Salamander Resort/Spa in Middleburg [Archive]

Glimmerglass

Sep. 21, 2005, 06:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gothedistance:
Not having gone Foxcroft Road for a while ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For all the places I've been and lived in I must say that Foxcroft Road is one of the most lovely roads you can drive on - provided you aren't in a hurry http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif After reaching Foxcroft School reverse your drive and divert off onto Snake Hill Road, past Goodstone Farm and continue the twisting beauty of a narrow road. Glenwood is still active for it's best purpose - steeplechasing!

I digress ...

The Washington Post article cited I assume is the one with comparison of Mrs. Johnson's [I refuse to use "Dr" in reference to her] efforts to start commerce in the area vs. Sandy Lerner in Upperville: see Wash Post 6-22-05 "Two Starts and a Stir" (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/21/AR2005062100655_pf.html)

I haven't seen any feedback any Middleburg meeting this week in any of the local papers nor on the web site for the Future of Middleburg (http://www.futureofmiddleburg.org/). I wouldn't expect the Middleburg Eccentric (http://www.middleburgeccentric.com) to say a single bad word when they finally do cover the vote http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hucklebug

Sep. 21, 2005, 07:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:
I'd be amazed if it didn't go through...she promised a new sewage plant, she'll throw tons of money around and people will worry about sounding racist if they say "NO!".

She knows what's best, just ask her. Pity though, her daughter seems like a nice kid, even though she can't ride worth squat, even with all the money mom's thrown at her training and mounts.

Bye bye Middleburg...wonder when the Coach Stop and Upper Crust will be replaced...they're way too provincial.

All these people who want to live in horse country, take their money, buy the land and then do their damndest to change everything or not allow hunting (e.g. Sandy Lerner).

Oh well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go to hell. Who the heck are you, and you want to put your riding accomplishments on the table for all of us to critique?

Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender

Sep. 21, 2005, 07:15 AM

I am a new resident to M-Burg..and am not there because I can afford it..I'm there because I found a nice, affordable basement apartment, and it cuts my "horsey travel commute" in half.

I do agree that Middleburg has become a very "fru-fru, elitest" community..and it's hard for the average joe to afford to live there.

Now, Mrs. Johnson has said that if the town grants her the permission to do this spa/resort thingy, she will in turn provide a new water treatment facility for the town, and for those of you who live there, the water treatment deal has been a huge issue.

Not to mention the taxes she will pay on the land and spa will equal something like 1/4 of Middleburgs yearly income (forgive me, but I cannot remember the exact numbers) Now, whether or not all this extra dough for the town will be a positive thing remains to be seen.

Trakehner, don't bother insulting someone like Paige..she's a good kid. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

hbm

Sep. 21, 2005, 07:17 AM

I noticed in the WIHS Local Day prize list there is an ad for Salamander Resort & Spa coming to Middleburg Summer 2007.

Anne FS

Sep. 21, 2005, 07:27 AM

Oh, as someone who used to live in VA I am SO sorry to hear about this.

Moving to an area, PRESERVED by foxhunters, and then bragging on her "disdain for the tradition." Oh, yeah, Ms. Lerner's a real winner.

This quote is priceless:

"Middleburg is a funny place," says real estate agent Phillip S. Thomas, whose firm, Thomas & Talbot, handled the sales of Ayrshire Farm to Lerner and Salamander Farm to Johnson. "People here don't take well to having things shoved down their throats."

No s***, Sherlock.

I'm very, very sorry to see Middleburg down the tubes.

Moosh

Sep. 21, 2005, 07:40 AM

I haven't been following the development issues in Loudoun County too terribly closely, so perhaps someone can help me out. For all of you complaining that it's the newcomers ruining Loudoun and turning it into Fairfax, what's your take on the county government's approach to development? It's my understanding that if the county doesn't want to turn into another over-developed suburban nightmare, it can refuse to zone for certain kinds of development. From what I've seen out there lately, the county seems to have no interest in curbing growth.

Again, I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the loss of open space is less of a one person issue and more of a county-wide, governmental issue. I realize it's easier to blame one person than it is to take on the developer/politican juggernaut (going after a man instead of The Man), though. I'm just not sure how Mrs. Johnson will manage single-handedly to destroy All That is Good About Middleburg.

Glimmerglass

Sep. 21, 2005, 07:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Anne FS:
This quote is priceless:

"Middleburg is a funny place," says real estate agent Phillip S. Thomas, whose firm, Thomas & Talbot, handled the sales of Ayrshire Farm to Lerner and Salamander Farm to Johnson. "People here don't take well to having things shoved down their throats."

No s***, Sherlock. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't be too critical of Mr. Thomas as I am fairly sure his family goes way back in the area and have been part of the fox hunting scene. His massive family estate, Ovoka, in Paris was sold in part (1,300 + acres of it) to the Piedmont Environmental Council (PEC) for preservation.

Aside from Ms. Lerner's exceptionally poor choice of buying into fox hunt country while having disdain for hunting, she has rebounded with many positive actions in the area. She saved a manor house that very few could've afforded to restore.

Plenty of other very welathy people have bought into the area and added zero value to the community and likely have detracted from it.

I mean does M'burg really need yet another tourist business and additional traffic headaches? John Kent Cooke didn't really need to convert the lovely former Stephen C. Clark Jr estate into Boxwood Winery (http://www.boxwoodwinery.com/) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Hopefully

Sep. 21, 2005, 08:22 AM

no word yet from Leesburg Today (http://www.leesburg2day.com).... Anyone know what happened at the hearing?

Tackpud

Sep. 21, 2005, 08:40 AM

No Frill - I loved that outside course. I won there every year - just let my pony go and gallop around the course.

Middleburg has fought growth for a number of years - many areas are zoned for private property and can't be split into smaller parcels. The county has tried its best to keep the large estates and the charm of the land. unfortunatly people with money have moved out that way and are using that money to develop the area into what they think it should be, forgetting the area's heritage. I'm not naming any names - this is not just about one person - many people are responsible for wanting to develop the area and benefit from it.

The joy of living in Middleburg was the smallness of the the town. You knew everyone. You knew the families and you knew their histories. You spoke to everyone in the restaurants. You could ride across the land, hunt in open space, and enjoy living in a natural environment without the urbanization that could be found in Fairfax. If you wanted bigger city living, it was only an hour away. The older citizens just want to keep their privacy and be able to live in a manner they grew up in. They want their legacies to have the land they have run for generations. Why should they have to accept that development is for "everyone's good?" Maybe people moving to Middleburg should accept the town for what it has always been and embrace the lifestyle. If they don't like it the way it is - there are other places to live.

Anne FS

Sep. 21, 2005, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't be too critical of Mr. Thomas [/QUOTE]

You're right, I wasn't being critical of Mr. Thomas but my post wasn't clear. I think Mr. Thomas was being sarcastic when he said 'Middleburg is a funny place. People here don't take well to having things shoved down their throats.'

IOW he was commenting on:

"Lerner and Johnson say they were surprised that their pet projects were not greeted with open arms by the locals." THAT'S what drove me nuts. People come in to an area and want to change how OTHERS live and are surprised that the natives don't leap into their arms. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Had I included that quote in my post things would've been clearer. I apologize.

poltroon

Sep. 21, 2005, 09:25 AM

Do what you can to get whatever mitigation you can out of it - like easements for bridle trails, promises of open space, etc.

I know y'all are sick about it, but it beats 2,000 cookie cutter 4,000 sq. ft. McMansions with a cutsey name like "Middleburg Country Estates." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Go to these hearings whenever you can, and remember to vote vote vote at the local level.

The sleepy horsey nowhere town I grew up in in California is now population 250,000. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Trakehner

Sep. 21, 2005, 09:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jodes: Trakehner, don't bother insulting someone like Paige..she's a good kid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did say I'd heard Paige is a good kid...but with all the money her mother spent on horses and lessons...mom couldn't buy her the talent to win the big prize. Doesn't make her a bad kid, just not the rider she wished she was.

Jeeze people, take a pill, you don't have to be an olympic rider to notice someone else isn't one either, no matter how much money has been spent to try and buy it.

BarnField

Sep. 21, 2005, 09:52 AM

Trak,

that is so not relevant to the discussion at hand and frankly, none of our business. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

MHM

Sep. 21, 2005, 10:04 AM

I hate to even dignify this OT digression with a response, but in point of fact, the rider in question has finished in the top ribbons in a bunch of major Grand Prix this year. She can't be riding too badly to pull off such frequent good results, regardless of her livestock and resources.

Though as others have said, it's not pertinent to the discussion at hand.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jodes, Aefvue Farms Bartender

Sep. 21, 2005, 10:07 AM

anywho...back to a conversation about Middleburg...

Hucklebug

Sep. 21, 2005, 10:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jodes: Trakehner, don't bother insulting someone like Paige..she's a good kid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did say I'd heard Paige is a good kid...but with all the money her mother spent on horses and lessons...mom couldn't buy her the talent to win the big prize. Doesn't make her a bad kid, just not the rider she wished she was.

Jeeze people, take a pill, you don't have to be an olympic rider to notice someone else isn't one either, no matter how much money has been spent to try and buy it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

She's also not at the end of her career yet either....so Trakehner, tell us about your riding. I'd REALLY LIKE TO KNOW....and there are a lot of others around here who also would REALLY LIKE TO KNOW, hot stuff.

J Swan

Sep. 21, 2005, 10:26 AM

We're having the same problem in Fauquier as people seeking more affordable housing (although I don't think a 400K McMansion is "affordable housing" move here and then demand the infrastructure and lifestyle of more urban areas.

You know, I don't mind an Inn and Spa in Middleburg. Not really. Because at least it isn't a gazillion McMansions. But the way she went about it, shoving it down people's throats, the threats to demolish old buildings if she didn't get her way - just shows that she does not care about Middleburg culture, traditions, the people who live and die there - none of it.

That's what I have a problem with. Whoosh into a settled old town, insult and denigrate its population, government, traditions and culture, manipulate and threaten the local government, and NOT CARE because in the end, it's all about the money. She did it, developers are doing it, the General Assembly and VDOT endorses it, and the people who suffer the consequences are the farmers, elderly, and disenfranchised.

It's not about foxhunting, horses or elitism and old money. It's about respect and manners. And class. None of which she has.

Enjoy the new treatment plant and your new neighbor. I'm not sure I could.

Rural communities have as much right to exist as their urban counterparts.

Galloway

Sep. 21, 2005, 11:08 AM

Unless I'm mixing things up, I believe the land being used for the spa was originally "saved" from another developer who had planned a large number of homes.
Everyone hailed Ms.Johnson's philanthropy back then, and I think it was a bitter surprise to discover there was still big development plans for the land anyway.

Glimmerglass

Sep. 21, 2005, 11:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Galloway:
Unless I'm mixing things up, I believe the land being used for the spa was originally "saved" from another developer who had planned a large number of homes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not 100% sure about that Galloway myself but I'm pretty sure Mrs. Johnson bought this land (for sale by the estate of the late Amb. Pamala Harriman) (http://www.armfieldmillerripley.com/properties.sold/harriman/index.html) without competition at the time.

Fears at the time were that such a large block of land could be at risk for development, but the land was not eminently at risk when it was acquired. A minor point and clearly a moot issue now.

BarnField

Sep. 21, 2005, 11:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moosh:
... what's your take on the county government's approach to development? It's my understanding that if the county doesn't want to turn into another over-developed suburban nightmare, it can refuse to zone for certain kinds of development. From what I've seen out there lately, the county seems to have no interest in curbing growth.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Moosh, to get back to your question....

From where I stand, the problem with the local gov't is that the Loudoun Board of Supervisors did try to put their foot down, and say enough is enough, we cannot support all this development and huge influx of population the way it is occurring. We need more schools, hospitals, roads, etc. to support the bigger population, but who will pay?

They set tighter zoning restrictions (back in 2001) and promptly got booted out at the next local re-election. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

So then county residents (swayed by the high-dollar ad campaign financed by the developers who had been buying up parcels of Loudoun all along) voted in a new Board which is in the developers pocketbooks. (And Barnfield promptly moved out.) The battle cry for this new group has been something they call "Property Rights." The term sounds honest enough, until you realize that the intent and purport behind it is to allow anyone anywhere to subdivide their land into tiny parcels, thereby building a ton of homes. Because it is their 'constitutional right' to do so. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

B*llsh*t on their 'property rights' - does that mean I have the right to buy up 4 city blocks in Manhattan, tear down the skyscrapers, and setup a pig farming operation in the middle of NYC? I think not.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Galloway

Sep. 21, 2005, 11:47 AM

Getting old, probably just mixed things up.

Anyway, from the Loudoun-Times online,

Salamander Inn debate continues
Staff
09/20/2005

After a public hearing Monday, the Planning Commission decided to continue discussions on the Salamander Inn proposal before voting to approve or deny it. Sheila Johnson’s 120-room resort planned just outside Middleburg's town center needs approval from the Board of Supervisors to permit more than 600 vehicle trips per day and 43 special events per year.

Twelve citizens spoke at the commission's public hearing Monday night, six of whom expressed concerns about the potential traffic the resort will bring to the primarily rural area. The Planning Commission will take up the subject again at its next work session, and focus on the traffic studies conducted for this project. The date for the work session has not been set.

J Swan

Sep. 21, 2005, 12:00 PM

If there is a lesson here, it is that property owners should educate themselves about the tax benefits of conservation easements, PDR's, charitable trusts, and other tax and land saving tools.

kitt3589

Sep. 21, 2005, 12:03 PM

Paige actually rides great, and Trakehner has no idea what he is talking about. Whether it's pertinent to the Middleburg discussion or not, I think the record should be set straight.

xeroxchick

Sep. 21, 2005, 12:54 PM

Here's what happens when counties have zoning laws: The developer sues the county to change it and wins because they have a lot lot lot more money to pay lawyers. County budgets do not include *high* priced lawyers and endless litigation.

Magnolia

Sep. 21, 2005, 01:13 PM

FWIW

I think it is going to be very difficult to keep rural land rural that is one hour from a city with an extremely hot housing market. Short of putting up a fence and saying go away, you will have a tough time preventing By-Right development of land.

It sucks and it is happening everywhere. Asheville NC is a great example. Lovely mountains with hiking and trails. Now the real estate guide is thicker then Charlotte's, full of "mountain estates" and "mountain homes" all peddling an exclusive outdoorsy lifestyle.

Bottom line, people have money, certain places have prestige, people with money want to be in a place with prestige, and if they are spending that much money, they want things to be as they want them to be.

I think there is a saying - "he who has the gold makes the rules...". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

poltroon

Sep. 21, 2005, 01:43 PM

Magnolia is right - so close to the city, you'll be needing to put together the money and think Nature Conservancy and the like to preserve it.

If you want to oppose this project or any other, you really need more than 12 people to show up to the meetings. A packed room really gets peoples' attention.

As for "not winning the big prize", well Meredith Michaels (now Beerbaum) never could quite manage to win the big eq either. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

x-rab

Sep. 21, 2005, 01:49 PM

Just to remind everyone that Virginia operates under the Dillon rule of Government, which means that unless the VA General Assembly (GA)grants a locality the right to do something, they can't. The General Assembly is owned lock, stock and barrel by the developers. Loudoun will be paved because of the action of the current Board of Supervisors and the General Assembly. At one time Fairfax County had a fairly strict building code. The developers didn't like it so they got the GA to pass a law saying that no locality could have a stricter building code than the state one. That change halved the firewall thickness in townhouses. And lets not forget that all those McMansions being built 8 feet apart with plastic siding are fire hazards because if one catches on fire, the heat will cause the siding on the next one, and next one to ignite. No fire rules for single family homes because they are supposed to be far enough apart that they won't ignite each other. Right.

As an aside, there was an article recently in the Post about folks in those new McMansions out in Loudoun being upset because their septic systems were not good enough to allow them to wash clothes every day and shower as frequently as they would like.

Back to Shiela, at one point the deal was to be a new sewage plant and continued right to hunt the property. Don't know if that is still on the table.

LaBonnieBon

Sep. 21, 2005, 02:18 PM

I'm willing to go to the next meeting if I know the date. Anyone else want to go and stand up to not allow Middleburg to have this resort/spa??

Glimmerglass

Sep. 21, 2005, 02:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by poltroon:
Magnolia is right - so close to the city, you'll be needing to put together the money and think Nature Conservancy and the like to preserve it.

If you want to oppose this project or any other, you really need more than 12 people to show up to the meetings. A packed room really gets peoples' attention. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

M'burg and its neighbors have been under pressure for development seemingly forever. Anyone recall Disney and their failed attempt to build their vision of "America" the theme park down the road? It was largely the hunt country big names and deep pockets which killed that project.

What is a bit different with Salamander is that it is a battle from within the confines vs. an approaching attack outside the town. Mrs. Johnson is wealthy, someone who horsey, well connected with organizations which generally kill projects likes this (e.g., the Piedmont Environmental Council), she’s presenting this as a controlled, small site-suited quaint Inn, and has lobbied hard to bring on certain townspeople into supporting it. That's a far cry form Disney who had no friends from the area and everyone was against it.

As for opponents being a mere 6 people standing up - that is vastly untrue. If you look at the Future of Middleburg (http://www.futureofmiddleburg.org) it has over 750 people against the plan and many more who don’t belong to such a group. Although after so many contentious meetings and a strong suggestion that if you are against Sheila you are a racist and the like, people in the area are now basically backing down from being so publicly – and visibly - against the plan.

In many ways a campaign of racial guilt, anti-rich, “Middleburg needs this”, and "those who are against it are controlling snobs" etc type of feeling has worked.

To me I don't understand why a successful but smaller scale - like the Goodstone Inn but times 2 - venture wouldn't work just as well. In the middle of January, elegant or not the rooms will only be partially occupied, M’burg is not the be all of places to be.

Windsor

Sep. 21, 2005, 02:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
Mrs. Johnson is wealthy, someone who horsey, well connected with organizations which generally kill projects likes this (e.g., the Piedmont Environmental Council), she’s presenting this as a controlled, small site-suited quaint Inn, and has lobbied hard to bring on certain townspeople into supporting it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a fairly new member of the Piedmont Environmental Council, I wanted to get their take on the project. However Sheila Johnson may be connected to the PEC, and whatever the Council's past position on Salamander Inn (I should know this, but I don't) the updates on the PEC's home page suggest that the Council does NOT support this project. From http://www.pecva.org:

How Large Is This "Small Country Inn?"
Originally planned at 30-40 rooms, then 58, the scale of the now 120-room Salamander Inn and restaurants, conference and equestrian facilities, and 49 house development plus "other development" is out of proportion with the historic town of Middleburg, and rural southwestern Loudoun. Small country inns dot and enhance the Virginia landscape, but a large conference center and facility and residential development threatens to overwhelm the narrow streets of Middleburg and Rt. 50. Internal County documents (available at pecva.org) show the County's own concern over the reliability of the developer's traffic study. This is a public hearing for all of the County's citizens; it is important that the Planning Commission and County Board know that the County's rural character and rural economy are important to citizens.

What You Can Do

Contact the Planning Commission and Board of Supervisors Now
Email loudounpc@loudoun.gov and bos@loudoun.gov or call the Board's comment line at 703-777-0115.

Attend on September 19
The public hearing will be at 6pm in the Board Room of the Loudoun County Government Center, (1st Floor), 1 Harrison Street, S.E. in Leesburg.

Sign up for Email Alerts
Stay informed about the issues affecting your life
-----------------------
Glimmer, this isn't meant as a contradiction to anything in your post, just as a clarification as to the PEC's stance on this issue.

J Swan

Sep. 21, 2005, 03:10 PM

The Nature Conservancy isn't interested in projects like this anymore. They are more into large scale bioreserves and less into actually conserving land. And fundraising for its own sake has taken over the organization.

Write it off.

PEC/local land trusts are the ones to work with on these issues.

I read that article about the septic system problem in Loudoun too - that's what you get when you build on land that isn't suited for it. The land never should have been built upon; the experimental drainfields are NOT meant to handle that much water, they require a great deal of maintenance, and do not work with the electric goes out or when the ground is wet, covered in snow or ice or frozen. You can't just shower and wash clothes and do the dishes - you have to be very very very frugal and careful with water usage.

But heck - the Loudoun BOS knew that and let those houses be built anyway. Oops.

I HATE THE DILLON RULE. I HATE IT I HATE IT I HATE IT.

Glimmerglass - you have a point about the size of the project. It does seem outlandish and out of scale. There is a place called the Poplar Inn and Spa in Fauquier County which is much smaller scale, less obtrusive, less impact and traffic and the owners managed not to pi** off the entire county. It seems to blend in quite well with local farms.

Glimmerglass

Sep. 21, 2005, 03:15 PM

Windsor, no offense taken http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I don't believe that Salmander and the PEC are mutally in agreement on this project either.

Yet much of the typical very public objection and readying of the troops by the PEC against a project has been muffled.

Flashback: PEC press release 10-22-01 "Winter Wonderland Holiday Ball" & Raffle (http://pecva.org/news/releases/2001mercraffle.asp)

"We thank Sheila and Paige Johnson for their generous gift in support of PEC's community service work to protect the historic and scenic lands, rural economy, natural resources and vital watershed," said Chris Miller, PEC's President. - The Piedmont Environmental Council's "Winter Wonderland Holiday Ball"
At Salamander Farm, The Plains, Virginia

Albion

Sep. 21, 2005, 04:10 PM

It wasn't just the big hunt country names and those deep pockets that squashed the Disney project; they got very big name people like Shelby Foote and James McPherson involved, too. IIRC, that's when it really took off. It stopped being a local quarrel and something on a much larger scale. I think the National Trust was also invovled, wasn't it? Anyways, it wasn't just the locals. It was a LOT of people and a LOT of deep pockets.

Actually, when first approached to throw his support behind the movement, McPherson said something to the effect that the teaching of history was so terrible in this country, let Disney take a crack at it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Edited to add: whoops, GG, I see you do reference this as a more local issue - but I think that's part of the problem with local land/historic preservation issues, they ARE just local. Even when you have big orgs. like the National Trust to drum up the troops, it's usually only for big projects. Wasn't there a pretty good local response to preservation issues in Waterford, VA? I'm hazy on all this, my historic pres classes were too long ago!

Ruby G. Weber

Sep. 21, 2005, 04:14 PM

Ah yes Glimmer, I was wondering if anyone was going to bring Disney into the equation. Yes the big money/landed gentry did defeat Disney back in the 90's with great assistance from the Piedmont Enviromental Council. It was through the efforts of the PEC, and in particular Julian and Sue Scheer that such well know historians as Shelby Foote spoke for preservation and against Disney.

So why haven't we heard from the PEC on this one? Or have we? Well I can only guess but I recall receiving an invitation to the PEC gala a few years ago hosted by Shelia and Paige Johnson at their Salamander Farm.

PortraitPainter

Sep. 21, 2005, 04:41 PM

Had to chime in:

I believe PEC was the organization that first approached Ms. (Dr.) Johnson about buying the property (Homewood?) in the first place. She agreed.

eponacelt

Sep. 21, 2005, 04:50 PM

I will chime in about PEC here. Their gala event at Salamander Farm was well BEFORE Ms. Johnson boought the property she is now planning to develop into a spa. I believe PEC is against the over-development of this property as a resort/spa.

LaBonnieBon

Sep. 21, 2005, 06:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hbm:
I noticed in the WIHS Local Day prize list there is an ad for Salamander Resort & Spa coming to Middleburg Summer 2007. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is used a lot by developers and such... it basically is suppose to make people think it's already approved and therefore you might as well accept it. If it does work (it normally does) there seems to be less friction getting through the PC and BOS.

LaBonnieBon

Sep. 21, 2005, 06:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
Although after so many contentious meetings and a strong suggestion that if you are against Sheila you are a racist and the like, people in the area are now basically backing down from being so publicly – and visibly - against the plan. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please don't throw any darts...

IMHO I cannot stand when people play the racial card. I feel it is just a ploy to get attention and pity in order to eventually get their way. They have seen it work for people time and time again. The public will back down and they will get their way. After all, there is the NAACP, the UNCF (United Negro College Fund), etc. I don't hear any other races complaining about these segregated groups. How do you think it would go over if someone tried to start a "UCCF" (United Caucasian College Fund)? I don't think it would go over very well. People would scream discrimination!!!

I think people as a whole need to stand up regardless of any racial card that is played... well that is if you are not against her due to her race. I certainly am not against her due to her race.

I am an American. A non-hyphenated american. I don't regard Ms. Johnson as any better or lesser of a "race" than American. I do not agree with whoever is playing that racial card - be it her or the press, etc. It is just wrong and people need to stand up for what they belive in... and for a lot on this thread that is to keep Middleburg from 600 vehicle trips a day, 43 special events a year... in other words... Make a stand to keep the Resort/Spa out of Middleburg regardless of whether or not someone tries to call you a racist.

SaddleFitterVA

Sep. 21, 2005, 07:22 PM

Those words "By Right development" are key. Right now, it is still back in A3. That means she could sell out and get approval for A3. 100 or so McMansions, although, not sure how the percs and wells would work out.

I am a member of the Rural Economic Development Council, I attend a LOT of meetings about Loudoun County Zoning, contribute to the ZORC (zoning fixes) and also go the the Board of Supervisor's meetings to speak about zoning issues.

The AR1/AR2 zoning map that was thrown out by the VA Supreme Court has caused a lot of problems. The Inn/Spa was an allowed use under AR1, there were performance standards to be met and a lot of hoops to jump through, but it was an allowed use. It was a mostly approved project and while I am not crazy about development, I think that Salamander Inn should be allowed. I also think that the impact of the Spa will be less than that of a bunch of suburban weenies moving into McMansions.

I am not sure if Sheila Johnson is one of the 49 property owners who decided to "opt in", I am surmising that she did not, but the land will never be "farmland" again. At $30-50K/acre (and up), it is not feasible and there just aren't that many people who are willing to spend the $$$ to support the "ambience" of the country.

I will say that being on a local government board has taught me a lot about governing, compromise and the negotiating between groups who have differing wants and needs.

There is a huge contingent in Loudoun, supported by the developers and several of the supervisors who feel that equestrian activities are a waste of time and land. They are getting the votes on "affordable" housing, even though NOTHING in Western Loudoun is "affordable".

The meetings are public, and advertised in the paper. You just have to read the local paper or check the Loudoun county gov't website for information.

Anyone can speak, and depending on turnout, you will be given 3-5 minutes to speak on your issue.

The current rezoning plan is to go with "Option 1", and for more info onthat, you need to read the newspapers or the gov't website.

Most people, especially horse people, seem to be bored to death if I start to talk zoning intricacies.

The rural economy is NOT just about horses. There are B&Bs, wineries, pick your own farms, cattle and dairy farms and yes, hobby horse farms and stables. There are Alpacas, goats, sheep, The Chili Man, and many, many others. Rural Corporate Retreats.

MANY of the non-developers who bought land in this county, bought it with some rural business endeavor in mind, and the county already has some pretty draconian zoning and performance standards that they have been working to meet. Many places have a "if it isn't prohibited it is ok" zoning stance, Loudoun has the opposite, "if it isn't specifically allowed, it is prohibited".

The wineries, they preserve a lot of open space.

It is NOT all about horse people. It is about the entire community and if you are not actively involved at the local level, you cannot affect what happens.

A lot worse things could be there besides Salamander Inn.

Loudoun is changing and is growing, and it is a question of will it be housing and strip malls or will it remain friendly to rural businesses that also preserve openspace.

Mel

MagicRoseFarm

Sep. 21, 2005, 07:24 PM

Speaking of change,, Do u all realize that morven park in leesburg may be closing down??

SaddleFitterVA

Sep. 21, 2005, 07:35 PM

Morven Park will not be closing down. The trust was originally set up to maintain the house. They equestrian facility is not making enough money to support it, and the trust cannot justify using trust money for purposes it was not intended.

They are looking for (and have some possible candidates) a show management company that could lease and use the facilities for many purposes, so long as it makes money.

Allison Head/Looking Glass Farm posts on here and is on the board for Morven, she knows MUCH more about that than I do.

The land is there, there may not be horse events run there if it continues to be a money losing proposition though. The park will be there though and is not slotted for development.

Mel

sfrider

Sep. 21, 2005, 08:25 PM

My husband and I took a trip to Middleburg this summer to see if it was a possibility in case we ever want to relocate. So from an outsiders fresh perspective, I found it hard to imagine how a 120 room inn and spa could possibly be profitable. Middleburg was hopelessly charming for me as a horsey person, but without a golf course, what will people do?? I would hate to see after a ton of controversy, the inn gets built and then fails.

Uberraschung

Sep. 21, 2005, 08:51 PM

God I've been out of the area so long. This makes me want to barf. I have such great memories of Middleburg. Sigh.

Sheila Johnson has always driven me crazy for only one reason. She is not a real doctor, neither MD or PhD or any other kind of person who has the legitimate right and who has worked like a dog for the title. An honorary doctorate because you donated massive amounts of money to a school does NOT give you the right to call yourself a Dr....God that pisses me off.

Paige is a great kid and always has been. Leave her out of this.

M. O'Connor

Sep. 22, 2005, 05:44 AM

New to the area...bought a small farm in Unison earlier this year, and we haven't moved down there yet from NY (plans are to do so in the spring). Already, our little corner is threatened by development that is forcing us out of Eastern LI (at least Loudoun land isn't $4M per acre yet)...but at least the developers and politicians in VA seem to be honest about their desire to rape and pillage the land--not like the ones in NY who are posing as pro-open space; it's true only insomuch as the open space provides a view for their Mega-McMansion spec houses. Do you notice that there is something worse than a McMansion? Try a super-sized version: here in NY, we used to be able to see the farm next door to us, across some acreage that was in privit (hedge, that is)--now our upstairs caretaker appartment is are eyeball to eyeball with the second floor of an 8500 sq' MegaMcMansion built on two and a half acres, with a pool, a 1200 sq' pool house (permissible accessory structure), a tennis court, and a gated driveway that isn't big enough to accomodate the landscapers that arrive three times per week to tend the grounds. If you think you have it bad now, just wait till you start running out of land...The more they sell, the deeper their pockets get; the more new voters who benefit from their policies arrive, and eventually the truth becomes that there are more of "them" than there are of "us." Hard to see any way to beat that.

Magnolia

Sep. 22, 2005, 09:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In many ways a campaign of racial guilt, anti-rich, “Middleburg needs this”, and "those who are against it are controlling snobs" etc type of feeling has worked. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you racist controlling snobs trying to stop a luxury spa and resort!

I do wonder about the popularity of a spa/resort in that area... I'd think she'd be better off closer to Shenandoah or near the coast, unless it is a day spa type thing catering to DC people. I've only been in the area once, but the scenery is stunning around Shenandoah compared to Middleburg, which is probably pretty boring (but still pretty!) to all but the horsey set. Also, it would seem to me that type of resort would be fairly "internal" in terms of money spending. I think a variety of smaller inns and B&B's would do more for the local economy.

Plus, most of your spa resorts are affiliated with golf courses or some kind of natural amenity - a mountain or a beach or a lake. Hubby golfs while wifey gets a facial.

Magnolia

Sep. 22, 2005, 09:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Middleburg was hopelessly charming for me as a horsey person, but without a golf course, what will people do?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read this after spouting off. She figures out she needs golf to be profitable, buys more land and builds a course which needs additional housing to be profitable, which tears up that nice open riding land.

pinkhorse

Sep. 22, 2005, 09:32 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uberraschung:
Sheila Johnson has always driven me crazy for only one reason. She is not a real doctor, neither MD or PhD or any other kind of person who has the legitimate right and who has worked like a dog for the title. An honorary doctorate because you donated massive amounts of money to a school does NOT give you the right to call yourself a Dr....God that pisses me off.
QUOTE]

I agree - I can't take anything she says without laughing at her for taking herself so seriously. What a bizarre thing to do! I'd think most people would be embarassed to flaunt a non-earned doctorate (as opposed to an honorary, as she has).

Whatever. This is just another story of the United States. The wealthy get what they want, period

Moosh

Sep. 22, 2005, 03:08 PM

Actually, I think this is a case of the wealthier getting what they want and the "merely" wealthy having to settle.

Thanks to those who posted re: zoning laws/realities/etc.... It cleared up quite a bit! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

J Swan

Sep. 22, 2005, 03:09 PM

Wow. I didn't know I was wealthy. I guess I should stop buying my clothes at Wal-Mart.

llt

Sep. 22, 2005, 06:01 PM

I am not from the area, but seeing as Sheila Johnson is a horse person, why is everyone so against her having a little business in Middleburg?

Glimmerglass

Sep. 22, 2005, 09:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by llt:
I am not from the area, but seeing as Sheila Johnson is a horse person, why is everyone so against her having a little business in Middleburg? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"little business" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Frankly I don't think people would take issue with the Salamander Inn project - and there are other existing Salamander ventures like Market Salamander which fit in just fine - if it wasn't so large. The heart of the issue is suitable development which is in keeping with the character and nature of the low-key community as well as having minimal impact on the environment, light traffic disruptions, etc.

The plan went from being a small Inn to now something far more on par with a larger-scale destination resort and/or conference center. Equestrian or not the issue isn't if the owner likes, owns or rides horses. Heck toss a stone anywhere in M'burg and you'll hit a person who is one or more of the three.

One of the recent articles on the grand plans: Virginia Business June 2005 - "Move over, Martha Stewart ..." (http://www.virginiabusiness.com/magazine/yr2005/jun05/100projohnson.shtml)

snip: Johnson, 56, wants to build a $70 million to $80 million, 120-room luxury resort and spa on the outskirts of town. “This will be a real destination resort for Loudoun County,” she promises. “I aspire to excellence and want it to be the best — a five-star resort.” Plans call for two restaurants, banquet facilities, a full-service spa, a conference center, stables and miles of trails for horseback riding.

MHM

Sep. 22, 2005, 09:39 PM

Just out of curiosity, what sort of occupancy rate would a place like this need to be viable? Whatever the rate is, is it reasonable to think that this proposed resort would attract enough business to be successful?

I've only been through the area a few times, so I don't know where the clientele would come from for such an operation.

JustJump

Sep. 23, 2005, 05:00 AM

If she's planning on feeding people at this spa, the food had better be of higher quality than that served up at Salamander Market...maybe Middleburg is still provincial, but SM is no match for what's available at the deli counter at Publix in WPB....

llt

Sep. 23, 2005, 05:45 AM

Sorry Glimmerglass, after reading the Virginia Business article, I see things a little differently. After reading about her fiance being the judge who presided over her divorce, and her plans to make her market into a chain store, I wonder if she will open an outlet mall to ensure the inn remains at full capacity, or maybe a theme park.

SaddleFitterVA

Sep. 23, 2005, 06:04 AM

This is not just about the Inn/Spa.

First off, Loudoun County NEEDS more overnight beds, there are less than 80 B&B beds in the county, not B&Bs, but the number of rooms available for guests.

Second, while the plans are for upscale Spa, I wonder if high vacancy rates will cause business plan changes after a year or two, and it might become a pricey, but do-able for many place to stay during some of the many horse shows.

The profitability of a small B&B is not exactly huge. My guess is that the number of rooms went up because of some hotel/spa industry analysis about profitability.

The bigger issue here boils down to zoning issues, property owner rights, community citizen wants and rights, and the usual resistance to any and all change.

Zoning issues, Loudoun County zoning is already approaching HOA levels of restriction, and that doesn't even get into the current political battles over housing development.

The county has been attempting to make the western half of Loudoun friendly to BUSINESSES that keep open space. Businesses need to make money.

The 15 acre farm is becoming the norm, not the 250 acre farm. We ARE in a major metropolitan area. That is both the curse and blessing. Most of us are here because we work in the DC area, we love the region and like all the things to do...in our case (COTH participants) horse stuff.

One thing, when the BOS are reviewing zoning, development plans and all the other stuff, they listen to EVERYONE. Not just horse people, not just developers, not just the winery owners, not just the organic farmers, not just the pick-your-own-farmers, not just the niche-market producers of some product, not just the lawn companies.

While I might not like everything about the plan, I would STILL rather see a spa than 100 McMansions.

Having had my plans threatened by zoning rules, I know how it feels, and it is awful easy for the peanut gallery to be cavalier about money spent when it is someone else's money. Because obviously, all those someone else's must be rich.

Loudoun should stay business friendly, and I'd like it to stay friendly to something other than Walmart, Target, Home Depot and Costco type chains. Rural businesses have many challenges to meet to co-exist with the residential neighborhoods around them, but if they pack up and leave, the open space they have, will turn into another sea of houses.

Mel

BarnField

Sep. 23, 2005, 07:16 AM

So for those of you saying that the Salamander Resort/Spa needs a nearby golf course in order attract visitors --- here you go!! One big golf course on rural Route 15 with gated McMansions coming right up!

http://www.leesburg2day.com/current.cfm?catid=28&newsid=11120 (http://www.leesburg2day.com/current.cfm?catid=28&newsid=11120)

"... Also on hand was BET founder Sheila Johnson, who is in the process of developing the Salamander Hospitality Resort and Spa just outside Middleburg."

I bet she is delighted!

shade

Sep. 23, 2005, 07:42 AM

very stupid question but why does she want to build this spa?? for the money??? to better Middleburg??

J Swan

Sep. 23, 2005, 08:13 AM

shade-

Money.

Goodbye, Loudoun county.

A. P.

Sep. 23, 2005, 08:24 AM

OK, I'm probably stepping in it here, as I don't live in Middleburg and am not familiar with the proposed Spa/Resort, but honestly, it's not as though they want to put a nuclear power plant, or a Walmart, or a prison facility, or even a housing development in.
And I have a hard time swallowing the comment "The ultimate nveau riche urbanite moved there and decided us hillbillies didn't belong there no more...." - Midleburg has been a very up-scale (though not 'neveau') for quite some time, and I doubt any "hillbillies" have been able to afford to live there in any of our life-times!

llt

Sep. 23, 2005, 08:25 AM

I don't think her motivation can be money - the inn/spa/gourmet chain store will not have the same return on her investment that BET did. And she couldn't possibly need more money!

VirginiaBred

Sep. 23, 2005, 08:35 AM

I personally can't stand the idea of the area being changed, at all. Showing at the racetrack as a little girl and seeing the beautiful farms has always been a treat when we come that way.

If she is so hell bent on building a spa, then why wouldn't she either renovate an old, existing home, or build one in the time era of those that already exist there?

A conference center? I think not. Do you realize what the additional traffic and pollution will do to the area? Roads getting widened, parking lots, etc.

The absolute best is saying no to Sheila, in my opinion.

SaddleFitterVA

Sep. 23, 2005, 08:35 AM

Why does anyone have an idea for something new?

Why do the people who operate a B&B decide to do that? Why do people who grow grapes do that?

Why do wineries have their product?

WHY? Because they have something they hope other people will like and want and enjoy.

Why did I decide to build extra stalls to have boarders?

Yes, most business ventures do want to turn a profit, and most of them don't turn a profit immediately.

I agree with those who think it is pretentious and annoying for her to use the honorary "Dr." title, but in the grand scheme of things, does that really matter?

I think that most people who have never run a business, paying their own taxes, dealing with government, and licenses are absolutely clueless when it comes to how business development works. That would be ANY development, not just housing. They are also pretty clueless about the economies of running a business.

Mel

cloverlone

Sep. 23, 2005, 08:39 AM

A.P. - there really just isn't room for that type of traffic. 15 +/- (hard to remember) years ago they put in the stoplight. THE ONE stoplight and that nearly fried everyone. Truly, it's not the right location for such a resort. YEs, there is plenty of attraction to Middleburg and there is nowhere close to stay other than Leesburg, but the roads just aren't up to the in/out. I'm afraid next we will be hearing of a bypass for Middleburg (then Upperville too) in order to keep up with this size growth. IF or when that happens, I could see this size development having proper access.

Also, there is housing for the not so rich in Middleburg. That is new in the last what, 6 years? Time flies.

Traffic is bad enough on Sat with the tourism and during the week, RT 50 is bumper to bumper at 6 am. They still have not finished building all the houses out there... it's a problem with or without the resort/spa. Imagine how different the county/countryside would be if this corridor ends up like Leesburg/RT 7. Once is starts that direction, there's no stopping it.

g

SaddleFitterVA

Sep. 23, 2005, 08:42 AM

Oh, and for those who don't want it to change, you simply get to do what everyone else does...

BUY THE LAND.

You want no change, you buy it, you pay the taxes on that land, maintain the fields, keep it beautifully weedeated and mown, keep the coops in the fencelines, allow the hunts to come through, run a few cattle, etc.

My neighbors didn't want me to build a horse farm, but I bought the land, it was an allowed use, and I built it.

People don't want change, but change is inevitable, it is mostly trying to find a direction of change that will keep at least some of the character of the region.

Mel

Glimmerglass

Sep. 23, 2005, 08:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
So for those of you saying that the Salamander Resort/Spa needs a nearby golf course in order attract visitors ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The four star Goodstone Inn, which is only a miles and half awa, just off Foxcroft Road has always listed a round of golf at the nearby Stoneleigh Golf & Country Club in Round Hill (http://www.goodstone.com/attractions_details.html#activities) as an activity included in the nightly rate.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Sorry Glimmerglass, after reading the Virginia Business article, I see things a little differently. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure what you are to be sorry about or how you think I see this venture as good or bad.

This spa/inn project wouldn't be the end of the world if it simply occured on a smaller scale. I won't even remark about the proposed architecture which doesn't fit the area IMHO. Stone and slate with a Federal style is more of the Hunt Country experience.

Anyhow ..

If Mrs. Johnson has aspirations of building a lifestyle company I say that is great! This is America and what is wrong if she wants to go to France and have custom bedsheets created and assorted food products, et al? If she wants to make Market Salamander into the next Harry and David or Dean & Deluca, or Trotter's To Go (http://www.charlietrotters.com/togo/), good luck!

My personal objection is simply tied to this Inn being a mammoth (relatively speaking) conference center that suggests it could easily alter the quaint charm of the Village and ruin the lovely, quiet Foxcroft area.

To SaddleFitterVA's comment I agree - "it is awful easy for the peanut gallery to be cavalier about money spent when it is someone else's money." Yet regardless if she is a billionaire (Forbes didn't mention her at all on the 2005 list of the 400 (http://www.forbes.com/400richest/)) or just a person who put together an investment group the end product is the same.

M'burg and the rest of Loudoun should be friendly to business provided each venture makes sense. I'm sure the Village, could easily support a McDonald's .. but is that in keeping with the character of the town? I say no and the same applies to 120-room Inn.

As to why she is doing the whole Inn thing, purportedly she stayed here The Inn at the Round Barn Farm, VT (http://theroundbarn.com/html/grounds/grounds.htm) and thought the concept would work in Virginia too.

LaBonnieBon

Sep. 23, 2005, 08:49 AM

Well it's obviously not to help Middleburg out.... so then what would it be???

Didn't her hubby start BET???

LaBonnieBon

Sep. 23, 2005, 08:52 AM

I'm in the process of getting through PC and BOS in another county to build from the ground up.... and let me tell you, I would NOT even consider doing this if there was no return on investment. I have a hard time thinking Ms Johnson is doing this for people to enjoy.

It's a pain in the a$$ to go thorough all this stuff....it has to be for more money or for the status of having a spa added to her list of accomplishments...

poltroon

Sep. 23, 2005, 09:19 AM

I think SaddleFitterVA is right on and that more of us need to think in a more business-oriented fashion.

I have also witnessed a land-use battle first hand - for a horse facility in a horsey neighborhood - and it was ugly ugly ugly. This was a property that had always had horses - and rusty cars and junk - and the new owner wanted to build a nice facility with a covered arena, and keep fewer horses. Heck, the whole experience was enough to make ME want to just say, forgetaboutit and build low-income condos on the land instead.

This sounds like a big, lovely piece of land. Now figure out the purchase price. No one buys land at those prices unless they will get some sort of return - not necessarily a rapacious one, but a return. Even if Ms. Johnson bought it just for her personal pleasure of looking at green grass, eventually she would have to sell it. And then what?

Building an inn or other project that can pay the expenses of the land is the best way to ensure its security for a long time to come. So if the Salamander Inn is not the project that can do that - what development or use do you propose that will pay the property taxes and the note? Grazing cattle isn't going to do it.

J Swan

Sep. 23, 2005, 09:28 AM

A.P. - I was referring to perceptions.

For example, there was a recent survey of American schoolchildren which showed that kids think that farmers are dirty, poor, uneducated, a couple of other awful things.

Many of you might think of the hoity toity Middleburg, The Plains, Warrenton etc. But to the regular folks who live here, they are merely places to shop where folks know our name, where we can stop and talk with a neighbor on the sidewalk, where it's quiet, where the drugstore makes house calls, all sorts of small town type things. Well maybe small town with a bit more flair - but still a small town. Nothing wrong with wanting to retain as much of that as possible.

I don't begrudge anyone making money with their own business. More power to her. I wish someone had bought the land and put a conservation easement on it. But that isn't going to happen.

If it's a choice between the Inn and McMansions I'll pick the Inn. But I'd like to see a project in keeping with local architecture, landscaping and topography.

I've seen the drawings. This project is just not appropriate for the area, no matter how you look at it. The landscaping is way too modern and formal, there is no traffic plan, too many events planned which will snarl traffic and deprive existing concerns of business due to taffic jams, the architecture is overwhelming, large, ostentatious and it would just be an eyesore. It's too big, too much and too ugly.

Glimmerglass

Sep. 23, 2005, 09:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">:
So if the Salamander Inn is not the project that can do that - what development or use do you propose that will pay the property taxes and the note? Grazing cattle isn't going to do it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to get argumentative but Virginia is - or was - seemingly different in viewing land compared to other States. People have bought huge chunks of land just to ensure the vistas next to their sprawling "farms" remained as is and with no financial return motive in mind. Wealthy benefactors have donated lands to be preserved without caring how much it could fetch if it was sold on the open market.

The estate of the late Stephen C. Clark, Jr in the early 1990's donated over 100 acres to The Hill School across from Boxwood so the land could be preserved. A highly generous family and he also donated an amazing number of works of art - like this Cezanne (http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/viewOne.asp?dep=11&viewMode=1&item=61%2E101%2E1) - to the Metropolitan Museum of Art too.

I digress.

On the point of cattle and that not working, please note the multi-million dollar estate of Canterbury (http://allenrealestate.com/homes/canterbury%20revision.html), is a working cattle farm with 300 head of
Gertrudis & Mixed Breeds on the estate. Taxes? Per public record they are under $13,000 a year on the 375 acre estate in Warrenton, Va.

Wicked low taxes in Virginia have been the reason vast family estate have been kept in family's for generation - especially when so many are now merely land rich but cash poor. All that seems to be changing faster then ever ...

llt

Sep. 23, 2005, 11:23 AM

A 100 room inn/day spa is not large enough for a convention or trade show of any sort, and as far as luxury accomodations go, I am not sure that the greater Middleburg area is a destination that is suited to support such an endeavor. Is perhaps this an intended accomodation for Mrs. Johnson's friends? Or perhaps when she retires or loses interest in the hospitality industry will the property then be developed? Or maybe it will be a retreat for the Viacom folks? Typically the hospitality industry is not hugely profitable in a non-destination type of spot, unless of course you make the location a destination, maybe this could be a new Pedro's South of the Border!!!!! I can see the signs now - "BET your honey, you can spend your money at Sheila's North of Middleburg Salamander Resort" just 198 miles away"

Janet

Sep. 23, 2005, 11:41 AM

Just curious.

How do the plans for this Salamander Inn /conference center compare with the exisiting conference center at Airlie?

NoFrill

Sep. 23, 2005, 12:09 PM

And I am curious, too, how it compares with the Keswick Inn? I recall that people were all up in arms before that was built, and I can't see that it has had quite the detrimental impact to rural Keswick that was predicted.

Glimmerglass

Sep. 23, 2005, 12:16 PM

Airlie (http://www.airlie.com/) has 150 guest rooms (vs. the proposed 120 for SR) and 17 meeting rooms. Airlie also takes serious pride in it's environmental history (http://www.airlie.org/).

Keswick (http://www.keswick.com/web/okes/okes_a2a_home.jsp) down in Charlottesville has 48 guestrooms.

poltroon

Sep. 23, 2005, 12:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">:
So if the Salamander Inn is not the project that can do that - what development or use do you propose that will pay the property taxes and the note? Grazing cattle isn't going to do it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to get argumentative but Virginia is - or was - seemingly different in viewing land compared to other States. People have bought huge chunks of land just to ensure the vistas next to their sprawling "farms" remained as is and with no financial return motive in mind. Wealthy benefactors have donated lands to be preserved without caring how much it could fetch if it was sold on the open market.

The estate of the late Stephen C. Clark, Jr in the early 1990's donated over 100 acres to The Hill School across from Boxwood so the land could be preserved. A highly generous family and he also donated an amazing number of works of art - like this Cezanne (http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/viewOne.asp?dep=11&viewMode=1&item=61%2E101%2E1) - to the Metropolitan Museum of Art too.

I digress.

On the point of cattle and that not working, please note the multi-million dollar estate of Canterbury (http://allenrealestate.com/homes/canterbury%20revision.html), is a working cattle farm with 300 head of
Gertrudis & Mixed Breeds on the estate. Taxes? Per public record they are under $13,000 a year on the 375 acre estate in Warrenton, Va.

Wicked low taxes in Virginia have been the reason vast family estate have been kept in family's for generation - especially when so many are now merely land rich but cash poor. All that seems to be changing faster then ever ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In California we have many, many large ranches still - hundreds, thousands of acres. Often they are very well cared for by their owners, with cattle running, and that's affordable because the ranch was bought for $100 an acre long ago, and the note is long paid off. Property taxes on these old parcels are fairly low due to Prop 13.

But, eventually, One Rancher dies. Maybe the land is divided among many heirs. Maybe it goes to one heir. Eventually, the land will turn into hands that do not wish the old lifestyle, and it will be sold. Some, but not all, of these parcels have been picked up by various conservancies. Otherwise, a new private owner will buy it.. at the market value of say $20k an acre. And the property taxes are assessed on the new value. On 100 acres at $20k an acre ($2M parcel value), your Calif property tax (3%) will be $60k a year, and the interest alone on your note will be over $100k a year.

So, IIRC, a mature steer brings about $2k. Just to cover your interest and your property taxes, you'd have to sell 80 mature steers every year if you had no expenses - that is, the steers lived off pasture which miraculously appeared and maintained itself, you never repair fences, never call the vet, and all the steers magically appeared (precastrated of course http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif) in your field.

More typically, you might guess that a $2k steer costs $1k to purchase and raise. If you go with the 1 Animal Unit per acre, you can only raise 100 steers on this land. So you can only have 100 animals and you make $1k each - that's only $100k of income. So you pay money every year to feed Americans some nice beef.

Here on the North Coast, the only crop you can grow that will even come close to covering an investment of $20K an acre is grapes. You can't pay the interest on a note for $20K an acre by running cattle, let alone pay the wages of the people needed to care for them. If you like cows, and you have a fat bank account, you might run it as a hobby farm on your very expensive personal residence.

That's the reality. We see it for equestrian use also - the owner that's been in place for 20 years can cover her expenses, but a new owner paying on current property values cannot.

icy98ach

Sep. 23, 2005, 01:06 PM

I moved to Middleburg back in 1990 and have since moved on to college and a career, but my family is still there. I love Mburg and the countryside around it. I rode on the circuit for years trekking across VA to show. Our horses enjoyed to hack out during the week so they could get out of the ring. I hunted with MH a few times in high school. We live in OC territory and I it takes my breath away to watch the hunt go through the back of our property.

There was a mention of Stephen Clarke’s donation of land to The Hill School, but there was no mention of that property’s renovation. As a graduate of Hill and a member of their alumni board, I didn’t welcome the change at first, but have come to appreciate the changes that took place. There are very few, if any, of the original structures remaining (I only mention this because many people have commented that Sheila should renovate a current structure for the inn instead of building a new one). The school community as a whole had to grow and develop in order to keep pace with the changing economy, competition and educational standards. While I did not benefit from the new school, my sister who graduated nine years after me, was able to. Her play in eighth grade was in a beautiful new playhouse with technical lighting and sound rather than the rutty stage that I performed on, who donated that playhouse – Sheila Johnson. While what I had was good – what my sister had was better.

I went to Foxcroft for high school and got their annual report in the mail a few months back. Their theme was the expansion for the school with drawing showing the changes of the school over the past 100 years and future changes in the next 20 years. Again, what I had there was great, but I think the additions that they want to make to the school will make it an even better place to continue to attract students from all over the country and world. Hopefully, if they fix Foxcroft Road, VDOT will take care of the bump up at Mrs. Pettibone’s (sp?) – that has been a driving hazard for years.

I feel in some ways that M’burg residents are stuck in their own world. I used to be in it and I loved it, but after leaving I realized that at some point there has to be some renewal and expansion. I was disappointed when the B&A market closed after years as a town staple, but at least we only have Safeway and another supermarket hasn’t moved in. We don’t have a Starbuck, but we have Cupa-Giddyup, which I think was a great addition to town. We’ve still maintained our shops – antiques, books, clothing and the tack stores (I used to work at Dominion and was sad to see it go, but the main store really didn’t support it in its last few years). I still see friends at the post office and Magpie’s (whatever they call it now) every time I’m home and I don’t leave before stopping in to the bakery to say hello to Mr. Stine.

I hope that Sheila’s plan retains the integrity of the town. Do I think the inn is too large – yes – I think it should be limited to 50 rooms. Is it going to cause a traffic fiasco – yes – but have you ever tried to drive from Atoka to M’burg at 7am on a weekday morning? VDOT should have started working on the traffic problem decades ago. If I’m home for a few days, would I love to run over to the spa and get a massage – of course! I do hope that she allows the hunt through the property since it is a cornerstone of the town. I like Salamander Market and Sheila’s other additions to town, I just think this project is too big. Am I for it or against it? I’m not really sure, but I really think that the Inn is better than the development of McMansions all over place.

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.

Sep. 23, 2005, 01:38 PM

Oh man...I'm never goimg back now...it'd be too sad. Okay, who remembers;
Bloomie directing traffic
The Cafe Le Rat gang
Peter Wilson sneaking in the church window the night before the rumble sale to tag and bundle everything he wanted the next day.
Loretta @ the Coach Stop "HAH Y'ALL"
John the bank manager asking what horse you were looking at before he'd give you a loan.
"Beamers" at The Night Fox..served up by Jay and James
Puking over yout colt's shoulder on the way to the training track in the morning [Beamers again]..and nobody thinking it was odd!!
...I could go on forever http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Tackpud

Sep. 23, 2005, 05:32 PM

Racetb - I remember all of that. Brian and Loretta at the Coach Stop and those fabulous Strawberry Pies!
The hold-up at the bank - and the robber's car running out of gas.
Shorty on his tractor repairing stone walls.
8 - 12 kids in a graduation class at Hill. The year after me was huge with 17 kids and only 1 was a boy!

It was a great place to grow up!

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.

Sep. 23, 2005, 06:13 PM

...and Jeep, the pot bellied town cop...volleyball every day at Eggie's...My apartment across from The Red Fox usually looked like a psychiatric ward for wayward jockeys...Ma Nichols...Having to sing "Hail To The Redskins" during the jog out to Jack Kent Cook's track...John Riggins and his mohawk.."Lighten up, Sandy baby"..remember THAT?? Riggo made the front page of the Washington Post after that little comment to Sandra Day O'Conner...LMAO!!! God, those were the days.

eponacelt

Sep. 23, 2005, 06:59 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
Airlie (http://www.airlie.com/) has 150 guest rooms (vs. the proposed 120 for SR) and 17 meeting rooms. Airlie also takes serious pride in it's environmental history (http://www.airlie.org/).

[QUOTE]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

My husband was one of the Airlie swan biologists...don't get me started about their "environmental history"...the stories I could tell...

Carol Ames

Sep. 23, 2005, 07:37 PM

Isn't she building an asisted living place?Some of us boomer horse people msay end up there..

Carol Ames

Sep. 23, 2005, 07:56 PM

SadlefitterVA, where in Purcellville are you?

icy98ach

Sep. 23, 2005, 08:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tackpud: 8 - 12 kids in a graduation class at Hill. The year after me was huge with 17 kids and only 1 was a boy!
It was a great place to grow up! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ha, I'll second that, but I had 26 in my class at Hill (18 girls and 8 boys http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif)

llt

Sep. 24, 2005, 07:58 AM

Isn't today the day that Sheila is getting married? Any of the COTH folks going? I heard that Whitney Houston and I think it was the Temptations are going to perform. Should be a grand event, but I wasn't on the guest list!

rjg2a

Sep. 24, 2005, 09:26 AM

For the record, the Inn will be larger than the entire town of Middleburg.
And yes, her wedding is today.

Glimmerglass

Sep. 24, 2005, 01:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rjg2a:
For the record, the Inn will be larger than the entire town of Middleburg. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure what math or measurement you are using.

If you mean larger than any other hospitality offering in M'burg - yes. If you mean total bodies to be accomodated vs. town population - no. 2002 census was 706 (up 11.7% over 2000) and with 120 rooms unless they are packed in like rats in a cage you can't exceed 706 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As for her big wedding - I hope it is a great day for her and I wish her well. Regarding the reported performer at it ... I can only hope that Being Bobby Brown will capture (if indeed Whitney Houston performs) some of his typical 'klassy' behavior if he's there too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

sidesaddle

Sep. 24, 2005, 04:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> but at least we only have Safeway and another supermarket hasn’t moved in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, icy98ach not exactly... I heard she is also in the process of buying the Safeway ...

My source is seldom wrong about these things, but I guess time will tell.

If I word reached me up here in O.T. Alex., I'd have to think its out there on the wire... any locals have definite word on the utlization of that space?

icy98ach

Sep. 24, 2005, 05:28 PM

Hum....sidesaddle, good to know - I'll check in with some people and see if I can find out any more info.

JulieMontgomery

Sep. 24, 2005, 06:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pinkhorse:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uberraschung:
Sheila Johnson has always driven me crazy for only one reason. She is not a real doctor, neither MD or PhD or any other kind of person who has the legitimate right and who has worked like a dog for the title. An honorary doctorate because you donated massive amounts of money to a school does NOT give you the right to call yourself a Dr....God that pisses me off.
QUOTE]

I agree - I can't take anything she says without laughing at her for taking herself so seriously. What a bizarre thing to do! I'd think most people would be embarassed to flaunt a non-earned doctorate (as opposed to an honorary, as she has). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen ... you'd think some of her "new" old-money friends would drop her the hint .... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Glimmerglass

Sep. 25, 2005, 05:01 PM

It sounds like her wedding was a lovely event - Washington Post 9-25-05 "Sheila Johnson, Marrying Very Well" (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/24/AR2005092401710_pf.html) so I wish her well.

And it was horsey too:

So, naturally, she hired as the visionary of her "I do's" worldwide wedding planner Preston Bailey -- his latest tour de force was the Palm Beach nuptials of Donald Trump and Melania Knauss -- and assured herself of a celebration that prompted guests' jaws to literally drop when they walked up the steps of the chapel built in an indoor riding arena that retained no horsey odor.

and so forth ...

MHM

Sep. 25, 2005, 06:36 PM

My favorite piece of understatement in the article:

"Since moving to Middleburg five years ago, Johnson hasn't done much on a small scale." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I wish them both every happiness.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MHM

Sep. 25, 2005, 06:38 PM

Oh, yes, I also loved it that For Kid's Sake got his name in the paper with Katie Couric. I wonder if she'll mention it on the Today show in the morning.

Glimmerglass

Sep. 26, 2005, 08:17 AM

A few pages back someone inquired about expected occupancy and the Friday issue of Leesburg Today did have such details:

Lessburg Today 9-23-05 "Salamander Special Exception Deferred; Commission Debates Traffic Counts, Special Event Rules" (http://www.leesburg2day.com/current.cfm?catid=28&newsid=11135)

Excerpt:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Before those meetings, [county planner John Merrithew] said the county’s principal concern was with access from Foxcroft Road into the property. After meeting with Salamander representatives, the applicant has agreed to put construct turn lanes if it becomes necessary over a five-year trial period. Middleburg Town Administrator Mike Casey asked that action be taken within six months of receiving the request. Merrithew noted that traffic generation for the 120-room proposal is projected to average 694 daily trips based on the industry 84 percent occupancy rate. The applicant claimed that traffic would be less in reality because guests are planned to stay in the resort for up to four nights, there will be shuttle service to and from airports and local attractions and the occupancy rate is expected to be closer to 69 percent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Salamander folks have requested permission for up to 43 special events a year, which could allow for 500 people to attend per event.

The special exception hearing was triggered by Salamander’s acknowledgment that the raise to 120 rooms would exceed the 600 daily vehicular trip generation threshold under which the facility would be allowed by-right.