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View Full Version : I know, I know, another ammy question



heartinrye
May. 24, 2010, 11:29 PM
Sorry! I'll try and make this short!

If I, an ammy, who owns my own horse, wanted to let my friend (who wants to come over from the natural horsemanship world!) show my horse in the W/T or W/T/C canter divisions at the same show I was going to show at, that would be ok?
I would trailer myself, pay for my show entries, and my lunch :)
She would pay her show entries.
We board at the same farm, where I pay full board (as in- I don't work any of it off).

She is a newbie and rather 'vocal', as in, she is always looking for conformation as to what she's doing is right or wrong (as in the correct diagonal).

***If I was at a show and wanted to either say yay/nay on her diagonal/ give her pointers, could I do so?*** I know that there is the trailering thing, but she wouldn't be paying me, as I would show my horse over fences myself later in the day.

TIA!

grandprixjump
May. 25, 2010, 12:32 AM
She can't pay you anything..... Other than that, go have fun, and straighten out your friend (Bring her to the H/J world)...

:lol::lol::lol:

Kikki
May. 25, 2010, 12:56 AM
I the strictest sense you have laid out, its just fine. Just to keep everything on the up and up, don't let money exchange hands. I have on a number of occasions been on diagonal duty at the short stirrup ring or otherwise watched a flat class to help out, but I certainly never get more than a thank you!

mvp
May. 25, 2010, 07:16 AM
You guys are all good as described, IMO.

But here's the thing: Y'all aren't the size fish the USEF is going after. Not dissing you as one horse owner and your friend as only showing on the flat. It's the size of your deal that's small. I don't think you are trading anything of enough value-- a noob using a horse for part of a day, you trailering, you coaching her a bit on your horse-- that's all pretty innocuous.

STA
May. 25, 2010, 08:09 AM
I think it is refreshing you are taking the time to look at all the possibilities. I too was showing as an amatuer and lent my horse to others to show, mainly in equitation classes. I drove to the show, played groom, gave pointers about the horse, how the horse should be ridden, warmed up the horse and rider, everything. Never took a penny for anything, but I don't know why you couldn't share the shipping expenses. Some people made comments, both trainers and other riders, but I was within the rules.

The USEF should be looking at anyone breaking the rules not just big fish.

heartinrye
May. 25, 2010, 08:45 AM
I think it is refreshing you are taking the time to look at all the possibilities. I too was showing as an amatuer and lent my horse to others to show, mainly in equitation classes. I drove to the show, played groom, gave pointers about the horse, how the horse should be ridden, warmed up the horse and rider, everything. Never took a penny for anything, but I don't know why you couldn't share the shipping expenses. Some people made comments, both trainers and other riders, but I was within the rules.

The USEF should be looking at anyone breaking the rules not just big fish.

Thanks to everyone, and no mvp no offense taken. I did the big AA circuit till last year and I am just burnt out. Switched barns, left my trainer and am down to one horse, I realize I'm no longer a big fish, which makes me VERY happy :yes:

And I would like to split shipping expenses except that the show is about 10 mins away, depending on how you hit the lights, so I don't know think having her giving me a quarter for half of the 1/4 gallon of gas I use is worth my ammy status! Haha!

findeight
May. 25, 2010, 09:28 AM
You can split expenses and even charge her for the whole thing. It's IF you work for your trainer or BO and you take money from others and RIDE horses owned by your employer or teach/train. Or if you directly take money from others as a rider, teacher, trainer.

You are fine splitting expenses on your own horse and accepting money for hauling it. Fine giving her a little coaching as long as you do not charge her for it.

Ummmm...if this is a local show? The "rules" can be a little vague. But on the more liberal side as far as defining "pro".

Go have fun.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
May. 25, 2010, 09:46 AM
Take a deep breath. Perhaps have a stiff drink. Repeat after me:

THE USEF AMMY RULE DOES NOT EXIST TO "CATCH" PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF.

You are not under the USEF's radar. Do not be alarmed. Further, it sounds like this is a local show, so you probably have a lot less to be concerned about.

Go and have fun. Stop worrying.

mvp
May. 25, 2010, 10:03 AM
I don't think the USEF should bother with small fish. Here's why:

There are many casual sharing deals like this that invite people into showing. They stay, they pay later but because they had a chance to get a taste.

If you are borrowing a horse for a day, I'll bet your cheating no one out of ribbons. When you are the catch riding ammy who's a fixture at shows week in, week out and winning, then the USEF perhaps ought to look closer. But they only do if someone complains (and pays to do so).

Investigating fish on any size is expensive. You can't complain about membership fees and then want this kind of crackdown. IMO, drug testing is money much better spent.

findeight
May. 25, 2010, 10:59 AM
I dunno, the back of the Equestrian magazine? The list of shame has had more Ammie busts then drug violations of late-much more spectacular with penalties and fines then your garden variety "concentration in excess of......" and the wrist slap.

And OP can consider this half leasing her horse. She can full lease it too and take money for that.

Janet
May. 25, 2010, 11:29 AM
The OP is not getting any remuneration, direct or indirect.

OF COURSE you can let her ride you horse in a show.

OF COURSE you can tell her if she is onthe wrong diagonal.

It doesn't matter if you are "under the Radar" or not, you are perfectly legal.



Ummmm...if this is a local show? The "rules" can be a little vague. But on the more liberal side as far as defining "pro".

Sure, but don't forget that what happens at an unrecognized show, or at hime, DOES affect your Amateur status at recognized shows.

NorthFaceFarm
May. 25, 2010, 11:53 AM
Whether the OP is the kind of person USEF is "after" doesn't really matter. We should all strive to live by the rules regardless of whether or not we would get caught breaking them.

STA
May. 25, 2010, 11:57 AM
Thanks to everyone, and no mvp no offense taken. I did the big AA circuit till last year and I am just burnt out. Switched barns, left my trainer and am down to one horse, I realize I'm no longer a big fish, which makes me VERY happy :yes:

And I would like to split shipping expenses except that the show is about 10 mins away, depending on how you hit the lights, so I don't know think having her giving me a quarter for half of the 1/4 gallon of gas I use is worth my ammy status! Haha!

Perhaps the rule has been changed, but I do not understand how you could lose your amatuer status by driving a horse to a horse show. I do not believe this would put your "ammy" status in question.

RockinHorse
May. 25, 2010, 06:52 PM
Whether the OP is the kind of person USEF is "after" doesn't really matter. We should all strive to live by the rules regardless of whether or not we would get caught breaking them.

I agree :yes:. How people behave when the chance of being caught doing something wrong is low, says a lot about their character.

heartinrye
May. 25, 2010, 07:30 PM
I agree :yes:. How people behave when the chance of being caught doing something wrong is low, says a lot about their character.

Yup, that's why I asked. I like playing by the rules :yes:

Whisper
May. 26, 2010, 11:20 AM
I agree, it's important to abide by the rules, not just avoid getting caught.:D In that situation, I would have her go up to the cashier and pay, or use her card at the pump, and you pay her for your share of the gas. That way, no money is directly changing hands from her to you the same day as you are helping her.

findeight
May. 26, 2010, 11:47 AM
I agree, it's important to abide by the rules, not just avoid getting caught.:D In that situation, I would have her go up to the cashier and pay, or use her card at the pump, and you pay her for your share of the gas. That way, no money is directly changing hands from her to you the same day as you are helping her.

Why? Taking money for gas/expenses and half leasing the horse for the show does NOT violate any Ammy restrictions. As long as she does not take money for coaching, which she is not doing, she is fine and 100% legal. No question should arise out of gas money.

Whisper
May. 26, 2010, 11:55 AM
She's planning to "coach" (realistically, just help) her friend. She isn't charging anything extra for it, just doing it as a favor, but if coaching and money exchanging hands occurs on the same day, it would still make me personally feel a little funny. So, just to have it clear in everyone's mind, it's easier to send the friend up to the cashier. She isn't violating the rules the other way around, I just figure it avoids any possibility, however remote, of misunderstanding.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
May. 26, 2010, 12:48 PM
She's planning to "coach" (realistically, just help) her friend. She isn't charging anything extra for it, just doing it as a favor, but if coaching and money exchanging hands occurs on the same day, it would still make me personally feel a little funny. So, just to have it clear in everyone's mind, it's easier to send the friend up to the cashier. She isn't violating the rules the other way around, I just figure it avoids any possibility, however remote, of misunderstanding.

Are you serious? I don't even know what to say. Send her to the cashier? At the gas station? Hahahaha. Make sure to avoid all those people with cameras, hiding in the bushes, too.

Seriously, OP, before this gets out of hand- You aren't breaking any rules, and although it's good to be concerned, there is no need to encourage the imaginations of people who think you pumping gas into your car is going to somehow put you in a vulnerable situation with the USEF. Take your friend and your horse and enjoy the show. You won't be doing anything wrong.

meupatdoes
May. 26, 2010, 01:29 PM
Why? Taking money for gas/expenses and half leasing the horse for the show does NOT violate any Ammy restrictions. As long as she does not take money for coaching, which she is not doing, she is fine and 100% legal. No question should arise out of gas money.

She can not take any money for half-leasing/hauling the horse AND stand there and help the rider on show day.

She can take money for half-leasing/hauling the horse OR stand there and help the rider on show day.

You can not take ANY money for ANY reason, be it braiding, hauling, leasing, bookkeeping, babysitting AND stand there and coach.
It does not matter if "the money is for the hauling, not the coaching." That is irrelevant.

You can
EITHER
a.) take money for any reason
OR
b.) coach/ride.

Otherwise I could "half-lease" my horse out for the convenient price of $60 per hour and then stand there and "help" the rider.
Oh no, he's not my lesson horse, he's just on a short term half-lease...

Janet
May. 26, 2010, 02:53 PM
She can not take any money for half-leasing/hauling the horse AND stand there and help the rider on show day.

She can take money for half-leasing/hauling the horse OR stand there and help the rider on show day.

You can not take ANY money for ANY reason, be it braiding, hauling, leasing, bookkeeping, babysitting AND stand there and coach.
It does not matter if "the money is for the hauling, not the coaching." That is irrelevant.

You can
EITHER
a.) take money for any reason
OR
b.) coach/ride.

Otherwise I could "half-lease" my horse out for the convenient price of $60 per hour and then stand there and "help" the rider.
Oh no, he's not my lesson horse, he's just on a short term half-lease...

She CAN take money for "reimbursement of expenses" without affecting her amateur status. (Though it is usually the other way round, the owner reimbursing the amateur rider's show related expenses.)

"Gas money" is "reimbursement of expenses."

"Lease fee" is not.