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View Full Version : Hostile attitude over warm up jumps



Wanderluster
May. 3, 2010, 10:44 PM
:confused: Ok maybe this has been a trend for years but I have to ask when did the "I own this cross rail " become so prevalent in the warm up ring?
Call me ancient but I recall a time where all jumps were available to school over, in fact SOMETIMES riders from different barns jumped the same x rail, vertical and oxer. They actually SHARED a fence or two.
Now it seems to be a big pissing contest, akin to dogs lifting their legs to mark territory.
If you haven't been tutored by today's manual it seems that there are express rights to a certain fence and if you attempt to ride that oxer you will find the ground crew resetting ~ ignorant to the fact that you are two strides away.
I am confounded to the disregard to polite and courteous behavior in general but this is just stupid.

flyracing
May. 3, 2010, 11:17 PM
I ride on my own (aka with out a trainer to claim a jump) up to the 1.30s and I always politely asked a trainer if I can use the jump they are schooling their rider over. I have never had one say no, but it has been akward with some younger trainers who find my request suprising. If I find someone over 40, they have always been quick to say it's no problem. I stay out of their riders way and they don't reset the jump while I'm going over it.

So, yes, it is the way things are done now days, but I find a little communication goes a long ways. I have to be more flexible in my warmup than I would be if I had my own ground crew all the time, but really, it's never been a big deal for me.

SkipChange
May. 3, 2010, 11:21 PM
In H/J you generally see trainers each stake out their own fence. Sometimes with trainers sharing a fence if there are only a few. Kinda just the way things are done, that I'm aware of. It makes it a lot easier to keep from running into people when fences are being jumped in both directions in a crowded warm-up ring. I've shown without a trainer and other trainer's politely let me slip in over their jump, no problem as long as I wasn't cutting off their riders.

Now when I did eventing-- there was 1 X, 1 vertical, and 1 oxer. Everyone called the fence, jumped it in a single direction, and mostly got along. Different sport.

gottagrey
May. 3, 2010, 11:46 PM
have to side w/ Wanderluster.. Seems the trainers/ground crew forget that the schooling jumps are there for everyone to school over... It doesn't need to be total chaos but they don't need to claim a jump as theirs. The H/J world could use a little training from the event world i.e. have a cross rail, vertical and oxer set and everyone can school - flags wouldn't hurt either and you can still jump the jumps off both leads... Trainers should also remember than schooling fences are schooling fences - meaning that warming up doesn't have to be an entire lesson...

ontarget
May. 3, 2010, 11:51 PM
I ride on my own (aka with out a trainer to claim a jump) up to the 1.30s and I always politely asked a trainer if I can use the jump they are schooling their rider over. I have never had one say no, but it has been akward with some younger trainers who find my request suprising. If I find someone over 40, they have always been quick to say it's no problem. I stay out of their riders way and they don't reset the jump while I'm going over it.

So, yes, it is the way things are done now days, but I find a little communication goes a long ways. I have to be more flexible in my warmup than I would be if I had my own ground crew all the time, but really, it's never been a big deal for me.

Exactly the same here, except up to 1.40m and usually with someone on the ground to help set fences. I haven't had a problem yet--communication is key.

If I'm not sharing a jump, I will have one of my helpers (usually a younger teen) claim a jump that is open. Not to possess it mind you, just to stand there to help set fences. A couple times I have had trainers come up with their hackles raised to try and "steal" the jump from me and this younger girl, mostly I think because they are confused as to what is going on and are probably asking themselves "Why the heck is this younger girl holding the fence for no reason when there are riders who need to warm-up?" If this happens, I usually just talk to them in a very respectful manner which instantly settles the problem, then find a way to appease all involved (usually by sharing the jump). Everyone gets along, and we all jump happily ever after. :)

Except for those rare instances, I've never had a problem.

Wanderluster
May. 4, 2010, 12:53 AM
I am not implying that I can't stake out a schooling fence with help as standby, more wondering how a cross rail became soverign to the 8 year old who is on his third lap at the trot into a twenty minute hack preparation. Your use of the term "steal" and "hackles raised" about a jump? From a purely intuitive side I sense a defensive posture.

I mean no ill feelings toward cross rail kids or any others.
I suggest only that aside from common courtesy of a" May I jump along in your warm up?" ... Where by the way should always be yes, we all get along as sportsman in the warm up area.

ExJumper
May. 4, 2010, 01:09 AM
I am not implying that I can't stake out a schooling fence with help as standby, more wondering how a cross rail became soverign to the 8 year old who is on his third lap at the trot into a twenty minute hack preparation. ;)

I mean no ill feelings toward cross rail kids or any others.
I suggest only that aside from common courtesy of a" May I jump along in your warm up?" ... Where by the way should always be yes, we all get along as sportsman in the warm up area.

At bigger shows, the crossrail kids rarely have to share a warmup ring with people jumping higher fences. H/J world has its own way for doing warmup rings. Sure, there'll always be a trainer or two who decides that right before 50 ammy adults want to show is the best time to give her rider a lesson on her jr jumper and set gymnastics and in-and-outs. (Giddy-Up, you know who I mean!)

But for the most part it works. Plus, everyone has a different warm up. Sometimes you start with the oxer and end with the vertical. Sometimes you try to get a rub on a bigger fence to end on. Sometimes you go right instead of left. Trainers aren't likely to use a fence for more that 5 minutes, and if they aren't using it, other trainers come right in.

Works fine. There are bad apples in every bunch and there is always going to be a jump-hoarder somewhere! We've had solo people jump fences with us, and my trainer is always polite. But if it's time for her rider to jump a 3' oxer and the solo person wants a 2' vertical, my trainer is the one who is going to set what she wants.

ontarget
May. 4, 2010, 01:18 AM
I am not implying that I can't stake out a schooling fence with help as standby, more wondering how a cross rail became soverign to the 8 year old who is on his third lap at the trot into a twenty minute hack preparation. Your use of the term "steal" and "hackles raised" about a jump? From a purely intuitive side I sense a defensive posture.

I mean no ill feelings toward cross rail kids or any others.
I suggest only that aside from common courtesy of a" May I jump along in your warm up?" ... Where by the way should always be yes, we all get along as sportsman in the warm up area.

Not quite sure what you are getting at? Are you saying you are just against the attitude of "this is my jump"? I suppose the few instances those trainers have come up and tried to shoo away my helper, the battle of who owns the fences isn't right. But what I was saying is that usually when that happens, its just a confusion on the part of the incoming trainer, and they think I'm akin to what you describe as the crossrail kid who hoards the fence when they are trotting around for 20 minutes and is nowhere near ready to take the fence. In reality I am more than happy and even inclined to share the jump, my helper is just standing by to set fences.

I'm curious as to where you are running into a problem with this? Are you asking trainers/riders to share a fence and they are refusing without good reason?

ETA: I also agree with the above reasons for claiming a jump--some riders have different warm-up needs for their horses. It is annoying if someone hoards a fence when they are, say, 10 horses out, but usually communication eases that barrier as well.

Wanderluster
May. 4, 2010, 01:34 AM
Sorry , I seem to have missed the target ... thanks . My question was meant to be considered as an editorial about preparing for compettion. :)
I said something to another trainer and his wife said " yeah , now you have to radio "Juan x y z to go look for a jump in the warm up , it is strange. "

crazyhorses
May. 4, 2010, 01:40 AM
I notice a lot of trainers do 'stake their fence', but everyone gets to use all three (that's how many there usually are here) if they wish. They just have to ask. lol It's kind of odd.

Go Fish
May. 4, 2010, 02:37 AM
I see a lot of trainers "staking" out a fence, but it's not like they stake it out for the entire day. They hog it for the time it takes to warm up a kid or amateur or two, then give it up. There's usually three to four jumps available in each warm up ring, so it's never a problem.

It's not that big of a deal...if you wait 10 minutes or so, a jump usually opens up.

Lucassb
May. 4, 2010, 09:09 AM
I haven't run into too many problems, even in busy schooling areas, but then my warm up tends to be 2 or 3 jumps total, so maybe I'm not in there long enough!

But generally I find that trainers have their "blocks" of riders in a class and they tend to like to warm them up together, using the routine that the horses and riders are used to. It's not a big deal to let someone else slip in and use the jump along with those riders, but that assumes that the rider in question is using the jump(s) as they are set for the trainer's crew.

The only time I have seen problems is the scenario ExJ mentions, where someone wants to finish up on a 3' oxer and the rider who is working in wants that 2' vertical.

Trixie
May. 4, 2010, 09:16 AM
I'm with the OP - I do find it a little bizarre and I've seen a few people who are a bit defensive about it. Makes it more complicated for those of us not schooling with a ground crew or who don't have 45 minutes to wait while some trainer finishes teaching a full out lesson. Most folks are polite if about you asking to share "their" fence if you're polite, some are not.

Shrunk "N" Da Wash
May. 4, 2010, 09:25 AM
I've always been tempted at HITS to go around and jump everyones fence in warm-up just to stir the pot. :lol::lol::lol:

I of course would not cut anyone off and hopefully not knock a
rail down giving them no "real" reason to whine about it...

Some people take things like this far too seriously and invent some unwritten ethics "code" and if that code is broken even though you are not hurting anyone nor breaking "rules" they still get their panties in a bunch about it.

mvp
May. 4, 2010, 09:46 AM
I show by myself and I have not had a problem.

Part of that is because I'm organized. I figure out what's going on at the gate before I start my warm up. It's a PITA to do all riding and scheduling myself with patient saint of a horse in tow, but that's the way it is. I can plan a spot in the order that doesn't screw with a trainer's blocks and monopoly.

When it comes to jumping, I try to minimize the number so it's not usually a problem. If I see someone actively setting poles, I ask if I can jump in with their stream of riders. If they're just standing there and I sense an unfairly raised leg, screw 'em. I pick my line and go. Let them tell me I can't use "their" fence. As I say, I have never had anyone get mad.

Old, knowing what you are doing or looking like you do does have it's advantages.

nlk
May. 4, 2010, 09:54 AM
Interesting thread.

I think you maybe misinterpreting trainers trying to be in the ring but out of the way as this is my fence. Often I will go stand next to fence because it's a little less likely to get plowed:lol:

Now on the other hand. I am younger, in my area there are few trainers my age. I have another who's 30 or so and a second who's early to mid 30's other then that EVERYONE else is 40+. Because of the age groups I find it harder to communicate with the 40+ trainers but Communication is key.

Because I try to be low profile and not ruffle feathers I usually ask " can we follow your riders in" or I simply yell to my riders to follow "the bay pony" or what not. (And yell I mean because lets face it who can hear in a warm up unless you yell:lol:) That way the other trainer knows that there is someone following behind their rider.

Now that's not to say I don't get " piss off" looks when I ask and that a different trainer doesn't send their rider over the opposite direction at the moment the first trainers horse lands BUT that's usually the trainer who doesn't pay attention to anyone else any way! (of course they also give snide looks when you have the audacity to follow traffic and they don't so obviously it's your fault there was ALMOST a collision and your rider had the sense to pull out!)

But communication is always key, a smile goes a long way too. It might not always be returned but it is always noticed. When you're in an industry where it's a constant competition in and out of the ring. It's natural for everyone to try to make everyone else inferior unless you are in their good graces so my goal is to be in everyone's good graces!

nlk
May. 4, 2010, 09:58 AM
Oh I did have one trainer monopolize the entire warm up ring last year. it was at our local finals. She holds several local medal qualifying shows at her barn every year SO she has a lot of kids in the finals. Right before she had the ALL out in the ring warming up. My two kids come back and say "so and so is giving a lesson in the ring we can't warm up." My response was " get out there and warm up, stay out of the way, but it's not her ring"

i don't think it was intentional she just had that many riders going first thing in the morning!

hntrjmprpro45
May. 4, 2010, 11:08 AM
I have found that certain trainers in my area are notoriously obnoxious about their warm up jumps. So much that I go WAY out of my way to warm up my horses and riders when I know those trainers won't be there.

I don't think its necessarily an age thing with trainers- its usually a matter of professionalism. I have encountered several older trainers who were the biggest PITA ever- like show management having to threaten to kick them out (one even followed through with closing a division to a trainer)! I have also had to deal with some younger trainers who had some major ego issues as well. Its pitiful in my opinion, and its usually those unprofessional trainers who get ostracized from the riding community. They may be able to keep some clients because of some success in the show ring, but they usually lose a lot of respect with other trainers which can ultimately hurt their business!

NorthFaceFarm
May. 4, 2010, 11:32 AM
I think of it this way - the warm up ring is for WARMING UP not fixing problems. I will monopolize a jump for a few minutes, just long enough to get my rider over it 2-3 times at perhaps 2 different heights. If I have more than one rider, it may take an extra minute. Do I mind if someone else jumps it? No, but I'm not going to wait for you if I'm ready to move it up or out, especially if you don't loudly announce your approach to it. In the bigger jumpers, when I'm in the saddle, I have a groom grab a fence for me and we're in and out just as quickly. A ring never moves fast enough to necessitate 30 people jumping in the schooling ring at once - every one can wait their turn to take over a fence.

If you need to teach a whole lesson before the class, take your kid somewhere else.

lindsay.anne
May. 4, 2010, 11:42 AM
I was helping one of my younger friends warm up at a schooling show while her trainer was helping younger girls. So we're complaining about those "one jump hogs" now lets picture a trainer hogging the ENTIRE course. For granted, it was a schooling show, but there is no need to tell every rider in the ring that they can not jump because your student is completing the entire course without another rider attempting a jump across the ring. Not only was the girl I was with veryyy agitated, the other riders in the ring were as well. Trainer made it VERY clear that it was her students turn to jump the entire course without any interruptions, and you had to wait until all of her kids were done.

And later on this caused problems, as her horse who was iffy at the roll top, ducked out and she fell off during her round, which is why schooling over that fence a few more times would have been optimum for a green horse.

*BTW this was not a paid warm up, it was a general warm up in the actual ring over the exact same jumps. The warm up at this point was open to everyone.

midkniggit
May. 4, 2010, 01:38 PM
I was helping one of my younger friends warm up at a schooling show while her trainer was helping younger girls. So we're complaining about those "one jump hogs" now lets picture a trainer hogging the ENTIRE course. For granted, it was a schooling show, but there is no need to tell every rider in the ring that they can not jump because your student is completing the entire course without another rider attempting a jump across the ring. Not only was the girl I was with veryyy agitated, the other riders in the ring were as well. Trainer made it VERY clear that it was her students turn to jump the entire course without any interruptions, and you had to wait until all of her kids were done.

I saw something very similar at a local schooling show, also in an open warm-up. There were about 12 or so riders in the arena. One trainer was sending her riders one at a time to jump the entire course. One of her riders does the first and second lines at a blazing speed and then calls the 3rd line. Before she called that line, a different rider was already headed for it and was about 5 or 6 strides from the first jump, moving at a very relaxed pace. First rider charges fast towards the line, shrieking "HEADS UP - MOVE!!" The trainer also yells at rider 2, and goes running towards her. Rider 2's horse freaks out and goes sideways, and the line is now clear for 1st rider.

Fortunately that trainer and her students were the only ones that were awful to deal with that day - everyone else was really great about sharing the warm-up and being gracious about occasional mishaps. No one else seemed to have an issue pulling up, slowing down, or circling if needed...

Tex Mex
May. 4, 2010, 02:05 PM
IMO warm-up ring etiquette should follow the order of go. So if you go before me, you should use the jump until you're done, then I will use it. Most trainers follow that and that's why it might seem like they are hogging the jump. In reality, they are just trying to get their client warmed up and off to the ring as quick as possible. However, if they go after you and you don't have a jump to use, there is no problem with saying "Hey I go before you in the order, do you mind if I work in with you on this jump?".

CHT
May. 4, 2010, 06:13 PM
Curious...for those of you without a jump crew, what do you do when you knock a jump?

I used to groom for a high level barn....and I was the kid that held the jump that had the best footing for us to warm up on. I would happily set it for anyone else who wanted to use it until we were ready, but once we needed that jump, it was going to be set however I needed it to be. It WAS a bit of a competition, and in the jumpers in particular, timing can be crucial, and having the right schooling at the right time can mean the difference between a sharp horse, and a tired/bored/cool down horse.

mvp
May. 4, 2010, 06:19 PM
I'm merely in hunter and eq world showing by myself, so I agree it's a bit easier than jumpers where fences are adjusted carefully to get just the size and shape the horse needs each time.

As to knocking them down, I usually have already been nice to the person by the fence so they reset it and I thank them. If everyone is mounted and I knock one down, I'll get off and reset it if I possibly can. That's just polite even if inconvenient. It rarely comes to this.

pooh
May. 4, 2010, 06:29 PM
First, this thread reminds me of one of the reasons I switched to eventing. Three jumps, flagged to be jumped with red to the right, jumps set at warm up height for the appropriate division in the ring. Since the horses are usually going from stadium to cross country, sometimes with very lilttle break in between - riders warm their horses up, take a few warm up jumps to get the horses brain in gear - off dressage work, etc - then they are out. If a trainer has a few students - they in general gladly allow others to tag along through the rotation of the jumps.
As for the schooling shows where you can school the course -- I think the best thing I ever saw was at Blue Goose in PA where the owner, who had many students showing, pretty much ran a controlled school in the lower ( usually more dangerous divisions) everyone lines up at the first line- went one by one over the line of 1-2 jumps, then moved to the second line , etc. Everyone got to school the related fences, no one hogged the ring and if there was an issue - there was enough control to deal with it.
When I showed other venues alone ( I ususally went without a trainer, or trainer was usually helping someone else ) I was the one in the ring that you could hear at the trailers calling a line or jump -- alot of trainers would tell their students to get behind me!! And my wonderful horse would continue to plow down the line - and into any riders who decided to cut us off :eek:

PNWjumper
May. 4, 2010, 07:14 PM
I don't think it's terribly strange. When I'm schooling for a 1.30m or 1.40m class I often have a specific set of jumps I'd like to jump. And I definitely put the fence up way faster than most of my fellow riders meaning I'd have to take a lot longer to school if other people were jumping the same jump. Having said that, I've never turned someone down who wanted to jump a jump with me, and I always defer to someone earlier in the order of go.

I also often occasionally show on my own with no groundperson. At one point or another I've had just about every trainer in the NW either invite me to jump with their people, set fences for me specifically while their people warm up, or bring one of their kids in to set fences for me. And the unwritten rule is always that someone earlier in the order of go gets precedence over warm up jumps. Never seen a trainer refuse someone going in the class before their person.

I guess if you didn't know any of the trainers it might seem a little hostile, but IME it's been anything but. There is, of course, always a bad apple to spoil the "rules," but I've definitely found it to be the exception!

Wanderluster
May. 4, 2010, 10:56 PM
I believe that most people are considerate and polite, asking to join in during a warm up is basic courtesy.
What I am objecting to is the "boss" saying "OXER" as they ride away from the fence and suddenly the vertical you were cantering to a few strides out being rearranged. WTF ?
I have been at this a long time, old trainers and young do cross the line occassionally.
Typically the more secure and established a professional is the less the drama in the warmup. They bring horses and riders that are prepared to show ,get over a fence or three, and get to the ingate.
I F ing hate a conference between rider and trainer that takes place in front or between a line .
I hate two or three riders abreast chatting at the walk while others are two away in the order and attempting to get around assembly of horses blocking the approach .
Oh and I really hate someone texting on horseback oblivious to all others .
Work that on your time, not mine.
I do get grumpy... :lol:

Duckz
May. 4, 2010, 11:21 PM
I normally don't have an issue in the warm up area (LOUDLY announcing my intention to jump the outside vertical, sometimes more than once, helps). Last spring though, I ventured into the warm up ring to pop over a couple jumps right before a medal class. Well, it seemed like everyone and their dog was in that ring, and three different trainers had staked the three jumps for their students. I had the same experiences other people mentioned - calling a fence and having someone else barrel towards from the opposite direction at mach 10, forcing me out; calling a fence and having the trainer reset it when I'm three strides out; calling a fence and having someone cut me off; calling a fence and then the trainer wanders out in front of it for no apparent reason... it got really frustrating and overwhelming. And this was at a relatively small C show! I can't imagine trying to navigate the warm up ring at a larger show by myself.

I'm sure most of the trainers weren't doing it intentionally, but one guy in particular seemed to get off on how important he and his students were :rolleyes:

At any rate, I'm on an elephant-sized horse these days, so maybe the smaller horses will just bounce off of us as we head toward a warm up jump :winkgrin:

peachy
May. 5, 2010, 12:01 AM
I saw this thread title and though it was about my horse who, this weekend, unceremoniously dumped me in a mud puddle after landing off a jump in the warm up ring. Now that was hostile! I'm still trying to get the grit out of my TS.

Roxy SM
May. 5, 2010, 12:05 AM
One of my trainers has told me a story about warming up a client at Lake Placid many years ago. They were sharing the jump with a Hunterdon client in the same class, and before either trainer could stop them, both riders jumped the jump at the EXACT same time going opposite directions! Talk about amateur-friendly horses... Both trainers were left utterly speechless, but otherwise nobody was harmed!

I can't say I've ever really had a major problem in the warm-up ring myself. All the shows I've been at up here like Thunderbird and Spruce flag their warm up fences so you don't have to worry about someone coming at it from the opposite direction but even without that it's always been fine. As for claiming the jump, some of the horses I've shown have been very simple straightforward horses that would perform well in the ring regardless what we jumped and with those I often shared with other riders no problem. Some of the horses I've shown, however, needed a very specific warm up that probably would have made it difficult for others to fit in, although they would have been welcome to if they'd wanted to jump what my trainer was setting. I don't do too many warm up fences on any that I've shown though so even if I'm "hogging" it it's only for a few minutes. Of course, as others have said, most trainers/riders are good about letting those ahead of them in the order jump first.

Go Fish
May. 5, 2010, 12:41 AM
One thing I will concede to is the fact that professionals, both big and small time, fail to teach ring etiquette these days. Like passing left shoulder to left shoulder, keep off the rail while walking, don't ride abreast, etc. Sure, some of it's just plain common sense, but unfortunately, that's lacking these days.

When I see a group of pony riders heading for the warm up ring, I boogie right on out of there. :lol: