc...I am not without sin nor am I without mistake.

There are a lot of selfish people in this world and as much as I would hate to see horses crammed into a trailer, I also hate to see someone happy that a man lost his life just because he didn't treat animals the way they thought they should be treated. I just have a hard time accepting that this kind of thing is appropriate...any more appropriate than how they feel he treated the animals.

[Duffy]

It wasn't ignorance that made this man treat these animals in a cruel, inhumane manner. It was his choice. He evidently didn't treat humans very well either. I don't care where he was going. (Well, I do care, but it doesn't change my feelings.)

Cruelty to those we have control over, whether it be human (kids/elderly) or animals is one of the worst crimes, imo. At the very least, I don't believe these people deserve any respect as human beings. They are not human beings, imo.

I would not have murdered the man, because that is not in my nature. But, I sure don't mind the fact that he is no longer able to do the damage that he chose to do in the past. Am I celebrating his death? No. But, I'm sure not losing any sleep over it, whereas I did for the horses he killed through his actions.

[ProzacPuppy]

I guess one of my problems is that I don't feel that every human life has the same value.

Does John Wayne Gacy's or the BTK killer's life have the same value as Mother Teresa's or Dr. Debakey's life?

I agree with Duffy- Anyone who preys upon the weak and the innocent reduces their humanity. But now we are floating into more philosophical realms.

I reiterate- the Ryans and Rameys and others of that ilk are making decisions without thought to others safety or well-being and endangering many for their own ends. They are either too self-centered or too ignorant to know that they are putting not only their own lives but the lives of others at risk with their actions, through their driving, their transport of undocumented animals etc.

[luvmytbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hrstrader:
These horses were not going to slaughter but to a camp in New Mexico. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hrstrader, how do you know?
Since he has been hushing drafts from one trailer to another at his auction house for a few months, that camp in NM must be needing lots of them. And the ones he has been shuffling around behind the scenes sure didn't lool like riding drafts! And doubtful that any kid in a camp would have legs long enough to wrap around them big bodies! So, what was the name of that camp again?

[jetsmom]

luvmytb's- I asked for the name of the camp and location in an earlier post, but got no response. I am curious about a riding camp that is buying that many horses at the END of Summer. Most places usually try to get rid of them before Winter. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting to get that info, though. The name and location of the camp are probably "with the paperwork in the other trailer".

And Hrstrader or whoever said he only sold a couple here and there to slaughter...On June 28, 2004 he sold 40 to Beltex, and between July 1, 2004 and July 22, 2004 he sold 105 horses to slaughter at Beltex. I will try and get more recent info.

[ProzacPuppy]

Let's just assume there is a camp in NM that needs a bunch of draft horses (including weanlings) for all the winter campers http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. And let's work on the assumption that what we have been told is true and there were 2 trailer loads heading from Indiana to NM with said horses.

Shouldn't the driver of the trailer that crashed have had paperwork on the horses he was carrying. I realize that there were supposedly 2 trucks and "one got ahead of the other". But, what would have happened had the trailing truck been stopped and asked for the papers on the horses? Should not the leading truck have either stayed within range or let the following truck carry their paperwork?

My trainer has been stopped on more than one occasion and asked for the paperwork on the horses. Of course all the horses have their paperwork, passports etc so it is just an inconvenience. But the state troopers do ask sometimes.

And the purpose of coggins on riding horses is to stop the spread of disease. A load of horses for a camp should have had at least current coggins.

It ticks me off to have to pay the vet for transport papers constantly and these clowns (Ryan, Ramey) just crawl around under the radar.

At least the Ryan and Ramey compatriots should call a spade a spade and own up to the fact that the horses were bound for slaughter (hence paperless).

And why the hell don't the "authorities" in these cases look any further but rather accept "they're in the other trailer"? I would bet that if my trainer had come out with that excuse there would have been negative consequences.

I've gotten past the slaughterhouse issue on this one and gotten quite pissed that greed and ignorance seem to be the norm in this occupation (and I use the term loosely) and that laws, rules and common sense appear to take a backseat to money to the above referenced "horsetraders".

[jetsmom]

I tried to get more recent slaughter info #'s from Beltex in Tarrant Co, but they don't keep it on computer. The Tarrant Co, county clerk said that he has boxes in his office with all of the paperwork showing the name of the killer buyer (seller to Beltex), and the number of horses sold to Beltex by that person. Anyone is allowed to go look at them.

[gazenna]

The mare I bought for my daughter that came from the Ryans was sold to the guy I bought her from with no health papers/coggins. I did question how he was able to get her into Indiana from Kentucy and i dont remember what he said, but I do know I was very uncomfortable with it, but he did convince me all was ok. I had a bad feeling about all of it, but my daughter fell so in love with that mare. She was very beautiful to boot. I am sure she was probley pulled from the kill horses because of she was so eye appealing, and very very sweet. Even with all the money that we spent I don't regret giving her 6 months of love and great care, that was all worth it as far as we are concerned. It just got so sad watching her struggle to get up from laying down. In all honesty I do not wish anyone dead, but I also have no use for people like Jim Ryan. To bad he never had a chance in his life time to redeme himself and start helping horses instead having such a hugh role in hurting them. I hope his kids take the time to rethink what they are doing or gonna do someday and maybe make the Ryan name a good name instead of a name that has the reputation that it has now.....

[EBO]

Well, gazeena, I think we got to read a couple of posts from his friends and supporters. They thought he DID have a good reputation. After all, he went to church, as I recall. Could there be other standards?

Like not selling lame horses to little girls,, perhaps?

If that's okay for a father to do, I can imagine the standards his sons have.

[horse2poor]

GAzenna, did you buy it at his sale or where? Just curious, because at his sale they bleed the horses there. They get checked but no coggins are given. Unless you the buyer wants to get them. And as for your horse i feel sorry for it but could it had been your fault? Maybe not feeding it or it could have got sick or even had a twisted gut? Dont'blame it on no on escpecially after 6 months!
ProZacPuppY, have you ever heard of a phone number you use when transporting horses 2 different states? Well KY has one it's like for the state. All you got 2 do is call it and a message will come on and you tell them how many horses you have on and where you are going. Then after that it gives you a number and you are safe if you get pulled over. Thats probaly what the ryans and ramey use. I also use it.

[jetsmom]

Horse2poor-they would have needed the proper paperwork to travel through the other states, though. They weren't just traveling in KY.

Is that only for KY? If not, could you post the #, and what Dept it is at? I know lots of people would love to not have to have health certs, Coggins and bill of sales on horses when they are traveling across several state lines...amazing, if we could just call a number and they let you go without it.

[luvmytbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horse2poor:
because at his sale they bleed the horses there. They get checked but no coggins are given. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

what do you mean by "they bleed them there?"
We bought horses there before, were charged for a Coggins. When asked for the results we were told, we wouldn't get them unless they were positive. Sounds a bit fishy to me!

[luvmytbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jetsmom:
luvmytb's- I asked for the name of the camp and location in an earlier post, but got no response. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jetsmom, I was being sarcastic, knowing, we would NOT get an answer. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

His supporters are still trying to make it look like he only sent to slaughter as a last resort, when in fact , public records from Beltex for instance prove otherwise.

Thank you Mary Nash for posting some of the numbers on the net for all to see, and may she rest in peace, knowing that she played a big role in bringing these dealings to light.

[ProzacPuppy]

I find it hard to believe that NO trainers I've ever met here in Texas know of a phone number that negates the need for the vet certificate. My horses travel interstate fairly often for shows. My trainer appears to know just about everyone in the hunter jumper world. I think if there were a simpler, LEGAL way to get around the need for the vet certifications he would have heard about it by now.

And if it is merely a Kentucky thing, how were these trailers planning on handling it when they drove through all those other states. From elementary school geography, I seem to remember that NM and KY are not contiguous.

If such a number does prove to be available for multistate travel outside of the state of KY, I think veterinarians all over the country will be pretty upset over the loss of some easy income http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Off the topic of ripping Mr. Ryan a new one for a moment: It is my understanding that EIA is or can be mosquito borne. Also my understanding that slaughterbound horses do not need a current negative coggins. My question is then whether it is a health threat to the equine populations in mosquito ridden areas where they are transporting large numbers of these "un-Cogginsed" horses. I realize that most often they are not parked at the slaughterhouse for extended stays, but it only takes a minute for a mosquito to bite an EIA positive horse and then move on to other local equines.

[luvmytbs]

I haven't heard of any call in for certificates either. A friend of mine who travels extensively in KY and surrounding states is require to carry a negative coggins and helsthcertificate at all times.

[jetsmom]

Prozac Puppy- I think even when quarantining a horse that was exposed to EIA, it is supposed to be no closer than 250 yards (could be feet...I don't remember). The point is, that they feel that it is spread primarily by biting flies because of the way they feed. While mosquitos could spread it they are not the main mode of transmission. Unless you are really close to a parked trailer that has an EIA pos horse who a fly bites and then immediately lands on your horse and bites him, the chances are slim that he would get it.

[gazenna]

horse2poor, No it was nothing we did, I noticed something the day we went to go look at her and questioned it then. The way she moved just did not look right. This was a TW mare and the guy told me she moved like that because of riding her up and down hills in Kentucky. She would throw her one hind out in a circular motion. I gave the guy money down on her and said I would be back to see and have my daughter ride her again. Well before I knew what was going on he showed up with her at my house. I told him then that I wanted a vet check and he said go ahead. Now keep in mind this was in NOV. I had my vet out and she said she did not know a lot about TW horses but for the easy rideing we do she should be fine. I still had a bad feeling so I had a couple of TW people come here and look and watch her move and both said something did not look right to them either. I called the guy I bought her from and told him what the vet and the people I had look at her said and inturn he dropped the price. The couple of times weather permitting my daughter rode her and she did show neurological symtoms and head tilt.We meaning us and the vet determined she had very bad advanced EPM. The vet said more then likely she had been treated at one time. We decided to just keep her as comfortable as we could and just give her the best care we could and love her till the time came to put her down. In early spring she started laying down more and had such a hard time getting up that it got to the point it was very hard to watch her struggle so we made the decision to put her to sleep. My daughter was devestated. I knew this was a bad purchase, and I am guilty of not listening to my gut, but I did not want to see my daughter upset and it just so happened I seen that anyway. So the only thing I did wrong was postpone my daughters pain. Like I said inanother post though I do not regret giving Shady some good care , love and a non horrifying end....

[Two Trees]

GOD! Two threads in one day that make me come out from under my bridge!

And why haven't I heard the pitter patter of Erin's feet?

Sorry, I don't know how to qoute, only Cut and Paste. But horse2poor posted this earlier...

Nobody wants to slaughter draft. Too big boned ( no Meat), too heavy for most hanging rails, and to hard to truck and handle. .....For some unknown reason this visual just makes me ill!.... If all you peta, horse loving individuals would cut your studs and spay your mares and not breed anything for about 10 years maybe the horse market would balance back out. Till then slaughter away. JMHO, I'll sit back and take the critisizm. Email me for my # to talk directly to me. Thanks

My email is TwoTreesPaints_QHs@Yahoo.com if you want to talk directly to me and we can have a man to man chat on the pros and cons spaying/gelding horses and humans alike.

I find it personally abhorrent that any of you would even feel relief at another persons pain and suffering.

And those of you who keep spouting off about Karma, you're racking up some points for yourself here.

While I have NEVER sold a horse to either of them, I have dealt with the Ryans and the Ramey's before. It was never pleasant. I always wanted to snatch up every horse at their yards...I certainly was tempted to put more than 15 horses on a 30 foot trailer...

Having said that...my condolences go out to his family.

[cedarboy]

It's a no-win arguement. (I'm not anti-slaughter, BTW).

If you are worried about slaughter horse, give to the rescues. CBER, etc. Contribute to saving the ones you can.

Oh, and try to talk everyone you know out of breeding.

[Two Trees]

And on the EIA issue... And please keep in mind that my information is outdated at best.

Little is actually known of Equine Infectious Anemia while more is feared about it.

It is not likely that EIA is mosquitoe borne. Much more likely that it is borne in a specific type of deer fly.

For a mosquitoe to bear the disease from animal to animal it must land, bite, draw blood from an infected animal and then WITHIN 15 minutes, land, bite another animal. There is an EIA Quarantine Camp in Louisiana that has done a remarkable amount of research on this. (I wonder what has happened to all those EIA Positive horses due to Katrina?)

While most states DO NOT have regulations regarding transport for horses bought at auction WITHOUT Coggins, most states require that ANY/ALL horses sold at Auction WITHOUT Coggins MUST BE sold for consumption.

Slaughter horses being transported from state to state to known venues dealing in slaughter horses actually may have a specific 800 number with their State Vet. Something about that specific thread does ring a bell. I'll look into that.

Most states also have restrictions for transport on horses with POSITIVE Coggins. And every state is different. Your State Vet would have specific guidelines.

For instance, Alaska does not have any guidelines as of March, 2002. While Louisiana, which has one of 5 EIA Quarantine Camps in the US, does not allow tramsport of an EIA Positive horse over statelines unless the compartment is sealed and internally climate controlled and vented! (YIKES!)

[ProzacPuppy]

Two Trees: From what you have said regarding the 800 number, it seems likely that these horses were destined for slaughter.

Regarding the EIA and fly bites- why is the fly only capable of transmitting the disease for 15 minutes or so? Are we assuming the fly dies within 20 minutes? Nor do flies stay in one place. I personally have brought quite a few home in my car from the barn http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Just curious as to the time limitations on transmittal.

Also, karma is not an all or nothing sort of thing. It is not based upon a single act but rather an enriching or diminishing of the whole. A lifetime of transgressions vs a single utterance. Now, lets all cleanse our auras...

[luvmytbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hrstrader:
Nobody wants to slaughter draft. Too big boned ( no Meat), too heavy for most hanging rails, and to hard to truck and handle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah, that's why they sent the drafts to Japan alive to be slaughtered there? Since Japanese prefer drafts over any other breed.
And I guess the 6 to 8 amish drafts at each of Jim Ryan's sale this past summer, which were located in the kill pen (they were sad looking animals) were just there for recreation purposes?

Please, pro slaughter people, do the research in real life situations; don't depend on what you are being told by folks trying to defend their business by making it look better.

[Two Trees]

AHHHH But Prozac therein lies the rub!!! You cannot honestly think that these are "single utterances". Comments have been made much too quickly for these to be one time single utterances. And to speak poorly of the dead is bad karma...or should be. And Karma is an all encompassing thing. However, one can always offset the harm one has done.

As for the time frame...it has nothing to do with the "shelf life" of the Vector. The "organism" (or whatever you want to call it) that causes EIA can only survive outside a host for 15 minutes.

Virologists would have a better understanding of it, but my take is that the viability of the organism decreases by half every minute that it is outside its' host. So it wouldn't be very potent, if it all, outside of 10 minutes.

[MistyBlue]

Slaughter buyer in this country back in the 70's and 80's didn;t buy the drafts at auctions that I ever witnessed. The average kill purcahse was made on horses between 13-16hh...there is a definite pattern when you watch auctions every week for a few years where there are kill buyers. I don;t know how often they take drafts now...but I am someone who has minimal personal experience with kill buyers (from knowing them personally at auctions for years, I've been in a slaughter house a couple times and have been to the kill buyer's ranches) and not spitting rhetoric. Many horses were purchased with hopes of resale after a few weeks getting hay and a few rides from hired teenage kids. They made more profit that way. Downed or almost down horses were purchased...but shipped to rendering plants and shot when there. Or shot before loading and stacked. (gruesome I know, sorry for the graphic description)
I am personally against slaughter from an emotional stand point...but at this time I don't know what other options there are except forcing better transportaion and treatment.

[DutchOwner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Two Trees:

For instance, Alaska does not have any guidelines as of March, 2002. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Complete baloney...Alaska has one of the strictest import guidelines, and has for at least 12 years (the first time my family had a horse imported to Alaska).

You have to have an international health certificate (they check at the Alaskan border too, not just the Canadian border), an Alaskan import certificate and import number (you have to have the vet in the lower 48 call the Alaska state vet's office to get this), and a negative EIA administered with an AGID test specifically. Both health certificates must have been issued within 30 days of importation. This means that timing is essential. Also, they often ask for proof of ownership or a power of attorney from the actual owner if you are hauling for someone else. They will ask you where you came from, and cross check it with states that are currently on quarantine. This last summer there was a quarantine on Texas, Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico due to Vesicular Stomatitis; a horse I was hauling up was coming from Texas, and after the quarantine on Texas was lifted, we had to have him shipped up an alternate route so he didn't even go through the quarantined states...otherwise Alaska would have denied him entrance.

Edited to add:

I am not the least bit ashamed to say that I thanked god in my prayers last night that this person was taken off of our planet. I only hope that the sufferings he caused here are being turned on him in the hereafter; or, at least he was shown by the divine the error of his ways and will spend eternity with that on his conscience.

I will never shed a tear, and my heart will rejoice a little, when truly selfish, repugnant, and evil-hearted people are purged from society. A person who routinely shoves horses into trailers and profits in cruelty, pain, and death fall into that category, in my book anyway.

And, yes, we can judge people by their profession. People make choices in life, and are judged by those choices. One of the major choices you make in life is how you will earn a living; I chose to go to law school, and will be judged based on that decision. I have resigned myself to a life of lawyer jokes, unwanted phone calls from unknown relatives seeking legal advice, and the perpetual lingering possibility of being sued for malpractice.

Mr. Ryan made his choice of profession, and hence chose how he would be judged. It wasn't a one time mistake, it was a conscious decision and ongoing behavior.

[Two Trees]

DutchOwner, I apologize. I made my statement based on information I had gotten when discussing this with a state vet for NJ about the year 2002.

And I was not talking about inportation, but rather the transportation of POSITIVE EIA horses. Which, I believe that Alaska does not have any guidelines for.

In fact, I'm not sure that Alaska has EVER had a horse test positive for EIA. So the issue of transporting a positive horse would never have come up. I'm sorry if I ruffled your feathers. I'll check the information.

[DutchOwner]

Well, considering you have to have a *negative* EIA to get through the border, I would assume you can't import a positive horse.

I'm not sure if we've ever had a positive case though...that's a good question.

You didn't ruffle my feathers, sorry if I came across that way; I just wanted to clarify the issue. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Two Trees]

18 AAC 36.035. EQUINES.
An equine imported into the state must be accompanied by a permit and a health certificate which, for an equine over six months old, must include certification that the equine has been tested negative for equine infectious anemia (EIA) within 60 days before the date of importation. The EIA test must have been performed at a laboratory approved by the United States Department of Agriculture to conduct that test.

Copied from http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/dawson/eia/ak_eia.htm

[Two Trees]

How do you all edit your tpoics without having to write a new post?

I also would like to add DutchOwner, that I found nothing that states that horses already in Alaska are required to have current negative coggins tests. Only if they want to cross the state line.

I wonder where I could find out about previous cases of EIA in Alaska.

[MistyBlue]

Two Trees...at the bottom of the posts on this thread...you'll notice on your computer that only posts from *you* have an "eraser" option on the bottom. Click on that eraser on the post you want to edit...then you can change anything in the post. Then just click "post" again.

[HHG-N]

Wow. I am really shocked at how sick some of the people are on this board. I hope Jim Ryan's family does not read this.

[DutchOwner]

Two Trees:

Honestly, we never had ours tested unless we were going somewhere that required it (shows, clinics, etc.) So, I don't think there is a requirement to continuously test.

As for finding out if there has ever been a positive test, I would contact the state vet's office; the number is (907) 745-3236. His name is Dr. Robert Gerlach, but that number will probably get you the office help.

I just can't recall a positive EIA test...I'd be surprised if there was and I had never heard about it. The only major outbreak I can think of was a Strangles outbreak a few years back.

[county]

EIA is probably the most misunderstood horse disease there is. Everyone should learn how its transmitted and by what. Its not nearly as easy to be transmitted as some think and only can be done under certain conditions and bt only a couple types flies except in rare cases. And each state has differant testing requirements all from the states I travel in are mainly a joke. Most are once a year, when dealing with 45 day incubation period its not much good.

[Two Trees]

DutchOwner...this link has EIA statistics for Alaska. The first case was 1971.

Of course it also says that the EIA virus can live outside the host for up 96 hours! HOLY Cucumber Bat Woman!

Whoops! Forgot to add the link.

http://www.alaskahorsejournal.com/E.I.A..htm

[ProzacPuppy]

TwoTrees- There is no death, merely movement to another life, therefore you cannot truly speak ill of the dead for they do not exist.
(I sound like a bad John Carradine impersonation, "Grasshopper" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

RE: EIA and hosts- So the "organism" is not living, merely existing while in transit, when it is residing in the fly? Stupid question here- why can't it survive within the fly (or carrier) for any length of time (besides the incredibly short lifespan of a fly)? I would have thought that the fly would be a carrier of the organism until it died.

My horses get tested about every 6-9 months on average and from the way the vets act one would think that this was a disease that was just one fly bite from felling my horses. Appears that the chances of acquiring it are much much less than one would be led to believe.

And now back to your regularly scheduled program.

[MistyBlue]

Prozac Puppy...that "grass hopper" statement made my head hurt! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I have a hard enough time following the story line of Lost on TV, LOL! Don't confuse me more.

[jetsmom]

Horse and deer flys are the more common means of transmission for EIA because of how they feed. Their bite is painful, and the horse will swish it's tail or stomp it's feet, thereby interrupting the fly's feeding. The fly will go to the next closest horse to feed, or if there isn't another horse close by, will return to the original one and continue feeding. An EIA positive horse that has symptoms and is bitten by a fly is more likely to transmit the virus than a fly that bites an asymptomatic horse. (According to MSU- A fly biting and Asymptomatic horse has only a 1 in six million chance of spreading the virus).
A mosquito has less of a chance of spreading the virus because of how they feed. A mosqito can bite without causing as much pain, so they frequently can finish feeding without being interrupted. One website (MSU?) stated that there is some research to show that the saliva of mosquitos is thought to contain a chemical that nuetralizes the virus.

Most of the websites state the virus can be transmitted for 30 min to 4 hrs from a fly biting an infected horse and then going to the next one. Quarentine distances were all pretty consistant on the websites as being stated as 200 yards. (The feeling was that if the horses were that far apart the fly would continue to feed on the infected horse and not go fly off further looking for a new horse.) These quarantine distances were for quarantining a horse not known to be infected from another horse not known to be infected. (ie- you get a horse from a barn where there was a case of pos EIA. Your horse that you buy tests neg, so you have state vet seal trailer, take it home, and then quarantine 200 yds away from your other healthy horses for 45 days, retest, and if neg, come off quarantine.) A horse that tests pos is put down or sent to a quarantine facility. If you were going to quarantine a positive horse on your prop, it has to be in a fly proof screened environment away from other horses (MSU).

[ProzacPuppy]

Jetsmom- Doesn't sound like this disease is actually all the easy to transmit outside of a single property. If your horse never travels it seems that the disease would (or should) be self-limiting to the immediate herd on a single property.

Meanwhile, I'm glad that horseshows require current coggins on all competitors. I can see how the show world could be a contributor to major spread of the disease.

Misty Blue- Sorry about that. Just waxing philosophical and attempting to prove that I actually do remember anything from college http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

[Realistic]

All of these posts jump from one subject to another. Some are related and others need to be on an entirely different post. However, I will say that condemning a man whether dead or alive is immoral and just plain wrong. I will not bring religion into this, however, several people that have post threads on this particular issue have judged this man unjustly. The reason I have stated this is because for one, most did not know the man and are judging him on the speculation that he was taking the horses on his trailer to a slaughter house. Secondly, people are speculating that he had 15 huge drafts on his trailer, which was not the case. Mr. Ryan had two draft horses the rest were colts and riders. Therefore, the horses were not inhumanely loaded on a 30’ by 8’ trailer. If anyone has used a trailer of this size they would know exactly how much room the horses had to move. Mr. Ryan might have sold horses to slaughter, but that was not his only means of income. He also sold to the public. As far as the slaughter issue, we all know it is legal. However, some of you feel it is immoral. So is condemning a man. If you feel there needs to be changes on how they slaughter horses or feel as if it is inhumane, then you need to attack the source, which are the slaughter houses. Not the individual taking the horses to the slaughter house. If you are anti-slaughter you do not need to take your horse to the horse sale if you have a horse that you feel you can not take care of or you can’t afford to have euthanized. Because surely you’re intelligent enough to know that it will go to slaughter. Taking an unfit horse to the horse sale is just passing the buck to someone else. People that are anti-slaughter in my mind are people who have never dealt with an unfit horse. Let’s get realistic; the majority of horses that go to slaughter are not horses that would have been sold to the public for individual pleasure or usage. Furthermore, there needs to be some sort of population control on every species, whether it is contraception for humans, or animals. If people keep breeding their horses continuously, we will remain to have slaughter houses. We have dog pounds that euthanize thousands of dogs and cats every day. We have hunting seasons for just about every kind of animal that is not protected or extinct and we have that for a reason POPULATION CONTROL! It might not be a pretty picture, but it is reality. That’s life.
Moreover, I have noticed that several jump to conclusions on this site and start slamming individuals. I don’t know if the ones that were doing individual attacks on Jim Ryan on this post was aware of the rules that you had to agree to in order to get on this site, but they have broke the first two rules which are:
Rule #1: Be nice, be respectful, and be polite.
Disagreement and discussion are fine; flaming and personal attacks are not.
Rule #2: The primary purpose of this board is to discuss issues, not individuals.

My condolences go out to the Ryan Family.

[jetsmom]

Realistic-You need to do some research on slaughter. You are so far off on some of your "facts".

Fact- 92% of the horses slaughtered are young, sound and rideable. Only 8% are either too old, crippled or dangerous.

Fact- Slaughter exists not because of too many horses, but because of a demand for horse meat for human consumption overseas. There were over 300,000 horses slaughtered in the late 80's. Around 65000 are slaughtered now. We are not overrun with horses.

Fact- THere are many people who have had horses stolen that go to slaughter, many who have had buyers lie about wanting to provide a good home for a horse only to sell it to slaughter (in fact the Ryans were co-defendents that lost in a lawsuit just for that very thing.), and people who because of the secretive/underhanded nature of auction houses and slaughter buyers are not aware that killer buyers attend the aution. It's not as if the auctions have signs posted warning sellers that killer buyers are present. And slaughter buyers don't exactly advertise their presence.

Fact- Horse slaughter does not exist as population control, like hunting.


You need to go on CBER's website and look at the feedlot horses, sponsored horses, and adopted horses to get a true idea of what types of horses are being slaughtered. They are not all "unfit". In fact most are really nice. The link is below...

CBER link (http://www.columbiabasinequinerescue.org)

[Two Trees]

Jetsmom-

You need to re-check your own facts. The Ryans were charged you are correct. But the case was DISMISSED due to improper venue.

IN FACT, you're the one who posted the link to that public record.

If you're going to attack someone, let's do it honestly.

[ProzacPuppy]

Improper venue = Technicality but does not equal innocent of charges.

Realistic - Get a grip. You're new. Attacking one another is what we do here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Read any thread on a controversial subject, from Hurricane Katrina to the presidential elections to horse slaughter.

My opinion is that any animal that comes under your dominion you are responsible for. If you cannot find a decent life and death for that animal, then euthanize it yourself. And if you can't pay for euthanasia then possibly you really don't have the money to own a horse in the first place. (Go ahead, flame me- horses are expensive, no way around it. If you can't afford &lt;$1000 to end the life of a horse whose life no longer has value or who is suffering then you really shouldn't have had the horse. Their life is your responsibility.)

Also, the rambling from subject to subject was actually related to the original issue of Ryan's slaughter or camp bound victims. The man was operating on the edge of legal, ethical and responsible. We were just debating the depth of his legality, ethics and responsibility.

Bottom line- The man has a history of selling horses to slaughter, documented bad business dealings including misrepresentation (and downright lying), the man skirted the law regarding documentation on his cargo, and the man acted in a manner that endangered the public as well as himself.

All in all, I'd say he operated on the societal fringe. And in my book that does not earn him any respect or my concern and sorrow.

He's the type of person that has given the term "horse trader" the derogatory connotation which it has.

[Two Trees]

Whether he was guilty of the charges or not, we cannot....WE MUST NOT imply otherwise, per COTH's Terms of Service. Why have the moderators not...er...ah...hhmmm... reminded us of that?

Regardless of how I feel about Mr. Ryan's moral decisions, he was technically towing the line of legality.

I heard a quote somewhere from someone and for some reason I think Sonesta would know who to give credit to...There is what's ethical, what's moral and what's legal and they are not often the same. (Or something like that.)

And I also learned a german phrase the other night thanks to Boston Legal...I'm sure my spelling is way off but let's see if anyone else knows the meaning.

SCHAUTEN FREUDA

[Simone]

Two Trees - the German word is "Schadenfreude". There is no exact English equivalent, but it basically means to derive happiness from the misfortune of others.

[Two Trees]

EXACTLY!! Thank you Simone!

[jetsmom]

You need to re-read the case. The case I linked to was when the Burgess appealed. The appeal was denied and the original case decision was affirmed, which found FOR the original owner of the horses. The Burgess's appealed and lost. Ms Taylor was the original owner in the original suit. She won the case against the Burgess's. THe Burgess's appeal was dismissed and the original findings upheld.
The Ryans were not on there because of improper venue, not because he was found innocent. THe orig owner of the horses did get lied to about what was going to happen to the horses. Realistic was stating that people know what is going to happen when they sell to slaughter. My point in the above post was that many horse owners are lied to by killer buyers intending to slaughter horses. The Ryans were named as co defendents. The fact that the Ryans were left off due to improper venue doesn't change the fact that the orig owner was lied to and won the court case.



And we are still waiting for the name of the NM riding camp and name of the town it is in, as well as the phone number that lets you travel across state lines with no paperwork on your horses you are transporting.

[Two Trees]

I'm sorry dear, but you're wrong.

According to the case that you linked to, the case against the Burgess' family was upheld. Randolph was dismissed for lack of jurisdiction, Jackso and the Ryans were dismissed for lack of proper venue.

There is absolutely nothing in that court record which substantiates YOUR written claims as to his guilt.

Unfortunately my browser is not allowing me to copy to the specific paragraph regarding this, but it is clearly defined in the bottom chapter of the second page of the court record.

http://www.nabr.org/animallaw/emotionaldistress/burgessvtaylor2001ky.pdf

Unless you can come up with public record, please correct your statement.

[jetsmom]

Two trees- "why bless your heart, dear"

[greysandbays]

Regarding the "fact" thrown around that there were 300,000 horses slaughtered in the '80s and only 65,000 now, are we SURE that there has not been a change in the way slaughter horses are classified and accounted for or something? The modern figure seems to be horses slaughtered for human consumption. Do we know for a fact that the '80s figure is only the horses slaughtered for human consumption, or does it also include all the dog food and other slaughter as well?

There was a time when horses were rounded up and slaughtered for use in pet food, chicken feed, fertilizer and various other by-products, as a means of disposing of "excess" horses made redundant by the tractor and automobile. If the older counting process included any of these sort or horses but doesn't anymore because those are now counted as going to rendering plants instead of "slaughter" plants, then it does not represent an accurate statistic.

[county]

Rendering plants don't take live animals only those already dead.

[Two Trees]

Well the Washington Post recently had an article regarding a Texas slaughter house that killed the animals here and transported their bodies overseas.

What exactly is the difference between a rendering plant and a slaughter house if the end result is the same?

GreysandBays that was a wonderful point. And I wonder what the answers to your questions are.

[jetsmom]

A rendering plant is who you call to come pick up dead livestock. The parts are not for human consumption. I don't know if they still use the hooves for glue and gelatin, but that is what they used to do. They can "render" the parts for other things...hides, decorative cow skulls, etc.

Slaughter houses take live animals and kill them, and can be for human consumption. Maybe you know, county, if USDA inspectors have to be present at renderers? I know they are required at slaughter houses.

[MistyBlue]

Again, not singling anyone out but I do have to wonder about certain "facsts" listed here.
I've been to feed lots and slaughterhouses and seen what they have waiting around to be processed. It definitely was not 92% young, healthy and able to be ridden horses. More like 50/50 tops. And of those...I'm giving the nenefit of the doubt to some of the 50% of the rideable ones considering the pathetic shape they were in. I did see a lot of foundered horses standing in the classic founder stance. And quite a few older to old Amish cart horses. Many were pretty thin...and were being fed to bulk up for a dew weeks before being processed...after feeding them up many were then evaluated and the offered for sale instead of processing because they made more on sales horses than rendered ones.
But as far as being mostly young healthy horses...this isn't what I've seen. Most arrived in next to deplorable body conditions...some due to the transport I'm sure but horses don't lose 300-400 lbs on a trailer ride. But most were banged and knicked up from the trailer ride or being in with other agressive horses.
And horses are slaughtered due to there being a market for horsemeat overseas. But...most horses going to slaughter come from auctions. People sending their horses to auctions that are frequented by meat buyers *know* there's a good chance their horse isn't going to be a family pet. They might not have been sold directly to slaughter...and the owners might have pulled the wool over their own eyes about where their horse might end up (oh no, not MY horse) when they sent it to auction...but the horses weren't wanted anymore by their particular owners. It's really not true that most horses at slaughter are stolen or tricked into being there.
Still, not saying I agree with slaughter...

[county]

A slaughter house actually slaughters animals for meat to be eaten. A rendering plant renders already dead animals and remains from the slaughter house into many products.

[Two Trees]

UGH I think I'm going to be ill....I did just eat lunch!

Why did I even ask?!?!?!

[ProzacPuppy]

I believe that it was said in an earlier post that they don't use horses in processed dog food anymore. True? (My dogs eat "the other red meat"- salmon, but I had always disliked the regular kibble due to the fact I had heard they used horse).

[MistyBlue]

I'm not 100% positive, but I think some of the really cheap brands of dry and wet dog food still might use horsemeat. But I think they just list it as "meat." I think that brand carried at WalMart and Job Lot does.(Good Boy or Old Roy or something like that) But that would come from a rendering plant instead of a slaughter I would guess.

[gazenna]

Someone told me that Joy dog food also has horse meat in it...

[Duffy]

Certainly OT, but my father has always had a rather different sense of humor. One Easter, the "easter bunny" left me a can of dog food (horse meat) in my basket. My mother almost took a 2x4 to him!

[Two Trees]

I don't think I'm EVER going to threaten any of my horses with being used to feed my rather extensive pack of dogs EVER again!!!!


Well, maybe a few of them! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[hrstrader]

quote:
Originally posted by hrstrader:
These horses were not going to slaughter but to a camp in New Mexico.


Hrstrader, how do you know?
Since he has been hushing drafts from one trailer to another at his auction house for a few months, that camp in NM must be needing lots of them. And the ones he has been shuffling around behind the scenes sure didn't lool like riding drafts! And doubtful that any kid in a camp would have legs long enough to wrap around them big bodies! So, what was the name of that camp again?

Who cares about the camp name. I will repeat they don't want drafts to kill. They are worthless. $.17 lb. Why would you want to haul these when you can haul almost 2 to 1 #1 tb or stb.'s. They bleed all horses at Sheperdsvilles as they tag them in. Have for years. Just like all Ky sales, no results to buyer unless positive or you pay $15. The vet bleeds horses by tag #'s. In Ohio they send the results to the buyer.

My condolences go out to the Ryan Family.

Btw, any Ohio or PA people come to Sugarcreek Ohio on Friday and buy some killers away from the evil killer buyer. Good luck though. Most will not give as much as they do. Also I'll be heading from Cincinnati through Columbus with about 15 killers in my 28' trailer about 1am Fri. morning. Would be happy to stop along the way and show anyone who'd like to see how well they fit in the trailer. Kinda like a glove. Would like to sell some to lighten my load but the horse market is flooded in my area.

[horse2poor]

Gazenna, hey again sorry about your horse. Was it jim Ryan that sold you your horse? or not! It dont sound like it to me because i knew him.
ProZacPuppY, The number only works if the horses are coming into Ky. The #1-502-564-3956
you can call it 24 hrs a day. I dont know if theirs other numbers for other states.
HrsTrader, I think i know you but not for sure i hope you get a good price for your killers last week they was cheap let me know how they sell!

[gazenna]

No it was not Jim Ryan, I said earlier that the guy I bought her from had said he got her from a Ryan in Kentucky. This guy I got her from goes to Kentucky and buys horses to resell here in Indiana. I had never heard of the name Ryan till then. That is why when I heard the name mentioned here last year or so I told a friend of mine about my dealings with the guy I got my mare from and where he said he had gotten her and she said that Jim Ryan is pretty well know here in Indiana by some horse traders, and this guy I got the mare from is a horse trader/dealer. Who knows maybe there is another Jim Ryan , either way be it him or not I feel the same way about his role in Horse slaughter. Like I had said before I dont regret buying her for my daughter, but on the other hand I really cant blame anyone but myself for not following my gut. The fact there was no coggins and health papers on this mare was a big red flag and I should have went after the guy who sold me the mare in the first place, but with him dropping the price I knew it come down to buyer beware. He did offer to train a young horse to make up for my daughter loss, and he did come over and I did not like what he was gonna do so I sent him on his way. I may just give you a call.....

[gazenna]

Sorry horse2poor I misread your post.

[terrygean]

I just got my copy of the police report from Ind. about the Ryan wreck. And the report states that the trailer was a 1998 30' FEAT(quess thats a Featherweight) No CDL license, Gooseneck NO TRAILER PLATE! Not surprised but will inquire with DOT And Ind. police why not! The report says:Vechicle (dually pickup pulling appox. 30' horse trailer containing 15 horses) was eastbound on I-70 when driver failed to negotiate curve in roadway ( possibly fell asleep). The vechicle travelled off roadway, down embankment, and through wooded area (Approx. 513 ft.) That separates east & westbound lanes. Vechicle continued through wooded area (initially clipping tree on driver side) until stricking tree with frontal portion of truck (causing damage also to rear of truck in collision with horse trailer).
13 horses werer rescued by Vigo Co. SD Posse, 2 horses were destroyed by Vet Beth Brown (Airport Vet) who examined all of the horses at the scene.

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hrstrader:
quote:
Originally posted by hrstrader:
These horses were not going to slaughter but to a camp in New Mexico.


Hrstrader, how do you know?
Since he has been hushing drafts from one trailer to another at his auction house for a few months, that camp in NM must be needing lots of them. And the ones he has been shuffling around behind the scenes sure didn't lool like riding drafts! And doubtful that any kid in a camp would have legs long enough to wrap around them big bodies! So, what was the name of that camp again?

Who cares about the camp name. I will repeat they don't want drafts to kill. They are worthless. $.17 lb. Why would you want to haul these when you can haul almost 2 to 1 #1 tb or stb.'s. They bleed all horses at Sheperdsvilles as they tag them in. Have for years. Just like all Ky sales, no results to buyer unless positive or you pay $15. The vet bleeds horses by tag #'s. In Ohio they send the results to the buyer.

My condolences go out to the Ryan Family.

Btw, any Ohio or PA people come to Sugarcreek Ohio on Friday and buy some killers away from the evil killer buyer. Good luck though. Most will not give as much as they do. Also I'll be heading from Cincinnati through Columbus with about 15 killers in my 28' trailer about 1am Fri. morning. Would be happy to stop along the way and show anyone who'd like to see how well they fit in the trailer. Kinda like a glove. Would like to sell some to lighten my load but the horse market is flooded in my area. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you have a CDL, and proper registration on your vechicle?

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hrstrader:
quote:
Originally posted by hrstrader:
These horses were not going to slaughter but to a camp in New Mexico.


Hrstrader, how do you know?
Since he has been hushing drafts from one trailer to another at his auction house for a few months, that camp in NM must be needing lots of them. And the ones he has been shuffling around behind the scenes sure didn't lool like riding drafts! And doubtful that any kid in a camp would have legs long enough to wrap around them big bodies! So, what was the name of that camp again?

Who cares about the camp name. I will repeat they don't want drafts to kill. They are worthless. $.17 lb. Why would you want to haul these when you can haul almost 2 to 1 #1 tb or stb.'s. They bleed all horses at Sheperdsvilles as they tag them in. Have for years. Just like all Ky sales, no results to buyer unless positive or you pay $15. The vet bleeds horses by tag #'s. In Ohio they send the results to the buyer.

My condolences go out to the Ryan Family.

Btw, any Ohio or PA people come to Sugarcreek Ohio on Friday and buy some killers away from the evil killer buyer. Good luck though. Most will not give as much as they do. Also I'll be heading from Cincinnati through Columbus with about 15 killers in my 28' trailer about 1am Fri. morning. Would be happy to stop along the way and show anyone who'd like to see how well they fit in the trailer. Kinda like a glove. Would like to sell some to lighten my load but the horse market is flooded in my area. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm just north of Sugarcreek. And YES YES I'd like to look in your trailer. Are you going next friday to Sugarcreek. Are you a regular there? What does your truck & trailer look like. Are you sure your not from KY?

[Marcella]

If the truck and trailer were registered in KY, you don't need a trailer plate. There are several other states that don't require trailer registration either.

And, if he was cited for not having the CDL because he was over the weight limit, I sort of understand, because I know of people that have been cited for being over the weight limit and not having the proper truck and trailer registration for the weight classification.

[x]

Unless you are over 26,000, you don't need a CDL...and can't get one!! I know, I haul alot, and have researched it quite a bit. It would be unusual to have a CDL with a one-ton pick-up truck hauling a 30' gooseneck trailer.

I've heard from others, also, that buy/sell for slaughter that drafts are not worth a whole lot for meat...again, large bones/less meat/larger horse more difficult to ship. While some will go, it isn't necessarily the preferred choice.

Also, anyone in the livestock-for-meat business, is going to try to make travel trips as short as possible for the animal, be it horse, beef, pig, or whatever, simply because the longer travel time the more "shrinkage".

Also, again, with regards to feed/water on a haul, they'll do what is necessary to minimize shrinkage, while staying efficient, because the longer you are on the road, the more stress on the animal. In addition, how much a horse will drink/eat on a long trip will depend in part on the time of year/temperature/weather while travelling.

Also, there are plenty of local dealers who take horses for slaughter...but they themselves do not truck them, but rather have another dealer do so. These local dealers don't necessarily seek out horses for slaughter, but rather help out the individual horse owner who needs to "ship" a horse...there are plenty of private horse owners who either don't have the means/place to bury a horse, or for some other reason can't put it down, and opt to "ship" instead; many of these are quite kind and caring people, who seek assurances that their horse will go directly to the slaughterhouse, etc.

Slaughterhouses for animals are the subject of designs to minimize stress and "shrinkage". There has been quite a bit of research in the cattle industry. Stress and shrinkage decrease profits...so it makes no sense.

Some states have laws which require dealers to disclose which horses are intended for slaughter when selling.

With regards to the horse Gazenna ended up with, you can't blame the second dealer back...who knows what the horse looked like when sold to the dealer she got him from, and who knows what terms it was sold under, etc. Most dealers, if there's a big problem like mentioned with said horse, will ship it and help buyer locate a better horse, but then we get into alot of buyers don't like the "shipping" of horses, yet the dealers are viewing horses as livestock, and so around and around in a circle it goes...

Some posters here mention grandparents/etc., who maybe "shipped" a horse at one point; I notice noone is ready to condemn those relatives as evil.

Anyhow, with regards to slaughter, sometimes a horse is "rescued" and then passed on, and the person who winds up with the "rescued" horse is blaming said dealer, who would have shipped the horse, except for the "rescuer" who so desperately wanted it, and it was, indeed a "junk" horse...

I also find it interesting that at some sales in the US "loose" horses were bringing higher prices that ones under saddle--in part because of "rescuers"!

I also think that sometimes dealers or others who are pro-slaughter give their view-points in rather harsh terms to go ahead and irritate the anti-slaughter people up a little...not because they are as callous as they sound, but rather that they've had to deal with too many people who don't come from a seriously rural background, and lack a balanced sense in terms of the slaughter industry. I don't mean, by that last sentence, being for rather than against slaughter, but rather having realistic views.

These were just random thoughts as I was reading through this thread.

[terrygean]

What is the GVWR of a 30' featherweight trailer?

If you don't know the GVWR it is the combination of the weight of the trailer & the maximun weight of cargo loaded inside.
If you are in the business of buying & selling horses that is commerce and you are required to abide by the Federal Motor Carrier Regs. If you a 10000 # to 26000# you are required to have a DOT number on your vehicle. Call the DOT and ask them.
And that weight would be based on the GVWR of truck & trailer.

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 2 tbs:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by perfectionist:
What would YOU have done if you had been traveling with that rig? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, do ya think they were on the CB saying...guess what, I'm running into a tree now! I mean, the other rig might not have been in eyesight and I'm sure they weren't constantly talking cuz if they were then falling asleep would not be the assumption at this point.

If it were me...well, the whole situation would depend on where I was in relation to the wreck. If I was close...yes I would have stopped, turned around, or whatever but then again, if my business were hauling from point A to point B on a schedule...if I didn't know what was going on I'd just keep going. Not everyone who handles animals loves them or views them like we do and we can't harbor such hatred then express it on a public bb like that. Take it to PT if you wanna start a "Hate all slaughter haulers" clique or something but slamming this man in his life when you don't know him and assuming a whole conspiracy behind the other rig and the missing paperwork and bla bla bla....guess what...happens all the time!!!

Just cuz I don't like what he did does not give me the right to judge him as a person and especially not slam him in public on the interent. My own personal feelings are private. Fact is...man lost his life and so did horses-sad tragic end for all no matter what line of business was involved. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the trucking industry a trucker stops if he sees and accident, even if you don't know the person. There was no truck in front that was BS!!!!!!

[ProzacPuppy]

X- I find it extremely distressing that these horse traders only worry about "shrinkage" when dealing with living creatures. As I said before, if they can't eliminate slaughter they should at least require the animals are treated properly and with respect before they kill them. Apparently the kill haulers only think about money and it never appears to cross their minds that there are sentient beings suffering.

And I also reiterate, if you don't have the means to pay to have a horse euthanized and hauled away by the renderer, then you really don't need to own horses. Sorry, but that is just an easy cop-out by lazy people who are either not willing or not able to empathize. And being able to empathize requires both maturity and intelligence. Guess who appears to be lacking in both qualities?

[county]

Well IMO that would be you ProzacPuppy

[greysandbays]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ProzacPuppy:
X- I find it extremely distressing that these horse traders only worry about "shrinkage" when dealing with living creatures. As I said before, if they can't eliminate slaughter they should at least require the animals are treated properly and with respect before they kill them. Apparently the kill haulers only think about money and it never appears to cross their minds that there are sentient beings suffering.

And I also reiterate, if you don't have the means to pay to have a horse euthanized and hauled away by the renderer, then you really don't need to own horses. Sorry, but that is just an easy cop-out by lazy people who are either not willing or not able to empathize. And being able to empathize requires both maturity and intelligence. Guess who appears to be lacking in both qualities? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is just about the most foolish argument I've seen yet. If the almighty dollar is the driving force as you claim, then I can guarantee you that the greedy bastard who wants every last nickle is going to be taking a lot better care of his walking $$$$$$$$$$$ than the emotional twit who claims to "love" her horse and throws money everywhich way at it on things that mostly don't matter squat to the horse (or are even to the horse's detriment), but make her feel all warm and fuzzy and self-righteous.

The heroic medical efforts and extended stall rests inflicted by the emotional twit trying to rehabilitate nearly lost causes causes every bit as much pain and suffering as the shipping and slaughter process.

The stress of competition, with its "horse eating monsters everywhere" environment, and the bumbling training efforts of inept riders are every bit as terrifying to a young, green horse as the shipping and slaughter process.

To condemn one and diefy the other on the basis of the arbitrary definition of "maturity and intelligence" by being willing and able to "empathize" is an intellectual dishonesty.

And, by the way, if you want to start talking who should or should not be allowed (or needs) to own horses, it is my opinion that every horse owner who does not own a firearm and is not willing and able at any moment to use that firearm to end the suffering of their injured horse really doesn't need to own horses. So what makes YOUR opinion on the matter of who should or should not own horses any more valid than mine?

[x]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by terrygean:
What is the GVWR of a 30' featherweight trailer?

If you don't know the GVWR it is the combination of the weight of the trailer & the maximun weight of cargo loaded inside.
If you are in the business of buying & selling horses that is commerce and you are required to abide by the Federal Motor Carrier Regs. If you a 10000 # to 26000# you are required to have a DOT number on your vehicle. Call the DOT and ask them.
And that weight would be based on the GVWR of truck & trailer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

DOT number, yes--CDL, no.
There is a difference. You can have one without the other.

[x]

Greysandbays, well written post. Your first paragraph was exactly the point I was trying to get across with the "shrinkage".

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by terrygean:
What is the GVWR of a 30' featherweight trailer?

If you don't know the GVWR it is the combination of the weight of the trailer & the maximun weight of cargo loaded inside.
If you are in the business of buying & selling horses that is commerce and you are required to abide by the Federal Motor Carrier Regs. If you a 10000 # to 26000# you are required to have a DOT number on your vehicle. Call the DOT and ask them.
And that weight would be based on the GVWR of truck & trailer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

DOT number, yes--CDL, no.
There is a difference. You can have one without the other. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

DOT# required up to 26,000# over that a CDL, logbook, med. card, drug test all requirements of a commercial truck driver. I am an owner/operator of an 80,000 # vechicle. I have had many conversations with DOT concerning dually's & stock trailers not abiding by the Federal Motor Carrier Regs.

[luvmytbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by greysandbays:

it is my opinion that every horse owner who does not own a firearm and is not willing and able at any moment to use that firearm to end the suffering of their injured horse really doesn't need to own horses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is about the most insane statement I have heard in a while.

Why is it that a lot of people here constantly seem to forget (deliberately?) about euthanizing a horse. We do have phones to call a vet in an emergency situation.
Same goes for if a person gets hurt, you call 911 for an ambulance, even if you think that person isn't going to make it, or do you????????

[county]

Why wait for a vet and make the horse suffer? If you know the animal needs to be put down and your responsable you put it down rather then stand around waiting for someone else to do it for you.

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Why wait for a vet and make the horse suffer? If you know the animal needs to be put down and your responsable you put it down rather then stand around waiting for someone else to do it for you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good Point County, Why don't people put their horse down rather than send it off to an auction to be trucked to a slaughter house to be killed. Sounds like they are being irresponsible. AND GREEDY FOR THAT LAST LITTLE BIT OF MONEY!!!!

[county]

Big differance between selling livestock and putting an animal down thats injured although I don't doubt your not able to see that. BTW why do you drive truck? Greed?

[terrygean]

Anybody know the gross vechicle weight rating of a 30' stock trailer?????? Some people on here haul livestock so they should know the GVWR of their trailer. Please help me on this. I don't have a trailer company near me. Or if you have a smaller or larger trailer, please tell me the GVWR & the size.

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Big differance between selling livestock and putting an animal down thats injured although I don't doubt your not able to see that. BTW why do you drive truck? Greed? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've told you before County that I am an owner/operator of a Semi. What does that have to do with greed? A truck driver works alot of hours and the money isn't that great. I do it because of the flexiblity of working days. And I do it because I didn't travel alot as a kid, my sons grew up, so I got to work & see alot of America. But the money is not great, I am seriously considering a job change. I'd like to become a DOT officer.

[county]

I just assumed you drove out of greed, seems to be why you feel others do what they do for a living.

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I just assumed you drove out of greed, seems to be why you feel others do what they do for a living. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only time I mentioned greed was when someone sends their horse off to slaughter for that last few hundred dollars. Doesn't matter if the horse is healthy or not. The person is irresponsible and greedy.

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I just assumed you drove out of greed, seems to be why you feel others do what they do for a living. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

County

Also you should never assume anything.

[county]

But yout thoughts are nothing more then opinion. Mine is the only reason you drive truck is out of greed for the money your paid. You don't enjoy it, basically it makes you a very angry person probably because you do you do it out of greed.

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
But yout thoughts are nothing more then opinion. Mine is the only reason you drive truck is out of greed for the money your paid. You don't enjoy it, basically it makes you a very angry person probably because you do you do it out of greed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did enjoy it very much. Who wouldn't I work when I want, I got to see alot of the country & still be able to pay my bills, I've met alot of people. I really enjoyed running the back roads on a nice day. It is just with fuel prices so high & I want more home time now. I've seen almost all of the U.S. And I have been able to inform alot of people of the horse slaughter issue. I drive a semi with signs on both sides & the back that state:

Keep America's Horses in the Stable and Off the Table. Save America's Horses.com

I'm going to add more signs. I'm thinking about plastering my whole truck with signs on the issue.

If you really believe in your cause of pro slaughter maybe you all should spread the word.

Make some bumper stickers like:
Support horse slaughter for human consuption.

And for all those people that feel we need horse slaughter to avoid abuse Theirs could say:

Be pro horse and stop abuse Support horse slaughter.

I wonder how many pro slaughter people would do that??????

[ProzacPuppy]

County, firstly, there is a great difference between empathy and sympathy. I do not have SYMPATHY for those who live by the suffering of others. I have EMPATHY for the suffering of others. Difference in definition of the words.

Secondly, perhaps I misunderstood the concept of shrinkage (as "x" said greysandbays first paragraph argument was wonderful and I found it confusing at best). Want to explain what the concerns are when transporting horses to slaughter besides not getting them to the plant in a timely manner and the worry that they may lose a significant amount of weight- through lack of nutrition or through dehydration.

greysandbays- How have you determined that the level of care received by the horses on the way to slaughter is better and more humane than the care afforded the expensive show horse by his owner? It appears that you are damning all those that try to rehab an injured "pet". And you have specifically said that the care the showjumper with a tendon injury receives is more mentally and physically abusive than what horses receive at feedlots, auctions such as New Holland and on kill buyers trucks. Having personally brought a jumper back from a ligament injury I can safely say that at not time did he ever appear to be even remotely uncomfortable with the treatments or care he was given, nor did the extra attention and handwalks by his groom cause an noticeable mental anguish or terror.

Of course there is the group of horse "folk" who think it is cruel to put any horse in a stall, shoe them, blanket them etc. If you fall into that category then the argument is moot.

RE: All horse owners should own guns- Don't need a gun, my horses do not live with me and I am not a caretaker of them. Unless I am supposed to shoot myself when I get a call that my horse is horribly injured. Also, there are times when a horse appears to be much worse off than they actually are. Isn't it possible that owners would be running out to the field shooting horses that really didn't need a bullet in the head due to the appearance of the situation at first glance? Also, perhaps there are people who live so remotely that they would be unable to get a vet within 30 minutes if it was truly an emergency. Even with colic I've never had a problem getting a vet to the barn within half an hour for an emergency. Also, due to the level of care my horses are given and the amount of supervision they receive it would be pretty hard for them to injure themselves so severely that they needed to be shot ASAP. Doesn't apply to everyone I'm sure however.

And lastly, as others have said, many horses that are sold at auction that end up at slaughterhouses are not so ill, injured or in such pain that they require immediate euthanization. Many are just unwanted and with little intrinsic value (the untrained, the ill-tempered, the old). It is my personal belief that the owners owe it to that animal to have them HUMANELY disposed of- which at this time in America is generally euthanasia either by lethal injection or by a gunshot fired by someone who is skilled and can dispatch the animal swiftly and cleanly.

I greatly resent the implication that owners of show horses are more cruel and inhumane than the slaughterhouse.

[Duffy]

Looked like more than an "implication" to me, PP. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[ProzacPuppy]

Has anyone else noticed that grammar has taken a significant turn for the worse on this thread?

[county]

Terryjean many of the reasons you say you drive a truck is why I farm and raise livestock. So I'd have to say if I do it for greed your exactly the same way you drive a truck out of greed for money.

[ProzacPuppy]

county- Are you defending what YOU do for a living or defending the way Jim Ryan made a living (which as we have ascertained, was in that grey area between legal and "better not let the cops see you")?

That slaughter is a necessary evil in America today is a valid argument.

The argument that it is a more humane way to live and die for horses than in a show barn is, to me, an undefendable position.

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Terryjean many of the reasons you say you drive a truck is why I farm and raise livestock. So I'd have to say if I do it for greed your exactly the same way you drive a truck out of greed for money. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
PLEASE QUOTE ME RIGHT!!!
I never said that what you do (farming & raising livestock) you do for greed. I did say that people who send their horses to slaughter directly or through an auction for slaughter are irresponsible and greedy for that last few dollars from that horse. I would never betray an animal for a few hundred dollars. And you say you are farmer, than you know the difference between raising cow, pigs and horses. When I talk to farmers at the county fair They know the difference between food animals and horses. And don't reply with that shit that people eat horses. WE DON'T EAT THEM HERE. I don't think that part of the issure is so hard to grasp. But evidently it is for some. If you were a responsible livestock person you would not want any animals that have had drugs used on them (NOT INTENDED FOR FOOD ANIMALS) to be enter into the food supply. When livestock raisers do not object to this it makes me wonder about the meat they are raising. And I make sure I express that concern when I speak to people on the issue.
So not only are some people being irresponsible horses owners they are also being irresponsible livestock raises.
I don't think that livestock raisers have to worry about PETA or other animal activists groups damaging their livelyhood. I think the farmers need to worry and advocate about factory farming. The drugs used on the animals on these feedlots. That will be the downfall of the livestock raiser. Not the anti horse slaughter issue.

[terrygean]

THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!

[county]

Like I said before if working for money is greedy then your greedy just like those you accuse. You don't like what some do so what theres some feel same way about you and others. Nothing you stated is anything more then an opinion not all are the same nor should they be. You and others condemn some who buy livestock that are neglected, fixed up and resold. Others think its good to give them another chance at life why should I stoop because you don't like it?

[Sansena]

County;

Ever hear of the expression "Beating a dead horse"?

[county]

Ya but sometimes ya just gotta play with these trolls.

[Sansena]

**smacking myself in the forehead**
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Guess I should've expected that....

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Like I said before if working for money is greedy then your greedy just like those you accuse. You don't like what some do so what theres some feel same way about you and others. Nothing you stated is anything more then an opinion not all are the same nor should they be. You and others condemn some who buy livestock that are neglected, fixed up and resold. Others think its good to give them another chance at life why should I stoop because you don't like it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Next time you go to the store, gas station etc. remember a truck brought it so you can consume it. If truckers are greedy boycott us Don't buy anything.
And quote me right I SAID HORSES NOT LIVESTOCK.

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Ya but sometimes ya just gotta play with these trolls. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought you didn't like name calling. I don't remember calling you one. But now that you brought it up you are an idiot.

My exhusband must of found this forum. I divorced him because he was an idiot and twisted everything you said to try and make it fit his needs.

I have had other conversations with you before COUNTY and I will not waste anymore time on you. Your lack of intellegence is not worth it.

EDUCATE YOUR SELF ON THE ISSUE MR. DON'T KNOW IT ALL!

[county]

I've heard all this beforre terryjean it appears your so fascinated by me you just can't back mup your words.