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View Full Version : check out youtube videos of falls and VEST!!



boppin along
Apr. 25, 2010, 09:19 PM
Wow just wow!!! This video by "Andria Pooley" shows all three BAD falls at the same fence and each rider wearing the new vest. I think it looks like it saved them from far more serious injuries.
Brilliant and what a perfect endorsement for the company that makes them.
Which BTW they are using as an endorsement but Hey that is a GOOD thing!!!!
I think you can just type in "Oliver Townend Rolex 2010" to get it.

ens0613
Apr. 25, 2010, 09:24 PM
I'm going to link directly to the video, because I think it's so helpful (but also pretty graphic).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxWZ2uKLQb4

boppin along
Apr. 25, 2010, 09:30 PM
Thanks, I didn't know how to do that and after watching it several more times, it clearly shows how this vest saved them. Especially Oliver!

RAyers
Apr. 25, 2010, 09:34 PM
Uh, first, you need to look closer. OT vest was not fully inflated during the crushing blow. The vest that saved him was the standard body protector underneath. The same can be said for the other riders as well.

How can you say it is clear how the vest saved them? Did they have the same crash without the underlying body protector? Were the falls done over with no protection to determine the likelihood of injury or the potential extent of injury?

Even the makers of the vests admit that these vests do NOT protect riders in these types of falls. A deformable structure such as the air vests CANNOT prevent flexural or crushing injuries.

Back in the 1970s I had a rotational fall over a log fence and I walked away. Does that mean my fishnet shirt is as good as any body protector?

Reed

SevenDogs
Apr. 25, 2010, 09:43 PM
Which BTW they are using as an endorsement but Hey that is a GOOD thing!!!!


Really?!?... I found it exploitive, sensationalistic, and misleading, not to mention distasteful and bad for the sport. I think it is a big leap to use these falls as a marketing tool and they worded things very carefully to avoid fraud.

JanWeber
Apr. 25, 2010, 09:44 PM
I promised myself I'd stay out of this - because I'e already made my decision. I realize that it would be desirable to have thorough and documented safety testing of these types of products - but the industry doesn't seem to be structured in such a way as to facilitate that. For those concerned about the cost - it's less than a year of car insurance (at least in NJ...) and for those who are not convinced that the air vests won't exacerbate an impact injury - well, there are still people out there who won't wear seatbelts because they're worried about thoracic trauma... It just seems foolish not to TRY to protect yourself as much as possible XC.

SevenDogs
Apr. 25, 2010, 09:47 PM
Which BTW they are using as an endorsement but Hey that is a GOOD thing!!!!


Once again, I hope these vests turn out to be the greatest thing ever and when the evidence is there that they prevent injury WITHOUT the risk of doing more harm in catastrophic situations, I will be the first one to whip out my checkbook.

But this kind of hard, dishonest marketing makes me more and more cautious. Posting rider's nightmares on youtube and taking credit for them walking away, is wrong.

Bravestrom
Apr. 25, 2010, 09:51 PM
I am not to familiar with the pins - but should this fence have had them and if it did why didn't it collapse - would they remove this fence from future competitions because of the three falls?

sorry a bit off topic but just what I thought when I watched the videos.

RAyers
Apr. 25, 2010, 09:58 PM
....and for those who are not convinced that the air vests won't exacerbate an impact injury - well, there are still people out there who won't wear seatbelts because they're worried about thoracic trauma... It just seems foolish not to TRY to protect yourself as much as possible XC.


Sorry Jan, but I have a few contacts to some cases in the UK that possibly indicate injury exacerbation.

Using your logic I bought an EXO. It is rigid to prevent crushing. It meets BETA 2000 and ASTM standards for puncture resistance. It is a fail-SAFE system in that it continually works and does not rely on a mechanical system to activate.

If told I had to have a horse land on me (as they have in the past) I'll take an EXO or Reiterprotektor system long before any air vest system.

Reed

JER
Apr. 25, 2010, 09:58 PM
Wow just wow!!! This video by "Andria Pooley" shows all three BAD falls at the same fence and each rider wearing the new vest. I think it looks like it saved them from far more serious injuries.
Brilliant and what a perfect endorsement for the company that makes them.
Which BTW they are using as an endorsement but Hey that is a GOOD thing!!!!
I think you can just type in "Oliver Townend Rolex 2010" to get it.

If you're not a shill, you've been drinking some serious Kool-Aid.

SevenDogs
Apr. 25, 2010, 09:59 PM
I promised myself I'd stay out of this - because I'e already made my decision. I realize that it would be desirable to have thorough and documented safety testing of these types of products - but the industry doesn't seem to be structured in such a way as to facilitate that. For those concerned about the cost - it's less than a year of car insurance (at least in NJ...) and for those who are not convinced that the air vests won't exacerbate an impact injury - well, there are still people out there who won't wear seatbelts because they're worried about thoracic trauma... It just seems foolish not to TRY to protect yourself as much as possible XC.

... and there are those of us that think it is foolish to use a safety product with no data supporting their safety just because the upper level riders use them.

"Trying to protect yourself" is worthless if they turn out to be dangerous in certain situations that have not yet been proven.

Meredith Clark
Apr. 25, 2010, 10:00 PM
Once again, I hope these vests turn out to be the greatest thing ever and when the evidence is there that they prevent injury WITHOUT the risk of doing more harm in catastrophic situations, I will be the first one to whip out my checkbook.

But this kind of hard, dishonest marketing makes me more and more cautious. Posting rider's nightmares on youtube and taking credit for them walking away, is wrong.

My feelings exactly.

I was showing my mom the video of the falls and when it got to the end and showed the air vest endorsement I was embarrassed that I had taken part in such propaganda.

RAyers
Apr. 25, 2010, 10:01 PM
Remember these are the SAME people who took credit for Faith Cook walking away from her rotational fall and neglecting to say she had a broken neck and vertebrae.

Reed

JER
Apr. 25, 2010, 10:21 PM
Remember these are the SAME people who took credit for Faith Cook walking away from her rotational fall and neglecting to say she had a broken neck and vertebrae.

Reed

They actually said she walked away 'uninjured.'

boppin along
Apr. 25, 2010, 10:40 PM
Uh, first, you need to look closer. OT vest was not fully inflated during the crushing blow. The vest that saved him was the standard body protector underneath. The same can be said for the other riders as well.

How can you say it is clear how the vest saved them? Did they have the same crash without the underlying body protector? Were the falls done over with no protection to determine the likelihood of injury or the potential extent of injury?

Even the makers of the vests admit that these vests do NOT protect riders in these types of falls. A deformable structure such as the air vests CANNOT prevent flexural or crushing injuries.

Back in the 1970s I had a rotational fall over a log fence and I walked away. Does that mean my fishnet shirt is as good as any body protector?

Reed
OY What a bunch of negativity.
Is your whole life decisions based on data?
No, I am not a "shill" just a person who saw some good come from a new product that seems to have saved a few people from some serious injuries.
And I thought it would be great for others to see it. Nothing More, no secret motives, no connection with the company,
GEEZ Get a life!
But then I see that your life seems to be on this chat thing like every day and so full of "scientific data" OY OY OY Why not try to see the good in this rather than the oooooooo deep dark motives???? How pathetic.

SevenDogs
Apr. 25, 2010, 10:58 PM
GEEZ Get a life!
But then I see that your life seems to be on this chat thing like every day and so full of "scientific data" OY OY OY Why not try to see the good in this rather than the oooooooo deep dark motives???? How pathetic.

Yeah, we certainly wouldn't want to use that icky scientific data to determine if something is safe. Let's just base our decisions on YouTube videos, fraudulent claims, and what the Upper Level Riders do and just "see the good". ...Sure...that's a great idea...

boppin along
Apr. 25, 2010, 11:01 PM
AHHHHHH.... NOW I remember why I stopped reading these.
It's been a while but
Thank you for the reminder!

Kementari
Apr. 25, 2010, 11:10 PM
OY What a bunch of negativity.
Is your whole life decisions based on data?

Now, I'm nowhere NEAR as knowledgeable as Reed, but, in point of fact, when it comes to SAFETY EQUIPMENT, YES, my decisions are based on data.

I've read comparison data on helmets, and choose to wear a brand that comes out better than average in those tests.

When I was given a Tipp Eventer vest, even though it was comfy and The Thing To Wear, I chose to return it and get a CO instead, based on the data that certified vests are safer.

If I had the money, I'd have an EXO, because the data shows it protects best against the most dangerous falls in our sport.

Heck, when I buy a car or even treat a sprained ankle, I do it based on data, not some strange belief in my own psychic powers to make a good decision.

looseringsnaffle
Apr. 25, 2010, 11:11 PM
OY
No, I am not a "shill" just a person who saw some good come from a new product that seems to have saved a few people from some serious injuries.
.
(emphasis mine)

Key word "SEEMS."

Just like that child molester seems like a real nice guy, too, doesn't he? :D

Duramax
Apr. 25, 2010, 11:17 PM
I was at the coffin when Dorothy and Radio Flyer fell. It was nearly the same exact thing- horse catches knee and then flips- almost identical to what was happening at the Hollow. (Although Dorothy said that she took one tug too many- so easy to do!!) I'm inclined to think that having very vertical rails as the first element of these combinations is not a good thing- the horse is coming off the ground with its front end right as it sees the next question (down bank or ditch, etc.) and that slows down their take-off or distracts them just enough so that they catch a leg. What about a "rampier" or more forgiving first element of these technical combinations?

hb
Apr. 26, 2010, 01:22 AM
In Oliver's fall he stayed pretty close to the horse until it rolled over him and down the step. So he may have had broken bones BEFORE the horse was far enough away for the vest to inflate. It doesn't seem very good for a vest to inflate with that much force on already broken bones.

riderboy
Apr. 26, 2010, 08:13 AM
Obviously there's a void in the market of safety gear. We all know nature abhors a vacuum so it is filling up. The air vest folks are being very successful at marketing their vest, I still don't understand why there has been no parallel marketing and development effort by the makers of rigid vests. They were NOWHERE to be seen at Rolex. Yes, it would be nice if everyone understood the importance of safety testing and the use of good studies to guide their decisions but in this area there are none. Instead what we see at a show like Rolex is rider after rider after rider going by and wearing what? Not a rigid vest but an inflatable one. Unfortunately spin and hype and maybe a little bit of truth worked in do convince people to act in certain ways. I mean, just look who we elect to public office!

leslie645
Apr. 26, 2010, 08:45 AM
Oliver thanked his Inflatable Jacket and his helmet for saving his life.

wildlifer
Apr. 26, 2010, 09:46 AM
He may have done so, but he is hardly objective. His helmet certainly did! I watched the video of all three falls at that jump -- at least two of the riders stayed so close to the horse on the way down, their vest did not appear to be inflated at first impact. There appeared to be little to no additional protection provided by the inflatable vest and all of the protection came from the conventional foam vest and helmet.

Gnep
Apr. 26, 2010, 10:00 AM
have alook at this picture, it is the moment when the horse hits him, have a close look at the vest and compare it to the way it looks when they take it of him ( video ).
Decide for yourself if the vest is fully deployed or not, or if it is deploying.
And have a good look at what broke his bones, and take a good look if the horse has landed jet.

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/0,1518,691136,00.html

CANTEREOIN
Apr. 26, 2010, 10:16 AM
I see the vest saving his life. It kept his neck stable... that would have been a disaster of immense proportions.

boppin along
Apr. 26, 2010, 10:26 AM
Oliver thanked his Inflatable Jacket and his helmet for saving his life.


UH HUH--UH HUH yeah yeah!

BTW Was Jan Bynny wearing one when she fell at PT?
If not, bet she will now.

RAyers
Apr. 26, 2010, 11:16 AM
UH HUH--UH HUH yeah yeah!

BTW Was Jan Bynny wearing one when she fell at PT?
If not, bet she will now.

Yes she was but her injuries were of the nature no vest would have prevented.

I am still amazed at how a person can say the vest kept OT's neck stable? If you look at the picture posted by Gnep, the head and neck are twisted such that the collar has no bearing, and given that the vest is only partially inflated, even less so.

As a matter of fact, if you look at the image you will see OT's HELMET is what kept his neck from hyperflexing as it is resting
ON the log. The collar of the vest is not in contact with his head. The force of the crush is going through his face to the back of the helmet and into the log.

FYI, I used NIH Image J to enhance the image where OT's head is contacting the log.

Reed

JER
Apr. 26, 2010, 11:35 AM
I see the vest saving his life. It kept his neck stable... that would have been a disaster of immense proportions.

You know, you can hold your neck as stable as you like and you will still suffer crush injuries if you're hit with enough force. That neck pillow just isn't capable of what you claim.

FrittSkritt
Apr. 26, 2010, 01:36 PM
Anyone else find it very interesting that P.Dutty wasn't wearing his air vest at Rolex? (At least in the photos I saw.) IIRC, he was one of the first to sing its praises...

Gnep
Apr. 26, 2010, 05:10 PM
nobody has realy taken a very close look and compared an actual inflated vest with the vest in the picture. Chest, one still can see the deviders, hip wrinckelt material, compare that to a fully deploye vest. He hit the ground, got rolled over by his horse and when the horse is about to get of him the pin gets pulled out of the cartridge. That is the moment the picture captured.
That was one lucky dude.


The other 2, they are past the horses ears, way past and the vest has not jet deployed, the rest nobody can see on those videos

wabadou
Apr. 26, 2010, 07:21 PM
Holy Cr*p!! Along with all the other things that worked in his favor, he is so very fortunate that he got a face full of "arse" ( muscle ) and not a hipbone to the face....
It was a steep little rise up to the vertical, my sense was that the horses had no idea what was coming (drops) until they committed to the vertical and a fair number who were suprised by what was on the other side wanted to suck back and change their minds...

riderboy
Apr. 26, 2010, 08:54 PM
Holy Cr*p!! Along with all the other things that worked in his favor, he is so very fortunate that he got a face full of "arse" ( muscle ) and not a hipbone to the face....
It was a steep little rise up to the vertical, my sense was that the horses had no idea what was coming (drops) until they committed to the vertical and a fair number who were suprised by what was on the other side wanted to suck back and change their minds...

Yeah, someone made a good point on the other thread about the quality of the canter she saw coming into the Hollow. She used Lauren Kieffer as an example of a good powerful coffin canter to the fence (go Lauren!) and felt the others were a bit flat and fast to it, which may have contribute to the falls. I haven't seen the videos. It's a damn difficult sport at that level.