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View Full Version : Freakin hikers! Hold on to your dogs!!! grrrrrr



Huntertwo
Apr. 21, 2010, 03:33 PM
So, went on a what started as a nice trail ride this afternoon. A trail I recently discovered goes directly right by the end of a runway at a small airport.
The end of the run way is really built up to clear the tree tops in the state forest. So, you can't see the planes until they are airborne right over you, which is actually pretty cool.;)

Just as I was riding by the runway, I heard a plane starting take off...eek!
It buzzed right above the treetops above us and I was amazed that Twinkie wasn't fazed in the least....

I'm feeling all ecstatic that I have the greatest trail pony...lol

Then we come across a single hiker who is holding 3 full grown boxers. She asks me if they bark will it disturb my pony. I said no, as barking doesn't bother her.

She continues a few feet and of course one of the full grown boxers which she has velcroed to her arm breaks free with it's retractable leash and comes running at us.
The leash by now is dragging leaves and debris and my mare just spins.....and off I go. :mad:

Dumb arse.. Did you really think a piece of velcro attached to your arm was going to hold your full grown big dog??

Still had my Dressage whip in my hands, which I carry for this purpose. I stand up and as the dog is sniffing my pony's back legs, I whack the dog as hard as I can!!!
Owner saw me and I didn't give a sheet.

She apologizes, asks me if I'm okay. I can do nothing but glare...

Then she says "Well at least they didn't bark." WTF?

I in turn (still glaring and swearing to myself) said "Well, that didn't do me any good."

I have nothing against dogs on the trails we share. But one woman trying to hold 3 big dogs??? :mad:

I just thank God that the damn retractable leash didn't wrap around Twinkie's legs....:no:

wendy
Apr. 21, 2010, 03:55 PM
But one woman trying to hold 3 big dogs???


I've done that. No problems. Course my dogs are trained, aren't on those stupid stupid flexis (velcroed to her arm???), and are barn-broke, as in, have zero interest in bothering horses.

Wellspotted
Apr. 21, 2010, 04:25 PM
Dogs. Arrgghhh! Can't get away from 'em. At the barn, in the neighborhood ... they're everywhere. You would think that out on a nice trail ride you could get away from them, but apparently not.

I'm sorry your ride was wrecked by such badly behaved dogs. Why don't their owners train them before they take them out in public?

I like quiet, well-behaved, gentle dogs.

Of course, if I owned a dog, it would always be perfectly behaved ... ;)

GoForAGallop
Apr. 21, 2010, 04:54 PM
I'm sorry your ride was wrecked by such badly behaved dogs. Why don't their owners train them before they take them out in public?


Err, how about training your horse not to be afraid of dogs before taking IT out in public?

None of my horses are afraid of dogs (or dragging ropes, for that matter) so a dog dragging a "rope" should be no big deal. If any of my horses ever spooked at a dog (which they clearly saw....I'm not talking about a startle if something comes lunging out of the woods) there would be a "Come to Jesus" meeting for sure, and it wouldn't be between me and the dog.


People, train your horses. Surely you're not expecting dogs to be kicked off trails? Cause lemme tell you, horses will be the first to go, not hikers. Live and let live. Yes, the lady should have kept hold of her dog...but she DID have it on a leash, clearly something just went wrong. And the dog clearly was not vicious (casually sniffing the horse's back legs...just curious.) So the horse owner was at fault here, with their dog-sensitive horse.


If I were out hiking and someone smacked my accidentally-loose dog with a crop because THEIR stupid horse spooked and they weren't prepared enough to stay on, you can sure as h#ll bet that I'd be wrenching that whip out of their hands and going after them.


and are barn-broke, as in, have zero interest in bothering horses.

Most dog owners don't have access to horses to "barn break" them. However, most horse owners have access to dogs, so all horses should be "dog proof." Especially since this was just a casually curious dog, not an aggressive barking rabies-infected disaster.

Auventera Two
Apr. 21, 2010, 04:59 PM
On no! Geeze, I'm sorry to hear you came off :( Dangit it anyway! At least you didn't get hurt but what a rotten way to end a ride.

I despise retractable leashes. I think they should all be illegal.

And I also hate it when people let dogs run loose on public trails. Yeah, this woman apparently tried to contain them but failed at that attempt.

I've had a lot of close calls due to loose dogs. Thankfully I have 3 dogs at home that I let run loose while I ride so the horses get used to them, but still. You can't trust strange dogs not to attack or bite and horses can sense the difference!

Many of the trails have some serious obstacles that could be dangerous in a blow-up situation - bridges, drop-offs, culverts with deep water on both sides, highways, wire fencing......those things are fine when you can sanely negotiate them at a walk but when you have a loose dog after your horse's hocks, it's really hard to control the situation.

And while I agree that horses should be trained to accept dogs - it's impossible to train a horse to accept an attacking dog wrapping its leash around its legs and biting him in the hocks fer god sake! When that dog comes blasting out of nowhere, it's even more difficult. Spooks happen and horses are fight or flight animals. A deer bolting through the woods or a car going by on the highway isn't the same thing as a predator attacking the horse while you're on top. That is a VERY dangerous situation, no matter HOW trained the horse is. ANY horse can react in that situation.

PletchersMom
Apr. 21, 2010, 05:57 PM
Err, how about training your horse not to be afraid of dogs before taking IT out in public?

None of my horses are afraid of dogs (or dragging ropes, for that matter) so a dog dragging a "rope" should be no big deal. If any of my horses ever spooked at a dog (which they clearly saw....I'm not talking about a startle if something comes lunging out of the woods) there would be a "Come to Jesus" meeting for sure, and it wouldn't be between me and the dog.


People, train your horses. Surely you're not expecting dogs to be kicked off trails? Cause lemme tell you, horses will be the first to go, not hikers. Live and let live. Yes, the lady should have kept hold of her dog...but she DID have it on a leash, clearly something just went wrong. And the dog clearly was not vicious (casually sniffing the horse's back legs...just curious.) So the horse owner was at fault here, with their dog-sensitive horse.


If I were out hiking and someone smacked my accidentally-loose dog with a crop because THEIR stupid horse spooked and they weren't prepared enough to stay on, you can sure as h#ll bet that I'd be wrenching that whip out of their hands and going after them.



Most dog owners don't have access to horses to "barn break" them. However, most horse owners have access to dogs, so all horses should be "dog proof." Especially since this was just a casually curious dog, not an aggressive barking rabies-infected disaster.

Not all horses are as "trained" as yours. They may be newer to trail rides than what you are used to. We all have to start somewhere trail riding.....I know all the training in the ring and around the barn wont prepare you for everything that you experience on the trails. With that said, my horse is new to trails, and every time we ride is a new experience...hopefully it is a good one, but it doesnt always turn out that way, as most people know.

That dog was freakin lucky that it didnt get kicked by her pony.
And yes, I would definately use anything near me or in my hand to get that dog away from my horse, so if that meant smacking it with the whip, then so be it, its gonna get smacked.
Then maybe next time it will think twice before going near a horse....or any animal that big..

Huntertwo
Apr. 21, 2010, 06:01 PM
Err, how about training your horse not to be afraid of dogs before taking IT out in public?

None of my horses are afraid of dogs (or dragging ropes, for that matter) so a dog dragging a "rope" should be no big deal. If any of my horses ever spooked at a dog (which they clearly saw....I'm not talking about a startle if something comes lunging out of the woods) there would be a "Come to Jesus" meeting for sure, and it wouldn't be between me and the dog.


People, train your horses. Surely you're not expecting dogs to be kicked off trails? Cause lemme tell you, horses will be the first to go, not hikers. Live and let live. Yes, the lady should have kept hold of her dog...but she DID have it on a leash, clearly something just went wrong. And the dog clearly was not vicious (casually sniffing the horse's back legs...just curious.) So the horse owner was at fault here, with their dog-sensitive horse.


If I were out hiking and someone smacked my accidentally-loose dog with a crop because THEIR stupid horse spooked and they weren't prepared enough to stay on, you can sure as h#ll bet that I'd be wrenching that whip out of their hands and going after them.



Most dog owners don't have access to horses to "barn break" them. However, most horse owners have access to dogs, so all horses should be "dog proof." Especially since this was just a casually curious dog, not an aggressive barking rabies-infected disaster.

Excuse me?? I'm supposed to beat my pony because someone can't control her dog? It is my fault? lol

She is not afraid of dogs, that is why I told her to go by me as my mare is not afraid of barking dogs.

I was the one out minding my own business.

And yes, this dog did come charging at us in the woods and startled my pony.

SHE is the idiot who thinks a piece of velcro attached to her arm is going to hold a full grown large dog.

And I'm glad you were there too - Just how did you know this was a casual curious dog? Was I supposed to wait until it bit my horse? I don't think so..:rolleyes:
So, you bet your arse I gave it a good whack.

And try reading for comprehension. Where did I say dogs should be banned from trails? So don't pull words from your arse.

Oh, and my mare is blind in one eye, but I bet you'd beat her for that anyway....

My condolences to your horses.

GoForAGallop
Apr. 21, 2010, 06:18 PM
And while I agree that horses should be trained to accept dogs - it's impossible to train a horse to accept an attacking dog wrapping its leash around its legs and biting him in the hocks fer god sake! When that dog comes blasting out of nowhere, it's even more difficult. Spooks happen and horses are fight or flight animals. A deer bolting through the woods or a car going by on the highway isn't the same thing as a predator attacking the horse while you're on top. That is a VERY dangerous situation, no matter HOW trained the horse is. ANY horse can react in that situation.

This dog, from the OP's original post, was not "attacking." He also didn't come out of nowhere, since the OP had time to have a conversation with the owner about whether the dogs could go by/bark or not. I did say that I cut horses some slack for things magically appearing, but as the OPs own post says, that wasn't the case.

PletchersMom
Apr. 21, 2010, 06:25 PM
Even though this dog was seen by the pony, this pony has an eye issue....so what is to say this dog didnt come up on that side!!
I have been trail riding for 20+ yrs and you still cant train for every situation that pops up on the trails...Huntertwo was just expressing an opinion on a frustrating situation....you dont have to "smack" the rider for it!

GoForAGallop
Apr. 21, 2010, 06:28 PM
Excuse me?? I'm supposed to beat my pony because someone can't control her dog? It is my fault? lol

Well, you're the one who couldn't control your horse. Which yes, is your fault.


I was the one out minding my own business.
So was she.


And yes, this dog did come charging at us in the woods and startled my pony.
Well if that is indeed the case, my apologies. But your original post stated that you had enough time to chat with the owner about the dogs passing, which made me assume that your horse had plenty of time to notice that the three dogs were hovering around said lady.


And I'm glad you were there too - Just how did you know this was a casual curious dog? Was I supposed to wait until it bit my horse? I don't think so..:rolleyes:
You didn't say the dog was frothing at the mouth and growling, or in any way indicating that he was going to bite. You said "sniffing around the back legs". Which is what curious dogs do. Dogs who are intended on biting are growling, stand off at a distance, and lunge.



And try reading for comprehension. Where did I say dogs should be banned from trails? So don't pull words from your arse.

Oh, you charming thing. Take your own advice and go note that I DIDN'T say that you said such a thing. I just mentioned that there's no need to be ranting against dog owners, since we need to live peacefully with them because they outweigh us and out number us by far.


Oh, and my mare is blind in one eye, but I bet you'd beat her for that anyway....
Nope, but I'd still expect her to behave reasonably around dogs, even if they are -gasp!- running. And having been the main-rider of a horse almost 80% blind in BOTH eyes, who was also an excellent and bomb-proof trail horse, that's not an impossible thing to ask.


My condolences to your horses.
Don't know why you'd feel sorry for them...they're fat, happy, and not afraid of dogs, so we tend to have a lot of peaceful trail rides..

GoForAGallop
Apr. 21, 2010, 06:31 PM
Even though this dog was seen by the pony, this pony has an eye issue....so what is to say this dog didnt come up on that side!!
I have been trail riding for 20+ yrs and you still cant train for every situation that pops up on the trails...Huntertwo was just expressing an opinion on a frustrating situation....you dont have to "smack" the rider for it!

There was no mention of the eye-issue in the original post, unless I'm mistaken. So how I would have magically known that, I'm not sure.

And yes, I understand that you cannot train for every situation. I ran into a hot air balloon coming down once, and you can bet that was a fiasco of snorts and startles! :lol: But come on, a dog running along the trail is NOT uncommon. It should just be "Oh, sigh, another miscreant dog running loose along the trail, guess I'd better just ignore it and get on with my ride."

Huntertwo
Apr. 21, 2010, 06:45 PM
Well, you're the one who couldn't control your horse. Which yes, is your fault.

Well if that is indeed the case, my apologies. But your original post stated that you had enough time to chat with the owner about the dogs passing, which made me assume that your horse had plenty of time to notice that the three dogs were hovering around said lady.

.

We did talk, but from afar. We were in the woods, the trees are starting to fill in, HARD to see.

Do you think if I was that close and saw retractable leashes, I would have given the okay to come up to us?

I don't give a sheet whether the dog was barking, growling, or not. It was at my pony's hind legs. I certainly was NOT going to take a chance.

Dog gets smacked before my pony, who is minding her own business gets bit. Period.

LuvMyNSH
Apr. 21, 2010, 06:57 PM
She continues a few feet and of course one of the full grown boxers which she has velcroed to her arm breaks free with it's retractable leash and comes running at us.
The leash by now is dragging leaves and debris and my mare just spins.....and off I go. :mad:


The absolute undiluted stupidity of dog owners like this blows me away. Untrained dogs? Check. Incorrect equipment? Check. Out in public regardless? Yep! Who cares about other people!

Forget there was a horse involved - what if someone was hiking with their child and a boxer comes flying at the kid? Or just hiking anyway. Even if the person wasn't scared by a large, unfamilar dog coming at them, a boxer - even with friendly intent - is big enough to knock down and scratch the hell out of someone. Or someone responsible is out with their little dog on a correctly fitted leash and here comes moron and her out of control trio!

If this dog had come at my MFT mare he'd be dead, and I'd be sorry - for the dog and not one whit for the owner.

And I think those %^$& flexi leashes should be banned.

dalpal
Apr. 21, 2010, 07:07 PM
I've done that. No problems. Course my dogs are trained, aren't on those stupid stupid flexis (velcroed to her arm???), and are barn-broke, as in, have zero interest in bothering horses.


Yep me too...I always have three big dogs with me.

Haven't had any problems, then again, I don't go out where people are potentially riding either on trails.

However, although I understand your anger/frustration....she did apologize, it was a mistake...you could have been a little nicer than glaring at her. I could understand if she had felt like it was okay, but apparently she realized that she screwed up.

Sheet happens all the time when you ride horses...if you are going to go ride in public places you have to accept that or don't ride on public trails.

dalpal
Apr. 21, 2010, 07:12 PM
Excuse me?? I'm supposed to beat my pony because someone can't control her dog? It is my fault? lol

She is not afraid of dogs, that is why I told her to go by me as my mare is not afraid of barking dogs.

I was the one out minding my own business.

And yes, this dog did come charging at us in the woods and startled my pony.

SHE is the idiot who thinks a piece of velcro attached to her arm is going to hold a full grown large dog.

And I'm glad you were there too - Just how did you know this was a casual curious dog? Was I supposed to wait until it bit my horse? I don't think so..:rolleyes:
So, you bet your arse I gave it a good whack.

And try reading for comprehension. Where did I say dogs should be banned from trails? So don't pull words from your arse.

Oh, and my mare is blind in one eye, but I bet you'd beat her for that anyway....

My condolences to your horses.

Wow, just wow. Sometimes I do wonder about how people who post such emotional posts on this bulliten board react in real life situations...hysterical?

dalpal
Apr. 21, 2010, 07:17 PM
The absolute undiluted stupidity of dog owners like this blows me away. Untrained dogs? Check. Incorrect equipment? Check. Out in public regardless? Yep! Who cares about other people!

Forget there was a horse involved - what if someone was hiking with their child and a boxer comes flying at the kid? Or just hiking anyway. Even if the person wasn't scared by a large, unfamilar dog coming at them, a boxer - even with friendly intent - is big enough to knock down and scratch the hell out of someone. Or someone responsible is out with their little dog on a correctly fitted leash and here comes moron and her out of control trio!

If this dog had come at my MFT mare he'd be dead, and I'd be sorry - for the dog and not one whit for the owner.

And I think those %^$& flexi leashes should be banned.

Ummm, folks..I hate to break this to you...but far more people own dogs than horses...yes, some aren't really bright, some make mistakes. People have just as much right to the trails with their dogs as you do with your horse. There are no laws against flexi leashes (gasp, I have THREE...oh, the horrors), there are no laws against multiple dogs..there are laws on how big your dog can be.....so, when riding in an area with the genral public...be prepared for the unexpected...whether you think it's stupid or not.

Huntertwo
Apr. 21, 2010, 07:24 PM
Excuse me?? I'm supposed to beat my pony because someone can't control her dog? It is my fault? lol

She is not afraid of dogs, that is why I told her to go by me as my mare is not afraid of barking dogs.

I was the one out minding my own business.

And yes, this dog did come charging at us in the woods and startled my pony.

SHE is the idiot who thinks a piece of velcro attached to her arm is going to hold a full grown large dog.

And I'm glad you were there too - Just how did you know this was a casual curious dog? Was I supposed to wait until it bit my horse? I don't think so..:rolleyes:
So, you bet your arse I gave it a good whack.

And try reading for comprehension. Where did I say dogs should be banned from trails? So don't pull words from your arse.

Oh, and my mare is blind in one eye, but I bet you'd beat her for that anyway....

My condolences to your horses.

Wow, just wow. Sometimes I do wonder about how people who post such emotional posts on this bulliten board react in real life situations...hysterical?

Well, you know dalpal, when someone says this to me about my horse -
------------------------------------
Quote:If I were out hiking and someone smacked my accidentally-loose dog with a crop because THEIR stupid horse spooked and they weren't prepared enough to stay on.
------------------------------------
My horse is STUPID because she spooked?
Criticize me... Don't she dare call my horse "Stupid" because she was afraid when a dog comes running down the trail at her...

If she gives her horse "A come to Jesus" moment whenever it is scared, yes, I feel sorry for her horse.

Painted Horse
Apr. 21, 2010, 07:25 PM
I'm going to have side with GoforaGallop on this. Horses need to be broke to strange dogs. I see lots of dog owners along some of the trails I ride in the winter and spring. 99% of them gather their dogs as they see us approach. They usually step off the side of the trail and wait for us. I usually tell them not to worry about it as my horses are used to dogs. I appreciate their courtesy. But my horses are expected to deal with the dogs regardless. And I ride a lot of young horse along that trail just for the experiences they get. Bridges, bikers, hikers, dogs, etc.

I run into many ranchers with their cattle dogs, I run into sheep herders with their sheep dogs, None of these are ever on a leash. If you ride into a strange camp along a mountain trail. Their dogs almost always come a running out barking, as we are intruding what they percieve to be their turf, since their owners have set up camp there.

It's unfortunate that her dog got loose, But she did try to control it. If she had made no effort, then you could be pissed.

I run into wolves, bears, coyotes, cougars, and all kinds of prey animals along the trail. I expect my horses to spook in place and look to me for direction.

Huntertwo
Apr. 21, 2010, 07:30 PM
However, although I understand your anger/frustration....she did apologize, it was a mistake...you could have been a little nicer than glaring at her. I could understand if she had felt like it was okay, but apparently she realized that she screwed up.



You are right. She apologized and I should have let it go, but I wasn't going to say I was fine, because I wasn't.
So, I didn't say anything to her.

Villager
Apr. 21, 2010, 07:48 PM
We have had bad dog issues in our urban park....We used to have the Doggy Day Care businesses arrive and let their dogs out to run in the park-up to 5 or 6 at a time..A couple of riders had bad falls and horses bitten and chased by the 'pack mentality' that dogs will get into when running together. The story hit the paper and Dog Day Care vans go to less poplulated places for their "PE" times.

Things that bug me-1.our parks board labelling 'off leash trails' and 'on leash trails'. Off leash dogs are 'dogs without borders' who run on and off the trails, through the underbrush bounding out on trails totally oblivious to their masters. One lady was having an awful time keeping her 3 dogs under control, yelling away and appologising that one of the dogs wasn't hers and he lead them astray!.

2.I've- warned them my horse will kick if he comes to close-the response"Good that will teach Sparky a lesson." (If Sparky survives the kick!)

3.Or another- dog jumps up on horse's shoulder, "Don't mind Sparky, he's just wants to make friends with your horse".

We do have to share the trails, and I dod go out of my way to compliment dog owners when they keep their dog under control on the shared trails. It's a matter of educating dog owners as many have no sense of how hores percieve things. best of luck on those trails....

goeslikestink
Apr. 21, 2010, 08:00 PM
Well, you're the one who couldn't control your horse. Which yes, is your fault.


So was she.


Well if that is indeed the case, my apologies. But your original post stated that you had enough time to chat with the owner about the dogs passing, which made me assume that your horse had plenty of time to notice that the three dogs were hovering around said lady.


You didn't say the dog was frothing at the mouth and growling, or in any way indicating that he was going to bite. You said "sniffing around the back legs". Which is what curious dogs do. Dogs who are intended on biting are growling, stand off at a distance, and lunge.




Oh, you charming thing. Take your own advice and go note that I DIDN'T say that you said such a thing. I just mentioned that there's no need to be ranting against dog owners, since we need to live peacefully with them because they outweigh us and out number us by far.


Nope, but I'd still expect her to behave reasonably around dogs, even if they are -gasp!- running. And having been the main-rider of a horse almost 80% blind in BOTH eyes, who was also an excellent and bomb-proof trail horse, that's not an impossible thing to ask.


Don't know why you'd feel sorry for them...they're fat, happy, and not afraid of dogs, so we tend to have a lot of peaceful trail rides..


you knew the dogs were there all you had to do was face them your in control of your horse you didnt have to smack the dog with a whip

how would you have felt if the lady or dog owner had smacked your horse with her leash

people have just as much right as another to be some where be it with a dog or 3 dogs if your riding on the same trial as hikers then you know full well you will mostly likely bump into a person or a person with a couple of dogs or a cyclist - so your aware of whats happening around you

control is being in control of what you see hear and do and to be in control of your animals - hers got loose so you hit it- nice
it was an accident- he got loose however which way she controls her dogs
and she appologised - no need to hit her dog
all you had to do was turn your horse around so she could see what it was
as for the eye sight - i have a horse whos blind and has less vision than yours so you have to be more aware of your enviroment - and more quicker with your aids and sometimes give a stronger aid is needed as they relaying on you - if you lacked the confidence to ride with a lady with three dogs then you have told your horse something scarey by your sub concious so effectively - already spooked the unsighted horse
so when the dog got loose he spooked moreso


was it right to hit the dog--------- no it wasnt
he was sniffing and wasnt hurting your horse nor you
didnt bark or bite - yet you hit him for no reason

had that been me - would have waited for the lady and said are you ok luckily the dog came here and didnt run off- no harm done
and waited till she caught him up or would have got off and caught the dog myself and waited for the lady to catch up
and then given him back

what if the horse was loose and the lady with the three dogs got hold off him
and hit him - what would you say then ,
and she had hit him for intereferng with her dogs

how say you -----same thing but in reverse ----what you did was out of order

Cindyg
Apr. 21, 2010, 08:12 PM
I find it amazing that your horse didn't bolt after dumping you. I would consider that a silver lining.

You know it's funny -- I have a horse who would not be safe around a bolting dog dragging a retractable leash. Therefore, I don't take him out. And I get heck from EVERYBODY who knows this that I'm afraid, I'm babying my horse, I'm not facing my issues, "it's a hole" I'm not addressing, "they" could get my horse over his not-trail-safe-ness in a heartbeat....

You just can't win. If you go out and get dumped, you're an idiot for going out when your horse "isn't ready." If you don't go out, you're an idiot for not going out.

I'm glad you weren't hurt.

GoForAGallop
Apr. 21, 2010, 08:21 PM
If she gives her horse "A come to Jesus" moment whenever it is scared, yes, I feel sorry for her horse.

You're the next state over from me, feel free to take a drive up to my barn and meet my steady-eddy trail horse. He's a big, bossy alpha who's always eager to head out for a ride. Somehow, despite being told to "Knock it off!" a few times while spooking at something ridiculous (a dog, or those dangerous yellow lines on the road), he's not cowering in the corner of his stall shaking in fear every time my 100lb self walks into the barn. :lol:

If you were at EA this year and happened to catch the Susan Harris exhibit, you'll have seen him as the Visible Horse. A very nervous visible horse who was a little overwhelmed by all the hustle and bustle. And he certainly wasn't being disciplined for that. But a dog? He knows better.

goeslikestink
Apr. 21, 2010, 08:27 PM
h2 go out with a pack of hounds then your horse wont be afraid of the odd dog or 2 or 3 lol
sometimes in our woods we bump in the hunt - dogs people horses
people of foot with dogs aswell
plus horn going all the huslte and bustle and galloping hooves
comming thundering up behind you lol
hah love it join in and ride with thehunt for a bit for free lol

LuvMyNSH
Apr. 21, 2010, 08:44 PM
Ummm, folks..I hate to break this to you...but far more people own dogs than horses...yes, some aren't really bright, some make mistakes. People have just as much right to the trails with their dogs as you do with your horse.

Most of my issues with other trail users is from problems I've had while hiking. Not sure how you read what I wrote and got "wah wah mean doggies shouldn't be on the trail" out of it.

There is no excuse for having an out of control dog out on a public trail. That sort of stupidity is what ends up getting dogs banned from public areas. I like hiking with my dogs. Mine are actually trained though. That means I do not let them harass other trail users. I'd be pissed if I have to start leaving my dogs at home because of total idiots like the woman the OP described.

mustangtrailrider
Apr. 21, 2010, 09:57 PM
Some horses, no matter how well trained, do not like dogs. Or, they do not tolerate dogs.

I fully assume responsibility for my horse during rides. I expect others to assume responsibility for their dogs.

Yes, accidents do happen!

I would much prefer someone hit my dog with a whip, if it got loose as described in OP, than it getting kicked by a horse.

I have seen a dog get kicked in the head by a horse. Not a pretty site! If that whip keeps dog from getting kicked, so be it. I would not mind it at all. It might even keep dog from "sniffing" horse's legs.

I would rather someone protect their horse if they perceive my dog a threat. I may not really like it, but I see both sides of it!

Certainly the OP was protecting horse. It can also be viewed as the OP protecting the dog.

My mare is well versed on the trail and will react in place if she is spooked. She has had dogs loose on trail with her....no reaction. However, if a dog is sniffing her hocks, I would certainly expect her to double barrell the dog. I would worry about her hocks as well....

I would chase dog away from her to protect the dog and horse....for reasons stated above.

There are two sides to every coin. I can see OP's reasons for being upset and doing what she did!

lcw579
Apr. 21, 2010, 11:57 PM
I'm with GLS and GoforaGallop. So the dog got loose - big deal. Accidents happen, you had time to talk to the dog owner, you knew they were there, you should have been prepared. You should have turned and faced the dog when it got loose. Turning would have let your horse see what was happening and it usually stops a running dog in its tracks.

Your horse spooked and you fell off that's why you're pissed. Your pride is hurt. Hitting the curious dog, glaring and giving the dog owner the silent treatment does nothing to help the image of the rider as snobby elitist. As for the dog owner's comment about barking I'm sure she was trying to diffuse a tense situation with a lame attempt at humor.

Frankly I think you handled the whole situation poorly.

wendybird
Apr. 22, 2010, 12:17 AM
Arab pony and I walking along a suburban road. Large German Shepherd dog races out from a gate just as we pass. Barks and snarls at pony's hocks. Pony lifts one leg and give a nicely timed kick. Crack of bone, dog howls and goes home. Pony and I continue along the road.
BUT: now I have a pony who goes sideways every time she sees a dog she doesn't know, which complicates every ride we take. As far as I'm concerned any dog that isn't under it's owner's control, and shows antisocial tendencies, deserves what it gets.

JollyBadger
Apr. 22, 2010, 05:10 AM
The dog got loose. That is purely the fault of the owner. Seriously. . .a flexi-lead secured with Velcro?:eek: I hate those flexi leads to begin with, and would like to see them wiped off the market altogether. They're one of the worst ideas in the history of bad ideas in the pet supply industry.

But, I hate to say it, it's really not as much the dog or owner's fault that the rider fell off. And falling is really not a good reason to take a whip to the person's dog. Part of being a trail rider means being prepared, be aware of your surroundings, and able to "sit" a spook.

What if it wasn't a dog? What if it was a deer, or a wild turkey, or rabbit that came darting through the woods? That's usually a situation you (as the rider) are not as prepared for, and one the horse isn't prepared for, either.

This is a case of "get up, dust yourself off, get back in the saddle, and learn from it so it doesn't happen again."

Huntertwo
Apr. 22, 2010, 06:24 AM
Okay for the people who just don't get it.

We were facing the dog. We were not close to each other when we talked.
Dog comes running down the trail dragging retractable lease that was held on to owner's arm by velcro.

Would you use velcro to tighten your girth and be surprised when it didn't hold? :rolleyes:

She has been my trail pony for 6 years. We have encountered Deer, Turkey, birds flying up from under her feet, Dirt Bikes, ATVs, Bicyclists, Mountain Bikes, chain saws, barking dogs on leashes, snow-shoers, log splitters, PLANES taking off over our heads. (See my first couple of paragraphs)

We have leash laws around here - meaning you must have control over your dog at all times when in public.

Legally, I could have been a real beech and called the police.

And YES! I will crack another dog with my whip should it come running after us.
If it is between my pony possibly getting bit or a charging dog??? The dog is going to get smacked. Hands down.

End of story.

Auventera Two
Apr. 22, 2010, 10:12 AM
I cannot believe the people who are arguing that an out of control, full grown Boxer ripping the leash away from his owner and charging a horse is ACCEPTABLE. Are you guys on crack? Seriously - the HORSE is stupid, and the owner is unprepared and shouldn't have the horse in public, and the horse should be whacked and reprimanded and told to "knock it off." That's insane.

When you own a dog, you have a responsibility to make sure that dog is well under control and well socialized before taking it out into public. If this was a Pit Bull, Rottie, Dobie, etc. the board would be outraged that this big dangerous breed dog was taken into public without the appropriate equipment to contain him.

Horses need to be trained and exposed to many things, yes. I agree that when you ride out on trails, you are accepting certain risks. If you aren't willing to accept that risk, then you need to stay home. Horses need to be under control, disciplined, and well mannered before they are taken out into public. However, horses don't typically charge and attack others on the trail. They spook and bolt to get away from danger. They are prey. Dogs are predators. I would not reprimand my horse for spooking and dumping me when charged and attacked by a large breed dog on a trail. Horses have eons of innate prey instinct governing many of their actions, and when you choose to ride a horse you choose to accept the risk that fight or flight may kick in at some point. The OP was dumped when the horse spooked. It happens all the time. To tell her she should have reprimanded her horse for that is crazy.

I own 3 big dogs, one being a 100 pound Pit Bull. I would not DREAM of taking one of my dogs onto a public trail, velcroed to my arm. That's just stupid. When I walk my 3 dogs at the same time, two are attached with a coupler and the Pit is by himself on the other side. I use short, sturdy leashes and my dogs wear prong pinch collars. They walk very nicely on leash but that way I am well prepared for anything that might happen. We have been rushed and approached by strange dogs that were off-leash and I need to be able to clamp down on that pinch collar and have all the control in the world "should" they decide to attack the loose dog. As the owner of a powerful breed dog, the LAST thing in the world that I need is to be proven that I was negligent should something happen. (He's a very sweet dog though that would rather lick you to death than bite, but I still take steps to avoid disaster because animals are animals and you just never know)

If the Boxer woman's dog had bitten the OP or her horse, she could have been in a world of trouble because she failed to contain the dangerous dog appropriately. Most states have leash laws, and if that dog was off-leash, and was acting viciously, then a person has the right to protect themself from said vicious dog. The horse's rider has NO knowledge of that dog's training, tendencies, past history, or ability to inflict damage. For all she knew, maybe that dog had a history of biting and she was WELL within her rights and responsibilities to protect herself and the horse anyway that she could.

Auventera Two
Apr. 22, 2010, 10:24 AM
And YES! I will crack another dog with my whip should it come running after us.
If it is between my pony possibly getting bit or a charging dog??? The dog is going to get smacked. Hands down.

End of story.

Amen.

A horse I owned as a teenager was attacked by loose dogs and there was significant damage. A well placed bite can lay a horse up for months and I'd rather have a dog with a whelt across his shoulder than a horse with a severed tendon.

katarine
Apr. 22, 2010, 10:30 AM
oh blah blah blah.

This rattle and hum from the gal who wants guard rails on trails.

Shinola happens.

We encountered a big fat mylar ballon with Frosty the snowman's face on it- floating, tethered to a tree branch deeeeeep in the woods. Chip's heart pounded out of his chest in cartoonlike fashion trying to sort that face. That's it, ban balloons!


Another time with 3 pack horses it's a gal in one of those funny pointed chinese hats, warning us of a string of llamas behind her. I'm on a 90 day horse, Mr CBM's on a 60 day horse, and none of them top to bottom knew llamas. Llama peeps hid in the dark woods so they wouldn't scare our horses, promptly scaring the horses who couldn't cypher the weird smells and odd lumpy profiles bobbing their heads. Had a llama pulled loose and sniffed my horse- it's MY fault and on ME if I come off. Bad llama bad! I can't strike one, she might spit on me :)

Own it, sister. You just flat fell off.

What if the gal had tripped and dropped the leash in trying to catch herself, and there was no velcro to place your blame on? Then what? Rocks for tripping over? No rocks, no rocks! Ban the rocks!

Tempest in a teapot.

Schune
Apr. 22, 2010, 10:41 AM
Frankly, I think the OP giving the dog a good smack with the whip was a good thing. In my opinion, there now stands a very good chance the dog has learned that the back legs of a horse are a bad thing, and should be avoided. You might be saving the dog from getting a hoof to his brain in the future.

The dog's owner failed to use common sense - a velcro attachment is not going to hold a full grown, adult boxer when it wants to leave. Period.

LarkspurCO
Apr. 22, 2010, 10:56 AM
My very green horse Shelby is dog trained. She figured this out all on her own -- if doggie comes a runnin' or a sniffin', kick it squarely and firmly out of her personal space.

A dog owner who thinks it's OK to let their dog run up to a horse is, at a minimum, just asking for a vet bill.

wateryglen
Apr. 22, 2010, 11:04 AM
I'm in the camp that the OP handled this situation poorly. 'Her 'tude sounds a bit....entitled...to me. She did not say that she was on public land. If it was private; did she have permission to ride there? Did the hiker I wonder? When this same situation presents itself to me (and it has many times) often the hiker IS the landowner or a friend of the landowner or a neighbor. And I have to apologize for my horses behavior!!! :winkgrin:

I see this as a simple horses & dogs doing what comes natural and neither should be punished. Both should be taught about the other. You should have used this as a training opportunity. And I think hitting those dogs was totally not OK. Dogs have a right to be there too. Loose OK for dogs; NOT horses! Get over it! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

wendy
Apr. 22, 2010, 11:21 AM
being both a horse rider and a hiker-with-dogs I have to say the horse riders I meet tend to be total PITAS. I frequently walk the dogs down some multi-user (but lightly used) trails near my house. The rules of these trails allow off-leash dogs; the dogs are only required to "be under the owner's control". So you're walking along, you see a horse, you call your dogs to heel, and shift sideways on the trail, intending to calmly walk past the horse while it calmly walks past you. Guess how many of the horse-riders freak out, scream at you, order you to attach leashes, ask you to stand still, or request you move totally off the trail? guess how many of the horses act spooky about something, dogs and people calmly walking along, they should have seen over and over and over again?
We also meet joggers, other hikers, and bikers while on these same trails and they just take us in stride and shift over to the other side and we pass calmly.

As a horse-rider I find the dog owners, while apparently for the most part unable to train dogs or exhibit any signs of common sense, are usually apologetic and embarrassed by their beasts behavior. When we meet people with dogs while out trail riding we just assume they are idiots and the dogs are untrained, and just attempt to slow down enough to give the owner time to get the dogs under control, and quietly shift over and pass them. Most of the time the dogs are clearly not used to horses, and either are scared, bark, or get away from the owners and run around behind the horse and sniff at the legs, while the dog owner apologizes and tries to catch their beast. Never had one actually attempt to bite or attack the horses.

mp
Apr. 22, 2010, 11:24 AM
Okay for the people who just don't get it.

We were facing the dog. We were not close to each other when we talked.
Dog comes running down the trail dragging retractable lease that was held on to owner's arm by velcro.

Would you use velcro to tighten your girth and be surprised when it didn't hold?

She has been my trail pony for 6 years. We have encountered Deer, Turkey, birds flying up from under her feet, Dirt Bikes, ATVs, Bicyclists, Mountain Bikes, chain saws, barking dogs on leashes, snow-shoers, log splitters, PLANES taking off over our heads. (See my first couple of paragraphs)

We have leash laws around here - meaning you must have control over your dog at all times when in public.

Legally, I could have been a real beech and called the police.

And YES! I will crack another dog with my whip should it come running after us.
If it is between my pony possibly getting bit or a charging dog??? The dog is going to get smacked. Hands down.

End of story.

Oh, I think most people get it. Your horse spooked at a dog that the owner accidentally let loose and you fell off. And you were so incensed about it that you were a beyotch to the owner when she apologized.

So you come here to regale the BB with your big, bad story of the awful dog owner. But there is a significant number of posters who think shit happens on trails and you should get the hell over yourself. And now you're pissed off about that.

End of story.

CoopsZippo
Apr. 22, 2010, 11:36 AM
Think it was just one of those things in life called an accident. I do not think the dog owner meant any harm.

I think you jumped the gun by going to the dressage whip immediately when the dog was just sniffing. I think a verbal correction would have been more appropriate first.

lcw579
Apr. 22, 2010, 11:56 AM
Oh, I think most people get it. Your horse spooked at a dog that the owner accidentally let loose and you fell off. And you were so incensed about it that you were a beyotch to the owner when she apologized.

So you come here to regale the BB with your big, bad story of the awful dog owner. But there is a significant number of posters who think shit happens on trails and you should get the hell over yourself. And now you're pissed off about that.

End of story.

What mp said.

We've all been there. I've turned my horse to face down bigger dogs than a boxer trying to sniff around the back legs while calmly telling the dog owner that some horses will kick. So to whoever said we'd be screaming if it was a rottie or a pitbull - not so much. I don't tend to borrow trouble. And when I fall off? You know what? It usually is my fault. :)

Oh, and if you hit my dog - I'd be pissed. My dogs are horse saavy but rescue mutt sometimes gets too close. If he gets kicked that's on him and me but not for you to go whipping him. He's usually just trying to get a good look at who's riding to see if he knows them.

LarkspurCO
Apr. 22, 2010, 12:13 PM
\ Loose OK for dogs; NOT horses!

Loose OK for dogs...really???

Most areas I ride in this is not legal.

vacation1
Apr. 22, 2010, 12:15 PM
I am aware that accidents happen, particularly with animals, and if the story had different details I might agree with those saying the OP overreacted, etc. But the details are what they are. The dog owner clearly made minimal intelligent effort to reduce the chances of her dogs getting loose. Taking three larger dogs for a walk in public and using VELCRO to affix one to your ARM is carelessness. Last time I checked, velcro isn't reliable as a means of keeping a force in motion affixed to a still object, and a human arm isn't particularly sturdy as a snubbing post for a 50lb dog.:rolleyes: It's like people who meet minimal requirements for keeping horses - AC doesn't act because it's not actually illegal to keep a horse in rusted barbed-wire fencing with three decrepit combines, a swing set and an ancient truck, but it increases the risk of an 'accident' to the point where it's not really an accident anymore, it's a unfixed but near certain party date in the future.

And I am happy the OP hit the dog with a whip; idiot dog owners usually are repeat offenders until those inconvenienced have the temerity to revisit the aggravation on them. It's hard on the dog, but your first responsibility is to your own safety and that of your animals.


If this was a Pit Bull, Rottie, Dobie, etc. the board would be outraged that this big dangerous breed dog was taken into public without the appropriate equipment to contain him.

:lol: Oh, come on now. If the OP had said the dogs were pits or rotties, the entire thread would now be totally derailed on the crazy train that is any conversation where anyone intimates that perhaps a Breed With Very Sensitive Owners did something naughty. Thank God these dogs were Boxers. Too bad they weren't Lhasas or Yorkies; if they weighed 10lbs soaking wet, nobody would have faulted the poor OP for cracking them with a whip.

Villager
Apr. 22, 2010, 12:27 PM
Well said Auventera Two- you're welcome on our urban trails anytime.

A dog is "under control" until he isn't and that can happen in a split second he has become distracted by other loose dogs and off he goes on his own trail, oblivious to his master. How can anyone guarantee their dog is 100% under control when unleashed out on the trails....? As far a urban parks go, I think they should be always leashed.

Some mention turning horse's face to the dog, what does one do when dog comes first to the horses face and starts jumping up under his jaw? Had this happen to my friend while dog owner tries to call off dog.

There are some really responsible dog owners, don't get me wrong but their are a lot of city dog owners who don't have a clue, and their dogs run them.

mp
Apr. 22, 2010, 12:40 PM
Loose OK for dogs...really???

Most areas I ride in this is not legal.

It's not legal to run red lights either, but I still exercise a little caution before entering on the green at intersections where I've seen people cruise through on a red.

It's not about who was right or wrong. Or what's legal. When you go out on public trails on your horse, you'd best be prepared because stuff happens --whether it's your horse doing something he's NEVER done before or someone who accidentally lets her dog loose.

PS -- Hitting the dog for sniffing the horse's leg doens't bother me. It seems like an overreaction (just like the whole story), but meh. I let my horse take care of that stuff himself, and he usually does -- with his front feet.

villager, IME it's better to let your horse face the scarey thing. Turns off the "flight" reflex and turns on the "fight."

Auventera Two
Apr. 22, 2010, 12:45 PM
If you let your dog loose on a public trail - in a state where there are LEASH LAWS - you better be lucky if "all" a person does is smack your dog with a crop. Because you know, the OP would have the right to call the police and file charges against a negligent dog owner and a large dog attacking her.

When you have 100 lbs. of dog running at you, or the back legs of your horse, you have no idea what his intentions are. Defend yourself now - ask questions later. ;)

If doggie owner wants to flit off in a huff over it - two words for you - LEASH LAW.

I quit turning my horse to face loose dogs when the loose dog ran up under the horse's neck snapping and growling and the horse reared on her hind legs black stallion style. I could have gone over backwards and broken my neck. It turned out the dog was a sweetheart. A big chocolate lab that once introduced to the horses never charged us again as we rode past his house. He eventually was killed by a car though and now the owner has a fence put up with a new dog. I'd rather have the horse's butt to the dog so at least he has a chance to kick. And if the dog has to be put down because he was severely injured, yes it's tragic and sad and I wouldn't sleep for weeks over it, but that's better than being killed myself.

Responsible dog owners, and responsible horse owners can coexist peacefully on the same trails. 99% of the dogs I meet are leashed and well under control. I don't turn my horse loose on public trails to run around as she wishes, and I'd expect the same in return from dog owners. EACH individual needs to have their animals under control at all times. If a horse owner hit the trails with a wimpy little piece of velcro holding a rein on the bit, we'd think they were an idiot for having inappropriate equipment for the task at hand. Ditto for fido's owner.

Accidents do happen and I think the OP's attitude would be different if the woman had done everything right, but she tripped and dropped the leash accidentally and the dog got loose. That would not have been a moment of stupidity and negligence. But velcroing an adult Boxer to your arm then trying to manhandle 2 other adult Boxers at the same time is negligence and laxity in judgement.

LarkspurCO
Apr. 22, 2010, 12:48 PM
It's not legal to run red lights either, but I still exercise a little caution before entering on the green at intersections where I've seen people cruise through on a red.

It's not about who was right or wrong. Or what's legal.

Yes but wateryglen said loose dogs were OK, so...

mp
Apr. 22, 2010, 01:04 PM
Responsible dog owners, and responsible horse owners can coexist peacefully on the same trails. 99% of the dogs I meet are leashed and well under control. EACH individual needs to have their animals under control at all times.

And shit will still happen, even when everyone is responsible.

You (universal) can try to take what happens in stride (I've had dogs run at me or pop out of the woods and my horse got buzzed -- not fun). Or expend loads of energy fuming about it and who is at fault and why. Your choice.

Or I guess you could stay home, but if you're a fumer, then you'll probably find something there to fume about, too.

Lark, I'm not keen on loose dogs either.

bort84
Apr. 22, 2010, 01:22 PM
So, once again, I think it's pretty easy to be on both sides of all of these posts.

The dog owner was irresponsible, fact. The OP didn't have the level of control on her horse she probably should have, fact.

Those facts are not mutually exclusive, so you can think the OP could have handled it better while still thinking the dog owner was irresponsible.

So, to discuss the dog owner: She clearly should not have been using flexi leashes attached to her arm by velcro if her dog is a mature boxer (no matter how sweet and well trained he may "usually" be). I don't particularly like flexi leashes either, but I think they can serve a purpose if used properly. I consider them to be sort of like a longe line, but I think they should always be locked as soon as you adjust the leash to where you want it. So she was irresponsible, but that's pretty typical, so you have to be prepared for that. At least she was attempting to keep her dogs on leash.

Discussing the OP's reaction: From the way the incident was initially described, I think the horse probably should have held her ground and not dumped you (or perhaps you weren't quite solid enough in your seat because you were distracted), but I wouldn't place blame on the dog or the horse - the blame is with the owners (both horse and dog in this case, but probably a little bit more horse owner than dog owner). On a public trail, these kinds of things can happen, so your horse should be ready for it. If your horse might not be ready for it, then you have to be ready for it (not saying you should stay at home, just be prepared).

Again, from the way the OP described the incident, it really doesn't sound like she initially thought the dog was viciously charging to attack her horse. It sounds like he got loose and wanted to come investigate, so whatever, it is the dog owners fault he got loose, but the OP falling off is something that can just happen sometimes but probably shouldn't have in this case.

Smacking the dog with the whip... Well, the OP did say he was sniffing the horse's hind legs. The OP's use of the word sniffing leads me to believe she didn't really feel like the dog was likely to bite. So was the dressage whip necessary? Probably not, but I wasn't there. The dog certainly won't be scarred for life, and it was probably safer than the kick the horse might have given. I'd have been a little worried about swatting a whip around my horse's hind legs, honestly. My guy probably would have thought that was his cue to leave all together, haha.

Anyway, OP, I see why you're mad. Most dog owners aren't all that great at doggie discipline. However, I think your generally trail broke pony probably needs a little bit more dog time and you might need to be a little more alert in your seat on trail rides - we all get dumped. It just happens.

I'm not all for dogs running willy nilly on trails either. If they are required to be leashed, they should be, but your horse should really be prepared for loose dogs. Unfortunately, some dogs actually do get nippy, and then all bets are off. My roommate (very experienced eventer) was riding my very solid appy around Audubon Park in New Orleans when a yappy snappy little terrier tore across the grass and starting biting at his ankles. Well, my horse has absolutely no problem with dogs running around him, sniffing, playing, etc, but this freaked him out and he panicked. He initially spooked in place like a good boy but did start spinning a bit when he got actually nipped. The owner was oblivious and got mad at my roomie for some reason (this is a leashes required park)... All she had said to him was, you need to get your dog under control or my horse is going to kick him hard because he's nipping.

Just trying to say that I realize there are situations where dogs are quite dangerous that are hard to prep your horses for.

Movin Artfully
Apr. 22, 2010, 02:20 PM
I agree with all sides.

---If someone's dog ever comes up to my horse uncontrolled without my permission- I will whomp the ever loving sheet out of it.

---Likewise, if my well-trained cattle dog ever runs up to you, your child, your grandmother, or your horse and is not under my control... you have my permission to do the same. She won't, because she's trained. But in the extremely minute chance that it happens, you have my absolute permission.

Along the same line of thought... when I take my horse out in public... it is my responsibility to keep my horse in check as well.

And well... riding out in public... expect the unexpected.

dalpal
Apr. 22, 2010, 04:04 PM
Most of my issues with other trail users is from problems I've had while hiking. Not sure how you read what I wrote and got "wah wah mean doggies shouldn't be on the trail" out of it.

There is no excuse for having an out of control dog out on a public trail. That sort of stupidity is what ends up getting dogs banned from public areas. I like hiking with my dogs. Mine are actually trained though. That means I do not let them harass other trail users. I'd be pissed if I have to start leaving my dogs at home because of total idiots like the woman the OP described.

I'm just tired of people beeotching about it.....most of the general public owns dogs....a good percentage aren't the brightest, conscienous dog owners...some of those dog owners use public trails.....and sheet happens even with the best behaved dog/horse/whatever...they are animals...the do have minds of their own. I'm just tired of people belly aching about things like retractable leashes...give me a break....if you aren't willing to deal with the unexpected trail riding your horse..whether it be a loose dog, cows, cars, whatever...then don't venture out. Otherwise, use it as a learning experience for your horse.

dalpal
Apr. 22, 2010, 04:10 PM
Okay for the people who just don't get it.

We were facing the dog. We were not close to each other when we talked.
Dog comes running down the trail dragging retractable lease that was held on to owner's arm by velcro.

Would you use velcro to tighten your girth and be surprised when it didn't hold? :rolleyes:

She has been my trail pony for 6 years. We have encountered Deer, Turkey, birds flying up from under her feet, Dirt Bikes, ATVs, Bicyclists, Mountain Bikes, chain saws, barking dogs on leashes, snow-shoers, log splitters, PLANES taking off over our heads. (See my first couple of paragraphs)

We have leash laws around here - meaning you must have control over your dog at all times when in public.

Legally, I could have been a real beech and called the police.

And YES! I will crack another dog with my whip should it come running after us.
If it is between my pony possibly getting bit or a charging dog??? The dog is going to get smacked. Hands down.

End of story.

Actually I don't know if the police would have done anything...the dog actually was on a leash...just not attached to the owner....so by all accounts the owner was attempting to contain her dog..whether you agree with the velcro or not..she did have her dog on a leash. It wasn't like she was just allowing the dog to run free on a leashed trail.

dalpal
Apr. 22, 2010, 04:19 PM
What mp said.

We've all been there. I've turned my horse to face down bigger dogs than a boxer trying to sniff around the back legs while calmly telling the dog owner that some horses will kick. So to whoever said we'd be screaming if it was a rottie or a pitbull - not so much. I don't tend to borrow trouble. And when I fall off? You know what? It usually is my fault. :)

Oh, and if you hit my dog - I'd be pissed. My dogs are horse saavy but rescue mutt sometimes gets too close. If he gets kicked that's on him and me but not for you to go whipping him. He's usually just trying to get a good look at who's riding to see if he knows them.

You what's interesting..the same person who whipped the dog is the same person who said she "felt sorry" for Gallop's horse..because Gallop said something about a "come to Jesus meeting"...hmmmmmmmmm....

CatOnLap
Apr. 22, 2010, 04:25 PM
about those flexi leads- someone gave me one as a present, so I tried it out and it sure seemed handy! I used it for about 6 months and really liked it.


Until the day when something crossed my dog's path into the bushes, he took off, the lock popped open when he hit the end of the locked in length, then he ran until he hit the end of the lead and it snapped where it attaches to the snap! And of course the dog kept running.

I got a NASTY whip burn as the thing recoiled into the back of my hand.

Thankfully, whatever small critter it was, got away and the dog eventually returned to my call. The whip...err.. I mean flexi lead...is in the trash.

bort84
Apr. 22, 2010, 05:53 PM
about those flexi leads- someone gave me one as a present, so I tried it out and it sure seemed handy! I used it for about 6 months and really liked it.


Until the day when something crossed my dog's path into the bushes, he took off, the lock popped open when he hit the end of the locked in length, then he ran until he hit the end of the lead and it snapped where it attaches to the snap! And of course the dog kept running.

I got a NASTY whip burn as the thing recoiled into the back of my hand.

Thankfully, whatever small critter it was, got away and the dog eventually returned to my call. The whip...err.. I mean flexi lead...is in the trash.

I always suspected something like that could happen with those things... There's no way those locks are strong enough to properly contain a big dog if he bolts from a standstill. And I don't love the placement of the handhold if you're trying to do any sort of work on the leash with your dog. Interesting. I guess if you want an adjustable length leash, you should just get a really long one and treat it like you would a longe line = )

I see those things everywhere though, and it's usually people that probably should be keeping their dog on a short leash that use them, haha. Oh well, not like that sort of situation is unique to dog owners.

mvp
Apr. 22, 2010, 07:24 PM
The velcro chick was an idiot. Granted. But she was well-intentioned.

I worry about showing anger in this situation. Had you hit the dog of a hair-trigger attorney, I think you would have quickly found yourself in deep trouble.

In similar situations where I thought I, my horse or the dog might get hurt, I have yelled at someone else's dog. I mean to sound angry. Usually that's enough. Had the dog not listened, I supposed I would have gotten more aggressive.

But then I apologize to the owner and explain that had the horse taken matters into his own steel-shod hooves, things could quickly gone down hill. I then apologize again and give them a chance to do the same. They usually do and often the exchange ends in the dog-owner catching the dog and the four of us doing a proper dog-horse introduction. Everyone walks away more educated and happy.

You can tart this up and retroactively explain that hitting the dog was about protecting it. But your posts don't suggest that that was your motive. Your refusal to accept the dog owner's apology would seal that interpretation.

Please don't set a bad example of a rider for dog owners. There are many more of them than us, and they enjoy more political power.

pezk
Apr. 22, 2010, 07:28 PM
For many yrs i owned a very good trail horse. Nothing bothered her. deer, turkeys, barking chasing dogs, dirt bikes that whizzed by, mtn bikers etc until the winter day I encountered a cross country skier. We shared the same trails but i had never encountered one because I rode during the day during the week. The poor horse - she was so scared, it was all I good do to pull her off the trail to a safe distance in the woods while the skier went past.
Then there was the day with the lady walking her GSD. But the lady was wearing a gold lame coat that sparkled differently in the sun every time she moved and made a crinkling sound. I did ask her to stop and not move while I tried to control the horse and got by her safely. Thanked her. The lady thought the horse was scared of the GSD and couldn't image that she herself was the cause of so much angst.
My point is that you never, never, know what you will encounter and different groups of people share the same trails. They have as much right to be there as I do and it's my responsibility to keep me, the horse, and them safe. A 1000 lb animal, out of control, can do alot more damage than a 100lb dog. I think the OP fell off and was pissed at herself and took it out on dog and human.

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Apr. 22, 2010, 08:21 PM
Horse was out of control. Dog was out of control. Both rider and dog walker screwed up. Sounds like dog got the worst of it.

I have some sympathy for rider. No one confines or controls their dogs where I live. If one wants to ride in the big wide world, one accepts that fact. Do I think it's right? No. I think loose dogs are a hazard, most often to themselves, but occasionally to others.

BUT - Do I think my neighbors will suddenly acquire a sense of responsibility and train/confine their dogs? HAHAHAHAHAHA. No. This is why I will never have a horse who is dog-aggressive or who spooks at dogs. I don't say I like the fact that free-range canines abound, but I accept the way the world is and conform to its ways.:)

Would I hit dog with a whip? Yeah, maybe. Would I do a lot more schooling with my horse so I don't hit the dirt the next time (and there will be a next time:yes:) I encounter a clueless dog owner? Absolutely.:)

Zwarte
Apr. 22, 2010, 08:34 PM
I wonder if there is a boxer thread somewhere discussing this incident from the dog owner's point of view.

Kitters
Apr. 22, 2010, 09:02 PM
The velcro chick was an idiot. Granted. But she was well-intentioned.

I worry about showing anger in this situation. Had you hit the dog of a hair-trigger attorney, I think you would have quickly found yourself in deep trouble.

In similar situations where I thought I, my horse or the dog might get hurt, I have yelled at someone else's dog. I mean to sound angry. Usually that's enough. Had the dog not listened, I supposed I would have gotten more aggressive.

But then I apologize to the owner and explain that had the horse taken matters into his own steel-shod hooves, things could quickly gone down hill. I then apologize again and give them a chance to do the same. They usually do and often the exchange ends in the dog-owner catching the dog and the four of us doing a proper dog-horse introduction. Everyone walks away more educated and happy.

You can tart this up and retroactively explain that hitting the dog was about protecting it. But your posts don't suggest that that was your motive. Your refusal to accept the dog owner's apology would seal that interpretation.

Please don't set a bad example of a rider for dog owners. There are many more of them than us, and they enjoy more political power.


:yes: This is exactly what I wanted to express, only you said is much more eloquently and concisely than I would have managed. :yes:

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Apr. 22, 2010, 09:13 PM
And I can't think of anything I could sue the OP for.:)

But in my state, dogs are property. This is kind of a bad thing, because it means someone can kill your dog in front of you in slow and painful ways and you can only recover the value of the dog. Happens a lot in battered-women cases (batterers being household terrorists, in addition to being wastes of oxygen, but I digress). Our legislators have a bill now to try to change this state of affairs, but who knows if it will pass.

Anyway, this issue is very state-dependent. Some states allow for emotional damages to the owner, some don't.

saratoga
Apr. 23, 2010, 12:01 AM
I'm of the opinion that you never know whats going to happen out there and I hate blaming other trail users for problems with our horses. All trail users have to get along and if anyone is going to be cut off from the trails, its probably the horses.
Riders who freak out about loose dogs tend to annoy me. Now, I'm not talking about dogs who "attack" horses. I'm sure that happens, but usually its just dogs who are either minding their own business and happen to be next to the horse, or maybe run up to a horse. I sometimes take my dogs out with me. They are obviously very used to horses and are not acting threatening, but every so often a rider will start carrying on, screeching for me to get my dogs away from them- I'm sure its out of fear, but its annoying! We do have neighbors who live a half mile down the street- they have a bunch of Great Pyrs who run out and bark at us- I think the size and whiteness are what gets my horses, since they are not afraid of dogs- but usually they do spook at those dogs. I'm not about to go postal on these neighbors though. Live and let live.

Auventera Two
Apr. 23, 2010, 08:25 AM
This conversation would have a totally different tone if the OP had been pushing her 5 month old baby in a stroller and the dog tore loose from its owner and came charging at her and the baby ;) But since its a big tough mean horse, then it's ok.

I watched something happen in the vet clinic a few weeks back that was really interesting......A husband/wife were sitting in the waiting room their tiny little teacup toy terriers. I was waiting in line to buy some bute. A guy came out of the exam room with a Pit Bull that was probably 70-80 lbs. She was happy and wagging her tail, came up to my leg and leaned up against me. LOL. I scratched her all over and she just wagged and wagged all the harder, licked my hands, all that sweet stuff. She wanted to go over by husband/wife to say hi and lick them and get scratches. The two snatched their dogs, stuffed them under their arms, jumped up off the bench like they were ejected out of the seats, and moved to the other side of the room!

I was thinking, geez dumb people, can't they see the dog had no bad intentions? But I guess everybody reads body language differently. Maybe they didn't notice the wagging tail. All they saw was a big Pit Bull coming at them and their snack pack of doggie nuggets.

They got called back to the exam room, so then it was just me and the Pit Bull guy there. I said "Wow, they seemed scared of her didn't they?" He was like - "Yeah, everybody does that. It used to bother me but it doesn't anymore. I guess people don't know her, and don't know that she's a big lamb chop. It's not their fault."

So really, it's true - when a strange dog is coming at you, you DON'T know that dog's intentions, his temperament, his past history, or what he's capable of. It's better to be safe than sorry. It was better for those people to take the doggie nuggets to the other side of the room instead of sitting there in fear and feeling threatened by the big dog. For all they knew, he'd eaten 3 other little dogs for breakfast. They didn't know. I didn't feel threatened because I didn't have any tiny cargo to protect, I own a Pit Bull, and I'm fairly dog savvy and could see the wagging tail and loose facial expression. But clearly they DID feel threatened, and they were WELL within their rights to remove themselves from a situation they felt was threatening and unsafe. (And FWIW, the scenario could have played out the same with any big breed dog - it just so happened to be a Pit.)

RidingAllDay
Apr. 23, 2010, 08:51 AM
oh blah blah blah.

This rattle and hum from the gal who wants guard rails on trails.

Shinola happens.

We encountered a big fat mylar ballon with Frosty the snowman's face on it- floating, tethered to a tree branch deeeeeep in the woods. Chip's heart pounded out of his chest in cartoonlike fashion trying to sort that face. That's it, ban balloons!


Another time with 3 pack horses it's a gal in one of those funny pointed chinese hats, warning us of a string of llamas behind her. I'm on a 90 day horse, Mr CBM's on a 60 day horse, and none of them top to bottom knew llamas. Llama peeps hid in the dark woods so they wouldn't scare our horses, promptly scaring the horses who couldn't cypher the weird smells and odd lumpy profiles bobbing their heads. Had a llama pulled loose and sniffed my horse- it's MY fault and on ME if I come off. Bad llama bad! I can't strike one, she might spit on me :)

Own it, sister. You just flat fell off.

What if the gal had tripped and dropped the leash in trying to catch herself, and there was no velcro to place your blame on? Then what? Rocks for tripping over? No rocks, no rocks! Ban the rocks!

Tempest in a teapot.

Amen Sister!

I ride on trail with my loose Boxers all the time. Beware the little creatures of the forest but everyone else is fine. If someone had hit my Boxer with a whip they would have found themselves BACK in the dirt! I don't give a sheee ite who was right or wrong.

My horse is to look to me for spook incidents and guess what, he does.

Maybe if you had continued the discussion with her, you could have talked about velcro and flexi leads and how silly that concept is.

Good luck on the trail and be nice to Boxers :)

lcw579
Apr. 23, 2010, 09:49 AM
A2 - Call me crazy but even if the dog came running up to me and a baby in a stroller I wouldn't have had a fit. Been there done that with big dogs and small children. My response "Hello puppy" and then I usually meet the dog and the owner. This dog was running up out of curiousity not barking and foaming at the mouth.

Everybody really just needs to relax. Dogs and horses go together - at least they do in my world. If you tense up and act the fool of course your horse is going to. If you stay calm and act like it is no big deal horse usually does too. Horsemanship 101.

We meet them off lead all over the place. We are also lucky that landowners still allow us to go through their properties and there are some big dogs in various spots who are contained by invisible fence. There are a few that love to dash out and bark. Some of the horses spook, a lot. But it is up to the rider to teach the horse that it is not a big deal, just a dog.

If you ever want to foxhunt you better get that horse used to hounds in and around its legs without caring or kicking. Hurt a hound and you're toast.

Trakehner
Apr. 23, 2010, 09:51 AM
I've got a soft spot for Boxers...grew up with them. My first boxer just knew I was her puppy and she was always putting herself between me an any threats, which amused my pony to no end.

I was riding my Trakehner one day and a BIG white & black harlequin great dane came wandering down from a house bordering the trails...he was young and a beautiful dog. He came over quietly waging his tail and looking very happy at finding an even bigger "dog" than him. I patted my horse in front of the saddle and said, "Well, c'mon up" and the dog put his front legs on my guy...jeeze he was big. My horse knew and actually loved dogs, any dog. I'd carry one of the old jack russels on some rides when he was pooped. The poor owner came running over the hill to see where his dog was...he was so shocked to see his dog happily being patted while he had his paws on a big white horse who was happily eating grass. Got a lot of goodwill that ride...and the dog would come to my call to say "Hi!"...I carried dog treats and his owner managed a few carrots for my guy too.

But that's rare.

Like the parents(?) who bred ill-behaved feral children, they also own dogs equally as wonderful. Ill mannered brats with 4 legs. My mule gets VERY interested when dogs are within hoof reach, front or back. So far, he's only killed a fox...you mess with longears and your dog at your own risk.

I hate lose dogs, one idiot woman liked to collect dogs, mostly pit-looking mutts...some scary dogs to run into in the field. These specific dogs needed the classic, S.S.S. A crop smack on a dog sniffing my horse is deserved and well earned. If the owners won't teach manners, why should we suffer?

mp
Apr. 23, 2010, 10:02 AM
This conversation would have a totally different tone if the OP had been pushing her 5 month old baby in a stroller and the dog tore loose from its owner and came charging at her and the baby ;) But since its a big tough mean horse, then it's ok.

And my brother would be my sister if he were a female.


I watched something happen in the vet clinic a few weeks back that was really interesting......A husband/wife were sitting in the waiting room their tiny little teacup toy terriers. I was waiting in line to buy some bute. A guy came out of the exam room with a Pit Bull that was probably 70-80 lbs. She was happy and wagging her tail, came up to my leg and leaned up against me.

insert rest of pit bull ramble ...

Did you mean to post this on another thread? Or maybe a dog forum?

lcw -- I agree. I'm pretty sure one reason my horses don't react much to non-aggressive dogs (loose or on a leash) is that *I* don't react to them. I've only had one come at us with less than friendly intentions. Horse knew what to do.They're born with that knowledge, I believe. ;)

katarine
Apr. 23, 2010, 10:09 AM
if the story ended with the OP waking up in a bathtub full of ice with an incision over her kidney, it sure would be a different story, eh?

wateryglen
Apr. 23, 2010, 10:19 AM
Interesting that we still don't know if the OP was on truly public land or private land (with/without permission). :cool: I'm starting to wonder.......:uhoh: Much of this debate really depends on knowing this!! All land is owned by someone ya know!

If there are leash laws then the publics law should be honored. But if it's private land; then the landowners rights/preferences should be honored! Hence my comment that their loose dogs are ok on ones own land. The rider is technically trespassing with or without permission so.....

I find most dogs that come up barking & running at you are protecting their territory. They give up if you calmly just keep going forward. I even talk calmly to them giving them reassurance. Sometimes even.."Good dog!!" because they are doing what they're supposed to be doing. It's instinct to protect their turf/farm/home/human/self, right? Breeds & sizes don't matter. IMHO Jack Russells are the worst!!! :winkgrin::D:lol:

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Apr. 23, 2010, 11:40 AM
I find most dogs that come up barking & running at you are protecting their territory. They give up if you calmly just keep going forward. I even talk calmly to them giving them reassurance. Sometimes even.."Good dog!!" because they are doing what they're supposed to be doing. It's instinct to protect their turf/farm/home/human/self, right? Breeds & sizes don't matter. IMHO Jack Russells are the worst!!! :winkgrin::D:lol:

:yes: When loose dogs come running up at me, I usually say, in a high-pitched friendly voice, "Why, you must be the guard dog! What a good job you're doing!"

Which generally results in a tail-wagging, smiling dog saying something like "Yes, I am. Thank you for noticing." in canine.:winkgrin:

And we all continue on with our lives.:)

I can't imagine why people always assume that an animal-aggressive dog will also be people-aggressive. This is usually not the case. But the OP doesn't even describe an aggressive dog. Just a full-of-himself unrestrained canine. So WTF is up with the baby carriage menaced by the Hound of the Baskervilles?:lol:

franknbeans
Apr. 23, 2010, 12:31 PM
I have not read all the posts-I admit it.

But have to say-I have 2 VERY dog tolerant horses-one used to have a dog "ride around" the pasture hanging onto his tail-and loved it! (I on the other hand like a longer tail :)) ) and another who is used to the barn dog jumping at the hose spray while I am bathing him......UGH! But it does help make him "bombproof". (which there is NO such thing as....BTW) However-either one would certainly spook at a dog running at them on a trail, and I certainly would be a bit upset too, just as the OP was. The "dog" lady has a responsibilty to control her dogs, and yes, she was trying, and it was an accident. Frankly she is VERY fortunate she still has 3 dogs! Could just as easily been down to 2 after the pony (who had EVERY right) double barreled the loose one! A dressage whip is NOTHING, and I hope the dog learned something!

Glad you are ok-

mp
Apr. 23, 2010, 12:35 PM
I ride on trail with my loose Boxers all the time.

... and some people ride combat. Wheeeee!!!!

Movin Artfully
Apr. 23, 2010, 12:36 PM
One of the best threads I've seen in a long time. ROTFL:

input from a hair-trigger attorney...
a terrifying gold lame suit...
feral children...
waking up in bathtub full of ice w an incision over the kidney...

I suppose I should clarify that I do not endorse dog abuse; I will also feel free to whomp any feral children, hair-trigger attorneys, or offenders in gold lame suits who run up and sniff legs (the horse's or mine) without permission/control as well ;)

lcw579
Apr. 23, 2010, 01:06 PM
:yes: When loose dogs come running up at me, I usually say, in a high-pitched friendly voice, "Why, you must be the guard dog! What a good job you're doing!"

Which generally results in a tail-wagging, smiling dog saying something like "Yes, I am. Thank you for noticing." in canine.:winkgrin:

And we all continue on with our lives.:)



I am so happy to learn I am not the only one who tells the dogs what a good job they are doing. Sometimes I tell the little ones they are really scary too! :lol: It does seem to make them happy.

For the record, the scariest thing we've ever come across on the trail was a troop of boyscouts relieving themselves in the woods. :eek: I was in the lead, trotting along when pony stops dead snorting, mom's horse barrels into pony's rump and so on. I get a "what are you stopping for?!" Slowly realization dawns as the adults notice the boyscouts saluting their trees. :winkgrin: It was pretty funny, nobody knew just where to look. Finally we just trotted on. But my pony never did like boyscouts after that! :lol::lol:

didgery
Apr. 23, 2010, 01:07 PM
Hmm. Not having read all the responses (and I'm sure there are some fun ones), I just have to say that smacking a dog with a whip for the crime of sniffing seems more unsafe and unfriendly than walking a dog on a velcro leash. Sounds like everyone in this scenario could have used some better trail-sharing manners.

trubandloki
Apr. 23, 2010, 01:16 PM
I'm with GLS and GoforaGallop. So the dog got loose - big deal. Accidents happen, you had time to talk to the dog owner, you knew they were there, you should have been prepared. You should have turned and faced the dog when it got loose. Turning would have let your horse see what was happening and it usually stops a running dog in its tracks.

Your horse spooked and you fell off that's why you're pissed. Your pride is hurt. Hitting the curious dog, glaring and giving the dog owner the silent treatment does nothing to help the image of the rider as snobby elitist. As for the dog owner's comment about barking I'm sure she was trying to diffuse a tense situation with a lame attempt at humor.

Frankly I think you handled the whole situation poorly.

This!

dizzywriter
Apr. 23, 2010, 03:02 PM
if the story ended with the OP waking up in a bathtub full of ice with an incision over her kidney, it sure would be a different story, eh?

Having once been suspected of being an organ smuggler (long and funny story involving match.com), I had to laugh at this.

Actually, I'm only posting because I'm supposed to be a stalker, so I thought I should stalk, at least a little bit. This counts as stalking, right?

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Apr. 23, 2010, 03:18 PM
I am so happy to learn I am not the only one who tells the dogs what a good job they are doing. Sometimes I tell the little ones they are really scary too! :lol: It does seem to make them happy.

Oh, yes, it's especially important to give the vertically-challenged canine his/her props.:yes:

Although sometimes they really are scary. I met a Jack-ahuahua on my lunchtime walk the other day!:eek: She looked just like a purse-sized pit bull - and acted like she could take on all comers, too.:lol: Her friend, a resigned-looking miniature poodle, advised me to just ignore her.:winkgrin:

Calico
Apr. 23, 2010, 03:27 PM
... and some people ride combat. Wheeeee!!!!

I think you mean commando :lol: Learned that right here on COTH, I did.

mp
Apr. 23, 2010, 03:40 PM
Combat = the same thing.

trubandloki
Apr. 23, 2010, 03:43 PM
Combat = the same thing.

Wow, something new I learned here on COTH. Always a good place for new information I say.

Kyzteke
Apr. 23, 2010, 03:49 PM
Err, how about training your horse not to be afraid of dogs before taking IT out in public?

None of my horses are afraid of dogs (or dragging ropes, for that matter) so a dog dragging a "rope" should be no big deal. If any of my horses ever spooked at a dog (which they clearly saw....I'm not talking about a startle if something comes lunging out of the woods) there would be a "Come to Jesus" meeting for sure, and it wouldn't be between me and the dog.


People, train your horses. Surely you're not expecting dogs to be kicked off trails? Cause lemme tell you, horses will be the first to go, not hikers. Live and let live. Yes, the lady should have kept hold of her dog...but she DID have it on a leash, clearly something just went wrong. And the dog clearly was not vicious (casually sniffing the horse's back legs...just curious.) So the horse owner was at fault here, with their dog-sensitive horse.

YES, YES and MORE yes!

More people in America own dogs than horses, and more people walk their dogs than ride their horses....so if it was ever to come to an actual "showdown" about use of public space it's not gonna be the riders that win.

I have very one very annoying dog (a heeler), so my horses are very schooled in dogs running under their legs, belly, etc. Stuff like dragging ropes, tarps, ATV's, trains (we lived near a well-used track), logging trucks, etc. are all part of their education.

But the biggest part of their education is to follow MY lead -- if I am calm and "brave," they will be as well...and the more we do it, the better they get.

If you are going to go outside an arena, then you will be going out in the wide, wide world, where anything can happen. So you want your horse to be prepared for EVERYTHING. Naturally you can't train or desensitize your horse to everything, but you CAN train your horse to see you as the leader and remain calm if you are calm. There are plenty of methods out there -- from the John Lyons school to the Mounted Police "Bomb proofing" type clinics. Pick one if you feel you need guidance and make your horse safer for you.

We are all taught "defensive driving" in Driver's Ed. There is also such a thing as "defensive riding." Learn, practice it, and put the responsibility squarely where it belongs....:yes:

goeslikestink
Apr. 23, 2010, 04:01 PM
being both a horse rider and a hiker-with-dogs I have to say the horse riders I meet tend to be total PITAS. I frequently walk the dogs down some multi-user (but lightly used) trails near my house. The rules of these trails allow off-leash dogs; the dogs are only required to "be under the owner's control". So you're walking along, you see a horse, you call your dogs to heel, and shift sideways on the trail, intending to calmly walk past the horse while it calmly walks past you. Guess how many of the horse-riders freak out, scream at you, order you to attach leashes, ask you to stand still, or request you move totally off the trail? guess how many of the horses act spooky about something, dogs and people calmly walking along, they should have seen over and over and over again?
We also meet joggers, other hikers, and bikers while on these same trails and they just take us in stride and shift over to the other side and we pass calmly.

As a horse-rider I find the dog owners, while apparently for the most part unable to train dogs or exhibit any signs of common sense, are usually apologetic and embarrassed by their beasts behavior. When we meet people with dogs while out trail riding we just assume they are idiots and the dogs are untrained, and just attempt to slow down enough to give the owner time to get the dogs under control, and quietly shift over and pass them. Most of the time the dogs are clearly not used to horses, and either are scared, bark, or get away from the owners and run around behind the horse and sniff at the legs, while the dog owner apologizes and tries to catch their beast. Never had one actually attempt to bite or attack the horses.

with you wendy all the way, couldnt have put it better

if one panics and screams to get there dog on the leash they have already told the horse to be scared of the dogs if they had ignored the dogs then the horse will too

goeslikestink
Apr. 23, 2010, 04:19 PM
about those flexi leads- someone gave me one as a present, so I tried it out and it sure seemed handy! I used it for about 6 months and really liked it.


Until the day when something crossed my dog's path into the bushes, he took off, the lock popped open when he hit the end of the locked in length, then he ran until he hit the end of the lead and it snapped where it attaches to the snap! And of course the dog kept running.

I got a NASTY whip burn as the thing recoiled into the back of my hand.

Thankfully, whatever small critter it was, got away and the dog eventually returned to my call. The whip...err.. I mean flexi lead...is in the trash.


haha someone brought me one for a present - you know never used it total waste of time, i use wait for it the best leads haha

leadropes lol well i have plenty apart from panda pup as shes has new collar harness and lead as shes dinky blooming lead rope be to thick for her but a flexi lead would be ok just i dont like them at all and have know other people to break theres on the 1st walk

goeslikestink
Apr. 23, 2010, 04:33 PM
This conversation would have a totally different tone if the OP had been pushing her 5 month old baby in a stroller and the dog tore loose from its owner and came charging at her and the baby ;) But since its a big tough mean horse, then it's ok.

I watched something happen in the vet clinic a few weeks back that was really interesting......A husband/wife were sitting in the waiting room their tiny little teacup toy terriers. I was waiting in line to buy some bute. A guy came out of the exam room with a Pit Bull that was probably 70-80 lbs. She was happy and wagging her tail, came up to my leg and leaned up against me. LOL. I scratched her all over and she just wagged and wagged all the harder, licked my hands, all that sweet stuff. She wanted to go over by husband/wife to say hi and lick them and get scratches. The two snatched their dogs, stuffed them under their arms, jumped up off the bench like they were ejected out of the seats, and moved to the other side of the room!

I was thinking, geez dumb people, can't they see the dog had no bad intentions? But I guess everybody reads body language differently. Maybe they didn't notice the wagging tail. All they saw was a big Pit Bull coming at them and their snack pack of doggie nuggets.

They got called back to the exam room, so then it was just me and the Pit Bull guy there. I said "Wow, they seemed scared of her didn't they?" He was like - "Yeah, everybody does that. It used to bother me but it doesn't anymore. I guess people don't know her, and don't know that she's a big lamb chop. It's not their fault."

So really, it's true - when a strange dog is coming at you, you DON'T know that dog's intentions, his temperament, his past history, or what he's capable of. It's better to be safe than sorry. It was better for those people to take the doggie nuggets to the other side of the room instead of sitting there in fear and feeling threatened by the big dog. For all they knew, he'd eaten 3 other little dogs for breakfast. They didn't know. I didn't feel threatened because I didn't have any tiny cargo to protect, I own a Pit Bull, and I'm fairly dog savvy and could see the wagging tail and loose facial expression. But clearly they DID feel threatened, and they were WELL within their rights to remove themselves from a situation they felt was threatening and unsafe. (And FWIW, the scenario could have played out the same with any big breed dog - it just so happened to be a Pit.)

turn it around - what say if the horse was out of control and spooked the
owner with her dogs and freightened her and them so that she accidentally lost a dog in the process
here with the op we have oneside of a storey we dont have the owner with dogs s ide
am putting this up as a s senerio as you did
as normally as you havent got kids any mum will tell you that to push and shove a stroller or pram or pushchair over a trackey terrian with rocks and stones aholes made by horses, or muddy trial just isnt going to happen

as its blooming hard work lol so they tend to opt for a foot path and rules are for uk no riders are allowed on foot paths by ways yes bridle paths yes
but pedesterians can use any path
and dogs do have to be under control ie on a lead unless its private property
or open public places

this surgest its public

So, went on a what started as a nice trail ride this afternoon. A trail I recently discovered goes directly right by the end of a runway at a small airport.
The end of the run way is really built up to clear the tree tops in the state forest. So, you can't see the planes until they are airborne right over you, which is actually pretty cool.

Just as I was riding by the runway, I heard a plane starting take off...eek!
It buzzed right above the treetops above us and I was amazed that Twinkie wasn't fazed in the least....

Tiger Horse
Apr. 23, 2010, 04:41 PM
I am a rider and a dog owner - paramount to me is safety - mine, my horse, my dog. Most folks, who use the same trails I do, have no idea about how frightening they can be to my horse, add a loose dog and you've just upped the odds that someone is going to get hurt. I try to be nice. I try to educate fellow trail users. Still, some people just don't seem to get it. We have posted leash laws - that protects me, my horse, my dog, your dog and yes, even you.

I love my dog - he is well behaved - but, he stays on a leash when we are out and about. Why? Because it keeps him safe. As good as he is, dogs will be dogs, I don't have to worry about him chasing something into the street, running into old barbed wire, coyotes, whatever.

I realize accidents happen - but, a little old fashioned common sense goes a long way!

RidingAllDay
Apr. 23, 2010, 04:45 PM
... and some people ride combat. Wheeeee!!!!

Ha you silly git, thats Commando not combat. My Boxer DOGS, I should have said :winkgrin::winkgrin: Can't get nuthin past this crowd.

mp
Apr. 23, 2010, 04:47 PM
'round here, it's either.

Now pull up those loose boxers.

Calico
Apr. 23, 2010, 05:04 PM
So for the safety of all on the trail it's ok to ride combat as long as you're firmly holding your Boxers. But what if you're firmly holding someone else's Boxers?

mp
Apr. 23, 2010, 05:16 PM
It's OK, as long as they're not velcro'd to your arm.

dizzywriter
Apr. 23, 2010, 05:55 PM
So for the safety of all on the trail it's ok to ride combat as long as you're firmly holding your Boxers. But what if you're firmly holding someone else's Boxers?

Then you're riding someone else.
...Or doing the laundry.

lcw579
Apr. 23, 2010, 07:02 PM
Then you're riding someone else.
...Or doing the laundry.

:lol::lol::lol:

Moderator 1
Apr. 23, 2010, 10:04 PM
Rein it back into reality a bit folks... ;)

Thanks!
Mod 1

mvp
Apr. 24, 2010, 08:51 AM
Rein it back into reality a bit folks... ;)

Thanks!
Mod 1

OK. I'm not a dog expert, but the handful of boxers I have known have been sweet, even tender dogs.

I do know that dogs and horses can go from curious and tentative to defensive in a moment. But animals are pretty honest. They'll tell you when their ramping up for that. The "beat first, just in case" isn't usually necessary as the OP argued.

I'd be pissed if someone decided to train my animal along these lines without giving me a chance to do it my way. However they want to handle their animal is fine, but they ought not to make decisions for other peoples' animals.

JoZ
Apr. 26, 2010, 01:43 AM
I have a big bruise on my arm today from a boxer. But it's not what you think...

Our barn dog Leia is the most wonderful, cuddliest goofball of a boxer. She loves everyone -- people, horses, kitties. But she is bouncy in that boxer-ish way. I was turning out my yearling and Leia came up behind us doing that boxer bounce. I was JUUUUUUST pushing back the gate when this occurred and the filly ran over the top of me, smashing my arm into one of the rungs on the gate. Owie owie owie.

My friend heard me yelp and then yell at the filly, and asked what had happened. When I told her that Leia had bounded up behind us and set off the filly, she came over to get the dog and put her elsewhere. I said absolutely not. We practiced going back and forth through that gate WITH the inquisitive boxer still milling about, until I felt that that filly knew what was expected. I'm really hoping that Leia is helping us to create good equine citizens so we can visit public use trails safely. I want us to be prepared because to my mind a trail horse that has issues with dogs belongs at home.

Aussie_Dog
Apr. 26, 2010, 08:06 AM
I don't own Boxers, have never even met one, but I do know that they're classic goofballs, children in fur coats. That Boxer probably saw the horses and wanted to play, go check it out. Since the owner called out and asked if the horse was okay with barking, it sounds to me that she knew her dog(s) were excitable around horses. That Boxer was probably the barker in the past. The OP didn't mention if any of the dogs barked, just that the Boxer bolted. Now, I will agree that any kind of leash attached to velcro with a strong dog at the end of it, that's just asking for trouble. I have a reliable dog and I would never attach his leash to velcro. All it takes is one jerk on the leash because he caught sight of a rabbit, and I won't be able to catch the leash in time. Most likely, the end of the leash will slip just past my fingers as my hand clenches over it. His leash is always looped in my hand, with the loop actually over my thumb (seriously, try it. The thumb is a STRONG anchor).

Personally, I love Flexis, but they're only great with owners who have common sense. And I just want to point out that the BRAND of Flexi is great; other knockoff brands seem to be the weak ones that break. I've owned two Flexis, and one retractable leash that was not the Flexi brand and that was the only one that was junk. Seriously, it broke the day it arrived (I ordered it off ebay). It wouldn't retract very well at all; I would stand there manually pushing 20' of string back into the handle, while Jake was sitting there next to me watching. And while growing up, Jake has had his share of bolting and I've never had a problem with the Flexi. I've had the handle yanked out of my hand, and that was always because I wasn't paying attention. Jake's first Flexi (the one during his training years) suffered a lot of abuse, from a teething Jake, to being dragged through mud, sand, puddles, snow, dragged over concrete or ice. Being stepped on by a human foot stop the dragging, or dropped from a high distance (without the dog attached to it, lol), or left outside in the rain or snow. It lasted a good 6 years without any mechanical issues (though the thumb button was a bit morphed from tooth marks and was slightly "sticky"). It finally died when the string snapped at a weak spot when Jake decided to play tag with a Bouvier through a fence. Then I got the junk retractable (and instead used it as a cat leash), then spent a couple of years with just the ordinary leashes before I finally got a new red one. It's still going great, but then again, Jake's all grown up, well-trained, and the leash doesn't have the chance to be abused anymore.

Another thing, many people have voiced experiences with horses who had one issue with something, and continued to be troublesome with the same thing afterwards. That brings up the fact that the Boxer was just sniffing the horse, getting to see it up close (I have no doubt that he's only seen the horses from afar). When suddenly he gets a whack with a whip. Dogs are just like horses in that a bad experience can change them for the future. Who's the say that from now on, that same Boxer won't get aggressive to future horses? He's now experienced pain that came out of nowhere and appeared to have no reason attached to it (now, if the horse was moving, he might link that to the pain, but from what I read, the horse was standing calmly, doing nothing). Now, when he sees horses, he's going to associate them with the surprise pain, and I'll bet that he's going to be a barky mess when he sees them. Wouldn't surprise me, either, if he lunges at the horses as they pass. Of course, it could go the opposite way: Boxer sees horses in the distance, and wants to turn tail and run. Then, as the horses are getting closer, the owner of the 3 dogs is having greater and greater difficulty getting the panicking dog to calm down, which is lowering her control of the other 2 dogs.

Now, if my dog did something that put someone else in danger, I would definitely work on it myself. He's seen horses only a handful of times in his life (barking and howling at them through a fence, but once he saw me stroking one's face, he got closer to sniff it, and calmed right down and ignored them), so if I saw horses coming towards me, I'd immediately go on the alert and do whatever is needed to keep Jake calm and at the same time, let him learn from the experience. If an accident happens that made me lose my grip on the leash (on a trail, lets say my footing slips over rocks or a hole in the ground), and Jake bolted towards the horses, then I would NOT want anyone else to take it upon themselves to train him for me. Those riders are strangers, he's not going to gain any benefit from them. He needs ME, the pack leader, the teacher, the one he knows and respects, to show him what's what. Jake is a herding dog, so I already can tell you that he would appear aggressive, circling back and forth by or around the horses, howling. What you don't see is that he's actually too afraid to go anywhere near the horses, so trust me, you're completely safe. The horses are at a greater risk, at that point, to turn tail and run, and for that I'd accept full responsibility and apologize until I'm blue in the face, but accidents happen. If you let anger take over and smack my dog, I'm going to get angry as well and I'm no longer thinking as the owner who made a mistake. I'm now thinking as an enraged owner who watched some moron touch property that isn't hers to touch and possibly damage it (Jake's a sensitive guy; I have to tailor his training to meet with the specific way his brain is wired)

Absolutely no one, owner or otherwise, should even THINK about training a dog while angry. There's nothing more stupid than disciplining a dog through anger. Always have a sense of calm or else there's the risk that you're making a huge mistake that's going to mess that dog up. Another big reason the OP shouldn't have touched the dog. If he had to be disciplined, she should have waited for the owner to reach them so she could do it herself. If the owner felt that the situation didn't warrant discipline, then that's her prerogative, just like it's the rider's prerogative whether or not she decides to scold the horse for freaking. It's her dog, her "property," and it's not anyone else's right to decide what to do with him.

katyb
Apr. 26, 2010, 08:38 AM
I cannot believe the people who are arguing that an out of control, full grown Boxer ripping the leash away from his owner and charging a horse is ACCEPTABLE.

I don't think anyone said it is acceptable, just that accidents happen, and horses and riders should be prepared. I can't imagine why the horse spooked, if the rider had the horse facing the dogs before the dog got loose.

I have a four-year-old horse, still green, obviously, but if she spooks at a dog, bike, deer, four-wheeler, golf cart, hot air balloon, paraplane, oil well - all things we've encountered in the last month - well, than that means I haven't done my job and have more work to do. The thing is, she doesn't. She trusts her rider, stops and looks, then moves on when asked. If you can't train your horse not to spook at dogs, then you need either a professional trainer or to ride in a controlled environment.

mustangtrailrider
Apr. 26, 2010, 11:13 AM
If anyone considers my dog threatening, I would fully support what ever they did to "diffuse" the situation. I might not be happy about it, but I don't want someone to be afraid of my dogs or their horses.

If a strange dog came over to my horses, I would do what is necessary to get the dogs to leave me and my horse alone. Whatever it takes. If I am on horse back, I will chase at dog and growl at it. If the dog has left its property as it is "guarding" it, I will tell it good dog. It is doing its job. If the dog/s are packing up and dividing and conquering, I will stand ground and charge at nearest dogs. I will protect my horse and charge at the dogs as needed.

I was in a nasty situation a while ago. A large "pack" of dogs lived on a corner that I rarely go down. I was cutting up the dirt road back towards home when a large pack of not so nice dogs flanked us in the woods, circling around us. I used mare to walk towards lead dog, chased it. Went to the next threat, chased it....eventually able to walk out of the situation. Mare is not scared of dogs, but when a pack is "hunting" us, I will do whatever I have to do to not get attacked.

I have no problem with loose dogs that are off leash. I know the difference, therefor, my mare knows the difference.

Aussie_Dog
Apr. 26, 2010, 01:45 PM
I was in a nasty situation a while ago. A large "pack" of dogs lived on a corner that I rarely go down. I was cutting up the dirt road back towards home when a large pack of not so nice dogs flanked us in the woods, circling around us. I used mare to walk towards lead dog, chased it. Went to the next threat, chased it....eventually able to walk out of the situation. Mare is not scared of dogs, but when a pack is "hunting" us, I will do whatever I have to do to not get attacked.

That's a different situation. Even if almost all the dogs are well-trained, well-behaved animals, all it takes is one mischievous little guy and the whole pack literally goes into the "pack mentality" and you've got a mob on your hands. Even the owners of the dogs could have a difficult time getting the dogs back in hand, unless they were proactive and got all the dogs rounded up and tied, their attentions on their owner(s). The owner that lets his pack escalate is an irresponsible owner. I would like to think that anyone who has a group of dogs knows what they are capable of, and plan things out in advance. You know, looking ahead down the trail, making sure all 7 doggie noses are accounted for, calling them back to you every now and then (keep the reflexes sharp!), and of course, calling everyone back to you when you so much as hear a twig snap a mile down the trail.

wendy
Apr. 26, 2010, 02:35 PM
Call me crazy but even if the dog came running up to me and a baby in a stroller I wouldn't have had a fit. Been there done that with big dogs and small children. My response "Hello puppy" and then I usually meet the dog and the owner. This dog was running up out of curiousity not barking and foaming at the mouth.

Everybody really just needs to relax.
yeah, what's the big deal? 99.9% of dogs aren't going to just run up to you and tear you limb from limb, especially if you are calm and relaxed when they arrive. Animals are animals, and even the best behaved ones occasionally don't behave, and leashes/collars do fail at times.

I've seen little dog owners TRIGGER attacks by loose big dogs entirely due to their freaking out at the calm, curious dog's approach. What do you think a dog will do if some person scoops up some strange animal and starts shrieking and waving the little thing around EXACTLY like a schutzhund trainer trying to excite a dog into attacking?

joe21
Apr. 26, 2010, 02:50 PM
When my son was young we were walking along a sidewalk next to a busy road. We came to a driveway for a restaurant as a car was pulling in. I could see the car wasn't going to stop for us and I waited - pulling my son back from getting hit by the car.

I asked my son why he didn't stop for the car. He told me that he had the "right of way" and the car had to stop for him. I explained that being "right" was not as important as being alive.

Like the present situation, it has nothing to with who is right and who is wrong. If you take your horse out on trail, it is YOUR responsibility to be prepared and accept the risks.

You can be 100% right, 100% wrong or somewhere inbetween. The problem is that none of that matters when you get seriously hurt (or worse). Loose dogs, rabid raccoons, illegal ATVs, naked joggers with ninja swords... whether right or wrong, it HAPPENS. You and your horse better be prepared to deal with it or simply accept that you may get hurt and cause injury to others.

Another reality already pointed out is that the dog owners (along with bicycles, hikers and just about every other outdoor group) outnumber and outweigh us. We also present a much higher liability factor than most of those other trail users (that "cute" boxer sniffing your horse's legs is perceived as a lesser danger than your 1000 lb horse which could easily trample you, the dog and its owner).

It sucks, but it in incumbent on the horse community to be prepared for these situations. Whether the "complaint" comes from the horse community or from people complaining about the horses on trail, it will be elimination of equestrian trail use that is the "solution."

spotted mustang
Apr. 26, 2010, 05:11 PM
well, owners are responsible for their dogs' behavior, and riders are responsible for their horse's behavior. Dogs get excited sometimes, and horses spook sometimes. So it goes. I'd say, train your horse the best you can and otherwise, wear your helmet and live with it.

sounds like the OP wasn't able to control his/her horse any more than the dog lady was able to control her boxer. So who is the boo-man? Both or neither, as far as I see it.

LoveMyCharlie
Apr. 26, 2010, 05:21 PM
I've had a similar experience, Just not out on the trail (exactly.)
A boarder at the top barn on my farm used to let her dog run loose around the farm, which a lot of people do, but this dog had some MASSIVE territory issues. So we were going by one day and all the sudden the dog starts circling, and I'm thinking, crap, crap, crap crap crap. Then he lunges at us and BAM Charlie is off in a huge panic trying to run down the straightaway (Probably a quarter mile of open space to the back of the farm.) probably the most frightening thing I've ever experienced, I didnt come off but I had to cut the ride short because my horse was in such a panic. Needless to say I spoke to the BO and that particular dog doesnt run loose anymore.
Just to clarify that my horse is not afraid of dogs big, or small. We had a full grown Dobe and Dalmation running straight at us and all Charlie wanted to do was stand still until they came to say hello. He had never seen these two dogs before.
As far as strange dogs in pacs go, Yeah I can see how a horse who is usually okay with dogs can get a bit panicked.

Hopefully the next time you go out you can forewarn the dog walker that your horse may not react very well and if they or you could remain still until one of you passes.

katarine
Apr. 26, 2010, 08:34 PM
I was very nearly attacked by a hot dog wrapper at a DRESSAGE show yesterday. Can you BELIEVE??


Who let hot dogs on the PROPERTY?????


BRING ME THEIR HEAD!

ThirdCharm
Apr. 26, 2010, 09:43 PM
Well, I agree if you are going to ride in public around people who have dogs you better be prepared for what might happen. This reminds me that I need to get a smaller gun--the 9mm is too bulky to carry on horseback. But much more effective than a puny dressage whip.... And of course it is very important of course to train your horse to stay absolutely still, quite difficult to aim from a moving platform.

Jennifer

LarkspurCO
Apr. 27, 2010, 12:49 AM
Loose dogs, rabid raccoons, illegal ATVs, naked joggers with ninja swords... whether right or wrong, it HAPPENS.

If I encountered naked joggers with ninja swords on the trail it would make my day -- maybe my whole week --even if my horse spooked and threw me off (especially if the pictures came out).

I would settle for a large hairy man jogging in a pink chiffon dress. I love weirdos.

JoZ
Apr. 27, 2010, 12:52 AM
I asked my son why he didn't stop for the car. He told me that he had the "right of way" and the car had to stop for him. I explained that being "right" was not as important as being alive.

Good post. I find it's best to influence that which you CAN readily influence... your actions, your attitudes, your animals.

Your experience with your son reminds me of an old, I think New England, epitaph from a gravestone:
"He died maintaining his right of way,
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong."

elysian*fields*farm
Apr. 27, 2010, 01:24 AM
Sorry OP, but at least the dogs WERE on leashes. You fell off so you hit someone else's pet as "as hard as I could" -- your words -- with a dressage whip you carry just for situations like this????? And what, you expect people to approve of this??

Shame on you!!!!:eek::eek::mad:

Sorry, but anyone who goes around hitting other people's dogs as hard as they can just for sniffing at their horse's legs just will not get any sympathy from me. Did the dog bark? Did it growl? Did it raise its hackles?? No? Then why did you think it deserved to be hit as hard as you could hit it with a dressage whip, no less?:mad:

Have you ever been hit with one of those little whips?? It hurts like hell, especially if you are a dog with a short slick coat of hair like a Boxer.:cry: Well, one thing for sure, you probably have made that dog afraid of horses and nuts with whips who can't keep their seat.

Yes, that's right. Your horse spooked, and you could not sit it out. Don't blame the Boxer, the lady, or your horse -- blame yourself. Maybe a little self-flagillation would be in order here--try hitting yourself a couple of times "as hard as (you) can" with your cute little dressage whip-- and who goes around carrying a dressage whip on a trail ride???

I guess really, if you think about it, you were just embarrassed to have fallen off your horse-- in front of someone. So you decided to blame the poor dumb Boxer dog, and "hit it as hard as (you) could" because you probably knew that hitting the woman with the three Boxer dogs would have gotten you arrested for battery.

You are lucky it wasn't me walking my two GSDs that you ran into because I would have demanded your name and filed animal cruelty charges against you for hitting my dog "as hard as (you) could." I always carry my cell phone, so I could have called 911, and given them your description if you had been able to remount and ride off before the law arrived.

Go back and read your post. People like you are the kind that are getting horses banned from more and more public trails. It's time to play nice and realize that ALL animals have feelings, not just your horse. EVERYONE has a right to use public trails unless there is a specific rule against a particular kind of vehicle or animal using the trail.

I doubt there is a rule that prohibits women who are walking three Boxers using retractable leashes held on with velcro from using the same trail at the same time as people riding horseback who have very bad tempers and carry dressage whips so they can hit said Boxer dogs "as hard as (they) can" if one of the dogs accidentally gets loose and sniffs said person's horse's legs.

Oh, maybe you hit your horse as hard as you can, too-- when it doesn't act just as you expect. Maybe I should be surprised that you didn't hit the Boxer, your horse AND the lady with the three Boxers with your dressage whip as hard as you could. :rolleyes:

Huntertwo
Apr. 27, 2010, 06:27 AM
Sorry OP, but at least the dogs WERE on leashes. You fell off so you hit someone else's pet as "as hard as I could" -- your words -- with a dressage whip you carry just for situations like this????? And what, you expect people to approve of this??

Shame on you!!!!:eek::eek::mad:

Sorry, but anyone who goes around hitting other people's dogs as hard as they can just for sniffing at their horse's legs just will not get any sympathy from me. Did the dog bark? Did it growl? Did it raise its hackles?? No? Then why did you think it deserved to be hit as hard as you could hit it with a dressage whip, no less?:mad:

Have you ever been hit with one of those little whips?? It hurts like hell, especially if you are a dog with a short slick coat of hair like a Boxer.:cry: Well, one thing for sure, you probably have made that dog afraid of horses and nuts with whips who can't keep their seat.

Yes, that's right. Your horse spooked, and you could not sit it out. Don't blame the Boxer, the lady, or your horse -- blame yourself. Maybe a little self-flagillation would be in order here--try hitting yourself a couple of times "as hard as (you) can" with your cute little dressage whip-- and who goes around carrying a dressage whip on a trail ride???

I guess really, if you think about it, you were just embarrassed to have fallen off your horse-- in front of someone. So you decided to blame the poor dumb Boxer dog, and "hit it as hard as (you) could" because you probably knew that hitting the woman with the three Boxer dogs would have gotten you arrested for battery.

You are lucky it wasn't me walking my two GSDs that you ran into because I would have demanded your name and filed animal cruelty charges against you for hitting my dog "as hard as (you) could." I always carry my cell phone, so I could have called 911, and given them your description if you had been able to remount and ride off before the law arrived.

:rolleyes:

HAAAA HAAA - Around here we have leash laws. I'll help you dial 911 and have your arse arrested for having an uncontained dog.

And if another loose dog comes at me again? I'll smack it as hard as I can again. Or pepper spray it..;)

mvp
Apr. 27, 2010, 08:22 AM
HAAAA HAAA - Around here we have leash laws. I'll help you dial 911 and have your arse arrested for having an uncontained dog.

And if another loose dog comes at me again? I'll smack it as hard as I can again. Or pepper spray it..;)

I gotta say, I agree with this.

elysian*fields*farm, what do you want to do about the fact that the dog's owner didn't keep her animal contained? I think it's reasonable to assume that leash laws mean the handler is obligated to have a leash that works, not a token leash. You must admit that the dog's owner was partly to blame here.

Even if I were an enraged a$$ as the OP was, I'd make a big deal of the fact that the dog's owner screwed up first by letting her animal get loose. Had she done otherwise/better/what is required the OP arguably would not have been put in the position of defending herself or her animal against another.

Entitlement on either side bugs me. There's no reason to expect that slack should be cut for us, but no one else.

ADM7040
Apr. 27, 2010, 10:07 AM
HAAAA HAAA - Around here we have leash laws. I'll help you dial 911 and have your arse arrested for having an uncontained dog.

And if another loose dog comes at me again? I'll smack it as hard as I can again. Or pepper spray it..;)

Get over yourself. You or the dog owner call the cops and no one is going to be arrested. The cop is going to tell the dog owner that next time she needs to hold on to her dog better and the cop is going to tell you that you should refrain from hitting people's dogs while having embarrassed temper tantrums.

You can keep trying to spin this but your original post does indicate that the dog was not wildly barking (actually, according to you, not one of the dogs barked) and he was not attacking you or your horse. Your horse was standing still and the dog was sniffing his back legs. Yes, the dog owner was negligent in allowing her dog to pull his leash off the velcro attached to her arm. She was careless in that respect, but she was polite and attempting to make a bad situation better. You, on the other hand, choose to make a bad situation worse. It is your fault that you could not control your horse and fell off said horse. You come across in your post as being angry and embarrassed about this and then you had a temper tantrum and hit the dog with your dressage whip "as hard as (you) could". Now you want to pretend that you were defending your horse and that is why you did it, bull$hit, you were being petty and took it out on the dog. If you had told us that you tried to shoo the dog away and it growled, then it would be understandable that you hit the dog, but that's not the case. You hit the dog because you were having a temper tantrum and now you are stomping your petulant foot again because there are people calling you on your poor behavior and not giving you the sympathy that you feel you deserve.

The dog owner's behavior is an example of someone correctly trying to diffuse a bad situation with an irrationally angry person (that's you). Next time you may encounter someone with a temper as bad as yours who believes that the answer to you hitting their dog is to hit you back. That will not be a pleasant encounter.

mp
Apr. 27, 2010, 11:43 AM
HAAAA HAAA - Around here we have leash laws. I'll help you dial 911 and have your arse arrested for having an uncontained dog.

And if another loose dog comes at me again? I'll smack it as hard as I can again. Or pepper spray it..;)

So you are still reading this thread ... and still displaying your delightful attitude.

wendy
Apr. 27, 2010, 11:50 AM
HAAAA HAAA - Around here we have leash laws. I'll help you dial 911 and have your arse arrested for having an uncontained dog.

And if another loose dog comes at me again? I'll smack it as hard as I can again. Or pepper spray it.

I suspect the cops will consider attacking and injuring a non-violent, non-attacking dog to be more of a crime than someone having a leash failure. I know they certainly would NEVER arrest someone for just having a leash failure, probably wouldn't even fine them, but animal abuse is actually a felony in some places.


There's a big difference between defending yourself and your animal against an attacking dog and you attacking a dog who wasn't doing anything violent.

Do you really not understand this difference?

katarine
Apr. 27, 2010, 11:53 AM
The subtle difference between:

The dog came toward me.


and


The dog came at me.



Appears to be utterly lost on the OP.

wendy
Apr. 27, 2010, 12:15 PM
oh, and you also might want to check on those leash laws. An amazing number of people seem to think they are much more widespread than they actually are. CT doesn't have a state-wide leash law, and even if the local township had such a law, if you happened to be on some kind of private airport land they wouldn't apply.
Many many places have laws against "Dogs at large" but those apply to loose, roaming dogs. If the owner is standing right there the dog is "not at large".
So to sum up: the dog owner was idiotic, but the OP was the only one breaking the law by violently and without cause attacking an innocent animal.

Huntertwo
Apr. 27, 2010, 12:32 PM
So you are still reading this thread ... and still displaying your delightful attitude.

lol... Yes, when I have time, I try to check in.
Apparently, TLB Gang has more time than I do.. ;)

Some how I DO get the impression that the Poor dog, bad mean OP, people are exactly the ones who let their little Muffin and Puffy run amok and screw everyone else....right?

As long as Puffy is enjoying herself, heck with the hiker she jumps all over, heck with the bicyclist she knocks off the bike, heck with the other boarders she is harassing. They don't care, because after all, Puffy is enjoying herself and screw the other people. Got it now.

Huntertwo
Apr. 27, 2010, 12:41 PM
oh, and you also might want to check on those leash laws. An amazing number of people seem to think they are much more widespread than they actually are. CT doesn't have a state-wide leash law, and even if the local township had such a law, if you happened to be on some kind of private airport land they wouldn't apply.
Many many places have laws against "Dogs at large" but those apply to loose, roaming dogs. If the owner is standing right there the dog is "not at large".
So to sum up: the dog owner was idiotic, but the OP was the only one breaking the law by violently and without cause attacking an innocent animal.

Here you go Wendy - Right from the State of CT Leash law site. ;)

A dog's owner or keeper is liable for any damage caused by his dog to a person's body or property, unless the damage was sustained while the person was committing a trespass or other tort, or teasing, abusing, or tormenting the dog.


Additionally, the Environmental Protection Department requires that owners keep their dogs leashed in state parks.

ADM7040
Apr. 27, 2010, 12:56 PM
As long as Puffy is enjoying herself, heck with the hiker she jumps all over, heck with the bicyclist she knocks off the bike, heck with the other boarders she is harassing. They don't care, because after all, Puffy is enjoying herself and screw the other people. Got it now.

OK, I got it now. You hit the dog because you had seen the same dog jumping all over other hikers and bikers and the same dog had been to your barn and harrassed the boarders as well.

GoForAGallop
Apr. 27, 2010, 01:29 PM
lol... Yes, when I have time, I try to check in.
Apparently, TLB Gang has more time than I do.. ;)

Some how I DO get the impression that the Poor dog, bad mean OP, people are exactly the ones who let their little Muffin and Puffy run amok and screw everyone else....right?
.

Nope, I have a hound who disappears for hours if she goes off leash. I do take her for walks though and roll my eyes at the occasional ninny on horse back who screams at me to hide the dog from their precious pony...

Auventera Two
Apr. 27, 2010, 03:09 PM
yeah, what's the big deal? 99.9% of dogs aren't going to just run up to you and tear you limb from limb, especially if you are calm and relaxed when they arrive. Animals are animals, and even the best behaved ones occasionally don't behave, and leashes/collars do fail at times.

I've seen little dog owners TRIGGER attacks by loose big dogs entirely due to their freaking out at the calm, curious dog's approach. What do you think a dog will do if some person scoops up some strange animal and starts shrieking and waving the little thing around EXACTLY like a schutzhund trainer trying to excite a dog into attacking?


It's funny how these arguments go. If you posted that on one of the anti-pit bull threads, you'd start a riot. If a Pit is involved, the dog is ALWAYS at fault - even if he's tied up in his own back yard behind a 9 foot barbed wire fence, and someone opens the gate, walks in, and taunts him. The Pit will always be at fault and criminalized for acting aggressively.

If this dog were a loose Pit Bull that broke loose from the owner, dragging the flexi leash and ran up to the horse's hindquarters, everybody would be telling Huntertwo to beat the dog harder and do what she had to do to protect herself. ;)

ANY dog can do harm without provocation or much warning - Pit Bull or Chihuahua, makes no difference. If a dog tears it's leash off its owner's arm and charges me and my horse, he'll be darned lucky if all that happens is a whack with the crop. Maybe that whack taught him he ought not charge up to a horse's hind legs. That seems FAR kinder than what a horse could do which is kick his skull in and send him to never never land.

Facts are - large breed, powerful dog tears leash away from owner and runs toward the horse and rider causing her to be thrown, then she protects herself from preceived threat by whacking dog with a crop. It seems to me she was WELL within her rights to protect herself from threat - be it actual, or preceived. In the heat of the moment, when adrenaline is flowing, you can't always sit there for 45 seconds analyzing the dog's demeanor, apparent temperament, and body language and make a rational decision if you/horse are in danger or not. You react instantly to protect yourself and your horse. In hindsight, if you realize the dog probably wasn't going to attack and bite, then I guess you apologize to the dog's owner and what's done is done. But I'd rather whack the dog first and hopefully protect the horse from what could be serious damage.

And come on people - a whack with a dressage whip isn't going to cause any long term damage to the dog. It won't break bones or skin. The worst her crop whack is going to do will leave a little sore spot for a few days. Wooo. It was a split second decision that any of us could have also made in the heat of the moment. Especially after you've been tossed off the horse and now you're on the ground with a 70 or 80 pound dog that may or may not turn aggressive.

I'm a dog owner and lover and I see nothing wrong with Huntertwo protecting herself in this situation. And if at any time, one of my 3 dogs tore the leash away from me and charged at someone else, I would FULLY expect them to defend themselves any way they saw fit. If that means my dog was injured in the process, oh well. My fault for not containing my animal in a public situation.

Some of the people here that are defending the dog owner are the same people who have posted on farrier threads that they fully allow and encourage a farrier to haul off and whack their horse for doing what the farrier believe is out of line. So you allow a farrier to hit your horse with a rasp or kick him in the belly, but you don't believe it's fair to whack a strange dog with a dressage whip when he charges up to your horse's hind end. So it's ok for someone to hit your horse as discipline for doing something wrong, but don't you dare hit a dog that's charging at your horse and might do damage. LMAO. Too funny.

katarine
Apr. 27, 2010, 03:35 PM
oh BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Again a dog sniffing a horse's hind leg is NOT a dog attacking a horse.

Do you all sniff flowers in the park or bite their tiny innocent blooms off, folks???


I am so glad I can't even manage to see the world through your eyes. Just DELIGHTED lol

mp
Apr. 27, 2010, 04:18 PM
It's funny how these arguments go. If you posted that on one of the anti-pit bull threads, you'd start a riot. If a Pit is involved, the dog is ALWAYS at fault - even if he's tied up in his own back yard behind a 9 foot barbed wire fence, and someone opens the gate, walks in, and taunts him. The Pit will always be at fault and criminalized for acting aggressively.

If this dog were a loose Pit Bull that broke loose from the owner, dragging the flexi leash and ran up to the horse's hindquarters, everybody would be telling Huntertwo to beat the dog harder and do what she had to do to protect herself. ;)

And what do pit bulls have to do with this discussion? Let me answer that for you: Nothing.




ANY dog can do harm without provocation or much warning - Pit Bull or Chihuahua, makes no difference. If a dog tears it's leash off its owner's arm and charges me and my horse, he'll be darned lucky if all that happens is a whack with the crop. Maybe that whack taught him he ought not charge up to a horse's hind legs. That seems FAR kinder than what a horse could do which is kick his skull in and send him to never never land.

Facts are - large breed, powerful dog tears leash away from owner and runs toward the horse and rider causing her to be thrown, then she protects herself from preceived threat by whacking dog with a crop. It seems to me she was WELL within her rights to protect herself from threat - be it actual, or preceived. In the heat of the moment, when adrenaline is flowing, you can't always sit there for 45 seconds analyzing the dog's demeanor, apparent temperament, and body language and make a rational decision if you/horse are in danger or not. You react instantly to protect yourself and your horse. In hindsight, if you realize the dog probably wasn't going to attack and bite, then I guess you apologize to the dog's owner and what's done is done. But I'd rather whack the dog first and hopefully protect the horse from what could be serious damage.

And come on people - a whack with a dressage whip isn't going to cause any long term damage to the dog. It won't break bones or skin. The worst her crop whack is going to do will leave a little sore spot for a few days. Wooo. It was a split second decision that any of us could have also made in the heat of the moment. Especially after you've been tossed off the horse and now you're on the ground with a 70 or 80 pound dog that may or may not turn aggressive.

I'm a dog owner and lover and I see nothing wrong with Huntertwo protecting herself in this situation. And if at any time, one of my 3 dogs tore the leash away from me and charged at someone else, I would FULLY expect them to defend themselves any way they saw fit. If that means my dog was injured in the process, oh well. My fault for not containing my animal in a public situation.

Some of the people here that are defending the dog owner are the same people who have posted on farrier threads that they fully allow and encourage a farrier to haul off and whack their horse for doing what the farrier believe is out of line. So you allow a farrier to hit your horse with a rasp or kick him in the belly, but you don't believe it's fair to whack a strange dog with a dressage whip when he charges up to your horse's hind end. So it's ok for someone to hit your horse as discipline for doing something wrong, but don't you dare hit a dog that's charging at your horse and might do damage. LMAO. Too funny.

I agree that any dog can do harm. And I really don't have much of a problem with her hitting the dog with her whip, if it made her feel better (but apparently it didn't because she's still hanging around bitching and making juvenile remarks about the people who don't agree with her).

And I agree that riders should do what they can to protect themselves from aggressive dogs. Except, in this instance, the dog wasn't aggressive -- it ran toward her and she fell off the horse. And the dog didn't attack, it sniffed her horse's leg. Oh, the horrors.

What I don't agree with is this attitude that the world must stop and no one can make a mistake or quick move because I. am. on. my. horse. No, it does not. You need to learn to deal with the world from horseback.

I used to be a timid rider, and I'm very conscious of others who are less than comfortable in the saddle. I try not to make them nervous, whether I'm on or off my horse. But at some point you just have to say learn to deal with your surroundings.
Or get off.

And this is one of those cases.

Always Tardy
Apr. 27, 2010, 04:35 PM
Might want to check your facts as it is Dogs at large that they are referring to:
Connecticut Leash Law
Under Connecticut law, it is unlawful to permit a dog to run at large. The only exception is for hunting dogs. Under this statute, if an owner or keeper permits a dog to run at large when the owner or keeper knows, or should have known, of the dog’s vicious propensities, and the dog bites someone, the owner or keeper is not only subject to civil liability, but can also be fined up to $1,000 and be imprisoned for six months. The only defense is when the victim teased, tormented, or abused the dog.22-364. Dogs roaming at large. Intentional or reckless subsequent violation

Another website:

(a) No owner or keeper of any dog shall allow such dog to roam at large upon the land of another and not under control of the owner or keeper or the agent of the owner or keeper, nor allow such dog to roam at large on any portion of any public highway and not attended or under control of such owner or keeper or his agent, provided nothing in this subsection shall be construed to limit or prohibit the use of hunting dogs during the open hunting or training season. The unauthorized presence of any dog on the land of any person other than the owner or keeper of such dog or on any portion of a public highway when such dog is not attended by or under the control of such owner or keeper, shall be prima facie evidence of a violation of the provisions of this subsection. Violation of any provision of this subsection shall be an infraction.

(b) Any owner or keeper of any dog who, knowing of the vicious propensities of such dog and having violated the provisions of subsection (a) of this section within the preceding year, intentionally or recklessly violates the provisions of subsection (a) of this section shall be fined not more than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than six months, or both, if such dog, while roaming at large, causes physical injury to another person and such other person was not teasing, tormenting or abusing such dog.

This is a summary of the statutes by a Law Firm Website:

The general statutes do not mandate that dogs be on leashes at all times, but they specify that an owner must always keep his dog under control and off of private property (unless authorized). A copy of the statute is attached, or see: CGS ยง 22-364.

Local governments may create leash ordinances (Stafford does not require leashes).
Although the State park one is correct:CONNECTICUT

The Environmental Protection Department does require that owners keep their dogs leashed in state parks. A copy of the regulation is attached, or see: CT State Parks and Forests - Pets.

Always Tardy
Apr. 27, 2010, 04:57 PM
I've been following this thread and I do see both sides. I have dogs and friends would encourage me to off leash them but I would not because both were very large, curious, and fairly independent. And I admit, not as well trained as I would have liked. So they had leashes. But to be fair, hitting the dog may have escalated the situation. Apparently, the proper out come was achieved and dog moved away from horse and rider. But it easily could have gone the other way, dog jumps into horse from the unexpected pain and horse kicks or bolts, or dog could have snapped in the direction of pain, possibly biting you or the horse.
The owner made a huge error with the velco, but possibly has done that lots of times with no bad out come. It was an accident and was hopefully a learning experience for both. I've had barn cat jump in front of my horse in the arena, causing a spook, so it can happen anywhere. I am glad you weren't seriously hurt and may your next trail ride be less eventful!
Helen

pmysliwski
Apr. 27, 2010, 06:22 PM
I truly believe that the dog getting loose from the velcro was an accident and accidents do happen.

The dog owner was probably mortified that the OP fell off and would have begun to apologized profusely up until the point the OP proceeded to beat the dog "as hard as she could" with her whip in anger. The dog owner's thoughts then most likely turned from "Gee I hope she's not hurt" to "Gee what a crass b*tch."

LarkspurCO
Apr. 27, 2010, 11:35 PM
I think Huntertwo did the dog a favor by helping to teach it that sniffing around a horse's hind end = pain. I realize the owner didn't mean to let the dog go, but it happened and it became a hazard.

If your dog got loose and annoyed a horse, would you rather it be hit with a crop or kicked by the horse? Crops generally don't result in broken ribs or internal injuries. (I wouldn't use pepper spray unless a dog were attacking.)

As I stated earlier, my mare will kick the crap out of a dog sniffing around her tail. She taught my neighbor's dog a valuable lesson recently by kicking him across the road. The dog hasn't run up her ass since. The neighbor was appreciative, and he and I were both glad the dog wasn't injured.

In my experience, the majority of dog owners don't bother to train their dogs and expect other people to put up with their dogs' unruly behavior.

If you allow your dogs to run loose and run up behind a horse, you are an irresponsible dog owner. Your dog does not deserve to be kicked by my horse. Your dog deserves to be TRAINED.

Kenike
Apr. 28, 2010, 02:42 AM
Even the best trained dog can have a moment of stupid, but that never means it's okay for anyone, ESPECIALLY a stranger, to smack the hell out of it with a whip! Even with my dog in the wrong, that would've garnered something fierce from me. You're lucky this dog owner was so restrained...and embarrassed!

I feel for the OP, but accidents on the trail do happen. I hate retractable leashes, but a lot of dog owners love them. Was the velcro a stupid idea? Maybe. Maybe not. A lot of people velcro their dog to themselves while hiking. There's a reason for it. If the owner runs into trouble, the dog can easily be released. If the dog falls, the owner doesn't go with them. If another animal attacks, you're not still attached to the dog. You get the picture.

And it also has to be asked how you know this was something the owner thought would happen. A lot of dogs bark at horses on the trails without making any movement to give chase. This may have been an absolute first that the owner never saw coming.

Sometimes crap happens. I'm glad you're okay, I'm glad your horse is okay, and I'm glad it all seems to have worked out. Maybe you can give the trail another try and have better results...it sounds like a trail that would a blast to ride, if only for the aircraft! :)

wendy
Apr. 28, 2010, 09:05 AM
I'd like to comment further about the "dogs at large" laws. SO many people confuse "Dogs at large" laws with leash laws. Laws about "dogs at large" are everywhere, frequently state-wide. They are NOT leash laws. If you own a 100 acre farm, and own a dog, and make no provision to keep the dog on your property (no fence, no tether, no invisible fence, nothing) you are in violation of the "dogs at large" law. The law generally won't come around and do anything unless your illegal dog makes a habit of wandering off your property and bothering other people/animals, but you are still being blatantly illegal.
Most states have laws against "dogs at large", but most also only require for dog out in public is that the dog be under the owner's reasonable control. So you at home with your dog wandering around unconfined on your farm are in violation of dog law, but the person you meet on a trail ride with an unleashed dog, the dog in sight of the owner, and the dog more or less trained to obey the owner, is very likely NOT in violation of any law. Many local areas such as townships etc. DO pass leash laws, things like the dog must be on a 6-foot lead or whatever when out in public. But these vary wildly from local area to local area, and ONLY apply to public lands. If you, say, habitually ride your horse across a wilderness preserve that is privately owned by some foundation there's an almost zero chance that any "leash laws" apply to that area.
So I strongly recommend before you get up on your "high horse" about dog owners that you actually check the laws in your area.
And sorry, but beating a dog with a whip is NEVER acceptable unless the dog is actually attacking you or your horse. A dog sniffing at a horse's leg is not an attack by any definition.

Schune
Apr. 28, 2010, 12:28 PM
I'm curious as to where people are getting the idea that the OP smacked the dog because she was just angry that she fell off. I've reread her post and see nothing alluding to that.

If I see a strange dog sniffing my horse's back legs, my goal is to get it away for the dog's safety and for my horse's safety.

ADM7040
Apr. 28, 2010, 01:05 PM
I'm curious as to where people are getting the idea that the OP smacked the dog because she was just angry that she fell off. I've reread her post and see nothing alluding to that.

If I see a strange dog sniffing my horse's back legs, my goal is to get it away for the dog's safety and for my horse's safety.

Yes, and I bet it is likely that you would start with a simple "shoo" or a "git" before you escalated all the way up to using your dressage whip to hit the dog "as hard as (you) could".

Huntertwo
Apr. 28, 2010, 01:11 PM
I'm curious as to where people are getting the idea that the OP smacked the dog because she was just angry that she fell off. I've reread her post and see nothing alluding to that.

If I see a strange dog sniffing my horse's back legs, my goal is to get it away for the dog's safety and for my horse's safety.

Thanks Schune,

Unfortunately because this is COTH and by the second page, people join in with the mob mentality and no longer read the original post.

Read post 124 - It is implied that I beat this dog repeatedly. I hit it once.

Did anyone once think if I didn't get this dog away from my pony's hind legs that the dog could have ran around my pony and entangled her legs with a fully extended cord from the retractable leash?

Of course not, this is COTH. People just type what they assume with no regard for the actual truth of the post. - Without asking for more facts.

Heck, I've been called an ass and juvenile when I said, yes, if it were to happened again, I would do the same.

I posted actual quotes from the CT leash law, yet of course, they pull up laws that were unrelated to my incident.

I really don't care what people think of my split second decision making...

After all, these are the same people fighting over an Ostrich/Rhea thread...;) Hard to take them seriously.

GallopingGrape
Apr. 28, 2010, 01:13 PM
Ditto Shune...

Schune
Apr. 28, 2010, 01:14 PM
Yes, and I bet it is likely that you would start with a simple "shoo" or a "git" before you escalated all the way up to using your dressage whip to hit the dog "as hard as (you) could".

Actually, if I had a crop or whip in my hand, I'd probably be more likely to growl and use said instrument in conjunction. And yes, that means swinging, blocking, or hitting.

GoForAGallop
Apr. 28, 2010, 01:46 PM
After all, these are the same people fighting over an Ostrich/Rhea thread...;) Hard to take them seriously.

Have no idea what you're talking about, actually.

Personally, I find it hard to take a grown woman seriously who throws such a temper-tantrum over a DOG on a trail. Not a rabid raccoon/cow with baby/hot air balloon/people running around in brightly colored spandex fighting with pool noodles/any of the other billions of things that could occur on trails. A DOG. Which certainly aren't rare.

JLD
Apr. 28, 2010, 02:03 PM
people running around in brightly colored spandex fighting with pool noodles.:lol:

GoForAGallop
Apr. 28, 2010, 02:06 PM
:lol:

Well hey, that's something that *I* would spook at, so I wouldn't blame my horse either!

mp
Apr. 28, 2010, 02:17 PM
I'm curious as to where people are getting the idea that the OP smacked the dog because she was just angry that she fell off. I've reread her post and see nothing alluding to that.

Well ... here's my reasoning:

The post sounds like it was written by a peevish 12 y.o.
She refused the dog owner's apology, thus reinforcing that she might have done it in a fit of pique
And she's still pissed, because she makes silly assumptions about people who disagree with her and threatens to call the poleeece on people's "arses" who think she overreacted.

Honestly, I don't give a crap if she hit the dog or why. Yes, dog owner should keep control of dog. But why be such a turd to someone who makes a mistake and says "hey, I'm sorry"?

Especially if you're so foolish that you don't realize a one-eyed horse -- even a trail broke one -- is likely to turn (and often very quickly) to look at something. So you should be somewhat prepared for encounters on the trail.

THAT person has no business talking about the dumb mistakes other people make.

JLD
Apr. 28, 2010, 02:25 PM
Got to say that the OP does make it sound as though she hit the dog because she was ticked off. Not to protect it from being kicked by her horse, not to teach it that horses can be dangerous, etc. Because she was ticked.
Now I'm not saying I would be the epitome of grace in this situation either but to be nasty to the woman after the OP had already hit her dog and not been ripped a new one by the owner and after her apology? That's just a fit of pique..

ThirdCharm
Apr. 28, 2010, 03:10 PM
Just out of curiosity, what IS considered an appropriate response to a large, strange, out-of-control dog that runs up to you and starts sniffing around your horse's legs? Are you supposed to yell at it (when it is ignoring its OWNER)? Are you supposed to try to capture it, risking being mauled yourself?? At what point are you allowed to take more aggressive action? Do you have to wait until it actually sinks its teeth into your horse, inflicting a life or career-ending injury?

Jennifer

JLD
Apr. 28, 2010, 03:22 PM
Personally I would judge the dog's body language. I'm not saying you should ignore a dog who is snarling and nipping and generally scaring the pants off you. But sniffing? No, I don't think that warrants a whack. Would you whack a dog that came up to you and sniffed at you?

I wasn't there so I can't say what the dog's demeanor was but if the OP's intent was to make sure the leash didn't get caught up in her horses legs, it seems to me that it would have made more sense to grab said leash and contain both it and the dog.

And for the record, I had no idea boxers were ever considered "large breed" dogs. Maybe I've only ever met the runts!

GoForAGallop
Apr. 28, 2010, 03:24 PM
Just out of curiosity, what IS considered an appropriate response to a large, strange, out-of-control dog that runs up to you and starts sniffing around your horse's legs? Are you supposed to yell at it (when it is ignoring its OWNER)? Are you supposed to try to capture it, risking being mauled yourself?? At what point are you allowed to take more aggressive action? Do you have to wait until it actually sinks its teeth into your horse, inflicting a life or career-ending injury?

Jennifer


"Hey, aren't you a cutie!! Lemme snag your leash so that I can give you back to mom!!" This is all assuming that I couldn't stay on my spooking horse (:lol:) and fell off. If I were still on my horse I'd still be talking to the dog, and may or may not hop down and catch said doggie depending on specifics.

I'd take aggressive action if the dog was actually growling/had his hackles up/was showing any sort of aggression at all. Sniffing my horse is not aggression, it's what dogs do.

wendy
Apr. 28, 2010, 03:25 PM
yeah well, you know? the OP and her attitude would fit right in with the irritating riders on our local trails, and despite being a horse-rider myself if it ever comes up for a vote I'm voting to kick the horses off the trails. Which will probably be eagerly copied by every single other user of the trail, all of whom manage somehow to calmly pass each other without drama, insults, screaming, or whippings.

mp
Apr. 28, 2010, 03:41 PM
Just out of curiosity, what IS considered an appropriate response to a large, strange, out-of-control dog that runs up to you and starts sniffing around your horse's legs? Are you supposed to yell at it (when it is ignoring its OWNER)?

I'll just assume I stay mounted, OK? :lol:

To a friendly, but rambunctious one -- Say "hey, doggie, what's up?" and make sure my horse doesn't step on it.

To one that looks like a herd dog about to let his herding instincts take over -- Point my whip at him and say "don't you dare."

To one that's really out of control, tell dog owner "your dog is about to die" because my horses know when a dog isn't going to play nice and they are handy with their feet.

AlfalfaGirl
Apr. 29, 2010, 12:03 AM
I have read most of the posts. :) Everyone has an opinion about what they would or would not do in the situation as either the OP or the lady with the run away dog.

The dog may not have meant any harm and been a big sweetie - but the OP could have ended up dead from being thrown or seriously injured. Whether she could ride out a rough spot or not is really irrelevant. The lady should have had good control of her large dogs - not all people or horses are "doggie" friendly. Even a friendly dog can inflict SERIOUS injury as I know from personal experience. My friend's large (really huge dalmatian that was the size of a Great Dane) jumped up to play with my 5 yr old son and his toe nail hung in Devin's ear and ripped it to shreds and caused a trip to the ER to sew it up. My BFF's niece was jumped on by a boxer/pit mix that was about 6 months old and wanted to play. His toe nail hung in her cheek and ripped it open and took a plastic surgeon many hours and 100 fine stitches to put her cheek back together. Neither one of these dogs meant to hurt either child but both of them ended up in a lot of pain, stitches, cost a poop load of money and in the case of Emily, she ended up with a scar for life on her face. Who needs that?

My very good friend has a Great Dane that is a darling and he just LOVES me and I think he is terrific. But I am careful when I have my horses around him because he does want to herd them at times and has been know to nip horses...with people he is a big sweetie who wants to sit on your lap! My horse is semi ok with dogs most of the time but I have seen him try to kick the living daylights out of a dog that ran through the hot walker. If Red had connected with Maxwell he would have been killed him and Max wasn't trying to do anything to Red. On the trail he seems ok but if one ran up behind him even playing I am not so sure he wouldn't let him have it and my horse is a laid back sweetheart 99.9% of the time.

Everyone needs to be considerate of others on the trails and that includes joggers, photographers, equestrians, people with the fanoodlie thingies. Try not to scare the horses, hit the dogs, p!$$ off other people. Remember the old golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. No one set of sport enthusiasts have any more rights to the trails than others so everybody play nice in the old sandbox. JMHO :)

wendy
Apr. 29, 2010, 11:24 AM
not all people or horses are "doggie" friendly.
if you take your horse out on public trails I can say for certainty that you will encounter dogs, and stupid dog owners, and some of these dogs will bark at your horse, and some will run up behind your horse and sniff at its legs. If your horse spooks at dogs doing these things I strongly suggest you stay home.
It's a nasty double standard most horse riders use: they expect dog owners to have full control over their beasts, and get out of their way, and take 100% responsibility for anything that goes wrong; yet they do not expect to have control over their beasts, make no effort to get out of the way, and always blame "them" for whatever goes wrong.
When dealing with other people's animals the only rule that works is "I can prepare and control MY animal".

AlfalfaGirl
Apr. 29, 2010, 11:52 AM
I agree Wendy. Everyone should be prepared. I have not had a bad experience on trails with dogs/horses/people (knock on wood) and hope that I never do. My horse is an off the track QH and is so laid back and calm 99.9% of the time thank God!

I am uber careful because I did come off a horse a year and a half ago (not on the trails) and got seriously hurt and I don't want to repeat the experience. I am afraid that if I came off again I might not ride again! :no:

Hannahsmom
Apr. 29, 2010, 12:04 PM
When dealing with other people's animals the only rule that works is "I can prepare and control MY animal".

Agreed. Add to that, it is my responsibility to stay on my horse no matter how hard it spooks or runs. And to treat others (this dog owner in this instance) as I would want to be treated if my horse had spun and dumped me earlier on the trail and taken off and scared this lady and dog.

I'll admit I read this thread in the first place as I do walk my dogs on the trails and wanted to make sure that I wasn't doing something that would cause a problem (I ride the trails also, but sans dogs). Other than the lady was using a bad leash choice, it sounds like just an unfortunate incident. I feel like rather than hitting the dog, which was just being a dog, staying calm even though I had landed on the ground and letting her know why those kinds of leashes are a bad idea whether it got detached or not would have been more helpful. And letting her know how badly I could have been hurt. So many people have no idea why flexis are such a bad idea other than in open fields by yourself.

mustangtrailrider
Apr. 29, 2010, 12:15 PM
I am afraid that if I came off again I might not ride again! :no:

This comment struck me as really odd! No offense intended. If you are that afraid that you might come off and can't ride, Why do you ride!?!

Riding is a huge risk. We take that risk every time we put our foot in the stirrup. Yes, we prepare, practice, and ride the right horse/trail to reduce this risk, but it is still a huge risk.

I am afraid to come off, but not so much that I am worried that I will never ride again!

Back to topic, No horse is 100%. No dog is 100%. No person is 100%. We make mistakes. Our animals act according to their nature 100% but they are not always under our control!

I treat my horses the way I expect to treat all horses. I treat my dogs the same way. Whether they are my dog or not, if one were sniffing, the hind end of my mare as indicated by OP, I would do what is necessary to get dog to remove itself from hindend. A shoo, a Git, or a swat with a whip is much better than a kick by my less than upclose and personal not dog friendly mare. She is fine with them on trail. If they get too close to her, she will charge, strike and kick. That is her nature as is swatting one if necessary is mine.

I try to use my best judgement at all times, but I am human. I am going to make mistakes. It is easy to sit here and tell someone what they should or shouldn't do from behind this computer screen.

Given the situation I can't and won't fault her for swatting the dog. If it had been my mare the dog was behind, my mare would have take care of dog for me!


Which is better, Oops, I am sorry that I hit your dog with my whip. or, Oops, I am sorry that Fido is dead because my mare kicked your dog!?!

GoForAGallop
Apr. 29, 2010, 01:29 PM
T
Given the situation I can't and won't fault her for swatting the dog. If it had been my mare the dog was behind, my mare would have take care of dog for me!


Which is better, Oops, I am sorry that I hit your dog with my whip. or, Oops, I am sorry that Fido is dead because my mare kicked your dog!?!

I think the TRUE issue, for me at least, is not that the OP disciplined the dog (which was too harshly, in my opinion) but that the OP did not THEN say "Ooops, sorry, just didn't want Fido to get hurt!" as you suggested.

Instead she smacked the dog, glared at and was very rude to the owner, and then came on here to post her huffy little post.

AlfalfaGirl
Apr. 29, 2010, 01:51 PM
Mustang,

LOL Just a fear of mine I guess. I am working to address my own fears. I grew up with horses and had them until I was 24. I used to be a pretty fearless rider and very confident of my skills. I hadn't really rode in 26 years (unless you count a trail ride on vacation following other vacationers!) and I wanted a horse again as my kids were finally grown. I went to try a horse 5 hours from home supposedly trained, had done western pleasure. I spoke even to the vet tech where he treated and nothing but good reports. Spirited yes, crazy didn't enter until I walked him down the arena and turned. There was a tree in the middle (which I thought was crazy) and he tried to scrape me off and then took off bucking and running bit clenched in his teeth. I came off at the end of the arena. Long and short, my leg was badly injured and the drs were shocked it wasn't shattered in 4 places. I ended up with a severe skin infection, huge hematoma on the side with nerve damage. My leg is still numb on that side, still tender in places and it is still discolored like the bruise is still there even though it has been a year and a half. UGH. I bought a horse 2 months after that though. He is gentle but needs hours and miles. I am 51 years old and not too excited about coming off of my 15.3 hh gelding. Until I do get my own fears under control I don't want to come off!!

I am going to start taking dressage lessons next week to help me master my fear. I do ride with people who are very experienced and we have encountered all kinds of stuff. My horses is an off the track and he gets a little excited at the mules and music at trail rides - I think he thinks its the starting gate. I do know that his breeder said he didn't like dogs when he was sold to the lady I bought him from. Red seems ok with them as long as he isn't on the hot walker!!

saddleup
Apr. 29, 2010, 02:09 PM
What would be the result, legally, if your horse did kick and kill a dog who'd broken loose from its owner and was sniffing the back legs of your horse? Could you be held liable in some way?

AlfalfaGirl
Apr. 29, 2010, 02:43 PM
I'm not a lawyer but I would imagine it would be tough nookie. Especially if there is a leash law. Animals running loose is never a good thing and you are generally liable for damages that your animal causes. I know that if your livestock is out and someone hits and kills it you are liable for their damages to themselves and vehicle.

We never let our GSD run around loose but she would sometimes get out - she was pretty darn smart and could open a chain link gate! She was NEVER a bother to people but Betsy had no such qualms in attacking other dogs that were near her property. She was serious about protecting her territory! We had to put locks on the gates to keep her in when she was younger.

Aven
Apr. 29, 2010, 02:49 PM
I have dogs, and horses.

I breed dogs and horses.

I train dogs and horses (and compete and do film work with both).

I frequent dog and horse forums.

I can see both sides. BUT I side more with the OP.

Why hold her to a higher standard? Her horse isn't allowed to bat an eye at a charging predator, but we don't expect the dog owner to have a good recall? Its easier to have a good recall than a horse that never spooks at anything ever.

My horses are used to dogs. The JRTs run underfoot all the time. The whippets wiz around like crazy things, and the BC barks and stares at them. My horses have hunted and are never fazed by the hounds. But I still am not sure at what they would do with a dog with a flexi charging at them.

I too would have hit the dog. Dogs don't have hands, when they find something interesting they use their mouths on it. I have fostered enough dogs from rescues to see innocent sniffing turn into a quick bite and jump back (or even a lick). I doubt my horse's would kick, however I would much rather sting the dog (no damage) vs wait to see if my horse is sufficiently weirded out to nail the dog, and potentially killing someones dog.

We trainers/competitors in the dog world hate flexis as much as the people in the horse world. They are known to be dangerous and unreliable. And they tend to teach dogs bad habits (constant leash pressure for one). They are not a good plan for walking a less than impeccably trained dog.

Oh and a personal story. I was chilling with my horse when I was much younger at the boarding stable when a stray large dog showed up. Was very friendly and didn't seem to be interested in the horses. So he hung out whilst I rode in the arena. My horse didn't care as the stable had a dog. We were walking out at the end on a loose rein and the dog came over and walked beside us. Out of no where this dog leapt up and grabbed her nose, she then reared up and tried to strike his head off. Luckily other than some punctures no one was hurt. He was fine again after that. Point being that dogs and horses are not robots they will at times react to things in ways you can't predict.

Auventera Two
Apr. 29, 2010, 04:16 PM
"Hey, aren't you a cutie!! Lemme snag your leash so that I can give you back to mom!!" This is all assuming that I couldn't stay on my spooking horse (:lol:) and fell off. If I were still on my horse I'd still be talking to the dog, and may or may not hop down and catch said doggie depending on specifics.

I'd take aggressive action if the dog was actually growling/had his hackles up/was showing any sort of aggression at all. Sniffing my horse is not aggression, it's what dogs do.

Wow. You know SO LITTLE about dogs. :no:

Since you're such a canine expert, I trust you have studied Patricia McConnell's books and materials to the n'th degree. Maybe you can recite back to us some of the situations SHE has been in (a professional dog trainer and animal behaviorist) where dogs attacked her aggressively with the only warning sign being a tiny twitch of the lip or glint in the eye.

You surely know that she says the most dangerous dogs aren't those with hackles up and growling. Those are generally the posers. The really really dangerous dogs are the ones that are stoic and resolved and quiet.

What about the 2 Presa Canarios that attacked and killed a woman in their apartment building with no warning. Just ripped the leashes away from the owner and jumped her as if she were a 6 pound rabbit. When they were done with her, only the soles of her feet were recognizable.

I'll be darned if I'm going to stand by and say "good doggie lets go back and find your mommie" to a large, powerful breed dog that has just torn the leash away from it's owner and charged at my horse. And I'm a dog person! Have been my whole life. I love dogs and study them as much as I do horses. I read dog forums. I have a library of dog training and care manuals.

But the fact is - dogs are predators. And you just DON'T KNOW that dog's intentions. You don't know if he is capable of attacking without putting on an agressive display first.

I am ashamed to admit this but when we first got our Weimaraner (a really severe abuse case), she nipped a guy on the back of the thigh with absolutely NO warning. He was a friend of my hubby's and had been at our house all day. The dog had been well acquainted with him. We were sitting on the couch watching a movie and eating pizza, the dog was lying on the floor in front of hubby's friend. The guy stood up off the couch, stepped over the dog, and without any warning at all, she leapt straight up and grabbed him on the back of the leg. It was only a pinch but it scared the &*$% out of me. There was no warning but it was a fear bite. It was a strange person doing something that she thought was threatening (stepping over her).

So how would you know that the boxer wouldn't reactively bite or snap when you just reached over and grabbed his leash??? That's not a chance I would take.

Truth is, he was probably the sweetest little munchkin honey in the whole world - but in the heat of the moment - YOU DON'T KNOW.

Diane Whippel's family had told about incidents before where those 2 dogs got loose from their owner and charged at her, and she was afraid of them. The owner thought nothing of it - ohhhh geeze, they're just being DOGS! Until the day they killed her.

You don't take chances with strange, powerful breed dogs tearing loose from their owner and running at you. If I had the opportunity to use a dressage whip as some sort of warning to the dog, I most certainly would. And I would fully expect someone else to do the same to my dogs.

GoForAGallop
Apr. 29, 2010, 04:28 PM
Wow. You know SO LITTLE about dogs. :no:

Well bless your heart, pumpkin! Just cause I haven't read the same books about dogs that you have doesn't mean I don't know a thing about them. But you go ahead and keep thinking that just because someone doesn't scream in terror at the thought of a happy bouncing Boxer that means that they're idiots...



You surely know that she says the most dangerous dogs aren't those with hackles up and growling. Those are generally the posers. The really really dangerous dogs are the ones that are stoic and resolved and quiet.
I like to think that people aren't bringing such killers out onto public trails. That may just be me thinking the best of people and animals, but find me one case, please, where someone was viciously attacked and injured by a dog on a trail?



Ia large, powerful breed dog

You keep referring to the Boxer as a "large breed dog." Oh doggie expert, surely you know that they are not considered a large breed, and usually barely break 50lbs?



So how would you know that the boxer wouldn't reactively bite or snap when you just reached over and grabbed his leash??? That's not a chance I would take.
.
I don't recall saying that I'd reach out and grab the dogs collar. But there's no reason I can't speak some friendly words to it, and pick up the leash if dog responds in equally friendly actions. Maybe I'd even call over to the owner "Hey, does the pup bite?" My FIRST RESPONSE would not be smacking the dog as "hard as I could" with a dressage whip, that's for darn sure.

Huntertwo
Apr. 29, 2010, 04:30 PM
I think the TRUE issue, for me at least, is not that the OP disciplined the dog (which was too harshly, in my opinion) but that the OP did not THEN say "Ooops, sorry, just didn't want Fido to get hurt!" as you suggested.

Instead she smacked the dog, glared at and was very rude to the owner, and then came on here to post her huffy little post.

Gallop,
Were you there?? How EXACTLY do you know what I did and did not say?

And just how do you know I was "very rude to the owner" as you said.

How did you know that I did not say "Oops, sorry, just didn't want Fido to get hurt"


Gallop,
Give it up already. You're making an ass out of yourself. :rolleyes:

Huntertwo
Apr. 29, 2010, 04:31 PM
Well bless your heart, pumpkin! Just cause I haven't read the same books about dogs that you have doesn't mean I don't know a thing about them. But you go ahead and keep thinking that just because someone doesn't scream in terror at the thought of a happy bouncing Boxer that means that they're idiots...



I like to think that people aren't bringing such killers out onto public trails. That may just be me thinking the best of people and animals, but find me one case, please, where someone was viciously attacked and injured by a dog on a trail?




You keep referring to the Boxer as a "large breed dog." Oh doggie expert, surely you know that they are not considered a large breed, and usually barely break 50lbs?


I don't recall saying that I'd reach out and grab the dogs collar. But there's no reason I can't speak some friendly words to it, and pick up the leash if dog responds in equally friendly actions. Maybe I'd even call over to the owner "Hey, does the pup bite?" My FIRST RESPONSE would not be smacking the dog as "hard as I could" with a dressage whip, that's for darn sure.

Honey, you are losing it.....as I said, give it up already. You're becoming unraveled..

GoForAGallop
Apr. 29, 2010, 04:42 PM
Still had my Dressage whip in my hands, which I carry for this purpose. I stand up and as the dog is sniffing my pony's back legs, I whack the dog as hard as I can!!!
Owner saw me and I didn't give a sheet.

She apologizes, asks me if I'm okay. I can do nothing but glare...

Then she says "Well at least they didn't bark." WTF?

I in turn (still glaring and swearing to myself) said "Well, that didn't do me any good."


None of that is considered polite--at least not in my house! Perhaps you were raised differently, though.

And I can only assume, since you neglected to contribute the fact, anywhere on this thread, that you DIDN'T say "Oops, sorry! Just protecting the dog!" It seems that if you'd said something like that, you would have mentioned it, but excuse me if that's not the case.


I'm not the one making an ass outta myself, sorry.

Auventera Two
Apr. 29, 2010, 04:51 PM
Well bless your heart, pumpkin! Just cause I haven't read the same books about dogs that you have doesn't mean I don't know a thing about them. But you go ahead and keep thinking that just because someone doesn't scream in terror at the thought of a happy bouncing Boxer that means that they're idiots...

I don't recall saying a thing about "screaming in terror." I did however say it's perfectly acceptable to defend yourself against a loose dog if you feel it is threatening you or your property.


I like to think that people aren't bringing such killers out onto public trails. That may just be me thinking the best of people and animals, but find me one case, please, where someone was viciously attacked and injured by a dog on a trail?

Yeah, I'd like to think that too. But the world is a crazy place and you JUST DON'T KNOW, do you?


You keep referring to the Boxer as a "large breed dog." Oh doggie expert, surely you know that they are not considered a large breed, and usually barely break 50lbs?

The Boxer is classified as a medium sized dog by the AKC. However, the dog might have been 35 pounds, or he might have been 80. Bloodlines, and individual dogs within certain bloodlines might vary a great deal from the standard. The Boxers I have been acquainted with have been around 70 lbs. which to "me" is a large dog. Besides - doesn't matter, a 15 pound dog charging the heels of a horse can cause damage if teeth sink into tendons, or hoof contacts skull. ;)

Edited to add: Just checked the breed listing at AKC. It says that the standard for adult males is 23-25 inches, and females are 21 1/2 to 23 1/2 inches. My beagle/walker hound cross is 21 inches and weighs 57 pounds. And trust me, he is NOT obese. So I find it hard to believe that most Boxers barely make 50 lbs. Maybe I'm wrong, and if so, I will stand corrected, but it doesn't sound right to me. My Weimaraner female is 24 inches tall and weighs 76 last she was checked. She's a lot finer and daintier than the Boxers I have seen. But I'm sure there are many small Boxers who may only be 50 lbs. but to say that most of them are like that does seem a bit strange to me.


I don't recall saying that I'd reach out and grab the dogs collar. But there's no reason I can't speak some friendly words to it, and pick up the leash if dog responds in equally friendly actions. Maybe I'd even call over to the owner "Hey, does the pup bite?" My FIRST RESPONSE would not be smacking the dog as "hard as I could" with a dressage whip, that's for darn sure.

And that's fine. You're entitled to do as you see fit, should you find yourself in such a situation. That is your right and I would respect any decision you made, should it be me and my dogs that you run into out on the trail. But to call the OP names and personally attack her because she defended her horse in a situation she felt was threatening is absolutely silly. It may not be what YOU would do, but it is what SHE did. And she has a right to do as she sees fit in such a situation.

I never ask a person if a dog bites, because ANY dog can bite at ANY time without ANY provocation, warning, or tendency. I don't care if the dog has never bitten in 15 years. He is still capable given the right stimuli. I always assume that every horse has the ability to buck me off and every dog has the ability to bite my hand. They are animals and animals sometimes do things without our permission.

Huntertwo
Apr. 29, 2010, 04:57 PM
None of that is considered polite--at least not in my house! Perhaps you were raised differently, though.

And I can only assume, since you neglected to contribute the fact, anywhere on this thread, that you DIDN'T say "Oops, sorry! Just protecting the dog!" It seems that if you'd said something like that, you would have mentioned it, but excuse me if that's not the case.


I'm not the one making an ass outta myself, sorry.

Oh, now it is only you can "assume".

Geez, it seemed like a fact on your other post.:rolleyes:

And yes, you are embarrassing yourself with all your accusations, and rude posts.

GoForAGallop
Apr. 29, 2010, 05:31 PM
Oh, now it is only you can "assume".

Geez, it seemed like a fact on your other post.:rolleyes:

And yes, you are embarrassing yourself with all your accusations, and rude posts.

Well, it's a perfectly reasonable assumption to make. DID you say "Oops, sorry, didn't want Fido to get kicked!"? No? Didn't think so.


What accusations have I made? Here are the ones I remember:

1) That you over-reacted. Yup, still stand by that one.
2) That a dog should be no big deal for a good trail horse? Yup, gotta stand by that one too.
3) That you were rude to the dog walker. Mmhmm, gotta stand by this one as well.

Am I missing any others?

YOU, on the other hand, said that just because I expect my horse to not over react to something so common as a dog on the trail, that he must be beaten and cower in fear at the sight of me. I can drag up the direct quote for you if you'd like, but it's somewhere on the first or second page.

BTW, you still have a standing invite up to my property to see my bruised and bloody trail horse. Just PM me for my address, I'm a state away from you and two minutes from a 91 exit.


As for rude? Well, perhaps, I call things how I see it occasionally. Is there one particular post that got your hackles up, especially? Feel free to quote it, and I'll consider rephrasing it to something more politically correct.


BTW, out of curiousity...is there a reason you're attacking me specifically, when almost everyone else on this thread agrees with me?

mp
Apr. 29, 2010, 05:35 PM
I think the TRUE issue, for me at least, is not that the OP disciplined the dog (which was too harshly, in my opinion) but that the OP did not THEN say "Ooops, sorry, just didn't want Fido to get hurt!" as you suggested.

Instead she smacked the dog, glared at and was very rude to the owner, and then came on here to post her huffy little post.


Better be careful or HT will start citing libel laws and threaten to call the po-leeece on your arse. :o

pmysliwski
Apr. 29, 2010, 06:25 PM
The impression I got from OP post was that she whipped the dog out of frustration and crankiness from falling off and not so much because she felt the need to protect herself or her horse.

Huntertwo
Apr. 29, 2010, 06:39 PM
As for rude? Well, perhaps, I call things how I see it occasionally. Is there one particular post that got your hackles up, especially? Feel free to quote it, and I'll consider rephrasing it to something more politically correct.


This is all assuming that I couldn't stay on my spooking horse (:lol:) and fell off. If I were still on my horse

Well, this was quite rude. Do you really think it is funny that I took a good fall off my mare?

You are in New England and many of our trails are rocky, no?

And it was you who said you have a "Come to Jesus" meeting with your horse when it spooks. No?

I don't see the point of hitting a horse that is truly afraid of something. All you're doing is comfirming their fear that they should be afraid of it.

I'm afraid and I get hit...


P.S. MP, I see you are posting. Sorry, but TLB Gang is on my ignore.

Huntertwo
Apr. 29, 2010, 07:00 PM
BTW, out of curiousity...is there a reason you're attacking me specifically, when almost everyone else on this thread agrees with me?

I'm not attacking you.
Everyone else said their opinion and I am fine with that. Everyone is entitled to weigh in.

You're the one who keeps harping whenever another poster doesn't agree with you. Uh, you have 13 posts on this thread so far?

Most people say their peace and move on. Not you.

Is this Junior High School and you're the ring leader? Just responding to your statement, "When almost everyone agrees with me?"

Is this a contest to see how many people agree with you as opposed to me?

I'm not vying for votes to see who wins.

I made a split second decision and stand by it. You do it your way and I'll do it mine. So, I don't know why the constant badgering by you.

ADM7040
Apr. 29, 2010, 08:05 PM
Well, this was quite rude. Do you really think it is funny that I took a good fall off my mare?

You are in New England and many of our trails are rocky, no?

And it was you who said you have a "Come to Jesus" meeting with your horse when it spooks. No?

I don't see the point of hitting a horse that is truly afraid of something. All you're doing is comfirming their fear that they should be afraid of it.

I'm afraid and I get hit...


P.S. MP, I see you are posting. Sorry, but TLB Gang is on my ignore.

Well, from your original post, I also thought that you hit the dog out of anger because you fell off your horse and not that you felt that either you or your horse were in danger. I also thought that you were unneccessarily rude to the dog owner when she apologized and inquired if you were alright.

Personally, I do not think it is funny that you fell off your horse, but I am going to call you a hypocrite for this statement, "Well, this was quite rude. Do you really think it is funny that I took a good fall off my mare?" Below is a recent quote from you from another thread where a video is posted of a small child that falls off a pony that is being chased by a very large bird. The bird then continues to chase the child that is so scared that he is sobbing and crawling to get away from the bird. Seems as though the child "took a good fall" and then the animal responsible for the fall was actually attacking the child and not just "sniffing the back legs" of the pony. That's alot more serious than what happened to you, buuuut, according to your quote below, you think that is quite funny.


HunterTwo wrote:

"OMG......
I haven't laughed that hard in ages....lol
Poor kid on her hands and knees trying to escape, ostrich pummels her, man pummels ostrich....lol "


I would not have gotten involved in this discussion between you and GoForAGallop, (GFAG was already handling the discussion quite well) until you pulled out this incredibly hypocritical statement. So, here goes:

Yep, you definitely are displaying an entitlement complex. Things are just fine until they happen to YOU, then you have your hissy fit and attack whoever you feel is wronging you or not agreeing with you. That is what you did to the boxer dog, and that is what you did to GoForAGallop in addition to several other posters to various degrees. You jumped all over GFAG, you made wild assumptions, took leaping conclusions and made very rude accusations at the beginning of this thread. Now you are screaming foul because you feel that it is being done to YOU.

You are being a hypocrite and the proof is your own quotes right above.

Huntertwo
Apr. 29, 2010, 08:20 PM
And duly noted that you are also arguing with everyone over at that thread also....;) Let go of the anger..

And totally different argument. Weren't you also comparing Soldiers purposely terrifying a puppy with a child who fell off the pony because the father put her in a pasture to ride which also housed a Rhea??? :confused:

lcw579
Apr. 29, 2010, 08:48 PM
yeah well, you know? the OP and her attitude would fit right in with the irritating riders on our local trails, and despite being a horse-rider myself if it ever comes up for a vote I'm voting to kick the horses off the trails. Which will probably be eagerly copied by every single other user of the trail, all of whom manage somehow to calmly pass each other without drama, insults, screaming, or whippings.

:eek: Which trails? I live outside Philly too!



Well, from your original post, I also thought that you hit the dog out of anger because you fell off your horse and not that you felt that either you or your horse were in danger. I also thought that you were unneccessarily rude to the dog owner when she apologized and inquired if you were alright.

Personally, I do not think it is funny that you fell off your horse, but I am going to call you a hypocrite for this statement, "Well, this was quite rude. Do you really think it is funny that I took a good fall off my mare?" Below is a recent quote from you from another thread where a video is posted of a small child that falls off a pony that is being chased by a very large bird. The bird then continues to chase the child that is so scared that he is sobbing and crawling to get away from the bird. Seems as though the child "took a good fall" and then the animal responsible for the fall was actually attacking the child and not just "sniffing the back legs" of the pony. That's alot more serious than what happened to you, buuuut, according to your quote below, you think that is quite funny.


HunterTwo wrote:

"OMG......
I haven't laughed that hard in ages....lol
Poor kid on her hands and knees trying to escape, ostrich pummels her, man pummels ostrich....lol "


I would not have gotten involved in this discussion between you and GoForAGallop, (GFAG was already handling the discussion quite well) until you pulled out this incredibly hypocritical statement. So, here goes:

Yep, you definitely are displaying an entitlement complex. Things are just fine until they happen to YOU, then you have your hissy fit and attack whoever you feel is wronging you or not agreeing with you. That is what you did to the boxer dog, and that is what you did to GoForAGallop in addition to several other posters to various degrees. You jumped all over GFAG, you made wild assumptions, took leaping conclusions and made very rude accusations at the beginning of this thread. Now you are screaming foul because you feel that it is being done to YOU.

You are being a hypocrite and the proof is your own quotes right above.

Sorry, H2 while I disagree with ADM7040 on the other thread she's got you dead to rights on this one.

GoForAGallop
Apr. 29, 2010, 08:51 PM
You're the one who keeps harping whenever another poster doesn't agree with you. Uh, you have 13 posts on this thread so far?

Most people say their peace and move on. Not you.


I have 13 posts because there have been many posts specifically addressed to me, which I answered. I tend not to ignore people when they're speaking to me.

As for the rather irrelevant bit about highschool popularity contests--no, that's not at all what I meant when I mentioned everyone else agreeing with me. I mentioned it because you are singling me out from many other people who are saying the exact same thing.

Again, please do PM me for my address so that you can come see my beaten and bloody horse who cowers in fear. He's a grey, so the blood marks from my barbed wire whip show up quite nicely. :rolleyes: Or if you can't bear to come see the horror in person, PM me for my Facebook page, I have lots of pictures of him on there.

Look: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=9910967&l=d8883132fe&id=784270214 In this photo, you can see where I've beaten him down to the very BONE!! Oh nooessss! :lol:

ADM7040
Apr. 29, 2010, 09:31 PM
And duly noted that you are also arguing with everyone over at that thread also....;) Let go of the anger..

And totally different argument. Weren't you also comparing Soldiers purposely terrifying a puppy with a child who fell off the pony because the father put her in a pasture to ride which also housed a Rhea??? :confused:

Yeah, there are definitely 2 sides on the other thread, but there is no bickering and blatant attacks going on over there like what you are doing over here. And I highly doubt that anyone who has read my posts on the other thread would have described my posts as angry. Plenty of people disagreed with my opinion, some thought they were ridiculous even, but there was no anger from me and I don't recall any posts directed towards me that I would describe as angry either. Actually, one of the most recent posters wrote "ADM, you are being reasonable which is not fun at all."

Sorry HunterTwo, but you are again attacking in a ridiculous and inappropriate manner because someone did not agree with you. I guess you have nothing to say about your hypocritical statements. But then again, what can you say, the quotes are right there. So what do you do? You attack, again.

spotted mustang
Apr. 29, 2010, 11:03 PM
If a strange dog ran up to my horse's hindlegs to sniff them, I'd be mostly worried about the dog. My horse isn't afraid of dogs - he lives on a farm with a whole pack of them - but he hates them, and will try to nail them if they come too close. The farm dogs know this, but some poor happy pooch on the trail may not.

When I have strange, rambunctious dogs bounding up to me, I dismount, mainly to keep them from getting their heads kicked in. I've also found that very excited dogs tend to get more reasonable when they see a person on the ground. If I ever felt I had to whack a dog away from my horse's legs to save its life, I'd probably do so. Other than that, I love dogs as much as horses and I've never yet met a truly aggressive dog on a trail ride, just some pretty excited noisy ones. :)

Long Spot
Apr. 30, 2010, 12:29 AM
she's got you dead to rights on this one.

It sure seems so, doesn't it?

Huntertwo
Apr. 30, 2010, 06:19 AM
And just how does a strange dog running toward me on a trail compare with a video obviously released on purpose from the parent or guardian of this child, who is riding in his own pasture with presumably other family pets contained in the same pasture? :rolleyes:

The father continued to video tape although it was clear the pony was getting chased by the Rhea. Only after the child was on the ground for several seconds did the father approach the Rhea.

Much different than a totally strange dog coming after you.

ADM7040
Apr. 30, 2010, 07:30 AM
And just how does a strange dog running toward me on a trail compare with a video obviously released on purpose from the parent or guardian of this child, who is riding in his own pasture with presumably other family pets contained in the same pasture? :rolleyes:

The father continued to video tape although it was clear the pony was getting chased by the Rhea. Only after the child was on the ground for several seconds did the father approach the Rhea.

Much different than a totally strange dog coming after you.

Huntertwo, your very childish attempt at obfuscation does not alter any facts. Obviously you did not like being called out for being a hypocrite and now you are attempting to muddy the waters to avoid the subject.

If you would like me to remind you EXACTLY why I called you a hypocrite then I will suggest to you that you go back and re-read my post #165 where I spell out, complete with quotes from you, EXACTLY why you are being a hypocrite.

My guess is you will not address the hypocrisy of your words, instead you will make another attempt to attack or try to obfuscate some more. It does not matter, you have been called out for what you have done, the proof is in your own quotes and the rest of your posts. I have no doubt that this proof will not alter you one bit.

chancy deal
May. 3, 2010, 12:16 PM
I have trained my horses to turn and face ANY scary object.
You cant desensitize a horse to every possible scary thing that you might come across on a trail. dogs, cars, deer, etc. It's infinite! (just like the landing hotair baloon!)
What you can do is teach them HOW to react when they get scared.
You teach them to turn & face what's scaring them.

Granted, that might just be what the OP's horse did. Sometimes those 180 turns can be quite ferocious, to face head-on those 'sudden' scary objects coming up quick behind you.

mp
May. 3, 2010, 12:56 PM
I usually turn to face scary things, too. Also, keep in mind the OP's horse is blind in one eye, so it's even more important that she be able to turn and see any scary object.

Love those hot air balloons. I was riding alone one lovely fall evening near the barn. I saw the balloon in the distance and it kept getting closer and closer, then lower and lower, occasionally firing the burner. I thought "surely, they're not going to land HERE," but we turned and faced it just in case. Sure enough they dropped down about 150' feet away.

My horse really didn't react as much as I thought she would. I think she was as incredulous as I was. :lol:

wendy
May. 3, 2010, 12:59 PM
But the fact is - dogs are predators. And you just DON'T KNOW that dog's intentions. You don't know if he is capable of attacking without putting on an agressive display first.


dogs don't put on "aggressive" displays when predating. Because they are not being aggressive. Chasing down and killing prey isn't "aggression". Often predating dogs have body language similar to happy, playing dogs.

From my own "How to deal with loose dogs while riding a horse"

-Expose your horse to friendly, calm, horse-savvy dogs as often as you can. Invite your friends to bring em over and turn em loose in the arena if necessary.

-Most dogs have never seen horses and are afraid of them. If the dog is barking, snarling, hackles raised, some kind of display, the dog is terrified of the horse. If you turn the horse to face the dog and calmly tell the dog to knock it off and go home and then start slowly walking forward towards the dog, most such dogs will turn and run. Unless the dog thinks you are on his property, in which case there is a remote possibility he will attack the advancing horse; so if you think the dog may think you are getting into his territory, slowly walking on by while talking in a calm quiet voice may be your best bet.

-The most common way a curious dog will investigate your horse is by coming up behind the horse and sniffing at the hind legs. Dogs think the FRONT end of animals (the teeth end) is the dangerous part, so they go the rear to try to figure out what this thing is. This is fine; I would let the dog have some sniffs if your horse isn't a kicker, (in hopes that next horse-dog encounter the dog will have no interest in the horse), while talking calmly to the dog, and then very slowly start walking away.

-NEVER move away from a dog at speed. Walk very slowly away. Speed of any kind may trigger predatory chase n bite behavior.

-NEVER dismount and attempt to capture a loose dog you don't know. Good way to get bitten.

-Be especially careful with herding dogs. They may attempt to herd your horse, a behavior that is similar to predatory behavior- circling, chasing, nipping. You can try meeting their eyes and telling them to knock it off, or try some common commands like Down, or just stand your horse still in hopes their instincts will quiet down in the face of a non-responsive animal.

-Do not attempt to train, scold, discipline, or whip other people's dogs unless you are in fear for your life, since many Fido Owners will become irate and the encounter will go downhill from there.

-Most Dog Owners know diddly-squat about horses, and would like to be instructed in how to act around them, and would really like their dogs to behave appropriately around horses. Being calm and friendly while being informative (Hi! can you heel your dog past me on the right side of the trail? THANKS! Or Hi! Can you please just keep walking instead of hiding behind that bush, the horse gets scared by people hiding!) goes a long way.

-Scolding Dog Owners about Leash Laws, even if you happen to know for 100% certainty there is one in that particular location, never goes over well. Usually the owner knows full-well he's in violation and doesn't care to be reminded, or he knows that there isn't one in effect in that location and you are just being an irritating PITA.

-Flexis can cut your horse's legs to the bone. If a dog on a flexi tries to run around or under your horse your best bet is to panic. Oh wait, no. Rapid dismount and with gloved hands gasp flexi cord might be your best option.

Wooly Wintertime
May. 3, 2010, 02:13 PM
In my experience, the majority of dog owners don't bother to train their dogs and expect other people to put up with their dogs' unruly behavior.

If you allow your dogs to run loose and run up behind a horse, you are an irresponsible dog owner. Your dog does not deserve to be kicked by my horse. Your dog deserves to be TRAINED.

:)

Don't we all have a friend who thinks it's the cutest thing when their 100lb Lab x happily bounds at their visitors and does nothing but "lovingly" maul and jump on them when they visit? I like dogs, have two. But they are trained to listen to come, stay, off, and heel and they obey to those commands.

I probably would have reacted much like the OP though. I'm not going to mess around with the safety of my being, my horse, or your dog because you can't control him. I've broken bones once in my lifetime from my horse being chased by a dog. It's not going to happen again if I can help it.

goeslikestink
May. 3, 2010, 05:26 PM
omg is this post still going on

i have reported the thread everyone as had there say
now move on
put thy big girls pants on and pull them up and move on
its like being at an old grannies tea party lol
bicker bicker bicker

katarine
May. 3, 2010, 05:36 PM
The situation was calm enough that the following are true:

The dog did not sufficiently startle the horse into bolting or even trying to flee the scence.

The dog abandoned the leg-sniffing activity after a single whack with a dressage whip.

The horse did not trample the fallen rider or the strange dog, presumably she spooked at the leash in the leaves moreso than the actual dog.

The dog's owner was not sufficiently offended by the whack to say anything about its occurence.

The OP was not injured in the unexpected dismount.

The horse was not injured by the dog.

The OP did not crawl away on her hands and knees shrieking in fear.

The OP got to her feet and whacked a stranger's dog out of embarrassment.


all of that adds up in my mind to an embarrassed OP who took it out an a mostly innocent dog. The dog's biggest offense was being owned by someone who put the wrong leash on him. Yawn. But again, if the OP had been spook/dumped by a rhea then assaulted by it, oh the hilarity.

Frankly, I don't get that.

nickers@dawn
May. 3, 2010, 05:51 PM
I think most people watching the rhea video were not laughing at the child getting dumped, but the strange configuration of events. Bird in pasture, wayward donkey, child not standing up but crawling away. I guess it was just so strange and that combination made it funny.

And the op of this thread just had a bad day and made the mistake of complaining about it here. ;)

Moderator 1
May. 3, 2010, 08:21 PM
As everyone has had plenty of opportunity to express their opinions and before things get more heated, we're going to close this one down and ask folks to move on down the trail...


Thanks,
Mod 1