After PPE, how to say I'll pass??

[Dapple Dawn Farm]

So, I just had a PPE on a horse and it wasn't what I wanted to hear for my hunter prospect. How much information do I tell the owner, do I go into all the details that the vet told me or do I just say he isn't suitable for my needs? It's too bad since he was a cutie and I did really like him. I don't want to be negative when I talk to the owner but I'm sure she'll ask why.

[meupatdoes]

So, I just had a PPE on a horse and it wasn't what I wanted to hear for my hunter prospect. How much information do I tell the owner, do I go into all the details that the vet told me or do I just say he isn't suitable for my needs? It's too bad since he was a cutie and I did really like him. I don't want to be negative when I talk to the owner but I'm sure she'll ask why.

You should absolutely release ALL of the vet records to the owner of the horse. You don't have to say what you think about them, just

"After the vetting, I have decided this horse is not for me. I have made sure to release all the vet records so that you have access to them as well. Thank you for your time."

[RioTex]

Well, I am sure she would like to know the reason, but that's up to you. I had one not "pass" the PPE because it was three once. Well, ummm, yeah, I told you it was three. Would have made for sense for them to just say she isn't the one. :)

[Summit Springs Farm]

The information from your vet is yours, not the owners, BUT if you want to give them this info, it would be generous,so they at least know what issues he horse has on a PPE.

[joiedevie99]

Yes, its very nice to release the vet records to the owner of the horse- but there is no obligation- you paid for the exam and it is yours and your vets. You simply call and let them know as a result of the exam you have decided that it isn't the horse for you. See if they ask any follow-up questions. If you want to share more, you can- otherwise just politely get off the phone.

[Anyplace Farm]

Agreed on the last two posts. You paid for the information, you are not required to release that information.

[meupatdoes]

I don't understand what benefit it is to the buyer to refuse to divulge the vet records to the owner of the horse. Yes they paid for it and it is their "right" but why on earth be so assinine?

You don't have to get into your PERSONAL interpretation of the records (i.e., exactly what it was about them that broke the deal for you), but it is mere courtesy to release them to the owner so that they know what is going on with their own horse and can represent him better to other buyers. IMO it is no skin off the buyer's back AT ALL; but maybe I haven't thought of something and someone can explain a situation where it would benefit a buyer who is passing on a horse anyway to keep a stranglehold on the records, or it would harm a buyer who is passing on the horse anyway to release them?
???

And for what? So that the next buyer can do the same exact vetting and find your exact results which the seller didn't know about because you didn't release them? Or the seller has to go vet the horse a second time on their bill so that they can try to figure out what the problem was before continuing to market the horse?

For this reason from a seller's perspective, I insist that buyers agree from the outset to release the records to me. That records release gets signed before the horse trots one step down the driveway.

[jetsmom]

You aren't obligated to release the results, but it is nice to do so. And something to consider is "would you buy him at SOME price based on the PPE?" If so I'd say, "I'm sorry, but based on the PPE, I'm afraid I have to pass. It's too bad, because I really like him, but based on the price I just can't justify it. If in the future you decide to reduce his price down to around "X" please give me a call. Here are copies of the PPE so you have the information I based my decision on." If you wouldn't want him at any price, then I'd just say the first part, and give them the copies of the PPE and thank them for their time.

[Serah]

I don't understand what benefit it is to the buyer to refuse to divulge the vet records to the owner of the horse. Yes they paid for it and it is their "right" but why on earth be so assinine?

You don't have to get into your PERSONAL interpretation of the records (i.e., exactly what it was about them that broke the deal for you), but it is mere courtesy to release them to the owner so that they know what is going on with their own horse and can represent him better to other buyers. IMO it is no skin off the buyer's back AT ALL; but maybe I haven't thought of something and someone can explain a situation where it would benefit a buyer who is passing on a horse anyway to keep a stranglehold on the records, or it would harm a buyer who is passing on the horse anyway to release them?
???

And for what? So that the next buyer can do the same exact vetting and find your exact results which the seller didn't know about because you didn't release them? Or the seller has to go vet the horse a second time on their bill so that they can try to figure out what the problem was before continuing to market the horse?

For this reason from a seller's perspective, I insist that buyers agree from the outset to release the records to me. That records release gets signed before the horse trots one step down the driveway.



Agreed... Why would anyone choose to keep the results to themself? Ridiculous... Just because its YOURS and YOU paid for it?!

Please...

[hb]

Well, one time I passed on a horse due to PPE findings, told the owner what the vet found, and she argued with me that it wasn't that bad of an issue and/or the vet was wrong. After several calls I firmly told her that both MY vet and MY trainer, who I pay for advice, were advising me to pass and that was that, but it was really a pain of a situation.

So if I was in this situation again I would just give the minimum info, "based on the PPE I've decided not to buy the horse". If the seller asked for access to the records I'd give it, but I'm not offering up information again.

[Fairview Horse Center]

A friend of mine was selling her horse. The buyers did a PPE, and the vet said the xrays showed he had ringbone (5 year old). The buyers declined, but did release the vetting results. My friend then took THEIR xrays to her vet to review. He said clean.

A few months later, she ran into the buyers who still had not found a horse. She mentioned that HER vet said there was no ringbone, diagnosing from THEIR vet's xrays. They agreed to forward the xrays to Morven Park to have them evaluated. Morven Park said there was absolutely no sign of ringbone or any other problem.

SO, the original purchaser was able to buy the horse with very little extra cost because they were decent people and released the vet finding.

If they won't help you, they may help the next buyer. Someone else's vet report on the horse YOU are interested in may save YOU a lot of money.

What goes around comes around.

[shawneeAcres]

I believe the PPE results should be public, in so far as letting them know what was found. Now as to whether you should release records, xrays etc, that is up to you but I would be quite irate if someone simply said I won't take him based on PPE. The reason being that, the horse is for sale, if there is some underlying condition, it would be nice to know so that another vet can followup and verify it or treat it. Also, I have seen one vet say something was HORRIBLE on a PPE and another vet find absolutely nothing! I see no reason to not disclose the PPE results verbally, not anymore than I see no reason for a seller to not disclose issues.

[Gideon]

I had a couple of horse fail a PPE and always gave all info to the seller, including x rays.
One horse I vetted failed and the owner had no idea the horse had a problem. Her vet confirmed it and the horse was sold as a pleasure horse, instead of a jumper.:D

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I would release the PPE records too.

I like the idea (as a seller) of requiring that and think I will add it to my contract--thanks!

[babecakes]

Well now, I hate to be the devil's advocate but some sellers may not want to know what is wrong with their horse. You know - seller's disclosure kind of thing. ;)

[Hunter Mom]

What difference does passing along the info make if you've decided to pass? If YOU were the seller, would you want them? It goes back to the Golden Rule - treating others as you'd like to be treated. It isn't like you gain anything by NOT giving them the results, and you could save someone else the heartbreak you're trying to avoid.

FWIW, if you get a PPE in this area, the owner has to sign off on it. I imagine that they'd thusly be able to access the results as well.

[Isabeau Z Solace]

Well.... after having had several friends and clients pass on horse after horse because of 'failed' PPE, I have to say it is difficult to keep paying for comprehensive veterinary evaluations on other people's horses.

Yes, a vet exam can be incomplete or wrong. Myself I have had the supposed 'same view' radiograph come up very differently when shot by 2 different vets one week apart. One vet did not get the angle quite 'oblique' enough, and the image did not show quite a significant (or two) spur.

So any PPE is subject to either inexperience on the vet's part of just plain human error.

BUT I do feel that if a seller wants the results of a PPE on a 'failed' horse, then they should pay the bill. Buyers shell out $1000 - $2000/horse/comprehensive exam in my neck of the woods. And repeatedly gifting medical diagnostics on other people's horses (those other people, by the way, often do NOT have a recent similarly comprehensive exam report to offer to buyers. They prefer to let potential buyers pay for that privilege.) is, umm, annoying, at best. And it can make the potential buyer feel victimized, at worst.

Sellers are perfectly free to complete a comprehensive, radiographs included, exam on their own horse at anytime.


Far enough up the food chain, it is more common for horses to come with recent vet exam information. Hell, plenty of owners of 6 figure horses do radiographs on their horses every 6 months just to 'keep an eye' on things.

Lower on the food chain, owners can't afford this. So they let buyers take their own chances. Fair enough. If I've got a horse I've been riding for several years that's never been lame, sneezed, coughed, or flicked an ear, then I'm not going to pay for an exam to offer buyers. And I probably won't care what shows up on the exam, because whatever it is the horse has been doing the job without problem.

But I think that it is fair that sellers also 'take their own' chances and realize that what they do not pay for does not belong to them. Often prospective buyers will share information. But I don't agree that sellers are entitled to property paid for by potential buyers. If they are entitled to the results, then in my opinion they are entitled to the bill as well..

I have dealt with all versions of the buyer/seller/agent scenario. And one of the fastest ways to get in BIGGEST trouble is to have presumptions/beliefs about what the other party 'owes' you, 'ought' to do, what would the the 'right' thing, 'honorable' thing, etc.

Have agreements/contracts on all facets of the interaction, otherwise, you never know what the other party's reaction to a 'bump in the road' is going to be.

OP - You can make your best judgement about the 'mindset' of the seller, and tell them as much as you want to. BUT Keep in mind that the seller is going to be receiving unwelcome news, and you don't know what their reaction will be. The safest route is to say the least.

"Thanks for your time, but I think I'll keep looking."

It is sad but true that emotions and egos run hot and rough in the horse business, so good luck.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Yes, a vet exam can be incomplete or wrong. Myself I have had the supposed 'same view' radiograph come up very differently when shot by 2 different vets one week apart.

So any PPE is subject to either inexperience on the vet's part of just plain human error.

So you say that a vet exam can be wrong - inexperience, or human error.

and THEN you say this??


BUT I do feel that if a seller wants the results of a PPE on a 'failed' horse, then they should pay the bill.

So why would a seller pay a bill to a vet that is not of their choosing, and they may not have any confidence in that vet?

If a buyer releases a report, then the seller can at least have their vet check the questionable area out to see if they agree or not. Otherwise they would have to go on a whole body fishing expedition, and may never find what the concern was, especially if just plain "wrong".

[quicksilverponies]

Well, I don't allow a PPE on a pony UNLESS a signed contract states that I have full disclosure of all findings. It is the buyers choice to exray or not or do other expensive tests... many of which most breeders might not do on a regular basis on all their stock. If a vet finds a problem with one of my ponies, you can be assured that I am the FIRST person that wants to know about the problem, address the treatment if possible and find a solution. How is it beneficial to the potential buyer and certainly the horse or pony in question to keep the findings a secret, regardless of who paid for the exam?

[meupatdoes]

But I don't agree that sellers are entitled to property paid for by potential buyers. If they are entitled to the results, then in my opinion they are entitled to the bill as well..

OK.

Well then they can also pay me for grooming and tack up, a day lease fee on my horse (property paid for BY ME) they have used on their trial day, AND throw in my hourly rate for the lesson I inevitably end up giving them when they show up without their trainer.

[shawneeAcres]

OK.

Well then they can also pay me for grooming and tack up, a day lease fee on my horse (property paid for BY ME) they have used on their trial day, AND throw in my hourly rate for the lesson I inevitably end up giving them when they show up without their trainer.

:yes:

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

OK.

Well then they can also pay me for grooming and tack up, a day lease fee on my horse (property paid for BY ME) they have used on their trial day, AND throw in my hourly rate for the lesson I inevitably end up giving them when they show up without their trainer.

EXACTLY. [I really wish people would invite their trainers along]

Plus for my time at the vet clinic/holding the horse for the PPE. Missed a day of work last time.

My 16 year old OTTB "failed" his PPE (meaning he flexed positive on his hocks and needed injections again--it had been over a year) and the buyer and I negotiated a lower price (cost of injections). As someone said this can always be an option. Of course, I had already disclosed to the buyer that the horse would likely flex positive and had provided 12 month-old radiographs, so it wasn't a shocking discovery or anything...

I have always released my radiographs and complete vet records to buyers beforehand, so while I'm not necessarily "entitled" to the PPE results, I do think it is nice.

That said...I would not go too much into detail OP. Just keep it short and sweet. I've seen people argue over PPE's too.

[toomanyponies]

I will disclose the reason the horse did not 'pass' the PPE to the seller. BUT I trust my vet. If the clinical is good and there is a bad xray, maybe we will retake the x-ray or ask if there is an older xray to compare it to. I have no problem providing the offending x ray for another opinion. If there isnt maybe I would ask to do a lease to buy to make sure the horse stays clinically sound. If it is a young horse with bad xrays I walk away.

However, I see no reason why my customer would be obligated to provide a full set of xrays and vet report at $1500 - 2000 to the seller of the horse for the seller to keep. WTF???

Now if the seller offered to split the cost, maybe. Theres benefit to the seller because they now have a complete set of xrays at %50 of the cost. Benefit the buyer because they it has no cost them 50% less to avoid a potential future problem.

And I'm sorry, meupatdoes, but tacking, untacking, showing the horse is all part of marketing your horse and your profit margin

[SquishTheBunny]

For those who do NOT want to release PPE results to the owner, at least be courteous and say "there was some issues with the front end that caused some concern" or "the horse's hind left was a little off during the jog".

If I had a horse returned to me for not passing a PPE, I would at least want to know WHAT area to examine. For example, I once was selling a lovely first jumper type, was 100% sound - but during his PPE, the radiographs revealed a small ringbone lesion. They were extremely courteous and gave me the results, but if they just said "he was not right for us" then I would have to radiograph every part of his body to narrow it down, as he flexed fine. The buyers were very disappointed, but helped me out by giving me full results - and therefore finding a more suitable home for him as a police horse!

Sellers arent in it for getting "free vet exams" on the horse. Especially for the higher end horses. If you drop $1000 for a PPE, and the horse passes - its yours. If there is something in there that you dont like, it doesnt mean the buyer has misrepresented the horse. You LIKED it, which is why you are vetting it. If it doesnt pass, too bad - but dont be selfish. By witholding ALL information its pretty much saying "haha, I know something about your horse that you dont". At least give the seller a general idea.

[redhorse5]

I trust my vet to tell me what is wrong with my horse, but I really don't trust a buyer's vet to diagnose a problem when they don't routinely take care of that horse. There are too many questionable PPE's anyway. Many times the buyer just wants to use it to try to beat the seller down on the price. It's not unlike the "home inspector" issue with real estate.

I had a horse that failed a PPE. The buyer said that his vet told him the horse would never stay sound. The buyer offered 20% less. I said to the buyer, "Why on earth would you want a horse that will never stay sound for any price?" I kept the horse- that was 10 years ago and the horse has never had a lame day except for an abscess last summer.

BTW, I was offered almost double for him as a 15 year old than I was going to sell him for when he was 7. Now that he's 17, I'm glad I kept him.

[mvp]

The part of this trainwreck that bugs me is the contradiction between the vague scripts people write, "Thanks but I'm afraid this isn't the horse for me" and the stuff about who owes what or not and why.

Really? Afraid the horse isn't for you? You aren't afraid. You made a decision supported by the DVM of your choosing about which you feel confident. And the horse "isn't for you" for particular reason. Just tell the truth to the seller. What is the problem?

I think when buyers want to be dog-in-the-manger about information they hold that would be of use to the owner, or the owner makes the results of the PPE exam theirs for free, people understandably get riled. IMO, this is not the way to do business. Get riled later if you like, but don't walk in that way.

The things of value are the radiographs (kind of, keep reading). If a seller asked me to agree up front to release all the ones I took, I'd like access to all of the vet records in the past. Quid pro quo.

I was taught that you do tell the seller about the problems your vet found. Then you offer to sell them the rads you took at your cost. Sometimes owners don't want them. It does create either a known condition and/or another set of pictures to confuse people.

My vets will look at offered radiographs, but advise me to have them retake views of anything that raises a question. They want to be the dude who arranged the plate and the machine so they can be completely sure of the angle. You can see how a new set of rads can create problems for a seller.

[TSWJB]

If they won't help you, they may help the next buyer. Someone else's vet report on the horse YOU are interested in may save YOU a lot of money.

What goes around comes around.
yeah i was thinking the same thing! that it would save someone else vetting the horse to only come to the same conclusion. it does not hurt the prospective buyer to pass on the vet records so why not???? then the sellar can represent the horse better to the next person who looks at the horse. i feel that the sellar allowed you to ride their horse and you took up their time and now you are not buying, its the only decent thing to do, pass on the vet records!
i had a friend who was selling their horse and something came up in the vetting that was not good. the horse had been very sound. well the buyer passed on the horse and would not let her know what the problem was. then she decided she would only pass on the records if my friend paid more than half the vet bill. and the vetting had been expensive. my friend did buy the records, but i thought it was really mean and selfish of the buyer to hold her hostage. pay up or dont find out what is wrong with your horse.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Here's the thing (and then I'm done--promise). I guess it really comes down to your agreement beforehand. I have done a contract where I pull the horse from the market and hold it for the out-of-state buyer based on their 10% downpayment and agreement to buy subject to a PPE. They have full access to records and x-rays to share with their vet before we even get to that point. Then (of course) I haul the horse to their vet of choice.

They have already agreed to buy the horse. Why would I refund the 10% unless they told me what was wrong? They've agreed to buy the horse otherwise. Saying he "didn't pass ppe" wouldn't be good enough anyway...but this thread has been good in prompting me to review my contracts and make sure it's all clear!

Of course none of that could apply in the OP's case...

[meupatdoes]

However, I see no reason why my customer would be obligated to provide a full set of xrays and vet report at $1500 - 2000 to the seller of the horse for the seller to keep. WTF???

Now if the seller offered to split the cost, maybe. Theres benefit to the seller because they now have a complete set of xrays at %50 of the cost. Benefit the buyer because they it has no cost them 50% less to avoid a potential future problem.

And I'm sorry, meupatdoes, but tacking, untacking, showing the horse is all part of marketing your horse and your profit margin

1. Your customer is under no obligation to order a full set of xrays and a vet report in the first place. To do so, with the full gamut of x-rays and ultrasounding and drugtesting etc, is THEIR choice. No one is forcing them.

To run up some huge gigantic bill vetting a $5,000 horse like it is going to the Olympics and then turn around and expect the seller to pay for it (when they haven't even chosen the vet) is a little ridiculous.

2. I could also respond that doing the prepurchase exam is all part of the buying process.

Yes, I can see the potential logic in asking for a 50-50 split, but, again, the seller did not decide how much got spent, on what, or to whom. The buyer wants to make ALL those decisions and then expect the seller to fork over all or half?

I just think it is an assy, petty thing to withhold medical records, basically for no reason other than spite. Ultimately, the HORSE is the one who would benefit most from their release.

However, like I said, it is perfectly easy to protect oneself from this as a seller by simply requiring that the records be released before the vetting occurs.

[BeeHoney]

Yes, the findings belong to the person who hired the vet to do the vetting.

However, if you gave a deposit on the horse and signed a contract to purchase the horse pending a veterinary exam, and you want that deposit back, then I think you are required to substantiate the problematic veterinary findings to the seller in order to get your deposit back and void the sales contract.

Thankfully I have not experienced this myself, but I have heard of instances where buyers fabricated negative findings on prepurchase exams to either 1) negotiate a lower price or 2) get out of buying the horse due to changing their mind for another reason.

Lesson to sellers: have a clause in your sales contract that specifies that the buyer must release the results of the pre-purchase exam if they decide not to purchase the horse based on those findings.

As an aside, even if you have no obligation to do so, I think that it is best to be straightforward. "The vet found X and as much as I love your horse I'm not comfortable with it." Why wouldn't you?

[IrishWillow]

I have only had one horse "fail" - and I did release the vet info to the owner. Honestly, I think its better for the horse. He may have something going on the owner isnt even aware of, so it could be doing the horse a huge favor.

[Peggy]

Back to the original question.

I would tell the seller that the horse did not vet to my satisfaction and then ask if they want the results. If they wanted them, I would provide them. It's not like you're going to get the money back and you may as well pay it forward. I guess it's pretty routine to get the radiographs on a CD or DVD these days??? My recent experiences have been with my own horse and I haven't needed to move radiographs from vet to vet.

I'm old enough to remember when x-rays were films, not on a disk, and as such were likely to be held by the vet who took them. The physical x-rays were the vet's property. If you wanted another vet to see them, you often had to have them sent from that vet to another vet. Often in a strangely-sized envelope that seemed to take forever to make its way thru the US postal system. Some vets literally would not release them directly to a client. Of course, I'm also old enough to have donned the lead apron and held plates when I was 12 years old.

[Xanthoria]

I have freely given the PPE results of failed horse to the seller before now. Because the seller was nice and honest.

If she had demanded via contract that I give my results to her, I'd have had second thoughts about doing the PPE in the first place.

The seller stands to make money. Giving up some time in order to show a horse is not a freebie - it's part of the cost of doing business.

And part of the cost of buying is to be paying for vet exams on a horse that the seller knows more about than you do. This does not entitle the seller to access to the xrays etc. If sellers want that info they can pay for it anytime they like.

Back to the OP. Just tell the seller your vet found xyz on the PPE and that won't work for your intended use of said horse - it's a fact. Just be straightforward and keep it brief. Good luck.

[TheOrangeOne]

1. Your customer is under no obligation to order a full set of xrays and a vet report in the first place. To do so, with the full gamut of x-rays and ultrasounding and drugtesting etc, is THEIR choice. No one is forcing them.

To run up some huge gigantic bill vetting a $5,000 horse like it is going to the Olympics and then turn around and expect the seller to pay for it (when they haven't even chosen the vet) is a little ridiculous.

2. I could also respond that doing the prepurchase exam is all part of the buying process.

Yes, I can see the potential logic in asking for a 50-50 split, but, again, the seller did not decide how much got spent, on what, or to whom. The buyer wants to make ALL those decisions and then expect the seller to fork over all or half?


No one says the seller HAS to know what happened. Polite, sure, but just like it was not their decision to spend the money for 1200 dollars worth of xrays so that they could know what their horse's joints looked like before they wanted to sell it, and thus chose to not know, it's also their decision to not buy 1200 dollars worth of xrays when the horse is for sale. Of course it is a polite thing to do, but it's essentially a 1500 dollar gift to a person from whom you are not buying a horse. If it were really important to me to have films of every joint that would be viewed for a vetting, I would buy them myself. It is not, therefore I am not spending the money on it. I think basic courtesy would disclose the reason why the horse did not pass the vetting, "he has ringbone in his LF" or "his hocks show more wear on the cartilage than I am comfortable with", but I do not feel obligated to fork over all of the diagnostics. My horse failed a vetting before I bought him, and I did not expect the vetting to be an open book, passed from the potential buyer to the seller and then to me. Vetting a horse is a choice made by the buyer, like you said. 90% of people I would happily give the entire vetting report and digital copies of the pertinent diagnostics to, but if someone were to start getting huffy and entitled to all this money I spent on their horse who is not fit for purchase, you bet I am not going to give them that 1200-1500 dollar present.

[mvp]

Here's the thing (and then I'm done--promise). I guess it really comes down to your agreement beforehand. I have done a contract where I pull the horse from the market and hold it for the out-of-state buyer based on their 10% downpayment and agreement to buy subject to a PPE. They have full access to records and x-rays to share with their vet before we even get to that point. Then (of course) I haul the horse to their vet of choice.

They have already agreed to buy the horse. Why would I refund the 10% unless they told me what was wrong? They've agreed to buy the horse otherwise. Saying he "didn't pass ppe" wouldn't be good enough anyway...but this thread has been good in prompting me to review my contracts and make sure it's all clear!

Of course none of that could apply in the OP's case...

Read this with a "to each his own" idea in mind.

I wouldn't pay a seller 10% for the privilege of doing a PPE. To me that seems like a seller discouraging me from doing du diligence.... in a situation where at best neither of us has X-ray vision and at worst, the seller has something to hide and would like to discourage me from doing my own research.

Does the horse come off the market for those few days? Not necessarily. I think you can tell other potential buyers that the horse is scheduled for a PPE, but they can certainly get in line if buyer #1 doesn't take the horse in the end. And won't buyer #2 want a PPE also? I do think buyers have an obligation to schedule the PPE ASAP, and most do.

I read the second paragraph as charging the would-be buyer 10% of the horse's value if he doesn't want to turn over the results of the PPE he paid for. Since those results traditionally belong to the person who paid the vet, I'd feel a little coerced by a contract like this-- as if the seller would settle for a very cheap vet exam and make sure they got *something* out of the deal.

To the buyer, it looks like what the seller gets out of the deal is the profit on the horse. And after the horse didn't pass the PPE, I can't see why a buyer would be in a huge hurry to make sure the seller felt compensated.

You can, of course, hold the buyer to any terms he or she dumb enough to consent to in writing. But I don't think the deposit was ever intended to buy the seller the right to PPE info. It has never occurred to me to ask about the meaning of the deposit or who is entitled to the PPE I pay for. I wouldn't look at a horse that came with a really unbalanced contract.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I wouldn't pay a seller 10% for the privilege of doing a PPE.

Does the horse come off the market for those few days? Not necessarily. I think you can tell other potential buyers that the horse is scheduled for a PPE, but they can certainly get in line if buyer #1 doesn't take the horse in the end. And won't buyer #2 want a PPE also? I do think buyers have an obligation to schedule the PPE ASAP, and most do.



A 10% DEPOSIT is to not sell the horse to someone else WHILE the original purchaser is arranging PPE, etc. It is totally refundable IF the horse does not receive a satisfactory PPE.

I am obligated to the 1st person that gives me a deposit, and signs a purchase agreement. I have sold several without a deposit and agreement, but I have been burnt again and again by someone backing out of a sale because they found somethng closer, etc. It becomes tiresome when people say they are arranging a PPE, and then just stretch it out (a couple of days, monday, the vet had to put it off until Fri, oops, next week) to have time to keep searching for something better, closer, cheaper.

YOU may not do that, but a seller has no way of knowing who is jerking them around. If you are buying a horse, and want to make sure it is not sold before you can arrange a PPE, put a deposit on the horse.

When I have been comfortable waiting without a deposit, and in fact have not asked for one is when I am dealing with a professional buyer & trainer, and they keep me updated CONSTANTLY (at least daily) and I can see they are expediting the sale.

[Midge]

So, I just had a PPE on a horse and it wasn't what I wanted to hear for my hunter prospect. How much information do I tell the owner, do I go into all the details that the vet told me or do I just say he isn't suitable for my needs? It's too bad since he was a cutie and I did really like him. I don't want to be negative when I talk to the owner but I'm sure she'll ask why.

Thank you for your time but we have decided to keep shopping.

[mvp]

Fairview, we're on exactly the same page. I was responding to TrotTrotPumkin whose post I read to mean that the 10% was non-refundable and/or bought the right to PPE info.

I do hope people won't find what's printed on my business card a basis for deciding whether or not I'm a flake. As a W-2 Ammy, I'm awash in a professional world where people honor agreements. Given the bad rep that "horse traders" have had forever, maybe we are at least as good at making word and deed match as is a professional horse trainer.

[RockinHorse]

Well.... after having had several friends and clients pass on horse after horse because of 'failed' PPE, I have to say it is difficult to keep paying for comprehensive veterinary evaluations on other people's horses.

Yes, a vet exam can be incomplete or wrong. Myself I have had the supposed 'same view' radiograph come up very differently when shot by 2 different vets one week apart. One vet did not get the angle quite 'oblique' enough, and the image did not show quite a significant (or two) spur.

So any PPE is subject to either inexperience on the vet's part of just plain human error.




So you say that a vet exam can be wrong - inexperience, or human error.

and THEN you say this??


BUT I do feel that if a seller wants the results of a PPE on a 'failed' horse, then they should pay the bill. Buyers shell out $1000 - $2000/horse/comprehensive exam in my neck of the woods.

So why would a seller pay a bill to a vet that is not of their choosing, and they may not have any confidence in that vet?

But then why would the seller even want the vet results?

[Perfect Pony]

I did several PPE when I was looking.

I always told the owners why I did not chose the horse, whether it was because of PPE findings or not.

I took the horse to a clinic every time, and the owner was welcome to be present. In one instance, I didn't get to xrays as the horse was slightly off on the lunge, the owner was there and saw it, then took the horse home. In another instance, the horse looked sound but had a small swelling on a knee which turned out to be a knee chip. I invited the owner in the xray room to see it, but did not release xrays. In this case I told the owner the xrays would be made available to potential buyers at a small cost, 2 other buyers paid $100 each (I took $400+ worth of xrays, including hocks) to review the xrays. The last horse was unbroke with good xrays and PPE but I decided against the horse after a trial. In this case I sent her the entire $1200 PPE packet I was provided by the clinic including the CD with xrays.

I will always honestly state my findings, and always want the owner present. I will release the xrays and records in hard form in various instances.

Just an FYI, digital radiographs on CD can and have been altered in some instances. It's always best for someone to get originals from the vet taking them...and like I said, I charged a small fee for releasing them from the clinic specifically to a buyer. This enabled the other buyer to talk to the vet about the case and get original records.

[MintHillFarm]

You should absolutely release ALL of the vet records to the owner of the horse. You don't have to say what you think about them, just

"After the vetting, I have decided this horse is not for me. I have made sure to release all the vet records so that you have access to them as well. Thank you for your time."

Yes, very well put. You have the right to pass up the horse. Don't be shy about it. I would, if I were the owner, want to know why and if possible, see the results. I think as a courtesy to the owner and if I had taken the horse on trial, it is very fair to share the results...

[RockinHorse]

I prefer, when possible to do the PPE with the seller present so this is generally less of an issue. If the seller is not present and I choose to pass on the horse based on the vetting I will give the seller some information regarding the issue.

The amount of information I give depends on the seller. If I believe they have been straight with me and what was found is not something they would/should reasonably know about I will release all info to them. On the other hand, if something is found that they most likely should know about (xrays revealing a major past injury on a horse they have had since birth, etc) then they are not getting anything from me beyond a brief description like "I am not comfortable with the left hock xray".

I have never seen a sales contract that requires me to turn over the results of the PPE. (I am not a lawyer but I wounder how enforcable many of those would be).

If I was very comfortable with the seller I would probably sign, if not I might walk unless I got some concessions. I actually like the idea from the poster that said they would, in turn, want access to all the horse's vet records from the seller.

[starfish]

This type of topic has so much baggage. It would be lovely if all buyers and sellers were reasonable individuals who acted rationally. Unfortunately, that is not the case and so I do understand why a potential buyer might wonder about the best/easiest way to tell a seller that they will be looking elsewhere. That said, I will always be upfront and candid about my reasons and the issues found on the PPE. I know that I run the risk of being harassed by an irrational and disappointed seller, but I can handle it. I'd rather make life a little easier for the seller, the horse and future buyers. It doesn't hurt that I think the sellers who would make such a discussion really uncomfortable are relatively few and far between.

I've never been asked to release the results of the PPE and I do have difficulty imagining a scenario where I wouldn't be willing. But the concept of being contractually bound to do so just doesn't sit right with me. Its odd because I understand why a seller would want access to the PPE results, but being forced to hand them over gets my back up. That said, if I had already contracted to buy the horse and put down a deposit pending a PPE, I would probably be fine with it.

All that said, I think there are certainly situations where asking the seller to contribute to the cost of the PPE might be appropriate. And I think sellers should be little more willing to work out a mutually beneficial arrangement.

[whbar158]

I think I would always release it, as many sellers would like to know what the issue is and have their own vet take a long look at it. Many will often also get new x-rays. If I were selling I would very much like to hear the results and any x-rays released to my vet to take a look at so we can do further diagnostics. I would not view the PPE results as a $1500 gift, because I would want to explore the issue further and will likely spend that much looking closer and treating whatever the problem is.

To the OP I would just say my vet found some things that concern me for what I want to use it for.


Personally I would release the records if the owner asked, if they didn't ask I would just hold on to them.

[ToN Farm]

Any horse i would sell (and I'm not into selling) would have a set of recent radiographs and I would know what was going to be found on a PPE. I would show the prospective buyer the radiographs and release my vet records before they had to lay out a dime for the PPE.

As a buyer, I would expect the seller of an older horse to also have historical health data that I could see before going through a PPE. Even with a young horse, I would think they should have baseline radiographs.

As to the original question, I wouldn't beat around the bush at all. I'd say that I was concerned about the findings on the hocks/ankles, or what have you, and I would release the PPE radiographs to the seller for free.

[Las Olas]

So, I'm a bit curious as to why most of the folks here think it is the buyer's responsibilty to tell the seller what is wrong with their horse? Shouldn't the seller be the one disclosing that information?

I buy and sell. When I list a horse for sale, I have a full survey taken. So, I know ahead of time what (if anything) is 'wrong' with the horse and whether I would need to discount for it. If the horse has a chip or whatever, I disclose up front. If the buyer's PPE turns up something I wasn't aware of, then I ask to see that particular view, I show them my survey and we try to come to a resolution if the issue is something they can live with and I think the renegotiated price is fair. The point, to me anyway, is to sell the horse. As a buyer, I don't offer my radiographs to the seller unless there is a difference of interpretation of a view/issue. Because, IMO, a responsible seller should already know the product they are selling and the condition it is in.

[Flash44]

After PPE, how to say I'll pass??


Graciously give the seller the findings in a nutshell and thank them. Most owners don't xray their horses out the wazoo like buyers do, and a positive finding may be a bit of a surprise to them. If you are already under contract, you will have to consult your contract to see if you need to actually give a report to the seller.

[toomanyponies]

Yes, the findings belong to the person who hired the vet to do the vetting.

However, if you gave a deposit on the horse and signed a contract to purchase the horse pending a veterinary exam, and you want that deposit back, then I think you are required to substantiate the problematic veterinary findings to the seller in order to get your deposit back and void the sales contract.

Thankfully I have not experienced this myself, but I have heard of instances where buyers fabricated negative findings on prepurchase exams to either 1) negotiate a lower price or 2) get out of buying the horse due to changing their mind for another reason.

Lesson to sellers: have a clause in your sales contract that specifies that the buyer must release the results of the pre-purchase exam if they decide not to purchase the horse based on those findings.

As an aside, even if you have no obligation to do so, I think that it is best to be straightforward. "The vet found X and as much as I love your horse I'm not comfortable with it." Why wouldn't you? Couldnt agree more. . . but being forthcoming with the reason the horse 'flunked' the vet, and providing the seller with a complete $1000 set of x rays gratis are two completely different things. this is where I am suggesting I would give the x rays to the seller for 50% of the cost

[toomanyponies]

Lets also be clear that very very few horses 'pass' the vet. Vetting is all about finding out what is there and how to manage it and if you and your client are comfortable with it.

As a seller, I always provide any maintenance history, and tell my customers to make the set of xrays that we took when we purchased the horse available for comparisons sake when we go to resell the animal.

[findeight]

So, I'm a bit curious as to why most of the folks here think it is the buyer's responsibilty to tell the seller what is wrong with their horse? Shouldn't the seller be the one disclosing that information?


Depends on if you are dealing with an ethical and experienced seller or...well...somebody either inexperienced, unethical or both. Deals where both sides are competent and usually not buying or selling for the first time are alot easier to just assume seller knows the condition of the horse and buyer will certainly share the reason they are passing-which may be simply "not suitable for intended purpose according to buyers vet".

Sometimes it's not as easy as something showing up somewhere that can be given to the seller. Any seller needs to keep this in mind...if a buyer's vet does not think it's going to hold up in a regular program at, say, 4' for example? They can pass the horse up.

That does not excuse a buyer from fullfilling their obligation to buy the horse and simply changing their minds after seller pulled it off the market either.

I didn't mind giving seller the picture (old style x ray) on one I ended up passing on, a bone chip in the knee my vet did not like too well and I was uncomfortable with, and, boy did they argue. Then they turned around and used the x rays I paid for to show other buyers claiming they proved it was no problem :confused:. Friend who looked at the horse called me to ask why my name was on the back of the picture. They sold it to some trusting soul who never got a sound day's work out of it.

Honesty is good and usually the best way on both sides.

[Bogie]

The only time I've passed on a horse the seller was at the PPE. We both looked at the films. It was a problem that I believe the seller didn't know about.

My feeling is that when you've agreed to buy a horse pending a PPE then you owe the seller more info than "the vet found something." Vets always find something. Now, you may not owe them $1K worth of x-rays, but if there's a specific problem then yes, I think the seller deserves the details.

I have always made vet records and old PPE results available to buyers (I rarely sell horses but when I do, a good home is my primary concern and I want to make sure they are happy with the horse and the horse will meet their needs).

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Personally. If after I've passed on a PPE....I've told the seller why, let them speak with my vet, let them have all the records and the xrays. Never had any sort of issues. I'm up front with the seller as to why I'm passing. If I've vetted the horse...I like the horse and I want what is best for them as well. If we do not think they are going to hold up for the job I want them....then I hope that they will find a buyer more suited for the horse.

Basically, the PPE has served my purpose and was money well spent in my book. It is no skin off my nose to let the seller benefit on the xrays or ultrasounds etc. They are no longer any use to me...and I was the one who purchased them for my purpose...so I would not expect or ask for the seller to pay for it.

Most people I know are the same way. I guess we believe in good karma...what goes around, comes around.

[NorthFaceFarm]

When my clients are shopping we always discuss PPE results with the seller, whether we are passing or buying. Several times our vet has found something concerning, we've brought it up to the seller, and the seller (usually in conjunction with their own reputable vet) has explained an old injury or something that has been present for years with no implications. Sometimes my vet buys their story, sometimes he still tells us to keep shopping.

Sharing info can't hurt. We're all horse people, we all want what's best for the animals. I think it would be silly to find something in the exam and NOT mention it. Especially if I liked the horse enough to vet it, I'd certainly want it to have the opportunity to get better/fixed/whatever so that someone less concerned could enjoy the horse in the future.

[Ghazzu]

I don't understand what benefit it is to the buyer to refuse to divulge the vet records to the owner of the horse. Yes they paid for it and it is their "right" but why on earth be so assinine?

You don't have to get into your PERSONAL interpretation of the records (i.e., exactly what it was about them that broke the deal for you), but it is mere courtesy to release them to the owner so that they know what is going on with their own horse and can represent him better to other buyers. IMO it is no skin off the buyer's back AT ALL; but maybe I haven't thought of something and someone can explain a situation where it would benefit a buyer who is passing on a horse anyway to keep a stranglehold on the records, or it would harm a buyer who is passing on the horse anyway to release them?
???

And for what? So that the next buyer can do the same exact vetting and find your exact results which the seller didn't know about because you didn't release them? Or the seller has to go vet the horse a second time on their bill so that they can try to figure out what the problem was before continuing to market the horse?

For this reason from a seller's perspective, I insist that buyers agree from the outset to release the records to me. That records release gets signed before the horse trots one step down the driveway.

Not a bad idea, but I think the reciprocal agreement should be in place as well--the seller ought to allow the release of the horse's medical history to the prospective buyer at the time of the PPE.

[Dapple Dawn Farm]

Wow, what a discussion...
It helped a lot that the seller was at the PPE and saw the same things that the vet had concerns about. When I talked to her afterward she agreed that the horse wasn't suitable for what I was looking for. Thanks for all the helpful information, insights, and suggestions. The search continues...

[Fairview Horse Center]

Not a bad idea, but I think the reciprocal agreement should be in place as well--the seller ought to allow the release of the horse's medical history to the prospective buyer at the time of the PPE.

Absolutely, and I don't know why anyone would not. If there is a question about the horse later, and the buyer feels that the seller covered something up, they can certainly get all records thru the courts. Why hide anything? I want the best home for my horses, so the more the buyer knows about the horse, the better.

I have forwarded xrays on a horse to a buyer before they even came to see the horse. Those xrays I might add were taken by a different purchaser that declined, and released them to me. I hope someday, someone does/did the same for them.

[flea]

Someone posted that the seller should know of all problems. Not necessarily. I am having to sell my event mare. She has never had any unsoundness. I have had no reason to xray. So, if someone vets her, something could show up, but I am not trying to hide anything. I don't sell horses as a rule, but financial difficulty have made me put her on the market. I will give full access to the vet records. I have always done so on the few horses I have sold. Isn't that common? However, if something did show up I would really appreciate being told what the problem is. I would GREATLY appreciate the xrays, but I would not spend $1,500 on the vets records. If I am going to spend that money on vetting I would prefer my own vet to do it as she is the one I would be working with to solve the problem. If I took other xrays to her she would probably want to do them herself anyway.

[meupatdoes]

Not a bad idea, but I think the reciprocal agreement should be in place as well--the seller ought to allow the release of the horse's medical history to the prospective buyer at the time of the PPE.

It would not even occur to me to do otherwise.
If someone is looking at my horse, they are absolutely welcome to call up my vet(s) and get the whole history.

I do not keep a current set of full on xrays for my horses, because that would be completey unaffordable, but any treatments or diagnostics they have gotten along the way the buyer is more than welcome to discuss with the vet.

I can not imagine as a seller deliberately restricting vet records. What is the point? To hide something so that a buyer will be tricked into buying a horse s/he otherwise would not have bought? That's not how I roll.
And no, I will not charge a fee because "I paid for these xrays back when."

But I would like the same courtesy in return, keeping in mind that ultimately, it is the HORSE here who benefits most.

[BeeHoney]

Toomanyponies, I agree with you, I think. Basically, if someone has contracted to buy a horse pending a vet exam, and they want to void the contract based on the vetting, I would feel entitled to have access to the results of whatever part of the exam was abnormal--like a hock xray if that was the problem. I would NOT expect to be handed a CD of the clean xrays if the vet failed the horse due to something unrelated.

If the reason for failing the horse was unrelated to the xrays, and I felt that it wasn't a significant issue (sometimes buyers fail horses for fairly minor reasons), I might offer to refund part of the cost of the xrays in order to have a copy to provide to possible future buyers. I would never want to make a disappointed buyer feel "used."

My sales contract DOES say that complete results of the vetting must be shared with me if the horse is failed. I have never had a buyer have a problem with this, but, then I have never asked for more than documentation of the specific problem, though most people share all of the info very freely. But, my experience may be biased by the fact that I don't sell all that many horses, and most of the ones I do sell do have at least a partial set of xrays already.

[Sakura Hill Farm]

We routinely get radiographs on our horses before we put them into training.

However, we had a mare that had passed her PROK exam in Holland but did not pass a PPE on the basis of her x-rays taken 2 years later. The mare had never been lame. We asked the buyer to share the xrays with us and were told that they were the property of the prospective buyer and would not be released to us. The horse was subsequently sold to a second buyer with no problem.

We surmised, although had no proof, that the trainer of the first buyer found a horse in his own barn that he wanted to put the buyer on. The entire episode wasted several months of prime marketing time and left a bad taste in our mouth.

[mvp]

You just have to try not to think the worst of the other party.

The buyer's vet may have found something on rads or elsewhere that he/she presented to the buyer as a problem that would disqualify the horse as "useful for intended purpose." Like everyone else, I don't see the problem with sharing that info-- down to the questionable bit of anatomy-- with the seller. But the buyer is not obligated to do that. So if they don't share, you have now way of knowing their wasn't a physical issue, not that there was none and the problem was in the buyer's head, wallet, trainer relationship, whatever.

And for all the people who would share everything with sellers and sellers (like me!) who don't X-ray without cause, some sellers really don't know what their horses' skeletons look like. Finding something can't possibly be "seller should have known."

But other sellers also *don't want to know*. It sounds strange and slick to those of us not in the biz, but I swear to God it happens. A friend of mine who was close to selling a horse through a trainer was given the opportunity to buy the incriminating rads. Trainer refused... when they showed the next buyer the horse who had not passed a PPE, they'd be obligated to turn over the radiographs they had. The trainer's advice was to tell the next buyer about the previous failed PPE, but then really to play as dumb as possible as to why or how bad the problem was. Friend was not happy.

Sadly, my friend is SOL now: No trainer, a horse who needs one bad in order to be useful to her or anyone else (he's that kind), *and* a horse she can't sell because she knows he won't pass a PPE in the market that might accept a horse who needs to be in a pro's program. ETA: And the horse has been sound for 4 years since that episode.

[WorthTheWait95]

I'm old enough to remember when x-rays were films, not on a disk, and as such were likely to be held by the vet who took them. The physical x-rays were the vet's property. If you wanted another vet to see them, you often had to have them sent from that vet to another vet. Often in a strangely-sized envelope that seemed to take forever to make its way thru the US postal system. Some vets literally would not release them directly to a client. Of course, I'm also old enough to have donned the lead apron and held plates when I was 12 years old.

I'm only 21 and did the same things...easy to forget that digital xrays actually aren't that old at all since they're basically the industry standard now! We still have our rads on film filed away at my clinic. I've got a few sets hanging around my house somewhere too. :) ...oh and I still have to wear those darn aprons and lead gloves on farm calls and when we do SA xrays at the clinic. Sure beats cancer but it's sometimes hard to remember that when it's 100 degrees outside and your battling a pissed off pony. :lol:

I've only had one horse fail a PPE. Actually, he didn't fail, he bombed it. I released all the records to the owner who was legitimately shocked. We all were because this was a horse that had been performing way above and beyond what his PPE said he should have been physically capable of. If he hadn't been so expensive I may have risked it because he HAD been doing the job (and his drug tests were clean).

The owners chose to take the horse off the market based on my PPE findings which were then confirmed by their own vet in order to manage the rest of his career very carefully and eventually retire him. It was certainly in the horses best interest for me to share my $2K worth of findings with them. I just look at it as part of buying horses and plan on that expense when I make my budget so it's really not a big to me at all.

[Hauwse]

Essentially I think the reason you would want to give the seller access to the PPE results is to support your decision not to buy.

Logically a PPE is only performed when there is a commitment to buy, regardless of a contract.

Keeping in mind that the PPE is nothing more than an examination, and that it is the vets responsibility to explain the significance of any abnormalities, in relation to the horses intended use, only, a vet should never pass or fail a horse, never guarantee a horses usefulness for a specific purpose, predict the length of the horses performance, value, or dictate whether a horse should be purchased, any extension into the aforementioned area's is unethical.

Given this, the decision to purchase or not to purchase based on a PPE is subjective. What one person deems a negative another may think nothing of, consequently ones decision not to purchase following the evaluation of a PPE should be the sole basis for not purchasing, and that deserves a thorough explanation, supported by the facts.

I think frequently when we think of purchasing a horse we only consider the buyers investment; however frequently there is a significant investment on the sellers part as well, and that must be considered.

Disclosing to the seller any information deemed from a PPE is best practice, period.

[RockinHorse]

Essentially I think the reason you would want to give the seller access to the PPE results is to support your decision not to buy.



While I agree with this, especially if a deposit is involved, access to the PPE results is, IMO, not the same as access to all of the records. For example, the results might be a written summary of findings and the records might include copies of the xrays.

As I said before, I prefer the seller to be present during the PPE and they are welcome to view the Xrays right along side me. For the most part, I have always released all records and have, if requested, asked my vet to please discuss their findings with the seller's vet.

There have been two times when I would not release the information, only a statement from my vet relating to the issue. In both of those issues, I believe the seller was not on the up and up.

[atlatl]

The seller is always welcome to attend the PPE. They can see and hear everything I see and hear, but I don't release the results to them.

The last "failed" PPE I paid for done at the seller's clinic (different vet); not my favorite thing to do but hey, the seller used the same nationally known clinic that my vet 300+miles away had recommended.

In short, I called my vet and trainer on the drive from the clinic to the airport and decided to pass based on the findings. Frankly, I should have stopped at the x-rays that showed the ringbone in the front and not even done the hocks saving myself $250 or so. Anyway, I called the seller (still driving to the airport) who was surprised and then proceded to call me several more times (yes, it was a long drive to the airport) after talking to her farrier and the breeder of the horse in question insisting that there wasn't a problem.

[mvp]

I agree that a PPE represents a genuine intention to buy. No one should do otherwise. And to the folks who drop that coin and then change their mind for some non-vetological reason? It sounds like an expensive way to go about things.

In the buyer's shoes, I'd like the chance to discuss findings that raised not-quite-deal-breaker questions for my vet who was evaluating the horse for my intended purpose. I'd have a hard time if I felt pressure from the seller or their vet to disregard my own DVMs concerns. But I'm a big girl, so whatever, but I can see why a seller who has known the horse day in, day out would want a chance for follow up discussion.

I did know a trainer who bought a Jr. Hunter who had some funky shoulder findings on the PPE. This was for a tough-to-mount client. The seller had known the horse to be sound for a long time and also knew what the horse's new job would be via discussions with the trainer. He agreed to buy the horse back within the first 12 months of ownership if the horse did not hold up. The trainer, who is usually conservative and always on the up-and-up, agreed in this case. It was an instance of really good communication and reasonable negotiations between pros when the mixture of PPE, horse in front of them and well-understood client needs all figured into the final equation.

[sar2008]

You should absolutely release ALL of the vet records to the owner of the horse. You don't have to say what you think about them, just

"After the vetting, I have decided this horse is not for me. I have made sure to release all the vet records so that you have access to them as well. Thank you for your time."

Do you have to? No. But it is a nice gesture. That way the owner has the OPTION to find out the results. Especially if you have a deposit "pending vetting." The owner is going to want to know why the horse failed....you want your money back right??

[findeight]

I dunno, if I passed based on my vets findings of "unsuitable for intended use"?

I am not going to change my mind and I do not want to discuss it with the seller. They can discuss it with my vet if they want, I will authorize release of those records to seller. But if I am not comfortable with the findings? I am not going to take the horse.

Now, if we get "suitable with reservations"? We can talk.

Ya' know, alot of times the PPE is interstate and during a trial period. Hardly think it typical for a seller to even be able to attend much less want to attend.

[rugbygirl]

Well, one time I passed on a horse due to PPE findings, told the owner what the vet found, and she argued with me that it wasn't that bad of an issue and/or the vet was wrong. After several calls I firmly told her that both MY vet and MY trainer, who I pay for advice, were advising me to pass and that was that, but it was really a pain of a situation.

This. I will never release the results to a seller again. In my case, the owner decided that the MAJOR MEDICAL PROBLEM didn't affect soundness TODAY, so it wasn't a problem and didn't constitute a fail...so she kept my significant deposit. Super.

--

Also, the sellers who feel obligated to give lessons? Just don't. I arrived without my trainer for whatever reason, but that doesn't mean I want/need a lesson from you. If the horse is for sale, keep your nose out of how I want to ride it. If you feel you just COULDN'T POSSIBLY stand someone buying your horse and riding it the way I do, tell me to get off and that you don't think it's a match. If you want me to even consider purchasing, do not let one word of "instruction" pass your lips. If I wanted you as a trainer, I'd employ you.

I've been out looking for Hunters. Two sellers completely lost their sales in the first five minutes by "instructing" me as I warmed up their horses. Buh bye. The world is not so short of good horses as that.

ETA: you're not such a brilliant instructor that you can fix my riding in the hour since you've met me. BLAH! Keep your mouth shut, even if you need to bite your lip to do it. I don't care that I wouldn't even be jumping yet if I was your student.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I've been out looking for Hunters. Two sellers completely lost their sales in the first five minutes by "instructing" me as I warmed up their horses. Buh bye. The world is not so short of good horses as that.

ETA: you're not such a brilliant instructor that you can fix my riding in the hour since you've met me. BLAH! Keep your mouth shut, even if you need to bite your lip to do it. I don't care that I wouldn't even be jumping yet if I was your student.

Well, would you like us to tell you how that horse has been asked to canter? Or would you rather just go around thinking the horse won't? We have been kind of shocked in the past that riders can't do basic things, so we usually give them the benefit of the doubt, and think "different aids" are maybe confusing the youngster?? Other riders seem terrified, and EXTREMELY grateful for a bit of verbal coaching.

It is not so much a ridihng lesson, as how WE have been working the horse.

[BeeHoney]

What I'm hearing from several posts is that people don't want to share the vetting results (if negative) because they don't want to have the seller argue with them about the significance/validity of the results. I guess that can create an awkward situation, but if you still have any interest in the horse it can be an opportunity to negotiate. If not, just firmly say, I'm really sorry, obviously I really liked your horse but I am not comfortable with the findings" and repeat as needed.

ALSO, it could be possible that the seller is right... Years ago I vetted a really lovely mare. The vet doing the prepurchase was very well respected, but since the horse was a little farther away he was not my regular vet. He found navicular changes on the xrays and also a serious vision problem. At that point, the sale was a definite "no" in my mind. I shared the results with the seller, who was understandably upset. She said to me, "I really have a hard time believing these results," and then she asked if I would consider a second opinion. So, she paid to have an eye specialist check the horse, and then also paid my vet to redo the foot xrays. The eye specialist said the horse's eyes were completely fine, and my vet considered the xrays normal. I did end up buying the mare and enjoyed her for years.

[shawneeAcres]

What I'm hearing from several posts is that people don't want to share the vetting results (if negative) because they don't want to have the seller argue with them about the significance/validity of the results. I guess that can create an awkward situation, but if you still have any interest in the horse it can be an opportunity to negotiate. If not, just firmly say, I'm really sorry, obviously I really liked your horse but I am not comfortable with the findings" and repeat as needed.

ALSO, it could be possible that the seller is right... Years ago I vetted a really lovely mare. The vet doing the prepurchase was very well respected, but since the horse was a little farther away he was not my regular vet. He found navicular changes on the xrays and also a serious vision problem. At that point, the sale was a definite "no" in my mind. I shared the results with the seller, who was understandably upset. She said to me, "I really have a hard time believing these results," and then she asked if I would consider a second opinion. So, she paid to have an eye specialist check the horse, and then also paid my vet to redo the foot xrays. The eye specialist said the horse's eyes were completely fine, and my vet considered the xrays normal. I did end up buying the mare and enjoyed her for years.

THis is not at all uncommon! I have known two such horses recently, one that was said to have OCD and so turned down by buyer. Seller takes horse to vet school to have OCD surgery, they do a new xray and low and behold NOTHING THERE! Second was a horse that one vet said had terrible navicular xarays, the horse was subsequently re-vetted and rexrayed and had "perfect" (the exact words of the vet) xrays which was confirmed by yet another vet! So honestly I do not put a lot of store in PPE's!

[findeight]

If the seller wants to pay for additional evaluation by a specialist for something like a vision irregularity, I might reconsider.

But that is not the norm, they want to argue and, possibly, refuse to return the deposit because there is not a bone sticking out or something. Or, as mentioned a few posts ago, there was a major medical problem, just not bothering the horse that particular day.

When there is nothing dramatic, it can get touchy. But no way would I take one my vet found questionable based on, say, clear evidence of prior and multiple soft tissue injuries even with clean x rays. They can have my vet's number if they want to disupte the findings, I still do not want the horse.

I got no problem with a seller acting like a professional and wanting information on a possibly unknown issue. Got alot with those that act like you are dissing their child, not arguing an unforseen result of a PPE on a horse the buyer really did want or they would not have blown all that $$$$ on the PPE in the first place.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Fairview, we're on exactly the same page. I was responding to TrotTrotPumkin whose post I read to mean that the 10% was non-refundable and/or bought the right to PPE info.

I do hope people won't find what's printed on my business card a basis for deciding whether or not I'm a flake. As a W-2 Ammy, I'm awash in a professional world where people honor agreements. Given the bad rep that "horse traders" have had forever, maybe we are at least as good at making word and deed match as is a professional horse trainer.

Sorry, wasn't clear. The 10% was to hold the horse off the market for over a week for out of state buyer to be able to come try the horse. There was another party who had cash and wanted to come get the horse that weekend. Everyone on here told me I was stupid to even take a deposit. The money would be returned if the horse didn't pass vet.

Re giving lessons. Rugbygirl, you sound pissed. Don't worry, I don't want to give lessons. If you can ride you don't get a lesson. There are literally people out there who don't know how to ride and go shopping for horses without any help. The problem is when they talk to you on the phone, they are experienced horsepeople who have done x and y....

These are the people I suggest bring a trainer, or more knowledgeable friend. I had someone get on a horse once, and the very first thing they did was kick him in both his sides screaming "YAH" and then let go of the reins. [Seriously, you can't make this crap up]. I did subsequently inform him politely that I didn't think they would be a good match. But I'm pretty sure I lost 5 years off my life.

[hb]

Got alot with those that act like you are dissing their child, not arguing an unforseen result of a PPE on a horse the buyer really did want or they would not have blown all that $$$$ on the PPE in the first place.

This is what I've dealt with and why I wouldn't give any more than the minimum detail. More discussion just fuels the argument.

If I had dealt with a rational seller yes, I'd give them the x-rays and whatever, thinking it would help the horse in the long run. Perhaps because I buy horses in a pretty low price range the sellers tend to be a little less professional. Not knocking anyone selling low priced horses, I've done that myself.

[rugbygirl]

Well, would you like us to tell you how that horse has been asked to canter? Or would you rather just go around thinking the horse won't? We have been kind of shocked in the past that riders can't do basic things, so we usually give them the benefit of the doubt, and think "different aids" are maybe confusing the youngster?? Other riders seem terrified, and EXTREMELY grateful for a bit of verbal coaching.

If the horse is so specifically trained that the usual "leg behind the girth" isn't going to get a canter, then I'd have preferred to know about it on the phone before I wasted my time. I don't want a spur-stopping or whip-trained horse. If it is a piece of advice like "we find he goes better if you provide a lot of support with the bit" when I pick up a very light contact, yes, that kind of input is appreciated. I would politely thank you, and file it away, and possibly tell you that I wanted to see how horse went on light contact. I might have a reason for that. If your next move was to screech at me, mid stride, to shorten the reins...that's where I get ticked.


Re giving lessons. Rugbygirl, you sound pissed. Don't worry, I don't want to give lessons. If you can ride you don't get a lesson. There are literally people out there who don't know how to ride and go shopping for horses without any help. The problem is when they talk to you on the phone, they are experienced horsepeople who have done x and y....

I am kinda pissed. I tried out two horses recently whose amateur owners COULD NOT help themselves from nattering, without a BREATH, about how I was riding their perfectly nice horses. I am not talking these were swishy tailed, ears flat beasts...they were going softly in the bridle for me and doing what I asked. I am no screaming heck as a rider, which I expressly stated to them, over and over, I was looking for a quiet, easy-going, fully-broke over fences horse. Not a 1.5m prospect! Anyway, so to hear a seller complain about "having" to give lessons touched a nerve. Trust me, you don't HAVE TO *directed at anonymous sellers I dealt with*

[mvp]

I don't think there's any reason to *give* a full lesson or to *accept* one on a test-drive ride.

I think many competent riders will find the horse to be untrained or unable to take correction if he's made to appear as if he comes with a really thick instruction manual.

When I go to try, I want to watch you ride him first. I'll see what you do and ask about how I might need to modify my aids when I'm on him or if I see you doing something that doesn't make sense to me. It's more like teamwork-- together we'll figure out how I can ride him best.

But I also want to know if he can tolerated someone with a different dialect. If I think I'm sitting on one that's truly untrainable (at least by me and my trainer), I'll hand him back to you.

When I watch someone ride a horse I'm selling, I also note just how much distance seems to exist between the way I ride the horse and the way the buyer does. If it's too great, I'll suggest that the horse isn't a match. I usually know who finicky or mentally flexible my horses are. The worried ones need a better match than do the good ol' boys.

While there are times that a post-failed-PPE input from the owner is helpful, I'd reserve the right to accept the recommendations of the vet I used. I'm not so afraid of confrontation that I won't discuss a failed PPE with an owner. If your old enough to buy a horse, you're old enough to take some flak for your decision.

[twobays]

Couldnt agree more. . . but being forthcoming with the reason the horse 'flunked' the vet, and providing the seller with a complete $1000 set of x rays gratis are two completely different things. this is where I am suggesting I would give the x rays to the seller for 50% of the cost

This reasoning is just plain stupid. The x-rays are a sunk cost at this point - it costs you NOTHING to release them. It's not like you're paying for something you wouldn't have purchased otherwise.

If you don't want to get into a big conflict with the seller over an ambiguous problem, fine, but the argument that the seller should be sharing your costs doesn't make sense.

[buschkn]

The bigger vet clinics are an hour and a half from me, so I always make it understood that I am more than happy to take the horse to the clinic of the buyer's choice at no charge for my time, fuel, effort, etc, but that in exchange the understanding is that if they pass on the horse they will release the vet records of the PPE to me, including xrays. I have NEVER had anyone decline this, and I have NEVER argued with someone if they passed on a horse for whatever reason.

As for the lesson giving part, I usually provide a couple suggestions if it seems warranted, but only if it will make it better for the rider and/or horse. I've never had anyone get insulted and jump off and stomp out of the ring, even though I am a MERE AMATEUR. If I own the horse, I know him, so clearly have more insight than someone who has ridden him for 3 minutes. It is meant to be helpful, not insulting. Lighten up I would say. Silly to pass on a perfectly nice horse just because the seller might be a goofball or annoying to you. Just shooting yourself in the foot. JMHO.

[Schune]

This reasoning is just plain stupid. The x-rays are a sunk cost at this point - it costs you NOTHING to release them. It's not like you're paying for something you wouldn't have purchased otherwise.

If you don't want to get into a big conflict with the seller over an ambiguous problem, fine, but the argument that the seller should be sharing your costs doesn't make sense.

I don't see why that doesn't make sense.

Years ago when I sold my mare to a kid, they did a full pre-purchase exam; nothing was found that I didn't know about, i.e. mare flexing sore on her left front because of a small, old suspensory issue, etc.

However, had they found something major in the xrays and declined to purchase, I figured I would have two options if I wanted to see them for myself - I could either pay the 1k for my own set done by my own vet, or I could offer to contribute a percentage toward the films held by the potential buyer. It would be cheaper for me to do option B.

Essentially the way I see it, the buyer paid for an item. No, they didn't HAVE to in order to purchase a horse, but they did. So what would make me, as a seller, entitled to that item free of charge if the buyer didn't want to give it over?

[DancingQueen]

I personally would share the information I got from the PPE with the seller.

I'm actually a bit surprised that a seller is not automatically entitled to see the results of a PPE. After all, he/she still owns the horse. It's like if somebody took my child to the doctor, I was told something was wrong but nobody would tell me what.

The way I see it, once you schedule a PPE you have pretty much agreed to purchase the horse unless something comes up.
For me, a vague "for undisclosed reasons I don't think I will buy him" is not good enough. I would want to state clearly what made me not want to buy the horse so that the seller knew I didn't just get cold feet or simply found another horse I liked better.

Naturally if the seller told me that he didn't want to know the details, I'd be just as happy to walk away from the whole thing.

For me, the money I spent on X-rays etc is an investment in my future with the horse. I'm trying to make sure I don't run into problems later or that I at least know what to expect.

Seems like I have absolutely no obligation to release the information to the seller, but I can't see why not. I spent the money already and if there's a big issue the seller will most likely anyways call in their own vet. Certainly no skin off my nose to give them a heads up on where to look. I highly doubt that anybody would put their horse on the market just to get a free lameness evaluation, but it is certainly a good idea! LOL!

If it's something minor that just doesn't fit my intended use, it will still serve the horse better if the seller knows about it and can market the horse correctly. *shrugs shoulders* Still no skin off my nose to share the information. Withholding would not make me richer, just the vet and trust me, I love them and what they do for us, but not that much!

[akrogirl]

THis is not at all uncommon! I have known two such horses recently, one that was said to have OCD and so turned down by buyer. Seller takes horse to vet school to have OCD surgery, they do a new xray and low and behold NOTHING THERE! Second was a horse that one vet said had terrible navicular xarays, the horse was subsequently re-vetted and rexrayed and had "perfect" (the exact words of the vet) xrays which was confirmed by yet another vet! So honestly I do not put a lot of store in PPE's!

I am also very sceptical of PPE's, but certainly wouldn't hesitate to share any results with the seller.

Both my geldings had findings on their x-rays. In the case of my WB, the seller agreed to let us choose another horse if the one I was buying became lame within the year on the leg showing the problem. My OTTB showed some navicular changes. I have had both horses for over ten years now and neither one has had any lameness issues other than the occasional stone bruise.

I didn't even bother to do PPE's on the youngsters I bought from a friend.

[judybigredpony]

A friend of mine was selling her horse. The buyers did a PPE, and the vet said the xrays showed he had ringbone (5 year old). The buyers declined, but did release the vetting results. My friend then took THEIR xrays to her vet to review. He said clean.

A few months later, she ran into the buyers who still had not found a horse. She mentioned that HER vet said there was no ringbone, diagnosing from THEIR vet's xrays. They agreed to forward the xrays to Morven Park to have them evaluated. Morven Park said there was absolutely no sign of ringbone or any other problem.

SO, the original purchaser was able to buy the horse with very little extra cost because they were decent people and released the vet finding.

If they won't help you, they may help the next buyer. Someone else's vet report on the horse YOU are interested in may save YOU a lot of money.

What goes around comes around.

In a similar situation (as a seller) I always offer to pay for a 2nd independant opinion on X-rays if the "Buyer" is still in love with the horse.
Then its up to the buyer.
If they pass on a 2nd opinion I expect as a courtesy for my vet to be able to go view the films. While respecting that they indeed did pay for the PPE,

[Gry2Yng]

I am also very sceptical of PPE's, but certainly wouldn't hesitate to share any results with the seller.

Both my geldings had findings on their x-rays. In the case of my WB, the seller agreed to let us choose another horse if the one I was buying became lame within the year on the leg showing the problem. My OTTB showed some navicular changes. I have had both horses for over ten years now and neither one has had any lameness issues other than the occasional stone bruise.

I didn't even bother to do PPE's on the youngsters I bought from a friend.

I don't think it is that PPE's are bad, per se. There are a lot of vets out there who aren't very good at reading/taking radiographs or ultrasounds. Really like your method judy.

[franknbeans]

A PPE is nothing more than an informed OPINION. Nothing more, nothing less. Look hard enough, and you can find something wrong with ANY horse (or person for that matter!). The "opinion" comes with respect to what is a "red herring", vs what may become a real issue. JMHO.

As far as sharing info-OF COURSE you should, if the seller asks! It is common courtesy, I would think, in the best interest of THE HORSE, and after all, KARMA IS A BITCH! :))

[rugbygirl]

^ with regards to KARMA, I have only had the misfortune of selling one performance horse. I absolutely did not get the results of the PPE, nor did I consider asking. My vet is one of the best in the region, I don't really care what their choice of vet found.

They only told me the results in order to drive down the horse's price. Their vet discovered that my off chuckwagon TB was bench-kneed. :rolleyes: You can see that in EVERY picture I've ever taken of that horse, he retired sound after SEVEN YEARS on the chucks and had been in full competition training for over a year and never taken a lame step.

Colour me uninterested in what the potential buyer's vet finds.

It is 100% usual in my area to not share the results, period. It is very UNusual for a potential buyer to provide access to the PPE results, especially if they pass on the horse.

[ESG]

Essentially the way I see it, the buyer paid for an item. No, they didn't HAVE to in order to purchase a horse, but they did. So what would make me, as a seller, entitled to that item free of charge if the buyer didn't want to give it over?

This.

Several years ago, I vetted a gorgeous dressage horse that had supposedly had the sort of training I wanted, at a price I could afford. I rode him twice, and then scheduled a PPE, even though the horse wasn't quite as advertised, and I thought something was NQR.

Turns out, the horse had severe hock problems that would almost certainly, according to my $1200 PPE (with 21 radiographs), would have led to his retirement within two years. Also turned out that the seller wasn't exactly surprised at the findings, but didn't trouble to tell me about them until after I'd paid for the PPE. When I gave her the results and declined the horse at any price, she got testy. Got even testier when I refused to release the radiographs, when she claimed she needed them for reference for giving him hock injections. :rolleyes: If she'd been honest with me in the first place about the horse's condition, I'd never have spent the money on the PPE, so I didn't think she was entitled to the radiographs taken on my dime. My bad. :p

[Pat]

GEEZ. All this is why I'm glad I've only sold a handful of horses.

Lauren! and I totally freeked out a vet once over a PPE. I (seller) was there for the whole thing with her (buyer) and even reviewed the xrays with them. Why? Well I knew there was a potential problem in one leg, and since we are friends and I actually believe in disclosure, I told her about it. I also offered to split the xrays (not the whole bill) with her as it would have had information that I would want if I kept the horse.

She bought the horse, tho the vet didn't necessarily "pass" him. Still sound, btw.

Yes, it's a nice gesture to release the findings. The cost is yours whether or not you buy, so WTF is the problem in doing so? You don't have to go out of your way, but if a PPE is the reason, then you should be offering hard reasons, not BS.

Sellers, remember that PPE's are relative. A good part of it is information that is absolutely subject to interpretation. Just because a particular vet "failed" a horse, doesn't mean crap. I know a STB racehorse that was bought back by the breeder after an auction. The buyer's vet did the equivalent of a PPE on the filly *after* the auction and found something that the new owner didn't like. The filly was the last foal from her dam and the breeder likes to keep a "friendly face" in the biz, so he agreed to buy back. Our vet pretty much looked at the findings, checked her out and recommended putting the horse in training without hesitation.

When her "bank" rose to $100k as a two year old, the genius who didn't want her tried to buy her again. NOPE. Now she's at $600+k, 12 wins, best time of 1:52.0, I'm looking forward to prepping *her* foals for the sales in a year or two. (sort of, we didn't like each other) The "problem" that boomerang'd that filly back home was nothing. Absolutely n-o-t-h-i-n-g.

Edited to add:
When buyer called seller about "returning" the filly, he gave a SOLID reason based on the vet exam. The reason turned out to be nothing in the end, but he was specific about it.

[Pat]

To sellers on second opinions:

Don't "chase" the answer you want just because you are in love.

I'll try to be vague as I can, as not to "out the idiot on COTH".
I worked for a particular person who "fell in love" with a horse with a fully disclosed problem. A cyst in let's say a "tricky" spot had already been removed once and it had come back. It was not an "immediate" problme but it would have to be removed at great expense eventually. Her vet told her she was OUT OF HER MIND to buy the horse.

Since she was in love, she got a second opinion. One that she wanted to hear. Bought horse, took it to a HS. DAYS after getting to this (far away) HS, yeah, you betcha, big 'ole problem. Lots of $$ and time on lay up later, horsie was ready to go again.

No, it didn't kill the horse. (but he did eventually croak, pt if you care...) but it sure cost her a ton of money that could have been saved if she had just kept looking.

[gallupgirl]

OK.

Well then they can also pay me for grooming and tack up, a day lease fee on my horse (property paid for BY ME) they have used on their trial day, AND throw in my hourly rate for the lesson I inevitably end up giving them when they show up without their trainer.

Totally TOTALLY agree with everything you said in this and the previous post. The reason *I think* buyers don't release the results of PPE's........they are control freaks!

Can you give us a copy of the agreement you have so they DO release the results?

[Xanthoria]

Totally TOTALLY agree with everything you said in this and the previous post. The reason *I think* buyers don't release the results of PPE's........they are control freaks!

Someone is a control freak because they won't give away something they paid $1500 for?

Huh? :confused:

I have to say if you decide to write your demand for PPE findings into a contract you won't find many folks ready to sign it, and as a result will lose sales. Doesn't seem smart in this economy to behave that way.

[Jaideux]

I think it's totally appropriate and ethically right to say which part of the PPE was concerning to you, but I don't think it's a seller's right to demand the PPE films, etc, without compensating you some portion of your expense. Yes, it was your choice to do the PPE, but it's also their choice to want to confirm the findings. You chose to pay for the PPE because you wanted that information... if they want the same information beyond your brief report, they can choose to pay you or pay their own vet. I have a feeling I know which is cheaper...

If I'm in the market to buy a horse in the future, I would definitely be interested in paying a previous potential buyer to access their PPE results. I'd be saving myself some time and money, and also give my vet an opportunity to know what might be of special interest going in. Depending on who did it or what was found, I may have my vet do her own PPE, but it would be a nice starting point if I could look at someone else's. If their right front knee was a slightly blurry shot but the rest were good, I'd probably re-image that. Or, if a blemish was found, I'd have my vet do a pretty focused exam on that issue, especially if it was relevant to the horse's future job. I'm not sure I'd be super willing to pay extra for the seller to show me a recent PPE, because wheras the previous potential buyer has no vested interested in whether or not I buy the horse and would probably need money to persuade them to relase the info, the seller DOES have a vested interest and should view it as "cost of business" and not something they can charge extra for. Just like they don't charge "extra" for fetching the horse from the field and hopefully cleaning it up at least a little bit prior to my arrival.

If a seller wanted access to the official PPE, I would expect some compensation. Of course, I would tell them WHY I was passing on the horse, such as "the vet found something wonky in the left hip, and since we can't be sure if it's a fitness issue (the horse had not been in a lot of regular work before I tried him) or a degenerative issue (he was older, had been campaigned quite a bit locally), I'm not willing to take the risk and buy him".

But, if they wanted the actual pictures/results, I would expect to be paid a portion of the fee I paid for the specific service they are benefitting from. If they wanted to see the radiographs, I would ask for a portion of the x-ray fees, but I would not ask for money related to the farm call or the blood draw. If they don't want to pay for the portion of the exam they want more info on, they can have their own vet out to check it out, farm fee and all.

If I was selling a horse, I would feel no differently. I would expect to pay someone for access to something I don't already have (actually, that's why I pay board... the BO has something I don't have but want to have!).

[Signature]

Well, I am sure she would like to know the reason, but that's up to you. I had one not "pass" the PPE because it was three once. Well, ummm, yeah, I told you it was three. Would have made for sense for them to just say she isn't the one. :)

OMG That is so funny! We had folks say the very same thing, horse had a flawless vetting and the person came back and said he was "too young" (he was 3 also). Ummm, he's been 3 the whole time... totally weird...

But to answer the question, I would just tell what is wrong and why it won't work for you. We sell plenty of horses and while 95% pass the vet just fine, there is always one that has an issue that someone can't accept, and we don't blame the person for passing if it won't work for them. No harm no foul.