PDA

View Full Version : Business As Usual



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

DickHertz
Nov. 8, 2009, 01:38 PM
Gill horses seem to be breaking down at alarming rate.

judybigredpony
Nov. 8, 2009, 01:54 PM
If you think thats bad go have a look inside "Elk Creek Ranch" up tthe drive past the security gate.
Once inside you pass his neatly piled red canisters of "Bio Waste and Sharps right outside his fully stock in house pharmecy. With the banks of security cameras carefully watching everyones move.
Past the rows of wash stalls w/ horses either being injected, being prepped, or just finished, down the endless maze of clean stalls w/ fat, yes, shiny, yes, totally miserable faced horses. Some digging huge craters from pain of broken,chipped,slabbed, and achey joints (waiting for the weekly one way ride) to the new arrivels w/ freshly slit throats. A never ending factory for misery. And in truth they are well feed, well groomed and aesthetically well cared for horses. There are no rescues to be had or bought for rehab. Its a one way life for those horses and anyone who does NOT go claim their horse back needs to remember we all face a final judgement. This not a naive gospel rant, but when does this man get stopped. Ruled off forever, no horses ever to run in his name or any entity he is affiliated w/.
The revolving door of trainers there and on the track, the revolving door of help. A governing body unto the land of "Gill".

AppJumpr08
Nov. 8, 2009, 02:03 PM
:no::no::no:

Makes me beyond sad and sick...

:sigh:

cloudyandcallie
Nov. 8, 2009, 02:14 PM
Please keep reporting this. It's been going on at too many tracks for too many years. The horses are suffering and dying and the people responsible aren't being punished.

Creaghgal
Nov. 8, 2009, 02:42 PM
Makes the ride to the slaughter house look like a fun ride after suffering in places like that......

Sweet release.

Too sad for words.

Barnfairy
Nov. 8, 2009, 05:41 PM
I really don't think it's a case of people not caring. I think it's more that the racing system as it stands is not set up to eliminate persons such as Gill, particularly tracks which are so desperate for entries (I don't know if Penn is one of those, but Suffolk sure is.)

judybigredpony
Nov. 8, 2009, 06:43 PM
No one is going to put a stop to a person who fills entries.

Do you all want to make an impact...write, shout, and then start over.
Send leters to ever track commissioner and the JC and racing governing body, Loudly protesting and keep the pressure onnon stop, Name his break downs in bold letters dailey, Shun those who do his work.
Pressure every track vet to scrutinize his post parade horses.
Pressure to have everything he runs tagged n Super tested..every time...he will be getting days for sure. If they got pulled enough he would move to a new track and the pressure needs to be applied again and again. The Squeeky wheel gets the grease.
Some brave soul w/ some journalsitic b***s should go under cover @ his farm, now theres a smoking gun.
But none of this will get done. We will cry n denounce him but it will keep on going.
And No he is in such a minority he can not be lumped w/ other trainers, we should not villafey all for the few.
He is in the "land of Gill" a entitey unto itself.
Until the vets stop working for him, and trainers stop running his horses, stalls get denied, tracks refuse him license, ownership n abilitey to claim denied he will keep it up.
You don't sell him feed, or straw or hay, you don't shoe his horses you don't ship them and you don't take his money.
Some will but if enough say NO it slows the process...if he claims it go get it back. Start taking his stuff before he has it for to long.
Its all a one way street so start double parking and squeeze him.

mroades
Nov. 8, 2009, 08:15 PM
No one is going to put a stop to a person who fills entries.

Do you all want to make an impact...write, shout, and then start over.
Send leters to ever track commissioner and the JC and racing governing body, Loudly protesting and keep the pressure onnon stop, Name his break downs in bold letters dailey, Shun those who do his work.
Pressure every track vet to scrutinize his post parade horses.
Pressure to have everything he runs tagged n Super tested..every time...he will be getting days for sure. If they got pulled enough he would move to a new track and the pressure needs to be applied again and again. The Squeeky wheel gets the grease.
Some brave soul w/ some journalsitic b***s should go under cover @ his farm, now theres a smoking gun.
But none of this will get done. We will cry n denounce him but it will keep on going.
And No he is in such a minority he can not be lumped w/ other trainers, we should not villafey all for the few.
He is in the "land of Gill" a entitey unto itself.
Until the vets stop working for him, and trainers stop running his horses, stalls get denied, tracks refuse him license, ownership n abilitey to claim denied he will keep it up.
You don't sell him feed, or straw or hay, you don't shoe his horses you don't ship them and you don't take his money.
Some will but if enough say NO it slows the process...if he claims it go get it back. Start taking his stuff before he has it for to long.
Its all a one way street so start double parking and squeeze him.
And then get sued for it......

Arcadien
Nov. 8, 2009, 09:13 PM
And then get sued for it......

In light of this thread, and many questions in my head, I'm finally posting public - one of the horses I raised from a yearling til 3 was claimed by Gill in the spring.

He's run hard a few times for him in the last half a year, leading in the calls but not hitting the board, until just second last time out.

Keep hoping he's okay, or that he'll get claimed by someone else but as far as I know, I think he's still there. Not in the racing loop anymore, all I know are the old insinuations about Gill, not any facts. But you folks seem to know more, none of it good, so please,

What can I do? I think he is stabled at Phila Park, he runs there, sometimes at Penn Nat. His name is "New Yankee Man", a blood bay now 4 yo gelding, with white star.

PM or email me please if information is too delicate -

just want to keep track of this horse until he isn't earning his keep racing, especially since he seems to be in bad hands....so I can do as much as I can to be a safety net for him when/if he needs one...

Thanks,
arcadiafarm@juno.com

Laurierace
Nov. 8, 2009, 10:24 PM
Contact Gill and tell him you want to provide a home if and when the horse needs one. You would be doing him a favor so he will be happy to hear the news. Then sit and wait and be ready to move the minute you get the call. And take the horse no matter what his condition. Here's hoping the horse is protecting himself and gets to come home to you shortly.

TBMaggie
Nov. 8, 2009, 10:26 PM
Could someone here explain what the 'freshly slit throat' thing is about? I am very curious.. and would this procedure leave any tell-tale signs/scars?
Thanks! I have a gelding (13 now) who has a very weird neck scar.

Laurierace
Nov. 8, 2009, 11:04 PM
He routinely does myectomies. This generally does not leave a scar but its possible. He claimed Sylvester from me years ago. Sylvester was nine at the time and had come very close to equally track records in his last few starts. I got him back the first time they ran him and he had a semi healed myectomy. I thought if ever a horse had proven he could breathe....

Laurierace
Nov. 8, 2009, 11:04 PM
He routinely does myectomies. This generally does not leave a scar but its possible. He claimed Sylvester from me years ago. Sylvester was nine at the time and had come very close to equally track records in his last few starts. I got him back the first time they ran him and he had a semi healed myectomy. I thought if ever a horse had proven he could breathe....

Calamber
Nov. 8, 2009, 11:39 PM
This man is a butcher, pure and simple. I would think that if you looked at the financiers, that is, who is Penn National Gaming Inc. you would get far more of an answer as to why there is no action against someone who commits such criminal acts. Can someone take pictures of the "sharpies" and any of the other activity going on there such as what has been described before, myectomy day where horses are just laid out with cut throats whether they need it or not? I know of one trainer at Charles Town (PNGI owned) who was thrown out because he had needles in his truck from the vet who worked on his horse. He forgot they were there. One time and he was out, but Dickie already had it out for him. Small time thugs, maybe sometimes big time thugs and people are afraid of them, sometimes for very good reason. I know I was always careful about where I went and when, when I was working for him. We had a high win ratio and we were not part of the GOB network.

It just takes one person to make this kind of torture go away, yes, you are in danger of becoming a "statistic" or unemployed if your livelihood depends upon this environment. It reminds me of what I think is going on at some of the breeding farms. I know that the youngstock are being given growth hormones to fatten them and overfed to give them "bloom" for the sales. There are vets who provide that service, same goes for them. Just like the narcotics trade, there has to be a customer and and there will be a provider, only unless you trace out the money trail will you be able to get the kind of lowlifes that protect them It is not something you want to do willy nilly and certainly not alone. It does take a community of people with guts and who will back each other up, keeping people afraid and pitted against each other, that is their MO.

As far as the person with the horse, I really feel for you but I do not think he will follow up or respond to your call about the horse you care about. As far as I know there are a few "trainers" who give orders that their horses are not to be given to "rescue", or to someone who they view as a "bleeding heart", and he sounds like just such a cold sob.

As far as I know, he will not let his horses go out the door unless they are sold, and only when they are used up or claimed before that happens. It is strictly dollars for him. Nothing more. If it were my horse and I could do it, I would just claim it, no sense in waiting for the inevitable.

judybigredpony
Nov. 9, 2009, 08:49 AM
Calamber I was offered up 5-6 Gill horses...for free...and they were not worth the gas it took to drive over. A quick out forever was the kindest thing for them all.

Sharps containers...you can have what ever you want on your own property.
Don't look in my fridge or trash. Farms do not fall under any tracks jurisdiction.

Which is one reason why he has one, w/ Equisizer, gate and track. Private not visable from road w/ a security gated driveway and really no one knows the place is even there.

When he was in financial problems he tried to sell the place but none of teh sales ever took, and really is so big and such a "Warehouse" like place who would want to stable there.

Center area over offices n wash stalls is 2 story and houses help.

SleepyFox
Nov. 9, 2009, 10:29 AM
Dick, Penn really isn't doing pre-race vet checks? Are they scratching anything in the paddock?

I'm curious - how do Gill's horses look in the paddock and post? Are these horses visibly lame? Does he have trouble getting a jock?

I have a couple of points to make after reading the replies...
A track cannot single out one person's stock to perform random tests on. That's not a road we need to head down b/c it could just as easily lead to someone being excluded from testing. It needs to be random. Also, remember Gill has a high win percentage and starts a lot of horses - his stock gets tested pretty frequently.

Myectomies are not the same as "slitting the throat." Let's get real people. Gill (like most big barns) runs a cookie cutter operation. I don't think every horse needs a myectomy, but Gill thinks it can't hurt, so he does it. It's his money and it really doesn't hurt the horse. Painting the procedure as a sign of a butcher isn't accurate.

Sharps containers on the farm are actually a sign of responsible management (he knows how to dispose of needles properly!). Not a sign of a butcher. Assuming the presence of needles means something sinister is kind of silly. And, if he has a horse sore enough to be digging a hole in his stall, do you really want him NOT to treat it? That doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying the guy is a saint, but some of the accusations here just don't make sense.

SleepyFox
Nov. 9, 2009, 04:52 PM
The state vets at Penn are only checking in the ship-in barn? Everything stabled there or that is using a ship-in stall is only looked at in the paddock? How do they justify that?

What kind of injuries are Gill's horses suffering? What's the overall breakdown rate there right now?

By how much has Gill's win percentage improved and breakdown rate inflated since Norman came on board? (And what does his criminal record have to to with his ability to train a horse?)

plain bay
Nov. 9, 2009, 10:10 PM
I watched as a very nice looking 2 year old broke down at Penn National on Saturday night in the 3rd race (literally right in front of me), Gus The Firefly. I'm not sure what exactly happened to him as he fell to the ground after the race and from where I stood, it looked as if he may have had a heart attack or something similar as he appeared to die shortly after he went down, before the ambulence pulled up, but I'm not positive. It also may have been that he broke his leg/ankle and went into shock because his left front seemed to hang at a weird angle when he went down, but it may have been just how I was looking at it.

It wasn't a Gill horse this time but it definitely seems that there a lot of breakdowns at Penn lately, scary and such a shame...

If anyone on here knows exactly what happened with Gus The Firefly could you please PM me? It was so painful to watch... I had seen him in the paddock and spent the whole race telling my friends how I loved the look of this boy and would love to have him in as my own to turn into a hunter.

TKR
Nov. 9, 2009, 10:48 PM
Dick or someone there should do some video and write up the story and stats and send it to the local news, The Blood Horse, some of the sports stations or Bryant Gumble -- whatever -- publicity is the only way to get something done. This guy is a horse terrorist and should be outed and kicked to the curb.
PennyG

judybigredpony
Nov. 9, 2009, 11:13 PM
And then get sued for it......

For what ?? any independent contractor has the right to refuse to sell / service anything to anyone at anytime.
With exception of firefighters and ER personel.

judybigredpony
Nov. 9, 2009, 11:38 PM
Dick, Penn really isn't doing pre-race vet checks? Are they scratching anything in the paddock?

I'm curious - how do Gill's horses look in the paddock and post? Are these horses visibly lame? Does he have trouble getting a jock?

I have a couple of points to make after reading the replies...
A track cannot single out one person's stock to perform random tests on. That's not a road we need to head down b/c it could just as easily lead to someone being excluded from testing. It needs to be random. Also, remember Gill has a high win percentage and starts a lot of horses - his stock gets tested pretty frequently.

And since it costs more they don't Super test which is the only way to catch alot of the drugs.

This has been noted before, any track can deny privledges @ their discretion, and quite a few already have done so.

Myectomies are not the same as "slitting the throat." Let's get real people. Gill (like most big barns) runs a cookie cutter operation. I don't think every horse needs a myectomy, but Gill thinks it can't hurt, so he does it. It's his money and it really doesn't hurt the horse. Painting the procedure as a sign of a butcher isn't accurate.

This term is not meant as a butchering technique but the exact term one of his previous vets used to use when going over to preform the surgery on his latest batch of claims.

Sharps containers on the farm are actually a sign of responsible management (he knows how to dispose of needles properly!). Not a sign of a butcher. Assuming the presence of needles means something sinister is kind of silly.

No it indicates the huge amount of needles disposed of on a regular bases, more than ...in fact he is the only barn I have ever been in that was not a vets facilety w/ that many medical waste bins and sharpes containers period. Seriously how many training barns do you know with a wall stack??

And, if he has a horse sore enough to be digging a hole in his stall, do you really want him NOT to treat it? That doesn't make sense.

So you totally missed that one..when a horse is standing in a *****ng crater is shaking w/ pain and left tied to a wall do ya think he's been treated for the pain...??

I'm not saying the guy is a saint, but some of the accusations here just don't make sense.

All this is not accusations, not seen by some bleeding heart rescue innocent. These are just plain real facts no hype no drama.Its a warehouse for horses. Walmart racing factory.
I also stated they had clean stalls, were all groomed, all well feed, fat n shiny. Alot sporting wraps n poultice This was not from just one quick peek but witnessed on more than one occassion.
As for Cole being a convicted felon, not my comment, I did not make that remark.

Gill hires what he can get:)

sjdressage
Nov. 10, 2009, 07:19 AM
In the wrong business? I am just starting out again training a string of racehorses for a few owners after a few years in corporate america to actually make some money. My niche used to be bringing along horses with problems (after chip surgery, etc.) and getting them racing again. Probably because of my background working with vets, etc. Of course, since I am just starting, this is the case again. But I love it, watching the progress and seeing the horses bloom and the ultrasounds improve, etc.

Here is the alarming part...Many people in the industry have felt free to offer their unsolicited advice about my horses. I just laugh and keep working. The common theme is that they should be running to make money and if I like the horses I am in the wrong business. If I am not willing to drug them up and go, I will never succeed. Of course, these are not eclipse award winning people but the bottom of the barrel. It is also not a new theme since I lost a horse in 1996 because I walked a horse in the shedrow instead of taking it to the track because she had heat in her leg, she had part of her sesamoid removed and I was being careful. The owner said point blank that if she was going to break down, he wanted her to do it soon rather than after 3 months of training. I was like "how about we don't break her down?".
I know in my gut that I do the right thing, what is a couple of weeks to get them right when there has been years of $ invested in them? But, I can't help but worry that running them at the appropriate level makes them prey for these losers. It also creates a situation that jockeys don't want to try or even ride for trainers that aren't huge because they know this goes on and don't want to get killed.

Anyway, maybe I am delusional, but I will continue to treat each one like they are Zenyatta or RA and hope that I can compete with these POS people who treat them like a number....please say there are others out there....

Dispatcher
Nov. 10, 2009, 08:05 AM
Calamber I was offered up 5-6 Gill horses...for free...and they were not worth the gas it took to drive over. A quick out forever was the kindest thing for them all.

Sharps containers...you can have what ever you want on your own property.
Don't look in my fridge or trash. Farms do not fall under any tracks jurisdiction.

Which is one reason why he has one, w/ Equisizer, gate and track. Private not visable from road w/ a security gated driveway and really no one knows the place is even there.

When he was in financial problems he tried to sell the place but none of teh sales ever took, and really is so big and such a "Warehouse" like place who would want to stable there.

Center area over offices n wash stalls is 2 story and houses help.

What was wrong with these 5-6 horses?

SleepyFox
Nov. 10, 2009, 10:42 AM
And since it costs more they don't Super test which is the only way to catch alot of the drugs.

My point is super tests need to be kept random - if it's not random there is way to much room for abuse. Penn draws for a super every night (I think they race at night?), don't they? With Gill's number of starters, he gets tested a lot. Singling him out for testing more, isn't going to do anything except set a dangerous precedent. And, not b/c I think you shouldn't test suspected cheats, but if you start picking and choosing who you test, it leaves the door open to bypass certain people.


This has been noted before, any track can deny privledges @ their discretion, and quite a few already have done so.

But, there needs to be a solid reason. Every successful trainer is accused of cheating. Just because someone is accused of cheating or people on the internet don't like his choice of employees or the way he treats his stock like assets, that's not very good justification for sanctions.


So you totally missed that one..when a horse is standing in a *****ng crater is shaking w/ pain and left tied to a wall do ya think he's been treated for the pain...??

Wait. So, this guy has this barn where they're injecting everything in sight and yet he's got horses in obvious pain that they aren't treating? That makes no sense. He's treating everything but those that really need it? And, then you go on to say it's a "Walmart racing factory." I assure you, if he's running a "racing factory" he isn't going to try to run a horse that is shaking with pain. So, yeah, I'd say if that was the case, they were working on the horse.


As for Cole being a convicted felon, not my comment, I did not make that remark.

Gill hires what he can get

Sorry for the confusion. My comment was aimed at Dick who has some strong dislike for Cole Norman that I don't understand. Felony conviction aside, Norman has an excellent eye for claiming and I'm not surprised that Gill would want him on board.


They should fall under jurisdiction of the racing commission. In many racing jurisdictions yards/farms are subject to initial approval and random spot checks at any time. Refusal to comply will result in the trainer's lisence being revoked.

Drvmb, where in the US are you not allowed to use needles on the farm?

Again, I'm not saying this guy is a saint. But the accusations are all over the board and don't make much sense.

SleepyFox
Nov. 10, 2009, 10:57 AM
I'm aware of that.
But there is no reason they could not be under the jurisdiction of the racing commission. Private property argument doesn't hold up, a lisence is a privilege not a right, if you don't let inspectors on your property then you don't get to play the game.
Look at the farce of Biancone being under suspension yet training away at a private facility.

Sure. But, what is he doing that is illegal? Only a licensed vet is allowed to have needles on track property. But, it's perfectly legal for anyone to have needles off track property. So, even if they inspected the farm, what are they going to find that is illegal?

SleepyFox
Nov. 10, 2009, 11:07 AM
Sleepy,

the purpose of the thread was to merely point out the number of breakdowns - which I think even you will acknowledge is alarming. That is fact and not speculation. You can review the charts at www.equibase.com.

Are you willing to go on record as saying that Cole Norman has a clean history with positive drug tests? What does his ability in claiming horses have anything to do with the fact that he's been kicked out of racing?


It is an alarming number of breakdowns and it makes me curious about what is happening. You would think with the number of breakdowns Penn is experiencing (and the documented surface issues) that the vets would be extra dilligent in checking horses. There's an interesting lawsuit going on right now where an owner is suing b/c the horse broke down and the owner claims the vets should have scratched the horse pre-race. (I really don't think that responsibility should lie with the state vets. If the horse was that hurt, it should have been noticed in the barn prior to the vets even looking at it.) But, depending on the outcome, it could have other jurisdictions paying more attention to pre-race exams.

It's the subsequent speculation and hyperbole about Gill's operation that I take issue with. ;)

All I'm saying is Norman knows how to run a claiming barn. And is criminal record has no impact on his ability as a horseman.

judybigredpony
Nov. 10, 2009, 05:04 PM
What was wrong with these 5-6 horses?

Slabbbed knee dead stone 3 leg lame.

Fractured cannon bone (condylar) to joint 3 leg lame

Knee chips removed re chipped knee super SORE

Sore, Lame, fat knees w/ ankles.

Suspicious suspensory and badly run down long weak pasterns.

judybigredpony
Nov. 10, 2009, 05:30 PM
And I agree about Norman knowing how to run a claiming barn. However, many successful claiming barns are successful because of making the horses feel sounder than they are. I've had previously trained Norman horses. I'm not just talking out of my a**. The needles enter the joints often.

:)Ahh..Dickie you warm the cockles of my heart....and I to am NOT talking out of my a****.
I have the unique position of not only seeing w/ my own eyes...but thru the eyes of those who did the deeds there.
And yes I saw more than one ...done horse... in total abject PAIN. Sweating shaking and digging because they were most likely waiting for "The Majic Number" to apply and have a one way trip.
His horses are not tropheys in a sportsman like situation.Nor respected cherished athletes.
These are Nascars on 4 legs...revve em cut the legal corner as close or over the line as you can get...an when the tires blow and engine fails. Go get another one.
Gill does not seem to have one molecule of compassion or "Love of the Sport"...Sport being the operative word. ITS A BUSINESS.

And to consider him responsible cause he has a sharps contain is just naive. He is not worth defending on any level.

When you win by sheer volum of number of starters, and exactly how many horses has he brought up thru the ranks from 2yrs old on?? Dickie some statistics please. He takes someone elses works in progress..nothing wrong there but the huge numberts and just plain raids???
Look at the list of trainers who he says he fired and add to the ones who plain quit him. Take in the qualities as he goes down and down thru the trainer ranks.

If Cole were such a "sterling" individual of moral pulchritude w/ highly regarded in demand prows why on earth would he stope to train for someone of Gill's ilk?

Muleskick
Nov. 10, 2009, 09:48 PM
Had to chime in on this one. Actually racetracks are considered private property and they can exclude any one they like by naming them as an undesireable. Just ask Julio Cartegena (don't want to open that can of worms), disallowed to enter and run at CT, reason: he scratched his horses to often, Casey Cartegena disallowed to enter and run at CT, reason: her association with Julio (her father). Or I guess you could ask Michael Gill himself, disallowed at Delaware and Gulfstream reason: he claimed entire divisions of horses. We all know these are'nt really legit reasons but they held up in court, so yes a track can rule you off.
All tracks are having trouble filling there entries so they are less inclined to want to exclude large stables, however as I mentioned above they do it.
As for Gill's general care level it is top of the line, I was stabled next to on of his strings. As to want he does to the horses pre race BRUTAL, everyhorse that ran was pulled out into the shed row and had both ankles, both knees, and both hocks injected, EVERYTIME it ran. You can only go to the well so many times before there is nothing left, perhaps the reason for the high breakdown rate.

Calamber
Nov. 10, 2009, 10:58 PM
Sleepyfox, myectomies do require slitting the throat. Perhaps you do not like the fragrant language, but it is what it is. I used to work for various vets and watched and assisted in multiple surgeries. What would qualify as a butcher in your book? This hack has surgeries on all of his horses. Any surgery, even those that are necessary, carry a risk. I have seen the horses (not Gill's) who have had this "procedure", that did not quite work. For the rest of it's life, the food and water (at least some of it) will run out of it's nose, one of them was a Two Punch son, and as kind as a kitten otherwise. Why would anyone in their right mind cut on an otherwise healthy horse, just because he "thinks" it will help?

Judy, sorry you had to see that and continue to have to watch this corrossive influence. Makes everyone bitter and something can be done. The Jockey Club has a project where they purport to be interested in working on the medical assistance aspect of the racing industry, maybe we can add unnecessary medical procedures to the list, to include denerving, and injecting every joint with a Depo cocktail. What used to make me gag was to watch while joints were bled (tapped) and then more injections and off to the races. It was considered just normal maintenance and prerace prep.

Dispatcher
Nov. 11, 2009, 08:02 AM
Slabbbed knee dead stone 3 leg lame.

Fractured cannon bone (condylar) to joint 3 leg lame

Knee chips removed re chipped knee super SORE

Sore, Lame, fat knees w/ ankles.

Suspicious suspensory and badly run down long weak pasterns.

Cripes. What a helluva mess.

SleepyFox
Nov. 11, 2009, 09:40 AM
Sleepyfox, myectomies do require slitting the throat. Perhaps you do not like the fragrant language, but it is what it is.

I believe the technical term is "incision." ;)



Why would anyone in their right mind cut on an otherwise healthy horse, just because he "thinks" it will help?

IMO, across-the-board myectomies is silly. Obviously, Gill believes in it and not just because he's sadistic - I'm sure he has a rationale behind that investment. But, to answer your question, there is no throat surgery that is guaranteed to help. You never "know" that you'll be able to fix or help the problem.


What used to make me gag was to watch while joints were bled (tapped) and then more injections and off to the races.

Again with the misleading language. Joints are not tapped in some modern version of leeching, but rather to release pressure from buillt up fluid. Tapping a joint isn't unecessary if the horse has pressure - it makes the horse much more comfortable.

SleepyFox
Nov. 11, 2009, 10:39 AM
Again, the reality amidst this entire discussion is that Gill's horses are breaking down at an alarming rate over the last 30 days at Penn. It's too much of a sample to just say it's a fluke.

Why do you think that is? How is the overall breakdown rate right now? I mean, myectomies and joint injections aren't leading to breakdowns. What do you think is going on?

Acertainsmile
Nov. 11, 2009, 10:42 AM
I believe the technical term is "incision." ;)

Incision may be the technical term, but it's usually referred to as "cutting their throats"...most trainers use this "language".

IMO, across-the-board myectomies is silly. Obviously, Gill believes in it and not just because he's sadistic - I'm sure he has a rationale behind that investment. But, to answer your question, there is no throat surgery that is guaranteed to help. You never "know" that you'll be able to fix or help the problem.



Again with the misleading language. Joints are not tapped in some modern version of leeching, but rather to release pressure from buillt up fluid. Tapping a joint isn't unecessary if the horse has pressure - it makes the horse much more comfortable.

Once again, ask any trainer on the backside, and they will use the term "tapped"... in fact, so will most vets. Just saying...

foundationmare
Nov. 11, 2009, 07:19 PM
Sleepy Fox, what is your connection to Michael Gill? Seriously, the man has a horrible reputation and treats his stock like meat. Sorry if it offends you that there are people here, speaking for myself, who think that his treatment of his horses is cruel. Where do they end up when they're done racing?

Frankly, I don't think he gives a sh** about any of his horses unless they're making him money. Okay, it's a business, I get that.

You know what? If an owner/ trainer is hell-bent on winning races and will push the envelope to do that, they will take chances that may enhance the horse's performance. They will do whatever they need to do to get a check from the horse. Sometimes that means that the horse has been given "magickal" medicine to achieve that goal. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get it.

AppJumpr08
Nov. 11, 2009, 07:32 PM
Sleepy Fox, what is your connection to Michael Gill? Seriously, the man has a horrible reputation and treats his stock like meat. Sorry if it offends you that there are people here, speaking for myself, who think that his treatment of his horses is cruel. Where do they end up when they're done racing?

Frankly, I don't think he gives a sh** about any of his horses unless they're making him money. Okay, it's a business, I get that.

You know what? If an owner/ trainer is hell-bent on winning races and will push the envelope to do that, they will take chances that may enhance the horse's performance. They will do whatever they need to do to get a check from the horse. Sometimes that means that the horse has been given "magickal" medicine to achieve that goal. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get it.

Amen. Thank you.

SleepyFox
Nov. 12, 2009, 09:39 AM
They will do whatever they need to do to get a check from the horse.

Foundationmare, I agree with you on this (although I feel compelled to remind everyone that this is true of a segment of the population in every horse sport). I'm not making allegations regarding Gill, but I have seen my fair share of horses sacrificed for the sake of a potential payday and I do take issue with that.

As I've stated before, my defense of Gill's operation is that injecting joints and performing myectomies does not make one a butcher. It's not that I think he runs a model barn, it's that I think people get a little over the top in the bashing of him.

AppJumpr08
Nov. 12, 2009, 10:15 AM
Mike Gill is perhaps the highest profile lowlife owner in the entire industry. I don't think the bashing is over the top at all.

I have no issues with doing procedures to keep horses comfortable in their work as long as they are reasonable. Tapping and injecting lame horses to get "one more race" is irresponsible and cruel. Gill certainly isn't the only one who does it, but he's one of the most high profile. Just because he has a huge barn doesn't make it ok.

I, for one, dream of the day when karma finally kicks his a$$

Alagirl
Nov. 12, 2009, 12:35 PM
Maybe start a betting pool on how many horses break down on the card? I am sure somebody would bet on it if a bookie offered!

I would like to see Gill's books tho, there is no way he can actually make money from that... :confused:

Calamber
Nov. 18, 2009, 09:04 PM
Sleepy, wiggling around with semantics aside, you need to stand in on some surgeries of horses who have have their joints tapped repeatedly and been injected with any number of concoctions whose end result was no joint fluid and bone on bone. Forever Joe casts his shadow over all of my thoughts on these matters and I will fight it in his memory. There was bone on bone and he was continuing to be injected and run. And, you are dead, (sorry for the pun) dead, wrong. Unnecessary procedures will cause breakdowns. So unbelieveable that you can defend these kind of actions as just an "opinion" and that he can do whatever he likes to do just because they are his horses and isn't this a free world. What a bunch of unmitigated horse manure.

As far as the stats for breakdowns, they are very often muddied because Penn National (I know their MO from Charles Town), does not want to have horses euthanized on the track or on the ambulance because it counts as a stat. There is no official record made of horses who have come back to the barn and been euthanized, or who have had career ending injuries as a result of a race injury, so the stats are skewed anyway.

nightmoves
Nov. 18, 2009, 09:10 PM
If you think thats bad go have a look inside "Elk Creek Ranch" up tthe drive past the security gate.
Once inside you pass his neatly piled red canisters of "Bio Waste and Sharps right outside his fully stock in house pharmecy. With the banks of security cameras carefully watching everyones move.
Past the rows of wash stalls w/ horses either being injected, being prepped, or just finished, down the endless maze of clean stalls w/ fat, yes, shiny, yes, totally miserable faced horses. Some digging huge craters from pain of broken,chipped,slabbed, and achey joints (waiting for the weekly one way ride) to the new arrivels w/ freshly slit throats. A never ending factory for misery. And in truth they are well feed, well groomed and aesthetically well cared for horses. There are no rescues to be had or bought for rehab. Its a one way life for those horses and anyone who does NOT go claim their horse back needs to remember we all face a final judgement. This not a naive gospel rant, but when does this man get stopped. Ruled off forever, no horses ever to run in his name or any entity he is affiliated w/.
The revolving door of trainers there and on the track, the revolving door of help. A governing body unto the land of "Gill". This is oh so true and it happens allover. Makes me sick and I'm starting to hate the whole business of TB racing.

festus
Nov. 18, 2009, 10:27 PM
In the thoroughbred world this is all common place. the judges, the racing office all officials and trainers and many owners think this is just the way it is. I hear stories all the time from coast to coast, about trainer and or owners deliberately hurting the horse they sold or was claimed off them etc... One guy took a 2by4 to a horses knees, another guy took a board filled it full of nails and put it in a stall of a horse he sold, the next day when the trainer picked up the horse she couldnt walk. wouldnt give money back either.
I watched a a "trainer" beat an owners 2 yr old filly trying to load her for over an hour. I finally just walked up and loaded her in 5 minutes with feed. as the owner him self stood there whip at the ready to beat her another hour.
I see them constantly mistreated, constantly, do bad deal after bad deal, selling horses that are lame and doped up, or cant ride and dangerous from so much mishandling and poor horsemanship. I know a guy who reported a guy for givning his horse a shot because the guy took his wife off the horse to ride, and the guards laughed about it as they told the guy, and the judges did nothing. the same guy sold a horse cheap that raced good, and after the horse raced good first start he went in his stall and filled her full of hormones.
Another trainer dumped some sort of acid in another trainer's horses mouths. you here scarry stories from coast to coast, safest way to race a horse is standardbreds. much more honest people way more integrity.

Laurierace
Nov. 18, 2009, 10:43 PM
I don't know what Throughbred world you live in but I have been in the business for almost 20 years and have never seen anything close to what you have described. Maybe you need to start hanging around a better track?

WinterTriangle
Nov. 18, 2009, 10:51 PM
This is oh so true and it happens allover. Makes me sick and I'm starting to hate the whole business of TB racing.


My new year's resolution is that I'm taking my money out of US drug-induced racing.

I'll be wagering only on horses running in countries that do not allow it.

There are models out there, it's not like all the problems can't be solved. It's just that nobody here makes it a PRIORITY.

I've noticed in life, when you make something a priority..... whether in your personal life or business......it gets HANDLED.

Instead, we have many excuses.

which is fine, except there are live beings involved here. Which makes me draw the line in the sand.

nightmoves
Nov. 19, 2009, 07:27 AM
I don't know what Throughbred world you live in but I have been in the business for almost 20 years and have never seen anything close to what you have described. Maybe you need to start hanging around a better track?

I think you're just used to it as it is. Had a horse sponged on several occasions and nothing was ever done about it they completely blew it off.

Laurierace
Nov. 19, 2009, 08:37 AM
I have never had anyone lay a hand on any of my horses nor have I witnessed anyone abusing a horse in my presense. There is nothing to get used to.

nightmoves
Nov. 19, 2009, 09:55 AM
Well then consider yourself very lucky.

lily04
Nov. 19, 2009, 01:40 PM
I have been in the business and am on the backside everyday for over 35 years and my father and grandfather were also owner/trainers and I have NEVER witnessed anything like Festus has described. There is a VERY SMALL percentage that cheat or abuse but most of us do not.

judybigredpony
Nov. 19, 2009, 05:48 PM
Sleepy, wiggling around with semantics aside, you need to stand in on some surgeries of horses who have have their joints tapped repeatedly and been injected with any number of concoctions whose end result was no joint fluid and bone on bone. Forever Joe casts his shadow over all of my thoughts on these matters and I will fight it in his memory. There was bone on bone and he was continuing to be injected and run. And, you are dead, (sorry for the pun) dead, wrong. Unnecessary procedures will cause breakdowns. So unbelieveable that you can defend these kind of actions as just an "opinion" and that he can do whatever he likes to do just because they are his horses and isn't this a free world. What a bunch of unmitigated horse manure.

As far as the stats for breakdowns, they are very often muddied because Penn National (I know their MO from Charles Town), does not want to have horses euthanized on the track or on the ambulance because it counts as a stat. There is no official record made of horses who have come back to the barn and been euthanized, or who have had career ending injuries as a result of a race injury, so the stats are skewed anyway.


So well said, I have lay-ups who come in w/ ankles and after a few months off they are stone cripples...why...because when we x-ray the joint is shot to he**...bone on bone..he** the bone looks like swiss cheese from all the concotions some of these vets cook-up to inject into joints.
I almost bought the most beautifull colt he was breath taking, but kept joggin just a fraction off after a flex. But he had a decent form and exercise rider swore he was sound. After a bit of sleuthing we uncovered his knee injection rate. I had 1 x-ray taken and trust me I wouldn't have trotted him round a track let alone race him. The joint was degenerating from all of the injections.

foundationmare
Nov. 19, 2009, 08:05 PM
Not long ago, my daughter, who, with her fiance, has a string at Penn, told me about a horse being put down there in the morning.

She's an exercise rider as well and was coming off the track when a horse was put down. The horse was in a pen, in full view, until the vets got around to euthing him/her. Apparently he/she had a broken knee.

My daughter was upset because the horse stood in the pen during training hours and was euthed during training hours, and then was on display for all to see as the events of the morning carried on. One of her young horses witnessed the euth as he exited the track.

This is not a commentary on the topic at hand, but, wtf, can't they be put down with more dignity?

AppJumpr08
Nov. 19, 2009, 08:35 PM
So well said, I have lay-ups who come in w/ ankles and after a few months off they are stone cripples...why...because when we x-ray the joint is shot to he**...bone on bone..he** the bone looks like swiss cheese from all the concotions some of these vets cook-up to inject into joints.
I almost bought the most beautifull colt he was breath taking, but kept joggin just a fraction off after a flex. But he had a decent form and exercise rider swore he was sound. After a bit of sleuthing we uncovered his knee injection rate. I had 1 x-ray taken and trust me I wouldn't have trotted him round a track let alone race him. The joint was degenerating from all of the injections.

I took a lovely 3 year old filly last fall who we had to euth because her knees were totally shot. Injected so many times there was nothing left. Bone was swiss cheese, joint space was gone. 3 FREAKIN YEARS OLD. 14 starts. She would've been a lovely child's hunter. Instead, we had to give her the release she so badly needed. Broke my heart. I still think about her, and it still brings tears to my eyes.
I love racing, but those who find it normal and ok to do things like that to an animal need to start racing cars.

judybigredpony
Nov. 25, 2009, 10:35 AM
So the lasted installment of the as "The Worm Turns" Gill
Has fired top caliber Firm of Tiegland Brokken and Franklin as vet du Jour and may now be using Dr Brook Harper???

Fascinating will he ever run out of vets desperate enough to be associated w/ his ilk??

Alagirl
Nov. 25, 2009, 12:28 PM
There are some rather credible rumblings about the Gill situation at Penn National, but against my very willingness to post them, I'm going to wait until they become factual.

Oh, you are such a tease! :lol:

Jessi P
Nov. 25, 2009, 01:50 PM
I have seen this same thing many times. The reason they wait until after training hours to euth the horse is so that the horse ambulance can be brought to the horse's stall/barn, as close as possible, so that they can immediately remove the horse. The other option is to euth the horse and leave it laying in the street in between the barns until after training hours, most people prefer not to do this, but it is done sometimes, then the horse is covered with a tarp or blanket. The horse ambulance is REQUIRED to be on hand at the racetrack in case any exercising horse needs it, they cannot leave their post until after training hours. Its pretty standard procedure - if the vet knows he has to euth a horse in say, 3 hours, the horse WILL get painkillers in order to make that time as comfortable as possible.



Not long ago, my daughter, who, with her fiance, has a string at Penn, told me about a horse being put down there in the morning.

She's an exercise rider as well and was coming off the track when a horse was put down. The horse was in a pen, in full view, until the vets got around to euthing him/her. Apparently he/she had a broken knee.

My daughter was upset because the horse stood in the pen during training hours and was euthed during training hours, and then was on display for all to see as the events of the morning carried on. One of her young horses witnessed the euth as he exited the track.

This is not a commentary on the topic at hand, but, wtf, can't they be put down with more dignity?

judybigredpony
Nov. 25, 2009, 04:36 PM
:yes:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL9OAudSCGo

tbracer65
Nov. 25, 2009, 06:22 PM
:yes:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL9OAudSCGo

Yeah -- good fit with this thread...a friend of mine sent that to me a long time ago. Funny...but sad & true:winkgrin::no:

Calamber
Nov. 25, 2009, 11:09 PM
Oh my god Judy, that was hilarious! Can you send that to Mr. Gill, hopefully that is the "rumbling" that Dick heard. Thanks for the laugh.

lily04
Nov. 25, 2009, 11:15 PM
There are some rather credible rumblings about the Gill situation at Penn National, but against my very willingness to post them, I'm going to wait until they become factual.I think I heard the same as you and from a very reliable source, but like the incident last month it will probably just go away.

LittleblackMorgan
Nov. 25, 2009, 11:39 PM
Ok, I have owned a Gill horse. DISGUSTING

Despite my battle for papers, which I never got, I ended up with a severly arthritic horse, bone on bone almost, emaciated, bald.

When I bitched I was offered another Gill horse, same age, probably the same condition, for $100.

I passed. When I am shopping for my next TB, if I see his name or any of his trainers names, I dont give a rats @ss if the horse is 17.3, flawless and sweet as pie, and under 1k, PASS.

judybigredpony
Nov. 27, 2009, 10:34 PM
I have been urged to make inquiries about buying a horse out of Gills string.
Owners lost on a good $$ claim to him.
But now that they have gelded him did his throat and subjected him to taps n injections for every start my vet threw the big red caution are you nuts flag over my head.
Plus w/ Tieglands vet crew gone and the new vet gal on board Gill is soley driving that bus and dreaming up G** only knows what home brews to inject.
Lets tap his knees and ankles inject his feet change his shoes 2-3 times a week on a whim, drill his sinuses, pump him w/ steroids, feed him till he burst, the shove him in a starting gate, stick a chimpanze on his back and hot shot him down the lane:yes: and thats a mild assesment and not impuning his dignety.

Las Olas
Nov. 28, 2009, 10:48 AM
I hear stories all the time from coast to coast, about trainer and or owners deliberately hurting the horse they sold or was claimed off them etc... One guy took a 2by4 to a horses knees, another guy took a board filled it full of nails and put it in a stall of a horse he sold, the next day when the trainer picked up the horse she couldnt walk.

That is absolutely ridiculous. Anyone who has ever been to the races knows that claimed horses change hands either in front of the grandstand after the race, or they are walked back into the paddock area to change hands. They aren't taken back to the original trainer's barn where they cripple the horse before the new trainer picks him up. Seriously, try to be rational. No one would drop a claim if they knew the horse would be crippled, yet horses are being claimed every day.

Laurierace
Nov. 28, 2009, 12:29 PM
That is absolutely ridiculous. Anyone who has ever been to the races knows that claimed horses change hands either in front of the grandstand after the race, or they are walked back into the paddock area to change hands. They aren't taken back to the original trainer's barn where they cripple the horse before the new trainer picks him up. Seriously, try to be rational. No one would drop a claim if they knew the horse would be crippled, yet horses are being claimed every day.

Don't cloud this thread with logic! We must remain hyterical to all the horrors that surround us. Either that or you must not be paying attention either because racing is EVIL!

Barbara L.
Nov. 28, 2009, 01:50 PM
What I find most offensive about Judysbigredpony's "story" about a Gill horse is not what she has heard the guy does, or says what the guy and his vets do, but by calling riders "chimpanzees." Am I being too sensitive here, or was that comment just an unfunny joke.

These guys take their lives into their hands everyday--say what you will about Mike Gill, but leave the jock colony out of it...

Jessi P
Nov. 28, 2009, 03:19 PM
What I find most offensive about Judysbigredpony's "story" about a Gill horse is not what she has heard the guy does, or says what the guy and his vets do, but by calling riders "chimpanzees." Am I being too sensitive here, or was that comment just an unfunny joke.

These guys take their lives into their hands everyday--say what you will about Mike Gill, but leave the jock colony out of it...

No Barbara, you are not being too sensitive.

Judy - if you have a beef with Gill, then you have a beef with Gill. The jockey colony is a whole separate entity.

Jessi P
Nov. 28, 2009, 03:24 PM
In the thoroughbred world this is all common place. the judges, the racing office all officials and trainers and many owners think this is just the way it is. I hear stories all the time from coast to coast, about trainer and or owners deliberately hurting the horse they sold or was claimed off them etc... One guy took a 2by4 to a horses knees, another guy took a board filled it full of nails and put it in a stall of a horse he sold, the next day when the trainer picked up the horse she couldnt walk. wouldnt give money back either.
I watched a a "trainer" beat an owners 2 yr old filly trying to load her for over an hour. I finally just walked up and loaded her in 5 minutes with feed. as the owner him self stood there whip at the ready to beat her another hour.
I see them constantly mistreated, constantly, do bad deal after bad deal, selling horses that are lame and doped up, or cant ride and dangerous from so much mishandling and poor horsemanship. I know a guy who reported a guy for givning his horse a shot because the guy took his wife off the horse to ride, and the guards laughed about it as they told the guy, and the judges did nothing. the same guy sold a horse cheap that raced good, and after the horse raced good first start he went in his stall and filled her full of hormones.
Another trainer dumped some sort of acid in another trainer's horses mouths. you here scarry stories from coast to coast, safest way to race a horse is standardbreds. much more honest people way more integrity.

"Hearing Stories" is one thing - and it is NOT TO BE CONFUSED with having actual factual evidence or first hand knowledge.

judybigredpony
Nov. 28, 2009, 04:27 PM
No Barbara, you are not being too sensitive.

Judy - if you have a beef with Gill, then you have a beef with Gill. The jockey colony is a whole separate entity.

Yes and one of my BEST friends husband is a jockey.
IF you had read the text w/ your mind open you would see I meant it as a satyr and as we all know Chimpanzees are not the cuddly funny animals all the time. Also Monkey on the back can be a term meaning drug user not "Gill" but the poor horses he abuses. Some times the people reading this board do so with blinders on and look for any slight not even intended.
I was portraying Gill and what he does to his horses. Maybe he should have a taste of his own medicine. And throwing a monkey on his back would not be the ride a human jockey gives. Jeez some of you need a real life.
Having had real time more than once on his place, seeing all the horses 1st hand not tell tale or 3rd party I have no respect for him and even less for alot who chooseto accept his pay. But to even for a nano second think I would insult Jockeys who are some of the fittest and finest athletes is ludicrous Get a gripe ladies.

Jessi P
Nov. 28, 2009, 05:15 PM
feed him till he burst, the shove him in a starting gate, stick a chimpanze on his back and hot shot him down the lane



But to even for a nano second think I would insult Jockeys who are some of the fittest and finest athletes is ludicrous

Your grandiose words speak for themselves.

Of course grandiosity also means "Absurd exaggeration." ;):winkgrin::yes:

judybigredpony
Nov. 29, 2009, 06:40 AM
So now I am absurd.
I've dated Jockeys, been a Jockey agent w/ a license.
One of my BEST friends is married to a jockey.

Lets keep to blasting Gill and not each other before this thread gets de-railed like so many others away from the topic and more into scewering each other.

Alagirl
Nov. 29, 2009, 08:03 AM
Since we are talking Jocks, why are they taking rides on charges from a barn that have a high breakdown rate? I mean, when it blows it blows and being on a ton of careening animal in a herd, you are risking live and limb, livelyhood at best.

Does he pay better than others? Bonuses etc...

:confused::confused::confused:

lily04
Nov. 29, 2009, 03:37 PM
The jocks fee is determined by the race track. I think Penn is now $100 for a losing mount. Gill's trainers run several horses every day so if you are the go to rider you will probably end up riding several each day. Being a jock is a tough bussiness and most, unless they are the few who make it to the top can't afford to turn down mounts. You don't make any money sitting in the room.

Alagirl
Nov. 29, 2009, 08:28 PM
The jocks fee is determined by the race track. I think Penn is now $100 for a losing mount. Gill's trainers run several horses every day so if you are the go to rider you will probably end up riding several each day. Being a jock is a tough bussiness and most, unless they are the few who make it to the top can't afford to turn down mounts. You don't make any money sitting in the room.

That is understood, but you don't make any money laying in the hospital or a coffin either.

That's why I am asking, obviously the breakdowns are lame horses not catastrophic spills?

lily04
Dec. 13, 2009, 10:02 AM
Un-f#*&*ing believable. 11/12 MG/AA has horses in the 1st and 3rd at Penn. Groom takes horse over for the 1st, returns to receiving barn with horse after he runs and sticks hot, blowing horse in stall and then proceeds to the paddock with the horse running in the 3rd. A few concerned did look after the horse while Gill people were gone.

NMK
Dec. 15, 2009, 09:34 AM
Stewards on that one?

lily04
Dec. 16, 2009, 02:26 PM
[QUOTE=DickHertz;4559389]I think it's worth pointing out that the rash of breakdowns have stopped in the past few weeks. Does anyone know why Cole Norman is no longer with Gill at Elk Creek? QUOTE]
Coincidence?

judybigredpony
Dec. 16, 2009, 05:46 PM
Will put out a sniffer or 2;)

But Gill re-hired a long time Fired farrier to come back and do all of his work, farm and track.....so he is once again going thru the recycle bin.....

Dahoss
Dec. 18, 2009, 09:38 PM
Now Deshawn Parker is riding first call for Gill at Penn. Ahh, the allure of making $10k a week, I guess, far exceeds the downside to possibly laying in a casket or sitting in a wheelchair.


http://www.drf.com/drfNCWeeklyHorseDisplay.do?track=PEN&country=USA&raceDate=20091218&raceNo=5

AppJumpr08
Dec. 18, 2009, 09:50 PM
http://www.drf.com/drfNCWeeklyHorseDisplay.do?track=PEN&country=USA&raceDate=20091218&raceNo=5

:no::no::no:

KBEquine
Dec. 19, 2009, 07:46 AM
I think it's worth pointing out that the rash of breakdowns have stopped in the past few weeks. I would love to believe that someone at that operation decided to get a conscience, but there was some heat put on them by the powers that be which likely contributed to the madness stopping.

Now Deshawn Parker is riding first call for Gill at Penn. Ahh, the allure of making $10k a week, I guess, far exceeds the downside to possibly laying in a casket or sitting in a wheelchair. Otero getting fired from Gill was probably a blessing for him.

Results of last night's race -

"LION'S PRIDE went lame while dueling on the turn and the jockey fell off."

http://www.equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/PEN121809USA5.pdf

We watched it on TV - the weird part was not seeing any reason for Parker to fall off - probably means we just missed something. Still, it was weird.

retento
Dec. 19, 2009, 06:45 PM
Does anyone here remember a horse named Lusty Latin? I have no connection to the horse other than watching him in a 2002 Kentucky Derby prep race and found him striking enough to remember his name. He raced in War Emblem's 2002 Kentucky Derby, finished 15th, ran in some more stakes races then was claimed in 2003 by Mr. Gill. The horse didn't have any type of stellar career but he raced 50 times, gradually going down the levels. From his Equibase page it looks like Mr. Gill was the owner in 2008 when LL raced last and it looks like he finished his last race. I am simply curious to know how would one go about finding out if the horse is still alive and where he ended up?

tbracer65
Dec. 19, 2009, 07:22 PM
The comment was kind. The horse broke a leg and ran on for a 5/16 before being caught. Horse was euthanized. Gill had another one last night who returned lame. Hopefully, there won't be another rash of breakdowns.

As for Parker, poor move on his part. He could be a top 3 rider at Penn without riding for Gill. Many people won't ride him now because Gill has so many horses you never know if you can get him or not.

TVG announced Parker heading to New York with England as agent so hopefully he makes it safe at Penn till he heads to New York.

Barnfairy
Dec. 19, 2009, 10:29 PM
TVG announced Parker heading to New York...I actually heard the same thing about a week ago from someone he's ridden for. I don't know whether or not he's still going now but the plan did exist at some point. *shrugs*

NoBSshoer
Dec. 20, 2009, 05:25 PM
Hey Dickie,
You hear about Gill's driver and groom getting caught bringing snake venom into the backside with a horse a few weeks ago?

Although the trainer by law should have rightfully been responsible, PHRC allowed blame to be placed on driver and groom. Surprised you weren't shouting it from the rooftops around here:confused:

Sometimes I think you don't like that guy :lol:

Jessi P
Dec. 20, 2009, 07:06 PM
From my sources, which I believe to be extremely credible, the plan existed in Englander's mind, but not Parker's.

Yeah. In a nutshell.

NoBSshoer
Dec. 20, 2009, 08:58 PM
It wasn't snake venom, it was alleged to be Lasix and Needles, and since it was hearsay, I didn't put it on the board.
T'wasn't hearsay being as that Staties were there chasing people around backside and arrests were made. That's certainly newsworthy

Equinoxfox
Dec. 21, 2009, 02:34 PM
;)FIRST and foremost let me start by saying I am NOT a race fan by any means. Just a general horse lover.
SECOND I applaud and commend all comments from " Dickhertz, Jessie, and Laurierace" . I take everything they say and tell me very seriously and I wish there were more trainers like those guys out there.;)
THIRD I am in disgust and appaulded at what you are telling me is going on at that track. I can not believe that this kind of behavior or way of doing business is accepted and nothing is being done about it .
I wish there was something we could do to get people like this " Gill" guy shut down and out of business.
Hey how about we strap him down and cut his _ _ _ _ _ off without any painkillers. make him suffer like he is doing to those poor horses. What a IDIOT ..:mad:

tbracer65
Dec. 21, 2009, 02:57 PM
I actually heard the same thing about a week ago from someone he's ridden for. I don't know whether or not he's still going now but the plan did exist at some point. *shrugs*

Yeah...TVG announced it so I went & asked one of Parkers friends...who confirmed. Maybe plans changed -- who knows? Would be better if he did go to New York -- might be safer:no:

NoBSshoer
Dec. 21, 2009, 03:11 PM
;)FIRST and foremost let me start by saying I am NOT a race fan by any means. Just a general horse lover. Is nothing wrong with the sport of racing per se. Give it a chance you might take a liking to it. The horse industry is extremely fragmented. Different factions like to cast stones at each other. I guarantee you we could find things every bit as disgusting on the show circuit or anywhere else horses and people gather.


SECOND I applaud and commend all comments from " Dickhertz, Jessie, and Laurierace" . I take everything they say and tell me very seriously and I wish there were more trainers like those guys out there.;)
And what makes you believe there are not?


THIRD I am in disgust and appaulded at what you are telling me is going on at that track. I can not believe that this kind of behavior or way of doing business is accepted and nothing is being done about it .
I wish there was something we could do to get people like this " Gill" guy shut down and out of business.
Hey how about we strap him down and cut his _ _ _ _ _ off without any painkillers. make him suffer like he is doing to those poor horses. What a IDIOT ..:mad:
Try to bear in mind that it is not a complete snake pit. There are a few decent people left on the backside. Guys like that are a problem created by track management avarice. Unfortunately doing nothing about it is much like not exterminating bugs for the lame reason that you'll never get them all. If you don't make an effort you'll soon find yourself overwhelmed. This is what's happening there and at similar gyp tracks.

Their failure to enforce rules creates a problem not unlike Frank Serpico saw in the NYPD. He said "about 10% are totally bad. and about 10% are completely good. The other 80% really wish they could be good." This is pretty accurately what's going on in racing.

Jessi P
Dec. 21, 2009, 06:08 PM
The thing is, you hear the scintillating stuff as gossip (which is basically what this place COTH is, a place to share and exchange news, events, rumors and goings on). Nobody hears about the benign normal stuff because it's just not as newsworthy. Its sensationalism, plain and simple.

For example:

****GASP**** "DID YOU HEAR that..............???"

"Did you hear that...........The children's christmas party put on by the HBPA and the track chaplain this past Saturday was lovely, with lunch, cake and gifts for all even tho Santa got snowed in and Elf Liz doled out the pressies."

vs

"Did you hear that.......Michael Gill got busted again - this time for SNAKE VENOM!!"

Which is more newsworthy/ repeatable? The latter, of course. :)

foundationmare
Dec. 21, 2009, 06:12 PM
Jessi, you're so right! My grands were at that party!

Jessi P
Dec. 21, 2009, 06:17 PM
Oh really!! Make sure to PM me with names - there weren't too many people there because of the slick as heck roads, probably 35 ppl or less, so I am sure to have seen them. I love seeing the little ones all decked out for the holidays. :)

Here are my two with Elf Liz: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3218840&l=322f460047&id=607138338

EightBelles134
Dec. 21, 2009, 06:20 PM
i too am wondering whats been up with Lusty Latin..he's been a favorite of mine for awhile..has anyone heard anything about that horse?

NoBSshoer
Dec. 21, 2009, 08:26 PM
I'm not holding my breath that any tracks in PA will ban the guy any time soon. I think there's probably a better chance that his mortgage business - which has been scrutinized several times in the past - would go under which would preclude him from losing money with his hobby.

Is my understanding that he's been indicted for over 30 counts of mortgage fraud up in his home town of Boston. Of course with plenty of money to fight with, things like that can drag on for years but if the authorities can get a conviction that should get rid of him once and for all.

Barnfairy
Dec. 22, 2009, 12:02 PM
Is my understanding that he's been indicted for over 30 counts of mortgage fraud up in his home town of Boston. Of course with plenty of money to fight with, things like that can drag on for years but if the authorities can get a conviction that should get rid of him once and for all.No no, not Boston. He calls Windham NH home.

Loan firm charged with fraud settles in NH, MA (http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/trial-procedure-fines-penalties/11602699-1.html)

Equinoxfox
Dec. 22, 2009, 12:47 PM
I totally understand your points here but .......;)
Why can there not be more people like " DickHertz, Jessie, or Laurierace" that we know about. they care. they voice their concern. and also they love their horses. what more could you ask for ?
Now,,, with that being said .I am sure you guys will throw other names out there. But these are the only ones I know of and therefore these are the ones I RESPECT as honest, good Race Track Trainers.
My Hat is off to them ...;)

Little Hound
Dec. 22, 2009, 02:39 PM
I'm not holding my breath that any tracks in PA will ban the guy any time soon. I think there's probably a better chance that his mortgage business - which has been scrutinized several times in the past - would go under which would preclude him from losing money with his hobby.

As I said before, I do not have a problem with the people who are like Gill - those that claim and own a ton of horses - my issue is with the "win at all cost" mentality associated with it and the shear lack of regard for the lives, human and equine, placed at risk so that Gill can add another win to his tally.

What I do know is the PA Commission wants Gill out, but have been told to back off by the suits in Harrisburg which means they either don't want to get sued or there is much bigger things a brewin...

What suits in Harrisburg ... the politicians? I was hoping and praying that the Commission was working on banning Gill.

brightskyfarm
Dec. 22, 2009, 02:40 PM
Now Dick............ you know things operate to a different drummer at Penn..... as all sorts of *nasties* occur that no one can explain..and people look the other way.
what one person can do....another is busted for doing the exact same;
and many get away with doing many *no-goods* with officicals looking the other way, or blatantly and openly ignorning any punishments due.
..... and some get punished on simple hearsay from those who have the power to just offer hearsay.

fact fact.

Jessi P
Dec. 22, 2009, 04:46 PM
Deshawn used to ride for Dale Baird - who operated by the numbers at MNR. If he could ride first call for Dale he can take care of himself with Gill.

D is supposed to be riding here at Mnr this weekend, They gave me a call for my horse here Sunday but I scratched the horse (San Mark K) so I cant guarantee if he is riding here this weekend.

NoBSshoer
Dec. 22, 2009, 04:50 PM
No no, not Boston. He calls Windham NH home.

Loan firm charged with fraud settles in NH, MA (http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/trial-procedure-fines-penalties/11602699-1.html)
Knew he was from that region. I'll stand corrected on the home town;)

tbracer65
Dec. 23, 2009, 01:56 PM
Dale tapped horses. Gill's outfit taps and blocks. Big difference. Although the one thing they do have in common is they rank 1-2 in terms of the number of horses sent to have a captive bolt put through their head. The other thing they have in common is that neither is/was a horseman. Dale was a better businessman than Gill though and was able to make a living without using money earned from fraudulent loans.

I might not be a 100% positive...but didn't Dale get a bad test a few years ago for the blocking agent????

...now that I think about it -- I'm almost 100% positive he did ---& he got a bunch of days for it too, that were reduced. Might have been about 5 or 6 yrs. ago now, though...

Jessi P
Dec. 23, 2009, 08:25 PM
Dale tapped and blocked.

bighoss
Dec. 24, 2009, 08:44 PM
Lusty is a riding horse in NH

retento
Dec. 25, 2009, 01:17 PM
Great! Thanks for the update on Lusty Latin

WinterTriangle
Dec. 25, 2009, 03:26 PM
not unlike Frank Serpico saw in the NYPD. He said "about 10% are totally bad. and about 10% are completely good. The other 80% really wish they could be good." This is pretty accurately what's going on in racing.

I think that's a good analogy. Except I think the % of totally good is way higher than 10%. :)

It's what makes that totally bad 10% stand out even more. As has been mentioned, it's the sensationalistic stuff that gets attention, and they provide most of it. When a mere 10% accounts for almost 100% of the "black eye" racing gets, it seems it should be rather motivating to all, to see they are stamped out.

In essence, their existence is 100% negative, there are no positives, from any viewpoint or perspective.

A few tweaks here and there, within the industry, make it a priority, I see them going away. Not a real hard undertaking, is it?

I guess there's something about the dynamic that I'm not pinpointing or not seeing......if such a small % can't be eradicated? Even the simplest set of rules and consequences would seem adequate......so, how many must "look the other way" for it to continue? Must be a huge number then, or a small number, with a lot of power?

NoBSshoer
Dec. 26, 2009, 10:06 AM
I think that's a good analogy. Except I think the % of totally good is way higher than 10%. :)

It's what makes that totally bad 10% stand out even more. As has been mentioned, it's the sensationalistic stuff that gets attention, and they provide most of it. When a mere 10% accounts for almost 100% of the "black eye" racing gets, it seems it should be rather motivating to all, to see they are stamped out.

In essence, their existence is 100% negative, there are no positives, from any viewpoint or perspective.

A few tweaks here and there, within the industry, make it a priority, I see them going away. Not a real hard undertaking, is it?

I guess there's something about the dynamic that I'm not pinpointing or not seeing......if such a small % can't be eradicated? Even the simplest set of rules and consequences would seem adequate......so, how many must "look the other way" for it to continue? Must be a huge number then, or a small number, with a lot of power?
Well.....where do we begin?
How does a decent or ethical trainer work for the likes of Mr Gill? Or people of his ilk? Most racehorse owners are the farthest thing from horsemen you'll ever meet. Majority if they visit the backside at all need to ask which horse is theirs.

What they do want more than anything though is to win. They want a winners circle picture to put in their office and really don't care how they get it. The guys who have the best medicine do the most winning and are always about three steps ahead of the testing. Thus, they get the most owners.

Add to this a track management who has races to fill. If you're a trainer with horses on the grounds they need to be running. As much as possible. If you got a horse that needs a rest they'll very strongly suggest you do what you gotta do to get the beast running sooner than you should or lose your stalls. Who then gets the stalls they take from the ethical trainer? You got it the one who injects, blocks, etc etc.

As these outfits grow bigger and bigger they gain more muscle and not only aren't messed with by track management but more often than not get to the point of having stewards, secretaries, stall men etc in their pockets.

They then become leading trainers and pretty much own and operate a track. Especially a small time gyp track. Owners all want their horses in their barns and the cycle perpetuates.

I believe major strides could be taken to clean up racing by knocking these big outfits down to size. Years ago it was rare for an outfit to have more than 20 or so horses in their barn. This business of running a stable like Corporate America needs to end and it can very easily by doing as follows: Trainer saddles the horse That's it. Period. No assistants. No authorized agents of. No flunkies of any kind. The trainer of record must show up in person to saddle any and every horse they have entered. No substitutions any time for any reason ever.

If this was done no trainer would take on any more than they could personally handle. It would keep stables smaller and give other trainers a fighting chance.

Will this ever happen? No. Why not? Because it is owners that finance and bankroll the industry. Owners like it the way it is. Mr Gill is not unique. There is plenty of owner avarice to go around.

Laurierace
Jan. 13, 2010, 09:19 PM
Zidane broke down in the 4th race. The jockey Dana Whitney was airlifted to the hospital, condition unknown at this point. Four other horses were affected. Zidane was claimed.

My mistake, this was not a Gill horse just a Gill trainer. Same thing if you ask me but wanted to clarify anyway.

Buck Off
Jan. 15, 2010, 06:14 PM
Cole Norman is actually a very good trainer, a decent human being who had some trouble in his past (who hasn't?) and a mentor for those such as Tim Ice, (Summer Bird) in his own right. Until you know the man, pehaps you should get your facts straight. Maybe yes, a "convicted felon", as you say but he has paid his dues and his "felony conviction" has absolutely nothing to do with his training or Thoroughbred race horses.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 21, 2010, 07:10 PM
Annnd he's done it again :sigh:

Any word on how Melodeeman and his Jockey are after their fall in race 2 tonight?

foundationmare
Jan. 21, 2010, 08:09 PM
I don't know the fate of the horse, only what the chart said. Doesn't sound good. Do you think Mr. Gill would demonstrate benevolence and try to save the horse, providing the breakdown wasn't catastrophic? Just wondering.

DD and SIL had one in there and I've taken to advising her to tell the jock to keep an eye out for the Gill horses so they don't get caught in a pile-up. Tongue firmly implanted in cheek, of course, for good reason.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 21, 2010, 08:29 PM
My opinion of Mike Gill isn't high enough to think that he would try to lay a 10 year old gelding up after it broke down in a cheap claiming race... but I could be wrong.
Melodeeman won over $258k... granted, not all for Gill, but it just makes me sad that an old campaigner like him may not get the retirement he so rightly earned.

foundationmare
Jan. 21, 2010, 08:35 PM
Ouch! Poor dude: fine thanks that is!

AppJumpr08
Jan. 22, 2010, 12:12 PM
:sigh: I was afraid of that.
How sad.

Alagirl
Jan. 22, 2010, 12:52 PM
My opinion of Mike Gill isn't high enough to think that he would try to lay a 10 year old gelding up after it broke down in a cheap claiming race... but I could be wrong.
Melodeeman won over $258k... granted, not all for Gill, but it just makes me sad that an old campaigner like him may not get the retirement he so rightly earned.


or at least a dignified end...

judybigredpony
Jan. 22, 2010, 08:31 PM
I would make book the horse goes out on the weekly one way Truck........

AppJumpr08
Jan. 22, 2010, 09:36 PM
I would make book the horse goes out on the weekly one way Truck........

If he's not dead already, I'm sure you're probably right.

Laurierace
Jan. 22, 2010, 11:03 PM
No as big of an asshat as he may be, that does not happen anymore. Too many people were successfully prosecuted for violating pennsylvania's fit for sale law.

Little Hound
Jan. 23, 2010, 09:28 AM
This is what jockey David Cora posted on his Facebook page this morning:

"I hope the accident at penn stop, so tired to see gill horses break down."

Little Hound
Jan. 23, 2010, 10:56 AM
In response to Cora's post, trainer Elisha Rathman wrote that 87 Gill horses broke down last year. Don't know where she got that number, but if true, that is absolutely shameful.

Dick, having jockeys come together to refuse to ride Gill horses would be a good idea, however there's always one or two who need the money so badly that they'll hop aboard no matter what.

2boys
Jan. 23, 2010, 11:13 AM
This thread makes me increasingly grateful that I found a SOUND Gill horse to adopt when I did. :no:

AppJumpr08
Jan. 23, 2010, 11:42 AM
In response to Cora's post, trainer Elisha Rathman wrote that 87 Gill horses broke down last year. Don't know where she got that number, but if true, that is absolutely shameful.

Dick, having jockeys come together to refuse to ride Gill horses would be a good idea, however there's always one or two who need the money so badly that they'll hop aboard no matter what.


It's a high number, but if you consider the number of horses the man has spread all over and his disregard for their health and comfort... 87 doesn't seem out of the question :sigh:

foundationmare
Jan. 23, 2010, 03:00 PM
I've wondered, too, why, at this juncture of time with Gill horses breaking down on a regular and predictable basis, jocks don't boycott. I was just speaking about this very thing with my DD who had a horse in the same race the other night. In fact, her horse was right next to the one who snapped its leg.

It's no longer a matter of IF something catastrophic is going to happen (although it is certainly catastrophic for the horse each and every time), but WHEN. Furthermore, I think that, if management has not already been sufficiently mortified by the sheer number of breakdowns out of that barn, it's encumbent on the horsemen to demand that changes are made, and soon.

Mr. Gill's decided lack of concern (and, boy is that putting it mildly) does not affect just one horse and/or one rider: his nerved/blocked horses jeopardize EVERY horse and EVERY rider in the race. What jock would want to place their horse anywhere near Gill's horse? It may even affect the way a race is run and it's eventual outcome. Doesn't seem implausible to me.

2boys
Jan. 23, 2010, 06:45 PM
Wasn't he "blackballed" before by others in the industry years ago? I thought I read once, that people were not allowing him into their barns and things like that at one time. Maybe that will end up happening again.

lily04
Jan. 23, 2010, 07:02 PM
One of his grooms said he has about 60 horses at Elk Creek Ranch right now down from over 100 a couple of months ago. Hopfully he's getting out again. I wonder where the 40 horses have gone.

Alagirl
Jan. 23, 2010, 07:05 PM
One of his grooms said he has about 60 horses at Elk Creek Ranch right now down from over 100 a couple of months ago. Hopfully he's getting out again. I wonder where the 40 horses have gone.


really? :no:

(I got 2 ideas...or 40 suckers are in for heartbreak)

Dahoss
Jan. 23, 2010, 10:01 PM
Gill could have been hugely successful as an owner doing what he does, but he chose to go about doing it all the wrong way. First of all, you don't go hiring clueless unethical idiots for trainers if you want to succeed. There guys only know one way to win races, which eventually leads to unhappy, lame horses and breakdowns. Obviously he hires guys who's ethics are the same as his own, because they have to be willing to resort to this type of abuse.

You do good by the horse and they'll do good right back.

Little Hound
Jan. 24, 2010, 09:45 AM
Gill actually got a few votes from Eclipse voters as "owner of the year" for 2009. Guess they don't know much about how he operates.

Startin' Small Racing
Jan. 24, 2010, 11:22 AM
Any eclipse voter that voted for Gill should be stripped of their right to vote forever.
Reportedly, Melodeeman had screws in his legs. You can rest assured that he went into the race sore and was almost certainly injected a number of times just to keep getting him back to the races. Gill's trainers are known for injecting and medicating their own horses. Adamo definitely injects a lot of the Gill horses himself on the farm.
Gill is a cancer to this industry. The fact alone that he has put 6 jockeys in the hospital over the past 6-12 months and has killed a huge number of horses in the process and is still able to run at ANY track is mind boggling. In an industry that already struggles to maintain any level of respect or integrity, a person with his history should have been barred long ago to try to help save the reputation of horse racing. Without Gill racing the past 2 years, a tremendous amount of negative publicity would have certainly been eliminated.
Hopefully last night was the beginning of the end when the riders refused to ride at Penn until Gill's horse was scratched after the horse "Laughing Moon" collapsed galloping out and hurt another rider.
More people need to jump on board and support the horsepeople, jockeys and the integrity of the sport and boycott until Gill and all his connections are forced out of racing. If Florida, Delaware and Philadelphia along with probably a number of other tracks don't want him stabling at their locations AND his trainer Delahoussaye is apparently barred in a number of states than why would any track want him racing at theirs.
Gill hires idiots to train for him because he gets them dirt cheap and they will do whatever he tells them to do. They all need to go!! Riders need to stop riding for him and/or in any race he is in. Tracks need to stop giving him stalls and/or accepting his entries.
True that supposedly his farm is down to about 80 horses from 140. Very curious where all the horses have gone??? Someone really needs to come clean and report on this. Over the last year alone, aside from this decrease of about 60 horses, a great number of horses have simply disappeared. In a time where it is very difficult to give horses away and find homes for them, it is near impossible that this outfit found good homes for probably about 100 horses over this time period.
Delaw

Alagirl
Jan. 24, 2010, 12:05 PM
Gill actually got a few votes from Eclipse voters as "owner of the year" for 2009. Guess they don't know much about how he operates.

I am far from believing in innocence.

I would bet on ignorance or connection.

actcasual
Jan. 24, 2010, 12:41 PM
Hopefully last night was the beginning of the end when the riders refused to ride at Penn until Gill's horse was scratched after the horse "Laughing Moon" collapsed galloping out and hurt another rider.


What happened? The jocks really took a stand???

lizajane09
Jan. 24, 2010, 12:47 PM
This may have already been said since I didn't pore through all 8 pages, but who the hell is the vet that Gill uses? To get all of his drugs from and inject his horses (but not do pre-race checks of course...)?

foundationmare
Jan. 24, 2010, 02:32 PM
I composed a post last night but decided not to post it because it sounded a bit strident. Reading about last night's events had me reconsider, albeit toned down.

Penn management has not taken a proactive role, so let them be forced to take a REACTIVE role when the horsemen....jockeys, trainers, owners, grooms, exercise riders, hotwalkers, etc.....take a stance that is, shall we say, non-welcoming to Gill and the mindless buffoons who do his dirty work for him. I see no reason for Gill and his cronies to be anything but persona non grata at any and all racetracks in the country. Anyone who does business with him must know that his currency is bloodmoney and the racing community needs to stand up for what is right and crush what is wrong.

If the honest horsemen can't stay in business because they don't and won't resort to the shenanigans of cheaters, horseracing will truly be an enterprise for all the crooks that nobody had the guts to shut down when there was ample and mounting evidence against them.

As angry as I am that cheaters are too-often allowed to continue business as usual with measly fines and wrist slaps, I'm angrier and sadder that the horses are treated so inhumanely. Maybe I'm too "soft" to be involved in this business, but I feel horrible when horses break down. It is unconscionable that any trainer sends a horse to the paddock knowing full well that the horse is compromised. Maybe the horse will come out of the race okay, but, eventually, asked to run on wrecked legs, they will go and become just one more used-up TB that took one for the team. It's nothing less than disgraceful. And heartbreaking.

Startin' Small Racing
Jan. 24, 2010, 03:43 PM
Daryl Delahoussaye fired today!!!!
Proactive actions are starting to take place but hopefully Mike Gill doesn't think that firing his trainer will clear his name. Everyone knows that he is the true source of the actions his trainers take. They are doing what he makes them do. Hopefully Daryl does not get stalls at Penn to try to build a stable of his own as that would only expand the source of cheating, breakdowns and horrid horsemanship beyond just Mike Gill's barn. We don't need yet another barn of this nature starting up. Daryl apparently is controlling the stable of owner Edward Longo, currently listing trainer Jay Budrewicz in the program. This outfit won a couple races this past week and Daryl was also in the winner's circle. I will reiterate Daryl is a problem... barred in other states so why does Penn allow him to operate?
Hopefully Penn is starting to clean up... it would move along so much quicker if Adamo, Gill and Delahoussaye are eliminated from racing!!!

I don't understand why the riders at Philly are not taking the same stand to support their fellow riders at Penn. Riders like Abel Mariano and Justin Shepherd riding today for Adamo/Gill need to think about what these connections have done to their fellow riders and follow the lead of the Penn jocks.

Jessi P
Jan. 24, 2010, 05:45 PM
I see that DD entered a couple Michael Gill horses on Saturday for the 28th, Tin Soldier, at Penn - as well as Nor'easterner - thought he was fired?

lily04
Jan. 24, 2010, 06:09 PM
Entries taken on 23rd fired on 24th

Dahoss
Jan. 24, 2010, 06:17 PM
Entries taken on 23rd fired on 24th

Ok what Lily said. :D

AppJumpr08
Jan. 24, 2010, 06:22 PM
Doesn't matter, those horses will be scratched on Tuesday AM. Jocks simply will not ride when a Mike Gill owned horse is in the race and they AIN'T budging !

Good for them!

foundationmare
Jan. 24, 2010, 06:37 PM
Ditto: good for them! Anybody know how to lend support to the jock colony? Anybody know any agents we can converse with? Their livelihood is jeopardized as well. An injured/dead jock isn't making any for them. Breaking it down to brass tacks, of course....

foundationmare
Jan. 24, 2010, 07:05 PM
I wrote an e-mail to management. I'll try to cut/paste it here. I would hope others will do the same. Of course Penn management won't give a crap about the welfare of horses, but perhaps nasty publicity?

Dear Mr. Lipkin,

I am hoping that you are paying heed to the nasty canker on your backside: that would be the so-called racing stable associated with Michael Gill and his lot of butchers who support his "win at any cost" mentality. That Penn National has not taken a proactive stance against Mr. Gill and his cronies is distressing to many of us who champion Thoroughbred horse racing. If you are not already aware of the seedy practices he and his ilk employ to eke every last dime out of doomed horses, you should make it your business to know what is going on with his horses. There are multiple reasons why his horses, and horses coming out of the barns of his "trainers", break down on a regular basis. That Penn management has chosen to look the other way and allow his sham of a racing operation continue to taint the Penn National racing community is disgraceful. Other than the cheaters and butchers who hope to get stalls on your backside and win your favor, your lack of response to the pathetic deaths of so many horses exposes management for the greedy and heartless bunch you appear to be.

I support the jockeys who refuse to ride races with a Gill entry. As a horseman, I would not to run my horses in a race with a Gill entry for fear that his nerved/blocked wreck of a TB would break down and take me out as well. In case you think that the racing community at large is immune to the abomination that is Michael Gill, rest assured that the majority of us are fed up and demanding that track management sprout some brass ones and exile Mr. Gill from your racetrack.

You have an opportunity to appear that you actually care about horses (okay, that's far-fetched, I know, it's all about the bottom line after all, as you have amply demonstrated) and avoid the unpleasant scrutiny that is about to come your way.

Lest you think that I'm a PITA fanatic or someone who would choose to outlaw racing altogether, I'm not. I am a TB owner and breeder and I love TB racing in its purest form. It is the people like me who will champion TB racing and endeavor to sustain it's noble history. Michael Gill and his ilk have no part in that. They are not noble and they certainly don't have the well-being of horses at heart. It's way past time for you to make him and his partners in CRIME persona non grata.

Very truly yours,

Margie Linn

Laurierace
Jan. 24, 2010, 07:10 PM
There was a point in time where I seriously thought about approaching that asshat and asking for the job. I wanted to convince him that there was a right way to do things and a wrong way and the wrong way not only took money out of his pocket by killing horses that therefore could never make him any money in the future but also made him look like a gigantic prick. I have contacts with countless rescue organizations. I would convince him to stop on them or lay them up before it was too late. And to rehome his retirees with reputable agencies. Make sure the whole world knew of his total transformation. I then decided he was more than a little set in his ways and most likely one of us was not making it out of there alive. Too hard to take care of my horses from a jail cell so I just had to hope he sees the light through some other means.

mroades
Jan. 24, 2010, 07:16 PM
I wrote an e-mail to management. I'll try to cut/paste it here. I would hope others will do the same. Of course Penn management won't give a crap about the welfare of horses, but perhaps nasty publicity?

Dear Mr. Lipkin,

I am hoping that you are paying heed to the nasty canker on your backside: that would be the so-called racing stable associated with Michael Gill and his lot of butchers who support his "win at any cost" mentality. That Penn National has not taken a proactive stance against Mr. Gill and his cronies is distressing to many of us who champion Thoroughbred horse racing. If you are not already aware of the seedy practices he and his ilk employ to eke every last dime out of doomed horses, you should make it your business to know what is going on with his horses. There are multiple reasons why his horses, and horses coming out of the barns of his "trainers", break down on a regular basis. That Penn management has chosen to look the other way and allow his sham of a racing operation continue to taint the Penn National racing community is disgraceful. Other than the cheaters and butchers who hope to get stalls on your backside and win your favor, your lack of response to the pathetic deaths of so many horses exposes management for the greedy and heartless bunch you appear to be.

I support the jockeys who refuse to ride races with a Gill entry. As a horseman, I would not to run my horses in a race with a Gill entry for fear that his nerved/blocked wreck of a TB would break down and take me out as well. In case you think that the racing community at large is immune to the abomination that is Michael Gill, rest assured that the majority of us are fed up and demanding that track management sprout some brass ones and exile Mr. Gill from your racetrack.

You have an opportunity to appear that you actually care about horses (okay, that's far-fetched, I know, it's all about the bottom line after all, as you have amply demonstrated) and avoid the unpleasant scrutiny that is about to come your way.

Lest you think that I'm a PITA fanatic or someone who would choose to outlaw racing altogether, I'm not. I am a TB owner and breeder and I love TB racing in its purest form. It is the people like me who will champion TB racing and endeavor to sustain it's noble history. Michael Gill and his ilk have no part in that. They are not noble and they certainly don't have the well-being of horses at heart. It's way past time for you to make him and his partners in CRIME persona non grata.

Very truly yours,

Margie Linn

Its PETA not Pita...NOT being unsupportive...just pointing out a typo that they may use against you.

foundationmare
Jan. 24, 2010, 07:24 PM
Holy crap: you're right! Looked right past it, but I guess I'm a PITA as well!

foundationmare
Jan. 24, 2010, 07:25 PM
On second glance, it works well that way.

foundationmare
Jan. 24, 2010, 07:34 PM
Well, he was the top spot in their contact info. I cc'd a copy to the GM. But Mr. Lipkin IS a PR person and should be concerned about...their PR.

Little Hound
Jan. 24, 2010, 08:29 PM
Here is Chris McErlean's e-mail address. He might be the best person to contact:

Christopher.McErlean@pngaming.com

At the very least he should acknowledge your e-mail.

No new Facebook posts from David Cora, but trainer Brandon Kulp posted this today:

yet another one tonight, you guys need to refuse to ride in any race he is in, you have the power to change this! when is it going to stop? when someone gets killed?!?!?!

foundationmare
Jan. 24, 2010, 08:30 PM
Yeah, Dick, I'm pretty sure you're right, as is the case with every track that has a racino.

foundationmare
Jan. 24, 2010, 08:36 PM
Thanks Little Hound. Done. Certainly I'll let you all know if I get a response (don't hold your breath). Should I get a bodyguard?

Little Hound
Jan. 24, 2010, 09:09 PM
New Facebook post by David Cora as of 9 p.m. tonight:

Well last Saturday one more mike gill horse broke down after the wire with the rider Frazier . Luckily his ok, thanks god

Anybody here on Facebook? If you "friend" David Cora you'll be able to see these posts are authentic, I don't want anybody here thinking I'm making them up.

Little Hound
Jan. 24, 2010, 09:27 PM
Cora update: He has now removed all his Facebook posts, instead stating that "i did it know that many people read facebook,i have to think first before i write something here,god bless everybody

Maybe his agent or someone at Penn is advising him not to post on this subject anymore.

Little Hound
Jan. 24, 2010, 09:41 PM
Yes, I was disappointed to see them removed, too. Oh well, at least we got a glimpse into what some of the jockeys are thinking.

foundationmare
Jan. 24, 2010, 09:52 PM
Got a reply already from Christopher McErlean! Responded right back. I am deeply sorry that David Cora has retreated from his honest assessment of the situation. Someone has compelled him to do so.

Little Hound
Jan. 24, 2010, 09:54 PM
That is great, I had a feeling McErlean would respond quickly. And I'm sorry Cora decided to stop posting on Facebook, too.

foundationmare
Jan. 24, 2010, 10:14 PM
It went something like this:

Ms. Linn,

I tend to rely on facts. The clear fact on the necropsies is that in almost every case, Gill horse or not, there is a pre-existing condition with the horse. In many cases that pre-existing condition is not the actual cause of the breakdown, but it was there, potentially waiting to happen.

The fact is, six trainers in 2009 accounted for 43% of the breakdowns at Penn National. Those six were the only ones with more than 1 breakdown. Mr. Gill's trainers (Adamo and Delahoussaye) had 3 and 4 respectively. They raced a total of 820 times during the year I believe. There was actually one other trainer with more total breakdowns, with about 600 starts, a breakdown rate exactly the same as the gill trainers. The slipperly slope is if the measurement or action taken is going to be on when this occurs, as it may also involve others who people feel are not an issue.

I can tell you that we are well aware of the current issue and again, I cannot comment on what is being done as it will affect others as well. I will assue you that we are not blind to the issue nor to addressing the matter with any trainer or owner who we feel is not acting in the best interest of their horses.

From: Margie Linn [mailto:foundationmare@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sun 1/24/2010 9:47 PM
To: Christopher McErlean
Subject: Re: Michael Gill

Dear Mr. McErlean,

Thank you for your prompt response to my e-mail. I appreciate that Penn has the appropriate mechanisms in place to in-theory 1) minimize breakdowns during racing and 2) ascertain the factors that lead to breakdowns, particularly fatal ones. I would expect that particular attention will be paid to the inordinate number of breakdowns coming from the barns associated with Michael Gill.

With all due respect, what are your committees gleaning from their reviews and necropsies? More importantly, what remedies are being put in place to decrease the numerous, predictable breakdowns from the Gill connections? With all of the purported fixes you cite in place, why are so many horses dying so hideously?

Furthermore, blocked and/or nerved horses won't jog unsound for the State vet in the morning prior to racing. They will, however, run their hearts out, oblivious to impending catastrophic injury, and snap a leg in a heartbeat and KEEP ON RUNNING! That's always a barrel of fun for the horsemen who care about the horses and, of course, the public who continue to retreat from horseracing.

What management at Penn and other racetracks around the country need to understand is that butchers like Michael Gill not only sully the sport of TB racing in a vulnerable time, but also cast a negative light on the people who aid and abet his way of "doing business". Ultimately, the onus of his inhumane, cheating practices rests on the people who let him get away with it.

Very truly yours,

Margie Linn


To: Margie Linn <foundationmare@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sun, January 24, 2010 9:12:27 PM M
Subject: RE: Michael Gill

Ms. Linn,

I appreciate your comments and understand your concerns.

While I cannont comment as to actions being taken I can tell you the following are in place at Penn National:

- unlike many states we have both a state vet and a vet that works for the track that does pre-race inspections
- Penn National has a breakdown review committee that reviews every breakdown and interviews trainers and vets associated with such horses
- every breakdown at Penn National has a necropsy (an autopsy) done by the Dept of Ag (we are one of the few tracks that has this done - the only one in PA as a matter of fact)
- Penn National has one of the most extensive collection of breakdown statistics of any track in the country, going back 15 years, on all matters relating to breakdowns on our track

I can tell you that any breakdown is an issue and we know there are a multitude of potential factors that can come into play. We are very cognizant of the public perception of this issue and that other trainers potentially fall into similar categories.

From: Margie Linn [mailto:foundationmare@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sun 1/24/2010 8:33 PM
To: Christopher McErlean
Subject: Fw: Michael Gill

Dear Mr. McErlean,

I am forwarding this message to you with the hope and expectation that someone will respond with a solid plan for positive change at Penn National, currently the armpit of TB racing.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Margie Linn <foundationmare@yahoo.com>
To: Fred.Lipkin@pngaming.com
Cc: Frank <Quigley@pngaming.com>
Sent: Sun, January 24, 2010 7:01:56 PM
Subject: Michael Gill

Dear Mr. Lipkin,

I am hoping that you are paying heed to the nasty canker on your backside: that would be the so-called racing stable associated with Michael Gill and his lot of butchers who support his "win at any cost" mentality. That Penn National has not taken a proactive stance against Mr. Gill and his cronies is distressing to many of us who champion Thoroughbred horse racing. If you are not already aware of the seedy practices he and his ilk employ to eke every last dime out of doomed horses, you should make it your business to know what is going on with his horses. There are multiple reasons why his horses, and horses coming out of the barns of his "trainers", break down on a regular basis. That Penn management has chosen to look the other way and allow his sham of a racing operation continue to taint the Penn National racing community is disgraceful. Other than the cheaters and butchers who hope to get stalls on your backside and win your favor, your lack of response to the pathetic deaths of so many horses exposes management for the greedy and heartless bunch you appear to be.

I support the jockeys who refuse to ride races with a Gill entry. As a horseman, I would not to run my horses in a race with a Gill entry for fear that his nerved/blocked wreck of a TB would break down and take me out as well. In case you think that the racing community at large is immune to the abomination that is Michael Gill, rest assured that the majority of us are fed up and demanding that track management sprout some brass ones and exile Mr. Gill from your racetrack.

You have an opportunity to appear that you actually care about horses (okay, that's far-fetched, I know, it's all about the bottom line after all, as you have amply demonstrated) and avoid the unpleasant scrutiny that is about to come your way.

Lest you think that I'm a PITA fanatic or someone who would choose to outlaw racing altogether, I'm not. I am a TB owner and breeder and I love TB racing in its purest form. It is the people like me who will champion TB racing and endeavor to sustain it's noble history. Michael Gill and his ilk have no part in that. They are not noble and they certainly don't have the well-being of horses at heart. It's way past time for you to make him and his partners in CRIME persona non grata.

Very truly yours,

Margie Linn

foundationmare
Jan. 24, 2010, 10:26 PM
You've seen the three monkeys, right? Hear not, see not, speak not. These guys are steeled to withstand the onslaught and I doubt anything will change. Is it a coincidence that one of my favorite movies is Mister Smith Goes to Washington?

Alagirl
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:34 AM
Another dumb question: What's the word among the gambling crowds about Gill?

I see it's a bit different than the olden days where you had to be at the track to place your bets, but they are usually pretty well informed. I can't imagine they like races that can be turned upside down from paper form because some A$$hat sends in doctored up horses!

Little Hound
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:12 AM
Hooray! Ray Paulick has written about Mike Gill today:

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/gill-center-of-controversy-again/

judybigredpony
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:46 AM
True that supposedly his farm is down to about 80 horses from 140. Very curious where all the horses have gone??? Someone really needs to come clean and report on this. Over the last year alone, aside from this decrease of about 60 horses, a great number of horses have simply disappeared. In a time where it is very difficult to give horses away and find homes for them, it is near impossible that this outfit found good homes for probably about 100 horses over this time period.
Delaw

As reported before those horses get a 1 way trip w/ no stop in between. He is paid a flat rate $100. and how ever many fit on the rig go. He owns them he can sell them to whom ever he chooses, once on the truck they can be transported where ever the "new" owner chooses. We can't stop that cycle he is legal on this.

Elk Creek Ranch Main Barn holds about 120 horses. There is a track w/ chute and gait as well. Very limited to no paddock T/O for in training horses and an Equisizer maybe 2?? There maybe some smaller barns on premises w/ younger unbroke stock. But he does not keep retire or re-home if possible. In past years he did sent over flow lay-ups to some out lying farms. When he went bust those horses just got stranded there.

They are not known for inviting outsiders to stroll thru and seriously it is not for the bleeding hearts. Most of what he is willing to part w/ unfortunately just aren't going to be re-hab material. This is someone who DOES squeeze every single ounce out a horse before he is done w/ it. And by done I mean they no longer can or will perform even when blocked or injected to the Gill's (no pun). Why do you think they snap legs or fall down on the track. Stopping one race away is just to far gone.
I bet if he came full stop today and every horses in his ownership was evaluated one on one a very low single digit precentage would be worthy of sports horse career. Once off all their meds you will be looking at horses in chronic pain w/ joints past the point of no return.

foundationmare
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:53 AM
Thanks for posting that Little Hound. Gill's arrogance and defiant FU attitude to the racing world in general is appalling. Maybe he's running out of time and "friends".

Laurierace
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:56 AM
Money can always buy you new friends unfortunately.

judybigredpony
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:01 AM
This may have already been said since I didn't pore through all 8 pages, but who the hell is the vet that Gill uses? To get all of his drugs from and inject his horses (but not do pre-race checks of course...)?

Gill can and does buy his own product. It is possbile to legally obtain the material he requires since they are not restricted classified products.

Gill has been thru a Yellow Page of vets..he fires at will or bans a vet from a practice until he has been thru them all.
He PAYS WELL and most lager practices will look the other way since injecting all those joints is very lucritive for them.

I belive he is down to smaller practices 1-2 vet firms since he cut loose his last big outfit from FLA.

This is a man who calls ALL the shots, is very hands on even if from a distance and is very parinoid. Seriously Video survallence thru out his barn that he can off site access. Big Bro is watching.........

Alagirl
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:04 AM
I wonder if those videos could be hacked....

just saying...

frugalannie
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:06 AM
I follow the racing forum because I love the sport and my OTTBs. Just wanted to say that you guys rock.

Your committment to the horses and to the sport is unwavering. Your passion for them is leading to action (Foundationmare, your letters to track management are a stellar example). And kudos to the jocks for taking a stand.

As someone who had to take waaaay too many statistics courses, I find the breakdown numbers cited by track management worthless, and I'm appalled that they only included what happens between the start and the finish line. Dick Hertz, you're doing a much better job than they are. But do you have similar numbers for other stables that can be used as controls? Please note: I am in full support of your conclusions. I'm just suggesting making your case even stronger.

OK, back to eventing land. But I'm cheering you all on as are my 4 OTTBs.

soccermom711
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:17 AM
We were there Saturday night - sitting in the dining room overlooking the finish line. The reaction from the crowd was beyond typical. Everywhere we went that night, people were talking about Michael Gill. I looked for track management myself, to demand answers as to when they would finally take a stand, and they were nowhere to be found. My hope is that there is now finally enough momentum building to get this guy out of racing altogether. I could not have been more impressed and proud of the jockey's that took a stand Saturday night as well as the trainer that went into the jockey room and urged them to do so. That trainer did so at his own risk. There are alot of good trainers at PENN - but they cannot take a stand by themselves - not every trainer who ships in or needs money will stand fast with them. Until PENN management does the right thing, unfortunately the burden to take a stand will fall on the jockeys.

It was also my understanding that autopsies were no longer being done due to a shortage of funds in the racing commission. Now they say they are being done?

PENN needs to stop making excuses. Gill's break down rate is too high. His horses improve in condition too fast - he does not have miracle trainers or state of the art conditioning equipment. He's taking older, class horses that know how to win, making sure they feel no pain, and sending them out to win or die trying. When a horse typically "breaks down" during a race, the jockey will often feel it seconds before it happens. The horse itself will want to slow down or stop. Gill's horses never feel it coming, and as a result, neither does the jockey. They literally run their hearts out right up until a leg breaks -- this is far from normal behavior. Every horseman, track employee, and veternarian that KNOWS better should be doing their part to get this man out of racing.

I'd also like to know how Gil still has his owner's license? How does he pass the background check?

I want to thank the jockeys again. Watching that horse break down was horrible. Worse yet was the fact that knowing Gill's reputation, as I sat down to watch that race, I had a feeling that I knew what the horse's fate might be. I hated being right and helpless all at the same time. That was a class horse with a very successful record. He had done his job and deserved to be retired, not in the hands of someone like Gill. As his front leg broke beneath him, he tumbled down hard. He laid there looking dead already for at least 10 minutes. But that horse had the heart that had made him a winner many times over. He was then determined to get up using only 3 legs and get into the trailer under his own power. It was a very moving scene for everyone to watch. While most in the crowd hoped for a happy ending, the horseman in the audience knew that the way that leg was hanging, his time with us had come to a very sad end.

Michael Gill and his trainers should be banned.

Little Hound
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:31 AM
OMG, Soccermom, I wanted to cry after reading your last post! I sincerely hope some action is taken against this man!

foundationmare
Jan. 25, 2010, 10:04 AM
Soccermom, what you've described is exactly on the money. Breakdowns like that, multiplied many times over, will eventually kill the soul of racing. Yes, perfectly sound horses take a bad step and go down. But the people who take the hard knockers and turn them into pincushions to get just one more out of them have a special place in hell IMO. It's heartbreaking to read that that brave and noble animal struggled to his feet so the deed could be done out of the public eye. It certainly would have been kinder to spare him that final insult.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 25, 2010, 11:37 AM
soccermom, I hope that you send that post to the PENN Management. Foundationmare, Well Done!
I myself am composing something to send, and will post it here when I get it organized in my brain.

I am THRILLED to see that SOMETHING is finally being DONE about this horrible man.

Glimmerglass
Jan. 25, 2010, 12:52 PM
I'm certainly not stating anything new, but the continued unbridled participation by Michael Gill and his complacent trainers and vets in organized, regulated racing makes it hard to say this isn't frankly a blood spot.

If statistics hold up (which they have) then anyone on site will likely witness the death of a Gill horse at an astonishing rate compared to the industry as a whole. Where is the fun in that? That may be entertainment in some third-world nation but it just doesn't work for me.

Breakdowns, fatal or otherwise, do occur at even the most closely monitored race courses with some of the best stock around and unfortunately that is a risk. However there is a clear line, sadly, between racing at one venue over another and it goes far beyond simply the purse value. Nobody goes to the track, except sick individuals, in hopes of seeing a horse (or rider) getting injured.

Since much of day-to-day racing as a business is done via simulcast the presence of on-track viewers (and the chance of offending them) a minor element. As such a track can, by retraining cameras or muting the remarks of a race caller, paper over a horrible breakdowns. Still it doesn't go unnoticed and frankly the industry as a whole is pulled down by these rogues. No matter how good some people are, well intended, etc those people are tarnished by the acts of these scum bags. It's time the industry says enough.

Alagirl
Jan. 25, 2010, 01:19 PM
Interesting question. I've read on numerous boards more directed toward the bettors that many refuse to play on or against Gill when his horses are entered. He only hurts handle.


back from the olden days I remember them doing their homework and knowing stuff many folks would overlook.


And those are the guys the tracks cater to.

Little Hound
Jan. 25, 2010, 01:22 PM
Paulick's story has already generated 53 comments, and it's only 1:20 p.m.

actcasual
Jan. 25, 2010, 01:54 PM
If Penn National does ban Gill, do I have to change the topic of this thread since it will no longer be "Business As Ususal"? Just sayin....

When/if you get to change the topic, that's going to be a big win.

I'm so impressed with your efforts and those other posters who are facilitating change. And I've never had so much respect for jockeys as a group. Knowing that these hard knocking old horses are being used to death for a few thousand dollars makes me cry. I don't want to sound dramatic, but my SO rides a handful of races at Penn; these tough little men taking a stand to protect themselves may save his life, too.

With any luck, media outlets beyond the racing industry will start to pick up on what's happening. Maybe a few thousand hysterical animal lovers would make Penn management appreciate how good they had it when only informed racetrackers were grumbling.

Little Hound
Jan. 25, 2010, 02:32 PM
I understand that The Blood-Horse and Thoroughbred Times are working on stories and are looking for sources who will speak on the record.

SEPowell
Jan. 25, 2010, 02:53 PM
Yippee. I'm so glad to see this coming to a head.

I'm also glad the PA Race Commission is looking at some of the vets. They bear some of the responsibility for letting those horses run.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 25, 2010, 03:27 PM
Amen to that. The most knowledgable is Dr. Pack, but he's generally of the opinion that the older horses can take care of themselves, perhaps he should change his mind on that since they aren't feeling much of the pain that generally slows down the old campaigners.

I, for the first time, think Michael Gill has run his last horse at Penn National.


That's the problem (in my mind anyway). Yes, the vets should be paying more attention, but it's hard to tell if a horse has a lameness issue if it's drugged to the hilt...

I hope Gill does get ruled off, and I hope the other tracks that he runs horses at take heed and examine their own policies when it comes to someone like Mike Gill.

foundationmare
Jan. 25, 2010, 03:29 PM
You hear that sound? I think it's the sound the wheels of justice make when they start moving after being rusted to the tracks for a looong time.

SEPowell
Jan. 25, 2010, 04:30 PM
That's the problem (in my mind anyway). Yes, the vets should be paying more attention, but it's hard to tell if a horse has a lameness issue if it's drugged to the hilt...


In most cases, all you have to do is spend two seconds flexing the horse's ankles, or trying to.

I would love the vets to step up like the Jockeys have.

Little Hound
Jan. 25, 2010, 04:39 PM
Plus, there's a really good chance that Gill was using shock-wave therapy on his horses, probably right before they were scheduled to race.

Dahoss
Jan. 25, 2010, 04:47 PM
Plus, there's a really good chance that Gill was using shock-wave therapy on his horses, probably right before they were scheduled to race.

Nah they don't. You won't find machines like that over there. Only poultice and needles.

lily04
Jan. 25, 2010, 04:55 PM
Nah they don't. You won't find machines like that over there. Only poultice and needles.
You really don't think he is using shock wave at the farm?

Glimmerglass
Jan. 25, 2010, 05:09 PM
And now The Daily Racing Form which rarely cites Penn news has also picked up the story ....

DRF 1-25-10 "Penn jockeys: Gill horses a safety risk" (http://drf.com/news/article/110354.html)


Gill, speaking Monday from his mortgage business in New Hampshire, maintains that his high volume of starters "unfortunately means that some horses will break down" but claimed that his overall breakdown rate is not higher than the norm.

Until the situation is more fully addressed, the six Gill horses entered at Penn for Wednesday (two) and Thursday (four) night have been scratched, according to Gill.


"It's an old song," said Gill, 54. "You don't make many friends when you operate like I do. You're taking a big piece of the pie that everyone is used to cutting up among themselves."

AppJumpr08
Jan. 25, 2010, 05:40 PM
Gill is outraged with the situation, saying he is being singled out in large part because of the way he dominates racing at Penn by racing and winning often and by being active at the claim box.

Umm... but the JOCKEYS are the ones who make money when they ride a winning horse!! The man is seriously delusional to even think that is the main issue.
If they jocks were just money hungry, they would put their personal safety aside, and keep riding Gill's horses.

I hope he gets it, and gets it good this time. Being ruled off of Penn would be just a start, as far as I'm concerned.

Can't wait to see what the other publications come up with for stories... I wonder if Penn officials will actually grant an interview to anyone.

BeverlyAStrauss
Jan. 25, 2010, 06:03 PM
I know Delaware told him he was not welcome several years ago- did they hold to that or did they allow him to race last year? Just curious....

reese
Jan. 25, 2010, 06:06 PM
CA "banned" Gill around 3-4 years ago because he was claiming all these horses and shipping them back east to race.

Delaware banned Gill from getting stalls. He sued the track, but the track won because the track is private property and can allow or deny access to their property.

GLF "looked the other way" when a body was in the trash-pit with a leg severed from Casual Conflict's body. Gill's defense was "his vet was studying the leg for breakdown info".
BTW, Gill's vet at the time has his license revoked for "abuse" in PA years earlier.

Gill never races in NY, NJ, Del., FL... Seems Penn is happy to have Gill fill stalls even though they know what he is doing.
And it took jockeys to draw the line. What A TRAVESTY.
I hope Joe Drape in the NYTimes does an expose on that psychopath Gill.

Little Hound
Jan. 25, 2010, 06:34 PM
Yes, Joe Drape is working on this story, from what I've been told.

Dahoss
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:23 PM
You really don't think he is using shock wave at the farm?

Well as I just PM someone about that. They may have started doing that in the last few months. So it's possible.

Dahoss
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:27 PM
Umm... but the JOCKEYS are the ones who make money when they ride a winning horse!! The man is seriously delusional to even think that is the main issue.
If they jocks were just money hungry, they would put their personal safety aside, and keep riding Gill's horses.

I hope he gets it, and gets it good this time. Being ruled off of Penn would be just a start, as far as I'm concerned.

Can't wait to see what the other publications come up with for stories... I wonder if Penn officials will actually grant an interview to anyone.


He knows what he is doing. He is using the old reverse phycology.

Little Hound
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:42 PM
Here's a link to a photo of the infamous Elk Creek Ranch on Glen Hope Road in Oxford, Pa.:

http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv45/blazesally/ElkCreek.jpg

Little Hound
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:13 PM
Gill horses banned at Penn until further notice:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/55022/penn-temporarily-bans-horses-owned-by-gill

AppJumpr08
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:25 PM
He knows what he is doing. He is using the old reverse phycology.

Oh I know. It just blows my mind that he would even try to pull that over on anyone who knows anything about racing.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:26 PM
Gill horses banned at Penn until further notice:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/55022/penn-temporarily-bans-horses-owned-by-gill

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

AppJumpr08
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:37 PM
It's just nice to see SOMETHING being done. Even if it's short lived.
I realize he's slimy enough to skate out of this issue like he has all the others, but it's nice to see someone standing up to him, even if it's only for a couple days.

Little Hound
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:55 PM
Don't get too excited. Penn is just responding to the public. They'll allow him back in after establishing a bunch of "changes".

They'll come back and say the necropsys showed nothing. Too bad you can't see shock wave on a dead horse.

You hit the nail on the head, Dick. That is why Gill proudly proclaims he hasn't had any bad tests, and dares Penn officials to test the dead horses.

foundationmare
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:15 PM
Well, there you have it horsemen and gamblers: talked to three older riders who are based there, and they’re having second thoughts when it comes to riding races with his horses,” Black said. “They’ve not ridden good races, and they realize they haven’t, because they wouldn’t tuck in behind those horses in the blue and white Gill colors—and it makes good sense not to tuck in behind them when they’re breaking down like that.”

AppJumpr08
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:30 PM
Thoroughbred Times article (http://thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2010/January/25/Jockeys-focus-on-Gill-after-Penn-National-breakdowns.aspx)

EightBelles134
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:44 PM
surprise surprise...if Penn National revokes Gill's stalls...what's he going to do?file and anti-trust lawsuit and sue them for all they're worth....the poor horses that belong to this guy are breaking down left and right and endangering other horses and jockeys on the track and whats he have to say? "Well,I bet you that percentage wise i have less than the average for breakdowns and these are all cheap claimers"...if you ask me this is a bunch of garbage and this guy needs to be banned

foundationmare
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:50 PM
His last statement in the article, that he's lost millions of dollars and a marriage in the process of building his "dynasty" is either an indictment of his bad practices (who would continue to lose millions without calling it a day??) or a reason to delve further into his win at any cost attitude. What, exactly, does he think he's contributing to TB racing?

The fact that he's gone through so many trainers and so many veterinarians attests to the fact that it's NOT SUPERIOR TRAINING that gets his horses into the winner's circle. And it's NOT SUPERIOR TRAINING and expert horsemanship that finds so many in the pit. So what is it Mr. Gill? You have a magic wand?

Clearly the man has no hubris. He blusters about being blackballed and the subject of jealous horsemen (you know, the ones who are honest and care about their horses and play by the rules, stupid fools that they are) and threatens legal action against the jurisdictions that expose him for what he is: a cheater. Boo hoo Mr. Gill. The tears shed are for your doomed horses, the dashed hopes of players on your field and everyone who takes a hit because you refuse to give it up and go into a business that is more suited to your greed and callousness. You'd probably be a good pimp, and I hear there's good money in that too.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 25, 2010, 10:15 PM
Article in the The Patriot-News (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/01/penn_national_jockeys_refuse_t.html)

Not only is he threatening to sue Penn, he's threatening the Jockeys' Guild as well. He's like a small child pitching a fit. If he doesn't get his way he threatens everybody and everything around him. Pathetic.

Rubyfree
Jan. 25, 2010, 11:36 PM
I've stayed out of this one as others clearly have better information than I'm privy too; it is nice to see SOMETHING being done.

Here's a nice quote from the Bloodhorse article:

"The horse that broke down (Jan. 23) was sound; he had just won the race before," Gill said. "I’ll show you his vet records. He'd never been ‘tapped.' Maybe the track was a little hard; that’s part of winter racing when you’re running at a track in January where it’s raining, snowing, and freezing, too.”

To which, I think the only appropriate response is "Guh?" Sure. Must be the track.

I have a hard time figuring out where he's going with an antitrust lawsuit, but I'm sure he can afford a lawyer who will find a reason.

Laurierace
Jan. 25, 2010, 11:41 PM
I saw that quote too and thought that if he thought there was something wrong with the track he should have scratched his horse and stayed home. That is what a real horseman would do, not just send him out anyway and hope for the best. So even if that BS excuse were true its still a check in the asshat column.
Oh yeah, he is a lawyer. That is why he jumps to the lawsuit anytime he feels like it. I hope they fry the bastard.

Rubyfree
Jan. 25, 2010, 11:51 PM
Right Laurie. I love the many implications in that quote- that it's (a) not his fault, it's the track. That (b) that it's (what is the it? Potentially deadly track surface? The breakdown? Which is the 'it' exactly?) 'part of winter racing'....

So..... why wouldn't you go to another track? The answer to that is fairly obvious to anyone who's been following this saga. Why wouldn't you scratch your damn horse? I really hope that his less-than-thoughtful statements to the media are scrutinized carefully by knowledgeable folks should this end up in a court somewhere.

Back under my rock to see how this unfolds.

Glimmerglass
Jan. 25, 2010, 11:56 PM
The Paulick Report thread was closed. While Ray had warned folks late this evening to stop name calling or else I wonder if Gill's legal threats reached down to Kentucky and gave Ray cold feet.

A fact of life is that people do hush up when threats of suits come into play.

Glimmerglass
Jan. 26, 2010, 12:13 AM
Dick I'm not sure if Ray was being cautionary because some were tossing out other culprits by name and effectively derailing the discussion, due to Gill being called certain names, or calls from Gill to put a lid on it. It could be a combination of all three even.

Clearly some participants to that topic were very much in the know there at Penn and I suspect at least one or more persons were Gill-friendly and trying to redirect comments.

Maybe Ray simply put a hold on the debate until further news is released for tomorrow's "edition". Obviously with the TB Times, DRF, BloodHorse and some regional paper's picking up on this it is a story with momentum and interest. As such I cannot see why he'd buckle now. With over 190 posted remarks and easily 20 times that in traffic alone today just to that page this type of topic is why Ray started his website....

Stellaspeed
Jan. 26, 2010, 07:40 AM
Let's see....he's lost MILLIONS in the racing industry, so he must be financing things with his MORTGAGE business...the other riskiest business out there .
I think it's time the IRS shined a flashlight up his tail .

Glimmerglass
Jan. 26, 2010, 08:24 AM
Maybe Ray simply put a hold on the debate until further news is released for tomorrow's "edition". Obviously with the TB Times, DRF, BloodHorse and some regional paper's picking up on this it is a story with momentum and interest.

I guess I was correct: Paulick 1-26-10 "Gill: 'What have I done that's so wrong?'" (http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/gill-what-have-i-done-thats-so-wrong/)


[Ray] contacted him Monday at his Mortgage Specialists office in New Hampshire. Needless to say, he wasn’t happy with the actions of the jockeys or with the unwelcome publicity, and in a 30-minute, emotional interview touched on a wide range of subjects. Among the revelations from the 54-year-old Gill were:

AppJumpr08
Jan. 26, 2010, 08:32 AM
I guess I was correct: Paulick 1-26-10 "Gill: 'What have I done that's so wrong?'" (http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/gill-what-have-i-done-thats-so-wrong/)

There are so many things that are wrong with what Gill said it's hard to know where to start.

But I do have a question based on this quote:
tired of suing racetracks—and winning, by the way, every effing time.”

Did he, or didn't he, win against DE? His horses aren't running there, so... ?

And he compares himself to a $5000 claimer with bad knees and a sore neck... yet he says none of his horses are sore?!

Oh, and all of his horses have gone into retirement programs?? Really?? Could've fooled me!

GAH!!!

frugalannie
Jan. 26, 2010, 08:35 AM
Congrats to everyone who got Penn to do something, however temporary. It's a beginning, and could be a good one. Lawsuit threats get thrown around all the time: one would hope that Penn's and PA Gaming's lawyers would take one look and say "Better to stand up to it then settle". Because caving in opens a whole 'nother can of worms.

So from what source can the media get more accurate statistics on breakdowns than what is feared Penn will come up with? Can/ will several other trainers who can be listed as "Trainer A, Trainer B and Trainer C" provide full disclosure anonymously? And then compare Gill's numbers to those?

Just a thought watching this unfold.

Little Hound
Jan. 26, 2010, 08:45 AM
At Philadelphia Park, they have for years booted people off the grounds and used the justification that it is "private property" to do so. I'm wondering why Penn doesn't just kick Gill's butt to the curb and use the same reasoning.

Glimmerglass
Jan. 26, 2010, 09:01 AM
As pointed out by another the response given by Gill are so wild, diverse and even contradictory it's almost astounding.

Case in point - his own words per Ray:


Gill denies “running sore horses,” and said he didn’t have a single bad test in 2009.
“I love the competition. I love the animal. I am a competitor. I am that $5,000 broke down racehorse. I’m a raw competitor with bad knees and sore neck. What better place to compete than in horse racing, and I don’t even gamble on these horses.”

Well which is it? You don't race horses that are sore or you just love it when sore horses run? The latter of which is so bizarre of a statement to make that I wonder if he grasps how stupid if not repulsive it sounds.

soccermom711
Jan. 26, 2010, 09:10 AM
As I see it, the biggest problem with Gill is that to him, this is truly just a business. He appears to have no emotion involved, the horse is just a means to an end. In every interview I have read thus far, he makes that clear. What true horseman do you know that would refer to their horses as just "cheap claiming horses" - as if that somehow diminishes the value of their life and the cruel end that they meet in his "care". It's true that not every owner/trainer involved in this sport has a love for the horse - there are more than a few, I'm sure, for whom it's just a business. However, these people operate on a much smaller scale than Gill and therefore avoid the spotlight.

I know it may be very tricky legally to stop this kind of behavior, but if someone doesn't, it will hasten the extinction of this sport.

Dispatcher
Jan. 26, 2010, 09:20 AM
I've been following this thread with genuine interest. Haven't had any facts to contribute.

Like the rest of you, I loathe Michael Gill and how he operates. Is he not aware of the 15 horses listed in the first post that broke down? Obviously not or he wouldn't claim his breakdown rate is no worse than that of anyone else.

It's clear that everything he says is delusional. Or designed to show he's innocent of any wrong doing. Sounds like SOP for sleazy mortgage financers. Someone posted he was a lawyer. Is that correct? He certainly has taken the wrong side of the laws by twisting facts & trying to carefully construct his statements. Big problem with that is that horsemen know the truth. Since he's no horseman, just a user of animals he considers commodities, he just doesn't get it.

Drvmb1ggl3
Jan. 26, 2010, 10:07 AM
There is no test for Cobra Venom.

A couple of months ago an Aussie outfit claimed to have developed a testing kit, but I doubt it's widely available in the US, or if it's even approved.

Is there a test for sea-snail venom?

soccermom711
Jan. 26, 2010, 10:14 AM
I am unfamiliar with shockwave therapy. I thought it was just used by vets to treat injured areas. I was not aware that people were abusing it for it's anesthetia-like effects. An old timer just told me he thinks the effects can last for either hours or days. Is this true?

After googling it, it appears the devices used to apply shockwave therapy to horses are now hand held devices. So, when Gill says no one would find those in his barns, I'm guessing that could be because he can simply stick it in his pocket when he leaves.

Alagirl
Jan. 26, 2010, 11:03 AM
How does Gill make his money? Kicking puppies and running sweat shops?

What a pleasant person he is.

Aside from PR lip service, he'd have to run his operation like a human being and start treating his charges as living creatures.

BeverlyAStrauss
Jan. 26, 2010, 11:16 AM
I truly hope the jocks stick to their guns.......

Little Hound
Jan. 26, 2010, 11:57 AM
Dick, please keep us posted as soon as you find out anything about that meeting.

foundationmare
Jan. 26, 2010, 12:00 PM
I, too, hope the jocks stick to their guns. The fact that they took the stance they did on Saturday strongly indicates to ME that they know what's going on with Gill's horses. Jockeys have one of the most dangerous jobs in the world, and they know it. As soon as they hit their mount's back in the paddock they are in peril until they are safely standing on the scales 10 minutes or so later. Anything can happen any step of the way: flipping in the paddock, rank in the post parade, acting up in the gate, stumbling at the break, bolting on the turn, etc., etc. Jockeys take those risks because they've already reconciled the cost/benefit equation, knowing full well that, eventually, they will be hurt.

So, for jockeys to refuse to ride races with Gill entries speaks volumes about their legitimate concern that their cost/benefit equation is skewed and there is an unacceptable level of risk. Jockeys also know a lot about the goings-on backside and the people who work there. 'Nuff said.

I'm wondering if anyone has ever challenged Mr. Gill to explain what his training methods are that are so superior that he can win races at such a clip? After all, he hasn't been hiring remarkably talented trainers, just people who will do things Michael's way...whatever that is.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 26, 2010, 12:32 PM
I'm wondering if anyone has ever challenged Mr. Gill to explain what his training methods are that are so superior that he can win races at such a clip? After all, he hasn't been hiring remarkably talented trainers, just people who will do things Michael's way...whatever that is.

Clearly it's because he is treating all his horses for EPM and doing throat surgeries since one of them can breathe because of the EPM... just read the Paulick Report ( :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: )


I'm waiting on tenterhooks to hear how the meeting with the jocks went....

Little Hound
Jan. 26, 2010, 12:37 PM
Somebody posted on the Paulick Report that she has the name of the person buying and hauling Gill's horses to slaughter in Canada. And also, Gill apparently has a 2nd farm near Elk Creek where he keeps the cripples, near State and Barren Roads in Oxford, Pa.

Very disturbing information.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 26, 2010, 12:52 PM
Somebody posted on the Paulick Report that she has the name of the person buying and hauling Gill's horses to slaughter in Canada. And also, Gill apparently has a 2nd farm near Elk Creek where he keeps the cripples, near State and Barren Roads in Oxford, Pa.

Very disturbing information.


That I hope will be investigated ASAP. That would really put the nails in his coffin, wouldn't it???

Rubyfree
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:00 PM
I know, I know, I was supposed to go back under my rock.... I cannot BELIEVE some of the crap he's saying. I imagine if he were to analyze his statements from a legal perspective, he would advise himself to shut the fork up. From Paulick alone....

-He's been in this business since 1979 and 'can't get a fair shake'. He has an eclipse award! What does he want, a litter and seven virgins feeding him grapes?
-80% of horses have EPM. .... Right. And a myectomy is the answer when they have EPM. 25% of the human population has a diagnosable mental illness, so let's give most people a lobotomy. I nominate Gill to go first.
-He's given 20 horses away in the last thirty days. Anyone in that area of PA want to make some local inquiries to locate any of those horses? At that rate, the PA countryside should just be littered with Gill rejects in 'good homes'.

Rubyfree
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:02 PM
Somebody posted on the Paulick Report that she has the name of the person buying and hauling Gill's horses to slaughter in Canada. And also, Gill apparently has a 2nd farm near Elk Creek where he keeps the cripples, near State and Barren Roads in Oxford, Pa.

Very disturbing information.

That's the sort of information that might actually make a difference.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:05 PM
And I'm sure the necropsies are going to inconclusive. :sigh:
He only had Laughing Moon for two of his 37 starts. So I'm sure what ever they find could be blamed on the previous 7 ad a half years of the horse's life.

I just hope the jockeys stick to their guns.

Dispatcher
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:06 PM
Somebody posted on the Paulick Report that she has the name of the person buying and hauling Gill's horses to slaughter in Canada. And also, Gill apparently has a 2nd farm near Elk Creek where he keeps the cripples, near State and Barren Roads in Oxford, Pa.

Very disturbing information.

He actually KEEPS them?? I thought he sold them to slaughter. Or did I misread your post?

AppJumpr08
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:19 PM
He actually KEEPS them?? I thought he sold them to slaughter. Or did I misread your post?


I would assume he'd keep them until there is a full load... he's certainly not stupid enough to send large numbers of horses through New Holland these days, so I'd guess there is a truck that goes straight to Canada from his farm...
But maybe that's just the pessimist in me...

Alagirl
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:33 PM
I am sure if any of his charges showed up at a low end sale, the media would be all over it. I am sure there are people who are on the lookout.

So loading them up and shipping them out, hardly conspicuous for a big outfit like his.


On another note, I did some digging - not too much just so I can tell my husband not to drop a penny on races with his horses in...

I came across a blog that was kinda interesting. The Author welcomed Gill back to the game, under the assumption of good care for the horses.

A couple of ex trainers chimed in as well as Sam Elliot, VP of racing in Suffolk Downs.

Now you tell me how one can step in front of the media and announce 'Zero Tolerance' for slaughter while at the same time cheering Gill's intentions to bring his show to that track so he can 'enjoy racing with his children'

(not to mention how traumatized I was when I saw my first break down on a track, being maybe 12 years old...)


I am off now to make more coffee and ponder if the answer to the meaning of life is not closer to 43 than 42...

DeeThbd
Jan. 26, 2010, 02:18 PM
Someone needs to drive to the alleged killer barn TODAY and get some evidence without trespassing. Doesn't anyone know a current worker who will come out and spill the beans? From what I heard, it looks like Adamo is trying to save his butt and throwing Gill under the bus. Maybe he could save face by telling the truth.

I hope Tony does the right thing....he started out with bottom level horses and ought to know that taking shortcuts does not replace honest, hard work.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 26, 2010, 02:27 PM
Someone needs to drive to the alleged killer barn TODAY and get some evidence without trespassing. Doesn't anyone know a current worker who will come out and spill the beans? From what I heard, it looks like Adamo is trying to save his butt and throwing Gill under the bus. Maybe he could save face by telling the truth.


What is the address? Does anyone know? I' pulled up an aerial image on mapquest, but there appear to be several horse farms in the Barren Road/State Road area in Oxford... Not that I can do a drive by today seeing as I'm in Maine, but I'm curious to see what it looks like from the air, if nothing else.

I hope Adamo does roll over on him.

lily04
Jan. 26, 2010, 02:40 PM
What is the address? Does anyone know? I' pulled up an aerial image on mapquest, but there appear to be several horse farms in the Barren Road/State Road area in Oxford... Not that I can do a drive by today seeing as I'm in Maine, but I'm curious to see what it looks like from the air, if nothing else.

I hope Adamo does roll over on him.

Post # 236 has a link to aerial veiw. It is about 1 mile (as the sober:winkgrin:crow flies) from Fair Hill Training Center.

caryledee
Jan. 26, 2010, 02:41 PM
What exactly do they plan on proving by doing a necropsy? I'm sure with an older horse it is going to show the horse had arthritis, old injuries, etc. of which Gill may or may not have been aware of. I don't see how it will prove his innocence or his guilt.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 26, 2010, 02:42 PM
Post # 236 has a link to aerial veiw. It is about 1 mile (as the sober:winkgrin:crow flies) from Fair Hill Training Center.

That is his Training farm, correct?

I ment the alleged second farm that serves as a dumping ground for his cripples.

NoBSshoer
Jan. 26, 2010, 02:52 PM
From what I've heard, they will hold their ground until those horses are off the grounds.
We can only hope.
As for this Adamo, I've heard from some pretty reliable sources that I trust totally that he left Canada owing everybody money up there.

Why in the world does Pennsylvania license people like that?

I know, is just another case of making welcome anybody from out of state right?:rolleyes:

lily04
Jan. 26, 2010, 03:15 PM
That is his Training farm, correct?

I ment the alleged second farm that serves as a dumping ground for his cripples.
He does not dump his horses at the farm near Barren Rd. For a very short time in 2008 when his claiming spree started he kept a few here (much to the dismay of some of the people that have been here for many years) until the people that were renting stalls from him at Elk Creek Ranch could find other places to keep their horses. I am definatly not a supporter of his practices but we don't need rumours started about our beautiful,quiet little training center.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 26, 2010, 03:35 PM
He does not dump his horses at the farm near Barren Rd. For a very short time in 2008 when his claiming spree started he kept a few here (much to the dismay of some of the people that have been here for many years) until the people that were renting stalls from him at Elk Creek Ranch could find other places to keep their horses. I am definatly not a supporter of his practices but we don't need rumours started about our beautiful,quiet little training center.

Not trying to start rumors at all. Just wanted to find out if the second farm that was mentioned in the discussion on the Paulick article existed or not. Thanks for clarifying. :)

lily04
Jan. 26, 2010, 04:03 PM
Not trying to start rumors at all. Just wanted to find out if the second farm that was mentioned in the discussion on the Paulick article existed or not. Thanks for clarifying. :)
Sorry for being so rude earlier but the poster on the PR just does not have the facts. Farm owner rented a few stalls to Tim Hooper (who is a very nice guy) in 2008 in which he put some horses which he had claimed for MG. If he had any after that they must have been tied to trees out in the woods (just kidding). They only stayed for a couple of months. Tim left 2 behind when he left but a girl came and bought them as riding horses a couple of months later. I have stabled at this farm for 15 years and galloped horses for the farm owner for many years before that. He keeps a beautiful place and does not let people dump their slaughterbound horses. There are several people on this BB that have been here and know what a nice place it is.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 26, 2010, 04:59 PM
Sorry for being so rude earlier but the poster on the PR just does not have the facts. Farm owner rented a few stalls to Tim Hooper (who is a very nice guy) in 2008 in which he put some horses which he had claimed for MG. If he had any after that they must have been tied to trees out in the woods (just kidding). They only stayed for a couple of months. Tim left 2 behind when he left but a girl came and bought them as riding horses a couple of months later. I have stabled at this farm for 15 years and galloped horses for the farm owner for many years before that. He keeps a beautiful place and does not let people dump their slaughterbound horses. There are several people on this BB that have been here and know what a nice place it is.

I didn't think you were rude earlier at all. That's the downfall of the internet - gossip spreads so quickly! Glad to get the facts :)

Little Hound
Jan. 26, 2010, 06:20 PM
Anthony Adamo's wife has posted a rebuttal on the Paulick Report, in case anyone is interested. It's Comment # 94 under the "What Have I done so wrong?" story.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 26, 2010, 06:33 PM
Anthony Adamo's wife has posted a rebuttal on the Paulick Report, in case anyone is interested. It's Comment # 94 under the "What Have I done so wrong?" story.

Maybe Gill serves the same kind of Kool Aid Pat Parelli does?

foundationmare
Jan. 26, 2010, 07:59 PM
It should be easy for Mr. Gill to provide names and contact info for the horses he has sold for a buck. Hope someone at Penn is looking into that. As someone who is involved in re-homing retired TBs, for money or for free, I can attest to the reality of finding "good homes" (boy, isn't that a subjective term?!) for the best of them. Mr. Gill is full of canal water if he thinks that people are so easily fooled into thinking that he has gone out of his way to find "good homes" for his rejects.

"Why don't you like me?" He seriously asked Paulick that?? Clearly the guy isn't just cruel, he's pathetic.

Hey, Mr. Gill: why don't you like your horses?

Meredith Clark
Jan. 26, 2010, 08:09 PM
God.. I drive up and down those roads almost every day. I'm by no means connected to the racing world besides having a few OTTBs and a good friend who gallops at Fair Hill and has a lay up farm in Oxford (not the dumping ground for MG's cripples so !)

As someone who loves OTTBs I feel like i've been living under a rock with all of this going on so close to me. :no:

KBEquine
Jan. 26, 2010, 09:15 PM
(not to mention how traumatized I was when I saw my first break down on a track, being maybe 12 years old...)

You have boiled down to its barest essence what is wrong with horse racing.

People love racing for the beauty of the horse. People hate racing for the trauma to the horse.

Not to mention the trauma to their children -

People who love racing are almost always introduced to the track by older relatives & have great memories - they say I went to the track with my Dad & hung out with his friends & it was so cool to be there. Now, parents won't take their kids to the track, to avoid exposing them to this cruel side of the sport.

When Eight Belles broke down & Matt Lauer (normally a pretty calm guy) interviewed Larry Jones the next day, I was surprised at his accusatory tone - until Matt Lauer said he was watching the race with his son - and was put in the uncomfortable position of explaining to a distraught child what happened. He definitely held it against Larry.

It's always about the horse. The Michael Gills of the world will never understand that. And racing will die a slow death, until the racing powers-that-be get it.

(And I'm talking about the general public - there's a comnpletely different angst for the horse's connections.)

While I don't currently have a horse at the track, I do have an owner's license in PA & Penn is my closest track. I don't especially mind it being condemned as a 3rd rate track. I DO mind when it is not safe for horse or jockey.

I hope the Penn jockey colony stands its ground & I hope everyone supports them.

Alagirl
Jan. 27, 2010, 01:45 AM
Well around here you can't take a kid to the track because ZOMG they GAMBLE...

I mean, we as a whole have removed ourselves from much of real life.

A catastrophic breakdown is part of it.

It just should not be seen as business as usual and carelessly being put in the writeoff column.

The horse - I can still see it as it was yesterday - stepped into a rabbit hole.

The it got away from the track staff and cantered 3 legged to the back side, leg swinging. The owner was like us a small guy who owned and trained, pretty much along side us.

But this character not only uses horses to further his ambition like they are cars, he also uses other people's horses and is playing Russian Roulette with his Jockeys and the 10 or so other guys in the field. That is almost criminal!

WinterTriangle
Jan. 27, 2010, 04:00 AM
Can someone explain to me the manner in which Penn reports and records breakdown stats?

And specifically, what is NOT recorded?

Thanks.

2boys
Jan. 27, 2010, 05:56 AM
There must be a way to compile a list of horses that end up at rescues from him. That would be a pretty clear picture of his regard for where his horses end up after their racing careers.

Little Hound
Jan. 27, 2010, 08:39 AM
Can someone explain to me the manner in which Penn reports and records breakdown stats?

And specifically, what is NOT recorded?

Thanks.

What are NOT recorded are horses that are eased, pulled up, vanned off, or break down in the morning. Only those horses that suffer catastrophic breakdowns during a race and are euthanized are reported.

By the way, The Jockey Club has an "Equine Injury Database," of which Penn National is a part of. However, I once called TJC to find out specific info on breakdowns at Penn, and I was told info on individual racetracks wasn't available. Here is the link:

http://www.jockeyclub.com/initiatives.asp

Alagirl
Jan. 27, 2010, 08:47 AM
Once again, I think the gambling resources are your best bet. I think not much happens at a track they don't hear about.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 27, 2010, 08:49 AM
I could've SWORN that the chart from Jan 23rd didn't mention Laughing Moon's breakdown - that it said he weakened, but didn't mention the fall. Just checked it again, and now it says he weakened and fell after the finish line... am I nuts, or was it changed? Is it even possible to change a chart once it's been "published"?

foundationmare
Jan. 27, 2010, 08:52 AM
2Boys, I highly doubt any of his horses end up at "rescue" facilities. It is far more likely that they are moved wholesale to Canada. There is no possible way that the horses he has acquired that are no longer racing have found "good homes". No.possible.way.

foundationmare
Jan. 27, 2010, 08:54 AM
We cross posted AppJ, I think you're right. I remember checking the chart and seeing that the horse finished third and no mention of anything untoward happening to Laughing Moon during or after the race. Hmmmm.

Little Hound
Jan. 27, 2010, 08:58 AM
That chart footnote for Laughing Moon did NOT originally mention she "weakend and fell." Apparently Equibase must have intentionally changed it after the omission was widely reported in the press.

AppJumpr08
Jan. 27, 2010, 09:02 AM
2Boys, I highly doubt any of his horses end up at "rescue" facilities. It is far more likely that they are moved wholesale to Canada. There is no possible way that the horses he has acquired that are no longer racing have found "good homes". No.possible.way.


With the number of horses who "vanish" from Gill's barns ever year, I'd think I'd be pretty aware of horses going into retirement programs at Suffolk... but... I think Gill "takes care of his own problems" much of the time...



I'm so glad they did change the chart - I was confused as heck when I looked at it this morning!!

DLee
Jan. 27, 2010, 09:07 AM
Maybe Gill serves the same kind of Kool Aid Pat Parelli does?

Yeah, that's a fair comparison. :rolleyes:

caffeinated
Jan. 27, 2010, 09:07 AM
Today's item from the Paulick Report:

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/maggi-to-mike-%E2%80%98please-get-out-of-racing%E2%80%99/

Letter from Maggi Moss to Mike Gill:


You want to stop being picked on? Then do something about it. Hire an outside vet to come to your farm and go through all your horses and tell you which ones are racing sound and healthy. Quit running some horses three and sometimes four times a month.

Quit trying to break records and take care of the horses you have. Publicly tell us where all your horses go when you are through with them or no longer have their conditions. Donate some of your winnings to the Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation or other worthy cause. Do something for the industry and save some horses in lieu of destroying them. Stop the perception that horses are a piece of property for you for your personal gain.

If you can’t do any of this, please just get out: you continue to hurt the industry, not help it.

Pronzini
Jan. 27, 2010, 09:16 AM
Pretty interesting coming from Maggi Moss--and I am a fan since I think she plays the claiming game very, very well. But flash back a year or two ago and the same stuff was being said about her coming from the same quarters. It might have even been posted about on this forum.

Whether or not she has changed her MO, she has clearly taken the PR bull by the horns. Smart lady.