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View Full Version : Stating a proactive opinion and then locking the thread is really bad sportsmanship



Snowbird
Feb. 21, 2004, 05:05 AM
Kathy, whatever your postion on any topic where there is freedom of speach there is a right to a diverse opinion.

You make a pronouncement with no supporting evidence and then behave badly by locking the thread so your pronouncements stand alone and any difference of opinion cannot have an equal opportunity to be heard. That is not democracy and prejudicial to the case I am sure that KK would want to make.

Whatever anyone's opinion may be it is equally justified to be heard. In autocratic governments that's not so and any forum which disagrees is shut down. This does NOT speak well to the value of your proactive stance and I certainly agree it is not advantageous to tell parents that all the parties at all the shows are loaded with drugs.

In my 32 years of all level competition I have never seen or smelled anything that looked like drugs at any party where I was invited or even just attended. Certainly, there were no baggies full of stuff out on the tables.

You must travel in a different circle of friends so please do not assume that any of us might have your experiences and be somewhere that drugs would be used, handled, sold or given away.

As a grandmother if I thought this was so you can bet I wouldn't want my sweet little granddaughter anywhere near such goings on. Nor would I want her to have an unpleasant experience with a sexual offender.

While it is a good thing that it may not be a serious charge against KK, there is no reason to "CELEBRATE" when an admitted addict was in such an environmemnt, and a confessed sexual offender of a minor child is still able to make contact with children. This is a head's up wake-up call that there is a problem and this time everyone was fortunate. The next offender might not not be as obvious.

If you can't stand the heat in the kitchen don't turn on the stove.

People may wish to feel that IF what you say is true and isn't just hearsay that it really doesn't change the situation at all as to the past; and they are entitled not to be called names or be publicly castigated by you or anyone else. And, I assume you meant lynching party and not lunching party. I did not see or read any evidence of anyone starting a "lynching" party. I saw a dialog between concerned people as to how to deal with such things in the future.

Parents in this case have to also be considered and their concerns are not addressed by the Release of KK.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Feb. 21, 2004 at 08:26 AM.]

Snowbird
Feb. 21, 2004, 05:05 AM
Kathy, whatever your postion on any topic where there is freedom of speach there is a right to a diverse opinion.

You make a pronouncement with no supporting evidence and then behave badly by locking the thread so your pronouncements stand alone and any difference of opinion cannot have an equal opportunity to be heard. That is not democracy and prejudicial to the case I am sure that KK would want to make.

Whatever anyone's opinion may be it is equally justified to be heard. In autocratic governments that's not so and any forum which disagrees is shut down. This does NOT speak well to the value of your proactive stance and I certainly agree it is not advantageous to tell parents that all the parties at all the shows are loaded with drugs.

In my 32 years of all level competition I have never seen or smelled anything that looked like drugs at any party where I was invited or even just attended. Certainly, there were no baggies full of stuff out on the tables.

You must travel in a different circle of friends so please do not assume that any of us might have your experiences and be somewhere that drugs would be used, handled, sold or given away.

As a grandmother if I thought this was so you can bet I wouldn't want my sweet little granddaughter anywhere near such goings on. Nor would I want her to have an unpleasant experience with a sexual offender.

While it is a good thing that it may not be a serious charge against KK, there is no reason to "CELEBRATE" when an admitted addict was in such an environmemnt, and a confessed sexual offender of a minor child is still able to make contact with children. This is a head's up wake-up call that there is a problem and this time everyone was fortunate. The next offender might not not be as obvious.

If you can't stand the heat in the kitchen don't turn on the stove.

People may wish to feel that IF what you say is true and isn't just hearsay that it really doesn't change the situation at all as to the past; and they are entitled not to be called names or be publicly castigated by you or anyone else. And, I assume you meant lynching party and not lunching party. I did not see or read any evidence of anyone starting a "lynching" party. I saw a dialog between concerned people as to how to deal with such things in the future.

Parents in this case have to also be considered and their concerns are not addressed by the Release of KK.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Feb. 21, 2004 at 08:26 AM.]

CoolMeadows
Feb. 21, 2004, 05:16 AM
I have to say the "no charges" comment completely surprised me. If the drugs really weren't KK's, then good for him that he's off scott-free. I know someone who was arrested and charged because police found a straw with coccaine residue in his shared apartment. They didn't care that he said it wasn't his, that he just lived there. That's very trusting of that Florida police department, they aren't usually so lenient when dealing with someone on probation, or with priors.

www.coolmeadows.net (http://www.coolmeadows.net)

LucianCephus
Feb. 21, 2004, 05:49 AM
Coolmeadows...

Only time will tell if Mr. Kraus is, indeed, off scot-free. His arrest surely raised several antennae both within and outside of the horseshow community, and it will be interesting to see if he is invited back to WEF (or any of the major venues, for that matter.) It seems that a lot more people are now aware of KK's past, which can't be a good thing. And methinks Mason Phelps would prefer not to take a chance of again facing the press to explain Stadium Jumping's hiring policies.

I won't attempt to predict the reaction from the owners of the web site...they've acted as apologists so far and will probably continue to do so.

So maybe someone could give KK's probabtion officer a subscription to Towerheads?

bitsy
Feb. 21, 2004, 05:55 AM
That thread did not serve the purpose she intended - she should have locked it because it totally got out of contol early on.

I think discussions on the topic are good - I just don't think we should be discussing ANY individual like this on this forum. I think it is up to the "system" and we are not "insiders" and don't know all the facts. It's like reading the Enquirer lately.

All the posters get so emotional and go off on tangents and can't seem to keep it together.

Snowbird
Feb. 21, 2004, 05:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Ken is home tonight, released on his own recognizance that measn NO BAIL was needed. There were "no findings" and therefore there were absolutely no "charges" as it relates to some of the BB posts. He was in a dwelling where there were illegal drugs....not his. After their investigation Ken was released with NO CHARGES!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If someone is cleared I don't think they are released in their own recognisance, I think they are just "free to go". The issue of Bail would not come up for someone who was cleared.

This is simply hearsay at this point and undocumented. If the hearing was postponed, there would be no findings or charges and that would not mean vindication.

There is certainly the issue of supervised probation and access to minors. And, it would be pretty rare that the police would be at the wrong address and not where he actually listed his residence. I'm not knowledgeable about possession but from what we've been told it doesn't clear the case because it's not yours and someone left it in your home or there was a party.

The pity would be that if he did get off and he didn't get treatment for his problems and was still in the same corrupt environment as described by Khobstetter where everyone has drugs at every party.

Battle Scarred Veteran

horse_poor
Feb. 21, 2004, 06:26 AM
being released ROR does NOT mean a person is "off"---it means "we will get together later kids and discuss this, but for now, we are gonna let ya go home without mortgaging your home---but make sure you are somewhere we can get a hold of ya and be sure you are here at such and such time on such and such date"

i echo CM in the fact that wow, it was SOMEONE ELSES so its all over---anyone ever watch cops? MAYBE 1 out of 10 will say, "uh yeah its mine" most of the time its "ITS NOT MINE I SWEAR!" why was i flipping out when my roommate was stashing weed in her closet? well, not only because i was diappointed in her, but in the event the police were ever here and it was found, especially if she happened to not be here, like say she was in, oh in jamaica like she was last time when her kid discovered it, i am sure the police would say "oh ok molly, we will just chat with her when she gets home--you continue your posting on COTH and have a nice day"

methinks i would be getting an inside tour of jail and charged with possession.

now, if it in fact IS/WAS not his, and someone stepped forward and said "hey thats mine"--well wow, thats a pretty cool using person. however, beings that i am a recovering addict myself, i do not know a whole bunch of users that would do such a thing, but perhaps there are one or two of them out there.

so the moral of my story is, i am gonna wait until i see charges dismissed linked with his name instead of ROR before declaring he is "off"

just MHO

molly
*member of just about every clique*
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971

www.oasisequestrian.com (http://www.oasisequestrian.com)

khobstetter
Feb. 21, 2004, 07:03 AM
Snowbird..

bitsy is right...I posted the information I got regarding Ken and his release. I ASSUMED after Erin had to lock the other thread that there would at least be a discussion and NOT a personal attack and set of pot shots...

But I was sadly very wrong...therefore I closed the thread after having a time figuring out how to do that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Your length ramblings and personal attempts to look like a Saint at my expense will not get a rise out of me this morning....I will not respond to another of your lengthy tirates on how perfect you are and all the rest of us are not..

So have a wonderful Saturday there in the East, I am having a GREAT cup of coffee in my yard as I get ready to go to a wonderful business with lots of clients who adore me and the way I function..

Thanks for your opinion BUT I wouldn't trade my stance on the American way for anything..especially not for one of your ramblings..

I closed it because this BB has gotten a bit crazed lately and at time we don't "discuss" or "opin"..

In this case also...as YOU say..I would think I was entitled to post information WITHOUT being personally attacked...it was a thread for information and all of a sudden right off the bat Heidi got personal....so I closed the thread...and now HERE YOU ARE...

wowowowowowowowowowowowow http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

ohnowwhat
Feb. 21, 2004, 07:08 AM
It's opine....... one of my favorite words.

ALF
Feb. 21, 2004, 07:11 AM
I knew I shouldnt opin this thread, but now that I'm here...

If you wanted to make your point you should have left the original thread opin. Heidi was putting words in your mouth.

Edited to add - Erin can probably unlock it if you ask her nicely, which I think you should.

OAK
Feb. 21, 2004, 07:13 AM
YOU GO KHOBSTETTER, You are very right about your opinion, that is what AMERICA is about. Sometimes it doesn't pay to be NICE. Do have a GREAT day!

khobstetter
Feb. 21, 2004, 07:19 AM
Electric Tape..
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you wanted to make your point you should have left the original thread opin. Heidi was putting words in your mouth. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't really want to "make a point", just wanted to pass along information..I really did NOT want another thread like the other one was and it looked EARLY on like that was about to happen ..so I closed it...maybe should have left it open/maybe should have not have..BUT it was late and I didn't want another fighting thread on the BB.

I knew Heidi was putting words in my mouth and I just knew it would spark another awful thread..not my intent.

HEY..thanks for "opine"..never did know how to spell that word and was afraid someone would accuse me of using the trees name in vain.."got it "pine"..hahahahahahahahahahahahaha http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

THANKS....

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

ise@ssl
Feb. 21, 2004, 07:32 AM
What's that old saying - you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas?

Sorry Kathy - your sweeping generalization about drugs/etc. at parties is just that. And from my perspective if you walk in and it's there - YOU WALK OUT!

If it's as bad as you say "around the horse world" then why aren't you taking this matter to the USAE and asking for some "clean up"?

Stating "well this is the way it is"...is IMHO an incomplete concept for a responsible adult without addressing - "here's what we need to do to change it".

Snowbird
Feb. 21, 2004, 07:41 AM
In response to the email you sent me privately you will have to play your games by yourself, I'm not interested. It's hardly a challenge or a debate.

As to being a Saint at your expense..please explain how this is possible. Do you have the authority to award sainthood? Or are you the saint and I'm trying to take it away from you?

If it's the first then God Bless You! and if it's the latter I would never deprive you of your sainthood.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Kachoo
Feb. 21, 2004, 07:54 AM
Hear, hear, Snowbird.

I've ridden in seven different countries and with many different trainers, and I would very much like to think that I've seen a broad cross-section of that very diverse place we call the horse world. That being said, I too would like to emphasize that based on what I have seen, I would never venture to say that drugs are the norm at any party, dinner, or gathering. I've been to a good number of each of these, and not once have I caught the slightest indication that drugs were present anywhere. I won't delude myself and say that it never happens, but it certainly hasn't happened around me yet. Given that so many are professing the same, I have my doubts that drug use at parties, etc. is as rampant among the horsey set as some seem to believe.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!" ~Homer Simpson

Party Rose
Feb. 21, 2004, 08:18 AM
Many of us are somewhat shocked as to the latest turn of events.

I am very sure that there is a good explaination for the actions of the Sheriff's Office. Hopefully it will become to light in the very near future.

Do I see a book deal in the near future?

Snowbird
Feb. 21, 2004, 08:31 AM
Party Rose I would suggest you wait and see, I am certain there will be some positive information and I think it is unlikely that No Charges were filed.

What we have is the optimistic interpretation of second hand hearsay.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Flash44
Feb. 21, 2004, 08:31 AM
Drugs are illegal. If you know someone is doing drugs, or are sharing a house with someone who does drugs, etc, and you do not report it to the police, you are ALLOWING this illegal activity to go on.

I am glad that Ken is out, and I am hoping he was/is not involved in drugs. But I am still skeptical of his judgment of character if he is closely associated with people who are involved with drugs.

Heidi
Feb. 21, 2004, 09:37 AM
So, if, according to some, drugs are widely used and available in the horse world, at parties, shows, barns, et al, what is the trainer's obligation to the parents of the juniors in their care?

While some parents are actively involved in their children's riding career, attending shows, supervising their activities, I imagine that a greater number just write the check and drive their kids to the airport. So, to these less-involved horse parents, do you feel the trainer has an obligation to disclose these illegal activities, to warn parents to what their children may be exposed?

Vandy
Feb. 21, 2004, 10:09 AM
As the one who originally responded to KHobstetter's post - I stand by my original position.

Khobstetter - I think it is admirable that you have stood by your friend - KK probably needs all the help and support he can get right now. But perhaps a better way of supporting him would be working as his counselor, pastor, whatever...and not supporting his participation in an industry that is filled with children.

I for one, would not send my kids to train with the GP rider I "dated" when I was 16. Nor would I send my horses to PV although he is the best trainer I have ever ridden with. And although Khobstetter from what I have seen and heard has lovely horses and is an excellent trainer, and I think her work as a foster mom is truly amazing, I would not send my kids to ride with her either, as she has announced very publically that she can forgive this sex offender and support his continued participation in our sport.

Party Rose
Feb. 21, 2004, 10:18 AM
SNOWBIRD......

I do not think that you read my post correctly, so here it is again.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I am very sure that there is a good explaination for the actions of the Sheriff's Office. Hopefully it will become to light in the very near future. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Snowbird
Feb. 21, 2004, 01:34 PM
You're right I'm sorry and I think we will all be waiting to see what technicality may have saved the day this time.

By the way I understand this may have part of a an even bigger sting operation. I just heard the the Holland America Line had a ship raided by the DEA and they found I think $34 million in drugs on board for delivery. Looks like Florida is getting tough.

Anyone from down there seen it in the newspapers or know anything. It was apparently the day before the raid that involved sexual offenders.

Here is the link to the St.Petersburg Times February 19 was the drug bust in Tampa Bay
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sptimes/index.html?ts=1077403214

Battle Scarred Veteran

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Feb. 21, 2004 at 05:51 PM.]

findeight
Feb. 21, 2004, 02:37 PM
Snowbird, that was a pretty thoughtful original post.

I am going to be 55 in April and was a college student on the West coast in the heyday of the recreational pharmaceutical days and the only non celebrity spouse or kid in my Ammie classes.
Cheerfully admit having too much to drink at a few exhibitor's parties-well past 21-and yet I never saw any baggies of drugs nor observed anybody partaking any illegal substance.

Was it around??? Of course. But hardly laying around to corrupt unsuspecting youth.

It's a problem in our society but is no worse, or better, with the horse show crowd then anywhere else.

I just don't want those BBers who do not show to get all their knowledge about the show environment off here..sometimes from others who read it somewhere else and just parrot gossip.

Whatever the case with KK..don't assume we are all rolling in drugs.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

khobstetter
Feb. 21, 2004, 07:36 PM
You guys are just absolutely amazing...

Vandy
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I would not send my kids to ride with her either, as she has announced very publically that she can forgive this sex offender and support his continued participation in our sport. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I support the American way..not the Lord of the Flies mentality on some of these threads. For you to attempt to slander myself and my busines with you "words" is outragous...I NEVER have "announced publically" that I can "forgive" a sex offender....I have stated that I will let the law do its job and I will not get in a fight here about my stance. Whatever I beleive is for me and my close friends who can handle this conversation without screaming and taking insulting pot shots at my business.

From what I know of YOU and your "opinions" and "views" there in your home territory I would NEVER EVER send a child to ride with you so I guess we have a mutual agreement opinion there.

Obvoiusly you chose to twist words....I support the American system of innocent until PROVEN guilty...

Kachoo

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> that drugs are the norm at any party, dinner, or gathering. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I said was...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> " BUT someone around you probably has that stuff on them...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you think there are not drugs around the show world you must live in a house on a very high hill very far away from reality...DID not say it was the "norm"..I said that someone probably has the stuff on them.

ise...I agree with walking out..that is why I don't go to most of the "parties" ...but just listen to the conversations around the back gate...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If it's as bad as you say "around the horse world" then why aren't you taking this matter to the USAE and asking for some "clean up"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not know you ise BUT if you have been following the BB lately you would know about the convention and the hearings and the suspensions...yet at the convention they refused to discuss it at all, even to the point of people on the committees saying "there is no problem in the jumping world with drugs!!"

I personally asked at the Drugs and Meds meeting that the meeting be left open for the conversations...Dr Lengel wanted to do his report WITHOUT names but the trainers on the committee jumped to their feet and demanded it be done behind closed doors.

I went to everyone I could find...I think we deserve open communication....but the same people run the same meetings and hold the same control..I posted what the young trainer with me said.."The people on the Committees are appointed to handle tough decisions and make tough decisions..what is wrong with them?? Now I really know why there is the problem"..

For your information the vets runing the meeting wanted to let the members be informed of what was happening..they did NOT want to let names out but they said "the information" could go to the membership...NOPE, the meeting was closed.

And at one point I did ask AHSA (now USEF) if there was something they could do about it..their answer was it is up to each show management to handle its shows.

So there you have my most recent post...I LOVE the way people LOVE to put words in my mouth...

SO FOR THOSE WHO CAN'T HEAR ME I WILL SAY IT ONE MORE TIME.....I BELIEVE IN THE AMERICAN SYSTEM AND WITHOUT KNOWING ALL THE FACTS I WILL NOT PASS JUDGEMENT ON THIS SITUATION..I WILL WAIT TILL ALL THE ANSWERS ARE THERE..

None of your ranting, and personal pot shots at me and/or my business will make me change that. WHEN all the information is public I will make an educated decision about where I stand on this...till then I will say over and over..let the courts do their job and don't expect me to get involved in your mass hysteria and rush to judgement about this current situation...

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

ssaymssik
Feb. 21, 2004, 07:46 PM
Ya know knobby, if you'd change that shirt with the bullseye on the back, maybe you wouldn't have to worry about defending yourself.

In school, the little girls who react quickly and emotionally are usually easy targets for antagonistic little boys.

BTW - the following is my sig line http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif...

Stupid people bug me.
STOP!!! Where's that sense of humor???

khobstetter
Feb. 21, 2004, 07:47 PM
Snowbird..

You are getting very close to the edge of slander and laible...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You must travel in a different circle of friends so please do not assume that any of us might have your experiences and be somewhere that drugs would be used, handled, sold or given away. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your pronouncement that in my "experience" I would be somewhere that drugs would be used, handled, sold or given away is not only out of line it is downright slanderous and liabalous.....I DO NOT do drugs, I DO NOT drink AT ALL and I DO NOT hang out where they would be handled, sold or given away.

You are really way to close to a very bad line here.... DO NOT INSINUATE THAT CRAP ABOUT ME....

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

khobstetter
Feb. 21, 2004, 07:50 PM
whatdoyou know..

Thanks for the advice..but I won't change my shirt for these scally wags... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I find them sort of amusing..it is raining here in Southern California and this the best indoor fun I have had in a awhile...

A really good, successful friend has a wonderful quip he uses..

"Let them say good things AND let them say bad things...it's when they say NOTHING that you know you have not made a difference or taken a stance".

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

Vandy
Feb. 21, 2004, 08:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by Khobstetter:
I support Redferns web site and the work BOTH men do there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> several are taking advantage and bringing out all the old stuff to gossip about, toss around AGAIN and AGAIN
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me, but I don't think I was twisting your words around. You said (as quoted above) that you support the work KK does on Towerheads. And in the second quote above, you state that it is somehow wrong of people to mention KK's past crime on this thread.

If I have my information right, he was convicted of the original crime about 10 years ago. As his sentence was 15 years probation he is still on probation and still "serving his time".

Another part of the "American Way" is freedom of speech. I for one am glad this is being discussed on a public forum because I believe a lot of people did not know much about KK until they read factual information here. I really don't see that people who are discussing his sex crime should be classified, as they are by Khobstetter, as
"people LOVE to stomp folks when they are down..."


So I am wondering where I slandered you and incorrectly represented what you believe?

Vandy
Feb. 21, 2004, 08:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by Khobstetter:
Obvoiusly you chose to twist words....I support the American system of innocent until PROVEN guilty... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I support this American system of innocent until proven guilty too. He was proven guilty of the sex charge right? You will notice that in my posts I have never passed judgement on the current drug arrest, FWIW.

Erin
Feb. 21, 2004, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
I ASSUMED after Erin had to lock the other thread that there would at least be a discussion and NOT a personal attack and set of pot shots...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correction...

Erin did not "have" to lock the original thread. After talking it over with the folks from COTH, we decided to close it and open a NEW thread specifically to have a proactive discussion about issues that had been brought up in the original thread.

Overall, to be honest, I thought people were behaving pretty well on the original thread. But it had become a lot of "he's great!"/"no he's not!" bickering back and forth that wasn't really going anywhere.

There was quite a bit of good discussion and information being posted on the second thread... although that one seems to have died. I guess people were enjoying the bickering more. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ALF
Feb. 21, 2004, 08:30 PM
I can revive the second thread if you want. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kachoo
Feb. 21, 2004, 10:27 PM
Wow, Khobstetter - nice defensiveness! I particularly love the way you naturally assumed I was taking personal aim at you. I might have replied on a thread that was originally directed at you, because I totally agree with Snowbird's point as far as the locking of your previous thread, and I might have recycled part of a phrase you used elsewhere, but not once did I quote you directly or use your name. I was referring to the general idea that drugs are any more rampant among the horsey set than the rest of the population, and the closest I came to directing my post at anyone was my use of the word "some." Way to assume my post was all about you.

Also delightful is how you try to correct me about what your other post said, considering that it appears that you didn't bother to read mine properly:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
Kachoo

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> that drugs are the norm at any party, dinner, or gathering. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I said was...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> " BUT someone around you probably has that stuff on them...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you think there are not drugs around the show world you must live in a house on a very high hill very far away from reality...DID not say it was the "norm"..I said that someone probably has the stuff on them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, sorry, but your above statement, to me, is equivalent to saying that drugs are the norm at show world parties/dinners/gatherings/etc. You said "If you go to any party, dinner, gathering, or get together, you are probably around drugs...someone around you probably has that stuff on them." You are stating that at any gathering one might attend in the horse world, drugs are most likely present. You can go ahead and argue that this is not the same as actually saying that drugs are the norm at gatherings of horsepeople, but it's too similar in meaning a statement to argue that I'm putting words in your mouth.

Secondly, if you go back and read what I wrote in my first post, it says, "I won't delude myself and say that it never happens, but it certainly hasn't happened around me yet. Given that so many are professing the same, I have my doubts that drug use at parties, etc. is as rampant among the horsey set as some seem to believe." I never said there are no drugs around the show world. I said that I doubt that drug use is as rampant as some might think. You're the one putting words into my mouth here. Nice one!

But whatever. I'm not surprised. Do you remember that thread about the horse of John Anderson's that supposedly died at Indio? (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=7076024331&m=9496059131&p=1) You are the same person, after all, who, in that thread, preached the virtue of not posting anything that wasn't firsthand information, when you yourself were the one to mistakenly inform the board that the horse had died...based on *gasp* secondhand information.

Oh, the irony. Do as I say but not as I do, eh?

But all of that is beside the point. Think whatever the heck you want. It's no skin off my back, yo.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!" ~Homer Simpson

[This message was edited by Kachoo on Feb. 22, 2004 at 03:18 AM.]

DMK
Feb. 22, 2004, 06:10 AM
Thank you, Kachoo. I do like reading that thread every now and then to remind me that many times when one openly claims to know everything, they might not know much at all. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Never mind the irony, oh the joys of high drama!

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

ohnowwhat
Feb. 22, 2004, 07:06 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifEveryone with a grain of sense knows she's a blowhard...... and takes her posts with that in mind.

Erin
Feb. 22, 2004, 07:31 AM
You're welcome to disagree with the post... but attacking the poster is out of line, ohnowwhat.

Can we please act like adults here? Or is that too much to ask? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

fleur
Feb. 22, 2004, 08:01 AM
wowowowowowowowowowowowowowow http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

this thread is off the wall. knob, you keep saying you support the "american way", by which i'm assuming you mean innocent until proven guilty. KK was indeed proven guilty of lewd and laviscious conduct with a minor. any responsible adult would do his or her best to keep any children they care about away from this man.

if i had thousands to drop on horseshows every year, i'd make sure they weren't ones that he was announcing at. just imagine what would happen if a public school hired a secretary with a history of child abuse... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif i don't really see the difference here.

Ineptly
Feb. 22, 2004, 08:03 AM
...And Kachoo and DMK hit that one straight out of the parkhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

ohnowwhat
Feb. 22, 2004, 08:10 AM
Ooops....

khobstetter
Feb. 22, 2004, 08:30 AM
Kachoo..

Yep, did post that information based on what I believed was a "reliabe source" at the time..

HOWEVER..I also came back and stated that the information was not accurate and appologized and said that was a lesson to learn here!!! Interesting you were so quick to run and find that thread and yet not keep looking and post my reply when the facts were out... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


fleur....since the original thread was about his arrest last week, my posts have ALL been in relation to the recent arrest..while some of you would LOVE to go off on the tangent of the past BAD situation...I have continually reffered to the happenings of last week in refraining from an opinion till ALL the facts are in.

The original thread related to his arrest at WEF last week and THAT is the situation I have been in defense of. We DO NOT know the facts, we WERE NOT there, we are NOT the police or the courts so we DO NOT have all the information..therefore it is a little early to hang him high in the sky for possession.

I do protect my barn and my clients and their cildren from ALL of the distaste in the world NO MATTER from whence it comes. Child molesting is only ONE of many things we need to protect children from.....

ohnowwhot..thanks for the compliment...you must have been at my last birthday party when I DID blow out ALL the candles..and there were plenty!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

My point is again REALLY simple..you have your opinion and I will have mine...BUT the personal stuff is out of line...I will continue to wait for ALL the facts and then I will make my own mind up on MY opinion of the RECENT situation which is what the original thread was and therefore my responses..

Thanks for a really lively conversation these days..it beats the heck out of standing in the horrible rain we are having here in Southern California. Being cooped up indoors with only the 'puter, you guys have been REALLY FUN!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

Snowbird
Feb. 22, 2004, 08:57 AM
OK! which is the real khobstetter. Advocate of the American Way defender of justice and freedom for all?

Will the real Kathy Hobstetter please step forward.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Snowbird..

You are getting very close to the edge of slander and laible...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Your pronouncement that in my "experience" I would be somewhere that drugs would be used, handled, sold or given away is not only out of line it is downright slanderous and liabalous.....I DO NOT do drugs, I DO NOT drink AT ALL and I DO NOT hang out where they would be handled, sold or given away.

You are really way to close to a very bad line here.... DO NOT INSINUATE THAT CRAP ABOUT ME....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In this case also...as YOU say..I would think I was entitled to post information WITHOUT being personally attacked...it was a thread for information and all of a sudden right off the bat Heidi got personal....so I closed the thread...and now HERE YOU ARE...
There were "no findings" and therefore there were absolutely no "charges" as it relates to some of the BB posts. He was in a dwelling where there were illegal drugs....not his. After their investigation Ken was released with NO CHARGES!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>AND I will say that for ALL of us around the show ring...if you go to any party, dinner, gathering or get together..you are probably around drugs!! You can claim to be "pure as the driven snow" BUT someone around you probably has that stuff on them...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like to understand the rules of engagement. So, it is all right for you to threaten call names and shut threads that don't go the way you want, but if I say I have never been to a party in 32 years or even to a horse show in 32 years where I have beeen in anyway aware of drugs I am accusing you of something nefarious because you say they are all over and everyone might have them in their closet.

Is this what you mean by the American Way. To bully, threaten, bluster and bang those who disagree with you into the ground because you think we will say something nice about you.

Please explain to me how that is the American Way, when I spoke with Abraham Lincoln he didn't say that the day he freed the slaves. And, George Washington was really nice we had a good chat the day he cut down that cherry tree about honesty, integrity and honor.
Battle Scarred Veteran

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Feb. 22, 2004 at 12:08 PM.]

Kachoo
Feb. 22, 2004, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
Kachoo..

Yep, did post that information based on what I believed was a "reliabe source" at the time..

HOWEVER..I also came back and stated that the information was not accurate and appologized and said that was a lesson to learn here!!! Interesting you were so quick to run and find that thread and yet not keep looking and post my reply when the facts were out... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure you find that interesting. I find that whole thread very interesting, myself http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif. Nonetheless, you're wrong again (impressive!). I tried searching for any sign that you'd made an apology once the truth regarding Leonardo came out but came up with nothing. There's certainly nothing of the sort in the aforementioned thread - all you do there is say you hope your info was incorrect, but I'm quite sure there was no apology to be seen anywhere. You're certainly free to correct me, if you can - show me the thread where you apologized for providing the wrong info, and I'll be perfectly happy to acknowledge that that's what you did. For the time being, however, I haven't seen anything of the sort, so you'll just have to forgive me for witholding any changes in my opinion regarding that until then. I'm sure you understand, being such an adamant advocate yourself of having all the facts http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

I feel I've made my point effectively enough, as do others. And rest assured, Khobstetter - I'm fairly certain I don't speak for just myself when I say that I too have found you incredibly entertaining http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Again and again and again.

Catch you on the flip side, yo.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!" ~Homer Simpson

khobstetter
Feb. 22, 2004, 10:16 AM
kachoo...Thanks for the compliment...I think I am really entertaining too, at least we agree on something... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I certainly have provided GREAT indoor entertainment on this topic.. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

Dakotawyatt
Feb. 22, 2004, 10:19 AM
I have read all bajillion pages of all of these threads on KK. I have yet to respond to any of them. All I have to say is, "You go Susie!!!http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif" Oh, and if KK was announcing at WEF, my child would be at Ocala.

~Jenny~


"The daughter who won't lift a finger in the house is the same child who cycles madly off in the pouring rain to spend all morning mucking out a stable." (Samantha Armstrong)

lauriep
Feb. 22, 2004, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dakotawyatt:
I have read all bajillion pages of all of these threads on KK. I have yet to respond to any of them. All I have to say is, "You go Susie!!!http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif" Oh, and if KK was announcing at WEF, my child would be at Ocala.

~Jenny~


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you are quite certain the staff at HITS Ocala is clean and safe?

Laurie

elizabeth
Feb. 22, 2004, 10:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dakotawyatt:
Oh, and if KK was announcing at WEF, my child would be at Ocala.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you are quite certain the staff at HITS Ocala is clean and safe?
Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Touche. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CoolMeadows
Feb. 22, 2004, 10:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dakotawyatt:
I have read all bajillion pages of all of these threads on KK. I have yet to respond to any of them. All I have to say is, "You go Susie!!!http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif" Oh, and if KK was announcing at WEF, my child would be at Ocala.

~Jenny~


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you are quite certain the staff at HITS Ocala is clean and safe?

Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, c'mon, a little thing like breaking horse's legs for insurance wouldn't really put people off HITS staff, would it?? I particularly loved the time one of the staff asked me to drive him/her into town from the horse show so s/he could buy some groceries. I agreed, take the person into town, s/he sees someone standing on a corner and yells, "Stop, stop here!". And then s/he proceeded to jump out and try to buy drugs (funnily enough, it was crack)! Yup, top quality people there hanging out with all your little kiddies. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

www.coolmeadows.net (http://www.coolmeadows.net)

DMK
Feb. 22, 2004, 10:39 AM
Why one would almost want to send their child to live with such a role model, eh coolmeadows? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And I hope we are talking about the same individual - I'd hate to learn that TWO such fine and upstanding members of society were employed by HITS. Why I'd almost want to farm out my hunters and take up needlepoint!

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

Heidi
Feb. 22, 2004, 10:43 AM
So, because there may be other people with questionable pasts populating the horse world, we shouldn't express concern about a man with a conviction for L & L with a minor, who this past week was arrested for posession of crack - is that your thesis, Laurie?

stop4
Feb. 22, 2004, 10:54 AM
There is a HUGE difference between asking a minor for sex and dragging little kids behind the bushes...

If you really want to get technical there are many worse offenders then KK running around at horse shows, its just that he happens to be the one that has been singled out and discussed to death.

Snowbird
Feb. 22, 2004, 10:55 AM
Well said Heidi,
Perhaps the concept is to let all the convicted criminals our of jail because there are some we have not been able to convict. Especially the ones that seem to know how to use the loop holes in the system like OJ.

And, CoolMeadows you would have been an accessory to a crime if they actually made the purchase.

Not very entertaining Khobstetter nor amusing, actually more of a sympathetic figure; rather like watching a train wreck. People enjoy watching car races too, hoping to see a crash.

This dialog is rather like Grade School where Johnny says to Mom well but he was worse.

So we are to presume that our judgment is flawed because there are other evil people who have not been convicted, and it's worse to molest a child if you drag them into the bushes than if you invite them home. So some other scenarios might be more acceptable for molesting children.

Isn't it rather like the rapist who defends himself by saying she really didn't mean it when she said no, or the wife beater who says but she knew that would make me angry so she wanted me to hit her.

Fred Daumer believed he was giving immortality to those he ate, it was to save them because he loved them that he killed and ate them.

Denial of guilt enables people to commit crime. Think of the twinkie defense or remember the old "the Devil made me do it".

Should we then accept all these defeses as real and let them go free? I regret there may be people at a horse show with me that are guilty of crimes, they have not been convicted. Ignornace of the law is not an excuse, but otherwise ignorance is bliss.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Feb. 22, 2004 at 02:09 PM.]

stop4
Feb. 22, 2004, 10:59 AM
Snowbird- are you really better then every other person on the board? Or do you just like to preach to us like you are... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Fluffernutter
Feb. 22, 2004, 11:06 AM
Wow, everyone here is so attackive! I am lucky I was bottle fed as a baby so I am not so quick to join the lunch mob!

CoolMeadows
Feb. 22, 2004, 11:12 AM
Yes Snowbird, I guess I would have been an accessory to a crime if any drugs had been bought. Like they say, no good deed goes unpunished. Shame on me for taking someone into town to go grocery shopping. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

www.coolmeadows.net (http://www.coolmeadows.net)

Snowbird
Feb. 22, 2004, 11:15 AM
Sandstone that's a value judgement for someone else to make because I have no way to measure a comparison since I don't really know you.

If I remember correctly somewhere early on Khobstetter granted me sainthood. That would have been her judgement and not mine.

There are many different ways to live life, and at my venerable age I've seen most of them and chosen not to participate in those I find offensive. So while others seem prone to discuss how much drugs there are, how bad the horse world is, how wicked the life style seems, I have not seen that at all. If telling you my opinion of what I know is preaching then I apologize, it is not my intention to be self righteous but to inform that there are some like me.

Yes! CoolMeadows it is a dangerous world. Little children are also lured by people saying "Please help me find my dog"; or "could you help carry these things to my car".

It's hard today to know whether to teach children good manners isn't it?

Battle Scarred Veteran

Duffy
Feb. 22, 2004, 11:19 AM
Loff you, Susie! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"B***h in training"

Richmond
Feb. 22, 2004, 11:30 AM
fluffernutter- http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Calico
Feb. 22, 2004, 11:36 AM
Kachoo, you are the Schnizzle! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

khobstetter
Feb. 22, 2004, 11:37 AM
Thank you Sandstone..her name calling is a bit out of line..

Snobird..if it was NOT entertainig, why do you keep posting and staying on this...??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I for one have a had a GREAT time with you guys..beats being out in the rain.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

MAD
Feb. 22, 2004, 02:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fluffernutter:
Wow, everyone here is so attackive! I am lucky I was bottle fed as a baby so I am not so quick to join the lunch mob!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ROTLMAO

And my question is: who would win in a battle: The "Lunch Mob" or the "Lollipop Guild"?

ALF
Feb. 22, 2004, 02:34 PM
Obviously, whichever side was most attackive. duh.

AAJumper
Feb. 22, 2004, 02:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAD:
And my question is: who would win in a battle: The "Lunch Mob" or the "Lollipop Guild"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Neither. The Lullaby League would show up and give them all the smackdown.

ise@ssl
Feb. 22, 2004, 02:50 PM
Coolmeadows - did you allow this person trying to buy drugs back in your car or did you pull the door shut and leave them there?

Sandstone - you stated:
"There is a HUGE difference between asking a minor for sex and dragging little kids behind the bushes..." Actually the intent is just as horrendous in either case - though the 2nd example includes physical force. Sad that you would make such a comment.

And Ms. Hobstetter - if the USAE won't listen to concerns about DRUG USE AT SHOWS. Then go to the USOC. Go to the Press. Go to the DEA. I'm so tired of hearing about these BIG EGO TRAINERS who dictate how much criminal activity is acceptable for them to do their business.

And regarding this person who is still on probation and obviously showing up where he shouldn't - "if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.........it's a duck!&gt;

CoolMeadows
Feb. 22, 2004, 03:06 PM
I did let the person back into my car. I didn't know what they'd been trying to do until they got back in and told me! I thought they'd seen someone they knew or something. Yes I am that gullible. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I drove them back to the show grounds and never spoke to them again.

www.coolmeadows.net (http://www.coolmeadows.net)

ise@ssl
Feb. 22, 2004, 03:19 PM
Well that's where we differ. I would have told them to get out - stopped and said OUT ...O...U..T. and left them there.

And the reality is - if they are buying...they may be holding and if a cop car had witnessed them trying to buy and stopped you - your life would have been dragged into it.

CoolMeadows
Feb. 22, 2004, 03:30 PM
Thanks for the advice. They didn't buy, they tried to. Yes I was pissed which would be why I've never spoken to the person again. I don't go to many 'A' shows anymore due to various reasons but one reason is the criminal behaviour that I witnessed not infrequently. Let me add that most of the worst criminal behaviour I witnessed on the circuit was as a junior.

www.coolmeadows.net (http://www.coolmeadows.net)

Molly99
Feb. 22, 2004, 03:54 PM
Do you really think an organization that refuses to inforce the suspension of a trainer would care about the criminal issues of other trainers that are outside of it's rules.

And yes, I have seen the suspended trainer on the show grounds. USEF knows and claims there is nothing they can do, yet they are the ones that suspended him. Go figure. And no they were not suspended for a drug violation.

CAH
Feb. 22, 2004, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:

Sandstone - you stated:
"There is a HUGE difference between asking a minor for sex and dragging little kids behind the bushes..." Actually the intent is just as horrendous in either case - though the 2nd example includes physical force. Sad that you would make such a comment.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but there is a BIG difference, at least in NJ. The use of force, and the use of a weapon, are two major factors when scoring the Tier system. Yes, there are other factors also, but the above pays a major part in the scoring system.


Lessons to be Learned Course 101

1) Know your associates
2) Parent your kids
3) Know your associates
4) Parent your kids
5) Know your associates

And finally, Khobstetter or anyone else has the right to defend who they wish. Doesn't mean that you or I agree with them. But it does not make them any less of a person.

findeight
Feb. 22, 2004, 04:05 PM
No.

Parent your kids.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

khobstetter
Feb. 22, 2004, 04:17 PM
THANK YOU CAH.......I appreciate someone allowing me to have my own approach and opinion...
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

Snowbird
Feb. 22, 2004, 04:29 PM
The question here, how can the USEF enforce those rules without the help of the exhibitors?
Management may not know there is someone present we would only know if they were entered in the show.

I have heard that there are some who show up in cognito. If so why didn't anyone tell management? If management refused to enforce the rule then file a protest with the Steward.

How will USEF know that there is this ground swell of support for enforcement unless you tell them? How many have sent emails, faxes or even snail mail to the Board of Directors of the USEF? How many have sent the same to the Hearing Committee? You are the USEF if you will take the time to tell them how you feel.

If you don't make that effort then how can anyone believe that you really want it fixed?

Battle Scarred Veteran

findeight
Feb. 22, 2004, 04:34 PM
That's the old wink wink..nod, nod and the jaded opinion that nobody should speak out because it's...well....just NOT done.

Well I'd do it. So should all of you and if you don't??

NOTHING will ever change.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Snowbird
Feb. 22, 2004, 05:18 PM
Amen! We don't know how much good it can do because no one has ever tried it. The PR issue is a good one and it will have an inevitable effect on those entry people thinking about moving up.

I understand they have put together some stats from all the biggest shows and have found out there is a serious decline in all the USEF Rated Hunter Divisions even there.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Kachoo
Feb. 22, 2004, 05:18 PM
DMK, Ineptly, Dakotawyatt, Duffy, and Moonkitty...

It was too easy, but thank you! I'll be here all week! Try the veal!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!" ~Homer Simpson

BelladonnaLily
Feb. 22, 2004, 06:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandstone:
There is a HUGE difference between asking a minor for sex and dragging little kids behind the bushes...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't say HUGE. They both desire something they shouldn't (don't we all agree on that?). I'd say it could be a very small step between solicating and forcing. Maybe not all will take that step...but it could be the natural progression for others.

Heidi
Feb. 22, 2004, 06:07 PM
Susie, I thought they only offered humble pie and crow on the lunching party menu. Shall definitely try the veal - does it come with a magic mushroom sauce, by chance? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

CuriousGeorge
Feb. 22, 2004, 06:15 PM
Dessert menu:

Magic brownies

Snowbird
Feb. 22, 2004, 07:55 PM
Where is it they offer humble pie and crow? It appears I need some desperately.

Battle Scarred Veteran

lauriep
Feb. 22, 2004, 07:57 PM
No, Heidi, that isn't my THEORY; Jenny made a comment that inferred things were all hunky dory at HITS, and I called her on it. Pretty simple.

Laurie

ALF
Feb. 23, 2004, 05:22 AM
Are you saying it's a concern at HITS but not at WEF? That's what it sounds like.

stop4
Feb. 23, 2004, 05:38 AM
I think that she is just saying it is everywhere. Someone said their kid would be at Ocala because KK wasn't there, but there are different people in Ocala with records

CBoylen
Feb. 23, 2004, 06:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Molly99:
Do you really think an organization that refuses to inforce the suspension of a trainer would care about the criminal issues of other trainers that are outside of it's rules.

And yes, I have seen the suspended trainer on the show grounds. USEF knows and claims there is nothing they can do, yet they are the ones that suspended him. Go figure. And no they were not suspended for a drug violation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to say, that's not really a case of 'refusing' to enforce a suspension. Believe me, USEF would LOVE to be able to do something about it, since it's a situation capable of undermining the whole discipline process. However, as many people have been saying for years, there's really no legal recourse for this. They have no way of preventing suspended persons from attending horse shows. All they can do is wait for an opportunity to catch them associating with someone actually showing, and then discipline that person as well.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

lauriep
Feb. 23, 2004, 07:05 AM
Actually what I meant is that the poster knows the criminal history of ONE person at WEF, and stated that because of this, her child would be going to HITS Ocala, where she knows none of the backgrounds of the employees there (presumption only). I just found this reasoning flawed.

Laurie

Special J
Feb. 23, 2004, 07:08 AM
My children are only allowed to participate in the Amish Horse Show Association approved show circuit. Then I know that they will be safe because baby Jesus loves the Amish!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
boogerbuddy

The good Lord forgives all...if only you ask!

satin
Feb. 23, 2004, 07:23 AM
booger, you have such a...medieval opinion, wouldn't you say?

eclipse
Feb. 23, 2004, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by Kachoo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I too would like to emphasize that based on what I have seen, I would never venture to say that drugs are the norm at any party, dinner, or gathering. I've been to a good number of each of these, and not once have I caught the slightest indication that drugs were present anywhere. I won't delude myself and say that it never happens, but it certainly hasn't happened around me yet. Given that so many are professing the same, I have my doubts that drug use at parties, etc. is as rampant among the horsey set as some seem to believe.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I show at many of the same shows Kachoo does, I have to agree with her. I have NEVER seen this so called rampant drug use at horse shows or even parties associated with horse people. I also take exeption to this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>that drugs are the norm at any party, dinner, or gathering.


What I said was...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" BUT someone around you probably has that stuff on them... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, Knob, but I can absolutley tell you that the people I go out with DO NOT use drugs or have them on them!! How dare you insinuate that we all associate with people doing this....does this mean that YOU associate with these kinds of people??? And, if you know that these said people are taking illegal substances, why do you put up with it? Do something about the "widespread drug problem" and report them.

"Don't bother me; I'm living happily ever after!"

Dakotawyatt
Feb. 23, 2004, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Actually what I meant is that the poster knows the criminal history of ONE person at WEF, and stated that because of this, her child would be going to HITS Ocala, where she knows none of the backgrounds of the employees there (presumption only). I just found this reasoning flawed.

Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Laurie, someone asked way back when on the other thread if parents would actually not let their kids show where a convicted sex offender worked. I wouldn't. I don't care if it's WEF...if I KNOW a sex offender is on the staff of a particular show, my kid won't be there. If it came out that HITS Ocala employed a convicted sex offender, I wouldn't be there either. I think crimes against children are heinous and unforgivable. Period.

~Jenny~


"The daughter who won't lift a finger in the house is the same child who cycles madly off in the pouring rain to spend all morning mucking out a stable." (Samantha Armstrong)

khobstetter
Feb. 23, 2004, 12:45 PM
Hey..I hear from another one..Eclipse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> How dare you insinuate that we all associate with people doing this....does this mean that YOU associate with these kinds of people??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

GREAT twisting of the words there....

I DID NOT SAY OR INSINUATE THAT YOU OR I ASSOCIATE WITH "THESE KINDS" OF PEOPLE...I referred to horse show parties....and you can bet your bippie that at "most" of them, there is someone with something..not at your personal dinner party (??) but read again my post..

THANKS FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO LAUGH AGAIN ON A RAINY DAY...

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

LucianCephus
Feb. 23, 2004, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have to say, that's not really a case of 'refusing' to enforce a suspension. Believe me, USEF would LOVE to be able to do something about it, since it's a situation capable of undermining the whole discipline process. However, as many people have been saying for years, there's really no legal recourse for this. They have no way of preventing suspended persons from attending horse shows. All they can do is wait for an opportunity to catch them associating with someone actually showing, and then discipline that person as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chandra, I think the case of Barney Ward established that the USEF can, indeed, enforce suspensions through legal avenues. I don't remember the specifics, but I know they were successful in getting an injunction that forbid him from being on the show grounds at recognized competitions. As noted in COTH, Justice Braun wrote that the AHSA "has the right to keep unsavory people away from the horse shows that it oversees, even if only to prevent the appearance of impropriety."

[This message was edited by LucianCephus on Feb. 23, 2004 at 04:27 PM.]

CBoylen
Feb. 23, 2004, 02:42 PM
However, whenever Barney wanted to attend a show in the past, the steward was unsuccessful in removing him, and the local law enforcement would not take action. He stopped attending only upon threats towards Mclain's status. I've spoken to numerous people upon this subject, and there really is not a surefire way to enforce these things.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

Snowbird
Feb. 23, 2004, 02:58 PM
But if there was a huge reaction from the exhibitors, their families and friends and members of the USEF we do not know what would happen, because as group we have not done more than condone the "old boys network" of don't ask and don't tell.

I would like to point out that we too have a responsibility. I have been very pleased to read so many of the posts here and that they are not lone voices but there is a chorus beginning. I know there was a big response to only 100 emails from members having to do with the abuse of the horses with medication during competition.

If we can make this a choir then perhaps there will be enough emails for Gene Mische and all the other show managers to know that the exhibitors care and will respond.

I don't think this issue has to do as much with seeing KK lose his job as it has with making sure now that we are aware that it never happens again. I think that empployment contracts with a morals clause is a good thing.

I think it should apply equally to human athletes and equine athletes. I don't think there will be a big changes immediately, but when ALL the managers realize that they could lose everything they've worked for because their events no longer have the prestige that makes them attractive they will be much more careful and responsive.

We should not assume that it can't happen until we try to see if it will happen if there are enough who agree. I would think that if a show manager "knowingly" puts someone into a position of authority and that person is an abuser, there is some culpability legally where they ten become an accessory after the fact. I'm not a legal but perhaps someone out here more knowledgeable will advise.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Hopeful Hunter
Feb. 23, 2004, 03:26 PM
SO........how does one inform the show management of one's disgust at these situations...if one feels it?

Does anyone HAVE the correct address/fax number and salutations for WEF? And what's this about HITS? *sigh*

I for one DO want to write and let them know my PERSONAL, INDIVIDUAL feelings on some issues. Several issues, actually. So if someone DOES have the contact info, I'd appreciate it!

MAD
Feb. 23, 2004, 03:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by boogerbuddy:
My children are only allowed to participate in the Amish Horse Show Association approved show circuit. Then I know that they will be safe because baby Jesus loves the Amish!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
boogerbuddy

_The good Lord forgives all...if only you ask!_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that is in the gospel according to???? (lol Erin!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Snowbird
Feb. 23, 2004, 04:02 PM
Amish Horse Shows Association (AHSA)?

I would suggest a copy to the Competition Management Committee and the Show Standards Committee as well as to David O'Connor and John Long.

Competition Management Committee

The Committee shall hold at least one meeting annually and shall submit to the Board of Directors suggestions for the improvement of the Federation and Recognized Shows.

MR. GLENN T. PETTY
Chair
207 N. MAIN ST, SUITE 101
ROLESVILLE, NC
27571 USA
Evening Phone: (919) 554-0855
FAX: (919) 562-3287
Email: trifarms@aol.com

MR. WILLIAM M. MUNFORD JR.
Chair-Vice
P O BOX 4010
CAMPBELLSVILLE, KY
42719-4010
Day Phone: (270) 465-3539
Evening Phone: (270) 465-3539
FAX: (270) 465-5293



MR. EUGENE R. MISCHE
Member
1301 SIXTH AVENUE WEST
SUITE 406
BRADENTON, FL
34205
Day Phone: (941) 744-5465
Evening Phone: (941) 722-3491
Cell Phone: (914) 915-3445
FAX: (941) 744-0874
Email: erm1999@aol.com


MR. THOMAS G. STRUZZIERI
319 MAIN STREET
SAUGERTIES, NY
12477-1330
Day Phone: (845) 246-8833
FAX: (845) 246-6371
Email: showhits@cs.com



Battle Scarred Veteran

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Feb. 23, 2004 at 07:15 PM.]

Heidi
Feb. 23, 2004, 04:17 PM
I'm thinking a petition may be effective; which, for the sake of driving the proverbial point home, MUST include the 'signatures' of well-known trainers/riders in the sport - just so they don't/can't dismiss the concern.

Or an ad in the COTH - a 'message to all show organizers' kinda exercise - which spells out our concerns, as fellow show organizers, trainers, riders, parents, so blatantly that non-compliance looks visibly and publicly irresponsible.

Snowbird
Feb. 23, 2004, 04:19 PM
All committees with contact information are listed on the USEF.org site

I look forward to receiving my copy.

The ad in Chronicle is very good!
Most Committees and the Board of Directors in the past have ignored petitions because the signatures cannot be certified. The Legislature will not take action on an email for the same reason, they require a Fax.

Battle Scarred Veteran

LucianCephus
Feb. 23, 2004, 05:18 PM
Sorry, Chandra, I'm not buying it. Has the USEF so much as asked for an injunction to deal with JF or whoever exactly it is we're talking about?

And how did they threaten McLain??? There's something in the rule book about your father watching from the bleachers?

Nope, if they wanted these guys off the grounds--that is, if Gene and Tom did--they'd be gone. Much easier just to throw up their collective hands and whine.

CBoylen
Feb. 23, 2004, 06:20 PM
You and I are obviously not speaking about the same instances, Lucian. I'm referring to the current situation in WBP with CW (what the heck, I don't think I'm out of line posting intials, he's seen on the showgrounds by lots of people everyday).

In any case, when Barney made his appearances (not recently, and not down here), from what I understand, the steward at that particular show asked him repeatedly to leave, and attempted to involve the police, to very little effect. That steward was under pressure from the association, but no one had any bright ideas as to how to accomplish the job. The only point that could be made was that if he was involved in any 'coaching', ie any conversation on the showgrounds at any point in time, the competitor would also be disciplined in some manner.
That I believe is also the only threat that can be made in this recent instance.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

DMK
Feb. 23, 2004, 06:45 PM
lucian, I can certainly see C.Boylen's point. If you do not employ large burly bouncer type guards to ahem, "escort" someone off the grounds if they refuse to go, then I guess your alternative is to call the police. These are the same police, who in their eyes, are rather overworked trying to deal with drug abusers, bank robbers, kidnappers, rapists, kiddy porn pedllers, domestic disputes and so on. I suspect their "response rate" for this sort of situation is delayed to non-existant.

However, I am sure (or I would HOPE) that the show management/stewards at WEF are keeping careful records of each infraction (a digital camera could be useful in this area). No, WEF may not be able to physically remove him, but if an extra 6 months was tacked on to the end of a suspension for every recorded infraction, then this might be an incentive for behavior change.

I have always believed that arrogance needs its own special reward. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

ssaymssik
Feb. 23, 2004, 07:56 PM
I can see it now---

Metal detectors and bouncers at the entrance to every show grounds... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I think it is in poor taste that those being disciplined seemingly have no consequences for ignoring the penalties put upon them. Tacky, just plain tacky.

Stupid people bug me.
STOP!!! Where's that sense of humor???

LucianCephus
Feb. 24, 2004, 03:38 AM
Hey, guys, sorry if I came off as a bit, you know, shrill. (Also sorry that I'm so out of the loop, but that's a different story http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif!)

All I meant to say was that with an injunction, it's at least theoretically possible to have the suspended one ejected from the grounds. Given the economic impact of these large shows, I would further suspect that a carefully placed phone call (and not from the poor stewart) would elicit the support of the boys in blue. But, you know, DMK has a point--maybe the normal police priorities are correctly set, and these infractions really aren't worth their time. We like to think that H/J competitions are somehow superior to the racing world, where one anticipates the presence of some number of scammers and low-lifes, but that's not true and never has been. Maybe this really isn't such a big deal.

(And, DMK, your suggestion re adding on time clearly offers the most sane solution, but isn't the person at WPB already suspended indefinitely?)

Weatherford
Feb. 24, 2004, 04:50 AM
Lucien - in the case of Barney (and I think it was a few years ago in NH) they DID have an injunction, but the local police wouldn't enforce, as they had been approached in advance and told it wasn't valid or something. Regardless, it went to court, and the injunction WAS held up!

However, that has not stopped BW from appearing at USET events (ir the Festival of Champions a few years ago, where I saw him), that supposed were not under AHSA jurisdiction... (That is not a problem anymore, I believe. And I never understood HOW, if the event was FEI sanctioned - and the FEI recognized the country's NGB (in this case, the AHSA). he COULD appear - but that was during the bad times and before the merger....)

In the case of other suspended persons (including whoever CW is and Jerry Farmer out in the West), I think they should be reported and a time-stamped digital photo would be a VERY good thing. If the Steward isn't responding, copy it to show management; if they aren't responding, send it to the federation!! I like the idea of a few months/years added to a suspension.... Especially in the latter case, where he is supposedly an employee of the show management.

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DMK
Feb. 24, 2004, 05:14 AM
Weatherford, Jerry is most certainly much farther to the east...

And yes, the indefinite suspension is an issue, but I guess as long as that person wants to get back into the business at some point in time, they would need to adjust their priorities. Of course I am sure someone will always try to get around any law or rule, that's just human nature.

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

Snowbird
Feb. 24, 2004, 11:39 AM
So what are you all saying? If there has been a lack of enforcement, if we haven't found the right tools then we should just accept the inevitable?

Battle Scarred Veteran

Beezer
Feb. 24, 2004, 05:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
So what are you all saying? If there has been a lack of enforcement, if we haven't found the right tools then we should just accept the inevitable?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I think there are probably some who would just shrug, sigh and accept, I, for one, can think of a really good tool I'd like to use on a few of these guys....

***** Currently assigned to the mouth-gaping, lip-flapping, head-twisting, wood-chewing, boot-shredding phase of baby greenie ownership! *****

Snowbird
Feb. 24, 2004, 05:55 PM
I can too, and mine is even more painful. THE PEN is mightier than the SWORD. A Sword may take care of what you have in mind but only one at a time.

The PEN is our real weapon and it will will deal with those who are just planning.

Battle Scarred Veteran

bonstet
Feb. 25, 2004, 04:46 AM
I agree that the pen is mightier than the sword, but how does someone like me get heard? The reason I ask is that the information I have on those violating suspensions is based on reports from posters on this BB. I can't write a letter and say "I heard blah-blah-blah..."

How can those of us not showing in FL this time of year and who haven't seen, firsthand, the blatant violations of suspensions sound credible to the powers that be?

War Admiral
Feb. 25, 2004, 06:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> No, WEF may not be able to physically remove him, but if an extra 6 months was tacked on to the end of a suspension for every recorded infraction, then this might be an incentive for behavior change.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, this thread actually went somewhere productive for 5 mins and I missed it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Excellent idea, DMK.

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

Snowbird
Feb. 25, 2004, 08:30 AM
Well Bonstet you can certainly explain your great concern as a result of the bad PR which this industry is getting from the inside, about the quality of competition and the exposure to the criminal element.

You can inquire if the Anti-Doping Committee cares about excessive use of drugs by the human competitors. Certainly there are quite a few who think they ride better on drugs than clean.

You can express your concern about the abuse of horses through medication. These all seem to be public information.

Pick your favorite sin and go for it. What's the worse than can happen? They won't read it but it will go in the pile of anti drugs and anti criminal elements at show. Hopefully, that pile will be much larger.

Battle Scarred Veteran

*HuntrNJumprLuvr*
Mar. 13, 2004, 11:27 AM
hmmm i have no idea what this is all about.. maybe cos im new and dont know anything...