Dec of 05 everyone in approved helmets.

[Smiles]

Well I guess we new it was coming, but all riders will have to wear em not just juniors anymore. http://equisearch.com/columnists/n_jaffer/usae011705/

[Smiles]

Well I guess we new it was coming, but all riders will have to wear em not just juniors anymore. http://equisearch.com/columnists/n_jaffer/usae011705/

[OneonOne]

Whoa. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

[Anyplace Farm]

Doh! Guess I'll put a stop on that Ascot order w/Dover. Since GPAs don't fit, I guess it's an IRH for me. Joy.

[CuriosoJorge]

I find the rule change ridiculous for adults.

If I were actinvely showing a lot, I would plan to switch back to my unapproved hat for the hack just as a matter of principle.

[Silver_Lining]

Thank God!

If you don't care about your own life, at least do it for the people who would be forced to take care of you if you happened to to get badly injured.. for life even.

[zedcadjna]

I have an unapproved no chin strap helmet I love, I have tried the GPA's they dont fit looks like a IRH for me as well...

[lms]

Well, hopefully if this is the case the manufacturers will get to work and design some better looking approved options than what is out in the current market. Cause the GPAs and such are http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[*Tae-Bo*]

I think the adults should have a choice of what to wear on their head. They're old enough to think for themselves. IMO the only good looking approved helmets are the GPAs and the old IRH but I prefer the CO Ascot classic look personally. If only they could make the original clear strapped helmets approved buy making them a tad thicker I think it would be awesome.

[Seven]

It's not that big of deal...it's already been the rule in eventing for quite some time.

No one pitches a fit...they just follow the rules.

[Hucklebug]

Someone will have to start a thread aobut the creative things to do with your patey now that you can't wear it anymore....

Me, I'm going to find some way to work it into the home decor, but it might make a good scoop for potting soil, if I cut the harness off http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Ketch]

It's a big deal if you just got a $650 Patey for Christmas, like my friend did. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Or if you happen to appreciate being an adult and generally having freedom of choice, as I do.

[Madison]

Does anyone know whether USEF or a show's management faced actual lawsuits relating to an adult being injured while wearing a non-approved helmet? I'm curious where the movement for the rule change on adults came from (ie, actual events or just fear of liability). I personally switched to showing in an approved when I bought a green horse, and am now just used to it (I try not to look at my helmet in a mirror http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif), but I can definitely think of some adults I know who will not be happy about this!

[Seven]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ketch:
Or if you happen to appreciate being an adult and generally having freedom of choice, as I do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a very weak argument unless you are also completely oblivious to other rules like speed limits, seat belt laws, smoking laws and stop signs? You don't have a heck of a lot of 'personal choice' when some management body determines that there is a health risk related to your personal choices and has the power to regulate your conduct. You just have to follow the rule or pay the consequences. Again, not a big deal....unless you've just got nothing better to complain about.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

I think it is good. (flamesuit zipped)
Not everyone has enough common sense to protect their head...so it will be mandated. Kinda think of it as in motocross, car racing, rock climbing, etc. and get over it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[melliebay Aefvue Farms Chesapeake Bay]

For those of you who look silly in a GPA, as I do, allow me to recommend the Charles Owen GR8 hat. It is THE MOST COMFORTABLE helmet I have ever owned, and I had an ascot and a patey before. It looks good on almost everyone too. And....at about $100 cheaper than a GPA, it's a deal! I thank god I was wearing mine when a fall led to a hoof in the back of the head. Not even a headache. I shudder to think what I would have felt in my ascot!

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Me, I'm going to find some way to work it into the home decor <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I saw an equestrian themed room at a decorator show house in Charlotte. They had really uber nice galloping boots sitting on a table, a cheap saddle on a rack and a hunt cap with the harness cut off (yes, I picked it up....). They also had a bunch of cheap bridles hanging everywhere. I didn't quite get the boots on the table - though they were loffly leather with sheepskin lining....

But I'm sure you could still ride in your Patey at home?

[Ketch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That's a very weak argument unless you are also completely oblivious to other rules like speed limits, seat belt laws, smoking laws and stop signs? You don't have a heck of a lot of 'personal choice' when some management body determines that there is a health risk related to your personal choices and has the power to regulate your conduct. You just have to follow the rule or pay the consequences. Again, not a big deal....unless you've just got nothing better to complain about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

None of those deal with personal preferences regarding apparel. And that's as far as I am going with this; "helmet nazis" on this board are historically impossible to reason with, and frankly, since it is apparently already mandated, it is not worth my effort.

To me, though, it is a choice as far as what I want to wear. Like rust vs. beige. You can say it is a matter of safety, but to me it is a matter of choice pure and simple. We are allowed to wear canary vests instead of safety vests in the classics; why is this any different?

[Parminch]

I know that we were told at the NCHJA meeting that they were in talks with the hat companies (Charles Owen was mentioned specifically) about the fit. Apparently the hat makers have been told that once this got passed that in the next year they are going to have to come up with more varied sizes and fits ... long oval eg... and that the companies are aware that there will more demand soon too.
Hopefully Equitalk will log on to this thread and let us know more.
It does not go into effect until Dec 05 so you have some time to research different types and styles and find one that fits.
Guess I am lucky... my GPA is very comfortable and fits great. (if only they would make something to cover the chin strap that works better and is more comfy!)
There is also discussion of the rule on the USEF thread.

[Silver_Lining]

Like I said, it is not just about you, that is quite the selfish way to look at it. Besides hurting the oens you love

think about the people who will be forced to care for you! Not very fair because you wanted to be "fashionable."

[jordiensyd]

Good for them!

[Silver_Lining]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tyedyecommando:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silver_Lining:
Like I said, it is not just about you, that is quite the selfish way to look at it. Besides hurting the oens you love

think about the people who will be forced to care for you! Not very fair because you wanted to be "fashionable." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Arguements like this are not going to prove a point to anyone. In fact it's making me want to act out. Come up with something meaningful and educational to say to people, not trying to play a guilt card. It's just not effective. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its not about guilt, its about common sense... but hey if they want to be a burden, go ahead. The fact that it was unecessary though.. that really is inexcusable. Either way, its not like it will control what you do on your own private property, just what you do at events. if they don't want you to bust your head open on their property, its their right.

Anyway, I refused to wear approved for a long time, but it really is the mature thing to do. I'm not judging anyone, but I hope some of you really think about what your actions can mean, not just for youself, but for others.

Its not like I would be tellign you what to do otherwise. We "helmet nazis" honestly care.

[Seven]

I am far from a helmet nazi...but if it makes you feel better, have at it. In any event, the analogy I provided is fairly simple logic having nothing to do with 'items of apparel' but rather with some governing body making safety rules.

There is stop signs near my house that I find ridiculous and not protecting anyone. So, do I stop every single time? Nope. But I won't complain if I get caught, either...my choice to roll through a useless stop sign and I'll pay the fine when I get stopped. No one, however, cares whether I think the stop sign is a good idea or not, apparently my town decided, for safety reasons, that it is. Are they preventing me from making a personal (and in my opinion http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif much wiser) decision on that particular stretch of road? Absolutely.

You think the helmet is apparel. The USEF does not. Your choice is now if you want to continue to jump a shows, you wear one. Or don't -- still a choice, just one you don't like the consequences attached.

[Ketch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You think the helmet is apparel. The USEF does not. Your choice is now if you want to continue to jump a shows, you wear one. Or don't -- still a choice, just one you don't like the consequences attached. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, exactly my point. Of course I'll where one; I don't like the fact that that I no longer have the choice to refuse to wear one without any consequences.

[Silver_Lining]

I do not think it should be legal or illegal, I am for less government all together:P

On the other hand, when it is some one's horse show or event, I think they have every right to tell you what you can do on their property.

When I say i think people should wear helmets, it should be a personal decision. I just hope people see that the effects are not only felt by you, but by others as well.

[2ndyrgal]

I had cranial surgery as a small child. As a result of this, my head is really a true elongated oval, and dead flat on the sides. When I was a child rider, my father put my helmet in a vise for a couple of weeks in order to make it fit safely with no "gaps" on the sides of my head. After wearing and buying 4 different expensive approved helmets, at the Spring show in KY, I discovered Patey. It took them 2 days to get the helmet to fit to the suction-like, blinding headache level. I have had a couple of horrendous falls, with no damage to the helmet and NO damage to my head. Even with no chinstrap, it has remained safely on my head thru hunts, shows and involuntary dismounts. Sometimes, there is no such thing as an off the shelf helmet that will fit correctly. Believe me, price is no object, hence the Patey. Perhaps someone should instead of making it mandatory in the show ring for adults, just insist on all of us who do not choose to protect ourselves with an approved helmet, they should simply make us sign some sort of "yes I am an idiot" waiver, and pre pay a fine that would go to either the governing body of horse shows or to research for head injuries. And at the risk of offending many, I may not wear an approved helmet, but I am an organ donor.

[Seven]

And that was my point, Ketch...that there are a great many thing in life that you do not have a personal choice about....so your argument was weak. Just trying to offer a little perspective.

Whatever...I'm sure in a couple of years most won't remember (or care) what it was like before this rule was set.

[Kirsten]

I second the recommendation for the GR8. Very comfortable. The GPA doesn't come anywhere close to fitting me. The CO Hampton is what I bought to show in.

[Ketch]

No, actually your argument was weak, that a helmet is like a stop sign. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif But like I said, I have no desire to argue with the helmet brigade. And I actually mean that this time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Hunter88]

i think its a good idea, being a junior, ive always worn one, but even when i turn 18 im gonna stick with my approved! I also reccomend the Charles Owen hampton hat http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But as for taking away personal freedoms, I think this is ridiculous, because it is the USEF's choice to make their events with approved helmets. If it means that much to you, dont show

[1-800-Dial-A-Distance]

Now granted, I like my unapproved. But if everyone else has to get headaches from the ill fitting GPA's and such then I'll suck it up and do so too. But this argument <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> That's a very weak argument unless you are also completely oblivious to other rules like speed limits, seat belt laws, smoking laws and stop signs? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> is not valid. Speed limits, smoking laws and stop signs prevent you from killing other people. Seat belt laws mean that if I'm wearing my seat belt and someone hits me, they get charged with bad driving, if I'm not wearing my seat belt and they hit me, they get charged with involuntary manslaughter. So I do think that as an adult, if it doesn't hurt anyone else, it's my choice. I won't argue about the safety and as I said, I'll wear the darn thing and shut up about it because it's a good idea and I don't want to die of a head injury, but that doesn't change the fact that the USEF is starting to remind me of the federal government that I'm so afraid of.

1-800 (in probably the most controversial stance I've ever taken on anything on the boards,merely out of the fact that GPA's and IRH's don't fit my head well)

[khobstetter]

If you have followed my posts on any of the other "Helmet" threads you know I am sooooooooo against the ASTM helmets that do not "fit" right!!! I also believe adults should be able to make their own choice.

I went to the USHJA Convention and stood up and was heard about this proposal.

The USHJA did NOT approve the proposal in November because there was a total lack of statistics available to us at that meeting.

In Louisville last week I went to both the Safety Committee meeting AND the Safety Seminar/Forum.

There is now available a large amount of statistics that back up the proposal. They had numbers and details of actual injuries.....it was indeed a very thorough presentaion and a lengthy Committee meeting with all the discussion.

It now comes down to one simple thing....liability!

The organization has been put on liability "notice" that there is a significant risk of severe head injury to riders (jumping or on the flat) who do not wear ASTM Helmets. A fall from 2 feet can cause severe injury and we usually fall from 8'+ and with a hugh amount of "tork" and motion...and we fall into things.

If the organization does NOT take positive action..they are opening themselves up to liability that falls under "negligence".

THEREFORE...I am now going to make sure ALL my riders find and buy the helmets...do I personally agree? Has my stance changed?? NO NO NO NO NO..

BUT I UNDERSTAND AND AM 100% SUPPORTIVE OF THE NEW RULE!

[Equitalk]

just wanted to clarify some points regarding rule changes passed recently at the USEF Convention in Louisville, KY.

The New helmet rule was unanimous in it's passing with the new USEF Board of Director's

The rule change regarding headgear is as follows: Helmets meeting or exceeding the current ASTM-SEI standard will be required when in the act of jumping. This will apply to all warm-up and competition rings. This rule also requires that the chin strap/harness be securely fastened. This rule is very similar to the FEI rule, except they use a different testing name in Europe. This rule will go into effect DEC 1, 2005.

All manufacturers of ASTM-SEI helmets were notified prior to the USEF convention that this rule change was pending. All known manufacturers will be sent a letter notifying them of the new rule. We will ask them to continue their commitments to enhancing the already proven standard of safety we have decided to follow. In addition we will ask for their renewed pledge to work with retailers on proper fitting techniques. It was obvious by Roy Bureks participation at the Federations convention that Manufacturer Charles Owen is ready to meet these commitments.

The reason the helmet is not being required while on the flat is due to the accident injury reports and/or other available statistics the safety committee researched. We came to the unanimous decision that there is an increased risk of injury while in the act of jumping.

What facts we do know in the Untied States:

1) The most common reason among riders for hospital admission and/or death, are head injuries.

2) A fall from 2 feet can cause permanent brain damage.

3) A human skull can be shattered by an impact at 3-4 Mph. A horse's average speed while at the hand gallop is 20-22 Mph.

4) According to the NESS the most likely age group for equestrian injuries are adults 25-44 years of age, and the majority are female.

5) A rider who has sustained one head injury is 40% more likely to suffer a second and more serious one.

6) An estimated 40-60 percentage of horse professionals do not have major medical insurance.

7) The average cost of treating an acute head injury is $25,000 per day. Lifetime extended care costs can exceed $3 Million. Society must assume the burden if the patient is not insured. This causes a hardship to us all.

8) The British Equestrian Society's hospital admission rate for equestrians fell 46% when they adopted a similar standard.

9) In 2002 Senior USEF members accounted for 55% of all accidents.

10) In a study done in Great Britain in 1982 20% of riders used an approved type helmet, and 20% accidents were serious head injuries. In 2002 there was a study done showing 80% of riders using the approved helmet, and the head injury rate was now 5%. A significant change.

11) In 2003 USEF Hunter & Jumper competitor's accounted for over 55% of the Federations head injuries reported. Eventing accounted for just 25%, and the rest were distributed equally amongst all the other breeds and disciplines as follows:

Morgan- 1%
ASB- 1%
Andalusian- 1%
Dressage- 6%
Driving- 1%
Arabian- 9%
Not reported- 7%

12) A riders forward position on top of a horse while over a jump places them in a prone position for forward ejection. This is much less apparent in riders on the flat. Photograph's can easily demonstrate this.

These 12 items stated above are just some of the facts and figures that the safety committee reviewed in coming to a determination about this rule change. Much more data review and discussion took place amongst committee members in confidential meetings. Some of the data reviewed is not available for public inspection due to confidentiality requirements, Federal HIPPA laws, and various other issues that required confidence and discretion.

I would also like to add the following regarding the helmet rule:

The USEF Safety Committee has seen NO accident/injury reports attesting to the rumors claiming numerous accidents caused by chin straps.

We have seen NO accident/injury reports attributing the brims on ASTM-SEI helmets to causing injuries.

We have seen data and photos that show the brims on non-approved helmets that contributed to the severity of an accident.

Freedom of choice is one argument. You can compete without the ASTM-SEI standard, just not at USEF events after DEC 1, 2005. This Federation has taken on the role of National Governing Body for all Equestrian sport in the United States, and part of that responsibility is to take responsibility for the safety standards and equipment used by federation members at federation events.

Please refer to bylaw 501-22 in the USEF rule book and you will understand the responsibilities of the Federation and it's safety committee.

I would like to thank all of the Director's and members of the Federation and of the USHJA who in voting for this rule change have committed themselves to protecting the best interests of the members and future of our sport. In addition I urge you to personally make a pledge to continue your adaptability and open thought process's as new data and technology become available to equestrian sports. David O'Connor planted the seed for the federations commitment in his keynote speech in Los Angeles. It is time for us to grow the tree, and stand strong with our commitments as National Governing Body for all Equestrians sports.

Please understand that event the ASTM-SEI standard does not prevent all risk of unforeseeable injury and/or death, but we can reduce the risk of injury by utilizing new technology.

Please don't hesitate to share your thoughts with me via email.

Best wishes,

Andrew C Ellis, Chairman
USEF Safety Committee
PO Box 2138
Southern Pines, NC 28388
910-692-5230 (H)
919-637-2958 (C)
910-692-5490 (F)

[Madison]

Equitalk, thanks for sharing the data and reasoning. When you say "meeting or exceeding the current ASTM-SEI standard", what year's standard does that refer to? For example, could people who have several-years-old approved helmets be in violation of the rule because the helmet only met an earlier ASTM standard?

[alottatrot]

There's nothing any of us can do about it now, so why is there such a huge debate going on right now? Wear it and jump, or don't wear it and don't jump. It's that easy.

Gosh, I look absolutely ridiculous in my approved helmet, but I wear it because I don't want to ever think "if i'd only had a safer helmet."

[Indielo]

I hate that fact that riders had to wait till they were 18 to wear an un-approved helmet and now everyone has to wear them? Why didn't they just do this in the beginning if they planned on changing their rules? I'm not in any way saying that wearing an un-approved is "cool" or "safe". I just think it's ridiculous, riders should be able to choose for themselves. This new rule change kinda shocks me alittle for some reason.

JP

[Horseshowaddict]

This is honestly a good direction to be going in. Now the company's will be really into making their helmets even more attractive, while still being safe and functional. I can't wait to see the first "custom" approved helmet!

[Tha Ridge]

YUCK!

[Seven]

I guess logic will always be nebulous to some...but I'm done here too. Doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

bekkarae, I don't think you'll ever see a 'custom' certified helmet...others can tell you for sure but I think that the certified helmets must be produced along the same guidelines in order to qualify for ASTM certification. That's why Patey's could never be certified, no matter how safe they may be, since each one is custom.

[JennyM]

Wow I didnt even know that adults had the choice to not wear one in the first place(at hunter jumper shows that is) every show I have been to everyone has been wearing one of some sort or type! I am still under 18 so I guess it dont really matter to me but I think that you should have the choice of wither or not to wear one what is the government gonna say next that we must wear seat belts when riding a horse to. I am in 4-H and in the state of iowa all 4-H ers have to wear helmets when at a 4-H event. But we might as well not wear um cause none fit right no one has um tightined up to wear they would be doin any good. One time there was a girl practiceing hunter jumper her horse stopped before the jump she flew over the jump and her helmet flew off her head! Lot of good that is doin. Then when we go and ride a mechanical bull for our activity we dont wear a helmet whats with that it is guaented to buck and more than likely we arent fallin off our horses ever time we get on um. I guess I think we should be able to make the choice to be dumb and not wear one or to wear one. Thats just what I think!(dont get lid lockers they are the dumbest most un comfertable helmet I have ever put on my head)

[vprider]

Regarding the appearance issue: I know I'll probably be flamed for this, but it seems to me that the majority of adults/amateurs are already wearing approved helmets. So much so that the appearance of a non-approved helmet, particularly in such divisions, is somewhat remarkable.

[Equitalk]

just wanted to clarify some points regarding rule changes passed recently at the USEF Convention in Louisville, KY.

The New helmet rule was unanimous in it's passing with the new USEF Board of Director's

The rule change regarding headgear is as follows: Helmets meeting or exceeding the current ASTM-SEI standard will be required when in the act of jumping. This will apply to all warm-up and competition rings. This rule also requires that the chin strap/harness be securely fastened. This rule is very similar to the FEI rule, except they use a different testing name in Europe. This rule will go into effect DEC 1, 2005.

All manufacturers of ASTM-SEI helmets were notified prior to the USEF convention that this rule change was pending. All known manufacturers will be sent a letter notifying them of the new rule. We will ask them to continue their commitments to enhancing the already proven standard of safety we have decided to follow. In addition we will ask for their renewed pledge to work with retailers on proper fitting techniques. It was obvious by Roy Bureks participation at the Federations convention that Manufacturer Charles Owen is ready to meet these commitments.

The reason the helmet is not being required while on the flat is due to the accident injury reports and/or other available statistics the safety committee researched. We came to the unanimous decision that there is an increased risk of injury while in the act of jumping.

What facts we do know in the Untied States:

1) The most common reason among riders for hospital admission and/or death, are head injuries.

2) A fall from 2 feet can cause permanent brain damage.

3) A human skull can be shattered by an impact at 3-4 Mph. A horse's average speed while at the hand gallop is 20-22 Mph.

4) According to the NESS the most likely age group for equestrian injuries are adults 25-44 years of age, and the majority are female.

5) A rider who has sustained one head injury is 40% more likely to suffer a second and more serious one.

6) An estimated 40-60 percentage of horse professionals do not have major medical insurance.

7) The average cost of treating an acute head injury is $25,000 per day. Lifetime extended care costs can exceed $3 Million. Society must assume the burden if the patient is not insured. This causes a hardship to us all.

8) The British Equestrian Society's hospital admission rate for equestrians fell 46% when they adopted a similar standard.

9) In 2002 Senior USEF members accounted for 55% of all accidents.

10) In a study done in Great Britain in 1982 20% of riders used an approved type helmet, and 20% accidents were serious head injuries. In 2002 there was a study done showing 80% of riders using the approved helmet, and the head injury rate was now 5%. A significant change.

11) In 2003 USEF Hunter & Jumper competitor's accounted for over 55% of the Federations head injuries reported. Eventing accounted for just 25%, and the rest were distributed equally amongst all the other breeds and disciplines as follows:

Morgan- 1%
ASB- 1%
Andalusian- 1%
Dressage- 6%
Driving- 1%
Arabian- 9%
Not reported- 7%

12) A riders forward position on top of a horse while over a jump places them in a prone position for forward ejection. This is much less apparent in riders on the flat. Photograph's can easily demonstrate this.

These 12 items stated above are just some of the facts and figures that the safety committee reviewed in coming to a determination about this rule change. Much more data review and discussion took place amongst committee members in confidential meetings. Some of the data reviewed is not available for public inspection due to confidentiality requirements, Federal HIPPA laws, and various other issues that required confidence and discretion.

I would also like to add the following regarding the helmet rule:

The USEF Safety Committee has seen NO accident/injury reports attesting to the rumors claiming numerous accidents caused by chin straps.

We have seen NO accident/injury reports attributing the brims on ASTM-SEI helmets to causing injuries.

We have seen data and photos that show the brims on non-approved helmets that contributed to the severity of an accident.

Freedom of choice is one argument. You can compete without the ASTM-SEI standard, just not at USEF events after DEC 1, 2005. This Federation has taken on the role of National Governing Body for all Equestrian sport in the United States, and part of that responsibility is to take responsibility for the safety standards and equipment used by federation members at federation events.

Please refer to bylaw 501-22 in the USEF rule book and you will understand the responsibilities of the Federation and it's safety committee.

I would like to thank all of the Director's and members of the Federation and of the USHJA who in voting for this rule change have committed themselves to protecting the best interests of the members and future of our sport. In addition I urge you to personally make a pledge to continue your adaptability and open thought process's as new data and technology become available to equestrian sports. David O'Connor planted the seed for the federations commitment in his keynote speech in Los Angeles. It is time for us to grow the tree, and stand strong with our commitments as National Governing Body for all Equestrians sports.

Please understand that event the ASTM-SEI standard does not prevent all risk of unforeseeable injury and/or death, but we can reduce the risk of injury by utilizing new technology.

Please don't hesitate to share your thoughts with me via email.

Best wishes,

Andrew C Ellis, Chairman
USEF Safety Committee
PO Box 2138
Southern Pines, NC 28388
910-692-5230 (H)
919-637-2958 (C)
910-692-5490 (F)

[reppy]

I dont mean to hijack this thread but I have a question. I hope this doesn't sound too dumb. Do un-approved helmets offer no protection? What exactly is the difference between an approved and unapproved helmet?

[Equitalk]

Yes Reepy

un-approved helmets offer little protection, and they state this clearly in their labels.

Samples of the approved were available at the convention. We had several cut in half to show the difference.

The difference can be compared to how cars were designed in the early 1970's. Large solid steel cars with NO crumple zones. Now the cars are all made with crumple zones to absorb impact. Much like the cars these helmets have energy absorbing materials inside that can greatly reduce risk of injury. Some new helmets even have Titanium rings inside to aid in preventing crushing injuries.

The ASTM-SEI is the highest standard of approval and manufacturing in the USA.

The Approved helmet has shown a noticeable reduction in the number of head injuries, both in the US and in other countries.

[reppy]

Ok thanks for clearing that up http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[PiedPiper]

Okay, I am probably going to get flamed for this but what is up with your guy's heads that you can't find an approved that fits!?! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif There are so many choices and I don't think I have heard of this many people having a problem in eventing.

Seriously folks the eventers have had to do this for years and we are surviving and all. From the liability standpoint I am quite surprised this wasn't passed years ago. This country is sue happy and people rocketing over jumps on animals is just asking for injuries especially to the head.

See look at the positive, now you guys can be cool like the eventers and wear the skull caps with the unlimited covers, bwahahahahahahaha!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[1-800-Dial-A-Distance]

Equitalk -


This may be up your ally. Any idea on how we're going to force manufacturers to make changes in the helmets? Twice I tried to ditch my International and get an approved helmet. Both were fitted by competent tack shops. Both agreed that this was not a great fit, but the best that could be done in the approved category. In both cases, one a Troxel and one a GPA, I had a bad fall with the helmet, in both cases the helmet fell over my face before I hit the ground.

In the case of the GPA it wasn't a big deal because I landed on my back and my head never touched the ground, scared me for a second because I couldn't see where the horse was with the helmet over my face, but not a big deal, except that had I landed otherwise, I wouldn't have had any protection. The Troxel was a bit worse because I got dragged and did some severe damage (fortunately only to my skin and not my brain) because it fell over my face before I hit the ground.

In both cases these helmets were fitted as well as they could be. How do we force the manufacturers to make other fits? If they don't do so by next year what do people like me do? I'm not a fan of unapproved, I'm less of a fan of being told what I can and can't do with my own body, but that's another story, but I'm not comfortable knowing that a helmet is 100X safer but it won't stay on my head...

Any ideas how this will work and what will happen this time next year if that particular situation has not been handled?

thanks

1-800

p.s. if anyone else has ideas, let me know

[radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA]

1-800 have had similar problems with the approveds. GPA did not fit, crushed forhead leaving large mark and headache. Got the International, fit well for couple of months, padding crushed down and moved badly all over my head. Am now waiting for the GPA Textium to come in. Its foam has been made to fit long ovals. The shell is the same as the reg GPA, but the lining, which you can see, has beed formed differently. Have my fingers crossed.

[horselesswonder]

IME, Troxels and GPAs tend to fit folks with round heads. If you have a more oval head, Charles Owens helmets work better. International's GPA knockoff also comes in a long oval.

Honestly, I spent many years working at a tack shop and never encountered anyone unfittable. And that was when there were less helmet options than there are now. I think one thing that folks forget is that the chin straps must be snug. It's my understanding that unlike unapproved helmets, the chin strap on an approved helmet is an integral part of the system.

[pooh]

ok. I'm going to ask a goofy question http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif- how do you know fi you bough a helmet 3-5 years ago if it meets the current standards. Nothavign my helmet in front of me- is there something printed on teh label??? Or is there a certain period of time after that we should just figure that the helmet isn't up to standards.

[DMK]

Since this thread seems to be filled with more than its fair share of extremists on both ends, I'll just chime in...

1. I am the queen of the ballcap. It's the way I grew up. Many of you probably didn't do half the bat shit crazy stuff I did on horses in my youth. Amazing that I survived. More amazing that the horses did as well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

2. I know I should ride in a helmet. Sometimes I even force myself to do it (more now than a few years ago, whihc was pretty much "Not unless a judge is watching!"). I know I should have an approved helmet. I know far better than 99% of the population what the costs are associated with head injuries. And yet I don't have an approved. Helmet Nazis say what you will. Them's are the facts.

3. And yet, when it comes to this new rule, I simply don't care. It is just not that important to me. Approved required? Whatever. I'm just grateful I learned of it before I replaced my now Aaron Vale-like torn faded unnapproved helmet with a new unnapproved helmet. Now if they outlawed Big D bits? Then we would have to talk...

What do you bet I represent the masses? (except for the part where I did totally INSANE things on horses as a kid, most of which didn't involve saddles or bridles... or even broke horses)

[JennyM]

I wear a helmet only when I have to! I know I should wear one but mine hurts my head and so I dont wear it.

I guess I think it should be the persons choice but they anit sayin that ya have to wear um all the time do like I do when ya get to the ring put it on and when ya leave the ring take it off just make the people happy.

[melliebay Aefvue Farms Chesapeake Bay]

I happened to be one of the unfortunate people outside the schooling ring in Ocala a few years ago when Brian Jones was killed in a riding accident. If my memory serves me correctly, he was riding in a helmet (unapproved) without a harness. The horse he was schooling over fences....2'6" at the highest rushed after the jumps. At one point he pulled the horse up abruptly to try to keep it from rushing. The horse got high headed, sort of reared (but in reality it's front legs just came off the ground a foot or two...IMO not a *bad* rear), and knocked Brian's helmet off. He kept riding, did something similar after the next jump, ended up falling, fracturing his skull and unfortunately it was a fatal accident. It can happen at anytime, to anyone. While I agree that we should all be free to make our own choices, I also feel so sorry for all the people who witnessed that unfortunate accident which most likely would have been prevented had he been wearing an approved helmet, or at the least one with a harness. I loved my patey before that, now I never wear a helmet without a harness and for the last 2 years will no SIT on a horse without my approved helmet on. Life is too short to take chances. How would you feel if a child saw you take a fall and be fatally injured or forever rendered a vegetable out of vanity and "comfort". I think many of us confuse a helmet not being comfortable with a helmet being ugly. You may continue to ride in whatever you choose at home, but for the 2 minutes you are jumping a course or the 5 minutes in a flat class, humor the rest of us who are not only concerned with our safety, but yours as well.

[CBoylen]

I'm with you DMK.
I'm happy for Andrew, because he's worked hard for this.
I think it's the right step for the Federation.

On a personal level, I don't really give a damn. I basically just keep my hat to show or for the rare occasions where I think I'm more likely to fall off than stay on. So, if it has to be an approved to show, then I will have an approved hat.
I needed a new hat soon anyway, so I'm glad I know now before I replaced my overpriced unapproved with a non-faded, unrained-upon similar model.

[Laura Reed]

Doesn't any one care about their brain matter? We should be APPLAUDING the USEF Safety Committee for their hard work and research that has resulted in mandatory headgear rules. Get on board! Care about your skull and what's beneath it. That is, if you care.

[Renn/aissance]

Personally, I don't see what the big deal is. You can still wear your unapproved at home. If it bothers you so much, quit showing. No one's forcing you.

For those with a long oval or otherwise oddly shaped head (and I have both- in all seriousness, I was dropped on the head as a child) the International ATH does really fit well. I've ridden in almost every helmet on the market, and this is the only one that fits me. I've taken several potentially nasty falls in it and it has not moved. I've been hit in the head by a horse's knee as he leapt across a stream and knocked over by that impact, and it didn't move. I have no doubt that any other helmet, even another long oval made by International (of which I have owned two) would have shifted in at least one of those accidents and that the last would have resulted in a concussion. My brain is my most prized possession and I'd rather wear something to protect it than wear a cup which will catch it as it oozes from my fractured skull.

Sure, approved helmets aren't pretty, but you're not the ones looking at your helmets. Grin and bear it.

[slainte!]

ew.

[Silver_Lining]

my thoughts exactly when I see your braine smeared ont he show grounds ;P

[daytimedrama]

damn I had a feeeling this rule would follow me to the Adults.
I don't like my approved helmet becasue it doesn't fit me well, I too get headaches, but I have a round head and the GPA and ATH give me headaches.

I guess if I do show I'll have to find a new helmet. Good thing I didn't buy a new Charles Owen Ascot for christmas.

I think it will be interesting to see the reaction from the Professionals, yes many do wear approveds now but still many do not.

[SED]

I get a kick out of this discussion. Lots of adults talk about the poor fit of "approved" helmets. Yet my daughter boards with a barn full of juniors who ONLY wear approved, and not one of them complains. So I suspect that this issue will go away quickly as people get used to the idea.

Kudos to the committees for putting safety first.

[KristenB]

It seems like a lot of people think that GPAs and IRHs are the only approved helmets. For those who have long oval heads (like me), the only helmet I've found so far that fits me well is the Troxel Grand Prix Gold (Series II) in the long oval. AND I wear the biggest size available http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. How's that for a hard to fit head http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Weatherford]

People who complain about the fit must realize several things:

First, there are MANY manufacturers and MANY styles now - NOT just the GPA and Troxel... Long oval? The Charles Owen models (yes, that is plural) are great - as are some of the Internationals (including its GPA copy - which is a much better fit for many people, including me! If yu check out the SEI website, there is a list of all the approved helmets. Be sure to go to more than one tack shop!!

If fit is a real problem, well maybe we need to go back to wearing our hair DOWN and in hairnets (oh, the fashion police will be horrified http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) OR in single braids flipped under in the same way as our horses' braids or in those nasty ponytails http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (Which could be make neater with some creativity.) Regardless, it sounds as if some things are going to have to change in people's attitudes and styles to help make this rule a success.

[Mav226]

What's next, vests? Bubble wrap? Steel-toed boots to keep our toes from being damaged? Please. This is pathetic. I don't care what type of helmet you wear. But I sure don't want any committee telling me what to put on my head.

Do they all drive the speed limit too?

[pleased-as-punch2800]

Question?
The rule change is not effective until Dec of 2005? Can we wear our unapproved for the rest of this show season?

[YankeeTurnedHillbilly]

Here is something to ponder....why does it matter how "ugly" everyone looks in the approved helmets since after December 2005, EVERYONE will look the same.......

I was a member of the ball cap riding clique forever, only wore my unapproved helmet when I was showing. When my tried and true unapproved helmet took its last breath, I decided to bite the bullet and get a brain bucket. The only think I fit in is an International, and it looks like a freaking hot air balloon on my head.......but you know what.......when I stand at the shows now, what I notice is that the folks in the UNAPPROVED helmets are the ones I notice now, not the rest of us walking around in our brain buckets.

[Magnolia]

If the GPA doesn't fit there are a lot of other styles and manufacturers. I have a long oval international that isn't stylish, but it fits. They seem to have a wide range of styles to choose from.

It is a little silly to tell adults they must wear a helmet, but then they tell us to wear seatbelts as well.

It sure took a long time for all of this to come to fruition. I remember that in the late '80's we thought they were going to require all juniors to wear "approved" helmets - oh, were they ugly! It didn't pass for a long time. I wonder what the statistics are that garnered this new rule - what are the circumstances that have changed? Has the rule made the sport noticeably safer for juniors?

[Giddy-up]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Equitalk:
6) An estimated 40-60 percentage of horse professionals do not have major medical insurance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you say "horse professionals", are you talking all riders in general or just the pros??

[BB]

pooh - I think the label inside your helmet (or the box?) should have an ASTM standard on it, telling you which code it satisfied when the helmet was manufactured. I'm sure the USEF website lists the current standard, so you can probably check and see if your helmet qualifies.

[LMH]

Good Gawd-what's next? Am I going to have to wear elbow and knee pads to ride my bike down the street?

[Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender]

This worries me. We all are aware of the dangers of riding...history has shown us tragedy after tragedy. I think all that the USEF is trying to do is ensure our safety..and if that comes with wearing an approved helmet that may make you look like a mushroom head..well then so be it. Leave fashion up to the ribbon belts and lined coats..I'm all about saving the small amount of brain I do have in my skull http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BB:
pooh - I think the label inside your helmet (or the box?) should have an ASTM standard on it, telling you which code it satisfied when the helmet was manufactured. I'm sure the USEF website lists the current standard, so you can probably check and see if your helmet qualifies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The USEF passed a rule change (last year? Year before?) saying that as long as it was approved by SEI/ASTM at the time it was manufactured, and has the sticker/tag to demonstrate that, it doesn't matter if it passes the MOST RECENT standard, or if it is currently on the list on the SEI/ASTM web site.

[Janet]

Weatherford said:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If fit is a real problem, well maybe we need to go back to wearing our hair DOWN and in hairnets (oh, the fashion police will be horrified ) OR in single braids flipped under in the same way as our horses' braids or in those nasty ponytails (Which could be make neater with some creativity.) Regardless, it sounds as if some things are going to have to change in people's attitudes and styles to help make this rule a success. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hear! hear!

[Ketch]

All of you who made the suggestion to just quit showing: great idea! I'll just turn my nice hunter into a trail horse, use my collection of show clothes for making political statements (wouldn't my GP coat look great spray-painted with "Free Tibet" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) and ask for a refund on the countless lessons, board bills and training rides I have accrued over the years. Very practical. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It's just not that simple. When you have spent your whole life focusing on and preparing for the show ring, it doesn't make sense to just drop the habit and take up vaulting or something. There is just too much invested, and o course I won't give up showing and will be forced to wear the approved. It's just frustrating not to have much of a choice in what I wear. As someone stated previously, where does the line get drawn? Are they going to require tipperary vests in the near future?

[Capt.Jack'sGirl]

I really don't think it's that painful an issue. Granted, I just recently became an adult, so I'm used to wearing approved helmets, but really, to fuss so much?

I can understand people wanting freedom of choice, and feeling ridiculous that as adults, they are being mandated to, but as a member of the showing community, there are thousands of other rules we follow without even thinking, some of which have little to no relevance on modern showing, but we still follow them.

Nobody has a problem making kids wear approved hats. Why should adults be different? Are they fall-proof? Are their lives worth less? Adults or children, we're all riders here, and I think it's fair to make safety, and the concern for safety, a rule for everyone.

[ishmael]

One of my favorite GM comments is the old "if you're serious about riding, you will cut off your hair." And here when I was younger I thought that I had to grow out my bangs to cover my ears properly...

[ise@ssl]

I always find it interesting that people are opposed to safety changes like this just REFUSE to see that it head/brain injuries from riding accidents affects everyone in the industry.

When you go to the Emergency Room - what the injury is and how it occurred goes into data which is collected by national insurance companies. These statistics affect the rates we ALL have to pay for insurance if we have horse businesses. In fact if the numbers are high enough it can affect the premiums you would pay on life insurance or other coverage.

High risk sports have adapted gear and apparel across the board as materials and design have improved AND when it's been a harsh reality that not making changes was contributing to severe injury or in some instances DEATH.

I don't see how wearing an ASTM helmet has a negative affect on ANYONE'S riding. What it can have an affect on is assuring an injury to your head/brain will be reduced. As I've stated before you CAN ride without a helmet but you CANNOT ride without a brain. I love my GPA!

[Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ishmael:
One of my favorite GM comments is the old "if you're serious about riding, you will cut off your hair." And here when I was younger I thought that I had to grow out my bangs to cover my ears properly... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That makes me laugh...although I look better in short hair, I keep it long in order to tuck it up under my helmet...short hair never worked for me and helmets http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[findeight]

When I was in the emergency room with my broken arm last November, I had to answer a series of questions as they filled out the forms for their own records and for my insurance company.

How did it happen? What kind of surface did you fall on? From approxamately what height? What safety gear were you wearing??? and then..

Was the helmet APPROVED?

After the paperwork on my short term disability leave was processed and approved, about 2 weeks, I got a phone call from a second insurance company that handles those claims for my employer. They had a few questions about the accident.
WAS I WEARING AN APPROVED HELMET???

So if the emergency room staff had to ask about it for my primary health care provider and the secondary insurance company also asked about it...yah think there's something to it???

I wonder if they would have been so generous with my benefits if it would have been a head injury in a non approved helmet?? And I wonder if you'd get dropped for it if you had a privately paid policy-just like you can get dropped if you bang yourself up in a car wreck without seat belts (they'll pay but then cancel you in most states).

So this really is not something out of the blue just to harass you.

[Lucassb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>These 12 items stated above are just some of the facts and figures that the safety committee reviewed in coming to a determination about this rule change. Much more data review and discussion took place amongst committee members in confidential meetings. Some of the data reviewed is not available for public inspection due to confidentiality requirements, Federal HIPPA laws, and various other issues that required confidence and discretion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someone please tell Mr. Ellis that probably it is not a good idea to tell anyone that the USEF (in committee form or otherwise,) viewed information that would be protected under HIPAA. (Not HIPPA)

Since that would be individually identifiable medical information disclosed to parties not involved directly in the treatment (or payment for treatment) provided to a patient, that would be a prohibited disclosure of information. In this respect, the USEF committee members are no different than the rest of the general public.

[Allie Pal]

I think that it is great the USEF has made the wearing of approved helmuts mandatory! Safety first, always.

[NumberTenOx]

I have a small role in putting on a show. Just want to give that perspective.

One of my nightmares every year is that we will have a serious injury or worse. Look past the personal feelings of loss, the feelings of guilt (could I have done anything to prevent it?), the awful job of dealing with a grieving and/or angry family.

And think about the publicity. Will this hurt my show? Can I do this again next year (physically, mentally, fiscally)? Will my insurance go up? Will this affect the attitudes of local athletes, parents, spectators?

For pete's sake, I would make everyone mounted at my show wear an approved helmet if I could. It's an incredibly small but proven thing to do to avoid a disaster.

Look at other sports: auto racing, hydroplane racing, football. These sports have all dramatically increased the use of safety equipment - for the reasons I've stated above.

[Thoroughbred1201]

Although this is an issue that is probably beat to death, I'm going to add my 2 cents!

I work as a healthcare accountant, and take it from me, the costs involved in a head injury are staggering. A head injury caused by a fall from a horse can literally (and remarkably easily) also cause bankruptcy. If wearing an approved helmet allows the insurance companies to pay out, and not wearing an approved helmet gives them an opportunity to deny, I think I'll wear an approved helment. I'd like to keep giving my horse a happy home!

[findeight]

I was asked in the emergency room and was told that info would be anonymously recorded in the data bank.

So that is probably what the USEF was referring to. No violation of privacy rights.

BUT this info is being taken, in my case twice. It does exsist.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ketch:
All of you who made the suggestion to just quit showing: great idea! I'll just turn my nice hunter into a trail horse, use my collection of show clothes for making political statements (wouldn't my GP coat look great spray-painted with "Free Tibet" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) and ask for a refund on the countless lessons, board bills and training rides I have accrued over the years. Very practical. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It's just not that simple. When you have spent your whole life focusing on and preparing for the show ring, it doesn't make sense to just drop the habit and take up vaulting or something. There is just too much invested, and o course I won't give up showing and will be forced to wear the approved. It's just frustrating not to have much of a choice in what I wear. As someone stated previously, where does the line get drawn? Are they going to require tipperary vests in the near future? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And here I was thinking you were gonna be the next great WP rider or sumthin' like that. Just goes to show you can't believe everthing you read on the internet. By the way, I think you can apply the same degree of credibility to what anyone else says on the internet. You don't actually have to take their suggestions or even explain why they are pointless in your particular case. Chances are, that person doesn't really care.

As for where lines are drawn, I guess I would get used to them. Functioning in society is all about rules that any given few of us don't much care for. Option B is a bunker in North Dakota and a close relationship with the rules of engagement as practiced by the FBI.

Lucassb, while it wouldn't be a violation of HIPAA to show "unidentifiable" redacted medical data on individual injury stats, it is still a Good Thing to not release the information on the grounds that it is a small enough community that someone might be able to deduce who injury x might be in reality. That's close enough to HIPAA for the average layperson, if you ask me. Funny thing though - back when the first part of HIPAA was enacted (loooong before the confidentiality piece kicked in), we happily dubbed it HIPPO, so to this day, I have been known to slip and type "HIPPA". Werkz 4 me.

[Lucassb]

Findeight, you may be right.

However, to indicate that the information used by the committee cannot be shared with the public because it is protected under HIPAA is inappropriate. The committee is part of the public as far as HIPAA is concerned, and to suggest that they have reviewed such information is tantamount to saying they have broken the law.

I really wish that the USEF would get some marketing and PR oversight in place to help them communicate this type of information. I am not faulting Mr. Ellis personally or the committee involved as I know they have worked hard to improve the sport for all of us. I do not expect any of them to be HIPAA experts (or experts on any other federal legislation for that matter.)

Just wish they would get a little help now and again so that they could communicate with the rest of the world more effectively.

For the record, I should probably state that I used to volunteer on the marketing committee of the AHSA and then the interim Fed, and this was the kind of thing I signed up to help with. Never did really get an opportunity to do anything along those lines (at the time, everyone was consumed with the USET litigation and little else) and was dismissed along with many other volunteers when the old committees were disbanded. So you can write it off as sour grapes if you like.

[Lucassb]

DMK, I hear ya.

However, my point was that from a HIPAA point of view, the committee and the "public" are the same thing. Thus any information properly shared with them can be safely shared with the rest of us.

I guess being in medical marketing has made me a bit sensitive to those types of statements.

[radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA]

I would say Lucasb, you are still needed. Possibly now more than ever. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[lmlacross]

Works for me. I bought my GPA at the Kentucky National this past fall. I do like the look, but, truly, the shape of the GPA was the only helmet that didn't make my 7 1/4 MELON look like a massive tumor was sprouting under my hat (International ATH was an absolute no-go-- not only did it not fit, but I looked ridiculous).

To be honest, I don't think I'll never like anything better than my old unapproved international with the deerskin harness, but the GPA fits well and looks good, so both my concerns for safety and vanity are addressed.
The federation's move makes logical sense from many angles, and, as an adult amateur rider, I don't give a damn what's on my head-- as long as it fits.

Having to wear an approved hat will certainly not reduce in any way my enjoyment of my horse or the midget jumper classes we dabble in.

LML

[NinaL aka Chrissy]

If you will miss your unapproved helmet that much keep it at ringside and don it for the hack class. Oh, and the jog, too. That way you will look attractive during the trophy presentation. Plus, your award presentation picture will look much better.

There should be more than enough time to change your helmet while your horse's shoes are pulled for the hack. And while the groom buffs off your horse for the jog. Heck, unless you are last to go in the class you will probably even have time to fix your ear patties.

I'm actually kind of depressed by the rule because I was getting ready to stick my old top hat on eBay to see what I could get for it. Well, it just lost a lot of value. Much like my investments. *wink*

Am I the only one getting a mental picture of Regal Crowne trundling off to the dressage and event shows to peddle their Pateys?

Regal Crowne at an event. The mind boggles.

Maybe they can help flip some horses http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Nina who really, truly hopes people realize this was written with tongue firmly planted in cheek

[411]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by plottwist:
Every ASTM approved helmet that I've ever tried on, not only does not fit, it hurts! I'm not against the new rule, but I do not like being forced to spend a ton of money for a product that does not fit properly and leaves me with a splitting helmet after 15 minutes. I can't be the only one out there. I'm not that special...

Why haven't the helmet companies addressed this issue? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I suspect now that the rule is going into effect you'll see many more options in approved helmets. This is a great thing for helmet manufacturers, as their market has just been greatly increased, and also a great thing for riders, as there should be more options available to us. Manufacturers would be foolish not to offer a wider variety of fits and sizes.

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Regal Crowne at an event. The mind boggles <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe you can wear an unapproved in your dressage test! And I think (I may be inaccurate) that I have seen them in the stadium phase as well.

The flipping horses phase requires a vest, approved and med card!

[Ash]

Good for the USEF! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It is about time!

Also, for those of you with long oval heads and are having a difficult time with the GPA, try the Textium. It is shaped differently then the Titanium GPA and fits my head (long oval) much better then the regular GPA.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Regal Crowne at an event. The mind boggles <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe you can wear an unapproved in your dressage test! And I think (I may be inaccurate) that I have seen them in the stadium phase as well.

The flipping horses phase requires a vest, approved and med card! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, No, No, Yes.

Yes, you can wear an unapproved helmet (or a top hat at the upper levels) for dressage.

No, you must wear an APPROVED helmet for stadium.

No, you must wear a vest for cross country, but it does not have to be approved (but your helmet must be approved).

Yes, you must wear a medical armband for both cross country ans stadium.

[GoldCoastRider]

I personally wear approved hard hats, but I have never had any desire to speak up for them or against any non approved one's. However, I think like all things it should be taken as something done for the betterment of our sport, this is a sport and we want to be safe while doing it. I wonder how many Adults feel pressured to conform and wear beautiful but known to be "unsafe" hard hats? And if that limits their learning curve? Maybe taking the emphasis out of such things as style and fashion, will put more focus into better riding, and thus this rule change will have far greater positive consequences. If people are suddenly freed from fashion trends, and can wear a hard hat that they know to be protective, who is to say they will not take the chance and try moving up or working harder, maybe some jumpers, or some eventing. I do believe that a lot of the backlash, comes from not only the corporate end but also the fashion end. And that is rather sad. I would hope that overlunging, drugging horses, abusive practices, non horemanship based riding and showing would foster such vocal protest. Not the clicking of a chin strap.

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> No, you must wear an APPROVED helmet for stadium. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I swore I saw people on the Rolex coverage doing stadium in a harnessless hat - perhaps I saw wrong - goes to show how UNNOTICABLE the approved hats have become! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Diva98]

I do hope this rule change means that we can expect more varietys of approved helmets - and more stylish looks. I wear a GPA - simply because my trainer insisted after the 1,000th time I fell off my horse - but I still miss the look and comfort of my old unapproved. The rule change won't bother me, but I can empathize with those of you still enjoying your unapproveds. The GPA was the only hat that looked slightly normal on my huge head, but I don't love the look and I find it very uncomfortable. Hopefully, new looks and styles are on the way!

[pinkhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ketch:

To me, though, it is a choice as far as what I want to wear. Like rust vs. beige. You can say it is a matter of safety, but to me it is a matter of choice pure and simple. We are allowed to wear canary vests instead of safety vests in the classics; why is this any different? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's cool. I know lots of neurologists, neurosurgeons, physical and occupational therapists, speech therapists, nurses, nursing assistance, hospice workers, etc etc who will be assured of job longevity as long as there's people like you around.

For the sake of those that care about you (unless they care about you in the same way you do) THINK! You DO have a choice. Supposedly you have enough neurologic function to type on a keyboard.

Proud to be a helmet nazi.

[CuriosoJorge]

May I just say that all the people who attempt to shock people into wearing an approved are way off the mark, and are in fact quite rude?

Would you tell an adult to quit smoking? Would you tell an adult to fasten his or her seatbelt in his or her own car?

[AM]

Magnolia, national eventing rules require an approved helmet for stadium. I'm not sure about FEI at the moment. In the past, FEI did not require approved helmets and Rolex is run under FEI rules. It used to annoy me immensely that the same riders who wore chinstraps for national events (and usually for FEI endurance) would ride in the show jumping in unapproved.

Lucassb - I'm a federal healthcare worker and only deal marginally with HIPAA. However, when I read Mr. Ellis's report, I jumped to the conclusion that they had information that may have come to them from individuals or steward/TD reports that now would be considered protected by HIPAA if that information had come from a healthcare institution. I believe that the EMT would be governed by HIPAA but would a jump judge or even an organizer of a competition be required to follow those rules?

[KSevnter]

I just came over from the eventing board because someone cross-posted the rule change there. I saw all the juniors wearing them, so I assumed the rule was for adults (as it is in eventing) as well.

The only thing I wanted to add, was that I was a pony clubber when USPC adopted the ASTM rule (this was the first group to make these helmets mandatory) and while we all grumbled a bit, and I went through a few helmets, we all accepted it as a consequence of participating in the sport.
This morning I picked up my mail and my United States Pony Club News magazine was in there. It has a 5 page accident report/study for 2003 in there. At the end of the report it states "All the Pony Club members in these accident reports were wearing helmets that met ASTM/SEI standards...The incidence of head injuries has declined significantly since these guidelines have been in place."

I understand it may take some time and effort to find a helmet that fits, but it is the most important piece of SAFETY equipment that a rider owns. So grumble a bit, find one and accept as the rest of us have, that USEF is not doing this to inconvenience you.

[Equitalk]

Thank You Lucasb for your concerns, We have an on staff counsel who works side by side with us. The accident data discussed is in general pools of info, and not in specific patient violation. In addition much of the data was collected prior to HIPPA being enacted, we choose to keep much info restricted to committee use only where we have discretion and confidentiality guidleines in place. The committee is made up of many health care professionals and Lawyers who working with in house counsel keep us well up to date on current laws.

[NinaL aka Chrissy]

FWIW, CuriosoJorge, I agree with you about using shock tactics to convince people to wear a helmet. Bullying seldom results in compliance. Implying that people who wear unapproved helmets are less mentally capable than those who wear approved is rude AND mind boggling. Granted, the new rule change has taken the decision out of a certain segment of the horse show population's hands but I don't begrudge anybody the time to vent about what the rule does to them personally. Come next December 1 it is all water under the bridge, anyway.

Now before anyone jumps down my throat about my choice of helmets please note that I have been wearing an approved helmet for a very long time and, if someone were to ask me my opinion, I will always recommend an approved. If they choose another style so be it. I have always had problems with certain vendors implying that their non-approved product is in some ways a safety helmet but that is another story.

Nina still wondering if a new vendor will be at Dressage At Devon this year......

[OverOxers]

I will admit I've read most of this thread but not all. One about the questions about current standards, I don't think they are going to take your helmet off and check the label to see if it's current. It's easy enough to tell if it's approved or not. Second when I was a junior my parents made me buy and approved helmet, when I became an adult I bought my first unapproved helmet. I recently purchased the Charles Owen Hampton hat and while it's a nice looking helmet on the shelf it looks stupid on my head. Oh well in year we'll all have salad bowl heads and we'll have to deal with it. As far as being told I have to wear a helmet I don't like it, but sometimes you have to put up with things you don't like to participate in the things you do. Furthermore about the fit, I don't know what to tell you, other than being large i seem to have a pretty normal shaped head, so that hasn't been as much of an issue for me. I do have to say though I think everyone will comes to terms with it, and we can all have salad bowl heads together!

[Lucassb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AM:
(snip)
Lucassb - I'm a federal healthcare worker and only deal marginally with HIPAA. However, when I read Mr. Ellis's report, I jumped to the conclusion that they had information that may have come to them from individuals or steward/TD reports that now would be considered protected by HIPAA if that information had come from a healthcare institution. I believe that the EMT would be governed by HIPAA but would a jump judge or even an organizer of a competition be required to follow those rules? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AM, I am far from a HIPAA expert myself http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif However, I like to think that I *do* have some expertise in marketing and communications.

My point was that, from a HIPAA standpoint, the committee members are part of the public.

Therefore, to suggest that the committee had access to information the public would be prevented from viewing due to HIPAA regulations was inappropriate. Doubtless it was simply a poor choice of words.

I am not trying to become the HIPAA police... I just wish the USEF would get some marketing/PR help so that they can communicate more effectively on important issues.

In general, suggesting that committee members have access to/rely on information not available to the general membership is a bad thing to put in writing. Even if it is true.

PR101.

[CuteHunter]

From waht I can tell, no one is saying you have to wear an approved helmet, they are saying you have to wear on IF you want to participate in our shows. Its that simple - its like I wont have people and their kids to my house unless they agree to keep their kids from touching my dog becasue he is older, blind and I cant guarantee he wont bite them if startled. I am not saying you cant bring your kids to my house, I am only saying you have to follow my rules while you are there.

Its their sandbox - play by their rules or get out.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

So I have to wear my GPA with my shadbelly too??!! What happens to my $$$ Locke top hat? Useless?

[Lucassb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Equitalk:
Thank You Lucasb for your concerns, We have an on staff counsel who works side by side with us. The accident data discussed is in general pools of info, and not in specific patient violation. In addition much of the data was collected prior to HIPPA being enacted, we choose to keep much info restricted to committee use only where we have discretion and confidentiality guidleines in place. The committee is made up of many health care professionals and Lawyers who working with in house counsel keep us well up to date on current laws. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are welcome and thanks to YOU for all your hard work.

Please do note that it was not the law I took issue with; rather it was the wording of the communication that I thought was problematic.

There are certainly situations that arise which are appropriately discussed privately in committees. However, as a policy, I do hope that the USEF will consider making the great majority of discussions open to the membership even where strong diversity of opinion exists.

The webinars of previous meetings were, IMHO, a great step forward for the organization, and fostered a more inclusive and representative association. I also thought it was great when members were welcomed to sit in and observe committee meetings if they made the effort to come to the convention. It has been two years since I last attended myself so I have no idea if that policy has continued, but I hope it has.

I also hope that all communications to members and the public promote a policy of open discussion and the free exchange of ideas. That's really all I meant to suggest.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NinaL aka Chrissy:
FWIW, CuriosoJorge, I agree with you about using shock tactics to convince people to wear a helmet. Bullying seldom results in compliance. Implying that people who wear unapproved helmets are less mentally capable than those who wear approved is rude AND mind boggling. Granted, the new rule change has taken the decision out of a certain segment of the horse show population's hands but I don't begrudge anybody the time to vent about what the rule does to them personally. Come next December 1 it is all water under the bridge, anyway. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen, Nina! Such a waste of 1's and 0's, although one hopes the sense of self righteousness created by such a post is as personally fulfilling as the aura of satisfaction that comes with having a pointless whine about the topic! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I too wonder about vendors at Devon as well... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[melliebay Aefvue Farms Chesapeake Bay]

I find it so amusing that the people who are complaining about having to wear approved helmets also probably wear tailored sportsman breeches, Grand Prix hunt coats and the like. It's really hot in the summer and those hunt coats get mighty uncomfortable, why aren't you protesting the need to wear a hunt coat? Everyone goes to such great lengths to "fit in" in this sport and you don't give a second thought to the money you drop on trendy items of apparel. At least a helmet is protecting your noggin.

[Mudroom2]

What amazes me is the professionals who ride around like a billboard for not being willing to accept practices that are known to be more safe and yet they expect parents to put their children under the care of those professionals.

I know the children would have to wear the certified helmets, that's not my point. My point is demonstrating to your current or potential clients that either you are willing to accept safer ways of doing things or you are not. The parents can control and see the helmet decision, they have to trust the professional for the 1000's of other decisions made in a child's riding career.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> No, you must wear an APPROVED helmet for stadium. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I swore I saw people on the Rolex coverage doing stadium in a harnessless hat - perhaps I saw wrong - goes to show how UNNOTICABLE the approved hats have become! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry, I was talking about the USEF rules.

Rolex is run under FEI rules, which are a bit different. It is complicated by the fact that different nations have different standards, and the British, for instance, objected to being told that they had to wear a helmet that met US standards, and vice versa.

The FEI rule (I just looked it up) now says that "protective headgear complying with European (EN), British (PAS), North American (ASTM), Australian/New Zealand tested standard is compulsory for anyone jumping an obstacle."

But it is a new rule, definitely more recent than the Sidney Olympics. So you may very well have seen someone at Rolex without a harness a couple of years ago. But not in 2003 or 2004.

[TobySocks]

This has been interesting reading for me (a Dane).

We've had rules re wearing approved helmets when jumping for several years, and I don't know a single person who would jump without wearing one (even very skilled and experienced riders/trainers).

Pony riders (kids up to 16 yrs old) now also have to wear an approved safety vest - and we expect adults will also have to start wearing vests in a few years.
A lot of pony riders complained when the vest rule went into effect last year, but the complaints weren't about them having to wear the vest (most of them already did anyway) - they just wanted the adults to have to wear them, too. And many adults agree with them.

I don't understand why you wear unapproved helmets? I'm not bashing, I'm honestly curious. Here, you either wear an approved or you don't wear a helmet at all (aaah the wind in my hair). No helmet is going to make you look pretty, so why wear one if not for safety?

As someone said, in a few years no one will remember what it was like before this rule - that's what it's like here. Now the helmet is just part of the outfit.

[Molly99]

Janet, I am assuming that is from the eventing rules as the FEI Show Jumping Rules only require a three point harness.


1.4. It is compulsory for anyone jumping a horse to wear a properly fastened hard hat with three point retention harness, including members of the armed services, police, gendarmerie, members of military establishments and national studs. This is strongly recommended also for anyone working a horse in the exercise and schooling areas or anywhere on the showground.
Notwithstanding the above, protective headgear, secured by a three point retention harness, is compulsory for juniors, children and is recommended for young riders, at all times when mounted.

So, Equitalk, has the FEI made a new rule, or did the committee base their decision partly on an eventing rule that is now requiring an approved helmet.

I can find nothing on the FEI site that states a change for show jumping helmet requirements.

I am one of those that personally has no problem with what type of hat, as long as it fits me well. I have not found an appoved that fits me without an awful headache, and I get enough of those without a helmet to spend $$ to get one all the time when riding.

But, I do have a problem with the USEF telling adults that they have to have a specific helmet, when there is much difference between the current approved helmets, and yet they still don't fit everyone. I don't see how the manufacuters are going to change their helmets that much when people are now being forced to buy them. Doesn't do much to encourage them to make any changes to increase their business.

[Glimmerglass]

Just curious if this is a USEF rule then I assume vaulting would - and should be the exact same logic - have to wear approved helmets, right? Not that I have ever seen vaulting in person, but I don't think they wear any head protection whatsoever. The USEF fully recognizes and regulates that high performance discipline (http://www.usef.org/content/equestrianSports/disciplines/highperformance/vaulting.php) just as much as showjumping and the like.

[Janet]

Molly 99 said:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Janet, I am assuming that is from the eventing rules as the FEI Show Jumping Rules only require a three point harness. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes. Rule 521.1 of the 21st edition of the FEI Rules for Eventing (both the version with updates through June 2003, and the version with updates through December 2003- I don't have the 22nd edition (2005) on on my computer yet, but I am sure they haven't retracted it)

[ADambra]

Flame me if you want, but I think this is just bringing the sport even farther from its roots.
One of my favorite things about watching the hunters is the classics, where the ladies dress in their shadbellies and top-hats. I think it is a loss to the sport that we will not longer be able to see this.
What are the tac shops supposed to do with all the top-hats they have left over that they will now not be able to sell?
I agree that it should be personal choice when one is over 18, and that if they are concerned with lawsuits, why not include a waver of some sort with the entries.
Just my 2 cents.

I can already see the waves it is going to cause at the shows with proffesionals schooling in the ring vs the stewards trying to enforce the new rule.. what about trotting over ground poles?

[RoyalTRider]

In response to the comment/ question about vaulting, apparently their research shows that because of the nature of the sport, helmets actually make injuries worse. I guess it's because if two or three people are falling together, the helmet visors could get stuck and badly injure the neck, but that is just a guess. Vaulting is actually suprisingly safe and most injuries are to the ankles and wirsts.

As for me, I'm right now awake between doses of my nice, strong most recent prescription narcotic, because this past Friday, my pavement was dry so I forgot that the grass would be wet from the unbelivable amount of rain that morning. So, I was running, turning the corner between my dry driveway and the dry sidewalk, and since I was cutting the corner a bit, I would be on the grass- which I again had forgotten was wet- one step. That one step was all it took for me to fall onto my head. Now, four days afterwards, my head is still POUNDING unbelivably (and nothing makes it worse until this new dose kicks in, reading, looking at the computer screen, doing schoolwork- just as nothing makes it better) and I can barely lie down because my neck hurts so badly. I don't want to think what would have happened were that fall from a running horse rather than a running human.

Look at the bright side- at least you're not polo players- how would you like your helmet to have a nice, shiny face guard in front of it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Equitalk]

Lucasb

I agree totally, the Fedration needs to do a better job of getting info out. I also feel they should continue to revise an antiquated rule change process. The CEO John Long and President David O'Connor have made much mention of continuing a tremendous work in progress to better the system. That will be one of the main benefits of having the USHJA in place. I still think with all that said, given the circumstances the process is still not too bad. We did have all of this available on the web site, and have held safety seminars at the federation convention for the last 3 years. Each convention attendee and Director was given a packet with stats regarding the helmet rule upon arrival.

I am pleased to also report that the fedration is doing a press release and possibly an article in the magazine on the helmet rule. Maria Partlow is working on this , and I would look for something official from USEF in a few days.

I think you do have some very valid points, and I will certainly pass on concerns regarding the availability of information.

[Ride'emCO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TobySocks:
No helmet is going to make you look pretty, so why wear one if not for safety?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am going to start with a disclaimer - I fully support the new helmet rule, for a variety of reasons.

However, an unapproved helmet is not the same as wearing no helmet at all. About 8 years ago, I took a header off the side of a galloping, 17 hh TB. I set my arm out as I fell, cracking it, then flipped over and knocked my (unapproved helmeted) head on a fencepost. The helmet cracked almost completely in half, but I did not sustain a head injury.

I consider myself lucky that I didn't get a concussion, but it could have been much worse.

[Lucassb]

Mr. Ellis,

Thanks for being so gracious about the commentary.

Might I suggest that for something as important and far reaching as a new helmet rule... the association consider a separate communication to the members who will be affected?

It is certainly easier to issue a press release and I think it is a good idea to consider adding an article in the magazine. Maybe most members do read either or both, and so management is comfortable with this approach. But it has been my experience that only a small core group of members are so attuned to the organization. I cannot remember how many times the old marketing committee discussed the "convention" and lamented the low percentage of attendance it drew from membership. Sadly we were never able to implement the plans that were offered to draw more participation and interest. My point is just that I think it is important to reach out more actively to the great majority of members who do not attend, and that takes more than a press release.

This is a very important change (IMO.) Perhaps a mailing (via the USHJA?) with an FAQ and expanded explanation would be worth considering. I know direct mail is expensive but in this case, I'd urge the USEF to consider it. A webinar is another vehicle to consider and may be more cost effective. I could easily see a thirty minute presentation and possibly 15 minutes or so of Q&A being very productive.

Just things to consider. Thanks again for hearing me out. And thanks again for all your hard work - this was a job very well done.

[NinaL aka Chrissy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

Amen, Nina! Such a waste of 1's and 0's, although one hopes the sense of self righteousness created by such a post is as personally fulfilling as the aura of satisfaction that comes with having a pointless whine about the topic! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

After this rather annoying day at work I say that nothing beats a good pointless whine. Even a heightened sense of self righteousness. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I too wonder about vendors at Devon as well... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it's &lt;fill-in-the-blank&gt; vendor meets the DQ! Who will win? Coming to a local dressage show near you!

Nina looking for some cheese to go with her whine

[DMK]

Now after MY day at work, I really feel like a good hearty wine beats a pointless whine, which of course always trumps a heightened sense of self-righteousness.

But this could be because I pay Pocket Trainer waaay too much money. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Giddy-up]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Equitalk:
The accident data discussed is in general pools of info, and not in specific patient violation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So then nobody knows a breakdown of injuries to juniors, ammies & pros I am assuming. I would think that if there is a rule change for adults to wear approved helmets, there must of been a rash of injuries to the ammy/pro sections to provoke this? Or was this rule change always coming since the juniors had to start wearing approved helemts & it was only a matter of time for the rest?

I too am glad I have held off replacing my (currently non-approved) helmet so I wouldn't have wasted my $$ depending on what I decided to purchase next.

[LMH]

Serious question for those so concerned about the injuries from riding bareheaded...I am NOT being sarcastic:

cheerleaders---thrown in the air-often on asphalt track surrounding football filed
gymnasts-floor exercises ( triple back flips), bars, vault, beam...
vaulting in horses...

seriously-these are all potential head injuries back I can't imagine a gymnast wearing an approved helmet and I have seen them miss and land flat on a head...

what IS the difference?

[DMK]

Serious answer? I believe the increased risk of accident due to lack of peripheral vision (as caused by a helmet) plays a role in those sports' decisions. But I'm working from a seriously bad memory here...

[vxf111]

LMH--

I can only speak to cheerleading as that is where I've had experience.

*Unlike riding, all stunts and tosses are planned (you don't just suddenly throw a basket toss in the middle of a routine, unlike a horse who may toss the rider with no warning, at any time)

*Stunts and tosses (most of them anyway) have a person designated as a spotter whose main job it is to secure the safety of the top/flyer. This person is involved with the stunt on the way up and down and is supposed to catch the flyer and buffer their fall in any emergency.

*You're not surprised in competition. You might show up at a hunter show and see a liverpool which you've never seen before, or a certain striding of jump, or a difficult combination. In cheerleading you prepare the routine at home and you're told ahead of time what the performance area will look like. No surprises day-of.

*In major competitions, professional spotters are also provided. Usually they're adult men who fill in if something going wrong with the stand and the usual spotter. They stand alongside/behind/near the stunts and are told in advance where the stunts are and when they're coming.

*Cheerleading competitions (at least all I've ever been to) take place on padded mats. You sting if you fall and you could hurt yourself, but it's not like being tossed onto the completely unpadded ground.

*Horses are unpredictable and can't speak English. When cheerleaders star seeing a stunt go wrong, they can call out for help or abort the stunt before it begins.

*I would venture to guess most cheerleading falls result in the flyer landing on their legs, back, or butt. A basket toss is straight up, at no time should the flyer's head be facing down. Same is true of partner stunts like extensions, elevators etc. I think tumbling is where you're likely to expose your head and you're not going all that fast or with that much momentum.

*Cheerleading is not an olympic sport. Cheerleading competitions DO have lots of saftey rules in a variety of different ways. There's just a different set of risks.

[Silver_Lining]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[vxf111]

Not to mention that as a spotter I would have NEVER spotted a flyer wearing a hard helmet. I broke my nose and fingrs enough catcthing people without wearing a heavy, harm brimmed hat. No WAY I would have stood under a helmeted person http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Glimmerglass]

Ice skaters don't wear helmets - or do they? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I don't watch it but I would think planned move do result in spills just as often as riders. Last I checked falling off the shoulders of a partner while in motion on ice (or doing a triple whatever) is going to result in a face plant just as hard as falling off a horse at a 4' fence.

I still don't get the exemption for vaulting. Controlled environment or not it would have the same element as all equestrian sport: an unpredictable animal with a mine of its own.

[Equitalk]

United States Equestrian Federation, Inc.

4047 Iron Works Parkway, Lexington, KY 40511-8483 Tel: (859) 258-2472 Fax (859) 231-6662 Web site: www.usef.org (http://www.usef.org)

NEWS RELEASE

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE January 19, 2005



Safety Rules at USEF Semi-Annual Board Meeting

Rule Changes Address Safety Concerns at Recognized Competitions

Lexington, KY – Consistent with one of the primary missions of the United States Equestrian Federation, which is to ensure the safety and welfare of both horses and riders, two important rule changes were approved at the annual meeting of the Board of Directors held in Louisville, Kentucky on January 16th . These changes should significantly contribute to safety at recognized USEF competitions. They involve the operation of motorized vehicles on horse show grounds by minors and the standards for safety helmets to be used in jumping competitions.

“This action by the Board was consistent with the entire tone of the annual meeting,” said John Long, Chief Executive Officer of the USEF. “They took a leadership position on these safety issues and did the right thing for our members and the sport.”

The first change was to rule GR301.5.a. The Board voted that beginning April 1st, 2005 minors who do not have a valid driver’s license which allows them to operate a motorized vehicle in the state in which they reside, will not be permitted to operate a motorized vehicle on the grounds of a recognized competition. This includes, but is not limited to, golf carts, motorcycles, scooters and farm utility vehicles. Penalties may include exclusion of the child, parents, guardians, and/or trainers from the competition grounds for the remainder of the competition and charges being filed against any of these individuals in accordance with Chapter VI. (Wheelchairs and other mobility assistance equipment for people with disabilities are exempt.)

“In the recent past there have been some very serious accidents caused by children driving motorized vehicles and the use of them on horse show grounds has increased dramatically the last few years,” said horse show organizer Andrew Ellis, Chairman of the USEF Safety Committee. “The safety of horses, riders and spectators has been compromised by this situation and we had to address it. This is a very good rule change and widely supported by show managers, trainers, parents and riders. ”

The second rule change unanimously passed by the Board was GR318 which pertains to the use of approved safety helmets by everyone, juniors and seniors, competing over fences. Beginning December 1st, 2005 it will be compulsory in all Hunter, Jumper and Hunt Seat Equitation classes, both open and breed restricted including Hunter Hack, where jumping is required and when jumping anywhere on the competition grounds (including warm-up rings) to wear securely fastened protective headgear which meets or exceeds ASTM/SEI standards and carries the SEI tag. Any rider violating this rule at any time must immediately be prohibited from further riding until such headgear is properly in place.

This rule is very similar to an already existing FEI rule, except that a different testing organization establishes the standard used in Europe. ASTM is the American Society for Testing and Materials. SEI is the Safety Equipment Institute.

The Paso Fino Horse Association requested that the Board add to this rule that approved helmets be worn in all Paso Fino classes requiring jumping, and by all sub-juniors (exhibitors under 12 years of age) at all times when riding on the competition grounds of a Paso Fino show. The Board approved this addition.

According to Lexington, Kentucky neurosurgeon Dr. William Brooks, Chief Medical Officer at the Rolex Three-Day Event for the past 20 years; and former Chairman of the Safety Committee for the United States Pony Club, the vast majority of fatalities in horseback riding occur in falls with injuries to the head. In the past ten years Dr. Brooks has treated 187 head injuries which occurred in riding accidents. Of those the most consequential were concussion; fractures, which accounted for 35 injuries with none among riders wearing a helmet with a retention harness; blood clots, accounting for 35 injuries with 24 of those among riders not wearing helmets; and 27 fatalities, with 26 occurring among those not wearing a safety helmet. “The key is the retention harness and the appropriate helmet each time and every time,” said Dr. Brooks.

“The statistics available show that there is a very specific risk to riders not wearing the proper headgear,” observed Mr. Ellis. He cited medical information and statistics that pertain to equestrian sport in the United States:

· A person 2 to 3 feet off the ground traveling at 2 to 3 miles per hour can suffer permanent brain damage
· Riders are elevated 6 to 8 feet and at a hand gallop are traveling at 22 to 24 miles per hour in a forward position, they therefore have a substantially increased risk of a head injury, and that risk increases dramatically if they are not wearing a securely fastened safety helmet.

· According to the American Medical Equine Association/Safe Riders Foundation, 20% of all equestrian injuries are head injuries, and 60% of fatalities are due to head injuries.

· According to National Electronic Scoring System (which provides emergency room information to the Center for Disease Control) the most likely age group for equestrian injuries are adults 25-44 years of age, and the majority are female.

· A rider who has sustained one head injury is 40% more likely to suffer a second and more serious injury.
· The British Equestrian Society’s hospital admission rate for equestrians fell 46% when they adopted a similar standard.

· In 2003 USEF Hunter & Jumper competitors accounted for over 55% of the Federations reported head injuries. Eventing accounted for 25%, and the remainder was distributed among all the other breeds and disciplines.

“An ASTM/SEI approved helmet cannot totally prevent an injury, but it certainly can help manage the risk,” said Mr. Ellis.

Bill Moroney, President of the United States Hunter Jumper Association also applauded the new rule changes, “At our USHJA convention in October we listened to the USEF Safety Committee’s argument and asked them to come back and provide us with compelling information to support passage of these changes. They did that in Louisville, and as a result we confidently support them.”



ENDS

For more information, please contact Maria Partlow, Senior Vice President of Marketing and Communications on (859) 225-6941 or via email at mpartlow@usef.org. USEF press releases are available on our web site – www.usef.org (http://www.usef.org).
As the National Governing Body of Equestrian Sport, The United States Equestrian Federation, Inc. (USEF), is the regulatory body for 27 breeds and disciplines, including our country’s international teams competing in the disciplines of dressage, driving, endurance, eventing, reining, show jumping, and vaulting. With over 80,000 members, it is the country’s largest multi-breed organization and annually recognizes more than 2,800 competitions nationwide. The USEF governs all aspects of competition including education and licensing of all judges, stewards, and technical delegates who officiate at these shows.

VISION STATEMENT

The vision of the United States Equestrian Federation is to provide leadership for equestrian sport in the United States of America, promoting the pursuit of excellence from the grass roots to the Olympic Games, based on a foundation of fair, safe competition and the welfare of its horses, and embracing this vision, to be the best national equestrian federation in the world.

[apachepony]

Being a former gymnast I agree with whoever talked about cheerleading. You always do stunts on highly padded mats, and with spotters when you are learning. I can't tell you how many times I landed on my head trying to learn a back handspring, but in the process of learning gmynastics, you learn how to move your body to prevent yourself from being hurt. For example, if I do a back handspring, I get in the air and know, of *@$* i'm going to land on my head...so I stick out my arm, and turn it into a roll. I don't just go "oh well" and land square on my head. I figure the same goes for vaulting.

Adults shouldn't be so winey about wearing helmets. As a former junior i'm used to wearing them. Find one that fits. Big deal. I don't want to see your brain smeared all over a jump, so wear your helmet and spare me. Your loved ones don't want to see that either. Unapproved helmets look so out of place with everyone else wearing approved ones. Isn't hunters all about keeping up with current trends (or so it seems...) so get with the picture and wear your approved helmet.

[wanderlust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
I still don't get the exemption for vaulting. Controlled environment or not it would have the same element as all equestrian sport: an unpredictable animal with a mine of its own. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, for one thing they aren't jumping courses of fences, and the new rule applies to jumping.

Apart from that, can you imagine the disaster that would befall a vaulter if the helmet slipped down over their eyes or back on their head? Besides for screwing up their vision, I would imagine a couple pounds of helmet would seriously affect their balance and ability to right themselves. Or they could catch an edge or brim on a piece of their horse's equipment, or a team-member's helmet or costume, and that could be disastrous as well. I can think of a million reasons why vaulting would be exempt from a helmet rule... namely that a helmet in their case is MORE likely to cause falls and injury than prevent it.

[Pol]

This is the dumbest collection of writing I have ever seen. The good news for you fools is that you have all Summer to bash your heads in before the rule takes effect!

[DMK]

Pol, when people talk about you, they always point out how witty, kind, gracious, understanding and what a stellar negotiator you manage to be all at once, eh? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[starlight]

I'm curious as to how this will effect the ladie's side saddle division. The hack class has 2 jumps and there is an o/f as well. I plan on showing in the division this year, and would have no issues wearing my approved with the formal SS habit. Since the apppintments class is under saddle only there would most likely be top hats required, but people usually change in to hunt caps for the o/f. A plain velvet approved such as a CO Hampton would look fine for the SS...just a thought!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif erica

[Molly99]

I still want to know what FEI rule they are refering to that requires seniors to wear an approved helmet.

All I can find in the show jumping section is that riders must wear a three point harness.

[Snowbird]

First of all what made the helmet attractive was a lack of insulation a firm brim and the long low back. Whether a junior or an adult the fact is that everyone can fall off. The real question is how you land.

Even if there were only three injuries and you were one of those three who was turned into a vegetable from brain damage you might consider that once was enough. We get one head and it deserves to be treated with respect because there is no backup or prosthesis to replace it.

This is two separate questions: one why you should wear a safe helmet. The fact is it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the the beautiful and attractive old helmets did not insulate your brain from being scrambled like an broken egg. They also had a solid brim which is why if you fell on your face it would push the lovely long attractive back of the helmet onto the back of your neck where it could paralyze you or give you severe brain damage. If you were lucky it fell off and rolled away leaving your head exposed to be stepped on by the horse.

Otherwise if you bounced on the top of your head the brain damage without insulation sent you back to a mental age at kindergarten stage or at the least possibly unable to speak or read. If you fell and hit the back of your head that lovely attractive helmet was pushed forward and the really nice brim smashed your nose and all the bones in your face, sometimes so badly you could never breathe right again.

The second question is should the USEF pass rules about making you wear one. It really doesn't matter because the rule is not enforceable. Unlike a seat belt which is either there or not it is impossible for anyone to tell the difference in sufficient certainty to prevent you from competing. Who is responsible for refusing you admission to the ring for competition? The Judge, the Steward or some paid employee that opens and closes the gate.

The general public has an interest because the cost of your medical treatment increases the cost of all of our insurance. The USEF however is not a Private Club, it is a Nonprofit Charitable Association with a purpose of education. Regulation is limited to tangible terms and conditions that can be measurable and definable by law. This is not one of those and should stay a recommendation.

The problem is that if you are injured and there is a rule which has not been enforced the insurance carrier is going to look for someone to help pay the bills.

DO ANY OF YOU REALIZE THAT IF YOU HAVE FALLEN WITH YOUR HELMET IT SHOULD BE REPLACED?Once you have had an impact on that approved helmet it is no longer certified whatever the model. Since no one but you has any way to know if you have fallen and not junked your helmet there is no way to make this an enfoceable rule.

There are no guarantees, this is a dangerous sport and the statistics are irrelevant, the rule is not enforceable as to actual safety because as above there is no warranty once you have fallen with the helmet on. This is a "feel good rule" it makes the sponsors feel as if they have accomplished something but in reality you are the sole caretaker of your head.

Yes, you can die if you fall the wrong way. Yes, that is an accepted risk by everyone who chooses to ride. While I am opposed to those who reject the approved helmets because of ill placed vanity on the otherhand there is in reality no one who can keep you safe but you and "Lady Luck".

Any helmet without a brim or with a brim that snaps off on impact is safer than with the old helmets. Any insulated helmet is better than an uninsulated helmet. A helmet cut high enough in the back so it will not when you fall reach the most precious vertibrae on the back of your neck is better.

The Standards for bicycles with those pointed back to be airo-dynamically better are blatantly dangerous because if the cyclist falls on the back of their head the helmet will go forward and crush the bones on the face. It doesn't matter what standard they meet as to impact.

I would have my children wear the safest helmet that fits them correctly that I can find. As a Mom I don't need rules to tell me so. I also don't want someone to tell me what is safest unless I agree with them it is an imposition of will and by doing so an acceptance of personal liability if it turns out not to be so.

I do not believe there is a single manufacturer of any helmets who will certify that the helmet is safe. They will say it has better options than the alternatives of no protection. I can't see any logical reason why an adult is not just as vulnerable as a child if they fall off the horse and hit a wall. The only difference is that they will be supported for a shorter time if permanently damaged.

[3dazey]

...tip-toeing in to say, I remember when the ASTM-SEI rule went into effect for eventing lo these many years past. We didn't have much to choose from, so had to suffer through a couple years of mushroom-headedness before a few better-looking variations came down the pike. Now that "the axe" has fallen on the hunter world, I say in complete selfishness that I AM GLAD!!! Glad because I look forward to a much bigger variety of better-fitting, better-looking approveds to choose from! I know that y'all won't settle for a choice of two or three hideous melon-pots.

(I did say it was very selfish, didn't I???) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[CAH]

Three months ago I would not have jumped into this discussion. Two months ago I experienced a serious fall which resulted in 48 hours in a trauma center, 2 fractured ribs and a partially collapsed lung. Upon my return home from the hospital, the first thing I saw was my helmet. Completely cracked up the back - the brim was long gone and I remembered it landed about 15 feet from me. Funny, a head injury was the last thing the hospital asked me about, because it was obvious that I had not suffered any type of head injury. I honestly do not remember hitting the ground that hard, I do know I was stepped on at least once. Oh yes, I spent 2 days in the hospital sharing a room with a woman who fell down a flight of steps and was a head injury client. That was enough to thank my stars I was wearing an approved helmet. And BTW, I now believe in safety vests also.

Ride in your unapproved all you want at home. Heck, don't wear a helmet at all. But as they say, when in Rome.....

[wtywmn4]

Sorry, but I don't even believe in riding at home without an approved on my head. Its a habit. Get used to it, it may save your life. Others will be happy to know you have taken precautions to protect yourself. We can site all the past we want. But let's face it, we don't have shows, boarding facilities, pastures or trails like we used to. The majority of horses are kept in stalls with paddocks being their only means of turn out. No grazing for hours, no herd instinct, no feel of the ground. We have increased the opportunity of accidents. Now, we need to be prepared. And since we can't seem to do this without guidance, rules are made. My approved has saved my nogin from grooming accidents. You know the ones, where flies land, horse cow kicks on two legs. You're picking their feet. Clunk, knocks you back, but you're unscathed. Hmmm, seems like a small amount to pay not to be damaged.

[LMH]

OK I can see some distinction in cheerleading competetions-but I was talking good old fashioned Friday night football game highschool cheerleading on the track around the field-no mats.

It also still leaves an explanation for vaulting.

(Just to be fair, matters not to me...when I do wear a helmet I actually have an approved one-so I am not complaining about looks or fashion...simply about the logic behind the rule--I simply can't find it...)

[Madeline]

I betcha the legal eagles at USEF are holding their collective breath until December of '05. Now that they've made the rule, they're REALLY on the hook if someone sues in the period until it is in force.

[KellyS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pol:
This is the dumbest collection of writing I have ever seen. The good news for you fools is that you have all Summer to bash your heads in before the rule takes effect! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Bravo Pol! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by starlight:
I'm curious as to how this will effect the ladie's side saddle division. The hack class has 2 jumps and there is an o/f as well. I plan on showing in the division this year, and would have no issues wearing my approved with the formal SS habit. Since the apppintments class is under saddle only there would most likely be top hats required, but people usually change in to hunt caps for the o/f. A plain velvet approved such as a CO Hampton would look fine for the SS...just a thought!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif erica <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I competed in the sidesaddle divisions in '98 and '99 and many of us did change into approved helmets or at least hard hats with harnesses for the two over fences classes. I don't forsee this rule change making a big difference in the sidesaddle division. The appointments class is on the flat, and it's the only class that requires a top hat. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Madeline]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2ndyrgal:
&lt;snippage&gt; Perhaps someone should instead of making it mandatory in the show ring for adults, just insist on all of us who do not choose to protect ourselves with an approved helmet, they should simply make us sign some sort of "yes I am an idiot" waiver, and pre pay a fine that would go to either the governing body of horse shows or to research for head injuries. And at the risk of offending many, I may not wear an approved helmet, but I am an organ donor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, there's the problem. You're laboring under the delusion that you will have any say in whether someone sues for your lifetime upkeep after the injury. It isn't up to you. It's up to your health insurer, and everyone knows that they LOVE to pay out huge sums over a long period of time...

Now if you are not insured, it's probably up to the taxpayers, and that's the rest of us.

Good work, USEF, on setting the rule. Now make it universal for anyone mounted at any show under your sanction and you'll really have done something.

[oxerdown]

I think this is a good rule. I personally would like to see it at all times when riding, but I guess they are trying to be consistent with other breed/discipline in the association.

Lets face it- Equitalk was posting polls and notices about his committee and it's rule change months ago. I think most people said they would have liked to require the helmets at all times.

I think it is important to realize who bears the burden of head injury, especially in the un-insured.

Good work USEF

[Madeline]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pooh:
ok. I'm going to ask a goofy question http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif- how do you know fi you bough a helmet 3-5 years ago if it meets the current standards. Nothavign my helmet in front of me- is there something printed on teh label??? Or is there a certain period of time after that we should just figure that the helmet isn't up to standards. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm in catch up mode on this thread, but in case no one has answered this, a helmet is good for 5 years from the date of manufacture OR one whack. That's just for the materials. If the standards change, they change, but good sense would allow the 5 year window.

[rider11]

I haven't read through all 8 pages, so I hope I'm not repeating...

I do love my unapproved helmet - always hated the feel of the approved ones, but besides that point I have a couple of questions...

1. Since everyone will have to wear approved, will the price drop? Because I can certainly buy my nice unapproved helmet for a lot less then a GPA or CO.

2. Does anyone have a link to any studies done that prove that unapproved helmets are ineffective and approved are effective? I am truly curious to know.

[oxerdown]

Just ask Patey to send their helmet to the ASTM-SEI people for testing. I am sure you will find your answer. It is my understanding from reading their web site any helmet could be sent for testing.

Maybe Regal Crowne (Patey) should send theirs, and provide the info for us all to see.

[vxf111]

Sidelines cheerleading was incredibly dangerous at time. We tended to take it easy and not do as much tumbling/stunting or only do stunts we knew really well. Also, the track at my school was a very springy, boundy material that was fairly soft. Not as bad as landing on concrete or cement. Not a padded mat either, but closer to grass. The key different interms of head injuries being the MUCH lower rate of velocity you're moving at while tumbling/stunting. MUCH lower than being ejected from a horse.

[CuriosoJorge]

"Lets face it- Equitalk was posting polls and notices about his committee and it's rule change months ago. I think most people said they would have liked to require the helmets at all times."

I would argue that the people who answered that poll, and for that matter lots of people who post here regularly, are not USEF members or do not go to USEF horse shows on a regular basis, so they will not be affected by this rule change. I AM curious why this obviously highly debatable issue was not put to a membership referendum.

[Offset]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I AM curious why this obviously highly debatable issue was not put to a membership referendum. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Me too. It would be nice to be able to have a say in something that affects the ENTIRE H/J community. Another example of your membership dollars at work... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Lucassb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oxerdown:
Just ask Patey to send their helmet to the ASTM-SEI people for testing. I am sure you will find your answer. It is my understanding from reading their web site any helmet could be sent for testing.

Maybe Regal Crowne (Patey) should send theirs, and provide the info for us all to see. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oxer down, the Pateys are custom helmets and are individually made. The testing process is designed to assess helmets which are made to a single standard and manufactured so that each one is essentially the same - so they can test one (or a small number) and certify the rest.

Testing a single Patey would give you information about that particular helmet, but would not necessarily give you useful data about any of the others.

[lisa]

CuriosoJorge and others -- that may not be true. Many state organizations, including the G(eorgia)HJA, choose to defer to the USEF/USHJA rules when there is not an explicit local rule.

When the helmet rule for juniors was passed, though we didn't explicitely pass a state rule requiring approved helmets, they were required at GHJA local rated shows.

Madison, you will have email in a few minutes.

I would be willing to bet that most state orgs -- if they are under the USEF/USHJA "umbrella" --will be mandating that the new rule for adults be followed as well.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Offset:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I AM curious why this obviously highly debatable issue was not put to a membership referendum. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Me too. It would be nice to be able to have a say in something that affects the ENTIRE H/J community. Another example of your membership dollars at work... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This, and all other proposed rule changes, ARE effectively "put to a membership referendum".

The rule change proposals are all posted on the USEF web site- this one has been there since September. And a printed version of the rule change proposals has been available, free for the asking, since November.

ALL members are invited to submit comments on the rule change proposals. You can even do it online, and save the cost of postage.

Are you REALLY suggesting that it would be a PRODUCTIVE use of member funds to send out a SEPARATE mailing on one particular proposal?

I know that _I_ would consider that an enormous waste of money.

Just as people who don't vote in the national election shouldn't complain about who gets elected, people who can't be bothered to read the rule change proposals shouldn't complain that "they didn't ask ME!"

They DID ask you. You just couldn't be bothered.

[asterix]

OK, brief disclaimer here -- as an eventer, I can honestly say I have NO CLUE why everyone is so worked up about this. No, wait, as an ex-intercollegiate rider who remembers when IHSA riders had to wear approved (hmm, 1987, perhaps?), I have NO CLUE why everyone is worked up about this.

But, come on. 30 seconds on the Dover website and I found a perfectly nice International approved for 55 bucks.

Will it fit everyone? No. But on the whole, I really don't think you need a 400 buck helmet to comply with this rule.

[GoldCoastRider]

I know most adults do not like having their freedom of choice taken from them, it is human nature and I see clearly how this "sucks" and is "unfair" in many peoples minds, I also can see very clearly the corporate issues and the money issues on both sides...the feeling that the applause or hissing is backing or harming a company, rather than a rule. I am not sure what will happen next December as the 2006 show season starts, since almost all local H/J shows do follow the USEF rules and regulations it would mean that from local to B to AA this rule would have a major impact on exhibitors, trainers, and hard hat companies. I have to believe that the committee and individuals behind this made this decision with the best interest of the sport in mind and that of the people involved. I know that statistics are many times inflated or manipulated for emmotion and shock value however it is proven that the approved hard hats meet standards that can protect the head and brain in the event of a bad fall...sure there is no gurantee...and the neck,body and face, etc are not protected...but it is one step that can be taken to protect the rider more without going so far as to require a suit of armor! Lots of organizations have rule and law changes and ammendments...and all are for making things safer and better, I believe this in one such step for the Hunter/Jumper shows.

[CuriosoJorge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lisa:
CuriosoJorge and others -- that may not be true. Many state organizations, including the G(eorgia)HJA, choose to defer to the USEF/USHJA rules when there is not an explicit local rule.
(snip)
I would be willing to bet that most state orgs -- if they are under the USEF/USHJA "umbrella" --will be mandating that the new rule for adults be followed as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a situation like "all paints are pintos, but not all pintos are paints". To be quite frank, I don't think members of local horse show organizations should have any say so in making the USEF rules unless they are also members of the larger governing body. You missed my point, which was that the membership was not consulted.

[CuriosoJorge]

"No, wait, as an ex-intercollegiate rider who remembers when IHSA riders had to wear approved (hmm, 1987, perhaps?"

Not true. Your school may have required it, but the IHSA did not require approved helmets until the USEF made them required for juniors, which was I believen in 2002. I was peeved that I had to buy one just for my senior year of college.

[RoyalTRider]

Not responding to the most recent posts but rather on the main topic:

I think a lot of this has to do with fashion. A lot of it.

No one is forcing anyone to spend 300 dollars on an "in fashion" helmet; your head can be protected just as well for a lot less. And really, guys- IMHO the views on how approved helmets look are exargerated. They really, I believe, don't look that bad. Matter of fact- I don't believe they look bad at all. For those of you so concerned about looking like mushroom heads, really- a simple, cheap velvet-covered helmet with a tan or black harness looks pretty much the same to most people watching, and those who get out of shape over the exact precise measurments around the head are not, IMHO, worth the time to get upset about in this case.

Just to throw my personal opinion out, I went through thinking how "sharp" and "professional" unapproveds looked, but got over that fairly quickly, without every wearing one (thank God). I used to think that unapproveds the same as approveds made one look professional and competent. I no longer feel that way. Now I think the unapporveds look stupid, plain and simple, not because of their make but because of what I see projected when I wear them. When I see someone wearing an approved, I see a calm, competent, professional image of a *serious* and *knowledgable* rider projected. And (zips up flame suit) I have to say that personally, I prefer the velvet-covered approved far over the look of the GPA.

[A/O Jumper]

I think it is crap as well...we are old enough to decide whether or not we want to wear an approved helmet. If I want to risk bashing my head in, that is my perogative and my choice.
Should be interesting because I know a lot of amateurs down here, and many pros hate those damn "skunk" helmets. I always said if some of them get one, I might consider it.

[xegeba]

A/O , while I agree that it is your choice... what you are missing is this. If you end up dead or a vegetable, someone could sue on your behalf. Your SO or children or parents could sue on your behalf. It costs a ton of money to defend against a lawsuit. This whole issue is about MONEY. As is most issues.

[Snowbird]

1. The only vote we have is with the check book.

2. It is unenforceable because we as show managers cannot inspect every helmet before you enter the ring so you are on your own anyway.

3. No one is going to announce they have a helmet that has been impacted or may not be certified.

4. As a show manager I can only tell if the helmet is on or not.

5. I resent the image that some how "backyard shows" are inferior they are now going to be endorsed and rated. What is back yard for one person can be 5 star to someone else.

6. We have lived with the Junior rule for helmets and we can live with the Adult extension of the rule. If the helmets are not any safer we are no worse off as show managers.

7. To have a certified helmet does not require a skunk stripe both Troxel and International make lovely helmets that are certified for under a $100 where you can afford to throw it away if you have a crash.

[xegeba]

The fact that the rule is in place means that you have to inspect? The highway patrol does not pull over cyclists to inspect their helmets.

[Equitalk]

In response to several questions I have had regarding the helmet rule.

The Federation (USEF) Safety Committee has been working on this rule change for almost 3 years. After much discussion and debate we unanimously agreed to put forth the current rule change almost 8 months ago. The rule change proposal was sent out to all USEF committee's including it's Active Athlete's, Show Managers, Jumper, National Hunter, Pony Hunter, Junior Hunter, and all Zone Committee's. In addition the rule proposal was sent out in press release and via the USEF week in review web updates. The rule change was also presented to the Board and Committee's of the USHJA. All of the USEF/USHJA committee's and director's evaluated factual data provided made available without regard to any individuals personal financial gain or benefit. The majority of these committee's and their members fully supported this rule change. The USEF BOD was unanimous in it's voting to approve.

The rule change proposal also followed all standard and published practices for rule changes. This rule was not deemed extraordinary, and followed the rather lengthy process that includes many avenues for USEF member feed back. This rule change has been clearly available for review and comment via the USEF web site and through published upcoming rule changes via regular mail. This is the same process we have for all rule changes, so this should be NO surprise if you are a current USEF member and understand the rules of the association you joined. I am assuming if you joined an association you would take the time to educate yourself to the rules of the association you just joined. To not do so is at best irresponsible in my personal opinion.

I personally on several times sent emails, started discussion topics, and asked for USEF members to give feedback via polls and other means on web sites such as COTH and Towerheads. This was not done in any USEF capacity, but was merely intended to put additional word out on the street through avenues I know USEF members travel. This was simply an attempt to better inform the members through available media sources. I am a firm believer in the benefit of utilizing outlets such as COTH web boards to stimulate conversation and in the end we hopefully motivate members to get involved.

I can tell you that the Federation has many outlets for members to feedback on this and any rule change. Information provided on sites like this one does not go back to the safety committee, but we hope to encourage USEF members to get involved in the process through proper channels of communication. If you or any federation member, manufacturer, and/or medical expert has legitimate information about helmets approved or not, that is not derived from one persons financial gain we will welcome that feedback. The way to do so is through the federations web site or call the USEF offices directly and speak with the appropriate staff member. Please refer to usef.org or call 859-258-2472.

I can say that personally I feel the role of the safety committee regarding this rule change in the future will be one of education and continued monitoring as new technology presents itself. We have reviewed factual and unbiased information. We came to the unanimous decision to put forth this rule change, and I stand by that decision. We will continue to hold open all legitimate channels of communication to all Federation members equally. I will continue my efforts to encourage the committee to view all sides of argument equally, and I expect they will continue as we have in making those democratic choices into the future.

I would encourage all USEF members to familiarize yourself with the responsibilities of the Safety Committee as set forth in the USEF Bylaws.

I would also like to add that all helmet manufacturers approved and un-approved have been extended the same opportunities to share feedback and factual data.

I will no longer continue to add to the COTH threads specific to this issue, but would again ask that if you want to share with me or the safety committee you do so through official means available. My email is provided below.

I know that I as Chair of the Safety Committee that my conscious is clear. We viewed all sides equally and make a decision that we stand behind. The role of the Federation is to uphold the highest standards of safety for both human and equine athlete, and that's what we are doing.

I would again like to remind everyone that the Headgear rule for junior's competing in Hunter-Jumper is exactly as it has been. There is NO change to that existing rule.

Andrew Ellis, Chairman
USEF Safety Committee
equitalk@aol.com

[Madeline]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A/O Jumper:
I think it is crap as well...we are old enough to decide whether or not we want to wear an approved helmet. If I want to risk bashing my head in, that is my perogative and my choice.
Should be interesting because I know a lot of amateurs down here, and many pros hate those damn "skunk" helmets. I always said if some of them get one, I might consider it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're missing the point. Just as Nascar drivers, ski and motorcycle racers have a choice, you have one too. You seem to be choosing to show over fences. If you make that choice, you're going to have to play by the rules of the sanctioning body. It's their playground, they get to make the rules.

So go ahead. Vote with your feet. Go Western. Ride dressage. Look into gaited horses. A lifetime of lost revenue from you and yours will make an insignificant pinch of money next to the cost of defending, and inevitably losing, a lawsuit from one person's health insurer where the key question for the jury to decide is "HOW MUCH should it cost the trainer, the horse show and USEF for NOT requiring a piece of safety equipment that is widely available, reasonably priced and proven effective in preventing these types of injuries?"

Again, for whatever reason, their playground, their rules. Ask Ludger Beerbaum about rules...

[Madeline]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:

2. It is unenforceable because we as show managers cannot inspect every helmet before you enter the ring so you are on your own anyway.

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">You may want to reconsider that in light of your obligation to enforce the rules you set forth. Just because compliance will be inconvenient doesn't mean you are not responsible for making sure its done.</span>

3. No one is going to announce they have a helmet that has been impacted or may not be certified.

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">No way can you regulate stupidity, but you should consider the necessity of checking for appropriate labels.</span>

5. I resent the image that some how "backyard shows" are inferior they are now going to be endorsed and rated. What is back yard for one person can be 5 star to someone else.

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">I'm not seeing that. But any show manager or property owner has the same obligation to enforce the rules and to protect his or herself and assets. See above. Even an unsanctioned show has the same obligation to require "best practices." In a lawsuit, the manager of a "backyard" show will come under the same scrutiny as a AA. The defense "We are not a recognized show, we don't have the same rules" will elicit the correct response "Well, you shoulda known better anyhow. So hand over the deed to your farm and all your other assets..." </span>

7. To have a certified helmet does not require a skunk stripe both Troxel and International make lovely helmets that are certified for under a $100 where you can afford to throw it away if you have a crash. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">Exactly. Compliance can be had for even less. About $34.95.</span>

[Portia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madeline:
You're missing the point. Just as Nascar drivers, ski and motorcycle racers have a choice, you have one too. You seem to be choosing to show over fences. If you make that choice, you're going to have to play by the rules of the sanctioning body. It's their playground, they get to make the rules.

So go ahead. Vote with your feet. Go Western. Ride dressage. Look into gaited horses. A lifetime of lost revenue from you and yours will make an insignificant pinch of money next to the cost of defending, and inevitably losing, a lawsuit from one person's health insurer where the key question for the jury to decide is "HOW MUCH should it cost the trainer, the horse show and USEF for NOT requiring a piece of safety equipment that is widely available, reasonably priced and proven effective in preventing these types of injuries?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thank you, Madeline -- Very well reasoned and very well said.

[akrogirl]

I still have a hard time understanding the fuss. In all my years of SCCA racing, I don't recall anyone complaining about the helmet rule - and yes, our helmets were checked at registration to ensure that they were within their five year life. Same with IAC competition aerobatics - if you don't have a parachute that is current on its packing, you don't fly. Both organizations are extremely safety conscious and take that aspect of their duties very seriously. I'm glad to see this sport becoming more pro-active in this regard.

[tle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
2. It is unenforceable because we as show managers cannot inspect every helmet before you enter the ring so you are on your own anyway.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kinda like drug testing? If that were true the length of the "caught" lists would be a LOT shorter!

[findeight]

Oh please, somebody cannot tell the difference between one of those old Circuits or a Patey and an approved at a half mile??????????

And my own barn's unsanctioned shows (tho state rated) enforce the helmets rule courtesy of the insurance company that underwrites the place. It doesn't require approved only yet but that will come PDQ now that it's a rule on the top level.

The fact that an injured party's insurance underwriter does have standing to sue due to having to foot the bills escapes many.

YOU can say you won't sue. But your insurance company WILL and you don't have a thing to say about it.

[GoldCoastRider]

I can understand adults not wanting to give up their right to choose if and when they want to ride with a certain hard hat since for years and years this has not been an issue.

However, there was a time when many riders rode without any hard hats...look at George Morris's recent article on jumping style and position.

Does anyone remember or know the facts of how people reacted to the "hard hats must be worn when mounted or showing rule?" Surely that rule although not always enforced in the schooling ring...is par to this one in some ways? Obviously people got on with their business and just put on the required hard hats and showed...this is not much different. Except with the enormous amounts of money now invested in riding, this has a major impact on many companies both positively and negatively.

I think the thoughts on racecar drivers and other sports where people choose to particpate and then like in Democracy give up some rights for the priveledge of being involved is a good analogy. The governing bodies and the show management have taken the responsibility of providing events and venues for hunter /jumper riders to compete. Therefore regardless of waivers and liability protection are still responsible for the participants. We know accidents can happen at any time in may ways around horses, but we also know that one of the most preventable, although not full proof is head injury and again it is simply by wearing a hat that has been built to specifications that meet "true" safety standards. Unfortunately as I stated earlier, certain parts of the body while so vulnerable, cannot be protected that is why riding is an extreme sport, you are moving and jumping out of your own ability true...but through the physical movement and ability of a living., breathing creature and anything can happen.

There are a lot of hunt caps like the charles owens ones or the velvet GPA's and I am sure others I have simply not paid atention to that would look just fine and more traditional. The fact is the sport has a right to protect its existence and future, for not only itself but for all of us. The need was seen maybe out of growth, to mandate some safety rules, which frankly are pretty lax in the H/J world.

If this rule remains...Do whatever you want at home..but for the few minutes in the ring, wear the right hard hat and click the chin strap. You won't even think about this being an issue a few years down the road.

[Glimmerglass]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madeline:
You're missing the point. Just as Nascar drivers, ski and motorcycle racers have a choice, you have one too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regarding NASCAR and helmets, true every NASCAR driver is required to wear some type of helmet.

While most wear a full-face helmet, which covers the entire head and wraps around the mouth and chin. Others do still wear an open-face helmet, which only covers the head. Why not wear the seemingly more protective full-faced one? Those who object claim that a full-face helmet restricts their peripheral vision.

Are the open faced helmets as safe? No. It has been also argued that the late Dale Earnhardt’s insistance to wearing the open face helmet didn't help in his fatal crash.

[korts]

I'm a Navy pilot. For the first nine years of my flying career, I flew with a helmet (Now I fly a nice, tame, multicrew Beech Super King Air and we wear headsets). Believe thee me, those helmets are MILSPEC, which is similar to ASTM/SEI or SNELL. Guess what? If a pilot absolutely cannot get a satisfactory fit from an off-the-shelf helmet, a customized liner can be made for the approved shell. Yes, it is more expensive. But the helmet fits like a glove. How do I know? I had a helmet with the custom, poured liner because I am a long oval, and the stock helmet gave me a hotspot on the front of my forehead. The helmet-fitting folks (yes, there is actually a team of people just for this) tried a lot of different options, but finally sent me out to get the poured liner made. It was the best ever. I am certain that if the H/J market demands it, at least one helmet company will provide such a service.

[Snowbird]

Portia I don't think that is a good attitude at all. People have a chosen discipline they love. And they should be able to make some personal choices. As to the vote well you know as well as I do that only 6 on the Board have any interest at all in our discipline. They are all Members of USHJA which obviously agrees with the rule change proposal.

I think the irritation is a matter of presentation not that the Safety Committee could have done anything more to publicize the rule but the way the Rules are presented on the web with no summaries the average person is overwhelmed. The rule change proposals should be sorted according to discipline and with spacers, summaries and titles. Personally if it were my responsibility I would post the summary and the intention and a link to the whole page of the rule. What is simple for someone with your background can be very tedious to a lay person.

USHJA offered no similar lists to say which of the Rules were of concern to this group before or after their own convention. Since they are our Affiliate I think it was much more their responsibility than that of the USEF.

I know that the Safety Committee did this in a most well intentioned way and really believes that is what should be done. Andrew perhaps could have been more tactful in his response but the facts are the facts.

I have an issue however regarding the extension of liability to show management which has no way to know that the rule is not being followed. I would hate to think that it comes down to external trademarks and was really pleased before when in this sport there was no obvious difference between those with money to burn and the economical types like me. Everyone wore a black,brown or navy velvet helmet and it didn't look much different than one in velveteen.

I think it is totally reasonable to require anyone mounted to wear a helmet and we have enforced that for years. Now however I have concerns about the specific standards. They only refer to the impact rate of the styrofoam lining and the chin strap while I personally think the brim is much more critical for safety.

Thereby comes the issue of increased liabilty risks to the shows and the Federation. If some one is injured by a helmet which has the firm brim but meets the standards the responsibility has been passed to us who are supposed to enforce the rule. How is the show going to enforce the rule and how can they punish someone for breaking the rule?

[oxerdown]

I really do not feel mr. ellis' response was not tactful Snowbird. I think it rather thoughtful that he takes the time to offer his opinion, whether right or wrong. I know you give alot of time too, so don't make it an argument about that. I feel that at least someone is speaking up, and especially in a setting where he is not required to. The COTH booards are certainly not part of his responsibility. I think it is admirable that he takes the time to do so. At least he is standing up for what is right.

[Snowbird]

Agreed see how easy it is to misuse words.

[ser42]

I wonder how many of you opponents of the new helmet rule will complain about Lenny's Law (see other post)....

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The rule change proposals should be sorted according to discipline and with spacers, summaries and titles. Personally if it were my responsibility I would post the summary and the intention and a link to the whole page of the rule. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep. Except for the "spacers" that is all there.

[chawley]

Well, I have to admit I'm one of those adults that show in the old fashioned, strapless helmet, but I'm ok with this new rule.

My question is what brand to you recommend if you don't have hundreds of dollars to spend on a helmut. (I have an oval head.) Thanks!

[Ride'emCO]

I think it'd be a really good idea for one of the bigger tack shops (Dover? EquusNow?) to have an introductory sale for Approveds. Kind of a "Now that you all have to have them, and wear them to show, here's a guide to how different brands fit, and we'll give you 15% off your purchase"... It'd be good marketing/PR for an event such as this...

[Snowbird]

Well the spaces are there with titles so quickly and easily the rules that don't apply can be scanned past by the eye. I agree Janet most of each page is a spacer but it clutters the view. I think they need to reverse the process so that you get the sorted summaries and intentions and then you can click on the ones you want to see completely or even print them out.

As to helmets we recommend the Troxel velvet which comes in an oval shape and fits well. And loose areas can add some rubber inserts inside the lining so they are not visible and won't get lost. They have been the most safety minded company and include with show packets a safety questionaire you should all complete. Cost around $100 and at that price you can afford to chuck it if you have had a fall that impairs the safety factor.

They make a wonderful inexpensive plastic helmet that is ventilated for schooling at home and away.

At $1400 I don't think anyone would chuck their GPA.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think they need to reverse the process so that you get the sorted summaries and intentions and then you can click on the ones you want to see completely or even print them out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am still missing your point.

They ARE sorted. And you can do a "find" with in the page (e.g. on "helmet").

You can click on each one you want to see, and it will be dispalyed in pdf.

Then you select print.

It is a liitle time consuming if you want to print out LOTS of them. But for people only interested in helmet rules, it is dead easy.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As to helmets we recommend the Troxel velvet which comes in an oval shape and fits well. And loose areas can add some rubber inserts inside the lining so they are not visible and won't get lost. They have been the most safety minded company and include with show packets a safety questionaire you should all complete. Cost around $100 and at that price you can afford to chuck it if you have had a fall that impairs the safety factor.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> More than that, if you fall, you can send the helmet for inspection. If it is still good, they will send it back. If it needs to be replaced, they will send you a NEW one for a nominal fee ($25 or $35 IIRC). And YOUR "broken helmet" goes into their database (along with your description of "what happend") to help with future enhancements.

[Snowbird]

The problem is that you wouldn't know to look for helmet if you didn't know there was a rule change proposed for helmets. The thing is Janet that us less sophisticated think differently than computer programers.

BUT I didn't even know I could do a find that way and I play out here all the time. Well never too old to learn something new.

Yes! I'm very impressed with Troxel as a company and they seem very much interested in all the safety issues. I think when a company expresses that much support we should respond by purchasing their products. That's the only way affordable good services will happen and continue.

[BarnField]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tyedyecommando:
I was not a stellar student in Economics ... BUT with supply and demand and everyone having to have these approved helmets, what is to keep to prices from being raised in the interest of making a profit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That will NOT happen. It's like this:

Remember what happened when interest rates dropped to all-time lows? Homeowners everywhere decided to refinance their current loans, or buy a new house (new loan) at the fantastic new low rates. Suddenly mortgage lenders were swamped with customers clamoring to do business... and then it happened all of a sudden the industry was inundated with new mortgage lenders! Tons of people jumped into this lucrative new business of home loans. As a result, yes, there are still a lot of customers, but the competition is still fierce amongst the crowd of new mortgage lenders who have joined the field.

In summary, this is a good thing. You will get more variety in the market.

As a kid, I joined Pony Club right around the time of the new ASTM/SEI requirements. So my mom took me shopping to a tack shop to get a certified helmet. Let me tell you thre was only one kind of certified helmet sitting on the shelf and it was god-awful. We called it the salad-bowl helmet because the inner lining was green satin. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But we bought it b/c it was required by the USPC and it was the only kind available at that time.

So no whining!! Nowadays, you have Troxel, International, Charles Owen, GPA, Tipperary, etc. And with this new rule I predict an even greater market selection in the near future.

[Hilary]

tyedyecommando -since the eventers and the juniors and pony club have been mandating approved helmets for years the manufacturers are just going to ramp up supply.

It is the makers of the unapproved hats who are shaking in their boots b/c people won't be buying them.

And to add to Barnfields comments about old approved helmets - you think the current helmets are big?? My god, these old ones had semi-solid EAR FLAPS and were so big that little kids actually looked like they would fall over if they got a little off balance.

Fortunately, this is no longer the case. I realize I"m just an eventer, but no, I can't tell the difference from 20 paces whether a helmet is approved or not. It's not like approved helmets are fuschia sombreros.

And y'all are welcome to move to NH to express your "don't tell me what to do" needs - no motorcycle helmet laws, no seat belt laws for adults, bait bears, let your kids ride in the back of your pickup (but not your dog).

[ADambra]

There were polls and notices of this online?
The majority of people who will be directly affected by this change do not have the time or means to be surfing the web when they are traveling and working their butts off, supporting the USEF, week after week at shows.

[CBoylen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by akrogirl:
I still have a hard time understanding the fuss. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A large group of people is being asked to change a personal piece of apparal, one which they've been accustomed to wearing for many, many years in some cases. I don't think that's ever been attempted anywhere without a fuss.

I know a lot of people have been saying that the majority of riders ride in approved already. In my experience, that is just not true. The great majority (as in I can think of less than ten exceptions, and those are mostly recent junior graduates) of hunter professionals and amateurs that I see on a regular basis do not ride in approved helmets. I am NOT against the rule, but I think a lot of people are underestimating the scope of the change.

[Coreene]

A great song, courtesy of the Eagles from the Hell Freezes Over album:

Get Over it
Eagles

I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin' 'Don't blame me'
They point their crooked little fingers ar everybody else
Spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma's too thin; your daddy's too fat

Get over it
Get over it
All this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if I gave you some cash
The more I think about it, Old Billy was right
Let's kill all the lawyers, kill 'em tonight
You don't want to work, you want to live like a king
But the big, bad world doesn't owe you a thing

Get over it
Get over it
If you don't want to play, then you might as well split
Get over it, Get over it

It's like going to confession every time I hear you speak
You're makin' the most of your losin' streak
Some call it sick, but I call it weak

You drag it around like a ball and chain
You wallow in the guilt; you wallow in the pain
You wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown
Got your mind in the gutter, bringin' everybody down
Complain about the present and blame it on the past
I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass

Get over it
Get over it
All this bitchin' and moanin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

Get over it
Get over it
It's gotta stop sometime, so why don't you quit
Get over it, get over it

[NumberTenOx]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[findeight]

C.Boylen, we usually are in close agreement but, at least my peer group, the really OOOOLLLLDDD A/A Hunters are about 80% in the new approved helmets.
Most of use figure we've used up most of the luck God gave us in earlier wrecks and now try to protect what's left http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I know it's a change and change can be hard. But not as hard as many of us have faced in our professional lives with downsizing and friends getting a pink slip.

At least this change is intended to protect us from ourselves as well as from inflated costs to show as everybody suffers fear of litigation and the insurance companies keep raising the rates.

This was sometime back in auto racing, certainly involved a different group then NASCAR...but when I was in my mispent youth my best girlfriend dated a tire tester for Firestone-another married Jerry Grant's crew chief(he drove for Dan Gurney). OK they were groupies and I tagged along at a couple of Indy car races. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

There were alot of driver meetings about resolving safety issues. At the same time, multiple Formula One Champ Jackie Stewart was organizing a boycott at F1 races to improve driver safety.

I guess it's because I shared an adult beverage or two with some of these guys when they were fighting to improve driver safety that I was one of the first Adults to get the GPA when my own sport realized the need for improvement in our safety gear.

And, in honor of them and realizing I have had three hard falls in the past 2 years?
I will be one of the first to chuck it and get another. And that hurts since I have been out on short term disability for 10 weeks...but I don't want to add on to that with an avoidable head injury.

I will report on what I find at the WEF vendors that doesn't cost a mortgage payment. Have long, oval head.
We do need to follow the other sports that fought hard for safety.
Only difference is they all cared more about life then looks.

[Lisamarie8]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by akrogirl:
I still have a hard time understanding the fuss. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A large group of people is being asked to change a personal piece of apparal, one which they've been accustomed to wearing for many, many years in some cases. I don't think that's ever been attempted anywhere without a fuss. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

C.Boylen, I totally dig you, but I have to say it has happened; In eventing. First it was approved helmets and then it was body protectors XC, and if you think wearing an approved helmet takes some getting used to, imagine slapping on a Storm Trooper outfit before galloping at 450mpm for 5 minutes. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

i TOTALLY agree that a Patey and a set of hair patties is a pretty thing; much prettier than a chinstrap and a stripe http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif . I'm not saying it isn't a change forced upon you; it is. And I'm not saying that it isn't going to make some people wail "I Don't WAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNAAAAAAAAA", all I'm saying is that maybe the Hunter Princess title isn't gained without reason http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

ok, that last little part was a joke... but it's funny cause it's true.

[sprack]

That just means that we'll have to ride better because we wont look pretty anymore to cover it up http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[CBoylen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:
C.Boylen, we usually are in close agreement but, at least my peer group, the really OOOOLLLLDDD A/A Hunters are about 80% in the new approved helmets. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I left the adults out of my post because I don't generally watch their divisions, and only know a few personally, so I don't have any real impression of how many wear approved versus unapproved. Your observation certainly may be true for any and all sections of adults, but I didn't feel qualified to comment on them.

[Erin]

As usual, Lisamarie is right on. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[findeight]

Actually, many of us Adults wear the approveds at the suggestion of our trainers who know how "well" we ride http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

We need them more.

Actually, when I was younger, it was the wind in my hair. Still is on occasion when I visit my friends with the Arabs and Reined Cow Horses.

So I am really no goody two shoes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But, at home when the barn requires it, only too happy to comply-much farther to fall and alot more likely them with those sub 15 handers that stay low to the ground.

[just_me]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chawley:
Well, I have to admit I'm one of those adults that show in the old fashioned, strapless helmet, but I'm ok with this new rule.

My question is what brand to you recommend if you don't have hundreds of dollars to spend on a helmut. (I have an oval head.) Thanks! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Troxel's velvet helmet comes in an oval shape. My daughter has one and it fits her much better than the round shape.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lisamarie8:
C.Boylen, I totally dig you, but I have to say it _has_ happened; In eventing. First it was approved helmets and then it was body protectors XC, and if you think wearing an approved helmet takes some getting used to, imagine slapping on a Storm Trooper outfit before galloping at 450mpm for 5 minutes. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

i TOTALLY agree that a Patey and a set of hair patties is a pretty thing; much prettier than a chinstrap and a stripe http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif . I'm not saying it isn't a change forced upon you; it is. And I'm not saying that it isn't going to make some people wail "I Don't WAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNAAAAAAAAA", all I'm saying is that maybe the Hunter __Princess__ title isn't gained without reason http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

ok, that last little part was a joke... but it's funny cause it's true. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, first of all, Princess Leia and I take exception to that remark... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But just to stick up for Chanda (who, like, so needs my help http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), she was on record back at the beginning of the thread saying that she didn't have a problem with the rule, and it was the right thing for the organization to do. But she's absolutely right that a lot of people are not going to be thrilled about the change.

You're right, in that it HAS happened, and people will simply have to cope. She's just pointing out that there are 5 stages of grief, and a lot of folks are still stuck in Denial, Anger and Bargaining. It's a bit early for Depression, and way too soon for Acceptance. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Your storm trooper analogy has just scared me off eventing, btw... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Lisamarie8]

Oh, DMK, I wasn't making a personal comment about Chanda and calling her a princes (I mean unless she wants me too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). I saw her earlier post and have always thought her to be pretty together when it comes to the logistics and realities of the horse world.

I also understand that it will take some time for hunter peeps to accept, I'm sure it will (although i do think some could be going a little more gracefully into that goodnight http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif ). I was just mentioning that it has happened before and I can't think of one uproar about the safety regulation in the eventing world. We were all like "Ummm, OK, If you say so." Now try to take out Steeplechase, and you'll see some eventers pitch a fit. We're not beyond that!

Now, on another even MORE important note. I had no idea you and Leia were so close. I can only hope that she's not giving you hairstyle tips. I mean the sticky bun hair-do had its place, but how in the WORLD are you going to get an approved over that sort of structure?!

ps - Erin, I aim to please http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[2ndyrgal]

Ok, since I'm 1. old, 2. stubborn, 3. Just returning to the show ring, 4.Have a big, long, oval head, what is the most flattering approved show helmet available. I will be showing my green horse, but am a quite mature adult rider (who apparently just spent way too much on a Patey). Grudgingly looking for help here (and God save me from anything with a stripe down the center.) Price is not a problem, (married well).

[Duffy]

2ndyrgal - the Charles Owen helmets definitely seem to fit the long oval shape better than some others, plus there are models sans stripes. Good luck! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lisamarie8:
(although i do think some could be going a little more gracefully into that goodnight http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif ). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee... Ya think? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

As for Leia, we had a real falling out when I tried to snag her hubby. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Yes, I knew you were all cool with Chanda, but I just wanted everyone to have the whole picture, because I am so like, about being in everybody's business, ya know. Oh yea, and I was also trying to delay going out to the barn in the misty, rainy, disgusting (albeit not as disgusting as Points North on the eastern seaboard) weather!

[Hopeful Hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sprack:
That just means that we'll have to ride better because we wont look pretty anymore to cover it up http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having NEVER had the honor of looking pretty on a horse, thankfully this won't matter. And for the record, I've worn a helmet - unapproved but a "hard hat" when that's all there was, then approved when I ventured back onto a horse - since the first time I sat on one. I think this is a GREAT rule myself, but I do agree that I hope it leads to more choice and even higher safety standards.

[radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA]

The GPA Textium has a long oval fit 2ndyrgal. Shell is the same as the regular GPA but the padding inside is conformed for a long oval head.

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Especially if you were GPA and had THE must have product. Your product no longer has to compete in style or price with unapproved and the selling point is no longer safety, but requirement.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Already happening - GPA and Charles Owen helmets are being copied by other mfg. and sell for less money. Just like the TS breeches are copied by lower priced mfg. So, yeah, you have your top say, 10% of buyers who will pay whatever for the brand, but then the other 90% can pay less and have the same look, but not the brand - make sense?

[Magnolia]

OK, so last night I was watching pro bullriding on TV - top riders, all "macho" all wearing safety vests. Maybe 5% wearing helmets. the announcer commented that the helmets would be more and more common, as it only took a few years for the safety vests to catch on. Now, if the macho marlboro men of the world can ditch their traditional sexy cowboy hats for a brain bucket, SURELY hunter riders can start wearing a Charles Owen very traditionally styled cap without too much fuss.

[ABBA]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by akrogirl:
I still have a hard time understanding the fuss. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know a lot of people have been saying that the majority of riders ride in approved already. In my experience, that is just not true. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nor true in my experience. If you are out and about at rated shows every week, you would understand why Chanda and I share this sentiment.

[daytimedrama]

I personally can't see John French wearing a GPA, or many of the other hunter porfessionals.

[Coreene]

Yet almost all the leading foreign riders do. By choice. Without complaint. And, in Athens, had those fab flags on their GPA stripes.

[Madame Butterfly]

We complain too much, don't we...

[J4J]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madame Butterfly:
We complain too much, don't we... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>yes. its just a helmet, who cares. we should be happy everyone will be more safe, not upset your head will look different.

personally, when i see someone with a possibly "useless" helmet, it gives me a negative impression of that rider. when i see someone with a GPA (etc), i'm impressed they have the good sense to protect their precious brain.

riding should be about talent, not looks

BTW after you crack your helmet in a gnarly fall, you'll stop the whining present in this thread.

and is there EVER a valid arguement that proves being safe isn't necessary? a reason you shouldn't do things to protect yourself from serious injury? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

stating other sports/activities not requiring helmets is NOT a valid arguement of why we shouldn't have to. its comparing apples to oranges.

it worries me that anyone is whining about wearing a helmet that can save their life. reality check! we don't live in a perfect world- sh*t happens, so prepare for it.

i honestly don't get it. WHY WOULD YOU NOT PROTECT YOUR SAFETY?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

someone please explain (in a clear, direct manner) why you don't agree with me

[Davey Jones' Locker]

I think it's interesting that Equitalk is so passionate about this new helmet ruling, yet at the Raleigh Winter I, there were SEVERAL JUNIORS warming up sans approved helmets Friday evening in the indoor; not just on the flat, over fences as well.

Isn't there already a ruling that Juniors wear approved helmets?

[radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA]

DJlocker, yes, Jr.'s must wear approved, properly fastened while mounted on show grounds. But I bet you already know that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Seems European riders have been using a safety standard for quite some time. The British as well. Their's reportedly is more demanding than what we currently are requesting...

[baileygreyhorse]

I have a question here. I'm not trying to be snarky, really.
What do you folks ride in at home? Approved, non-approved, baseball cap? If you board, how does your barn allow riding without a helmet?

[LulaBell]

In answer to baileygrayhorse's questions, here goes:

-At home, I could ride in nothing if I wanted to. Over 18, just doesn't matter. I tend ride in an unapproved hunt cap w/the clear harness.

-At school, I HAVE to ride in an approved. I had a Troxel, but clearly spending only $100 on a helmet entitled it to break after only 3 months of use. I bought a Charles Owen Hampton yesterday. I LOVE IT. The most comfortable thing I've ever put on my head.

At home, juniors need to be in a helmet, approved or unapproved. At school, EVERYONE must be in an approved (IHSA rules).

[Equitalk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Davey Jones' Locker:
I think it's interesting that Equitalk is so passionate about this new helmet ruling, yet at the Raleigh Winter I, there were SEVERAL JUNIORS warming up sans approved helmets Friday evening in the indoor; not just on the flat, over fences as well.

Isn't there already a ruling that Juniors wear approved helmets? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes there is a rule that requires juniors to wear appropriate head gear. If it had been brought to my attention I would have dealt with it immediately. The enforcement of this rule and all others is the responsibility of all USEF members, not just show management. Instead of posting here to make a point you should have brought it to the attention of management or the show steward.

[oxerdown]

I think it is rather odd that you watched rules being broken and did not let anyone know.

I saw Equitalk telling kids to tighten up their chin straps today at the show.

[Snowbird]

There in is the most important issue we've discussed. We should not rely on the USEF or Show Management alone to enforce the rules.

Each and every member has a contract they signed when they entered the show saying they would not violate any rules. Each and every competitor is equally responsible to help enforce them. If that child got hurt who was not wearing the appropriate head gear would you not feel guilty and partially responsible?

The Steward is not an "Enforcement Officer", they are an advisor who is responsible for knowing the rules and reporting those who break the rules. As an agent of USEF they have been granted a License for their knowledge, they were not granted police authority.

[radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA]

Amen Snowbird!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif But guess it's like our society these days. People don't get involved, they sit back, point fingers and watch. But thats a whole nother topic..

[Snowbird]

But Radio talk it's our job if we have accepted "leadership" to motivate them and to get them to understand that this is all a mutual endeavor.

We should never accept the inevitability of apathy and cynicism. I understand that it takes longer and it's more difficult to help people feel imvolved enough to take a stand.

I remember the "malaise" that caused Jimmy Carter to whine; and then the turn around when Reagan made the citizens feel better about themselves. We can do it!

Monarchy was so successful for so long because the King was a Committee of one and there was no debate about any issue. We need to find ways to make the Competitors realize they are one third of the partnership between Professionals, Amateurs and Show Management.

Without that partnership there can never be a "Fair and Level" playing field or a safe competition.

[Justbay]

You know, when I was at the show Weds-Friday, I saw Andrew working in the horseshow office, on the grounds and with the jump crew. I do not know if he had time to stand at the ingate to be the helmet police for junior riders during the evening schooling sessions. If it bothered you, then you should have brought it to his attention at the time instead of waiting to post on the COTH BB.

[radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA]

Equitalk, has the safety committee looked into the standards set by other countries? These helmets are British http://www.horsedata.biz/ They're called Horka Helmets.

Would they be accepted by the USEF?

[radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA]

Sorry for the double post, but the edit icon is now missing..

If that site doesn't work try http://www.horsedata.co.uk/hats.asp

[Kestrel]

If you do a search, there was a thread talking about the different standards and mentioning that some of the helmets that passed the British test did not pass the ASTM. Others who have better memories than I may be able to point you to the right place.

[Davey Jones' Locker]

"Instead of posting here to make a point you should have brought it to the attention of management or the show steward"

Well, I figured with Andrew watching the warm-up, if something was going to be done, it would have been done.

A bit defensive? Gee. Sorry. I figured if you were truly unaware it was happening, you'd be taking the responsibility, not trying to place blame on the person pointing it out.

[Equitalk]

I certainly am not trying to be defensive or angry about your post.

I just want to explain that if you saw me watching a somewhat congested schooling area and I did not see someone wearing proper head gear, I would prefer that you would have brought it to my attention. My main concern at the time was keeping an eye on the few pony kids who had migrated over from the covered ring to school amongst the horses.

I will also add that at times it is very hard to tell juniors and young adults apart. Many times at shows I have questioned riders as to where their ASTM-SEI helmet is, only to be informed that they are in the adults etc.

I certainly hope management. officials, and competitor's will continue to work together in the application and enforcement of all USEF rules.

I will also add that if a trainer allows their junior rider to school in an unapproved helmet at a USEF show not only are they violating the rules, they also place themselves into a very vunerable position legally if an accident were to happen.

I would expect when the new rule goes into effect Dec 1, 2005 that the enforcement would actually be easier. We will not have to sort out peoples ages. They will all have them on when schooling and/or showing over fences.

[Davey Jones' Locker]

Equitalk, I appreciate your post. I can understand how it may be difficult to tell adults from juniors apart.

I was so stunned by the three juniors (I knew they were based on one of the kids' mothers' comment) because on of them posts on COTH and I am certain she is aware of the rule. I mistakely thought that you had seen the three girls in question and had erroneously assumed (yes, I am aware of what that word breaks down to http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) that if nothing was being done, it didn't matter to you.

Other than that, the show appeared to run smoothly.

[radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA]

Kestrel, the British as with us are all going for better. The new standard is BS EN 1384 A.S.T.M. minimum. They have stated all children of 14 yrs. and under must wear this approval. My questions is will this also be approved by the USEF?

All easily found with a search, not on COTH tho. Using a search engine on the internet.

[Snowbird]

Radio talk are you suggesting there is something on the web besides this Forum. I had no idea. You make my point that there is really no way any of us can be sure and therefore the rule while well intentioned can be evaded.A rule that can be evaded is not enforceable.

What is enfoceable is the contract that every competitor makes with the USEF and show management to abide by all rules. If the Professional who is standing in Loco-Parentis for the Junior is held responsible you bet they won't suggest the rules get broken.If the adult who chooses to evade the rules is the one fined or worse whos points are voided for that show; you can bet they will follow the rules.

As I said to someone earlier this week:
<span class="ev_code_red">Who does the crime...pays the FINE!</span>

[Justbay]

About enforcement at ringside, all I can add is that my husband competes in Triathalons and Cycles competively. Being in the medical field and very aware of the statistics associated with the injuries in our sport, as well as others, I will tell you what he had to add tonight to the discussion.

At all events that he attends, before he is allowed to pick up his "number", his "approved" helmet must be examined, as well as his other safety gear, including his bike. Or no number, and no competition.

Do we really want to get to that point by complaining about this ruling that has passed?
I cannot imagine the horsewhow office having to do one more thing such as inspecting my helmet. Much less at the ingate.

Personally, I am ready to move on about this helmet thing and my pretty ones will become decorations?? I guess. Sheesh, you can get pulled over by the cops for not wearing your seatbelt in a car in Virginia- even in the back seat, coming soon, I think.

[Coreene]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by radio talk:
These helmets are British http://www.horsedata.biz/ They're called Horka Helmets. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not that it really matters, but Horka helmets are Dutch, not British.

[RoyalTRider]

I defintally disagree that this is- on the whole- unenforcable. It may be that each person cannot be checked upon entering the ring for how his actual helmet is certified, but (and correct me if I'm wrong) it seems that at least it would be easy to tell if the person was wearing a helmet *likely* to be approved- in other words, it's not at all difficult to say, "Okay, no straps on that helmet, it's unapproved." Is that correct? So, while maybe it wouldn't be easily possible to check each helmet for its own certifications, a quick glace would at least tell if it's defintally unapproved.

[Madeline]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RoyalTRider:
I defintally disagree that this is- on the whole- unenforcable. It may be that each person cannot be checked upon entering the ring for how his actual helmet is certified, but (and correct me if I'm wrong) it seems that at least it would be easy to tell if the person was wearing a helmet *likely* to be approved- in other words, it's not at all difficult to say, "Okay, no straps on that helmet, it's unapproved." Is that correct? So, while maybe it wouldn't be easily possible to check each helmet for its own certifications, a quick glace would at least tell if it's defintally unapproved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cops don't have to stop every car to cut down on speeding... If the steward were to check helmets at the ingate for 3 or 4 unannounced five minute sessions a day and scratch the non compliant from that class (of course with no refund), compliance would happen pretty fast. Increase the penalty (scratch from the division, levy a substantial fine) and compliance would happen even more quickly.

So simple. Just takes balls on the part of the show management.

[Snowbird]

The USEF can require the Steward to do that and report to them after the show in their report. Why is it show management? We don't have the right to search private property. We're not covered by the laws that protect the USEF from enforcing a personal search process which would violate the privacy laws.

I also don't have the right to check the trailers for illegal substances.

Yes! we can say there is no chin strap or there has to be a helmet. We can't speculate without due cause or infringe on anyone's civil rights whether a junior or an adult. That a helmet doesn't look like one that meets the standards. We can't certify that the helmet has not been bought used and was in crash. You can't ask Show Management to stick their neck out all alone with no back-up.

I don't want to have an employee who certifies the helmet is appropriate and then there is an accident and I get sued for not having prevented the accident because my employee told them the helmet met standards. Excuse me but its not "balls" that would take, it would be serious dementia.

I wrote the New Jersey Equine Activity Law and even I couldn't get that past it in a gross negligence suit. Do you have any idea the law suits that would happen if we started preventing people from competing because we illegally decided their helmet didn't meet the standards? Even if the USEF required a copy of a bill indicating they purchased the required helmet they can prove that it was the one being worn. This is exactly why so many states have repealed the helmet law AND, they're immune from tort claims.

[radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA]

And that Snowbird works both ways.. Can you imagine a steward actting like the police? They're independent contractors. The USEF stood there at the convention and told managers & officials, you are on your own. We don't have the $$$'s to back it all up if you end up in a lawsuit. Sooo, my question is, yes we have rules, but someone somewhere needs to be able to CYA the people who inforce them.

[Madeline]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
The USEF can require the Steward to do that and report to them after the show in their report. Why is it show management? We don't have the right to search private property. We're not covered by the laws that protect the USEF from enforcing a personal search process which would violate the privacy laws. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why show management? Simple. It's your ass on the line. You say you're going to run in accordance with a set of rules, you have every right (and obligation) to enforce them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yes! we can say there is no chin strap or there has to be a helmet. We can't speculate without due cause or infringe on anyone's civil rights whether a junior or an adult. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bull. There are rules, you can check for compliance.The civil rights argument doesn't hold water because the competitors are voluntarily (more than that, paying for the privilege of) competing. They gave up those particular civil rights when they agreed to play by the rules.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> That a helmet doesn't look like one that meets the standards. We can't certify that the helmet has not been bought used and was in crash. You can't ask Show Management to stick their neck out all alone with no back-up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All true, unfortunately. No one can legislate against stupidity. But if, as a show manager, you have ascertained that the helmet carried the appropriate certifications and is fastened correctly, you've done your job. If the helmet is broken, that's not your fault.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don't want to have an employee who certifies the helmet is appropriate and then there is an accident and I get sued for not having prevented the accident because my employee told them the helmet met standards. Excuse me but its not "balls" that would take, it would be serious dementia. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Failure to even attempt to enforce the rules will leave you wide open for legal reprisal.
The "balls" involves standing up to trainers and telling them (and their clients) to play by the rules. Punishing as necessary.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wrote the New Jersey Equine Activity Law and even I couldn't get that past it in a gross negligence suit. Do you have any idea the law suits that would happen if we started preventing people from competing because we illegally decided their helmet didn't meet the standards? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you have any idea the lawsuits that would follow if a few Hunter Princesses get their brains scrambled in unapproved helmets and exhibitor after exhibitor testifies that no one ever checked?

Again, if wearing an approved helmet is one of the rules for competing, and you choose to compete, the burden of enforcement falls to the organizers. All the "civil rights" in the world are out of play, as there is NOTHING public about competing in a horse show. Look to other sports- Nascar, bike racing,ski racing, motorcycle racing- they all have helmet rules that are enforced fairly rigorously. Nobody squeaks about "rights." It's your playground, and USEF has made it your job to enforce the rules you've agreed to.

USEF has acted responsibly by passing a rule that is only a few decades late. By requiring it of all competitors in jumping/schooling activities, they've made enforcement easier. But the burden shifts to show managementsimply because they're the ones on the spot to enforce (or not).

Just like Federal mandates that pass without funding to make them happen, show managers are going to have to find a way to make this rule happen or they will open themselves up to the ministrations of the PI lawyers who advertise on TV...

[Snowbird]

The weakness in your argument is that no rule gives us the right to inspect the inside of the helmet on someone's head any more than we have a right to open and search their pocket book.

We are not likely to lose a law suit for negligence unless we have told someone they are safe. There is no guarantee implied or otherwise by any helmet manufacturer that your brains won't get scrambled even if you are wearing the proper helmet.

Equine Activity Law works because it says that "horses are inherently dangerous" and that you could die as a result of riding one because they are unpredictable animals. When the signs are posted and the waivers signed it is an acceptance of risk. When we interfere with that then we create a problem where one doesn't need to exist.

All an approved helmet is is a lined helemt that can resist impact at whatever established speed and distance. It has the chin strap in one piece so that it should not break. My waivers give responsibility and liability to the adult standing in loco parentis or in the case of an adult to themselves. I do not want that weakened by establishing an unenforceable standard.

Yes! Everyone mounted should wear a helmet with a chinstrap. It should meet the standards but that is their responsibility and not mine. It would only be mine if I supplied the helmet.

[pinkhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriosoJorge:
May I just say that all the people who attempt to shock people into wearing an approved are way off the mark, and are in fact quite rude?

Would you tell an adult to quit smoking? Would you tell an adult to fasten his or her seatbelt in his or her own car? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just catching up where I left off with this thread a couple of weeks ago.

In answer to your questions: Yes and Yes. In fact, the research tells me that the more I tell an adult to quit smoking the more likely they will be to do so.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Should be interesting because I know a lot of amateurs down here, and many pros hate those damn "skunk" helmets. I always said if some of them get one, I might consider it.
Why is there so much month left at the end of the money? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm, "Does the word 'Duh' mean anything to you?"


OK, I've made it though the thread to now.

Someone made a good point in asking, "Why do people get so worked up about this?" Really it made me question why the heck I care if someone else doesn't wear an approved helmet. Well, partly because I've had 4 head injuries with and without approved helmets and I believe that both times I fell in approveds they had been broken already in falls during which I was not injured. As others have said more eloquently than I, and partly because they've got long-term sequelae more severe than I, life is just not the same afterward. I'm not saying this for shock value. It's just the truth. And I don't wish it on anyone. No one at all.

Secondly because it's what I do for a living. I spend a lot of energy working with people to improve and maintain their health status. So I guess it just carries over into the sport I love. (And yes, occasionally I do use a little shock value in my job. I am constantly amazed at how well it works. I never like to do it but once or twice a year other words just fail me.)

Third, I guess the "excuses" people use for why they don't want to wear approved helmets just make no rational sense. That's fine, that's what excuses are for. (People give me lots of good excuses for why they shouldn't test their blood sugars and take their insulin too.) But take your excuses and learn something from them. What are they really telling you? Fashion? You don't think you look good in an approved helmet? Then go shopping. Don't be embarassed if the one you look the best in is the $50 one at State Line and not the Charles Owen. And as someone else said, not many of us look that great in tight pants either. Anyway, as the person I so nicely quoted above said, if the people around him/her wore them s/he would too. And I just can't imagine that it's that big a deal, as Chandra intimated, for a bunch of people to go out and buy a new helmet. For (put in your deity's name here)'s sake, aren't horse people always looking for an excuse to buy something new?

I'm a pretty sensitive girl. I hate being flamed. But this is one of those issues I don't care if you flame me on or not. I would just appreciate honesty in people's responses. There's so much "I don't wanna" here - the same as we saw a few years ago with the kids. Now they're here telling the grown-ups to get over themselves. And all the grown-ups will. In December. Then, if you want to be rebellious you can buy a $400 helmet and dash it on the ground a few times and then continue to ride in your useless fashionable helmet. (Oh, and I promised myself I wasn't going to do that!!!! Hee Hee.)

[findeight]

I know.......It's soon to be Groundhog Day.

That's why this post is STILL on page one http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Seriously folks, Anybody can tell the difference between an approved and an unapproved at 50 yards.

But few can tell the difference between a rider who had a birthday before Dec 1 and one who turned after the year started. They are both the same actual age at the moment yet one rides as an Adult while the other is still a "Child" for show purposes...and they both probably still go to the shows with Mom.

This will be a lot easier when all have to wear the approveds.

My home barn mirrors the show rules(insurance) and I think everybody has switched to the approveds already.

[wtywmn4]

Pinkhorse, by dashing one's $400 helmet on the ground Dec 1, you won't be able to ride at a USEF show over fences. Pretty or not, you will have to replace said helmet. Plus who's to say MS. Susie Q is riding in an over fences class. Only if the powers that be are standing at the gate, to check. Or standing in the schooling area to check there too.

Our barn has been wearing approveds since it was mandated for Jr's. The trainers all wear them, hacking or not. It's the barn's policy. We should be able to get thru this. With everyone worried about litigation, I would hope the legal people would come up with an answer to best cover everyone.

[OHF]

So.... I guess we each need a back up helmet incase we get dumped on our first trip.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Zaboobafoo]

I am guessing that the rule will be fully enforced in the show by judges not pinning(ie, disqualifying) those refusing to let go of the classic hunt caps.

Those of us at the Met this year saw that happen to Peter Pletcher in the open speed class, when he was unaware it was running under FEI rules and he wore his hunt cap.

As for me, I am not happy! I now have to go out and spend $500 plus on a helmet(cause the only approved I will wear is a jeweled GPA) when I show and jump VERY rarely. I mostly ride sans helmet or with a b-ball cap, and with my hunt cap when I am jumping or hacking in the schooling areas at a show.

But, its all moot anyway, because the rule has passed and there is nothing we can do. I just better start saving now for the next time I see Jenny Oz and put in my order for a new hat....

[apachepony]

Why in the world would it be illegal to ask to see someone's helmet before they go in a class? It's THE RULE!! And if you politely ask and they say no, then they are politely scratched from the class. They get their money back. Big deal. Who can sue over that. Why would you sue over enforcing a well known rule anyway???

[radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA]

Cause having someone look in your helmet is not a rule. You must wear is how the rule reads. So just walking up and asking to see a helmet, is not exactly in the realm of things management can do without repurcussions.

[asterix]

Gosh, I keep telling myself I won't do this, but I can't help myself...
At the recognized events that I do there are a whole boatload of equipment "rules" -- length of spurs, type of bit for dressage, no boots/wraps for dressage, approved helmet for jumping, vest for xc, etc.
ANY of these can be checked by event officials -- they can (and usually do) check the bit, and can and do stop competitors from running a phase if they are wearing illegal equipment. Do they look inside everyone's helmet? No.
Are there people who "sneak through" wearing an unapproved. No doubt. But if an official wants to see your equipment to make sure it fits the rules (whether that means "how long are your spurs" or "does the helmet have an 'approved' label" is irrelevant), they ask, you comply.

I am still befuzzled by this. If you really want to spend 500 bucks on a star-spangled GPA, it's a free country. In order to comply with this rule, however, you only need to spend 50 bucks to protect your head. Anything over that is personal preference.

[radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA]

Asterix, where can you spend $50 to get an approved? Seriously, think we would all be interested. Haven't seen anything even remotely close.

The main issue is that the h/j world seems to have more people interested in litigating than other desciplines. If rules had been put in force across the board, there might not be such heated debate. But since we are doing it, bit by bit, and hunting being the format the hunter world was supposed to follow, people are not ready to quite give it all up. Plus not having something in print to give competitors at the beginning of the year, seems to have upset many. When everyone says, how come you all don't get it, they should come and watch a h/j show. People sign the release on the back of the entry blank, yet go about doing whatever as if they haven't seen or read any of it. Its quite amazing really...

[pinkhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wtywmn4:
Pinkhorse, by dashing one's $400 helmet on the ground Dec 1, you won't be able to ride at a USEF show over fences. Pretty or not, you will have to replace said helmet.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I know that. That's what I'm saying - if someone wants to be rebellious they can just discretely break their approved helmet, the show officials can think that they're riding in an approved and yet they can know in their heart of hearts they're still riding in an unapproved if it makes them feel better. I guess the irony didn't come across.

[asterix]

Well, for example,
http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1%2D36006

54.90 at Dover.

Trust me, as a cheapie eventer, we would all be squawking if there was a rule that required us to spend hundreds of bucks on a helmet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Thanks for the "culture" commentary -- that is the part that is really hard for us other discipline types to understand, and we are trying!!!

[PiedPiper]

radio talk
I think quite honestly you guys may just be behind the times on it is all. These safety rules have been passed in eventing and some in dressage for years now and if it can be done smoothly in either discipline I am having a hard time understanding why it will be a big deal in the h/j world. Bit checks are mandatory in dressage in both discipline and everyone gets checked without holding things up or slowing times down.

I guess I am having a hard time understanding why there is such outrage to these safety rules in the h/j world? The helmet, leg wraps, etc are all for the benefit of horse and rider and you would think that they are proposing whippings and other horrors with the way everyone is carrying on. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And these are all rules that have been already passed in similar disciplines.

I do understand it is the ending of an era but in all reality isn't it for the best? It is only while showing so no one is mandating how you ride at home and it is really only for a few minutes just while you are jumping. The rest of the time do what ever you want.

And trust me you do not need to spend 400 bucks on a helmet. There are so many choices that are much cheaper than that.

[radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA]

Thank you so much Asterix!!! That looks quite nice, and boy the price is truly amazing. Hadn't seen that one. Have to see if any of the tack shops have it, if not, will order it and try it out.

Yes, maybe h/j are behind the times. But they have pretty much run themselves for years. This is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to get thru. Now, as they see it, big brother is dictating. This immediately gets the hackels up. It's rudimentory my dear Watson. Has nothing to do with the issue, it has to do with being told. Many trainers unfortunately have experienced first hand, these head injuries with their clients. One of the strongest reasons this is being pushed so hard.

Pinkhorse you're right, sorry I missed the irony. But think that it will be very obvious if its an unapproved. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif