Pretty sad state of affairs.

[Equibrit]

Government finally admits: hunt ban is part of the class struggle
By Melissa Kite, Deputy Political Editor
(Filed: 21/11/2004)

A member of the Government admits today that the hunting ban is driven by old-fashioned class warfare and is, at its heart, a bitter battle for control of Britain.

Writing in The Telegraph, Peter Bradley, the parliamentary private secretary to Alun Michael, the rural affairs minister, reveals that the real reason that Labour MPs feel so strongly about the ban is because it is aimed at killing 'the old order' and is the first time in history that a Labour government has taken on 'the gentry'.
Mr Bradley says: 'We ought at last to own up to it: the struggle over the Bill was not just about animal welfare and personal freedom: it was class war.'

The MP for The Wrekin adds that it was the 'toffs' who declared war on Labour by resisting the ban, but agrees that both sides are battling for power, not animal welfare.

'This was not about the politics of envy but the polities of power. Ultimately it's about who governs Britain.'

Mr Bradley's comments are in stark contrast to statements from ministers, who have always claimed that the Act to ban hunting with hounds is about protecting wildlife.

Mr Bradley, 51, admits that he personally sees the campaign to save hunting as an assault on his right to govern as a Labour MP. He protests that the hunting cause is made up of 'the privileged minority which for centuries ran this country from the manor houses of rural England' and tried to keep people like him "in our place'.

'The placards of the Countryside Alliance plead 'Listen to Us' but what they mean is 'Do What We Say' - as for centuries we have. But that old order no longer prevails.'

He accuses hunt campaigners of staging 'the last hurrah of the feudal system' and trying to preserve 'the age-old privileges of land ownership', a fight which he condemns as futile.

'Labour governments have come and gone and left little impression on the gentry. But a ban on hunting touches them. It threatens their inalienable right to do as they please on their own land. For the first time, a decision of a Parliament they don't control has breached their wrought-iron gates.

'The old families have come to realise that though they may still own the country, they are no longer running it.'

Preparations to resist the ban, which was forced through Parliament last week, are gaining pace. When it comes into force on February 19, 10 days before the end of the season, hunts will go out as usual with 50,000 people preparing to break the new law then challenge police to charge them.

[Equibrit]

Government finally admits: hunt ban is part of the class struggle
By Melissa Kite, Deputy Political Editor
(Filed: 21/11/2004)

A member of the Government admits today that the hunting ban is driven by old-fashioned class warfare and is, at its heart, a bitter battle for control of Britain.

Writing in The Telegraph, Peter Bradley, the parliamentary private secretary to Alun Michael, the rural affairs minister, reveals that the real reason that Labour MPs feel so strongly about the ban is because it is aimed at killing 'the old order' and is the first time in history that a Labour government has taken on 'the gentry'.
Mr Bradley says: 'We ought at last to own up to it: the struggle over the Bill was not just about animal welfare and personal freedom: it was class war.'

The MP for The Wrekin adds that it was the 'toffs' who declared war on Labour by resisting the ban, but agrees that both sides are battling for power, not animal welfare.

'This was not about the politics of envy but the polities of power. Ultimately it's about who governs Britain.'

Mr Bradley's comments are in stark contrast to statements from ministers, who have always claimed that the Act to ban hunting with hounds is about protecting wildlife.

Mr Bradley, 51, admits that he personally sees the campaign to save hunting as an assault on his right to govern as a Labour MP. He protests that the hunting cause is made up of 'the privileged minority which for centuries ran this country from the manor houses of rural England' and tried to keep people like him "in our place'.

'The placards of the Countryside Alliance plead 'Listen to Us' but what they mean is 'Do What We Say' - as for centuries we have. But that old order no longer prevails.'

He accuses hunt campaigners of staging 'the last hurrah of the feudal system' and trying to preserve 'the age-old privileges of land ownership', a fight which he condemns as futile.

'Labour governments have come and gone and left little impression on the gentry. But a ban on hunting touches them. It threatens their inalienable right to do as they please on their own land. For the first time, a decision of a Parliament they don't control has breached their wrought-iron gates.

'The old families have come to realise that though they may still own the country, they are no longer running it.'

Preparations to resist the ban, which was forced through Parliament last week, are gaining pace. When it comes into force on February 19, 10 days before the end of the season, hunts will go out as usual with 50,000 people preparing to break the new law then challenge police to charge them.

[WNT]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When it comes into force on February 19, 10 days before the end of the season, hunts will go out as usual with 50,000 people preparing to break the new law then challenge police to charge them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where do I sign up.

[J Swan]

Actually, there are a lot of US foxhunters over there right now - preparing to violate the Ban.

[alabama3870]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Equibrit:

He protests that the hunting cause is made up of 'the privileged minority which for centuries ran this country from the manor houses of rural England' and tried to keep people like him &quot;in our place'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess this guy had no idea that most hunt supporters are just regular working people, hardly the stereotypical "toffs" they're imagining.....

[Equibrit]

Its amazing what bigots can achieve when they get together. Its just another example of reducing to the lowest common denominator. That way EVERYBODY is mediocre!

[SimplySarah]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Actually, there are a lot of US foxhunters over there right now - preparing to violate the Ban. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I WISH I could have been there!

[rizlakingsize]

Actually its a pretty happy state of affairs http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif thank god for feb 19th what a very happy day im so happy that the government passed this anti hunting law its way overdue. Although these silly idiots prancing around on their horses with annoying silly horns will be breaking the law and how can it be called a sport?? where as the sport in several "hunters" (i use the term hunter loosely) chasing a fox with hundreds of hounds for miles until its exhausted then multilating the defenceless animal!! how can that butchery be called a sport???? how can there be sportsmanship in ripping a defenceless animal apart??? it beggars belife

[ShotenStar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rizlakingsize:
... how can that butchery be called a sport???? how can there be sportsmanship in ripping a defenless animal apart??? it beggars belife </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and how is it 'sport' or respectful of life to trap, poison, or shoot the same foxes? None of these forms of fox hunting were outlawed. And what about the foxes that are killed by cars? Shall we ban driving thru the countryside next?

*star*

[rizlakingsize]

there of couse is no sport in trapping , poisoning or shooting either imo there should be more of the safe tunnels on country roads built for allowing the foxes to move under the roads. + a fox killed by being hit by a car is more humane than setting dogs on it to rip it open, at least 9 times outta ten its instant when hit by a car as with dogs ripping apart a fox while its still alive is barbaric and sickening i agree that foxes may need to be culled as to control its population but hunting with dogs isnt the answer im more for the injecting of foxes to make them sterile this has been proven to reduce numbers of fox population in the past as is much more humane than hunting with dogs

[Painted Wings]

Here's an article on MS NBC

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6997868/

Methinks we have some trolls in our midst.

[rizlakingsize]

Methinks we have some trolls in our midst. ???

im allowed to have my own opinion i just cant see where the enjoment is in ripping a fox apart it is a disgusting bloodthirsty act and i hate the thought of what pain and misery the fox is going through



times change and its long overdue that this ancient so called "sport" is dead and buried

[Equibrit]

Oh NO - an anti on the COTH board! Is that allowed??

Where do these people get their wierd opinions?? Certainly NOT from experience, or we'd be hunting them!

[rizlakingsize]

hunting us? lol dont think so mate because there would be more even odds then, and you guys only like killing with 100-1 odds is your favour

[Equibrit]

Sorry all that toffs and the workers stuff doesn't carry much weight in the USA. You are obviously an uneducated moron whose only quest is to cause trouble on this board. I don't think you'll last very long.

[fernie fox]

rizlakingsize.

With your ideas,how about you support introducing something like "mixamatosis",to control the #s.

As you live in the West Country there are plenty of foxes to deal with down there.

Or are you a townie and dont venture into the country very often.

I hope you pay enough taxes to help support the folks that will be out of a job.

[Glimmerglass]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rizlakingsize:
times change and its long overdue that this ancient so called "sport" is dead and buried </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wonder if the anti-hunt folks are going to work equally hard to outlaw the killing of fox by gun, trap, gas, and explosives of the den. All four are viable legal means today in the UK. I truly think none of these efforts by the antis were about protecting a single fox.

Class warfare pure and simple.

Last I checked in all these debates not a single group or politician was ever looking to reclassify the fox as anything but a varmit and pest which can be destroyed. Even good old Tony (who will lose the next election) wouldn't be so foolish as to protect the fox.

So there you have it - severly weakening the countryside economy further and accelerating the more effective means of killing the fox.

[Equibrit]

I wonder if the fox appreciates the distinction - death by hound or bullet? The only difference now, is that the huntsman has to carry a gun!


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4280015.stm

[rizlakingsize]

yes i do venture into the countryside and yes i do hope that all the other means of hunting foxes u mentioned is banned aswell i live about a mile away from the nearest countryside. imo a fox isnt a pest its just another creature doing what it does to survive that was here long before we were here. im all for hunting with hounds but not foxes change it so that its these "hunters" being the hunted by hundreds of dogs then ill be a keen hunter

[SimplySarah]

Hounds are natural predators of fox.

So you'd rather that fox be killed by an unnatural mean, then have them killed by a natural predator?

I think you're funny. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Glimmerglass]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rizlakingsize:
im all for hunting with hounds but not foxes change it so that its these "hunters" being the hunted by hundreds of dogs then ill be a keen hunter </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are suggesting man-hunting? Are you daft? One too many Boddingtons this evening? I dare say that for someone who suggests he/she is James Harriot in loving all creatures great and small this suggestion is rather not in keeping your prior statements.

Until England becomes a nation of vegitarians, I dare say that butcher shops, chicken processing plants and the like all engage in some form of ending an animal's life. Like it or not, mankind does kill for our own reasons.

[fernie fox]

Well next time you Venture into the countryside,go and talk to a farmer who has had a fox break into his chicken house,or talk to the shepherd whose lambs have been half chewed up by a fox.

[rizlakingsize]

i would just like to ask you guys to look at this site and read all the text and if can handle the shocking photographs there at the bottom of the page, this is why i feel the way i do about fox hunting
tell the farmer to get a more secure chicken house
its just eating to survive its not the fox getting personal against the farmer


www.acigawis.freeserve.co.uk/toppage1.htm (http://www.acigawis.freeserve.co.uk/toppage1.htm)

[Equibrit]

Activists may record hunt plotters in pubs

Owen Bowcott and Sandra Laville
Saturday February 19, 2005
The Guardian

A leading animal rights group yesterday revealed that it might secretly tape record conversations in rural pubs to gather intelligence, and urged the public to inform the police about illegal hunting with hounds.

Launching its Hunt Crime Watch programme, the League Against Cruel Sports promised it would send out teams of monitors equipped with video cameras to ensure that the Hunting Act was effectively enforced.

The trespass laws, it insisted, would not prevent it collecting evidence.

The plans to pursue those breaking the ban emerged shortly after tensions between hunters and hunt saboteurs flared into violence late in Sussex late on Thursday night. Police fear there may be further clashes tomorrow when around 250 hunts are due to ride out in protest against the law.

"The league did not campaign for 80 years for a ban on the barbarity of hunting with dogs just to watch bloodsports enthusiasts flout the law," said the organisation's chief executive, Douglas Batchelor yesterday.

"We will be watching. The public will be watching. Lawbreakers will be prosecuted."

Many hunts have declared they intend to "test" the new legislation, confident that it will prove difficult for the police to distinguish between a legal drag hunt following a pre-laid scent and a pack of hounds on the trail of a live fox.

The League Against Cruel Sports believes it will be relatively simple to catch illegal hunts. "Under the right to roam you can see an awful lot of the countryside," explained Mr Batchelor. "We can film with the cameras we have from up to a mile away.

"If people think that once they have gone behind the farm gate they are out of sight of evidence gatherers, they are in for a nasty shock. We will go around before the hunts to see if they are stopping up [foxes'] earths. We will go to the local pubs to see what conversations are being held. If they are [planning], that's a criminal conspiracy and it can carry a prison sentence of up to life."

Asked whether tape recorders might be used to record conversations in country pubs, he said "yes".

Every hunt in the country would be monitored, Mr Batchelor insisted. Evidence of crimes would be handed over to the police. "If people are not prepared to go to the police, we will handle their information anonymously." If the authorities refused to bring prosecutions, the league said, then it would launch private actions. It has already accumulated sufficient legal funds.

The violence in West Sussex came as the Chiddingfold, Leconfield and Cowdray Hunt was nearing the end of its last day's legal hunting. According to witnesses, who did not want to be named, tempers frayed in the pheasant copse within Petworth Park. "The antis had been shouting all day, we've won, we've won and I think some of the foot followers just went for them," said a source close to the hunt.

One hunt monitor, who declined to be identified, arrived on the scene shortly afterwards. He said his car was nearly rammed by a four-wheel-drive vehicle. "Two hunt saboteurs sustained serious head injuries after being attacked by men wielding sticks," he said. "One of them had to be dragged out of the park by colleagues while still unconscious. I'm amazed there hasn't been a death yet. It's getting very close to it out there."


These people have lost it!


rizla - we are all active hunters and have experience - unlike you. Why do you think that looking at your propaganda would make any difference. We know the full and CORRECT story. You'd best be careful using a name like that - people will think you're a doper!

[SimplySarah]

Okay. I read it all. I saw all the pictures.
It's propoganda.
What was the point of having us read it?

[fernie fox]

Well "rizlakingsize"

You must be very pleased with the change in the law.

Now the fox will be dug out of it's den and shot ,as per the law.

[rizlakingsize]

what i see in the photos is proof of sicking bloodthirsty acts of bloodlust how can anyone condone what these hunters did to this defenless animal???

hounds are not the natural predator of the fox nearly all natural fox predators in this country has been made extinct, the only natural fox predator left in the uk is the golden eagle

[rizlakingsize]

i thought i would post this up as our native red fox diet dosent only consist of lambs and chickens as alot of people think actually think -
I suspect one could fill an entire book volume with the different items that foxes have been known to consume. One study on red foxes found that they had eaten 34 different mammal species, 14 species of bird, 15 families of insects and 21 species of plants. present in 85% of fox scats collected. Small mammal remains were the second most abundant, found in almost 80% of droppings. Vegetation and seeds were found in 36% of scats, while both bird and reptile remains appeared in 2.4%.

Sufficed to say, foxes are extraordinarily opportunistic, omnivorous feeders that prey predominantly on small mammals -- especially rodents (rats, mice, voles and the occasional squirrel) and lagomorphs (rabbits & hares) --, birds, insects (especially beetles during the summer months), earthworms, carrion, fruit and berries (in the autumn, especially blackberries). Foxes will also take fish and eggs if they are available. Foxes living in coastal regions will search the beach and peripheral environs for shore crabs, dead fish and seabirds. A substantial part of a newly weaned fox cub’s diet is composed of oligochaetes (earthworms) and foxes also seem to have a penchant for rat-tailed maggots, hoverfly larvae (both found in stagnant water) and crane flies (daddy-longlegs). In urban areas, foxes are known to raid dustbins for scraps (although less frequently than most people realise), and will occasionally breach smallholding security to gain access to chickens and possibly pet rabbits or guinea pigs.

Urban foxes may also raid bird tables for crusts of bread, or feed on worms surfacing on lawns during wet weather. According to the DEFRA (2002) report on ‘Urban Foxes in Britain’ about 33% (one-third) of an urban fox’s diet is either scavenged or deliberately provided by householders. Dead or dying foxes are occasionally cannibalized and foxes will eat grasses -- such as Cock's Foot (Dactylis glomerata) --, which may serve to remove tapeworms.

[Painted Wings]

I have lost beloved pet ducks, geese, and cats to the local fox and coyote population. When they get over populated because as you pointed out yourself, they have few natural predators, they start looking for new sources of food. I have even found up to four coyotes stalking my horses. The fox or coyote provides no better fate to my beloved pets than the hounds provide to them. Nature is not kind. Our hunt has not had a kill in well over 15 years anyway. At least they have driven some of the coyotes away from our farm so that we can keep our cats around for their prescribed job of rodent control. When the coyotes were so bad earlier and all the cats had been killed, the rodent population went out of control. Now, since we have the hunt in our area and a skilled huntsman, we can keep our cats and maintain the rodent population at a reasonable level without resorting to traps and poison.

[J Swan]

rizlakingsize -

You don't need to teach foxhunters about foxes. Most foxhunters, and particularly huntsmen, know more about the natural environment in general, and foxes in particular, than the majority of the population.

I must take exception to you characterizing the death of the fox as "being ripped to shreds", as if it's some slow, agonizing torture. The death of a fox at the hands of a predator is generally a quick bite to the neck resulting in quick death. If a hound or hounds dismember and consume the dead animal afterwards - that is a FAR CRY from what you describe and is completely natural. Shame on you for such inflammatory rhetoric.

What upsets me about "anti's" is their lack of knowledge about the natural world. Nature is red in tooth and claw - more like the Lions of the Serengeti than Bambi. Also, the tendency to anthromoporphize is unfair to all animals, domestic or wild. A fox, or any other wild animal, lives in a world far different from ours. To try and remake his image to fit our human ideals of "happiness", "safety", or "love" is alien and does the animal a disservice. Their concepts of such things is much different than ours. Don't try and turn them into humans.

Humans are becoming more and more removed from the natural world. Many of us no longer understand how it works, how our activities impact it, or how the beauty of it is balanced by sickness and death or other horrors.

Our food is homongenized, pasteurized, shrink wrapped, and displayed in handsome cases. We "hunt" in the grocery aisle. We love nature until it craps in our front yard - then it has to go.

We love nature yet no longer understand it. Nature is now clipped and groomed and landscaped, complete with cute fuzzy animals that apparantly don't eat each other.

People who hunt have more in common with their prey than you do. They participate in the natural world in a way you do not understand; therefore you condemn it.

[Equibrit]

Whoever said this was about foxes?????? Its about one group of vindictive small minded people trying to impose their will on another group they view with envy and malice.



Fallout over hunt ban's first day



Up to 270 hunts were out in England and Wales


Hunters have claimed a successful day of "legal" hunting and protest against the hunting ban in England and Wales.

But anti-hunt campaigners said there had been widespread intimidation of activists monitoring hunts.

Countryside Alliance chairman John Jackson said the day had been a "massive demonstration by the rural community of support for hunting".

The League Against Cruel Sports claimed the new act had been broken but said the numbers of foxes killed had fallen.

Arrests made

Mr Jackson told BBC News people turned out "to show en masse that the Hunting Act was a bad law".

He said foxes and other animals had been killed "legally, so far as I know".

Thousands of hunt supporters turned out at 270 hunts around the country on the first day of the ban, with anti-hunt groups sending out 100 monitors to check the law was not being broken.



WAYS TO HUNT LEGALLY

Hunting rabbits or rats instead of foxes or hares

Using no more than two dogs to flush out a fox to be shot

Drag or trail hunting (using an artificial scent to hunt with hounds)

Using hounds to flush out a mammal to be hunted by a bird of prey

Exercising packs of hounds without using them to hunt

Using terriers to flush and shoot foxes, to protect gamebirds



There were only four arrests - over hunting hares in Wiltshire - although it was not clear whether they were made under the Hunting Act.

They have been released on bail but police say they may face prosecution under new poaching laws.

One anti-hunt protester was taken to hospital after a violent clash in Kent.

The man suffered facial injuries after an incident involving a group of men at the end of the East Kent Hunt, near Ashford.

Monitor Penny Little, who monitored the Bicester Hunt in Oxfordshire, said she had witnessed "gratuitous, spiteful killing of foxes".

Video evidence

"If the hunting fraternity go out into the field and commit offences and attempt to run circles around this law, there is only one development that can occur from that, and that is a tightening of the law," she said.

Although hunting with dogs is now a criminal offence, exercising hounds, chasing a scent trail and flushing out foxes to be shot are still legal.

Mr Jackson, who had been at the Bicester hunt, denied there had been any intimidation.

Health Secretary John Reid said "people would be well-advised to follow the guidance of the Countryside Alliance" and hunt within the new law.

"When Parliament has spoken on a free vote, I think most people in this country recognise the law has to be obeyed," he told Sky News' Sunday with Adam Boulton.

Mike Hobday, from the League Against Cruel Sports, said video evidence of the law being broken would be passed onto police.

But he said the figure of 91 foxes killed - reported in some newspapers - would be a major reduction from the 400 killed on a typical Saturday during the season.

He said intimidation seemed to have been widespread and called on hunts to do more to stop their supporters intimidating anti-hunt activists videoing hunts.

"Being reluctant to have their activities being filmed is not a very good way of building public confidence."

[Tupa]

Rizlaking's fight, like most of the ban supporters, seems to have little or nothing to do with either the fox or protecting animals in general. Thier opinions of a fox's natural exsistance is often so childishly simple as to be unbelievable. These are people that result from this last century of city living. It is unlikely they have any real association with nature and instead believe all the natural world is much like a garden of eden where the only death and bloodshed are purely the result of cruel and ignorent people. This ban has little to do with the fox or any living creature. It has to do with control as we have seen over and over again in the news. In the article just shared one of the ban supporters commented on the fact that no law would prevent them from upholding the ban in any way possible. Back that up and play it again? Something there just does not make sense. I have a hard time seeing how they justify thier actions when time and time again they show a completely different message. How can you protect one animal while harming another (Look to several referances when ban supporters and anti's will cheerfully announce plans to whip the hounds or harm the horses to prevent the hunt from finding the fox.)

This is all of course my personal opinion. And I will continue to use my voice to support the right to hunt. I am sure these people like Rizlaking (whom I hope you will all ignore as he/she is most certainly a troll) will continue to pronounce thier love of animals and the rights there of, while ignorently abusing the very subject they claim to support. It amazes me, but unfourtunatly does not suprize me.

[xeroxchick]

I think the next logical step for the Antis is to protest and outlaw those cruel and horrendous killings by any wild carnivore. Just shocking behavior. Anyone who's watched a bobcat play with its meal will agree. Completely unnatural and the photos are unbearable.

[Coreene]

Ware anti!

[fernie fox]

Now That tickled my Funny Bone,how are you Coreene,I dont think I have ever seen you over here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm done playing with this TROLLOP.

Rizlakingsize.

Go make a "roll-up.

Enjoy.

Come back when your education has been completed,at the moment you are showing just how ignorant you are of the countryside and wildlife ways.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Tally ho

[rizlakingsize]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by xeroxchick:
I think the next logical step for the Antis is to protest and outlaw those cruel and horrendous killings by any wild carnivore.????

lol these wild carnivores are eating to survive,
are you saying that fox hunters are killing these foxes so they can eat them and feed there young on them to survive as if they dont they will die of starvation????

[rizlakingsize]

actually this wouldnt surprise me when i think about it they are mostly inbred rednecks living out in the sticks. these countryfolk remind me of the league of gentlemen lol

[J Swan]

Definitely a troll. You don't give a fig about foxes or wildlife in general, do you?

In cases such as thing I heartily recommend therapy and medication. I am convinced that people who "troll" on bulletin boards suffer from mental illness or unbelievable stupidity.

I don't think they have rednecks in the UK. It's a US thing - you wouldn't understand.

[fernie fox]

That is true JS.

Where trollop is from they have bumpkins[and lovely folks they are,salt of the earth],but she is a wurzel if ever there was. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Tupa]

You have to wonder if it's aware that should a bobcat find another bobcat in it's territory it will try to kill the interloper. And does not eat the kill afterward.

Any predator whose prey is being attacked and killed by another predator will defend it's living. So hunting and killing an animal that kills your lambs and poultry is ...... natural...

[Coreene]

Fernie, the only reason I do not currently hunt is because I do not have my own truck and trailer, otherwise I'd go out with the Rancho Santa Fe in Temecula. But defend hunting? You betcha. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Equibrit]

What i find worrying is the implications of this ban and the effect it will have on the natural balance. Whilst foxes have no natural predators they have to be kept in check by culling. That has been taken care of for 400 years by the hunts (must be working - the fox is still thriving). Take away the hunts and suddenly you have 400 more foxes per hunting week, per year, trying to survive on their natural prey. As the sick and injured foxes will now be at liberty, those with communicable deseases will now be free to share said deseases with the rest of the world. Not long before the pestilence finds its way to the West Country! Hunts performed these services free of charge to all taxpayers (including foxhugging city dwellers); in fact they pay to do it - because they enjoy the chase. THIS is what seems to be the problem - THEY ACTUALLY ENJOY IT - for some reason antis find that really insulting. With a ban in place the task of vermin and desease control falls to HM Government and the fox hugging tax payers. Ironic ain't it?

[J Swan]

Equibrit - this is a very interesting point. The fox seems to be thriving in the UK. I mean REALLY thriving.

What are they going to do when the population explodes? Here in the US we have a problem with white tailed deer in many parts of the country. No matter how much hunting is done the population is just exploding to the point that disease and malnutrition are a real problem; not to mention the number of deer/auto collisions.

And with urban sprawl, the deer are moving into such populated areas that they can't be safely culled by hunting. They are EVERYWHERE.Even folks who don't like hunting agree that something needs to be done.

And then there are always the urban refugees who build a McMansion in the country and proclaim they love nature. (until it craps in their front yard)

[OakesBrae]

I think, J Swan, that you have hit the nail on the head about the problem.

I do think some people genuinely believe that hunting is cruel, and some of them are smart people who have been taken in by propaganda. I know a few of those. Most of them don't realize the reality of the hunt vs. some of the more "accepted" methods of hunting. Some of them just don't believe animals should be hunted at all. Many of those are vegetarian, and some even don't wear leather.

But the real issue, I believe, is the people who move to the country who are not willing to accept the REALITY of the country. The mud, the muck, the wild animals, the things that must be done to manage all of those things. They are the ones with the yen to stop foxhunting under the pretext of cruelty, and with the money to successsfully get it stopped.

[J Swan]

OakesBrae - this is very much a problem where I live - folks from urban areas are moving into the country yet don't accept the realities of country life. To some, spring means the smell of wildflowers and lilacs. To me, it also means the smell of cow manure and the sound of tractors. Most newcomers like to see cows in the field next door, but don't like the smell, the cows breaking down fence and eating the expensive landscaping; not to mention skunks, weasels, fox, snakes, bears, loose livestock in the road, deer strapped to truck hoods, etc. That stuff isn't on postcards.

Folks don't know where food comes from anymore. It's not a criticsm, it's just ignorance. They make a lot of assumptions and value judgments that really have little basis in reality.

Foxhunting is right in there with those realities. How can I make people understand there is nothing wrong with it when those same people dress their dogs up have give them birthday parties?

Different realities. Which is ok - nothing wrong with that. What bothers me is the lack of respect the "anti" types have for my lifestyle.

"I don't like it so you can't do it" seems to be their mantra. Sorry - but I will not sit at the back of the bus!

[OakesBrae]

I concur, if the anti's could just say "it's different than what I would do", that'd be just fine.

People are weird about their values though - many people think there is "one right way" to do/think/act in general. Given that natural proclivity of most, plus the fact that the line between city and country is becoming more and more blurred, I think this is going to continue to be a problem. Not just for foxhunting, but for farming and hunting in general.

[rizlakingsize]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Equibrit:
What i find worrying is the implications of this ban and the effect it will have on the natural balance. Whilst foxes have no natural predators they have to be kept in check by culling. That has been taken care of for 400 years by the hunts (must be working - the fox is still thriving). Take away the hunts and suddenly you have 400 more foxes per hunting week, per year, trying to survive on their natural prey. As the sick and injured foxes will now be at liberty, those with communicable deseases will now be free to share said deseases with the rest of the world. Not long before the pestilence finds its way to the West Country! Hunts performed these services free of charge to all taxpayers (including foxhugging city dwellers); in fact they pay to do it - because they enjoy the chase. THIS is what seems to be the problem - THEY ACTUALLY ENJOY IT - for some reason antis find that really insulting. With a ban in place the task of vermin and desease control falls to HM Government and the fox hugging tax payers. Ironic ain't it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

okay i agree with that they need to be culled due to controlling there numbers and i agree that me and my alot of other anti's are repulsed by the way hunters enjoy it but i cant see that the way the fox is made to run to the point of exhaustion then being caught dug up and maybe not all the time but being bagged up urinating over itself from fear then being mauled by a pack of hounds is the way they should be culled theres much more humane ways to do this. i think this is a cruel immoral long out of date method of culling. Theres no need for this barbaric bloodsport to be in practice in this day and age.

[xeroxchick]

gag. Don't feed the troll. Obviously has never seen a fox killed *in person*. Nor her dinner "in this day and age."

[OakesBrae]

I'm not sure rizlake is a troll, but I do think that she/he is a little taken in by the propaganda.

Let me ask you, riz, are you vegan?

What would you propose as a more "humane" method?

[rizlakingsize]

well no i havnt seen my dinner killed before as im vegetarian, and i have been on antihunt protests so i have seen foxes killed by u lot and that site i posted is very truthfull judging by what i have witnessed on the protests i have attended

[rizlakingsize]

i dont eat meat , fish or any dairy products
and oakesbrae thankyou. i just feel strongly against fox hunting and hunting in general but i can see the reason for culling i just wish they used more stressfree humane methods to do it,

[Equibrit]

There is definitely no need for antis to practice hunting - but there is a need that it be practiced. I don't think that it really matters what your views are rizla - you can stay home and do whatever it is you do in the city, just don't go messing with other people. Your taxes will be paying to slaughter these animals if you have your way. You clearly have NO understanding of wildlife. Would that be stressfree for you - or the fox? Can you tell me how you have the amazing insight into how a fox "feels"?

[rizlakingsize]

and you have i take it???

im not asking for a totally stressfree life for the fox that would be completly ridiculous and unrealistic lol. theres just no need to hunt the fox in the way you do, why have you got to chase the fox to exhaustion and set packs of dogs on it??? yes culling is important but not in the inhumane ways you do it

[eventable]

I've ventured out of my habitual environment to post this. In NZ we don't have foxes, so we hunt hares instead, but I guess the general principles are the same, SO:

1. I grew up in the country and have lived most of my life on farms. So obviously the life cycle / food chain / killing things for food is a no-brainer for me.

2. I don't actually recall the last time my local hunt managed to make a kill. Perhaps not even within living memory. The hares are damn smart and they can be relied upon to know their own territory better than any visiting pack. As far as I am aware, most hunts also tend to hunt responsibly, otherwise how would they ensure that there would be prey for the next season? I.e. you go out cubbing but you don't kill the lot of them, right? So really hunting is more about responsible management of resources - making sure the healthiest and fittest survive and "culling" the weakest. Of course I'm probably going to get flamed for saying that!

3. Contrary to Rizla's assertion that hitting animals with cars is a quick, humane death, I can positively state this is not the case. If it was, I might not find myself "finishing off" severely injured animals so often in the country area where my horse currently resides. No, I'm not some kind of animal hating serial killer, but have come across animals such as rabbits and possums writhing in pain on the roadside after being hit by vehicles. They didn't look like they were enjoying their deaths. I personally feel that hounds would be a much quicker and less painful way to go.

Anyways, any of you in the UK affected by the ban would be more than welcome with any hunt in NZ. Come on over!

[rizlakingsize]

i didnt say cars hitting them was always a quick death i said most of the time it is. how can being bitten and savaged to death be a less painful death

[eventable]

I vote we test it on you.

[SeaShe]

&lt;i didnt say cars hitting them was always a quick death i said most of the time it is. how can being bitten and savaged to death be a less painful death&gt;

I think this is a fair statement. However, as someone pointed out earlier in the discussion, the hounds dispatch the prey quickly. The ripping apart is most likely done after the fox is already dead and does not suffer from it. In this case, certainly death by hounds is more merciful than suffering after being hit by a car if death did not come quickly.

I read the propaganda that riz posted and have to admit that the tactics described in the article seemed hardly sporting. However, since foxes are considered vermin in the UK, I'm not particularly bothered if I imagine a rat, which is vermin, in the place of the fox. That's my own prejudice. In the U.S., foxes in the west are very rare and are not hunted. I've seen one. Ever. I've seen more mountain lions, which are rare to see, than foxes.

My second objection about the propaganda is that I hope the tactics described are not particularly common. From what I've read, I doubt that is the case at least in the U.S. I like to think that most hunters anywhere are sportsman and prefer sport over torture. I personally would not hunt with a group that treated foxes in the manner described in the propaganda but those are my values.

In the meantime, now that I am a horse owner again, I hope to get out and hunt. Since I'm on the west coast that most likely means drag hunting but I'd like to go on a real, sporting hunt some day!

Corrina

[Equibrit]

Rizla<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and you have i take it??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't remember making that claim.

[eventable]

Another point re the humanity or otherwise of hunting with hounds - at least when the animal is killed it is a clean kill. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has seen animals which have been hunted with guns and escaped, only to die pretty horrifically of gangrene weeks later.

[atr]

I've got to ask, where DID that figure of 400 foxes on the average saturday come from? It seems incredibly high to me.

I'm an ex-pat Brit. I've hunted a few times in the past with some quite good packs, and I don't think we've ever had a kill.

Are there actually even 400 hunts in Britain nowadays?

[J Swan]

That figure does seems high; however since I have not hunted in the UK I don't know.

rizla, the phrase "running the hound to exaustion and ripping it apart" is quite a well known piece of propaganda. Here in the US, I have heard it from all sorts of AR groups; even local dog rescue groups.

To me, hearing that phrase used tells me a lot about the person uttering it. It tells me they support PETA and the HSUS - two groups that use this appalling phrase in all their publications. It also tells me that they are ignorant and not likely to listen to reason.

I've hunted since I was a kid. Squirrel hunting with my cousins, deer hunting with cousins and uncles, I've hunted rabbit with beagles (or whatever dog was in the back yard), and I've hunted fox for 2 seasons and rabbit with Bassets for 4.

I'll tell you the Lord's honest truth. With over 30 years experience as a hunter, naturalist, birdwatcher, and "redneck", I can tell you that the animal is not run to exhaustion and ripped to shreds while alive. Ok? It just doesn't work that way. There is no torturous slow agonizing death. Canines just don't kill their prey that way.

Those are emotionally charged words designed to inflame - just what AR groups want. Why let the truth get in the way?

Foxhunting is different in the US; we don't stop earth and we don't use terriers. However, it's a different culture and the fox has a different place in the ecology here. But in the wild, it is normal for a predator to enter into a den or other place that its prey hides.

I'll tell you one of the most fascinating thing about hunting with dogs in general. Watching any breed of scent hound work as a pack, see the strike hound, see who honors who - how they work out scent lines, distinguish old ones from new - is absolutely thrilling. You don't get that drag hunting - and anyway most of us, horses included, couldn't keep up with a drag hunt. The happiest, healthiest, most well adjusted dogs I've ever seen have been hunting dogs - of all breeds. They just thrive on it - much happier than dogs cooped up in yards.

But really, hunting with hounds is a very natural thing for both predator and prey. You may not like it; you may even find it horrific. That's why I say nature is red in tooth and claw.

Oh - I was a vegetarian for 15 years and only recently stopped due to some health troubles. Vegetarians hunt too. There's a joke here in the US that the word "vegetarian" is a Native American word for "bad hunter".

I'll tell you something else - do yourself and the animals in your life a big favor. Don't anthropomorphize. Learn how to see the world through the eyes of animals - not impose your morals and ethics upon them.

[Trakehner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rizlakingsize:
actually this wouldnt surprise me when i think about it they are mostly inbred rednecks living out in the sticks. these countryfolk remind me of the league of gentlemen lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And there you have it, by her own mouth. "Inbred Rednecks living out in the sticks" while she is a sensitive and oh-so educated city dweller, wise to what is important and anything she doesn't see as important is stupid.

I'd guess she's probably 19, full of herself, never paid her own way with mommy and daddy supporting her animal-facist tendencies. Her words scream out, "I'm spoiled, vacuous and not very bright...but all my friends agree with me so it must be true"

rizlakingsize, a girl from the UK,
Truly had nothing to say;
So she blathered and whined,
While on tofu she dined,
And like an ass continued to bray.

[OakesBrae]

While I very much appreciate the limerick Trak (in a literary sense), I'm not sure this is the right way to go about things...It only makes anti's dig their heels in further.

Look, rizlak - I'm saying this as someone who has been there. I grew up thinking that all of those organizations had it right, that really everyone who hunted (and I don't just mean foxhunted)/ate meat etc. were just cruel human beings who were unenlightened etc.

Then I grew up.

I spent time with non-redneck hunters and farmers and redneck hunters and farmers alike. I thought about what was "natural" and what was "not natural". I spent a LOT of time thinking about it because the whole system bothered me.

What I came up with was that OF the methods of hunting/killing, foxhunting is one of the LEAST "unnatural". Hounds are able to catch the least likely to survive foxes, the weak, the infirmed and sometimes the "less smart". This is GOOD for the foxes. Just like in the wild, the wolves catch the prey that are least beneficial to the society of animals as a whole.

I think there are many far worse things that you can concentrate your efforts on. If you are concerned, look at factory farming, which, if done poorly, can be inhumane. Keep practices at slaughterhouses humane - they aren't always inhumane, but they aren't always humane either.

Traditional farming and hunting are by far the most humane ways, the most natural ways, for population and animal control. Look outside Humane Society and PETA literature. It's hard to find, because anti's tend to put out lots of literature and "logic" puts out little.

Riz, I'm sure you're a smart gal, just go think about this a little bit more and put it in context! :-)

[Equibrit]

The figure of 400 foxes came from H&H.

[J Swan]

Thanks, Equibrit - you know more about foxhunting in the UK - is that figure abnormally high, average, normal, is it accounting for by a kill or running to ground or what?

I've gotten reports from American hunting to show support for their UK brethern and they confirm that fox are still being killed - which comes as no surprise to anyone with an average IQ. Seems to me that letting the hounds quickly kill it is much more civilized than what the law is allowing now. But who am I to say?

I was out Saturday driving around and counted no less than 10 dead red fox in the side of the road; and more than 20 skunks. I lost count of the dead deer - even more ran a bit before collapsing I'm sure. That was on a stretch of secondary road measuring about ten miles or so. Breaks my heart to see that much wildlife run over. I've had to shoot several deer, some maimed cats - and the most horrible - helping hold down a deer while its jugular was cut because we didn't have a gun handy. The moron that hit the deer kept screaming into his cell phone that the "fu__ing deer had fu__ed up his car and he was in the middle of fu__ing nowwhere" while the folks who stopped to render assistance (who are inbred rednecks according to rizla) located and dispatched the deer. Hmmm... seems like the inbred rednecks were the most compassionate people on the scene!

[WNT]

I shudder to think of the millions of carrots ripped heartlessly from the nice warm and nourishing earth they grew up in...

[rizlakingsize]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WNT:
I shudder to think of the millions of carrots ripped heartlessly from the nice warm and nourishing earth they grew up in... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you are funny

theres no need to slate me because im a veggie its up to me what i eat.
im not totaly against hunting im just against hunting the way you do it, as posted ealier it was said by J Swan - Humans are becoming more and more removed from the natural world.
yes i agree with that we have evolved into a animal which do not need to hunt to survive.
but i agree theres also need to control the number of foxes in the wild. i know a number of people who have access to alot of farmers land who are allowed to hunt foxes there, but not with hounds, traps ,poisoning or shooting they use a more natural way of hunting which is maybe not totaly but is much more stressfree and quick, its over before the fox knows it most of the time as a few escape now and then. the way they hunt is with a natural predator which due to humans was made extinct here long ago. The predator they use is the beautiful european eagle owl and before anyone asks yes they all have years of falconry experience. The farmer who allows them to hunt prefers this method as he isnt in favor with hunting with hounds

[J Swan]

rizla - the distinction you make is due to anthropomorphizing the fox. A very common and understandable error. The fox, though a very intelligent mammal, does not make such distinction. Food is food. Shelter is shelter. Water is water. Predator is a Predator. Death is death. From the foxes perspective, death from above (raptor) is death from a bite to the neck (canine).

I think what bothers you is human participation in that death. But that's where our paths diverge. To me, a human being is a predator. Being removed from the natural world has not done us a heck of a lot of good. However, should people choose to live in urban environments it's none of my business and I wholly support you. But you cross the line when you stop me from living a different lifestyle. That's infringement upon my liberties and I won't tolerate it. Whether it's my choice of vehicle, sexual orientation, clothing, politics - it doesn't matter. You are free to pursue your happiness. Don't deny me the freedom to pursue mine.

You make an error in logic when you say humans don't need to hunt to survive. The instinct is still there - and very strong. Think about it. When you are searching for the ultimate bargain during a shoe sale. What is your reaction when you find THE ultimate bargain? What does your brain do? How about researching or learning a new subject?

The drive to hunt, to seek, to obtain - all those are hardwired in our brains. Your choice (and my choice as well) to be a vegetarian is a lifestyle choice - not an evolutionary one.

I don't want to be removed from the natural world. I'm very happy with the sounds and smells of the earth around me. I grow my own food. My hands get dirty. I hunt. I work with packs of hounds.

Our emotional lives are more complex than animals - although they too have rich lives. But we philosophize, politicalize and personalize our relationship with them - and it's not always beneficial.

If you choose not to live that life, hunt, fish, eat or wear animal products - who am I to critize? I have no right.

I ask that you give me the same courtesy. And I also ask that although you might not change your mind about foxhunting, it might help you understand our position if you asked us questions about the sport from our perspective.

[OakesBrae]

Beautifully thought out and well-written post J Swan.

Thank you.

[rizlakingsize]

ok i agree with that alot of people do anthropomorphize, but i just cant stand the way hunting is done with hounds. hunting with raptors or even reintroducing certain birds of prey to take care of fox numbers and reducing the (alien ) rabbit numbers as this animal isnt native to this country unlike the fox is a far better way to go in my opinion. Seeing a european eagle owl in action is a magnificent sight to see, as soon as this owl has seized its prey it is over. It is not a long drawn process like hunting with hounds. in the wild wolves ,lions, cheetas etc will not chase the prey for miles they will give up and and switch to another which is closest and if u let hounds hunt on their own without human help they would do the same but of course this would never happen and should not happen for the wellfare of the dogs. i & alot other people who share my views would just prefer a different method of hunting and maybe the raptor method of hunting is the way to go. and i know it hasnt been metioned in these posts but im not in agreeance with these idiot antihunt extremists who are just in it to bring violence there just arseholes who couldnt give a toss about wildlife/conservation and give us real antihunt protesters a bad name

[OakesBrae]

Hiya Riz,
Actually, wolves and coyotes (natural predators and relatives of the hound) do chase their prey for quite awhile. Wild dogs do the same thing - it isn't the human intervention at all.

That's becoming a big issue here in the US because we try to contain the wolves, who typically trot for miles to track prey. Same thing with coyotes :-) We're starving them by trying to "contain" them.

Just thought I'd let you know :-)
-OakesBrae

[J Swan]

I'm glad that you are not among the extremists. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about hunting with hounds. Obviously you find it very distasteful and upsetting. Perfectly understandable.

But continue to ask foxhunters questions about the science of hunting with hounds. Houndwork is sublime to watch - when you have enough knowledge to know what is going on. Otherwise it just kinda looks like they are sniffing and woofing.

A falconer recently joined us out Basseting (she was a guest - not hunting with her falcon) and as we were watching the Bassets work she explained all about falconry. Fascinating stuff and I hope to be invited to watch sometime.

Oh - wild canids track and follow their prey for miles and miles - often for days. My sister used to wolf howl in the Carolinas and I spent a summer monitoring conservation easements in Montana - I used to work in conservation. I witnessed wolves and coyotes doing their thing. Grizzly bear took down a full grown horse on a ranch I was staying at.

Foxhunting pales in comparison.

[rizlakingsize]

yes i agree that they track they prey for quite a considerable distance , what i meant was that when the actual chase is on if the prey item gets to far out of range the predator will stop and hunt another animal. yes this happens most when the prey is in a herd, but they wont keep up the chase with the same animal which has disapeared from sight when they can track down another closer prey item and save their energy. and although wild dogs such as wolves/coyotes do indeed hunt for prey they wouldnt keep up the actual chase if it got out of killing distance they would either change to another prey item or if any was around feed on carrion as this saves their stamina for their next hunt.
But like you said we will have to agree to disagree on this hunting with hounds subject

[RoyalTRider]

It really helped me understand foxhunting to ask questions on this forum. I wasn't the same as the person who is totally anti-hunt on this forum (although I think awful generalizations are being made on both sides here), but I think that to that person (sorry, I'm searching for a post to copy down here and don't have the thread open), you should ask people here to explain to you exactly where their point of view comes from, as some have already done. There are many, many kind people on this forum who would do so, either in a PT or on a new thread, but one that jumps quickly to mind for me is J Swan- I think because she did a lot of patient explaining to me, even when I called her on something she said, having missed her earlier apology, to which she was very gracious and kind in pointing out that she had- which I have always remembered. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif There are many others on here who do the same- very patiently and kindly explaining the misconceptions in their sport. No matter if you switch your views, you would come away with a better understanding- which is always something to strive for!


I would refer you to this thread, there are some golden posts:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/5106053911/m/354203064/p/1

[RoyalTRider]

Found that one post I was looking for in specific. J Swan, absoultely magnificent:

"The manner in which a pack of hounds work together, the science and art of breeding and training a pack of hounds, watching the hounds speak, honor, work out a line, follow their quarry, seeing a fox from time to time, learning how the fox lives, breeds, spends its time, what it eats, directly participating in the natural world, all those things but scratch the surface when talking about foxhunting.

Running the fox to exhaustion, tearing it from limb to limb - those statements demonstrate ignorance and they are inflammatory and intended to solicit an entirely emotional response.

However, it is not true. If you really knew anything about foxhunting - by participating - you'd know that.

When we call it "sport" we use that word in its purest sense. Fairness. Honor. Ethics. Cooperation. Some might call "sport" only those activities that are games. Soccer. Football. Tennis. However, when the foxhunter talks about "sport" we are not talking about a game that you watch on tv or carpool the kids to.

I would not condescend to say that you can't understand unless you do it. But really, if you would really like to become educated about what really goes on - please ask any foxhunter, or even go to a tack store and buy a book or video.

What will surprise you the most about foxhunters in general is the level of commitment they have to the outdoors, rural life, the environment and conservation. And their love of animals. It's just that we participate in an aspect of the natural world that some may not fully understand.

So I encourage you, and any other non-foxhunter, to learn both sides of the story.

[J Swan]

Wow - thank you! If I have made generalizations or appeared irritable in the past few days - I do apologize. It is VERY difficult not to make generalizations no matter how much we try isn't it.

Can I blame the very strict diet I'm on? Do you know how GRUMPY I am?

I must also make sure that folks know that foxhunting in the US is a bit different than the UK - here we do not stop earth, dig out, or focus on the kill (although they do happen). The focus is on the hound work/the chase.

Don't take this as a condemnation of the UK - I try my darndest to remember that each country and culture is different and to respect that. Things are just different here.

I gotta tell you though - watching a pack, brace or even a single scent hound is just sublime. Sight hounds, too. Raptors. Herding dogs. Just super stuff.

For anyone interested in a VERY thought provoking book - read Animals in Translation by Dr. Temple Grandin. I recently read it - it's not about foxhunting or horses specifically - but anyone interested in animal welfare, humane slaughter, autism, and how animals perceive and interact with their world would consider this a must have book. She also has a website. If anyone is interested I'll post the URL here.

This book is science based but not difficult to read - and I do honestly believe that no matter what your position on hunting is - you will like the book.

RTR - thank you for your kind words - please continue to ask questions about hunting. I'll answer them the best I can.

[xeroxchick]

May I add another book? "Adam's Task" by Vicki Hearne. I read an excerpt in "Harper's" magazine (left leaning news and articles) and quickly bought and read this book. By an animal trainer/english professor.

[Equibrit]

FOXMAN ON FOXHUNTING IN THE UK


Source Page


What evidence is there that foxes would be worse off without Foxhunting?


Unsupervised hunting of foxes by baiters, fur trappers, and poachers using lurchers often takes place in the urban fringes and other areas where properly organised hunts cannot operate. Some of this is carried out by responsible people with a minimum of cruelty. Regretably some involves excessive cruelty.These atrocities have proved impossible to control in many areas. However in rural communities which support Foxhunting strongly, someÂ*control is exercised by The Hunting Community. Much of the evidence used by the League against Cruel Sports etc. against Formal Hunting is faulty because, in fact, it comes from unsupervised hunting.


Following the cessation of hunting from February 2001 to December 2001 due to foot and mouth disease, farmers across the UK have reported a noticeable increase in fox numbers and resultant predation. In a recent letter to the Federation of Welsh Packs, the Farmers Union of Wales said "All counties in Wales have reported an increase in fox numbers and predation since the Hunting Authorities commenced their voluntary ban on 22 February 2001.The Union's County Branches are receiving an increasing number of calls from farmers concerned at the effects of a protracted ban on fox control during the autumn period."


During World War 2 there was much less Hunting. The fox population soared and predation of lambs, piglets, chickens etc. became intolerable. The Government encouraged shooting to bring down numbers. Farmers took up their shotguns and "Fox destruction clubs" were formed. The fox is difficult to shoot dead except by skilled marksmen (E.g. many gamekeepers) using lamps. Such marksmen were (and still are) relatively few. Most farmers and many members of the "clubs" were unskilled at shooting foxes to achieve an instant death. There was little discipline in these informal "clubs". Many foxes were wounded and left to die slowly, mostly in pain. The RSPCA and the Govt. became concerned about this distressing situation and stopped encouraging the shooting of foxes; please see the Scott Henderson Report, actually the Report of the Committee on Cruelty to Wild Animals"---- Cmd. 8266-------published first in June 1951 paragraphs 158 to 162. This report is as relevant today as it was at publication; what has changed? (only that gassing, poisoning and the use of "gin" traps was commonplace at the time). Today there are a number of non--MFHA Foxhunts and Fox Destruction Societies that use foxhounds or other types of dog to drive foxes to guns. They admit that some 25% are wounded before being caught and killed by the hounds/dogs. Foxes' minds are not conditioned to withstand the pain and stress of wounding by shooting (an entirely unnatural event), whereas they appear to be conditioned so that they do not suffer mentally when chased (an entirely natural event) (evidence). At the end of "the chase" foxhounds kill the fox in a few seconds. Much less than the period between being wounded by shooting and being killed by the hounds or dogs used with "gunpacks" . I do accept, however, that there are wild and hilly/mountainous areas where fox control by "the chase" is impractical (e.g. where there is no local tradition to sustain Fell Packs as in Cumbria and parts of Wales).Â*


In Holland foxes used to be given a high degree of protection. Numbers rose and the population of ground nesting birds became seriously depleted. The Govt. introduced controlled culling of foxes. But the controls are difficult to regulate; in some places excessive numbers are culled, in others the cull is too small to hold numbers steady. The match of the scale of the cull in a particular area to the tendency of its fox population can vary from year to year. The fox population is now unstable and often badly matched to the tolerance of farmers or the interests of conservationists, depending on the locality. ( I obtained this information from a Dutch visitor; a nature lover normally resident in a farming area of Holland).Â*


There is no longer any Foxhunting in the Isle of Man but there are many sheep farms. The fox population has all but vanished along with most of the small woods (coverts) that hunting people maintained for the benefit of the fox (and which still form such a feature of much of the UK's "hunting country"; enjoyed by all and an important habitat for a wide diversity of flora and fauna).Â*


The fox population in the UK's "hunting countries"is notably healthy and has been virtually constant for the last two hundred years (i.e. since Foxhunting became widespread). 200 years of experience in UK Foxhunts has taught Hunts to control the numbers killed so that a delicate balance is maintained. On the one hand is the limit of tolerance of farmers and keepers of shoots towards foxes killing their possessions. On the other hand is the desire of conservationists and Foxhunts for substantial numbers. In "hunting countries" the population is kept at a level just tolerable to farmers and keepers of shoots. In urban areas, where hunting is impossible, foxes are becoming a nuisance in several places and they are more susceptible to mange. In areas where there is a high concentration of game-shooting it takes priority and foxes are relatively rare.Â*


How can I enjoy an activity which involves stressing a living creature?Â*


First let me say that I respect the beliefs of true Vegans and those that, for religious reasons, do not kill or eat flesh . However, most of the human population enjoys the activity of eating flesh; even where obtaining it involves stressing a living creature. Fish feel pain and are stressed when suffocating because they are left to die in a commercial fishing boat out of their vital environment of aerated water.Â*


Do you enjoy eating fish?Â*


Surely non-vegans must accept that some of their enjoyment will cause some distress to living creatures. I believe that acceptability must be judged by the degree of mental suffering (as distinct from physical stress) involved and the extent it is necessary. The issue in Foxhunting, therefore, is "does it cause excessive mental suffering and is it necessary". Years of observation of hunted foxes by knowledgeable Countrypeople shows that they remain fully in control of their wits throughout the chase. I believe therefore, that although Foxhunting stresses foxes physically, the levels imposed are within the limits to which their minds have become adapted to withstand the stress. Therefore, Foxhunting does not cause excessive mental suffering compared with other methods of achieving the balance between fox populations and the limits of tolerance of those upon whose interests foxes prey, as discussed above. This control is widely accepted to be necessary in many individual farms and hilly areas and around many shoots. Therefore, I can allow myself to enjoy the skills of the hounds, of the Huntsman and of crossing the countryside on horses, feet or vehicles. After all, many sports are about enjoying the use of your own skills and/or those of other people and/or of animals (e.g. watching or playing football). Hunting is NOT about enjoying killing, but we accept death of foxes, deer etc. as a necessary service to those who allow us to use their land so that we may enjoy the skills of The Chase (Foxhunting, Stag hunting etc.) What service do ramblers provide to the land owner or tenant?Â* I admire the altruism of the many who allow "permitted paths" across their land for no benefit to themselves. If you have a garden or driveway that could be a convenience to others (say, as a short cut to school) do you allow it to be used?


I find Angling much more difficult to accept than Foxhunting. Fish feel pain and are sentient beings. Their instinct is to swim away from danger. This they cannot do when hooked. Even at low levels of physical stress sentient beings suffer mentally when their instinctive response is thwarted. Thus fish suffer when hooked. A fox's instinct to flee from hounds is not thwarted until seconds before he dies. Furthermore, he is adapted mentally to the level of physical stress he experiences during the chase.Â*


Angling, like Foxhunting, takes place for enjoyment, even if the fish is eaten. However, Foxhunting takes place for other purposes in addition to enjoyment; for instance, to control a predator, to disperse a fox population so that it does not suffer from an unnaturally high density, to condition foxes to the chase, to cull the genetically unsound, to put sick foxes out of their misery. In many parts of the USA, where foxes are seldom killed by the Hunt, several of these purposes still apply.Â*


If you wish to view more detailed reasoning on issues relating to the alleged cruelty of Foxhunting click here.Â*


Advantages of Foxhunting



I am often asked for a list of the advantages of Foxhunting. Here are some:-Â*
Â*


A healthy genetically sound and healthy population of foxes in areas where Foxhunting takes place.

Â*Â*
Maintenance of a delicate balance which has developed over 200 years of Foxhunting between fox numbers and the populations on which they prey; small mammals, rabbits and small birds predominantly. (This, of course, also affects balances further down the chain; such as, in the even smaller mammals and insects etc. which are the prey of the foxes' prey and in other food sources for all members of the chain. Think also further on down the chain.) Only the ignorant, selfish or conceited would countenance tinkering about with such vital aspects of such a complex aspect of a long established countryside environment from which humans hope to continue to gain enjoyment in many different ways.



A density of foxes, (around those farms and shoots where foxes kill the possessions of the farmer or the shoot) which is just tolerable to the farmers and shots. The alternative is virtual elimination of all foxes in these areas.



An additional and significant motive for the preservation of many woods (coverts) because they provide breeding and living places suitable for foxes in areas where there are few other suitable places and/or where the fox population needs to be spread out to avoid over concentration which can often lead to disease and marauding of lambs young pheasants etc. Also to ensure that their whereabouts are known so that they can be controlled in an organised and disciplined manner to achieve the "just tolerable level". Artificial "earths" are constructed for these same reasons.
Â*



An additional motive to help halt the destruction of hedgerows. We like to jump them and they assistÂ* foxes, birds etc. to pass safely across the countryside.Â*



A major part of the structure of society in rural areas.
Â*

Much direct and indirect employment often in rural locations where other sources of employment are rare indeed. Details.Â*



The "rock" on which much of the UK's Horse related industry and competitive competence is based. E.g. Eventing, Export of Event Horses and Hunters, Point-to-Points, National Hunt Racing. They would not die out if Hunting were banned but they would be seriously damaged.



Â*Practical Consequences of criminalising FoxhuntingÂ* Â*


About 60,000 Horses and Ponies are used primarily for Foxhunting. The illegal Fox Hunts would be replaced by far fewer Drag Hunts. There would be no reason to afford to keep an estimated at least one third of hunting horses and ponies. Some 20,000 horses and ponies would be thrown quite quickly onto the market.Â*



The market in most types of horse and pony (not just hunters) would collapse in the UK and in the Irish Republic, which supplies a highly significant proportion of the UK market. Therefore, most of the 20,000 would end up in the slaughterhouse. The remainder would face a high risk of neglect. Typically, a low grade hunting horse's value would drop from £2,000 to £500 meat price and a good hunter from £5,000-£8,000 to £800-£1000. The economic effect on the UK and Irish Horse Industries would be very severe. The lack of the established outlet for retired Competition Horses (Eventers, Show Jumpers, National Hunt racehorses etc.) would make these sports less attractive and harm the UK's exports and performance.Â*



Â*Sales of horse food, bedding, saddlery, veterinary products, horse transport and transporting etc. would be significantly reduced. DetailsÂ*Â*



Employment of grooms, vets, farriers, transport drivers etc. would be significantly reduced. Details.Â*



Most of the approximately 15,000 Foxhounds now employed in Hunting (about 200 Packs ofÂ* an average of 75 hounds each) would not be needed for the fewer Draghunts (about 40 with 30 hounds each including new hunts which would be formed after a ban--- why so few?) and are unsuited to be pets. Some would be exported to the very many other countries where Hunting continues to flourish (not the least to the USA where there are hundreds of Fox and other Hunts), but most would have to be destroyed ( that is up to 12,000 perfectly fit dogs, many just 2 years old).Â*



Foxes would be destroyed ruthlessly and their numbers would be decimated. There would be knock on effects down the ecological chain (E.g. in rabbit populations). The economic effects are hard to predict, but upsetting long established Natural Balances has been shown to have significant costs (E.g. the increasing costs of controlling a surging population of badgers).Â*



Hunting is the basis for a large part of the Social Economy of rural areas (E.g. Point-to Points, trade in rural pubs, social evenings, charitable donations.) These would all be severely curtailed. Centuries of Rural Tradition would vanish. The countryside and the Country Way of Life would be much the poorer, both economically and socially.Â*



Cultural and political consequencesÂ*


This is a complex area, for more detail click here.Â*


In my view drastic legislation about any Country Sport or established farming practice would create a highly undesirable state of "dynamic tension" in the UK between those imbued with our "Urban Sub-Culture" and those with our "Country Way of Life (Rural Sub-Culture)". Clear evidence for this conclusion is the Countryside March of some 280,000 people through Central London on 1 March 1998. [Regrettably this tension has become a serious threat to the stability of the UK. This is due predominantly to ineptitude in handling agriculture and inability to stand up effectively to the "economic war" against the UK being waged by the EEC--in particular by France. But the situation has been aggravated greatly by the Government's anti-hunting stance.] The long term political consequences of such conflict are hard to estimate. But at the least they will harm the aspirations of Labour to move from being "champion of the less well off" to being a "one nation" party. One likely consequence is an increase in the level of intolerance of other cultures (Eg: Islam and Halal slaughter) and more activity by "near anarchic" organisations (as seen in The City of London against capitalism).Â*


If the morality of one cultural group is imposed upon those who live within another; resentment and cultural, social and economic damage will result.Â*


Could adequate replacements be made available to most of those who now enjoy Foxhunting in the UK?


Not really, because the essence of Foxhunting in the UK is that it controls foxes where farmers want them controlled. It follows, that many would not tolerate the inconvenience of having followers cross their farms without having this service from the Hunt. Furthermore a Drag Line (course) needs more space than normally used by a foxhunt ( a chase). The uncertainty in where the quarry will go next is missing so that it has become a demanding equestrian sport, more akin to "point to point" racing than Hunting.Â* It would not suit many of the less courageous mounted Hunt Followers. Also the absence of the uncertainty of the foxes'Â* lines makes it far less appealing, to unmounted followers particularly. Thus it is far less ofÂ* a spectator sport. It wouldÂ* cater for only a small part of the many who now follow Foxhunts in cars and on foot. Thus Draghunting could never cater for more than about 30% of those who now follow a Foxhunt on horseback and would attract very few car and foot followers. Following an artificial scent (drag) or the track of a man (bloodhounds) requires far fewer hounds, not least because the quarry does not have to be dislodged from thick cover.Â*


Hunting live foxes but bringing them to bay and not killing them (as is practised in some parts of the world) might suit the Animal Rightists, but would suit UK farmers even less than Draghunting.Â*


Conclusion


The disciplined culling of foxes in the UK by highly organised, long standing and respected Hunts ( i.e. those belonging to the Masters of Foxhounds Association) avoids the excessive depletion and risk of excessive suffering which would be a feature of the practicable implementation of alternative methods (e.g. trapping, shooting, gassing, snaring.) This conclusion is hardly surprising since it has been reached before by a body much more intelligent than me------the "Scott Henderson Committee" set up by the last "landslide" Labour Government in 1949. Click here to see a scanned copy of their conclusions. WHAT HAS CHANGED? Not the facts, only the "Public's attitude". In reality, this is views held for the most part by representatives of our "Urban Sub-Culture" and not shared by many from our "Rural Sub-Culture". BUT THIS IS NOT A PROPER BASIS FOR WRECKING THE ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL LIVES OF A MAJORITY OF OUR "RURALS". For the reasons.Â*


The moral objections to hunting are, at best, arguable and, at worst, factional opportunism.


APPEALS


Foxman hopes that this site will be referred to by all those involved in the Parliamentary processes following from The Period of Consultation. In particular we hope that people will refrain from taking a view on Foxhunting until they have learned about it. This site should help and another excellent source is at http://www.countryside-alliance.org/cfh/huntingtt/index.html


Those who follow the "Country Way of Life" won against Mr Foster (the last attempt at a ban) by the concerted actions of all of us.Our concerted actions WON AGAIN in leading the Government to introduce an Inquiry before framing proposed legislation. Concerted action can win yet again to ensure that the outcome of Burns is handled in a truly Democratic, rather than in a Dictatorial, manner.The Countryside Alliance will be organising many campaigns, marches, protests etc.


Some Pleas


I have listened to all the debates in the House of Commons about banning Foxhunting, inter alia. They were characterised, on both sides of the argument, by a lamentable lack of knowledge of the subject and by a ludicrous level of emotion. There can be no confidence that The House has come to a just decision unless there is confidence that MPs have studied the subject thoroughly before voting on a ban. I am delighted that The Government allowed foxes and all those involved in Foxhunting the courtesy of a proper government sponsored inquiry Â*"The Burns Inquiry" . After all Clement Attlee's Labour Government instigated such an inquiry in 1949 which did not recommend a ban. Parliament followed this recommendation. The danger is that such a high level of emotion and prejudice against hunting has now built up in MPs, The Public and The Media that Parliament will not take notice of the favourable (to hunting) aspects of The Burns Report.



MPs please study The Burns Report carefully and in detail.



Please study the subject before "preaching " against, or in favour, of Foxhunting.Â*



Please be more tolerant all round; "Rurals" of our "Urban Sub-Culture" and vice-versa.



Both sides please "cool it" so that the level of emotion is reduced throughout the debate and Burns can be viewed logically, rather than emotively.Â*



Â*


Other sources of information



The Countryside Alliance, "www.countryside-alliance.org" which incorporates the British Field Sports Society, is leading the fight to save Hunting in the UK. They have an excellent site which covers some concise summaries ofÂ* the sport and the case for it.


If you are a member of the Labour Party and support Hunting please look at the website of a group of party members, called Leave Country Sports Alone (LCSA)


The Master of Foxhounds Association of the UK "www.mfha.co.uk" has a site linking to sites of UK Hunts.


A great site with many pertinent links "Old Norris' Foxhunting Page" also www.huntfacts.com (http://www.huntfacts.com)


The Master of Foxhounds Association of America "www.mfha.com" has another excellent site which covers the USA and Canada. It explains the significantly different arrangements and rationale for Hunting there.Â*



The North American Foxhounds Association this is a "club" to which Hunts as such and individuals can belong. They have a Website but seem not to like to publish the address. If you want to contact them, please contact via the discussion group quoted below.Â*
Â*


Another view on the moral issues etc


See Mark Dixon's site "www.netcomuk.co.uk/~cmdixon/hunting.html"Â*


Want to chat?


I propose "Foxhunters On Line".Â*A great discussion group.Â*Â*
Email them to join in a worldwide discussion of everything to do with Foxhunting.Â*


Want to debate?


A sensible and moderated forum for debate is at the UK Hunting Forum.Â*


Want to comment?


Email me. Plese help me to sort you out from the Spam by including the word Foxhunting in the subject of your eMail. I will try and answer all but abusive mail.Â*


Want to help save Hunting?


Please fill in this form and Foxman will put you in touch with the force leading the saving in the UK of all Field Sports and all their infrastructure----- The Countryside Alliance.Â*Â*


Other Foxhunting Sites in the UK and elsewhere


The Kincardineshire Hounds


Tim Pinney a hunting enthusiast.


Old Norris' Foxhunting Page excellent links to Hunting Sites.


A place to start to search the "net" about Foxhunting http://dmoz.org/Recreation/Outdoors/Hunting/Foxhunting