Lymphangitis, synovitis, or cellulitis of the lower hind leg? UPDATE with new pics, p.4...

[hansiska]

When I bought my new mare I was told she had a tendency to stock up in one of her back legs. As it turns out, this "stocking up" is like none I've seen before. It's not soft, which makes me doubt it's edema at all, and it doesn't change according to amount of exercise or turnout.

In fact, the mare's entire lower leg is enlarged, hard, and cold. Despite this, it seems not to bother her. She gets around fine. She isn't lame. She has no fever or other symptoms and overall she's perky, happy, and eats well. It's clear to me that her leg has been like this for a long time, possibly years.

My first guess was that it's a lymphatic problem somehow caused by a rough foaling, but my farrier thinks it's the result of a wound or injury. I've done some research and it does seem like she's right; the leg fits the description of "exhuberant granulation" or proud flesh formed after a mismanaged wound.

We do have a vet appointment scheduled and I will have the leg examined, but I wanted to ask everyone here about it first. Has anyone had experience with this? What treatments are there? What did you do? What do you recommend?

[This message was edited by hansiska on Feb. 11, 2004 at 03:27 PM.]

[This message was edited by hansiska on Feb. 12, 2004 at 04:29 PM.]

[This message was edited by hansiska on Feb. 23, 2004 at 08:17 AM.]

[This message was edited by hansiska on Feb. 23, 2004 at 11:00 AM.]

[hansiska]

When I bought my new mare I was told she had a tendency to stock up in one of her back legs. As it turns out, this "stocking up" is like none I've seen before. It's not soft, which makes me doubt it's edema at all, and it doesn't change according to amount of exercise or turnout.

In fact, the mare's entire lower leg is enlarged, hard, and cold. Despite this, it seems not to bother her. She gets around fine. She isn't lame. She has no fever or other symptoms and overall she's perky, happy, and eats well. It's clear to me that her leg has been like this for a long time, possibly years.

My first guess was that it's a lymphatic problem somehow caused by a rough foaling, but my farrier thinks it's the result of a wound or injury. I've done some research and it does seem like she's right; the leg fits the description of "exhuberant granulation" or proud flesh formed after a mismanaged wound.

We do have a vet appointment scheduled and I will have the leg examined, but I wanted to ask everyone here about it first. Has anyone had experience with this? What treatments are there? What did you do? What do you recommend?

[This message was edited by hansiska on Feb. 11, 2004 at 03:27 PM.]

[This message was edited by hansiska on Feb. 12, 2004 at 04:29 PM.]

[This message was edited by hansiska on Feb. 23, 2004 at 08:17 AM.]

[This message was edited by hansiska on Feb. 23, 2004 at 11:00 AM.]

[hansiska]

Here's a pic.

[Pol]

Did it look like THAT when you BOUGHT her? Yikes. I have no answers, but can't WAIT to hear what your vet has to say on the subject...What did they say when you had her vetted? Details, please!

[JB]

Do you have a bigger picture? From the glimpse of this small picture, it looks like it could be something akin to synovitis - inflammation of the synovial sheath/joint capsule. Does it look anything like this (http://www.equestriangardener.homestead.com/files/rio/rioswollenfetlock.jpg)? Villonodular synovitis is inflammation of the inner lining of the joint capsule and is what we thought Rio had, but he has been determined to have a damaged lymphatic system in his leg from his injury in April.

[hansiska]

Pol -- I'm quite comfortable with the fact that I did not have her vetted, though I understand that others may disapprove of my decision. Her previous owner (honest and reputable), her price (unbelievable), her bloodlines (phenomenal), and her purpose (broodmare), to me, made a prepurchase unecessary. I was aware she had a leg issue and now I'm interested in trying to make her more comfortable.

JB -- sorry I don't yet have a bigger picture, but thanks for yours. I've been busily researching (villonodular) synovitis since I saw your post. Thanks. It's a possibility, and new to me. What makes me wonder about it as a possibility is the fact that my mare's leg is swollen almost from the coronet band to the hock and the swelling (if I'm visualizing it correctly) is asymmetrical. Would synovitis always be symmetrical and confined to the joint, as it seems in your picture?

I'm now rethinking the notion of proud flesh -- the leg has none of the "cauliflower" look of proud flesh, although the tissue certainly seems granulated.

More thoughts?

[JB]

If there is hair there than you can discount proud flesh - hair won't grow on top of that.

Synovitis doesn't have to be symmetrical. Rio's was (is) symmetrical in a front-back manner, but not side to side. I've seen other pictures where the swelling was totally to one side.

Have you experimented with wrapping the leg? If so, does the swelling go down? The fact that she is sound is good news. Even when Rio's leg looks like it did in that picture, he's totally sound. Sometimes the problem is purely cosmetic. The Horse has a couple of good articles on this - shouldn't be hard to find them.

You could simply be dealing with (as we are) lymphatic damage. If that's the case, give me another 6 months and I'll tell you if we beat it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[hansiska]

Yep, she's got hair. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

No, I haven't experimented with wrapping. My first thought was cold hosing or soaking with epsom salts and it's just been too cold for that. I've found some articles on lymphangitis and they really scared me! I will check further for articles on lymphatic damage.

What is your wrapping routine? Do you poultice at all? Do you use any type of cream or medication under the wrap?

Thanks for these suggestions, JB. (Check your email, BTW).

[JanWeber]

Did you buy your mare from a hunter barn in NJ? If so, she may be one I looked at: M&S jumper, no soundness issues, but UGLY hind legs. The mother of the kid who owned her told me that she'd been cast in her stall as a baby and the leg deformity was the result.

[hansiska]

I just found a great article (http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.asp?fid=223&dpt=6&textfield=lymph) on lymphangitis, or "fat leg". JB, you'll find this excerpt interesting (you've probably already read it):
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Rose and Hodgson found that cold hosing and pressure bandaging sometimes were helpful in the early stages of the condition. Some cases, they noted, will improve temporarily following exercise, and some will resolve spontaneously with rest.

Not surprisingly, the two researchers conclude their discussion of lymphangitis with this statement: "Lymphangitis is a frustrating condition to treat."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I find it especially interesting that the condition is described as somewhat rare, can be caused by poor conditions -- or not -- and can heal in days, weeks, or become chronic. In other words, it's weird! Seems to have a mind of its own. Of course, the symptoms describe my mare to a tee.

Anyone else have experience with this?

Cellulitis is also mentioned in the article. Does anyone have experience with that?

[Dianna]

It might be interesting to see if you did a nice DMSO/furacin sweat on the leg ... what the outcome would be. If you are not comfortable setting a sweat, see if there is somebody at your barn that can do it for you.

[hansiska]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Umm... my horses are turned out on two acres and have a lovely shed. It's just us. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Can you describe the furacin/DMSO sweat for me? I can follow directions well and probably have most of the materials on hand (I am a worrywort and have enough bandage materials to wrap an army).

Edited to add: JanWeber -- no, she's not from NJ or a jumper. She's been a broodmare all her life.

[This message was edited by hansiska on Feb. 11, 2004 at 04:10 PM.]

[hansiska]

Hold on -- I found this recipe on the internet. Does this sound right?

Leg Sweat
You can use a sweat instead of a poultice to help reduce lower leg swelling, like stocking up or when a vet directs you to 'sweat' an injury.

Ingredients:
Furacin Liquid or Ointment
Medical-grade DMSO

Instructions:
Mix equal parts. Apply to leg. Cover area loosely with plastic kitchen wrap, conforming the plastic to the leg. Apply a standard bandage over the site. As a rule of thumb leave the sweat on for 12 hours. Then unwrap, rinse and allow to 'rest' for 12 hours, then re-apply a sweat for another 12 hours. Repeat as needed or directed.

NOTE - When DMSO is mixed with water or applied to wet skin it undergoes a chemical reaction and releases a lot of heat. This could irritate a horse's skin. Also wear gloves when using DMSO. Whatever you mix with DMSO is absorbed through the skin so be careful when using it. Research DMSO before you use this recipe.

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hansiska:
Yep, she's got hair. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

No, I haven't experimented with wrapping. My first thought was cold hosing or soaking with epsom salts and it's just been too cold for that. I've found some articles on lymphangitis and they really scared me! I will check further for articles on lymphatic damage.

What is your wrapping routine? Do you poultice at all? Do you use any type of cream or medication under the wrap?

Thanks for these suggestions, JB. (Check your email, BTW).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thankfully I haven't had to deal with true lymphangitis (or probably more correctly cellulitis). The vet made a point to state that this wasn't that, just damage to the lymphatics which made circulation of fluid harder and was basically cosmetic rather than potentially life-threatening like cellulitis can turn. So....

My current routine is unwrapped 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours at night. That's currently the point where swelling at the fetlock starts to be noticable and his scar, which is higher up, starts turning purple from blood pooling there. So the wrap (nobow and track bandage) goes back on at that point. The intent is to slowly, gradually increase that time unwrapped. I am supposed to be riding him for 20 minutes at the walk for 2 weeks, with the wrap off for 1 hour prior to that, and leaving it off for as long after that as I can before the swelling starts to get out of hand, but the ground conditions have not really allowed for that. This is of course because he's been out of work for 10 months now and that's the routine (20 minutes walking) the vet prescribed based on the lack of fitness rather than the injury, which he has proclaimed healed, just in need of strengthening. Anyway, the deal is to increase the amount of time he's unwrapped. He said it could take 6 months for the leg to find an equilibrium, and that it's possible (and I believe it's definite) that the joint will always be bigger than normal. I do know if I leave him unwrapped overnight (8 hours) his entire leg swells, and if I were to leave it unwrapped the cannon swelling goes down (which to me means it was stocking up swelling), but the fetlock stays swollen.

I have not poulticed as for several months he had an open wound. I think about poulticing now, perhaps overnight or something when I put his wrap on in the evenings. I really should give that a whirl I guess!

I WAS using medication under the wraps when the wound was still open, but don't use anything anymore.

[Pol]

Hansiska, I meant no insult nor judgement whatsoever by my last post!! I was simply wondering what the pros had to say on the subject http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Diana, I was also going to suggest a DMSO/Furacin sweat, but isn't this condition too old for that? I assume it wouldn't hurt, tho.
Hansiska, the way I do a DMSO/Furacin sweat is to get the product from my vet. It is a liquid in a little bottle with a dauber attached to the lid. When the leg has been brushed clean (or bathed and dried), I paint it well with DMSO/F. Really wet the skin with the stuff. Then I wrap 1 layer of Saran around the area I want sweated. Smooth it out carefully so you have no wrinkles. Next layer is a thick cotton (or No-Bow) followed by a stable bandage. Leave it on for 12 hours, leave it off for 12 and rewrap. Maybe after a week you'll see a difference. If it is Lymphangitis, then she should probably have some Naquazone and antibiotics. If it is hard, cold and does not cause lameness, chances are it isn't Lymphangitis (IME)

[Dianna]

It is never too late to try a good sweat....

The mixture is good; but, when you wrap, you never want the saran wrap against the leg, you need a cotton for absorption purposes.

So, you want to first put a thinner cotton over the medication and then the saran wrap over that and then bandaging material.

I, myself, like to use vet wrap (especially if the horse is going to be out), it has far more give and can stay put longer.

Monitor the status of the bandage and try to get 24-36 hours out of it. I have learned to be very aggressive in the rehab of certain things, and I don't suffer leg swelling easily.

I would probably do this over the course of a week, and when you do take it off, hose the leg, dry it good, repeat...

If you get any swelling down, then I would probably keep the leg wrapped (with vet wrap) while she is turned out. The friction of the vet wrap will help the circulation.

Once you get the swelling under control, keep after it. For my part, I don't have a problem with a horse having to live in bandages, if it keeps the legs from swelling. I have always felt each time you allow swelling to creep back in, you are only contributing to the problem.

Finally, see if your vet will prescribe some naquazone to help pull the swelling; and, adding MSM and Vit. E/Sel. to the diet wouldn't hurt either.

[hansiska]

Thanks, guys!!! Last night I went first to the bookstore and bought Veterinary Notes for Horse Owners by M. Horace Hayes, a better vet book than the one I had, then to check my "girls" and re-examine my mare's leg. I hadn't really pushed on it/squeezed it before and I was surprised to find that, if I pushed on it, the tissue was somewhat soft. It's also more pitted than I thought.

Strangely, I'm happy about this -- it means it's most likely edema, which means it's most likely lymphangitis. After reading Hayes' chapters on the lymph system and skin conditions/injuries, as well as your comments, I really think it is lymphangitis (though I will of course confirm with my vet). Pol -- if it isn't lymphangitis, what is your gut feeling about what it might be?

What's more, Hayes (and just about everyone else I've read or heard from) suggests trying wrapping. In fact, there seems to be no singular remedy for lymphangitis -- it's a condition whose successful treatment can vary with each horse. So: the DMSO/Furacin wrap, cold hosing, moderate exercise -- all might help, and it may take some experimentation to find what works for my mare.

I'm relieved to hear Dianna say the wrap can stay on for more than 12 hrs if necessary. I actually didn't bandage the leg yet because I'm not feeding tonight and wouldn't be there to take it off. (I also need to go get some DMSO.) Of course, I'm now remembering JB's post about having the leg unbandaged for only 2 hrs (don't mind me... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif).

I have one further question: this is an open broodmare who will be bred in the spring. Is DMSO, MSM, or extra Vit E/Selenium any danger to her or would it endanger her chances of conceiving in any way?

Also, Dianna, I understand that vitamin E helps the skin, etc, but I don't know much about selenium. Can you tell me what role it would play here?

Thanks again, guys!

[hansiska]

UPDATE: I just got off the phone with the vet (albeit an associate, not my vet of choice -- I mean, was I supposed to laugh when he said "Well, your first mistake was buying the mare and your second mistake was reading"? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif).

He's prescribed bute and encourages the wrapping but said he doesn't have much hope that it will have a long-term curative effect. Wrapping may be effective, he said, but most likely the edema will return soon after the wraps are off.

Naquazone is currently unavailable, he said.

DMSO is fine to try now, but certainly not in the first 90 days of pregnancy, and isn't recommended on a pregnant mare.

So, a-wrapping I will go....

[hansiska]

One other thing... I also read that lymphangitis can be affected by (not caused by, but exacerbated by) too much protein in the feed. If I understand it correctly, when the lymph vessels begin to fail, they deposit/can't carry away liquid. As the problem worsens -- unfortunately, the to the stage my mare is most likely at -- the lymph system also deposits protein (perhaps why the problem proceeds from edema to a harder consistency?). What should I do to maintain the proper protein levels for my mare as I try to work on this problem? How should I address it during her pregnancy?

Also, what, if any, herbal supplements help the lymph system?

[Dianna]

Well, I wouldn't go all crazy about the protein thing before you take a look at your entire diet. Just because you are feeding a feed that is 14% protein, doesn't mean your entire daily intake of protein is at 14% of the total daily calories.

I agree with your vet, it will be very likely that your horse will have to be maintained in wraps - the vet wrap is a great choice, if you are comfortable setting them.

You can also try some DMSO and Arnica gel (2 tubes per 1 pint of DMSO) it is a great remedy, works well as a sweat and it heats up nicely.

[Barnfairy]

One of my horses had a nasty bout with acute lymphangitis over the summer, and I have also known a few other horses with chronic lymphangitis. When my gelding was stocked up, the hind leg had a firm, "filled" look from coronary band right up to the hock (actually, the swelling went right up to his rump at first http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif). It took months of treatment before the swelling finally went away. In the other horses, the swelling never did go away completely. Again, their affected legs were thick from the pastern right up to the hock.

It's a little hard to tell from your picture, but it looks like the majority of the swelling on your mare's leg is concentrated around the fetlock joint -- as if it were an old injury of some sort. In any event, it would seem as though your mare's leg is not in an acute phase, and therefore, I doubt you'd be able to reduce the swelling significantly or permanently. (But let's hope I'm wrong! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

Anyway, there is a lot of helpful information about lymphangitis on a previous thread (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=5206053911&m=35160967&r=55160177#55160177).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"Well, your first mistake was buying the mare and your second mistake was reading"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Jaaane, stop this crazy thing

[DMK]

JB - talk to me about your "damaged lymphatic system"...

I am dealing with a case of VERY frustrating fat leg after a severe muscle tear (a little over 5 weeks ago). Robbie tore his groin muscle (in his stall!) and the entire leg blew up. The extreme swelling is consistant with a muscle tear so there was no reason to think lymphangitis (not to mention that the pattern of swelling did not correspond with lymphangitis swelling development). But he also spiked a fever (hindsight indicates it was proably stress related), so in the better be safe than sorry department, the vet opted for NSAIDs and antibiotics and did not want to add a steroid to the mix (not a bad idea - this horse screams immune issues). But swelling didn't respond to NSAIDs, bandaging, not bandaging, dry wraps, furacin sweats or antibiotics.

After 10 days when the swelling continued unabated we tried a round of lasix (diuretic). Nada (except HUGE wet spots for me to clean out of stall).

Then we considered the possibility of a vascular blood clot in the leg (the leg was extremely weepy in the first weeks, so this fit). Tried 10 days of high dose isoxoprine (vasodilator/blood thinner at high doses). It might have resulted in minor improvement, or maybe that was because he was feeling better, on turnout and moving around more. My bet is on turnout. This one still hangs out there because isox won't "cure" a blood clot, just thin the blood to improve circulation - presumably this will help the cells flush out edema. In any event, it didn't.

Now if he is out for 24-36 hours I can see a defined hock and all structures above. Maybe feel a tendon structure in the upper cannon area. Still fat ankle and no tendon/ligament definition. But a sound horse (in turnout - haven't been on him). There is that. Leave him in a stall for 24 hours (as he has been lately because of all the $^%#( rain http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ) and any progress is totally undone.

I suspect something amiss with the immune system, but damned if anyone is providing much info (2nd opinion time has arrived, but that's another tale).

So tell me about all you know about a damaged lymphatic system, because it is fairly obvious Robbie's isn't 100%!

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[stegall]

Well, I have had several horses with it over the years. They all came with it-never aquired it while I had them, so I cannot determine what caused it.

That being said, the picture you have is small, and my eyesite is horrible, so I can't get a good look at the photo. Although, from your description, I would be pretty willing to lay money on it being lymphangitis (sp).
Its a bugger of a condition-what you have read so far is correct.
Some good things, its "managable" and your mare could remain very comfortable.

Bad news: its chronic (you will have good and bad days), and in severe cases, it can be fatal. I lost my bay TB mare a few years back to it. (also a mare about to be bred).
Its labor intensive thats for sure.

The treatments you have described are the best you can do-with the occassional antibiotic dose if it gets bad.

One of the best things for it is turn out-stalling tends to aggrivate the condition. Especially when the mare is in foal.

Did I give you my card at our CT get together?
If not, email me, and I'll give you a call so we can chat. There is not a great deal of research about it unfortunately.

But, as an aside, I had one vet in FL who was an expert with dealing with it, and he said that it was a condition that women with masectomies often get-so you may want to try a search under that. I don;t know if this is a true statement, but doesn't hurt to look around.

OH-and wear gloves when doing the DMSO/furicin sweat. DMSO is a catalyst that pulls the furicin through the skin. You shouldn't get it on you if you can avoid it.

[JB]

DMK - I'm not terribly well-versed on the scientific details of this, but here goes. The lymphatic system is responsible for pulling fluids from tissue and returning it to the blood. Damage to that obviously would then lead to fluid retention, ie swelling. The extent to which Rio's is damaged is unknown. I don't know if a blood test would give any insight into that. I suppose it's entirely possible this is what's going on with Robbie - he and Rio suffered traumatic damage to a part of their body. I am still trying to find out more on possible treatments, other than wrapping. I have started him on some herbal/natural products to help boost his immune system and see what sort of progress that might help make.

[DMK]

Thanks, that was pretty much what I knew. So much for my hope that you would be a shioning beacon of knowledge light! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Did Rio ever have excessive weepiness in the acute stages of inflammation? Robbie actually lost all the hair on his lower legs from fluid seeping out lower leg tissue. It was pretty gross changing those wraps the first week. That was pretty much resolved in the first 10 days, but it was the excessive weepiness that made a doc friend of mine think "blood clot" (it is helpful working with medical professionals). The vet concurred and then we went for the 10 days of isox. But quite frankly he had a HUGE amount of swelling that extended all the way to his sheath and belly, so that stuff had to go somewhere, and down and out seemed to be the only option.



In my latest round of frustration, I stumbled across a supplement called Recovery EQ that sounds like it might address the issue. I just started Robbie on it last night. Who knows if it will help, but it had lots of good stuff in it, including MSM, chondroitins, yadda yadda yadda. It got a good review from the Horse Journal, for what that is worth. I also added Accel Lifetime to the mix which has E/Sel and an immune booster (he used to be on E/Sel and MSM).

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[hansiska]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Well, I wouldn't go all crazy about the protein thing before you take a look at your entire diet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Ok ok....tendency to go all crazy is duly noted. Will try to control myself better in future....

I'll also look for Arnika gel. Thanks, Dianna (again!). I always value your advice, whether it's for me or anyone else. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Barnfairy, my mare looks just like you described your gelding:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> the hind leg had a firm, "filled" look from coronary band right up to the hock <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks so much for pointing out that thread! (And yeah, that young vet is an a$$...)

DMK -- my first thought about your horse was Hmmm, sounds like it could be a blood clot? I was wondering, is it inadvisable to massage a blood clot? (Would the horse 'throw a clot' and die?)
Your comment about the damaged immune and/or lymphatic system also reminds me that my mare has delayed uterine clearance post-breeding (needs flushes to help clear her uterus of fluid and debris). Is there a connection between this and the leg?

Stegall -- So sorry to hear about your bay mare! I had though my mare was a bad case, but her entire leg is not swollen or breaking out with pus, and she certainly doesn't have a fever. Thanks for the warning about using gloves -- I've heard that from several sources now and I already have a huge box of gloves to use. (If it gets really bad I also have a box of OB gloves!). Yes, I do have your card and will email you.

Thanks so much, everyone, for all of your help!!! Does anyone else have suggestions on herbal supplements for lymph issues? (Must be safe for pregnant/lactating mares).

I've attached another pic, which will hopefully give you a better idea about the leg. Please know that she and the filly had met five minutes earlier and that she is showing her meanest face and backing up towards the filly. She is the sweetest mare, but seems to have settled right into her job of making the young'uns respect their elders!

[dsedler]

Hansiska, my uncle's horse has the exact same problem with the same back leg. It has looked like that since he bought him about 7-8 years ago. Supposedly it started when he got a rope caught around his leg and it has never been the same. But we can't verify since we don't know who had him before.
This horse is on 24/7 turnout and he is completely sound on it. If he is kept in overnight he does stock up really bad on it but it goes down after he is worked for a little while. However, he did have a major blow up a couple of months ago where he was lame as could be and the leg swelled from coronet bank up past his hock. They had the vet out but I wasn't there to hear what he said. He was put on antibiotics and the vet said to not keep him in, but to keep the 24/7 turnout in a smaller area, which we did. It took about 2 weeks for him to stop limping on it and his leg is now more swollen than it used to be. But he is sound again.
This horse is used soely for trail riding and we are talking serious riding. Long, steep hills, 10-12 hour rides, the whole works. He has no problem doing rides like this and actually, the longer the ride, the more the swelling goes down.
I'll ask my uncle what the vet said it was when he was out and let you know.

http://community.webshots.com/user/dsedler

[JB]

DMK - thankfully, no, no weeping skin! I should try to get some pictures of his leg just unwrapped and then 2 hours later (and if the time comes again where it's "accidentally" left unwrapped all day or night, one of that too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Barnfairy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Did Rio ever have excessive weepiness in the acute stages of inflammation? Robbie actually lost all the hair on his lower legs from fluid seeping out lower leg tissue. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pardon me for butting in, but... Yes! This happened to my Southerly during his acute stage of lymphangitis. At one point, his leg was actually bubbling. Gross. My vet didn't think Suth had a blood clot, but she did discuss that the lymph nodes were damaged, and that therefore circulation was greatly compromised. She said it would take months to heal, and that some horses don't heal completely, and still others may not heal at all.

Southerly is much better now. It did take months for him to heal. It probably didn't help that he's in his thirties, so his recovery is a miracle in my eyes. So far, his leg has stayed at normal size for the last three months or so, and I've been able to stop wrapping him. I'm not looking forward to muddy spring and muggy weather, though -- these conditions seem to aggravate horses that have had lymphangitis.

BTW, all his hair did grow back just fine, same color too.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*toink*
*toink*
*TOING*

Damn it! Stupid wand! Now I have to do all these stalls by hand!

[DMK]

barnfairy - thanks for the info, and it is good to hear (I'm sure JB agrees) that you did get past the problem. And it makes sense that damaged lymph nodes could create the same issues as a blood clot - if the lymph node can't deliver the fluid to the circulatory system, the end result is the same as if the circulatory system can't "accept" the fluid from the lymph nodes.

I think the reason why a blood clot seemed a possibility is that this horse had a traumatic muscle injury rather than lymphangitis, which puts the whole lymphatic system under more stress, I would think. BUt I swear to you, I can just see this horse's lymphatic system just up and decide that there was "too much fluid, we ain't workin' no more!"

The horse is a prima donna hothouse flower in every other way except when you ride him. I see no reason why his lymphatic system should be any different. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Hansiska - that "throwing a clot" thought has weighed on my mind a lot. And my plan was to start massage therapy/stretching as soon as the muscle injury was more healed and the inflammation was gone (so the thought weighed even more, but I suppose if there is a clot, and it's going to shift, there isn't a lot I can do about it...). So far I would say that muscle tear is ready for massage/stretching work, but I don't want to start any stretching/massage until I am 100% sure there is no other injury on the lower leg - we suspected that there wasn't, but who could tell with all that swelling???

JB - here is the swelling after about a week of dedicated bandaging, antibiotics, and 4 grams of bute/day (or 24 ccs of banamine). At it's worst it is about 1/2 or less now - at its' best, the hock and above are about 95% OK, and the upper cannon is about 75% Things go downhill as you go down, but there is a recognizable shape to the leg... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

But we still get that fence post action going between the ankle and coronet band when he's left in. And yes, it is supposed to rain again tomorrow...

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[hansiska]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif Ouch! That leg looks bad, DMK -- glad it's improved! In my reading I discovered that part of the reason fluid tends to collect below the hock is that there's a certain place in the joint (forgive me for not being anatomically/medically correct here, and help me if you can) where lymph and blood has very tight space to get through, just due to the way the bones and tendons work in that particular place. This is where the clots sometimes are (I think, my apologies for not having the book in front of me, but it's in Hayes' chapter on Lymph). Sort of makes me wonder about getting them out of there.

As I think about the lymph system, I keep wondering: Can it heal? Yes for some horses, no for others? Do I just keep wrapping, remove the wraps every so often, and see what happens?

dsedler, I'm so happy to hear you say that your affected horse is perfectly rideable and usable in every other way. In fact, many of these stories give me a lot of hope. Thanks!

Now, just for fun, I've been looking for herbal supplements that supposedly help the lymph system... and they are UNBELIEVABLY EXPENSIVE!!!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif $50-$60 per month! Is this what you guys are finding? Is any of it worth it?

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hansiska:
Do I just keep wrapping, remove the wraps every so often, and see what happens? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's where I'd start. Wrap it and leave it wrapped for a week (resetting every couple days, or every day or so, whatever you are comfortable with or she will tolerate or the bandage dictates). If you get nowhere with that, not even a little bit reduction, then I'd guess wrapping isn't going to help. I'm not sure you'd need to go longer than a week of 24x7 wrapping to know if it's helping or not. If you DO see improvement, then I might leave it wrapped 24x7 for a month (or for however long you continue to see improvement), and then do like I'm doing. Start leaving it off for 30 minutes a day, then maybe 30 minutes twice a day, etc, and working up from there, finding the point where you see the swelling starting to return, and trying to push that time out.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now, just for fun, I've been looking for herbal supplements that supposedly help the lymph system... and they are UNBELIEVABLY EXPENSIVE!!!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif $50-$60 per month! Is this what you guys are finding? Is any of it worth it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Depends http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I've sent you some info. Yes, a lot of herbal/natural remedies are pricey - partly (IMHO) because demand for them isn't high enough yet and partly because, well, people will pay! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Dianna]

When you are leaving the wrap on, I would keep it in a sweat (for a while) ... if you can get it to stay down while wrapped and then work the horse and it stays down, for my part, if you don't mind wrapping, I doubt I would try to get the horse to the point where it doesn't need the wrap... each time you allow that leg to swell, there is additional damage being done ... I realize that I look at things quite differently with my old time racetrack/rehab background; but, I hate to mess with success ...

[hansiska]

OK, here's my plan: keep it wrapped almost 24/7. 12 hrs DMSO/Furacin sweat, upwrap, rinse w/ cold water, dry thoroughly, then 12 hours with a standing or pressure wrap (no sweat).

Sound right?

[Dianna]

If that makes you comfortable, then go for it. However, if you can feel comfortable with the DMSO/Furacin sweat being on for a solid 24 hours, take it off, rinse and then re-apply for another 24 hours ... for the first week - you may find you have better results ... you could, of course, alternate it with the DMSO/Furacin (with saran) and then after washing it good, use a good alcohol wrap (with saran) ... if you are using vet wrap, you should easily be able to do the 24 hour thing ... but, you do need to check it and be sure that all is good with its placement.

[hansiska]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I wasn't sure if it would be ok to leave the DMSO/Furacin sweat on for an extended period of time, but, if you've had good results with it and don't feel it would hurt anything, I'll leave it on for 24 hrs.

Can you describe a "good alcohol wrap"?

Thanks again! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Dianna]

I have left sweats like this on my mare for 48 hours (because the wrap stayed where it needed to be for that long). It is very, very important to monitor the status of your wrap. It will dictate when it needs to come off. Plus, with the DMSO and furacin you more than likely do not have to worry about blistering as it isn't that kind of remedy.

[hansiska]

I can monitor the wrap, and I will. I'm also going to photograph the leg in order to note changes.

Any "recipes" for an alcohol wrap, or is this self-explanatory?

Thanks,
Kendra

[Dianna]

Just pour on some alcohol ... that is, so long as she doesn't have any open sores - gee, that stings just thinking about it.

[DMK]

Other than alcohol, you might want to try witch hazel.

It's an astringent (meaning to draws fluids out of tissues). It's great for "dry" wraps and on the rare horse that is sensitive to alcohol, they usually tolerate witch hazel just fine. I almost always use witch hazel instead of alcohol!

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[Dianna]

Have you ever mixed witch hazel with dmso - now that gets way hot. In my opinion- sometimes too hot.

[DMK]

Actually, I haven't mixed witch hazel OR alcohol w/DMSO, and hadn't really ever thought about doing it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

And I make a practice of thoroughly cleaning/drying legs before I swap between DMSO and any other leg stuff. But I do like witch hazel for a nice brace on a clean leg.

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[hansiska]

Well guys, I started the wrapping regimen Saturday morning. Here's what I started with:

[hansiska]

Here's the leg from the back:

[hansiska]

And here's the leg from the left side:

[hansiska]

I'll include one more here of the leg from the right side, looking closely at the fetlock joint.

After 8 hours, the bandaged had slipped down about 2", I think because the swelling had gone down ONE FULL INCH!!! Her fetlock joint measured 16.5" when I started and was 15.5" by early afternoon. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I rewrapped and the bandage has stayed on better since.

I'm really glad I started on a weekend so I could recheck and rewrap as necessary. Yesterday I actually clipped off some of her winter coat where it was very long around the fetlock. Hope this wasn't a bad idea, but I just didn't think I'd be able to (1) get the sweat in there and (2) wash it out and dry the leg effectively. I'm planning to keep the leg wrapped right through til we get warmer weather, so it shouldn't be a huge problem.

I'm really excited about the progress I've seen in just two days. Her leg is now soft -- it seemed taut as a drum when I started. It's still pretty big, but we're making progress.

One thing I did notice is a callous on the front of her cannon bone. There's definitely a hard lump, but I can't tell if it's in the skin or in the bone. I'm thinking it needs an x-ray.

ALso, the swelling really does involve the hock, as you can see in the pics. Should I try wrapping the hock or getting a "hock sweat" bandage?

I also noticed some lumpy nodules (pardon my oh-so-scientific descriptions) on the inside of her hind gaskin. So now I get to worry about blood clots, too...

[This message was edited by hansiska on Feb. 16, 2004 at 11:24 AM.]

[JB]

Great starting point pictures and YAY on the 1" reduction! If you think it will help figure out why she's got this swelling, I'd do a few xrays (to see if any calcification shows up as a clue) and definitely ultrasound to see what the soft tissue structures are doing.

[Pol]

H- are you sweating it? What's your recipe? How great it has gone down so much. Those scars may tell the story.

[hansiska]

Pol -- yes, with a 1/2 DMSO, 1/2 Furacin sweat.

After 48 hours with only a rinse and dry after the first 24 hours, I decided to rinse and dry and just wrap it for 12 hours today. I'm a bit worried that my rinsing and drying skills aren't what they should be when it's one degree out, so I did a basic standing wrap with an absorbent quilt and pressure bandage for today. Sweat will go back on tonight. I'm paranoid about it staying wet all the time. I have images of the hair and skin sloughing off!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

JB, good idea on the u/s.

Does anyone else get a major headache working with DMSO?

Do any of you wrap the hock? How about higher than the hock? How do you do it?

PS -- She is also on bute, 1g 2X daily. And, for the first time, I saw her standing on the right rear and cocking her LEFT (good) leg yesterday!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[JB]

For the hock, I'd say it's more trouble than it's worth to wrap. You could try rubbing straight dmso on it - it's definitely looking capped. Or, you could get a neoprene hock boot.

[FairWeather]

how timely--I just called the vet for one of my guys. He came in with two rear swollen legs--no heat, but pitting edema. Handwalked him and but and he seemed better.
the next day we had the front legs swollen. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif
I think i'm going to wrap tonight--I just dont like where this is going!
I have NO idea why this would happen, the horse hasnt been injured, though I guess it could have been an infection from scratches maybe?
BLECK!
Vet is coming tomorrow AM, and hopefully we'll see what we have after that. Problem is, my place is SO muddy that I dont even know where to begin--even my barn is flooded. I think i'll end up moving him if he needs to be continually wrapped, so he can be turned out in an arena or something.

[Barnfairy]

Hansiska, I wrapped Southerly's hock with practical cotton (the stuff that comes in a roll wrapped in paper) and vet wrap. I would tear off two sections of cotton (it's very soft, about an inch thick, and tears really easily), each about a foot and a half long. I wrapped one sheet over the top part of the hock & part of the gaskin, and the second sheet over the lower part of the hock and upper cannon bone, each at a *slight* angle so the the point of the hock was not covered. Then, I used vet wrap to hold the cotton in place, wrapping in somewhat of a figure-eight pattern, again leaving the point of the hock exposed. Finally, I put a standing wrap on the bottom of the leg, covering from the coronary band all the way to over the very bottom part of the hock wrap.

Tying the tail in a mud knot while wrapping was very helpful. Having 3 hands would have been even nicer (it can be tricky trying to keep the cotton in place as you start up the vet wrap.) The wrap should be firm, but never "pull" on the vet wrap -- that would be too tight.

For Suth, hock-wrapping during the acute phase was crucial to keep swelling down. Otherwise, his leg swelled so much that he couldn't flex his hock.

BTW, "lumpy nodules" along the leg are a symptom of lymphangitis (lymph damage) in some horses.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*toink*
*toink*
*TOING*

Damn it! Stupid wand! Now I have to do all these stalls by hand!

[DMK]

Yup, you can bandage a hock. I wouldn't recommend it for a horse on turnout, but it can easily be done for a stallbound horse.

Here are two pics

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[DMK]

and next pic...

Use 3 SHORT quilts - after thee pics were taken I switched to no bows - they work a bit better for fitting over hock like shapes.

3 wraps
3 short quilts
safety pins for top wrap

Wraps bottom wrap first, work your way up. Ideally quilt and wrap of second wrap will overlap your lower wrap. Entire bandage will go to highest point of hock before the natural bend or joint of the hock. Last wrap goes above hock - sitting right on top of middle wrap.

The key is to make sure your lower wrap does not slip. It holds everything else inplace, so if you have a problem with lower wraps slipping, your hock wraps won't work out too well, and it is probbaly best to avoid doing them.

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[hansiska]

Nice wrap job, DMK! My mare is in 24/7 turnout, though. I would be worried about keeping her in. It seems like the benefits wouldn't cancel out the fact that the inactivity would work against her lymph system clearing out.

Maybe I will try it anyway. I'm at least going to look into those hock sweats (neoprene bandages designed for the hock).

Barnfairy, did you turn Suth out with that bandage?

FairWeather, good luck and let us know what the vet says!

[Barnfairy]

Hansiska, no, I did not turn out Suth with his hock bandage on (nor his standing wrap). I wanted his leg to be "open" while he was out to give his sloughing skin a chance to dry & heal. I found that as long as he kept moving (i.e. turned out on grass, or spread hay in many piles in dirt paddock), he did not stock back up significantly while unwrapped.

[Pol]

FW- In my experience, it sounds like you have a big Lymphangitis bloom going on. It can come from the most innocuous little scratch or ding and blow up all 4 legs. It is a complete drag. Does your filling go up into the crotch? Lots of meds are called for, glad your DVM is coming over.
Hansiska, I wouldn't bother wrapping the hock- I'm thinking as you get the filling out of the lower leg that the hock's swelling will disipate as well. I have never gotten a headache from DMSO-I use it on myself as much as on the horses! I think people are more panicky about the stuff than necessary. Glad your pone is showing improvement!

[Dianna]

I would not bother with the hock right now, I would paint the hock with DMSO and that hard spot on the cannon bone as well.

Keep up the good work.

[hansiska]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Ok.

[hansiska]

More good news! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Her fetlock is now down to 13.5" in circumference! The other (normal) fetlock is 13". Granted, I did take some of the winter wooly hair off the affected leg so I could get the sweat on and off easily (the aimed-for number is probably under 13") but I'm psyched! I still can't make out the structures above the fetlock -- it's just puffy and I can't see tendons, etc -- but for four days of treatment, I'm very impressed!

Couldn't have done it without you guys... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[FairWeather]

Dr. Vet came out and had a look at big L.
He said "slight lymphangitis" due most likely to the very mild case of scratches he has. Made sense to me. He's not swollen enough at this point to where he needs to be wrapped, but we'll see if this gets nipped in the bud with the antibiotics and Azium.
Good luck to you all, what an ordeal these fat legs are!

__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
CANTER MidAtlantic (http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia)

[hansiska]

Fairweather, please check your PTs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Dianna]

Fairweather - I know you didn't ask for an opinion (so, sorry); but, I have always strongly felt that any swelling should be dealt with aggressively ... so you may want to spend a few days on your knees ... just to get the leg back to a non-swollen status.

[FairWeather]

I would spend time on my knees, however I cannot get back up http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (back surgery in three days http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif)
We're now at the point where there is no swelling so i'm pretty happy about that. If he does go the other way, I have someone that will come wrap him.
He is moving to another barn while i'm laid up, just in case something like that happens.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Bases covered? Check http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Pol]

Yipes, FW, GOOD LUCK on Friday (Saturday?)!! We'll be thinking of you http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Glad the meds are helping your pone.

[hansiska]

Yes, jingles for you Fairweather -- good luck!

Another update on my mare:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
As I said yesterday, the fetlock joint, which was 16.5" around when I started, is now down to 13.5" -- YAYYYY!!!! This morning, though I didn't measure it again, it is the same if not smaller. Her normal hind leg is 13" in circumference. Today I am starting to be able to vaguely see structures between the canon bone and the back of her leg -- just BARELY. I'm absolutely amazed at the change I've seen in the five days I've worked on this.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Pol]

Holy smokes, Hansiska, that is cool. Keep up the good work!

[hansiska]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif OK, people, I have an update. Set down your popcorn and return to your seats.

For those who don't want to go back and look, here's what we started with (this pic was taken last Saturday, February 14):

[hansiska]

Here's what we have now, after one week with a 50/50 DMSO/Furacin sweat.

From the back:

[hansiska]

From the left side:

[hansiska]

And from the right:

[hansiska]

As you can see, the difference is pretty dramatic, but there's still a lot of swelling around the fetlock. My gut feeling at this point is that the shipping bandage over the bulky quilt doesn't quite apply pressure very well to the curves of the fetlock and that at this point we might do better with just a pressure bandage. To this end, after this picture was taken I applied just a track bandage, which I re-do every 12 hours. So far, there's been no increase in swelling.

Anyone have any suggestions?

As some of you may have noticed, I've been asking on other threads about the efficacy of both Saratoga bandages and Eskadron climatex polos for this situation. If any of you care to steer me on that, feel free.

Thanks! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[JB]

Fabulous!!

When I needed to actually provide support to Rio's fetlock in the early staged of his severed tendon, I used an 18" nobow/track wrap and wrapped down nearly to his heels. Something to think about.

[Dianna]

I have had great success with vet wrap directly on the skin - keep up using the DMSO (and I might not add anything else to it at this point) and put the wrap on ... do not start in the middle of the cannon bone, start with a figure-8 around/under the fetlock, wrapping twice like this, leaving a "V" in the front, and then work your way back up the leg.

[hansiska]

JB -- Thanks! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Dianna -- Just plain DMSO? No Furacin? If DMSO is a conductor (carries stuff like Furacin from one place to another), why would straight DMSO work? I'm not questioning the practice itself, I'm just curious to know why this would work. Clearly, it's worked for you. Tell me more.

Also, you must be clairvoyant -- I just ordered another box of vetrap! So you apply DMSO and wrap with vetrap? No saran wrap? No cotton?

I'll do the figure eight.

Thanks again,
Kendra

[Dianna]

DMSO is one of those oddities - they have a bunch of "ideas" as to why it works ... but, yes, it does work all by itself quite nicely. At this point, you could continue to sweat the leg down with DMSO and furacin or arnica; or, you could liberally put on the dmso, let it dry and then wrap her in the vet wrap ... the movement of the vet wrap against the leg is almost like a massage and it might just do the trick.

[hansiska]

Hmmm...I'll try it. Thanks!

[Pol]

H- Straight DMSO freezes at a very high temperature, like maybe 55 or 60. The Furacin prevents that. If you want to use the straight stuff, you'll have to keep it in the house, then inside your shirt to prevent ending up with slush/ice.

[hansiska]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif So, will it freeze on her leg without the furacin, or will her leg's temperature keep it from freezing? (Sorry guys, I'm not a chemist....)
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

[Pol]

I don't know what it will do ON her leg, but it is hard to APPLY frozen DMSO http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Dianna]

The simple thing is - keep the DMSO in the house with you or in the car with the heater.

[DMK]

DMSO is and has always been a potent anti-inflammatory that also acts on free radicals. The furacin is absolutely unneccessary to address inflammation, although it provides a mild antibiotic effect for open wounds or instances of infection. The ultimate anti-inflammatory combination is DMSO with dexamethasone (usually 10 cc dex/pint of DMSO), as dex is also a potent anti-inflammatory. But you do need to be careful about using dex in any case where infection may be present, as it is so strong it can mask the symptoms of infection.

I usually keep my DMSO at home as it loses its potency in extreme heat or cold, so it lives in my med cabinet and I refill a small dauber bottle as needed. A reall quick solution is ot drop your small bottle of DMSO in a larger bottle of warm water when you go to the barn every day. This worked quite well for me all January when I was living the DMSO sweat blues. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Now this is just my personal feelings and opinion, but I would not be a huge fan of straight vetwrap without any sheet cotton or other ameliorating effect underneath, but this is based on sort of a racetrack/surgical mentality where we wouldn't do that for longer than it took to run that race. However, in dealing with nasty swelling from hock to coronet band, I really liked the no bow bandages JB referenced. They "conform" very nicely to odd shapes and work well when wrapping from foot to hock. I use two "short" no bows and wrap from coronet to mid cannon, then use the other one to wrap from mid cannon to lower hock. They stay nicely in place for 24 hours, and I have even had 8 of those hours be on turnout...

If you want, I can try and snap a pic of this setup.

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[hansiska]

Oddly enough, when I started this whole regime I left my bag of wraps/gloves/DMSO/furacin/etc in my horse trailer (which IS my barn right now!). Of course it went down to about 10F and, like an idiot, I tried mixing the DMSO with furacin that had the consistency of asphalt... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif The DMSO was fine, so I'm a little surprised to hear that it should have been frozen. Mixed together, the combo never froze on me, even when I accidentally left it out at night.

That said, I now bring that bag into the house at night and into work with me on cold days.

What I worry about with straight vetrap is that it won't give me the pressure I'll need. Right now, I have her in just a track bandage (wrapped per Dianna's instructions http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif) and it's doing great. The swelling still seems to be going down.

Still, I think I'll try the straight DMSO. Unfortunately, I forgot to bring it with me today.

My mare is out 24/7, so I really need something that will stay on. She's 18 and doesn't appreciate this frozen ground and frozen snow, so it's not like she's running around wild, but she does roll and lay down and walk, etc.

Yes, please take a picture of that wrap job, if it's not too much trouble -- I'd love to see it.

Thanks!

[hansiska]

First, I want to correct what I said about DMSO's freezing point. I must have been thinking of the stuff I mixed with furacin, which didn't freeze. Found out the hard way the other night that, yes, DMSO, does freeze into a solid chunk even when it's nice out. &lt;picture my gloved hand, mare's prepped leg, bandages at the ready and....clunk!...@$!& DMSO!&gt;

Now, about the leg....

As I've said, the overall reduction in the size of the leg is remarkable. (See pics page 5, compare to page 1). I've gotten it down to the point where you wouldn't necessarily even notice the puffiness unless you were looking for it.

In terms of treatment, I'd like to be finished with DMSO, given the question marks associated with its use and given the fact that she goes for her pre-breeding vet visit on March 20. As I mentioned before, I also feel that a plain wrap could apply better pressure to the fetlock joint than I can get with the quilts and standing bandages I'm using with the sweat.

Trouble is, the track bandages I've been using are narrower (about 4") than the track bandages and also have little velcro at the end. This is not cutting it in my 24/7 turnout situation. I came home one night to find the bandage GONE and the leg filling up again. (Back to the sweat that night). Twice I've arrived to find the wrap still on, but useless, as in I can see her fetlock through the wrap.

I'm not ruling out wrapper error, but I am experienced and thought I'd done a good job. Maybe I should try polos? Eskadron climatex polos? Saratogas? Duct tape?

I realize that my time with the 24/7 wrapped leg routine is oh so brief compared to what some others here have endured, but I'm getting a little discouraged.

Anybody have any pointers?

And BTW, thanks for that new word: Lymphangitisy. I like it! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Dianna]

I still vote for the vet wrap ... since you don't want to use the DMSO anymore, go with witch hazel ... and you can let it stand for an easy 24-hours. I might use some duck tape (just in case).

[Sudley4me]

I haven't read this whole thread, but just wanted to comment on the wraps. My horses has a chronic and very bad case of Lymphangitis. He has to keep a wrap on 24/7, unless he is being ridden, and he also lives outside 24/7. The wrap is actually 2 no bows and then a standing wrap over that. I have to make it pretty tight as it is a pressure wrap, and it seems to be doing the trick.

Another thing you might want to talk to your vet about is aspirin. Chance used to be on Aspirin before it went full blown (when he just had scratches and a little cellulitis). This was to help prevent the swelling. Just wanted to let you know what I had to do. Best of luck! Hopefully yours will just get over this little outbreak and be fine.

-Natalie

proud member of the MOOP clique (although I am now positive that I have a pony in my 15.3hh bodied horse)

"All horses deserve, at least once in their lives, to be loved by a little girl."

[hansiska]

Sorry Dianna -- I wasn't thinking well yesterday!

This is my life: research lymphangitis; wrap; work 50 hrs/week; wrap; take five college classes; wrap; (four undergrad, one grad); wrap; say hi to boyfriend; wrap; sleep; wrap.

Driving home last night I remembered: Dianna said VETRAP!! You ordered Vetrap from Omaha vaccine. It arrived Wednesday. Why don't you use it?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
So, last night I applied DMSO, cotton, and wrapped with vetrap. I was too wimpy to use vetrap alone.

That bandage doesn't look like it budged a bit this morning!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Well, I'm off to class.....

[slc2]

There is no way to guess from looking at the mare's photos what is the cause of the swollen legs. The mare needs to be seen by a vet, a very good vet, and I don't see any indication from these posts that this horse was ever looked at, maybe i missed this, but i find this very, very upsetting. The vet cannot guess from talking on the telephone or getting a verbal description, or seeing photos. The vet's statement, the first mistake was buying this mare and the second was reading, are correct. There is no amount of reading that can substitute for the judgement of an experienced, educated sport horse vet. Surely the leg appears to be a chronic lymphangitis, and I am guessing that whatever you paid for her was way too much. I would not assume she can carry a foal. I would never buy a mare for breeding unless I had had a vet culture her uterus and determine her legs and her whole body system can carry a foal to term and then nurse it.

And, a broodmare should never be bought without a vetterinary exam. There is no indication that the mare can be bred or gotten in foal otherwise. A mare that has not been bred for several years can be hard to get into foal, there may be very good reasons why mares don't 'take' for several years, even mares who have just foaled can get infections that prevent them from ever foaling again. Without a vet exam, you can't tell if the mare can conceive or carry a foal.

With this mare, breeding her may be completely out. I don't see how she can carry a foal to term on hind legs like that. If she does have lymphangitis, it's possible that carrying a foal could kill her. Broodmares must have excellent hind end structure and back structure just to carry the foal, and few mares with significant lameness can give birth to a foal. A brood mare can have scars, healed bowed tendons, and many other problems, but it has to have a good back and a good hind end. Asking a mare with a bad back end to carry a foal may be the cruelest and the last thing anyone asks her to do. Broodmare is a strenuous job and the mare has to be able to carry a foal.

Lymphangitis is not caused by the things named in these posts, I have Hayes' book, a much earlier edition most likely which I bought in 1970, and the book is not up to date in any way shape or form on lymphangitis; the first edition of the book came out in about 1917, and it has been little updated since, and its value doesn't lie in its currentness, but in other qualities.

Often the infection with lymphangitis was a strep infection, but it can be other bacteria as well.

It is caused by a bacterial infection that damages the lymphatic ducts and sets up a whole chain of chronic events in some cases in which the initial damage is severe.

The symptoms and how chronic they become depend completely on how extensive the damage to the lymph ducts was. It can be a little or a lot. The area where the lymph ducts are damaged is where the leg will be infected with bacteria over and over again, because the lymph system carries blood cells which fight infection, and where they can't get to, is where infection will commense again and again. in many horse's cases, after a long battle, with many ups and downs, the horse will be put down.

Lymphangitis is NOT rare.

However, there is no indication that what is wrong with that mare is lymphangitis. It could be any number of things, from scar tissue from old injuries to an abcess to, well, just about anything.

No, buying this mare without a vet check was a big mistake, regardless of what is making her hind legs look so bad. I have seen enough mares that should never have been bred die while carrying the foal or when they try to give birth, to say that without any doubt in my mind, every mare that is intended to be a broodmare must receive a careful and thorough check of reproductive health (reproductive organs as well as back and hind legs).

Broodmare prospects need to have their reproductive health checked,, and one must be very, very sure that their legs, back and general health would allow them to safely be mounted by a stallion, carry hundred of pounds of foal around, and safely give birth, being mounted, carrying a foal and giving birth is much harder than running a horse race.

Wrapping legs with vetwrap can be very dangerous, leaving polos, eskadrons and many of the other materials on would be a very big mistake, and using any bandaging material without padding underneath is very likely to do serious harm. Please work with a vet and if the vet recommends banadaging, get standing bandages, and be sure the bandages are not overly restrictive.

Too, you can't just keep wrapping to get the swelling out. The swelling needs to be treated and resolved. Something is interfering with the circulation, and that makes the leg a problem while carrying a foal, because once she is in foal, the problem with swelling is going to be about a hundred times worse, because she is more under strain. I would never breed this mare if she was mine. THat leg and carrying a foal are just not options to me, regardless of cause of the appearance of the leg.

Cold hosing, is, in fact, the worst thing for lymphangitis, that should be warm hosed or put in a turbulator, and very often bandaging is very bad for lymphangitis as well. COld hosing is for inflammation, and lymphangitis is not an inflammatory process (not in the sense of a strained tendon or blow) but a circulatory problem, and cold hosing is never used with lymphangitis.

the horse needs mild exercise to assist with the circulation, and i feel dexamethasone and DMSO would also be very, very ill advised to use on lymphangitis, the same for furacin; furacin because it is topical and the infection is not topical, so it will do nothing, dmso because it may take irritating substances under the skin. The recurring infections must be managed with systemic antibiotics, which may require quite high amounts because they cannot easily perfuse that area where the circulation is impaired. Turnout is good for these horses, but only if it does not result in exposing the leg to more infections, wet, mud and sand and kicks and blows from other horses, which all carry infectious agents that may get in the leg. In many cases, being kept in a clean, dry stall and being hand walked several times a day exposes them to less infection. Wrapping is not always the best idea, as the bandages themselves can abrade the seriously compromised skin and help to push infection in, and often these are very frustrating cases.

[This message was edited by slc on Feb. 28, 2004 at 08:47 AM.]

[This message was edited by slc on Feb. 28, 2004 at 08:49 AM.]

[This message was edited by slc on Feb. 28, 2004 at 08:52 AM.]

[This message was edited by slc on Feb. 28, 2004 at 08:53 AM.]

[Cherry]

Hansiska, has this mare not been seen by a vet yet???

If not, I would get one out there pronto!!!

I have seen two horses (same owner) die at the barn I am at because the horses had health issues that were not being addressed by a vet; the owner was convinced she could take care of the problems herself!!! The first horse went into respiratory distress, following at least ten months of chronic laminitis (from untreated Cushing's), and the second horse just fell down and died from malnutrition (she was "starving a fever", but accidentally starved the horse instead)... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif "A man's got to know his limitations!"...

I would get a vet in there and stop using all these concocted remedies before you lose this mare!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

"Take care, beware--of greedy leaders who take you where you should not go..." ~~George Harrison~~

[hansiska]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
slc--
I believe I covered the part about my decision to buy this mare. I'm well aware of the risks involved with buying an 18 year old broodmare, on the necessity that the broodmare be conformationally and physically sound. I bought this mare on the advice of people I respect and trust. She foaled last spring and wasn't rebred because her owner's stallion died. The price I paid, however, and the decision process I went through in the purchase are actually none of your business, nor are they the subject of this thread.

Let me repeat that this mare is sound, that only ONE leg is affected, that the mare has lived with this condition for perhaps a decade (which I do not condone), and that I described the situation in detail to the above-mentioned vet. Further, I am bringing her in to the clinic for a thorough exam in the near future.

I called the vet because I was worried that I should not wait until the appointment and I asked him directly if he would like to see the leg now. He didn't. He does not feel that it's an infection. I don't either. If you get the updated Hayes book, you will see, in the chapter dedicated to the lymph system, that there are several causes of lymphangitis. There are also a variety of treatments, some of which work for some horses and some of which don't.

For the record, the vet condoned the treatment I described. In fact, I feel I'm being much more aggressive with the leg than he would be -- he said, "yeah, you can try a standing wrap, but I'm not sure how much good it will do. You should realize that it may always be this way."

In other words, since antibiotics were not recommended, I feel strongly that this is a nursing, rather than a medical case.

Also, let me remind you that the advice I've received here is WORKING!!! Without the helpful suggestions and encouragement I've received from my fellow COTHers, I would be far behind in this mare's treatment. What they've suggested has done wonders.

Are you a vet, slc? If you're not a vet, by your own advice, I shouldn't listen to you. I find it interesting that while you're so willing to condemn the advice I've received, you're also willing to dole out plenty of your own. Based on what? Your own experience? Your 30-year old, out of date vet book?

I say this not to invoke your ire, but to gently remind you that I'm comfortable with my decisions, that I've consulted a licensed veterinarian, and that the topic on this thread is treatment of lymphangitis. If you don't like my decisions, well...you don't have to. I do feel that the other people here who have dealt with or are dealing with this condition are a great resource.
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[hansiska]

Good God, Cherry, do you think if she was in distress I'd not have called the vet out immediately? Let me remind all readers of this thread -- yet again -- that I have indeed been in contact with my vet over this and that it will be inspected closely at our scheduled vet visit. It was HIS decision not to come out to look at it.

Let me also say again that she is sound, well-nourished, and gets plenty of turnout. She's gained at least 50lbs since arriving in January.

Sudley, thanks for your advice; I will try it. I'd like to add that I appreciate your experience and your willingness to assume I'm a decent, consciencious horse owner capable of evaluating equine health, consulting an array of resources (including veterinarians), and making sound judgement calls. (Or am I just inferring too much?) I needed that.
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[Cherry]

I'm just following this thread and not getting a good feeling about this situation--just voicing my concern as a long time horsewoman... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

"Take care, beware--of greedy leaders who take you where you should not go..." ~~George Harrison~~

[Rebelspi]

hansiska- isnt this the mare that had the condition prior to when you bought her? if so, good for you! youre doing great.

if not- shame on you! no just kidding http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif you're doing a super job. keep in mind however, if she had lymphangitis years ago and it wasnt properly taken care of, that leg will never be "normal" it will probably always be prone to stock, and be puffier than the other. Good Luck!

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hansiska:
Are you a vet, slc? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, she just plays one on the internet... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." - Monty Python

[Barnfairy]

slc, I appreciate the valid points that you do bring up, but a couple things just aren't sitting well with me:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The vet's statement, the first mistake was buying this mare and the second was reading, are correct.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That may be true, slc, yet I find it intriguing as to why one would bother harping on it (meaning, buying the mare w/o vet check) after the fact. What's done is done. What would you have her do? Return the mare and get her money back? I mean, I can understand the lecture on not buying a mare with the intention of breeding her without first having a vet check, and the benefit of posting the lecture as a warning to others thinking of doing the same thing. In this particular case, however, the OP seems quite comfortable with her decision. She's not asking for our opinion on that, so why give it here on this thread?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There is no amount of reading that can substitute for the judgement of an experienced, educated sport horse vet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While I do not refute this statement, I do think there is something to be said for the value of attempting to further educate one's self through reading. If I were diagnosed with, oh heck, let's just say septicemia, would I just accept the course of treatment as laid out by my physician without also boning up on the subject, and talking to others who had gone through the same thing to see what did and didn't work for them? Of course not. If my doctor was irritated with me for reading about my affliction, that would be my cue to drop him faster than a hot potato! Why should it be any different when it comes to what ails our horses? I know I certainly appreciated the COTH forums as a sort of "support group" while helping my own gelding cope with cellulitis last summer.

I talked with my vet almost every day for several weeks when my boy had his nasty bout in June. Everything I did for my gelding, the initial cold hosing, the wrapping (even with vet rap over sheet cotton), the turnout, the drugs I administered (western and homeopathic), the DMSO, the warm lavage, these things were all done with my vet's consent. The treatment worked for us, and knowing first-hand what an awful ordeal the whole thing was, I post about it here sometimes as a way of saying, "We made it through, hang in there, and maybe you can too."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*toink*
*toink*
*TOING*

Damn it! Stupid wand! Now I have to do all these stalls by hand!

[This message was edited by Barnfairy on Feb. 28, 2004 at 03:27 PM.]

[slc2]

i stand on my previous statements, which were made after talking to a veterinarian as well.

i ALSO stand with CHERRY, who says as a horseperson, she is NOT COMFORTABLE With this situation. i am NOT COMFORTABLE with this situation as well.

whether you are comfortable or not, hansiska, doesn't make everyone else comfortable, the situation is raising some real red flags with several of the more experienced people reading this, and you can get as snippy as you like, it won't change that.

my statements are not based on reading a 30 year old book, but after 40 years with horses, and seeing a fair number of horses die of lymphangitis, being extensively involved in the treatment of some very severe cases, and seeing a fair number of mares die in foal or giving birth.

you don't know if the horse had this condition for 10 yrs, only what you were told when you bought it, when someone gave you a 'real deal' on a 'wonderful mare', which by no stretch of the imagination is guaranteed to be able to walk around in foal. even if the mare DID have it for 10 yrs, there is no guarantee that she can get in foal or carry a foal with a leg like that on her.

and wrapping it and seeing the swelling go down is NOT ''success'' or ''results''. when you wrap a leg, the swelling goes out temporarily. that is not ''results''. the underlying problem is still there. if it is lymphangitis, which remains to be proven, your treatments, especially the cold water, are NOT APPROPRIATE.

[Pol]

Cherry and slc, I think that since Hansiska already HAS the mare in her possession and is doing all she can to improve the mare's health and soundness that your harping about why she ever bought the horse is unnecessary. You have made your points. If you are still UNCOMFORTABLE, why not stop reading this thread?
Hansiska, just because you want so much to be told what to do http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, may I suggest that you make sure you are using good thick cottons under the Vetrap? The edges of Vetrap can bind really badly if they don't have padding under them. I had a horrible case of Lymphangitis in our 4 year old TB last summer. We had to ice him (bags of frozen peas), sweat him (DMSO/Furacin, Saran, cotton, Vetrap) and stick him in the neck 2xday with Naxel. It took ages....2 months maybe? Your vet may not be advising the antibiotic because the leg has been filled for so long. I think your trip to the clinic will be very interesting. Please do fill us in. With luck, noone will dump on you....

[Dianna]

If this is truly lymphagenitis, and you are not totally certain it is, it is truly a pain in the butt disease and is extremely difficult to treat and clear up. If it is lymphagenitis, even once the infection is gone the leg may be permanently swollen to some degree.

Lymphagenitis can be caused by either a fungus or a bacteria; and if your vet is certain it is lymphagenitis, then culturing the tissue is important because it will determine how to treat it effectively. If it is fungus based, then iodine or anti-fungal drugs are indicated. However, if it is from a bacteria, iodine or antibiotics that are effective against slow growing intracellular bacteria work best. The good news is that the antibiotic combination of erythromycin/rifampin have good results; but, the bad news is, the treatment is very, very expensive.

I know that one of the earlier posts indicated that cold hosing was not a good thing; but, I know that it is definitely one of the things that is suggested as a treatment for this problem, along with bute. Obviously you are seeing some improvement with your efforts and you should be commended, not berated for your thoughtful effort on this horse’s part. It is just so easy to sit and feel oh so superior in our posts ... but, the bottom line is BRAVA BABY, you are doing a great job. I like that you make decisions based on your comfort level - if you don’t feel comfortable working with vet wrap alone, then don’t. Do what you can do consistently and comfortably.

As far as vet = competent information ... they are human. My friend’s horse was out in the paddock last weekend. He came in three-legged lame. She called her vet, but his associate was on duty - a very well-respected sports medicine vet, by all opinions, a very good vet. She came, she ultrasounded, she diagnosed “check ligament” possible rupture definite sprain. Treatment: Ice 3x per day for 20 minutes and then dry and pain/scrub with a DMSO mixture she put together and wrap, and the horse could have access to its paddock.

When my friend and I arrived, we looked and said “baby bow”... you need to cool it totally, you need to totally confine horse, and you need to not be adding heat until it is totally cooled out. Four days later her vet came .... he revised his associate’s diagnoses to: bow, cool it out, confined to stall with no turnout or hand walking. When she told him about what we said, he laughed and asked if we had racetrack backgrounds - and she said “yes, why” and he said that our comment “baby bow” was because we were use to seeing racetrack bows ... So, you see, sometimes, even the best of vets make poor calls.

[Yowsa]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> When I bought my new mare I was told she had a tendency to stock up in one of her back legs. As it turns out, this "stocking up" is like none I've seen before. It's not soft, which makes me doubt it's edema at all, and it doesn't change according to amount of exercise or turnout. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the only statement that would concern me about the reputability of the people you bought this mare from. If they really only told you she tended to stock up, then they were not being honest with you about her condition. Have you contacted them to verify 1. how long she has had the problem and 2. what caused it? From reading your posts it sounds like you (and your farrier, etc.) are guessing what the cause could have been, but have not been told by the previous owners.

I would definately give them a call and get all the details you can about her condition- how long/ what caused/ what treatment they have done, etc- perhaps they or their vet have her old medical records that you could get your hands on?? That would save you a lot of money in the long run, so you do not have to start from square one again. Definately hunt down her old medical records if you can.

I'm glad for this horse that you were willing to adopt an 18 year old mare with a chronic problem- she obviously needs somebody like you to help her along- and I applaud you for that.

Fairweather- my horses are all that way with scratches- they are ultra sensitive- one little scab forms and instant elephant legs. MTG is great stuff for preventing it. Good luck with your surgery!!

[hansiska]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif My thanks to those of you who are supportive -- I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

In case anyone's wondering, I'm NOT cold hosing. I believe that was brought up as a suggestion, but since it was 8 degrees out when I started this, I decided to try sweating the leg first. And that worked, so I stuck with it.

I have no intention of contacting the previous owners. I actually believe they honestly thought the leg was stocked up. I was told in detail everything about this mare and her history, including the leg. Say what you want, but if they were going to be dishonest, they wouldn't have told me about the leg at all.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif
Thanks for the advice on the vetrap. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I do make sure the cotton is sticking out about 1/2 inch, top and bottom.

Today, her leg looks quite good. I've given up on the move to the track bandage and I'm sticking with the standing wraps. I ordered Saratogas and four no-bows from Dover's, so that should give me a few more options. FWIW, that 2" velcro is priceless; I just can't get the track bandages to stay on well without duct tape.

The vet did say that this will likely be something I'll be dealing with for the rest of my mare's life and that I'll likely not see a great deal of progress or change in the leg. (Imagine that, I heard the same thing here from one of you...) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif It really is nice to know there are others out there who've dealt with this. You guys are a wonderful resource!
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[hansiska]

Just a quick update...

The saga continues. The no-bows and Saratogas arrived in record time. The no-bows are luscious and work beautifully to keep the swelling down. The Saratogas also stay on well (even with full-time turn out), though some swelling does return when I use those. I'm quite pleased with my post-DMSO options and I've got a tub of poultice ready to try this weekend.
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[Dianna]

Brava to you ... your horse is very lucky to have somebody that is willing to take such an aggressive and hands-on interest in what I am sure is not very pleasant weather.

We are whining about the rain and cold (it is only in the 60's) ... I cannot even remember what it must be like for you. So, BRAVA BABY!!

[hansiska]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Thanks, Dianna! The weather is improving here. It's been around 40-50 degrees during the day and in the 30s at night, though it's been wet the last few days. It is nice to feel those fingers for the whole wrap job!

Thanks too for the support -- I adore my mare and believe I'm doing my best by her.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
The countdown to the vet visit begins...!

[hansiska]

Another update...

The vet looked at the mare's leg, then at the pictures of what it used to look like, and said what I've been doing is absolutely fine. He said even though I'm reducing the swelling mechanically, it's clearly helping and the mare is certainly more comfortable. What's more, because the condition has been in existence for over a month (and had been even before I got her) antibiotics are not recommended. He said she will likely have this condition for the rest of her life. As for determining whether it is lymphangitis or cellulitis, we could do biopsies to figure that out, but the result isn't going to change the treatment. It's chronic.

So... I seem to have gotten some good advice here -- but wait, I knew that already. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Dianna]

Isn't it great when we do something and it actually helps.