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bhrunner06
May. 26, 2010, 07:54 PM
I was wondering if you are able to show in the AO jumpers, on a horse you own, and show in a schooling class or the open jumpers (ex: the 1.30s) on a horse you do not own (and of course not being paid or anything of that sort!)?

What about the AO jumpers (on a horse you own) and an adult am hunter (that you do not own)

Chef Jade
May. 26, 2010, 08:13 PM
1) No, not at the same show.
2) No, not at the same show. And in my zone (10), you couldn't even compete in the A/A's and A/O's even if you owned both horses (unless it was A/A jumpers and A/O hunters).

JA
May. 26, 2010, 08:20 PM
See USEF General rules 1307 and Jumper rule 117.

CBoylen
May. 26, 2010, 08:24 PM
No to both of those. The A/O jumper rules were changed to match the A/O hunter rules. If you show in the A/O hunters or jumpers you may not show a horse you/ your family do not own in any other class at the same horse show, except for hack classes.

bhrunner06
May. 26, 2010, 08:28 PM
No to both of those. The A/O jumper rules were changed to match the A/O hunter rules. If you show in the A/O hunters or jumpers you may not show a horse you/ your family do not own in any other class at the same horse show, except for hack classes.

Thanks for your quick responses everyone! Does anyone know the reasoning behind this? I only own one show horse, and would love to have more ring time, but cant do that. I guess I am just wondering why the rules are written this way? Ammys have to make money in other ways (i work in an office and do NOT make enough to own more than one horse) so it seems like there should be more ways for an ammy rider to show. So if I want to stay at 3'6 jumpers forever, I can show other horses (am I right?) which makes no sense. Why can I do that at 3'6" but not at 4'?

JA
May. 26, 2010, 08:44 PM
USEF told another ammy at my farm today that if she officially leased (lease registered with USEF) that she could show the horse she owns in the High AO jumpers and the leased horse in another division. Somehow this doesn't sound right to me because you are competing for another owner this way.... Might
want to call USEF to ask

This rule was created to prevent cheating... lots of non-ammys were showing as ammys and competing multiple horses they didn't own. For example showing their own horse in the high AO's and then an outside owned horse in the Grand Prixs, Opens etc.

joiedevie99
May. 26, 2010, 08:47 PM
As far as I understand, nothing prevents you from showing multiple horses at 4' or 4'6" - you just can't show any of them in the A/O division. You could show your horse plus a horse you don't own in the level classes.

JA
May. 26, 2010, 08:51 PM
Here's the rule straight from the 201o rulebook. It is new for this year

JP117 Sections/Classes Restricted to Junior, Amateur/Owner, or Young Riders.
1. Amateur Owner Jumper: A horse that is ridden by an Amateur Owner or an amateur
member of the owner’s family. In either case, classes are restricted to riders who are no
longer eligible to compete as junior exhibitors. Leased horses are not eligible, and multiple
ownership is not permitted unless all owners are members of the same family.
a. An amateur who competes for a person outside of his/her family may not compete in
a class restricted to Amateur Owners at the same competition. Exception: equitation
and under saddle per HU107.2. BOD 1/18/09 Effective 12/1/09 EC 4/20/09 Effective 12/1/09
EC 8/17/09 Effective 12/1/09
R

Jumphigh83
May. 26, 2010, 10:13 PM
It should add:
exception: you can do anything you want as long as you are influential enough that no one will protest you because the federation will not enforce the rules anyway, that is the job of the membership, who is scared and intimidated. ;);)

Roxy SM
May. 26, 2010, 10:49 PM
Thanks for your quick responses everyone! Does anyone know the reasoning behind this? I only own one show horse, and would love to have more ring time, but cant do that. I guess I am just wondering why the rules are written this way? Ammys have to make money in other ways (i work in an office and do NOT make enough to own more than one horse) so it seems like there should be more ways for an ammy rider to show. So if I want to stay at 3'6 jumpers forever, I can show other horses (am I right?) which makes no sense. Why can I do that at 3'6" but not at 4'?

Why don't you just show your horse in the open classes if you want to show other horses that badly? I don't think it's that unfair, either be a full-on ammy that only rides her own horses or ride your horse in the open classes and not only enjoy riding others' horses but also enjoy your wins more knowing you beat people that ride all day for a living!

Janet
May. 26, 2010, 11:31 PM
I was wondering if you are able to show in the AO jumpers, on a horse you own, and show in a schooling class or the open jumpers (ex: the 1.30s) on a horse you do not own (and of course not being paid or anything of that sort!)?

What about the AO jumpers (on a horse you own) and an adult am hunter (that you do not own)


Only if you have a formally recorded lease on the "other" horse.

SmileItLooksGoodOnYou
May. 26, 2010, 11:46 PM
Could one have a formally recorded lease for free if the other owner wanted an ammie to show their horse?

Edit: free from the owner, not usef free.

Chef Jade
May. 27, 2010, 12:13 AM
Only if you have a formally recorded lease on the "other" horse.
So if this is the case, why doesn't it state it in the rules???

Is this just "insider's" knowledge? :confused:

S A McKee
May. 27, 2010, 04:34 AM
So if this is the case, why doesn't it state it in the rules???

Is this just "insider's" knowledge? :confused:

"It's in the General Rules.
GR1108 Lease Registration.
1. The Federation encourages all lessors of horses competing in Federation competitions to register the lease with the Federation. A recorded horse must be shown under a lessee’s ownership provided an official lease is registered with the Federation"

If the lease is recorded with USEF then you show the horse in your ownership, no different than if you were the actual owner.

Janet
May. 27, 2010, 08:10 AM
So if this is the case, why doesn't it state it in the rules???

Is this just "insider's" knowledge? :confused:


Someone asked USEF, and posted the result here. It was also explicit in one of the Zone rules (for A/A).

The distinction is that you (or a family member)have to OWN the horse you show in A/O(leased horses not eligible). But the other restriction says you can't compete in A/O and "compete for a person outside of his/her family" at the same competition.

Apparently riding a formally leased horse doesn't constitute "competing for" the owner.

Janet
May. 27, 2010, 08:10 AM
"It's in the General Rules.
GR1108 Lease Registration.
1. The Federation encourages all lessors of horses competing in Federation competitions to register the lease with the Federation. A recorded horse must be shown under a lessee’s ownership provided an official lease is registered with the Federation"

If the lease is recorded with USEF then you show the horse in your ownership, no different than if you were the actual owner.
But not in A/O which explicitly excludes leased horses.

tidy rabbit
May. 27, 2010, 08:45 AM
Why don't you just show your horse in the open classes if you want to show other horses that badly? I don't think it's that unfair, either be a full-on ammy that only rides her own horses or ride your horse in the open classes and not only enjoy riding others' horses but also enjoy your wins more knowing you beat people that ride all day for a living!

Exactly.

LaraNSpeedy
May. 27, 2010, 08:56 AM
I agree with the last post and comment. Just change divisions. These competitions attract so many competitors and the rules are written trying to keep things fair. It might seem like one person with innocent motives should be given a chance to bend the rules - because you are innocent in your intentions - but the bigger picture is to keep things fair which FOR YOU - trust me - its better that you can choose to go against pros or not. So the rules actually ultimately make things better for you.

If your goal is to get in the ring more - just change divisions.

My question -cant you compete in the other divisions so you can ride more and then if you dont like that - switch back to AO with your horse alone.

Jumphigh83
May. 27, 2010, 12:01 PM
Some horse shows have changed the (low) junior and amateur (jumper)division to exclude the term "Owner", making the charade much easier to pull off.

bhrunner06
May. 27, 2010, 05:42 PM
I understand what everyone is saying. and as for the changing of divisions...due to being an amateur, i have a full time job...so showing during the week is not always possible, which results in showing on the weekends...only classes offered on weekends are AO classes.

Thanks for the input everyone.

Janet
May. 27, 2010, 05:48 PM
What about the classes you were going to show the OTHER horse in? Aren't they on the weekend?

tidy rabbit
May. 27, 2010, 05:50 PM
only classes offered on weekends are AO classes.


Oh come on... you know there's other classes.... perhaps it's time to MOVE UP! ;)

bhrunner06
May. 27, 2010, 06:01 PM
What about the classes you were going to show the OTHER horse in? Aren't they on the weekend?

just to make things clear...had no intentions of showing another horse any time soon...this was all hypothetical questions, trying to figure out what was allowed and what wasnt allowed.

and yes, my example of an AA hunter would go on the weekend...which is all i can show...the weekends.

Tidy...hahahahaha yeah. about that. not yet. haha

BNTHUNTER
May. 27, 2010, 09:27 PM
I just got a new hunter and would like to move up to the low A/Os. Cant do it because I have a leased jumper.
Therefore the hunter and I will be cantering over 3' fences until my lease expires at the end of the year.
Being that I work 65 hrs a week, I dont have the option of doing the lovely 3'6" schooling classes on Tuesday and I have no biz or desire to go up against the pros...
Unless you are willing to submit false paperwork you are stuck competing in a class that is below your skill level.

I say drop the "owner" and have different level ami classes. If you compete in ami classes then you cant show in any other division..

Giddy-up
May. 29, 2010, 10:01 PM
Not to bring up this topic again, but here is an interesting.

Last week at the show, an adult showed her horse in the ao jumpers & then showed another horse listed with somebody else as the owner in the modified adult & amateur adult jumpers. I am not 100% certain, but it's very unlikely this rider has a USEF lease on the other horse she rode.

So for pure curiosity sake after seeing this thread, I went in the show office this week & asked about it. Office told me rider is allowed to show their horse in ao classes & then allowed 1 horse "that doesn't count" to show in other adult classes. I asked doesn't the ao jumper rule match the ao hunter rule? I was told it was changed, then modified somewhat to allow this & it's only in the jumpers. I found that interesting.

Janet
May. 29, 2010, 10:36 PM
Office told me rider is allowed to show their horse in ao classes & then allowed 1 horse "that doesn't count" to show in other adult classes. I asked doesn't the ao jumper rule match the ao hunter rule? I was told it was changed, then modified somewhat to allow this & it's only in the jumpers. I found that interesting.
I just downloaded the latest version of the Jumper rules, and don't see such a modification.

Giddy-up
May. 30, 2010, 04:15 PM
Thank you Janet.

So where does this leave me when the day comes this rider is in my class? Do I get the steward to handle it or actually plunk down the $200 to file a protest? I really don't want to be the pita of the horse show, but if those are the rules then they should be followed. I like this other rider & don't want to cause problems, but it needs to be correct.

Am I the only one who feels this way? Would other riders here say something if they were in the situation?

S A McKee
May. 30, 2010, 05:22 PM
Thank you Janet.

So where does this leave me when the day comes this rider is in my class? Do I get the steward to handle it or actually plunk down the $200 to file a protest? I really don't want to be the pita of the horse show, but if those are the rules then they should be followed. I like this other rider & don't want to cause problems, but it needs to be correct.

Am I the only one who feels this way? Would other riders here say something if they were in the situation?

As CBoylen pointed out a while back the Hunter and Jumper A/O rules were changed to match each other this year.
There may be no need to part with $200. Ask the steward about the situation and be guided by the officials reply. If you don't agree with or understand the answer you can then part with $200.
Also, read the zone rules carefully. Some zones have rules that allow, disallow or modify sections from the regular rule book.

Janet
May. 30, 2010, 11:12 PM
As CBoylen pointed out a while back the Hunter and Jumper A/O rules were changed to match each other this year.
There may be no need to part with $200. Ask the steward about the situation and be guided by the officials reply. If you don't agree with or understand the answer you can then part with $200.
Also, read the zone rules carefully. Some zones have rules that allow, disallow or modify sections from the regular rule book.
I agree.