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CrocusPony
Apr. 28, 2010, 12:10 PM
Recently I heard of this new fangled invention, an "air bag" eventing jacket. If you come off, the jacket apparently inflates very quickly like an airbag and protects you from impact.

From my understanding it sort of attaches to the saddle via a cord, you come off, cord pulls and POOF!

Two questions.... Say a rider got REALLY left behind over a fence (I realize if that's the case they maybe shouldn't be jumping at that height, just a theoretical), would the jacket inflate?

If the jacket did happen to inflate in that scenario, what's the chance that the horse would lose it's marbles due to the loud "POOF" ing noise on it's back, potentially causing a wreck?

Any other thoughts on these jackets would be greatly appreciated. Are they good? Bad? An expensive gimmick?

JER
Apr. 28, 2010, 12:42 PM
Do a search.

This garment has been discussed in great detail on both this BB and the Horse & Hound board and, at this point, there's not much more to be said.

BAC
Apr. 28, 2010, 12:47 PM
I think Oliver Townend was wearing one when he fell on cross country at Rolex this year.

OneMoreForTheRoad
Apr. 28, 2010, 12:52 PM
I haven't really looked into the air vest that much, since I don't event enough that buying on would be worth it. But the majority of the top riders at Rolex were wearing one (either the Point Two Pro or the Hit Air) So my guess is theres probably a lot of good that these vests do.

Fo your question about the vest inflating if a rider got left behind, the lanyard that attaches the vest to the saddle is long enough that as long as you are still "in" the saddle it won't inflate. If you got so left behind that you are out of the saddle you probably aren't going to stay on the horse very long anyways and the vest would inflate.

Also from my understanding the vests really aren't that loud when they inflate. Its just a popping noise. I know of a couple of people who own them and forgot to unhook the lanyard from the saddle as they got off and inflated themselves... horses could really car less about their rider turning into a black marshmallow.

CrocusPony
Apr. 28, 2010, 12:55 PM
Do a search.

This garment has been discussed in great detail on both this BB and the Horse & Hound board and, at this point, there's not much more to be said.

Oh sorry, I didn't realize! I'll have a peek through the old discussions.


I haven't really looked into the air vest that much, since I don't event enough that buying on would be worth it. But the majority of the top riders at Rolex were wearing one (either the Point Two Pro or the Hit Air) So my guess is theres probably a lot of good that these vests do.

Fo your question about the vest inflating if a rider got left behind, the lanyard that attaches the vest to the saddle is long enough that as long as you are still "in" the saddle it won't inflate. If you got so left behind that you are out of the saddle you probably aren't going to stay on the horse very long anyways and the vest would inflate.

Also from my understanding the vests really aren't that loud when they inflate. Its just a popping noise. I know of a couple of people who own them and forgot to unhook the lanyard from the saddle as they got off and inflated themselves... horses could really car less about their rider turning into a black marshmallow.

Well that's good to know I guess.

ddashaq
Apr. 28, 2010, 01:15 PM
They seem to have really taken off. I was at Poplar in March and then at Rolex last weekend and a lot of the upper level riders are using them. Personally, I am quite certain that I would somehow snag it mid course and have to finish looking and riding like a blowfish.;) (Plus I am pre-BN at this point, so it would be a little extreme to be toodling around my little bitty courses with my air vest on!)

deltawave
Apr. 28, 2010, 01:23 PM
But the majority of the top riders at Rolex were wearing one (either the Point Two Pro or the Hit Air) So my guess is theres probably a lot of good that these vests do.

I wouldn't say that the second half necessarily follows from the first half of that statement. :) It would be VERY NICE to have some actual data that they help, but in the meantime people who can afford them seem to be buying and wearing them, so . . . that will have to do for now, I guess.

scubed
Apr. 28, 2010, 01:25 PM
there may be insufficient data, but the riders are voting with their checkbooks. 31 of 42 starters wore the point 2 and another 2 or 3 wore the hit air at Rolex (this is what the point 2 rep at the Bit of Britain booth told me Sunday afternoon). My academic work is in the diffusion and adoption of medical technology and I find this whole thing fascinating.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Apr. 28, 2010, 01:31 PM
Deltawave- if you're interested in seeing data, look into the motocross vests that work under the same principle. They've been around for years in that industry and function almost exactly as the riding vests do. I believe they are standard uniform in MX racing at this point.

Janet
Apr. 28, 2010, 01:33 PM
there may be insufficient data, but the riders are voting with their checkbooks. 31 of 42 starters wore the point 2 and another 2 or 3 wore the hit air at Rolex (this is what the point 2 rep at the Bit of Britain booth told me Sunday afternoon). My academic work is in the diffusion and adoption of medical technology and I find this whole thing fascinating.
The cynic in me asks-
"Are the riders PAYING FOR the Air Vests? Or are they BEING PAID to wear them?"

gully's pilot
Apr. 28, 2010, 01:35 PM
Some of both, would be my guess. For sure some are being paid, but I'd be surprised if all of them were.

Fergs
Apr. 28, 2010, 01:41 PM
Here is a list of US sponsored riders:

http://www.pointtwousa.com/sponsoredathletes.html

In the UK, I know WFP, Olie, and Mary King are sponsored by Point Two. I'm sure there are more, but there are many UL riders in both countries wearing the vests without sponsorships.

eventer_mi
Apr. 28, 2010, 06:50 PM
I just like the idea of landing on something puffy when I fall off....not that my a$$ isn't enough cushion...;)

RAyers
Apr. 28, 2010, 06:55 PM
Deltawave- if you're interested in seeing data, look into the motocross vests that work under the same principle. They've been around for years in that industry and function almost exactly as the riding vests do. I believe they are standard uniform in MX racing at this point.

Uh, falling off a motorcycle and a horse are tow TOTALLY different mechanical systems. At the same time, if you look at the current F1 motorcycle vests, they have NO lanyard and are computer controlled to avoid inadvertent deployment. Motorcyclists do not have to worry about CRUSHING blows nor high trajectory falls (they deal predominantly with low trajectory falls).

You can NOT compare a motorcycle accident to falling off a horse.

Reed

Blugal
Apr. 28, 2010, 07:16 PM
It's pretty amazing that they sponsor 16 riders in the US. Do they need that many to make sure the message gets across?

Also I'm wary of David O'Connor being a sponsored rider by them. What's next... a USEF-supported rule change requiring them? Or is it more likely that if you want to make the Canadian team, you'd better toe the line and wear what you're told? (Sorry the cynic in me can't resist...)

adamsmom
Apr. 28, 2010, 07:23 PM
Oliver Townend has repeatedly said that his air vest saved his life.

And having seen that fall, I can't find any other reason that he's still alive.

FWIW, I highly doubt there will be any USEF or EC rule requiring them any time soon.

JER
Apr. 28, 2010, 07:29 PM
Oliver Townend has repeatedly said that his air vest saved his life.

And having seen that fall, I can't find any other reason that he's still alive.

OT was wearing both a certified safety helmet and a conventional, certified body protector.

Yet you conclude his un- or partially- or eventually-inflated air jacket saved him?

adamsmom
Apr. 28, 2010, 07:37 PM
OT was wearing both a certified safety helmet and a conventional, certified body protector.

Yet you conclude his un- or partially- or eventually-inflated air jacket saved him?

I don't conclude anything.
I'm just repeating what the man himself said.

And having seen a number of falls that were very similar, but the riders did not have air vests and suffered extreme & sometimes fatal injuries, it's a possibility that he's correct.

JER
Apr. 28, 2010, 07:42 PM
I don't conclude anything.
I'm just repeating what the man himself said.

Let me quote your own words. Again:



And having seen that fall, I can't find any other reason that he's still alive.

Sounds like a conclusion to me. Just not a very sound one.

adamsmom
Apr. 28, 2010, 07:44 PM
Let me quote your own words. Again:



Sounds like a conclusion to me. Just not a very sound one.

Being a lawyer, I'd disagree with your statement that it's a conclusion. It's in no way a definitive statement.
It's a supposition. Absent other facts, I don't know why he's still alive.

Do you know?

But thanks for quoting my words, because in my advanced age, I'd obviously forgotten what I typed 5 minutes ago.

JER
Apr. 28, 2010, 07:54 PM
Absent other facts, I don't know why he's still alive.

I pointed out two 'facts' in my earlier post: (1) his certified helmet and (2) his certified body protector.

How in heck can you negate the effects of those and only sing the praises of his air jacket?

And in all your study of the incident, are you reasonably certain that the air jacket was fully deployed before the horse landed on him? Otherwise, the air jacket is basically a piece of soft fabric and your 'supposition' is laughable.

adamsmom
Apr. 28, 2010, 08:03 PM
I pointed out two 'facts' in my earlier post: (1) his certified helmet and (2) his certified body protector.

How in heck can you negate the effects of those and only sing the praises of his air jacket?

And in all your study of the incident, are you reasonably certain that the air jacket was fully deployed before the horse landed on him? Otherwise, the air jacket is basically a piece of soft fabric and your 'supposition' is laughable.

We can agree to disagree. His air vest was deployed. He says so. The people on scene say so.
Other riders with certified vest and certified helmets, but without air vests, who suffered similar falls; e.g. the horse fell on them, have suffered far worse injuries and some have even died.

I don't negate the protective features of those certified products. I just think there is some other reason OT is still alive, walking, talking and not comatose in hospital.

It may be the air vest. I'm not a huge believer in guardian angels, but maybe they were in force.

Laughable it may be, but it's what the man himself believes. And I have a hard time finding a reasonable argument against it.

Do you have one? Prove to me it WASN'T the air vest.

And quit being so catty. I don't care what it was that saved him, I'm just glad no one and no horse died this year.

Janet
Apr. 28, 2010, 08:16 PM
. Motorcyclists do not have to worry about CRUSHING blows nor high trajectory falls (they deal predominantly with low trajectory falls).
I hate to disagree with you, Reed, but you clearly haven't spent a lot of time corner working at morotcycle roadraces, or perusing the "crash page" in Roadracing World.

While the TYPICAL motorcycle roadracing fall is a "lowside" (where the major dangers are road rash, or sliding into something solid), a "highside" fall is, by definition a "high trajectory" fall.

In a "highside" either just the rider, or both the rider and the bike are launched into the air- often at least as high as a rider clearing a jump.

Furthermore, while a racing motorcyle is considerably lighter than a horse, it can produce quite a crushing blow when it lands on you, especially if the bike has also been launched in the air by a highside. Even just being run over by a bike can cause serious injuries, worse if the rider on the bike tries to brake.

I agree that, in general, horse fall and motorcycle roadracing falls are different, and the appropriate means of protection are different. But raodracers DO have to worry about high trajectory falls and crushing injuries.

deltawave
Apr. 28, 2010, 08:34 PM
People form their own opinions about things that happen to them, and it's certainly their prerogative. But we only rarely "know" what it is that saves our lives--in this case it may indeed have been the air vest, it may have been the "standard" vest, it may have been that the horse's haunches and not his entire weight landed on him. The rider is certainly far more entitled to an opinion on the matter than any of us, but unless he'd previously taken a similar fall and NOT survived (unlikely) then it's no more than an opinion or assumption on his part that the vest definitely saved his life. :)

adamsmom
Apr. 28, 2010, 08:39 PM
People form their own opinions about things that happen to them, and it's certainly their prerogative. But we only rarely "know" what it is that saves our lives--in this case it may indeed have been the air vest, it may have been the "standard" vest, it may have been that the horse's haunches and not his entire weight landed on him. The rider is certainly far more entitled to an opinion on the matter than any of us, but unless he'd previously taken a similar fall and NOT survived (unlikely) then it's no more than an opinion or assumption on his part that the vest definitely saved his life. :)

I don't disagree. But, given the fatality videos that I've seen, I can't definitively disagree with him that the air vest was the difference.

Who knows? I don't. I can only suppose.

JER
Apr. 28, 2010, 08:48 PM
But adamsmom, how about the people who've had rotational falls WITHOUT a body protector and weren't injured at all?

It happens. I've seen it myself.

It's not your guardian angels, either. It's the physics of the fall.

SevenDogs
Apr. 28, 2010, 08:51 PM
I've said it before and will say it again. I hope these vests are the greatest thing ever and once I feel like they have been proven safe, I will be first one to whip out my checkbook.


HOWEVER, they have not been PROVEN safe to me, and my concern is in certain (and most serious situations), they could actually exacerbate injuries.


I am not nearly as concerned that in certain instances they might do NOTHING to help. If that were the worst case scenario, I would be more forgiving and say, if they might prevent injury (and here is the important part) NOT BE CAPABLE OF CAUSING HARM, I would probably wear one.


My concern is this scenario: horse and rider are involved in a rotational fall (we all agree rotational falls have the greatest chance of creating life threatening injuries). Air vest does NOT deploy because horse and rider fall together and don't get enough separation from each other to pull tether away from saddle. Horse lands on rider creating serious crushing injuries (air vest still not deployed). Horse gets off of rider and suddenly gets far enough away from the rider to pull the tether and activate inflation. The resulting inflation compresses the seriously injured rider's skeleton and/or injured organs thereby EXACERBATING serious injuries.


I can think of a couple similar scenarios where the vest has potential to harm in the most dire situations, including neck/spinal injuries that happen prior to full inflation. ONLY when that is PROVEN to not be a possibility will I consider purchasing one for me or ULR close to me.


I guess if I just wait, enough rider/guinea pigs will create the data over time. I just wish people weren't risking potential serious injury to do so, simply because of aggressive (and in some cases false advertising) or because BNR's are wearing them.

SuZQuzie
Apr. 28, 2010, 08:52 PM
For the cynic, the riders are only being given the vests and are not being paid to wear them. Fact.

TXnGA
Apr. 28, 2010, 09:22 PM
I've said it before and will say it again. I hope these vests are the greatest thing ever and once I feel like they have been proven safe, I will be first one to whip out my checkbook.


HOWEVER, they have not been PROVEN safe to me, and my concern is in certain (and most serious situations), they could actually exacerbate injuries.


I am not nearly as concerned that in certain instances they might do NOTHING to help. If that were the worst case scenario, I would be more forgiving and say, if they might prevent injury (and here is the important part) NOT BE CAPABLE OF CAUSING HARM, I would probably wear one.


My concern is this scenario: horse and rider are involved in a rotational fall (we all agree rotational falls have the greatest chance of creating life threatening injuries). Air vest does NOT deploy because horse and rider fall together and don't get enough separation from each other to pull tether away from saddle. Horse lands on rider creating serious crushing injuries (air vest still not deployed). Horse gets off of rider and suddenly gets far enough away from the rider to pull the tether and activate inflation. The resulting inflation compresses the seriously injured rider's skeleton and/or injured organs thereby EXACERBATING serious injuries.



Could it also be said that an airbag in a car could do the same thing: excerbate (sp?) wounds? I'm not trying to make anyone mad... but i remember a time when airbags in cars were thought to be dangerous to a person in a car accident. And I have heard of instances where the airbag does not deploy until after the accident... could we like the vest to the airbag when it first came out? Or am I way off base?!?!? I am not an engineer but this thought did occur to me when reading this thread. Heck I used to not wear a seat belt in a car, and remember the days when seat belts were not mandatory, and then not madatory unless you were in the front seat... now I do.....

lstevenson
Apr. 28, 2010, 09:23 PM
My concern is this scenario: horse and rider are involved in a rotational fall (we all agree rotational falls have the greatest chance of creating life threatening injuries). Air vest does NOT deploy because horse and rider fall together and don't get enough separation from each other to pull tether away from saddle. Horse lands on rider creating serious crushing injuries (air vest still not deployed). Horse gets off of rider and suddenly gets far enough away from the rider to pull the tether and activate inflation. The resulting inflation compresses the seriously injured rider's skeleton and/or injured organs thereby EXACERBATING serious injuries.



That's exactly what I was thinking.

And in fact I heard that one of the riders that fell at the hollow this weekend found the air vest painful after it inflated. I was thinking either it was the above scenario or that maybe it was just on too tight.

TXnGA
Apr. 28, 2010, 09:27 PM
That's exactly what I was thinking.

And in fact I heard that one of the riders that fell at the hollow this weekend found the air vest painful after it inflated. I was thinking either it was the above scenario or that maybe it was just on too tight.

From what I heard from a rider who jumped off a horse and forgot to unhook it, it felt like he had been shot, when it deployed. which I can imagine, but is it similiar to if you hit an airbag in a car, it may leave some road rash, but in the end saves your life?. IMHO

And you also have to take into consideration that one airvest inflates inward (point 2) and one vest inflates outward (hit air)...

SashaBast
Apr. 28, 2010, 09:35 PM
These puppies deploy FAST! .05 seconds. They will compress to the degree that the vest is fitted to the body. It felt to me like getting your arm squeezed by a blood pressure gauge, but not that tight! Safety studies link from one manufacter: http://www.air-vest.com/hit-air-safety-studies.htm

Back in the day safety vests were not used at all. I can only imagine similar discussions when they came into the sport.

With regard to motor cycles and horse falls - motor cross in my opinion is very similar. Hit a hill roll on landing - rotational fall.

Bit of Britain folks are super happy to demonstrate the model they are selling. Try one out for yourselves to see what you think. : )

Kementari
Apr. 28, 2010, 09:41 PM
I had a horse fall on me once and walked (limped...) away with a sprained ankle. The only safety equipment I was wearing was a helmet.

Does that mean that my t-shirt and breeches saved my life?

If you look at the pictures, OT's vest has not inflated when ACM lands on him.

Initial impact: http://eclipsesportswire.spitfirephoto.com/viewphoto.php?albumId=110782&imageId=4171426

After the horse rolls off him (thus activating the jacket):
http://eclipsesportswire.spitfirephoto.com/viewphoto.php?albumId=110782&imageId=4171423

This is precisely the sort of situation SevenDogs cites, albeit apparently without any major initial injury (thankfully!).

CrocusPony
Apr. 28, 2010, 09:59 PM
Initial impact: http://eclipsesportswire.spitfirephoto.com/viewphoto.php?albumId=110782&imageId=4171426

After the horse rolls off him (thus activating the jacket):
http://eclipsesportswire.spitfirephoto.com/viewphoto.php?albumId=110782&imageId=4171423


Oh wow. I hadn't seen those pics yet, that is one scary fall and I don't care WHAT it was that saved him, he's a very lucky man. Personally I think he must have had someone looking over him that day...

clm08
Apr. 28, 2010, 10:22 PM
I am not planning on getting one of these air vests anytime soon, but I am amazed to read the radically opposing views that this piece of equipment can indeed offer more benefits than risks. It reminds me of the arguments I have heard about why some people don't believe in seat belts: if you are knocked out during a car accident and your car catches on fire, it will be harder for others to pull you out of the car. Or if your car falls into a river or lake, you may drown before you can get the belt off and out of the car. Then there are the motorcyclists who refuse to wear a helmet...

What kind of data do you require to assess the usefulness of the air vest? Are you going to have a test group with the vest, and the corresponding control group without, submit them to similar falls (rotational with horse crushing rider, rotation without horse crushing rider, non-rotational falls where rider is ejected and flies X distance in the air at Y speed), or are you going to use dummies on horses like those in simulated car accidents? We had a good number of rider falls at Rolex with riders wearing the air vest, but the skeptics' conclusion seems to be- it could have helped, but it could also have been the regular vest, or the helmet, or the horse only falling partially on the rider. Therefore there is no way to conclude the air vest was helpful at all.

I would wear one if I didn't have to pay so much and would happily test it for the manufacturer. Unfortunately no one would want to sponsor this lower than low level eventer...:lol:

RAyers
Apr. 28, 2010, 10:36 PM
Janet I agree that there are always exceptions and motorcyclists do have similar incidents. But when you look at the injury and accident rates in Europe, Australia and the US, you see a definite trend in injury types, indicating some different aspect in the biomechanics of the incident. For instance, the primary method of death in a motorcycle accident is cervical dislocation (separating the head from body at the atlas and axis) from the rider hitting face first. Whereas in horses, it is head trauma (skull fracture, craniofacial fracture) from the rider hitting skull first. The added 3 meters of distance (average height of the head of the rider when on a "standard" 500 kg horse) allows for a modified fall/rotation.

On thing is for sure, in both, a vest does zilch.

In horses the next major injury is in the lower and upper EXTREMITIES. While on the motorcycle it is the lower extremity and then torso.

I may not peruse Roadracing World but I do peruse things such as the American Journal of Surgery, and the Journal of Oral and Craniofacial Surgery. ;)

Reed


I hate to disagree with you, Reed, but you clearly haven't spent a lot of time corner working at morotcycle roadraces, or perusing the "crash page" in Roadracing World...

RAyers
Apr. 28, 2010, 10:42 PM
For those who are wondering why folks are questioning the ideas behind inflatable vests ask yourself or any other person this:

Would you be willing to lay there in an un-inflated vest, with a 1,000 lb truck axle hanging 3-6 feet above you and the vest has less than a second to react once the axle is released? Or would you prefer a vest that has been shown via a standard test to withstand they type of impact you are about to face?

Reed

RAyers
Apr. 28, 2010, 10:45 PM
....
What kind of data do you require to assess the usefulness of the air vest?....

The safety company that helped develop frangible pins etc., TRL, in the UK has begun to test these vests and at the moment the data is very inconclusive. The only thing they have proven is they don't do more harm.

I want more testing sufficient to meet at least the current standards and to show increased protection in rotational falls.

Reed

lstevenson
Apr. 28, 2010, 10:47 PM
And you also have to take into consideration that one airvest inflates inward (point 2) and one vest inflates outward (hit air)...


Boy I would think that inflating outward would be much better than inward!

JER
Apr. 28, 2010, 10:50 PM
For instance, the primary method of death in a motorcycle accident is cervical dislocation (separating the head from body at the atlas and axis) from the rider hitting face first.

a/k/a 'internal decapitation.' Fun. (And actually, people have survived.)

When discussing motorcycle accidents, keep in mind that a very significant factor is speed; any accident above the 30 mph threshold can prove quite serious. We just don't achieve those velocities on horses.

SevenDogs
Apr. 28, 2010, 10:57 PM
The safety company that helped develop frangible pins etc., TRL, in the UK has begun to test these vests and at the moment the data is very inconclusive. The only thing they have proven is they don't do more harm.

Reed

Is there any place I can find that data online? It does make a difference to me, if indeed, they have proven that they can't do any harm in any situation.

SaveTheOtters
Apr. 28, 2010, 11:01 PM
These puppies deploy FAST! .05 seconds.

assuming the above is correct
if a truck axle was dropped from 3ft, assuming it starts from rest and is only accelerating due to gravity you would have .78s before it hits (X - Xo = Vot + .5at2)
so it would at least deploy in time.
whether or not it protects you from anything, i will not coment :yes:

RAyers
Apr. 28, 2010, 11:22 PM
.... but i remember a time when airbags in cars were thought to be dangerous to a person in a car accident. And I have heard of instances where the airbag does not deploy until after the accident... could we like the vest to the airbag when it first came out? ...

Air bags WERE dangerous when first developed!!!! They we solid bags with a very high explosive charge that made the bag inflate into a rigid structure.

Nowadays, they have "slowed" the thermite reaction to slow bag inflation and at the same time the bag itself allows diffusion of the nitrogen gas to pass out of the bag, allowing it to deflate both slightly during impact (reducing the deceleration forces) and to fully deflate post crash.

So you are correct! If we use this idea and the past is an indicator, these vest will be more dangerous until a refinement in designs can be accomplished.

adamsmom
Apr. 28, 2010, 11:34 PM
But adamsmom, how about the people who've had rotational falls WITHOUT a body protector and weren't injured at all?

It happens. I've seen it myself.

It's not your guardian angels, either. It's the physics of the fall.

Absolutely rotational falls happen without injury. But rarely when the horse lands on the rider.
Show me the video.

I'm not sure how the pix posted show that the vest didn't deploy. I couldn't tell. I just know what I've been told by those who were there, including OT.

And, again, I'm not saying whether or not the air vest saved him. But when I watched the fall, I thought he was dead. He says the air vest saved his life.
Who am I to question that, absent contradicting evidence?

All you scientists, watch the video. Tell me what the difference was.

I await your verdict.

SevenDogs
Apr. 28, 2010, 11:37 PM
Air bags WERE dangerous when first developed!!!! They we solid bags with a very high explosive charge that made the bag inflate into a rigid structure.

Nowadays, they have "slowed" the thermite reaction to slow bag inflation and at the same time the bag itself allows diffusion of the nitrogen gas to pass out of the bag, allowing it to deflate both slightly during impact (reducing the deceleration forces) and to fully deflate post crash.

So you are correct! If we use this idea and the past is an indicator, these vest will be more dangerous until a refinement in designs can be accomplished.

...and, if I remember correctly, quite a few children were injured when they were introduced which is what led to children now riding only in the back seat (and the numerous warning labels in cars).

They turned out to be a good safety improvement, but there were issues that needed to be addressed that caused injury and I believe even some deaths (and that was after some pretty significant testing prior to installation).

RAyers
Apr. 28, 2010, 11:59 PM
... I just know what I've been told by those who were there, including OT...

Except OT was unconscious when the horse hit him as can be seen by his limp body in the video.

Last time I was out like that I couldn't tell anybody what happened or not.

As for the images, look at the ones from Germany that Gnep posted. They were head on at the fence. If you zoom in you can tell the vest had not fully inflated (or was crushed flat) until the horse came off the bank. OT was never really far enough to pull the lanyard to inflate the vest until then. At the same time the horse did not directly land on OT as can be seen in the pictures.

You can also see that the HELMET is what saved OT as the horse's butt is square on OT's face and the helmet is press against the log. The vest had no effect there.

adamsmom, as you are a lawyer, do you think that the statements you heard would hold up in court given evidence to the contrary? I think it can be shown relatively conclusively that the vest had little to no effect in saving OT. Simple physics states that a deformable, inflatable structure can't hold up to the forces imposed on his body.

Example: put a partially inflated soccer ball against your stomach and have a boxer punch you in the gut. I bet you still will get knocked over and have the wind knocked out of you. You may not have bruises but you will be hurting. That is what these vests do.

Reed

JER
Apr. 29, 2010, 12:21 AM
Thank you, Reed. :)

Janet
Apr. 29, 2010, 01:07 AM
So you are correct! If we use this idea and the past is an indicator, these vest will be more dangerous until a refinement in designs can be accomplished.
My father ( a physicist as well as a motorcycle racer) had this framed in his office at Watson Labs:

The first concept of superior principle is always defeated by the perfected example of established practice.
Extra points if you know the source.

scubed
Apr. 29, 2010, 06:58 AM
Extra points if you know the source.

Pomeroy (?) but I think it was about race car design

riderboy
Apr. 29, 2010, 08:23 AM
I dunno. I suddenly have this sense of deja vu all over again (as Yogi Berra would say) reading this thread. Haven't I seen this all here quite recently. Not complaining or anything but at my age this seems to happen a lot.

RAyers
Apr. 29, 2010, 08:55 AM
The first concept of superior principle is always defeated by the perfected example of established practice.


Janet, that is a quote I never heard. I always used:

"No plan, no matter how great, survives the first punch in the face."

Reed

P.S. Sevendogs, the TRL reference was from a recent H&H article that JER had posted.

RiverBendPol
Apr. 29, 2010, 09:56 AM
Google is a wonderful invention. Having a *&^%$#@ broken leg allows me to search. Maybe now I know why Sportscar was named Sportscar?!:winkgrin:

>>Then came the real revolution when Ford pitched it muscle behind a Dan Gurney-inspired Lotus effort in 1963. The Ford and Lotus combination did not achieve victory until 1965, long after its original thoughts of a first time out victory had met reality. Colin Chapman and several others did not read what Laurence Pomeroy had written in his tome on the technical aspects of racing, The Grand Prix Car; "A law of automobile design is that the first concept of a superior principle is always defeated by the perfect example of established practice."<<

Here's a link to the whole article:
http://www.atlasf1.com/99/dec08/mirror.html

Janet
Apr. 29, 2010, 10:13 AM
Pomeroy (?) but I think it was about race car design

Correct- I think the original context was disk vs drum brakes.

But it applies to all sorts of technology.

Janet
Apr. 29, 2010, 04:50 PM
Maybe now I know why Sportscar was named Sportscar?!:winkgrin:
:yes:

Gnep
Apr. 29, 2010, 11:07 PM
Adamsmom,
I am not know for a guy who does not tell things that are wrong.
I have 6 videaos and several still picture series on my pc, that show, that when OT hit the deck the vest had not deployed. The videos and pictures show that when the horses ass landed on his shoulder and rips the vest was in the stage of deployment. The vest was fully deployed when his horse had droped down the bank.
The vest deployed, but the deployement was completed after the fact, after the injuries cocured.
That is the most important issue with this vest.
What happens if you are already injured and the vest employs, it could parelize you, probably, what happens if your pinney is to tight, it might restrict your breathing when deployed, etc. etc.
To many unknown

I defenetly agree if you have a run of the mill fall of the horse and the vest has time to deploy it will increase protection.
But it seams that it is no help if you are not seperated from your horse and those are the real bad ones and than the sudden, rather forcefull deployment of the vest could do some bad damages.

Remenber OT was out, no count needed, if he says the vest saved him than that is believing, not knowing.

I can not show any of the pics and videos, because they are for private use only.

Gnep
Apr. 29, 2010, 11:15 PM
For those who are wondering why folks are questioning the ideas behind inflatable vests ask yourself or any other person this:

Would you be willing to lay there in an un-inflated vest, with a 1,000 lb truck axle hanging 3-6 feet above you and the vest has less than a second to react once the axle is released? Or would you prefer a vest that has been shown via a standard test to withstand they type of impact you are about to face?

Reed

gimme a case of beer and a bottle of scotch and a joint and i will put on my exo and with a happy smile do the test for ya bro.
Oh well scratch the beer, you censored, censored, cheepo

Gnep
Apr. 29, 2010, 11:26 PM
Google is a wonderful invention. Having a *&^%$#@ broken leg allows me to search. Maybe now I know why Sportscar was named Sportscar?!:winkgrin:

>>Then came the real revolution when Ford pitched it muscle behind a Dan Gurney-inspired Lotus effort in 1963. The Ford and Lotus combination did not achieve victory until 1965, long after its original thoughts of a first time out victory had met reality. Colin Chapman and several others did not read what Laurence Pomeroy had written in his tome on the technical aspects of racing, The Grand Prix Car; "A law of automobile design is that the first concept of a superior principle is always defeated by the perfect example of established practice."<<

Here's a link to the whole article:
http://www.atlasf1.com/99/dec08/mirror.html

But it cost alot of fantastic drivers lives. Colin Chapman was a genious, revolutionized F1, but at the cost of his racers health and lives. I was at the Hokenheim Ring when one of his drivers died, because the brillinat design had a flaw.

Janet, nope, in the Lotus case it was hollow drive and brake shafts. Chapman wanted to reduce the unsprung weight in the wheels of the race car and moved the brakes into the chasy and went even further instead of a solid shaft he used a pipe to conect the wheel with the brake. Great idea, perfect idea, it just did not work. The forces of braking were just to great, the chafts failes and in Clarks case they blew up on the straight. They had fractures from previous braking and the rotational forces on the extrem high speed straight tore them apart and launched the vehicle into the trees.
Roody Woodpecker Syndrom

Meredith Clark
Apr. 29, 2010, 11:49 PM
gimme a case of beer and a bottle of scotch and a joint and i will put on my exo and with a happy smile do the test for ya bro.
Oh well scratch the beer, you censored, censored, cheepo

I asked this on another thread but why isn't the exo more popular? Do they just not have the marketing behind them? I think they look fantastic and would love to own one.

Janet
Apr. 30, 2010, 12:05 AM
Janet, nope, in the Lotus case it was hollow drive and brake shafts.
Nit, nit nit.

No, I wasn't suggesting the CHAPMAN case involved brakes.

(But hollow axles go back to the 30s.)

I was suggesting that Pomeroy was referring to disk brakes. But only a suggestion.

I have just moved my late father's library down here, but I have not yet unpacked (need to install LOTS of bookcases first) so I can't easily look it up.

But I DO have the framed quotation.

LexInVA
Apr. 30, 2010, 01:29 AM
I asked this on another thread but why isn't the exo more popular? Do they just not have the marketing behind them? I think they look fantastic and would love to own one.

1. Price - It is expensive. Like half of an OTTB from CANTER expensive. You can't put a price on your life though the expense is a big deterrent for people pondering a purchase.

2. Availability - For example, we all know that BoB carries the vest but the have erratic inventory and don't have the range of sizes needed to actually sell the product to American customers. Equestrian Collections, which is another online retailer, stocks almost all the sizes but you obviously can't try out the vest to see how it fits. People prefer to buy products they can touch and see before they buy them.

3. Design - People have complained about the way the vest sits on them because of how it's designed and those ladies who are well-endowed have passed on it. I've seen a few come up for sale every so often in the regional classifieds because people buy them from and don't like it or get one that doesn't really fit well or they don't know how to adjust it.

4. Colors - It's not available in hot pink or any other colors you might fancy. I had to say it. Sorry. :lol:

5. Marketing - They never really got anyone behind them and the product met with a lot of resistance from the establishment and companies that had the vest market. Ultimately though, the product was seen as a red-headed step-child and treated as such by the establishment.

JER
Apr. 30, 2010, 02:02 AM
1. Price - It is expensive. Like half of an OTTB from CANTER expensive. You can't put a price on your life though the expense is a big deterrent for people pondering a purchase.

The EXO is substantially less expensive than the Point Two Air Jacket. And you don't have to keep buying CO2 canisters.

I bought an EXO off the rack. It fits me perfectly. However, I have a tiny, tiny ribcage and my EXO is an average size.

riderboy
Apr. 30, 2010, 07:39 AM
I bought an EXO off the rack. It fits me perfectly. However, I have a tiny, tiny ribcage and my EXO is an average size.[/QUOTE]

The marketing for the EXO is almost non-existent here. I didn't even see a display or literature for the EXO at Rolex but what I did see was rider after rider zooming by on XC wearing air vests. And at Bit of Britain they had both models with sales reps for sale. Smartpak had the point two model for sale. EXO sizing is also a big problem for me at 6'2' 170 #. I've looked at the size charts and forget it! So while I will not argue which is better protection for a rotational fall (EXO) as far as what I see compared to it's blow up competitor it's not even on the map.

RAyers
Apr. 30, 2010, 09:04 AM
1. Price - It is expensive. Like half of an OTTB from CANTER expensive. You can't put a price on your life though the expense is a big....


My EXO was about $200 less than a Point 2 vest.

All of these are valid points. These are exactly the same types of issues faced when approved helmets came into the market. A study showed that these factors all came into play when trying to get riders to wear the new helmets. Just because they were tested and safer did not mean they were going to be used.

And just like the air vests, the EXOs also display the same example as Janet's quote. They are NOT perfect and the design can go a long way to being improved, e.g. the Reiterprotektor design does that even though it is only in the design phase at the moment.

Reed

LexInVA
Apr. 30, 2010, 09:42 AM
The EXO is substantially less expensive than the Point Two Air Jacket. And you don't have to keep buying CO2 canisters.

I bought an EXO off the rack. It fits me perfectly. However, I have a tiny, tiny ribcage and my EXO is an average size.

Yes, the P2 is more expensive, especially if you're buying it and a new body protector at the same time which can easily run you over 1K, but I was speaking of the cost of the Exo relative to a normal non-rigid body protector which is what it's competition was back when the product had any sort of legs under it and was being promoted. The question was "Why hasn't the Exo caught on?" The P2 product doesn't factor into answering that question because it's brand new, relatively speaking, and the Exo vest was a relatively stillborn product after it came out despite the merits it had over your average vest. Back when it was being pushed, all of the factors I listed (especially the cost) were what was working against it being widely adopted in addition to the fact that the people behind the product didn't have the resources to get it out there in the public eye. At this point, people haven't bought many P2 Air Jackets yet because of the cost, but that will change now that every online retailer is signed up to carry the product and there are competing products in the pipeline.

JanWeber
Apr. 30, 2010, 10:41 AM
The Hit Air jacket is about half the price of the Point Two. Canisters are also half the price.

gully's pilot
Apr. 30, 2010, 11:40 AM
Other than price, what's the difference between the two?

JanWeber
Apr. 30, 2010, 12:48 PM
From what I understand, the Point Two inflates inward (towards the wearer) and the Hit Air inflates outwards (away fromt he wearer). You'd have to talk to someone who has tried both - it's rumored that some riders who were given the Point Two vests opted to purchase the Hit Air instead.

FrittSkritt
Apr. 30, 2010, 12:50 PM
My EXO was about $200 less than a Point 2 vest.


Same here. I got an incredible deal on mine... sadly I've decided I picked a size too big, so I have to sell mine, but I'm getting the next smaller size as soon as I do. ;)

SevenDogs
Apr. 30, 2010, 12:53 PM
From what I understand, the Point Two inflates inward (towards the wearer) and the Hit Air inflates outwards (away fromt he wearer). You'd have to talk to someone who has tried both - it's rumored that some riders who were given the Point Two vests opted to purchase the Hit Air instead.

I have heard this claim (about inflating outward) before. However, there would need to be some sort of structural support, capable of maintaining the same space between the rider and the vest before and after inflation, for this claim to be true. I don't believe either vest contains such a structure.

Correct me if I am wrong.

deltawave
Apr. 30, 2010, 12:54 PM
Fritt, what sized human would yours fit? Maybe someone 5'8", about 155 pounds? :D

Teddy's Mom
Apr. 30, 2010, 01:32 PM
After reading Buck endorse the P2 jacket, that most of the Rolex riders were wearing some type of air jacket and reading the thread here and on Horse and Hound, I'm still uncertain what type of new air jacket or the EXO is best to help prevent catastrophic injury resulting from falls over fences, rotational or not. Is it best to wait a bit until more scientific data is available on these jackets? Money is no object if one of these new vests gives greater protection to the life and limb of my loved one. I too, believe OT must have had a guardian angel on this shoulder at Rolex.

Kitters
Apr. 30, 2010, 01:36 PM
I am not know for a guy who does not tell things that are wrong.

This sentence is absolutely breaking my brain! What does it mean?!

LexInVA
Apr. 30, 2010, 01:59 PM
This sentence is absolutely breaking my brain! What does it mean?!

He says that he's not the kind of person who says things that aren't right. Meaning, in this case, he has evidence that contradicts what others are saying and is sticking by it to form his statements. Gnep-speak is an art as well as a science so not everyone can get it. :lol:

Gnep
Apr. 30, 2010, 05:47 PM
Well beta than me asking ya abou' horsy lesson wit sum ufda equestrians wundas, don tsha think so honey.

Janet
Apr. 30, 2010, 07:48 PM
I was at the Hokenheim Ring when one of his drivers died, because the brillinat design had a flaw. I have never been to Hockenheim, but I was in the pits at the Glen when Jackie Stewart retired. We were there for the Vintage race.

gully's pilot
Apr. 30, 2010, 07:49 PM
Wow, Gnep, what's scary is that I understand your second message!

I'm skeptical about the inward vs. outward claims. I've tried on a non-inflated Point 2--it looks like a flat ziploc bag, if you will. Or a pillowcase. Seams around the edges, no pleats. So when it inflates, it looks like an inflated ziploc bag.

I have to admit I'm a fan of these things. I haven't bought one yet--my husband is like RAyers in that he doesn't think highly of unproven technology--but I like the idea. I think they're nifty.

OT made the front of SportsIllustrated with a two-page photo spread of his horse landing on his head. The photo looks worse blown up than small. Whatever saved him, that is one lucky man.

Gnep
Apr. 30, 2010, 09:37 PM
whats sa scarry about that if I speak lika anglo.

But let me give the others an explan, mabe they dig it than. When OT the hair tussler, lawn darted and was turtel, he had not blown jet. He had the sh.t knocked outa him and was in lala land, ya still witme.
So than that clumsy thing he was jockeying, came down and planted his fat ass on the dude. Not really fully, just on his left side.
That was de moment when he got blown.
Clumsy was still goin an when it slipped over his shoulder and bent that thing down it broke something. But the tussler was still in the process of geting blown.

When clumsy landed on his ass, one bank down, the dude was fully blown.
Evrybody dig that now ?

An when I sais this, people on tis board know I aint not know to pull any crap on people when it comes to sh.t like that

An when OT sais that it saved his a$$ than that is baloony, cause he was in lala Land.
An that clip from them guys with the blow thing on youtube indicates that geting blown saved OT the hair tusslers a$$ is pushing the limits.


Ya know like the promo for them logs on the board.

Now everybody git it

Gnep
Apr. 30, 2010, 09:46 PM
I have never been to Hockenheim, but I was in the pits at the Glen when Jackie Stewart retired. We were there for the Vintage race.

Janet in a differant live and a very differant world a long time ago I ran around the world with a camera in my hand. Been to most racetracks, F1, Endurance, 24h, 1000kilometers, 12h and so on and when they did not race I went some other places.
I lived and breathed motor racing, I still love it

Madeline
May. 1, 2010, 12:26 AM
... But when you look at the injury and accident rates in Europe, Australia and the US, you see a definite trend in injury types, indicating some different aspect in the biomechanics of the incident. For instance, the primary method of death in a motorcycle accident is cervical dislocation (separating the head from body at the atlas and axis) from the rider hitting face first. Whereas in horses, it is head trauma (skull fracture, craniofacial fracture) from the rider hitting skull first. The added 3 meters of distance (average height of the head of the rider when on a "standard" 500 kg horse) allows for a modified fall/rotation.

Reed

Not to be picky, but I believe that the first poster who mentioned motorcycle vests was referring to motocross. Unlike road racing, this sport invilves falls from height, impact from other competitors ( and your own "mount") and a bit of time spent at comparable speeds. I wouldn't think that road racing or any road type accessories for a MC would apply, but I would look pretty closely at motocross safety equipment. It needs to do much of the same stuff, and there are thousands more people testing it on a daily basis than there are eventers.

Gnep
May. 1, 2010, 12:59 AM
Not to be picky, but I believe that the first poster who mentioned motorcycle vests was referring to motocross. Unlike road racing, this sport invilves falls from height, impact from other competitors ( and your own "mount") and a bit of time spent at comparable speeds. I wouldn't think that road racing or any road type accessories for a MC would apply, but I would look pretty closely at motocross safety equipment. It needs to do much of the same stuff, and there are thousands more people testing it on a daily basis than there are eventers.

show me one pro mot rider that has this vest on, ther is not one, zerro.

The ony ones that wear that vest are leisure riders.
And I have jet to see one in the US.

riderboy
May. 1, 2010, 08:39 AM
Reed has tantalized me with this talk of a German engineered safety vest. Reiterprotekteur? Wassup with that? If anything, the Germans tend to over-engineer which may be a very good thing for us.

Madeline
May. 1, 2010, 10:40 AM
show me one pro mot rider that has this vest on, ther is not one, zerro.

The ony ones that wear that vest are leisure riders.
And I have jet to see one in the US.

I wasn't saying that pro motocross riders were wearing inflatable vests, only suggesting that the world of motocross might have generated some safety equipment that would be worthwhile investigating for eventers.

UKYeventer
May. 1, 2010, 12:38 PM
From what I understand, the Point Two inflates inward (towards the wearer) and the Hit Air inflates outwards (away fromt he wearer). You'd have to talk to someone who has tried both - it's rumored that some riders who were given the Point Two vests opted to purchase the Hit Air instead.

I have tried both, when the Point Two was inflated I felt as though I had the wind knocked out of me, it was very tight and painful on my chest and hips. I tried on the Hit Air and it made me feel very secure but not in pain. When I tried the Point Two on they told me that is was a little on the big side for me (as I am small at 5') I would have hated to have one on that was even smaller!

riderboy
May. 2, 2010, 11:45 AM
I just wanted to share this for what it's worth. I confess, I bought a point two air vest last year after a particularly ugly XC schooling with my boy. I haven't worn it at a show but I have at a schooling. I have never deployed it but after hearing and reading about how tight it gets I thought I would.
So yesterday I put in on over my regular vest and pulled the lanyard. It was tight, but not as tight as I expected (I would definitely wear it loose) and I could take a deep breath but not a very deep, deep breath. Not bad. The thing that surprised me was how really firm, almost rigid the vest was, sort of like one of those inflatable Zodiac rubber rafts. The pros and cons of these vest have been exhaustively discussed here. I just wonder if they may not have some place in the arsenal of rider protection, at least until something better becomes more available. Just my two cents worth.

SR Rider
May. 4, 2010, 08:41 AM
I posted this under another thread...but here is video of a vest inflating after a fall into the water at Badminton...both horse and rider were okay

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2ZVsChwAds

NMK
May. 4, 2010, 02:34 PM
What's with the extra $$ to buy the leash that attaches the saddle? Really, spending $400 and then the extra is rather insulting...what good is it without the leash. Sheesh

N

JanWeber
May. 4, 2010, 02:40 PM
My guess is so that when you lose it, you can just buy the replacement. If I recall correctly, the Hit Air comes with the "lanyard" and one canister.

NMK
May. 4, 2010, 04:17 PM
From BOB "Hit Air Saddle Strap must be purchased separately"
is that the same as the lanyard?

JanWeber
May. 4, 2010, 06:26 PM
I didn't buy the Hit Air through BoB - bought through another distributor. There's a link on Doug Payne's website, I believe - www.dpequestrian.com

JER
May. 4, 2010, 06:57 PM
Reed has tantalized me with this talk of a German engineered safety vest. Reiterprotekteur? Wassup with that? If anything, the Germans tend to over-engineer which may be a very good thing for us.

Except the Reiterprotekteur is Austrian. :D

FEI presentation (http://www.fei.org/sites/default/files/file/DISCIPLINES/EVENTING/Safety/NSO%20Hartpury%20AUT%20Presentation%202009.pdf). Dr. Peter Panzenbock's site (http://www.panzenboeck.com/intro.htm).

riderboy
May. 4, 2010, 08:38 PM
Except the Reiterprotekteur is Austrian. :D

FEI presentation (http://www.fei.org/sites/default/files/file/DISCIPLINES/EVENTING/Safety/NSO%20Hartpury%20AUT%20Presentation%202009.pdf). Dr. Peter Panzenbock's site (http://www.panzenboeck.com/intro.htm).

Oops, my bad. It SOUNDED German. Anyway, hopefully those clever Austrians can come up with something I can fit into.

maudie
May. 4, 2010, 09:01 PM
I think it's an excelent idea. I mean, if you have the money, why not take an extra measure to ensure safety? If I had 600 dollars to blow, I'd definetely buy one, even though I've never jumped +3'. I almost broke my neck falling off a 13.2 hand pony on the flat, I think one of those vests would have certainly helped me out there.

JER
May. 4, 2010, 09:27 PM
I almost broke my neck falling off a 13.2 hand pony on the flat, I think one of those vests would have certainly helped me out there.

How, exactly?

(I don't suppose you've actually read this whole thread or any of the others on this inflatable garment. :))