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View Full Version : Another Ammy question......really sorry about this



GPjumper
Apr. 25, 2010, 10:50 AM
Alright, so I'm going to give you guys as many details as possible to make this easy. The BO at the place I board my horse needs horses ridden (just hacking around to help get them fit after the winter), I am looking for horses to ride. I will not be being paid for this at all. If I do show any of her horses, I would be paying the show bills myself and would most likely be paying her a horse rental fee for the use of her school horses for the day. I would not be showing any of these horses in "amatuer" classes, the only horse I would be showing in ammy classes would be my own horse in the jumpers. I am not an employee of the barn, and I pay full board on my horse as well as pay for lessons (on my horse and others). Any thoughts....really sorry for asking another ammy question!

Silk
Apr. 25, 2010, 10:58 AM
Not sure what your question is....are you asking if riding the horses at home still allows you to show as an ammy on your own horse? I do not believe it hurts your ammy status at all, unless I am missing something.

Lucassb
Apr. 25, 2010, 11:01 AM
As long as you are not being paid (and that means not only cash, but getting reduced board, lessons etc) you are still an amateur.

GPjumper
Apr. 25, 2010, 11:15 AM
I will be riding horses at home and showing some school horses for experience (I will be paying the entries on the school horses) would I have to give up Ammy status even though all money is going out of my pocket, just because I don't own or formally lease the horses.

PineTreeFarm
Apr. 25, 2010, 11:24 AM
) would I have to give up Ammy status even though all money is going out of my pocket, just because I don't own or formally lease the horses.

If the question just involves ownership or leasing the horses then it's no.
A large percent of the folks in the Adult Amateur Hunters or Jumpers do not own or lease the horse they are showing. That was the point of those divisions, you don't need to own the horse.
I suspect there is more to this....

findeight
Apr. 25, 2010, 11:34 AM
Could get sticky with those trainer owned horses unless you are very careful to pay ALL charges related to the show. Transportation, stall...everything. Anything you would pay for on a personal horse. If trainer transports and stalls horse and you just pay for entry fees? That could be an issue.

You could run into some problems in some classes in some zones if you show in an Ammy division and also show horses owned by others in other divisions. You'd need to check. carefully.

If you ride as an Ammy or A/O and are openly seen to ride and show other non owned horses for your trainer? You can expect to be questioned.

Go Fish
Apr. 25, 2010, 12:16 PM
I'm not a rules junkie, so I have an issue. A couple of years ago I was working and had to miss Friday's classes in the AA hunters. A friend showed my horse on Friday. I showed him Saturday and Sunday. I paid the entries. Was that a no-no? Nobody batted an eye.

Trixie
Apr. 25, 2010, 12:32 PM
If you ride as an Ammy or A/O and are openly seen to ride and show other non owned horses for your trainer? You can expect to be questioned.

Maybe, but if they aren't breaking the rules, they aren't breaking the rules. The burden of proof is on the complainer to prove, and if they're not breaking rules, how is someone going to prove that they are?

Remember, the following does NOT affect amateur status according to the rulebook:


Accepting reimbursement for any expenses directly related to the horse (i.e. farrier/vet bills, entries) however, does not include travel,hotel, room and board or equipment.

OP, as long as you are careful not to accept anything that could be construed as remuneration, you're fine. It's perfectly acceptable to ride other people's horses. It's also acceptable to show them in the amateur divisions, if you want, as long as it's not the A/Os.

GPjumper
Apr. 25, 2010, 01:47 PM
alright thanks! I was under the impression that you couldn't compete others horses and still be an ammy. I wouldn't be accepting anything, AND I figure there are people out there obviously competing other people's horses (while the owners are footing the bill).

Trixie
Apr. 25, 2010, 06:53 PM
Nope - you just can't get paid to compete them or accept remuneration in other capacities not related to the horse. You should be fine.

I ride and compete horses that belong to others. I'm just very careful never to accept a cent and to know the rules.

Do double check the rules on divisions that you cross-enter, though, and make sure you're being careful not to break any of those - for instance, the VHSA's AA rules state:


A rider in the Adult Amateur Division is not eligible to compete in any class where fence heights exceed 3'3" with the exception of the Children’s/Adult Jumper Division.

So if you're going to compete one of trainer's horses in say, a 3'6" or a 4' division, you wouldn't be eligible for the AAs. Just something else to keep in mind.

meupatdoes
Apr. 25, 2010, 07:25 PM
I will be riding horses at home and showing some school horses for experience (I will be paying the entries on the school horses) would I have to give up Ammy status even though all money is going out of my pocket, just because I don't own or formally lease the horses.

No.

As long as you are not getting ANY perks (such as reduced board, which you said you are not) or ANY other compensation, you are fine.

You can also catch ride every last one of those horses in the amateur divisions, even if the trainer pays the horse's bills (bills that go TO THE HORSE like entries and stalls are fine, your hotel bill is not) and be A-OK.

Go kick some heinie.

meupatdoes
Apr. 25, 2010, 07:27 PM
I'm not a rules junkie, so I have an issue. A couple of years ago I was working and had to miss Friday's classes in the AA hunters. A friend showed my horse on Friday. I showed him Saturday and Sunday. I paid the entries. Was that a no-no? Nobody batted an eye.

Totally fine, as long as you didn't pay your friend.

GPjumper
Apr. 25, 2010, 07:50 PM
you have no idea how happy that makes me! I am far from a professional and am just looking for extra time in the saddle riding as many horses as possible...and like I said, the only financial movement will be a net loss on my part :lol:

Annandale
Apr. 26, 2010, 05:32 AM
Trixie mentioned that "A rider in the Adult Amateur Division is not eligible to compete in any class where fence heights exceed 3'3" with the exception of the Children’s/Adult Jumper Division."

Actually, I believe in some Zones amateurs are allowed to show both an Adult Amateur horse and an AO horse.

Trixie
Apr. 26, 2010, 10:04 AM
That's why I specified that those are the VHSA's rules.

It's just something to keep an eye on when you're showing more than one horse - knowing the rules of your zone and what you can and can't do.

PlantersPunch
Apr. 26, 2010, 10:25 AM
The only catch is if you show your horse in AO classes, you're not allowed to show other horses you don't own. As long as you aren't showing your horse in the AOs, you should be fine. I'm pretty sure this is a new (USEF/USHJA) rule for this year.

gottagrey
Apr. 26, 2010, 01:03 PM
I believe the OP does not have to pay expenses, unless that is the arrangement they made. Meaning. If I wanted you to show my horse in a AA hunter class, I could certainly pay the expenses, I just cannot pay you. I could pay stabling, shipping, entires etc. You can also ride your BO's horses, and she can pay all the expenses except not pay you to ride. I don't believe the rule is that you have to pay all fees related to showing in order to be an amateur..

Rockfish
Apr. 27, 2010, 11:57 AM
[QUOTE=PlantersPunch;4828954] As long as you aren't showing your horse in the AOs, you should be fine. [QUOTE]


You must to show your own horse (or one owned by your family) in the A/Os. That's the whole point of A/O, I think the rule your are refering to is the one that states, if you show your horse in the A/O's, the horse you show in the A/A's must also be owned by you.

findeight
Apr. 27, 2010, 12:07 PM
The only catch is if you show your horse in AO classes, you're not allowed to show other horses you don't own. As long as you aren't showing your horse in the AOs, you should be fine. I'm pretty sure this is a new (USEF/USHJA) rule for this year.

I believe that is correct. If you show A/O you cannot show anything you don't own in another division. And that is fairly new...but don't know if it pertains to non rated classes (modified etc.) at rated shows. It can get complicated.

Some zones have differing rules on cross entering, so do some regional affiliates and non affiliated organizations. You need to check first.

gottagrey
Apr. 27, 2010, 12:30 PM
Shucks I think if you show in A/O you can barely SiT on another horse at the show... IMO the A/O rules are borderline absurd..

When in doubt about Amatuer rules always a good idea to email USEF and then KEEP THEIR RESPONSE W/ you (like in your coggins folder or something) just in case there is a problem you can whip out the response/answer from USEF.

I had an issue w/ being a member of USEA vs USHJA. At that time if you were a member of USEA you did not need to join USHJA... I had a confirmation email from USEF stating that which saved me lots of fees... Note: I'm pretty sure that is no longer the case now..

NorthFaceFarm
Apr. 27, 2010, 01:22 PM
Can an ammie ride a horse for another owner, and have that owner pay show fees for that horse?

SmileItLooksGoodOnYou
Apr. 28, 2010, 12:29 AM
Trixie mentioned that "A rider in the Adult Amateur Division is not eligible to compete in any class where fence heights exceed 3'3" with the exception of the Children’s/Adult Jumper Division."

Actually, I believe in some Zones amateurs are allowed to show both an Adult Amateur horse and an AO horse.

Most places have a cross entry rule over 3'3 for the same horse/rider combo showing in Child/Adult hunters with the exception of eq classes up to 3'6.

I would have shown my younger guy in the AA hunters and jumpers before I bought him if I could have.

Now I can do the AO hunters and AA or AO jumpers depending on how we feel after two days of showing in open classes.

Janet
Apr. 28, 2010, 01:19 AM
I believe that is correct. If you show A/O you cannot show anything you don't own in another division. And that is fairly new...but don't know if it pertains to non rated classes (modified etc.) at rated shows. It can get complicated.
I don't know what your definition of "relatively new" is, but that rule has been around for A/O HUNTERS for at least 20 years.

What IS new, is that the same rule now applies to A/O JUMPERS.

Janet
Apr. 28, 2010, 01:27 AM
[quote=PlantersPunch;4828954] As long as you aren't showing your horse in the AOs, you should be fine. [quote]


You must to show your own horse (or one owned by your family) in the A/Os. That's the whole point of A/O, I think the rule your are refering to is the one that states, if you show your horse in the A/O's, the horse you show in the A/A's must also be owned by you.

I believe that you can ride a horse you OWN in the A/O hunters, and a horse you LEASE (USEF registered lease) in the A/A hunters at the same show.

The wording is
An amateur who competes for a person outside of his/her family may not compete in a
class restricted to Amateur Owners at the same competition.

It doesn't explicitly say OWNED by a person outside his/her family. And I have been told that the USEF interprets it that , if you lease a horse, you are not "competing for" another person.

But call the USEF, don't take my word for it.

Trixie
Apr. 28, 2010, 09:08 AM
Can an ammie ride a horse for another owner, and have that owner pay show fees for that horse?

Sure, as long as the ammie isn't receiving remuneration as defined by the rule.

NorthFaceFarm
Apr. 28, 2010, 01:47 PM
Yeah, there is no remuneration for the riding. I was just never sure if the entry fees themselves could constitute remuneration.

Trixie
Apr. 28, 2010, 02:27 PM
See above - entries are fine, hotel is not. If it's an eq class I imagine it would be a "no" as it's a rider expense, not helping the horse.