Breeders please read this!!! [Archive]

jumpgirl

Dec. 17, 2004, 09:29 PM

Well, U.S. warmblood breeders do need to sit up and take notice since that is the message many sport buyers are sending you. In my opinion and experience from shopping in europe and shopping here is that

1. yes, U.S. horses are typically priced higher for less training.

2. yes, the quality of the horse is often times misrepresented by the breeder here in the U.S. vs. the very objective description a european breeder will give a horse they have for sale - does that equal less quality here vs there? It does if you are the one spending your time and money flying all over the place to see an american horse that the breeder is barn blind or simply does not have any kind of eye. Breeders here like "show dog" warmbloods that are "so sweet" etc, winning on the line, etc. A european breeder will tell you more reliably what that horse will be like in the show ring based on the dam, aunt, uncle, full brothers, full sisters.

3. Yes, a person can set up a business importing horses and make money doing it. Most warmblood breeders who have imported have done it.

4. I beleive you can do better networking over there than here because, really guys, have you ever DEALT with American trainers? You have to search high and low to find one that WON'T cheat you. American trainers network among themselves in an effort to see how much of a buyer's money than can trick them out of. Inflated prices, fake vet checks, kickbacks, secret commissions - that is the standard operating practice among trainers "finding" a horse for their client. If you don't think so, then you just haven't caught them yet.

Majestic Gaits

Dec. 18, 2004, 05:33 AM

This is a good post to discuss. There are issues and we do need and I think are addressing them here in this country. It takes time, but it is getting better.

The horses are priced higher in Europe because it costs so much more to breed, raise and train them here. They have high number of breedings in Europe, lower vet costs, boarding, training, showing etc. I know I am always looking for ways to get my costs down. It is not so easy, but there is lots of initiative to do that with the breeders. Coops, breeders groups, group advertising, networking, etc. We try to support our breeders with advise for sales as much as we can and network as much as we can to refer buyers.

We don't have the advantage of going to one place and seeing a lot of horses here, but we are working on that here in the country with breeders groups and networking.

I disagree that the Europeans represent their horses better than here. I go over there a lot and they have just as much problems with people making the horse being the best horse as we do. There is good and bad places to go there, just like here. One thing that we do better here is more handling when the horses are young. The advantage they have there is the costs are cheaper for them, they raise a high number of horses so they have more to choose from and a higher turnover.

People are learning about bloodlines here and I have to say the breeders are definately in front of the trainers/riders with bloodlines. Most of the riders and trainers could care less what the bloodlines are. That we have to change. We are getting more and more access to data here in this country on bloodlines through the USEF, so that is a big step in the right direction. Always lots of work to do, but it is getting there. Now if the riders and shows would report the bloodlines and breeders, we'll move forward even more!

The $ is terrible against the euro right now, so it is not so cheap anymore. Actually I think that has helped us with sales here a bit recently. But, also, the American buyer truly would rather buy here than in Europe. I hear it all the time. If they find it here first they do buy here. So, lets make it so they can find it here. It does cost us more, but we have the high euro and import costs to our advantage. Not sure we can change the high numbers, but we can network and help each other out more.

Born in the USA is a nice initiative and incentive for buying here too. We need more of those incentives.

Not all trainers are like that, but this is a problem and difficulty in sales for us here because of this. And they have the problem in Europe too, I've witnessed it there too. The only way I see to address this is to educate the buyer. They do need their trainers input and they should be paid, but they should insist on being upfront on a fee that they pay the trainer. As long as the buyers let this happen, it will continue. Of course some sellers can stop it too that support it! But, this is not just an American problem, it happens in Europe too.

Kathy
www.majesticgaits.com (http://www.majesticgaits.com)

stillpointfarm

Dec. 18, 2004, 05:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jumpgirl:
4. I beleive you can do better networking over there than here because, really guys, have you ever DEALT with American trainers? You have to search high and low to find one that WON'T cheat you. American trainers network among themselves in an effort to see how much of a buyer's money than can trick them out of. Inflated prices, fake vet checks, kickbacks, secret commissions - that is the standard operating practice among trainers "finding" a horse for their client. If you don't think so, then you just haven't caught them yet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HAHAHAHA http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
THIS is why the GERMANS LOVE the "Stupid Americans"
Because what you are implying in your statement, is that an American will cheat you and a German WILL NOT !! hahahahahahaha http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
The Germans have the market cornered on how to cheat an American and make them feel all warm and cozy about it.
Give me a BREAK....your statement is ridiculous
And YOU don't think the Germans network among themselves....on what American client is coming with all the buckeroos......
And there's NOT inflated prices to the American...how Would you know ??
And they don't have kickbacks ?? hahaha http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
And the Germans don't have Secert Commissions, as you call it, payment under the table....
Wake up...you MUST be naive !!

quote by Jumpgirl "If you don't think so, then you just haven't caught them yet"

This goes on everywhere, in all walks of business, it is called capitalism....DO NOT think the Germans are pure as the driven snow.....it is a naive concept and eyes wide shut, which is WHY the Germans LOVE us so much!! hahaha http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
http://www.stillpointfarm.net

Daydream Believer

Dec. 18, 2004, 06:11 AM

How frustrating it must be to breed warmbloods...spend a small fortune getting nice foals on the ground and then read something like that. Thank God I'm not! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I also think anyone who thinks a European is any more honest about their horses than an American is deluding themselves. Get real! All I have to do is look at what folks are importing and I can see with my own eyes that is not so.

siegi b.

Dec. 18, 2004, 07:25 AM

stillpointfarm - I really resent all that German bashing you're engaging in. It's not productive, it's nasty and for the most part not true.
There are "horse dealers" everywhere and it behooves us to be careful whenever dealing with a person we don't know. That holds true for all nationalities, not just the Germans.
So I would appreciate it if you could stick with the subject at hand.
Thank you!

Bugs-n-Frodo

Dec. 18, 2004, 08:35 AM

I am not being snarky, this is a legitimate question. Don't the Germans have more support for the equine BUSINESS than we do here in the US? It seems to me that here, people who have horses and breed horses are considered wealthy folks with an expensive hobby. Except for racing, the horse industry is not taken seriously as a business. You hear it all of the time, I know I do. People think I have money, or that my parents have money, because I have horses, and that it is just a hobby. NOT TRUE! Over there, I believe, you can make a living breeding and raising/training horses, whereas here, that is just not the case most of the time. It is cheaper to keep horses over there and I think the general public is more supportive of the equine industry. I have a good friend, who is Swedish, who says that, when she is here, she is amazed by the lack of knowledge the general public has here. Her family bred and raised Swedish Warmbloods, and exported them. They had many horses and bred many horses. It is much cheaper there, even in Sweden, from what I understand, than it is here. I believe we need more support from the general public in the US, but how do we go about getting it? We can't even get Agricultural support here, people really do seem to think that corn is made in a lab. The industry that rules our country is contracting. We build all of these "McMansions" on, what used to be, farm land, and watch the prices of produce go through the roof.

Now, I am not a breeder, I have bred one horse, and that was for me, with no intentions to sell. However, I feel as though it is in the best interest of ALL of us who are involved with horses, whether it be showing, breeding, or training, to try to come up with a better plan. My vet said something to me, the last time he was out, that really got through to me. We were talking about slot machines, and the rise and fall of the racing industry here in Maryland. He said, "The horse people here need a voice, and the problem is, we don't seem to be able to organize ourselves enough to have a voice." It is true! There are so many little oraganizations around, but not one BIG organization, who could be the voice of MANY. How would we go about doing this? We, as a whole, need to be taken seriously, by NOT just the equine industry, but by others as well. Until folks start coming to OUR country to export OUR horses, I doubt it will happen. I am tired of being treated like a little girl everytime I mention horses, and that is EXACTLY what people think, who don't have horses. If the general population saw that horses were being exported from our country, and MAKING money, maybe views and support would be different. I just don't even know where to begin doing that. Obviously, if our own members are buying horses from Germany, Sweden, France etc, then they don't take the US breeders seriously either. I think there is some VERY nice blood here in the states, I DO think that the cost of buying here is high, but it almost HAS to be. The industry is a completely different thing here, and that needs to change. Just my two cents...

stillpointfarm

Dec. 18, 2004, 09:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by siegi b.:
stillpointfarm - I really resent all that German bashing you're engaging in. It's not productive, it's nasty and for the most part not true.
There are "horse dealers" everywhere and it behooves us to be careful whenever dealing with a person we don't know. That holds true for all nationalities, not just the Germans.
So I would appreciate it if you could stick with the subject at hand.
Thank you! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

seigi b....au contraire.... not to be overly simplistic but THIS was the subject at hand.
On the other hand, is it okay to bash American Breeders or do you only find it offensive when we say something that might upset the business of importing ?
Really, I don't see where there was German bashing. The only comparison that I made was between the American Trainer declared corrupt by so called "tricks" and how shopping overseas is a blissful transaction with honesty only found in Europe, I found that offensive and very naive !!
A proud U.S. Breeder !!
http://www.stillpointfarm.net

LLDM

Dec. 18, 2004, 09:34 AM

Okay guys - chill out a little. It was one mean spirited comment by a random poster. We can't let it get us fighting amoung ourselves. It was diected at me, so I responded. Twice. And I am making it about all of us as best I can.

If we let it get our collective goats, then that one poster has had way more impact than I am willing to let them have.

MBP has really helped me see the light on a couple of things - The biggest is that no matter how different our individual goals and ideas, we have more in common than not. There is good and bad everywhere and we all know it. The Europeans are much better than we are about presenting a solid front to vistors. That, my friends, is a sign of maturity and should be our first lesson from them. Don't bash each other nor the people who want to buy from you. I'm sure they bash plenty in private - they are human after all, just like us. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bugs - We do have an official Org. It's called the USEF. Since they have recently stopped their own little war and divested themselves of the day to day business of the H/J issues, it might just be a good time to tell them what you just posted here. It makes perfect sense.

My other recent epiphany is that when folks buy in Europe (and elsewhere around the globe) they not only support European/et. al. breeders, but also those trainers, vets, farriers and various other Equine professionals. This hurts our whole industry.

Now I don't mind folks shopping and buying overseas. It's a free country and all that. It is the mindset that it is the ONLY place to shop which bothers me so much. And while Americans bristle at the idea of regulations of any sort, we are happy to take advantage of what European regulations produce. Certified professional trainers at all levels, tightly controled breeding programs (in the sense that all horses must be registered somewhere and have identification papers/passports) and various laws, tax regulations and rules which do not hinder smaller operations. Plus they do a most excellent job of tracking their horses' breeding and show results.

So let's be positive, shall we and not let the turkeys get us down! Let's ask of our NGBs, regitries and NF for the things that will help bring us together and are positive.

And please read the letter at the top of this forum, and do contact the orgs you belong to.

Oh and Bugs - we do export reining horses to Germany! It can be done. I also believe we export TBs, Tennessee Walkers and other uniquely American breeds.

SCFarm

Bugs-n-Frodo

Dec. 18, 2004, 09:50 AM

LLDM, I was thinking of the USEF the whole time I was writing my post. The problem is, not enough people are involved with the organization. Yes, many are, but MORE need to be. I don't have a problem with people importing horses from Europe either, that is how WE got OUR excellent bloodlines here in the first place. Many US breeders continue to import horses to add to their breeding program, to introduce new blood. I agree with that practice. I also know that many of our QHs, TBs, Morgans and other US bred horses are exported, but not many people DO know that. That is a shame. Too many people feel the same way I do, that my voice is but small, and will not be heard or considered. I have struggled with that most of my life. I love the fact that I look very young for my age, but it has DEFINITE down sides. One of which is that I struggle to be taken seriously most of the time. That is NOT an excuse however, and I shall get to the business of doing exactly what you suggested. I would love to make an effort to make a difference in our community, even if it is a small one. Thank you for the suggestion.

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 18, 2004, 10:16 AM

I agree that the Sporthorse Breeders need a voice. We now have the USDF for the dressage riders, the USEA for the Combined Training people, and the USHJA for the Hunter Jumpers. We need a United States Sporthorse Breeders Association to give us a voice, and develop programs to help the breeders. Yes, it may be another fee to pay, but one that may really find ways to help the American Breeder.

Bugs-n-Frodo

Dec. 18, 2004, 10:22 AM

LLDM, please check your PTs. Thanks. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kareen

Dec. 18, 2004, 10:37 AM

The 'European breeders get support' and 'costs are lower in Europe' generalizations are a fairy tale and nothing more. The difference is not in whether breeders make a profit or not. They generally don't be it here in Europe or in the US. The difference is whether they expect to make a profit. Here it is considered common sense that horse breeding is to be considered a hobby as the likelihood of ending up with a profit is fairly marginal. In the US any - exuse me - bored housewife will call their breeding operation a business and expect to make a profit with what they do http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If you look at the numbers and look at who really imports you'll see that it's mostly Americans. It's not your sneaky European horsedealer type that is still flying them over literally by the truckload weak US dollar or not . So if you forget about your resentments for a minute and think about it: Would they really do this if it didn't make any kind of sense for them?
Interestingly the people who seem to shout 'shop American' loudest all seem to have at least one imported horse on the property themselves. Some of them are even making a good business finding horses in Europe and reselling them at home. Go figure http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I don't see anything wrong with this. It's supply and demand. As for the Germans loving the stupid Americans I always thought the general assumption was the other way around LOL. Prejudice works both ways as well. Americans definitely have earned a reputation of being difficult here. I'm glad I have enough clients to prove this statement wrong and I feel with the tremendous costs involved in bringing a horse over it is more than justified to be specific about what you want.

I do agent a lot and yes I make a profit. Are there hidden commissions involved? No. Do I want to get paid for my time and effort? Yes.
If Americans end up paying more it is mostly because of some trainer they have with them who wants to be paid extra for merely 'ok-ing' the horse and in my experience these folks usually couldn't care less whether or not the horse is right for the client as long as they make their commission.
It may also be because of the completely different shopping attitude here and there. Super deals sell within hours here if buyer and seller know one another. In this kind of sale there is no time for such thing as repeated vettings involving dozens of radiographs and several opinions to come from vets who are terrified of their sue-happy clients and liability claims.
I don't say the 'European way' is any better or cheating would not exist here and all is rosy - as someone so rightly said there are jerks all over the world. But to assume that for Americans overseas-horse shopping generally means to be ripped off is just as naive as to assume the opposite http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PineTreeFarm

Dec. 18, 2004, 01:47 PM

This is an interesting discussion and the letter is very good.I'm not a breeder or a trainer. I do own and show Hunter/Jumpers.

As a general question, what group are you trying to use as a marketplace? Is it the GP jumpers, 3'6" and above Hunters or the Adult/Childrens Hunters?

In my zone there are twice as many adult/childrens Hunters with points as there are in the 3'6" and above divisions. I took a look at the breed information for the top 30 horses in Childrens/Adults. Here's how it breaks down.

29 Horses list a breed but of those only 9 list the sire and dam. 2 list the sire. So I'm thinking that the breed disgnation is a guess based on a brand or a lip tattoo. Of the 3 horses that list the breeder 2 are TB's, 1 Warmblood.
Of the 29 that listed a breed 9 are TB's 2 are QH and the rest are some flavor of Warmblood ( in fact 2 are listed as 'Warmblood').
Of the nine that listed sire and dam 4 are Tb's or TB cross,the rest are Warmbloods.
So from looking at the stats I think it's safe to assume these horses were not purchased based on parentage as that's Unknown.
More likely they were selected based on jumping ability, soundness, being quiet and possibly the breed disgnation ( but that looks like it was a guess). If it was used as a factor at all, parentage would have to be pretty far down the line.
This situation is not as true when looking at Jumpers and higher level Hunters although the results are similar in Children/Adult jumpers.
Here's the thing: Hunter Jumper is not a breed division unlike Saddlebreds or Morgans so Warmbloods are not the only game in town.

How will you convince the bulk of the market that your warmblood is better bred to do the job when the information to support you isn't there?

I agree with another poster who was concerned about costs for supporting the warmblood breeders being passed along to all exhibitors.

So what market are you looking for??

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 18, 2004, 02:39 PM

Breeders are looking for people to buy entry level, and young prospect horses. Breeders have the ability to make good crosses, and bring along youngsters to be good citizens, healthy & sound, with the raw talent. Like in industry, we can't be good at all things, so the youngsters need to move along to the next level of the "assembly line".

We believe that when the data is there, and riders/trainers hear the names again, and again, they will have more confidence purchasing youngsters based on bloodlines before their talent is proven. At the moment, whenever you hear a horse is by Alla Czar or All the Gold, it would draw a prospective purchaser's interest because the data is there to support the confidence, thanks to the IHF. When a trainer hears a sire or bloodline again and again, they will begin to seek out those horses.

To succeed in business, each unit needs to specialize in a part of getting the finished product to the end user. Strawberries are grown by the farmer, then the canner makes them into jam. Then the shipper delivers them to the retail store, and the store finally gets them to the end user.

Just like speculating in the stock market, taking risks can offer the opportunity for huge profits. Education (about bloodlines) can give the investor (trainer/owner/rider & breeder) the tools they need to succeed.

Laurie@CBF

Dec. 18, 2004, 04:46 PM

Bugs - I have to agree with Kareen a lot here. I was in Germany for two weeks in October. Every single breeder we visited had another job or farming activity that supported the farm. Many raised pigs. It became kind of a fun task to find out where the pigs were on each farm (without letting the breeder know we were looking for them). Those that didn't raise pigs did other types of farming like raising sugar beets, sorghum etc. Even the breeder who bred Salinero (Anky's Olympic champion) raises pigs to support his horse "hobby".

What Germany has over us is different registries who have systematic evaluations of their breeding stock with specific goals for performance horses. Unfortunately in NA - breeders can just do their own thing.

Anyone in the US can hang out a trainers shingle - which is not the case in Germany. They must go through years of training and exams to get qualified. While the European breeders don't have to go through "training" they do have a young breeders program where lots of the young people get a good education on showing and judging sporthorses. There are also numerous events every year where they can get together to see the best of the best. For example the stallion shows, licensing's, Stallion performance tests, young horse classes/championships etc.

In NA things are so spread out that even with awesome registry support it is hard to get everyone together at one time http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

Getting data from the NA bred horses would be a big help for NA sporthorse breeders - stop me now before I get on my soapbox http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

showjumpers66

Dec. 18, 2004, 05:28 PM

I think once we have a good tracking system in place with a single lifetime number for every horse, it will all fall into place. With this, the trainers and riders can see which bloodlines are winning for them. It will be in black and white. So, if you have two equal horses, they will be more likely to choose the horse with the pedigree to go to the top.

Now, bloodlines are not important to them, but they are more important then they realize. I have probed about bloodlines for many of the local top jumpers. The Ramiros and Capitols are out there in huge numbers. SHOWING the riders and trainers the importance of bloodlines will work so much better than TELLING them that they are important. Just being able to identify the pedigrees would make all the difference in the world.

Trying to research Landwerder's offspring has been difficult. Landwerder has been shown under three different names and he has foals sired under all three names. His foals' names have been changed and are being shown under a different name than the one that they were registered under. This would have not happened in Germany as they are tracked. Hopefully this problem can be fixed in the US.

Bugs-n-Frodo

Dec. 18, 2004, 05:36 PM

Kareen and Laurie, thanks for answering my question, it was a serious question. I do have another. What is the government involvement (as far as the equestrian community), if any, in Germany?

Laurie, ok, so if the Germans are able to do other farming to supplement their horse business, theoretically, we could do it as well. The problem is that land is becoming more and more scarce. I live in Maryland, and there used to LOTS of nice farms in my area. Nowadays, that is not so. The McMansions are sprouting up everywhere, and cutting back severely on our farm land. You have to have a decent amount of land to have horses and the capabilities to farm other things as well. The development of land is driving up the cost of land as a whole, and taking a toll on our agriculture. Why is it that everything has to be so stinkin' big here? (As in the houses) Is Germany developing land like we are?? Look at California for instance, I was going to move there a few years ago. I wnet out ot Cali to check out their farms to board Bugs. There are VERY few farms out there who have land for turnout. The horses are usually in 12x12 or 14x14 pipe corrals. Why? Because land is so expensive. It is true that if you don't have a lot of money, buying land is next to impossible. In places where land is affordable, the only option you have is farming/agriculture because there is NOTHING else there.

I agree that they have been programs for bringing up youngsters and breeding. We need more programs for our young up and coming riders, we all know that. I understand that we are so spread out that it is difficult to hold young horse Championships/licensing/shows but somehow we need to change that. I will stand by what my friend said about the general public being more supportive. She has made that observation every time she has been to the states. Here, football is the sport of the general population. I am not naive enough to think that we can make this sport more important or more well known to the general population than football, but we do need to make folks more aware. The reason football is so successful, is because the general population is willing to spend their cash to support it.

Even if we just being with supporting agriculture, there needs to be a change here in the states. Look at Maryland racing for a good example of what will happen if people remain uneducated about the industry.

Is there a way to have maybe 2 breeders organizations? One for the east and one for the west? Or, I guess, essentially, one organization that has two sections. That one organization would make decisions for both sections. So, there would be breeders championships/test etc for both the east and the west, then the top performers of each would them compete again each other. Just a thought.

How do they go about getting the interest of others??? We all know about the big sales and championships they have there, how can we do that here?

Sorry for my fractured thoughts here, I have so many things running around in my head that it is difficult to organize what I am trying to say.

eurofoal

Dec. 18, 2004, 07:24 PM

I'll don my flame suit and venture an opinion... I think that breeders need to educate themselves more-- set their sights higher and evaluate thier own stock with, ah, how shall I say this... a little less optimism. But, also, buyers (esp of young horses) shouldn't be scared off by the discription of a horse as "amateur mount" or "good gaits" rather than "FEI potential" and "fantastic gaits". The buyers ALL seem to want Olympic caliber mounts at McMount prices. Around here, and prob everywhere else, too, it often seems like he who has the best sales pitch wins. I'm not always sure that my buyers can see what I see, and I can shoot myself in the foot by telling them so. Been there, done that, and likely to do it over and over again!

Also, a quick glance at the other bb's will show how discouraging most people are of the idea of buying young horses. Whoever has the young foal to bring up to riding age is taking some kind of a gamble. Here, the top end payoff seems lower, the middle to high end often overinflated. In other words, everybody with a 4yr old wants to recoup their expenses on it. Whether the horse is worth 2K or maybe 200K, it still has a 15-25K price tag on it. The fact is, very few Americans even SELL the promising 4yr olds, much less at a reasonable price-- they are the true rarities.

I can't picture ANYBODY paying the His Highness price here in the USA, even if the he was magically transported into a USA bred. But, look at the auction results in Europe and note that plenty of broke, hand picked 3yr olds sell for well under 15K.

Wow, that was long. Does it make any sense at all?

Trakehners2000

Dec. 18, 2004, 09:45 PM

I know of a magnificent steel greay warmblood gelding, imported from Germany after a long and drawn out search...
Guess what his little hitch is ? He explodes / comes unglued when you dismount http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif No training has worked on him yet. How sick the importers of this horse must be. I imagine the owners could have found a much nicer 5 y.o. here

Laurie@CBF

Dec. 18, 2004, 10:17 PM

My answer is build it and they will come. Young Horse championships and Futurities will showcase the cream of the crop. Get some prize money worth winning - and they will be a huge success. There are already success stories of horses who have gone on to the top GP ranks after starting out in the YJC's.

I think someone else said this earlier - but just look what the IHF has done for the offspring of the stallions Alla Czar and All the Gold. These two stallions have some pretty hefty stud fees. People are willing to pay the high stud fees - and decent $$ for the offspring because they reliably perform at the top of their game.

Bugs - for a few minutes my friends and I thought about coming home and raising pigs - but then realized that the market wouldn't be there http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif. I'll stick with my day job to support my passion.

Americans are innnovative. I don't think that we can replicate the European system. That said if USEF can give us half a chance in getting ONE number NA breeders offspring can become much more "marketable".

Trakehners2000

Dec. 19, 2004, 06:22 AM

I agree with Laurie 100% We will show/ market with our Trakehner more towards the Arabian A shows, mainly because of the wonderful programs AHA has. And we feel we get the most for our membership dues from AHA. They set a great example for other organizations to follow. The Sweepstakes program being one of them. The people that I know that make the most money with their horses are my friends who do cutting and Team Penning. They often come back from a weekend with 9,000 just from competing. And their horses typically sell from 7-9k for an average competition horse. Very often my friend sells his better horses for 23-33,000. And I have to say he sells more of these than the Sporthorse breeders seem to sell their horses. The stud fee on some of the top 'cow horse' type stallions is $10,000. Average price is 2500 to 3500 for a good one. The average size of these horses is from 13.3h to 14.3h with a 15h horse being considered big. They think my 15.2+ hand Trakehner is huge!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifI think he is perfect. I love boarding with cow horse type folks. Very down to earth, horses are practical. I can join in on the cattle sorting with my 4 y.o Trakehner stallion, many folks would be amazed to see how the Trakehner is in this environment. He sleeps while he waits his turn at cattle with horses and cows running around him and mares right next to him. yep. we have a lot we could learn from the cattle horse people to, not just with money and marketing, but with teaching our horses basic things, like it is okay to stand still for 1/2 an hour. jmho http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Edgewood

Dec. 19, 2004, 06:43 AM

To go back to the comment on doing other farming activities in addition to raising horses. It is very difficult here in the US. My husband and his family have been farming for 200+ years. Currently, my husband and his father farm 225 acres. We have just recently moved to crop farming only from crop and dairy (talk about labor intensive). As my husband puts it, the land prices keep rising, yet the amount he gets paid for crops (and milk) is not much different than his father got paid in 1960 (when everything else was a lot cheaper).

My husband's father put 3 children through college (with a stay at home mother who never worked) on his farmer's salary. In today's world, my husband could never afford to do that. He says it is because the US government keeps the supply very high on grain (large grain reserves - instead of selling it worldwide) and artificially lowers the price of the grain and milk.

So, without my job working for a pharmaceutical company, we could not afford to have the $ it takes to support and promote the horses (5) that I currently have.

Maybe the farming environment is different in GE, but here in the US, very few farmers are doing well and the majority are highly leveraged.

So here in the US, I don't think that we could go to farming using other livestock/crops for our second income to support the "hobby" of breeding.

STF

Dec. 19, 2004, 10:34 AM

I would love for someone to sit down and look at a P&L statement per horse on what it takes to bring one into the world. The next time someone bitches about paying 15-20K for a 3-4 yr old here in the states, needs to sit and do some realistic numbers and get their head out of their butt!!! What?! Are we supposed to "give" them away at cost? Ummm, I dont think so, nor is that smart business practice for anyone who wants to KEEP a business running! Im not talking rip people off, but we have to make a profit and I can promise you the margin is not as great as you think once you have applied all direct and indirect costs!! Grrrrrr!!

I serach alot of sites in North America for quality bloodlines and offspring and there are some very nice ones out there. GRANTED...yes, there are some that are over priced, but there are many who are not.

I find many young horses, 2 and 3 yr olds under 15K. Well go look into Europe and yes, you can find the price a bit cheaper but after you pay for Import/CEM and shipping to your barn, did you really save a huge amount of money?!? Think about it!

Now, I will say I do think the training in the states could improve, but that is where the owners and buyers need to look around and take the responsibility to pick the right person for thier horses training. So many times I see nice horses go to people who have no buinsess starting horses or have the background to bring one along becuase the owner is cutting corners on training cost. Is that smart?! Nope!!

So I think American breeders that ARE trying to improve quality (and you have to admit it has gotten tons better in the last 10 years) are still getting the cold shoulder becuase the American buyer has the wrong mind set.

One thing I dont think we have here in the states is a network. Im not sure how to even offer to fix that as there are so many different things that come out on the table. Yet, if people could have "breeders/sales" in front of them. But I do have to say that some people are so biased that they think.....eeeeeewwwwwwwwwww, we cant buy in America!!! Eeeeeeeeewwwwwwwww!!!

How do you fix that! LOL

LaNet

Laurie@CBF

Dec. 19, 2004, 10:57 AM

STF - people in Germany do not expect to break even or make money on every foal. They are a lot more realistic about what they have on the ground. Yes they will try to make money on the top ones - but they won't keep putting good money into an individual that is only mediocre. They will cut their losses and sell it cheaply as a weekend pleasure horse.

This is something that we in NA need to assimilate. NOT every young horse is worth what we have into it.

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 19, 2004, 11:16 AM

That is true. Europeans are willing to sell a lesser quality youngster for less than cost, BUT they CAN make up the profit by selling really nice ones for good money. Europeans, (and Americans shopping there) will pay bucks for a really super one. Here, NO ONE will pay big bucks for a super prospect. 55,000 Euros for a super foal? Just not happening here, no matter what the quality.

We do need a way to get the nice prospects in front of the people that are buying without them running all over the country looking at who knows what. By having our own Association to represent us? and by breaking it up into regions to create training, and sales programs?

STF

Dec. 19, 2004, 11:38 AM

So are you saying that America breeders put a high price taq on everything they breed cuz they can?? If so, I dont agree with that at all!!

I have foals here from 5K to 12K (same age) depending based upon quality and bloodlines.

Not everyone is trying to rip people off....and there are some breeders out there with a heart who know what they have and what they dont in quality. Its also important that the buyers educate themselves on what they are looking at! I dont see that much. Gosh, just last week I had a woman come out and was total loss of anything I was talking about in regards to bloodlines. She just wanted a "big black horse!" Go figure!!?!

Even in Europe, a horse is what ever someone will pay for it. I dont know why everyone is bashing europe and/or americans because there are crooked horse people all over the world.

blueboo

Dec. 19, 2004, 01:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Laurie@CBF:
They are a lot more realistic about what they have on the ground. Yes they will try to make money on the top ones - but they won't keep putting good money into an individual that is only mediocre. They will cut their losses and sell it cheaply as a weekend pleasure horse.

This is something that we in NA need to assimilate. NOT every young horse is worth what we have into it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

More that, but to semi-resurect a thread that died a sudden death a week or so ago, is it not true that if the european breeders have a horse (or horses) that ARE NOT producing at least a minimum of what they're looking for, they not only sell it quickly, but most often, for all intents and purposes ensure that it doesn't continue to reproduce by eliminating it from the gene pool? NOT to say that Americans (myself included) should, would, or could ever, promote the use of lesser quality horses as a food source - but seriously, if you have a filly/ mare (and I say mares because hopefully any responsible http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif breeder will geld lesser quality colts) that isn't top, or even mediocre quality, what do you do with her? Keep her forever to absolutely ensure that she doesn't ever breed? Go through the hassle and expense of 'spaying' her? I don't think so. You sell her. And the odds are fair to excellent that somewhere down the line she'll end up producing at least one foal to add to the (most probable) poor to mediocre equine population. And I'm sorry, but no one will ever convice me that EVERY filly born and sold is A-1, Top Of The Line, 'I Sure Want A Bunch Of Carbon Copies Of This One', quality.

Ok, I have my asbestos bloomers on now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

van

Dec. 19, 2004, 01:23 PM

I am coming from the perspective of a trainer that buys a lot of investment horses, age 4 to 6, as well as oversees a private operation that includes a breeding division. We do end up importing quite a few horses, but not without trying to find them here first! We would much prefer to keep our dollars here (especially with the recent exchange rates), but there are reasons why it continues to make sense for us to import horses from Europe despite the strong Euro, and import costs.

As already touched on, one of our difficulties is getting an accurate description of American bred horses abilities and potential. My most recent example is this... While surfing the web, I happened upon a breeding operation that had conformation shots of several 3 to 5 year olds that were under saddle. Two of them were quite beautiful, and the bloodlines were all impressive (and yes, I do have knowledge of bloodlines, and opinions on them). Of course, when looking for re-sale youngsters, the bloodlines are not a deciding factor, but none the less, they always interest me. I got in touch with the people, and asked them about the 2 horses that had perked my interest. I was told that one was a top hunter prospect with the movement, mental capacity, and style at the jumps to go all the way. The other one (that was actually prettier), I was told would not make it in the hunter ring as he had a tendency to be quite hot, but that he had all the scope in the world and definitely had Grand Prix potential. This information gave me hope, as it seemed as though they were being objective, and weren't trying to tell me that they would both be perfect hunters (I prefer to have hunter types for re-sale). Then I got the video... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

The "hunter type" was tense, moved like a foundered pony, and jumped badly over his shoulder... he was priced at $45,000!! The horse with "Grand Prix" potential ran at the jumps, hung his legs, twisted his hind end, and had NO scope at all... he was priced at $65,000!! Now, obviously I am willing to spend good money on a quality young horse, but it is soooo discouraging when I receive these kinds of tapes (and don't even get me started on how the tape was formatted!!) over and over from American breeders. When my contacts in Europe tell me I am going to look at a super typey, good moving, lofty jumping hunter type, it is exactly that. When they tell me I am going to look at a pleasant amateur type that is uncomplicated and quiet with a cute jump, that is what I see. They just have a better idea of what their horses abilities are, and are not!

The other already mentioned bu very important factor is the cost. I know that geography makes a huge difference as to the cost of raising youngsters, but if you are going into the breeding business, that should be taken into account. I can tell you that we can raise a youngster to 4 years of age, have it broke, and jumping little jumps for less than $8,000 barring any medical disasters. How? Well, for starters, our customers grow their own hay. They also have a staff (my husband and I included), that handles every aspect of the horses care other than major medical... we have a farrier, people that do the ground work and break them,people that can show and campaign the nicer ones, etc on salary. We are brutally honest with each other about which ones get culled early to pleasure homes, and which ones make it to the shows. Some we lose money on, some we break even on, and some we make a lot on, but every person that comes shopping feels like the horses are well represented, and fairly priced. We feel lucky if 1 or 2 babies a year out of a crop of 8 to 10 make it to the A shows in professional divisions with us. Most of the show horses are imports because that is where we were able to find horses that had the ability for the big divisions, the experience for our Amateur rider, or the raw talent necessary for our re-sale projects.

Sorry the post was so long, I can't seem to organize thoughts concisely, but please know that we are looking for the American breeders to forge alliances with so that we can proudly say to people that our Show string is American!!
We have a trip planned to our Washington state breeders after Indio, and hopefully the American partnerships can start there, but be forewarned about the accurate representation, and fair pricing now!!

Vanessa Brown
www.derbyhillfarm.com (http://www.derbyhillfarm.com)

Bugs-n-Frodo

Dec. 19, 2004, 01:28 PM

FHC, that is exactly what I am saying. By having ONE association that governs 2 or even 4 regions, (east and west, or north, south, east, west) that creates a program for breeding, training and sales. As far as breeding goes, take the best of the best, from each region's evaluations and shows, and bring them together for an annual championship and sale. (Something along those lines.) I do think that US breeders have been improving quality over the years, but so many buyers and their trainers have gotten it into their heads that the only way to buy a quality horse, is to shop across the pond.

Also, what is the goal here? Are breeders trying to breed for ami horses, or professional horses? I believe most are breeding for the ami horse, since the market is better there... obviously. With that in mind, how many professional horses do we actually turn out? Is that the difference? Are we not producing as much International quality because the market is fewer and farther between? Should we think about prodcuing more International quality horses in order to earn more respect for our breeding? One thing that is missing from our breeding programs is ONE registry, for American bred WBs. I know we have AWR and AWS, but how many people breed to get an American WB? We breed to get a Dutch WB, or an Old, or a Trake and the American WB comes secondary. I think that is one our biggest problems. Canada has their own WB registry, and just recently, many people have checked it out and been very impressed. Then, of course, there are the German, Dutch, Swedish and the list goes on... How did they go about earning such respect? How can we do the same?

I am just learning this guys, so please don't get to impatient with my questions, even though they may seem obvious to you.

van

Dec. 19, 2004, 01:43 PM

Oh, one more subject I forgot to touch on... PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE breed for excellence... enough "Amateur" type horses will come from it... trust me! Look at the figures I gave on our customers foal crops... we are trying to improve those of course, but those are statistics taken from a program that DOES breed for excellence! In Europe, there are plenty of those "Ami" types coming from the most incredible bloodlines... every one of our imports is bred beautifully, but obviously (except for our Jumpers), they were failures in their breeding system!

Vanessa Brown
www.derbyhillfarm.com (http://www.derbyhillfarm.com)

blueboo

Dec. 19, 2004, 01:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by van:
Oh, one more subject I forgot to touch on... PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE breed for excellence... enough "Amateur" type horses will come from it... trust me! Look at the figures I gave on our customers foal crops... we are trying to improve those of course, but those are statistics taken from a program that DOES breed for excellence! In Europe, there are plenty of those "Ami" types coming from the most incredible bloodlines... every one of our imports is bred beautifully, but obviously (except for our Jumpers), they were failures in their breeding system!
Vanessa Brown
http://www.derbyhillfarm.com <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point exactly - and the one's that don't get sold overseas end up where? Not being re-bred that's for sure.

STF

Dec. 19, 2004, 04:29 PM

I agree on the top quality breeding, but honestly I dont see how you can say you can sell one for 7-8K??!

We own our own farm, we make our own hay, but there are still costs involved as I will explain my point of view:

Average DIRECT costs summary: (example on the low $$$ side)

Top Quality Stud Fee - $2,000
AI Vet costs - $800
Year of mare care - $1,600 (shots, quality feeds, hay, wormings, farrier, etc)
Weanling Care - $800 (shots, feed, hay, wormings, farrier)
Yearling Care - $900 (Shots, feed, hay, wormings, farrier)
Two year old Care - $1,000 (shots, feed, hay, wormings, farrier)
Three Year Old Care - $1,000 (shots feed, hay, wormings, farrier)

Total DIRECT costs of a 3 yr old - $8,100

Then if you add in costs that is part of bringing up this foal (Indirect Costs) such as:

HAY-
WHAT it takes to MAKE hay.....fertializers, irrigation costs, fuel for tractor, tractor repair, etc

FARM COSTS -
Upkeep of fences, waters, turn outs, eletrical etc. Those costs add up after time, trust me!!

TAXES and LEGAL expense -
These cant be forgot as breeders would not have these costs if we did not have the business.

LABOR-
If you have to pay for farm help, that can be a huge expense, if not a majority.

Another direct costs to be considred is:

TRAINING COSTS -
If you train or if you send out there are still costs involved. If your a pro trainer and working with your horse, even if it belongs to you its still time you could be working with a client horse and billing for the hours on a client horse. In short, time is money even if it is on your horse or someone elses.

These costs HAVE to be divided out to get a realistic value of what you have put into a young horse. Every business has a Overhead and Burden which I dont think people are taking in consideration!??! Not to mention if you take the time to travel and show this youngster. Remember again here, a pro may not have "out of pocket" costs other than show fees, but you could also have a clients horse going and be billing for those hours.

So, who ever can sell a 3-4 yr old for 7-8K, more power to you, but I have a feeling the indirect costs are being left out by far as well as any O&B factors.

van

Dec. 19, 2004, 04:44 PM

My clients have their own stallion, so that takes care of stud fees most of the time, although they do a couple of outside breedings a year. They also sell a good portion of the hay which takes care of the costs of growing it. Farm maintenance is not solely shifted on the foals' backs to carry, and neither are many of the salary costs. They have over 50 horses, and the majority of the operating money is recouped by the Show Horse sales, and investing in promising resale projects. Fortunately, the jumpers are quite successful, and generally pay their way at the shows (not true for the hunters of course... who could pay their way with the "prize money" offered in the hunters today?! I think that their operation is a good example of a wide based farm that does not need to inflate youngsters prices to get back what they have into them... like I said, some they lose money on, most they break even or make some money on, and a couple they make very good money on. It is unfair to buyers to price horses according to what owners have into them as opposed to what they are worth. If we were to do that after they started campaigning, imagine what you would be paying for an average 1st Year Green horse!!!

Laurie@CBF

Dec. 19, 2004, 04:45 PM

Van,

Thank you for looking here first. Things will continue to improve here on the issues that you mention.

Bugs - I don't think we need another national association. We need the current multitude of organizations we belong to already to get up to par with what is going on in Europe. Once we get a universal ID number that is associated with the breeders names - the blinders will be off and those that are breeding good quality horses will have a chance at success. Regional breeders groups will probably hold the most value in the near future.

To the above poster who mentioned culling mares - that was a topic in our most recent AHS magazine. There are some mares (even with great pedigrees) that should not be bred. Sometimes it is a conformation/movement issue, and sometimes it is a temperament issue.

Trakehners2000

Dec. 19, 2004, 04:50 PM

We found a foal online, knew we wanted him, knew the going rate for him was really 8-12k. Breeder had breed specifically for black fillies to this black stallion. She got some bay and chestnut colts. This breeder had the colts listed for between 6-8k because she didn't really want the colts, just fillies. We arrived quite excited to finally find our dream.
She knew our sincerity, we had a $500. down payment with a promise to pay the balance by the end of the month. This breeder accepted our offer of $4500.00 for this colt pre-weaning, as a three month old. We paid as planned and collected the colt as soon as he was weaned. Here we are happy as can be nearly five years later still are happy with our horse and she is happy we have him, as she knows we love him dearly and he has a good home. His brother, same foal crop is still there. He is coming five now too, the others from that crop all sold. To me this breeder was wise, she knew we were sincere, she could have refused and held out for more money. Heck, she could have held out for 8k or 12k. Though to me she is wise to be flexible in price. 3 days after weaning that foal was with us and her costs and potential vet expenses were
gone and she had $4500.00 I'm sure she had more as she sold probably five of those colts that autumn. My point is that maybe some breeders are too inflexible on prices. If you are hanging onto that horse until it is three or five, maybe you should try to sell it sooner.

STF

Dec. 19, 2004, 05:15 PM

Van, it seems that your company is doing very well and that can be highly appreciated. Congrads as an accountant who has done work for many different farms, I can tell you that you are one in a few.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> They also sell a good portion of the hay which takes care of the costs of growing it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You still have to take account for what you use or you dont have a realistic figure as what you use, you could have sold and made more profit. If the horse eats it, its an outgoing costs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Farm maintenance is not solely shifted on the foals' backs to carry, and neither are many of the salary costs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No.....its NOT solely on their backs, that is not how Overhead and Burden works, its a average % based upon total number of horses on property. Yet, each horse will have a % of O&B as they are part of farm costs based upon past verified expenses.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>It is unfair to buyers to price horses according to what owners have into them as opposed to what they are worth. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not in any way was I saying that. Im saying that I feel that people want us to take a negative hit on the quality youngsters we DO have. As I said in a previous post, not all breeders are out to rip people off....we know what we have and what we dont.

I just think people are getting unrealistic views of the true costs of what it takes to run a farm, breed and raise horses here in North America.

I hope you continue to keep looking in North America and that others take the first step to look around here too before going to Europe. I also hope that other breeders can have reasonable prices on thier young stock so the potential buyer is not scared off.

Trakehners2000

Dec. 19, 2004, 05:19 PM

I know this may be off topic,
though I personally know of several dressage riders that have sold their EuroWarmbloods to purchase draft-crosses. I'm sure many of you would think this odd, though they feel they get a more dependable horse. In fact I attended a Championship show this Oct...the high score horse was a Draft-Cross.

On the other side of that: I also know of some dressage riders selling off their warmbloods to buy smaller horses. One woman sold her phenominal Abdullah son, a highly trained horse, to a Florida home, because she was ready to downsize, to an Andalusian. I'm just saying that maybe you should ask people what they want, asking which way they are buying.

And I have to agree that the "BUILD IT + THEY WILL COME" is exactly right.. you should look at how hard people fought the Arabian Sporthorse Nationals, saying no one would come!
Arabian Sporthorse Nationals just had a great second year. Many people in AHA fought the idea of Arabian Sporthorse Nationals, though AHA wisely BUILT IT and they came. Look at the other post I made in regards to cattle horses. The championships with huge purses is there, and the riders came. Where I board my stallion, the trainer/owner is ranked 3rd in the world for team penning, he competes against HUNDREDS of teams, and wins thousands of dollars every year. What if we had the purses $$$,$$$ in America for Sporthorses~ Personally I think a centrally located championship with big purses would do the trickhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gifIt is because of the huge purses that many cutting/penning sires command a hefty stud fee of $10,000.- $3500 I don't see even Olympic stallions commanding this fee. Also other breeds such as Arabians have twice the stud fee of Olympic champions, why? You have the chance to win $$$$$ with their offspring. THis may or may not be of interest to sporthorses breeders.

jumpgirl

Dec. 19, 2004, 05:28 PM

geesh, I don't know what stillpoint's problem is. Maybe he/she is a "stupid american" that got taken. I don't think anywhere in my post, I stated that going to europe was a fairyland shopping experience. You still have to know your stuff. Apparently stillpoint doesn't.

The europeans have a very competitve market, perhaps more than here because of one big reason: sheer size. The europeans know that you can go a couple of miles down the road and see 20 more horses with similar breeding, similar quality and similar training. They walk a fine line when dealing with buyers because of that. In America, you have to spend a small fortune to fly to see 1 or 2 horses and if they don't work out, you go home, only to plan how much you are going to spend on the next flight to a different farm to see only 1 or 2 horses.

Yes, there are crooks everywhere and in every industry.

Also, it makes me so sad to see american breeders moaning to the market about "buy American". Then you ask what registry their "homebred" is and they say some european registry. American warmblood breeders live in glass houses.

STF

Dec. 19, 2004, 05:35 PM

Jumpergirl,
You do have a point, mostly on the flying around looking at horses, etc. That alone is a pain the butt. As when you fly 1000 miles to see a hrose is not what you were told it was etc. It would be nice to have something the size of Europe to go look around, but were not.

Like Amy said, it would be good to have sectioned out parts of America, but that aint gona happen either.

What do we do?!? But I do beleive that the quality of horses offered here in North America has really improved. I was one of those people who recently has discoved Canada and was very impressed. And there are some breeders here in NA that I really like too. Its coming together we just need a better network.

Trakehners2000

Dec. 19, 2004, 05:36 PM

The size of the country is a factor that many people forget JumpGirl. Good Point. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Bugs-n-Frodo

Dec. 19, 2004, 08:02 PM

STF, besides the assigned universal ID numbers, how do we go about creating a better network? I am just trying to kind of brain storm on this, though I am still learning. This is a good discussion.

eurofoal

Dec. 19, 2004, 08:04 PM

STF, I know and suffer from the P & L farm statements. They are dismal! However, I have to go with Laurie and Fairview on this. The sad, depressing reality is that you can't recoup your costs on all your horses all of the time.

As a breeder, I feel that THIS 15K weanling, (Priced that way because it's nearly perfect in every way), is supporting the mystery lameness on THAT 3yr old, the dystocia delivery on mom's last foal, AND the feed, farrier and associated farm costs.

However, the half brother to the nice one is plain, a bad mover, and can't jump a piece of straw. Bad luck there, better luck next time... the number two colt might not be worth half of what you've got into him.

I just don't think that you can price a horse on what you've got into it-- you've got to price him according to what his attributes/liabilities are in your market. Anyone (I'm NOT pointing fingers, this is a hypothetical farm/horse/owner) who overprices a horse is going to have to do some pretty smooth sales work to get the horse sold at that price... and, that goes right back to the points that Laurie, Fairview and I are making... they're not all Grand Prix potential horses. We're shooting ourselves in the foot by misrepesenting either the talent or the quality. It costs us all credibility. I hear over and over how buyers beat the bushes to find the horse they're looking for, and, after an exhausting search featuring many overpriced/misrepresented horses, go to Europe.

The sad part is, though, that I think the good ones being bred here are still fighting the handicap. We are improving, the bar is being raised. Soon, if not already, we will have enough good horses produced in the USA that the tides will turn. It's pretty unanimously agreed that our breeding programs are on par with Europe, but that 25/50/25% ratio of genetic improvement means that accurate representation of these horses is going to be even more crucial to our success. As Laurie said, you have to know if you've got a GP prospect or weekend pleasure horse.

STF

Dec. 19, 2004, 08:26 PM

Jill,
Im not saying every horse we have has to be set at a "cost" price as some cant for many reasons for one reason or another. But it seems that buyers still want to talk down the prices even on our NICE bred and really decent horses. That would be like me calling and saying..."Jill, I want that black Roptson filly, but I think she is only worth 8K, not 12K.."
Umm, you would laugh at me, would you not?? LOL

Im a small breeder and a buyer....and the farm is not our money maker by far, but it would be nice to have the really nice ones be respected, know what I mean?!?

As a Accountant I try to cut farm costs as much as I can, but its hard if you want quality feed and care, etc. I know, I know....one out of 10 we breed are nice, 1 out of 20 are really nice and 1 out of 50 (or if ever) are super....

Just like I have one colt this year that even with nice breeding is not what I was hoping for. Will I take a hit, yup....but will I over price him, nope! Could I be totally wrong about him!? Sheeze, maybe?!?!
So....his price tag is lower than the rest. Now, I have another filly that Im very happy about and her price reflects that too. But even then for her bloodlines and overall package Im much lower than a lot of horses in North America. Last thing Im trying to do is rip people off. Im very logical as Im not only a breeder but I buy too....plus Im honest, which sucks in this business. I could do much better if I were crooked I think! LMAO

Amy....I have no idea where to start that. Ive been looking for years and its frustarting. Even now I find website of nice bred horses I did not know about before. I wish there were ONE website to look at all the horses in North America, but thats asking a bit much! LOL

I want a search database that I can put in everything I want and.....AND know that what the breeder/owner listed is the truth and not "what they want the horse to be"...LOL

Im dreaming.....but sounds really good!!! LOL

My trainer told me once...."Horses find you, you dont find them"....

Hummmmmm!

Laurie@CBF

Dec. 19, 2004, 08:48 PM

The USEF has a top breeders list. If they ever updated it - it would be very worthwhile. This list ranks the breeders with respect to their offsprings points won in a specific discipline.

This in time will become a really valuable resource as it will acknowledge the people who put those successful horses on the ground. IF it was updated buyers could easily use it to start their searches.

As for the poster pointing out that people are selling their WB's for draft crosses and Iberian horses - it is because people bought more horse than they could handle - and now are afraid to ride them. Time and time again I see people who want the big gaits instead of the fabulous temperament w/ moderate gaits. Their are plenty of very amateur friendly WB's out there that have more moderate gaits (easier to ride) - but not all people are smart enough to know what is good for them http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

eurofoal

Dec. 19, 2004, 09:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by STF:
Jill,
Im not saying every horse we have has to be set at a "cost" price as some cant for many reasons for one reason or another. But it seems that buyers still want to talk down the prices even on our NICE bred and really decent horses. That would be like me calling and saying..."Jill, I want that black Roptson filly, but I think she is only worth 8K, not 12K.."
Umm, you would laugh at me, would you not?? LOL

Im a small breeder and a buyer....and the farm is not our money maker by far, but it would be nice to have the really nice ones be respected, know what I mean?!?
I want a search database that I can put in everything I want and.....AND know that what the breeder/owner listed is the truth and not "what they want the horse to be"...LOL

....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't agree with you more. Thanks for the clarification. And, yes, people offer me less all the time. I listen to what they say but try never to be offended, I simply say "Sorry, I just can't go that low," or "My price is firm".

In fact, that Rotspon filly recently had a would-be purchaser who looked at some nearby young horses, heard about mine at "about the same price" and came to look. She liked what she saw and we plugged along with the sale, only to discover, egads, her husband noticed that my web site says the horse is more than those horses down the street. Now, this lady looked at and referenced the web site over and over again. My price was no secret!

My feeling was that it was an honest mistake, but I've added that to the list of just about everything to get the prices down down down. I am of the mind-set that I price fairly but I always like to hear what the buyer has to say, too, because I can be motivated by many reasons unrelated to quality to sell a horse. However...The filly stays!

elly

Dec. 20, 2004, 05:55 AM

Hi

I just returned from a short weekend trip to Germany during which I visited a good friend who is a very well known breeder. Walking through his barns he was able to show me almost 100 horses, from weanling to horses under saddle. Yes, he has a few exceptional ones, but so DO WE !!

What makes him different from many of the US breeders is, that he is willing to let go of the average horses for average or below average prices. He is very realistic about which horse will put his name as a breeder into the Jahrbuch ( yearbook) and which will get him Zuechterpraemie ( a small, but significant amount of money given to the breeder from the money his horse earns under his rider at shows) I read, that one lady breeder earned over 200.000 Euro this year through one jumper she bred. Considering, that in most US show programs the breeders are not even listed .......

I have said this before and will say it again - pick the best horse you have in your barn and make it available to the best rider you know - work out some kind of arrangement from which all of you, mostly your horse will benefit.

The more success our US bred horses have, the more riders will be interested in buying them.

Happy Holidays

Elly

Trakehners2000

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:31 AM

Hi Laurie,
The move of people going to draft crosses is bigger than you think. There are many phenominal draft crosses out there. Our favorite is the Georgian Grande. It is a huge movement, people love this cross, it is a great breed, yes it is new, all breeds started somewhere- though it is great and people are in love with them.

The Georgian Grande is a very young breed, though I can tell you their popularity is increasing by leaps and bounds. People LOVE this breed, and I predict they will be totally off the charts soon, winning so much that it will be hard to ignore them.

I know everyone says they are not warmbloods, and that is fine because you know what, it really doesnt seem to matter to the people who own! They love them are thrilled with them. It is hard to ignore such happy owners and successful riders, especially from a budding breed. We are extremely proud of our Georgian Grande. They are wonderful and beautiful horses. Check them out at 

www.georgiangrande.com (http://www.georgiangrande.com)

Kareen

Dec. 20, 2004, 07:32 AM

I think whoever made the point about breeders wanting to sell foals or prospects but buyers wanting to buy under-saddle-and-winning-horses hit the nail right on top.
It also seems true that Americans generally won't spend hug amounts of money on a green prospect let alone a foal.
Re. farming: Believe me farming doesn't pay off any more here than in the US. We too are paid subsidaries yet most farms can not work profitably and live 'off the substance' as we call it. It will get worse and is very sad. Instead of just being paid a fair price for our products we are artificially forced to face some world-market price that puts us in competition with third-world-countries that have no employment standards, no expensive social security system in place for their people, no environment guidelines to follow and so forth.
Bottom line is the vast majority of breeders in Europe will have another income to live on and do the horsebreeding as more of a gamble or hobby type of thing. However that doesn't mean they can afford to give away just about everything.

We do have state studs that are paid by the state but nowadays they are forced to follow a business plan themselves and they are being controlled for cost. I believe the State involvement in horse-breeding is no higher here than in any other industry or sport overall. We generally do have a lot of public organization here (in terms of sport, transportation, educational etc.) but we end up paying for most of it with a number of taxes and so we do for any institution that helps us with the horse breeding whether it is the agricultural department (stallion and mare performance test sites), the FN (you pay a member-fee via your riding and/or breeding club plus there is a fee on having yourself and your horses registered), you pay public fees to be allowed to use the 'Reitwegenetz' (trails), there is an extra tax on your dog, any vehicle you own and drive in public, there are payments to be made towards the agricultural chamber that are per acre/ha, the disease prevention fund that are paid per head (interestingly there is a fee due for horses but no possible disease to get refunded for http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) etc.etc. These costs are all not taken into account whenever there is talk about how European breeders get support from the state.

Re. land pastureland is fairly reasonably bought here by international standards. Fencing, vet costs and just about everything else besides studfees and tack I find not significantly cheaper than in North America.
Anything related to pharmaceuticals is definitely more expensive (e.g. an ivermectine deworming paste doser cost at least 15 Euro with the strongid-equivalent being not much less).
Therefor we don't have a LFG here on a general basis so if a mare doesn't catch you end up paying at least half of the studfee yet again in the following season and your discount will be void should you decide not to stay with that same station or stallion. With a state stud you can't even switch stallions or mares but it has to be the same pairing...

I too am facing costs of minimum 7K Euro for a coming 3yo. However I think it 'feels' less because more of it is 'do it yourself'. E.g. it wouldn't occur to me to hire a professional transporter to haul any of my horses back and forth. Likewise I wouldn't pay someone to handle them at shows or inspections and up until now when I became too busy with my main profession and family I never even sent any of my horses to a professional trainer but did all of the training and showing myself.

I do save a lot on upbringing as we do have our own land and anyone that's not in training lives out with a run-in-shed-situation so feeding is faciliated a lot. The farrier will come every 4-6 weeks but will only do the ones that are due which generally aren't more than 6 out of 26 horses because they are all barefoot and luckily correct on the feet. The foals will occasionally require more attention and trimming but therefor most of my yearlings and up don't need a trim very often.
I spend a lot on parasite- and disease-prevention but nearly nothing on flyspray, supplements (unless medically necessary) or grooming the breeding horses, mocking stalls by hand as they are all out and the manure can be removed with machinery.

Even with such an extensive upbringing system each horse will still cost me 1000-1500 Euro per year.

On another note I think the ones that think 'we can't copy Europe' are right. There traditionally is so much innovation in N.A. though I really think breeders will continue to organize themselves and promote their matter. There will remain a problem with the gap between the talented but green prospect and the made GP horse and American buyers unwilling to spend serious $$ for super potential.
I see this huge market and think to myself 'why is there no such thing as the PSI auction in North America'? Because I really don't see the reason. What about people like the Thomas' or Mrs. Gooding who shop superexpensive at the auctions here in Europe on a fairly regular basis. Can they be convinced to buy one at home for a comparable price? That would be a fair start because really a super one should cost super money no matter where...

Bea

Dec. 20, 2004, 08:17 AM

Reading these threads always brings up the following question for me. As mentioned earlier, reiners are exported out of the country. We have entered into sales negotiation with several overseas buyers. And that has made me aware that other countries have strict importation rules. To be honest I'm not aware whether those rules are governmental or set somehow by horse associations. Most recently, Israelis contacted us. They are only allowed to import stallions and mares, geldings not allowed. I can't remember what the exact requirements for the sire are (earnings over $50,000 NRHA?). But I do remember the dam or grand dam needed to have earned or produced earnings of at least $15,000. That's a lot for a reining mare! So, before they even wanted a video of the our young mare. We needed to produce those earnings records.

I believe European countries have similar importation rules. I can't remember what the Germans' rules are, but if I remember correctly they exist.

Obviously what this means is only the very top US horses are being exported to countries such as these. Because they only imported the very best, Germany is now at the point with reiners that they are producing their own. And will need to import less and less.

Not being in the English world I have little experience with what type of horse is being purchased abroad and imported in. My vague impression is it's either broodmares US breeders are imported to improve their stock. Or relatively inexpensive geldings.

And perhaps it's the average imported horse that competes most with US sales.

In other words, other countries have protectionist rules in place to protect their horse market. No geldings, only mares and stallions of top performing and producing lines.

Rather than attempting to improve every last US horse, an impossible task. Or change the accreditation (or lack thereof) of trainers. Or attempt to lower costs. Perhaps breeders should lobby to put in place similar protectionist rules. Might sound crazy. But it's certainly common for other products. And if other countries are applying these types of rules to horses, why not the US?

Duffy

Dec. 20, 2004, 09:31 AM

I'm glad that most of you are pricing your babies according to their individual quality, NOT what you have in them plus a profit of some kind.

I hate going to websites and ALL of the foals are at one price; weanlings at another; yearlings, etc. In other words, does the breeder think that ALL of the same aged youngsters are the SAME quality or do they just not know how to price them? I'm not an expert at looking at a baby and knowing it's potential. I think the breeders should be the expert, or close to it, in this situation. The most expensive of a certain age should be the nicest, both currently and for what the breeding expert thinks his/her potential will be.

eurofoal

Dec. 20, 2004, 10:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kareen:
I think whoever made the point about breeders wanting to sell foals or prospects but buyers wanting to buy under-saddle-and-winning-horses hit the nail right on top.
It also seems true that Americans generally won't spend hug amounts of money on a green prospect let alone a foal.

--------------------------------------------------Yes, this is true, but changing. More people are seeing the benefit of buying really nice horses, which are, of course, more affordable when young.
--------------------------------------------

Re. farming: Believe me farming doesn't pay off any more here than in the US. We too are paid subsidaries yet most farms can not work profitably and live 'off the substance' as we call it. It will get worse and is very sad. Instead of just being paid a fair price for our products we are artificially forced to face some world-market price that puts us in competition with third-world-countries that have no employment standards, no expensive social security system in place for their people, no environment guidelines to follow and so forth.
-----------------------------------------------

As an alfalfa/avocado/horse farmer, we've never seen the "subsidies" that everybody seems to be so sure we're getting. We, too, compete worldwide, which is a real issue in the avocado marketplace. Mexico and Chile both have thier eyes on the US market in a big way.
___________________________________________---

Bottom line is the vast majority of breeders in Europe will have another income to live on and do the horsebreeding as more of a gamble or hobby type of thing. However that doesn't mean they can afford to give away just about everything.
----------------------------------------------
I think it's the same here
--------------------------------------------

I too am facing costs of minimum 7K Euro for a coming 3yo. However I think it 'feels' less because more of it is 'do it yourself'. E.g. it wouldn't occur to me to hire a professional transporter to haul any of my horses back and forth. Likewise I wouldn't pay someone to handle them at shows or inspections and up until now when I became too busy with my main profession and family I never even sent any of my horses to a professional trainer but did all of the training and showing myself.

----------------------------------------------
I wonder if this isn't THE biggest issue of all. Most of our breeders are semi-retired riders and don't break/train/show thier own babies. The biggest complaint I hear, besides the marketing issues, are the lack of affordable "starter trainers". You folks who do it yourself are far ahead of the financial curve there.
______________________________________________-

Even with such an extensive upbringing system each horse will still cost me 1000-1500 Euro per year.

On another note I think the ones that think 'we can't copy Europe' are right. There traditionally is so much innovation in N.A. though I really think breeders will continue to organize themselves and promote their matter. There will remain a problem with the gap between the talented but green prospect and the made GP horse and American buyers unwilling to spend serious $$ for super potential.
I see this huge market and think to myself 'why is there no such thing as the PSI auction in North America'? Because I really don't see the reason.
------------------------------------------

We're working on it! I think we need support from the registries themselves to make it work. Aren't your auctions, such as Vecta and Verden, sponsored BY the registries themselves? We don't even have breeders guides or web links for ours.
-----------------------------------------------

What about people like the Thomas' or Mrs. Gooding who shop superexpensive at the auctions here in Europe on a fairly regular basis. Can they be convinced to buy one at home for a comparable price? That would be a fair start because really a super one should cost super money no matter where... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boy, I would like to know the answer to that one myself. I guess it just gets back to the fact that we don't have a venue for presentation of groups of horses. Our auctions, such as the Eurosport auctions, the Oaks, and Mid Atlantic Hanoverian breeder's auctions are somewhat attended but still have a long way to go. Good horses don't meet the reserves and aren't sold-- some buyers are critical of the quality, etc etc.

LLDM

Dec. 20, 2004, 12:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by elly:
I have said this before and will say it again - pick the best horse you have in your barn and make it available to the best rider you know - work out some kind of arrangement from which all of you, mostly your horse will benefit.

The more success our US bred horses have, the more riders will be interested in buying them.

Happy Holidays

Elly <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Elly, I absolutely agree. I am always looking for good riders. Do you have any suggestions on how to find them? Do you have a twin? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think most US breeders are lucky if they can break even on their average horses. It is more difficult to get good money for our best ones or find decent homes for the not so great ones, even at a loss.

If I had 100 horses at my farm, I might have better luck getting people out here to look! Are all those 100 horses at your friend's place bred by him, or does he have horses from other breeders too?

SCFarm

nhwr

Dec. 20, 2004, 12:25 PM

I used to breed a bit. Now I just breed for myself. Everyone says "A horse is worth what someone is willing to pay for it". The sobering reality when you are a breeder is most people in the US aren't willing to pay much for horses that aren't rideable. It doesn't matter how nice the horses are or how much you have in them. There are a lot more youngsters for sale than there are buyers for them. Supply and demand - unstarted babies don't sell.

Trakehners2000

Dec. 20, 2004, 12:34 PM

Supply and demand - unstarted babies don't sell.
While that maybe the case, what I see is that personally and several friends of mine- who simply can't afford 25k for a horse ARE buying them young and/ or are breeding their own champions.

STF

Dec. 20, 2004, 01:06 PM

I still think its about network. Really...Im always looking at sale horses even if Im not really looking to buy and I always find more website of American breeders that I did not know existed before. I wish there were ONE listed database of breeders by breed and disipline.

I agree with Elly about picking the best horses at your barn and promoting them. Unfort. even if we breed smart, it does not always work out that way.

Its important that we are not wearing rose colored glasses and look at each and every offspring as what IT IS and not what WE WANT it to be. Hard to do as so many of us get emotionally attached even before birth! *sigh* But....we do have that responsibility to do this.

Elly, I will say I did read the article in Dressage Today and it seems that you and others are on a good "American" track. Your pic in the magazine was great by the way. Congrads on your accomplishments with your American Bred boy!

I think there are good horses and crappy horses everywhere. Its just FINDING them is the hard part, IMO.

I have made a lot of breeding friends and we network, so say if I get an email for a horse that does not fit anything I mighht have here, I will email out to others to see if they can help the buyer. If more breeders would network it would be good too.

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 20, 2004, 01:10 PM

I agree - most babies DO sell before starting.

My breakdown:
1995 - (1) still have - not for sale http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
1996 - (2)one sold at weaning, one I still own - leased for several years by a JR rider after starting
1997 - (1) sold as a yearling
1998 (2) - kept one (not for sale), sold 1 as a 4 year old after 30 days undersaddle
1999 (3) - kept one (not for sale), 2 sold at weaning
2000 (2) - one sold at weaning, one about to be backed
2001 (2) - both sold weaning/yearling
2002 (5) - 3 sold as weanlings/yearlings, 2 I still have, but not really trying to market them as they will be nice replacement fillies for their moms
2003 (4) - 3 sold as yearlings, one I still have (had him overpriced until a month ago as I was thinking about keeping him)

Totals: (not including 2004 foals)
22 foals (1995-2003)
3 not for sale
13 sold as weanlings/yearlings
2 have not sold/leased until backed
1 not sold - about to be backed
3 not sold - still too young for breaking

van

Dec. 20, 2004, 01:11 PM

A question to the breeders... When you think you have a "good one", what are you basing this on before they are broke under saddle? I have seen winners on the line at 2 years of age mature into very plain horses. I have seen beautiful moving foals turn into sewing machines when they start wearing shoes. I have seen horses jump exceptionally well in the jump chute that can't seem to figure it out with a rider on them, and horses with quite a bit of talent that were unable to mentally cope with showing.

I think my point in this is that until they are under saddle, you really can't know what you have, so when a breeder calls me and A) is offended that I don't want to see anything that is not under saddle yet or B) tells me that they have the next Rox Dene (but it is only coming 2), I think twice about wanting to see any of their horses... especially if these not yet under saddle horses are priced highly!

Vanessa Brown
www.derbyhillfarm.com (http://www.derbyhillfarm.com)

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 20, 2004, 01:22 PM

I do not wear rose colored glasses, and ALL of my foals will be able to be sucessfully shown in Recognized competition in some discipline.

I think breeders need to know the genes behind your stock, so crosses are very predictable. Europeans might count their less dressagey movers as a failure, but that is why I make sure what I breed has STRONG jumping lines on both sides. I LOVE breeding dressage horses, but my program is to breed jumpers that are good movers. My horses might not be "hot" enough to do International GP Dressage or Jumpers, but the quality of their gaits, and jump is still there.

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 20, 2004, 01:31 PM

Vanessa
I breed parents/grandparents/ggparents that have a good jump with a rider. The youngsters that have matured have ALL shown that they have that ability with a rider. It is the same as you would expect from an Alla Czar or an All the Gold - proof that they breed their talent thru. I also make sure that the #1 thing I breed for is a strong loin connection. Horses that don't have strong loin connection are horses that lose their gaits, and ability to use their backs with a rider. Every foal I have bred has been BETTER at maturity than they showed as a foal.

STF

Dec. 20, 2004, 01:43 PM

That IS all you can go on as a foal or young horse buyer....(as Fairview said)....
That is why the price of a foal and a backed horse is going to be a bit higher too.
Even if I go over to Sweden and bring back a yearling for a lower price than a 3-4 yr old to "save money and start myself".....but there are no guarentee that they will be super under saddle or not. That is the gamble. Yet...some people cant afford a well bred, started horse so they dont have a choice but to buy young stock.
I think Fairviews breakdown was great....as they did not HAVE to sell their horses (she kept some as she noted). I think those breeders that HAVE to sell to pay their bills are the ones that get into financial issues and binds. If you can build your business plan to breed and not depend on horse sales as profit then you might be ok! LOL

I find I get more calls for 2 and 3 yr olds than anything but that is my experience the last couple of years with this.

van

Dec. 20, 2004, 02:07 PM

Fairview, I DON'T expect a horse to be great just because its' parents are. I have seen Plenty of beautifully bred horses that are full brothers or sisters to wonderful show horses that just didn't have the same scope/ style/ movement. So while I agree that you have the right idea in breeding nice, successful, well built horses to each other, and you certainly have a much higher chance of the babies turning out to be something, it is still only a guess until they are under saddle, and attempting to do the job that they were bred for. Obviously, this is where the risk decreases as the years go on, and if you buy them as a yearling you should be able to pay less, and assume greater risk than if you are buying them as a 3 year old under saddle where you should pay more, and assume slightly less risk.

I am only pointing out that there are many breeders who will send a tape of a yearling/ 2 year old, and price it like it was already under tack, and go on to tell you that it absolutely without a doubt is the next Rox Dene because it is winning on the line. It is just another degree of being realistic/ educated on what you have. I say if a breeder believes that much in one horse, they should keep it, find a good trainer that can show it as a 4 year old Pre Green horse (and trust me, if it IS the next Rox Dene, they will be lined up to have the ride!!), and PROVE that they are breeding that kind of horse to the show world. Then the next time they say they have the real deal, we will put more stock in their word... this, of course going back to our gripe about flying across the country to go see one or two horses that end up not being anything like they were represented.

Vanessa Brown
www.derbyhillfarm.com (http://www.derbyhillfarm.com)

STF

Dec. 20, 2004, 02:19 PM

Nothing wrong with what you just said Van...
Makes total sense...

LLDM

Dec. 20, 2004, 02:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by van:
A question to the breeders... When you think you have a "good one", what are you basing this on before they are broke under saddle? I have seen winners on the line at 2 years of age mature into very plain horses. I have seen beautiful moving foals turn into sewing machines when they start wearing shoes. I have seen horses jump exceptionally well in the jump chute that can't seem to figure it out with a rider on them, and horses with quite a bit of talent that were unable to mentally cope with showing.

I think my point in this is that until they are under saddle, you really can't know what you have, so when a breeder calls me and A) is offended that I don't want to see anything that is not under saddle yet or B) tells me that they have the next Rox Dene (but it is only coming 2), I think twice about wanting to see any of their horses... especially if these not yet under saddle horses are priced highly!

Vanessa Brown
http://www.derbyhillfarm.com <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

van - I think this is the most striking difference between the hunter world and the dressage and jumper worlds. These guys seem to have more confidence in predicting performance in young horses. Now they aren't always right, but it seems that bloodlines tell more than most hunter folks might think. Also I think that there are some things that these folks can live with that the hunters just won't or can't.

OR - it is such a specific combimnation of traits that makes a great hunter that it is just more difficult or impossible to tell before they are almost completely made up.

I think that dressage, jumpers and eventers can all go to the top (or near enough) with various combinations of strengths and even a weak area or two, that they don't have to be a "perfect" type to do so. Maybe, if there were a big interest in breeding high end hunters, then the odds could be improved. But it is such an uphill battle in the hunter world, it would take someone a long time and deep pockets to prove. I really wish the hunters would start paying attention to the entire pedigrees of their top horses. Until they do, it probably is too big a gamble.

Of course with dressage (and that portion of eventing) there is a mindset that the horse's gaits can be improved with proper training and riding. I must say that I have never heard this notion in the hunter world. Now you can't make a crappy mover great, but you should be able to improve balance and stride with the right conditioning and development.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the hunter market if the levels of shows are more stratafied. That is what's happening, isn't it? If there is more middle ground than "A", "AA" and locals, it would seem that would open up a much bigger market for all those just "pretty good" horses.

Just some random thoughts...

SCFarm

SportArab

Dec. 20, 2004, 02:33 PM

I think after you have seen enough babies grow up, you know what to look for.

That doesn't mean that poor training can't screw up a young horse with a lot of potential.

I can look at the babies in my pasture and tell you which ones will excell in which diciplines. Can I guarantee that a particular foal will be scoring in the 80s at Grand Prix - no. But I can tell you which ones have the movement and the brains to do well.

You can also tell which babies like to jump. But if baby goes to a jumper trainer that overfaces him... well.. all bets are off.

lyrical

Dec. 20, 2004, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by van:
A question to the breeders... When you think you have a "good one", what are you basing this on before they are broke under saddle?

That's a good question,Van. It's a lot easier for me as the breeder to know when I have a "good" one because I have the history of raising and training foals from each of my mares. Based on what each has produced and how they turned out,I can venture a pretty accurate guess. There certainly can be surprises of the pleasant as well as unpleasant kind, however. I have learned not to try to sell my opinion even to experienced horsemen. It can be very difficult to see the potential in a horse that is butt high with the coordination of a fast growing 13 year old boy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Because we start our youngsters here on the farm and do all their basic training on the flat and over fences, I get a pretty good idea of how the foal's talents correlate with the adult version under saddle. You are right that there is a risk involved in buying those not yet started. That's why I price those unstarted as low as I do. Because I also have less invested and by selling early, I avoid some of the risk that is passed on to the buyer.

As a breeder, I never advertise and really don't market my foals myself. Word of mouth gets those not under saddle sold. The youngest I ever sold was 1 month old to a very well known HOY Hunter breeding owner. He heard about the horse from the stallion owner. I sold two unbroken two year olds this past year as soon as they were seen by trainers who know my mares produce and came looking for what I had. Some come out each year to see what's ready to be started. They know the mares produce and know the prices will be reasonable.

On the other hand, some of the youngsters are not looking the most attractive at that age, and despite what most horsepeople may say, not many can "see" the talent in an ungainly yearling or two year old. I have to say that many of the best ones I have produced, were not stellar looking individuals as youngsters. But time and training brought out the latent talent.

I am guilty, however, of discouraging people from buying youngsters from me if I think they are not able to get the horse into the hands of someone who will give it the right chance to succeed. Even though many more can afford to buy because of the reasonable price of the youngsters, I have no desire to spend so much time money and energy breeding and raising a back yard horse. Not that those are not wonderful animals, but that is not the goal of my breeding program!

If I think the youngster is worth it,I will opt to keep them at home so they can grow up and get a good start under saddle and over fences. I have spent a long time developing a program that starts with basic dressage and progresses to work over fences when the individual horse is ready. Even the most ungainly ones will blossom in time.

Once they are going around well,I send them to be sold by a well known breeder friend of mine, who has contacts around the country. My horses are very rideable, physically fit to jump and have their changes as well as some experience off the farm by the time they go to be sold. What they DON'T have is an "A" show record. I simply cannot afford to campaign them, both in dollars and in time, and sell them for the prices that I do. I am a true "wholesaler". Which of course, means I will never get rich.http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

It also works the other way, as I just gave away a 3 year old gelding who was very well bred, has a cute jump and good movement, but will only top out at about 15.1. He will be a good little horse for someone, but it would not pay to put the additional time and training in him.

Bottom line? A breeder really should have an idea of which of their foals ought to be exceptionally good, just as they should know which ones probably should be culled. There are always surprises, however, and that is the risk to the buyer. Having them already started under saddle does help, but at least in my case, it certainly adds to their price as well.

van

Dec. 20, 2004, 04:21 PM

Lyrical,

Your reply, and several others give me hope that breeders ARE becoming more educated and realistic about their young horses. I would think that it would be very beneficial to upstart and smaller, less educated breeders to learn from some of the successful operations out there.

I think it would be wonderful if there were some well advertised, affordable "clinics" for breeders, maybe sponsored partially by breeding orgnizations to educate breeding enthusiasts. If you check out the Hunter/ Jumper forum, there was recently a clinic put on for zone 10 where USHJA members were able to participate for an extremely reasonable fee and get instruction in the classroom, and "in the field" by top professionals. I would love to see more of this type of opportunity for horseman everywhere in every discipline, or aspect of sporthorses! Of course, this means there need to be participants that are willing to put their stock under the microscope, and not be afraid of professionals pointing out the positives and the negatives, and in my experience (mainly with conformation/ judges clinics), it is difficult sometimes to find willing participants!

Anyway, just some more thoughts...

Vanessa Brown
www.derbyhillfarm.com (http://www.derbyhillfarm.com)

Westfalen-Pferde

Dec. 20, 2004, 05:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Laurie@CBF:
STF - people in Germany do not expect to break even or make money on every foal. They are a lot more realistic about what they have on the ground. Yes they will try to make money on the top ones - but they won't keep putting good money into an individual that is only mediocre. They will cut their losses and sell it cheaply as a weekend pleasure horse.

This is something that we in NA need to assimilate. NOT every young horse is worth what we have into it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THIS is for sure a true thing in Germany - great bloodline is NOT aguearantee for great offsprings - of course the chance to get a good one is much higher ... but you will find the quality in the horse - not in the paper. Horses that are good for pleasur riding (even with great bloodline) are sold for less mone - those who are able to run at the top will bring you the money - but German breeders are much more realistical - they know to pick the good once and they have their price ... the avarage are still good - but they will be sold for and acceptable amount of money.

Lot's of German breeders do this as a hobby, and the marked will make the price - you have to put a lot of money in a potential horse that will get professional training and will be shown - but there is allways a marked for high quality horses and if you have the right hand for breeding quality warmbloods and have the opportunity to train them ... you may raise some horses where the Germans and Americans are looking for ....

sylvan farm

Dec. 20, 2004, 05:08 PM

Actually there are quite a few programs available for breeders to become educated. Unfortunately not too many take advantage of such opportunities, for a variety of reasons. Most of the programs I am familiar with or have hosted at my farm are oriented toward dressage and jumping horses. LLDM made so very good points with regard to the differences between the hunter market and the dressage/jumper/event markets.

I think the recent clinic sponsored by USHJA was an outstanding idea and opportunity. The cost was remarkable. Hopefully, they will host such clinics in all zones. Unfortunately, if individuals organize a clinic, without the financial backing of a sponsoring organization,
participation fees will be substantially higher. We have to pay clinician fees, airfares and hotels.

That said, it does not stop us from hosting clinics. On Monday, Feb. 7th, we are hosting a clinic on evaluating young horses with Dr. Ludwig Christmann of Germany. The clinic will discuss bloodlines of the demonstration horses in the a.m., then evaluate the actual horses (2 to 4 yr olds) in-hand for conformation and gaits, under saddle and through the jump chute. We hope participants will be breeders, riders, trainers.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 20, 2004, 05:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by sylvan farm:
On Monday, Feb. 7th, we are hosting a clinic on evaluating young horses with Dr. Ludwig Christmann of Germany. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YOU'RE IN WA! Rats rats rats rats rats.

I have read a lot by him and have a great deal of respect for his (apparent) careful methodology (i.e., study on the heritability of jumping. Fascinating). Is he going to be doing anything on the East coast?

If not, please please PLEASE would you consider taping and selling a video. He is a remarkable man. I would love to go ... but I couldn't afford the $1,000 it would cost to get there.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> The clinic will discuss bloodlines of the demonstration horses in the a.m., then evaluate the actual horses (2 to 4 yr olds) in-hand for conformation and gaits, under saddle and through the jump chute. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am particularly interested in this aspect. I have heard many many comments about bloodlines, gaits, conformation, jump chute, etc., not being a reliable predictor of success under saddle. This is an educated man, a scientist (?) who, again, from what I've read, keeps some fairly sophisticated statistics. I'd LOVE to hear what he says about that!

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 20, 2004, 05:27 PM

I also have seen a big difference in full siblings - IN THE FIRST GENERATION of known sporthorse type. By the time I get several generations of the type I am looking for, the siblings become very predictable.

These things I know will be predictable:
a swinging, long ground covering, 4 beat walk
a long strided, elastic, rhythmical trot
a big step, 3 beat, across the back, rhythmical canter
a jump with knees up at least horozontal, and even, folding lower legs, tucking hind legs up, and reaching and rounding thru the neck and across the back
a disposition that makes an amateur be able to ride them, and even break them with a good ground person telling them how
and the height of the jump doesn't become an effort - they jump like it is nothing

I always price my youngsters reasonable, but when I get an older one, even if it is a super horse, I don't have the marketing skills, or the connections, or the facility to get it into the top show people's hands.

Laurie@CBF

Dec. 20, 2004, 05:33 PM

Hi Judy,

Dr Christman is an amazing resource and you are fortunate to have him come to your neck of the woods http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif. Please ask him if they are making any progress in getting free jumping competitions started in NA (for the young horses).

OM - we posted at the same time. Dr Christman will probably be at the AHS annual meeting in WPB this winter. The breeders course given by the Hanoverian Verband (Germany)in the fall is a great learning opportunity. The practice judging sessions (w/ Dr Christman) were outstanding.

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 20, 2004, 05:35 PM

We do need more clinics and seminars for breeders.

For example:
I was working toward my Sporhorse Breeders Judges License. I met the criteria of having bred a certain number of high placing youngsters in sporthorse classes by 1997. The other requirements are several days with a judge at a sporthorse breeding show, and 2 seminars. I attended one about 5 years ago. There has not been another on the east coast to meet the final requirements for me to apply since.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 20, 2004, 05:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
By the time I get several generations of the type I am looking for, the siblings become very predictable. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Darlyn,

I am not trying to be argumentative. PROMISE. But that seems to be quite a sweeping statement. Does it just become a question of degree? e.g., sibling 1 has 'the ability' but out of 10 it's a 5. Sibling 2 has 'the ability' and out of 10 it's 9. Do you see what I'm getting at?

Plus (yeah, I know, it's a PITA) do you have any documentation or quantifiable data on this ... from your point of view, of course.

I'm very interesting in this ... again, because I've had many many many people tell me what a cr@pshoot babies are.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 20, 2004, 05:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Laurie@CBF:
Please ask him if they are making any progress in getting free jumping competitions started in NA (for the young horses). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh? What's this, Laurie@CBF. This is the first I'm hearing about this.

Trakehners2000

Dec. 20, 2004, 05:38 PM

Fairview,
I think you are wise to price your horses within a reasonable price range. They will
be the best billboard for your stallion and
farm. Your stallion is beautiful and reminds
me of our mare's sire, Horizon by Mahon.

Laurie@CBF

Dec. 20, 2004, 05:43 PM

OM - as part of the Hanoverian Jumper program (Germany) there are free jumping competitions for young horses. I keep asking everyone I know connected with the AHS when they are going to start them in NA http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 20, 2004, 05:48 PM

I can give you an example also of young horses gaits not remaining good under saddle. In the seminar I attended, participants judged a 3 year old mare's gaits. The debate was about why the mare would not earn 10s, as her gaits were phenominal. I think they settled on 9.5s. I stood alone as I was not impressed because she had a weak loin connection. I just can't look past that. Later in the day, she came back for the undersaddle part of the judging. Now she was getting scores of 5s and the discussion changed to how to improve her gaits some over time with careful building of muscle.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 20, 2004, 05:58 PM

Darlyn,

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Am I making a mistake, or did you just contradict yourself? Again, I promise, I'm not trying to stir or cause problems. I'm really trying hard to understand.

The point I think you're making is that undersaddle, all bets ***can*** be off. Also, the "package" needs to fit together ... e.g., the loin example you cited. BTW, was this mare a washout? What would you do with her? Help me along here, dear.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Laurie@CBF:
OM - as part of the Hanoverian Jumper program (Germany) there are free jumping competitions for young horses. I keep asking everyone I know connected with the AHS when they are going to start them in NA http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And, have you received any response? Well, except silence http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Are these in connection with breed shows?

And, of course, the $50,000 question: have the winners gone on to remarable performance careers?

sylvan farm

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:02 PM

Guess the NA jumper competition question comes back to me.... The AHS is in the process of developing a jumping horse breeding program based on the Springpferde breeding program (same entry requirements for mares and stallions) in Germany. As a member of the organizing committee , I can tell you our [B]goal is to introduce the program at the annual meeting. As part of this program, there will be free-jumping competitions for 3 and 4 year olds, altho not sure when the first competition would be. We are still working on the details of the program, so cannot answer any questions about that right now.

I think this is really exciting for NA breeders and riders.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by sylvan farm:
I think this is really exciting for NA breeders and riders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So do I!!! Will it be restricted to just AHS horses?

AND, please, will you consider the video thing? I have a tremendous amount of respect for this man. I would love to hear what he has to say.

Majestic Gaits

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:05 PM

Darlyn we just hosted a Seminar this past spring with Hilda Gurney up here in MA. Sorry you missed it. In New England we are planning at least one breeding type seminar a year.

Kathy
www.majesticgaits.com (http://www.majesticgaits.com)

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Majestic Gaits:
Darlyn we just hosted a Seminar this past spring with Hilda Gurney up here in MA. Sorry you missed it. In New England we are planning at least one breeding type seminar a year. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kathy,

Any known plans, yet, for 2005?

Laurie@CBF

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:09 PM

OM- I only heard about this at the end of October when I took the Han breeders course. I am pretty excited to hear that Judy is on the organizing committee.

Of course my oldest youngster that would be a star at this is a gelding http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

Dressage101

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Just like I have one colt this year that even with nice breeding is not what I was hoping for. Will I take a hit, yup....but will I over price him, nope! Could I be totally wrong about him!? Sheeze, maybe?!?!
So....his price tag is lower than the rest. Now, I have another filly that Im very happy about and her price reflects that too. But even then for her bloodlines and overall package Im much lower than a lot of horses in North America. Last thing Im trying to do is rip people off. Im very logical as Im not only a breeder but I buy too....plus Im honest, which sucks in this business. I could do much better if I were crooked I think! LMAO <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

STF who are you talking about that you are not happy with?
I got the sales video two weeks ago that you mailed me & I must say that Victoria is one of the nicest fillies I have seen in my 20 years of looking at horses and in this business. I cant get her out of my head. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

We will be in your area in two weeks and she and that other chestnut are on the TO SEE list. I cant wait to wrap my arms around that filly but Im afraid I wont be able to let her go! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:13 PM

OMOM. I am seeing very predictable results, but don't forget, I am breeding a stallion that I bred, and I bred his mom. I don't breed out to flavor of the month. I have siblings that are so much alike you have to match markings in photos to see it is a different horse. I have a jumper trainer that is coming her to teach a boarder lessons. Everytime she shows up, she notices a different horse that she really loves. I laugh and keep telling her that the ones she is picking are all full siblings of different ages (4 year old to yearling).

I have a filly that if I keep her, I will need to breed out this year (Nevada daughter, Ollie sister). I will probably solve the problem by going to an outside stallion that I have used before, and know what he produces on my lines. Unfortunately, he is not living, so I will have to hope his frozen continues to be available. I can't afford to take the usual breeder's risks and gambles.

The mature ones have been evaluated/seen/commented on by judges, and high level riders confirming my evaluation.

I do find breeding a cr@pshoot - they can get sick, or injured. Mares can abort, or have trouble delivering. You can have growth issues to deal with...etc.

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:15 PM

OMOM, I don't breed horses with weak loin connections, so I CAN predict that they will be the same undersaddle

CathyKb

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:16 PM

I have not posted lately, because I am just soaking in all the good information. I think in my situation it is my location. I would love to have some type of network to be able to list prospects in a central location, website, catalog, etc. The more prospects the better, no matter where they are located. Living in West Texas is in no mans land. In the US there are comparable prospects to Europe. Every breeder that I know adjust their prices for the quality and not based on their cost. As stated full siblings are not the same. We all wish we could clone our special foal, but does not happen. Please tell me why the mare's gaits were so different under saddle.

Majestic Gaits

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:24 PM

Not yet. We know we want to do a handling seminar again. We want to get use different clinicians each year. I did videos on them and hopefully this winter I'll have them put together for distribution. If your a member of NEDA we'll send out news, but I'll try to post on this board. It will be USDF approved but it takes a while to get into their publications.

Kathy
www.majesticgaits.com (http://www.majesticgaits.com)

Trakehners2000

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:25 PM

Kathy,
Acctually you can clone them. The cattle, sheep and hog people are all actively doing so.
www.cyagra.com (http://www.cyagra.com)

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:27 PM

Kathy - I didn't know about the seminar. That would have been super. I had given up checking/asking.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:28 PM

Darlyn,

Ahhhhhh. The light is coming on ... NOW I understand. Actuallly, that must be fascinating to see, every year, how they are the same and how they are different.

And the loin connection,... I understand now too. Thank you for explaining. I hope I wasn't putting you on the spot. And if I was, please accept my apologies.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Of course my oldest youngster that would be a star at this is a gelding . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course! You can't win for losing!

LLDM

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by van:
Lyrical,

Your reply, and several others give me hope that breeders ARE becoming more educated and realistic about their young horses. I would think that it would be very beneficial to upstart and smaller, less educated breeders to learn from some of the successful operations out there.

I think it would be wonderful if there were some well advertised, affordable "clinics" for breeders, maybe sponsored partially by breeding orgnizations to educate breeding enthusiasts. If you check out the Hunter/ Jumper forum, there was recently a clinic put on for zone 10 where USHJA members were able to participate for an extremely reasonable fee and get instruction in the classroom, and "in the field" by top professionals. I would love to see more of this type of opportunity for horseman everywhere in every discipline, or aspect of sporthorses! Of course, this means there need to be participants that are willing to put their stock under the microscope, and not be afraid of professionals pointing out the positives and the negatives, and in my experience (mainly with conformation/ judges clinics), it is difficult sometimes to find willing participants!

Anyway, just some more thoughts...

Vanessa Brown
http://www.derbyhillfarm.com <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

van - The USDF convention and symposium that was held the first week of December was based primarily on the young horse. The title of the Symposium was "The Development of the Dressage Horse - From Foal to Grand Prix". It was amazingly well done. From evaluating breeding stock to early training and how it all relates to upper level training and competition. There were three two-hour lectures by International breeders, trainers, judges and riders. There were also two full afternoon sessions with demos on the same, by the same professionals. It will also be available on video as soon as it is produced.

The dressage community is really stepping up to the plate and the eventing community is following right behind them. They did a breeding seminar at Rolex **** for the last two years and are adding the Young Event Horse Series to the growing list of young horse specialty competitions. Add this to the Materiale and FEI 5 & 6 yo classes and we are starting to close the gap in these disciplines.

These are realistics goals for breeders to get their best young horses to without breaking the bank. I sincerely hope that the new H/J org will follow suit. The breeders simply can not bear the burden alone. We need the disciplines to meet us halfway. It only makes sense for them to really be involved, so they can get the kinds of horses they want. We are breeders first, which is its own, very complicated job with its own rather wideranging areas of expertise. If we already knew everything about all the disciplines, we would need trainers! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif We don't expect trainers to know everything about breeding either! But we still need to find ways of coming together. I really hope the USHJA wants to get on board. I have heard some very encouraging rumors...

SCFarm

Trakehners2000

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:36 PM

I do not condone cloning and am not trying to change the topic here, just thought you all might want to look into what is being done in the world. I didn't know it until I went to the World Dairy Expo last year and there were a few cloning companies. This year there were even more. You can acctually pick, lets say the world champion heifer, and clone seven of her if you want. Yikes http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif
Of interest to you all maybe the service that gave a 98% chance of having a heifer instead of a bull. They take the shipped semen and 'spin' it out, leaving only the semen that produces, in our case--fillies. Interesting to see if they start to offer this 'filly' service to the equine market. Usually the dairy industry is the leader and the equine market tends to glean from its inovations. They also had a neat contraption there for giving cpr to a calf, should work on foals too.

STF

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:41 PM

Dressage101 - Im glad you like Tori! I love her too. Please get with me before you make the trip as I am ending my term of human pregnancy, so the next 3 weeks are gona be a bit "on call"....I dont want you to waste a trip if I am in the hospital.
I also did get your email on breeding Linn and I totally understand as I think your better off buying a foal or young horse (either it be mine or someone else). There are tons of horses out there so take your time and find the one you feel is right! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And why do all these great breeding seminars have to be SOOOO far away from me! Grrrrrrrrr!!!

CathyKb

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:45 PM

STF- We are in the same state but so far away from each other. All the great seminars are so far away from us. It is such a shame. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Trakehners2000

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:54 PM

Cathy, There is a Convention & Seminar in Huston, TX November of 05. Here is the link;
http://www.flyingchange.com/convention.html

Kareen

Dec. 21, 2004, 12:40 AM

To Bea: The import rules are solely about quarantine / disease prevention. Nowhere will you be restricted in what quality you bring in.
I think the horses that are exported to the US from Europe come in all fashions.
Maybe 20 years ago it was the case that more low-end ones ended up being bought by Americans as warmbloods were all new to the market but remember back then the average warmblood looked different from what we breed today as well.
Nowadays I think the US is looking for the same qualities Europe does. Excellent breeding stock and riding horses have crossed the atlantic for years now and I don't think this is a sign for Europe protecting their market against the US but rather the opposite. If we were protective we would have to put a ban on breeding stock leaving the country http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
But there is no measure - whether here in Europe nor in the States - to prevent im/or export of horses of a certain quality. It's only about quarantine restrictions both ways. The mid East seems to have it different but between Europe and North America supply and demand rule everything.

lorik

Dec. 22, 2004, 04:47 AM

Darlyn,
Keep working for that license. We need more good breed judges.

Highlife

Dec. 22, 2004, 01:17 PM

STF and CathyKb, I know you are in Texas, and again are so far away http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif but I wanted to let others know about a free breeding clinic we are holding January 8th in Orlando, Florida. All the info is on our website and we are also raffling a breeding to one of our stallions at this clinic.

Guest speakers Dr. Erin Denney-Jones, Dr. Michelle LeBlanc and Dr. David Pugh will cover the following topics:
· Reproduction Problems in Mares
· Reproduction Hormone Cycle of Mares
· Managing Mares for Cooled & Frozen Semen Breeding
· Nutrition for the Breeding Stallion & Mare
· Equine Viral Arteritis (EVA), What You Need To Know

This is the first clinic of this sort for our facility and hope this information will be helpful to other breeders.

Kyzteke

Dec. 22, 2004, 02:23 PM

Regarding cloning -- as far as I know, it is still beyond the reach of all but the richest person.

And a clone does NOT mean it is going to look/act/perform like the "original model." It just means it has the exact same genetic package. No different than an identical twin.

So far I've seen two "sets" of clones. One horse, one cat. In both cases the pairs had different colors, different markings and (in the case of cats) even different personalities! The "trick" to cloning is to making sure the same set of genes are expressed, and while this is an exciting new area of science, it is just now being explored.

Trakehners2000

Dec. 22, 2004, 05:46 PM

Check out the www.cyagra.com (http://www.cyagra.com) site. I was at the dairy expo, and it was accepted there, not even a freakish type thing. And it was marketed as affordable. It is becoming very common with them and while it is most popular with cattle, it is being used else where. I only mentioned it because I was alarmed at how it is becoming more common than you or I would think, and that is how things creep in with acceptance.

STF

Dec. 22, 2004, 06:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>STF and CathyKb, I know you are in Texas, and again are so far away but I wanted to let others know about a free breeding clinic we are holding January 8th in Orlando, Florida. All the info is on our website and we are also raffling a breeding to one of our stallions at this clinic.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I would have liked to go and that not to far out of the way. But...I will be giving birth sometimes that week, so I cant make it! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 30, 2004, 10:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lorik:
Darlyn,
Keep working for that license. We need more good breed judges. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hear hear.

Just tallied up the East Coast shows for the 2005 season as I will be contributing to the sponsorship of Gov's IBC classes. Get this, there are 9, yes *NINE*, EXCLUDING Devon.

These shows are becoming more and more popular. Now, if we can just get the buyers to come ...

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 30, 2004, 11:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trakehners2000:
I only mentioned it because I was alarmed at how it is becoming more common than you or I would think, and that is how things creep in with acceptance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agree; what will be the impact on the gene pool?

Equine Reproduction

Dec. 30, 2004, 12:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kyzteke:
Regarding cloning -- as far as I know, it is still beyond the reach of all but the richest person. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Texas A&M is doing it commercially now for about $150,000. They have three clones due sometime in the new year. And are working on a clone of a very well known, Quarter Horse stallion - one of those three or possibly all three clones may be a clone of that Quarter Horse. Which adds the additional problem of offspring by the clone <grin>...DNA will be the same as the clone's donor. Ought to be interesting...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> And a clone does NOT mean it is going to look/act/perform like the "original model." It just means it has the exact same genetic package. No different than an identical twin. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YES!!! It is the ultimate test of nuture vs. nature. Does the horse succeed because of who/what he/she is or does he/she succeed because of the cascade of events in life, i.e., right personal handling him, correct nutrition, the perfect trainer for that particular horse.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> So far I've seen two "sets" of clones. One horse, one cat. In both cases the pairs had different colors, different markings and (in the case of cats) even different personalities! The "trick" to cloning is to making sure the same set of genes are _expressed_, and while this is an exciting new area of science, it is just now being explored. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We actually had the opportunity to mess around a bit with two of the mule clones in Idaho. They were essentialy, identical twins - both produced from the same genetic material. One was considerably larger than the other despite only being a few weeks difference in age. And, the personality difference was interesting. The recip mares that they were born from were both similar in personality, but one of the foals was considerably more social and liked being around people, while the other really wanted nothing to do with people at all. Interesting stuff.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 30, 2004, 12:15 PM

Kathy,

As a repro specialist, what's your take on all this ... aside from the intellectual curiosity (I agree, BTW, regardless of the implications, it IS fascinating.)

Gold Dust

Dec. 30, 2004, 01:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:

These shows are becoming more and more popular. Now, if we can just get the buyers to come ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To keep up with the 'Marketing' theme going on at this time. What are these shows marketing? Are these breeders top stock? Does that mean these youngsters may be too pricey for middle america? What are the age brackets of the horses showing in hand? Who are you trying to attract at these shows? Trainers, clients agents first time buyers?
Although I think I know the answers to most, you need to broaden the word 'buyers'. We all also need to understand what this means for todays market.
See where I am going?

Hi Jump

Dec. 30, 2004, 04:11 PM

Since there are few cloned horses yet in existance it is having little impact. However the use of techniques stimulating super ovulation of multiple follicles which are inseminated for harvesting embryos for freezing or embryo transfer from select mares, and sexed sperm customizing foal gender may impact our market a few years down the road. Just fodder for thought.

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 30, 2004, 06:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hi Jump:
...embryo transfer from select mares, and sexed sperm customizing foal gender may impact our market a few years down the road. Just fodder for thought. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmm. I don't see this one,... what are you thinking, Hi Jump? Too many fillies? Or colts? From what I understand too, ET isn't the easiest thing to accomplish. Oh, but we're probably going to get better and better at it. You're right there.

Is ET, ... well, except for Poetin kinda thing, prevalent in Germany? Have you ever done it? What did you find?

Hi Jump

Dec. 31, 2004, 07:58 AM

On the high end level, the Ratina Z's of the world are producing offspring using these advanced techniques, certainly in Europe. My vet is employing super ovulation and embryo freezing and transfer techniques there. I would think such technology enabling a higher in mass, production of high end calibre horses, even customized sexing, with the technology becoming more prevalent as it becomes more cost effective will have a trickle down impact on what we are producing and our markets. Look at the huge interest shown here on this forum in obtaining frozen semen from Europe, much of Europes best bloodlines are already imported here and I see them often being overlooked. As more vets become familiar and have success with frozen, our production and market are impacted. I also notice more frozen semen from breeds like reining QH's being marketed to Europe. I just offer an insight, to think about the long term effects these technologies will have.

Equine Reproduction

Jan. 2, 2005, 12:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
Kathy,

As a repro specialist, what's your take on all this ... aside from the intellectual curiosity (I agree, BTW, regardless of the implications, it IS fascinating.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bizarre stuff going on when I try to post. My amazing disappearing posts <puzzled look>. Hopefully, this post will come through!

With regards to my personal take on all of this, I see some interesting potential to it, but I also see the potential for some real abuses. It would be the perfect opportunity to determine whether or not a horse is who/what it is because of it's genetic material, or because of it's environment, trainer(s), owner(s), rider(s), etc. I've always maintained that a horse with heart will go much further than the most perfectly conformed animal out there that has a lousy temperament. So, from that standpoint, I'm fascinated. Flip side of it is, I recognize how irrepsponsible some horse people are and when finances become involved, it can make it even more difficult to control potential problems.

Impressive is a perfect example of a genetic problem that some breeders will continue to perpetuate because those offspring still win in the show ring! Logic would dictate that using anything HYPP positive should be abandoned. Unfortunately, it isn't and the disorder continues.

I also have concerns about the limiting of gene pools. Prior to cloning, we knew that once a particular horse was deceased, that line would eventually become inaccessible. Even with frozen semen, there was a finite amount of it available. However, with cloning, we can keep going back to the well, so to speak. As it is, when looking at certain breeds and warmblood registries, there are certainly specific animals that are seen again and again in pedigrees...Northern Dancer in TB's comes to mind, Bask in Arabians, Couer de la Bryere in Holsteiners, Weltmeyer, Donnerhall...and so on. What will happen when we can continue to breed to those animals over and over and over again?
Many breeders select their breedings by pedigrees and often the match is not the most appropriate cross. Certain "catch" names are more easily marketable, regardless of the fact that an animal with a less popular pedigree may actually be the better animal! We've always maintained that, with the use of transported semen and frozen semen, the market will dictate whether breeders will continue going to a particular sire. But, will that be the case when a particular line can be accessed in perpetuity?

The lawsuit that the AQHA attempted to defend that ultimately lead to the change of rules regarding frozen semen and embryo transfers will make it interesting to see how the cloning technology will impact breeding. Obviously, the cost to produce a clone are going to be prohibitive (at least for now) for most breeders. However, as has been noted in my previous post, Texas A&M is working on (and may very well have already have one in "production) a clone of a very well known Quarter Horse sire. When that foal hits the ground, it's going to be interesting to see how all of this will shake out.

Would I clone a horse if I had the funds? Probably not for breeding <smile>...I like the challenge of trying to produce something better than what I have...not something that is identical.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

Trakehners2000

Jan. 2, 2005, 12:57 AM

When I hear about things like cloning, it makes me wonder if this type of thing is what the good book meant when it says we will "be destroyed for our lack of knowledge."
When you consider this cloning and the type of types of things going on with say, corn and tomatos, it scary to think these types of things happen without our knowledge.
At the world dairy expo, Cyagra (http://www.cyagra.com)
was only one of several companies that have been advertising cloning, and they have several success stories, so it must not be too cost prohibitive. I cannot help buy wonder when I grocery shop how much of the food we buy is spliced genetically. Tomatos with fish, and what is the popular thing that corn has been altered with? Peoples arguements are that it is better than spraying with chemicals? Hmmm. rather than put something ON it, it is better to change the structure of what it is? We really have no idea what the ramifications of this will be on us or horses,ect though it doesn't stop them from doing it. All the corn based products are affected already, that is from soda (corn syrup) to corn flakes. Now we can be drinking milk from cloned cows and eating cloned beef. With things such as gene splicing foods, cloning animals, cloning people, the effects of garbage dumping in the ocean, depletion of gene pools, dying off of domestic breeds (work horse, farm animals), extinction of wild animal species (Tigers, elephants), extinction of strains of foods (apples for example) and the Tsunami, you really start to wonder how much we are really affecting the planet and how things will be changed in 100 years. Not to be a downer, it is just something I think about sometimes.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

graystonefarm

Jan. 2, 2005, 04:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:
To keep up with the 'Marketing' theme going on at this time. What are these shows marketing? Are these breeders top stock? Does that mean these youngsters may be too pricey for middle america? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't followed all of the marketing threads so perhaps this was mentioned earlier, but what do you consider affordable to "middle america"?

Tiki

Jan. 2, 2005, 08:39 AM

You will also see quite a range of ages, from suckling probably up to 6or 7 years old, presented in hand, in under saddle classes, in suitability to become a dressage horse classes and in materiale classes. These are all they types of classes typically found at breeding shows. You will also find that most of the horses are very nice - after all, who would show a pig of a horse at a show - it costs money to show. However, you would probably find a nice range of prices. All the horses will be very nicely presented, all braided up, and buyers who have difficulty judging young horses will have the judges opinion to help. You can see lots of horses side by side within age group, and in the championship classes you will see them across age groups. Breeders are very willing to talk about their horses, and most of them will happily refer you to a friend or other breeder if they don't have just what you want. OMOM has been trying to get people to come and look at these 'sattelite' shows for a while and I have been working with Lori for Dressage at Devon to get people to come there by offering educational programs and barn tours for spectators and buyers.

Everyone always says they have to travel too far in this country to see one horse here and one horse there. Come to the breed shows. You can see anywhere from around 100 to well over 400 (at Devon) all in one place, all shiny and braided, all ages and stages, with the breeders there to answer your questions, and with the judges opinion to help you pick one out.

Trakehners2000

Jan. 2, 2005, 10:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by graystonefarm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:
To keep up with the 'Marketing' theme going on at this time. What are these shows marketing? Are these breeders top stock? Does that mean these youngsters may be too pricey for middle america? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't followed all of the marketing threads so perhaps this was mentioned earlier, but what do you consider affordable to "middle america"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think a lot of horses are advertised as 8 - 12k as in utero to yearling.

I think the more average buyer is more able to afford 3 to 6k. Just a guess. I know it cost more than that to breed one- so please don't tell me that- I was just answering what most people are willing to pay for a young horse.

I'm not sure what age of horse you mean.

graystonefarm

Jan. 2, 2005, 02:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trakehners2000:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by graystonefarm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:
To keep up with the 'Marketing' theme going on at this time. What are these shows marketing? Are these breeders top stock? Does that mean these youngsters may be too pricey for middle america? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't followed all of the marketing threads so perhaps this was mentioned earlier, but what do you consider affordable to "middle america"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think a lot of horses are advertised as 8 - 12k as in utero to yearling.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trakehners2000, thank you for the reply, however, since Gold Dust made the statement, I was hoping to get a reply from her.

Gold Dust

Jan. 2, 2005, 05:42 PM

Tiki-Thank you. In reading your post, it seems you are talking more toward dressage based in hand shows. Being that I am H/J disciplined I'm probably not attending a dressage based show.

So, now I'm thinking its off to the hunter breeding shows. MS Hunter, I know you do these often, please, if the senario I put out is wrong please correct me and help educate me and any other hunter in hand exhibitor that posts here.
First- as Ekkehard Brysch said in his article, I'm probably looking for anything of riding age. Lets say 3-5. Will I see many?
Second- these horses are at a horse show. How many times have we all heard, 'the price goes up once I start putting show miles on it'. So, I'm thinking pricey.
Third-I'm sure the horses you stand on the line are your top conformation stock. Costs money to show so you are only putting money into your best stock and investments,right? Now, my customers already know your conformation horses go for top dollar. We are looking for our future amateur star in our eyes. Some of your best Ch/Ad hunters would not win on any line but man, you'd want a bunch of those good solid citizens in your barn. Conformation hunters, on the line or in the ring, big money-yes no wrong again??
fourth-I'd like to see them free jumping. Will I see this at the breed show? If not, I'd be better off just going to your place of business.

Now, I'm at your farm. I want to see the possible future stock described above. I need to bring a good horseman with me that has a good eye for a young horse. I know one very well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Without this person, the average amateur is taking a big expensive risk. I know H/J people get that 'trainer dependant' sticker but nows the time you really need one. These great horseman are worth their weight in gold. I'd like to see a few at a good price, can I on the average? I may have taken a long ride in a car/plane and have with me a great horseperson who's time is money.

Greystone- after reading this and I hate talking money on the internet. Let's just say, at a breed show, those ages, can anything be found under 20?

I've tried to throw the best case senario of a little of everything I have heard over the years.
Since we seem to be talking marketing and not sales lately, is this what is marketed at a breed show? Not a bad thing at all but I'm thinking BNTS and people with more then the average to spend may attend these more then the average guy.
Am I a little close? My apologies if I have offended anyone or gotten anything really wrong but these are many of the things we can hear. So, here is your chance to correct me and tell me and anyone else reading this[get where I'm going] what is being marketed at these shows. Don't just tell us to come. Think what your target customer is and do some marketing. A good horse sells itself. Remember, it is all of you, here at COTH that have taught me your not selling at breed shows. How can we, collectively, change this. We all win then,right?

eurofoal

Jan. 2, 2005, 06:45 PM

I think that one of the things, if not the prime thing, that makes a great ammy horse is LOTS of miles. We all agree that these solid, reasonably priced types sell like hotcakes, regardless of the fact that they prob would never win a conformation class of any sort. I have noticed with the foals that I've sold that the ones that went to great homes with good quality riding/training, usually turned out to be great and very, very valuable horses. However, this was the result of years of daily riding, lots of time, effort and money. These owners brought a nice young horse and simply enjoyed riding and showing it. They weren't racing a clock to sell or keeping an eye on how much all this was costing for the sole purpose of recouping an investment. Eventually, these well loved horses got well trained, long show records, and a dollar value to go along with it.

As a breeder of several foals a year, I simply can't spend that much time and money on any one individual. I've tried, instead, to breed such nice horses that they'll sell as foals and price them in a fashion that my clients see the benefit of purchasing now rather than later. My days of riding 3 or 4 youngsters a day are long gone.

As Gold Dust points out, the ones that I've kept are likely to be breed show quality, the creme de la creme. I suspect that most breeders are in the same postition, or, even worse, are in the unenviable position of not clearly assessing their horse long ago and discovering that the horse has only moderate talents and is sure to be sold at a loss.

What I saw in Europe more often included getting enjoyment in the under saddle part of raising the youngster. Now that I have a fancy 3yr old going well under saddle, I'm faced with not even wanting to sell her! She's finally fun... I hate to see her go!

Caravel

Jan. 2, 2005, 08:53 PM

I know this probably isn't going to be what a lot of you want to hear, but I've been reading these threads about breed shows and bringing buyers and I feel the need to let you know my experience. Some years ago, my horse did the dressage in-hand shows. I hired a BNH, put my horse in full training and did the entire east coast circuit. When I went to the shows I noticed that the only spectators were other breeders. On the good side, I made some great contacts, got my horse out there, made some nice friends, etc. However, looking back on it I realize how naiive I was to think that potntial buyers would be flocking to these venues. What do these shows have to offer to riders? They have a lot to offer to breeders and are great for getting young horses exposed to showing but most buyers, especially hunter/jumper buyers, want a horse that is at the minimum carrying a rider. Most want the horse cantering a 2'6-3' course with changes and hopefully placing in small shows.

Getting the horses to this point really isn't as hard or expensive as everyone seems to think. There are tons of juniors and amateurs out there that love to help, you just need to ask them.

Instead of trying to get buyers to the in-hand stuff, I think it might be easier to convince them to show up for the suitability/materiale classes as well as the IHF/IJF/Young Horse classes. Maybe there would be a way to combine the dressage materiale classes with the futurities? Just a thought...

LLDM

Jan. 3, 2005, 06:23 AM

You may be interested to know that more breed shows are including the materiale and other young horses classes in their venues for just this purpose.

The point is to provide a continuity between them. This provides an opportunity for those who wish to educate themselves on breeding, bloodlines and how conformation affects performance.

I must say I get a bit frustrated with those trainers who refuse to acknowledge the number of people who work and shop somewhat independently of trainers. Nor the number of trainers who simply will not shop for clients.

There is a relatively large number of people who are knowledgable enough to pick out good horses on their own or only work with their trainers after their initial selections have been narrowed down quite a bit. This seems to be much more true of dressage and eventing types than of hunters, but even hunter riders can be knowledgable enough to find good prospects. In large part, they make up the majority of the market breeders sell to, as they are savvy enough to raise and train young horses without outsourcing the entire process.

This demographic, those who are not 100% trainer dependent, is the main market for breeders all over the world. By presenting opportunities for them to find quality young horses before they incur huge training bills we also give them a chance to buy "more horse" for less initial outlay. They will then be able to complete the training on their own, with the help of a trainer, or completely through the trainer of their choice. This simply allows them to spread the outlay of cash over a longer period of time, making the whole thing more affordable to the "average" American buyer. Some non-trainers actually enjoy bringing young horses along.

This whole process does not undermine the existing trainer businesses at all. These people already exist and are often the product of good trainers teaching well. This segement of the market contributes greatly to the economy of the equestrian community on all levels and often support one or more trainers in their areas.

I see no reason why breed and young horse performance shows would not be valuable to this market segment. It is simply an opportunity for them (or anyone else) to see many young horses in one place for themselves. I would think that trainers who are interested in prospects would get a lot out of it too, if they have the talent to see potential.

For every young horse presented at a show, the breeder often has others at home. It will give you a good idea if this breder produces the "type" of horse that interests you. You can approach those who interest you and avoid those who don't. Why is this any different than buying trips and auctions in other countries? There are many young horses available to be seen in one place with no pressure.

SCFarm

Caravel

Jan. 3, 2005, 07:18 AM

Very true, LLDM, and I think that the concept of being able to spread the money out over time when buying a youngster is definately the way to market to those people who are able to do some training on their own. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't have the facilities for raising a youngster without boarding.

The problem I have heard from hunter people especially with regards to unbroke prospects is why should they spend thousands on an unbroke horse when they can go to the racetrack and spend hundreds for a prospect that has already carried a rider?

Just something else to think about...

LLDM

Jan. 3, 2005, 07:57 AM

Caravel - No sporthorse breeder will ever be able to compete directly with the OTTB market. These horses are, by definition, sold at a loss.

There are some very nice horses that are OTT, I know, I have some. But they are very different than my homebred, carefully raised and started WBs. I think we can agree that there is much training to be undone with an OTTB and they are generally riskier regarding for future soundness in many cases. Nor are they likely to be any more suitable for a given discipline.

IMHO anyone who wants to really learn how to ride should reschool at least one OTTB - They will teach you plenty about riding!

But this is yet a different market segment. I do think we get buyers who have "aged out" of the OTTB market (I know I have http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif) and want to start with a fresh sheet on the training and soundness fronts.

Now you have inspired me! I should add that to my list of qualifying questions when screening potential clients. "How you ever reschooled a fresh OTTB?" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SCFarm

Tannenwald Trakehner

Jan. 3, 2005, 08:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by van:
I can tell you that we can raise a youngster to 4 years of age, have it broke, and jumping little jumps for less than $8,000 barring any medical disasters. How? Well, for starters, our customers grow their own hay. They also have a staff (my husband and I included), that handles every aspect of the horses care other than major medical... we have a farrier, people that do the ground work and break them,people that can show and campaign the nicer ones, etc on salary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This part fascinated me (and I haven't read the rest of this thread yet, so please excuse me if this has already been revisited).

I hate for people to get the wrong impression so I hope that you will expand on this a little. The cost of raising a youngster is far higher than that for me and everyone I talk with, so I cannot understand how you can raise a horse to 4 for less than $8K. This is something that is beyond the ability of the typical breeder.

First, are the horses being bred there, so that you have the cost of "production" factored in? Stud fees, vets, breeding expenses, amortization of the cost of the mare, her upkeep during the pregnancy?

Even if the young horse fell into your lap for free, I still can't see the less-than-$8000 possibility for raising it and putting training on it for 4 years.

If we are talking about economy of scale, how many horses are these folks raising?

They have a STAFF, of professional trainers, a farrier, etc? Wow. They must be raising many more horses than most of us are in order to pay salaries, unemployment/worker's compensation, and benefits and come out ahead of purchasing services from these individuals.

Are you factoring in equipment, routine medical (vaccinations, dewormings, dental), maintenance on the horse accomodations (fencing, stabling), bedding, etc?

They grow their own hay, OK, but are you factoring in the costs of labor, machinery acquisition and maintenance, soil amendments, land taxes, amortization of land acquisition, etc? Are you considering the foregone earnings of the owner or other "free labor" and foregone loss of income from the land? When you consider these things, do they really come out better financially? Or are you just considering the hay to be "free" because it is grown there?

If they truly have a model that allows them to raise a young horse for so little, more power to them. But I suspect that many of the "real" expenses are being overlooked.

Obviously the cost of production and raising is what drives much of the pricing for horses, so I think this is really important to discuss. If it is presumed that everyone can raise a horse from foal to 4 and get it started for $8000, it makes it look like people have a much higher margin on even the relatively inexpensive $15-$20K horses started over fences.

Caravel

Jan. 3, 2005, 10:02 AM

Yes I know, LLDM. I have had OTTBs also, and actually have probably made more profit retraining and selling them instead of raising Holsteiners! I don't know that the benefits of a sound breeding program can really compete with the cost savings of buying off the track, regardless of the pitfalls, unless we as breeders can offer horses that are sound and already going quietly under saddle. Fortunately I can make this work with help from my very reasonably priced trainer and the juniors and amateurs that are forever grateful to have nice horses to ride and show but I would love to sell them as weanlings and get a return on my investment 3 years sooner.

The europeans don't have the huge numbers of OTTBs to compete with, and I think that is part of the reason young horses sell better over there. If anyone has any ideas how to make the younger warmbloods more appealing, I'd love to hear it, but I honestly don't think showing in hand is going to target the right buyers. Sorry. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Oldenburg Mom

Jan. 3, 2005, 10:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Caravel:
...but I honestly don't think showing in hand is going to target the right buyers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The way it is now, I agree. The chief problem, IMHO, is convincing people that in-hand shows are an excellent way to meet breeders, and to see what they are achieving.

I am actually going to be trying something different this year at one of the dressage in-hand shows: production of a "Sales Book". This is the idea: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>IF you have a horse entered into ANY class at the breed show, I will list TWO horses you have which are 'on your farm'. The Sales book will be handed out with the program to everyone who comes to the show. No, I'm not charging anyone for this. Each horse will have two pages, and the owners can submit anything they like. I will have a form to fill out in order that the information is consistent. I am thinking, besides a picture, any show record, pedigree, breeder contact information, breeder comments on the movement, etc. of the horse. And the price.

No, I am not going to earn a penny on this. No, I am not promoting a business. I am doing this because I believe, in my heart of hearts, that breed shows are THE most valuable place to find horses, whether under saddle, green, unbacked, schoolmaster, hunters, jumpers, etc. etc.

And I believe this so very strongly, I am willing to put my time, effort ... and yes, money where my mouth is. This is going to *cost* me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, and one more thing. This is not an original idea. At the breed shows in France, they do about the same thing.

The only problem I have with this is getting the word out to any buyers.

But, as was said in "Seabiscuit: Rome was not built in a day--brick by brick, my citizens, brick by brick.

LLDM

Jan. 3, 2005, 11:03 AM

Caravel - I don't think showing in hand is a panacea. In fact I am a recent convert to the idea. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But I do think that horse shows that have a day dedicated to these and young horse performance classes are the biggest thing we have to compete with the German Auction system. It is very educational for people to see the progession from weanlings to young performance horses. And it is more cost effective to show at a few of these than tryig to campaign a youngster against mature horses.

Like Scott Hassler said at the USDF symposium, it doesn't work for every horse, but it is good experience for them. I am a much bigger fan of Materiale, the new young event horse series and the (already in the rulebook) young hunter under saddle type classes. Between them all, there IS something for almost everyone.

SCFarm

Oldenburg Mom

Jan. 3, 2005, 11:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tiki:
Breeders are very willing to talk about their horses, and most of them will happily refer you to a friend or other breeder if they don't have just what you want.

Everyone always says they have to travel too far in this country to see one horse here and one horse there. Come to the breed shows. You can see anywhere from around 100 to well over 400 (at Devon) all in one place, all shiny and braided, all ages and stages, with the breeders there to answer your questions, and with the judges opinion to help you pick one out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tiki, I just noticed this post of yours and I couldn't agree more.

I have people at my barn say to me "Next time I'm looking for a horse I'm going to come see you." Well, guess what I'm going to tell them (duh.)

The people I took to Morven Park last year were floored, just floored by what they saw ... and the accessibility of the breeders. AND, the whole thing is ... it's not necessarily what's at the show. Noooooooo. It's what they've got a HOME. HOME people. The ones they've got under saddle. At home. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Caravel

Jan. 3, 2005, 01:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LLDM:

Like Scott Hassler said at the USDF symposium, it doesn't work for every horse, but it is good experience for them. I am a much bigger fan of Materiale, the new young event horse series and the (already in the rulebook) young hunter under saddle type classes. Between them all, there IS something for almost everyone.

SCFarm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is where we are going to be able to make this work. Devon is a little different since there are so many under saddle classes, and it was nice that (at least when my horse went in 1996...) that there were asterisks next to the names of horses that were for sale, but in my experience (and I am just one person with just one person's experience...) I've shown the same horse in hand, in dressage, in hunters, in jumpers and in equitation and I can tell you that I have had people interested in what I had available resulting from showing in each discipline EXCEPT in-hand (and it wasn't that she was unsuccessful in hand). Believe me, I wish it was different from a financial standpoint but I didn't see much of a payoff for my in-hand efforts. I'm certainly not saying it is/should be this way for everyone but for my program I have decided to go in a different direction and thought someone might be able to learn from my experience.

Oldenburg Mom - I think what you are doing is great and you should be commended for your efforts. You are certainly a great ambassador for the in-hand shows. I hope that you achieve success through your efforts and I hope that you don't take my experiences personally, they are just a different view (and maybe it's a different story from when I was showing in hand almost 10 years ago) maybe in the future, with the changes you are helping to implement showing in hand will work for my program. I certainly hope so! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oldenburg Mom

Jan. 3, 2005, 01:30 PM

Hey Amanda,

Nope, I don't take this stuff personally. I believe, wholeheartedly, your experience is VERY VERY typical: breeders populate breed shows, not buyers.

So, let's change it.

All it take is an effort ... if I could ever stop POSTING on these THREADS I'd finally get some articles written that I want to try and have published in PH and DT (CoTH too, maybe?) specifically about trying to turn breed shows into sales venues.

You know, I've come across so many many breeders, and individuals too, that are just looking for a good home for their critters. Money, while very very important, in a lot of cases, is somewhat flexible. But unless you know the breeders, who are a pretty networked group, you're going to miss out.

Like I've said over and over and over again. It's the BREEDERS who know where all the bodies are buried. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Edited to correct my spelling... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Fairview Horse Center

Jan. 3, 2005, 01:37 PM

Dressage and Hunter "Conformation horses" are not the same. Movement in Hunter "line" horses is not a big part of the judging. It may be used to separate the best conformation youngsters. In sporthorse "line" classes, conformation is only 30%. If you have a less than stellar put together horse that has phenominal gaits, it is going to beat a "perfect" horse that has average gaits every time (at least IF it shows off).

The funniest thing is that I have horses that I see as HUGE dressagey movers when they are motivated to use their power, but Hunter trainers tell me that their gaits would be nice Hunter if they see them in their "relaxed and easy" way of going. They may not win the hack, but may get a piece of it. So, YES, I think Hunter people would find LOTS of what they are looking for at Sporthorse breed classes.

I would not breed horses if I didn't think that I can reliably produce ALL of my youngsters to be able to place in SHBS classes. We don't just take "the cream of the crop". I usually take my entire crop to Devon. I want to expose them to the show environment, and have them be seen by possible buyers. Next year, I hope to take one to each of the earlier shows in my area. I do think you will fine nice prospects in several price ranges.