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DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:31 AM
THink that you are not a livestock owner? You are according to the USDA. They want you to chip all of your horses and report to them anytime that you take them off of your property with in 24-48 hours. And another report when you return to home. They want your foals chipped with in 24hr of their birth. If you think that this is not going to affect you, think again. Right now in TX we are fighting a law that was passed on the state level. WI has a similar law already. These aren't just id tags, they are RFID tags so that they can be tracked. Just like the boxes in the comercial with the lady in the middle of the highway at a help desk

They claim that it is to protect the food supply, but no one in the US eats horses. Rabbits are eaten, but not included in the plan. This is a handout that was produced here in TX that we are sharing with the uninformed.


LIVESTOCK & HORSE OWNERS
YOUR RIGHTS ARE IN JEOPARDY!!!

Did you know that the USDA plans to make every owner of even one horse, cow, pig, goat, sheep, chicken, or pigeon register in a government database and subject their property and animals to constant federal and state government surveillance? It’s called the National Animal Identification System [NAIS] and is already in progress since House Bill 1361 passed. It must be repealed. If not, effective January 1, 2008, this is what we will be forced to deal with:

EVERY HOMEOWNER with animals must obtain a 7 digit USDA ID number keyed to GPS satellite surveillance coordinates with all the property and owner’s information permanently stored in a USDA database. We will be required to pay yearly permit fees, purchase tags/chips and electronics to scan/read these tags and chips.

EVERY ANIMAL must be tagged with a Radio Frequency tag or chip, readable at a distance, with a 15-digit USDA ID number.

OWNERS MUST REPORT within 24 hrs every sale or purchase of any animal, every death or slaughter, every missing animal, every placement or loss of an ID tag and every time an animal leaves or returns to the owner’s property. [This includes paperwork because of vet trips, trail rides, loose goats, dead chickens due to chicken hawks or raccoons.]

TRAIL RIDES and other movements off your ID’d premise [TRIPS TO THE VET] must be reported to the government within 24 hrs or you may face penalties, fines and confiscation of the animals.

PENALTIES for non-compliance can be up to $1000 per day. You might not register, but if you go to the vet or have them come to your home and you don’t have proper ID, your vet will have to report you by law.

ARE YOU AFRAID? You should be.
THIS CAN BE STOPPED BUT YOU MUST ACT NOW!


If you too are uninformed, don't be. Go google this and see what you find. Then take appropriate action. Write to the people. If you oppose it, don't go quietly into the night.

Sometimes the internet is a place for conspiracy theories, and sometimes it is a place to find out information that just isn't being covered by the media. No, we are too focused on hunting accidents and port management to notice that our rights are being taken away.

SandraD
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:37 AM
Please fight against this.

www.stopanimalid.org (http://www.stopanimalid.org)

Petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/TAHCAIS2/petition.html

Jasmine
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:38 AM
Who produced the handout?

SandraD
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:40 AM
Why does it matter where the flyer came from?

The 358th Texas Animal Health Commission meeting Thursday Feb. 16, 2006

First I would like to say that HB1361 went under our radar and was passed already. What does this mean to you and I if you live in Texas?

1. You and anyone that owns a horse, cow, pig, sheep, goat, chicken, llama, captive game bird, exotic livestock, captive cervidae, ratite or "other" is required to register your premises. It's free until July 1, 2006 (Isn't that comforting.) The government wants to know who you are and what you own! That's just the first step into the invasion of your privacy.....it gets worse.

2. If you do not comply by Jan. 1, 2007 you become a criminal!! And here's the penalty:

A) Under section 161.148 and entitled "Administrative Penalty" the Commission may impose an administrative penalty against a person who violates a rule or order adopted by the Commission. The penalty for violation may be in an amount not to exceed $1000. "Each day" a violation continues or occurs is a separate violation for purposes of imposing a penalty. The amount of penalty shall not be based on a per head basis and the Commission must base the amount of the penalty by evaluating six factors as provided by Section 161.148. After which the executive director would issue to the commission a report that states the facts on which the determination is based and the director's recommendation on the imposition of a penalty, including a recommendation on the amount of the penalty.

I want to let that part sink in for everyone reading this before I go on with the rest of the meeting content. I hope everyone noticed that you will never be able to own a small farm or even one chicken or horse in the state of Texas without having to pay and let the government know about it. You no longer have that right or freedom! Notice that the fine can multiply "each day" that you don't comply and the amount of your penalty will be recommended by the Executive director of the TAHC who is none other than Bob Hillman, DVM.......that's right....... a veterinarian! How do you like America now?!!

What can we do now? HB1361 needs to be REPEALED!! We can do this, I know we can!! Texas State Rep. Bryan Hughes of District 5 which includes Camp, Harrison, Upshur and Wood Counties sent word to the meeting that he would have voted "NO" to HB1361 if he had known the full content and conseqences to the small farmer/livestock owner. He needs to be commended for having the guts to admit that and now we know at least one state rep. in our corner! Write to him! Write to all of your reps. and congress people!! Don't let up! We as American's don't deserve our freedoms being ripped away from us!! It's happening right now!! PLEASE fight back!!

Here is the website to find out who represents YOU!!! Pass it on to your friends and family! Sign every petition you can! Copy and paste the petition in this thread and e-mail it to your friends and family. Post it on other horse and cattle talk forums! E-mail, write and call too!! It's going to take ALL of us to get involved to get this changed!

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/

Bob Hillman made the statement in the meeting that Wisconsin is in the same process at this time and Indiana is next. More shortly about the meeting........

actcasual
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:46 AM
I'm prepared to get ripped for this, and I'm going only on what the OP has written--because, as suggested, I've never even heard of this before. . .It could be annoying to report every movement, couldn't there be some actual protection for horses in this? Aren't all these posts about, "Have you seen this missing horse?" and "Do you know what ever happened to that horse?" and "Look at the horse I just rescued" enough to make you *want* to have some tracking device/tattoo mandatory?
And maybe there would be fewer idiots breeding scrub in their backyard if it were more of a hassle to have horses.

Prieta
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:49 AM
My first thought after reading this is who's gonna keep track of all of those birds!?!? Huge paperwork and waste of money and time. I am sure that it will not appeal to general tax payers for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Who is the author of this petition? He is a total nut, lunatic to even think of this!

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:50 AM
Not that it matters too much, but a woman here in TX named Bea.

It is just a compilation of the facts of what we are going to be required to do under the HB 1361

It is just crazy with the amount of movement of horses that we do in this state and the numbers of small owners. Think grannies and their chickens. They fall under this. Parakeets are exotic animals under their definition and will require premise ID and banding. The list goes on.

Please, if you don't believe me, invest some time and do the research. Prove me wrong. I would so like to be wrong about what is happening.

SandraD
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:50 AM
actcasual I see your point, the problem with that thinking is the people & horses that you are concerned about won't register them. Think about all the people who don't get coggins on their horses? Do you really think they'll register the premise or report anything?

Prieta
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:51 AM
We don't need law to take care of horses. We only can take care of the horses - many of the "moves" are motivated primarily by money not by law.

Sandy M
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:52 AM
The USDA is underbudget to inspect and prevent soring at TWH shows - but they're going to hunt down those of us who don't microchip our horses and report their movement? Riiiiight!

I don't doubt that such a plan is in progress and should be opposed or modified (microchipping is not such a bad idea - but reporting movement?), but I think the reality of enforcement will be close to impossible.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:53 AM
Prieta: you have a similar law on your books in WI that they are implementing. It is part of an effort by states to get in line with what the USDA is going to implement. I don't know what your law is, but ours is HB1361 and it is no longer a bill. It was passed unanimously and signed by Rick Perry.

LLDM
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:55 AM
Pardon my bluntness, but SO WHAT?

When the nuero form of EHV-1 hits your barn and kills your horses because there was not a good enough way to track it, you might just change your mind! Or when your horse is stolen, you might really appreciate a way to track him and positively identify him for his return to you.

There are many, many positive benefits to horse owners available based on this program and - IMO - the benefits outweigh the PITA factor.

SCFarm

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:56 AM
I don't mind choosing to microchip my horses. I do object to being required to put RFID tags in my animals and bands on my chickens.

The difference is my freedom to choose.

Prieta
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:59 AM
'Cause I'm doing paperwork for my business and can only skim through. I stop here because I am irked that we are required to do more paperworks and pay more money for that "black hole". I simply do not understand why it has to pass! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

On my banking statement, I simply type down,

"bank loan 1800
reason: support that damn bank
2 reason: huge interest with measly principal"

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Don't need anymore beaurocratics to run us around especially with horses!

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:02 PM
LLDM you are free to choose your opinion. But don't you support the right to liberty that our forefathers fought and died for? Do you want to live in a place that can tell exactly where you are and when you are there? What about if you go to a horse show and report that, but the traffic is bad so you choose an alternate route? They will know that you went another way. That is the point of reporting it. They only have to follow the ones that are reporting movement. And if they pick up on someone else, then they can find them.

No one wants to lose their beloved horses from disease. But they know who is where every time we gather just from the coggins papers. They can find you to notify you if there is a disease outbreak.

As far as theft, the microchip is not the end all answer. There are devices to disable them that only involve a disposable camera and a battery or two. You could have them removed and replaced. The point is that it will only keep honest people honest. Crooks will find away around it. And if they are stealing horses, I classify them as crooks.

actcasual
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:04 PM
Really, I can see where the bird trackage would be a pita. . . but if bird flu is really going to be the Armageddon, you can see why govt would feel inclined to get involved.
But so far I'm not hearing anything that makes me think the potential evil is so much greater than the potential benefit.
As far as the slobs of the world breeding backyard horses, case in point: Man in Fincastle or hereabouts has gone to court multiple times in the last year over his collection of horses that he can't be bothered to feed or sell--or keep fenced with more than scotch tape and baling twine. (It's news enough that the regional paper is busily reporting it--and we tend not to do "agriculture court.) Under the law described here, he'd have a grand a day multiplied by 30 horses sized-incentive to give up his valiant stand-off with the gov't.

Mozart
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:05 PM
I think that with the growing awareness (and concern) about mad cow, avian flu etc we are going to see more and more of this in all countries. I am on the fence on this one. I can see the intended value of it, but really, the gov't does SUCH a good job of keeping track of the things they already have to keep track of...right?? (Insert dripping sarcasm) I wouldn't necessarily be opposed if I thought an agency actually could track animals like this. I guess it remains to be seen.

BeastieSlave
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:15 PM
I'm prepared to get flamed, but I don't have a problem with it. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see any government entity being able to handle the amount of information that this will generate any time in the near future anyway. I'm sorry, but I don't think the sky is falling.

As for taking away all those liberties... From what I've read here, the bill isn't restricting movement or ownership, it's just tracking and taxing it. How is that taking away liberties? If you've got the money and follow the rules, you're fine.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:16 PM
Much of the tracking is already done for bovine and commercial chickens by lot.

One aspect of the premise ID is that by having one, you consent to random inpsections of your premise. In other words, by having it you are consenting to a warrantless search of your property. If we are upset about the government wire tapping conversations to terrorists from inside this country without a warrant, shouldn't we be upset about their ability to perform a warrantless search or "inspection" of our land?

Mad cow should be on the decrease after the law passed in '97 that forbids the feeding of certain types of feed to bovines. As the old cows die off and we don't feed that type of feed anymore, it should go away.

Frankly, you have more to fear from migratory birds with bird flu, than my backyard flock of chickens that go nowhere and are self contained.

Tell me what is SUCH a great benefit to give up so many of our rights? Do you know that they are considering at a later time dogs and cats and rabbits?

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:18 PM
Some of it is about the money. Some people that live on the edge and are self sufficient, use chickens and their eggs to survive. They will not be able to afford to keep them. So now the government takes that away and gives them, food stamps? That not a better way.

nettiemaria
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:24 PM
I for one am just not going to do it.

county
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:25 PM
Someone needs to check there facts. The USDA suspended the program indefinatly, there is no set date to implement it and never was. There was a target date of 2009 but that was never set in stone.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:31 PM
In TX and WI it is already law and in the process of implementation. Right now we are in the voluntary phase of premise IDing what they think are about 200K premises that fall under their requirements. (I think that number is very low) YOu are right that the USDA has backed off. We theorize that TX is a test state to see how we will swallow it. If a few independent states will go quietly, then it should be no problem to get the rest to fall in line.

Incidently, the USDA did not back off until there was some outcry here in TX. Please, do some more research county.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:34 PM
Incidently, the some of the biggest supporters of this law here in TX have been the auctions that the slaughter men frequent. I forgot to mention that. I guess they are counting on a bunch of sales as people give up their animals. Thanks for reminding me of that county. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

nettiemaria
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:37 PM
Another big supporter is the AQHA. Hmmm.

ASB Stars
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:38 PM
I attended a forum at the recent ASHA convention where they said that this would be implemented by 2009- the Vets that gave the talk, in Kentucky, were quite familiar with the whole USDA deal.

BTW, you cannot easily, and without scarring, remove a chip. It gets placed into a large tendon in the horses neck, and is NOT a walk in the park to get back out of there. Disabling them, I know nothing about.

I honestly don't have any negative feelings about this- I do not see the sky falling, and, although Big Brother is undoubtably watching, I see this as offering more safety for the animals than harm. The initial set up- yes, a big pain- however, after that, it will become easier.

I think that, along with the usual DNA work that is done as a requirement of registration in most breeds, microchipping should be done, as well. This way, a horses identity could reasonably be protected throughout their lifetime- a huge benefit, if you ask me.

There will always be people who find ways around the system, because they don't like it, or can benefit from "ill gotten booty" by devising methods to circumvent the system. Until, and unless, someone shows me FACTS which would dissuade me, I am on board with this.

snowpony
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:43 PM
I don't think the arguments about stolen horses and tracking disease hold any water.

1. Spend that time and money tracking down criminals and prosecuting them rather than implementing a huge white elephant plan to track all horses. Increase the effectiveness of humane laws so that horse abusers and neglecters can have the animals confuscated due to their treatment, not on a technicality regarding microchip compliance.

2. Do you actually picture a building full of employees sitting there at computers tracking all the movements? How many man-hours would that take do ya think? No, this will be a randomly-enforced system which means no one will comply, but if you happen to have someone rat on you, you will be made an example of. Unfair.

3. What about the long term health consequences for the horses wearing these active microchips (not the same as passive chips used in dogs and cats). Have studies been done?

4. Slippery slope before we are all required to microchip children at birth.

Bleah.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:44 PM
One of my plethora of questions is: if it is to protect the food supply, why horses?

Also, why require chipping? We already identify our horses with coggins papers (now there is digital photography, I hear) and DNA tests and registration. I don't mind choosing to chip. I just don't think that I should be required to chip.

RAyers
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:46 PM
EVERY HOMEOWNER with animals must obtain a 7 digit USDA ID number keyed to GPS satellite surveillance coordinates with all the property and owner’s information permanently stored in a USDA database. We will be required to pay yearly permit fees, purchase tags/chips and electronics to scan/read these tags and chips

I have to comment on this ludicrous statement. Apparently somebody has been watching too many movies.

First, these chips are not internally powered so that they can only respond if "polled" by a pulsed power beam from a transmitter. The power needed to poll a chip from satellite is SO large you would fry the animal. These chips are only effective within a few inches of a reader. Thus there is no physical way to track these animals using GPS.

I am both and engineer and biomedical device professor. I have worked with RFID chips and the misinformation, including the implication of this statement is amazing.

Reed

lynntelaak
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:49 PM
Last week this board was fired up about the delay in reporting nuerologic herpes in Maryland. That is exactly the type of incident this would combat. How would you feel if you attended or hosted a horse show that another horse attended that had a highly contagious disease. Would you like to find out from this board or the media days after the exposure with lots of misinformation or would you like to be notified as soon as the exposure was recognized because your id was recorded and you filed a travel report?
We have to recognize that disease is spreading more easily in our mobile society. Animals and humans are traveling worldwide. Diseases are moving to other species (ie dog to horse and bird to human).
This system was implemented for sheep and goats a few years ago. Premise numbers have been assigned and animals are eartagged with the number and their individual id number. It is no big deal. I helped educated our local farmers and 4-Hers and they are doing fine with the system.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 12:53 PM
have to comment on this ludicrous statement. Apparently somebody has been watching too many movies.

First, these chips are not internally powered so that they can only respond if "polled" by a pulsed power beam from a transmitter. The power needed to poll a chip from satellite is SO large you would fry the animal. These chips are only effective within a few inches of a reader. Thus there is no physical way to track these animals using GPS.

I am both and engineer and biomedical device professor. I have worked with RFID chips and the misinformation, including the implication of this statement is amazing.


Really? How do they not light the UPS boxes on fire? Forget the commercial? Help desk in the middle of the road... "you're lost" How did you know we were lost? " The boxes told me" It is the RFID tags that can be tracked by satellite. Maybe they use different kinds in horses. But they are advertising this capability on the TV (dang it, can't remember which company though)

Carol-n-Norm
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by DJ:
In TX and WI it is already law and in the process of implementation.

I am a horse owner who live in WI and I have never even heard of this!! How can it be in the process of implementation??? I would think that in my barn with 30+ horses this would have come up. The vet was even out a couple of weeks ago and never said anything. Maybe it is true but I think this all may be being blown out of proportion. I would think I would have heard something about it.

greysandbays
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:08 PM
Aside from the violations of personal property rights involved, I am totally against this on the premise that just about anything the govermnent does will be too expensive, screwed up from the get-go, and an undue burden on everybody, while not only doing squat to solve ANYTHING -- but creating problems left and right that heretofore hadn't even existed.

Like Ronald Reagan said, "The nine scariest words in the English language are: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help'."

RAyers
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:09 PM
DJ,

The transmitters for the RFID power are within a few inches of the box. No, the RFID tags can not be tracked by satellite. The truck is tracked and the package list for what is on that truck is noted. The trucks have powered GPS tansceivers that allow for the company to communicate to the truck.

Just think of the size of satellite phones. They are pretty big compared to RFID. The reason being they need to have POWER to transmit their location and the data.

Handheld GPS recievers only need to recieve the signal for the satellites. They do NOT transmit.

Cell phones with enhanced 911, recieve GPS information but they still need to be by a cell tower to send that information to authorities.

Marketing is a wonderful thing to sidestep reality. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Reed

ASB Stars
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by RAyers:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">EVERY HOMEOWNER with animals must obtain a 7 digit USDA ID number keyed to GPS satellite surveillance coordinates with all the property and owner’s information permanently stored in a USDA database. We will be required to pay yearly permit fees, purchase tags/chips and electronics to scan/read these tags and chips

I have to comment on this ludicrous statement. Apparently somebody has been watching too many movies.

First, these chips are not internally powered so that they can only respond if "polled" by a pulsed power beam from a transmitter. The power needed to poll a chip from satellite is SO large you would fry the animal. These chips are only effective within a few inches of a reader. Thus there is no physical way to track these animals using GPS.

I am both and engineer and biomedical device professor. I have worked with RFID chips and the misinformation, including the implication of this statement is amazing.

Reed </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, one of the goals, according to the forum I attended, is to be able to get an animals vitals from the chip, via satillite. The thought is that, say if you had a bunch of broodmares turned out, or young horses, there would be a way to alert the farm manager/owner that they had a horse whose heart rate or temp had spiked. Interesting stuff!

And not so far off on the horizon, according to Dr. Doug Byars, et al.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:14 PM
Marketing is a wonderful thing to sidestep reality. Smile


I don't think that truer words were ever spoken ! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

RAyers
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:20 PM
Dr. Byars better get a degree in physics first. There is a law about the relationship betweeen size and power. An RFID chip is not big enough to have the power to transmit over the distance need to reach a satellite (between 10,000 and 22,000 miles away). Maybe someday but not in our lifetimes.

Reed

Huntertwo
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:22 PM
This was posted several weeks ago. So, I'll repeat myself....

Do you really think that the Government either has the time, paperwork or manpower to possibly track every horse that moves anywhere in the U.S. on a given weekend? Horses that show, trailride etc. No way in #ell do I buy into this.

They can't even keep track of illegal aliens or where Registered Sex offenders are for goodness sake. Do you really think millions of horses are going to be tracked?

And if by chance it does happen, if I'm not doing anything wrong, then I have nothing to fear. Has nothing to do with my Civil Liberties.

I'm more concerned with Eminent Domain.. NOW THAT SCARES ME!

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:29 PM
if I'm not doing anything wrong, then I have nothing to fear.


that is what the German people said when their government became more restrictive. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

edited to add: between this and eminent domain, I am beginning to feel like I live in Stalin's Russia . http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

county
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:36 PM
ROTFLMAO DJ and others you guys have given me a huge laugh today. Your facts are so far from reality I can't help buy laugh and no neither TX. nor Wi. have passed any such mandatory law.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:37 PM
That is a flat out LIE county. There is a law in TX. I can not verify WI myself, but there is one in TX

here is the link to the handling of it and passing it in TX : http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/db2www/tlo/billh...E=B&BILLSUFFIX=01361 (http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/db2www/tlo/billhist/actions.d2w/report?LEG=79&SESS=R&CHAMBER=H&BILLTYPE=B&BILLSUFFIX=01361)

and here is a link to the actual bill that was passed: http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/tlo/textframe.cm...361&VERSION=5&TYPE=B (http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/tlo/textframe.cmd?LEG=79&SESS=R&CHAMBER=H&BILLTYPE=B&BILLSUFFIX=01361&VERSION=5&TYPE=B)

kmw2707
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:44 PM
I am in Wisconsin. There is a program to register all premises that have livestock. See this link: http://www.datcp.state.wi.us/premises/instructions.jsp

Carol-N- the premis registration is up to the stable owner where you board, not you. If you have horses/cows/chickens/etc at home you are suppose to register your own premis.

I did not see any reference to mandatory micro chipping and such for Wisconsin.

county
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:45 PM
ROTFLMAO So its a flat out lie? So tell me DJ what is it when you say something like " its madatory in Wi.?

county
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:46 PM
BTW its not a madatory law in TX. for everyone either.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:47 PM
county, I said that I couldn't verify WI. But I did verify TX including that it has criminal penalities for non compliance.

Was there a law passed in WI. I am sure there was. Give me a minute or two and I will find it too.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:49 PM
If it is not mandatory, then why is there a fine of 1000 per day established. No it is not mandatory AT THIS TIME! Which is why we are fighting it SO hard. It will be mandatory if you take your animals of the premise.

Carol-n-Norm
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by kmp2707:
I am in Wisconsin. There is a program to register all premises that have livestock. See this link: http://www.datcp.state.wi.us/premises/instructions.jsp

Carol-N- the premis registration is up to the stable owner where you board, not you. If you have horses/cows/chickens/etc at home you are suppose to register your own premis.

I did not see any reference to mandatory micro chipping and such for Wisconsin.

Ok but this is completely different from what DJ is saying is going on. This has nothing to do with microchipping horses and tracking them with GPS. I can understand having a "livestock on premisis" registration which is what this is.

You don't have to tell anybody when you are taking your animal anywhere etc. As I said before.. it's totally being blown out of proportion.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:56 PM
http://www.wiid.org/


The Wisconsin Livestock Premises Registration Act requires anyone who keeps, houses, or co-mingles livestock to register their premises. Premises that are not currently licensed by the DATCP are required to register by January 1, 2006. Those premises currently licensed by the Department must register by their annual license renewal date.

Sounds kind of mandatory to me.

Don't you think it strange, WI residents that you are under a law that you have neither had a chance to vote on, nor have you heard about?

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:58 PM
The premise ID is phase one of the program. Phase two is the microchipping/ banding and Phase three is the reporting of movements.

This is not out of proportion to what is happening if you don't want to do it. If you are willing to comply, then it won't bother you one bit.

kmw2707
Feb. 28, 2006, 01:58 PM
Carol-n- I agree with you. It is not individual animal tracking. See this page which says that specifically. http://www.datcp.state.wi.us/premises/index.jsp

The above link also specifies that as of January 1, 2006 Premise Registration is Mandatory in Wisc.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 02:01 PM
http://www.wiid.org/index.php?action=anid_about


Registering premises does not obligate you to participate in the next steps of the national plan (animal ID and animal tracking). USDA in the future may make animal ID and animal tracking mandatory. For more information visit the National Animal Identification System (NAIS) web site.

TexasAlter
Feb. 28, 2006, 02:03 PM
The world in less then 10 years

People can not afford the fees, and don't have the want to to put up with Government regulations anymore so what happens:

Well, most of the people who had the "back yard" animals are already gone because they couldn't afford to do start this program to begin. They were struggling to feed and keep their animlas to begin with.

Next the small farmer who only had a couple of head of cows to supplement their income, and be able to get their ag exemptions.

Then the rest of the horse owners and "richier" people who are sick of the beaucracy of only owning a few animals.

All these are gone so then what happens to the business that are supported by them:

Ag exemptions are gone and then so all the pasture land will be houses
Rodeo- gone no horse or cows to participate
4H - gone they couldn't keep up
Feed stores- closed they had no more customers
tractor places- closed no one has any more farm land to take care of
Auction house- closed who is left to sell at them, not to mention the meat buyers can go to the few last remaining places that are raising beef and just hand them an order and it will be filled.


Our rights to own any kind of animals are being sucked away and people are just going to sit there and let them be taken. Kids will not know what it is like to pet a dog, or ride a horse. The government will know where to find you and take away anything they want to. Charge you fees until you can't afford them anymore. The idea of HB 1361 and NAIS are to run all of us "out of business" and let the big ag farmers take over. How does that old saying go.....Those who control a Nations food supply control the Nation. Do you want your elected officials and big business men to have that kind of power over you??????

kmw2707
Feb. 28, 2006, 02:05 PM
Premises Registration doesn't bother me, but the animal ID and tracking just wouldn't work for most people-or at least there may be alot of us in noncompliance.

horseandhound
Feb. 28, 2006, 02:06 PM
Anyone who wants the facts should go to usda aphis site. It will tell you quite clearly that at the moment this is a voluntary program.The master plan is to implement it as a mandatory program by 2008. It has not been shelved or abandoned. Horses are classed as farm animals, they are slaughtered in states such as Texas and then exported to Japan and Europe. This makes them, food wise, no different to a steer, lamb, goat etc. Horses are a recognized industry within the USDA. If a commercial horse operation wants the benefits of agricultural exemptions then they have to be aware that they will be included in programs such as this one that is aimed at protecting our livestock. I have a commercial horse operation and my husband is a beef farmer. We have long lived under the shadow of the usda regulations on a daily basis with our cows and steers.You can't be a recognized industry within the USDA and not expect to be included in this plan.
I don't really welcome it, but I see it as a necessary evil.

TripleRipple
Feb. 28, 2006, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Carol-n-Norm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ:
In TX and WI it is already law and in the process of implementation.

I am a horse owner who live in WI and I have never even heard of this!! How can it be in the process of implementation??? I would think that in my barn with 30+ horses this would have come up. The vet was even out a couple of weeks ago and never said anything. Maybe it is true but I think this all may be being blown out of proportion. I would think I would have heard something about it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The first step in the NAIS process is the registration of your premises, which is now required in Wisconsin (your state is considered eager to begin implementation and determined to be ready when the USDA date for mandatory compliance occurs - said date become a bit of a moving target).

Here is a link I found for Wisconsin:

http://www.wiid.org/index.php?action=premises_about

There is other info at that website as well. I don't understand why they are failing to get the word out to owners, because WI really wants this thing to fly.

MistyBlue
Feb. 28, 2006, 02:08 PM
*sigh* It's a chip that can be scanned to track the progress of certain catastrophic diseases. The scanners will be within a certain distance to what gets satellite signals. It's not Cow LoJack and it's not Equine Onstar. Although Equine OnStar would be nice for the next time I spontaneously become dismounted on the trail, it's be nice to make a phone call and track the bugger! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
They cannot click a James Bond button and have a blip on a screen pop up showing The Man where you're riding or trailering.
They'll track by *supposedly* scanning at checkpoints, auctions and statelines. Which will happen in a pig's eye. They rarely scan for chips now as it is at auctions or even at rescues.
Loose horses will be found the old fashioned way...by a call from an extremely irate neighbor who just lost their prize-winning flower garden or found Princess taking a slurp out of their birdbath...or possibly just stepping into 5 bs of steaming meadow muffins.
~Or~ loose horses will be found by the sound of screeching brakes...so put up decent fences with real gates and real gate latches. Don't expect The Man to find your horses for you.
Stolen horses...stick with NetPosse and word of mouth for now. If the chips do become mandatory...it's doubtable anyone will bother scaning them.
And for heaven's sake...please don't start requiring horses to be taken off the livestock list. Unless those who own barns want to be taxed out of business and those who board want their board rates to double to cover astronomical taxes to cover "storage of luxury items" rather than being farmland.
And last but not least...horse owners DO need to wake up and get out there and LEARN about the items and legislation and town politics that effects horse owners greatly. INCLUDING taxing of horses as non-farm animals, which changes zoning on many properties, keeping up wth care and containment of open areas, farm land legislation (our hay, grain and boarding places are on farmland...one doesn't need to milk cows to keep up with farmland issues) and all sorts of other things that can easily and quickly shove all of us right out of horse ownership.
Chipping them to track illnesses isn't negative unless you have a Big Brother conspiracy theory happening. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I find it ironic that Stegall and others can post big WARNING posts about upcoming government issues that we need horse owning bodies at to combat or support to help ALL of us nationwide as horse owners and NOBODY reads them or responds to them. I guess if it doesn't include a juicy conspiracy theory Big Brother angle...it's no fun to rant online about. We're not getting more sign ups for equine and farm councils and groups that work their butts off to save farmland and equine laws to keep the rest of everyone else happy horsie people. I guess that $20 a year isn't as fun as say...I don't know...keeping the land you keep your horses on. More fun to crab about Mission Impossible scenerios with trail riders showing up on radar screens? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 02:09 PM
Compliance won't be enforced all at once. But gradually. Like eating an elephant. One bite at a time. Study your history. Stalin didn't make everybody join the collective at first. But then it was mandatory, then it was enforced with violence and starvation.

Don't think that we are SO different and better than other people. We are only as free as we are willing to stand up for.

MistyBlue
Feb. 28, 2006, 02:16 PM
No offense meant DJ...but that's quite a leap going from chipping to track catastrophic diseases to Stalin. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
And that elephant is getting eaten one bite at a time...we're losing farmland at a rate that rivals anything we've ever seen in this country. Nobody seems to want to open threads about that, learn more, join councils en masse and fight that.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 02:24 PM
I guess maybe it is a leap. But how did he start, is all my point was. He didn't start out nor present himself as a nasty guy or requiring much. It was as he progressed that his people found out how brutal he was.

In the same way, I really believe that it will only become apparent as this is further enacted how brutal it can be.

Another parallel with Stalin and his people: The majority liked what he was doing because they felt safer and were more prosperous, even though the rights of many peasant farmers were being trampled on. It was thought of as a sacrifice that they must make for the good of the country.

I am just saying what you are: get involved and stand up. Don't be sheep. And yup, it is hard to get farmers to hold onto land when they can sell and make 10x's or more what the can in a lifetime of farming and ranching on that land.

Do you think that more people or less people will be farming and ranching after this goes through?

TripleRipple
Feb. 28, 2006, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by kmp2707:
Premises Registration doesn't bother me, but the animal ID and tracking just wouldn't work for most people-or at least there may be alot of us in noncompliance.

Noncompliance isn't much of an issue until and unless it does become mandatory (and the target date is 2009 nationwide, though USDA is having some problems over this now).

Once it is mandatory, it remains to be seen if they will in fact put teeth into it as they have stated they will do. Once mandatory, a non-id'd animal is outside the system - no sales, no feed, no vet supplies or care until the animal has an id chip. Fines would accrue if they are supplied; fines are also planned if your horse leaves your land (show, vet, trail ride next door, whatever) and you fail to put a notice in writing each time the animal is moved, if you are caught. That is how enforcement is planned.

Right now the big focus is on cattle and poultry. There are issues out west with this, because much of our cattle graze on public land alloments, and co-mingle with other cows from many ranches, many miles aways - so where did the disease process start in that kind of scenerio? It starts boggling the mind.

There was a sort of exception at one point, for animals that never leave their premises. It said no id required in that case....however, if you read the rest of the USDA reg, there was completely contradictory language on this point. No way to tell which they meant as controlling language, and it is still early on the road to the mandatory date. But something to keep an eye on.

I do not believe that even if it is mandatory, they will be able to adequately track all animals at all times - the gov is just not good at things on this scale. But I don't want to be without care for them because I chose not to participate, nor do I want to participate, and find that due to an equine disease outbreak within a mile radius of my place, some knot-balled bureaucrat decides to destroy all horses within a mile radius to contain it. Just like they do with poultry now. And they can do it, cause I can't transport or hide my chipped horse, who may not have the disease, but the knot brains don't have time for testing, like with the birds.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Feb. 28, 2006, 02:43 PM
Can I get the clear cut facts ("just the facts, m'am")???

In principle, I am against any more government interference in my life. I am appalled that a moron with such limited intelligence as dubbya and a greedy sleazebag like cheney have already been pushing the limits on this.

So - sum total: if the bush administration is pushing this, what can I do to fight it? Because anything they want can only be very bad for the rest of us.

JSwan
Feb. 28, 2006, 02:45 PM
Y'all are coming in on NAIS pretty late in the game. NAIS has been a known problem for farmers for a long time, and there were major concerns that it was going to put organic and small farmers out of business. In many cases - it would. Also religious concerns were raised - requiring the Amish to purchase a scanner and mircochip their animals - well - you could see there'd be some problems with that.

Several states have already implemented parts of NAIS. Right now NAIS as a system is in a bit of a hiatus because there were constitutional questions raised that the USDA didn't bargain for. But once those questions are resolved (or litigated) - NAIS will be a done deal - it's just a question of a timetable for implementation for each state.

Many of us on this BB raised these concerns about NAIS a long time ago and were ridiculed. Guess folks should have paid more attention.

Right now atty's are trying to figure out how to require US citizens to report government required information to a private entity.

The way the gov't handles a disease outbreak is really humane - stuffing live poultry into woodchippers. I can't wait until my horse is subjected to their tender mercies.

And actually, the government is pretty good at tracking animal movements. NAIS is a contractor's dream job of course - because it's so far reaching and draconian. Lots of money to be made. Just because tracking horses is going to be a nightmare doesn't mean the feds aren't going to do it. Who cares how much it costs you, show facilities, vet clinics; how many show venues will end, how difficult getting together with a friend for an early morning trail ride will be.... that's not the feds problem.

Too late, folks. The time to speak up is long gone. Start saving your money now to purchase scanners and chips - and get a better internet connection so you can report your movements to the feds.

If you want to find out whats really affecting horses, get rid of those horse magazines and read some ag journals. While you may not be interested in pork futures, the information in ag publications is more directly related to the feeding, stabling and care of your horse. NAIS has been extensively reported on.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 02:50 PM
JSwan: please don't give up. I know that it may be just a matter of time, but maybe we can get it pushed back long long time from now.

I agree about them just litigating our rights away. That is what happened with eminent domain.

And I am sorry that while I didnt disagree with you, I was incredulous that this could be happening. I am shocked and amazed! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

How many years have they been working on this?

JSwan
Feb. 28, 2006, 03:02 PM
No reason to apologize at all. When I heard farmers around her talking about it long ago - I thought they were crazy. chips? scanners? tracking movement? papers, please? heck - that was the kind of stuff I saw in East Germany before the wall fell. It sounded like sci fi fantasy to me.

But unless I am horribly mistaken (if so I apologize) it is really too late to change NAIS to make it work better for horse owners. Actually - all small farms. Because if you have large numbers of animals, you get lot numbers instead of individual chips. ConAgra, Cargill, Monsanto - all the big names in agriculture
are ok with NAIS - because it's big business. You see - if small farmers have to spend thousands to comply with NAIS - it's just that much sooner they'll go under. NAIS is a boon to factory farms - which is a shame because large numbers of animals living in such conditions are a perfect vector for disease. No chipping of individual chickens; which would cost tens of thousands of dollars in a factory farm. They get lot numbers. But the small farmer, the organic farmer, the homesteader - yep - they bear the full brunt. And foreign object introduced into animals means they can't be labeled "organic".

I'm not against tracking livestock - like I said it's been done for many years with great success. NAIS, though - well - I'm starting to understand why people want to go off-grid, live in a yurt, and homestead!

moonriverfarm
Feb. 28, 2006, 03:08 PM
The same legislation is on the books in Alabama, House Bill 254 by Rep. Galliher.

Cinnybren
Feb. 28, 2006, 03:10 PM
FYI - Looks like things have been at least postponed here in Texas.

TX Reg Postponed (http://www.tahc.state.tx.us/Action-TXPrem-Reg-Regs-Postponed.pdf)

Sannois
Feb. 28, 2006, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by RAyers:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">EVERY HOMEOWNER with animals must obtain a 7 digit USDA ID number keyed to GPS satellite surveillance coordinates with all the property and owner’s information permanently stored in a USDA database. We will be required to pay yearly permit fees, purchase tags/chips and electronics to scan/read these tags and chips

I have to comment on this ludicrous statement. Apparently somebody has been watching too many movies.

First, these chips are not internally powered so that they can only respond if "polled" by a pulsed power beam from a transmitter. The power needed to poll a chip from satellite is SO large you would fry the animal. These chips are only effective within a few inches of a reader. Thus there is no physical way to track these animals using GPS.

I am both and engineer and biomedical device professor. I have worked with RFID chips and the misinformation, including the implication of this statement is amazing.

Reed </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thank you Reed for the voice of reason, You post was as far as I had to read! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 03:15 PM
I had heard that. I guess I am looking at this postponement as an opportunity to fight it. But I am just one voice. There are others, but the more there are, the louder we are.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 03:16 PM
Well, Sannois, sorry that it means so little to you that you would not bother to read the posts that involve the actual laws. While at this point he may be right, it won't always be that way. One day, if it can be done, it will.

Sannois
Feb. 28, 2006, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by DJ:
Well, Sannois, sorry that it means so little to you that you would not bother to read the posts that involve the actual laws. While at this point he may be right, it won't always be that way. One day, if it can be done, it will.
Well DJ I think they may try at some point and in a lessor form, But I pray the Government has better things to do with our tax dollars that to track Cats dogs, Iguanas and hamsters from a GPS satellite. Untill it is an issue I am not going to fret about it!

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 03:40 PM
I am not asking you to fret about it. I am just calling you to research it. See what they have in mind and in law. If you are comfortable with it, so be it. I am not, now that I am learning more about it. I got to figuring: if my freedom was worth someone else dying for, then it wasn't too much to ask me to be a responsible citizen and check out what people were saying about the NAIS.

carolprudm
Feb. 28, 2006, 03:54 PM
Here in VA there is a law being pushed through the legistalure that would require vets to report all dogs and cats that come in for rabies shots to the county.

Calvincrowe
Feb. 28, 2006, 04:04 PM
For heaven's sake DJ, spent too much time gazing in rapt attention at the web? I know about these ideas the gov't has to track animals for disease control, and as many have said, no biggie.

In my state, all horses are supposed to have Brand/Livestock Inspections done by the state and get an ID card from them, you must have a bill of sale with you and on file with the state, and be ready with these when you travel. Do I have these with me? No. Have I ever been checked for them at a horse show? Once, about 10 years ago. We all got warnings, but haven't ever seen a Livestock Inspector since then.

There are much bigger issues to worry about--loss of farm land to ExEcuMansions, taxation of horses, the fact that they are not livestock in my state, but in a separate category and therefore inelegible for property tax reduction--but ginseng plants and koi fish are elegible.

Take a deep breath, do some research at your state level, take another deep breath. Stop reading everything on the internet as gospel truth. Go to the source--contact your congressperson/senator/whatever.

horseandhound
Feb. 28, 2006, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by J Swan:
______________________________________________

If you want to find out whats really affecting horses, get rid of those horse magazines and read some ag journals. While you may not be interested in pork futures, the information in ag publications is more directly related to the feeding, stabling and care of your horse. NAIS has been extensively reported on.

______________________________________________

Well said! If you're concerned about the future become a menmber of your local Farm Bureau. Better still contact your local Farm Service Agency (you can get your local number through the USDA as the FSA is part of the USDA)We as farmers have known about this for years, the horse farm fringe in my area scoffed at it. The USDA is a mighty organization, they've been talking about this for years. We have a small herd of beefers. This law is going to be terrible for us, hopefully we will find a loophole around it!

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 05:10 PM
Calvincrowe: I wish that it were as simple as me just overreacting to some conspiracy theory websites. Did you see that most of the sites that I posted and quoted were actual government sites?

Some of it is my conjecture as to how far it would or could go, based on my limited knowledge of civilized history. But what I said is true. It is a law in TX, we are just in the first phase, which is being delayed at this point. It is not yet resolved and the next step will be ID tags that are RFID's and then there will be tracking through reporting.

I believe that this is a violation of my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Your mileage may vary.

JSwan
Feb. 28, 2006, 05:31 PM
carol - you and all Virginians should know that it appears HB339 passed on 2-28 - with modifications that render the entire law a new method of revenue generation for Virginia - not a method of ensuring rabies is contained, or spay neuter programs are funded. Get ready for an increase in rabies in Virginia. Yippee yahoo.

This is what happens when people argue semantics on Internet BB's and not pay attention to what's going on in their legislature. Yes, poor stegall constantly posts vitally important information about legal matters affecting horseowners - but most folks are too busy arguing minutae to notice. Then they get pissed and act shockeed when the find they've been zoned, taxed and licensed out of owning horses.

Thanks to the animal rights nuts in Virginia, what type of dogs I own, their breed and history will now be a matter of public record. And to the folks who thought the revenue would be going to their little spay neuter projects - nope - the GA, in its infinite wisdom, declared that the revenue will go to "animal control activities". Pretty vague, pretty broad. The Virginia AR groups really shot themselves in the foot on that one. But the hoi polloi gets to pay for it. In spades. Your little dog license just got VERY expensive.

We can argue about the myths of RFID, the merits of abdicating privacy rights in favor of perceived increases in safety - but in the end - no matter what you think, what you post on this BB - if you're not paying attention to what's going on in your legislature you're just pissing in the wind.

There is nothing wrong with trying to track animals so that disease transmission is mitigated. Heck - we already do it to a large extent. The question in many minds is simply this: Was NAIS going to reach that goal? Were the needs and rights of American citizens balanced against the governments need to ensure the citizenry is reasonably safe from disease. My answer is, NO.

NAIS in its current form may be at a standstill right now due to some legal concerns - but the program will be implemented eventually. Unfortunately, many legitimate concerns raised by organic farmers, religious communities, small farmers, homesteaders, privacy rights groups and others have simply been ignored. For medium and large scale ag operations, it's an annoyance, expensive, but costs will be passed on to the consumer and those operations are already set up for tracking an monitoring in one form or another. For small farmers, homesteaders, the little granny next door who keeps a hen for eggs - it's a boondoggle.

Look at the big picture. Even if the rhino cases had been tracked under NAIS - nothing would have changed. NAIS was not intended to prevent disease transmission. It was intended to isolate a source within a set period of time. The rhino horses would still have died or been exposed. The difference is that had the feds been involved - it would have been a boondoggle like Hurricane Katrina efforts. Now doesn't that give you warm fuzzy feelings?

Be careful what you wish for. Our lives could be made much "easier" if everything was tracked, tagged, monitored and catalogued. But you know - I just don't want to live in a world like that. Many people don't. And even if you don't agree with that philosophy, it should be respected.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 05:42 PM
here here! well worded, JSwann. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

LostFarmer
Feb. 28, 2006, 05:43 PM
This government can't seem to keep track of the illegals but wants to track my chickens? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif
LF

Chief2
Feb. 28, 2006, 05:48 PM
I have already done the microchipping of the cats at home. Doing the horses doesn't bother me. However, where in the world is the government going to find the money needed to keep this thing going? The money's all going out to Iraq, they still can't deal with the aftermath of Katrina, and there's no way they'll be able to deal with the Bird Flu. I'm really interested in seeing just how many farms are going to take the initiative to vaccinate every one of their hundreds of chickens against the Bird flu. Too darn few, I'll wager. Again, it's because of the money. I'm all for chipping and tracking horses, but I don't see the money available to support the program.

JSwan
Feb. 28, 2006, 05:53 PM
LostFarmer - Yes. I guess it's just a minor annoyance that the illegal coming across our border may be intending to release smallpox or ricin or something. On the other hand - maybe they're coming to steal our chickens. In that case - the microchips will help locate the stolen poultry, so it must be okay.

JSwan
Feb. 28, 2006, 06:06 PM
The chipping and tracking of horses under NAIS is not the same as chipping your animal in case it gets lost or stolen. If your horse gets stolen - NAIS isn't going to help you recover it. Information - if it is submitted at all - will be maintained by states under a state/fed/private party partnership. It's not as simple as just chipping your horse.

NAIS is being supported by big ag concerns, Cargill, Monsanto and ConAgra, for example. Additionally, much of the data collection and tech stuff is going to contractors. A RFP will go out, contractors will bid, one will be selected, the rejected companies will demand a Congressional inquiry, yatta yatta. (been there done that). Millions in grants have already gone to several states to help them start and run thier premises registration programs - while you may not see how money can be available to run the program - the money is there. And chip manufacturers are LOVING NAIS. Think of the money they're going to make!

Sannois
Feb. 28, 2006, 06:15 PM
Â*Please Wait. Your request is being processed...
I HAVE IT!!! Maybe we should tag the mexicans instead of the Poultry and horses etc!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Wanna bet someone takes my levity seriously??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
DJ I am sorry for not looking into this further, My husband said, Wait that is scary, and yes he agrees this is a direct assault on our liberties! I do think it is worthwhile to research and find out who the polititions are that are trying to implement this!

Equibrit
Feb. 28, 2006, 06:17 PM
Sounds a lot like the NRA propaganda!

MistyBlue
Feb. 28, 2006, 06:19 PM
And yet....right under this thread (well, after I post this it'll be much lower than this thread) is the CT post on getting involved. And yet again...poor Stegall had to bump it herself and it has 5 replies. Basically Stegall and I talking to ourselves begging for attention on this matter and one other concerned BB member. 112 views..Stegall, Caylie and I talking to ourselves.
But, but, but...the title post says CT and I;m not *in* CT...you say? Well, guess where every single state in this cuntry gets their ideas, blueprints and battleplans from? Each other. Each state is a litmus test...one state passes something that gains something for the gov and takes something away from horse owners (people they all assume are rich fat cats or dirt farmers) and the next state says, "Geez, it worked for them. Our turn now!"
*sigh* Seems to prove that yet again...much like equine slaughter threads...the subject has to be juicy and spicy sounding like high tech Big Brother attacking the little guys in order to get any darned attention. Chips with GPS and Big Brother watching me half pass across a ring from a satellite? No way! Don't want it but won't research it and didn't listen about it or care at all when it was first, second, third and fourth warned about on here. Now that it's a possibility...still won't research it anywhere but from my comfy computer chair, won't get involved if it means picking up a telephone or God forbid showing up live somehwere or joining a council to help tailor it to suitable means that I can live with...but I'll sure as heck make noise about it in typing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Many areas the states are hoping to get input from their livestock owning residents on how to make this work. It's kinda here...but not everyone knows how they'll use it yet. They'll LISTEN to massive input and chatter from organized councils. *Go Join One* and be heard. $20 annually for a membership isn't going to break you...and then you can hopefully *hear* the other issues we're facing that's possibly even more heinous but not as thrilling as microchips from outerspace. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ryllie
Feb. 28, 2006, 06:20 PM
LostFarmer - Yes. I guess it's just a minor annoyance that the illegal coming across our border may be intending to release smallpox or ricin or something. On the other hand - maybe they're coming to steal our chickens. In that case - the microchips will help locate the stolen poultry, so it must be okay.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 06:32 PM
Latest news from TX:

"News Release
Texas Animal Health Commission
Box l2966 * Austin, Texas 78711 * (800) 550-8242 * FAX (512) 719-0719
Bob Hillman, DVM * Executive Director
For info, contact Carla Everett, information officer, at 1-800-550-8242, ext. 710, or ceverett@tahc.state.tx.us

For immediate release—February 28, 2006

TAHC Commissioners Set Meeting March 23 to Consider Proposed Regulations for Premises Identification Commissioners for the Texas Animal Health Commission (TAHC) will meet at 8 a.m. Thursday, March 23, in Round Rock (just north of Austin) to address proposed regulations for registering sites where livestock, exotic livestock, domestic fowl,
and exotic fowl are held, managed or handled. The meeting will be held in the Marriott North Hotel at 2600 La Frontera Blvd. in Round Rock and is open to the public.

“The TAHC commissioners proposed regulations for premises registration at their December meeting, following passage of HB 1361, the legislative authority for the rules and fee collection. The commissioners postponed action during their February session, opting for more time to consider the comments received during that meeting. It is important to note that the commissioners will focus solely on the proposed regulations for premises registration at the March 23 commission meeting,” said Dr. Hillman, Texas’ state veterinarian and head of the TAHC, the state’s livestock and poultry health regulatory agency.

The TAHC’s proposed regulations, “Premises and Animal Identification” were published in the December 23, 2005, issue of the Texas Register.

“The commissioners initially considered postponing action until May, but the commission needs to resolve this issue sooner, rather than later,” said Dr. Hillman. “The commissioners have a number of options in consideration of the proposed regulations. They may: adopt the proposed regulations as presented; amend the proposed regulations; forgo adoption; or further postpone action.”

“Premises registration is underway nationally, and is required in Wisconsin, and soon will be required in Indiana. More than
205,000 sites have been signed up — 7,500 of those in Texas.

Registration is relatively easy, and information requested is
limited, including a contact name, phone number, physical address and a list of species on the site. Registrants are not asked how many acres or animals they own,” said Dr. Bob Hillman, Texas’ state veterinarian and head of the TAHC, the state’s livestock and poultry health regulatory agency. He noted that Texas has more than 200,000 premises.

“Knowing where species of animals are located would greatly enhance our ability to alert owners and get ahead of a disease outbreak before it spreads. In 2002, for example, Exotic Newcastle Disease was detected in a neighborhood in Los Angeles. The infection raced through small flocks, then spread to 22 commercial flocks, costing $160 million to eradicate,” said Dr. Hillman. He said premises information, confidential by law, would enable animal health officials to “map out” emergency response, and save precious time searching for sites with susceptible species, and exposed or potentially infected animals.

Dr. Hillman said recommended amendments to the proposed regulations would allow 4-H and FFA students to be covered by their 4H club or FFA chapter premises identification numbers, if the students maintain animal projects on a site that, otherwise would not need to be registered.

Recommended amendments also would exempt persons if they have only caged exotic fowl (such as, but not limited to parakeets, budgies, finches, canaries, cockatiels, parrots and other caged birds) and these fowl are housed in the person’s residence and not used for sale, barter or exchange. Dr. Hillman noted that, during an avian disease outbreak, the TAHC may require the premises to be registered, if the site is within a quarantine, surveillance or eradication zone established by the TAHC for controlling or eradicating the disease.

The proposed regulations call for premises registration to be compulsory, beginning July 1, 2006. Persons could register their premises in Texas at no charge through June 30, 2006. The premises registered prior to July 1, 2006, would be due for a two-year renewal July 1, 2008, when a $10 per year fee would be paid as a biennial fee of $20 fee for two years.

Under the proposed regulations, persons who register on or after July 1, 2006, would pay the $20 two-year fee upon initial registration.

Registration renewal and the $20 two-year fee would be required every 24 months thereafter.

Premises can be registered now online at http://www.tahc.state.tx.us, or by completing a registration form and faxing or mailing it to the TAHC.

Many county extension agents, as well as agricultural associations, have registration forms available, or can assist in registering online. The TAHC also has staff members who can assist by phone. The TAHC’s headquarters in Austin can be reached toll-free at 1-800-550-8242."

A place to be, although I don't know how much public comment will be allowed at this meeting.

mairzeadoats
Feb. 28, 2006, 07:13 PM
Well, it's good to see that of the 200,000 premises they think they have in Texas, all of 7500 have voluntarily registered. Hopefully they'll fail equally miserably with the mandatory regisitration.

"Dr. Hillman noted that, during an avian disease outbreak, the TAHC may require the premises to be registered, if the site is within a quarantine, surveillance or eradication zone established by the TAHC for controlling or eradicating the disease."

Now this sentence horrifies me. So if your indoor, caged, never exposed to other animals, pet birds are within "an eradication zone" you will be required to reigster and possibly have your totally out of the loop birds "euthanized?" (The way they did with Newcastle, in California? By stuffing them live into woodchippers?)

Sorry, Mistyblue, but I'm with JSwan on this one. I've been through the NAIS web site and am not really happy about this.

Happily, up here in Maine most people don't bother to get dog licenses. My expecation, if it actually comes to pass, is that many, many people will simply fall off the radar.

For vet care, it dawned on me that at least one well-qualified local vet has lost his license to practice due to personal problems that don't interfere with his ability to practice. So there's potential to get illegal, but qualified, vet care. I may end up selling this place and moving totally off the grid.

Every time I read about this, I wonder why bother getting a new prospect and am grateful my guy will only be around a few more years. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

My specific concerns are:

1. lack of information. The NAIS web site is too vague for comfort. And a lot of what they say is wrapped in euphemisms. Could be interpreted any number of ways.

2. loss of privacy, having my place subject to warrantless searches. Am I doing anything wrong? No. But that's not the point. Viscious, power hungry head cases could use this to terrorize and harrass their neighbors. I've had it with the world. I just want to be left the eff alone.

3. loss of control over my animal's lives and deaths. Or rather, turning over control to Tyson Chicken and Halliburton.

3. USDA track record. Just look at how they've made end-runs around the recent attempts to block horse slaughter. And look at how they handled chicken slaughter in California. They couldn't do better than to stuff them live into woodchippers? It was too difficult to snap their necks?

4. loss of privacy -- having even more of my private information in the hands of BIG BIZ. Ijust want to be left the eff alone. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

actcasual
Feb. 28, 2006, 09:19 PM
Had to pass through work and couldn't resist checking back in to see if this maelstrom was still swirling: Barnyard Big Brother!
I appreciate Reed's reality check and, as almost everyone has pointed out, beyond the technolgical limitations, the simple logistics are way out there. Chickens and guineas and geese and stuff? right.
The Coggins comparison is just crap. A Coggins test is by no means mandatory: If you keep your horse at home and it doesn't leave the property, no one *really* cares if you have the test done or not. I get my retired mare done anyway, just in case, but my vet always shrugs and says only to do it if we think we're going to take her somewhere to get bred.
A microchip is a potential convenience for reliably identifying an animal. How is this so much more offensive than tatooing a TB to race? It's probably less stressful for the horse. And if President Bush would like to be notified when I'm unfortunate enough to have a horse die, then he's a better man than I gave him credit for. I thought the KWPN was the only organization that cared what became of Jake.

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 09:28 PM
actcasual: I am glad that Reed pointed out that what they want to do with the microchips is currently impossible. Of course, just 15 years ago, they said that it would take to much memory for the home pc to interpret language. And you couldn't get viruses from emails. My point is that technology evolves and changes to meet the demands places.

I have a question for you though, have you actually checked any of this out for yourself, or are you just being a sheep?

RAyers
Feb. 28, 2006, 10:15 PM
True DJ, but language recognition is a function of the software and computing power, e.g. the rate at which data is moved. (I did a langauge recogniton on Space Station proposal to NASA a few years back) It is not a function of the power supply. If you take apart your computer, you will see that power supplies have not gotten smaller. What has happened is that engineers have developed ways to use LESS power in computers and cell phones so that they can make smaller power supplies, but at the same time the output power is reduced. (new cell phones only put out 1.5 watts whereas old block cell phones put out 3 watts because the cell towers were farther apart).

There is NO commercial application to make these chips readable from great distances. It would be like making it so that your garage door opener works on LA when your home is in NY. People would not want that, not to mention you probably could open hundreds of other doors unintentionally because the numbers of individual codes is limited.

Reed

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 10:25 PM
LOL I understand better now. That doesn't mean that I like this any better, but at least I don't yet have to worry about Big Brother watching me from a satellite. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DJ
Feb. 28, 2006, 10:26 PM
At least not by tracking microchips. But they can see quite a bit with fly over photography, can't they? I mean isn't that were some of the intell. comes from?

*Y*
Feb. 28, 2006, 10:44 PM
DJ sorry I am late, but better late then never (no my mood has not improved and with them moving the date up almost 2 months it has gotten worse) With that being said....

County you smarmy little slimy scum sucking waste of flesh....come call me a liar just make sure you do it to my face I live on a 142 acres and will smear you all over it!!! I saw the original documents that our asteamed government had on the internt and have since pulled them. I went to their sites and read their little words on what exactley they have planned for us "little". Down to the last detail of arresting us and confiscating our animals if we don't comply. I have been kicking myself in the butt for days now because I didn't print it when I saw it, it was 3 am and everyone else in the house was sleeping so I fiquered I would go back and print it when everyone was awake. Well, they have since removed the incriminating document from the internet but I know what it said. Like I said come call me a liar if you just say iot on here you aren't worth my time cause you are a nutless wonder anyway!!!!

Sorry, RA I don't remember your full screen name but I have to comment on your post of them not being able to read a GPS chip in an animal. They do have the technoligy(sp? don't really care eaither at this moment) to do just that. When they put them in people, and they will, you won't even be able to a crap with out the government knowing it!!! If you don't believe the technoligy is already out there can speak and keep making my belief that you are fool even more believable!!!

Everything in that flyer is true, nothing was put into it just to draw attention. We used only the facts because they are horrifying all by themselves, they didn't need any help from any false propaganda. This is going to be in all 50 states and both terrotories if we don't stop it now. People keep saying it will happen someday anyway, yes it will if people keep going along like mindless sheep. All I can think of when I read these post about people being for it or argueing over the facts is baaaa baaaa baaaaa. People are acting just like the government wants them to baaaaa baaaa baaaaa.

Flame away I really don't give a crap at this particular moment. Heck I doubt I will ever care what narrow minded, living in a bubble government sheep think.

Y

RAyers
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:25 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to present, the troll.

Reed

TripleRipple
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by RAyers:

......These chips are only effective within a few inches of a reader. Thus there is no physical way to track these animals using GPS.
Reed

Questions - this article discusses tagging cervid herds in Colorado. Are they really able to do this or is there something missing? Thanks.
http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/articleview/2073/2/1/

"Advanced ID’s president and CEO, Dan Finch
Leach has been in contact with active RFID manufacturers Cattle Traq and Smart Ag Tag for the next trial, which he hopes to begin within a month. Just how long the read range will be may depend on the terrain, Leach says. However, both companies indicated their stationary interrogators can read up to a mile, while the handheld units vary from 600 feet to a half-mile."

Edited to add: I have also found other articles that mention that industry is working on microchips that will incorporate gps in order to track horses (like http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horsehealth/hhview.asp?recno=59924&subsec=5).

I don't know if the bioWatch chip specifically uses gps, but what I see online all points to us being on the very cusp of this type of advanced locating via an implanted chip device of some sort.

*Y*
Feb. 28, 2006, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by RAyers:
Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to present, the troll.

Reed


I am glad you can present yourself with such Honesty, never thought you would call yourself a troll though (so childish but so appropriate for someone who thinks they know about everything that the government can do)

Y

Sannois
Mar. 1, 2006, 03:20 AM
Ummmm wait, are we getting into the Black Helicopter theory Y ?? And Why do you come on here calling county such names???
And to whom ever said it .. WHAT NRA propaganda?????

Chanter
Mar. 1, 2006, 03:30 AM
Here the story I have been hearing directly from Texan's in chat last year, & now on national radio talk shows this year, is the road tax in Texas to be based on actual mileage driven. Sounds incredibly expensive for the common man.

armandh
Mar. 1, 2006, 04:13 AM
big brother for good or bad is already in place.
our local police dept tracked down a car jacker.
the car was found sans hood in east st louis IL.
but a list of owners of that model car with criminal history,
and known criminal associates in the area the car was found,
produced drivers license photos for the vic, in a photo line up, to identify.

Eventer55
Mar. 1, 2006, 04:21 AM
Sannois http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I have a warped sense of humor. . .

JSwan
Mar. 1, 2006, 04:29 AM
Golly gee willikers, Batman - this is perfect example of what I'm talking about. We get to arguing of who's crazy, stupid, a troll, yatta yatta. Great way to miss the point that people are trying to make.

No one, including people who oppose NAIS, has a problem with controlling disease. In my view, NAIS is not the answer. It's bloated, unwieldy, horribly expensive, is terribly capable of being misued, and in the end, there are many legal concerns that simply have not been resolved to my satisfaction.

Our social security numbers were never to be used for identification, either.

My point being is that perhaps people oppose NAIS because they simply don't trust the government. The goal of NAIS is to locate the source of an outbreak within 48 hours. Nothing new there - we can do it faster now without the benefit of a little old lady having to buy a scanner and chip her 13 year old pet goat.

One of the reasons people are registering their premises now is because if they do it voluntarily at this time, it is free. Later the owner will be charged - at least in Virginia - check this with yourown extension agent.

For the naysayers that say people simply won't obey so it's no big deal, you're right. Many people simply will not obey the law. Now how that will help prevent outbreaks? When show venues are required to scan for chips, guess you won't be going to them, will you. No more shows for you!

Here in Virginia, a mandatory chipping bill was introduced (for dogs and cats). SB55. One of the ways to enforce compliance? Drive by yard checks. Spot checks on residents to check dog and cat licenses. Since ACO's certainly don't have the rescources to do that - the proposal was to contract it out. SB55 was defeated - but there was a great deal of interest in it. It was simply another fundraiser for the General Fund - another day at the office for our august General Assembly.

Laugh all you want, make jokes about Big Brother and black helicopters. Ride your little horsies and have a great time. Eventually, when your show entry fees have gone up again, your board bill goes up because the owner has passed along NAIS costs to boarders, your locality has decided to tax horses as luxury personal property, your hay costs more because local producers have sold out to developers, come back to the BB and complain. We'll all have a pity party for you - and some of us will say I told you so.

lawndart
Mar. 1, 2006, 06:39 AM
Go to Google Earth and find your property. It can be done easily by anyone with a fast computer.

If you have ever done anything thru your Counties Extension agent, you already exist in the system. Same if you have sold off development rights, easements, etc.

You can't go 'off the grid' unless that property is not already on the grid.

Do I think NAIS is the answer? Heck No. I'm especially worried about my redneck neighbors that don't vaccinate, de-worm or have decent fences. If their horses come down with a contagious disease, what happens to mine?

But, in our very moveable society, disease can spread like wildfire, quick action is the only way to stop disaster.

What is the answer? I have no idea, but people had better get their heads out of the sand on this issue, and many others affecting equestrians.

Join your state Equine Council, NOW! At least support your fellow equestrians by giving more numbers to fight with. It would be great if people helped out too.

JSwan
Mar. 1, 2006, 07:07 AM
Off grid has nothing to do with finding your property on a map or GPS coordinates. Off grid means self reliance in all things - including sustenance. These folks prefer to decide for themselves what technology they choose to use, like using solar power instead of hooking up to the power grid. Or raising their own meat. No tv. Or other philosphy based decisions.

NAIS has no correlation to PDR's or easements, or being in any extension's "system". It's completely separate. Info your locality has like soil type, land use, etc is not required under NAIS at the present time. However, since the state is required to administer NAIS and act as a conduit to the federal database, I can see NAIS required information to be used in a way it was never intended, or the state requiring more information than NAIS requires.

The example of a new Virginia law is a quasi decent example. What type of dog you own, how many, what breed, what you do with them, their breeding status, where they live or are kenneled - all of that will now be public record. Because the rabies vaccination will be reported to the treasurer- not for disease tracking - but for monitoring and billing. That was not the intention of the legislature when they created laws to protect us and our animals from rabies.

Creating a link between disease control and revenue generation ain't that great an idea.

RAyers
Mar. 1, 2006, 07:16 AM
Questions - this article discusses tagging cervid herds in Colorado. Are they really able to do this or is there something missing? Thanks.
http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/articleview/2073/2/1/

"Advanced ID’s president and CEO, Dan Finch
Leach has been in contact with active RFID manufacturers Cattle Traq and Smart Ag Tag for the next trial, which he hopes to begin within a month. Just how long the read range will be may depend on the terrain, Leach says. However, both companies indicated their stationary interrogators can read up to a mile, while the handheld units vary from 600 feet to a half-mile."

Edited to add: I have also found other articles that mention that industry is working on microchips that will incorporate gps in order to track horses (like http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horsehealth/hhview.asp?recno=59924&subsec=5).

I don't know if the bioWatch chip specifically uses gps, but what I see online all points to us being on the very cusp of this type of advanced locating via an implanted chip device of some sort.


The key in the article is this comment:

"Advanced ID does not currently provide active tag systems, but might do so if it sees significant commercial interest, Finch says."

Active tag systems can only transmit information from 300 feet or so (I doubt that they can read from 1 mile unless conditions are optimum). No matter, it is a LOT less than 22,000 miles.

The stationary reader must pulse a large amount of power to power up passive chips (what are in common use). And this is only to read from feet away.

As for reading vital signs, the vets and doctors are talking about a lot of far off stuff. Right now, for example, there are chips tha can read blood glucose but they only work for 3 days and must be replaced surgically. These are passive chips so the patient must go to the doctor's office to read the data. When it comes to reading vital statistics, the difficulty is that the chip becomes an active part of the physiology and thus can become incompatible and rejected by the body. Current passive chips are inert because they are sealed in glass and placed in tissue that is not as vascular as other tissues.

While much of what folks, such as those that *Y* mentions, say is partially correct, their comments contain just enough truth to be believeable. The reality is that they are bringing up possiblilites that are physically (literally by the laws of physics) so difficult we do not have the materials or technology to do it.

When people say that we are on the "cusp" they forget to mention that the "cusp" is 100 years from now. For instance we were supposed to have fusion power by 1970, then 1990, then 2010 and now they say 2050.

Again marketing allows people to sidestep the real and pragmatic problems that have to be overcome. If active RFID only work for a mile, think how much more difficult trying to read it over 10,000 miles will be.

Reed

lynntelaak
Mar. 1, 2006, 07:51 AM
NAIS is currently in the national policy book for Farm Bureau. They are working to make this law useful to farmers. If you want a voice JOIN FARM BUREAU. I am in the middle of a membership drive for my county. I have approached 6 horse owners. Everyone of them said Farm Bureau has nothing to do with them! Our county is actively recruiting horse owners because we feel Farm Bureau can represent them and wants to represent them. So join now and add your voice and vote to Farm Bureau policy at the county, state, and national levels.

lawndart
Mar. 1, 2006, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by J Swan:
Off grid has nothing to do with finding your property on a map or GPS coordinates. Off grid means self reliance in all things - including sustenance. These folks prefer to decide for themselves what technology they choose to use, like using solar power instead of hooking up to the power grid. Or raising their own meat. No tv. Or other philosphy based decisions. <span class="ev_code_GREEN">Yes, that is the original meaning of off grid. It is also known as self reliance, anti's, etc. BUT off grid doesn't mean just off the power grid, it also means out of sight of governmental radar. If you have used any of the services I listed above, you are on their radar.</span> <span class="ev_code_GREEN">It could also be said that you are no longer self-reliant if you have used these services.</span>

NAIS has no correlation to PDR's or easements, or being in any extension's "system". It's completely separate. Info your locality has like soil type, land use, etc is not required under NAIS at the present time. However, since the state is required to administer NAIS and act as a conduit to the federal database, I can see NAIS required information to be used in a way it was never intended, or the state requiring more information than NAIS requires. <span class="ev_code_GREEN">I can see NAIS failing with voluntary compliance, looking around to see how they can identify livestock owners. Do you really think that your state extension office, or any government office refusing to co-operate with the NAIS? Most of the people who work in those jobs agree with the basis for NAIS, and if they don't, will they risk their jobs just to protect information that is already in the state system?</span>

The example of a new Virginia law is a quasi decent example. What type of dog you own, how many, what breed, what you do with them, their breeding status, where they live or are kenneled - all of that will now be public record. Because the rabies vaccination will be reported to the treasurer- not for disease tracking - but for monitoring and billing. That was not the intention of the legislature when they created laws to protect us and our animals from rabies. <span class="ev_code_GREEN">Which again right now only affects those responsible enough to vaccinate. And doesn't affect cats at all! </span>

Creating a link between disease control and revenue generation ain't that great an idea. <span class="ev_code_GREEN">Agreed! But I'm also not sure if making another government run elephant where people just put in their time, so they can collect their pension in twenty years is a good thing either. </span>

Look, I'd rather this all wasn't happening either. But it is, and arguing over the meaning of certain words or if this should happen is a waste of time. At this point, I think the best we can do is limit the damage this elephant will cause.

lawndart
Mar. 1, 2006, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by lynntelaak:
NAIS is currently in the national policy book for Farm Bureau. They are working to make this law useful to farmers. If you want a voice JOIN FARM BUREAU. I am in the middle of a membership drive for my county. I have approached 6 horse owners. Everyone of them said Farm Bureau has nothing to do with them! Our county is actively recruiting horse owners because we feel Farm Bureau can represent them and wants to represent them. So join now and add your voice and vote to Farm Bureau policy at the county, state, and national levels. <span class="ev_code_RED">YES! Our Farm Bureau got behind the push for the Equine Liability Law, it was a big help. If the Farm Bureau has nothing to do with Equestrians, where are you getting your hay & Straw? Preserving farmland is important not just for open space, but for crops as well. </span>

JSwan
Mar. 1, 2006, 08:13 AM
Been a member of the Farm Bureau for years.

You know, since I have personally have contact with a group in Virginia that thinks drive by yard checks is a fantastic idea, and some legislators agree, and bills have been introduced to that effect - I don't see how I'm fearmongering. Who cares if a chip can be read by 10,000 miles in the year 2060. Right now they can be read from the road in front of my farm. By anybody. There are no provisions in existing laws regarding microchipping that prohibits private parties from misusing the scanning technology - only attempts to alter implanted chips. I really don't want nut cases or the gov't assembling one foot beyond my property line trying to obtain info about my animals, thank you very much. In the case of the gov't, I'd really prefer if they had that little annoying requirement called probable cause.

Horse owners consider themselves separate from ag issues - but they are not. Every single issue that faces farmers can impact horse owners -regardless of discipline.

I get more useful information about horse ownership from ag related publications than I ever did from Dressage Today or Practical Horseman. Got rid of those rags years ago.

Technology is great, can enrich our lives, enhance communication, and all sorts of wonderful things. It's also horribly misused. Often it's a question of not "can we do it" but "should we do it".

DJ
Mar. 1, 2006, 08:25 AM
Reed: I really appreciate the info that you are giving me on the state of the art today in microchips. BUT ( you knew there had to be one http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) if there is a will and money they will find a way. Maybe it won't be satellites that read the chips. Could they develop one that could be read in the distance of say, a cell phone tower? That is only like 10 miles. What if they powered it off the energy that the body itself creates? Could that change the formula any? I guess I am a bit of a sci-fi thinker, but there have been so many things that have changed in the past 50 years, that they said simply couldn't be done. There weren't enough materials, energy etc. Think about the difference between the first computer and the laptop. Silcon chips changed everything. Even the A bomb was untried. 50 years ago, going to the moon was thought to be impossible. I guess I am looking that far ahead, but I have concerns about giving up potential freedom that could be deadly in the wrong hands, when there are many less invasive, less expensive means to accomplish the same goal.

RAyers
Mar. 1, 2006, 08:34 AM
Sure someone can read the chips form th eroad or a few miles away but remember these chips only have a very limited memory. For instance the chips the Advanced ID talks about only have room for 15 numbers. Thus to anybody reading the chip, the data is useless unless they have access to the database that contains the specific animal data.

What I am saying here is that the technological requirements for this type of system is beyond what we can do efficiently and effectively. Heck, FEMA can't even track a truckload of ice and water! What makes people think that the USDA will do any better on a smaller budget?

I agree about giving up rights and privacy. I am against this but I also choose my battles.

We must remember, the US government and congress have short memories. The only reason that this is being pushed is because somebody at the top wants to push it. Change the administration and this will be forgotten because nobody will want to put the money into developing the needed technology.

Reed

DJ
Mar. 1, 2006, 08:55 AM
The following is a letter to the local paper here in Austin:



A letter sent to John Kelso, a column writer of the Austin American Statesman Newspaper

Mad Horses or Mad Horse Owners?

John, I read your Friday, February 17th column about
Leslie. On the same page was an article reporting:
"Vote delayed on tracking farm animals" by Claire
Osborn. I suggest there is more than enough
ridiculously humorous material regarding the "National
Animal Identification System" and the proposed Texas
Animal Health Commission (TAHC) regulations to
implement an animal identification system in Texas for
a "bunch" of columns!

As an owner of a couple of nags, I am irate about what
the Legislature seemingly passed without any notice
and is now shoving down our throats via the TAHC
proposed regulations. They (the Leg.) couldn't
address school funding adequately, and they couldn't
fund state parks adequately and they couldn't
seemingly fund anything else adequately, despite the
Comptroller saying we have $40 some BILLION dollars of
unspent money in the state coffers, but they COULD and
DID pass stupid legislation which now requires me to
register my horses! And, to rub it in, to charge me a
fee of which approximately 80% will be going into the
state's "general fund" -- just another darn tax!

We all assume, of course, this "need" to register
livestock comes from the "mad cow" scares. Well maybe
we DO need a system in place about animals we EAT, but
do we eat horses? Or for that matter, do we eat dogs
and cats? I suggest there are far more diseases
passed to humans by dogs and cats than by horses! If
we're gonna register horses, why not register dogs and
cats too? Or, is that coming down the line later,
after the current propositions are already in place?
Or do the Legislators just realize they'd tee off each
and every cat/dog owner and lose that battle before
ever beginning it?

The TAHC says the purpose of the regulations is to
protect the health of Texas livestock and that
includes virtually everything except dogs and cats and
most definitely includes horses, mules and jackasses,
excepting the two legged kind in our Legislature and
apparently in our Texas Animal Health Commission! Why
in the H_ _ _ isn't the purpose stated as the
protection of people's health??? THE HEALTH OF HUMANS
-- does that come too close to universal medical
protection? How many diseases are passed from horses
to humans anyway? Other that a kick from a mule once
in awhile, I've never heard of a human getting sick
from an equine!

By the way, did you ever try to contact a
"Commissioner" serving on the Texas Animal Health
Commission? I can get their names, but no address or
telephone number other than just the general, central
address, phone and e-mail of the TAHC. Am I not
entitled to the home information via the rights I have
as a taxpayer and citizen?

Enough of this ranting and raving. I'm going to do
everything I can to block these proposed regulations
or at least limit them to animals consumed by humans.
I'm also going to get involved in some demands on
Legislators to be more accountable to us voters. In
the interim, I'm going to forward you an e-mail and
information which gives the specifics of the TAHC
proposed regulations so that you will know that my
facts and figures can be checked. Thank you for your
time. K.W. (kelly) Boesen, registered Travis County
voter; member and former Director, Texas Equestrian
Trail Riders Association; angry horse owner! Address:
9304 Rock Way Drive, Austin, TX 78736, phone home:
(512) 288-3353 or cell 627-7439.

After any final rulings by the TAHC was postponed, they tentatively set the date for the next public meeting for May 4, 2006. Place and time will be posted on their website. Meeting date moved up now to March 23rd!!

More national info can be found at http://www.nonais.org/

Also, about thefts of livestock and the microchips.....one man at the last meeting said in his speech that there is already technology out there to "clean" or erase those chips! He said thieves are always one step ahead of everything! All they have to do is erase yours and insert their own!


Reed: This is sort of conspiracy theory, but...did you ever think that they WANT us to believe that they can't manage information well enough to track even ice and water?

And the people that would put the readers on cell phone towers would be the ones that only need the id number. The would already have the rest of the info in their data base.

Yes, you do have to choose your battles. I guess I am choosing this one because it is in process now and it is in my backyard, well my front yard too, but you know what I mean. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

When will this be close enough to hit home for you? That is a question that I am asking everybody...if not now, when will we take a stand.

Personally, I like some of the suggestions that have been put forth about joining local Farm Bureaus. I figured that they would want me as I am so small time, and don't own meat stock (my chickens are pets, so far all I have eaten of them are eggs.)

JSwan
Mar. 1, 2006, 08:57 AM
Rayers - I don't want to nitpick but you need to read up on NAIS. The technology does indeed exist, and states are already implementing premises registration. The information contained in the chip is not useless, such info is already obtained at slaughterhouses through ear tags, chips and other methods. All NAIS is doing is taking a bunch of different systems and putting them in one place through state collection points. No development of additional technology is needed to implement NAIS in its current form. The USDA budget is not totally funding NAIS. NAIS is a State/Federal/private entity program (it's the private entity stuff that produced the current hiatus and possible restructuring of NAIS).

It's the other stuff that "ain't right", as we white trash Southerners like to say.

Yes, FEMA can't do much of anything right. But FEMA still exists, and is still in charge of disasters. Once the gov't creates something - by God they'll make it permanent one way or t'other.

DJ - in case you missed my earlier rants - I mean posts - there was a bill in the Virginia GA that WOULD have mandated microchipping of ALL domestic animals. Gerbils, hamsters, dogs, cats, birds, repitles, etc. Why Virginia feels the need to microchp a pet chameleon is beyond me. But there was a GREAT deal of interest and support of this bill. NAIS would have covered all the livestock - but SB55 was for pets/domestic animals.

Legislatures are loath to commit revenue to specific things. They love the General Fund.

For those who think that information will be protected in government databases, the GAO recently had data pertaining to financial transactions amounting to several billion dollars stolen from its warehouse where its backups are stored.

Is your data safe? Of course not. And certainly not under NAIS.

ise@ssl
Mar. 1, 2006, 09:16 AM
LLDM - I agree with you. As a breeder I'll endure the extra cost to have all the horses micro-chipped to assure that all horses are tracked as well. There are far too many diseases that can AND HAVE caused emotional and economic distress to horse owners when a disease is spread.

And I also feel if it reduces the number of people who breed more horses when they can't afford them or to provide adequate care for them. Go to the killers and see the number being sent to slaughter.

It will also control fraud in horse sales - one swipe with the microchip wand and the horse will be I.D.'d.

*Y*
Mar. 1, 2006, 09:28 AM
First my apoligies to those of you who are truly interested in this, want to know more about it and to those that are against it, for my first posts. I was a little fed up yesterday and when I saw DJ getting slammed from all directions, and being laughed at I got a little irratated.

I have only known about HB 1361 and NAIS for a little less then two weeks and activley been telling everyone I can about the subject. It has been funny how the government has been back tracking and pulling anything that is incrimanting to them off of there sites. Now they just have little snippets of what they think the public needs to know. If this was really about disease control and safety don't you think they would be yelling it from the roof tops and telling everyone about it? The truth is they are hiding what they can from the people it is supposed to protect and trying to lead them blindly down the path that they choose for them.

It was mentioned earlier by someone that they have worked with NASA, was that for them or just on one of their projects? I know people that work for NASA and have for years and that have worked on the military defense systems and the technogy is in place now to do exactley what they want to do with it.

This is a serious threat to all who own any animals, not just livestock, the plans are inclusive of every animal at any time that they see fit to include them. They fiquere once they bring down the livestock they will just start implementing the dogs, cats and as funny as it sounds fish. They can and they will do it. When I read some of the posts, like people laughing about it, it sounds like they work for the government and are trying to make the people that now know look like fools to diswade(sp?) the public from listening to them.

There have been some outstanding posts made on this thread and I look forward to reading them later, right now I have to go meet with some folks on revising our plans (since they moved the meeting up) on how to attack this. Yes, attack is a strong word as is the action that needs to be taken against this.

Y

JSwan
Mar. 1, 2006, 09:40 AM
Do any of y'all even know how livestock is handled in the US? Do you think that there is no disease tracking, even of horses?

If you think it's going to reduce the number of horses sent to slaughter - you have absolutely no clue what NAIS is. One swipe and the animal is ID'd? Do you think the state of origin has issued an Amber Alert for a lost or stolen horse and some worker in Texas is going to remove that animal from the line? Oh please. Even the USDA has admitted that there will be a lot of fraud and chip tampering.

Will it reduce irresponsible breeding? Wellll.... how will NAIS make irresponsible people responsible? Horses will be bred, premises will not be registered, horses will be sent to slaughter - none of this is affected by NAIS.

The American Horse Council supports NAIS - one of the reasons is that it will control Borna disease - uh - last seen in 1885. Do any of you even know what Borna disease is? How about Glanders? Know why there are no cases in the US? Because no horses can be imported if they test positive for Glanders. Methods already exist to protect horses. The AHC position is nothing more than scaring horse owners into accepting NAIS without thinking about it.

If you insist on supporting NAIS - at least do it for the right reasons. None of what you posted about will in any way, shape or form be affected by NAIS.

The organization that pushed the concept of NAIS on the USDA to begin with is a group composed of big agribusiness and tech and chip manufacturers. They don't give a fig if your lost horse ends up on a dinner plate in Japan. NAIS has NOTHING to do with the welfare, slaughter, or breeding of horses.

daisy
Mar. 1, 2006, 10:15 AM
Thank you OP for fighting NAIS.

JSwan is telling it like it is. This has nothing to do with helping you track your lost horse or fight disease. It's about control and wealth. Corp. gain and individuals lose.

There are different rules for corporate producers and other rules for individual animal owners. i.e. The corp. gets one number for all their animals. The individual has a number for each animal and is required to report all kinds of activity with that animal.

Anybody who thinks this, or most anything else coming down the pike these days, is a good idea must have been asleep in history class. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

DJ
Mar. 1, 2006, 11:03 AM
Three books that everyone should read, if they haven't already: Brave New World, by Aldous Huxley, Animal Farm and 1984 by George Orwell.

(Dang, did I just highjack my own thread? )

RAyers
Mar. 1, 2006, 11:12 AM
*Y*, I worked for the Air Force (literally as a rocket scientist) as well as NASA. I still work for NASA part time. People love to say the technology exists because it makes them sound cool. I use the technology in my research, I work with folks that use the technology on a daily basis in industry and I have to say what NAIS people say and the reality is quite different.


Rayers - I don't want to nitpick but you need to read up on NAIS. The technology does indeed exist, and states are already implementing premises registration. The information contained in the chip is not useless, such info is already obtained at slaughterhouses through ear tags, chips and other methods. All NAIS is doing is taking a bunch of different systems and putting them in one place through state collection points. No development of additional technology is needed to implement NAIS in its current form. The USDA budget is not totally funding NAIS. NAIS is a State/Federal/private entity program (it's the private entity stuff that produced the current hiatus and possible restructuring of NAIS).

Jswan, ask anybody in IT and they will tell you combining systems at this scale is almost insurmountable. Ask the FBI when they tried to create facial recognition for airports. They failed spectacularly when it came time to test. They system was so easily fooled and trying to access specific data in real time was next to impossible because the databases were too large.

What people say about this technology is just words. The reality is going to prove so comlex and difficult it will fail just from an applications point of view. Trying to manage a database that contains over 300 million seperate entries with 16 subsets for each entry is something only very few entities in the world can do right now (Drug companies doing drug discovery can come close and nulcear research labs can using top line super computers).

I am against NAIS on many levels and I will fight it simply by understanding that the folks who tout the technology don't understand what they are saying and will fail. I have too many other causes I am leading so I am happy to give DJ, Jswan, Stegall, and others the glory of this battle.

Reed

DJ
Mar. 1, 2006, 11:53 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif GEE thanks Reed. I think that it is a dubious honor at best! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Sabina
Mar. 1, 2006, 11:58 AM
I was trying to explain this NAIS to my SO when he came home from work last night, and he had the same response I did...if "they" can't even keep track of humans that need to be off the road, like drunk drivers and sex offenders, how in the world could they really expect to be able to track all the animals?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
The entire thing will be so impossible to equally implement, and enforcement will be so selective and politically motivated, it will encourage non-compliance. We are heading towards the same government system the Soviets had before the fall of Communism...Big Brother is supposed to be watching you, but he can be bribed not to watch too hard.

TripleRipple
Mar. 1, 2006, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by RAyers:

When people say that we are on the "cusp" they forget to mention that the "cusp" is 100 years from now. For instance we were supposed to have fusion power by 1970, then 1990, then 2010 and now they say 2050.

Again marketing allows people to sidestep the real and pragmatic problems that have to be overcome. If active RFID only work for a mile, think how much more difficult trying to read it over 10,000 miles will be.

Reed

Thanks for the input - and good point about the marketing too. I need to research some of this stuff further.

Part of what got me thinking about NAIS and where it could go, and a lot of other things was reading "The Singularity" by Ray Kurzweil. I admit to skipping parts, and having a general feeling that some things he stated were totally unsupported. But his idea is that our tech growth is exponential, not linear, and in a nutshell, advancements will occur much faster than anyone can almost conceive, to the point that humanity will be profoundly changed. In a matter of years and decades, not centuries or longer as was true previously.

Some days it seems like the only way this could NOT happen is if we all self-destruct.

*Y*
Mar. 1, 2006, 12:21 PM
There have been some really profound post, and I was glad to read them. I was given these political cartoons to put out on the fight against HB 1361 and NAIS and I would like to share them with y'all!!

I don't know how to post them on here so I am just going to put the links.

Both can be reprinted by whom ever and distibuted, as long as the Hitler one is reprinted in color, and they are used to get the word out about HB1361 and NAIS.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/Horseofadiffrent/HBHITLER.jpg



http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/Horseofadiffrent/HBMark.jpg



Please take note, these weren't ment to offend anyone but to raise awareness about what is happening with in our government!

Y

dutchmike®
Mar. 1, 2006, 02:17 PM
Yep In holland it started off very logically aswell. Now we have a manure quota and get fined if our animals produce more then X tons of manure per farm cows can only produce X amount of milk etc etc. My advice just ignore it and then cry when it is to late

Stacy
Mar. 1, 2006, 02:44 PM
10 years ago, when our electric and rural water companies told us that our electric meter and water meter would be read remotely, we kinda chuckled about it. Well guess what? As of June of 2005, and January 2006, we no longer have to read it manually. A vehicle from each of the power and water companies drives by once a month, points their little meter reader thingie at our farm, and viola~ the meter is read. (and they drive by on a tar road 2 miles from us!) This is no small feat for the water company, because the meter is in our concrete block-walled basement.

So, I'm sorry, but if some on tells me it CAN'T be done, I won't believe them, it may not be able to be done RIGHT THIS INSTANT, but it MAY be coming!!

We raise pork, beef, and also raise a few chickens for sale and the kids' 4-H projects. We also have 3 horses, that don't do much but go for a meander down the road or on a little trail ride, or check the cows out in the pasture. Let me tell you that it's already here (not at our farm particularly, but other farms in our state). They are registering 'barn' or 'lot' numbers, not individual animals. We won't be able to afford to keep farming if it hits us 'small producers'. It will be a tough pill for my husband to swallow. (He is a 4th generation farmer).

RAyers
Mar. 1, 2006, 03:51 PM
Stacy and your meter has a powered transmitter in place. Folks we are talking about trying to implant devices in animals! There are significant size and power restrictions that have to be considered. If you want, please come to my biomaterials lectures and I will fully explain the differences. Just because something is done out side the body, does NOT mean it will work inside the body.

An example is diabetes testing. Sure we can make fairly accurate readers if you draw blood. Try to do it witin the body? Not yet. The smallest internal reader is the size of a dime. And becasue of its size it will cause a chronic inflammatory response because where it is in the tissue. Also there is limited amount of glucose it can measure. It must be removed or an abcess will develop. It is the same technology as the handheld readers but it DOES NOT WORK in the body. Look at artificial hearts. They contain internal power supplies but those take up a large chunk of your stomach and the inductive power supply must be kept near since the batteries can only last 1/2 hour. Or consider the photo chip for GI tract observation. You swallow a transmitter the size of a horse pill that photographs your insides so they can find any polyps. Well its power lasts for only 24 hours.

A actively powered RFID chip that transmits over long distances will be too big to redside in the body without significant risk of damaging that tissue.

Passive chip work because they must be encased in glass which is inert to the body but also limits size and ability to transmit information.

Please realize that what you see outside of the body has no limit to its size while inside there are a whole different set of requirements. That is why these folks are going to fail.

Reed

JSwan
Mar. 1, 2006, 04:40 PM
RAyers - I gotta disagree with you on the data collection capability of the feds, or any other entity for that matter. Storage is a huge industry. StorageTek, Datalink, Sanz, STK, EMC, are just some of the names in storage. BoozeAllen just got a huge contract for DFAS -accounting for the Armed Forces. They are making money hand over fist in data collection, storage and backup systems. You don't need people - you just need computers.

The technology relevant to NAIS does not need to be developed or designed or tested. It already exists and has for a long time. It's just simple data collection and retrieval - there is no cutting edge technology needed for NAIS.

Maybe we're talking about two different things? I'm referring specifically to the current available microchips designed for agricultural use, not artifical hearts and other biomaterials. I realize there is a lot of confusion.

Unfortunately, the USDA is doing a bit of a sneaky pete on us. The factory farms get lot numbers, granny and her laying hen get their premises - which is their HOME - registered and the terrorist chicken gets microchipped. The USDA has not responded or resolved any issues concerning religious freedom or privacy issues.

Yeah, it's stupid. It's stupid that the gov't thinks messing with the existing system of disease reporting and tracking is more important than monitoring our borders or making sure our troops have adequate equipment.

For the evening crowd that doesn't feel like wading through the posts, let me take a moment to remind/inform you that NAIS and it's mandatory chipping have absolutely no correlation to finding lost or stolen horses, stopping slaughter, or ending "irresponsible breeding". Your chipped horse, if lost or stolen, will not be located through NAIS.

RAyers
Mar. 1, 2006, 05:56 PM
Jswan,

I am not talking about the hardware. I am talking about software for databases and integration of those systems. When I worked at Amgen we had a computer system that rivaled DoD because we were working with calculations and databases that are similar to the storage needed for nuclear weapons development. We had full time computer software engineers and database experts on staff. I am quite familiar with BoozAllen and Storage tek(they are just up the road and bought out Maxtor). It was an insanely difficult process to integrate and manage these databases.

People are giving this government too much credit when it comes to technology. All of the spaceflight hardware and software is 15-20 years old. Even the spy satellite stuff is ancient compared to commercial products. The government is slow and cumbersome. I designed solid rocket motors for a specific mission and it took them 10 years to build and launch them. The avionics packages on the most advanced systems were 30 years old when we launched them becasue the MIL Specs were that old. When they updated them 12 years ago they finally allowed 286 computer chips to fly while we all had Pentiums. There is more processing power and memory in your desktop than the entire Shuttle.

The US government can not handle BIG complex tasks, period. They are inept. We got to the moon because there was a specific directive from the president and a hell of a lot of resources were committed. NAIS is the same.

NAIS will collapse under it own technological, application and enfocement weight.

Consider this, every implantable joint has a specific ID and serial number recorded with the FDA incase there is a problem. When SulzerMedica found that they left machine oil in the hips (causing the hip to fail due to toxicity to the bone), they reported it to the government. They still have not located ALL of only 5,500 people who have these hips. Do you think NAIS will be able to locate you if there is over 300 MILLION animals and over 100 million people (including dog and cat owners) registered?

NAIS is a pipe dream that feeds on conspiracy theory. It makes it look like the federal and state governments are doing something without any help (e.g. the No Child Left Behind unfunded mandate). These are people who read cool science books and think it is doable. The companies involved are in it for the money and have yet tried to really make it work. Brand inspection states (Colorado is one) can't get everybody to get a brand even though it is required for horses.

If we all simply don't even get a chip (and give the government the middle finger salute) the government would have to find and fine over 100 million people (let's say only 5 million for horse and cattle owners). Yeah, and they will manage to make sure we all pay our parking tickets too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I believe that when people educate themselves beyond just the local, legal and sociological aspects they can be pretty powerful. A woman at the barn a long time ago had her house near the only place in the US where the triggers for nulear weapons were made. The soil contamination out there was and still is horrendous. She spent time understanding every aspect about the pollution and the effects of plutonium on the surrounding community. She became and expert witness against the plant. Becasue of part of her work the place was investigated by the FBI and finally shut down.

Check the Office of Budget Management and see where money for this program is coming from, or even if it is funded. Go beyond the manufacturers websites and look at other sources.

Stop watching CSI Miami, Numbers and the like. They are TV shows. They don't even come close to reality. For instance the PCR required for identifying DNA takes a week or so, depending, to complete but in the show it is snap and done.


Reed

DJ
Mar. 1, 2006, 08:00 PM
Stop watching CSI Miami, Numbers and the like. They are TV shows. They don't even come close to reality. For instance the PCR required for identifying DNA takes a week or so, depending, to complete but in the show it is snap and done.


Okay, I could stop watching them, if I ever had been watching them. Please don't make erroneous assumptions about where our info is coming from. Over all, this is a fairly internet savy board and we don't generally take a random website or TV show as reality.

Didn't I understand you correctly that it could be possible in the future to scan a 15 digit number from a microchip at a relatively close distance of no more than 10 miles?

edited to add: the budget is coming out of our pockets, we are the ones that are going to pay for scanners, chips and administration. At least in TX. Plus, a few people paying $1000 a day will certainly help support the program and its enforcement.

*Y*
Mar. 1, 2006, 10:20 PM
RA, I thinketh thou protested to much.

Not to mention I jut got off the phone with someone who works for the government and guess what they said about this??? You are wrong they do have the technology to do this now. I am though going to investigate more (I know the Mother of a person who works closely with the President), I am going to contact her and see if she will have her son contact me. I know, the way you are protesting whatever they or anyone says will be wrong. You will be right no matter what. Someone might actually have believed you, if you had said it once and answered a few questions. You are going to far into and I know far to many people that have worked with defense equipment and such. So I know better, but the others will have to make up their own minds about it.

Jswan, thank you for your posts, they have been informative and insightful.

Y

JSwan
Mar. 2, 2006, 05:15 AM
I don't watch network tv.

Please don't assume that people against NAIS are closeted in their mother's basement, printing leaflets about the Men in Black.

We all know how inept gov't is and how popular unfunded mandates are - gets politicians a lot of votes without actually having to do anything. The folks on this BB against horse slaughter learned that to their great sorrow.

Whether the gov't is going to fall flat on its face or not, portions of NAIS are being implemented right now at the state level. Even though NAIS is currently under review - the information is still being collected under threat of some ambiguous penalty or future fees.

Anecdotes about biomaterial, oily hip replacements and other fiasco's notwithstanding, the feds are still actively implmenting this program. So the problem exists NOW. Enforcement, competency, funding - that's in the near future - and most certainly will be a complete and utter disaster.

But by then NAIS will by the system in place, and will continue in some form of another, warts and all.

If you own any livestock of any species, and particularly if you are a small or organic farmer, NAIS is of great concern. Not because of consipracy theories, but because small scale farming operates on the edge of a knife point already. NAIS will do small farmers no favor.

The thought of requiring the Amish to have a computer to report "incidents" makes me laugh. When an Amish farmer brought that up at a USDA meeting, the extension agent offered to help the farmer fill out the premises registration form, since doing it himself violated the tenets of his faith. The reps at this meeting sidestepped the question that merely requiring the Amish to provide the information at all was a violation of his rights. Same with the rest of the population.

Yet..... the USDA continues to implement it. Even on this BB people say that if it makes them "safer" they are ok with NAIS. That's ignorant. NAIS will do nothing to make any human being or animal "safer". You want to see a real threat to our nation's health? Look up in the sky. Migratory birds. Can't do much about them, can we....

patchworkpony
Mar. 2, 2006, 07:28 AM
Just a thought, but if they want to track our animals, then how long until they want to microchip and track humans? Talk about no privacy!

RAyers
Mar. 2, 2006, 08:22 AM
Here are the facts:

RFID is every where. It is used on toll roads, in stores to prevent theft, credit card scanners, electronic door locks and so on.

From MIT, this is a primer class on RFID technologies from August 2005. This will give you a bsic education on all of the technologies to RFID, irs advantages and limitations.

http://www.scirus.com/srsapp/search?q=rfid+AND+power+AN...=mitocw&g=d&drill=no (http://www.scirus.com/srsapp/search?q=rfid+AND+power+AND+data&t=all&ds=mitocw&g=d&drill=no)

Please look at Figure 1 from the first link which shows FAILURE modes in RFID technolgy. Note the fact that there are so many failure modes both in the software and environment that RFID is easily fooled or blocked. In section 1.5.2.2 it is noted that RFID can not separate between individual tags in a pile (e.g. when your cattle are all bunched in a herd). The only way to identify individuals is to still HAND separate the tags (or cattle). Thus, I feel it is doubtful that a person could drive by your farm and identify individual animals from the road using RFID. If you want, house your animals in a metal building since it will act as its own antenna and scatter the transponder signals making things even more difficult.

Patents such as:

DIAGNOSTIC RADIO FREQUENCY IDENTIFIFCATION SENSORS AND APPLICATIONS THEREOF

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO2005074161&F=0

METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR A LIVESTOCK DATA COLLECTION AND MANAGEMENT SYSTEM

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=EP1076485&F=0

Use ideas that have not even been developed yet such as MEMS (Micro Electro Mechanical Systems). Or they develop software architectures that work well for small operations but not large scale ones.

Here is data from the world's largest maker of RFID chips for animal tracking. This is a chip we use in animal ID for drug research. Note it has no real power, can not be read through a metal shield and is very limited in the information contained. Read the data sheet for all of the specs.

http://www.ti.com/rfid/docs/products/transponders/RI-TRP-RR2B.shtml

RFID can work in the cattle industry because there a a few points in the tracking chain where all animals must pass (slaughter plants, feed lots). Horses are a completely different industry. State's borders are porous. Horses move and change hands constantly with no single point of contact for all horses.

By the way, the links I provide are only a few of the over 300 journal and website RFID links I have found during my RFID research when I worked for Amgen.

Reed

JSwan
Mar. 2, 2006, 08:59 AM
Probably one of the reasons large herds don't have to have individual tags. Just a lot number. Only small herds have to have individual tags.

Reed - you should be on the equine advisory committee for NAIS. At least you know more about how this specific technology does not make sense for the equine industry. It wouldn't ally my concerns with the legal aspects of NAIS, and I'd still oppose it on those grounds, but it doesn't seem like the current committe has done any good - for whatever reason.

Sleepy
Mar. 2, 2006, 09:25 AM
fwiw, there is already one company that is micro-chipping its employees. Would I work for someone like that? Not in this lifetime!

RAyers
Mar. 2, 2006, 10:03 AM
Sleepy, are you talking about implanted chips? I highly doubt that is true. Outside the domain of veterinary medicine, RFID chips have never been approved as long term medical devices and thus if it is done it is illegal. It is against Federal Law for anything that is implanted for long term in humans must be labeled and tracked by the manufacturer due to the possiblity of failure, or inducing an adverse health response (e.g. breast implants). I doubt a commercial company would be willing to open itself up to legal malpractice as having or supporting implantable micro-chips in humans. Second, a company can not dictate any medical procedures as it is only the domain of the doctor to actually carry this out and if they do and the doctor agrees to it, then the doctor needs to be removed from practice as this is against his oath. Finally, nobody can require you to place anything in your body without your permission. If the employees agree to this medical procedure then it is their own problem.

Now, if you are talking about chipping in the sense of having a ID chip around your neck or the like, that has been around at hundreds of companies since the 1980s. When I worked for the Air Force they could track what building I was in becasue I had to pass through card readers to get in. Today, the university I work at uses the campus IDs to track what lab I am in as well as what times I am at work because there are transponders at all doorways and they can read my ID card in my wallet.


Reed

JSwan
Mar. 2, 2006, 10:10 AM
That rings a bell, actually. I thought it was just a publicity stunt for a chip manufacturer. If I come across the press info I'll pass it along - but I seem to recall (in the instance I read about) was an officer of a corp agreed to be implanted with his company's chip to show how safe it was. But follow up revealed he never did it.

But I have nothing to back that up at all. The post just made me thing about that one item in the press (which ain't that great about fact checking so take it with a grain of salt)

Sleepy
Mar. 2, 2006, 11:02 AM
My ID badge is chipped. Old stuff. I'm talking about implanted chips. It was some high security set up and for whatever reason they didn't think iris scan or palm prints were enough. I'll have to go search where I saw this but it also made the local news here since this is a big biotech area.

And yes, RAyers, back when my division was part of the SBI and I had one of their badges, security could track you while you moved around the building. But all we do is govern building access.

Edited to add this link. Didn't really require much of a search. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48760

Huntertwo
Mar. 2, 2006, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Sleepy:
fwiw, there is already one company that is micro-chipping its employees. Would I work for someone like that? Not in this lifetime!

Sleepy, I saw that. It was totally voluntary for the employees who constantly lost their badges. This was different from the link you post. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

RAyers
Mar. 2, 2006, 01:37 PM
I read the article and it is interesting. It also proves my point. With only 2 employees there are already concerns about how the chip can be foiled, duplicated, or other wise thwarted. And this is only with 2 people. The animal systems are even worse, although I am sure the people who run thos prgrams will not say so becasue their paychecks rest on the perceived success.

Here is the FDA standards for microchips:

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/ode/guidance/1541.html

Look at the health risks. Just this will make you slap anybody who suggests you get a chip.

Here is the actual listing for the VeriChip mentioned in the article:

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/searc....cfm?db=LST&ID=84215 (http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/search/search.cfm?db=LST&ID=84215)

The listed "owner" of this technology is Digital Angel. Currently this device is only allowed to send preprogrammed information and is not capable of sensory functions (e.g. temperature).

Reed

MSP
Mar. 2, 2006, 02:11 PM
http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/about/pdf/NAIS_Draf..._Standards_42505.pdf (http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/about/pdf/NAIS_Draft_Program_Standards_42505.pdf)

I must say I feel like I have fallen asleep and woke up to a night mare. I read the above document at the NAIS site and it sounds fairly reasonable. But the hair is standing up on the back of my neck. This stinks of a sneaky underhanded Government maneuver. I do not trust my government to handle this with out chipping away at my freedom. I get the feeling that the Government is in a hurry to get this off the ground but they either don’t have a complete plan or they are hiding their complete plan from us.

This is about two things; pandemic control and terrorist control. Unfortunately we may end up being the ones controlled. I really have no problem with the Draft listed above but I really don’t think that is what they will implement. Ever since 9/11/01 our rights have been chipped away by homeland security and I just have a bad feeling this is just another step. Before it is over we will need protection from our own government.

A question for those of you in Texas; did you vote or have a say in this Bill?

Those of you that say farmers have been on board with this for some time; not in MS. There is a voluntary premise registration form and they appear to be targeting beef only, using RFID ear tags. My friends that have a chicken farm contracted with Tyson have not registered and have no plans to until they are forced.

I fear the states that are jumping on board aggressively with fees and fines are greedy.

I believe the mild document that is displayed for the general public, is to ease any worries and make implementation smooth and get more people to comply. Once registered you are in their database and on their list. This is not about micro chipping this is about your rights.

Is their any organized lobby groups fighting this?

Someone made a remark about the NRA; if NRA was involved this crap wouldn’t be happening.

JSwan
Mar. 2, 2006, 02:12 PM
MSP - to my knowledge, in Virginia, the legislature was not apprised nor consulted about NAIS. The USDA worked with the state ag agencies. Having said that - there had to have been some sort of consultation at some level - but not the General Assembly. As a matter of fact, an Avian Flu type Bill which was similar to NAIS was roundly thrashed and killed in the GA this session.

RAYers - I think you're kind of straying from the topic, as well as preaching to the choir.

Whether the chips work, don't work, the gov't can't do it's job, it's a stupid plan, etc. really doesn't matter. NAIS is in the process of being implemented to some extent.

Whether the USDA can accomplish its stated goal or not - they are still requiring that individual citizens submit to the requirements; eventually under penalty of law. Whether the laws can be enforced is irrelevant.

There are a lot of people in the US that think NAIS is a violation of rights guaranteed in the Constitution, as well as a direct threat to their livelihood. Those are legitimate concerns that have been ignored by the USDA.

We can argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin till we're blue in the face - but it does nothing to resolve the real constitutional and economic ramficiations of NAIS. Since NAIS is being implemented - those concerns have become more frenzied and vociferous. Because the feds are bulldozing them, and the general public isn't aware/doesn't care because they it does not directly affect their daily lives. Or so they think.

Focusing on the end result (confirming that the feds are pretty inept) or giving us a primer in RFID - distracts from the core issues surrounding NAIS.

Such as:

Can the executive branch/federal government require citizens to submit detailed information to a private 3rd party which will be maintained in that party's database and shared.

Are there legal and/or national security protections in place to ensure the illegally obtained (according to some legal pundits)data does not fall into the wrong hands.

Are the interests of the American people great enough to overcome the guaranteed right of religious communities to practice their faith without government intrusion.

Will NAIS accomplish its stated function (identify origins of a contagion in livestock)

Has the USDA ascertained the impact on farmers, niche markets, and determined the economic impact of NAIS.


Opponents believe the answers to these questions is - No.

Yet the USDA continues to provide grants to states to implement portions of NAIS.

If you are a horse owner, you will be affected by NAIS in one form or the other at some point in time. That is simply a fact unless, for some reason, the USDA completely scraps NAIS. Which does not appear to be their intention.

The same goes for small farmers - which the USDA is supposed to be helping.

Perhaps from your perspective, you're looking at the scientific realities and saying - no way - the feds can't possibly succeed and this plan is doomed to fail. I agree.

But until the USDA agrees and round files NAIS the legal and economic problems are here. Now.

Calvincrowe
Mar. 2, 2006, 02:24 PM
J Swan, DJ, RAyers et al:

I have followed this thread with interest and despite the side-trips to conspiracyland and technologyville, I agree that this is a serious issue that has been under-reported and largely ignored by horse/livestock owners in general.

I think it is time for lawyers to become interested or involved in the process. Clearly the current administration is not concerned with the Constitutionality of many of their actions, and this just falls under that as well. Can the ACLU get on board? Can we have a simple explanation for the average, short-attention span, super-busy horse people out there of this complex issue?

Each state is approaching this differently, it seems, with a common goal of animal identification for the purposes of disease control and tracking. How it happens (chips/numbers/etc.) and how much it will cost are the big concerns I have. I am not much of a "big brother, black helicopter, commie under the rock" kind of person, so I am far more concerned about timelines and implications/applications.

Is there one clearing house of info on this subject?

MSP
Mar. 2, 2006, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Calvincrowe:
J Swan, DJ, RAyers et al:

I have followed this thread with interest and despite the side-trips to conspiracyland and technologyville, I agree that this is a serious issue that has been under-reported and largely ignored by horse/livestock owners in general.

I think it is time for lawyers to become interested or involved in the process. Clearly the current administration is not concerned with the Constitutionality of many of their actions, and this just falls under that as well. Can the ACLU get on board? Can we have a simple explanation for the average, short-attention span, super-busy horse people out there of this complex issue?

Each state is approaching this differently, it seems, with a common goal of animal identification for the purposes of disease control and tracking. How it happens (chips/numbers/etc.) and how much it will cost are the big concerns I have. I am not much of a "big brother, black helicopter, commie under the rock" kind of person, so I am far more concerned about timelines and implications/applications.

Is there one clearing house of info on this subject?

The ACLU? Are you kidding, that would be a good way to repel all farmers in the Bible belt including me. The ACLU is right up there with PETA in my book. No Thankyou!

MSP
Mar. 2, 2006, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by J Swan:
MSP - to my knowledge, in Virginia, the legislature was not apprised nor consulted about NAIS. The USDA worked with the state ag agencies. Having said that - there had to have been some sort of consultation at some level - but not the General Assembly. As a matter of fact, an Avian Flu type Bill which was similar to NAIS was roundly thrashed and killed in the GA this session.



I do not have a good grasp on how they can do this so quietly with out so much as informing the general public but I am going to ask an attorney I know from Reston, VA. Maybe she can shed some light on this.

Is there really no lobby groups formed yet?

daisy
Mar. 2, 2006, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by MSP:
The ACLU? Are you kidding, that would be a good way to repel all farmers in the Bible belt including me. The ACLU is right up there with PETA in my book. No Thankyou!


Quite a reaction to the ACLU http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif.

I'm not particularly fond when the ACLU takes up the cause of Neo Nazi's rights. I'm no fan of religious zealots. But if you believe in the laws of the land, everyone has rights. No cherry picking on who gets rights and who doesn't.

FWIW recent ACLU involvement in religious liberty cases include:

September 20, 2005: ACLU of New Jersey joins lawsuit supporting second-grader's right to sing "Awesome God" at a talent show.

August 4, 2005: ACLU helps free a New Mexico street preacher from prison.

May 25, 2005: ACLU sues Wisconsin prison on behalf of a Muslim woman who was forced to remove her headscarf in front of male guards and prisoners.

February 2005: ACLU of Pennsylvania successfully defends the right of an African American Evangelical church to occupy a church building purchased in a predominantly white parish.

December 22, 2004: ACLU of New Jersey successfully defends right of religious expression by jurors.

November 20, 2004: ACLU of Nevada supports free speech rights of evangelists to preach on the sidewalks of the strip in Las Vegas.

November 9, 2004: ACLU of Nevada defends a Mormon student who was suspended after wearing a T-shirt with a religious message to school

Sannois
Mar. 2, 2006, 03:05 PM
Someone made a remark about the NRA; if NRA was involved this crap wouldn’t be happening.
Exactly MSP!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

MSP
Mar. 2, 2006, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by daisy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MSP:
The ACLU? Are you kidding, that would be a good way to repel all farmers in the Bible belt including me. The ACLU is right up there with PETA in my book. No Thankyou!


Quite a reaction to the ACLU http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif.

I'm not particularly fond when the ACLU takes up the cause of Neo Nazi's rights. I'm no fan of religious zealots. But if you believe in the laws of the land, everyone has rights. No cherry picking on who gets rights and who doesn't.

FWIW recent ACLU involvement in religious liberty cases include:

September 20, 2005: ACLU of New Jersey joins lawsuit supporting second-grader's right to sing "Awesome God" at a talent show.

August 4, 2005: ACLU helps free a New Mexico street preacher from prison.

May 25, 2005: ACLU sues Wisconsin prison on behalf of a Muslim woman who was forced to remove her headscarf in front of male guards and prisoners.

February 2005: ACLU of Pennsylvania successfully defends the right of an African American Evangelical church to occupy a church building purchased in a predominantly white parish.

December 22, 2004: ACLU of New Jersey successfully defends right of religious expression by jurors.

November 20, 2004: ACLU of Nevada supports free speech rights of evangelists to preach on the sidewalks of the strip in Las Vegas.

November 9, 2004: ACLU of Nevada defends a Mormon student who was suspended after wearing a T-shirt with a religious message to school </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The ACLU is perceived by conservatives to be way left and also tends to attack religion, hence, the problem with the Bible belt. I also recall something about defending pedophiles; NAMBLA ring a bell. Sorry, you listed nice fluffy things the ACLU has done but I think a group that is concerned with this issue only or leaning more the right would be a better fit.

KimPeterson
Mar. 2, 2006, 03:44 PM
If they where going to try and make me call someone every time I moved a horse to the vet or a show it would be crazy not to mention how much this will cost tax payers to have people man the offices that will log the horse/livestock movements. CRAZY. Maybe we should buy farms in Canada and Mexico.

JSwan
Mar. 2, 2006, 03:50 PM
Hey folks - don't let this subject stray from horses or it will get shut down. Which will do none of us any good.

I believe there is some agriculture type group that has been formed in the expectation that litigation will ensue; however, I don't know if it is reputable or not. I'd be wary if anyone asks for money or anything unless you vet them.

Defintely check with the attorney friend to double check what I posted. I have no direct knowledge nor did I personally witness anything. My information is second hand - and therefore unreliable to be honest.

If nothing else, I hope people reading this thread are interested enough in exploring further; and make an informed decision as to whether to support NAIS or not.

RAyers
Mar. 2, 2006, 03:57 PM
While I may have posted things that are tangential to the topic you are now educated enough to begin to break down the arguments of those who want NAIS to come into existence. It is not enough to argue the technology, nor is it enough to argue constitutionallity.

In any war you find the weak front (e.g. the technology) and use that as a wedge to destroy the opposing force (NAIS). If, when you argue the constitutional aspect of the proposed legislation, the opposing party tries to point out the technology, you can now show how misinformed they are or even expose outright lies which then imply they are lying about other things.

My goal was to only educate you about the technology so now you can use that as additional ammunition against this legislation.

Reed

JSwan
Mar. 2, 2006, 04:41 PM
Rayers - you've missed your calling. Wish you had been on that equine advisory council - instead of worrying about NAIS, we could be arguing about rollkur and wormer overdoses!

I now return to my mother's basement, where I will continue my quest to tell the world about the Men in Black. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RainDancer
Mar. 2, 2006, 05:05 PM
I just read through this entire thread in one sitting. WOW. Anyway, I read the USDA site on this last night. There are several points that are definately disturbing.
1. USDA Inspectors can enter your premises at any time without a search warant.
2. Contagious diseases to be tracked...West Nile Virus... WTF? It isn't contagious.
3. No where does it mention small farmers, backyard owners, etc. It does mention race horses. So no concideration given to the "little people."

There is much more obviously. If any state allows the first part to get in, the other parts WILL follow. It stops at the door. Don't let it open people. I don't totally have an issue with the microchipping. My problem is with the rest of it. But you let it pass on the first, the rest will be in the door.

KEEP THE DOOR CLOSED AND LOCKED!!!!

Also want to add, is there a nat'l petition to sign? The petition on here was only for Texas residents. One needs to be had for every single Senator, Rep., the White House, all of them. They need to hear the voice of Americans for once.

Sannois
Mar. 2, 2006, 06:16 PM
Well just to tone this down a bit, Maybe one of you heard on the news in the past few weeks. A couple had their wrists microchipped so that they can enter their houses, cars, and computers. by passing their wrists over a sensor. I dont know if this was in conjunction with an employer who was going to try and have employees micro chipped, It was on the national news. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

mairzeadoats
Mar. 2, 2006, 06:28 PM
Is there really no lobby groups formed yet?

Yes, there are. Somewhere in this article it mentions one:

http://www.goatsource.com/Article%20of%20the%20Month.htm

And here is another group opposed to it:
http://www.poultrypress.com/hobby/

Sabina
Mar. 2, 2006, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Sannois:
Well just to tone this down a bit, Maybe one of you heard on the news in the past few weeks. A couple had their wrists microchipped so that they can enter their houses, cars, and computers. by passing their wrists over a sensor. I dont know if this was in conjunction with an employer who was going to try and have employees micro chipped, It was on the national news.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

<span class="ev_code_RED"> Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!!</span>

Kenike
Mar. 2, 2006, 08:04 PM
Okay, this got me thinking (since my in-laws are farm owners and have our horses on said farm in Texas), so I asked my dad-in-law about it (he's a Bosque County Sherrif's Deputy, I figured he could dig up the dirt easier than the average joe). He shed a (very tiny) light on the subject. Here's his response...he's a man of few words:

D..the premises registration is mandated by federal law...the states can develope their own rules...but it will be mandatory by 2008...hope all is well...we would like to see some pictures of you as you grow that GRAND baby...Paw

I wrote back asking about the RFID chips and will give the update when he gets back with me. Oh, and forgive him, he's awfully excited about becoming a grandpa http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

philosoraptor
Mar. 2, 2006, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by LLDM:
Pardon my bluntness, but SO WHAT?


Tell the amish farmer when he has to choose between his values and the fed mandated microchip of every animal on his farm.

Tell the small family farmer who isn't wealthy he can't buy his kids clothes or pay the power bill this month because of the expense of chipping his entire farm.

Tell the train riding stable who rents out horses to cut back on their horse's feed to pay the extra hours of labor to track and file a government report every time one of their horses crosses a property line.

Tell the PET owner they now have to register their kid's 4H project.

Tell the patriotic American they now have to report to Big Brother every time they go *anywhere* with any livestock animal they own (even if the animal isn't a "meat" animal).

Remember there are no exceptions or exemptions. There are no grants to help poor people with animals afford it.


When the nuero form of EHV-1 hits your barn and kills your horses because there was not a good enough way to track it, you might just change your mind!

Fact: The NAIS database will not be public. You will not be able to look up the address of the show you want to take Seabiscuit to. You will not know the barn you bought Mr Ed from is "clean". They're collecting information for THEM to use, not for us.

Fact: EHV1 is carried by an exposed horse the rest of his life and may be shed at any point later on when he's stressed enough. NAIS also does not track every horse ever exposed to EHV1. You could buy a "healthy" horse and have him start shedding the virus next year... and suddenly your closed herd is sick. NAIS has nothing at all to do with protecting recreational horse owners.

The NAIS is a concotion created to protect the export values of our beef and other animal products. It's to ensure the safety of meat destined for human consumption. They are not looking out, budgeting manpower, or frankly caring if someone's pet got strangles last summer.


Or when your horse is stolen, you might really appreciate a way to track him and positively identify him for his return to you.

Shouldn't *I* as a horse owner decide how or if I want to permanently identify my horse? Why is it the federal government's job to decide this for me? Shouldn't owners get an exemption if the horse is already tattood ?


There are many, many positive benefits to horse owners available based on this program and - IMO - the benefits outweigh the PITA factor.

Stop and think about this for a moment. Let's say you trail ride off your property a few times a week. Not only would you have to chip your horse, register your home with the fed government... but EVERY time you leave your home, you'd have to file a report with the Federal governmetn or face steep fines or worse. You'd be spending more time filling out paperwork than riding!

Ok, you still don't believe me. Try this... try calling your area vets and seeing (1) IF they chip and (2) how much it costs. Then decide if it's fair to make it a crime.

Bottom line is the NAIS won't stop bad infections from spreading. The best way to stop germs in the meat industry is to stop raising animals in filth, crammed shoulder to shoulder in confinement, pumped fill of antibiotcis they don't need, raised in numbers of thousands or 10's of thousands, and then slaughtered and inspected at superhigh speed.

The NAIS also doesn't do a darn thing about the real vectors of many of these illnesses: it doesn't track people going farm to farm and it definitely doesn't track wild animals or insects. The NAIS simply doesn't work.

MistyBlue
Mar. 2, 2006, 09:08 PM
Well just to tone this down a bit, Maybe one of you heard on the news in the past few weeks. A couple had their wrists microchipped so that they can enter their houses, cars, and computers. by passing their wrists over a sensor. I dont know if this was in conjunction with an employer who was going to try and have employees micro chipped, It was on the national news.
Well, I have to admit that's a tad creepy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
But I do have fingerprint access to both my house and to a safe in my house.

*Y*
Mar. 2, 2006, 09:54 PM
I went to an ag meeting where they were having a talk on the HB1361 and where people could register their premises.
Oh, I wanted to puke. They had the poor Ag extention guy do the informing. No one from TAHC had enough guts to be there to tell people. They are starting to back peddle now, telling people they only have to tag the ones they sell with an EDI tag (not an RDIF) and they only need to go call when changing premises. They aren't sure what they are going to do about horses, and shows and trail rides. He was saying everything was tentative, nothing was written in stone. When question and comment time came people were fired up (probabley didn't help that I gave them the flyer and stuff as they walked in the door). I asked about how they wanted people to line up and sign up and how since nothing is written in stone, the TAHC could change anything they wanted. Look how things had already changed in the week and a half that I have known about it. But that it wouldn't matter because the people had already signed so the government would know where to find them. It was brought up by one of the spectators that California and Arizona had told the Federal Government no they wouldn't do it already. Of course we don"t hear that. (I was in the back yelling Texas should have been the first to say NO!) Someone asked how to make this go away the poor guy was like contact the TAHC and of course then I raised my hand and stood and told everyone That they would have to write their rep., senators, and congress men. That the legislators had given the TAHC free rein with their animals and now this would have to be repealed!!!! I also told them the old phrase Of he that controls the food of the Nation controls the Nation and HB 1361 gave our Government just that. The TAHC doesn't have to listen to anything people tell them. People brought up how they couldn't even keep up the coggins for horses, or the scabbies (?) on goats how where they going to do this. It was also brought out during this period that now the hay growers are now going to be included in keeping track of their hay sales, (the new act they made to keep track of where cunsumable food has to have records from beginning to end of whoever touchs it). I wanted to get more info. but the guy stormed out before the end of the meeting. Several people stormed out before the end, and a lot more had red faces when they left they were so mad!!!! There were other things brought up at the meeting and now I can't remember them all (I should have taken notes). I do rememeber a few questions where asked and the guy just ignored them and went to the next one, he also answered several questions with not now (which I of course yelled Yet at). So score 2 for the good guys now!!!

Someone asked in an earlier post if people here in Texas got to vote on this, No, we didn't. It was scheduled for a public hearing and the public hearing was held on the same day. No one knew about it to protest it. Everything has been done under the radar so to speak and now that they have been caught they are back pedding and sugar coating it until they have everyone lined up, then they can go with their original plan.

Y

DJ
Mar. 2, 2006, 11:27 PM
Reed: and all, I have been out today reading some of the websites that Reed sent us to. The one that I started had 23 pages of information. I am still working through it. But it is interesting. You said that these RFID tags could only hold a 15 digit number, but the article talks about a lot more bits than that. That is all I have so far. Life interrupts.

If the signal can be read by a cell phone tower, that can transmit the information to a satellite and then you can lock down a location within a few miles.

But I do have to agree with JSwan, the capabilities of the technology may be irrelevant to some degree for two reasons. 1) the technology is going to develop if there is a need. It may not be microchips perse, but something will be developed to enforce the law. 2) if there is a law, it will be enforced, it may be selectively enforced, but someone is going to have this enforced upon them. I am not personally comfortable to taking the Zebra type approach to survival. (ie if enough of us cause enough confusion, they cant catch all of us at once) Not while I still have legal options open to me. I am not standing against this just for me and my children but also you and your children.

People died for this brief moment in history that is human freedom. It is not always perfect, but it beats all other comers. Don't let it be ripped away from us for the sake of convience or so called "safety".

I also wanted to add: this is no time to be partisian. This is a problem for all Americans. Strange political times make for strange bedfellows, so to speak. I don't care who is fighting by my side on this as long as they are sincerely against it.

Hazelnut
Mar. 3, 2006, 04:14 AM
Well, could you use the data collected by this microchipping and tracking to lobby for equine/equine owner related needs and events? Texas will sure know how strong their equine owning population is and what they contribute to the economy at all levels...just a thought.

caballus
Mar. 3, 2006, 06:17 AM
Read some of the headlines here:
CONGRESS STRIPS STATES RIGHTS
USDA APPROVES DOWNER COWS
USDA FALSIFIES DATA
MICROCHIP DOGS & CATS
USDA RELEASE 350,000 FARMER'S SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS!

Read more:

http://nonais.org/

caballus
Mar. 3, 2006, 06:32 AM
Another site with info:
http://nonais.org/wp-content/techdocs/4HAndNAIS.doc

AND ... ya gotta read this:

The USDA Called ... (http://nonais.org/index.php/2006/02/01/the-usda-called/)

Think the government isn't playing Big Brother now? Think again.

Huntertwo
Mar. 3, 2006, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by MSP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daisy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MSP:
The ACLU? Are you kidding, that would be a good way to repel all farmers in the Bible belt including me. The ACLU is right up there with PETA in my book. No Thankyou!


Quite a reaction to the ACLU http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif.

I'm not particularly fond when the ACLU takes up the cause of Neo Nazi's rights. I'm no fan of religious zealots. But if you believe in the laws of the land, everyone has rights. No cherry picking on who gets rights and who doesn't.

FWIW recent ACLU involvement in religious liberty cases include:

September 20, 2005: ACLU of New Jersey joins lawsuit supporting second-grader's right to sing "Awesome God" at a talent show.

August 4, 2005: ACLU helps free a New Mexico street preacher from prison.

May 25, 2005: ACLU sues Wisconsin prison on behalf of a Muslim woman who was forced to remove her headscarf in front of male guards and prisoners.

February 2005: ACLU of Pennsylvania successfully defends the right of an African American Evangelical church to occupy a church building purchased in a predominantly white parish.

December 22, 2004: ACLU of New Jersey successfully defends right of religious expression by jurors.

November 20, 2004: ACLU of Nevada supports free speech rights of evangelists to preach on the sidewalks of the strip in Las Vegas.

November 9, 2004: ACLU of Nevada defends a Mormon student who was suspended after wearing a T-shirt with a religious message to school </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The ACLU is perceived by conservatives to be way left and also tends to attack religion, hence, the problem with the Bible belt. I also recall something about defending pedophiles; NAMBLA ring a bell. Sorry, you listed nice fluffy things the ACLU has done but I think a group that is concerned with this issue only or leaning more the right would be a better fit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

THANK YOU MSP: The ACLU wants to take away everything "American".

No Nativity scenes
No Christmas concerts in schools
No prayer in schools
Pretty soon the Pledge of Alligence.

And yes, they were defending the pedophile organization NAMBLA, an organization that *fixes* up grown men with young boys.

The ACLU is even against the child protection bill "Jessica's Law".

Sorry folks, but the ACLU is as Anti-American as it gets.

philosoraptor
Mar. 3, 2006, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by Hazelnut:
Well, could you use the data collected by this microchipping and tracking to lobby for equine/equine owner related needs and events? Texas will sure know how strong their equine owning population is and what they contribute to the economy at all levels...just a thought.

Texas lawmakers may also see ways to tap into the revenue. Dont forget horses are assets. They could add an annual tax to farm "assets" and they can easily track sales of the horse to ensure they get sales tax every time. Fed government can also track sales and you'd better be keeping reciepts and accounting for any profits made on a horse's sale. Profits from sales of any sort of asset must be declared on your annual taxes.

What's to prevent "accidents", hackers, or a dishonest database contractor from letting this private information out? Would you feel just as good RFID tagging and reporting every object inside your home?

JSwan
Mar. 3, 2006, 07:24 AM
For those of you who believe that NAIS will help you track a lost of stolen horse, or prevent disease - that is not the purpose of NAIS.

Should your horse be stolen, or lost, no horse owner will be able to find out where the horse is. Should the animal end up at some sort of point in the chain, just as an auction, or the slaughterhouse, etc - while the chip will be scanned, it is merely recorded and passed on to a database within a set period of time.

There is no "Amber Alert", no USDA inspector on the lookout for your stolen horse - and you will not be able to access the databases yourself.

By the time you find out where the horse has gone - he's long gone from that location. If it was sent the killers - he's already on some dinner plate in Japan.

This is, plain and simple - NOT a method of protecting our horses. It was never intended to, the government in not interested in it, none of that.

NAIS is no different than current systems in place to isolate disease outbreaks (scrapie, BSE, in livestock). The diseases still happen, they spread, and animals die or are euthanized (some in woodchippers but I digress). So if you are thinking that NAIS would have prevented EHV-1 deaths and so therefore you support it - nope. It wouldn't have, and it won't.

NAIS takes current disease controls to a whole new level; in which the collection of personal data on animal owners is inexplicably linked to making us have warm fuzzy feelings that Uncle Sam loves us and wants to protect us.

The info the USDA has put out is a masterful example of the ambiguous doublespeak the government is so fond of. And yes, it's largely doing an end run around state legislatures. The general public isn't aware, and even my own Congresswoman didn't know what the heck I was talking about - much less my state delegate and Senator. And my state Senator is on the Virginia AG committee in the GA.

Politics aside - I don't think this is a sexy enough matter for a group like the ACLU. Sorry. It's just not high profile enough, and doesn't affect Harry and Harriett homeowner directly.

MayS - thank you for your post. Many people are thinking "microchip/lostpet/no more disease/so it's ok" . If that was the case, I wouldn't be so totally creeped out about it.

Even my husband, who has absolutely no interest in anything relating to rights, politics, farming, privacy - read the draft strategic plan and was deeply concerned.

RAyers
Mar. 3, 2006, 07:39 AM
Reed: and all, I have been out today reading some of the websites that Reed sent us to. The one that I started had 23 pages of information. I am still working through it. But it is interesting. You said that these RFID tags could only hold a 15 digit number, but the article talks about a lot more bits than that. That is all I have so far. Life interrupts.

If the signal can be read by a cell phone tower, that can transmit the information to a satellite and then you can lock down a location within a few miles.

But I do have to agree with JSwan, the capabilities of the technology may be irrelevant to some degree for two reasons. 1) the technology is going to develop if there is a need. It may not be microchips perse, but something will be developed to enforce the law. 2) if there is a law, it will be enforced, it may be selectively enforced, but someone is going to have this enforced upon them. I am not personally comfortable to taking the Zebra type approach to survival. (ie if enough of us cause enough confusion, they cant catch all of us at once) Not while I still have legal options open to me. I am not standing against this just for me and my children but also you and your children.


DJ,

If you want to argue against this legislation you have to be prepared to not only argue legalities but the way by which this program will be carried out which includes the technology. Trust me, having been involved in the fight against several government programs, I know that by presenting obvious facts, you can begin to crack the emotional and personal perspectives of the opposition.

We drove Nike out of Colorado when they wanted to build their corporate headquarters on top of a mountain. By showing the government officials who approved the project the threat to people's health via particulates released during construction we were able to break the arguments of the corporation as to why they should be allowed to build.

I learned from the folks who shut down Rocky Flats Nuclear Weapons Plant (a friend's mom lead the charge). When you argue something based on emotion you are open to failure. When you argue based upon emotion, backed up with facts you can succeed.

Now here is a fact, yes there are chips that can hold larger amounts of information BUT if you look at the chips made for IMPLANTATION, you will see thay can only hold 15-16 binary numbers. THAT shows a WEAKNESS in the government's ability to carry out this legislation.

Example:
You,
"So, you want to be able to track individual animals on a person's property. How will this be carried out?"

Government,
"We will use AVID ID chips, and read these chip by driving by the propery."

You,
"Really!? Well, according to Texas Instruments, who makes the chips distributed by AVID, the chips only have a range of a few inches, not to mention, in a paper published by researchers at MIT in August 2005, one can not identify individual animals in a herd due to interference from other animals. Which means you will have to enter the property to carry out an investigation. Will there be warrants issued or will the enforcing agents enter the property without probable cause?"

Government,
"Well...."

You have exposed weakness in the opponent. Then you can go against them in Congress, in court, to the public, and show lies and misinformation based upon facts. This then makes people think about where else they are lying.

Reed

LLDM
Mar. 3, 2006, 07:40 AM
Okay, I am going to RANT a little.

To all you "Constitutionalists" - here's a news flash for you: Our Constitution is a Social Contract. And while it provides for certain freedoms, it is NOT a blank check. In order to maintain those freedoms, we all have responsibilities to our society under the contract. So, no, we don't all get to do whatever the heck we want. There are limitations, which are designed to protect everyone's limited freedoms, not just your personal preferences.

In the simpler words of my mother - your right to swing your arms ends at the end of your neighbor's nose.

The government is increasingly involved in all our lives because there are people who do not live up to the responsibilities of living in a free society. There are currently dozens (at least) of reasons the "powers that be" can come on to your property, even into your house, without permission or prior approval. If that is your concern, well, that is a different battle than this.

Everyone who lives in this country benefits from the protections it provides - and everyone gives up their "right to do whatever the heck they want". It is called tacit consent and in some cases, even not so tacit consent. However, it is the antidote to anarchy.

The fact that some of you think this is A) the worst case of the errosion of freedoms in this modern version of democracy OR B) Some plot to allow the government to spy on your horse OR C) will take so much of your time and money it will drive you out of horse ownership, well all I can say is HUH?

I am much more open to arguements like - the system is not likely to produce enough benefits to the horses and horse owners to justify the costs, OR it a good idea, but the implementation plan sucks. Those are practical enough for me to get my head around.

SCFarm

DJ
Mar. 3, 2006, 07:44 AM
This was copied from a horse board here in TX. If anyone wants verification from this person, I can put you in touch with the thread.


what we're facing here. (Everyone . . . roll over and play dead!)

************
Subject: The Sheep and Goat Representative on Texas Animal Health Commission!
TAHC and NAIS -

This is mainly for the goat and sheep farmers/ranchers in Texas and all others concerned about this program, that is being forced on us all.

I found out from a friend that a Dr. William F. Edminston of El Dorado, Texas who is a vet plus involved in the family's large ranch there, is
the SHEEP and GOAT Rancher's REP on the Texas Animal Health Commission.

So, I called to discuss the moved up meeting to March 23, 2006 from May 4, 2006. He was not very nice at all.

I asked why the meeting was moved up. He said: "It was moved up so we can vote the premise ID in and require all ranchers/farmers to be registered by July 1, 2006 or face fines."


I asked him if they or he were considering what the over 80 people said at the Feb. 16th meeting, the letters and emails about it, and he said NO.

He then preceded to tell me it was a law and TAHC had to do it or else. The illegal aliens and stray cows, goats, chickens over the Texas/Mexico
who can bring disease in, and was more of a problem, was a Federal Problem.

He did not want to talk with individuals and continue to Throw the Large Cattlemen Associations in my face. I do not own a cow, so what the big cow groups vote, does not matter to me,and I am not a member of, so I have no say in them.

I asked him: What was the relevant aspect of the Cattlemen Assoc. supporting this NAIS to me, a goat rancher? No reply.


I asked him how many cattle there was in Texas and How many Goats? No Reply.


He then told me he had work to do. And did not Care to talk to individual Goat and Sheep Ranchers about this and what the Commission
was going to do.

This is the Sheep and Goat Rep for us on TAHC.

If anyone would like to call him, his phone number is: 325 853-2572.

Fax Number is: (325) 853-2573.

His Email Address is: goatdock@yahoo.com

Please do call our Rep on TAHC, tell him how you all feel.



These are the kind of battles we are facing. It is a do it or else attitude here. That is not how we normally are around here. Usually TX is the less government involvement in our lives the better. What the heck is going on here? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

caballus
Mar. 3, 2006, 07:51 AM
How about that horses are not considered livestock OR agriculture (unless one is breeding)? So why would they fall under this "protective" act to begin with? They are not considered food therefore the guise that is used by the Food and Aggie as protection against disease borne through food, etc. is a lie. It *is* doublespeak. I have to pay "personal property" tax on my horses as they're considered pets or "personal property"; not livestock and not agriculture. I don't breed them so I cannot get the benefit of tax breaks through the ag. chapter. So, why include them in this big brother security act at all? It's just another way to make govt. $$ and man, there's ALOT of $$ to be made by this!

Personally, if I want to go for a trail ride I don't want to have to cowtow to anyone and have to tell the government where I'm going or why or for how long. It's none of anyone else's business! But you know what? alot of its moot, now, anyway ... the govt. has been getting information - YOUR personal information - from your feed store, your vet, your equine whatever anyway. Why does the govt. need to know how many horses you have or what you do with them or where you go with them? What business is it of anyone else's? Next thing will be mandatory surveillance cameras on farms. Those of you who haven't read George Orwell's "1984" or "Brave New World" might enjoy a good read. They were published as fiction ...

caffeinated
Mar. 3, 2006, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by Huntertwo:
THANK YOU MSP: The ACLU wants to take away everything "American".

No Nativity scenes
No Christmas concerts in schools
No prayer in schools
Pretty soon the Pledge of Alligence.

Wow... I'm not a real American? OMG.... religious expression and forced mindless mantra repeating are not what makes our country great, last I checked. And I'm pretty sure I'm as American as it gets, despite being an atheist and not having had to say the pledge after sixth grade.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled topic.

Since there seems to be some state-by-state basis to what's going on here, is there any information on other states (besides the ones mentioned in this threads) that may be picking up this issue soon?

I may have missed the news bulletin on MD, so figured I'd ask

and caballus, you said:

How about that horses are not considered livestock OR agriculture (unless one is breeding)? So why would they fall under this "protective" act to begin with?

The problem here is that we're kind of damned if we do and damned if we don't. Horses are considered livestock in the majority of the country. Part of my problem with anti-slaughter legislation is that I worry about horses as non-livestock animals.

Farmland and places to keep horses are already expensive here- if horses became 'pets,' a whole lot of nice little farms wouldn't be "farms" anymore, and then we get into "luxury items" and other taxation as well as property taxes going up, making the expenses of horse ownership extremely difficult for the majority of us (like in MD when they tried to tax associated services because horses were 'luxury items')

There's a sort of in-between here. There's a big advantage to having horses legally recognized as livestock in terms of being able to afford to keep them. But then if this NAIS thing gets off the ground, it suddenly becomes a disadvantage.

Anyway... as a government employee I'd be astounded if they could make the system workable. One of the things I've noticed here is that there's a whole lot of talk and grandiose ideas by people in charge who don't understand the technology or limitations involved. Even for simple things- like the commissioner wants a notice sent, so she writes up a word document and wants us to send it to several million people the next day. She gets all the important people involved, and it sounds like a great initiative. Except... it's impossible. Seems like NAIS is another case of that, from the sounds of things.

JSwan
Mar. 3, 2006, 10:24 AM
Clarification:

Horses are livestock regardless of their intended use. NAIS is affecting other non-food livestock such as llamas too.

Horses should remain livestock - trust me. That classification has a tremendous impact on tax law, zoning - all kinds of thing that have nothing to do with some of us consider them pets. Even if you disagree, soon it won't matter because states are moving towards microchipping ALL animals. Including pets. Even a pet hamster. Pretty stupid. Such a bill was just killed in the Virginia GA - mandatory microchipping of all pets - even pet reptiles - can you believe it?

I think "tracking" and data collection and microchips have become a very fashionable sexy thing for government. Takes the spotlight off the real problems. Like competency.

RAyers
Mar. 3, 2006, 10:29 AM
One of the things I've noticed here is that there's a whole lot of talk and grandiose ideas by people in charge who don't understand the technology or limitations involved. Even for simple things- like the commissioner wants a notice sent, so she writes up a word document and wants us to send it to several million people the next day. She gets all the important people involved, and it sounds like a great initiative. Except... it's impossible. Seems like NAIS is another case of that, from the sounds of things.

Caffeinated, my original point exactly. I have done enough government work to see the same thing you do.

Jswan,


I think "tracking" and data collection and microchips have become a very fashionable sexy thing for government. Takes the spotlight off the real problems. Like competency.

Amen.

Reed

MSP
Mar. 3, 2006, 10:30 AM
“NAIS is currently a voluntary program. To ensure the participation requirements of NAIS not only provide the results necessary to maintain the health of the national herd but also is a program that is practical for producers and all others involved in production, USDA has adopted a phased-in approach to implementation. Although the draft strategic plan references mandatory requirements in 2008 and beyond, to date no actions have been initiated by USDA to develop regulations to require participation in NAIS. APHIS will publish updates to the implementation plan as recommendations are received and evaluated by the NAIS Subcommittee and the Secretary's Advisory Committee on Foreign Animal and Poultry Diseases.”

The above is from the NAIS site http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/index.shtml .

The USDA has backed off their 2008 mandatory date. Any states that pass laws regarding NAIS are doing so on there own. And as we can see from the Texas law the motivation appears to be money.

If you live in Texas you had better be fighting this because if this law passes and you do not cooperate you will be breaking the law.

For all others, watch you states so that they do not follow suite. http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/subjects/state_tribe/index.shtml

This link is a list of states that received fund to implement the NAIS. They are not required to implement a mandatory system but as Texas as demonstrated that might not mean they will not.

The NAIS is probably not being received well by anyone except of course those that can make a profit from it. It is not too late to fight this.

RAyers
Mar. 3, 2006, 10:34 AM
MSP, we are talking about fighting it. And one of the easiest places to attack this program is in its implementation. The technology is not mature and because of that it opens HUGE holes in the legal and economic aspects. See my last 2 posts here.

If the technology won't work it means increased court time getting warrants and increased taxpayer expense for enforcement. It means that you can fight this by getting people who don't care about horses involved. Why? Because you can show that since the higher ups who administrate this program have now idea how to work with the technology they will clog courts with lawsuits and how taxes will have to be increased to pay for people and hours to accomplish enforcement.

You don't even have to get in to constitutional aspects (which is very hard to argue unless you get to the US Supreme Court).

Reed

JSwan
Mar. 3, 2006, 11:41 AM
Also keep an eye on what your state is doing about pets, too. I'm sorry to keep harping on about Virginia, but the GA just passed HB339. Creates a database of all dog owners and requires that database be available to the general public.

No need for a microchip or fancy technology. Vets are required to report certain information about you and your dog to the county treasurer when your dog gets its rabies shot.

Sounds really benign until some nut case or group decides that your dogs, or what you do with them, needs to be eliminated. Public health and safety should never be linked to revenue generation. Unfortunately, the Virginia General Assembly disagrees.

Very very fashionable, all these databases. Pretty pie charts. Paradigms. Consultants. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

MSP
Mar. 3, 2006, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by RAyers:
MSP, we are talking about fighting it. And one of the easiest places to attack this program is in its implementation. The technology is not mature and because of that it opens HUGE holes in the legal and economic aspects. See my last 2 posts here.

If the technology won't work it means increased court time getting warrants and increased taxpayer expense for enforcement. It means that you can fight this by getting people who don't care about horses involved. Why? Because you can show that since the higher ups who administrate this program have now idea how to work with the technology they will clog courts with lawsuits and how taxes will have to be increased to pay for people and hours to accomplish enforcement.

You don't even have to get in to constitutional aspects (which is very hard to argue unless you get to the US Supreme Court).

Reed

Say they decide this technology won't work. Do you really think that is enough to stop the government from pursuing it anyways? Mean while the laws have already been passed and it is much harder to change than to prevent.

The way I see it, it is a political issue, we need to block them from passing laws. That means getting to the folks that are doing the voting.

The states don't have to go high tech to make participation a law and the system doesn’t have to work for them to start to levee fees and fines on the fine citizens of the state.

All that aside I posted what I did because of a few post that have been made suggesting that this is all a done deal and nothing can be done to stop it.

Auventera Two
Mar. 3, 2006, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Huntertwo:

THANK YOU MSP: The ACLU wants to take away everything "American".

No Nativity scenes
No Christmas concerts in schools
No prayer in schools
Pretty soon the Pledge of Alligence.

Completely off topic but this really bugs the piss out of me and have to say something - nativity scenes, christmas concerts and prayer do not equal "American." They equal christianity. And those are two completely different criteria which cannot be bundled together. Now of course the right to engage in christmas concerts, to pray, and to display nativity scenes is absolutely American.

But anyway, I am completely opposed to the idea of forced chipping. I think it is a violation of our rights as citizens, and an abomination to the very values that this country operates by.

mairzeadoats
Mar. 3, 2006, 06:02 PM
Caballus,
Thank you for the links!

Fortunately for me, I hang up on phone surveyers and other telemarketers and throw out junk mail automatically. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Guess it's time to start buying all animal supplies cash and from a few towns away. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

mairzeadoats
Mar. 3, 2006, 06:40 PM
One thing to do is get people who *don't* have any animals, and therefore don't care, to realize what this program would do to the cost of food. When they realize they'll be paying for this boondoggle -- and have an idea how much they'll be paying -- they won't be happy.

LLDM, the program will *not* protect animals (or humans) from disease. They can track diseases and quarantine/euthanize now. It won't stop diseases from spreading through wild herds and flocks and infecting domesticated ones.

It won't even make the food supply safer -- it will *only* enable BIG AGRIBIZ to *claim* that our food is the safest in the world.

It will *not* protect your animals from thieves or disasters. They aren't going to use the system to track them down if they're stolen or lost in a storm.

It will *not* protect the food supply from terrorist attack. In fact, it may well make it more vulnerable in some ways to disruption.

The *only* beneficiaries of this program are government bureaucrats, BIG AGRIBIZ, and the technology companies.

Kenike
Mar. 3, 2006, 07:10 PM
here's my dad-in-law's response to the question about the RFID tags:

The fools know what we have to do...they simply haven't figured out how we'll do it...only 7000 of 200,000 farms and ranches have voluntarily registered...they do not know how we will trace the individual animals...Paw


Sounds pretty cut-and-dry to me (but then, I'm able to interpret his language LOL)...looks like we livestock owners are in for some seriously dire and big changes. Dad-in-law is NOT happy about this...I've asked him to keep us updated.

Huntertwo
Mar. 3, 2006, 07:25 PM
OWNERS MUST REPORT within 24 hrs every sale or purchase of any animal, every death or slaughter, every missing animal, every placement or loss of an ID tag and every time an animal leaves or returns to the owner’s property. [This includes paperwork because of vet trips, trail rides, loose goats, dead chickens due to chicken hawks or raccoons.]


Okay, here is the part I can't fathom. Every chicken, cow and pig must be chipped? Then reported when slaughtered?

Do you realize on any given day how many *food* animals are slaughtered in the U.S.? Millions?

There is no way a farmer could possibly fill out paperwork for a few thousand chickens he sends to slaughter on a daily basis.

I myself, go on trail rides several times a week off property...Just don't see how this could possibly be implemented.

RainDancer
Mar. 3, 2006, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Huntertwo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">OWNERS MUST REPORT within 24 hrs every sale or purchase of any animal, every death or slaughter, every missing animal, every placement or loss of an ID tag and every time an animal leaves or returns to the owner’s property. [This includes paperwork because of vet trips, trail rides, loose goats, dead chickens due to chicken hawks or raccoons.]


Okay, here is the part I can't fathom. Every chicken, cow and pig must be chipped? Then reported when slaughtered?

Do you realize on any given day how many *food* animals are slaughtered in the U.S.? Millions?

There is no way a farmer could possibly fill out paperwork for a few thousand chickens he sends to slaughter on a daily basis.

I myself, go on trail rides several times a week off property...Just don't see how this could possibly be implemented. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If, and I mean IF, this ever actually becomes law, clog them with paperwork. I work for State Government and I am well addressed on what happens when paperwork becomes too much. Things get changed real quick to make it less burdonsome. Government has a really bad habit of saying "Hey this is a great idea. Let's put it into action" without ever fully researching or thinking it through. Then when things start to fall apart, they change things pretty quick. Especially if it costs a LOT of money. If we are forced to comply with this ludricous act then nail them where it hurts the most. Take your horse for a walk across the street. But remember to report it first. Come right back. Report it again. Keep doing it. A 2 minute walk can ultimately cost so much that they will be forced to rethink their position.They can't tell you that you can't walk your horse.

I am hoping that some of the organizations will band together for some type of class action lawsuit that will tie this thing up in the courts for years to come. I don't know how this will work but it sure sounds good.

fourhorses
Mar. 4, 2006, 08:28 AM
I realize this post is an older one, but wanted to bump it because I feel this is a very important issue that shouldn't be ignored.
Anyone wanting more information can link on the horse forum for Illinois -- they're already starting to talk about NAIS implementation in our state; the Illinois Horse Council is, so far, in support of the NAIS.

http://www.illinoishorse.com

I don't think argueing the merits of the technology or safety to our animals is really the issue; rather it's an issue of taxation w/o representation and what constitues our rights as citizens -- ie. the ablility to enter/seize our property without due process/justification. I also am more concerned about how this will affect my children and grandchilren and the generations to come. We should be thinking about future generations here! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif And we should be concerned with protecting the rights of all citizens as well as how it will affect us as individuals.

I too don't beleive the NAIS will do anything to better our safety or cut down on "backyard breeders". I do believe that it is an excellent program to enforce more taxation and finesprimarily upon middle/working class animal owners/small scale farmers! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I also believe that it is yet another way for our government to justify acting in a more and more police state way, obtaining compliance through vague promises of safety to an uninformed public! It's also a great way for large corporations to ensure that they are the only ones allowed to raise livestock http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Here's a good example of how these things pass through (on a very small scale mind you, but I think it serves to create the picture): My county passed an ordinance last year at a county board meeting (where this topic was only mentioned long enough to pass, and which the citizens of my county were by and large not informed of) that all dogs and cats MUST be registered and microchipped through cooperation with area vets and the Humane Society, above and beyond their yearly rabies tagging; anyone found in non-compliance (which is almost everyone as the notification ran in a 1 paragraph entry in the local paper, on page 5) will be facing a penalty plus will pay to have their animals automatically chipped and registered along with a $20/animal yearly registration fee that is also part of the ordinance compliance; either that or their animals can be confiscated and they could be fined for willfull non-compliance(this will not work except for people who get nabbed taking their pets to the vet or if they call the animal shelter and report their pet missing -- folks who do neither wouldn't be affected by this unless someone turns them in and then they'll just dump their animals rather than pay for them -- at least that's my conjecture). The main point imo is that the majority of taxpayers didn't even know about this until after it passed.

People have argued that this has to do with puppies and kitties, not horses, so why am I b$%ch*&g? Hmm, this seems like the same arguement in reverse with the NAIS proposal, this has to do with "livestock" so why get involved. Maybe I've been watching to many x-Files reruns, but maybe not -- does anyone else see a parallel?

TripleRipple
Mar. 4, 2006, 01:34 PM
Latest I can find from Texas:

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/02/17tags.html

Outpouring of opposition came from large, angry crowd
By Claire Osborn

AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF

Friday, February 17, 2006

They yelled, they cursed and they cried, and in the end, the people who testified Thursday persuaded state commission members to delay a requirement that livestock owners register their animals with the government.

The Texas Animal Health Commission, acting on a bill passed by the Legislature, was going to require livestock owners to register their "premises," a rule that would include listing the kinds of animals they have, though not the number.

The proposal is part of the U.S. Department of Agriculture's plan to tag animals so they can be tracked to prevent the rapid spread of disease. The plan is called the National Animal Identification System.

The commission was going to require livestock owners to pay a $20 registration fee every two years beginning July 1, with penalties including a fine up to $1,000 for noncompliance. People who own only one animal — including a chicken, a horse, a cow, a goat or a pig — would be required to register.

The commission delayed the decision until its next meeting May 4. "I'll tell you this; I'm really not for this thing," said Jerry Windham, a member of the commission. "I just want to see us delay this decision. . . . I may get fired from this job for saying this," he said.

Dozens of people, including Nancy Falster of Wood County, who raises miniature Herefords, spoke to the commission Thursday at a public hearing that lasted about four hours.

Falster, who dressed in prison stripes to protest the plan, said registration would violate her private property rights. "I will not comply," she said.

A few representatives of industry groups, including the Texas Farm Bureau, testified they supported the registration.

Many people said the registration fee would be an unfair tax. They worried that the tax would go up and put small livestock owners out of business.

"Texas does not need Big Brother watching over us; this is America, not Soviet Russia," said Kim Alexander, a Garfield farmer. He added that he just wanted to be left alone to raise his own animals.

Chicken owner John Dromgoole, who owns the Natural Gardener Nursery in Austin and hosts a long-running radio show about organic gardening, yelled at commission members that they were taking away his liberty, getting a standing ovation from a few members of the audience.

People also testified that they had not been aware of the plan until recently. A spokesman for the Texas Thoroughbred Association said half his members didn't even have e-mail.

The Texas Animal Health Commission would not require people to individually tag their animals yet, said Bob Hillman, the executive director of the commission.

The tags that have been discussed include radio frequency ear tags for cattle, implants for horses and leg bands and ear notches for smaller animals.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture does not have plans yet for how different kinds of animals would be marked, Hillman said. Tagging of all livestock may not become mandatory until 2009, he said.

Hillman added that people who complained that those who owned small numbers of livestock were not responsible for the spread of animal diseases were wrong. Three of the five cases in Texas of brucellosis, a bacterial infection that cows carry, came from herds of fewer than 30 cattle, he said.

The one case of mad cow disease in Texas, which happened last year, also did not come from a large herd, Hillman said. So far people have registered 7,000 premises voluntarily out of an estimated 200,000 livestock owners in Texas, he said.

People may send their comments to the animal commission at comments@tahc.state.tx.us.
cosborn@statesman.com; 445-3871

mairzeadoats
Mar. 4, 2006, 02:39 PM
Okay, here is the part I can't fathom. Every chicken, cow and pig must be chipped? Then reported when slaughtered?

Do you realize on any given day how many *food* animals are slaughtered in the U.S.? Millions?

There is no way a farmer could possibly fill out paperwork for a few thousand chickens he sends to slaughter on a daily basis.

I myself, go on trail rides several times a week off property...Just don't see how this could possibly be implemented.

Huntertwo, factory farmers won't be required to tag their thousands of chickens. Their flocks of birds will be "lots" and given a single id #.

Along with the general insanity of this program, it very clearly is biased in favor of Big AGRIBIZ. From the perspective of Big AGRIBIZ, it will not only help their overseas marketing, but here at home it will force small farmers and those who raise a few animals to feed their own families out of business. That is why they are so supportive.

I don't doubt that the horsemeat industry is salivating over this as well. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Sannois
Mar. 4, 2006, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Huntertwo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MSP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daisy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MSP:
The ACLU? Are you kidding, that would be a good way to repel all farmers in the Bible belt including me. The ACLU is right up there with PETA in my book. No Thankyou!


Quite a reaction to the ACLU http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif.

I'm not particularly fond when the ACLU takes up the cause of Neo Nazi's rights. I'm no fan of religious zealots. But if you believe in the laws of the land, everyone has rights. No cherry picking on who gets rights and who doesn't.

FWIW recent ACLU involvement in religious liberty cases include:

September 20, 2005: ACLU of New Jersey joins lawsuit supporting second-grader's right to sing "Awesome God" at a talent show.

August 4, 2005: ACLU helps free a New Mexico street preacher from prison.

May 25, 2005: ACLU sues Wisconsin prison on behalf of a Muslim woman who was forced to remove her headscarf in front of male guards and prisoners.

February 2005: ACLU of Pennsylvania successfully defends the right of an African American Evangelical church to occupy a church building purchased in a predominantly white parish.

December 22, 2004: ACLU of New Jersey successfully defends right of religious expression by jurors.

November 20, 2004: ACLU of Nevada supports free speech rights of evangelists to preach on the sidewalks of the strip in Las Vegas.

November 9, 2004: ACLU of Nevada defends a Mormon student who was suspended after wearing a T-shirt with a religious message to school </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The ACLU is perceived by conservatives to be way left and also tends to attack religion, hence, the problem with the Bible belt. I also recall something about defending pedophiles; NAMBLA ring a bell. Sorry, you listed nice fluffy things the ACLU has done but I think a group that is concerned with this issue only or leaning more the right would be a better fit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

THANK YOU MSP: The ACLU wants to take away everything "American".

No Nativity scenes
No Christmas concerts in schools
No prayer in schools
Pretty soon the Pledge of Alligence.

And yes, they were defending the pedophile organization NAMBLA, an organization that *fixes* up grown men with young boys.

The ACLU is even against the child protection bill "Jessica's Law".

Sorry folks, but the ACLU is as Anti-American as it gets. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes Huntertwo and I wish peoplelwould see what they are doing!

RainDancer
Mar. 4, 2006, 03:25 PM
Who is the original writer of this plan? I saw it somewhere. A politician from Michigan or Minnisota I think. Can anyone here trace it back to the origin? I am thinking that that person needs a wake up call.

DJ
Mar. 4, 2006, 06:18 PM
what like at 5 am or something like that? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

That meeting in Austin is the one that woke up some of the people in TX. They were supposed to have delayed until May sometime, but they decided to move the meeting up to March 23. I think part of it is that they are counting on us not being able to activate enough people to make a difference in just a month. And they changed locations to Round Rock, which might be a little harder to get to.

So Reed, If I as a layperson start studying this and get hung up, can you walk me through that technical data?

fourhorses
Mar. 4, 2006, 06:48 PM
Here's some more interesting info. -- not quite horse-related completely but it has to do with the whole "chipping" business:
Look up REX 84 Program + Microchipping on your search engines.

Huntertwo
Mar. 4, 2006, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by mairzeadoats:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Okay, here is the part I can't fathom. Every chicken, cow and pig must be chipped? Then reported when slaughtered?

Do you realize on any given day how many *food* animals are slaughtered in the U.S.? Millions?

There is no way a farmer could possibly fill out paperwork for a few thousand chickens he sends to slaughter on a daily basis.

I myself, go on trail rides several times a week off property...Just don't see how this could possibly be implemented.

Huntertwo, factory farmers won't be required to tag their thousands of chickens. Their flocks of birds will be "lots" and given a single id #.

Along with the general insanity of this program, it very clearly is biased in favor of Big AGRIBIZ. From the perspective of Big AGRIBIZ, it will not only help their overseas marketing, but here at home it will force small farmers and those who raise a few animals to feed their own families out of business. That is why they are so supportive.

I don't doubt that the horsemeat industry is salivating over this as well. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, I guess I was having a *Duh* moment. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

DJ
Mar. 5, 2006, 01:48 PM
One thing to do is get people who *don't* have any animals, and therefore don't care, to realize what this program would do to the cost of food. When they realize they'll be paying for this boondoggle -- and have an idea how much they'll be paying -- they won't be happy.


I am in total agreement on that mairzeadoats. My hubby said that we should get the general public involved and show them how it WILL affect them. Either through admin costs being passed on or increased food costs or increased taxes. This is such an insane boondoggle that I still can hardly believe that it is happening.

So, talk to friends, neighbors and family. Tell them about it, even if you don't know everything, ask them what they know about it. Even if they are for it, at least we should be making informed consent to our losses of liberty. It goes back to some of what JSwan was saying about not being properly engaged in what our legistlation is up to.

Is it true that CA and AZ told the NAID to take a hike?

county
Mar. 5, 2006, 02:04 PM
They may not be happy but they won't do anything about it either. The people in this country coiuld in reality care less about the cost of food or oil for the big picture. Oh sure they whine and complain and then just keep buying it. They do nothing substancial to change anything and history has shown they never will.

DJ
Mar. 5, 2006, 08:42 PM
Unfortunately, county, you may be right. But I am hoping that MAYBE this time, we will stand up and actually do something. Sometimes, people do stand up. And things change.

But if we don't as a nation reject this, we have no one to blame but ourselves for what follows.

lawndart
Mar. 6, 2006, 07:42 AM
Wow, here is an eye-opener. Google your state's Farm Bureau, then do a in site search for National Animal Identification System.

Apparently, PA Farm Bureau supports NAIS http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

As long as its paid for by someone else, and doesn't affect their ability to compete with other states in sales its OK with them. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

I'm seriously disappointed. BTW, PA sent me stuff last year (spring) to register my premises. When I threw it out two times, my third letter said if you don't do this voluntarily, we have the right to come to your property, so we can do it for you! I don't have that letter anymore, so it was worded much nicer, but IMO it was a veiled threat.

I wish I had a chance to attend the NAIS seminar that they gave at the PA HOrse Expo this year. Did anyone else attend that, could you give an overview on what was said?

JSwan
Mar. 6, 2006, 07:51 AM
Farm Bureau is great - but sometimes I wonder what on earth they are thinking. In some areas they won't insure premises with hunting dogs. Uh - a great number of farmers and ranchers like to hunt with dogs - they're also family pets. If you are a member of Farm Bureau - it's really something you need to be active in. They're supposed to advocate for all farming and ranching interests - including small farms.

lawndart - Virginia also has a "veiled threat" approach to NAIS. If Average Joe Homeowner got the type of material they're sending out - he'd be harassing his reps day and night.

DJ
Mar. 6, 2006, 11:22 AM
Post subject: Just got off the phone w/Bryan Hughes office District 5 Reply with quote
They are starting the paperwork to have HB1361 repealed!!!!

What we must do is CALL Gov. Perry and ask him to put out an executive order for the TAHC to stop until the repeal hearing has been heard.

Then we need to CALL our reps., senators, and congress people and ask them to help with the repeal! The more people who call the better chance we have!!!!

Waaaahhhhhhooooooooooooo

Y

I am cross posting this from another board. Y has been busy at work at various gatherings of farmers, sharing info. It sounds like there is an effect. If the crack is opening, Texans, drive it home!

Heller69
Mar. 6, 2006, 11:26 AM
Someone mentioned the Farm Bureau. Heres a link to a posting on another board about this. go down the page away you'll see it.

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/right...-change-76108-7.html (http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/rights-as-an-animal-owner-to-change-76108-7.html)

RAyers
Mar. 6, 2006, 11:54 AM
DJ, I would be glad to help. just PT me if needed.

Reed

Sonesta
Mar. 6, 2006, 01:17 PM
I will be at that March 23 meeting in Round Rock and I WILL BE heard. Just ask anyone who knows me.

MSP
Mar. 6, 2006, 01:31 PM
Good Luck Texas!

I am searching my states 2006 bills to make sure I don't get any surprises! I suspect I will need to do this monthly. It is very educational; I found out we will be voting this year to allow horse racing in MS. And they also just made a fine of $5000 if you kill a persons animal; emotional damages. Nothing on animal ID yet but I need to search more to be sure.

I think everyone needs to search their states government sites for any animal ID bills.

*Y*
Mar. 6, 2006, 02:10 PM
Here is my letter to Gov. Perry and anyone that can please send him an email, call, or fax. Also contact your reps. and get them to back the repeal of HB 1361. If enough people stand up and holler at them they will get the picture and they will fix the big mess they have made in this state and any other!!!!



Dear Governor Rick Perry,


I am writing to you in hopes that you will issue an executive order to the Texas Animal Health Commission to postpone all further activities on HB 1361 until it can be brought before the Legislature Special Session again this spring. Mr. Bryan Hughes of District 5 is starting the process to have this bill repealed. It is my sincerest wish that you will help Mr. Hughes in his endeavor to get this bill repealed. As a resident and voter of Texas I support Mr. Hughes and I, like so many others would appreciate your support. Know that you will have my thanks and those of so many others that oppose this legislation.


Thank you for your time.


Respectfully,
Yvonne Harless
Independent horse owner
410 Wiedner Rd.
Cibolo, Texas 78108
(210)488-2063
Horseofadiffrent@aol.com

ESG
Mar. 6, 2006, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Sonesta:
I will be at that March 23 meeting in Round Rock and I WILL BE heard. Just ask anyone who knows me.

Yep - we're going together. Those poor folks won't know what hit them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JSwan
Mar. 6, 2006, 04:39 PM
Hey Texans - we want a full report!

MSP - don't forget the extension service. A lot of this stuff is going through them with no direct legislative input.

jparkes
Mar. 6, 2006, 06:27 PM
I will be attending a meeeting this Wednesday in a neighboring farming town on this very issue, other issues will also be addressed. It's suppose to be an all day event, so that everyone in attendance will have a chance to ask question and be heard.

Anybody here have specific questions that they might like me to ask?

Like Sonesta, my voice will be heard. I'm just concerned that I may be in the county lock-up before I'm finished!

*Y*
Mar. 7, 2006, 08:37 AM
I justed wanted to share that I talked to a friend of mine this morning who knows Tommy Lee Jones and she is going to call and talk to him about helping us fight this bill. He has cows and horses too and can spread the word to all the "big names" here in Texas. Hopefully we will Get R Done!!!!

Y

Heller69
Mar. 8, 2006, 08:56 AM
I just thought I'd let whomever was interested know there is a yahoo group now for the Texas fight. Texas Citizens Against NAIS (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Texas_Citizens_Against_NAIS/)

DJ
Mar. 8, 2006, 12:23 PM
Heller69 That is AWESOME. I think that this fight is going to be like water on limestone. If we just keep dripping on them... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

To bring media attention to this issues that the press is not paying attention to. I have heard that there is going to be some people riding in AUstin on April 19th. Have any of you all heard about/plan to participate in it?

DJ
Mar. 8, 2006, 12:26 PM
Also here is the list of FEDERAL bills that all of you are facing being passed by your reps. If you don't like this NAID thing, let your reps know to NOT support this:

There are 4 (Count them 4) bills being presented to Congress this coming session (Federal Level) that support and will endorse NAIS. they are:

Pending House and Senate bills pertaining to the NAIS include:
o S.2070 - The United States Animal Identification Plan Implementation Act (Hagel, NE, Rep.)
o H.R. 1254 - The National Farm Animal Identification Records Act (Peterson, Dem., NM)
o H.R. 3961 - The House version of S.2070, The United States Animal Identification Plan Implementation Act (Osborne, NE, Rep.)
o H.R. 3822 - The National Livestock Identification Act (McCollum, MN, Dem.)

DJ
Mar. 8, 2006, 01:33 PM
Latest hot off the "presses" :

News Release
Texas Animal Health Commission
Box l2966 * Austin, Texas 78711 * (800) 550-8242 * FAX (512) 719-0719
Bob Hillman, DVM * Executive Director
For info, contact Carla Everett, information officer, at 1-800-550-8242, ext. 710,
or ceverett@tahc.state.tx.us
For immediate release—
Texas Animal Health Commission Cancels March 23 Meeting
The Texas Animal Health Commission (TAHC) has canceled its March 23 meeting, which had been
scheduled in Round Rock (near Austin). The commissioners had planned to consider proposed regulations
that would require registration of sites where livestock, exotic livestock, domestic fowl and exotic fowl are
held, managed or handled, and to charge a fee for premises registration. More than 8,200 of the state’s
estimated 200,000 premises have been registered as of March 8, and voluntary premises registration
continues.
Premises registration is the foundation of the National Animal Identification System (NAIS), which, when
fully implemented, would enable animal health officials to trace the movement of diseased or exposed
livestock or poultry within 48 hours.
“We are seeking from the U.S. Department of Agriculture clear direction on National Animal Identification
System timelines for implementation,” said Dr. Bob Hillman, Texas’ state veterinarian and TAHC executive
director. He explained that, after the passage of HB 1361, the TAHC commissioners proposed regulations
for premises registration, and in February, held a Commission meeting to hear comments on the proposals.
The commissioners continue to consider the comments they received.
“The next meeting of the Commission is scheduled Thursday, May 4,” said Dr. Hillman. “However, the
agenda for that meeting will not be developed until late April. It is too early to know whether the proposed
regulations will be considered at that meeting.”
Information regarding the Commission meeting will be announced on the TAHC web site, in the Texas
Register and through public announcement. All TAHC commission meetings are open to the public. The
TAHC’s Austin headquarters may be reached at 1-800-550-8242, and the agency’s web site can be accessed
at http://www.tahc.state.tx.us.
---30---

Gisela
Mar. 13, 2006, 03:55 PM
I thought I would bring this to the top as this is very important for every horse owner. If you havent seen this site , pelase do so. It is very lenghty but very good reading and it pertains to horses.
http://www.rddavis.org/equitation/freedom-vs-id.html

Gisela

JSwan
Mar. 13, 2006, 04:13 PM
DJ et al - so if the March 23 meeting is postponed what are y'all doing in the meantime? Are you still agitating or are y'all trying to rally more Texans?

Gisela - thank you very much for the link.

I was talking to a lady at a check earlier in the season and I asked how the requirements of NAIS are going to affect her. She replied that NAIS didn't apply to her farm because she's too small.

So many folks, even in agriculture, aren't really aware of NAIS.

Gisela
Mar. 13, 2006, 06:34 PM
Heller69 you might want to register your link on this site, Very informative
http://nonais.org/ but I see there is a site up for Texans against NAIS

Also the site owner sent me this link for a sample handout
http://nonais.org/sampleflyers/NoNAISHandout.pdf

JSwan
Mar. 13, 2006, 06:38 PM
Gisela - I sent the guy that runs the first site some info on a dog owner database that is being created in Virginia - since many people are concerned about NAIS and pets either being included eventually, or will be subjected to further regulation. Not horse related - but every person who owns a dog in Virginia will have to register with the state.

Gisela
Mar. 13, 2006, 06:51 PM
Thank you J Swan, I have forwarded alot of information to a horse group here in Alaska. Only got one response. this is very serious as the other day on the news they were talking about a chip implant for humans for medical records and indentification purposes, I guess one day we all will be tracked.

I hope everyone will read the first site I posted, it makes alot of sense why they want NAIS to move forward.

Gisela
Mar. 13, 2006, 06:56 PM
Oh and I forgot to add that the American Horse Council is FOR THE NAIS.
http://www.horsecouncil.org/

poltroon
Mar. 13, 2006, 08:43 PM
NAIS is about one thing: protecting the profitability of agribusiness from animal disease outbreaks.

Horses are included not because horses are meat as much as because horses can serve as vectors for diseases that affect cows, like hoof and mouth.

The purpose of tracking every animal is so that if there is a disease outbreak in your area, the USDA knows to have someone come knock on your door, and they know how many corpses they need find to ensure they found them all. The USDA has a hard time recognizing that individual animals have a value other than $$/pound.

Maybe for horses they won't feel the need to kill them off. Perhaps merely tracking their every move in a database will be enough - a database that will no doubt be shared purposefully or unwittingly with all kinds of organizations, savory and not. (How hard will it be for your boss to find out that your "sick day" was actually spent 200 miles away with your horse? How hard will it be for a thief to find that you won't likely be home tonight because you left yesterday for a 4-day show?)

For other animal species, we've already seen USDA stuffing every bird they could find within a certain radius into woodchippers to stop Exotic Newcastle in Southern California. All poultry - including small personal flocks, including pets, including animals with no signs of disease.

DJ
Mar. 13, 2006, 09:22 PM
poltroon: right now, the way the TX law is written, the information is not subject to the public information act. But that is a two edged sword as it is available to just about any and every law enforcement type of organization. In other words, information can be gathered on you that only Homeland Security, local law enforcement and others can access, but the local media can not. They can do an unannounced inspection of your premise with out a warrant if they are not accompanied by a peace officer. This is in place already. What is changing is that we are obliged to notify them of our existence and ownership of animals. So, your boss couldn't get the info, as the law is written now. But if homeland security was suspicious of your property and saw you had animals...then get the TAHC to go in without a warrant for an announced inspection to see if they could flush out something and then the are legally obliged to share the info with Homeland security, who can now come in with cause with a warrant. Just a little backdoor way this could be used.

I forget who asked what we are doing now that the meeting has been postponed, but here is what some of us are doing. *Y* who posted here earlier, is trying to get a ride on the Capitol orgainized for April 19th . It does not have a permit or anything like that. You can see some of the stuff that we do at the Horse Gazette Forums.

My DH has been busy on the phone contacting both state and federal reps. Gov. Perrys response to my husbands call was to say that this is mandated at the federal level and his hands were tied. Bad response in an election year. Some of us have been writing to local papers. Just last week I saw an editorial in my hometown paper from someone I didn't know. The word is getting out.

DH also contacted the ACLU and AP and NBC as well as the local Fox station. Sadly, they are moving slowly on it or not at all. I guess who is on the hit list for American Idol sells more, I guess.

This letter was posted on the Horse Gazette forum just this evening.

From our former vets...

Dear Jill J.R. Labbe,


I recently read your Big Brother is watching editorial and wanted to thank you for exposing this system to your readers. I have touched base with several state and national contacts to voice my opposition to this mandatory system with lackluster results from all but a few.

My husband and I are ranchers and veterinarians in rural Texas. We recently retired from the veterinary practice after nearly 30 years. We still partner with family in ranching cattle, sheep and angora goats in Sutton, Kinney, and Uvalde Counties. After contacting state and federal representatives, listening to TAHC presentations at veterinary conferences and producer meetings, it appears that there is a huge potential for this developing into a bureaucratic nightmare. Although one would applaud the 48 hour tracking objective and the protection that this would afford, people should be made aware that there are already many Identification Programs that currently exist which are mandatory and voluntary and have performed successfully in Texas. To use BSE or 9/11 as an excuse to have a national ID program must be questioned and more carefully studied before Texas becomes the example of all the pitfalls that other states should avoid.



Enforcement alone will be a huge undertaking in Texas and unfortunately the producer is usually left with the financial responsibility. For instance, veterinarians used to get the Health Certificates from the TAHC at a cost of 0.25 cents per page. Now, they are $5.00 per page. Obviously, that cost increase is passed directly to the producer who needs the health certificate to move his animals. This is just a small example of the reason we hear from local farmers and ranchers that funding for this is a major concern. There will need to be annual federal funding for such a mandate and that will never be guaranteed. Large agribusiness will be sure to take most of any mandate budget before any would trickle down to the small ranch operations and small farm and ranch operations cannot bear the burden of the cost. Also, please understand, there will be labor costs to the rancher along with the unknown cost of device and premise management.



Here are just a few of the questions that at present have no direct answers for the public. Because the variety of species and the number of animals will make a uniform identification difficult, what is the official location of the ID device in varied animals, what type of device, success of the retention of the device, infection potential, loss and replacement cost, will group Lot ID be possible for herds, who will place it in the animal, who will enforce the removal and destruction of the used device, what is the potential for a black market to avoid the system, will there also be a license fee to be approved as an applicator, for reading, for removal, (we already know there will be a premise registration fee ), how much paper work for reporting? Finally, the primary concerns and questions involve the GPS registration or 911 address used for premise identification. It seems an invasion of privacy that many are not prepared to accept so readily, especially by July of this year. This program, as currently presented, seems another form of domestic surveillance.



In presenting this MANDATE to Texas Agriculture in the form of a Premise Registration (cost free only at conception) but leaving so many questions unanswered to the public will not help the success of implementation. This has to be user friendly at the very least. The cost of this program, the question of confidentiality of those involved, along with major parts of this program simply not sufficiently addressed in the phase-in process seems to doom Texas to an expensive trial and error. Truly, all Texans want to provide the safest and the best in all of the worlds agriculture. Yes, we would have to follow a USDA mandate but perhaps we should find something a little more Texas friendly. This is moving too fast for many in Texas. We need and deserve answers as to why we are mandated to implement a huge program that is intrusive, has no designated agent of action or enforcement at many levels, no budget or funding, questionable timelines for implementation, and all in a state that already has several programs in the status quo that are functioning very successfully. It has already proven difficult for many to register their premise and that is just the first step.



We realize that TAHC did postpone action on the proposed July deadline, but that does not mean that this issue is resolved so we need more editorials, more news coverage and more people to ask questions about this program.

I have to say that to many in rural Texas it feels like the Orwellian knot tightens, strangling what small degree of personal liberty is left to the land owner.



Thank you for giving the issue public exposure.





Sincerely,

Dr Lindi Dunbar

Dr. Mike Dunbar



Sonora, TX

here is the link, if you want to follow the thread:http://horsegazette.com/class/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11963

So, no we aren't resting on our cactii here. It is one of those things that is growing in people being aware. But it is going to take each of us effectively communicating this to "non animal" people and how it is going to impact them to get enough ground swell to hopefully change or delay it. I am hopeful because I have seen more and more people becoming aware and contacting representation. It is going to take that and a whole lot more. I wish that I had an inside in the media. They are so strangely quiet about it.

JSwan
Mar. 13, 2006, 10:24 PM
I hope y'all have better luck than us in Virginia. This new law about registering our pets with the gov't is completely freaking me out - and folks just give me a blank stare when I mention it.

If were aren't going to use our Constitution - we should have just given it to Iraq.

ghazgal
Mar. 14, 2006, 10:35 AM
I have felt the past few years that the " ID " # that USEF now forces us to have at no charge is the beginning of this. I have felt offended from the beginning that I have to register my pony with them to go and compete. I also feel that since they do it at no charge they have every intention of handing the info over to the USDA. Anyone else have any idea about this?

JSwan
Mar. 14, 2006, 01:46 PM
I don't know - I know the "number" the USDA will require will be a premises registration number and has a protocol associated with it. (Like your social security number, certain numbers mean your were born/received the card in a certain state, etc.)

Whether breed registries or competition related groups will either be solicited by the USDA for information I don't know. I can't see that they'd have the staff to track down each horse - but perhaps they could use membership lists to send form letters informing the member of the impending micrchipping and registration. But that is PURE speculation on my part. Why duplicate effort, right? Oh wait - stupid me - I'm talking about the government here.

Perhaps you could ask?

Gisela
Mar. 14, 2006, 09:00 PM
Since the Govt has us scared of the Avian outbreak this will shed alittle light.

http://www.grain.org/briefings/?id=194

poltroon
Mar. 14, 2006, 09:30 PM
I'm sure that eventually the USEF db would be tied to the USDA db, but they're really completely independent. USEF has no way of tying the data they have to an individual animal, nor do they know where it is. USDA doesn't care about USEF's data.

I see perhaps the other way around, that USEF would use the USDA chip/data to ensure that the horse you brought for 2nd Year Green Working Hunters this week is the same one you brought with that name last week. ;)

As for the data, as someone who works in IT I'm well familiar with the differences between what the law says, what is true in day-to-day practice, and what is possible. The history of the Social Security Number does not leave me with warm fuzzy feelings that this data will be kept accurately and safely. Consider that they'll have to accept data reports from every animal owner in the US - to tell them that an animal is moved, dead, or sold. To ensure that the person sending that data is authorized to do so and is sending accurate data is going to require some fairly sophisticated technology.

Now imagine that your animal has been stolen and the thief has hacked the database to change its history. As far as the police can tell, you never owned it in the first place....

JSwan
Mar. 14, 2006, 09:56 PM
Gisela - thanks for that article. Factory farming is not doing ANYONE any favors. And NAIS is just going to further solidfy their control of the market.

Our farms provided much safer and nutrious food before Cargill and Monsanto were vomited out of the bowels of the earth. Sorry to sound like a tree hugging hippie. Horse people keep thinking that NAIS is good for horses because it will help locate them if they are lost or stolen. But it's not going to. Or that somehow it's going to protect us from disease. But it won't.

NAIS is just a solution looking for a problem.

Now I know why people go off grid live in a yurt somewhere.

Gisela
Mar. 14, 2006, 10:13 PM
People need to read that article.The govt is leading us to believe the small farmer is bad and that big business is better for safe guarding our food chain. After reading this article it makes me very afraid to eat chicken. And the USAD wants to export our chicken for processing overseas and bring it back here. the avian flu started over there. Well I guess if I lived as a chicken in masses I would get sick too. NAIS is not about locating a lost pet, its about big business. When I read all about the NAIS it scares the S**T out of me and I dont scare very easy.
When NAIS hits all 50 states its not because we didnt try and warn.

DJ
Mar. 15, 2006, 01:06 AM
Not only am I a horse owner but I am a chicken owner. I never realized how independent it makes a family to own a few chickens. If money were tight, it is a quick, cheap source of protein for us to have scrambled eggs or egg salad for dinner. (Haven't eaten the birds themselves. They are really more of the pet type) One quote in the article was talking about how she knows her chickens and if one is sick . The factories don't do that . This is so true. I know them very well. Sort of like we know our horses or dogs. You know that there is something NQR. You don't want the rest of your flock sick, you don't have that many to lose, so you deal with it quickly. Either with medicine, or euthanizing. The factory chicken is not so lucky. The caretakers probably don't notice until there is a carcass that they have a problem.

Keep fighting it folks. This is bigger than just our horses, I fear.

Gisela
Mar. 22, 2006, 04:12 PM
If you join this group it discusses horses and the National Animal Identification System. Very good information and how it will affect you.
Ask questions. Please be very informed as this will affect everyone in ALL STATES. Look up you state vet to see what they have to say for your area.
Also do not believe that the Amercan Horse council is Anti Nais. They are all for it. Read do lots of reseach and get involved. ASK Questions Going to any function will require you to notify the Gov of your goings and then you will be required to report back in.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/no2nais4horses/?yguid=11713595
http://nonais.org/

http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/about/pdf/NAIS_Draft_Strategic_Plan_42505.pdf Download the NASI Draft Strategic Plan , Read this very carefully as it has some very good key words.
Sign uo for his newsletter for Alerts.
http://nonais.org/sampleflyers/NoNAISHandout.pdf
Sample Flyer for handouts
http://nonais.org/sampleflyers/NoNAISPoster.pdf
poster
http://nonais.org/wp-content/sampleflyers/AttnLivestockOwnersFoodEaters.pdf
Another flyer

This is not good for Equines, or small livestock owners or homesteaders. This NAIS is ALL ABOUT BIG INDUSTRY-MONEY and we will be paying for it. It is not about disease as they say, Mad Cow Disease can be taken care of if the Gov would stop feeding the infected by products back to cows. Cows do not eat meat. The USDA is also not doing there job, They need to test every cow. Not just here and there.

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/business/14121283.htm
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2006-03-14T235217Z_01_N14374166_RTRUKOC_0_US-MADCOW-USDA-SURVEILLANCE.xml



Do not let NAIS pass. Write letters why you oppose this. Write a letter to the editor of you news paper to get the word out about NAIS. How come the Media is not picking this up? Go to your feed store and post the flyers I have attached. This will affect everyone. Small livestock owners, homesteaders will go under. Your feed stores will loose buisness. Your animals shelters will have an abundnance of turned in animals or animals destroyed is this what you want to see. Fight this, Do not let it become mandatory.
Gisela

DJ
Mar. 24, 2006, 02:01 PM
Cross posted from another board:

"Uh oh, Kinky...better get on the stick....

IMMEDIATE RELEASE Thursday, March 23, 2006
512-469-9393

STRAYHORN Calls for A Halt to the National Animal Identification
System
and Perry's Mandated Participation of this New Fee-or as most Texans
call it a Tax
STRAYHORN WANTS IT ADDED TO SPECIAL SESSION
(AUSTIN) - Texas Independent Candidate for Governor Carole Keeton
Strayhorn today said Gov. Rick Perry should stop the state's
participation in the National Animal Identification System and that
the
whole program should be looked at from top to bottom in the upcoming
special session of the Legislature.
"No half-baked solution should be accepted and the Texas Animal
Identification System should be rescinded and repealed," and Strayhorn
stated that "the Texas Legislature should clearly state that it will
not
fund any such program and is against the federal NAIS.
"This program is big government tax mandates at its worst,"
Strayhorn said. "This unfunded tax mandate threatens the livelihoods
of
ranchers and places unreasonable burdens on every animal handler from
veterinarians to livestock show organizers to children raising prized
livestock."
Perry signed into law House Bill 1361 that directs the Texas
Animal Health Commission to create rules administering the government
ID
program that could require each horse, cow, steer, bull, pig, sheep,
goat, turkey, chicken and other domestic and exotic livestock be
registered and tagged with an electronic identifier.
It also requires each rancher - cattle, horse, chicken, etc. -
to
register with the state and pay a fee.
Strayhorn said Perry, who once served as Texas Agriculture
Commissioner,
should not be supporting this intrusion into rural Texas life and
lifestyle.
"Maybe he didn't understand just how intrusive this program is when he
signed it into law," she said. "But now that the Texas Animal Health
Commission is debating rules to implement the program, it is clear
this
unwieldy tax program needs to be abandoned."
She said lawmakers should be given the opportunity during the
special session Perry has called to begin April 17th to abolish Texas'
participation in the program.
"The USDA is already slowing this program and is essentially
letting states impose the animal tracking systems," Strayhorn said.
"Texas should just say no, now."
Carole Keeton Strayhorn has always fought for less mandates
and
less government regulation and especially against unfunded and
unnecessary mandates that create new layers of taxes and unnecessary
burdens on our farmers, ranchers, and veterinarians, and even tries to
tax our school children raising prize livestock for competitions.
"I strongly oppose the overly burdensome and intrusive NAIS because it
is another tax on our agriculture community, which should be taxed
less
not more, unduly burdens our veterinarians, and because it is
certainly
not well thought out. It appears to be another example of special
interest legislation being crammed down Texans throats."
"Our children and grandchildren, who are competing with their prized
livestock, should not be so burdened," she said.
"I am still strongly fighting the governor's still secret agreement
with
a foreign company to take our land and put toll roads all over Texas
with Trans Texas CATASTROPHE," Strayhorn concluded."





There is a special session of the TX reps in April. If you haven't contacted your rep yet, please do and let them know what you think. It is possible that they can repeal or alter HB1361. But they won't do it unless they think that it is an election issue. Your calls, and your friends and relatives calls will tell them that it is an electable issue! Now is the time to object!!! Tell everyone you know!:cool:

Gisela
Mar. 30, 2006, 02:11 AM
These articles are very long, Its the workings of the USDA and Big Business
Read about USDA and Mad Cow and many other things they do.

http://www.agribusinessaccountability.org/pdfs//289_USDA Inc..pdf


http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/food/dirty-deal

Jumphigh83
Mar. 30, 2006, 09:10 AM
Anytime the Govt gets too big and full of themselves there is going to be trouble. Smaller govt, personal responsiblility, greater freedoms. Between emminant domain and pet tracking I would say Big Brother needs to be cut down a few notches..Good luck. (Socialist Republic of America) where is the eye roll icon?

BornToRide
Mar. 30, 2006, 11:04 PM
Just another reason to go organic.....poultry factories are not the only health problems. Cattle and pork feedlots are just as bad for people and the environment.

Tracking isn't the solution - prevention and better management is....Dear God, please, PLEASE send more common sense our way.............:rolleyes:

cssc
Apr. 3, 2006, 03:09 AM
Please check out nonais.org & read the links! You can prove to yourself from many different sources why it is so WRONG! Saying "it just won't work, " while probably true, is a copout. We cannot afford any level of complacency. I have read most of the links on this website, e-mailed everyone I know about it(and none of them had heard of it), put up flyers in grocery stores, & will be writing to senators, congressmen & the president very soon.
The fact is the government should not even THINK about doing this to it's people. It is a bold invasion of privacy & property rights. Big Brother all the way! You have a license to drive a car & own a gun, but does the government require you to tell them when you take the car & where you are going? Can they track you through satellite?
How much more will we let big business & lobbyists push the American people around?
Writing snail mail letters is the most effective way to get attention. I wish everyone would feel as compelled as I do to do this. And FYI, i am not into conspiracy theories. I'm just someone who loves her chickens (and great tasting eggs), goose, horse & kitties & will never let the government touch them! They are mine!
I know it takes time to read articles, but you will do yourself a great disservice if you don't thoroughly educate yourself on NAIS.

dilemmalyn
Apr. 3, 2006, 05:18 AM
Didn't read everything, sorry, just wanted to post my thoughts.

What's next? Dogs? Cats? Will we be fined because we let out cats our at night? Will non-chipped animals found on the streets be killed instantly instead of going to a humane society?

I think it a waste of money - both the laymen and the government. The gov already has so many agencies doing this and that to monitor everything in America, and none of them work too well, lol. Even the cameras at stoplights (thank goodness lol).

I oppose things like this, but I feel like this is the future. Everything chipped to be tracked by satellite, everything reported to some government database.

cssc
Apr. 3, 2006, 03:24 PM
A lot of people believe cats & dogs will be next. New York is tryin (or did) make that a law already.

MSP
Apr. 4, 2006, 04:20 PM
http://nonais.org/index.php/2006/04/04/usda-lies-about-nais-support/

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/!ut/p/_s.7_0_A/7_0_1OB?contentidonly=true&contentid=2006/03/0106.xml

USDA says the people are in favor of animal ID System!

"General Opinions Expressed

• Most respondents were in favor of an animal identification system, but do not want to be burdened with the costs.
• Of the respondents who are in favor of an animal identification system, most would prefer a mandatory, publicly funded system with full Government control of the tracking database.
• Additionally, some respondents think the Farm Service Agency is the appropriate agency to deliver the program.
• With regard to the respondents who favor an animal identification system but prefer a privately held database, their reasons stem from cost and confidentiality concerns. These respondents prefer that only disease surveillance information be held publicly and that production data information be held in a private industry system. They contend that industry has the resources and initiative and can design, build, and manage the system."

Read the whole document at this link:

http://www.usda.gov/documents/NATIONAL_ANIMAL_IDENTIFICATION_SYSTEM.doc


Some of us doubt this very much! This is coming from MIKE JOHANNS who was also responsible for ignoring the will of the people and allow horse slaughter to continue!

JSwan
Apr. 5, 2006, 06:50 PM
Yes, dogs and cats are next. Virginia will have a database of dog owners thanks to HB339. Mandatory chipping of all domestic animals was defeated this past session, but will be reintroduced next session, as well as a statewide fee of 35$ per animal for each dog or cat license.

Born To Ride - i agree with you about the organic thing but NAIS includes ALL animals - including free range, organic, or even one laying hen in the backyard. ALL animals.

I'm a bit down in the dumps about NAIS and similar programs for domestic animals because invariably when I bring up the subject - people are so horribly misinformed that anything I say just makes me look like a kook. But here are just some of the responses I have had - mostly from horse owners.

1) If we have nothing to hide, then we shouldn't mind giving the government any info it wants about us.

2) It will stop terrorists from attacking our food supply.

3) It will help find my lost or stolen horse.

4) It doesn't affect me because I only have a few animals.

5) It doesn't apply to horses.

6) It will stop any disease from spreading.


I simply don't know what to do. The ACLU does not appear to be interested, and the only national groups that might have the resources to litigate are the ones behind NAIS to begin with, or that support it. The American Horse Council is for NAIS -even though the recommendations it submitted in 2005 were ignored.

The general public's perception is that it will protect them from terrorists or BSE and since NAIS doesn't not directly affect them - they don't care.

Soooooooo what to do?? I am philsophically opposed to this sort of government intrusion - but short of civil disobedience there is no petition for redress of grievances.

Gisela
Apr. 6, 2006, 05:46 AM
Oh J. Swan Im so sorry, I have bombarded our groups here in Alaska and have had a handful of replys. the replies I get are of upset people.
Have you gone on to NONAIS and see if the state you live in has a yahoo group. you could help there.

I sent out tons of information and people are slowly coming around. You need to include emails written by other people to the non believers. Put alot of questions out to them.

Im so afraid of what is coming. Here in Alaska I have heard that if this program is implemented they will no longer have that animal. They will shoot it. Then we have people who will just turn them loose, turning them into the animal shelter if they are not taggerd will result in a fine so I know that wont happen.

I know I will never buy another livestock animal again and I have horses.
People who breed will see less and less buyers and Im one. This will boomer rang because people are not going to deal with the burden of tracking animals just for a damm ride. Wait till a few parents get fined because there kids took the pony for a ride and were caught. Anyone in authority will be monitoring this program including your trusted vet whom you also have been friends with they willl have to report you.

The american Horse council is all for the NAIS. Horses functions cost alot of money, I do not want to be flamed for what Im about to say, Stop promoting the horse shows, the breed clubs etc. Hit them in the pocket book like they are to us.

Yes it will boomer rang In fact all livestock should be included, boycott. Is Attending a show and promoting your horse or livstock animal so much more important then this. You are giving your freedom away. Remember what Hilter did.

Cancel your horse or livestock magazines and tell them why. do it for 6 months or a year Let the livestock and horse industry know how you really feel. they will get the point. They need the horse people to earn an income. Our passion for horses or whatever species you have will be affected for now and for ever. Including your childrens childrens. is this what everyone wants. What will it take to awaken the people?. I do not know.
Gisela

CarrieK
Apr. 6, 2006, 06:25 AM
Here's some info for Michiganians (Michiganders can avert their eyes ;) )

http://michigan.gov/documents/MDA_Electronic_ID_Brochure_84223_7.pdf

http://www.michigan.gov/mda/0,1607,7-125--56452--,00.html

edited to add that there is a concern in Michigan about bovine TB.

poltroon
Apr. 7, 2006, 03:55 AM
JSwan, I hear you. We've all got outrage fatigue. We've just got to keep swinging.

Gisela
Apr. 11, 2006, 04:15 PM
Hello everyone,

Please get on the phone and call all of your local radio talk show or public
announcement stations. Look in the phone book for their numbers. We need the word to get out.

If you eat, and would like to continue that practice...There will be a rally against the
National Animal Identification System in Jefferson City, Missouri at the Capitol
Rotunda on Tuesday April 18th from 9am until Noon. Some signs will be available, but
please feel free to make your own. Signs must be hand held with no sticks on them.
Please contact nomonais@excite.comor call 417 962 0030 for more information
Thanks!!

RNB
Apr. 11, 2006, 04:26 PM
If this has already been posted then I apoligize...

http://www.horsecouncil.org/equineid.htm

poltroon
Apr. 11, 2006, 04:39 PM
If this has already been posted then I apoligize...

http://www.horsecouncil.org/equineid.htm

I think the key fact in that website is that the point of the program is to protect the cattle and poultry industry. ID of horses is not being done to benefit horses, but to protect cattle.

ESG
Apr. 11, 2006, 07:40 PM
Yeah - THAT makes sense. :rolleyes:

At least here in Texas, the discussion has been tabled until next year. They're still encouraging "voluntary premises registration", but nothing mandatory as of right now. All you Texans need to join in and deluge this @$$hat of a state vet we have, that's trying to push this through and include horses, with e-mails, phone calls, and letters. And show up at the meetings, as well as talking to your state representative(s) about quashing this thing before it becomes even more of a PITA than it already is. :mad:

JSwan
Apr. 11, 2006, 08:13 PM
More reason not to implement NAIS....

A group of European computer researchers have demonstrated that it is possible to insert a software virus into radio frequency identification tags, part of a microchip-based tracking technology in growing use in commercial and security applications.

To read the entire article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/15/technology/15tag.html?ex=1300078800&en=24f421ff24864376&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

JSwan
Apr. 11, 2006, 08:20 PM
ederal investigators say the government isn't doing all it should to notify citizens that information about them is being collected by systems employing data-mining techniques.

The Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, reviewed five data-mining efforts employed by the Small Business Administration, Agriculture's Risk Management Agency, the Internal Revenue Service, the State Department, and the FBI.

To read the entire article:

http://informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=170101285

Gisela
Apr. 13, 2006, 01:44 AM
Please go to DownsizeDC.org sign up,it's free and send an email concerning on NAIS to your rep in congress This group is working for us and needs 150.000 people.
They are also asking for donatiosn to get this in the media.
Thank you.

Murphy's Mom
Apr. 13, 2006, 02:13 AM
Nobody believes me when I tell them about NAIS. My boss, a former Wyoming ranch boy with family still in the business, told me I was being paranoid. He said I was just getting urban legend type stuff and I should ignore it. Didn't even believe me when I said he could read all about it on the USDA home page! Another coworker raises QHs. She said "It will never happen, not in this country." When I pointed out that it already WAS happening she replied "That's ridiculous. It will run small farmers out of business." But still, she has no plans to read up on it or protest it because....It'll never happen. :( Even my horse friends don't believe me. In the past month, three separate emails have flown through the ranks of two of my horse clubs (none by me). Each one has started with...I don't know if this is true, but I thought I'd forward it. How do you get people to wake up and smell their dwindling freedoms?

The NoNAIS.org site is great! I signed the petition and downloaded a "No NAIS" mailing label template. I'm going to print some out and start putting them on all of my letters. Too bad I found them after I mailed my IRS forms! I'm also going to create some sort of "fact sheet" and email all of my relatives (city people) on why they should care and what they can do. Off to the DownsizeDC.org site now to check it out.

Gisela
Apr. 13, 2006, 03:03 AM
People here in AK think that it wont affect them well I guess they will have a big surprise if this gets mandated. Let me say that this program got hidden in another bill, The funding for the war, they had to pass it Now we are fighting for our lives and rights.

Don't forget to send messages to all your senators and reps. this is the only way they will notice. If they get enough complaints on what this program will do to us they will have to look at it but we have to hit them up side the head with emails to get their attention.
On downsizedc.org they also have another bill that would require our government to read all the bills before they sign the damm things. Read here for more information
http://www.downsizedc.org/read_the_laws.shtml send your email on that also

On NONAIS.org they have flyers ready to go , just print them out.

Murphy's Mom
Apr. 13, 2006, 11:18 AM
Looks like quite a few of the COTH board don't believe it will happen or perhaps just don't care. Just over 1200 views of this thread, but close to 16,000 views on the Parelli thread! :no:

ESG
Apr. 13, 2006, 11:26 AM
J Swan, thank you for posting the nonais.org link. I just e-mailed my state rep in Washington with my concerns.

EVERYONE needs to do this! ALL of us need to tell the powers that be that they're about to step in a big pile of manure, and they'll be a long time cleaning it up.

And Murphy'sMom & Gisela, I feel your pain. I'm telling friends that are horse owners/breeders about this bill, and no one believes it! COTH, as the USEF has learned to its dismay, is a powerful, powerful entity. If we all pull together and start screaming blue murder at the powers that be, we CAN get this thing quashed. But it's going to take ALL of us, calling,writing, e-mailing our state and national representatives to make ourselves heard. It CAN happen - we just have to put in a little effort. ;)