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Kellyaw
May. 19, 2010, 07:45 PM
I have always ridden in Stubben saddles. Probably because my original dressage instructor was taught by Germans and loved Stubbens. I bought Stubben saddles for my young daughters when they joined Pony Club, and I even have one that I use for endurance riding.

If you go to the Stubben home page and click on "Custom Fitting" they will take your info and have a rep contact you. She drives to your place for a $100 fee and custom fits you and your horse.

Recently the rep came to my barn to fit my high-withered horse for a jumping saddle. I wanted the Biomex seat. She fitted us with a saddle that had only 1 finger wither clearance. The flaps seemed too short for my femur. It did not have the Biomex seat. The rep assured me that the flaps fit correctly, that the pommel was designed to not further compress on the withers, and that the soft cushy seat was equivalent to a Biomex seat for $400 less. She further assured me that if I rode in the saddle for a week and still wanted the custom with Biomex that I could return it and she would happily order me a custom saddle.

The next weekend, I used the saddle for a X-country jumping clinic which was to be followed the next day by an all-day Derby. As I was flying over my 1st jump, my instructor asked me why I was riding in such an ill-fitting saddle. She informed me that my knees were way in front of the knee rolls of the too-short flaps, and that the pommel was pressing down on my poor horse's withers.:cry: I had to skip the Derby the next day for fear of hurting my horse. I forfeited my fee of $135. I immediately sent the saddle back with a letter saying I needed to order a custom saddle.

Guess what? The rep refused to accept the saddle from the UPS guy! When I called to ask why, she told her assistant to tell me that she "was out of town, no, with a customer". They had quite a discussion about what reason to use for not accepting the saddle. I heard every word, as one of our phones was acting as a microphone.:lol: I could sense that her assistant was upset about having to lie for her employer. Something weird was going on!

I thought maybe she was having financial troubles and called Stubben directly to see if she still worked for them. The man said he would check into it but there are "two sides to every story". Well, her side came in an email saying that she had lost my phone number and that I had screamed at her assistant and made her cry.
(I was very careful to speak in a calm voice and certainly never screamed.)

I am wondering if reps buy the saddles from Stubben and must sell them to re-coup their investment. That would explain why she was so keen to sell me a saddle from the back of her truck. A custom-ordered saddle would have been much more expensive, but I was willing to pay for one that fit properly. Maybe she would not have made much profit on my custom order?

I canceled the visa charge for the saddle (always pay with a credit card!) and now don't know what to do with it. In the meantime, I am missing all my fun events 'cause I don't have a proper jumping saddle. I feel very stupid to have been so naive and for not listening to the little voice that was telling me, "THIS SADDLE DOES NOT FIT YOUR HORSE!".

I needed a new dressage saddle too, and was afraid to buy the Stubben I wanted. I just got a CWD cause the rep was at my instructor's barn with a saddle that fit my horse and me really well, so I forked out the $4250. I have been riding in it for about 6 weeks and I love it; keeps my legs where they should be. CWD makes jumping saddles too, but I'm worried about having so much invested with a company I don't really know much about, or whether they would be reliable if I needed repairs, service, etc...

Just writing this to let others know that used car salesmen are not the only ones to practice "Bait and Switch" as a sales ploy...

Go Fish
May. 19, 2010, 10:18 PM
Well, can't help with the Stubben rep but I think you'd be happy with the CWD. Several riders in my barn have them and they are quite nice. The local rep has been a dream to work with. I rode in one a while back and would have one in a heartbeat if I needed a new saddle.

I ride hunters, so take that with a grain of salt!

ParadiseFarm
May. 19, 2010, 10:49 PM
Wow.
Call Stubben directly. They recently helped me with a difficult to fit horse and they were fantastic.
The fitter was super helpful and between her and the folks at Stubben, they got me a web saddle deal at a greatly reduced price.
I am shocked to hear of what happened to you.

atouchofclass
May. 20, 2010, 09:43 AM
Call Steuben in Germany directly, I have heard similar stories about their USA operation and it seems that their are some problems going on and Stueben In Germany should know about it.

ParadiseFarm
May. 20, 2010, 03:41 PM
Stubben is made in Switzerland.

The Stubben North America phone number is 1-800-550-1110. I have found the North American ownership to be professional, courteous and very helpful. That Rep you dealt with should be reported to them.

BAC
May. 20, 2010, 04:13 PM
I don't know what's going on with Stubben, they have always been a reputable company, I can't imagine they would condone their reps treatment of you.

I have a CWD for almost 5 years now and am thrilled both with the saddle and the excellent customer service I have received. I also have a CWD bridle. Even better, we have Amandine right here on COTH bulletin board (posting as Miloutte55 I think), who manages their US office, and she is always ready to help.

charlee
May. 22, 2010, 02:26 AM
As usual, there is always another side to THIS story. I am that awful Stubben Rep you have had to deal with, but in all fairness some clarification is necessary. First, I am not a Rep for Stubben -I have been trained by them to be an exclusive Stubben dealer, but I am an independent. I do not work out of my truck (you know this), I own 2 brick and mortar stores, and have for the past 6 years. YOU know me as I have properly fitted the 2 Stubben saddles you have purchased previously (and love, still). I have NEVER charged you a fitting fee; you called me directly to book your fitting appointment, not Stubben; and finally- probably THE most important thing, is that you never even gave me the courtesy of picking up the phone or sending me an email telling me you had some concerns with your saddle. If you had, I would have been more than happy to work with you on finding the perfect saddle. I do not know of any company who will accept unauthorized returns, it is simply our policy and this is also posted on our website. Your shipment was returned because it was unauthorized, plain and simple. When you called in I was in a meeting with a customer and asked for a message to be taken, nothing more. You DID make my associate cry with your screaming, and when you called back you hung up on my partner who was asking you to leave your phone number so I could call you back. I sent you an email the next day because I did not have your phone number, but you never responded to this. You did reverse your cc charges, but they have since been credited back to us- you have the merchandise still, remember. I pride myself on providing excellent customer service but I need to be given the opportunity, which in this case I was not. However you feel about myself and my retail stores, Stubben is my supplier, not my employer. They are a fantastic, reputable company and not deserving of your unwarranted, slanderous acquisations. I truly wish you the best, it is unfortunate you chose this path.

lesgarcons
May. 22, 2010, 05:05 AM
We are getting instant gratification with regard to hearing the other person's side lately. Suddenly I don't even have time to blend my margarita before the villain from the OP pops up on the thread!

soloudinhere
May. 22, 2010, 06:48 AM
That story is great, etc but it still doesn't explain why she thought a saddle that clearly didn't fit according to the OP was a good fit.

Nowhere was it addressed that this professionally fitted saddle (supposedly) didn't fit the horse at all.

Well, two sides to every story, and the truth is somewhere in between...

egontoast
May. 22, 2010, 07:29 AM
Why didn't the OP call the seller and tell her she was sending it back to make sure she was still within the one week trial period. Were there any UPS fees payable by the receiver of the pkg?

Very oddly handled by both parties by the sounds of it.

mvp
May. 22, 2010, 08:42 AM
How do you not have a phone number for someone to whom you have sold three custom-fitted saddles?

And speaking of two sides, no one can be made to cry without her consent. I don't care if the customer made your assistant cry, nor should anyone else. Perhaps the assistant needs to toughen up as well? It's just business, after all. How do you confuse "out of town" with "with a customer?"

It does sound like the OP dropped the ball a bit. If she has a CWD in her hands, the refused return on the Stubben is old news. As much as a company Fs up, you can't just reverse charges and sit there with the saddle in your living room doing nothing.

I'm not surprised that Stubben refused to accept shipment from a customer who had been sold a saddle by an independent retailer. It needs to go back to the retailer, not the manufacturer.

But I do know companies who make you go through the whole authorization thing and the smaller ones who don't. I try not to deal with the ones who make me jump through hoops. But to be quoted policy when I am unhappy? You may win the argument, having print and logic on your side, but you don't win customer satisfaction this way.

Hunter Mom
May. 22, 2010, 10:01 AM
Someone pass the popcorn!

NutsR4Gerbils
May. 22, 2010, 02:51 PM
Ok, jumper mom.. if you don't like the drama, why are you reading and posting to this subject.

First off "bait and switch"...who is doing the baiting and who is doing the switching. Wow, I think its wonderful that the dealer gave you ample enough time to try this saddle out. Are you sure you put it on and rode the horse it was fitted to. And sending something back with not even contacting the dealer --- that seems a little sleezy. Who was trying to pull what. I have purchased 100's of saddles and the ONLY company that ever stood behind their work was STUBBEN. AND YES... STUBBEN USA. Get a life people, especially the buyer of this problem... take the sleeze of of your buying and returning habits, and also "that lying thing" and deal with people how you would like to be dealt with.:winkgrin:

Long Spot
May. 22, 2010, 03:03 PM
Ok, jumper mom.. if you don't like the drama, why are you reading and posting to this subject.

First off "bait and switch"...who is doing the baiting and who is doing the switching. Wow, I think its wonderful that the dealer gave you ample enough time to try this saddle out. Are you sure you put it on and rode the horse it was fitted to. And sending something back with not even contacting the dealer --- that seems a little sleezy. Who was trying to pull what. I have purchased 100's of saddles and the ONLY company that ever stood behind their work was STUBBEN. AND YES... STUBBEN USA. Get a life people, especially the buyer of this problem... take the sleeze of of your buying and returning habits, and also "that lying thing" and deal with people how you would like to be dealt with.:winkgrin:

That is an oddly rambling and almost incoherent post. Sounds like Nuts fits into the middle or the fringes of the story some how. I just can't figure it out quite yet. Crying assistant? Business partner? Best friend?

It's too early for a real drink. Off to put together some iced tea.

NE_Rider
May. 22, 2010, 03:05 PM
That is an oddly rambling and almost incoherent post. Sounds like Nuts fits into the middle or the fringes of the story some how. I just can't figure it out quite yet. Crying assistant? Business partner? Best friend?

It's too early for a real drink. Off to put together some iced tea.

Completely agreed :cool:!!!

whbar158
May. 22, 2010, 03:15 PM
The CWD is her dressage saddle she got the stubben for a jumping saddle if I read correctly. I have heard of people being sold on a saddle they weren't sure quite fit because the "fitter" said it would work just fine, and then when the fitter is told later it actually didn't fit at all the fitter claims the buyer wanted that saddle and only that saddle. Stuff like that makes my head hurt.

Anyways hope this works out!

feather river
May. 22, 2010, 05:57 PM
I think we have all seen this movie before. Way too much money going around here, not enough buyer skepticism about someone hustling saddles/tack/etc. in a down economy/unreasonable expectations on the part of the buyer--she took the saddle on the spot when she had bad feelings about it right away--and the seller sounds like she is looking to dodge out of any responsibility. Thank goodness for being able to stop those credit card charges, and if the rep doesn't want the saddle back, then her loss.

Sounds like Stubben should check this rep out a bit more thoroughly--this thread give the company a bad rap.

When you are in the sales/service business, the customer is always right--even when they are wrong.

Paragon
May. 22, 2010, 06:46 PM
I don't think it can be a "bait and switch" if nobody switched. Or, really, baited. You bought a bad saddle that didn't fit your horse. That sucks.

Apart from that, I have LOLs all around.

Kellyaw
May. 22, 2010, 07:28 PM
On May 21, 2010, Charlee wrote:

"I did not have your phone number,"

False - My phone history lists numerous phone calls between the rep and myself over a 7 month period, many are recorded voice mails. My computer lists 27 emails from the Stubben rep to myself between 9-14-09 and 4-21-10 and 19 emails from me to her; most include my phone number.

"I have NEVER charged you a fitting fee;"

False - Several of the emails and one voice mail explains the fitting fee. Even though she schedules clients in clusters and around shows/expos, she still charges the fee based on her store location. I thought this was normal and reasonable. I have receipts and email records:

Subject: Re: saddle purchase-oregon
Date: September 22, 2009 9:26:35 PM PDT
From: hcarder@comcast.net
To: kawagner1@mac.com

Hi Kelly -
I really look forward to seeing you Thursday morning - I wanted to make sure you knew that I now charge a fitting fee - gas is just too expensive for me not to do so. Your fitting is 200 miles round trip from where I will be so I do need to charge a $100.00 fitting fee - I hope you understand. If there is a problem with this please call me at XXX XXX XXXX as I am leaving tomorrow morning.

See you soon,
Heather


Subject: Re: saddle fitting
Date: December 20, 2009 1:23:50 PM PST
From: hcarder@comcast.net
To: kawagner1@mac.com

Hi Kelly -
I don't have any current plans to go down, but would be more than happy to make a trip for you - I would just need to impose a fitting fee to cover my expenses down there, but it would be minimal ($150.00) - I can work you in between Xmas and the New Yar, or the first week of January, or I will be back down in March for the NW Horse Expo (February is shot with our trip to Scottsdale and the rest of January is booked with out of town travel).

I hope you have a wonderful Holiday and hope to hear from you soon!

Heather


"you called me directly to book your fitting appointment, not Stubben;"

False - When I need a fitting, I click on "request a custom fitting" on the Stubben site:

http://www.stubbennorthamerica.com/stu09CustomFitting.html

enter my info, and the rep emails or calls me. If I do not hear from her, then I call Stubben to order a saddle directly. There is a specific amount of time to try it, then I must ship it back or be permanently charged.

On Dec 28, 2009, at 10:58 AM, Heather Carder wrote:

Hi Kelly -
I'm sorry to bother you, but I am keenly interested in how Stubben took care of everything for you. I not only work with Stubben but for them in the NW and they always keep me in the loop, but they don't have any record of helping you recently - can you please better explain how they have assisted you so I can stay in the loop?

I really appreciate it

Heather


----- Original Message -----
To: "Heather Carder" <hcarder@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: saddle fitting


Hi Heather - I wrote to you on Nov. 28th about getting a Maestoso but never heard back; I thought maybe you were on vacation. On Dec. 17th I emailed VTO to try and order one. The owner advised me to demo one first, as it is a very expensive saddle and the deep seat feels different. I called Stubben and they sent me a demo Maestoso which I returned a week ago. I did tell Stubben that I had contacted you first, as you helped me with both my Scandica and Scout, which worked out perfectly. Hope that helps! Kelly


"I do not work out of my truck (you know this)"


False - she has always brought a truck filled with saddles which I have helped load and unload.



Well I could provide more evidence to dispute several other statements, but that is probably enough entertainment for at least ONE margarita. I did ship the saddle back to the rep well within the allowed time frame. I simply requested a longer flap, biomex seat, and higher wither clearance. Yes, the saddle is still in the shipping box in my living room (addressed to exactly where the rep told me to send it). It is a lovely saddle and I so wish I could use it. The 1st instructor who told me it does not fit either me or my horse is an eventing clinician and is well-known so I will keep her name out of this dispute. I did take the saddle to a hunter/jumper barn last week to show to the instructor. We never even put it on the horse as she took one look and said, "I can't believe she sold you such a short flap for your femur length!"

The ladies there all highly recommended CWD for excellent fitting and service. I am so happy with my CWD dressage saddle, I will just go ahead and order a CWD jumping saddle. In the meantime I am going to ride the local Memorial Day foxhunt in my endurance saddle. :lol:

Looks like we are headed to court on this one. (I wonder, will I need to haul my horse, wearing the ill-fitting saddle, to the courthouse for evidence?) What would Judge Judy say??

Live and learn and gotta just keep laughing!

lcw579
May. 22, 2010, 07:32 PM
Someone pass the popcorn!

I think we should have beer and pretzels instead. ;)

mvp
May. 22, 2010, 07:47 PM
Ok, jumper mom.. if you don't like the drama, why are you reading and posting to this subject.

First off "bait and switch"...who is doing the baiting and who is doing the switching. Wow, I think its wonderful that the dealer gave you ample enough time to try this saddle out. Are you sure you put it on and rode the horse it was fitted to. And sending something back with not even contacting the dealer --- that seems a little sleezy. Who was trying to pull what. I have purchased 100's of saddles and the ONLY company that ever stood behind their work was STUBBEN. AND YES... STUBBEN USA. Get a life people, especially the buyer of this problem... take the sleeze of of your buying and returning habits, and also "that lying thing" and deal with people how you would like to be dealt with.:winkgrin:

Before you leap to anyone's defense, you might wish to read both sides-- friend's and foe's-- at least as carefully as some of us in the stands did.

It's not that the OP didn't try to contact the person from whom she bought the saddle. According to her story she did and Charee, the independent Stubben rep, dropped the ball. You can read the "he said, she said" in both their posts about how that communication got screwed up.

The OP then returned the saddle directly to Stubben with a note of explanation. Stubben, the manufacturer not seller, wouldn't play ball and probably said WTF? because they hadn't sold the saddle retail in the first place.

I find the question, "Did you put the saddle on the right horse?" (Ya dumb-a$$) just beyond reasonable.

Fights happen on this forum, but they are conducted with a little more care than you showed. Just FYI should you stay.

Kellyaw
May. 22, 2010, 07:48 PM
Someone asked why "Bait and Switch"? The Stubben website is the "Bait":


http://www.stubbennorthamerica.com/stu09CustomFitting.html


Infinite Possibilities
When you consider our six seat depths, multiple tree widths, flap lengths and forwardness, eight seat sizes, and our wide variety of leather choices... well, the level of our customization is practically boundless. We are confident that we can solve just about any fitting issue, even one that you may have previously struggled with. Since Stübben was founded in 1894, we have crafted saddles for every breed, size, and shape of horse, from high withered thoroughbreds to draft horses. Our specialty, and one of the reasons many people turn to Stübben Custom, is hard to fit horses.

Let’s Get Specific
While there are numerous options to choose from, you won’t have to make these choices on your own. With Stübben Custom, a Stübben Certified Master Saddle Fitter will visit with you and take specific measurements that will ensure a proper fit for you and your horse. No more “narrow, medium, or wide,” or any other types of approximate measurements. The measurements used to craft your Stübben Custom saddle will be unique to you.

Throughout the Stübben Custom experience, you will have the benefit of constant support from our Customer Service Center. We can keep you updated from your first contact with us through follow up after you have received your saddle. We are committed to making this an enjoyable experience for you.

And then the rep sells you a saddle from the back of her truck and tells you to send it back if it doesn't fit and she will order you a custom fit, but she really just wants to unload the saddle and never deal with you again. That's the "Switch".

mvp
May. 22, 2010, 07:53 PM
OP-- just to be clear: Who told you to send the ill-fitting saddle where?

Long Spot
May. 22, 2010, 09:34 PM
In the meantime I am going to ride the local Memorial Day foxhunt in my endurance saddle. :lol:



Nothing wrong with that. :yes:

Marshmallow Filling
May. 22, 2010, 10:11 PM
There seems to be a lot of greenies here. Two are attemping to present opposing sides of an issue while a third is just coming in from left field. Is it possible that they are all alters? However the OP did give emails (which may may not have been a good plan).

Anyhow, it seems to me like the three above-mentioned posters all have something a little fluffy in their heads!

luckles
May. 24, 2010, 11:40 AM
I have bought many Stubben saddles and have been very happy with their customer service. Have you spoken to anyone in their office about this problem. I am 100% sure that would like to be made aware of it and do the best they can to make you happy. I am also 100% sure that Stubben sells only through tack stores and not with reps out of the back of their cars. Was the person you dealt with affiliated with a store? It sounds like they are misrepresenting themselves as working for Stubben.

I really think you should give reputable company like Stubben the benefit of the doubt.

LARGEBORE
May. 24, 2010, 12:22 PM
Does Stubben really sell out of the back of a truck ???

eqsiu
May. 24, 2010, 05:22 PM
Stubben is made in Switzerland.

The Stubben North America phone number is 1-800-550-1110. I have found the North American ownership to be professional, courteous and very helpful. That Rep you dealt with should be reported to them.

The saddles are made in Switzerland, but the company is a German company with headquarters in Krefeld, Germany. Ther number is 12 02151-8568, but I have no clue what country codes and such would be needed.

eqsiu
May. 24, 2010, 05:26 PM
Does Stubben really sell out of the back of a truck ???

I think she means the rep brought a truck full of saddles to try.

Carolinadreamin'
May. 24, 2010, 06:23 PM
I'd like to know the type of person that buys "100's of saddles", yet posts like someone who could not afford some grammar and spelling lessons. Back under the bridge you go, with all your "100's of saddles".

luckles
May. 24, 2010, 06:42 PM
NO! Stubben does NOT sell out of trucks, cars. etc. All sales are done ONLY through a dealer. Now, your fitter may bring the fitting saddle from the store in their vehicle.

wanderlust
May. 24, 2010, 06:47 PM
The OP then returned the saddle directly to Stubben with a note of explanation. Stubben, the manufacturer not seller, wouldn't play ball and probably said WTF? because they hadn't sold the saddle retail in the first place.
I'm pretty sure she sent the saddle back to the rep's address, not to Stubben. The rep refused delivery.

NE_Rider
May. 24, 2010, 07:01 PM
Guess what? The rep refused to accept the saddle from the UPS guy! When I called to ask why, she told her assistant to tell me that she "was out of town, no, with a customer". They had quite a discussion about what reason to use for not accepting the saddle.Yep, I do believe the saddle was sent back to the rep, not to Stubben.

The only reason of which I can think that the rep would not accept the return of the saddle is if it was outside the "return window" or if she felt as though the saddle has damage/excessive wear (but, since she did not even see the saddle, I think we can rule that one out!).

I do feel for the OP, as it is not good to be stuck with such an expensive problem, however, if she does need to sell it herself, she should get most of her money back.

Ok, melting back into the woodwork :D.....

mvp
May. 24, 2010, 09:15 PM
OK, gotcha. It's hard to find all the facts in both long paragraphs.

The part that confused me: Charlee, the rep posting here, said the website explained the "no authorization, no return" policy and I assumed she meant Stubben's website.

So if this is her own, and she won't return phone calls, AND refuses delivery, what should the OP have done?

TheJenners
May. 25, 2010, 02:50 AM
I recognize the email address for the rep. She does indeed have a physical tack store, and a large inventory of Stubben saddles there. Not posting to anyone's defense here, just adding some light to otherwise murky waters.

luckles
May. 25, 2010, 08:30 AM
Interesting all the info that is coming out. Sounds like the problem is the store owner, not Stubben. What is her name and the store? I'll remember never to deal with her.

TheJenners
May. 25, 2010, 01:09 PM
Luckles, she's in my region of the country; I doubt you'll have contact with her.

princessfluffybritches
Nov. 5, 2010, 05:03 PM
To have a fitter come all the way out and sell the OP a saddle that was so obviously ill fitting with problems that ANYONE of us could have seen! And charge $100.00-$150.00 for it? I don't call that bait and switch, I call that "Bait and $crew".

If Stubben provided the name of an authorized fitter, are they not responsible for part of this mess (unless there's a disclaimer)?

I hope that the OP can get pictures to go along with all the emails and phone records, then threaten to take the fitter to court.

PinkChampagnePony
Nov. 5, 2010, 09:31 PM
hmmm. . . . I have a nice, circa 1992 Crump Prix De Saute 16" with a narrow tree and plain flap that I can sell you from the back of my Honda Civic. . . it's lovely, guaranteed to fit your horse AND your femur! :) Only 4250! :)

Just passin' through. . . . .

SnicklefritzG
Nov. 5, 2010, 11:52 PM
Just move the decimal point over one place (or two)