Ethical question: Is it morally 'right' to geld a horse? [Archive]

TB or not TB?

Nov. 25, 2005, 02:23 AM

I was going to post this in the breeding forum, but quite frankly I'm too scared to. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Let me preface by saying I'm not endorsing leaving all male horses entire, I like geldings and have owned them exclusively up until my new mare, and I don't ask this from a "should we try to breed them" stance. I'm just curious about people's opinions. I don't have an answer, myself.

Now that the disclaimers have been stated, consider the topic at hand. When a friend of mine bought a weanling last year, her husband was extremely reluctant to castrate him (both were horse people) and kept cancelling the appointments with the vet and whatnot. According to his wife this was because he sympathized with the colt and the mere thought of removing anyone/thing's testicles made him cringe. Eventually the wife had the horse gelded when the husband went out of town for a week, and he was fine with it - for him it was more about the authorization piece, as in, "I can't do that to another guy" than having a stud or wanting to keep him intact.

In Denmark they banned castrating pigs, to be effective in 2009, for animal rights issues. I don't really have a problem with mass castration for most livestock since they generally end up on someone's dinner table, but horses don't (hopefully!!!) fit into this category. I guess I'm just wondering if it's really okay for us to de-sexitize (that's probably a word http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif) an animal that we treat as an athlete/partner/worker/pet/family just because we don't want to work around the difficulties of keeping them as stallions. Don't get me wrong - I infinitely prefer a quiet gelding to a hormone-crazed-fire-breathing monster as some studs can be. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I just don't know if they'd pick to be that way if they had a choice. I suppose it's possible they wouldn't care; certainly not all of the Castrati (Italian men who were castrated to prevent puberty/voice change) were displeased. I just think it's odd that we take it for granted: before this popped into my head, it never occurred to me to question the practice, and I wonder how much is necessity (probably a bunch) and how much is just custom.

Also, for those of you who've worked extensively with both stallions and geldings, do you find that they lose anything in the gelding process - like heart or spark or something? I haven't had much experience comparing the two, but I definitely see the look of eagles more on stallions than geldings. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I'm curious to hear your responses!

TB or not TB?

Nov. 25, 2005, 02:23 AM

chai

Nov. 25, 2005, 02:41 AM

Not only is it morally ok to geld horses, I think it should be legal to geld annoying boyfriends and husbands.

Pharma Chick

Nov. 25, 2005, 02:46 AM

While we're at it, let's stop neutering dogs and cats too... That way we can have millions more of unwanted pets in the shelters and roaming the streets. I think any responsible pet owner (horses included) should have their animal fixed if they do not plan on breeding. Not to mention the fact that horses weight over 1000 lbs and stallions can be high maintenance.

emartell93

Nov. 25, 2005, 04:02 AM

I see NO problem in it!

After the birth of our second child, we knew we didn't want more (well, I didn't, he would if he could) so he went in 3 months after the birth and got "gelded" (well, the human form).

Most men who are comfortable with themselves are NOT going to bring up the arguement, they see the bigger picture and are intelligent enough to realize it's the smart and right thing to do!

I had a male dog who I rescued. He was intact. He was a retired hunting dog and I proceeded to show him in rare breed classes (he wasn't really a rescue, I wanted one of the breed, he was done with his hunting, no one wanted him). He did well in shows but, he seemed anxious all the time, he'd pee in the house, mark EVERYTHING, chew, couldn't focus (although that is a breed characteristic in itself). Eventually, the right people came along and he was neutered and rehomed. After he was neutered, it was an overnight change, he never peed/marked in the house, never chewed and would lay on the couch all day long. Neutering calmed him down as he wasn't fretting all the time (at no fault of his own). If they're not getting used for breeding purposes, animals should be fixed, it's fair to them. They don't understand why they feel how they do, when their hormones get out of whack.

I think this is a silly debate that men have started when they're uncomfortable with their manliness and to boost their ego, they bring it up because they're so "manly". I truly manly man wouldn't care!!

J Swan

Nov. 25, 2005, 04:19 AM

Any domestic animal, including livestock, that is not kept for breeding should be neutered.

The reasons are legion. Including safety of the human handler, the safety of the animal - but most importantly - they are our responsibility.

As an aside - Denmark is nuts. Banning castrating pigs? Bowing to the demands of AR nuts is just plain stupid. Intact males are agressive with humans and with each other.

Dalriada

Nov. 25, 2005, 04:23 AM

You can always do chemical sterilization which can be reversed with shots of testosterone at any point in time.

Removes the "horror" of physical surgery.

(Can you tell I watched Law & Order last night?)

SLW

Nov. 25, 2005, 04:24 AM

Morally it is the responsible action to follow. That one action opens doors and opportunities for the male horse that would not be there should it be kept a stallion.

Ditto JSwam reflections on Denmark.

Jumphigh83

Nov. 25, 2005, 04:27 AM

Stallions are a PIA to keep! All they think about is breeding so if you only want to create more horses go for it...other than that CASTRATE..there are VERY FEW horses that deserve to be sires and the rest would have no job at all if they are entires. Even fewer people are capable of handling stallions safely. Nothing is uglier than a stallion that gets agressive and there is no contingency plan for that..it just happens.....the handler I saw had his leg over his head (broken hip) and the stallion was grinding him into the ground. NO warning no provocation the horse just snapped one day. Ethically right? Good God; I thought this was one of the "moose" postings.....

sid

Nov. 25, 2005, 04:32 AM

Any large animal veterinarian will tell you that stallions are much more dangerous and unpredictable than a bull.

Considering that horses are used for RECREATION, I think it's "ethically wrong" (for the sake of human safety) to NOT castrate unless that animal is so exceptional for the contribution it may make to the gene pool.

When you look at so many posts about people and their "problem horses" (that are mares/gelding, etc.), much of it stemming from inexperience, imagine the danger of keeping all male horses intact. The danger to kids and adults alike, not to mention the management of them.

It always fries me when men are reluctant to neuter or spay animals...thinking with their "kahunas". And that of course has nothing to do with animal and/or human welfare http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif. Just wait til your friend's weanling turns into a raging bundle of hormones, bites their child or pounds their favorite dog if he gets loose in the stallion's pasture. Then he just might decide to use his brain.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

sid

Nov. 25, 2005, 04:44 AM

BTW, the only thing I've seen a male horse "lose" when the testicles come off is:

1) Having to most likely a live a life isolated from the rest of the herd

2) His desire for phyical combat (aggression)

3) His desire and distraction of always wanting to have sex.

As a rider, these are GOOD things to "lose". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CuriosoJorge

Nov. 25, 2005, 04:47 AM

Anyone traveling to Denmark, don't eat the pork. Leaving the testosterone in a pig gives the meat "boar taint" so it will taste not to appetizing to the American palate!

Evalee Hunter

Nov. 25, 2005, 04:52 AM

I would suspect that the banning of pig castration has to do with the fact that they are generally castrated without benefit of anesthesia.

I have seen a colt (our colt, Andy) loose his life as a result of castration (by a veterinarian) & that is not an uncommon result so they do have something to loose besides desire, testes, etc.

I still think gelding is the correct thing to do. It is a better alternative than in some places where male horses not slated for breeding are simply slaughtered.

Sing Mia Song

Nov. 25, 2005, 04:59 AM

I personally believe that all eggs and sperm should be removed at birth and only given back in exceptional circumstances. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Everything on my farm, including the husband, is sterile. Strangely enough, I'm the only one who isn't sterile, and I plan to take care of that rather soon as well (Just read about a woman on the pill, who had her period all nine months, went to the hospital for severe cramps and popped out and 8 pounder. I can't think of anything more horrifying.).

Seriously, though, I think gelding is actually a kind thing to do. Horses are herd animals, and stallions face a life of isolation. Not to mention the risks of working with them.

blaster

Nov. 25, 2005, 05:06 AM

Until recently, I would have said geld'em. That is until I saw both Cavalia and The Spanish riding school in action. Cavalia has something like 35 horses, and 22 are stallions. The spanish riding school all were stallions.

Not a single kick was thrown in any performance, and those horses were close to eachother.

Obviously, it is possible to have a nice stallion; most of us just don't have the skills.

M. O'Connor

Nov. 25, 2005, 05:07 AM

<<When a friend of mine bought a weanling last year, her husband was extremely reluctant to castrate him (both were horse people) >>

By no stretch of the imagination were these horse people. You can have horses for a really long time, and NEVER be "horse people."

There is no explaining it to someone who just "doesn't get it." Sounds like these fit that description.

Horses are gelded or not for valid reasons that have to do with temperament and breeding potential; ideally, evaluations of both are made by competent horsemen. This is certainly not the case here, either in the case of the situation described, or particularly, in the case of the question itself.

JumpItHighPie

Nov. 25, 2005, 05:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blaster:
Until recently, I would have said geld'em. That is until I saw both Cavalia and The Spanish riding school in action. Cavalia has something like 35 horses, and 22 are stallions. The spanish riding school all were stallions.

Not a single kick was thrown in any performance, and those horses were close to eachother.

Obviously, it is possible to have a nice stallion; most of us just don't have the skills. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're talking about the Spanish Ridng School here... Lets let every average Joe in the States school on a Stallion and see what happens. SRC students work 2 years without stirrups, their sense of 'being' on a horse is more profound than likely anything we will ever reach in our lifetime. This is an extremely high standard to make an observation of and form an opinion.

county

Nov. 25, 2005, 05:17 AM

Theres no sane reason not to geld almost all colts.

On the same line as chai's thoughts theres a whole lot of women that need to be spayed.

arabhorse2

Nov. 25, 2005, 05:30 AM

Geld 'em. Animals don't think like humans, and aren't responsible for their actions if left intact.

It frets and frustrates an intact male, if he's not going to be used for breeding purposes. I've always felt exceptionally sorry for "teaser" stallions.

As far as geldings "losing" something? Not much, except their sex drive. Conny's a pistol as a gelding; I couldn't imagine what he'd have been like if left intact. He's not good enough to have been left a stallion anyway, although he's an extremely lovely example of his breed.

Besides, why would I have wanted to pass on that evil, rank, unsociable personality? He likes people, and is controllable under saddle and in hand, but has never been good around other horses in a pasture situation.

Casper's another example of not good enough to be a stallion. He's very pretty, but he has conformation faults that I'd be reluctant to pass along to future generations.

Give the animals peace of mind, and be a responsible owner. That's what castrating and spaying is all about.

carolprudm

Nov. 25, 2005, 05:55 AM

When my vet was castrating my colt he commented that he usually performed the surgery with an audience of giggling females.I told him that most of us knew at least one man who would benefit from the surgery.

Pixie Dust

Nov. 25, 2005, 06:19 AM

What an odd question. I think all animals are happier gelded/neutered. Being ruled by your hormones 24/7 is not exactly fun when you can't act on it.

EBO

Nov. 25, 2005, 06:31 AM

Absolutely do geld. What's missing in a gelded horse is the frustration from being a stallion who is kept away from its herd. IMO, it is the height of self-centeredness to keep a stallion entire only to be brought out to breed or to be collected, then popped right back into its stallion-proof enclosure.

I think that everyone who keeps a stallion, including the harpies who frequent the breeding category, should be very dedicated to providing his/her stallion with with a good quality of life rather than 20 years of solitary confinement, then off to the knackers. Further, I think that all who keep stallions are morally obligated to provide funds for rescue of those members of their stallion's offspring who find themselves in a situation such as: http://www.columbiabasinequinerescue.org .

I should post this on the breeding forum; it would produce enough venom and angst to suppy the bb's energy bill for months.

Penthilisea

Nov. 25, 2005, 06:42 AM

If there was another effective method of equine birth control I would consider not gelding my boys. I believe it to be the only effective form of equine birth control currently on the market- in our society with too many disposable horses this is a prime concern to me.

saratoga

Nov. 25, 2005, 06:54 AM

Of course we "fix" all of our animals- but my husband can't stand the thought of castration. The first time I saw the silliness of it was when we had 2 male kittens- I brought them in to the vet's office to get their shots, and the vet told me she wasn't busy and could neuter them right then, so I had it done. My husband was so upset when I got home- I thought he was joking at first, but he wasn't. He knows it has to be done but he kind of goes through a grieving process http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Critters Everywhere

Nov. 25, 2005, 06:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sing Mia Song:
I personally believe that all eggs and sperm should be removed at birth and only given back in exceptional circumstances. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Everything on my farm, including the husband, is sterile. Strangely enough, I'm the only one who isn't sterile, and I plan to take care of that rather soon as well (Just read about a woman on the pill, who had her period all nine months, went to the hospital for severe cramps and popped out and 8 pounder. I can't think of anything more horrifying.).

Seriously, though, I think gelding is actually a kind thing to do. Horses are herd animals, and stallions face a life of isolation. Not to mention the risks of working with them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly!

(except I'm too cheap to go get neutered myself http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It was $75 for Mr CE's operation--county health dept--it would be several thousand for mine & insurance won't cover it since it's not a medical need for me)

ESG

Nov. 25, 2005, 06:58 AM

It's morally neutral. It's a surgical procedure. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But to address the question I think you actually intended to ask, yes, it is right to geld horses not intended for breeding. If it were easier to spay mares that are not suitable breeding stock, I'd say that was appropriate, also. Most horses are not good breeding prospects, as are most dogs and cats. So why allow inferior specimens to procreate, when it's easily preventable? IMO, <zipping up flame suit here>, there are plenty of stallions out there already who would make fine, FINE geldings - why add to the problem?

sid

Nov. 25, 2005, 07:00 AM

EBO, you won't get any venom from me.

If I was not able to keep my stallions in a situation where they have wide open turnout in an environment where they can "be a horse", run and play freely, see and interact with other horses (albiet across a fenceline)or in an adjoining stall, I personally wouldn't own one.

And yes, in the last 3 years I've wound up taking 3 different foals who either needed to be "rescued" or whose owners fell on financial hard times (I don't breed babies any more). The last thing I needed were 3 youngsters, but BUT I felt it was my obligation to ensure these offspring don't "fall through the cracks" and get good homes. One was a really outstanding youngster with the quality one would look for in a stallion prospect. But, guess what?...I just gelded him. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Laurierace

Nov. 25, 2005, 07:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sing Mia Song:
I personally believe that all eggs and sperm should be removed at birth and only given back in exceptional circumstances. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Everything on my farm, including the husband, is sterile. Strangely enough, I'm the only one who isn't sterile, and I plan to take care of that rather soon as well (Just read about a woman on the pill, who had her period all nine months, went to the hospital for severe cramps and popped out and 8 pounder. I can't think of anything more horrifying.).

Seriously, though, I think gelding is actually a kind thing to do. Horses are herd animals, and stallions face a life of isolation. Not to mention the risks of working with them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is my philosophy as well. I cut everything, hubby included! Just think what kind of world we would live in if our leaders were thinking with the head on their shoulders. Of course we would have to keep a select few intact for the survival of the species. Book yourself to Brad Pitt for an October baby.

deltawave

Nov. 25, 2005, 07:07 AM

Morals are generally only something with which we torture our fellow humans. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

One might also argue if it's ethical to ride, confine, or eat our fellow animals. Oh wait, some people DO argue those things... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Nope, not gonna get involved. I want to go to the tack store. Have a great day! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

oldenmare

Nov. 25, 2005, 07:10 AM

Gelding is ABSOLUTELY the moral, responsible, ethical AND right thing to do.

I can name dozens of geldings who were stallion prospects, but ended up being gelded because their ATTITUDES & BEHAVIOR (with consistent professional quality handling) showed they simply were not of the temperment to be kept intact.

Who would provide the homes for these horses if kept intact? And who would pay the medical expenses of those injured (human and equine) for their natural behaviour?

HAVE YOU SEEN THE DAMAGE A STALLION CAN INFLICT UPON ANOTHER BEING??????

Having handled stallions on a large scale basis - TOO many are left intact that should have been gelded from day one.

And TOO many people think they can handle a stallion when they have NO business messing with one. Of course, this is just another argument for Darwinism IMO.

Sannois

Nov. 25, 2005, 07:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Any domestic animal, including livestock, that is not kept for breeding should be neutered </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Amen!!! Its irresponsible to leave things intact and breed just to breed, Lets not even talk about the over population of cats and dogs, and the amount that are dumped, Rrrrr every year. I think it could be looked at the same with horses, their are horses that are intact that should never be! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

royal1

Nov. 25, 2005, 07:16 AM

Laurie,
I would book to Brad Pitt for a September baby, would need time to recup from the previous year's Steve Yzerman baby! lol.
And EBO, I agree with you, my stallion has the biggest winter turnout of all my horses and he can play on two sides with the others, he has a very special bond with my weanling filly and she rears up and kicks him all day through the fence..lol, he just takes it and licks her neck and back.
I had my only colt out of my favorite mare, she was pretty well bred too, by Fappiano out of a What a Pleasure mare, well she died foaling his little brother who also died, so I thought that I would keep him intact(more for sentimental reasons then anything)well he got out of control at 2, the barn owner couldn't lead him in or out anymore without him rearing and striking, he would stop and talk to every mare..he didn't do these things with me but it was scary for the barn workers etc...then at the racetrack he kept flipping himself over and even knocked himself out cold! (still flipped after that too!) So he lost his begonias...it was sad at first but DEFINATELY the right thing to do! He is so good now, never missbehaves (well almost never) I should say does not rear or care about the mares anymore(he is 4 now).
The cool thing is that my stallion has the same lines as my now gelding, it was like he were a gift from God for making the right choice!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tbowner

Nov. 25, 2005, 07:28 AM

I voted 'yes'
Morally I feel its wrong.

Unfortunately its neccessary in our world.

For the pigs- I think because they dont use anything to dull or inhibit pain thats why its so cruel. Cudos to those in support of the pigs feelings, but I wonder if there will be other issues now.
Ive castrated a few pigs. What a horrible and cruel job. The pigs quiet down right after, but its gotta hurt for a few days still.

When I gelded my colt, I wondered if he could still feel,though he was knocked out. He cringed, jerked and gasped/snorted at various points of the procedure.
After when I was tossing his nuts into the manure pile I felt like crying. I wanted to ask the vet to put them back on.

tbowner

Nov. 25, 2005, 07:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Laurierace: Book yourself to Brad Pitt for an October baby. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol, thats funny.

jetjocky

Nov. 25, 2005, 07:43 AM

I had a nice stallion who has made a wonderful gelding--for all the reasons already stated. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

hoopoe

Nov. 25, 2005, 07:53 AM

I say if you are going to leave you animal entire then you have to provide for its natural urges and the resulting offspring.

Unless you then think abortion and pinching is aok\\

Men seem to make this into a sexuality issue, which it is not.

MandyVA

Nov. 25, 2005, 07:56 AM

Someone mentioned their husband getting the human equivalent of gelding. It's actually very different to get a vasectomy than to be castrated. You husband still has his testicles and all the hormones they produce. It is possible to give a vasectomy to cats, dogs, and horses, just like with people. When I interned with a vet in high school, during a cat neutering, the vet showed me how they could just cut the proper tubes and leave the testicles in and the cat could not breed but would still have all his parts.

I asked why they don't just do that and he said because it would still have all the bad behaviors of tom cats--spraying, roaming, etc. So men who have some opposition to their male pets getting castrated do have a middle of the road option--they can be rendered sterile without losing their, uh, masculinity. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

My point is that the comments about castration being ethical because it prevents unwanted breeding are leaving out the fact that you can prevent the breeding without castration. I think it's really the behavior and not the ability to breed that people are concerned about when they neuter their pets or horses. My horse and my cats are all castrated, but behavior was definitely foremost in my mind when I had them neutered, not concerns about them breeding.

Magnolia

Nov. 25, 2005, 08:00 AM

OK, neutering is not only birth control, it also alters the personality of the animal. A vasectomy is birth control without altering behavior. Can you give a horse (or dog or cat) a vasectomy so they can act on natural urges without impregnating more animals? I would think this would satisfy "macho" pet owners without causing overpopulation.

But I have no problem with neutering.

What steams me are people who argue neutering is cruel, but will drown a sack of kittens or drop a load of puppies at the pound.

blueboo

Nov. 25, 2005, 08:04 AM

I voted yes.

If we are going to remove horses from the natural food chain, and if we are going to keep them in urban, semi-urban, or even rural enclosed areas where they MUST live in proximity to each other, people, dogs, cats, cars, goats and whatnot, then we most definitely DO have a moral responsibility to make their lives as stress free as possible - and that absolutely includes removing the breeding imparative that comes with testosterone.

Then there's the whole question of 'fitness' to reproduce - which again, by removing any semblance of 'natural selection' (i.e. survival of the strongest, fittest, smartest or sneakiest http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) that also imposes a moral obligation on us, as humans, to do our utmost to see that the species doesn't degenerate to it's lowest common genetic denominator.

Of course I ALSO believe that probably 95% of the human race should undergo mandatory 'sterilization" too. (And no - I DON't have any children - I've just never felt that my personal genetic material was so special that I needed to reproduce it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

EBO

Nov. 25, 2005, 08:15 AM

Sid, I will recommend you for sainthood should I ever find a religion who does things the right (my) way. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Royal1--you're okay, too.

I think I'm in a snit because of being recently exposed (not in the biblical sense) to a stallion OWNER, who should have been castrated at birth, at least. A lobotomy would have been a nice addition as long as they had him under.

Albion

Nov. 25, 2005, 08:22 AM

I've never understood the anthropomorphizing that goes on with the fixing issue - my foster dog was neutered last Wednesday, and it completely no worse for the wear. He's still the big ham he used to be, and it's not like he moped for days and days. I did feel terrible when one of my fosters had a bad reaction to surgery & was very swollen and had subcutaneous bleeding for days afterwards - he was obviously in pain when I picked him up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif But things like that are not enough for me to say "don't neuter!!" I've met a lot of nice stallions, but I've also met plenty of people who I'd hate to see own one. Also, most places in the US are NOT set up for stallion ownership - a number of boarding barns won't allow stallions at all. If you have your own place & can give the horse a good quality of life, have at it, but I've met a lot of miserable stallions in my lifetime. Horses that were basically locked up from the outside world - what kind of life is that for a horse?

I guess for me it's a more pressing issue in dogs & cats, since there are lots of health risks that can come along with refusing to spay/neuter your pet, as well as a lot easier for an accidental breeding (and more resulting offspring!) - I don't know if those hold true in horses (I don't think so, though). The boyfriend of a girl I knew refused to spay his female - she was 9 by the time it got done, because the dog was suffering from pyrometra, which is a uterine infection that occurs not infrequently with unspayed females (esp. ones who have never been bred). Basically her uterus filled up with pus - it was draining, thank god, and they managed to get her to the vet in time, otherwise the dog could've died.

Shiaway

Nov. 25, 2005, 08:39 AM

While I think it is generally a good idea to geld a horse I would like to ask,

How many of those people here who have said that it is morally wrong to leave a stallion un-castrated, would say it's ok to leave a mare intact?

I find that there seems to be a double standard for stallions and mares. It's ok to leave a mare intact but not a stallion?

I could have turned my stallion (he's now a gelding) out with other geldings fine. He was and still is one of the best mannered horses I've ever known. As a stallion he was very respectful. He is a Lusitano which is an important contributer to his temperment of course.

But because he was a stallion he had to be gelded.

Yet I have known many mares who are dangerous to handle. One I know right now has kicked three people. She tries to kick at any horse across the fence. Another mare I know slams herself against the walls when she is in heat to the point where she continualy injures herself.

But if I had left Sol as a stallion, despite the fact that he never caused any problems as a stallion, you could put him next to anyone, he was well behaved in his stall, no bad habits, never was aggresive etc. etc. everyone in the barn would feel that I was morally wrong to leave him as such because I wasn't going to breed him.

Many times I wish I had not gelded him. Because of his temperment I think he would have been fine even next to another horse out in the paddock like he is today. I don't think his life would have been miserable as a stallion and he wouldn't have been a danger to the barn workers. But the mares I know are more dangerous than he was as a stallion IMO. But it's ok, they're mares.

Gen

Nov. 25, 2005, 08:42 AM

Having worked with stallions on a breeding farm, I can say some of them do not live a terribly nice life - always worrying about the mares, feeling the need to ascertain their supremacy over the other stallions, they seem worried all the time and not very happy except when they are breeding. There are also the issues of handling them, the limited turnout and interaction with other horses they get. The happiest stallions I've seen are those that pasture breed and are kept out with their mares, but that is far from a frequent situation.

So yes I think gelding male horses is the kinder thing to do.

I've attended a clinic with the brother of the man who runs the Cavalia show. While I do agree it is wonderful to see the show with the stallions performing together harmoniously, do not believe they never have agression problems with the stallions. Interestingly, this guy has his own performing horses, and they are all mares. He says his brother is sometimes quite jealous of the way his mares get along... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Erin Pittman

Nov. 25, 2005, 08:48 AM

I voted no, but I meant to vote Yes (sorry!). I do think it is ethical to castrate them for the very reasons that have already been mentioned.

Chanter

Nov. 25, 2005, 08:55 AM

I think it is terribly morally irrsponsible NOT to geld a stallion, & that is with very, very rare exception. OMG, the mere thought of a boarding stable full of stallions & mares whose assorted owners come out to hack once or twice a week, or even less. DEATH, DESTRUCTION, CARNAGE, LOSS OF LIFE & LIMB!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

BornToRide

Nov. 25, 2005, 08:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chai:
Not only is it morally ok to geld horses, I think it should be legal to geld annoying boyfriends and husbands. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Aside from this I think it's mainly a safety issue. A lot of stallions can be extremely agressive. You are not doing yourself a favor keeping a stallion intact unless he's an absolute saint!

J Swan

Nov. 25, 2005, 09:13 AM

Actually, I've known a few mares that were spayed for various reasons.

Usually males are the ones "fixed" because it is less invasive and less risky. But I've known mares spayed because of horrible behavior problems.

I think most humans need to be fixed too - but many people get upset at that thought.

I suppose Denmark will ban dehorning next. I think it's very interesting that AR people would not want pigs castrated, yet oppose breeding. Soooo.... don't they know how pigs are made?
Too much anthromoporphizing!

Horse may be good breeding material? Keep him intact. Needs to be a horse that will live with mares or other males? Cut 'em off. No biggie.

Same thing with any other domestic animal - geez. Just put the crusher to 'em or the castration band. They'll be a little sore but they'll be ok in the long run. We put little kids through much worse! Shots, circumcision, braces, fluffy lacy underwear on little girls(oh how itchy)

I wonder how all the Danes are going to deal with all those boars..... they are quite capable of killing a human being. Easily.

sid

Nov. 25, 2005, 09:16 AM

As far as the mention of a "double standard" re: mares v. stallions.

Sure there are rank mares. There are also rank geldings.

Much of the discussion (rightfully so) is about quality of life issues. Isn't that what we want for our animals?

Even a "difficult" mare or gelding can live in socialized bands that horses mentally need. And the sexes can intermingle safely...(in most cases).

Stallions are hormonally "driven" all the time (unlike mares when in periodic, seasonal estrus). They are hardwired to 1) aggressively protect their territory when they perceive a threat 2) fight (other stallions to acquire and maintain a harem of mares and 3) breed those mares (procreate). That's a volatile combination of behaviors that must be minimized with good management by astute horsemen/women.

Additionally, one mare can have, on the high side, 10-12 foals in her lifetime. One stallion can have hundreds, if not thousands.

A hysterectomy or ovarectamy for a mare is major surgery, with higher risk (and much higher economic cost). While castration is not without risk, it is a relatively simply, minimally-invasive procedure.

Weighing out all these considerations, regardless of the "ethical issue", a double standard does not exist really (IMO).

Laurierace

Nov. 25, 2005, 09:16 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by royal1:
Laurie,
I would book to Brad Pitt for a September baby, would need time to recup from the previous year's Steve Yzerman baby! lol.

Just don't tell him you are on the pill. I don't know why it didn't take, guess we will try again next cycle!

sid

Nov. 25, 2005, 09:19 AM

Maybe an Ovuplant might help... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

moonatic

Nov. 25, 2005, 09:29 AM

Albion

Nov. 25, 2005, 10:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> How many of those people here who have said that it is morally wrong to leave a stallion un-castrated, would say it's ok to leave a mare intact?

I find that there seems to be a double standard for stallions and mares. It's ok to leave a mare intact but not a stallion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As has already been noted, spaying of any sort is a much more invasive procedure & is more major a surgery. It's a bigger procedure in dogs, and think about how much bigger most mares are than dogs!

Also, I've read cases where a mare was spayed to relieve bad symptoms of heat & still had problems - except now they are just very unpredictable.

Dr. Doolittle

Nov. 25, 2005, 10:27 AM

moonatic--priceless!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Inyureye

Nov. 25, 2005, 10:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The reasons are legion. Including safety of the human handler, the safety of the animal - but most importantly - they are our responsibility.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its morally unethical to keep animals entire except for responsible breeding purposes.

Phaxxton

Nov. 25, 2005, 10:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I personally believe that all eggs and sperm should be removed at birth and only given back in exceptional circumstances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Amen. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I haven't been able to read all of the responses past the first page, but I did want to say that not only do I think it's morally just fine to geld horses (and spay/neuter your other pets), but I think it's the responsible thing to do. We have so many unwanted pets in this world...

If a man is so insecure that he can't stand the thought of a horse being humanely altered, then he's got some serious issues he needs to sort out for himself.

If the husband's got that much of a problem with it, the wife should send him on a golf vacation, have the horse gelded, and have some neuticles put in! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Pixie Dust

Nov. 25, 2005, 10:45 AM

The 3 mares I have had didn't have hormone problems. They were quite happy, and turned out with other mares with no problems.

I have known a few stallions actually spending the summer in the pasture with the mares. Can't imagine this happens much these days (and both were very pony stallions.) But, naturally breeding was the intended purpose of this set up.

TBsRgr8

Nov. 25, 2005, 11:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Shiaway:
While I think it is generally a good idea to geld a horse I would like to ask,

How many of those people here who have said that it is morally wrong to leave a stallion un-castrated, would say it's ok to leave a mare intact?

I find that there seems to be a double standard for stallions and mares. It's ok to leave a mare intact but not a stallion?

I could have turned my stallion (he's now a gelding) out with other geldings fine. He was and still is one of the best mannered horses I've ever known. As a stallion he was very respectful. He is a Lusitano which is an important contributer to his temperment of course.

But because he was a stallion he had to be gelded.

Yet I have known many mares who are dangerous to handle. One I know right now has kicked three people. She tries to kick at any horse across the fence. Another mare I know slams herself against the walls when she is in heat to the point where she continualy injures herself.

But if I had left Sol as a stallion, despite the fact that he never caused any problems as a stallion, you could put him next to anyone, he was well behaved in his stall, no bad habits, never was aggresive etc. etc. everyone in the barn would feel that I was morally wrong to leave him as such because I wasn't going to breed him.

Many times I wish I had not gelded him. Because of his temperment I think he would have been fine even next to another horse out in the paddock like he is today. I don't think his life would have been miserable as a stallion and he wouldn't have been a danger to the barn workers. But the mares I know are more dangerous than he was as a stallion IMO. But it's ok, they're mares. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I had a mare that was constantly hurting herself or others, then YES I would have her spayed. I think the biggest reason that people don't think about having their mares spayed is the cost of the proceedure. Though, I do know of one mare that was spayed upon her second colic surgrey where frequent colics were a direct result of her body's response to the female reproductive hormones. The only other option I would consider for a dangerous mare... if the owner did not want to "deal" with the situation is euthanisia. That opens a whole other can of worms.

Of all the stallions I've handled, I can only think of one that gelding would probably not have changed his personality... or he might have fallen over dead because he was so quiet as a stallion. The sad side is that he still got very little turnout time and was stuck in a stall much of the time w/ no medical reason (eg. prescribed stall rest for injury) behind it.

Alagirl

Nov. 25, 2005, 11:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wonder how all the Danes are going to deal with all those boars..... they are quite capable of killing a human being. Easily. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm...I've been told a story of a vet who went to castrate an older boar...the tranqus did not quiet take and the pig returned the favor... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Besides, the taste of uncut boar is quiet distinked I've been told... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

Maybe that's another reason - if it tastes bad it will not be bought...but in reality, only half the piglets will then be kept....

Alagirl

Nov. 25, 2005, 11:59 AM

Adding here that we had on colt we kept intact till he was about four, he did not get any pep antill after he bowed his tendon and was gelded so he could go out with the mares for rehab...his half brother was gelded as a yearling, and boy was he a PITA to deal with at times, doing the herd stallion thing when you saw another horse out on the trail or two miles away on the other side of the valley...you just couldn't tell wether he was going to blow up or not (he didn't or I'd be dead, I'm sure...) no telling how he'd been as a stallion!!!

Our pets are just misserable when they can't live out their instincts, herding dogs can't herd or hunting dogs couped up all day...I had my female dogs spayed because once my son was born the older one went through hell two month after her heat cycle! False pregnancies...three days or more of constant whining and nesting and killing of stuffed animals...I am quiet sure that she wasn't happy, sure enough non of us humans where!

Renn/aissance

Nov. 25, 2005, 12:05 PM

I should think that it would be morally right to geld horses- as well as neutering other animals such as cats and dogs, for much the same reasons. It allows some control over the breeding population, which means that there are less animals in the world which no one wants or can care for. I think the same procedure should be used on mares as well (though, obviously, the specifics and the organs in question would differ.) We have one extremely hormonal mare in the barn who, even on Regumate and with copper in her water bucket, is completely ruled by her hormones. Because her estrogen cycle is so funky, she can't deal with herself very well and has not only bitten almost everyone in the barn- small children included- but also slammed her owner in the stomach and nearly kicked me in the head within a five minute period. (Thankfully, she missed her owner's ribs and organs and I got out of the way.) Being on medication to control my similarly out-of-whack hormones I can sympathize with the mare and think that it would be better for her if she could have some of that raging estrogen tamed. However, I was told (about ten years ago, though) that such a procedure would be very, very painful for a mare. Have there been advances in the technology that would make it less so? For stallions I support the procedure wholeheartedly for all of the reasons mentioned, including the lifestyle that most stallions lead (and having worked at a breeding farm I've seen the frustration of some otherwise very kind studs) but for mares I would support it only for hormone control in cases such as the mare I mentioned above, who is certainly safe compared to some of the other mares I've heard of. If this mare was mine, I might seriously consider surgical options so that she could deal a little better with herself (and so that we coudl deal a little better with her) but as it happens this mare is booked to be bred next season.

If it were up to me, the same procedures would be used on certain almost-hairless primates of a species with which we're all quite familiar... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif And Sing Mia Song, I wholeheartedly agree with your idea!

bjrudq

Nov. 25, 2005, 12:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I find that there seems to be a double standard for stallions and mares. It's ok to leave a mare intact but not a stallion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

imo, that's becasue the surgery for mares is more invasive and more expensive. if there was a cheap, easy, safe way to spay mares i'd be in favor of spaying most of them too.

as with dogs, this could be something done by or encouraged by breeders. geld ans spay all stock that isn't top notch for breeding, and sell the rest as sport and pleasure horses. or wthhold papares until vet certificate from buyer arrives.

Home Again Farm

Nov. 25, 2005, 12:30 PM

I feel it is morally wrong NOT to geld 99.9% of the male horse population. All my colts are gelded, no matter how nice they may be. A gelding is safer for its humans, it is happier in its life since it can be the soacial animal it was meant to be. The reasons for gelding are nearly endless.

I did not answer the poll because the question was unclear to me.

Also, I believe that if you had posted this in the breeders forum, you'd be getting nearly 100% in favor of gelding, harpies or not. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Edited to add that I have never had an unruly or difficult mare. All of mine have been well behaved and easy whether in season or out. Also, spaying is major surgery unlike gelding. The idea of a boarding barn filled with unbred stallions sends chills down my spine, too. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Trakehners2000

Nov. 25, 2005, 12:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pixie Dust:
What an odd question. I think all animals are happier gelded/neutered. Being ruled by your hormones 24/7 is not exactly fun when you can't act on it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gifExactly~ And, Geldings are generally happier than stallions, they still get to play in herds!

silver

Nov. 25, 2005, 12:45 PM

Denmark is a tiny country, most likely all those male piglets will move across the border, grow up sans testicles and be reimported for the dinner table.

Shiaway

Nov. 25, 2005, 12:57 PM

<but as it happens this mare is booked to be bred next season. >

Nice. Pass those genes on. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<Also, spaying is major surgery unlike gelding. The idea of a boarding barn filled with unbred stallions sends chills down my spine, too.>

I actually used to ride at a barn full of unbred stallions. Of course they were lusitano stallions.

But, I agree, in any other situation it would be kind of scary. In most boarding barns you can't predict who will handle your horse. If I had left Sol as a stallion who knows what he'd be like now. I trusted myself to handle him because my STB gelding was more of a PITA to handle than him and he turned out ok LOL and I'd trust some of the other barn workers to handle him....but not all.

At one place I boarded I showed up to discover a 10 year old boy who had no experience around horses had been given the duty of leading Sol out to the pasture. I didn't say anything but I was rather startled by that.

Sol is very docile, it's true but he's not a lesson horse that you could light a fire under his feet and he'd be fine. He was, at the time, 5 years old he had been gelded less than 6 months even. I think it was only 2 months after he had been gelded. Although he is typically calm and very predictable he is still a horse and he was young and he is energetic. He could spook or who knows what.

I am glad that day he was not a stallion. Even though he always led fine with me and other people even near to mares, if he had just one moment where his hormones took over and the 10 year old boy who was leading him didn't check him on it, he would have learned right away a new bad habit that could have become ugly.

When he was a stallion I always checked him if he nickered at a mare while I was leading him. It didn't take much, I just had to jiggle the lead rope and look at him and he'd back a step or two and that was it. And he only did it once or twice and never again.

But at a boarding place I can't gaurentee I will always be the one to handle him. The place where they let a 10 year old lead him was a very well run place. That was why I was so startled by it. I mean I didn't have him at some place that was poorly managed or anything. It was an expensive, very well run barn with great care and management.

abrant

Nov. 25, 2005, 01:13 PM

My point of view is this. This is the 21st century. This is not "nature". A horse might "naturally" want to be a stallion, but in the 21st century, it's better for them to be a gelding. They're just going to have a less stressful, longer life. They also face less posibility of being "throw away". As with children, we have a responsiblity to do what is best despite what the horse might 'want'. My buddy Gary (my favorite horse <g&gthttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif might 'want' to eat our entire supply of Omelene 200 and NATURALLY he could eat whatever he wanted, but I'm not going to let him eat it because I know what is best for him. He's a horse <g>...

In this same thread, I am all for de-clawing cats. Oh yes, I know, that makes me a terrible person. However, if that means that cat can co-exist more happily with humans and have less chance of being throw away into a ditch or a shelter... then go right ahead. It's a small sacrifice! I don't de-claw mine (because I am a total sucker animal person <g&gthttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - but I wouldn't judge anyone who does.

I always go back in my head to the old phrase. If he's a good stallion, he'll make a great gelding. I've worked in breeding farms for 6 years. I can think of only three of the many stallions I have known whose genetic worth override the sacrifice of a gelding's existance.

Puerto D'Azur (Danish Warmblood, for sale!)
http://www.clearwater-farm.com/html/stallions.htm#Blue

Bearly Hot (Paint, could use more spots, but is AWESOME... I <3ed trying to make him into a dressage horsehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://www.ceoates.com/sires/bearly-hot.html

Sabona (thoroughbred... my buddy!... won almost $900,000).

I can list 20 stallions that would be geldings in a perfect world. They would be happier. Their owner's would be happier. There wouldn't be half-rate offspring out there.

Most heartbreaking would be a horse from my past who I am still in love with. Ugly awkward horse. Poor mover. But SWEET and an absolute joy to be around. He's a stallion. They won't geld him because of his pedigree. He's worth more as a stallion than as a gelding. Has every different kind of stress-related problem (ulcers... leg and hoof problems from constantly pacing, chronically underweight). He's also incredibly aggressive with other horses and savages mares. But they won't geld him. If I could ever afford to buy him he wouldn't get two steps out of the trailer before he was dropped and gelded http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.csammisrun.net/adrienne/trot4.JPG

So, point. It is morally right to geld horses. It is our burden to always do what is best for them.

~Adrienne

Huntertwo

Nov. 25, 2005, 01:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MandyVA:
Someone mentioned their husband getting the human equivalent of gelding. It's actually very different to get a vasectomy than to be castrated. You husband still has his testicles and all the hormones they produce. It is possible to give a vasectomy to cats, dogs, and horses, just like with people. When I interned with a vet in high school, during a cat neutering, the vet showed me how they could just cut the proper tubes and leave the testicles in and the cat could not breed but would still have all his parts.

I asked why they don't just do that and he said because it would still have all the bad behaviors of tom cats--spraying, roaming, etc. So men who have some opposition to their male pets getting castrated do have a middle of the road option--they can be rendered sterile without losing their, uh, masculinity. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

My point is that the comments about castration being ethical because it prevents unwanted breeding are leaving out the fact that you can prevent the breeding without castration. I think it's really the behavior and not the ability to breed that people are concerned about when they neuter their pets or horses. My horse and my cats are all castrated, but behavior was definitely foremost in my mind when I had them neutered, not concerns about them breeding. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL...How true. When Mr.Huntertwo complains that he is now a gelding, I have to explain that at least he has his "kahonnas"..lol

On that note, I still hear it on a weekly basis, 4 years later how he got butchered.. yadda yadda yadda.
If I had known that, I would have had it done to myself. geez

Aptor Hours

Nov. 25, 2005, 04:31 PM

I don't have time to read through all the pages but I am going to assume this topic is a joke...I am right it is a joke isn't it??

Goodyfourshoes!

Nov. 25, 2005, 04:32 PM

edit

TB or not TB?

Nov. 25, 2005, 04:56 PM

Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion. I appreciate that most of you realized I was asking the question just as an abstract (and didn't try to take my head off http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) and certainly NOT suggesting we shouldn't geld horses. Again, I have always had geldings and would not consider owning a stallion for all the reasons mentioned.

Let me address a couple of the arguments that came up, if I may. The double standard about mares is actually what made me think of the topic, since having a mare allows any owner regardless of experience, intelligence or integrity to breed her. This has always frustrated me immensely, especially since I've met more than a few people who refuse to buy geldings because if the horse becomes unrideable, 'you can't use it for anything.' We talk about the number of male horses who are unsuitable for breeding but often don't mention the equal amount of females who aren't extraordinary.

This prompted a cynical part of me to say "Well geez, why is it only the guys that get fixed? If we altered as many mares as geldings then I guarantee we'd have WAY fewer adequate/poor quality horses, less slaughter, and less neglect." Of course, I then recognized the higher risks of spaying (I don't want to mention expense as a criteria, because like most of you I agree that fixing an animal is the RESPONSIBLE thing to do, whether or not it's morally RIGHT, and if that's the basis of one's argument than price shouldn't conceivably be considered at all), which are indeed of great concern, but I wonder which would be the greater evil: neglect and slaughter of thousands and thousands of animals due to irresponsible breeding, or the invasive surgery of spaying most mares.

Now, considering this perspective, if one re-evaluates the double standard, it would seem quite unfair to only geld males if the main purpose was to prevent surplus breeding. Because of the way we keep our horses, however (eg boarding barns, domestic situations), behavior alteration comes in to play. That most horse owners should not own stallions, I think we can all agree. Partially because I can't imagine the carnage involved, and also because everyone who had a stallion would inevitably want to breed it (what IS our obsession with this?) and we have plenty of examples in the human race as to why unregulated breeding is folly. Yet we still allow any old joe to have a mare, which leads back to the double standard.

As to the behavioral issues, this is the most compelling argument, but from an ethics viewpoint, consider this: is it 'right' for us to impose castration on half of an entire species because WE are the ones not equipped to deal with it otherwise?

In today's circumstances, it's not a question of whether we SHOULD do it: we really have no choice because of all the aforementioned issues of danger, isolation, hormones, etc. Because of how we have shaped the horse world over time and eliminated multisex herds and natural breeding, bachelor stallion groups, grazing lands, etc, it's cruel to the horses to keep them from partaking in their natural instincts in the ways we CAN provide for them - group turnout, large pastures, warm and comfy stalls or shelter, etc. As I said before, castration of males is absolutely responsible and necessary. But is it okay for us to do this? And what about females?

In conclusion, this wasn't meant to be a realistic debate about the benefits of keeping all horses entire: we all know that's just not plausible. I just wanted to explore the reasoning behind these circumstances, how it relates to the other sex, and ponder the morality. For those who would say "this is how it IS, so what's the point?" I would just remind you that it's never bad to question the Why's of life, and as horse and animal owners/lovers we need to be responsible for understanding the reasoning and morality of our methods, and continually evaluate our decisions and motives as the caretakers and custodians of these creatures.

Afterall, with so much that they give to us, the occasional reflections of "why are we doing this?" "is this the best way?" and "is this ethical?" are the very least we can do to ensure their happiness, safety and quality of life.

Shiaway

Nov. 25, 2005, 05:00 PM

Goodfourshoes,

It's not just the stallion hormones that makes a horse behave like that. There are many stallions, especially the iberian who are bred to be more easy to handle, who don't act like that because they are handled correctly. I have worked with many Lusitano stallions and only two were as aggresive as you described and they were gelded.

But just as with any horse you have to handle them correctly. They need to be worked every day. They need their mind stimulated. I'm just saying this because I don't think you can blame all of that horse's problems on his sex, especially after you described how his owners didn't seem to care much for him.

I knew an Arabian stallion that was incredibly smart, very good bloodlines. Could have been a very good horse. But he was ruined when he came to us. He had a horrible attitude. Pin his ears at you, try to bite you. Tried to attack me once (rearing with front legs flying at me). Tried to bite me while I was riding him.

Of course he was gelded first thing. But after 14 years of being spoiled like that, he would always be that way until someone who really knew what they were doing could retrain him. And the tragedy was that anyone who really knew what they were doing knew enough to stay far away from him.

But I would bet that if he had been handled correctly from the beginning he would have been worht a lot of money and a very well mannard horse. You could see he had the conformation and he was unflapable. Nothing scared him. Very mellow. He just was smart and knew he could get away with anything. And he had been doing that for 14 years.

EponaRoan

Nov. 25, 2005, 05:23 PM

Geld early, geld often. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The world would be a much better place with a whole lot less breeding - of ANYTHING - going on.

And I wish it was as easy to spay a mare as it is to spay a bitch or a queen. Fortunately it's easier to keep a mare away from a stallion than it is to keep every intact male dog in the neighborhood from coming to call on a bitch in heat or every tom to come calling on a queen.

HorseProtectionLeague

Nov. 25, 2005, 06:31 PM

Oopsie, I clicked No instead of Yes- I thought the question was is it WRONG not is it RIGHT- naptime for me now so I can think straight!

I have met exactly one unaltered male horse who was not only built well enough and athletic enough to breed gentle, kind, and never distracted by mares- I purchased a breeding to him to be used in the future to my equally gentle mare. I have met several unaltered mares who were good enough to breed, athletic, gentle, and kind. However, I would agree- most horses seem more content gelded, and if spaying was cheaper and didn't take so much value off of a mare, then it would be wonderful and more people would do it. That eliminates the moody mare- "Hey she's grumpy and I don't want to ride her, why not breed her!" that I see so often.

chaltagor

Nov. 25, 2005, 07:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TB or not TB?:
As to the behavioral issues, this is the most compelling argument, but from an ethics viewpoint, consider this: is it 'right' for us to impose castration on half of an entire species because WE are the ones not equipped to deal with it otherwise?

Afterall, with so much that they give to us, the occasional reflections of "why are we doing this?" "is this the best way?" and "is this ethical?" are the very least we can do to ensure their happiness, safety and quality of life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I know exactly what you're thinking. I think this way about riding my horse. Sometimes I feel a little uneasy when I get on her and make her do things she might not want to do. And I'm not one of those people that think animals think like humans do, or believe in animal "communicators."

You've got to remember horses have been genetically engineered by humans for thousands of years to be of service. It becomes clearer when you think about cars and their different designs. Horses have been constructed by humans just like autos have been, only using flesh and DNA instead of metal. (And I won't say which ones I compare to Yugos.)

I think it would be morally wrong *not* use them as they were intended - look at what happens when certain dog breeds are not used for their designed purpose, like the Border collie or the Jack Russel. Some of these dogs go nuts without a job to do, and it is akin to cruelty.

That is an extreme example, but I've found my horse (a light draft) is much happier when I've interacted with her, helped her to know what humans expect of her and given her a job. (For a while her only job was picking up her feet when I asked.) That's how she was designed.

Castration is the only way many of these horses can be part of the life they were designed for. And many mares get hormonal supplements to enable them to do their jobs too. No, I don't think it's morally wrong.

CuriosoJorge

Nov. 25, 2005, 07:13 PM

"He is a Lusitano which is an important contributer to his temperment of course. (later post) Of course they were lusitano stallions."

Shiaway, honey, there are nice and evil stallions of every breed. I don't for a minute buy your theory that breed has anything to do with it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HorseProtectionLeague

Nov. 25, 2005, 07:24 PM

Re: Curiouso's signature... This little girl must be in the .1%

http://community.webshots.com/photo/502113372/502118328vOyUkX

Don't want to hijack the thread, just to point out the incongruities between the post and signature. "I don't for a minute buy your theory that breed has anything to do with it." Well... then how does what breed you ride have to do with your sanity, if it doesn't even affect the sanity of stallions of that breed?

By the way... stallion mentioned earlier as only gentle, calm, undistracted, trainable stallion I've known? Also an Arab.

Drive NJ

Nov. 25, 2005, 08:01 PM

Well... for the guys who can't stand an animal who's been "unmanned" there is a "cure".

Neuticles http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

http://www.neuticles.com/index1.html

"Over 100,000 caring pet owners Worldwide have selected Neuticles as a safe, practical and inexpensive option when neutering.

Neuticles allowing your pet to retain his natural look, self esteem and aids in the trauma associated with neutering."

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Goodyfourshoes!

Nov. 25, 2005, 09:05 PM

edit

Jumphigh83

Nov. 25, 2005, 09:27 PM

Amen Goody4shoes...they keep them entire to validate THEMSELVES..nothing to do with the happiness or the lack thereof of the horses. Just because you drive a big truck doesnt mean you have a big ummm...stick. Sometimes it is compensation for having such a little stick...hmmmmmm http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

xegeba

Nov. 25, 2005, 09:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">s to the behavioral issues, this is the most compelling argument, but from an ethics viewpoint, consider this: is it 'right' for us to impose castration on half of an entire species because WE are the ones not equipped to deal with it otherwise? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Deal with WHAT otherwise? You really should overcome your fear and post this topic with the breeders. Consider this... what if the IRS decided that they were not going to allow any writeoffs for breeding...

TB or not TB?

Nov. 25, 2005, 11:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xegeba:
Deal with WHAT otherwise? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_RED"><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TB or not TB?:
all the aforementioned issues of danger, isolation, hormones, etc </div></BLOCKQUOTE></span>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xegeba:
You really should overcome your fear and post this topic with the breeders. Consider this... what if the IRS decided that they were not going to allow any writeoffs for breeding... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have almost no idea what this means. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Not trying to be impolite, I just don't understand the relevance to the topic. The comment regarding the breeding forum was said tongue-in-cheek, as signified by the emoticon with the embarrased expression and surreptitious glancing about. Anyhoo, as I've said before, this was a merely abstract and philosophical question, not an approach to horse ownership or breeding. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

As to the IRS, I think an attempt to stop people from reproducing would be ill-received, as the American public tends to look favorably on children. Anyway, if they're going to head in that direction, it would be far more effective to start charging people to keep their offspring; with a mere $250 per child, we could solve the national budget problem, end the energy crisis, and ensure that future generations won't be prevented from riding due to overcrowding. Maybe it would help if we legalized the castration of men? Afterall, there are only a handful of enough quality to breed, and the rest would have to be kept in isolation; they wouldn't undersand their urges and would be denied the freedoms of socialization because of their aggressive behavior. Why, it would be cruel NOT to neuter them. Plus, if we implanted them with Neuticles, they'd never know the difference http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

--------For those who lack a sense of humor, that last paragraph was a joke------

xegeba

Nov. 25, 2005, 11:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">s to the IRS, I think an attempt to stop people from reproducing would be ill-received, as the American public tends to look favorably on hildren </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh. So what is your solution for world peace?

CuriosoJorge

Nov. 26, 2005, 04:19 AM

HPL, my signature is a very tongue in cheek comment on another thread. I'm sorry you missed the joke. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

amc2

Nov. 26, 2005, 04:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I had a male dog who I rescued. He was intact. After he was neutered, it was an overnight change, he never peed/marked in the house, never chewed and would lay on the couch all day long. Neutering calmed him down as he wasn't fretting all the time (at no fault of his own). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey!!!! this sounds like the current Mr AMC2 http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif except he up to this point has continued to pull the legs crossed, are you KIDDING routine.... he is displaying all of the above indicators of gelding......

drives me crazy though when men do that- ohhh sorry you have to go into a doctors office- 5 min procedure with a local, 2 stitches, then a bag of frozen peas for a few hours, vs women major surgery, general anestetic, irreverseable.....arrrghhhh men....

Appassionato

Nov. 26, 2005, 05:41 AM

I find it less a decision made on morals, and one made on personal responsibility. It would be a lot of trouble to spay a mare...but I personally could understand the argument in doing it. I know far too many people that think they have some shot in the dark bloodline....problem is, they breed animals that not only did they not intend to keep, but no one will buy. But's that's all just my opinion.

Jumphigh83

Nov. 26, 2005, 06:19 AM

It is the rare mare that is dangerous. I believe stallions in the wrong hands are dangerous.

WhiteCamry

Nov. 26, 2005, 06:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Phaxxton:

If the husband's got that much of a problem with it, the wife should send him on a golf vacation, have the horse gelded, and have some neuticles put in! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

However, he may suspect something when he finds [ cough!] two balls missing from [ahem!] his bag.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Appassionato

Nov. 26, 2005, 06:33 AM

Jumphigh, I've often thought you should have to pass a test just to own a stud. Many are definately in the wrong hands! Agreed! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Home Again Farm

Nov. 26, 2005, 08:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now, considering this perspective, if one re-evaluates the double standard, it would seem quite unfair to only geld males if the main purpose was to prevent surplus breeding.

As to the behavioral issues, this is the most compelling argument, but from an ethics viewpoint, consider this: is it 'right' for us to impose castration on half of an entire species because WE are the ones not equipped to deal with it otherwise?

Because of how we have shaped the horse world over time and eliminated multisex herds and natural breeding, bachelor stallion groups, grazing lands, etc, it's cruel to the horses to keep them from partaking in their natural instincts in the ways we CAN provide for them - group turnout, large pastures, warm and comfy stalls or shelter, etc. As I said before, castration of males is absolutely responsible and necessary. But is it okay for us to do this? And what about females? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that most colts are gelded, not so much to curb surplus breeding, but rather to give the horse a more normal (not isolated) life. I believe that is ethically "right" to give any animal the best shot at as normal, unfrustrated and safe (long term home) as is humanly possible.

I believe you have answered you own query above. Is it okay to geld? Of course it is, because it is the kinder and more humane alternative, in 99.9% of cases. That it is also the safer altenative matters less to me than it being the more humane alternative.

As I stated above, I geld every single on of my colts at an early age, because I believe that they will live happier, more productive lives when they leave my farm when gelded. Very few people are equipped to handle a stallion and to make the correct choices in breeding one. I eliminate a new owner's choice because I feel it is best for the horse.

I believe that most mares can live quite happy, productive lives without being altered. Some may be bred unwisely, but most of the people I see who dip into breeding are quickly brought to reality and their addiction is short lived.

I agree that surplus horses remains a problem, but I doubt that spaying mares will ever catch on for all the reasons mentioned in previous posts.

And curious george, I agree entirely with you — a stallion that is well behaved has much more to do with his handling than his bloodlines. Lusitanos do not have a corner on the manners department. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ghazzu

Nov. 26, 2005, 08:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HorseProtectionLeague:

Don't want to hijack the thread, just to point out the incongruities between the post and signature. "I don't for a minute buy your theory that breed has anything to do with it." Well... then how does what breed you ride have to do with your sanity, if it doesn't even affect the sanity of stallions of that breed?

By the way... stallion mentioned earlier as only gentle, calm, undistracted, trainable stallion I've known? Also an Arab. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because people are weird.
And there seem to be a signficantly high percentage of weirdos attracted to the Arab as a breed.
Trust me on this. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
She's *right*.

And, yes, I've known a good number of very tractable Arab stallions.

TB or not TB?

Nov. 26, 2005, 10:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xegeba:
Oh. So what is your solution for world peace? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This one's a no brainer - put women in charge. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

TBsRgr8

Nov. 26, 2005, 11:38 AM

One of the other options that a mare owner would have should the mare need a long lay-off period (but still okay to carry a foal through gestation) and the mare not being of genetic quality to reproduce, would be to lease out the mare as an embryo-transfer recipient. This could work out as a good trade for somebody who owned a quality mare that is not retired from competition (mare would miss minimal showing/ training time) and the owner of the recipient mare would be able to recover some of the costs for the mare's basic care while she is carrying/ nursing the other mare's offspring. I haven't seen any evidence of there being technology for a stallion to produce/ transfer/ nurture the genetic material of another stallion.

jetsmom

Nov. 26, 2005, 11:48 AM

TB or not TB- Re putting women in charge to obtain world peace...

There might not be any wars, but every 28 days, there would be some very INTENSE negotiations!!!

Flying Hearts

Nov. 26, 2005, 04:16 PM

First, let me start off by saying I am NOT against gelding horses! And also that inexperienced horse people shouldn't own stallions. But I just want to present a different point of view. I own a 1 1/2 year old stallion. I don't really plan on breeding him, but I also don't really plan on gelding him unless I begin to feel that he is a danger to me or others. I keep him at home, if he was at a boarding stable he would have probably been gelding a LONG time ago. He is very quiet and laid back and easy to handle, hopefully he will stay that way.
I think the idea that ALL horses should be gelded other than exceptional horses isn't fair though. Think about why most stallions have mental problems. They are forced to live in a stall, which is *extremely* unnatural for a horse, and aren't generally turned out with others, which is also bound to drive a stallion crazy. How would you like to be completely isolated from other humans except for when it was time to...you know. Wouldn't you be a tad bit insane as well??? Again, I'm not saying that horses should not be gelded. Just that I know it is possible for *some* stallions to lead virtually the same life they would lead as geldings. I think giving them a more natural lifestyle (outside 24/7, or at least a ton of turnout, and geldings or prego mares as buddies) would help their behaviour immensely. I think it would only help if they were raised this way, I'm not saying put a 15 year old stallion who is used to being isolated in a field with 3 other geldings. Anyway, just my point of view here...

Frank B

Nov. 27, 2005, 06:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">might not be any wars </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
PMS coupled with nuclear weapons? Get serious!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

CSSporthorses

Nov. 27, 2005, 06:29 AM

Clients of my dogs say the same thing quite often. The "man" of the house wants a male dog, has no intentions of breeding, but will not castrate it ... Its truely a male thing, most women will not hesitate in neutering or spaying their animals. When it comes to my colts, the minute they have dropped 2, they are in for castration, even if still @ momma's side. If one is hiding up there, I wait till weaning, have a full vet exam, and will go whatever route necessary to have the jewels removed.

sid

Nov. 27, 2005, 08:18 AM

Flying Hearts...if your youngster will not be used for breeding, what is the purpose of not gelding him?

Will he ALWAYS be able to live in the situation you describe?

He's still only a baby. It's winter when a male horse's hormones are at their lowest. You may well change your mind about this when his hormones kick in some fine spring day when he's older and more sexually mature... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

One thing to remember, too. Once a stallion starts exhibiting "stallion behavior" there is no guarantee that gelding the horse will eliminate the behavior completely in some adult individuals.

xegeba

Nov. 27, 2005, 02:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">PMS coupled with nuclear weapons? Get serious!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Frank...imagine a world where all males are eunuchs. Who needs WMD's when scissors are so easy to come by?

Alagirl

Nov. 27, 2005, 06:01 PM

I just wante dto add on the subject to the SRS and circus horses that are all male...

There are no mares. Not any (that's one major flaw in the Farley books about *The Black* when they get the grey mare out of the circus...).

And the vaulting groups prefer geldings...

It seems that the exclusion of females has a subduing effect on the guys.

philosoraptor

Nov. 27, 2005, 06:36 PM

The reason livestock castrations are objectionable is not because we're doing something bad by making a male into a "neuter".... it's HOW they do it!

Sometimes it's just rubber bands around the genetalia until they slowly die off on their own.

Sometimes they cut it off (not a vet!) with no anaestesia.

The root of the problem is that many farmers see livestock as having not more rights or feelings than corn stalks or tomato plants. Animals raised for human consumption are treated horribly, have no legal rights, and can suffer unmercifly.

xegeba

Nov. 27, 2005, 10:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xegeba:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">he reason livestock castrations are objectionable is not because we're doing something bad by making a male into a "neuter".... it's HOW they do it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thank God I'm not a human baby boy. Tried to debate circumcision with my Jewish OB/GYN. there is no foreskin in my male progeny My male progeny have no foreskin? My male progeny had their foreskin removed? the poor little guys had their foreskin surgically altered/ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Iron Horse Farm

Nov. 27, 2005, 10:43 PM

No one seems to have looked at this from the veterinary standpoint. Testicular, prostate and penile cancers are all hormone fed. Take away the hormones and you lower the risks. Your gelding is not going to die of testicular cancer because he has none. You virtually eliminate these cancers when you geld young. I would much rather have a riding gelding that lives to be 20+ years than a riding (non breeding) stallion that dies of prostate cancer at age 10.

Holly
http://www.ironhorsefrm.com

Ghazzu

Nov. 28, 2005, 06:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Iron Horse Farm:
I would much rather have a riding gelding that lives to be 20+ years than a riding (non breeding) stallion that dies of prostate cancer at age 10.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many stallions do you know of who have died of prostate or testicular cancers?

ExRacer

Nov. 28, 2005, 06:49 AM

I think reproductive health is something to at least consider. I mean, I have my dogs spayed and neutered because I don't want to contribute to the problem of overpopulation/homeless pets, but it's also good for their health. I admit I've met very few stallions, so I don't know how common prostate/testicular cancer is among them... but the same could be said for dogs (most of the dogs I'm around are fixed, so I don't know many that have had ovarian cancer).

Again, this is one topic I know nothing about when it comes to horses. I've had two horses in my lifetime: a mare and a gelding (who was gelded far before I got him).

carolprudm

Nov. 28, 2005, 08:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MayS:
The reason livestock castrations are objectionable is not because we're doing something bad by making a male into a "neuter".... it's HOW they do it!

Sometimes it's just rubber bands around the genetalia until they slowly die off on their own.

Sometimes they cut it off (not a vet!) with no anaestesia.

The root of the problem is that many farmers see livestock as having not more rights or feelings than corn stalks or tomato plants. Animals raised for human consumption are treated horribly, have no legal rights, and can suffer unmercifly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Banding usually produces a quick "OUCH" then it's forgotten. However, while it is not especially painfull if done correctly it is easy to mess up. You have to get the band in the right place.
And if you think animals raised for human consumption suffer unmercifully I invite you to come see my sheep and goats. I'll be taking a buckling to the butcher as soon as I make space in the freezer.
I agree that surgical castration without anaesthesia is cruel.

Shodan VIII

Aug. 3, 2006, 03:29 PM

What an odd question. I think all animals are happier gelded/neutered. Being ruled by your hormones 24/7 is not exactly fun when you can't act on it.

Humans are (biologically speaking) animals. i'm an entire and I'm perfectly happy ;).

philosoraptor

Aug. 3, 2006, 03:39 PM

I think it's morally wrong to NOT to geld all male horses, except for a few top-quality breeding stallions owned by responsible people.

Until the bad breeders stop cranking out crummy / grade horses in quantity, I feel there's an overpopulation of so-so to poor quality horses. Not that every individual horse is a bad horse, but that he could've been so much more sound, athletic, and healthy had his breeder not be an idiot. In the end it's the babies who suffer when the not-so-stellar stallion was bred to every mare in town.

Coup De Des

Aug. 3, 2006, 07:57 PM

HOLY THREAD REVIVAL BATMAN!

CanterQueen

Aug. 3, 2006, 08:00 PM

Not only is it morally ok to geld horses, I think it should be legal to geld annoying boyfriends and husbands.

No, no, no. They should be fitted with shock collars at birth. . . .I can hear it now:

Honey, I'm going out with the boys [shock}.
Honey, I'm going out [shock]
Honey, I'm staying home . . . :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

snowpony

Aug. 3, 2006, 08:07 PM

I just don't know if they'd pick to be that way if they had a choice.

Welllll, given the choice, our horses would probably almost all (there are always those exceptions!) be roaming around unlimited acreage interacting with other equines and never have another bit in their mouth or saddle on their back!

I do not think most other animals have the psychological repercussions of losing their gametes that humans would. Humans are highly sexualized animals - we copulate for emotional reasons and not just reproduction... sex is a much much bigger part of human emotional life than that of most other mammals. Cats, horses and other creatures who only copulate a few times a year normally, and lack the complex analysis that humans perform on our own egos, do not sit around agonizing about what it means to be a gelding or a spayee.

catknsn

Aug. 3, 2006, 08:23 PM

Obviously, it is possible to have a nice stallion; most of us just don't have the skills.

Sure it's possible and I've met many nice stallions who have manners. But why make a horse you will never breed suffer with a sex drive for 30 years when it's so easy to fix?

Geldings are more marketable to a wider range of riders. Many barns charge extra for stallions. There really is no reason whatsoever not to geld a colt that is not stallion quality.

The OP's husband is anthropomorphizing in the worst way.

Phaxxton

Aug. 3, 2006, 08:29 PM

No, no, no. They should be fitted with shock collars at birth. . . .I can hear it now:

Honey, I'm going out with the boys [shock}.
Honey, I'm going out [shock]
Honey, I'm staying home . . . :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

No, No, No! They'll use it against us!

"Honey, I'm going to the barn..." :uhoh:

:lol::lol:

Ghazzu

Aug. 3, 2006, 08:42 PM

so the Danes feel it's morally uncool to castrate them, but acceptable to *eat* them?
okay...:eek::D

LetsRide

Aug. 3, 2006, 08:46 PM

Amchara

Aug. 3, 2006, 09:01 PM

My mare is perfectly fine when in heat. Her demeanor only changes when she is around other, semi familiar horses and isn't being "controlled" by a human. If she is out in the barn yard and able to roam, she might wander up to a gelding and scream at him. She will also boss her fellow roaming mare friends around. If you are in any way handling her she pretty much shuts up. I tied her to the hitch rail and went to get the trailer ready and she was screaming for anything to come and flirt with her. I took her to camp and she did the same thing. If I stood next to her she would shut up.

I think it would be hard to train a stallion like this, but certainly possible. Every horse should have the basic knowledge of when they need to act professional and when they are on there own recreational time (sure they don't call them that, but a lot of horses process it like that).

I once heard some trainer talking about the different genders of horses, and the time equivalents to get a point across. He said that where it would take geldings one hour to learn something, it would take a mare 15, and and stallion 50. That is not set in stone and is probably not the most accurate, but it does leave something to think about. I am just quoting it half directly, don't flame me!

Penthilisea

Aug. 3, 2006, 09:38 PM

My two cents? A neutered male horse will have a better quality of life then an uneutered one. A stallion in this day and age will nromally lead a very restricted social life, and if not allowed to breed have to deal with some sexual frustration. Sounds kind of silly right now to me too, but geldings can socialize with their peers which is SO crucial to herd animals- touching and being around others.

TB or not TB?

Aug. 3, 2006, 09:46 PM

HOLY THREAD REVIVAL BATMAN!

You can say that again... :eek::eek::eek: This thread is from last November.

Shodan VIII

Aug. 3, 2006, 11:00 PM

Welllll, given the choice, our horses would probably almost all (there are always those exceptions!) be roaming around unlimited acreage interacting with other equines and never have another bit in their mouth or saddle on their back!

I do not think most other animals have the psychological repercussions of losing their gametes that humans would. Humans are highly sexualized animals - we copulate for emotional reasons and not just reproduction... sex is a much much bigger part of human emotional life than that of most other mammals. Cats, horses and other creatures who only copulate a few times a year normally, and lack the complex analysis that humans perform on our own egos, do not sit around agonizing about what it means to be a gelding or a spayee.

Dolphins and certain "Great Apes" are more like us in their sexual behavior.

didgery

Aug. 4, 2006, 01:22 AM

Gnalli

Aug. 4, 2006, 10:50 AM

Ever since I started reading this topic I have been reminded of an old joke I heard.I did try to restrain myself from posting but my evil twin insisted.So apologies in advance.

Cinderella is now 95 years old.
After a fulfilling life with the now dead prince, she happily sits upon her rocking chair, watching the world go by from her front porch, with her old, retired horse (named Bob) grazing in her front pasture for companionship.

One sunny afternoon out of nowhere, appeared her fairy godmother. Cinderella said, "Fairy Godmother, what are you doing here after all these years?"

The fairy godmother replied, "Cinderella, you have lived and exemplary life since I last saw you. Is there anything for which your heart still yearns?"

Cinderella was taken aback, overjoyed, and after some thoughtful consideration, she uttered her first wish: "The prince was wonderful, but not much of an investor. I'm living hand to mouth on my disability checks, and I wish I were weathy beyond comprehension." Instantly, her rocking chair turned into solid gold.

Cinderella said, "Ooh, thank you, Fairy Godmother." Fairy Godmother replied, "It is the least that I can do. What do you want for your second wish?"

Cinderella looked down at her frail body, and said, "I wish I were young and full of the beauty and youth I once had." At once, her wish became reality, and her beautiful young visage returned. Cinderella felt stirrings inside of herself that had been dormant for years.

And the fairy godmother spoke once more: "You have one more wish; what shall it be?" Cinderella looked at her frightened horse in her pasture and said, "I wish for you to transform Bob, my old horse, into a kind and handsome young man."

Magically, Bob suddenly underwent so fundamental a change in his biological makeup that, when he stood before her, he was a man so beautiful the likes of him neither she nor the world had ever seen.

The fairy godmother said, Congratulations, Cinderella, enjoy your new life." With a blazing shock of bright blue electrictiy, the fairy godmother was gone as suddenly as she appearted.

For a few eerie moments, Bob and Cinderella looked into each other's eyes. Cinderella sat, breathless, gazing at the most beautiful, stunningly perfect man she had ever seen.

Then Bob walked over to Cinderella who sat transfixed in her rocking chair and held her close in his young muscular arms. He leaned in close, blowing her golden hair with his warm breath as he whispered....

"Bet you're sorry you gelded me."

That is HILARIOUS!!!:D :lol:

that being said, no, cutting one is the only responsible thing to do unless you have a truly awesome horse. A good stallion makes a GREAT gelding. They are a danger to the public in general, and very few people are knowledgeable and equipped enough to handle one. Sure, there are some that are very gentle and easy going-I've been lucky in that respect with the ones I have had, but even they got cut eventually.

A woman in TN several years back had her throat ripped out by a horse she had raised and handled daily, shown and the horse was known to be well mannered. It was out of the blue, something set him off, and the next thing anyone knew he had lunged for her, and killed her, that quick.

A stallion, left in the wild, has a purpose that extends past the reproduction issues. In captivity, those purposes do not exist, but the instincts do, therefore it is frustrating to the horse for him to not be able to do was he is hardwired for. That creates a dangerous situation, and the best remedy for that is to determine if he is spectacular and if not, cut him.

17handtb

Aug. 4, 2006, 11:55 AM

Not only do I think it's morally right; I think it's morally NECESSARY, except in the case of stallions that 1) are superior specimens of conformation, temperament, and athletic performance and 2) are in the hands of knowledgeable, responsible breeders who have an existing market for the stallion's progeny.

Obviously, that's wishful thinking, but there are already too many horses being bred, and too many ignorant breeders. Not to mention the fact that it takes a VERY experienced, competent person to handle a stallion. Gelding the majority of male horses is a must to benefit the horses, and the people who handle them. Just wish more would do it, frankly.

vineyridge

Aug. 4, 2006, 04:28 PM

I was going to try and keep my TB yearling entire in case he had racing potential. The day he came up behind me and reared up (to play, I'm sure) and got my hip coming down as I scooted out of the way was the day I scheduled his gelding. He doesn't bite, nip or rear any more. It was a good thing, and I'm the one who is still intact.

RescueGirl75

Aug. 4, 2006, 04:57 PM

You couldn't keep intact stallions together near mares, or sometimes not even near mares. There would be fighting and the more submissive horses would not be able to escape like they can in the wild. If we decide it is morally unethical to geld stallions, it will also have to become unethical to keep horses in fences. We couldn't have it both ways.

VersatileASB

Aug. 4, 2006, 10:00 PM

if someone has already brought this up. I have not read every post here, but in addition to more unwanted/planned for horses in the world; if every colt was not cut - by not gelding we are encouraging people who do not have the best interest of the horse to breed animals which do live up to any breed standards. Just my .02.

(Sorry, it's late and I just took a bunch of meds which are starting to kick in) I hope everyone could follow my logic. :winkgrin:

mst

Aug. 5, 2006, 02:18 AM

hello guys, this is why europe is kicking our butt in sporthorse breeding. We here in the US can breed our 1/2 jackass horse a stallion and breed it to a mare that our farmer uses for plowing and produce nadda. If they are young, well bred, and show promise maybe wait and see but we need to start breeding consistant quality.

As far as safety goes, I had a bad experience when I was like 6. I was in the ss u/s class on my old pony mare when a stallion got loose, jumped into the ring, and chased my pony, who was 17 and heavy. I remember everyone trying to stop it. I did fall off eventually and the stallion was caught.

goeslikestink

Aug. 5, 2006, 03:06 AM

gelding a colt is the right thing to do if not to be bred

keeping stallions can be unsafe - i have a farm near me in the woods
he jumped the 6ft fencing as i walked by on ella an debs was in front had she not looked round and warned me i wold be dead the stallion jumped my mare whilse i was on her back-- as i jumped of i kicked him in the head -- thats how close he was to me i was lucky i didnt get decapitated--
ella poor girl pulled my reains out of hands and tried to run off with him on her back-- debs jumped of graice and ran up the track comming back with both the stallion ( lucky he had a head collar on) and ella

george who owns the stallion was in his yard on the oppersite side of the track he didnt even know until debs brought the stallion back she gave me ella back --

goerge said to debs how on earth did you hold hold him becuase i cant
george is a big bloke debs is medium size woman but she is strong go job to
her answer to him was george you shouldnt turn him out on the other side as the fencing isnt strong enough to keep him in-- which altho 6ft high on track side is 2ft on on stallion side --
and she also said if that was kid comming down the track as its abridleway she would have been killed--

since then he keeps his stallion in yard but it has no papers its a welsh d so he says -- all he does is bred and interbreeds - for coloureds

hes since had the hore gelded but its not handled well no manners

its a responsiable person that gelds a colt
as for showing or stbales and barns not only do you put yourself at risk you put others at risk to-- and also mares
why mares becuase say said stallion got with a mare then its unwanted foal or abortion to the owner that then puts tht mare at risk
both in if to young and got caught by unsung stallion giving birth could kill both mare and foal --
then thats a liable case for the stallion owner via mares owners and they will win as no proper control via the colts onwer

TB or not TB?

Aug. 5, 2006, 03:29 AM

Okay, I'm not sure why this thread came back from thread heaven (or where ever threads go when they die...;)) but let me state once again for the record that I fully support, encourage and recommend gelding male horses that are not of superior quality and type as for breeding purposes. If I had a stallion or purchased one, I would geld him. :yes:

I also understand and recognize the woes of backyard breeders, overpopulation, poor quality animals, and all of that, as do I acknowledge the increased risk in working with stallions and the danger they may pose to oneself and others. I do NOT think people should stop gelding horses. My question was absolutely hypothetical in nature, and it was more aimed to think about what benefit gelding would have to the horse (as opposed solely to us). It was answered by many people that because of the raging hormone factor, gelded horses have a much happier life in domesticated society because they aren't controlled by testosterone. As opposed to stallions who may be isolated from other horses and have the constant instinct to breed yet are unable to do so except in specific circumstances.

I hadn't thought about it like that; it answered my question completely. :) It's hot, and I love a good train wreck as much as the next person, but I don't want to go down in COTH history as "the person who thinks we shouldn't geld horses" :eek: I trust the matter is settled? ;)