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View Full Version : Why jog if lame horses are never pulled out?



Fun Size
May. 28, 2010, 02:49 AM
One of the things I like to do to improve my own riding is to watch lots and lots of horse shows. I like to go watch the A rated stuff I would like to one day show in, and just watch and see what happens.

Anyway. Awhile back (maybe 2-3 months ago) I was watching what I think was a 3' medal class. There were 15-ish in the class, and everyone had pretty decent rounds. One of the horses had a pretty good round, but was very off. She (the horse) just looked really stiff and sore all over, and was limping off one of her front feet to the point you could see the pain reaction in her head movement.

This class included a jog, and this one was jogged out at 5th place. Horse was still gimpy all the way out, and all the way back.

Horse still pinned at 5th.

As I turned to my (more horsey experienced) friend and asked "what the heck??", she explained that they only pull horses out if it is really really bad, because it can be contested and judges usually don't want to start a whole big thing.

So, I ask, "why bother jogging if no one is going to do anything anyway?"

This was an A rated show with all the things you would expect, so I don't get it.

neigh.neigh
May. 28, 2010, 09:14 AM
I have seen a couple horses pulled out of jogs. One was at Zone 2 hunter finals and others have been at local A shows. It does happen.

pattnic
May. 28, 2010, 09:23 AM
At some shows, the jog is required as a formality... so it's done really only because it's required.

Has anyone ever seen a horse bumped in placings (in the recent past), I wonder? Nevermind - just read the post above mine!

Lucassb
May. 28, 2010, 09:34 AM
I have seen horses spun in jogs at A shows. It's not common but it does happen (and depends on the judge's willingness to "go there.")

If you saw a jog, it was not a medal (equitation) class, but a hunter round. Eq horses don't jog (and are only required to be "serviceably sound" ... a subjective call on the part of the official, obviously.)

KayPink
May. 28, 2010, 09:39 AM
Yep, I've seen horses pulled from jogs a few times, it definitely happens.

alteringwego
May. 28, 2010, 09:53 AM
seen it happen.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
May. 28, 2010, 11:42 AM
The class you watched wasn't a medal class- medal classes don't include jogs. I have seen questionably sound horses not get a second glance in the jog, and moderately unsound ones get tossed rather quickly. It depends on the class and the judge.

I think you're much more likely to see horses get spun from the regular, 3'6" jogs than you are from the unrated 3' rings. Seems the concept of "serviceably" sound is rather subjective.

Rockfish
May. 28, 2010, 11:50 AM
I think you're much more likely to see horses get spun from the regular, 3'6" jogs than you are from the unrated 3' rings. Seems the concept of "serviceably" sound is rather subjective.

unrated classes usually don't jog, regardless on height.

dags
May. 28, 2010, 11:59 AM
unrated classes usually don't jog, regardless on height.

Believe some Zones make a call that Ch/AA do. Zone 7 did in the 90s, don't know if they still do. I remember when they debated eliminating the Childrens jog . . . all the kids were bummed about it. Definitely more of a spotlight thing than soundness thing to them.

After 2 years in the junior ring I was pretty over it though :)

Have definitely seen horses spun. And not spun. Just another one of those beautiful hunter ring quirks :rolleyes:

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
May. 28, 2010, 12:00 PM
unrated classes usually don't jog, regardless on height.

In zone 3, the childrens hunters and AAs absolutely do jog. I believe this is true of several zones on the east coast.

alteringwego
May. 28, 2010, 12:06 PM
Zone 4 jogs childrens and adult amateurs.

Sleepy
May. 28, 2010, 12:07 PM
I would have thought someone in Zone 3 would have known that Childrens' and AA's jogged. They have for 30 years.

joiedevie99
May. 28, 2010, 12:15 PM
Zone 2 does not jog Childrens, AAs or Pe-Greens.

Rockfish
May. 28, 2010, 01:11 PM
wow. some of you need reading comprehension lessons. the post I quoted said you'd be less likely to see a horse spun from an unrated 3' ring. well, unrateds don't jog!


Ch/AA are rated classes-rated C, therefore they do jog.

Nowhere did I say ch/AA doesn't jog. Thanks for jumping on me.

Fairmare
May. 28, 2010, 01:12 PM
I've seen it a few times as well in the AA Hunters up here in Canada

Lucassb
May. 28, 2010, 01:15 PM
emphasis on unrated!

the ch/aa's are rated c, therefore they do jog.

It varies by Zone. Some jog the children's and adults, some do not.

Seal Harbor
May. 28, 2010, 01:29 PM
wow. some of you need reading comprehension lessons. the post I quoted said you'd be less likely to see a horse spun from an unrated 3' ring. well, unrateds don't jog!


Ch/AA are rated classes-rated C, therefore they do jog.

Nowhere did I say ch/AA doesn't jog. Thanks for jumping on me.

The C rated divisions do not jog in Zone 9. I don't know if they ever did. Didn't live here at the beginning of the Zone stuff.

They use to in Zone 5 but haven't in a very long time.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
May. 28, 2010, 01:33 PM
Alright, excuse my vagueness. I do not consider "C rated" divisions rated at all- if I'm at an A or AA show, "unrated" is any class that does not accrue national points (Pre-green/Ch./AA/mini-medals, etc). So when I referred to an "unrated" 3' division, I was in fact referring to what you're calling "C rated".

Sorry for the confusion.

dags
May. 28, 2010, 01:35 PM
Alright, excuse my vagueness. I do not consider "C rated" divisions rated at all- if I'm at an A or AA show, "unrated" is any class that does not accrue national points (Pre-green/Ch./AA/mini-medals, etc). So when I referred to an "unrated" 3' division, I was in fact referring to what you're calling "C rated".

Sorry for the confusion.

Kind of where I was coming from too, and had no intention of jumping on you Rockfish.

Shrunk "N" Da Wash
May. 28, 2010, 01:57 PM
"Serviceably sound".... That's sick :no:

I have a horse that goes a tad lame because she's prone to bruising her heel. If I notice this I don't ride or if I notice it mid ride I STOP. I don't say oh well she's pretty much sound because her lameness is very very subtle. The day I would dare try to compete her when she wouldn't pass a strict jog someone please shoot me as I have lost my mind. :yes:

Lucassb
May. 28, 2010, 02:06 PM
"Serviceably sound".... That's sick :no:

I have a horse that goes a tad lame because she's prone to bruising her heel. If I notice this I don't ride or if I notice it mid ride I STOP. I don't say oh well she's pretty much sound because her lameness is very very subtle. The day I would dare try to compete her when she wouldn't pass a strict jog someone please shoot me as I have lost my mind. :yes:

Serviceable soundness is a very subjective thing and can vary widely based on who is doing the assessment.

I have a friend whose older horse comes out a bit stiff and looks very short until he warms up - five minutes of loose canter later, he has a hack winning trot and is eager to work. She couldn't bear to see him "lame" every day so she gave him to someone else - who understands that it is better for the horse to stay in a reasonable amount of work and who is willing to warm him up gently and correctly until he works out of that stiffness.

A lot of people, myself included, would call that horse "serviceably sound" and would not consider it "sick" at all.

Of course I am only serviceably sound myself, and start the day off the same way, so perhaps I am biased.

luvs2ridewbs
May. 28, 2010, 02:21 PM
I've always wondered why USEF hasn't make the AAs, Children's, Pre greens, etc a nationally rated division. They have gotten so large. I don't think the "only a zone division to be affordable" is still a viable reason since many Childrens Hunter and AA hunters travel the circuit now.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
May. 28, 2010, 02:25 PM
Serviceable soundness does not mean lame. Typically, a horse that is serviceably sound is aged, a little stiff, but otherwise perfectly capable of doing his/her job. Like Lucassb said, it's totally subjective, but I think it's safe to say that to a large majority of judges, head bobbing lameness or visible, performance inhibiting discomfort is a no-go. Also keep in mind that the jog for the 3' divisions is not like the jog for the 3'6" divisions. Take a minute to compare the two when you're at your next horse show (if, of course, they jog 3' horses in your zone).

Keep in mind that a serviceably sound horse is not going to jog at all if it's not sound enough to get the job done. So if it's not sound enough to get around a course doing the numbers with its changes, it's a moot point since it's not going to jog anyway..

I had a horse that was serviceably sound during my first year showing at 3'. He had some navicular issues that required a 15 minute warm-up to work out of, but was absolutely fine after those 15 minutes. It was at the recommendation of 3 different vets that he be kept in work during that time, and as long as he continued to work out of his stiffness after coming out, he was cleared for normal work. He was also a "move down" horse, as he'd been competing at the 3'6" for several years before I got him, so his work load was diminishing during our time together. We were never pulled from a jog in a relatively competitive childrens zone. After that year, he was retired, and now enjoys a 5 acre pasture on my family's farm.

wanderlust
May. 28, 2010, 02:38 PM
I've personally never seen or heard of a Ch/AA class jog in Northern California, and didn't see any at the shows I've attended in WA thus far. Just Jr/AO. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I'd find it very strange if they actually jogged a 3' class in SoCal.

Shrunk "N" Da Wash
May. 28, 2010, 02:45 PM
Okay yes some horses get stiff and are short. But if they are jogging up like that than they should not pass because that creates to many loop holes for actual lame horses to pass. No?... :confused:

Nickelodian
May. 28, 2010, 02:54 PM
Zone 7 does not jog ch/ad anymore. But they did for years. I agree it was a spotlight moment for me, and missed doing it when they got rid of it. I'm in the A/Os now and jog away, its my horse's favorite part of the show. I've seen more than one horse spun.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
May. 28, 2010, 02:56 PM
Okay yes some horses get stiff and are short. But if they are jogging up like that than they should not pass because that creates to many loop holes for actual lame horses to pass. No?... :confused:

Not really, no. Because "stiff" or "short" (in reasonable terms, of course- think older, slightly arthritic horse, not soft tissue injury stiff or short) is serviceably sound. A horse that can happily do it's job without problems, but that isn't going to go lope around the 3'6" ring, and likely needs a good stretch before it goes in the ring. An actual lame horse is actually lame. Will not make it through the jog...

lisa
May. 28, 2010, 03:09 PM
Zone 4 jogs childrens and adult amateurs.

I've never seen the AAs or Children's jog in Zone 4.
Which show management requires it?

foursocks
May. 28, 2010, 03:18 PM
Many years ago I was jogging one of my junior hunters and tripped over my own clumsy teenage feet. I guess the judge saw my horse swerve out to avoid stepping on me, and we had to re-jog. We were jogging for second or third, can't remember, so perhaps it was deemed more important than if we were placed 6th...?

After that, my trainers made me practice jogging so I didn't make my horse look lame when he wasn't. :lol:

I've seen a few horses spun, but way way way more of them not spun when they should be.

mvp
May. 28, 2010, 05:26 PM
"Serviceably sound".... That's sick :no:

I have a horse that goes a tad lame because she's prone to bruising her heel. If I notice this I don't ride or if I notice it mid ride I STOP. I don't say oh well she's pretty much sound because her lameness is very very subtle. The day I would dare try to compete her when she wouldn't pass a strict jog someone please shoot me as I have lost my mind. :yes:

There are many valuable campaigning equitation horses that are merely serviceably sound. If you have ever seen a big jumper who only walks or canters in the show ring, you may be looking at a horse who is serviceably sound. Are the horses lame or not? Shows don't officially judge unless the problem is dead obvious or you are talking about the FEI magnifying glass.

Most horses, at some point in their career spend time in the "gray zone" between sound and lame. If you haven't had to deal with this yet, knock on wood. But keep riding and writing checks, and then pass judgement on the "sick" folks showing horses that don't look 100% to you. There are reasons for what they do and most of them are trying to do the best they can to manage a horse who enjoys the job even if his body is starting to wear out a little bit. Compared to other ways that horses can make a living, showing even if stiff or sore isn't all that bad of a package deal.

Seal Harbor
May. 28, 2010, 05:49 PM
For Zones and divisions that jog there is a stand by list announced to keep you at the ring, before the last few horses go the ones that are a bit stiffer after standing for a bit waiting are moved around, then they jog.

I'm not serviceably sound, so if I were to jog one the judge wouldn't be looking at the horse. :lol:

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
May. 28, 2010, 05:55 PM
We pray that there's a standby list, but all to often, the judge does not answer that prayer. It does help the older ones to move around a bit, though, or at least know they can go back to the barn.

Seal Harbor
May. 28, 2010, 06:14 PM
In that case I would just wander around with one I thought had a good enough trip and head back to the gate when the last few were going.

December
May. 28, 2010, 06:16 PM
I was "spun" once in 2'9", with a trip that I pinned 5th!!! My horse had 3 lovely trips, went back to the trailer perfectly sound, and pulled a muscle walking back off the trailer to jog (took a giant step off and stumbled). My coach and I couldn't believe it, and figured she would warm up out of it. How bad could it be, so we thought! She said, go and jog. They called our number to jog,we jogged in, but when the time came for us to get the ribbon, it went to the next horse and they just passed over us. I was glad they didn't announce it, because it was embarassing. I'm sure a lot of people that day thought I showed a lame horse...

The weird thing was, they did NOT remove our placings that day from the results or the standings, and we still got points for it when clearly we shouldn't have.

Fun Size
May. 28, 2010, 07:32 PM
Ok, well I am not very experienced in classes and how they work :D greenie!

I went back over the show schedule and figured out that it was a junior hunters class, rated, held at 3'6"

The mare had some issues getting around the course, too. Looked like it hurt :(

But that is why I'm asking :) I just thought it was weird, and from all the responses it sounds like it IS one of those hunter quirks.

I didn't see a horse that was just "off," this mare was lame.

Peggy
May. 28, 2010, 09:06 PM
Have seen them spun in the hunter jog, including one where they jogged twice, up and then back down the ring, for back-to-back rounds. A friend's horse jogged fine on the way up and was then lame on the way back down. She kept her placing for the first round and got knocked out for the second round. It turned out he had an abscess and it's not uncommon to have a horse go lame within a few strides after they put pressure on it in just the wrong way.

Gry2Yng
May. 28, 2010, 09:13 PM
Alright, excuse my vagueness. I do not consider "C rated" divisions rated at all- if I'm at an A or AA show, "unrated" is any class that does not accrue national points (Pre-green/Ch./AA/mini-medals, etc). So when I referred to an "unrated" 3' division, I was in fact referring to what you're calling "C rated".

Sorry for the confusion.

I also consider the "C" rated divisions unrated and I have never seen them jog here in Zone 5 or 6, but I have little depth to my experience.

twobays
May. 28, 2010, 10:51 PM
"Serviceably sound".... That's sick :no:

I have a horse that goes a tad lame because she's prone to bruising her heel. If I notice this I don't ride or if I notice it mid ride I STOP. I don't say oh well she's pretty much sound because her lameness is very very subtle. The day I would dare try to compete her when she wouldn't pass a strict jog someone please shoot me as I have lost my mind. :yes:

I'd say that 99% of horses that walk into the show ring have SOME type of problem that can manifest as unsoundness. When I say that, I'm including an old soft tissue injury that could blow again, tiny arthritic changes, bad feet, etc. Unless a horse is medically flawless, we're always talking in shades of grey.

eloquence09
May. 28, 2010, 11:05 PM
Sorry, event rider here, but what is the purpose of the jog if not to check for lameness? Sounds like it serves a completely different purpose than in the eventing world.

EAY
May. 29, 2010, 03:26 PM
What happens if you're doing back-to-back rounds and during the second round the horse takes a bad step, crashes, etc. and comes up lame? It sounds like you would lose your ribbon from the first round since your horse wouldn't be able to jog sound even though he would have if they had jogged back the first class before starting the second.

Has anyone ever seen this happen? Does the judge have any discretion for awarding the placing in the first round?

SkipChange
May. 29, 2010, 03:38 PM
What happens if you're doing back-to-back rounds and during the second round the horse takes a bad step, crashes, etc. and comes up lame? It sounds like you would lose your ribbon from the first round since your horse wouldn't be able to jog sound even though he would have if they had jogged back the first class before starting the second.

Has anyone ever seen this happen? Does the judge have any discretion for awarding the placing in the first round?

Your question was already answered in a previous post.

Have seen them spun in the hunter jog, including one where they jogged twice, up and then back down the ring, for back-to-back rounds. A friend's horse jogged fine on the way up and was then lame on the way back down. She kept her placing for the first round and got knocked out for the second round. It turned out he had an abscess and it's not uncommon to have a horse go lame within a few strides after they put pressure on it in just the wrong way.

rugbygirl
May. 29, 2010, 05:02 PM
I talked to a judge about this once, and she said that judging lameness is notoriously difficult (as I'm sure many people can attest to) and not all judges are created with an equal eye.

Personally, I am terrible at diagnosing lameness until it is major, and things like a giant horse pulling a short-legged handler along at the jog make me see shortness that isn't there. Some trainers and coaches seem to be really good at seeing this, and some excellent, experienced trainers and coaches are godawful and rely on more talented eyes. NBD.

The judge I spoke to said that outside the real "A" shows and major divisions...it just isn't worth it to excuse some poor lesson pony and her kid because the horse is maybe a 2/5 on the scale on one front. Maybe. In the 15 seconds the judge had to look.

EAY
May. 29, 2010, 05:09 PM
Your question was already answered in a previous post.

I really don't see where the previous post answered my question which was how they handle it when a horse is obviously injured during a second round and as a result is unable to jog back sound for placing from a first round and whether or not the judge has any discretion here in declaring the horse sound for the first round.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
May. 29, 2010, 06:33 PM
I really don't see where the previous post answered my question which was how they handle it when a horse is obviously injured during a second round and as a result is unable to jog back sound for placing from a first round and whether or not the judge has any discretion here in declaring the horse sound for the first round.
If the horse can't jog, it can't get a ribbon. Period.

I think it's safe to assume that EVERY horse has some type of "unsoundness". Seriously- just look at the horse care forum for threads entitled "is this horse sound". Hundreds of critical eyes diagnosing lameness that may or may not actually be there...

I think the important part of a jog is evaluating the horse's soundness against the demands of the ring it's competing in. A childrens horse needs to meet far fewer demands than a working hunter, and this will likely be evidenced in the types of horses and varying degrees of "soundness" seen in the jogs. But again, a large majority of horses that are unsound enough to get spun from a jog are not performing adequately, and are therefore not jogging anyway.

chrissymack
May. 29, 2010, 09:19 PM
Zone 4 jogs childrens and adult amateurs.

Not here in Wellington! Only the A rated divisions jog :)