Hey LaurieB - You need to straighten out the Poodle people!

[DMK]

OK, OK, you need to straighten out the Miniature Poodle folks...

This quote from the owners of the 2002 Westminster BIS, Ch. Surrey Spice Girl:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "At this level, we're not in it for the money," says Ron Scott, another part-owner of Spice. "It's not like the horse racing industry. I've won more money in one horse race than in all my years in dogs. Dogs are a hobby sport vs. a money-making sport. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you think we could join Mr. Scott in this alternate universe? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[DMK]

OK, OK, you need to straighten out the Miniature Poodle folks...

This quote from the owners of the 2002 Westminster BIS, Ch. Surrey Spice Girl:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "At this level, we're not in it for the money," says Ron Scott, another part-owner of Spice. "It's not like the horse racing industry. I've won more money in one horse race than in all my years in dogs. Dogs are a hobby sport vs. a money-making sport. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you think we could join Mr. Scott in this alternate universe? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[Merry]

Oh I loved the commentary last night along the lines of, "These people don't do this for the money. They spend countless hours blahblahblah for nothing more than bragging rights and the chance at a piece of colored ribbon."

Uh, I believe you just described MY LIFE at horse shows! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[DMK]

I'd discuss it with you in more detail Merry, but I'm still working on the finer details of making my fortune in horses.

Maybe it will pay for all those dogs I want to buy after watching Westminster? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[2Dogs]

I now want a Sussex spaniel!!!!

But seriously, how could the announcer confuse a Weimeraner and a Vizla?

Back to betting on the ponies.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result"
Albert Einstein

[Calico]

What breed won? I fell asleep on the couch, but even before drifting off I thought the announcer was a little wacky.

[OldLadyOnATB]

Ok guys....thought I would let you know....I have been breeding and showing Scottish Terriers for 20 years or so. As for Westminster....been there and done that.

NO....you WILL NOT MAKE MONEY BREEDING DOGS AT THIS LEVEL.\ I can explain if you want...but trust me on this one. I also agree that unless you have a guardian angel and the luck of 18 zillion Irishmen, you aren't likely to make any money with horses either.....not at any level.

Of course...all the above is provided you do it the RIGHT WAY. Not cutting corners...

JMO!

Elizabeth

After all these years, I have gotten back into horses. God has blessed me and Heaven help me!

[Court@HJ-OH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moonkitty:
What breed won? I fell asleep on the couch, but even before drifting off I thought the announcer was a little wacky.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No one its about to go!

**Courtney**

[Madison]

It's the Newfoundland!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

[RHdobes]

FYI, they will replay tonight's 2nd half of Westminster tomorrow on USA Channel at 12:00 p.m. (noon) E.S.T.

Second, in dogs, like horses, it seems that the trainers/handlers are the only ones making money....

(The Newf was my second favorite but showed better than my favorite, the Ibizan Hound.)

[Sudley4me]

Josh, the Newfie, was fabulous. The Best in Show judge actually was the judge for the Working group last year and sent Josh as the group winner, so I wasn't too suprised that the Newfie won. And did you hear him talk??? OMG, soooo adorable ... he let everyone know he was happy he won. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I do agree that the Ibizian Hound was beautiful, though. When she had her ears pricked and looking down ... perfection. It was a really tough group, though. I could never be a judge ... it is just as hard as trying to place classes at Upperville. I just want to take them all home!!

-Natalie

proud member of the MOOP clique (although I am now positive that I have a pony in my 15.3hh bodied horse)

"All horses deserve, at least once in their lives, to be loved by a little girl."

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldLadyOnATB:
Ok guys....thought I would let you know....I have been breeding and showing Scottish Terriers for 20 years or so. As for Westminster....been there and done that.

_NO_....you WILL NOT MAKE MONEY BREEDING DOGS AT THIS LEVEL.\ I can explain if you want...but trust me on this one. I also agree that unless you have a guardian angel and the luck of 18 zillion Irishmen, you aren't likely to make any money with horses either.....not at any level.!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oldlady, we know that, or at least I know that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The point was the idea of making money in horses, as opposed to dogs. On the scale of how much more you can lose, overall I'm thinking horses, race horses, and /or betting on race horses has the edge hands down. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

You know the old saying? How do you make a little money in horses? Start with a lot!

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[Calico]

Haha, Court! Yeah, right after I posted, I turned on the TV, and guess what was on, duh!

The Newfie was strutting, wasn't he? But I was really rooting for that cute little terrier.

Did you guys see the thing on the dalmation, they were hacking out in a field.

[ShowJumps]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But seriously, how could the announcer confuse a Weimeraner and a Vizla?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you kidding?!? He can't even tell the difference between the Empire State Building and the Statue of Liberty!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I loffed the Norfolk Terrier soooo cute! It was funny to hear the announcer go on about how it makes no difference if the judge has judged the dog in prior shows right after he kept talking about how the judge placed the Newfie in best of group last year. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I need an intervention...

[This message was edited by ShowJumps on Feb. 11, 2004 at 09:00 AM.]

[OneonOne]

The Newfie won? Yay! I had a Newfie when I was a kid. I can't wait until I have the space to have another. What wonderful, wonderful dogs. My parents got our Newf when I was two months old - we grew up together. My mom says that Goofy (the Newfie!) taught me how to walk. I would pull myself up on his long hair and he would take little steps next to me. He used to roll me like a log across the floor with his nose, too. In fact, when I was 4 or so, my dad bought a little tiny pony saddle and I used to ride Goofy - at least until he was tired and sat down. (See, this is horse related!)

Goofy was 10 years old when he escaped the yard and animal control put him down before we were able to get him. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I will never forget that dog!

[caffeinated]

You know... if they can broadcast Westminster every year and do it in High Definition, why can't they do that for Devon or similar long-on-history horse shows?

hmph.

(congrats to the newfie, by the way, he was gorgeous, and no offense but I like him a lot more than that little "co co" thing)

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**

[budman]

I want to know why the Elkhounds never win. What is it, a conspiracy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I had the greatest Elkhound when I was a kid. I think maybe they just aren't "show" dogs at heart?

"There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be." Andy Adams
Gold Chips (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394805)
Blondie (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394809)

[Sleepy]

Ya know, caffeinated, I was thinking the same thing. Everyone on every board I'm on - other horse boards, cross stitch boards, locarb boards, you name it - is talking about Westminster. When did you EVER hear anyone talk about a horse show - of ANY kind - on a non-horse board. We are doing something seriously wrong here.

''Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.''
- Pablo Picasso

[susie09]

As a Poodle owner I had to root for Mickey. He is a gorgeous dog, but if he couldn't win I was glad that the Newfie did. Speaking of announcer errors, did anyone catch what the judge said when he was announcing the winner? I keep telling myself that I just imagined this, but I swear he said "Westminister" instead of "Westminster".

[EricaR]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by susie09:
I keep telling myself that I just imagined this, but I swear he said "Westminister" instead of "Westminster".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Happens a lot--my aunt pronounces it that way and it drives me NUTS!!!!

I was also rooting for the poodle. Then again, I always root for poodles. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What if the Hokey Pokey *IS* what its all about?

[my precious]

He DID say "Westminister". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Behind every successful woman is someone who pissed her off." - Karen Salmansohn

[Medievalist]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2Dogs:
I now want a Sussex spaniel!!!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My sister has one. She loves him. They are funny. I want a vizla. They are beautiful.

I wanted Kevin the Corgi to win. He was cute!

It looked to me like the Newfoundland tried to bite someone during the congratulationary phase. Anyone else see that?

Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

[Sandy M]

Why don't Elkhounds every win? Heck, why don't Vizlas or Min Pins ever win! (my personal favorites).

Still, I was delighted the Newfie won, and I would have been delighted if the Corgie or Norfolk or Ibizan Hound won .... ANYTHING BUT THAT REPULSIVE, PERSONALITYLESS LUMP OF FUR THAT THEY SEEM TO THINK IS A DOG. Yuck. I'm sorry if the Pekinese is someone's favorite breed, but I, personally, cannot STAND that dog.

[Medievalist]

Oh yeah, the Pekinese. He is sooooo ugly with that tongue lolling out of his mouth and those freakish bulgy eyes. I hate him too.

Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

[This message was edited by Medievalist on Feb. 11, 2004 at 11:27 AM.]

[wonky]

Hello my name is Wonky and em - well- you see -I own a poodle. I am in deep denial of this and cut her fur in unidentifiable patterns and tell people she's a Smartlington Terrier.

[Against The Wind]

I own a standard poodle and 2 bichon frises (what a combination, huh?). Yes, it did seem the newfie wanted to take a chunk out of a congratulatory handshake. To keep this horse related, our poodle loves to be at the barn and around the horses!! I thought the corgi was absolutely adorable. I also think there is alot of politics involved in the world of dog showing. JMHO.

~~I hear opportunity knocking, but I can't find the door!~~

[arabhorse2]

I wanted to see the Great Danes, but only got a minute or two. I have one, and they're the greatest dogs in the world. They look regal just sitting around and breathing.

I'm not a fan of dogs with a lot of long hair (all that maintenance), but I'm glad that pug-ugly Peke didn't win. Ack! What hideous dogs!

If you want to make a small fortune in the horse business, you must first start with a large one.

[nails]

I stayed up way to late but could not help it once the corgi won his group I had to see if he could win the whole thing. I thought he was just perfect. I did think that Josh tried to bite someone at the end-that would have been good, Huh? I wonder if they would take away his bowl....

[Lord Helpus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by caffeinated:
You know... if they can broadcast Westminster every year and do it in High Definition, why can't they do that for Devon or similar long-on-history horse shows? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm, just look at the number of people filling MSG for the dog show compared to the number of empty seats at the National Horse Show when they had it there (even taking into account all the free tickets they gave out to school children to fill the seats).

Horse shows just do not have the same appeal to the general public.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

[SillyHorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ShowJumps:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But seriously, how could the announcer confuse a Weimeraner and a Vizla?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you _kidding_?!? He can't even tell the difference between the Empire State Building and the Statue of Liberty!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I loffed the Norfolk Terrier soooo cute! It was funny to hear the announcer go on about how it makes no difference if the judge has judged the dog in prior shows right after he kept talking about how the judge placed the Newfie in best of group _last_ year. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I need an intervention...

[This message was edited by ShowJumps on Feb. 11, 2004 at 09:00 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like Fred Willard was doing the honors. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

SillyHorse
~ You can do anything if you want it bad enough. That is why we see so many people who can fly. ~

[Miriam]

My sister and I decided that the Peke looked like a beaver on rampage when it trotted out. I love Westminster. It's great exposure for some of the less well-known breeds. It is a shame that we don't get similar coverage. Of course, they kept comparing it to the Kentucky Derby, and that DOES get covered. It just depends on the audience, I suppose.

"One thing vampire children have to be taught early is, don't run with a wooden stake."

[artienallie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
I wanted Kevin the Corgi to win. He was cute!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My claim to fame: Kevin the Corgi absolutley TROUNCED my corgi Marbles at the Old Dominion Kennel Show. He was 1st. She managed to come in 4th - out of 4. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

[Finzean]

Just a question with regard to the pronunciation of specific words....could we pplllleeeeaaassseee get a consensus on Samoyed?!?!?! Enough already! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't do hair either but that Newfie rocked.

I think we would fill the seats at horse shows and have a better shot at tv coverage if we could incorporate more gamblers choice jumping, the thing (proper term escapes me, someone help out) where two riders compete at the same time - like a show-jumping-course-race; I also think that if there were some sort of crazy gymkhana type events it would draw crowds. yeah, totally not show hunter-ish but in the States watching hunters and dressage means nothing to the average television watching Joe and Jane Public. To really appreciate a hunter round or dressage, you sort of have to understand it. Barrel racing gets coverage as it is part of the rodeo stuff (bull riding, bronc busting, etc) and people watch it because it is sound bite quick and folks can understand & appreciate it. Most of my family and friends find the hunters & dressage boring; cross country too difficult to watch in person because you can't have a vantage at every fence for every horse; show jumping is neat the first few rounds. If I wasn't a horse person, I'd probably feel the same way.

Fine I give up, do it your way: heels up, eyes down!!

[Remi and me]

The 13 inch Beagle in the hound group GOT RIPPED OFF! He should have Won! (I have 4 Beagles. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ). And I loved the Harrier and the American Foxhound...to keep this horse related. I wonder if those hounds actually hunt or are they strictly bench dogs?

Vermont - where winter riders are real riders.

[caffeinated]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by caffeinated:
You know... if they can broadcast Westminster every year and do it in High Definition, why can't they do that for Devon or similar long-on-history horse shows? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm, just look at the number of people filling MSG for the dog show compared to the number of empty seats at the National Horse Show when they had it there (even taking into account all the free tickets they gave out to school children to fill the seats).

Horse shows just do not have the same appeal to the general public.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah but half the reason people go is because it's televised and so they know it's happening (or they're families of the dog breeders involved, etc) Meaning- some of the public interest has to come from things being publicized and broadcast properly... IMO... If for a few years one television network made a HUGE deal about devon and how great it was and paid some announcers to make dorky comments... maybe it would help *grin*

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**

[OneonOne]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Remi and me:
I wonder if those hounds actually hunt or are they strictly bench dogs?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good question. There was a thread recently about a top showjumping rider taking his top prix horse on a formal hunt. Maybe these people send their hounds to the field to keep them fresh. I would hope that they are breeding for hunting ability, not just perfect conformation. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Janet]

Hounds taht show are registered with the AKC.

Hounds that hunt are registered with the MFHA.

I don't think there is a lot of cross registering.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[GotSpots]

Not a fan of the hair on the Peke either, but I thought the Corgi showed marvelously.

On the other hand, I am a Puli person, and so adore the look of the cords, along with the Puli grin. I thought the Puli that made it into the herding group was quite nice.

[Sonesta]

While I, too, am sick to death of that Peke, Les, I have to chime in here and say that I have met Les and his handler, Hiram, many times at the dog shows. Hiram is a class act -- very nice and personable. I hope he has another dog coming along to take Les's place (and I hope it's NOT another Peke!).

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) - breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses.&lt;BR&gt;
"Find something you love & call it work."

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Just a question with regard to the pronunciation of specific words....could we pplllleeeeaaassseee get a consensus on Samoyed?!?!?! Enough already! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My grandmother and one of her nieces(I guess that mkeas her my first cousin once removed?) were among the first breeders of Sammys, when they were first imported from Russia to England. I learned to walk hanging onto a Sammy. My father has had them for the last 30 years.

We have always pronounced it
Sam -oy- ed
Where the first and last syllables sound just like the male names Sam and Ed, and the middle syllable rhymes with toy.

But whether or not that reflects the way the arctic Somoyede people pronounce it, I have no idea.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[OneonOne]

Janet - thanks for clearing that up. I'd forgotten about registering with MFHA.

[hitchinmygetalong]

My two cents:

The "Parson Russell Terrier" was YUCK YUCK YUCK not not not a Jack by any reach stretch or fabrication of the imagination. I'm stickin' with JACKS. Thank goodness for www.terrier.com (http://www.terrier.com) and people like Kryswyn!

Not only was the Newf gorgeous, he moved beautifully. I was cheering him all the way, though I like a nice Standard Poodle too. Just wish they clipped them so they looked like dogs. I'm glad to hear folks on the boards have them and that they are good barn dogs. My Jack is 11 and has many years to go but I'm debating a Standard for my next dog. At least maybe it will listen to me ALL the time as opposed just the occasional moment.

And to make it horsey (see, Erin, we know you are spying on us), the Chinese Crested did look like a little horse, didn't it? Complete with mane, tail, and feathers! (They still give me the creeps, though.)

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

[OneonOne]

I kind of like the Chinese Cresteds. Budweiser could have used one for their donkey commercial - they already have feathers! No need for extensions! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Portia]

I think there's an unofficial, once a year, non-horsey exception for a Westminster dog talk thread. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Every year during Westminster I come up with a list of thoroughly unsuitable dogs I'd loff to have (thoroughly unsuitable for a single woman who lives in a duplex with a very small yard and is seldom home, that is). Every time I see a Shiba Inu, I want one! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

On the performance dog versus bench dog point, it was interesting to hear how many of the top show dogs also had obediance, water dog, agility, and other performance certifications.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell.

[2Dogs]

back to Josh - what a cool dog - and I loved his barking for the final lap - for once a dog got to act and SOUND like a dog at Westminster.
As for the Parson JRT? Well, I am mighty confused about all of it. As long as I have had JRT's (looong time) and as long as I have gone to Ireland and England, I have had and seen SHORT little buggers. The whole revolution of the taller JRT has been mystifying and I don't know when the move to get in with the AKC started - far as I could tell, there was a determined movement to prevent that from happening. And I thought that the addition of "Parson" JRT was to appease old folks like me (maybe) who think a JRT is a dog under 12 inches high, and to make the AKC branded JRT recognized as the taller version. I dunno.

But that Sussex spaniel - waggy tail - was just such a sweetheart. What did they call him - "Stumpy"?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result"
Albert Einstein

[hitchinmygetalong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
On the performance dog versus bench dog point, it was interesting to hear how many of the top show dogs also had obediance, water dog, agility, and other performance certifications.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
_I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell._<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The breed winner in Visla's (a dog from Lexington, Kentucky, by the way http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) is a "hearing aid" dog for its owner!

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

[Portia]

Here's the official AKC spin on the "Parson Russell Terrier" (why wasn't Jack good enough?)

AKC Parson Russell Terrier (http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/jrt.cfm)

~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell.

[Duffy]

I agree - the Sussex Spaniel (Stumpy) was adorable, as was the Norfolk Terrier. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"B***h in training"

[nycjumper]

I was thrilled to see a big dog win & a very "doggy" dog at that http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Nothing against the little terriers but I'm a fan of the bigger bunch http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
Have a full list of dogs I'm drooling over:
Anatolian Shepherd (all 150 pounds of them!)
Great Dane
Rottweiler
Vizla
Rhodesian Ridgeback
Belgian Malinois
Bloodhound

Somehow I don't think any of them would do well in my 650 square foot apartment in Manhattan http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[hitchinmygetalong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
Here's the official AKC spin on the "Parson Russell Terrier" (why wasn't Jack good enough?)

http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/jrt.cfm

~~~~~~~~~~~~
_I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell._<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this is confusing. According to the AKC:

"The name of the Jack Russell Terrier was changed to the Parson Russell Terrier effective April 1, 2003 as requested by the Jack Russell Terrier Association of America, which was changed to the Parson Russell Terrier Association of America."

Well, that's news to me. I thought the JRTCA was always, still is, and forever will be the JRTCA, not the "PRTAA."

Oh KRYSWYN!!!! Where are you? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif We be muy confused! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

[LMH]

Has LaruieB been suspicously absent from this thread? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[Just My Style]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The "Parson Russell Terrier" was YUCK YUCK YUCK not not not a Jack by any reach stretch or fabrication of the imagination. I'm stickin' with JACKS. Thank goodness for www.terrier.com (http://www.terrier.com) and people like Kryswyn!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what was wrong with the Parson Russell Terrier? (And for the record- I am opposed to the stupid name change. I call mine a JRT and always will, regardless of what ever the show people want to call them.) Not that I am an expert, but I thought it was pretty nice. I went to the terrier.com site that you posted and pulled this description:
"General Appearance
A sturdy, tough terrier, very much on its toes all the time, measuring between 10" and 15" at the withers. The body length must be in proportion to the height, and it should present a compact, balanced image, always being in solid, hard condition."

There is no way that dog could have been over 15", so he was not too tall. I am not trying to pick a fight, but I have a Jack and he is a "taller" vs. "shorter" ones. Mine is Foxwarren breeding and they are typically "taller", but still very much with in breed standard. But then again, my height perception may be off because my other dog is Great Dane. Everything looks short next to him.

My mom is friends with the handler and owners of the Newfie- Josh. They really had hoped for a win, but the talk in the political circles was that the terrier had the best in show all wrapped up. Everyone was shocked when it wasn't him, even though the Newfie showed much better. We were all so excited for them and Josh certainly was excited about his win. He sure barked and let the crowd know all about it.

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

[Sandy M]

Artie, that Peke did have enough personalty or Energy to be a "beaver on a rampage." ROFLOLPIMP

I thought maybe it was on wheels and he just pulled it along like a child's toy. I'm sure the handler is a nice gentleman, and for all I know, the dog is a "luv" but he sure just looks like a repulsive hairy lump. It's not just the squashed in face - pugs have squashed in faces but are CUTE... because they look like dogs and display personality, but that.... THING....shudder. If I found it in my bed, I'd reach for the roach spray.

A poster on another board said that her Bull Terrier was glued to the tv set until the Peke came on: He then turned away. She thinks he didn't recognized it as a "dog." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[GatoGordo]

Yaaaaay! Didn't get to watch, but I LOFF Newfies! Heh heh, when I get my own place, you won't be able to find the couches because of Golden and Newf hair! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

A couple years ago, I met a Viszla on a weekend camping trip. Very nice dog, MUCH less hair than Goldens, high energy, loves to retrieve. Plus, I love to play with the name:
Veni, vidi, viszla sum -- I came, I saw, I am a retriever ??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Tomboy]

I know the story behind the JRT name change... and its good. You have to first understand that the Jack Russell Terrier Club of America (JRTCA) does not allow people who register their terriers with all breed registries to register their dogs with them. So, no AKC people allowed. This is to preserve the hunting and working nature of the breed, not the showring nature as all breed regsities are promoting. Well, the little AKC people became quite ticked and Sued the JRTCA saying it was illegal to ban people who were members of the AKC from being members of the JRTCA. A few years, and a lot of money later, the JRTCA won. (YAYY! Im a member of the JRTCA) The AKC is still trying to apeal, but it looks unlikely they will win. THe JRTCA is allowed to exculde them from membership. After that came through, the AKC's JRT affilate club requested the name of the terrier be changed. I see it as they wanted to distance themselves from the JRTCA. The breed is diverging, the show ring JRT (AKC) and the working JRT (JRTCA. The ACK has always had the standard that their dogs must be Over 12 1/2 inches i think. Their heighth is still the same, its only the name that has changed. They just want nothing to do with the JRTCA since they lost the law suit. The JRTCA takes 10''- 15'' as standard. However, they focus more on the hunting nature of the dog. Can the dog do the job intended.

Ok, off my Jack Russell soap box. I have one, and will never get an AKC JRT.

And on to another one.
IF the dog show gets the garden.. why dont we.
Yarg.

Edited to add:
here is the JRTCA's stance on the AKC (http://www.terrier.com/jrtca/noakc.php3)

ill re edit if i can find the link about the lawsuit...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Teen Clique, Selle Francais Clique, and of course
Riders of Rohan

“Life is not about how fast you run, or how high you climb, but how well you bounce.” –unknown

[Sandy M]

Once on a trail ride, I ran into a couple with a pair of Viszlas, a male and a female. The male stood quietly apart, but the female was just "quivering" when she saw my horse. The woman said, "Oh, she's always wanted a horse of her own" (she meant the dog!), and could she approach. I said yes, because my horse generally likes dogs or anything interesting/furry, etc. The Viszla walked up to my horse, touch his nose with hers, and they stood nose to nose for several minutes. Then the dog licked my horse's nose, and my horse started to lick the dog's head and back. It just stood there and let her, then quietly backed away when her owner tugged on the leash. I've wanted a Vizsla ever since, but we can only have ONE dog at our duplex and we have a Min Pin. So.... but some day.

[Tomboy]

Ok, heres the law suit link (http://www.terrier.com/notices/lawsuit.php3)

Took digging, but i found it.
That might explain the name change better than i did. The AKC is still licking their wounds. It was a happy day when i learned we won... (sorry to all AKC people i know i offened)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Teen Clique, Selle Francais Clique, and of course
Riders of Rohan

“Life is not about how fast you run, or how high you climb, but how well you bounce.” –unknown

[fernie fox]

Is any one here old enough to remember,Bill and Bridget Sayner,who came over here from Uk.to judge JRTs.many years ago.

They were great characters and of course the Jacks we had as kids came from Bill.

They were a lot smaller than many I see here.

They were all working terriers from The Hambledon Hunt",

Bill was our terrier man for many years.

fernie fox
"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".

[hitchinmygetalong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just My Style:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The "Parson Russell Terrier" was YUCK YUCK YUCK not not not a Jack by any reach stretch or fabrication of the imagination. I'm stickin' with JACKS. Thank goodness for http://www.terrier.com and people like Kryswyn!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what was wrong with the Parson Russell Terrier? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, let's start by saying this is JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION, okay?

Too long-legged (but I have always favored the "square" Jacks), too fine-boned. Nicely marked, appeared to have a decent (but plucked, which is normal for broken-coats in bench shows) coat. But for the life of me I could NOT see that dog running rampant over hill and dale with a handful of his best buds chasing whatever crossed their paths.

My Jack is 12 x 12 x 12 - 12" tall, 12" "withers" to tail, 12 pounds. She's got good straight legs, decent feet, and the heart of a lion. As soon as people start breeding dogs to fit a strict standard, you start losing something.

Well, I could go on and on and on. But as you can see, I'm passionate about Jacks and I for one am very glad there is the name difference now.

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

[2Dogs]

and my JRT's are under 12 inches and weigh 11 lbs and are the best. Not to diss the longer legged JRT's, or the Parson JRT's or any JRT's for that matter, but far as I am concerned, the true JRT is a squat character, under 12 inches, who can actually get into any hole he or she wants.

Uh oh, a sore point with me. I will shut my mouth now and hope I have not offended http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result"
Albert Einstein

[RHdobes]

I've heard that the (working) Australian Shepherd people and Border Collie people felt the same way about AKC recognition of THEIR breeds. (Has anyone noticed how the AKC BCs seem to resemble Aussies more than working BCs? JMO.)

I think the show Dobermans are too fine; the (Doberman show people think the European Dobermans are too coarse.

I get tired of Poodles---Toy, Miniature, and Standard---winning and placing in their groups simply, again JMO, because of the fancy movement and hair styles. For God's sake! ALL of those dogs are champions, judges! You CAN'T be faulted for choosing something else!

I think that Pekes are one of those breeds that (when trimmed down) are 'so ugly that they are cute'; however, the show coat has got to be the ugliest thing in the AKC show world! Who in their right mind developed/exaggerated THAT style! I wish someone would get radical and show a Peke styled radically different.

I feel that the French Bulldog outshowed the Poodle(s) in the Non-Sporting Group, and that the Terrier Group should have been won by the Colored Bull Terrier. I liked the Newfie but also felt that the Great Pyrenees should have made the cut in the Working Group. The Briard was one of my choices in the Herding Group

All that being said, I recently realized that if the Doberman Pinscher did not exist at all (a question posed by a Doberman message board), I would own a Standard Poodle---with an easier cut, of course. (Oh, did you know that Poodles used to be or could have been shown with CORDS?)

For a conformation event and being an obedience person, I like Westminster, but I wish we could hear more about the personal backgrounds of each dog. Given a choice of going to a big dog show, however, I would choose the British Crufts Dog Show.

rhDOBES, "mother" of Doberman Pinscher As My Whimsy Takes Me CD, ASCA-CD, SKC-CD (a.k.a. "Peter"), who's last "doggy dressage" score (Novice) was 197 out of 200 points---that's 98.5%, DRESSAGE DIVAS! ;-)

[Beezer]

2Dogs' and Hitch's posts perfectly illustrate the "difference" between JRTs and Parson Terriers. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

JRTCA terriers can run the gamut from "puds" to long-legged -- often in the same litter, as my two prove http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ; the "standard" is a broad definition with the emphasis on hunting ability; and breeders have to pledge that they will keep that ability foremost in their programs.

AKC terriers are bred to a standard that puts appearance first, including height.

Frankly, I consider the great variety of types and styles among JRTCA terriers to be one of their best assets. A Jack Russell should be defined as much -- if not more -- by its scrappiness, hunting talent and personality as it is by its looks. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Can any of us see a big difference between Jack Russells and Parson Russells? Perhaps not now. But I would be willing to bet that even five years from now, the two breeds/types will be very easy to tell apart.

As far as the BIS winner, I gotta say, I was SO GLAD to see the Newfie win! The terrier was damn cute and the Sussex Spaniel was a dear, but that Newfie tried his guts out. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

***** Currently assigned to the mouth-gaping, lip-flapping, head-twisting, wood-chewing, boot-shredding phase of baby greenie ownership! *****

[Simkie]

Can't believe I missed it AGAIN. Every year, I swear I'm going to remember.

Can anyone tell me which Ridgeback and which Britney took breed?

(I used to work for the top Britney breeder in the country. Anyone remember Dennis Jordan and Ch Jordean's All Kiddin Aside? They took breed for 3-4 years running, and it was always cool to see Dennis and Ollie on tv)

[-ponybreath-]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Remi and me:
The 13 inch Beagle in the hound group GOT RIPPED OFF! He should have Won! (I have 4 Beagles. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ). And I loved the Harrier and the American Foxhound...to keep this horse related. I wonder if those hounds actually hunt or are they strictly bench dogs?

Vermont - where winter riders are real riders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree the Beagle WAS SO CUTE! (I have ONE BEAGLE!!) I think Beagles tend to get overlooked in these shows. LOL. I am not a dog show person though, so maybe I don't know!

-Meghan
(formerly Meg!)
visit http://www.starsandstripeswelsh.com -- home of ASP First Premium Stallion -- Tylwyth Mystic Prince

[ShowJumps]

The show entries filled two hours after they opened! If you wonder why any of the horse shows aren't as popular check out the club's site. Tons of information on everything ~ even results as they were placed... The show itself is run the same way. Maybe the USAEF should have the Westminster marketing dept of the show give clinics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Westminster (http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/)

I need an intervention...

[hitchinmygetalong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simkie:
Can't believe I missed it AGAIN. Every year, I swear I'm going to remember.

Can anyone tell me which Ridgeback and which Britney took breed?

(I used to work for the top Britney breeder in the country. Anyone remember Dennis Jordan and Ch Jordean's All Kiddin Aside? They took breed for 3-4 years running, and it was always cool to see Dennis and Ollie on tv)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you click on showjumps link (posted directly above) you can review ALL the winners. Have fun!

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

[darcydude]

To Got Spots. I love pulik too. I have one who is 14 years old and is slowing down a little. But they are wonderful dogs and I will be devastated when he is gone.

"Why am I so soft in the middle when the rest of my life is so hard." Paul Simon

[WindWhistler82]

Iam so glad the Newfie won too. I loved him. Didn't he come in second at Westminster last year?

--Katie--

"Today is the Tomorrow you worried about Yesterday"

[Kryswyn]

(Thanks Hitch for giving me a heads up on this!)

Ahh yes, the origin of the Jack Russell...

Let's get one thing straight from the start. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The Reverand John Russell (aka Jack) was a FOX HUNTER. He maintained a private pack of fox hounds and while it's very true he had a pack of white bodied rough coated terriers (beginning with the bitch Trump as it's foundation) he did not rat, rabbit, or badger hunt with them. They were exclusively used by him and bred by him to BOLT foxes (not kill them) so that the hunt could continue. They were baying terriers so that you could hear where the terrier was so if you needed to get to the dog you could tell where it was.

Given the nature of their job, Rev. Russell bred terriers to be the same size and weight as a vixen fox (hence "Where goes the fox, so goes the Jack Russell Terrier). That would put the Rev's ideal size at about 13-14" inches and the same # of lbs. Despite later pictures of hunt staff or terriermen carrying dogs in leather pouches, the Rev's terriers ran with the hounds often getting to an earth before the hounds because they were clever enough to remember where a fox had gone to ground before (this is from the Memoirs of the Rev. Jack Russell).

Now unlike Ben Hardaway's foxhounds (who run fox and ONLY fox TYVM!) Russell's terriers were certainly useful around a barn or house killing rats, rabbits, cats, chickens or pretty much anything else that moved fast that wasn't on the other side of a sturdy fence (and sometimes that wasn't enough I'm sure LOL).

Naturally, types developed that were more suited for smaller game (rats) and larger game (badgers). In fact, the original standard for the Jack Russell in England was written by Arthur Heinman (sp) who was known as a badgerman and his interpretation of the JRT was a MUCH larger dog w/ much more bone and bigger jaws more appropriate for hunting the larger, heavier badger.

So, although the short legged, barrel-chested, smooth coated terriers are very lovable and certainly are true "terriers" they are not designed to go after fox. Although the desire to go down any hole is there, a barrel-chested terrier is not as capable below ground as a spannable, flexible chested dog. They could never have kept up with hounds (hence the development of the 'terrier bag'. I'm NOT saying that the shorties were never used on fox in the late 1800's early 1900's because to a terrierman, a terrier is a tool, and you use the best tool you have for a job, and if you only have a wide hard chested 'tool' you resign yourself to digging for him... a lot.

Now flash forward to today. (second post follows)

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

[Kryswyn]

When Ailsa Crawford formed the JRTCA in 1976, the standard called for a balanced terrier between 10"-15" tall at least 51% white. This has never changed. Now in the beginning early trials were full of what we now call shorties or puds. I have records of some of the early trials where the English terrier men brought over to judge were dismayed at the quality of the dogs brought to them. Over time that has certainly changed (thanks in part to the Sayners previously mentioned whose dogs show up in the pedigrees of many JRT's of today.)

Today at any JRTCA trial you will rarely see a shorty in the conformation ring, unless it's in the "Man's Best Friend" class which is NOT judged on the standard. However, the shorties frequently compete (and kick a$$) in racing, GTG and Agility.

Now that pesky name thang. Marilyn Mackay-Smith (wife of Alexander) was a contemporary of Ailsa and also believed that Kennel Club affiliation would be the ruination of the breed. To prevent what was already being moved on in England (defining the square terriers as Parson Jack Russell Terriers, Marilyn registered that name as a tradename in the USA, thereby preventing ANY one or group from using it. That is why when a splinter group of the JRTCA the Jack Russell Terrier BREEDER'S Association persued AKC registration they had no choice but to go with the name Jack Russell Terrier. In the meantime, MM-S sold the tradename to the JRTCA for a dollar with the understanding it would never be sold. After AKC recognition was a done deal, and as an attempt to thwart the lawsuit, the Registrar of the JRTCA sold the name to the Breeder's Association (now known as the JRT Association of America) which is the parent club of the AKC Jack Russells. This pleased the AKCers very much as they could now separate their "purebred, pedigreed" dogs from "those backyard terriers of mixed lineage" known as Jack Russells. However this sale of the name was viewed as traitorous by many.

Although some would like to believe that the PRT and the JRT are different breeds, they are not yet though the changes can already be seen. As an example, the PRT that won BOB at Westminster was out of Eastlake Ava orginally registered with the JRTCA who won many JRTCA awards including, I believe, a Bronze Medallion for special merit in the field. Eastlake Ava is the dam of MANY JRTCA registered dogs (as well as AKC dogs, her owner dual registered her). So at this point to say her son is a different breed is ... well a little ridiculous.

To the poster (sorry I forget whom) who stated that she had JRTs and would always call them JRTs, don't worry http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif unless your dogs are AKC registered, they can't be Parson Russell Terriers. (Lol I know you're relieved).

And as for the lawsuit, it needs to be said in fairness to the AKC, the suit was brought by a JRTCA affiliate club originally to seek a legal opinion stating that the club HAD THE RIGHT to exclude AKC folks wanting to show their dogs at JRTCA events. The affilate club BOD members were threated with PERSONAL lawsuits from AKC members if they were not allowed to participate and the JRTCA refused to indemnify the affliate BOD against any losses that might occur. This affiliate vs JRTCA suit was joined by the AKC and while the JRTCA won (and really after reading ALL the documentation I still can't see how the Judge decided in our favor) it is under appeal.

Here endeth the lesson...

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

[Kryswyn]

Oops, my bad. I lied, lesson not over http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The Reverand Russell did not breed "Jack Russells". He bred fox terriers (duh, cuz they hunted fox LOL) That 13-14" white bodied terrier of his were the foundation for the dogs known as Fox Terriers orignally shown at the first English Kennel Club show in the 1870's. Where they became darlings of the fancy and were taken out of the hunt field and bred exclusively for the show ring and "style". In less than 40 years the breed moved from the Parson's water shedding rough coated spannable 13" terrier to a type easily recognized as the Wire Fox Terrier of today requiring special grooming and clipping and whose coat is totally useless in the hunt field for protecting the dog from briars and damp.

If you look at the Smooth Fox Terrier with it's deep, deep chest you'll see that there is no way that dog can fit through a 9" hole (typical of fox earths).

What I find sadly laughable is that there is no chance this metamorphosis will NOT happen again as breeders follow the fads of what wins in the ring, trying to breed dogs to appeal to judges who have NO CLUE what this dog was bred for. Many AKC judges do not span the PRTs correctly or care if they are spannable. High flashy gaiting is rewarded instead of the ground covering efficient stride.

I hope to live long enough to see what they'll call the breed in 40 years when it looks just like the Wire Fox (albeit shown "in a natural coat, obvious sculpting to be heavily penalized".

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

[Sandy M]

Rhdobes - I, too, was REALLY impressed by the colored Bull Terrier too. I thought he was quite a sensational MOVER for his breed. Better than either of his fellow bull terriers (white/mini), and than most of the others in the group, plus he showed extremely well.

[Portia]

Thanks for the lesson, Kryswyn. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's interesting (and horse related even! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) to see that the dog world is the same as the horse world in its tendencies to breed to follow show ring trends rather than historical use. Your fox terrier/JRT differences history sounds a lot like the story of the differences between a halter QH and a cutting QH or a halter Arab and an endurance Arab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell.

[Remi and me]

I guess the JRT thing is similar to the Beagle thing - originally there was only Beagles 13" or less. Breeders started to breed for what the hunters needed. Smaller beagles for easy going or coonie (which are small rabbits)hunting and larger Beagles for heavy deep snow and snowshoe rabbit hunting. So now the Beagles are grouped by size -13" or 15". In the Beagle trial world they are 13" and under or under 15". I wonder if the Parson/JR will go this route in time.
Also, running Beagles look nothing like bench Beagles. The runners are much heavier and strudy while the benches are almost petite in type.
Just my musings..
I love dogs! I have 5!

Vermont - where winter riders are real riders.

[EricaR]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RHdobes:

Oh, did you know that Poodles used to be or could have been shown with CORDS?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, corded coats are harder to take care of than the standard continental cut.

Most people think that poodles are just fluff, and that the haircut is rather stupid, but most poodle historians agree that the haircut actually had a place in the working-dog past of the poodle.

The continental cut is the cut most usually seen in the showring. Keeping in mind that the poodle was originally bred to be a water retriever, the big mane of hair on the chest was to keep the internal organs warm, the puffs on the back to keep the kidneys warm, the joint puffs did the same for all four ankles, and the head and tail puffs allowed the hunter to spot his dog in the water. That said, the cut is highly stylized these days, but there are a small number of people who show their dogs in a cut called the "Historically Correct Contental", which is not stylized and really does show the roots of the dog.

[/poodle rant]

What if the Hokey Pokey *IS* what its all about?

[Janet]

What does "spannable" mean?

BTW, my great uncle was, in his younger days (first- middle half of the 20th century) a terrier man for the hunt. He lived in Oakham, in the County of Rutland, in England. I don't know the name of the hunt, but it was run by the local Duke, on whose estate Uncle Arthur had his primary job, as head gardener.

He had some funny stories.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[Just My Style]

Kryswyn to the rescue! She is the resident JRT expert. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That was basically what I was told by my breeder. Anything from 10-15 is in the standard, but with slightly different original purposes. It is a shame that I see the progression to the split.

I am not knocking the AKC, but their standards sometimes get away from the dogs original purposes. My mother is in to PBGVs. They started out in France as pretty fierce small game (rabbit/ badger/ etc.) pack hunters. The dogs that are winning in the show ring now with the smaller bone and softer coats are not what the French had in mind. That is why my mom has gotten away from the breed ring and more in to obedience and hunting instinct trials. They are hounds and she just isn't in to the new compact lap dog- fluffy coat PBGV.

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

[Ride'emCO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandy M:
Once on a trail ride, I ran into a couple with a pair of Viszlas, a male and a female. The male stood quietly apart, but the female was just "quivering" when she saw my horse. The woman said, "Oh, she's always wanted a horse of her own" (she meant the dog!), and could she approach. I said yes, because my horse generally likes dogs or anything interesting/furry, etc. The Viszla walked up to my horse, touch his nose with hers, and they stood nose to nose for several minutes. Then the dog licked my horse's nose, and my horse started to lick the dog's head and back. It just stood there and let her, then quietly backed away when her owner tugged on the leash. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the cutest thing I have ever heard. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

[Portia]

When I was a kid my sister had asthma, so the only dog we could have was a poodle. We had a well-bred black miniature officially named Count Nicardo de Montegue, a.k.a. Nicky. He was as tough a dog as you could ever want. My father regularly took him out duck hunting and used him as his water retriever. The only problem with Nicky as a retriever was that when he got tired he was smart enough to say no and then go back to the car and wait. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

And Sandy M., that is a darling story. Some dogs really are horse lovers. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell.

[Peggy]

My parents had Viszlas for years. Wonderful dogs.

Their friends who introduced them to the breed have quite a thriving greeting card business that features photos of dogs (theirs and neighbors) in costume with props. It all started with their Christmas cards that evolved from relatively normal photos of the Viszlas to more elaborate costumed photos. Someone suggested they start a business and the rest is history.

[Kryswyn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
What does "spannable" mean?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spannable means being able to place your hands, middle finger touching middle finger, and thumb touching or overlapping thumb around a terrier's chest just behind the front legs while lifting the front end off the ground. You are feeling the size, shape and flexibility of the ribcage. Ideally the terrier's chest "squishes" a bit rather than being hard which makes it easier for the terrier to navigate underground.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>BTW, my great uncle was, in his younger days (first- middle half of the 20th century) a terrier man for the hunt. He lived in Oakham, in the County of Rutland, in England. I don't know the name of the hunt, but it was run by the local Duke, on whose estate Uncle Arthur had his primary job, as head gardener.

He had some funny stories.

Janet
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll ask Jim Meads next chance I get. He's the running photographer and he knows every hunt in England.

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

[pap2labc]

One of the things I'd like to point out about the AKC is that they do not set the standards. The national breed club sets the standards and submits them for AKC approval. The Border Collie Society of America recently revised their standard, sent it to AKC, and it was approved. Like the JRT/PRT there are huge fights and arguments between conformation/working/performance people and registeries as well. I own working bcs and do show in AKC performance events...even, gasp, conformation from time to time. We lose a lot in conformation to those dogs from import show lines, but I can't blame the AKC for "ruining" the breed. The breeders ruin the breed. The exhibitors ruin the breed. AKC registers the breed. I am also amazed at how extremists from all groups (working vs. conformation, AKC vs. USBCHA), don't realize that they are also hurting the breed.

Ok...off my soap box and back to lurkdom!!

And to keep it horse related, I think it would be great if a network, like USA, stepped up and broadcast live finals of a big show on an annual basis. I for one would love to see it! The reason Westminster is so much fun to watch is that it is the only time you see all of the dogs in every group, live, at a show.

[budman]

Sandy M., what a cute story. Blondie has always wanted a dog, herself, but she can't find a dog that wants her http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Of course, that's because she runs after them to try and get them to play http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be." Andy Adams
Gold Chips (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394805)
Blondie (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394809)

[Sandy M]

Yes, my horse's interaction with the Viszla made me fall for the breed.. so beautiful, but we have a Min Pin and our lease limits us to one dog and/or 1 cat, so no Vizsla for the immediate future. Plus, I have the problem of being a commuter, and leaving a 7 lb. Min Pin alone all day in a duplex versus leaving a .. what, 45 lb. Vizsla ?... wouldn't be fair to the big dog. Still, we do have a backyard so perhaps someday, with a doggie door.....

[RugBug]

My favorite dog (Greater Swiss Mountain Dog) barely makes the rankings, but, man, are they gorgeous. One of these days I will have one. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I didn't jump. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were."

[Tomboy]

Thank you Kryswyn for explaining better than i could. JRTCA member too? Your history was exactly the speal i had for the Youth events at trails. Now that ive aged out of the division, ive forgotten most of the nity gritty details.

I know OLN has some jumper stuff, but its normally only Grand Prix. For Upperville they did show a clip of the hunters (what did you blink, sorry you missed it. ) I wish we could get them, or USA or some one to contract to air a show once a year... *sigh* only in my dreams..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Teen Clique, Selle Francais Clique, and of course
Riders of Rohan

“Life is not about how fast you run, or how high you climb, but how well you bounce.” –unknown

[BostonBanker]

I'm not sure any horse show on TV could be as popular as Westminster. With a dog show, you have a bit of a "built in" audience: dog owners (who want to cheer on their breed) and wanna-be dog owners who are looking for a breed (heaven help them if they don't look beyond the little descriptions). Not that I wouldn't love to see more shows on TV...I just think they'd get a smaller audience.

The newf was beautiful, but a very sketchy temperment judging by that show. The announcers described him as a skittish dog (not what a newf should be), and as someone pointed out, it looked like he was going after another handler during the handshakes. And now I'm sure he'll go on to father countless pups....

[Summershyne7]

I personally agree with the Great Dane comment. The only dogs I have ever had have been Danes. They have been loyal, protective, and very gentle giants. Very sensitive, too. While he would be rough with me, Kaiser would be very gentle with my grandfather. I also agree with the peke comment. :-Þ My affinity for Danes has led me to a dislike most small dogs (of course not all of them are this way), not for their size, but for what I personally perceive as their inability to not sound and act like a wind up dog.

[DMK]

I love danes, but their short life span could just break your heart (over and over and over).

Naturally I was rooting for the corgi big time. But I have to agree that the newfie was showing it all that day (but I thought the corgi gave him a run for his money on presence). And of course when you heard that the BIS judge had sent him to the group last year, well, you knew he already really liked the dog. I sort of figured it was his to lose.

And to continue the horse related angle, the dog I most want is a Borzoi. Unfortunately I read up on sight hound traits and decided that was an inappropriate behavior for a dog I wanted to take to horse shows, to the barn, on trail rides and various other places all without fences but with much in the way of "visual temptations". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So I reverted back to my old standby, the herding group (used to have an aussie and a border) and went with a corgi (much more closely working bred than show bred). Meanwhile whenever my friend with jacks wails about how obedient and attuned to me my corgi is, I point at her jacks and say "terrier - only pays attention to small edible animals", then point to Casey and say "herding dog - bred to watch and respond to people - hundred of years of selction rarley goes wrong." It pisses her off until I wail about laying down rat poison at the barn. Then the argument gets reversed. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But it's great to have a corgi. What other dog would do this when you comandeer your nephew's X-mas present on Christmas morning? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[Just My Style]

As I said before, I have a Dane. I love, love, love him! People always tell me how much they like the Danes, but then they say they would never own one because of their "short" life spans. I always tell them that you can never predict a lifespan. When I picked out Norman, I had the pleasure of meeting his 12 year old grandmother. Really old for a Dane, but boy was she in good spirits and getting around pretty well for an old girl. Not only that but his breeder had 4 Danes that were over 10. I also have a JRT that has a terminal illness. My vet told me that he would only be around for a few more months. That was in the summer. Well, we made Christmas and his birthday is tomorrow. He will be 7. It's hard to keep a Jack down, so I won't give up until he does. So, I think, you get what you like and be happy for anytime that you have them in your life. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

[Kryswyn]

Oh mein Gott in Himmel! It is the Yellow Scooter of Death! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Casey! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Run for your life!!

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

[Kryswyn]

Hey Tomboy, yes I'm JRTCA. My youth handler just aged out last year http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I hope to have some young stock for her to show in the regular classes this year while she does agility with her own dogs.

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

[Merry]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
What other dog would do this when you comandeer your nephew's X-mas present on Christmas morning? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Note to self: Beware of red-headed women riding scooters with dogs in shotgun position...

[Peggy]

Shall be on the lookout for dog scooters.

I have a friend who went to dog camp (yes, dog camp) with her JRT type dog. They had various activities for the dogs, including a herd of sheep one day. My friend said that it was amazing to watch the herding dogs, some of which had probably never herded much of anything, let alone seen a sheep, figure out what to do. And where was Topper (the dog, not Beezer's horse) while all this was going on -- wandering around the edge of the field looking for gophers.

If only my trainer's terrier could catch a member or two of the rapidly expanding family of mice that has taken up residence behind my trunk and between the trunk and the cover. I'm afraid that an EIR will be necessary if I ever have to move the trunk--destruction of mouse habitat.

[Kryswyn]

Usually, dogs "scooting" is not a good thing and frequently means a trip to the vet for deworming or expression of anal glands...

&lt;Question: would an expression of anal glands be a PUCKER? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

[Beezer]

LOL, Peggy! But I have to say, Topper, Beezer's horse, would also be found wandering around the edge of the field, but in his case, he'd be looking for that other G -- grass. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

My two JRTs say they can come help train your trainer's terrier ... one, however, is very much more of a doer while the other is, well, how shall we say it? A pretender. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

***** Currently assigned to the mouth-gaping, lip-flapping, head-twisting, wood-chewing, boot-shredding phase of baby greenie ownership! *****

[dogchushu]

DMK, I love herding breeds too. (Though what does it say about me that I love how attentive they are to me?)

However, my two shelties (both bred for the agility ring and not the conformation ring) have a bit too much of the herding instinct. Nope, they've never even seen a sheep--but when my nieces and nephews come to visit you find the dogs frantically running about trying to get the scurrying children back into an orderly herd!



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

[Duffy]

My "imported irish jack russell" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif , is, I believe a cross between a JR and a Corgi, with perhaps a little hound thrown in for good measure. He corrects the horses, (and kids/cats), when they are misbehaving, but has never hurt any of the above. He does, however, hunt down rats with a vengeance. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif He also does not stray from the barn when I'm there. He settles down right outside the ring and watches me ride, not matter other temptations. He and Gramento loff each other. Mini doesn't like ANY dog. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

We have plenty of bunnies and squirrels in my backyard. I have been able to stop him, while in pursuit, with just a word. Nope, he's not all JR! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"B***h in training"

[Lord Helpus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ShowJumps:
The show entries filled two hours after they opened! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

POSSIBLY because the top X number of dogs in each breed are INVITED. So that leaves a few slots in each breed for actual ENTRIES.

LaurieB or someone else who has shown there can answer this question better than I can. And just think how quickly events fill up. If you do not get your entry blank returne 100% filled out correctly and with a check for payment in full, you will not get into the more popular events.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

[Lord Helpus]

One of the things I find frustrating about Westminster is that you see a dog and fall in love with the breed, but... then try to find one!

Every year, I fall in love with the Dandie Dinmont and the Italian Spumoni. I have even contacted the AKC for a list of breeders. But, IF you can get one, you are looking at a long wait -- we're talking years, here. (And I need instant gratification...)

I guess that is why the puppy mills survive. A dog goes Best In Show and the responsible breeders cannot supply all of the people who want one. So the puppy mills step in to fill the demand. I used to be a cocker person, and I know that being America's number one dog for so long really ruined the breed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kryswyn:
Oh mein Gott in Himmel! It is the Yellow Scooter of Death! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, that is not the real and mostly infamous YSOD! (yelow scooter of death). The real YSOD! is much bigger and actually Casey has room to sit quite comfortably (and my feet don't have to hang down). It's more like the YSOMI (yellow scooterlette of mild injury) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

When we were ahem "testing" my nephew's Christmas present (adult code for "stealing it and playing with it before letting him ride it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), Casey insisted on getting on. But I think once he got on and saw it wasn't the real thing he was disenchanted. Or at least tha tis what I gathered because after insisting on getting on for this ride, he skulked off and hid behind my sister. Apparently he has standards... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[Sandy M]

Lord Helpus -Have you checked a copy of Dog Fancy magazine? My roomie used to subscribe to it, and it seemed that there were breeder ads for just about EVERYTHING in that magazine. I wonder if there's a "Dandie Dinmont" or "Spinoni Italiano" rescue organization.

[pap2labc]

Even before Westminster started inviting the top dogs in each breed the show would fill in a short time...an hour to two hours, sometimes shorter. Because of the venue, they have to limit the number of entries and it is a very prestigious show to attend. There are larger shows, but only one at "The Garden." Different handlers had different ways of getting their entries in, ranging from courier to Fed Ex. Sometimes the big dogs didn't get in before it closed. In order to ensure that the biggest dogs were guaranteed to get in, they started inviting the top dogs in every breed and filling up the rest of the available slots first come first served.

Westminster used to be open to non-champions as well and many people entered hoping to earn the last points needed so they could say their dog finished at Westminster. Again, lots of bragging rights. It has its faults...crowded, a benched show, no real exercise room for the dogs, but there will always be people who glady put up with the inconvenience to go.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pap2labc:
It has its faults...crowded, a benched show, no real exercise room for the dogs, but there will always be people who glady put up with the inconvenience to go.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like Indoors. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[lauriep]

Just as it was when the National was held there. Small stalls, narrow, tiny aisles, bathing at the top of the ramp, a minuscule schooling area with pillars...

I was fortunate enough to attend the National in its heyday, and Westminster. The crowds were definitely bigger at Westminster, even though by horse show standards, the National was excellent.

Laurie

[Emryss]

I had to chip in!

2Dogs - Sussex Spaniels are a repeatable experience for me. All the spaniel sweetness, no cocker weirdness.

AND - there is money to be made in showing dogs...as the groomer. Best money I ever made was grooming a couple of Kerry Blue Terriers for a show. The bitch won BOB, so my work must not have stunk too badly!


From such a face and form as mine the noblist sentiments sound like the black utterences of a depraved imagination. It is human nature -- I am resigned.
- Dick Deadeye, HMS Pinafore