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View Full Version : Ahhhh, Scrappy T could have won it but for...



Sonesta
May. 21, 2005, 03:27 PM
his jockey looking back to see if Afleet Alex was going to fall.

Sonesta
May. 21, 2005, 03:27 PM
his jockey looking back to see if Afleet Alex was going to fall.

bird4416
May. 21, 2005, 03:28 PM
What a race!! I'm surprised the jockey didn't come off.

PSD
May. 21, 2005, 03:30 PM
I am at work. Who did win? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

buryinghill2
May. 21, 2005, 03:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sonesta:
his jockey looking back to see if Afleet Alex was going to fall. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Were we watching the same race? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Simkie
May. 21, 2005, 03:32 PM
Afleet Alex won, Scrappy T was second and Giacomo third.

I think Scrappy T coulda won if his jock hadn't hit him with that left handed whip. What the HELL was he thinking?

Barn Bum
May. 21, 2005, 03:33 PM
Wow, I thought Afleet Alex's jockey was coming off! I held my breath for a second there; that was a pretty hard trip, and hopefully he's okay after the race. Scrappy T, I don't know if it's just me, but it looked as if he started moving up early on the far turn. It was a good race though.

*NO HORSES TO SLAUGHTER

CuriosoJorge
May. 21, 2005, 03:33 PM
Scrappy T should have been set down below Giacomo, or diaqualified altogether. That was blatant interference.

bird4416
May. 21, 2005, 03:34 PM
Maybe someday, Ya got to see a replay. Afleet almost went down and still won. What a horse.

Jessi P
May. 21, 2005, 03:36 PM
Go Alex!!!! wow, what a horse.

Simkie
May. 21, 2005, 03:36 PM
I agree with you, CuriosoJorge. I was SHOCKED when the official results listed him as second.

I thought he really had a chance, but that jock made one hell of a mistake http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Galileo1998
May. 21, 2005, 03:37 PM
Scrappy T didn't interfere with Giacomo in any way at all, nor did the interference that happened improve his position in respect to Giacomo. He and Afleex Alex were lengths in front at the time. It would make no sense to disqualify him. He was going to finish second anyway, and the only horse that he interfered with beat him.

The jock had NO WAY to magically know the horse was going to react like that when he hit him left handed, and no control over it when the horse overreacted.

PSD
May. 21, 2005, 03:40 PM
Hm-m-m, so, Giacomo didn't do so badly. Would love to see replay, but probably not much chance of that. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Drumbiggle
May. 21, 2005, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sonesta:
his jockey looking back to see if Afleet Alex was going to fall. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


??????????????????????????????????????

No offense to Scrappy, but if AA hadn't gone to his knees he'd have won by 10 lengths.



.

PiedPiper
May. 21, 2005, 03:42 PM
Wow!! That is all I can say, what a race.

Regardless, congrats to xcntrygirl for her day in and day out work with Scrappy T. Looks like their hard work has paid off! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Drumbiggle
May. 21, 2005, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CuriosoJorge:
Scrappy T should have been set down below Giacomo, or diaqualified altogether. That was blatant interference. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Er no, the only horse he interfered with was AA, who finished in front of him at the line. There is no logic for disqualifying him.... not in any racing jurusdiction in the world.



.

Zevida
May. 21, 2005, 03:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sonesta:
his jockey looking back to see if Afleet Alex was going to fall. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Sonesta, but you weren't watched the same race as anyone else on the planet. The jocky on Scrapy T looked back because Scrappy T was the one who caused Alex to go to his knees. The jockey on Scrappy T was checking to see who he had interfered with when the horse bulged over and if they were okay.

If Scrappy T hadn't interfered, Afleet Alex would have blown by him with ease and won by 10.

And I know there is someone on here with connections to the horse, but I hope they take this race as a blessing and now work on keeping Scrappy T straight in the lane. This is now the second race that he has run erratically in the stretch. If he keeps doing it, next time the other horse and jockey might not be so lucky to stay on their feet and a serious accident could happen.

Tiffany01
May. 21, 2005, 03:48 PM
I was like whoa!!!!

CSSporthorses
May. 21, 2005, 03:49 PM
Either way, congrats to Scrappy and xcntrygirl. Also glad to see Alex win and that Giacomo could @ least have a respectable placing to shut all the critics up since the derby win. Is there someone taking over the Triple Crown or are we just going to have a "triple crown" with no bonus to the winner? I had no clue Visa was pulling out until today ... Also, BRAVO for the governor to encourage the fans of MD racing that he will do whatever it takes for MD to get slots. Just crossing fingers that it happens ...

TBLover
May. 21, 2005, 03:50 PM
Alex was making an amazing move around the turn and I agree, would definitely have blown by Scrappy -- and even as it was, he still won going away, after basically being on his knees. No way was Scrappy winning this one, regardless.

mcm7780
May. 21, 2005, 03:51 PM
CSS -- Visa pulled out?!? I missed that part... WOW!!! That stinks!

CuriosoJorge
May. 21, 2005, 03:53 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I am well aware that Scrappy T did not interfere with Giacomo. However, the horse and the jockey should be held accountable for his behavior. Whether you believe that the jockey could control what happened or not, that is the jockey's job! This is not the first time the horse has done this, so apparently the connections need to be sent a message that the horse needs reschooling. This is why I believe the horse should have been disqualified.

Galileo1998
May. 21, 2005, 03:56 PM
That may be your opinion, but unless your opinion has any influence on the rules of racing worldwide the result standing shouldn't be a shock.

And holding the horse and jockey accountable by placing them behind one horse they didn't interfere with (Giacomo) but in front of a bunch more horses that he didn't interfere with (the rest of the field) doesn't make any logical sense, no matter who's writing the rules.

lyrical
May. 21, 2005, 03:58 PM
OMG!! When Alex got up again, he just DUG IN and found another gear! I swear he looked really p*ssed off with the interference. What a look of determination on him!

The Fjord Jockey
May. 21, 2005, 03:59 PM
CJ= I am curious as to how someone can form so strong an opinion without actually knowing what they are talking about (as it's clear that you do not).

(1) How is this Dominguez's fault? He gave the horse a decent ride, and you can't fault him for the horse blowing the turn.

(2) The only horse Scrappy could have taken out was Afleet Alex. Now, had Alex run 2nd, Scrappy would have undoubtedly been taken down. However, Giacomo ran exactly as he would have run regardless of anything Scrappy T did.

(3) Please, get on a racehorse that blows a turn and tell us what YOU did to control it. I'm all ears, and I'm sure some of the greatest riders ever would be eager to learn.

Afleet Alex was obviously much the best in this race, and Jeremy Rose did a hell of a job. He didn't miss a single beat. Awesome.

Drumbiggle
May. 21, 2005, 04:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CuriosoJorge:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I am well aware that Scrappy T did not interfere with Giacomo. However, the horse and the jockey should be held accountable for his behavior. Whether you believe that the jockey could control what happened or not, that is the jockey's job! This is not the first time the horse has done this, so apparently the connections need to be sent a message that the horse needs reschooling. This is why I believe the horse should have been disqualified. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Give us a precedent where a horse and jockey were disqualified for doing something that did not affect the outcome of the race.

Jockeys get warned, fined, suspended for dangerous riding, but I've never heard of a horse being disqualified when they haven't interefered with the outcome of the race.

Jo
May. 21, 2005, 04:15 PM
TFJ... The announcers said that this is not the first time Scrappy T has blown out around the turn. If you KNEW your horse had a history of that, why the HECK would you whip him with your left hand???

I admit, I know nothing about being a jockey but I always use my stick in a way that will help my ride, not add to an already existing problem. But maybe that's just hunters... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Bugs-n-Frodo
May. 21, 2005, 04:19 PM
I won't quibble over disqualifications, or anything of the sort. Alex ran a HECK of a race, is a superb athlete and has earned my respect in more ways than one. He is the epitome of what it is to be a TB, what a heart on that colt. Amazing!

On a side note, Alex was my pick to win (I did not bet, my family and I just name our 3 picks), my other two picks were Giacomo and Scrappy T (though I did not place those two in a certain order). I wanted Alex to win. What a horse... I loved him on Derby day, story or no story, and I love him now. Just... what a horse...

Sonesta
May. 21, 2005, 04:21 PM
Let me clarify what I meant. IF Scrappy T's jockey had not looked back WHEN Afleet Alex almost fell, he MIGHT have been able to maintain enough pace to win. Of course, if that had happened, he MIGHT have gotten set back for interference.

I completely agree that if Afleet Alex had not tripped, he'd have blown past Scrappy T.

foundationmare
May. 21, 2005, 04:22 PM
Ditto Jo,

Using a left-handed whip on the turn was not wise...especially while ON THE TURN! I'm glad that nobody went down in a heap, but tragedy was only marginally averted. Yes, the jock should have known what would happen went he went to a left-handed whip.

Regardless, considering everything that happened, there's no doubt that AA would have won by a pole if he hadn't been so clearly, shall we say?, challenged.

I'm still wired about this....the local racetrackers are abuzz and I'm pretty sure that we witnessed a historical race that will be talked about for a long, long time.

Galileo1998
May. 21, 2005, 04:28 PM
I don't remember Scrappy blowing a turn like that in the Withers, I remember him being a bit "looky" but nothing about any of his previous races would indicate that if you hit him left handed he was going to run 1/2 way across the track to the left. The horse completely overreacted. Horses do that sometimes.

Whips get used left handed in turns all the time. Watch a replay of the Preakness, and count how many of the jockeys are using left handed whips. Watch a replay of the Kentucky Derby and watch Mike Smith on Giacomo. Left handed whip, around the turn and down the stretch.

Showpony
May. 21, 2005, 04:40 PM
Afleet Alex's jockey said himself in an interview that what happened wasn't the jockeys fault (on Scrappy T).

And Scrappy T's jockey said it was unintentional, that his horse overreacted.

That's horse racing! Scrappy T should not have been disqualified in any way. And the ONLY way AA was not going to win, is if he had actually fallen down.

Afleet Alex was amazing the way he picked himself up and dug in. What an act of heart, courage, and determination!

MyArgie
May. 21, 2005, 04:41 PM
yeah, scrappy's spin out was rough, but he shouldn't be disqualified or placed 3rd. Now if it had ended with Alex in second, I would advocate the stewards' change of placings. But seeing as the only horse effected was Alex and he still won, no fault to scrappy.

since when is it the steward's job to send messages about a horse's experience or need of "reschooling"? Messages on drugs, and jockey behavior yes, but on a HORSE, no way... The trainer and owner will have plenty message knowing that in that event someone could have been killed.

foundationmare
May. 21, 2005, 04:59 PM
I don't think that the jock's move was intentional at all. I understand that racing is a crap-shoot and there are never guarantees. Trust me....I know that!

I was rooting for Scrappy because of the COTH connection. I thought he had a good shot and our major owner (who happens to be a big-time handicapper and bettor) used Scrappy every which-way. He called us before the race and told us that, if Scrappy won, book plane tickets and we'd party! Get my point????

I'm sure his connections are agonizing over the events of the day: he's a legitimate contender and they should be ecstatic about the race he ran today. Nothing...nothing....that happened takes away from the strength of the horse. Yeah....#@%^ happens. It's unfortunate that Scrappy reacted so badly to the whip. I still think that it was a bad move in Dominguez' part.

We could spar for a while about this but my overwhelming feeling is that AA is a really, really special horse. A thoroughbred can have breeding and ability up the whazoo, but if they don't have heart....game's over. AA has the heart of a giant.

CuriosoJorge
May. 21, 2005, 05:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Fjord Jockey:
CJ= I am curious as to how someone can form so strong an opinion without actually knowing what they are talking about (as it's clear that you do not). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Opinions are like assholes; everyone has one. It's really no skin off my nose if you don't care for mine, but you should be careful telling people that they don't know what they're talking about.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MyArgie:
since when is it the steward's job to send messages about a horse's experience or need of "reschooling"? Messages on drugs, and jockey behavior yes, but on a HORSE, no way... The trainer and owner will have plenty message knowing that in that event someone could have been killed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that safety was a major concern for the stewards. Precisely because a horse or a human, or both, could have been killed because of Scrappy T's actions, I think a stronger message would have been appropriate. I am clearly in the minority. If this were a MSW and an inexperienced horse, I would not be so quick to judge.

kristimcg
May. 21, 2005, 05:30 PM
Galileo1998...you are definately right. Scrappy T didn't blow the turn in the Withers at all. He did run green down the lane, but that's not the same. Ramon had no way to know that he would blow the turn when he hit him. Like it's been said, others were hitting left handed too.
I agree with the others, in NO WAY should Scrappy have been disqualified. It was not intentional or dangerous riding (and he only hit him once, not multiple times). He ran a great race overall and unfortunatley had one bad overreaction to the whip. It could have happened to any horse. Thank goodness no one was hurt. That's the only thing that really matters. AA ran an incredible race that will be talked about for a long time to come, but Scrappy deserves all the recognition that he has earned too. That was a big step up for him and he proved that he really is a good horse.
Congrats to all involved with him. You've all done a great job and have nothing to feel bad about. Enjoy your success!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Spurt
May. 21, 2005, 05:51 PM
Scrappy T's jock was at fault. You don't hit a horse left handed coming out of the point of the turn..horses drift naturally towards the outside, he should have hit him right handed. I think the jock got overly excited and didn't use his brain. He moved early, trying to get a jump start on Alex, who would have won no matter what because he had more left.
Afleet Alex, ran a heck of a race. Jeremy should be glad he didn't fall otherwise he would have got dragged with his feet being so far in the stirrups. Now every sore sucker will be training 5 miles a day.
Giacomo, didn't look like he handled the track as well. Looked like he was climbing in the first turn, got too far out of it and didn't have the big kick. Ran a great race and Mike did a heck of a job playing it safe with him. I look for more positive things to come from him.

Scrappy T was my pick along with Alex. I watched on tv T galloping, he by far went the most sound out of all of them. Alex is short strided and stiff when he trains(watched him all meet at oaklawn and then at churchill) might be a special reason he has to jog three miles before he gallops. I hope they give him a break, he had a tough 2 year old season, and now three year old season and I would like to see him have a 4 year old season.

PhillyFilly
May. 21, 2005, 06:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mcm7780:
CSS -- Visa pulled out?!? I missed that part... WOW!!! That stinks! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They didn't "pull out" they had a contract (10 years i believe) and this is the last year.

Anywhere*but*here
May. 21, 2005, 06:21 PM
C'mon people. We can sit here all day and argue about who to blame, or we can just be glad that nobody was seriously injured (or worse). Nobody can deny it was an AWESOME race! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

poltroon
May. 21, 2005, 06:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by foundationmare:
Ditto Jo,

Using a left-handed whip on the turn was not wise...especially while ON THE TURN! I'm glad that nobody went down in a heap, but tragedy was only marginally averted. Yes, the jock should have known what would happen went he went to a left-handed whip.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I bet he switched his whip over in prep for the stretch drive so that he wouldn't be in danger of hitting Alex with it - who he knew was coming up on the outside, and fast.

mcm7780
May. 21, 2005, 06:23 PM
PhillyFilly -- Oh!!! Thanks for the clarification! But it will still stink if we don't have a Triple Crown anymore...I'd like to see someone win it in my lifetime!

MyArgie
May. 21, 2005, 06:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that safety was a major concern for the stewards. Precisely because a horse or a human, or both, could have been killed because of Scrappy T's actions, I think a stronger message would have been appropriate. I am clearly in the minority. If this were a MSW and an inexperienced horse, I would not be so quick to judge. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, safety is the steward's concern, but their discretion can only be excersized within the rules of the racetrack. Scrappy's mess was not a break of any rules. It was not intentional on the jockey's part to send the horse flying SIDEWAYS. Again, I maintain that if the stewards stepped in it would be ruling about the training of a horse's readiness, not in their scope.

While I think Alex was the clear winner, run in or not, Scrappy did run a darn good race hiself. The people who work with him should be proud, he put in a great effort.

DMK
May. 21, 2005, 06:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Galileo1998:
That may be your opinion, but unless your opinion has any influence on the rules of racing worldwide the result standing shouldn't be a shock. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

*snork*

Sonesta, bless Scrappy's heart he ran a hell of a race, and I am sure his jock and connections are sorry he blew wide in that turn, but to compare the pace loss of a jockey looking back versus the pace lost with a near roll? I'm thinkin' the only way scrappy could have crossed the finish line first was if AA had rolled rather than picked himself up and dusted on by.

xegeba
May. 21, 2005, 06:32 PM
Racing dumbASP here... can someone tell me how fast AA was going when that stumble occured?

LoriO
May. 21, 2005, 06:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mcm7780:
PhillyFilly -- Oh!!! Thanks for the clarification! But it will still stink if we don't have a Triple Crown anymore...I'd like to see someone win it in my lifetime! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

mcm7780, The Triple Crown has been around for many many years (way before Visa started sponsering it with the added bonus). As long as those three races are run, there will always be a Triple Crown!

Drumbiggle
May. 21, 2005, 07:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CuriosoJorge:

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that safety was a major concern for the stewards. Precisely because a horse or a human, or both, could have been killed because of Scrappy T's actions, I think a stronger message would have been appropriate. I am clearly in the minority. If this were a MSW and an inexperienced horse, I would not be so quick to judge. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A Jockey can be warned, fined, suspended or outright banned for dangerous riding.
But a horse can NOT be disqualified for actions that didn't affect the result.

If you know of a precedent where what you're saying has happened, or a rule that allows the stewards to do what you suggest, then let us know, but I can't remember ever seeing it happen anywhere, not just stateside.



.

Drumbiggle
May. 21, 2005, 07:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xegeba:
Racing dumbASP here... can someone tell me how fast AA was going when that stumble occured? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Around 35mph or so.

Night of Songs
May. 21, 2005, 07:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by poltroon:

I bet he switched his whip over in prep for the stretch drive so that he wouldn't be in danger of hitting Alex with it - who he knew was coming up on the outside, and fast. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Poltroon for this observation. I had not considered this but rewatching the run I think you are right. Other jocks do hit left on the turns, so in itself that is not unusual.

Scrappy T was definitely startled by the whip. Perhaps being in the lead he lost some drive and concentration...they are still babies...

Thank God all are alright! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Phenomenal finish by Afleet Alex. No doubt who was the best horse today!

royal1
May. 21, 2005, 08:09 PM
Scrappy T is a very good race horse, but no way could he have beaten Afleet Alex!! That horse is INCREDIBLE!!!! God I was soo scared when he went down on his knees!!! Go ALEX!

Linny
May. 21, 2005, 08:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CuriosoJorge:
Scrappy T should have been set down below Giacomo, or diaqualified altogether. That was blatant interference. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A horse who is set down can only be place behind the horse he interferes with. Giacomo was not involved. Had Scrappy won, he'd likely have been dq'd but as it was, the horse he interfered with beat him anyhow so rightly no action was taken.
The stewards CAN take action against Dominguez, and maybe they should. He went to the whip with a HARD LEFT and sent Scrappy reeling away from the stick. At the top of the lane, most horses are likely to bear out some anyhow, so IMO it was careless of him. The fact is that there is no jurisdiction that I know of that can arbitralily place a horse behind a horse he didn't interfere with.
Every race is reviewed by the stewards and the Preakness id no different. Dominquez may be fined or set down for his ride but there is no reason to penalize the horse and his connections when no horse finishing behind him was effected by the action of the jock.

mcm7780
May. 21, 2005, 08:23 PM
LoriO -- I the Triple Crown has been around for a long time...: ) Did it still get as much attention before Visa offered the prize? I mean, I know the races themselves have always been huge, but did the media pick it up more when the $$$ was offered? (Nice aside, my old TB was related to a bunch of horses that raced in these three races...some of them won 2 of the 3! Made me feel like I had a cool horse!)

MyArgie
May. 21, 2005, 08:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">mcm7780, The Triple Crown has been around for many many years (way before Visa started sponsering it with the added bonus). As long as those three races are run, there will always be a Triple Crown! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

with all this talk about "moving" the preakness, who knows. i mean the filly's triple tiara is no longer... (last i knew) horse racing is really in need of SEVERAL stars to boost the industry, create rivalrys..etc. we need 2 great horses to duel, not just one http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Albion
May. 21, 2005, 08:33 PM
Of course the Triple Crown has always been a big deal - Secretariat was on the cover of Time magazine, for heaven's sakes, and many of the old greats are legends in their own right among people who know nothing about horses or racing. I have many, many friends who are neither horse people nor avid racing fans, and they know Secretariat, Seattle Slew, etc.

The Triple Crown has ALWAYS been a huge event, even before the days of ESPN and TGV. The $5 million dollar bonus merely sweetened the pot - just like all those other bonuses that are offered for winning X, Y, and Z races together.

mcm7780
May. 21, 2005, 09:11 PM
Albion -- Rememeber, some of us here were born after Secretariat won. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif I've always known it was a big thing, but most my un-horse friends don't know what it is -- I had to explain it to my roommate today. So I didn't know if maybe it was a big thing among the horse world and then it got bigger once Visa added the bonus -- like Jeapordy, it's always been popular but it became a lot more popular once Ken Jennings started winning soooo much more than most winners!

oatbag
May. 21, 2005, 10:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mcm7780:
like Jeapordy, it's always been popular but it became a lot more popular once Ken Jennings started winning soooo much more than most winners! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

After seeing the inspired win by Alfeet Alex today, my advice to Ken Jennings would be to jog five miles every day before the Tournament of Champions begins. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

haligator
May. 21, 2005, 10:40 PM
Hi All,
I'll be honest - this is the first time I've seen the racing board get testy and I'm a bit disappointed. This board has always been a safe haven away from some of the other boards. But, even though people have gotten testy, no one has gotten overtly nasty and I thank you all for that. We're all allowed to get testy from time to time http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The racing rules are the rules and they are enforced nationally in 99% of all cases. Scrappy T did not interfere with any other horse but Afleet Alex, and hence his second place finish stands. This is how it is done in this sport.

If Ramon had purposefully tried to 'take out' AA, that would be a different story. It is not for the stewards to punish the horse's owners (in this case Scrappy T) for an act of unpredicted horse drifting. The stewards in this sport do not punish the owners for random acts of horses (and we all know that horses sometimes do some interesting things....) UNLESS the jockey purposely did something horrible. I do not believe for ONE MINUTE that this is the case here. (I mean, this is not the 1980 Preakness where there was a real question of whether Angel Cordero on Codex purposefully took Genuine Risk and Jacinto Vasquez wide on the final turn and possibly slashed GR in the face....when I interviewed Jacinto for the book about Genuine Risk a few years ago the whole incident still angered him).

No matter what your thoughts are on what happened, please understand these are the rules of this sport. You may not like these rules, but this system has been tested over and over again and it works in this sport. I can not begin to imagine the mess that would ensue if every steward at every track tried to enforce an unrealistic placing of a horse that interfered with one other horse but no others to 'punish' the jockey. The lawsuits from the owners would be immediate and swift. Jockeys can be disciplined for rough or careless riding, but that should not affect the owners and the legitimate placement of the horse in regard to horses it DID NOT interfere with.

As it was, Ramon looked back twice as the interference was happening. He looked over his right shoulder and his left shoulder. He probably did this to see if the oncoming horse and jockey were okay and to see which way he should try to direct his horse at that point so as to not cause further problems. NO jockey ever wants to be the cause of another horse and rider coming down - they are part of a brotherhood. Jockeys may not always like one another, but they are not going to risk severely hurting another horse or jockey OR their own horse.

Once he was away from AA, it seemed Ramon backed off and just let Scrappy T gallop to the finish without overly pushing Scrappy. I feel for him because I'm sure he is upset by what happened, and I'm also sure he was disappointed that he could not deliver a win for the owners.

Having galloped a few horses that have drifted suddenly, and earned some real estate when they drifted, sometimes racehorses drift. It is a fact (it's also why I breed and own now rather than gallop http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ). And it is a helpless feeling when it is happening to you. Everyone likes to think that jockeys have each horse under complete control at all times, but sometimes a horse just does SOMETHING. They prop, they runaway, and yes, they sometimes drift. You just can’t always keep them in ‘their’ lane. And, although Scrappy may have displayed some fussy running behavior in the past, that behavior was not in ANY way like what happened today, and to infer that he should have been schooled better is a bit ridiculous. The trainer is a fine horseman, and he has have worked and trained Scrappy in a meticulous way. Today was indeed a full scale drift but I don't see that behavior in his past charts (please correct me if he has ever done a drift like this before).

As far as the controversy about Ramon hitting the horse left handed, I'm not going to comment directly because I don't know how Scrappy T likes to be ridden. Some horses can not be hit on one side or the other due to their own idiosyncrasies.

No matter what, I'm glad that this incident did not end in tragedy. It could have be a horrible, horrible wreck. I respect both Jeremy Rose (isn't he the cutest thing?) and yes, Ramon, for the way the situation turned out.

But, most of all, CONGRATULATIONS EMILY and all the connections of Scrappy T. I know this must be bittersweet for all of you, but your hard work and love of Scrappy is an inspiration. You have sacrificed countless hours, moved between Maryland, Delaware, and New York, and stayed hopeful and positive through the whole experience. You have been so hopeful, and you love Scrappy with a passion so fierce that I know at times it has brought tears to your eyes. Please remember, your boy ran second in the Preakness! What a ride it has been for you!

And, please, folks, realize that Emily is one of us and is probably having a night filled of thoughts of what might have been, and feeling a bit sad that the race went the way it did. BE KIND and understand no one in Scrappy T's camp wanted this to happen. EVERYONE wanted a clean race.

Emily, to slightly misquote another Emily (Bronte in this case), no coward soul is yours. Hold your head high and continue to enjoy the ride Scrappy is giving you.

Hallie McEvoy
Racing Dreams, LLC

LoriO
May. 22, 2005, 02:40 AM
Well said Hallie!

Congrats to Emily and the rest of the Scrappy T team for accomplishing what many other just dream of....of just haveing a horse good enought to run in one of the Triple Crown races!

furlong47
May. 22, 2005, 04:56 AM
There will still be a Triple Crown... it existed long before the Visa Bonus and will exist long after. There just won't be a $5 million bonus for a horse that wins all three races. The prestige will still be there and no one can take that away.

whitehorse
May. 22, 2005, 05:36 AM
I won the trifecta!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Been betting here and there for decades and never won so much. Put Scrappy in there because of this board, so 'thank you' to the Scrappy supporters! And congrats!

I nearly had a heart attack on that last turn. Wow, Alex really won my heart, what a horse. Looked to me that it wasn't really the whip with Scrappy, but that he was looking at the infield and spooked/bolted. Well, anyway, what a race!!!

royal1
May. 22, 2005, 05:49 AM
OMG!!! that is great White horse!!! Ididn't bet because I thought that I "jinxed" the derby outcome by doing so..lol. my picks were 1. Bellamy road, 2. afleet alex and 3 high limit in a box..lol..but I did pick Afleet Alex to win this one in my mind, and I did scream for Scrappy T while watching the race (because of Coth connections to his "family") Well congrats that is so great for you!!

Tory Relic
May. 22, 2005, 06:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mcm7780:
Did it still get as much attention before Visa offered the prize? I mean, I know the races themselves have always been huge, but did the media pick it up more when the $$$ was offered? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh lord, yes. There hasn't been a Triple Crown winner since Visa started their sponsorship. The 70s were the heyday of the TC races, more winners in that decade than any other, if memory serves. I'm sure if Visa doesn't renew the contract, someone else will step up to it. It's incredible exposure for the company. Even so, I do appreciate that they have been willing to support racing as they have during their contract period. I don't even mind (so much) that they have commercials every five minutes during the telecast. If anyone watched ESPN's special before the race, they'd have heard that network's regret that THEY weren't showing the races. All that Visa money buying airtime...

Prism
May. 22, 2005, 06:44 AM
From the replay, it looks like Scrappy T ducked out when the left hand whip made him switch leads. He is on the left lead around the turn, gets hit, switches to right lead, and spins to the right. However, there is an AP picture in our local paper taken from the outside that shows a big drain with an open end inside the rail. I wonder if that could have contributed, if Scrappy T spooked at it? (I speak as one who owned a horse who felt that big drains contained horse-eating trolls.) Anyone else see this picture?

Alex ran an incredible race, and probably would have won by a country mile without the interference. How game, getting up off his knees and soldiering on!

Sing Mia Song
May. 22, 2005, 07:21 AM
Well said, Halligator. Now, let me through in my own two cents http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

There's plenty of strategy in race riding. I swear the best jockeys have eyes in the back of their heads.

It's common practice to "use" your horse to intimidate another. This is why you see 2 horses engaged in a stretch duel appear to be running in the same path. They are close to each other because each jockey hopes his horse will intimidate the other, and that it will spark his own horse to dig in.

It's also practice to close off holes that an advancing horse could come through, and to carry a horse wide on the turn.

I believe that Ramon knew Afleet Alex was coming up on the outside, and he hit Scrappy T left handed to carry him slightly into Alex's path. He certainly had no idea that Scrappy was going to react as strongly as he did. Keep in mind that Ramon had never ridden Scrappy before the Preakness (he might have worked him, but never rode him in a race), and even though the horse had a history of running greenly, he had never responded to the whip like that before. Of course the trainer knew Scrappy had a tendency to weave a little, that's why the horse has run in blinkers in every single start.

Ramon also knew that even if he set Scrappy down in a stretch duel and prevailed, he'd be taken down. So, from that point on, he was running for second. You'll notice in the replay that he pretty much wrapped up on Scrappy after the incident.

Ramon and Jeremy Rose ride in the same Delaware/Maryland colony. I don't know if they're friends, but they're certainly daily colleagues.

Scrappy did run a hell of a race, and Emily should be very proud of him. For me, Alex occupies another sphere now. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif That was bloody amazing.

Glimmerglass
May. 22, 2005, 07:40 AM
A pretty amazing race that did make me money http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kudos to Scrappy T and all of his connections (Emily, et al) for getting him there. I for one was annoyed at the zero coverage of the rest of the field in the prelude to the race - I mean Scrappy came in with a good G3 win, raced against many of these G1 horses before and never finished out of the money. That should've been worthy of a dark horse angle http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As for the amazing recovery by AA I very much tip my hat to him. Not since 1987's running of the Derby with Alysheba getting clipped by Bet Twice (http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2005/derby_history/derby_charts/years/1987.html) have I seen a horse almost go to their knees but rally back. (Wtach the 1987 race replay off the link)

I am glad that Giacomo came in 3rd - it was an honest, solid position as he hit traffic and couldn't have done much better. Hopefully it will shut up a lot of the columnist and pundits who know &*$@ about racing.

As for Afleet Alex wining by more then 5-lengths had the incident not occurred I disagree. If Scrappy T hadn't bowed out and kept his line he was in perfect position to continue going with speed to the finish himself. The pictures clearly show he was cranked hard with his head to the rail himself and his jock backed off bigtime from going to the whip for the close.

In an honest race I think it still would've been about 5-lengths - nothing more.

I hope that Charlie Mann took some good pics of the race http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The photo: Reuters Photo of the almost tragic collision (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050522/ids_photos_wl/r3513766555.jpg)

Albion
May. 22, 2005, 08:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Albion -- Rememeber, some of us here were born after Secretariat won. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, I was born in 1983 - several years after Secretariat won the Triple Crown. All of my friends I was talking about were born after Secretariat, or right around then - and were in diapers when he DID win. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The old winners are big sports names in their own right, even among the public that isn't into racing or horses - just like I'm familiar with some famous names from other sports that I don't follow or watch. It's ALWAYS been a big, big deal - Visa sponsorship or no.

whitehorse
May. 22, 2005, 08:46 AM
Royal, I had Bellamy in the Derby, too, I really thought he was the next superhorse. But then I'm always expecting the third coming of Man 'o War/Secretariat, lol I've sat out many a bet for fear of jinxing things too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Interesting about the drain, I guess the only people who really know are the jockey or people that know Scrappy. It'd be great to hear their thoughts on that.

Also glad that Giacomo was somewhat vindicated, I think Mike Smith is just awesome, and lost money on Holy Bull back in the day lol.

Linny
May. 22, 2005, 09:14 AM
IMO, if Ramon had wanted to force Alex to change path he'd have allowed his momentum to cause him to drift out. He made the turn with Scrappy's nose turned IN. I think he was trying to shake him up for the uncoming challenge from Alex and got far more than he expected.

I hope we hear from Em. We all have our opinions on what happened, I'd like to hear hers. I've watched the replay about 10 times this morning and have not changed my mind about what I saw. I'd like to know what the connections were thinking as they watched the race and how they felt after speaking with Ramon.

Jessi P
May. 22, 2005, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sing Mia Song:
I believe that Ramon knew Afleet Alex was coming up on the outside, and he hit Scrappy T left handed to carry him slightly into Alex's path. He certainly had no idea that Scrappy was going to react as strongly as he did. Keep in mind that Ramon had never ridden Scrappy before the Preakness (he might have worked him, but never rode him in a race), and even though the horse had a history of running greenly, he had never responded to the whip like that before. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto that. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I said exact same thing to Darren last night. And he said Ramon D is known for being one of the hardest hitting jockeys riding now. It is possible that they chose Ramon D for Scrappy knowing that he has a reputation for being able to hit a horse hard and felt that he would be able to improve Scrappy's greenness/erraticness?

mcm7780
May. 22, 2005, 11:06 AM
Albion -- The comment about your friends being in diapers gave me a nice visual image -- little kids in diapers trying to act like jockeys! Could be cute! I was mistaken and thought that Visa had always sponsered the Triple Crown...guess that shows you what marketing can do! I didn't realize they only had a contract to sponser the extra money for a winner for a few years. I wish my friends knew who the old winners were -- none of them do! I have a picture of me on the statue of Secretariat at the Kentucky Horse Park and no one knew who the horse was even after I tried to explain! (And yes, I know I was naughty to climb onto the statue, but my dad was the one who gave me a leg up and he should have been a better influence on me!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Glimmerglass
May. 22, 2005, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mcm7780:
I was mistaken and thought that Visa had always sponsered the Triple Crown...guess that shows you what marketing can do! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Visa started the bonus of $5M first in 1996 and announced in March 2005 that this would be the last year of their bonus offer. (Visa of course did the offering via an insurance policy) During that time six horses won the Ky Derby and Preakness. Visa will remain in horse racing by being a major sponsor of the Kentucky Derby in 2006.

It was a brilliant marketing move for them which yielded great press and didn't cost them much for the efforts. I hope some other financial firm can step up and offer the same incentive.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mcm7780:
I have a picture of me on the statue of Secretariat at the Kentucky Horse Park and no one knew who the horse was even after I tried to explain! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, unless you just did the climbing in late 2004 you must be talking about the original "Big Red" - Man O'War http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The large Hazeltine sculpted statue has been there since 1977 above his relocated grave.

Secretariat only received a bronze - as depicted with Ron Turcotte up - at the Horse Park in November 2004.

SeaOat
May. 22, 2005, 05:32 PM
Prism:
Yes... I also thought it looked like he was still on his left when first sticked (I was inside, top of stretch on a 12ft perch) but not seen a replay yet. We had a side view and I made quick glance from big-screen to live as it happened just in front of us. Not sure if pieced together accurately but initial thought/mental image was that. Really thought one of them broke down for that split second and was sickened. Totally stunned when Alex up & blew by. Totally relieved both OK.
I believe this was RD's first race on the gelding (?)....maybe not aware he couldn't brand his butt, like some who need a hard stick when they start looking/lagging when up front; whatever the reason it's all OBE now.
Haven't seen a recovery like Afleet's since Alysheba's Derby win. Quite athletic buggers.
Saw most of yesterday's big horses in stalls being horses this AM & everybody human on to next subject by noon..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

mcm7780
May. 22, 2005, 06:13 PM
Glimmerglass -- Doesn't the one of Man O'War have a moat (or flowers or something) around it? I took the picture in...gosh, I think it was 1995. I always thought it was Secretariat but I guess I'm wrong! (Won't be the first or last time...dammit!) Right now I am looking on-line and trying to find out who I sat on!!! *L*

JER
May. 22, 2005, 06:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Jockeys may not always like one another, but they are not going to risk severely hurting another horse or jockey OR their own horse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless your name was Eddie Arcaro. Asked at a steward's hearing to explain his behavior when he tried to knock a fellow jockey off his horse during a race, Arcaro said "I was trying to kill the SOB."

He was suspended for a year or so.

mcm7780
May. 22, 2005, 06:29 PM
Glimmer -- Okay, so I've been to a gazillon sites but can't find the name of the horse. So, do you know who this (http://www.auburn.edu/~gallimh/statue.jpg) is? I feel like such a geek!!! With my luck, this will be a QH or something (since I've always thought it was Secretariat).

furlong47
May. 22, 2005, 09:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mcm7780:
Glimmer -- Okay, so I've been to a gazillon sites but can't find the name of the horse. So, do you know who this (http://www.auburn.edu/~gallimh/statue.jpg) is? I feel like such a geek!!! With my luck, this will be a QH or something (since I've always thought it was Secretariat). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That very well could be Secretariat... there are TWO statues of him in the KHP. The newer one of him racing, and another older statue (which I think is the one in your picture.) It's definately not the Man O' War statue as that is surrounded by flowers and also the front legs on it are not square.

SmlHpy1
May. 23, 2005, 06:46 AM
I just wanna add my two cents here. I'm not sure if AA would have beat Scrappy if the incident didn't happen. I think if Scrappy had stayed on the original path it would have been VERY close. Also, I talked to a friend that trains race horses. I asked her why he didn't hit him right handed. She said he couldn't do that because of AA coming up on the right. That would be an interference with AA. *shrug* Also, I disagree with anyone that says Scrappy should have been brought down off of 2nd place because of this. When you only interfere with the winner, there are no grounds to do this. Geesh - had that not happened what a close race it would have been. Scrappy is AWESOME!!!!!

17handtb
May. 23, 2005, 08:51 AM
That was an unbelievable race. My heart is still in my throat thinking about it!

And speaking of heart...Afleet Alex has it in spades. I've loved that horse since he was a 2-year-old and my admiration and respect for him grows and grows. He's the real deal, the perfect racehorse: talent, courage, athleticism and above all – as game as the day is long. He is the epitome of why I love Thoroughbreds.

Scrappy T ran a fantastic race (well, up until his “incident,” anyway) and I hope his connections are extremely proud of him. He showed up in a way that many of the big-name horses with glitzy connections did not.

That said, no way Scrappy was going to beat Alex as long as Alex stayed upright. Alex was on the move and Scrappy was running for second regardless.

I also have to eat some crow and say Giacomo really impressed me in the Preakness. I was one of the many who saw his Derby as a fluke, though I was very happy for his deserving trainer and jockey. He showed he is a legitimate Classics contender and then some. (and I was really impressed by the announcement on the telecast that Giacomo has actually GAINED weight since winning the Derby! Talk about an easy keeper.)

goobs
May. 23, 2005, 09:02 AM
It was a great race and in the end it came down to 2 great horses. This incident proved how tough AA can be. He certainly looked pissed and determined after he recovered and that little edge propped him into another gear. That horse is certainly athletic (as JR even stated) and saved his butt. A truly talented animal who was given a great, no brilliant, ride by JR. For a horse to lose those few precious seconds stumbling almost to his chest, recover and then shoot out like a bullet, shows how much heart AA has!

On the replay I noticed that when Scrappy's jockey looked way over his right hand shoulder his left hand pulled Scrappy to the left. The rein was wide and opening. Certainly, IMO, nothing was intentional but let's hope it was taken as a learning experience for all.

cmannphoto
May. 23, 2005, 09:17 AM
Let me first say that this might be a bias opinion on my part, but let’s give credit where credit is due. Scrappy T ran on hell of a race for a horse that was barely talked about or even given credit for beating Giacomo and the rest of the field by 5 lengths in the end.

Because of my connections to Scrappy T, I was concentrating on him the entire race. At the start he broke clean and was leading around the 1/16th pole as Going Wild and High Limit came up and passed him at the start finish line. As they went into the first turn Scrappy T was sitting in third behind High Limit and Going Wild. They stayed that way until the ½ pole. There as the announcer said “…High limit with a short lead , Going Wild, Scrappy T under a long hold right there right in behind the leader running third with a ½ mile to go” just then Scrappy started his move on High Limit who was on the inside and was second. As they went into the turn the TV announcer was concentrating of the favorites back in the pack. Closing Argument trying to pick his way through horses, Greenley’s Galaxy gaining ground their with a big move to the rail, Afleet Alex bottled up on the inside, Sun King and then Giacomo has a lot to do with 3 furlongs to do it he is 10 lengths behind and caught in some traffic now.

“And Scrappy T comes away with the lead!!!” Nobody mentioned the move that Scrappy T was making at that point.

Then all hell breaks loose as Ramon “The Windmill” Dominguez hits Scrappy T with a left handed whip. As Ramon said in his interview, it was to make sure Scrappy T was awake and not getting lazy heading into the stretch. This as we all know sent Scrappy T’s hind end out to his right into Afleet Alex. I give Afleet Alex and Jeremy Rose a lot of credit for their athleticism in regaining their composure and averting a tragedy. Yes, this makes Afleet Alex’s win even that more impressive, yet nobody is giving credit to Scrappy T for finishing second, 5 lengths in front of Giacomo and the rest of the field.

If you watch the rest of the race you will see Afleet Alex being whipped to the finish line. At the 1/16th pole Ramon (my image 5pkn1203 on my web site) (http://www.cmannphoto.com/Photoshop%20pages/2005Preakness/pages/5pks1203.htm) looks through his legs and stops whipping Scrappy T and coast home, whereas the Giacomo and the others are whipping all the way. Don’t forget that Scrappy T lost some momentum in the incident also, yet he finished second by only 4-3/4 lengths and 5 lengths in front of the rest of the field. Not bad for another long shot. Who now is not getting any respect from the media.

I can see the opening of the Belmont coverage now, Scrappy T will be mentioned but only as the horse that almost caused the favorite Afleet Alex to fall during the Preakness. We will see that reply over and over again, but no mention of the fact that another long shot almost upset the favorite in the second Triple Crown race.

There are a lot of “what ifs” out there, as someone said on this thread that Afleet Alex might have won by 10 lengths. But what if Scrappy T had not crossed Afleet Alex and made it a horse race to the finish and Scrappy T won. What if, one or both of them went down and there was a pile up and a lot of jockeys and horses got hurt. But all that did not happen. What happened, happened and we can not change that. Yes, Afleet Alex showed some great ability as did Jeremy Rose and I congratulate them on one hell of a ride. I am glade that both horses and riders came out of uninjured, knowing Emily that was her first concern, not just for Scrappy T, but for Afleet Alex as well, as she watched both horses in the test barn.

As that very long day drew to a close, Emily and I sat on the grass outside of Scrappy T’s stall watching him act up for everybody as they walked by. I told her that I was proud of her and all her hard work that she has put into him and the other horses in the barn. And that Scrappy T would be remembered for a long time. Not the way they the connections would like but as the horse that made the finish of the 130th Preakness a thriller.

Scrappy T will not even be known as another long shot that did very well over some the best horses.

Thanks to all the Scrappy T supporters out there. I know Emily appreciates all your support and comments.

I know I made one guy happy sitting behind me at the races. As I was leaving he was at the IRS window cashing his tickets and I know he bet on Scrappy T.

Charlie Mann
www.cmannphoto.com (http://www.cmannphoto.com)

texang73
May. 23, 2005, 10:26 AM
Well said, Charlie. I think it was a hell of a race, and Scrappy T really stepped up and ran beautifully, despite the almost collision. I look forward to watching his progress in the future.

accidental buckaroo
May. 23, 2005, 10:47 AM
Well here is my question:
I was told that Scrappy T has done same thing in another race. If true, is that not something to be aware of by jockey riding Scrappy?

Not trying to be inflammatory by any means with this comment/question.

ALso, never again will I listen to someone sitting next to me despite the number of good sized tickts they are cashing.

I had been doing pretty ok with ex wheels and had Alex with two others on top and Scrappy with two others on bottom. My sister said ask that guy, and bugged and bugged so I finally did.
He said I am doing 7/all and all/7 (Closing argument). Told me my bet was not wise!!! And I listened to him. And he got up from chair at last minute and bet my bet. Never again.

When I watch the replay of that race I just get sick over what could have happened. Thank God, everbody came home safely.

AB

Windsor
May. 23, 2005, 12:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
Secretariat only received a bronze - as depicted with Ron Turcotte up - at the Horse Park in November 2004. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I just did a little research on this because I distinctly remembered a photo of a Secretariat statue at the end of the Ray Woolfe book Secretariat. I was thinking that it was at Claiborne but wherever it is, Woolfe describes the scene at the unveiling ceremony, and how Penny Tweedy wiped a tear from her cheek as she walked up and kissed the statue on the nose. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

I believe the statue in my book may be the same as this one, which indeed "lived" at KHP until it was replaced with the newer statue:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://mishappa.image.pbase.com/u36/kkenison/small/32225934.secretariat104.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www4.pbase.com/kkenison/infrared%26page%3D3&h=132&w=160&sz=7&tbnid=8chX8lL-ob8J:&tbnh=75&tbnw=91&hl=en&start=28&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSecretariat%2Bstatue%26start%3D20%26h l%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

MCM7780--Does that look like something you've ridden before? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

See the final few paragraphs of this article.

http://www.kypost.com/2004/07/19/racing07-19-2004.html

I was a little luckier than the woman mentioned at the beginning of this article. She wrote to Claiborne and got a photo. When I wrote, I got a lock of mane from Big Red himself. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Sadly, I never got to see him.

Linny
May. 23, 2005, 01:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by accidental buckaroo:
Well here is my question:
I was told that Scrappy T has done same thing in another race. If true, is that not something to be aware of by jockey riding Scrappy?

AB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was mentioned on the coverage that he has "drifted" before and its untrue. He has has trouble with leads late. He hasn't had the tendency to bear out (last year, Lion Heart did!) and he certainly never bolted before. The fact is Tom Durkin missed Scrappy's bolt. He said twice that Scrappy "blew the turn." At the moment that it happened, Durkin was focused on Alex spurting out into the clear from behind Greeley. He didn't see the "whack" and by the time he refocused on Scrappy, he and AA were crashing. I watched the Pimlico feed this morning and Rodman's call was better. Rodman picked up AA's move earlier AND saw the bolt.

I work for a TV station and we have reviewed the replay, the original and the NBC video as if it were the Zapruder film. I really wish that there was a blimp cam.

I'm confident that there was no "intent" by Ramon and that both horses were exceptional to recover from the incident. I watched the race with my former boss (a racing consultant) and since I'd been "touting" Scrappy to everyone who would listen I focused on him immediately. It was funny because on the first turn I mentioned how he was "relaxing on a long hold" then a few moments later, Tom said the exact same words! Of course, being a NYRA racing analyst, I know all the "Durkinims" by heart.
My friend thought it was hilarious and was thrilled for me as Scrappy blasted by High Limit. We had both seen AA's move and knew that Scrappy was about to face a serious challenge. When they crashed we both thought that there would be two horses and two riders on the track in front of a wall of horses.

I spoke to Emily yesterday and know that everyone in the Scrappy camp was very sorry that this should have happened and thankful that no one was hurt. Everyone who has ever "lead one over" knows the risks and hopes for a safe and fair trip. belive me, they just wanted a clear stretch drive and a true test of these two fine horses.

SeaOat
May. 23, 2005, 01:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you watch the rest of the race you will see Afleet Alex being whipped to the finish line. At the 1/16th pole Ramon (my image 5pkn1203 on my web site) looks through his legs and stops whipping Scrappy T and coast home, whereas the Giacomo and the others are whipping all the way. Don’t forget that Scrappy T lost some momentum in the incident also, yet he finished second by only 4-3/4 lengths and 5 lengths in front of the rest of the field. Not bad for another long shot. Who now is not getting any respect from the media. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"If IFS and BUTS were beer and nuts we'd all have a heck of a party." Welcome to racing!

I can't really see anything from that pic, pretty far away.....but yes, riders do stop whipping their horses when sitting where their horse is spent. In other words: He's well in front of the horses he's going to beat (and) no point in sticking further to catch the one way up front....ESPECIALLY when he knows he had no shot of catching AA on a horse that 1. can't be sticked w/out very possibly ducking away (again).

As for ST losing momentum, well duh...but he didn't drop knees 8 inches from the ground and come up flying either. Therein lies the difference in calibur of horse. AA was making a monster move past everyone & still recovered. Even without the contact, even *with* ST being whipped, most anyone understanding race horses knows ST would have still just run a very good second. Yes, he "only" got beat by 4-3/4 by a horse who *took the worst of the hit*!

Cool you stayed focused on ST w/ so many of his trip, assume you have a shot of the big moment where they clipped? Or anything that the main media missed of those top of stretch shots? All pics of those brief moments would be great to see! Not everyday you witness sports history w/ camera in hand!

Baltimore Sun front paged a doozy, showed just how low AA went....scary stuff.

accidental buckaroo
May. 23, 2005, 01:55 PM
I saw that Baltimore Sun photo and omg. I don't mean to belabor the point, but why would you hit a horse left handed at that point?

AB

cmannphoto
May. 23, 2005, 02:08 PM
I never took anything away from Afleet Alex and Jeremy Rose. As I said, I think they both did one hell of a job. My point was that Scrappy T deserves more recognition then just the horse that clipped AA. Scrappy ran a great race against some good horses.

I mentioned the photo of Ramon looking through his legs to illustrate that even with the incident that Scrappy T still placed second by a comfortable margin.

Here are some links to view more photos.

SI Photos (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/05/21/preakness/content.1.html)

Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/22/AR2005052200786.html)


Talk about what ifs

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7955463/


Proud Scrappy T supporter,

Charlie Mann
www.cmannphoto.com (http://www.cmannphoto.com\2005preakness.htm)

accidental buckaroo
May. 23, 2005, 02:46 PM
USA Today's photo gallery has an interesting shot too, number 3. When you look at that, I think it is miraculous they both did not suffer a huge horse calamity.

I Still wonder why he hit him on the left side.

I do question the jockey and I am not the only one, it seems.

accidental buckaroo
May. 23, 2005, 02:55 PM
Linny, this is what a DRF writer said on 5-20 in msnbc.com article.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7913238/

"We're kind of doing a lot of what the handicappers are doing, wondering whether we're going to get the distance," Bailes said. "Pimlico is going to favor us a little bit trying to get the extra distance. Off of [the Withers], I really feel strongly he'll get it."

Bailes particularly liked the way Scrappy T relaxed in the Withers, sitting off War Plan through a moderate half-mile before taking over in the stretch. He did veer in during the stretch while awkwardly changing leads.

***
So does he veer like that alot. I am just trying to understand the difference.

Thanks

AB
edited for typo

SeaOat
May. 23, 2005, 03:13 PM
AB: you stick left on a horse to put him on his R lead. They should go right on straights and left on turns, keeping fatgue to a minimum.
By now most these horses do it on their own as exercise riders teach them early on in their training (if not getting to it naturally). If not taught correctly & persistantly as a youngster it can become more of a problem habit later.
Sometimes a sore horse will be reluctant to switch over too, as it hurts....you'll notice most breakdowns happen into the stretch as this change happens onto the leg majority of horses stay on the longest (going by most written distance).

mcm7780
May. 23, 2005, 03:26 PM
Windsor -- Yep! That is the statue I "rode"! So it is Secretariat...I feel better now! I thought maybe I'd been mistaken all these years! *L* I felt very cool getting to sit on it. So that one isn't there anymore? How sad! He was fun to sit on...good size for me!

accidental buckaroo
May. 23, 2005, 03:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaOat:
AB: you stick left on a horse to put him on his R lead. They should go right on straights and left on turns, keeping fatgue to a minimum.
By now most these horses do it on their own as exercise riders teach them early on in their training (if not getting to it naturally). If not taught correctly & persistantly as a youngster it can become more of a problem habit later.
Sometimes a sore horse will be reluctant to switch over too, as it hurts....you'll notice most breakdowns happen into the stretch as this change happens onto the leg majority of horses stay on the longest (going by most written distance). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know there is more of an art to this than I ever imagined. Well forgive the bluntness of this question, but as I had no idea that they should go right on straights and left on turns, did he miss it? Not like that lead, maybe sore?Does he tend to veer when he switches leads?


Is this the same thing that happened in last years Arlington (I think that was it) when Powerscourt got dq'd or was that something else?

Thank you for that lead info.

AB

SeaOat
May. 23, 2005, 03:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Windsor -- Yep! That is the statue I "rode"! So it is Secretariat...I feel better now! I thought maybe I'd been mistaken all these years! *L* I felt very cool getting to sit on it. So that one isn't there anymore? How sad! He was fun to sit on...good size for me! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Crike! You guys are getting to sit on Secretariats while I had to ride the 25 cent palominos outside the grocery stores. But haha, mine moved http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Glimmerglass
May. 23, 2005, 03:50 PM
I stand corrected if indeed there was/is a 2nd Secretariat statue at the KHP http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The articles I read during the unveiling last winter suggested this was their first homage to the other Big Red.

My apologies to Windsor!

mcm7780
May. 23, 2005, 04:07 PM
SeaOat -- Ohhh...I like those 25 cent mechanical ponies! *L* I actually have a picture of me sitting on one in England when I had just turned 22. (It was done as a joke...) But seriously, you gotta go sit on Secretariat if he's still there! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Laurierace
May. 23, 2005, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sonesta:
Let me clarify what I meant. IF Scrappy T's jockey had not looked back WHEN Afleet Alex almost fell, he MIGHT have been able to maintain enough pace to win. Of course, if that had happened, he MIGHT have gotten set back for interference.

I completely agree that if Afleet Alex had not tripped, he'd have blown past Scrappy T. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok no offense, but this is just plain silly. How does a jock turning his head to look slow a horse down? Its not like he pulled him up, got off and looked around a bit. And besides, at that point it didn't matter what he did because if they had held on to win, they would have been taken down. There is absolutely no MIGHT about it, he was coming down.
Here are some of my pics from Sat.

http://community.webshots.com/album/351868673ZexHCq

SeaOat
May. 23, 2005, 04:17 PM
CMPhoto: Nothing taken away from ST's very good race by anyone, but to say he ran a "great" race is reserved for the horse who ran 100% honest, no ducking allowed. Maybe next time he'll be more game & not dick around when he's up front, hopefully. But always exciting to be around a big horse so understand you are more emotional & analytical about it.
Most give up looking for excuses on these animals if they're smart, works best not to. When there's a wrinkle, iron it out & move on. And no one backside cares what the press writes as most is bs, btw.

cmannphoto
May. 23, 2005, 05:32 PM
SeaOat: As I stated in the beginning of my first post my opinion might be a bias one. Seeing first and second hand all the hard work that Robbie, Emily, Benny and the rest of the crew puts into getting a horse to a race like the Preakness, just doesn’t seem right not to acknowledge their accomplishments. Emily has put in some very long days at the barns making sure all the horses have the best of care. She always puts the horse’s welfare before her own. Likewise, Scrappy T’s groom Benny knows everything about that horse and spent many a long day pampering him.

My choice of “great” might be taken the wrong way by some, but when you look at who he bet in this race, to me it was a great race. I am sure Emily feels the same way, she said to me if Scrappy T finished last, she would be ok with it as long as he came home sound and anything better was icing on the cake.

I am still learning this whole racing thing and I equate horse racing to NASCAR. In the early years it was just a bunch of cars/horses going around in circles. Not until network TV started keying in on the strategy and everything that happens in the pits did it become more interesting and their ratings went up. The same thing has happened to me. I thought the “Conditions book” was the conditions of the track, not the conditions for entering a particular race. I thought you just put a bunch of horses in a race and the best horse won. Now, I have a better understanding of all the little things that most people don’t see that goes into making a race horse do the things it does. I am always asking Emily who, what, when, where and how? It is amazing to me how much work it takes to channel a horse’s energy and to get them to release it at the right time.

Emily and I went to the draw on Wednesday night at the ESPN Zone in Baltimore. It was very interesting to see the strategy of being able to pick your starting post positions. Being first to pick was not every bodies choice, they wanted to see where some of the other horse were so they could pick who they wanted to be next to. Scrappy’s connection where lucky because they got to pick the position that they felt would work for him. Others were not so lucky.

I questioned the change of riders on Scrappy T and after listening to several people’s comments on why to switch riders I can see the logic behind each of them. Yet each reason has its pros and cons. The connections had their reasons for going with Remon. He had experience with the Pimlico track, to which he rode a “good” race until the top of the stretch. His timing of the whip to Scrappy T made the race more dramatic then everybody expected. Did it change the out come of the race? Probably not the order of finish, but maybe the margin of victory for Afleet Alex. I am not going to get into the “what ifs”, the race is over with Afleet Alex being the winner and Scrappy T betting the rest of the field hands (hooves) down. The most important thing is that both of the horses and riders came out of the race uninjured.

Charlie Mann
www.cmannphoto.com (http://www.cmannphoto.com\2005preakness.htm)

Drumbiggle
May. 23, 2005, 06:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by accidental buckaroo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaOat:
AB: you stick left on a horse to put him on his R lead. They should go right on straights and left on turns, keeping fatgue to a minimum.
By now most these horses do it on their own as exercise riders teach them early on in their training (if not getting to it naturally). If not taught correctly & persistantly as a youngster it can become more of a problem habit later.
Sometimes a sore horse will be reluctant to switch over too, as it hurts....you'll notice most breakdowns happen into the stretch as this change happens onto the leg majority of horses stay on the longest (going by most written distance). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know there is more of an art to this than I ever imagined. Well forgive the bluntness of this question, but as I had no idea that they should go right on straights and left on turns, did he miss it? Not like that lead, maybe sore?Does he tend to veer when he switches leads?


Is this the same thing that happened in last years Arlington (I think that was it) when Powerscourt got dq'd or was that something else?

Thank you for that lead info.

AB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AB, do you ride?
If you do, then you know how it's a lot more comfortable for horse and rider when turning to the left at the canter for the horse to be on the left lead and vice versa. It's also more efficient as the horse bends it's body to that side.
So for a racehorse going around turns on a US track you want them on the left lead.
You switch to the right in the straighaways to even out the workload.

What happened in the Arl Mill with Powerscourt was different, that was more run of the mill horse drifting away from the whip while being ridden out hard. Jaime Spencer was at fault there and should have switched his whip to address the drift and avoid interfering with the other horses.
In Europe or Aus the same incident would not have resulted in the horse being DQed, though Spencer would have likely picked up a nice suspension.



.

whitehorse
May. 23, 2005, 09:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> she said to me if Scrappy T finished last, she would be ok with it as long as he came home sound and anything better was icing on the cake.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very, VERY cool http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Kudos to Scrappy and his awesome team!

Two Toofs
May. 24, 2005, 05:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cmannphoto:
I never took anything away from Afleet Alex and Jeremy Rose. As I said, I think they both did one hell of a job. My point was that Scrappy T deserves more recognition then just the horse that clipped AA. Scrappy ran a great race against some good horses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thing to remember is that had their been no incident, 95% of the people watching the race wouldn't even remember the name of the horse who ran second by the next week. Scrappy T goes down in history this way. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And, coming from one who has lead *many* over, once something like that happens in a race, absolutely NOTHING matters besides the fact that everyone leaves the track under their own power - horses & riders alike. Finish positions & history books be damned.

caffeinated
May. 24, 2005, 07:09 AM
geez, that msnbc 'what if" article really got my hackles up- Scrappy and his jockey seemed to be in just as much danger as Afleet Alex and Rose- no, scrappy didn't go down on his knees, but he very well could have been injured. And Ramon came within an inch, maybe two, of falling directly in Afleet Alex's path- talk about a 'what if'- why is nobody talking about THAT what if? For Scrappy T and Ramon to come out of that scramble and finish 2nd is every bit as impressive to me as Afleet Alex's victory...

Am I too biased having read about him here?

Windsor
May. 24, 2005, 07:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
I stand corrected if indeed there was/is a 2nd Secretariat statue at the KHP http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The articles I read during the unveiling last winter suggested this was their first homage to the other Big Red.

My apologies to Windsor! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, no apology necessary! I really didn't know either, I just knew that another statue of him had to be hanging around somewhere. Like I said, I was thinking it was at Claiborne.

mcm7780--The article I provided the link for above says while the newest Big Red statue will stand at the KHP's Secretariat Plaza, "your" statue will be relocated to the Secretariat Center for retraining and rehoming retired thoroughbreds. So maybe someday you can go back and ride it again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

accidental buckaroo
May. 24, 2005, 08:02 AM
SeaOat, yes I do ride, not as much as I would like to. I missed the explanation of how horses are trained to change leads. Your explanation was very succinct and I appreciated it.

Still not certain about ducking and veering but I will hush about it.

Thanks
AB

Glimmerglass
May. 24, 2005, 08:41 AM
Daily Racing Form 5/24/05 (http://www.drf.com/news/article/65243.html)

Bailes won't blame Dominguez

Trainer Robert Bailes said Monday that Ramon Dominguez would stay on Preakness runner-up Scrappy T for whatever his next race may be. Bailes said the Belmont Stakes is one of several options he and owner Marshall Dowell would consider for Scrappy T's next start.

"We're going to stick with Ramon," Bailes said Monday. "I've been switching way too much. I switched jockeys more on this horse than all 20 of mine that ran throughout the year."

In his last four starts, Scrappy T has been ridden by Dominguez, Rafael Bejarano, and Alan Garcia. Luis Diaz rode Scrappy T in all five starts as a 2-year-old.

Dominguez whacked Scrappy T extremely hard left-handed turning for home, and the gelding veered out sharply, clipping heels with Afleet Alex and forcing that horse to stumble badly. Dominguez said that he hit Scrappy T because the horse was spooking from the crowd noise.

"I told Ramon I'll never second-guess him, what he did," Bailes said. "It's horse racing; I've been in it long enough. Unfortunately, things happen at the wrong time. He rode a heck of a race."

Scrappy T shipped to Delaware Park on Sunday morning. Bailes said Monday that the horse came out of the race in good order. In addition to the Belmont, Bailes is also considering trying Scrappy T on the turf.

SeaOat
May. 28, 2005, 11:31 AM
...the yit you read in the press....why bother posting it when reading it comes w/ a grain of salt?