LubriSyn & Hyalun TRIAL CoTH "results" -- pg 22. HA Aids in Tendon Repair ????

[Drifter]

Weelllll...

I know this is early, however after just two days with the loading dose, I rode him yesterday
and he definitely felt a little different with a little more spring in his step! I jumped a little (we had been jumping some), he loves it anyway, but was a little more happy about it then usual! Bottom line- I'm definitely encouraged! I will ride him tomorrow probaby just x-country though. Will keep you posted!

[maggiemae]

Ok, I just have to respond to this topic. I have a 13 yr old TB mare. We do hunter/jumper. She isn't lame, just seems stiff behind. I have been giving her the Hyalun since Mar 12. Her transitions are soooo much better. Trot/halt are fantastic -- wound up on her neck the first time because she stopped so quickly and so balanced.

For the poster that wanted to know if you had to give it every day -- I only give it the days I'm at the barn, which is 5 days a week. And I'm seeing a difference. She is more up and spooky, which I'm chalking up to feeling better behind.

For those of you who take it yourself, how do you take it -- in food, drink, ????

[silver]

CHJoker, where did you get it in Europe?

[Gunnar]

Goldylox, yeah I thought it might be a little hard with the liqiud. Yesterday I put L in his pellets and he ate them, albiet (sp?) dropping some. So I bit the bullet and added the 15ml to his baggies for the week. He alwasy finishes his bags so this should work.

TULT

Days 1-8

Grade : B+ (A-)

Lameness : 0

My horse continues to be sound. I have not quite experienced the improvement in movement most of you have but Bodie is in rehab and limited by lack of condtioning. He is a horse that requires lots of warm up for back and neck. It is hard to get a good trot out of him until you hae trotted for 10 to 15 minutes, at least. He can currentlyonly trot for 5 to 7 minutes so it is hard get that back and neck loosened up for a good extension with horse in front of your leg and on the bit. But he is certainly sound and oh so happy. He is so quiet that I keep thinking he is sick.

I have never give Bodie Chondroitin (sp?) but Gunnar thrived on J-Flex from Spring Time. I may start Bodie on that if it seems that Chondroitin is needed and or helpful.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Ok, you're all going to just LOVE this one.

So, I'm talking with A vet yesterday (not mine.) And I says to this vet, I says I says, "Hey, Mr. Vet. Have you heard of this stuff? What do you thi ..... (cut off)"

"WELL," he says, "all those oral supplements aren't worth a tinkers's damn. They've proved conclusively that they cannot be absorbed by the body and they're a complete waste of money".

Okaaaaaaaaaay.

So. All you people out there in 'television land' remember that this stuff doesn't work !!!

[Fessy's Mom]

That's really a shame. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Just think of all the people (like me) who can't afford Legend for their horses, but would be able to afford this stuff.

My vet was skeptical, but was very willing to order it for me. Thankfully now it can be ordered directly on line. Now we just need to help everyone hear about it! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Gunnar]

Hey FM how do you put the L in a carrot?. You mentioned you put a hole in it etc. Can you expain to me exactly how you did it. I can be a little slow!!

Yeah no one I have mentioned L to has heard of it. Mostly horse trainers and other rides I asked when I was at Pebble Beach last weekend. I am a believer and cannot afford a monthly vet call for Legend shot so this works out well for Bodie.

[Fessy's Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gunnar:
Hey FM how do you put the L in a carrot?. You mentioned you put a hole in it etc. Can you expain to me exactly how you did it. I can be a little slow!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, but this is pretty technical! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I start with about three inches of the thicker (closed) end of a carrot and, using one blade of a pair of scissors, I stick it into the carrot and scrape out a little tube about two inches deep and squirt the L in there.

Does that make sense? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Gunnar]

FM then you keep it upright until in Abe's mouth or is the carrot sideways? I am confused if you go from top down or thru side. I think you are gong thru the side but then you still have to hold the carrot upright to not spill??

See I told you I was slow!!

[Fessy's Mom]

I'm sorry - I should have made that more clear! Yes, I have to hold the carrot up when it's got the Lubrisyn in it - kind of like a tall, narrow cup. So I'm cutting the end, not the side.

Does that make more sense? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[slp2]

OK guys--been reading through this whole thread and got to the point where I just HAD to order the stuff. However, the e-mail address for Jeff Morgenstern isn't working. Anyone else been able to order this from him lately? Or should I just go to the horsepower website? I brought that website up and it looks like you can buy the Lubrisyn directly from them? Or does it just take a lot longer?

[DebPaxhia]

I have ordered Lubrisyn now and am waiting...

I understand that the liquid form of HA that Lubrisyn is, is a different formulation than what is in granular/powdered formulations. The manufacturer's website explains this, and I discussed this with Jeff--who is distributing Lubrisyn. My limited understanding is that the liquid form of HA is a "larger molecule" and because of this, it is absorbed through the gut and gets to the joint, just as the injections do.

I think once vets become familiar with this product, we will see them being much more supportive, though having some rigid research results sure would help. I haven't heard of any controlled research that support the claims.

As we know the results people are seeing on these posts are "totally unscientific." I am willing to pile on because it can't hurt, and it is worth a try.

[DebPaxhia]

Jeff's email is:
morgensternassoc@aol.com

Is this the email you have? I emailed him yesterday (Sunday), and he emailed me back then he called me. I made my order. He was very knowledgeable, made recommendations based on my personal situation, and was very responsive. His price was competitive.

[slp2]

Yep--that's the e-mail I used. Twice it was rejected. I'll try again tomorrow! I did try to order through the horsepower website and it got stuck at a certain point. I did notice that you can get the Hyalun at Valley Vet (where I order from regularly). But in my "extensive research" (i.e. reading this thread!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) it sounded like the Lubrisyn was more potent and more cost effective?

[PaulaM]

well, just got my Hyalun yesterday and will take it out to the farm tomorrow. Can't wait to see how it works for the old gal!

[AstersMom]

I just ordered the LubriSyn, mostly for my husband and his beat up body from many years of service to his country, lol. But told him it was mostly for the horses.

I sure hope he gets the same great results everyone else has!

I do have one 15yo ottb gelding, who is just nqr somedays, and just got in a mare that had a torn flexor tendon as a 6mo foal. She's broke to ride, but it flares up sometimes. Thought it might make her feel better.

[Gunnar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fessy's Mom:
I'm sorry - I should have made that more clear! Yes, I have to hold the carrot up when it's got the Lubrisyn in it - kind of like a tall, narrow cup. So I'm cutting the end, not the side.

Does that make more sense? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

FM, now I get it. That seems pretty easy. I will try it.

Thanks

[Sannois]

Whoa Are you saying people can take it??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Penthilisea]

TULT:
Another really GOOD ride.
We have forward across the diagonal- like another half a gear of forward even after 3 days off.
And for some reason he is putting me more evenly in the saddle- He generally throws his ribs left and butt right but today it was less uneven. And he is due for an adjustment.
Even in the wet ring ( just over watered!) he was really trotting on- only at the canter did he get a bit shorter and careful- and even that wasn't terrible.
I dont know but I AM ordering the gallon.
Does the gallon have a easy measure system or do aI nee dot transfer the stuff to the quart bottle?

[welshcob]

Yes Sannois, I started almost two weeks ago, about 6 weeks or so after my horse! I take it out of the same bottle, just use a syringe and take 3cc per day, followed by a banana or something -- the consistency is strange, but really no taste, a little salty.

I started my gallon container last week, I just transfer a quart worth into the dosing bottle -- but a big syringe would pull out the daily dose.

Day uh 48, Gryffin had a 2 1/2 hr trail ride with lots of cantering/galloping/bolting on Sunday.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif today I did some flatwork and he was sooo good, very tractable and if he would have been sore --- he'd let me know !!!!

Again I'm so sure that the LubriSyn has gotten us over the little "resistance" hump, read nebulous discomfort on his part.

We'll be jumping again soon!!!!

[Oldenburg Mom]

Jeff will probably kill me for this ... his phone number is 513 877 2625. SLP2, try calling him!

Beautimous Mare, who is NQR, is going to her first show on Sunday. Oh My! Let's see how she holds up! Training level test one and two.

[slp2]

Thanks OM! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'll try his e-mail again! If it won't go through today--I'll call!

[Gunnar]

One more thing to note on Bodie. He has been in rehab off and on for 18 months now so I know every step he takes. I watch him like a hawk, whenever he is running loose or I am sort of long lining him. He no longer has any difference in his stride. Most noticably he extends the trot and does not break to the canter when that knee sort of gets left behind. Before he would break to the canter when he extended the trot on his own. Last night he just threw those legs out there and strutted. It was a thing of beauty.

Yahoo.

[CHJoker]

Silver,

I contacted the manufacturer, and they shipped it directly to me.

However, I am going to order the Lubrisyn from now on.. I heard that the EU approval just went through, and it should be available from Ireland.

[BigMick]

I have just read this thread in it's entirety and I think I'm sold (LubriSyn).

A girl that I board with mentioned that she's starting her horse on (LubriSyn) soon. I'm going to share infor with her and we will post our feedback in the aforementioned format.

findeight - my horse is also currently on GLC5500. You took yours off of it completely, correct? How long has she been off of it?

Looks like several people feel they should stay on Glucosamine in addition to the LubriSyn. Am I reading that right?

thanks!
BigMick

[Drifter]

Day 5 of Lubrisyn-Rode my boy yesterday- little x-country and a little ring work. Definitely feels less stiff starting out and seems to have a little more spring in his trot! Definitely notice somewhat of a difference. Going away for a few days- so he'll be off and will report back and check in upon return!

[findeight]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BigMick:


findeight - my horse is also currently on GLC5500. You took yours off of it completely, correct? How long has she been off of it?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

er.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif tomorrow....the SmartPak that shipped on the 11th has the new combination.

This is kind of an experiment after all.

If the HA functions mainly as a carrier, the other stuff should be provided in a good diet which is not a problem in my barn.
Others who have been on the L for longer have discontinued almost everything else with no drop off in performance. So I'm going to give it a try.

Again, the new Pak drops the (pricey)GLC5500 in favor of Missing Link plus Glucosamine(cheap) MSM for it's anti inflammatory property(cheaper) and Shoer's Friend(cheapest).

The flax seed based Missing Link works on connective tissue and ought to give the coat a real boost. I am thinking, if it works, we can drop the hoof stuff in a few months.

I will update as she comes off the GLC5500.

[Fessy's Mom]

TULT - day 14.

Lameness is now a 3 from a 4. He's sound at the walk almost 100% of the time now, and shows a moderate head bob at the trot, although he'll lose it if he's really jetting around. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Speaking of which...

[luveventing]

I was reading this thread after looking through smart pak for cosequin alternatives. I am just not convinced on that stuff. I found a really interested research study on oral H.A. thought some people might be interested to read.
http://www.drreevesonline.com/Syn7info.html

[Oldenburg Mom]

Question for all you MARE owners ... have you noticed any udder changes with your girls on LubriSyn?

[CHJoker]

"Thank you very much to those who participated in the "Oral Hyaluronic Acid Knee Arthritis Study" at a dosage level of 2 mg per day. In summary, the two month data showed improvement in pain of 17% and 6 month data showed an improvement in pain of 28%. The 6 month data is encouraging in that a placebo typically does not improve pain that much. After the 6 month data was gathered I approached the Human Subjects Committee for approval for a dosage escalation study. Unfortunately the human subjects committee requested drug absorption studies which only formal drug companies can afford so I could not proceed at this time.

I would also like to thank the sponsoring company which allowed this study to be conducted from my viewpoint in an unbiased fashion. Meanwhile the literature continues to grow on the importance of hyaluronic acid in growth and repair. I will certainly encourage more research on this important structure as I truly feel that at optimum dosage and time frame (both needing more study) that oral hyaluronic acid will be superior to glucosamine/chrondroitin and able to affect more locations in the body than injectible hyaluronic acid. The liquid formulation has logical advantages in terms of absorption that need to further studied as well.

Best regards,

Dr Reeves"

This was taken off of the link about hyaluronic acid that was just posted. It seems he did his own study...

Interesting. Well, I can say that I take 5 mgs of the Hyalun every day. My physical therapist is very pleased with my progress so far. Every day, I have more and more mobility, and I continue to have very little or no pain (I am not on any painkillers at all).

But, I have never broken a bone before, so I have no idea how fast or slow I "normally" heal. I have no idea if the HA does or does not help, I just take it!

[findeight]

HA will not help with the fracture itself, just the joint lubrication...I am bumping my original post from 2 months ago for those newbies who want more info.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Hey, findeight ... you know what's really funny about these threads? If you go to google and search for LubriSyn, this thread comes up first, not the company that sell it!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[bassy]

I have been waiting to be sure, but I have not noticed any change in my gelding at all. He was loaded for 3 days and has been on for about 2 weeks now. He was not unsound at all, but I wanted to see if there was anything hiding. Apparently, there isn't!!! I am still going to try it on my mare, after she has her baby.

[DebPaxhia]

I received my Lubrisyn and will start my filly on it tonight.

She had a pasture accident where she took a blow to her hip, and while the hip seems OK now, there is the possibility that the sacroiliac joint has been damaged. After spending a month at the vet hospital trying to diagnose her lameness, all I really learned was somehow between the time she hit her hip and went to the hospital, she managed to inflame her sesamoidean ligaments! And, I was told there might be damage to the sacroiliac, but there is no way to diagnose this, and there is no way to fix the problem if there is damage. The prognosis is very iffy for a return to soundness!

I have nothing to lose, and this mare may have everything to gain. I am going to combine the daily Lubrisyn with a series of Adequan injections!

[findeight]

And one more time....this is a neutraceutical(sp?) not a drug. It's something the body makes that carries moisture around but it shuts down as we age. It's NOT a drug.
It WILL NOT fix medical problems or soft tissue injuries nor will it mend fractures. It's no "miracle drug".

BUT it DOES replace that moisture carrier and relube arthritic joints.
No more. No less.

If that's the problem? It fixes it. If something else is going on? It has no effect and won't fix a thing. And if it does not fix it? I'd say your vet needs to continue some other treatment.

If it does work, the Adequan can be discontiued and replaced with oral glucs at a reduced price.

[DebPaxhia]

Yep, I am trying Lubrisyn with the idea that maybe there is something in the SI joint that is a problem. Maybe some arthritis or something. Like I said, I have nothing to lose.

Also, would you give me some names of the oral glucs?

[Penthilisea]

The other girl who rides Mr. Harvey horse for me has also seen some very good improvements. He is getting ridden less often but with more butt kickin ( no the horse carries the rider, the rider does NOT hold up the horse with her hands and legs!!) and the weather is warmer but....
I credit the lubrisyn and the good riding I pay for. Hehehe.

Just put in my order for gallon and cut all but the MSM from his smartpak next month. If all goes well we'll try the month after on no MSM too.

[Lord Helpus]

I seem to be in a minority, but, after a month's trial, I have decided that it isn't as good as what I had been giving George.

George was on Hylasport (http://www.horsetech.com/hylasport.htm) and paste Conquer. The combination was not intentional, but was a result of my program being combined with the trainer's program, thereby double dosing George with HA. But the results were dramatic.

For the first time in 2 years, I had the lovely free from the shoulder, back lifted, spine swinging trot that I remembered. He went forward happily and his canter was long and low and he came through fromt behind. He was jumping better -- really pushing off like he used to.

But, since we had the winter off with no shows, I thought I would try the Lubrisyn since it was cheaper than what George was on and everyone was raving about it. Unfortunately, it doesn't do the job.

I've lost all of that lovely freedom of movement and power behind again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif George feels like he does when he isn't on any joint supplement and he is not hurt or sore -- there is no reason for the change, other than stopping the HylaSport/Conquer.

So, back to my prior program -- The Lubrisyn was worth a try, but it isn't the second coming/end all and cure all. What I was doing is better for me -- at least now I know.

So, for any of you out there who are not 100% convinced that Lubrisyn is not doing all that needs to be done, you're not alone.

PS: My vet was questioning why a LARGER molecule would be more effectively absorbed. We both thought that a smaller molecule sounded more likely to be readily absorbed, but evidently that isn't so. Where were we wrong in our thinking?

[Oldenburg Mom]

LHU -

You know, you've hit the nail squarely and most authoritatively on the head!

What works for one may not work for another. The important thing is these four footers and their comfort. And you've found what you makes your guy happy. Isn't that great!?!?

I know. Because for me the LubriSyn is a god send. She is incredibly sound where before she wasn't. It's that simple.

I am very interested, however, in the chondroitin aspect. Because, as I understand it, while the LubriSyn increases the fluid in the joint, it'e the chondroitin that actually increases the cartilage.

Anyway. Congratulations, LHU, for finding something that works!

[CHJoker]

Lord Helpus,

I think that you could be on to something http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Although we would all like to believe we know everything about HA, the fact is, even the top scientists in the country can't figure out exactly WHY it works, and how. I doubt us COTHers should be giving any concrete advice on what works for what, and why. There just isn't any science to back up any of this, at the end of the day. The question of molecular weight and efficacy is at best a guess, from what I have read, and the theory that higher mol. weight is better is based off of a study that was not performed on horses.

It could be that molecular weight has little to do with efficacy of HA...maybe it is more to do with the quality/mg content of the HA (and content, as research into different products has shown some products don't contain the ingredients they claim to...) Could certain co-ingredients be important, in certain doses? Who knows. I know, for example, the Hylasport you are using has at least 100 mgs HA per serving...combined with the conquer..(no idea how many mgs..) but your horse probably got at least 150 mgs per serving with the combo...

I am going to try the Lubrisyn for my horse, but I am also going to try him on a new joint product from the UK, which has 850 mg of HA, 12,000 mgs of Glucosamine, and 2000 mgs chronditon per serving. (There is a severely arthritic horse is my barn that I think will start on this product as well..) I will give a full report http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I know that people are seeing results (myself included..) but that does NOT mean that Lubrisyn OR Hyalun are the only HA products out there that work http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

OMom, have you tried a HA product, HIGH dosage of HA on any of your horses before the lubrisyn, just out of curiosity? (Not glucosamine or chronditon..but a high quality, high dose HA?)

Because, prior to trying the Hyalun, I had never tried any HA products...for myself, or my horse...so I really don't have a point of reference...


Oh, one other thing http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif ...Find Eight, thanks again for your concern about my fracture, but in actuality...no one really knows what HA does or doesn't do, especially when taken orally. It does seem, according to studies, to relieve pain. Quite frankly, there is no evidence that the HA given orally works by "lubricating the joint", or even "healing fractures", lol. There just seems to be pain relief, in horses and humans, but the top experts can't seem to agree WHY. I happened to skip a dose of HA yesterday, and I had a significant amount of pain by the late afternoon/evening...for the first time in two? weeks, I had to take a painkiller.

I don't know if it was related or not, but today, I took my HA. No pain today. Who knows?? I will continue taking it, even if it is possibly a "placebo" effect (ie, I want it to work, so it does)- No pain, well..is good enough for me http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

That said, I do find the Dr. Reeves comments to be interesting ( he conducted a clinical trial with HA and humans):

"I would also like to thank the sponsoring company which allowed this study to be conducted from my viewpoint in an unbiased fashion. Meanwhile the literature continues to grow on the importance of hyaluronic acid in growth and repair. I will certainly encourage more research on this important structure as I truly feel that at optimum dosage and time frame (both needing more study) that oral hyaluronic acid will be superior to glucosamine/chrondroitin and able to affect more locations in the body than injectible hyaluronic acid. The liquid formulation has logical advantages in terms of absorption that need to further studied as well."

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CHJoker:

OMom, have you tried a HA product, HIGH dosage of HA on any of your horses before the lubrisyn, just out of curiosity? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. HyleMotion. It got her about 90% of the way there. It was a VAST improvement but that last 10% it couldn't touch. LubriSyn has her 100% sound. And she's just astonishingly wonderful!

[Lord Helpus]

CHJoker,

Between the HylaSport and Conquer, I was giving 200MG of HA a day, plus a long list of other joint neutracels (sp?) such as high levels of Glucosamine, etc.

What is the name of the product from England that you are going to try which has such incredibly high levels of HA? I would love to look into it.

~~~~~

As long as we are talking about unscientific studies here, I will chime in with my own.

Being, er, older than many of you, I have those annoying little lines around my upper lip (I also used to smoke...).

Since Lubrisyn is a component of whatever it is that people have injected (is it Botox??) to get ride of lines in their face, every night when I poured out the Lubrisyn I would put a drop or 2 on my finger and rub it above my upper lip.

I really think that the little lines have significantly decreased! I have 3 - 4 deeper lines which are still there, but the smaller lines seem to have gone away.

It might be interesting to do another informal study if any of you have small lines (a topical isn't going to do away with deep lines) on your face to try this for a month. I didn't do a count or anything -- Mine was just a "well, it can't hurt" kind of deal. So I'd be interested to see if others can replicate my seemingly positive results.

[farmgirl]

Hi all,

I've skimmed this thread with great interest and need to read it more carefully. I have a lovely young horse who has been diagnosed (by various veterinarians) with a SI injury, stifle injury, hock problem and bone bruise. Not sure which, if any are right.

I purchased the Conquer gel for him based upon one of the recommendation of one of the veterinarians. I will gladly go by the Lubrisyn if it is a better choice. He is better, but still cannot canter and I don't know if it is a strenght problem or an injury problem.

Somewhere on this thread, I thought I saw that Hyalun has 5 mg/dose and LubriSyn has 45 mg/dose. Conquer gel has 100 mg/dose I think. Can someone help me understand the advantage of LubriSyn? I will gladly switch if it will help him.

Thanks, fg

[AWIP]

Pricing and dosage comparison
- Conquer gel - approx $13 USD, 3 day supply, 100mg/day (10ml)
- Hyalun - approx $25 USD, 30 day supply, 5mg/day (5 ml)
- Lubrisyn - approx $66 USD, 30 day supply, 45 mg/day (15ml)
- Hylamotion - approx $45 USD, 30 day supply, 100mg/day (30 ml)

I also found a human source in Canada. $28 CDN for 60 capsules, 50mg HA & 450mg MSM/capsule
Break open a capsule and dump it into feed and I think this is the price & dosage winner!

[Oldenburg Mom]

AWIP, FYI.

All hyluronic acid is created equal. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I had Beautimous Mare on Hylamotion for two months ... and while she was greatly improved, she was not 100%.

I believe the molecular weight of LubriSyn is what makes it more effective.

Regardless, I now have a sound horse, while on Hylamotion I did not. Anecdotal? You bet. But it IS fact.

[AWIP]

OM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I hear you .. loud and clear.
That's why I'm trying different brands and ideas.
Hyalun @ 30mg/day? Improvement @ 10mg/day ... mmmm, not so clear.

Lubrisyn @ 22.5mg/day? Windpuffs and general wear/tear puffiness reduced , just moved up to 45mg/day.

Will I try the human grade HA/MSM combo for the price? Definitely. The horse will let us know whether it is helping more or less. (heck, I just started taking it myself so I'll report back on MY progress http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Will I try Hylamotion out? Yup.

As you said some horses respond better to one product vs the other. I do know that I can come back to the Lubrisyn and that it IS working. I just want to make sure I find the beast and most economical solution for the horse. She was already sound but this is definitely assisting with the general wear/tear and recovery.

[farmgirl]

Oldenburg Mom, I think you just answered my question. Thank you... will try to find some LubriSyn asap. fg

[buff4948]

AWIP, what's the name brand for the human one?

[AWIP]

Brand name NOW
www.nowfoods.com (http://www.nowfoods.com)

I just picked it up for me last night. Am currently taking 'loading dose' level (2 caps x2/day as per bottle) and will cut it back to the recommended min of 2 caps/day

[ltw]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">All hyluronic acid is created equal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


OMOM: Where do you get your scientific data that says all hyluronic acid is equal? I believe the vets and researchers would differ greatly with you on this opinion. In fact, most will tell you the oral stuff it is as good as pouring $ in the toilet.

Conqeur, Hylamotion, and all oral nutraceuticals will never have the same effect as Legend (IV or IA injection)


See RAyers Quote on the subject:
"You are in the twilight zone of commercial nutraceutucals. These companies can make any claim about high vs low weight without proof. There are no studies to show absorption in horses. Whatever data is out there is whatever the company wants. At the same time studies such as the clinical one done by Corta-Flex are still VERY subjective (e.g. one vet's lameness is not the same as another's).

You and everyone else are asking the right questions but there is NO data other than that from the studies used to support the FDA approval for Adequan and Legend as to what works."


The only HA that has been formally studied and shown to benefit joint issues is Legend. Until the companies that make these oral HA versions step up and do the studies they can make all the claims they want with no formal proof of benefit and everyone can continue to potentially waste money.

[AWIP]

ltw ...
I 'think' she meant to say all hyaluronic acids are NOT created equal

And regarding scientific opinion on this supplement ...
I've been taking the max. recommended dosage since last night
-&gt; the arthritis/repetitive strain in my hands from working continuously on a laptop? approx. 75% reduced
-&gt; the heat I've been noticing in my knuckle joints this week? gone
-&gt; the heel pain I've been having for months? similar reduction - prob. 75%.

I've also seen a nice moving horse moving the best I've ever seen since putting her on it. She isn't on anything else.

'They' may consider it a waste but I'm pretty impressed so far. It certainly leaves glucosamine standing in the dust.

[CHJoker]

ltw, where do YOU get your scientific research that says all oral HA products will never have the same effect as Legend? Bayer never directly compared their product to any oral HA compound that I am aware of, or at least, nothing was published.

Like it or not, the research HAS NOT BEEN DONE to prove anything one way or another, regarding efficacy of different nutraceutical products, or in comparison to Legend.

If you don't want to spend the money for the oral stuff, that is fine and don't do it!

But don't be so quick to make a statement about something that even the experts in the field of Hyaluronic Acid research are not sure of.

Except, of course, those researchers that work for Bayer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[DebPaxhia]

I have had my mare with the "maybe" SI injury on Lubrisyn for a couple weeks now. Since she is on limited space, I can't yet tell if there is any changes. She also has a seismoid (sp) ligiment injury. She is definitely moving nice in straight lines for short distances. She is also much happier, but I contribute this to the fact that she is now going out with the other girls every day and is going into a larger turn out (still limited) and sometimes she gets to go graze too.

The reason I am posting now is to say I am also giving her a series of Adequan shots. After the shots are finished, I am going to give her Myristol which has glucosimine in it, and my vet thinks it is effective. I will continue with the Lubrisyn and Myristol.

I will try her under saddle again in late May or early June. Again, if her problem isn't in the SI joint, none of this will help, but it is worth the effort because otherwise she is going to be a broodmare. She has so much of a "performance horse" attitude that it would be a shame if she can't work!

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
AWIP, FYI.

All hyluronic acid is created <span class="ev_code_RED">NOT </span>equal. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

YUP. Sorry about that... yes made a mistake...first I've ever made. Thanks for jumping in there, AWIP.

Oh, and BTW LTW, regardless of what you think about LubriSyn, whether the vets feel it's money flushed down the toilet or not ... I have a sound horse...that was previously not sound. And the only supplement I have her on is LubriSyn.

But thanks so much for your remarks. I'm delighted that you're interested enough in these products to follow the thread!

[CHJoker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The only HA that has been formally studied and shown to benefit joint issues is Legend. Until the companies that make these oral HA versions step up and do the studies they can make all the claims they want with no formal proof of benefit and everyone can continue to potentially waste money. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, your statement that Legend is the only product "formally studied" is not true. For example, see Dr. Reeves research on arthritis patients (human), and other (oral) products for horses (conquer?). There was a study with oral HA and race horses, which showed efficacy. There have been various trials with glucosamine and dogs, and a few with horses.


All Oral nutraceuticals (HA and glucosamine products included) have been tested for safety (per FDA/EU regulation) and I believe my horse will let me know what products work, and which don't. I like having alot of choice, new formulations, and having these products available at a relatively low price. The downside ofthis is that some products may not work. But, this I find out fairly quickly, through either word of mouth, or my own personal experience.

Forget about low price if nutraceuticals are required to prove "efficacy" before being allowed on the market. This costs MILLIONS of dollars to do. You can't have it both ways, and quite frankly, even if a product is proven effective, it doesn't mean it will be effective on my horse.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Oh, and one more thing. Give me oral supplements ANYDAY over IA injections. Been that route with RRB and am grossly unimpressed.

[Izabella]

I'm curious about the lameness issues in these horses. Has anyone had a diagnosis as to why their horse was lame...... just how much can Lubrisyn fix? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

Izabella.

Confirmed dx - Bone chip. Had the surgery. Ended up with a degree 1 lamness. Thanks to LubriSyn is now completely sound, in work (dressage) and JUMPING &lt;---(she LOFFS it).

[ltw]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">First of all, your statement that Legend is the only product "formally studied" is not true. For example, see Dr. Reeves research on arthritis patients (human), and other (oral) products for horses (conquer?). There was a study with oral HA and race horses, which showed efficacy. There have been various trials with glucosamine and dogs, and a few with horses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
CHJOker said above:

CHJoker: as we all know horses guts do not absorb the same way that a human gut absorbs these products. The oral stuff has been proven to work for humans and dogs but not horses. The whole molecular weight issue.

The subject here is the benefits of oral HA for horses, not people. Please cite your study that shows the benfits of oral HA for horses. I am not talking about safety, I am talking about lameness improvement. If there is a new more recent formal study that shows benefit and improvement of lameness equal to IV Legend than I would love to tell Dr. Kent Allen and Dr. Paul Anikas (two highly respected vets that I use to please take a look at those studies). Can you please reference these studies?

By the way, I tried the Lubrisyn, on two horses for one month. I saw no improvement. I give my own Legend shots IV. I returned to that modality and as always had immediate improvement in my two horses.

Another note: See the quote below from DVM magazine article written by Ed Kane:

"Equine orthopedic specialist Alicia Bertone, DVM, PhD, Trueman Family Endowed Chair and Professor, Veterinary Clinical Sciences at The Ohio State University, says she has never read anything scientifically regarding the oral efficacy of HA. She agrees that there is no information in the veterinary literature regarding its absorption, metabolism or transport to the joint tissues. If it is fed, because of the large size of the molecule, whether it is absorbed intact, or broken down, how it is absorbed and/or transported to the tissues, there is no information or data. If it is broken down as it is absorbed, it might not be able to function as it might if it is injected IV or IA. It might have little or no benefit.

"None of that work has been done to my knowledge," Bertone states.

Some companies have anecdotal responses, but there is no good independent science out there as yet. With the oral glycosaminoglycans (chondrotin sulfate, glucosamine) there is research done in people demonstrating some clinical benefit. There is a large study being completed by the National Institutes of Health. Similar unbiased controlled studies should be conducted on oral HA in horses before promoting that it has a benefit."

[CHJoker]

OK, ltw, I will humor you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif In quoting the Ed Kane article, it is interesting to note he ALSO wrote this, in the same article...

full article
http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=134767&sk=&date=&pageID=5

"Treating early osteoarthritis-Orally administration hyaluronic acid can be a new arrow in practioner's quiver, but few efficacy studies exist
Dec 1, 2004
By: Ed Kane, PhD
DVM Newsmagazine



Initially, Pierce studied the effects of oral HA on weanling foals. Typically, a lot of babies get big joints in their forelegs, especially after weaning. He studied eight foals that were radiographically normal. The foals had no other treatment, i.e. no bandaging, no stall rest, no steroids, nothing except oral sodium hyaluronate gel. Within a week, three to four were normal; within two weeks another was normal, and within another week the other foal was normal. His clients, knowledgeable horseman, said: "Hey doc, you're on to something here." Pierce also has done work comparing orally administered and IV administered HA, and looked at the changes in the serum levels. Of 10 horses, the only group that had an elevated serum level by day 7 was the oral group.

Pierce then went to the racetrack and had some trainers and veterinarians do a study (soon to be published) for him. Of 26 racehorses, 2-6 years old, half got a placebo and the others oral HA. The trainers and the veterinarians did not know which horse was getting what. If racehorses are feeling OK, then they are taken to the track and trained. If they're not, then they're going to be in the shedrow in a stall.

"The first thing I wanted to measure was something simple, the number of days on the track versus the number of days walked," Pierce says.

During a 60-day period, the treated horses went to the track five more days than the non-treated ones. The data were not statistically significant, but it showed a trend. If the group size were larger, then there would have enough difference, about 70 percent to 80 percent, to show clinical significance. The other factor that was measured was whether a horse became lame during a 60-day period. The number of horses that were examined for lameness in the control (placebo) group was 11 of 13. The number examined in the treated group was four. That data was statistically significant.

"Based on that finding, we could conclude that oral HA prevented lameness in the racing Thoroughbred," Pierce says."

****************************************

Well, as experts can't agree, and apparently, neither can we http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif it is clear that more information is needed.

I am sorry it didn't work for your horses. But, note, it has worked, and WELL, for some people's horses, and well, some people who have tried it for themselves. I doubt many would continue their horses on something they saw ZERO effect with (did you? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). Since these nutraceutical companies are still in existance, and in fact, doing booming business.... hmmm. Scientists are trying to find out more information. In the meantime, I will give it to my horse, so long as I see improvements. I will continue to take it myself, as well.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but not one of us has said, "this will work, for every horse, guaranteed!". It is not fair of you to say "This can't/won't work, guaranteed, and Legend is the only product that works". Because 1) oral products have worked for some horses 2) there IS evidence that oral HA is absorbed by equines and *) This is just too new, and basically unexplored.

It is, of course, interesting to note that you saw NO benefit with Lubrisyn. Do you mind giving a bit more background on the horses you tried it with? Did you give a loading dose? how many mgs per day? What were the pre-existing conditions of your horses? Did you notice any + effect with the oral HA, a worsening, or just not as strong/good as the iv legend? How often do you give the legend? Regarding the Lubrisyn, was it liquid, or gel formulation?

[welshcob]

Thank you to those who have brought some of the research that "has" been done to our attention!

Horse - 8 weeks on LubriSyn, no looking back, we started jumping this week and are going in a stadium/cc clinic this weekend. Not wholely because of Lubrisyn but it definitely contributed.

Itw said "By the way, I tried the Lubrisyn, on two horses for one month. I saw no improvement. I give my own Legend shots IV. I returned to that modality and as always had immediate improvement in my two horses."

I gave Legend to my horse last summer, I saw immediate improvement in his gaits and attitude. I started LubriSyn, I saw immediate improvement in his gaits and attitude. My conclusion is that for my horse it works as well as legend shots. Fortunately it also works for a lot of other people who have posted here. I didn't need a study to convince me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I have been taking it myself for 4 weeks. My back pain has been reduced by about 95% I feel 10 years younger, my range of motion has increased dramatically. I can pull my socks on in the morning (one of those things one never thinks about until you can't bend over to do it)
My 82yo mother went for a walk in the woods with us a couple days ago -- and managed to climb through 2 fences http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif She's not pain free but it's taken away enough pain she can get out and about again. We both have thinning/disappearing discs and bone spurs - confirmed by x-ray.

So after all this discourse, despite the lack of a huge study and scientific data, and some responses that oral HA "can't" work as well as Legend -- my horse, my mother and myself -- as well as other posters -- are enjoying the fact that this oral HA is working for us. I truly believe it is worth a try for anyone who either had Legend work, or knows they have a joint problem. In one month it will either show positive effects or not. If the consumer uses common sense they "may" reap the benefits -- or it may not help. But at the moment it looks like the TULT is showing more positive results than not.

[Fessy's Mom]

ltw - why be so negative? I'm sorry the lubrisyn didn't work for your horses, but please don't belittle those of us who have chosen to use it and ARE seeing positive results. Why? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Well, I think we're coming up on day thirty for Abey-Baby and we're doing very well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I haven't been able to do his physical therapy lately because I hurt my back last week. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif But with the good weather, he's been out for about 14 hours a day eating grass and being a happy horsey. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I took him in to groom him yesterday, then put him in the sand ring for a minute to watch him move and was very pleased. Even without the PT he's extending the bum leg more than ever and has only a slight head bob at the trot. Canter is beautiful with fluid changes.

I honestly don't know if he'll ever be sound enough to ride, but the improvements I've seen from head-bobbing lame at the walk only two months ago to sound at the walk and maybe a high grade 1, low 2 lameness at the trot and I couldn't be happier. And I think Abe's pretty happy too! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ltw]

I personally would like to see independent research done on all of the oral products to verify the claims. It would benefit everyone. I would very much like to see the results that we could use these and know the dosage and benefit in a more scientific form.

It is a huge industry that alot of people are spending alot of money on and it only makes sense that the claims should be backed up by some good research. At this point, all the professionals (vets and scientists) say the same thing: The research has not occurred and it needs to.

I read Pierce's study. He used it on foals with ephysisits. This is a totally different application than arthritis. Inflammation occurs in foals joints when they grow to fast or have uneven growth spurts or lack a particular mineral in their diet. I think this is a great finding and I am all for using the oral HA on a foal based on this results. IN fact, I will use it for this application.

Concerning the race horse study, if you read that closely even Pierce admits the only measurement was how many horses raced versus how many stayed in the stalls. He did not examine the horses for lameness and admits the results are anecdotal. This in my opionion not a in-depth enough study to be good science. There needs to be more work done.

Over the years I have tried a number of the oral HA products. Hyalun, Conquer and Lubrisyn most recently. I gave the loading doses in both cases and in the case of Lubrisyn gave twice the dose recommened. I could feel no difference with either horse. Both are mid to upper level dressage horses with known arthritis. With both horses I see and feel remarkable improvement with IV Legend. With the oral products I could discern no difference after the following trials. Hyalun-2 months. Conquer-two months. Lubrysin-one month.

I spoke with both of my vets about these products. Kent Allen is a team vet and sits on the USEF board, very well known and well respected sport horse vet at the Olympic level. Paul Anikas specializes in treating upper level dressage horses and treats a number of International FEI horses, this is his full time specialty. Both vets have told me I am wasting my money and to stick with the Legend/Adequan route. These two are tops in the USA and in their fields. I respect their opinions.

I realize for many people the oral routes are the most cost-effective route and some may see some benefit. I am in a different situation and am able to get my Legend and Adequan at cost. I have found FOR ME that if the oral products are not cost effective and do not give the desired benefit as compared with the Legend/Adequan solution they are therefore more expensive.

My point is NO GOOD RESEARCH HAS BEEN DONE. This is a multimillion $ business and it is not regulated or proven. How many of you have had your vet do a lameness exam and flexion tests on your horses before and after you have used the products for a few months?? What was the results?

[CHJoker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">as we all know horses guts do not absorb the same way that a human gut absorbs these products. The oral stuff has been proven to work for humans and dogs but not horses. The whole molecular weight issue.

The subject here is the benefits of oral HA for horses, not people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I read Pierce's study. He used it on foals with ephysisits. This is a totally different application than arthritis. Inflammation occurs in foals joints when they grow to fast or have uneven growth spurts or lack a particular mineral in their diet. I think this is a great finding and I am all for using the oral HA on a foal based on this results. IN fact, I will use it for this application. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmm....so you DO recognize that apparently, HA is absorbed by horses when taken orally? you just don't think that it helps with lameness?

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but that foal study (that apparently, even you agree with http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif) knocks your (and the majority of pros who don't think HA works) previous argument about why oral HA can't work (due to absorbtion issues) right out of the water.

I am glad, of course, that you found something that works for your horses (Legend). Good luck to you. But, I don't understand why you are taking other people "wasting their money" quite so personally.

The next few years, in terms of research, should definately be interesting.

And, I am wondering, how is it you get Legend at cost?

[Cowgirl]

I have not tried the LubriSyn or the Hyalun, but have tried other orals (Corta-Rx HA, Conquer and HylaMotion) and the Legend/adequan. I have to say that none of the orals worked as well for MY horse as Legend, BUT the orals DO stretch the shots for me. In other words, I can feel him getting stiff again about 2.5 weeks after his Legend shot and his windpuffs come back. With the oral supplement (I am using Corta Rx HA now), he stays supple and wind puff free between shots. So I know it works, just for my horse he'd probably need a dose SO HIGH to compete with the benefits of Legend that it would be cost prohibative.

I would try the Hyalun but the Corta Rx HA only costs me $20/month to feed and it works really great on my arthritic dog. It has only 25 mg HA per dose though.

I think it's great that you all are reporting on your results. I do think the problem with the orals is that it's so hit and miss--effective dosage varies for each horse, as well as which product is effective. I have a friend who uses MSM and didn't see any benefit until she upped her horse's dose to 40,000 mg/day. I think the results from Legend are more consistent, as in, it either helps or it doesn't.

[ltw]

CHJOKER:
I more than anyone would like to see these oral HA products work, but...... please hear me out for a minute.

I think it is interesting that Pierce found the oral HA helped to resolve some ephysitis in foals. The interesting thing with foals is that many get it as a normal growth process and also outgrow it on their own with no intervention. I think it is good news that maybe it helped, but would the foals in his study have resolved on their own like most foals do with slight diet changes and time? I am a breeder too, and would try it on a foal. But again, the absorption issue of a 100 lb foal versus a 1200 lb horse is different. I don't think the Pierce study proved that oral HA helps arthritis when applied to foals with ephysitis. It is two different diagnosis.

You asked why do I take it personally about people wasting money on these products. I will tell you why. I believe the neutraceutical industry has a moral and ethical responsibility to back up their claims. These companies as a whole industry are taking 100's of millions from consumers with no formal regulation to back their products.

I realize that the whole drug testing FDA process is cumbersome and expensive and we don't want to force these companies to go that route and run the price up on these products. But I believe this industry is SO unregulated and it has been proven time and time again that the dosages in the bottles of these products does not always match the label with many of these neutraceuticals.Many times they are watered down. Alot of claims are made and these companies fly under the wire of regulation and can very easily rip the consumer off.

Many people here said that they take these products and feel better. That result does not necessarily transfer to your horse. The neutraceutical is going to have a different effect on a human weighing 130 lb versus a 1400 lb warmblood. And the 1400 lb warmblood had a totally different digestive system.

There are a number of interesting articles in The Horse Magazine about this. Because of some of the fraud in the industry there is talk that many of these products will need more regulation as the consumer IS GETTING RIPPED OFF.

I believe if the neutraceutical industry wants to nip this problem they should form an alliance, and each company put up the money for one independent study to be done to prove it works in horses. If the industry did that then I believe the results would prove one way or the other what the real story is.

I know that NIH is now researching the oral HA products for humans. Because of the situation with Viox, Bextra and Celebrex (human arthritis medicine) causing heart problems and two of these three products being pulled from the market there is an outcry for the pharmaceutical industry to come up with other SAFE solutions for people. It would be nice if some of the NIH research could be taken up by the Veterinary community and analyzed to see if this stuff really works on horses.

[CHJoker]

ltw, how about we agree to disagree http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Buyer beware (Uh, and this goes for FDA approved DRUGS as well, what drug is 100 percent effective for all horses?). I personally look for nutraceutical products produced in a GMP plant, with guaranteed analysis, and ask for opinions on products. I just basically conduct my own "trial" with my own horse. That is not just for nutraceutical products, BTW. Saddles, bits, grooming products...the list goes on and on. They all claim to be the answer to your prayers and the best thing since sliced bread (as any good advertiser would insist on http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif)

These products DO have to prove safety, and that is good thing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Most fall under the "can't hurt, might help" category. (BTW, I work for a pharmaceutical company. Lets just say I am pretty aware of R&D and regulatory issues.)

At the end of the day, you try something, it doesn't work. You don't buy it again. You try something, it works very well. Great. Happy human, happy horse. You post on COTH about how great (or not) the product is http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

In the meantime, because access to the market is pretty open, lots of companies are entering into this lucrative field, competing against each other, bringing new formulations to the market, at lower prices, and faster than if FDA "drug" approval were required. Instead of the FDA, the consumer chooses which products work, and which don't, and at a much lower overall cost to the companies, which directly translate to lower costs to the consumer. That is of course, assuming a startup company could invest MILLIONS for a relatively small study (which is money gone, whether efficacy is proven or not). Additionally, how many new studies are initiated strictly BECAUSE of antedotal stories of a certain substances efficacy in a previously unexplored area? Once on the market, and in hundreds or thousands of horses, the results paint a much bigger picture than a clinical trial with 10 horses.

Yes, the downside of our current system is exactly what ltw says, unsubsantiated claims. But, really, is it THAT bad? Enough to warrant a complete overhaul of the FDA approval process? I personally have had no big issues (ie, dead or sick horses due to contamination or ingredients of nutraceuticals), and I have used ALOT of products over the years.

I live in a pretty tightly regulated country, you have to buy wormer from your vet, for God's sake (at minimum 30 CHF per dose). Even here, vitamins and most nutraceutical products are available freely, although typically quite expensive, because there have not been any safety concerns. I personally am happy to have such a choice of products in the US, Canada, and England to import, at affordable prices. I would hate to see that change, because in my experience, some of these products are excellent, and beneficial to my horse.

[Izabella]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
Izabella.

Confirmed dx - Bone chip. Had the surgery. Ended up with a degree 1 lamness. Thanks to LubriSyn is now completely sound, in work (dressage) and JUMPING &lt;---(she LOFFS it). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How long did it take to see results? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Izabella]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Izabella:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
Izabella.

Confirmed dx - Bone chip. Had the surgery. Ended up with a degree 1 lamness. Thanks to LubriSyn is now completely sound, in work (dressage) and JUMPING &lt;---(she LOFFS it). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read the entire thread and I'm amazed at the positive feedback for this product........I think I'm going to have to try it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ltw]

I do not want to see these neutraceuticals come under FDA as I said in my above post. But, the majority of prominent sport horse vets in our country do not recognize these products as providing adequate benefit in place of proper diagnosis and proven treatment.. Why? Because there is no research and proof, only anecdotal stories from horse owners. Therefore, the vet cannot guide the consumer on application, dosage, etc. I would like to see the equine vet community take a look at these products and initiate research so that they can guide their clients on the right time and application to use these.

To summarize some of the points I have tried to communicate on this thread, I point you to an article published in "The Horse Magazine":


Dr. Wayne McIlwraith, BVSc, PhD, DSc, FRCVS, DrMedVet (hc), Dipl. ACVS, director of Colorado State University's Gail Holmes Equine Orthopaedic Research Center, gave a talk on Licensed Medications, "Generic" Medications, Compounding, and Nutraceuticals—What has Been Scientifically Validated, Where Do We Encounter Scientific Mistruth, and Where are We Legally?


I suggest anyone feeding oral joint supplements take a look at this article and become an informed consumer.

I have attached the article:
" The long title was needed for the scope of the discussion, and McIlwraith did a thorough job of
educating the many veterinarians in attendance on the
current state of the industry.
He said many of the medications, supplements, and
additives available today to horse owners and
veterinarians can raise legal and ethical issues in the
industry. He said many unethical and/or unlicensed
products cause frustrations for manufacturers who spend
millions of dollars researching new drugs, just to have
illegal products claiming equivalency that take product
sales from licensed products. To add to the problem,
many of the illegal products are not efficacious, or
might not even contain the active ingredient.
Evidence-Based Medicine
"Evidence-based medicine" is becoming a common term, he
said. This is "the conscientious, explicit, and
judicious use of the current best evidence in making
decisions about the care of individual patients." He
noted that the underpinning of evidence-based medicine
is "the application of appropriate experimental designs
and statistics to medical research and medical
literature." He added that observational, descriptive,
and anecdotal studies do not provide proof of efficacy.
McIlwraith used his area of specialty to explain: To
prove efficacy of a treatment in joint disease, a
controlled experimental study with a consistent level of
disease (by a model) or an appropriately double-blinded,
controlled study with appropriate numbers are the only
options.
He noted that the literature on treatments of joint
disease "has a number of in vitro studies as well as
bioavailabliity and absorption studies as indirect
evidence of proof of effectiveness. Although such
studies can be useful pilot studies, they do not answer
the bottom-line question of efficacy in treating or
preventing the disease process in the living animal and,
therefore, they need to be carefully examined in that
light."
One of the big problems, said McIlwraith, is there is
little incentive for manufacturers to prove their
products.
FDA Licensing and Generics
"First and foremost," said McIlwraith, "an FDA-licensed
medication is legal. It has been subjected to an
approval process." An example of an FDA-licensed product
is intravenous sodium hyaluronic acid (HA). He said the
initial FDA approval of Legend was based on a
positive-controlled study of traumatic arthritis in a
group of horses compared with a group given
intra-articular HA.
He explained that after the federal patent expires on an
FDA-approved medication, any company can undertake the
process to get a license for a generic form of that
drug. "A true generic drug must have the exact chemical
formulation of the previously patented medication
(pioneer drug)," said McIlwraith. It is critical to
recognize that a true generic drug is a licensed drug
and has been through the FDA process. Representing any
medication as a generic that does not follow these
guidelines is illegal.
"Two common such misrepresentations involved the
products MAP-5 and Chondroprotec," noted McIlwraith.
"There are numerous instances of MAP-5 being represented
by distributors as generic Legend. In addition to it not
being a generic drug, it is not licensed as a drug (it
is only licensed as a device for extending semen).
"When a licensed medication is available, it is illegal
for any veterinarian to administer MAP-5
intra-articularly or intravenously," he stated. "MAP-5
is licensed as a semen extender. It is not licensed and
is illegal for any musculoskeletal use."
McIlwraith said Chondroprotec is licensed as a topical
wound treatment. "It has been commonly represented as
generic Adequan, but it is not," he stated. "This is
both illegal and unethical. The fact that the company
calls the product Chondroprotec (which implies cartilage
protection) and packages it in a container-closure
system that is identical to that used for an injectable
product is an extreme example of misrepresentation."
Nutraceuticals and Animal Supplements
An ingredient (vitamin, mineral, extract, metabolite,
etc.) that is legal to sell for human use is not legal
to sell for animal use, McIlwraith said. While the
widespread use of nutraceuticals is not necessarily
illegal, he said, "It does present a major area of
advertising misrepresentation and 'smoke and mirrors'
science." He added that not all nutraceuticals and
animal supplements are bad or illegal.
Many nutraceuticals or nutritional supplements marketed
for horses are illegal because the manufacturer has not
complied with FDA ingredient-recognition processes, not
completed ingredient-definition applications as
described by the Association of American Feed Control
Officials (http://www.aafco.org/), not followed state
licensing requirements, and/or made false claims on the
product label. He reminded the audience that such a
product (as opposed to a licensed drug) cannot make
medical claims, such that it can be used to remedy any
illness or problem.
McIlwraith said there seem to be two principal issues
with the lack of regulation of nutraceuticals and
supplements. The first is that this group of products is
relatively low on the FDA radar because the ingredients
are not being given to food animals. Second is that
there is no incentive for a manufacturer of, say, a
glucosamine-chondroitin sulfate product to get licensed.
"Such products are not proprietary, and other companies
can simply grab on to the coattails of the company that
has gone to the trouble of getting approval," he said.
Drug Compounding
"Compounding has always been a part of veterinary
medicine and remains of value," stated McIlwraith.
"However, there has been a proliferation of compounding
pharmacies and instances of unethical and possibly
illegal practices, including use of licensed drugs'
trade names."
He also mentioned the requirement of FDA-licensed drug
manufacturers to report all adverse reactions.
Compounders don't have that requirement. McIlwraith said
in his experience, companies with licensed medications
have stood behind the veterinarian when he/she has
encountered an adverse reaction.
Licensed Medications Vs. The Pretenders
McIlwraith then discussed several commonly used
medications and their levels of scientific proof.
HA is purported to improve lubrication of the joints.
McIlwraith discussed several different studies done
since 1970, and noted that in his clinical experience,
HA is useful for mild synovitis, but any condition
beyond mild synovitis would need adjunctive
corticosteroid therapy.
McIlwraith also discussed a study that looked at 49
randomized, controlled studies on humans on the ability
of intra-articular HA to relieve pain in knees with
osteoarthritis (OA). The conclusion was that compared
with placebo injections, the ability of intra-articular
HA to relieve pain was small. The authors of the report
also could not come to a conclusion regarding high
molecular weight HA having a greater effect than regular
HA, noted McIlwraith.
He said when intravenous HA (Legend) was introduced, he
was skeptical, but a controlled study in an equine model
showed it to be quite effective. The value of
intravenous HA for prophylactic use (to prevent joint
problems) is a little harder to prove, said McIlwraith.
In two studies, he said positive trends were noted, but
that wasn't positive proof of effectiveness.
An oral HA has been introduced into the market
(Conquer), and McIlwraith said that just showing
increased blood levels of HA after oral administration
is not evidence for efficacy of the product in joints or
for treating osteoarthritis.
McIlwraith also discussed non-steroidal
anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), corticosteroids, and
the compounding of corticosteroids. One study done at
Colorado State confirmed that injecting
methylprednisolone acetate (Depo-Medrol) into normal
joints damaged cartilage. He said the most commonly used
intra-articular steroids in horses have been carefully
evaluated, and reports of untoward effects are generally
fictitious.
He mentioned that a new topical NSAID called Surpass has
been scientifically validated.
Oral Nutraceuticals
While McIlwraith again noted that none of the oral
supplements or oral nutraceuticals are licensed, there
have been some studies done. "There have been a number
of scientific studies done with Cosequin," said
McIlwraith. "Most other products have simulated Cosequin
and attempted to compete on the basis of decreased cost
(with no proof of comparable efficacy) or other added
ingredients."
He said evidence of the oral absorption of chondroitin
sulfate has been shown in the horse. Studies also have
shown that a product with lower molecular weight is
better. He said glucosamine is absorbed by the horse,
but at a low rate. It is unknown if these rates of
absorption mean the ingredients are at a high enough
level to have pharmacologic action in the horse.
He said there are some problems with "truth in
advertising" with some nutraceuticals.
Take-Home Message
McIlwraith's take-home message after this long and
complicated discussion was simple: When equine
veterinarians are involved initially in the diagnosis of
a problem, the horse gets better care.

[Penthilisea]

Mr. Harvey horse continues to improve and stay consistently even behind. Now all that's left is residual muscle decay that we have to build up - the bones work right but the muscles around the area were almost atrophyed. I expect once we get the msuclualr issues resolved he will be not only 100% sound ( as he is now) but also able to easily move straight and even in each direction.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Izabella:

Confirmed dx - Bone chip. Had the surgery. Ended up with a degree 1 lamness. Thanks to LubriSyn is now completely sound, in work (dressage) and JUMPING &lt;---(she LOFFS it). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

About three days. Well. Read my first post... it goes into PAINFUL detail.

As far as all the conversation about the efficacy, ... well, "The Experts" can say whatever they want to. The proof for me is that she is sound. If it doesn't work for you, why rain on everyone else's parade?

[egontoast]

I like reading balancing views of this. I am using the hyalun but haven't stopped the monthly Legend so I don't know if I am throwing my money away or not.

I get nervous when I see nothing but raves about a product- brings out the sceptic in me-so I appreciate ltw's contribution to the thread. keeping an open mind, here, but still using the hyalun.

[findeight]

Well, we ran out of the LubriSyn at the barn and the mare was off for almost a week...the BO knew I had some at home and didn't want to order without checking with me, I was out of town.
Everybody noticed how stiff she was getting...and she did get a Legend shot about 3 weeks ago, 2 weeks before running out.

Two days back on the LS, she's back to normal. I'm down to every other month on the Legend IV and will, hopefully, be able to discontinue completely. Just don't want to move too quick in changing everything around.

My vet now recommends and sells it as an alternative to frequent IVs...and he is a noted High Performance horse man of impeccable reputation.

I skipped it for 5 days and my knees started hurting again, bad.

[Zig]

My Lubrisyn is on the way .. so I will chime in next week (after he has been on it for approximately three days), again at the 10 day mark, and at 14 days, and 21 days.

Now here is the "deal" with my big boy. He is seven years old... He is 17.3 hands, weighs approximately 1800 lbs. In his first life he was off the track (height and weight should be an indication as to why he was a reject) Second life as a hunter jumper and now .. we are swtiching over to eventing. He has had very few (one or two) soundness issues. One was due to being trimmed to short.. the other.. who knows!

He is stiff to the right. Has an occassional swell in his front left knee (that has not shown any lameness) to date - its been x-rayed and will be monitored due to his previous life.

Over the past two months we have gone through extensive stretching and bending exercises to supple him up a bit... he had accupuncture which I deem to be successful - combined with the training and the accupuncture his back is stronger.

I have researched and looked into every joint supplement known to man.. and after reading this post.. I have decided to go for the anecdotal "scientific" experiment. My primary goal is to use preventative measures to help my big boy... should I see added benefits.. I will be thrilled.

Stay tuned....

[RedMare01]

Getting ready to order some LubriSyn for the Red Mare in a couple of weeks...hope it works as well for her as it does for most of the horses here. Is morgensternassoc@aol.com still the only place to order it online? And if so, is his price competitive with most vets?

Thanks,
Caitlin

[Zig]

RedMare01

Check your PTs. I did not want to post cost info here. Although, I would be very interested in knowing what others paid.

[AWIP]

If you look back, I've already listed what I paid for mine. Here I'll re-list it


posted
Pricing and dosage comparison
- Conquer gel - approx $13 USD, 3 day supply, 100mg/day (10ml)
- Hyalun - approx $25 USD, 30 day supply, 5mg/day (5 ml)
- Lubrisyn - approx $66 USD, 30 day supply, 45 mg/day (15ml)
- Hylamotion - approx $45 USD, 30 day supply, 100mg/day (30 ml)

I also found a human source in Canada. $28 CDN for 60 capsules, 50mg HA & 450mg MSM/capsule
Break open a capsule and dump it into feed and I think this is the price & dosage winner!

[Oldenburg Mom]

Yup, it's also about 110 or so for a 60 day supply.

Zig, this is directly from Morgenstern ... and they supply the vets. If you're finding it elsewhere cheaper, PLEASE. PT me.

Thanks!

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by findeight:
Well, we ran out of the LubriSyn at the barn and the mare was off for almost a week...the BO knew I had some at home and didn't want to order without checking with me, I was out of town.

Everybody noticed how stiff she was getting...and she did get a Legend shot about 3 weeks ago, 2 weeks before running out.

Two days back on the LS, she's back to normal.

I'm down to every other month on the Legend IV and will, hopefully, be able to discontinue completely. Just don't want to move too quick in changing everything around.

My vet now recommends and sells it as an alternative to frequent IVs...and he is a noted High Performance horse man of impeccable reputation.

I skipped it for 5 days and my knees started hurting again, bad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ha! Let's just keep in mind, findeight, that oral hyluronic acid is throwing your money away because it doesn't work. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif (must be all in your mind ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif)

[Britedee]

There is a GREAT deal on Lubrisyn right now: check out the link below. I usually buy my cat food from this site, and I was running low. I received a 20% off coupon offer via email and just happened to browse the horsey sale items and found Lubrisyn! I am not sure if there is a way for new customers to obtain the 20% off coupon, but there is an offer for a 5% coupon on the shopping cart page. With the 20% discount, the 32 oz size + freight comes to 85.58. This is a great deal!! http://www.petfooddirect.com
Do a search for Lubrisyn.

[sophie]

Hi all,
Forgive me, I haven't had time to read the whole 17-page thread but I have a few questions, if some of you wouldn't mind answering...

I was just about to get more Adequan ( I only have 2 vials leftover from last Spring when she was recuperating from a "mystery" lameness) for my 7 yo Ottb when I happened to read positive comments on Hyalun, and I might try it instead.

This horse gets a daily joint suppl. (Glucosamine XL Plus w/MSM).

-Can I start her on the Hyalun while she's on the joint suppl?
-Is there a loading dose?
-Did people find that LubriSyn is a lot more effective than Hyalun?
And last but foremost:

- Is it REALLY tasteless and well accepted?

Thank you!

[sophie]

shameless bump http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

Sophie -

I'm a LubriSyn supporter ... I think it's better, but I'll probably get creamed by the Hyalun supporters! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

If you're using LubriSyn, do 1 week of 30 ml, then continue with 15 ml as the maintenance dose.

Yes it REALLY REALLY REALLY is tasteless and oderless. My girl will eat it without any problem whatsoever.

[Zig]

Oldenberg- No, I got it from Jeff as well. I am in the loading stage right now.. and due to the royal equine's size -- I have to give him twice the dosage....

Sophie - I agree -- Z can sniff out "poison" in anything.. and this, he just gobbles down...

[Fessy's Mom]

Sophie - the difference (I believe) between the Hyalun and Lubrisyn is just the daily dose - 5 mg/day with Hyalun and 45 mg/day with Lubrisyn. If your horse isn't that bad off, I would think the Hyalun would be fine. It wasn't enough for my guy, so I switched to the Lubrisyn and have seen great results.

As an update, Abe is over the thirty day mark on Lubrisyn and is walking sound ALL the time now and will throw in some sound trot strides occasionally, but even his lame trot strides have suspension in them now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif His canter is almost completely normal, with changes. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

The cool little things I notice now are that now that he's feeling so much better, he isn't coming in at night with any more bite marks from his rotten pasturemates because now he can get away! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif Also, that his feet are now the same temp at the end of the day now that he's using both legs more evenly. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I still don't plan on riding him until maybe this fall, and only if he's sound. But I will continue to trot him for 10 minutes or so 3 times a week on the lunge, per my vet's instructions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fessy's Mom:
... he's feeling so much better,... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Isn't this what it's REALLY all about. Congratulations! Feels good, doesn't it.

[sophie]

Thanks for answering!
I am reading this thread and the other one on arthritis with much interest. I just ordered Hylaun, so we'll see what happens.

My horse (7 yo Ottb, used for lower level eventing) isn't lame now (knock on wood) but at times, especially in deep footing, she takes a bad step behind. She is fine immediately after tho. But she really doesn't like deep footing, will not go as forward, and it's harder to get her "through" and consistent. So I am hoping the Hyalun will help.


I just hope she'll eat it!!!

I might even put the 4 yo on it too, just for kicks (she isn't on any suppl. for now).

So, I assume I can leave her on her other (pelleted) joint suppl (Glucosamine-MSM) for now?

Also, someone in this thread said they didn't give it everyday but still saw an improvement? (I board my horses and can't "supervise" suppl. intake at feed tim).

[*Simply Irresistible*]

Sophie - after I order the lubrisyn, I will only being giving it to my "pasture ornament" every other day. I will let everyone know how that "experiment" works. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

And, yes, someone on here gives it to her horse five times a week.

[findeight]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:

Ha! Let's just keep in mind, findeight, that oral hyluronic acid is throwing your money away because it doesn't work. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif (must be all in your mind ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it must be all in the horse's mind too....with just that pea brain rattling around there's certainly lots of room for loose thoughts brought on by anecdotal discussions http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

findeight ...


*snort*

[Goldylox]

Rush is going well on the loading dosage of the LubriSyn. He is getting it everyday and I have my horse to ride again. He dressage is improving everyday.
I hope to start over small jumps by next month. By keeping him on the loading dose I've had a lot of improvement day to day.
It's expensive, but it is working. No more jokes about me keeping a "pretty pasture ornament!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifNo insult intended for those poeple who have pasture horses on it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[bumknees]

Well I printed off ths entire thread for my Vet. He had not heard of it and wanted to read this thread. he has no internet access at his office/home .. He lives waaaaaayyyyyyy out in BFE... well I handed it to his wife/reseptionst and her eyes got wide.. you have any idea how many sheets of paper this 18 pg thread took? bout 75.
anyway since he wanted to study on it first, but until he can get it and see what happens he sugested to me to get Hyluan and nimbles and combine them. so today will be the first of both. on holding pattern until he reads and orders it...

[Gunnar]

hlnm, if you decide to get it the petfooddirect.com website has great price!!! Hugs to Duct Tape from Big "SOUND" Bodie!!!

[bumknees]

BIG HUGS to Bodie for being 'sound' sounds like this stuff is working really well for him. Let us hope that Dt can have simular results when he is put on it. right now comfortable would be a big step up.. He has his good days but those are out numberred by his not so good days where his head is bobbing at a slow methodical walk..
Will let you all know when I start him and see where we go from there.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Horseless ... we'll ALL be sittin' here waiting for the good news. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AND, won't you please please please please PLEASE share your vet's comments.

[bumknees]

Omom yes I will take meticilous notes when the vet comes out. His wife seemed really interested in the whole thig and we agreed that even if it dosent help with Dt he probably has a few horse where it would work wonders on. I will let you al know if he thinks it may not help and the reasons why. But me being the person am I may end up ordering it my self to see what happens.

eddited to correct a typo found by AWIP &lt;baaadddddd fingers ...now go to your room and wait until I come up there&gt;...

[AWIP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseless no more:
he probably has a few hores where it would work wonders on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

... I've heard of diversifiying your business interests but this is ridiculous http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Carry on all ... just couldn't resist.

[PaulaM]

unfortunately, I had to take my Canasta off the Hyalun. For some reason, she started to lose a dramatic amount of weight. We took her off it 3 weeks ago and she is finally starting to put the weight back on, but it has taken a dramatic increase in the amount of food she gets.

[Zig]

Oldenberg Mom: Did Jeff tell you about a new product that he is working on getting exclusive distributor rights to?

To everyone else: The royal equine has been on lubrisyn for five days. My loading dose is 1 ounce (30ml) twice a day -- (17.3 hand horse weighs approximately 1800lbs (off the tape so I guess)) I have not noticed a signficant change but its still early... I will comment that there has been a buck or two... not the malicious type..... he could be feeling better.... his trot is much more forward from step one than it has been in the past.. (previously.. a forward trot was not common until we were a couple of minutes (or 3-4 large figure eights) into it. I really dont expect to see much until week 3 or 4.

My trainer is going to ride him during this experiment.. to give a more objective opinion... I'll report her findings at the end of the week.

[LBM]

well count me in as well -- Blaze will have his first Lubrisyn 1 oz loading dose tomorrow. 6 yr old OTTB showing signs of 'ouchy' on his right front ankle - I'd rate it about a 2.5. He came off the track at the end of last year, had the winter off, and is now showing soreness as he starts into work.

I am going to have the vet out to do X-Rays etc to see what's going on. This will coincide pretty much with the starting of Lubrisyn so I'll have a formal 'before' evaluation. Of course there could be something goin on in there that a supplement can't fix but I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Of course we just switched to a new farrier so that's an extra variable.

Oh, he's currently on Reitsport which has Glucosamine, Chondroitin, and MSM

Will report back!

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zig:
Oldenberg Mom: Did Jeff tell you about a new product that he is working on getting exclusive distributor rights to? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No comment.

[Britedee]

Horse # 1- 14 y/o Selle Francais mare, 15 3 hands high and wide http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifis now on her second week of Lubrisyn. History: shows signs of being stiff in both hind legs, right is worse. She has flexed at a 2 or 3 on the right hind in the past. Hock is suspected. I have never x-rayed as she is "sound" for all intents and purposes and she is my "have fun" horse. I do mostly dressage work with her and some light trail riding. What upsets me is that she can barely walk downhill because of her stiffness. She does not bend her hind legs and pick them up, rather keeps them straight and drags them. This makes it a challenge to find suitable trails in my area! She also has bouts of stocking up on all four, but that happens rarely now that she is on 24/7 turnout. I had previously taken her off all glucosamine supps because I suspect she is Insulin Resistant and these products are not the best to feed to such horses. She was on just MSM and a small amount of flax. I have continued the flax but not the MSM. Thus far, I have noticed she is more forward, and I do see slight improvement when I am leading her downhill. The windpuffs in her legs seem to have decreased as well.

Horse # 2- 4 y/o Hannoverian gelding, around 17 hands, had OCD surgery in right hind fetlock last fall. On Lubrisyn for about a week. I have just started him and we are only lungeing and working in hand thus far. He does have a bit of a "hop" or gimp on the first trot circle tracking left. He does not show any signs of being off on the straightaway or while tearing around his pasture. I put him on the Lubrisyn after seeing some positive results with my mare and also in hope of keeping his joints in good shape. Since I was not seeing any real issues, and since he is not under saddle yet, I do not expect to have major "results" to post about him. What I might do is keep him on the Lubrisyn until he is going under saddle for a few weeks, then take him off of it as an experiment to see if he feels different/worse.

[At Liberty]

Well after reading the the entire post, I have decided I have to try the Hyalun. My old schoolmaster's arthritis is starting to get pretty bad and the vet just prescribed another supplement, which is helping, but it won't hurt to also try the Hyalun and see what happens. Keep you posted on this one.

He is 17.3 23yr old Han., since starting him the on vet supplement he as really improved, but he is still stiff, especially to the left, he was already on glucs and chrodritin in addition, so hopefully this will help as well and then we can wean off the other stuff.

Let you know how things go.

[pegasus209]

I am joining this thread late too.. my horse was just prescribed 3 IV Legend shots to begin next Monday. I read all the exciting results and made the mistake of calling my vet to see if he happened to carry it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif (thinking I could pick it up on my way home) boy-- he gave me a litany of remarks, but mainly how the molecular weight is not dense enough to do much good orally.(ie; take many months or weeks to build up enough in system to help) He hadn't had any success with the oral gels, but did admit that he hasn't heard of this particular one. (LubriSyn)
He DID say that after the first series of shots, my horse might do okay on the supplement. Worth a shot anyway IMO.
I want to keep up with this thread so I can see how everybody's horses are doing! -- I'll keep you posted on my guys progress after the initial shots, and hopefully start him on Lubrisyn then. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
My gelding is a 16 yo TW, 16.3 hands at approx. #1350.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Let's see if I can do some polls to help quantify this stuff.

[Kitty]

I just received my order of Lubrisyn and have what may seem to be a very very dumb question....how do you measure it? I bought the 32 oz twin-neck bottle. I know the loading dose is 30ml and maintenance dose is 15ml, but the bottle is marked in ounces. Not helpful. Am I missing something? Or do I have to go out and find some type of ml measure? Sorry for being so downright dumb here. By the way I have a 21 year old appendix gelding who is very very stiff, on weeking Adequan and daily Cosequin. And a 17 hand 8 year old WB recovering from stifle surgery, also on Adequan and Cosequin; hoping to prevent the possible bony changes which can follow this surgery.

[DebPaxhia]

Kitty asked: I just received my order of Lubrisyn and have what may seem to be a very very dumb question....how do you measure it? I bought the 32 oz twin-neck bottle.[/quote]


On one side of the twin neck bottle, you can squeeze, and the Lubrisyn will fill up the little chamber at the top. There are increments marked 30ML (loading dose) and 15ML (maintenance dose). Read the numbers from the back of the bottle. I hope this helps.

[Kitty]

Thanks Deb...I guess that shows just how much I truly need my reading glasses. I didn't see those numbers....

[kmp2707]

I have been reading this topic with great interest (all the pages!) So, I ordered and received my LubriSyn.

12 yr TB ex-eventer-had been on Adequan monthly up until last December. Shows no lameness, but is stiff behind and takes forever to warm-up and really get moving well.

15 yr. BWP mare. Had mysterious injury prior to be buying her one year ago. She is lame behind at trot and gets worse with work. Suspect a hip or lower back problem.

I started both on the loading dose (30ml) on Thursday pm.

For the people taking this stuff-how do you take it? In food/drink? How do you measure it? I tried it plain and in coffee http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[tjauction]

UPDATE: LubriSyn horses ran 1-2 in the Derby. Trainers John Shirreffs and Kiaran McGlaughlin both have their horses on the program.

Todd Pletcher, Dale Romans and Rick Dutrow have been using LubriSyn for over a year. Bobby Frankel has added LubriSyn to his daily regimen.

On the show horse side, Olympians Ian Miller, Todd Minikus and Lauren Hough are all on board.

The vet that owns Halstrum, manufacturer of LubriSyn, has worked for years to develop the most effective usage levels. Champions SPEIGHTSTOWN, ASHADO and KITTEN'S JOY, as well as Dubai World Cup winner ROSES IN MAY are among the Grade 1 Winners that have benefited from LubriSyn.

I have a client here at Charles Town that has 20 horses in training, mostly claimers. He tells me that he has eliminated any injectable joint supplements and has not injected a joint this year. Through the 1st session (Jan. 1 to Mar. 31) he was winning at a 41% rate. He has also been able to replace bute on some of his horses with a pre-race loading of triple the daily level.

[Oldenburg Mom]

tjauction,

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but just so you know, look at the top of your screen ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Buying/selling horses or promoting a business through the forums is strictly prohibited. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just don't want to see you get in trouble.

[Goldylox]

I want to know how much people are taking for themselves and how they get it down.
With or without food. And how much on the dosage??

[Gunnar]

I was wondering about the dosage too. How can my 1,500 lb horse take 15ml when some people are taking 15ml???? Got any answers anyone??

[tjauction]

Sorry, How do I edit this thing to take out the last paragraph.

[tjauction]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gunnar:
I was wondering about the dosage too. How can my 1,500 lb horse take 15ml when some people are taking 15ml???? Got any answers anyone?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For mammals abut 1 cc per 100 lbs is maintenance level. Double loading horses helps, even triple loading. Horses use what they need at harmlessly pass the rest. Depends o nthe severity of the osteo arthritic conditio.

It is great for dogs too. Small animal product should be out this summer with human product, in gel caps, to follow.

[welshcob]

I take 3ml per day, I have only taken aspirin for my back once or twice in the 6 weeks or so I've been taking LubriSyn. It's a miracle!! I haven't been so pain free in my back for 20 years.....

[misspriss]

To those of you taking it for yourselves, where do you get the supplement for humans?

[findeight]

You don't.

I figure I pay enough for the gallon and I and Fat Cat can use the same stuff. Cannot justify spending extra for the same stuff in a capsule when I already have a gallon of the stuff.

Conquer has an infomercial for their human HA capsules...and $40 a month for something I already have sitting around....nonsense.

Human dose is 3cc daily, use a syringe minus the needle...I guess about 2 tablespoons. Double the first 4 days to load.

[CHJoker]

Hi Guys,

Just checking in. This last week has been so busy! I saw the doctor over one week ago, and the xrays looked great. Everything is healed up the way it should (broken leg and ankle), and I was cleared for "full weight bearing", even though I had been doing just that for more than a week before the appointment. I just let my body tell me what I could, and could not do.

I am back to riding, as of Monday last week!! No problems, thank God.

I am still taking the Hyalun 5mg every day, plus I added 20 mgs of powdered HA (human supplement) and glucosamine, chronditon and MSM tablet (human) pretty recently. No pain at all, and although I won't be running any marathons anytime soon, I walk well now, and ride without problems.

I read an interesting article about how HA is a part of bone. I honestly do not know if the supplementation of HA helped at all, as I have never broken bones before. However, I had very little pain during my recovery, and am almost completely healed 7 weeks after the injury. Well ahead of my physiotherapists estimations. He is quite surprised.

I am just thankful to be able to ride again!

[Oldenburg Mom]

Can I please ask that everyone on this thread that have USED please try and answer the polls? Although it is grossly unscientific, perhaps we can accumulate a little data.

Just hoping ...

[LoriO]

for those using Hyalun check here for some good prices.

Hyalun at Horse Warehouse (http://americasequinewarehouse.com/cgi-bin/aew/phd.cgi?Item_Number=0473-30)

I have had my mare on the Hylasport from Horsetech with good results so far. Has anyone switched form using Hylasport over to either the Lubrisyn or Hyalon instead? If so, did you so any differences? Also did you just feed the Hyalun or Lubrisyn or did you feed that in addition to the Glucosamine/Chondroitin and/or MSM?

[rwaldron]

I have been using Lubrisyn for the last 6 weeks for me and both my horses. I am sold on this stuff. For myself I have 2 bad knees and have been on 6 Advil a night for the last 3-4 years. With this stuff I haven't had any Advil in over a month and have no pain in one knee and about 95% pain free in the other knee. My mare is not lame but just not soft and free. She had been on all of the different products out there. She has been on Conquer, Hylamotion and a bunch of the other stuff plus The Glucosomine and Condroditin and MSM for years. With Lubrisyn she is soft and floaty like she was years ago. The other products helped her but this stuff is over the top. My gelding is starting to move forward without a big fight. I personly had taken the human form of HA and it did not do what Lubrisyn does. I am pain free and am not on any Advil. If my horses feel half as good as I do.....well.
There is a new product coming out now that has more HA per dose than Lubrisyn and is supposed to cost the same amount. I have ordered some and am anxious to see how it compares.
I will post after I have tried it
rwaldron

[LBM]

So I got an advertisement in the mail yesterday from Jeff Morgenstern for a brand-new product "Hyaluronex" billed as the next generation oral HA in a "syrup" form.

Did anyone else get this or have any more info on how this compares to the Lubrisyn and/or Hyalun?

ps the envelope had a cool John Wayne stamp http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Miss Perfect]

I just put in an order for LubriSyn, after reading this thread. This forum convinced me to try flax/BOSS, which I'm so glad I did, so I can't wait to see how my aging boy responds to the Lubrisyn!

BTW, HorsePower.com (http://www.horsepowerplus.citymax.com/page/page/1407417.htm) has free shipping for all Lubrisyn products! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[ShowjumpersUSA]

After reading this thread I am wanting to order LubriSyn, but need to know if it can be given to a mare in foal or a breeding stallion who is also a showjumper. Anyone know?

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ShowjumpersUSA:
After reading this thread I am wanting to order LubriSyn, but need to know if it can be given to a mare in foal or a breeding stallion who is also a showjumper. Anyone know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Call and ask Jeff. 513 877 2625

[egontoast]

He is now pushing the Hyaluronex pretty hard but I'd like to see more info on it first.

[WonderPony]

I ordered Hyalun for Katie the WonderPony and me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Last summer, she started switching half a lead over jumps and not wanting to pick up her right lead. The chiro and vet checked her and she failed her flexion tests, but I don't remember where. She's on Artharelief and injectable glucosamine. I think we would be ok for just dressage and hacking out on these, but we want to jump, so I'm adding HA. I had her on Hylamotion over the winter and noticed her playing a alot, but ran out. I did a few crossrails the other day and she switched leads in front on one of them. No more jumping until the HA arrives.

*I* have a bad back (exacerbated by jumping http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) and a funky knee. I'm hoping the HA will take care of these. How much Hyalun for a human?

WP

[findeight]

Since HA is a naturally occuring carrier for moisture in the body, I don't think it would matter in the nursing mare.

I just was looking at "O" magazine on the plane last nite and there was a huge ad for Perscriptives new age fighting moisturizer with...tadatada..Hyalauronic Acid to "carry the moisture into the skin". At about $80 an ounce.

That $300+ I just paid for a GALLON of the stuff ought to keep the mare, Fat Cat and myself creak free plus, ladies-I am telling you AGAIN-a few drops with the cheapo moisturizer from the drug store and...only your vet knows for sure http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[kmp2707]

I also have good results to report. TULT!
My BWP mare has been intermitently lame since I bought her and after 1 week on LubriSyn, she seems sound when free longing. I also palpate her back and previously she would almost always drop her back in pain-she didn't flinch at all last night. I will ride her this weekend and see if her under saddle behavior has improved.

TB Gelding is about the same, but he wasn't really lame and I haven't ridden him since last week (been concentrating on my greenie for her first show this weekend).

Tina

[dehere98]

Okay, I've read through most of this thread and you can count me in. I'm ordering the Hyalun because it's cheaper and seems to be producing the same results.
Will get back with my stats once I've started the TB on it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[rottielover178]

After doing some unscientific research of my own, I ordered LubriSyn today. My horse is a 16.2 quarter horse that does hunter on the flat. (AQHA) He steps a bit short at the slow jog, but is fine when trotting out. His hocks and stifles are fairly clean. He doesn't have a great work ethic, and I'm wondering if he is sore and this may help him. I'm going to take it for myself too as I have neck/back problems and fibromyalgia. At the show this weekend, my knee hurt so bad I thought I wasn't going to make it through the class. I'm anxious to continue reading everyone's results. What are the best prices that you all have found? I paid $120 (included shipping) on the 32oz. size. If it works, I'd like to get the gallon next time.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Gosh, isn't it great when something advertised actually WORKS like they say it does?

Again, I think we've had only two, maybe three "It didn't help" or "Made my horse nuts." so I think it's helping the majority of people that use it.

Cool! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[BeautifulMare]

can i ask what the best price that anyone has found for the LubriSyn syringe is? and where? i really want to try it on my mare for a month and see if it helps her at all but i dont have much money to spare for experimentation [ill find a way if it can 'fix' her]...

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BeautifulMare:
can i ask what the best price that anyone has found for the LubriSyn syringe is? and where? i really want to try it on my mare for a month and see if it helps her at all but i dont have much money to spare for experimentation [ill find a way if it can 'fix' her]... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You do know that LubriSyn has a money back guarantee, right?

[BeautifulMare]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BeautifulMare:
can i ask what the best price that anyone has found for the LubriSyn syringe is? and where? i really want to try it on my mare for a month and see if it helps her at all but i dont have much money to spare for experimentation [ill find a way if it can 'fix' her]... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You do know that LubriSyn has a money back guarantee, right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif i didnt, actually...do i have to buy it from a certain place to get the guarantee??

EDIT: are all the LubriSyn users here using the liquid form? is anyone using the gel in the syringe? i ordered that one and im wondering now if i should have gotten the liquid instead...

[LessIsMore17]

Forgive me for not reading back over all the posts, but I had a quick, specific question for you all...

Do you supplement the Lubrisyn with other joint supplements such as Cosequin, Flex Free, Joint combo, etc?

[Grasshopper]

Okay...just got my Lubrisyn in the mail today, so I'm gonna join the TULT tomorrow! (BTW, where's that poll that was mentioned? I'm willing to participate but am hampered by my cluelessness http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

So, essential facts: 12 yo 16.2 TB mare, have had her for just over 4 years, had a few starts on the track as a 3-yo and then moved on to an eventing career. Also did the 4' jumpers. A bit long through the back and her neck is a teeny bit lowset, but powerful hind end--ie, prefers to launch rather than lift, for instance into canter transitions...

Has had a tendon injury and a back injury in the time I've had her, =10 or 11 months of layup (small paddock) + at least a year total of what I consider "rehab" (ie little or no jumping, lots of trotting).

Had mild ankle changes when I got her, so have kept her on glucosamine for most of the past 4 years, and at some point added MSM--she gets 10g of each once/day. Definitely a difference when I run out and she doesn't get them for a few days.

Is doing very well now, but still starts out a tad stiff and not tracking up great. She also has a slightly sticky stifle, not sure if it's loose or arthritic, but hills help (lots).

Since the back injury, have had a hard time getting that balanced, adjustable canter that means she's carrying herself behind. Is slowly getting better, and her trot often feels just awesome now (once we're warmed up)! Oh, has been back in work for over a year since the back injury, done a couple Novice events and one Training CT. Gets chiro regularly.

Basically, am trying the Lubrisyn to see if it makes any difference. The mare loves her job and loves to work, so if this will help keep her sound and happy, I can manage it better than Legend shots, for instance. I tried the Hylamotion, but didn't notice any drastic changes.

I'm going to give it a month (well, I guess 3 weeks before I have to decide whether to reorder), keep her on glucosamine and MSM, partly to keep everything else the same and partly b/c they're relatively cheap (buygpdirect.com !) and the gluc at least (I think?) is a building block...

Oh, and since we're in CA, she's either in a stall or small paddock most of the day. I take her out for handgrazing when I can and incorporate 20-30 min walk hack (on hills) as warmup most days.

I will report back after the 3-day loading period, since her half-lessee is riding Thursday and I'll have a dressage lesson Friday, so trainer can give any input.

[Oldenburg Mom]

JMHO,

If the horse does well on the Legend shots, it will probably do well on the LubriSyn (I've switched to Hyluronix) which SEEMS to be the case.

Let us know how it goes ...

I've bumped the three polls up again.

[findeight]

And an update on my mare..one of the original test dummies from Feb. I think.

We were on monthly Legend IV, GLC5500 for gluc and chondroitin, MSM and a really cheap but good hoof supplement.

Dropped to 8 weeks on the first Legend following the switch. Saw little or no difference so NO more Legend.

Switched off the pricey GLC to Missing Link Plus glucs about 3 weeks ago. Mare is jumping 2 or 3 days a week prepping for shows so if it was going to make a difference, we should be seeing it.
We see NO CHANGE.
We'll keep the MSM but the flax in the ML should replace the hoof stuff. Will wait on that though till fall.

So, we have gone from $90 a month for the Legend and $69 from Smartpak to $0 and $46 from Samrtpak and the mare is going as well as she ever did.

She still benefits from bute after jumping or making a fool of herself in the field but nothing like she used to need.

[Gunnar]

OK I am trying Lubrysin on myself too. I have so many aches, pains, issues.These are exacerbated by riding, go figure!!! I took it yesterday and I seem to be better already. But I will say the bone on bone feeling (what a sound) in my knee was still there as I climbed the 5 floors at work. I will let know how I fare.

[bumknees]

Vet came out yesterday to give Dt his WNV. we talked about the lubrisyn and he said 'it couldnt hurt if you wnat to try it go ahead and order it and let me know.' this was after we watched Dt go from the 'ooooo I hurt soooo bad' lame trot to a nice rounded working trot with out a hint of a limp... either my guy should be up for an oscar award or with all the unk going into him somethign is working so as soon as pay day rolls around I'm going to order it from the place that Steph posted..
Oh yeah bout the no limp trot I have been noticing this for a while and i guess it didnt really click until the vet pointed it out...
Should be about 3 weeks before i can order it so will let you all know when i get it and how he does on it.

[Gunnar]

hlnm, by the gallon it is more reasonable but by the qrt it is still pretty good. I have been spending like crazy lately so I too ordered the 32 oz but next time I will do the gallon (it works out to about $90 a Qrt by the gallon, which is 2 months maintenance dosage!!) I hope DT continues with his good trotting. Bodie is doing very well, seems to be staying sound ( i watch like a hawk and when riding I am constantly feeling for something but he is just physically weak) Even better is his mind is very good!!! I basically have a different horse now that he lives outside.

Yahoo

[oldgraymare]

I started reading this thread when it first started and when I was at the Ohio Equine Affaire this year, I found a booth that had Hyalun for sale. So I bought a three month supply and started my 20 yr. old arthritic gelding on it the middle of April.

I haven't seen any really GOOD results in the month and a half he's been on it, so am thinking of changing him over to LubriSyn to see if that makes a difference. (I read someplace on this thread that if the Hyalun isn't strong enough, try the LubriSyn.)

Could someone give me the best place to buy the LubriSyn?

Thanks.

[Oldenburg Mom]

I've switched to Hyluronix ... which is about the same thing, but IMHO, better. Call Jeff at 513-877-2625. He should be able to help.

[chism]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
I've switched to Hyluronix ... which is about the same thing, but IMHO, better. Call Jeff at 513-877-2625. He should be able to help. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you mentioned this in the last 20 pages, my apologies...Why have you switched to the Hyluronix? How does it compare to the Lubrisyn price wise?
I have a horse on Cosequin currently and it really seems to help. I would also like to know if those of you who feed the Lubrisyn and feel it works are also doing any other joint supplements in conjunction.
Thanks

[dehere98]

Bought my Lubrisyn today and am starting first 30cc dose May 28. TULT

Horse is 7YO OTTB
Grade 1/3 lameness that he works out after about 10 minutes of warm-up.
Diagnosis, mild arthitis.

[egontoast]

I guess I am curious too. If Lubrysin is as good as it appears from this thread, why change?

If it is the same as with human supplements for arthritis, it's a very individual thing so why change if it is working?

[Sannois]

WOW This thread is huge, And I have not really been involved. Could this be my geldings answer??? Hes 17 this spring, An OTTB. I have had him since he was 9. He evented at Beginner Novice and did Dressage up until this year. quit jumping him last fall. Had his hocks injected after he failed a flexion test with my Vet. on his right hock.. Moderate on the left. Hock injections made a big difference.
The real issue it seems is his arthritic knees. He has limited range of motion in his right one. ie when you pick the foot up it should fold closed to the upper leg.. like bending your elbow to your forearm. He has about a 2 inch gap. I was going to just find him a trail home, But I really am more attatched than I thought. For the past three weeks, I have ridden him maybe 4 times. No real demanding work. He does not have that slight hitch in front going to the right anymore. I have not given him any bute, which he was getting every day for a week or so. Then every other day. He is out of supps currently. I have been giving him msm Devils Claw and Yucca And MVP Glucosamine sulfate. Cant say I saw a huge difference. Vet suggested injecting his knees. I really want to keep him cause he is a super fun trail horse, much more than a Dressage horse. Ring work bores the heck out of him. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif What I am wondering is What do you think either of these products might do for him?? And for my knees! my creeky 47 yr old knees really bug me! Would love your input.. Anyone! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Sannois]

Bumping for anyone! Maybe I would be better starting a new topic?? I know the subject gets talked about alot! Thank you in advance to anyone with advise or suggestion or opinions

[Sannois]

Bumping one last time! Anyone??

[CHJoker]

Paging OM, Pagin OM...


What is the hyaluronix? How does it compare? price wise? composition wise? mg wise?

Inquiring minds want to know http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Grasshopper]

First update, day 5 of TULT for my mare.(See background p. 20 of thread.)

Started loading dose of 30 ml on Wed, then dropped down to 15 on Sat. Didn't ride Friday, then yesterday she was very fresh and acting like a dingbat! Couldn't tell if the spring in her step was due to all that natural impulsion or to Lubrisyn, but worked her patootie off.

Went out again today expecting a slightly stiff pony, but she was better than expected. Hacked out for about 1/2 hour, just walking on varied terrain (our usual warmup), then started a short (1/2 hour) flatwork session in the ring. My, did she feel good! Was really using her back and carrying herself in trot, then liiiifted into our canter departs rather than launching forward, and stayed uphill, light and balanced (rather than getting long and flat after a few strides)... It was a thing of beauty. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I think her front end came a good foot off the ground in the departs.

I tried not to overdo it as her muscles obviously have to adjust, but I do think the Lubrisyn is doing something good. We will see how her jumping feels later this week...

[findeight]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sannois:
Bumping one last time! Anyone?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try it. Can't hurt and might help quite a bit.

Folks may find other products for a better price or that are available locally and more convenient...but we know the LS works in the recommended dosage so start there.

[timedjumpoff]

Just as I'm aobut to give Lybrisyn a try, per OMOM's constant badgering!, I see OMOM has gone and switched to hyaluronix (without telling me). Hmmmmmmm What say you, OMOM?

I've hesitated to switch from the Hylamotion that my 20-year old mare has been on for over a year because the results have been so positive but OMOM swore the Lubrisyn is better.

Due to arthritic hocks complicated by a torn suspensory ligament in the hind, she seemed rideable following a 2-year total layoff,
but was still very stiff and required at least 20 mins. walking before you could even ask for the trot. After we had her hocks injected, I tried ALL the joint supplements on the market in every conceivable combination but didn't really see any difference, the stiffness being more or less depending on weather/turnout conditions, only now the right side was worse
(suspensory problem side) rather than the left side (the worse of the hocks problems).

When HA came on the market, I decided to try it
and looked to find the largest (most concentrated) dose available which I found in Hylamotion. To see if it did any good by itself, I took her off all the other stuff (glucosamine/condroitin, etc.) except for the
MSM, and gave her about 25% more than the suggested daily dose of the Hylamotion.

I don't know how long until I could really feel an improvement (maybe 1-2 months) but it was the FIRST time I ever felt a difference and it continued to improve to the point where walk time was cut down to 5 minutes and trotting was only a bit stiff in the corners for 5 - 10 minutes. After the canter, her trot was forward and flowing and she was coming under herself very nicely and we were about to start her jumping again.

Now here's the kicker, due to a series of tooth extractions and subsequent nasty persistent sinus infections, the mare spent a total of NINE months of the past year in hospitals, 6 of which there was virually NO turnout. She went back and forth a few times and each time she came home, I found that thanks to continuing the Hylamotion/MSM while she was hospitalized, her movement did not deteriorate to any great extent despite several surgeries/layups and lack of exercise or any turnout.

When I started to ride her after the last 3 month confinement over the winter, she was a bit stiff to start (but still no where near what it was before the HA supplement). Now it was her stamina (lack thereof) that was more of a problem. My vet recommended giving her 8 Adequan shots to help with the return to work which we just finished and she feels fantastic.

But I know it was the Hylamotion that helped make that possible over 9 months of inactivity.

Now that I've read some neagtives about the Nutrisyn, I'm reluctant to switch. You know, the old "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" idea.

BTW, My husband who has had bad arthritis from racing motorcycles when he was young and breaking half the bones in his body is like a new person since i put him on the same supplement regimen as the mare...only in human
format:

"INJUV" hyaluronic acid - 2 capsules (70mg. each) twice a day
MSM - 1000mg capsule once a day

[oldgraymare]

Well, I think Oldenburg Mom took a vacation away from her computer for the holiday weekend and that's why she hasn't been around to respond to why she switched from LubriSyn to the Hyluronix.

I'd be more than willing to start with the LubriSyn and see if I could get better results than with the Hyluran, but could someone please post the best place to buy the LubriSyn??

Thanks.

[mmaurer]

how about the best places to buy both the hyluran and teh lubrisyn, I have a 17 yr old mare I want to put to work and I know she has been off for about 5 yrs..as I plan on jumping I want to start her on it now..any ideas of best $$ in US vs. Can?

[tjauction]

Hyluronix is run by a former employee of Halstrum, LLC. Halstrum is the company that produces LubriSyn and holds the patent for Oral HA.

LubriSyn is the product that is being used by more race horses trainers each day. LubriSyn users include Todd Pletcher, Bobby Frankel, Rick Dutrow, Dale Romans, John Shirreffs (trainer of Ky Derby winner Giacomo), Kiaran Mcglaughlin (trainer of Closing Argument, 2nd Ky Derby), Mark Hennig (trainer of Eddington, winner of the Pimlico Special) and more.

LubriSyn Champions include Eclipse Champions Speightstown, Ashado and Kitten's Joy and Dubai World Cup Winner, Roses In May.

LubriSyn users in the show horse world include Lauren Hough and Todd Minikus.

LubriSyn is also used by Reining Horse Trainer, Shawn Flarida, winner of the 2004 NRHA Futurity and 2005 NRHA Derby.

Halstrum is owned by a leading lameness vet who has spent years field testing LubriSyn. LubriSyn is a proven product with a growing following among horsemen in nearly every discipline and around the World.

[Fessy's Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mmaurer:
how about the best places to buy both the hyluran and teh lubrisyn, I have a 17 yr old mare I want to put to work and I know she has been off for about 5 yrs..as I plan on jumping I want to start her on it now..any ideas of best $$ in US vs. Can? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never had any luck getting through to the website other people have posted here to get the Lubrisyn, so I found PetFoodDirect.com selling the Lubrisyn for very comparable prices. I use the gel and paid $64.99 for each tube plus $6.95 shipping. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[JumpingPaints]

Someone asked a couple of pages ago, which was better - Lubrisyn liquid or gel. Does anyone have any input here?

[Fessy's Mom]

I don't think there's a difference, just in ease of use. For me, the gel is easier because my guy dribbles his grain and I never know if he's getting his supplements. So I "core" out a carrot and squirt the small amount of gel in there and he eats it right up. But others have said adding the liquid to grain is easier for them.

So I'd say it depends on your horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[egontoast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Just as I'm aobut to give Lybrisyn a try, per OMOM's constant badgering!, I see OMOM has gone and switched to hyaluronix (without telling me). Hmmmmmmm What say you, OMOM? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


She's a obviously a supplement wh*re !

[Penthilisea]

Just a quick update: Harvey is well into month two of Lubrisyn- he is 100% sound- there is no work I can do that shows his issues. I think it's been a combination of things but I credit the lubrisyn as a MAAJOR factor and I tell EVERYONE about it! The only reasons I am not trying the new stuff is that I bought a gallon of the lubrisyn after month one- once it runs out I'll see what Jeff suggests.

[BeautifulMare]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fessy's Mom:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mmaurer:
how about the best places to buy both the hyluran and teh lubrisyn, I have a 17 yr old mare I want to put to work and I know she has been off for about 5 yrs..as I plan on jumping I want to start her on it now..any ideas of best $$ in US vs. Can? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never had any luck getting through to the website other people have posted here to get the Lubrisyn, so I found PetFoodDirect.com selling the Lubrisyn for very comparable prices. I use the gel and paid $64.99 for each tube plus $6.95 shipping. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you mean horsepowerplus.com? i got mine from them, but i got billed wrong [$132 instead of $88? (it was $66 but i paid $16 extra for second day air shipping) i dont think so http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif] and am going to have to sort it out, so im not sure i would recommend them...

oh, and i also ordered the gel and ended up with the liquid pint...

[Fessy's Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
do you mean horsepowerplus.com? i got mine from them, but i got billed wrong [$132 instead of $88? (it was $66 but i paid $16 extra for second day air shipping) i dont think so http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif] and am going to have to sort it out, so im not sure i would recommend them...

oh, and i also ordered the gel and ended up with the liquid pint... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I remember when that site first sent up, it crashed soon afterwards because of order-overload. That scared me off from the start. I did a search for Lubrisyn and it came up on petfoodirect.com through shop.com (it's kind of like amazon, they sell from all different websites). I ordered it last Tuesday and got it yesterday. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Gunnar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by royal militron:
OK I know this is probably in this thread somewhere, but I can't locate it in teh whole 20 or so pages. There is a 16 oz bottle and 32oz bottle.. how long do these last?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

RM, The maintenance dose is 1/2 oz a day so do the math. The 32 oz bottle will last 64 days with no loading in the beginning. I gave my horse loading dose of 1 oz for 1 week. He was not on Legend before. The gallon price at Petfooddirect.com is the most economical I have found!!

Good luck!!!

[Gunnar]

Wanted to update on Bodie and I.

Bodie is almost 2 months into Lubrysin and doing very well. He has yet to take another bad step. I will admit he is in Rehab and just trotting but he has come up lame in the past. I have been trying out his knee with a few single trot poles and some tighter circles. So far so good. I am still really kind of afraid to canter as that seems to be hard on him. He does canter on his own now when running and leaping about so he should be better prepared than when he lived in a stall. I am feeling better about the canter with the Lub.

I am very pleased with how his legs look with not as many fillings etc. My friend made the comment "wow Bodie's legs got over that elephantitis" (not that bad, but last summer Bodie went thru a swelling period where his sheath was swollen and his legs were more stocked up than usual)

Now on to me. I have been taking Lub for about 7 days and will say that my bad knee is better, my hands are great, my hips are great, my elbows are better, even my groin (Bodie is a wide body and I get sore) from riding seems better. I have even been riding more on a cutting horse and would expect to be more sore. Yahoo I am less sore. My knee is an ACL reconstruction knee that is perpetually bad. Now it is almost normal. I walk the 5 flights of stairs at work and today I really noticed a difference in the pain and the sound of bone on bone was less noticeable.

I am a happy camper!!!

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by egontoast:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Just as I'm aobut to give Lybrisyn a try, per OMOM's constant badgering!, I see OMOM has gone and switched to hyaluronix (without telling me). Hmmmmmmm What say you, OMOM? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


She's a obviously a supplement wh*re ! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why thank you eggy. What a charming thing to say!

[egontoast]

How much Lub are you taking each day?

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CHJoker:
Paging OM, Pagin OM...


What is the hyaluronix? How does it compare? price wise? composition wise? mg wise?

Inquiring minds want to know http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry,... have been kind of under the weather. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I originally found out about LubriSyn from FindEight ... THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. In usual fashion, however, I wanted more information, and wanted to see some more technical information ... see if there was any hard science behind their claims.

To make a long story short, I am seeing more hard science (specifically on absorption and absorption rates) with the Hyluronix as well as more research. Less anecdotal. This is quantifiable... something I value. I like the idea that they've tried to do the research ... kind of like Cosequin did.

AND, I think they are continuing. Anyway, JMHO.

[egontoast]

I was replying to Gunnar. I did not see your posts OM. I guess I forgot to turn the page.

[Gunnar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by egontoast:
How much Lub are you taking each day? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Egg, I seem to have been doing a loading dose on myself as I have been pouring some out of the 15 ml measurement but I am planning on swicthing to 3cc now after my 6cc loading dose. This seems to be the dose humans are taking!!

I can also update that my bad knee is 1000% better. I am somewhat shocked but so happy. Last night I gardened and bent up down around etc and today no soreness. I realized I was squatting almost to the ground with that knee which I have not done in 11 years since I injured my knee.(bending with weight on my knee has been an impossibility, which makes wrapping horses an ordeal) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Today up the stairs no pain in that knee. Even the tendonitis seems to be alleviated.

Yahoo!!!!

[kmp2707]

Just wanted to update on my BWP mare. She has been on LubriSyn for a little less than a month now and previously was quite lame at trot, and ouchy in her back when palpated. I finally rode her last night and she didn't pin her ears for the first time since I have owned her when I asked for the trot. We even had a few nice strides of canter-she offered it very willingly. She used to always pin ears, hump back, and refuse to go forward. She seems to be MUCH better!!! My pasture ornament can now be a riding horse.

[Luie's Person]

Jan/Feb '05: After 1 1/2 yr off and MIRACLE recovery from a detatched suspensory @ point of origin, the 14 YO boy was 'sound enough to figure out if he was really sound'. He had been on Hylamotion since Aug, and I did see a big difference w/ that in a very short period of time. Still had 'glitchy days' on the bad RH, and warming up was always grueling (both of us!). HAD to see if the Lubrisyn would help after reading this interesting thread.

June '05: We are finishing week 2 (both of us). Didn't do a loading dose as he had been on the Hylamotion. Saw improvement w/in 1st week. Watched my trainer/rehab-guru ride him today and IT WAS REALLY THRILLING!! He was ready to work!! He 'sits down'!! The departs are collected!! The shoulders are going forward and up!! I am so excited...just don't know what else to say. Am now tapering off the remaining Hylamotion and Cosequin. I'll keep him on the Nutrena 'HorseSense', Yucca, MSM, probiotics, whole oats and great hay. I'm in love with the world when the boy is happy! And my own elbow will now be spared the needle! I made the mistake of ordering the gel for us both, but finally figured out that the 'human' gel dose it 1/2 tsp.
If anyone out there is waivering, I encourage you to take the plunge!! There is a $ back guarantee, so what the heck http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif.

[egontoast]

Guunar, what's that in mls? should I take 5 mls a day? Hope no drs are reading this! PM if you'd rather.

[Gunnar]

http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm

I used this to convert 3 cc to 3 ml. I guess they are the same in volume. I am going to use a 3cc syringe to draw out of my quart container.

I love this stuff and only hope it makes my horse feel as good as it does me. I am not a taker of things so this is unusual for me to do but I am glad I did.

Hope it helps you too!!!

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by egontoast:
Guunar, what's that in mls? should I take 5 mls a day? Hope no drs are reading this! PM if you'd rather. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh...My...Goodness. The mighty Eggy has been swayed? My mouth is hanging open, my eyes are bugged, and my brain is fried. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Of course, whether this is due to egontoast's being convinced or not is entirely another matter. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif]

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Luie's Person:
I am so excited...just don't know what else to say. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is EXACTLY how I feel as well! Congratulations, and welcome to the club!!! Ain't life great?

[Oldenburg Mom]

I know you're all going to scoff ...

But it looks like hyluronic acid CAN and DOES affect tendons.

This is an excerpt from a large article on "How to Perform Ultrasound-Guided Tendon Splitting and Intralesional Tendon Injections in the Standing Horse"

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">... The next stage of therapy is aimed at improving the rate and quality of tendon repair. Use of hyaluronic acid injections locally peritendinously and/or intralesionally improved histologic appearance and maturation of tendon fiber repair at 8 weeks after injury in a collagenase model of tendon injury. Hyaluronate acts as an anti-inflammatory agent reducing the production of inflammatory mediators and has also been shown to have a direct stimulatory effect on migrating repair cells promoting cellular differentiation into collagen-producing cells. Based on the existing evidence, it appears that hyaluronate may be beneficial to the repair process after acute tendonities and should be used soon after injury, although further investigation is warranted. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Holy Smokes. Did I get this right? It can help repair tendons?

[joycesgrooming]

This Lubrisyn sounds increddible! My oldest dog is 12 and Cosequin is not helping. Was going to get Rimadyl or something from my Vet, but maybe I should try this. Has anybody ever tried this on an older arthritic dog? Do you think I should try it?

Thanks, Joyce

[egontoast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Oh...My...Goodness. The mighty Eggy has been swayed? My mouth is hanging open, my eyes are bugged, and my brain is fried </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm. I don't know what you mean. My horse has been on legend IV for a year, doing well , but it's expensive. I tried the hyalun but didn't stop the legend so I can't comment on whether it helped. I have just started the Lubrysin for my horse after reading all the Raves.

Now people are switching to something else. Wondering why.

Mighty eggy? Care to explain?

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by egontoast:
Mighty eggy? Care to explain? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a COMPLIMENT, dear.

I've always thought you're pretty pragmatic ... if you've been convinced, then I think that the information is pretty persuasive. This is a good thing! Especially since you are (apparently) going to try a swig or two yourself!

[ltw]

The Godfather of tendon splitting surgery research is Dr. Nat White. He has been running a research program at Marion Dupont Equine Hospital in Leesburg VA on suspensory tendon splitting for a few years now. He calls it a Fasciotomy (sp?) .

Last I checked with him in early April, 2005 he had done close to 80 tendon splitting surgeries under his research. He does not use HA, Stem Cells or any other component when doing the surgery. In fact, he says putting any component into the tendon during the surgery is useless as the wound is left open to drain, it is not stitched. He says any thing like HA or stem cell will not stay in the area with the technique he uses.

I know personally about this as one of my horses went through the surgery and was part of the research program. I asked him to also add the stem cells but he would not do it because of what I described above.

My horse healed 100% sound with no lesion but it was a very long recovery period. I do use Legend IV on him now.

Maybe other surgeons use a different technique where HA could be used.

[Sannois]

Can you nice folks give me an idea of Cost for these Products, And how much I would have to give my horse?? Heres the next problem, How can I administer it, BO is really a pain, he will not feed any Liquid supps??? !!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Cowgirl]

A question: Have any of you switched to the LubriSyn or Hyalon from a 100 mg HA daily oral supplement? Like from Conquer or Hylamotion? Are you seeing a big difference?

I understand the argument re. molecular weight. I switched from a 100 mg HA oral to another Oral that had 100 mg HA and was cheaper and I saw no change. Then the product I switched to reduced the HA from 100 mg to 25 mg and I did note a change. So I am skeptical that a lower amount of HA can be as effective as a 100 mg/day product.

Comments?

[Gunnar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sannois:
Can you nice folks give me an idea of Cost for these Products, And how much I would have to give my horse?? Heres the next problem, How can I administer it, BO is really a pain, he will not feed any Liquid supps??? !!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I put Bodie's liquid in his little dry bag of TLC he gets each day. It soaks in with no taste and hopefully he doesn't drop those exact pellets when he is eating them. That is why I laugh when I see those sound chickens at the barn!!

The Lubrisyn runs from around $300 a gallon and the 32 oz is around $115. By the 32 oz it is about $60 per month with shipping etc.

Good luck

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sannois:
Can you nice folks give me an idea of Cost for these Products, And how much I would have to give my horse?? Heres the next problem, How can I administer it, BO is really a pain, he will not feed any Liquid supps??? !!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I give mine to my guys when I arrive at evening. I take a handful of grain and you can just mix it up. Oh, or you can use the syringe thingie. But I HATED that ... others like it.

Cowgirl,

That's EXACTLY what I did. I switched from Hylamotion. Hylamotion made her about 80% sound. LubriSyn ... well, now Hyaluronex, has her 100% sound. It's marvellous. One of the reasons I changed was the studies on absorption. With the Hyaluronex, too, you get 65 mgs. And it DOES work better than the Hylamotion. I guess because more gets into the system.

Hey Gunnar ... how sound is Bodie now ? Is he 100%? Isn't this stuff GREAT???

[Penthilisea]

I switched from as 100mg a day powder to the Lubrisyn. The powder did NADA.

AND... I ordered the gallon after the first month- now Jeff will exchange the unopened ones towards Hylarunix or whatever it is. What is the difference between the two? (Price and effect)

[egontoast]

What is the difference? One difference that I read here somewhere is that perhaps the seller has an exclusive dealership for the hylaronix?

here's my unscientific trial results so far. Horse has not has his legend iv shot for over a month. Horse was on hyalun for a couple of months and now has been on loading dose of lube for nearly a week.

Horse needs a legend shot. So far the oral supps(Hyalun and Lubrysin) have not had the effect that legend IV has, unfortunately.I will give the lube the rest of the week at loading dose but then I am calling the vet if no improvement.

[Sannois]

Do you think it only shows alot of improvement in mild cases of arthritis?? Or is it just how each system utilizes it?? I am still pondering, Legend, Adequan, Hylaun, Lubrisin?? ~ Sigh~ http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[egontoast]

My horse only has mild arthritis- just gets a bit sticky, not unsound, but the oral HA, as far as I can tell, has not had the dramatic effect that Legend IV has had.

It apparently has helped others though.

[Oldenburg Mom]

egontoast,

I think, to my untrained eye, the difference is this absorption information that has had a double blind test. I think ... I could be wrong.

The stuff is getting into the system, peaking at 48 hours ... which means that if you're giving it every day, you have a continual high blood level. Now, I'm not a RAyers, or a Ghazzu. I'm just a little old graphics/computer geek.

The formulation of the two products is also different. The formulation of the Hyaluronix is to achieve maximum blood levels.

BUT, I admit. This could be all wrong. I'm not trying to convince anyone ... from what I've read, and from what I understand, it's better for the same $$. JMHO

[Gunnar]

egg, sorry to hear you have seen no improvement. I used Legend and Adequan for years but I currently have no outlet to an IV shot giver and it would cost me in excess of $125 (for Legend only) to get a vet out each month. Plus when my horse was on Legend I could always tell when the 30 days was nearing. That is why I wanted a daily supplement I could administer myself. I just hope my horse continues on in his rehab and soundness, which in MHO the Lub seems to have helped.

On my own Lubrysin supplementation I am doing well but I will note that as my range of motion improves I am overusing my bad knee. Before I tended to favor it but now I readily bend down, step up or mount from the ground as I did yesterday on my huge horse. (emergency mount while out trail riding) This had caused me some soreness but most of this is due to weakness in my knee. Lubrysin cannot make muscles around your knee but now I can do it myself due to pain reduction. I also have severly banged my bad knee cap repeatedly recently and it may never be the same. I wonder about my horse's knee when I feel these sensations in my own. It does make me understand his mechanics as he benefits from the HA. There are days when he will overuse it still so I expect this. The balance of my body is doing great with most aches and pains gone. I will keep using it!!!

[egontoast]

I am happy for you. Hope it keeps working. It really hasn't made a difference for my horse.

He'll be getting a Legend shot next week. I am riding pretty much every day now so I should be able to see the difference right away.Hope so.

[LessIsMore17]

Lester has been on Lubrisyn just shy of a month and I'm really seeing a difference now. Even his walk is more fluid, he starts out floaty instead of heavy and stiff now.

Can't say I ever really noticed much diff from the Adequan, and now I love not having to rely on anyone to give him shots....

[ltw]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Can't say I ever really noticed much diff from the Adequan, and now I love not having to rely on anyone to give him shots.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Adequan can be given IM (intramuscular). It is very easy to do. Your vet can instruct you how and then you buy a box and give it yourself. It is very, very simple.

[Goldylox]

Gunner,
Does the LubrSyn work just as well in the bags?
Have you noticed any change in the soundness?
Is this the only way you have feed it since you started??
Rush is continuing too improve everyday. I have had to keep him at the loading dose to have him sound.
We are started back over small fences and he is sound for now. But I'm not really pushing him over anything more than 2'6. For now.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Rush is getting his at night after I ride. I pour it right on top of a handful of his food. He loves it.
A too, have a problem with getting the BM to feed it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
I ride him 5 days a week and then the other 2 days, I just come out to visit and he still gets the LubriSyn.
If it works just as well in the bags please let me know.
It gets to about 100-105 every summer down here. I don't know if it will be as effective if it sits and gets hot.
Does anyone know how much heat the LubriSyn can take and still be effective?

[Gunnar]

GL, I am with you on the dosage and am giving Bodie about 20ML a day. I have been giving it to him in the bags (Bodie has been sound and taken no bad steps in his rehab. I took him trail riding Sunday, up and down a steep hill so we will see today how that knee is!!! ) but was considering trying the daily carrot like Fessy Mom. Then I would know for certain that he got it. It does soak into the pellets and he eats them all. I just worry about the pellets he drops as he is eating.

The trouble is I have been trying to escape the daily barn trip 2 days a week as my friend is there now and will give him water(the hay dunker is a water boy and needs buckets filled each day. BO promises but does not do so I must.) I do not expect her to measure out the Lub so if it is in the bags he gets it each day. Oh why can't my horse be in my back yard like so many Cothers.

I also worry about the weather as it is in the high 80's and 90's now so I do not soak the Beet Pulp over night. I was putting it in his BP but he also drools this everywhere and it is a large quantity so I figured the pellets were better as he gets on 1.5 cups or so.

So glad to hear your horse is doing so well.

[ESG]

Okay - I know this has been asked (and answered) before, but WHERE do you get LubriSyn? My wonderful vet, who can usually get or find anything I want, is unable to get this magical stuff from any of her normal drug suppliers. Help, pretty please? My big jumper needs this stuff pronto. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Kitty]

ESG, go to http://www.petfooddirect.com which has many choices, gel-tube, different sized liquids, etc and the prices are right. Good luck!

[Goldylox]

Gunner,
I don't ever soak the pulp over night. Old Rush won't eat it that way.
Oh, no http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif....we must have the correct splash of luke warm water to mix the beet pulp in with the Empower and his oil.
As for the horse in the backyard, sometimes it can be overrated, but without those 2 years of Rush in the "backyards"I would never have survived the trials of the EPSM diet.
The problem is Rush loves the taste of the LubriSyn and he has at times eaten around his other supplements.
I may try the carrot trick. How fast will the carrot go bad?
I could use this maybe and leave them for 3 days at a time in 100 weather? No AC in the feedroom. It's like a furnace in the summer.

[bumknees]

Have a question about the dosing of this stuff. I will finally be able to order it right around the 1st of july ( Thankyou National guard G*ds for AT starting on Fri)
I make my own 'smartpacks' so all my supplement stuff is handy if someone should be feeding for me. I use old pudding/jello single servings thingies that I have around the house and fill them with what ever supplements I add to Dt's grain and seal them with that new press and seal glad stuff.
anyway if I set it up with his hoof supplement, fly controll stuff will it still be ok to use. I do about 1 month in advance and stick it in th fridge ( for the garlic mixture for fly controll) will it being in the fridge alter the effectivness or for that matter will it being out of its jug for more time then squeeze and pour alter its effectivness...
For some reason I have a really good feeling about this stuff and its efectivness for Dt's soundness. I have just this feeling that once he is on it he may be NQR some times but not looking 3 legged most of the time.

[Gunnar]

hlnm, I am not sure how the cold will affect the LUB. I think you need to ask the manufacturor. I am putting in bags ahead so it is not squeeze and pour so it seems to be OK. I am praying that DT benefits from it as so many horse seem to have!!!

[LessIsMore17]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ltw:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Can't say I ever really noticed much diff from the Adequan, and now I love not having to rely on anyone to give him shots.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Adequan can be given IM (intramuscular). It is very easy to do. Your vet can instruct you how and then you buy a box and give it yourself. It is very, very simple. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah right! Me give shots, I passed out when it was time to take my boyfriend home after he got his wisdom teeth out!--- I had friends at the barn that were more than willing to do it for me IM, but I like the Lubrisyn gel bc I can do it myself http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[dehere98]

Update.

My horse has been on the Lube 11 days, but we're currently dealing with an abscess..
Am eager to see how he goes once that freakin thing clears up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[ltw]

Less Is More 17:
"Yeah right! Me give shots, I passed out when it was time to take my boyfriend home after he got his wisdom teeth out!--- I had friends at the barn that were more than willing to do it for me IM, but I like the Lubrisyn gel bc I can do it myself "



If you own a horse it would be a good idea to learn how to give shots, it could save his life and alot of pain for him, and allow you to become more proactive in his care! Learning to give an IM shot is like learning to put tack on your horse, worm him, or handle him for the farrier.

These are all basic horse care, animal husbandry areas that you have to be responsible for as a part of horse ownership. Learning how to do an IM injection is a part of very basic care. Ask your vet to teach you. If your horse is colicing and your vet cannot get therefor hours you had better know how to give a shot of Banamine and have it on hand! Otherwise, he suffers in pain while you stand there helpless.

There are many animal husbandry tasks 1000 times more difficult or gruesome than giving a measly IM shot that you need to learn to handle as a part of horse ownership. Gut it out and learn how to do basic vet tasks so you can handle things in an emergency when there is no vet around.

There will not be a vet to help you at every turn!

The more proactive you are the better horseowner you become. The better care your horse gets, the less he suffers.

[egontoast]

yes, you need to be always at the ready for an emergency sheath cleaning! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

[CHJoker]

Yada yada yada...ltw, injections do carry a risk. Horses have died from well meaning owners doing "vet duties" themselves. Hell, horses have died from VETS injecting in the wrong place. You had better check your equine insurance before you engage in these "responsibilities as a horse owner".

It could void your policy if an injection is given by anyone other than a licensed vet.

IMHO, your rant is way out of line, and way over the top. Who are YOU to determine that someone is an inadequate horse owner because they refuse to give their own injections?? Geez, get a grip. Do you own stock in Adequen or something? Why the freak-out?

[chism]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ltw:
Less Is More 17:
"Yeah right! Me give shots, I passed out when it was time to take my boyfriend home after he got his wisdom teeth out!--- I had friends at the barn that were more than willing to do it for me IM, but I like the Lubrisyn gel bc I can do it myself "



Give me a break, you own a horse????

If you own a horse you better get a stronger stomach and become more proactive in his care! Learning to give an IM shot is like learning to put tack on your horse, worm him, or handle him for the farrier.

These are all basic horse care, animal husbandry areas that you have to be responsible for as a part of horse ownership. Learning how to do an IM injection is a part of very basic care. Learn it NOW! If your horse is colicing and your vet cannot get therefor hours you had better know how to give a shot of Banamine and have it on hand! Otherwise, he suffers in pain because of your ignorance and lack of responsibility.

There are many animal husbandry tasks 1000 times more difficult or gruesome than giving a measly IM shot that you need to learn to handle as a part of horse ownership. Gut it out and learn how to do basic vet tasks so you can handle things in an emergency when there is no vet around.

Basic things you need to be able to handle for example:

1. Cleaning sheaths
2. Cleaning up nasty wounds, irrigating, clipping, medicating, etc.
3. Handling a nasty colic
4. Getting a horse up after a nasty colic or when he is cast in his stall, getting a horse out of or out from under entaglement with a fence.
5. Holding mare, foal, gelding etc for stitching or any emergency procedure where the vet needs your assistance and help!!!!!!!
6. Being present to assist vet to put a horse down or dealing with watching one die in a safe and responsible manner.
7. Trailering accidents where horse are injured
8. Any vet emergency where the vet needs YOU to assist stitching or cleaning or holding or assisting in any way.

If you can't handle that kind of heat, get out of the kitchen. I am sorry to be so harsh but you sound like a person that has no business owning a horse if you get sick and pass out giving a basic IM injection. You need to be willing to learn basic animal husbandry practices!

These problems will be COMMON occurances of owning horses.

There will not be a vet to help you at every turn!

The more proactive you are the better horseowner you become. The better care your horse gets, the less he suffers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty Harsh...Some people don't like to give shots, it's certainly not indicative of bad horsemanship. That's why Banamine comes in paste too.

LTW - I hate giving IM shots. I'll do it but I don't like it. That's why we have options.

[sophie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CHJoker:

It could void your policy if an injection is given by anyone other than a licensed vet.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point.

I have never given any injection (to humans, dogs, or horses)...does that make me an awful horse/dog owner? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif
I let the vet (or my nurse friend) do those.

I avoid the "sheath cleaning emergencies" (!) by having mares only...and no, I have no problem cleaning them "back there" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ltw]

Your are right, my message was too strong so I toned it way down. The basic premise still stands.

Let me start over with saying this in a nicer way.

A basic IM shot is very easy to learn, and your vet will teach you. All horseowners should be capable of giving a basic IM shot.

For example:
If you call your vet and your horse is colicing and he cannot get there for hours on end he may instruct you to give the horse Banamine. It will save alot of suffering for your horse. That is just ONE reason why shots should be learned.

Concerning the sheath cleaning example I referenced in my previously edited post, it is just another unpleasant animal husbandry task (like learning basic shots, or wound care) that a weak stomached person may not want to do but is a necessary part of horsemanship.

CHJoker:

I own, run, manage my own farm and have anywhere from 10 to 15 horses at any one time on my farm. In my entire life of managing and caring for these horses I have never had a reaction or problem with any IM or IV injection that I have administered.

I administer all of my own vaccines, IV Legend, Adequan, Banamine, Antibiotics, etc.

I have great vets that help ENABLE me to manage the day to day routine stuff so they do not come here and run up my bill for things that a horseowner/farmowner can handle on their own.

I have never had a problem with insurance either.

[CHJoker]

Good for you ltw.

Hope you never do have a problem. I am surprised your vet's don't mind you doing all the extra stuff, and supply you with all the meds, etc. (at cost, I believe you have mentioned). You must be a very good client otherwise, or married to a vet, LOL. Geee, the way you tell it, maybe Adequen and legend should just have little instruction sheets enclosed and everyone can start shooting up their own horses, as it is so easy, and foolproof! After all, giving injections is a basic of horsemanship!

Many vets depend on the fees from things most horseowners could "do on their own" (shots, routine injections, etc). If you are the average horseowner, and do not employ your vet on a regular basis, I would not be surprised that if on the next emergency, he does not come running to help. Yes, you should, in that case, have the medicine closet stacked with banamine and antibiotics. You probably won't be the first on the priority list.

This is a non issue for me, by federal law, only licensed vets are allowed to give injections here. I have a equine specialized vet clinic 10 minutes away, and I am happy to have it. It is expensive, though, to keep a full clinic and 4 full time equine veterinarians on staff.

You know, I have read a few threads about the lack of equine vets in the US... no money in it, I have heard. That is certainly not a problem here.

I also have great vets that ENABLE me to be a good horseowner. I pay them accordingly, and I am happy to let them do their jobs.

[Fessy's Mom]

Just a little update on Abe (6 yo OTTB had knee chip surgery on his right knee in 10/04 after which he was still quite lame, on Lubrisyn for two months).

I put him on the longe line last night to do our trot sets and he was sound going to the right! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And what's really interesting is that to the left his trot stride was bigger, but he still had a *slight* head bob.

But we'll definitely take it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ltw]

It is Standard Operating Practice in the USA for farm managers to do alot of the very basic vet care like I do. If you talked to a manager of a TB racing barn in Kentucky with 50 horses, you won't find a breeding/farm manager calling the vet out for every routine injection.

It is Standard Operating Practice for most serious professional dressage rider/trainer/competitors in the USA to administer Adequan to their horses themselves IM. Those comfortable giving Legend IV do so with vet oversite, direction and instruction.

There is no lack of equine vets in the USA in the horse concentrated areas.

There are very few vets in the very rural areas like Idaho or Montana as there is no business. The area is too large and spread out. I have a friend in Idaho that breeds and does not have a vet within 4 hours of her farm. She has to do alot of things like draw blood on a 24 hour foal to do her own IGG tests with the Snap kit . She had to learn to do alot of her own vet work in order for her horses to survive.


In our area (east coast) which has a large concentration of sporthorses there are plenty of vets, and the good ones are very busy. They are often so busy they don't have time to come out for a routine IM shot. My vets encourage their clients to learn how to give the routine injections.

As a breeder and dressage competitor I have never had a problem getting any of my vets here in an emergency when I need them. I give them plenty of business and routinely bill easily a $1,000 each month with them. They do not need me as a client just for routine injections. They were the ones years ago that encouraged me to give my own Adequan and Legend. If I am gone out of town at a 3 or 4 day show they are not there at the show to provide the service.

A few years ago, I had a mare with a complicated foaling. She had to get antibiotics two times a day plus other IV injections for a total of 4 injections a day for two weeks. Do you think the vet had the time to come to my farm 4 times a day to do this? or was it easier to make sure I was comfortable doing this work? Pretty straight forward solution, I did the work, again with his oversite and instruction.

The only other solution was to ship the mare to a hospital which was not necessary and would have cost me over $5000.

[CHJoker]

Yes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I know that you have a farm, and I believe I was referencing the AVERAGE horse owner.

So, OKAY, if you are giving the vets in your area 1K per month, then it is absolutely worth their time to give you the shots and teach you to do it yourself. But, is this the case with the average 1 or 2 horse owner? Is it fair to expect the vets to just hand out the Adequan or Legend and syringes, and hope the clients have an education in giving shots?

Bottom line, I suppose; if you want and are comfortable giving shots, that is great. But if you are not, that is NOT indicative of bad horsemanship, or somehow makes you a baby and unable to cope in an emergency situations.

[Cowgirl]

I give both my IV and IM shots and I am the average horse owner. I had no problem with the vets wanting to teach me to do it. They knew that if I couldn't do it myself, I couldn't afford to give my horse all the stuff he needs as frequently as he needs to be comfortable. Was I queasy? YES, but I got over myself. The IM shots are so easy. I also know people who have owned horses and don't have a CLUE about basic horse care, so I agree with ltw.

But I also agree with Joker. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I do think you can void your insurance if anyone other than a licensed vet is the one to give the shots, no matter how experienced they are. My horse is 20 and they dropped my insurance, so it's not an issue for me. I also once had a trainer giving my horse IM shots and she did it too low and ended up hitting a nerve near his neck vertabrae that caused his hind end to go numb for a day. She had learned how to give shots at a breeding farm and not from a vet. She also gave him a needle abcess that we had to open and drain. After that I had every vet I used teach me to give shots (I have the farm vet, my regular vet, my dvm equine dentist, and the lameness specialist ALL teach me and supervise me). But I am WELL aware that every time I stick a needle in him, it's a risk.

I have to say that I don't think the economics of giving Legend or Adequan play into this, at least not here. One of my vets will sell me Legend/Adequan at cost just to make it more available to the horse and all of my vets encourage me to give my own shots because it's a pain in the butt for them to come all the way out once a month for that and they can't really charge enough to make it worth their while. If they pay $53 for a vial of Legend, drive 30-40 minutes each way to the farm and spend five minutes giving my horse a shot, they LOSE money when they charge me $120 for it. The only way they make money doing this is if they give it when they already are making a farm call for something else, or if they have many horses to do and do them all on the same day. So saying that it's income producing for the vets, in my mind, is kind of nonsense.

I recently looked at a new barn to board at and discovered that the very competent BM is a vet tech and also gives the Legend/Adequan shots. Since the IV shots still make me nervous as I only do them once a month, I asked him whether he'd do them for me if I moved there and he said that he prefers that I continue to do them myself, but he would supervise me. The reason that he wanted me to continue to do them is to have a backup person who can give IV shots in an emergency. I have actually boarded at barns where NO ONE could give an IV shot. To me, that's kind of scary.

As far as the LubriSyn goes, I think you all have convinced me to give it a go. When I used conquer or HylaMotion with the Legend, I found I could stretch my Legend shots to every other month. It really isn't any cheaper for me to do it this way, but I like the idea of him having a steady supply of HA available. So I'm off to place my order. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[chism]

I ordered my Lubrisyn today from PetDirect. I can't wait for it to come in.
I have an 11 year old OTTB. He has an old suspensory injury which sometimes stocks up without heat and I'm sure he's arthritic since he raced until he was 8. He's just always NQR, can't put my finger on it. I've tried Cosequin, it seems to help but I would like to see more of an improvement.

[LessIsMore17]

I guess I feel the need to set the record straight on being a "Responsible" horse owner...

1. Cleaning sheaths- Do it all the time, even get the beans...sometimes he's sedated, other times not

2. Cleaning up nasty wounds, irrigating, clipping, medicating, etc.- Cleaned up my share of those, my first mare had serveral boils that had to be lanced and drained and I had to clean it out with a syringe daily. Same mare stepped on a nail and had to have it dug out of her foot, then I had to clean it and pack it dailey, I'm very lucky to not have had too many SERIOUS injuries (knock on wood).

3. Handling a nasty colic- Same mare coliced many, many times- I was an 12 year old kid that was very keen at catching the first signs of it-not just for my horse either.

4. Getting a horse up after a nasty colic - see above or when he is cast in his stall- helped with this some, getting a horse out of or out from under entaglement with a fence.- very furtunate not to have dealt with this... yet, or I just can't remember at the moment???

5. Holding mare, foal, gelding etc for stitching or any emergency procedure where the vet needs your assistance and help!!!!!!!- Have always held my own horses for medical procedures- tubes up the nose, arms up the butt, teeth floating, shots, dealing with my horse when he had a 105 temp ect


6. Being present to assist vet to put a horse down or dealing with watching one die in a safe and responsible manner.- The mare I mentioned above, I was present during her horrible diagnosis (long story) and her ultimate demise- I could have walked away if I wanted to.

7. Trailering accidents where horse are injured- VERY lucky here, had an accident, but no one was hurt.

8. Any vet emergency where the vet needs YOU to assist stitching or cleaning or holding or assisting in any way.- I don't panic in these situations, I do what needs to be done. What ever is needed to help or save my horse that is in my power I'll do.

Just because I CHOOSE not to give shots does not make me an irresponsible horse owner. I have plenty of people around who are willing to do it for me. If I HAD to do it, then I would, but I don't.

[Peace of Mine Farm]

Hey everyone~

I have been following this thread for a long time and I have really been impressed with some of the "success" stories.

I have been wondering if anyone has had any success with LubriSyn helping their horses with tendon issues. My baby, Hugo, severed his left front extensor tendon (about 1 inch above his knee) about 3 weeks ago. We stitched the wound up, but he ended up popping some stitches 2 weeks in. We are now dealing with the wound and trying to prevent proud flesh, etc. He was only lame directly following the accident and even jogs sound in his run. Would LubriSyn be helpful? (I guess it can't hurt... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Does anyone have any advice? He is a 3 yr old Quarter Horse/Human. haha

Thanks

Also, has anyone found that either the gel vs. liquid works better?

[ltw]

Less Is More:

Sounds like you have a strong stomach, lots of eperience caring for your horse in stressful and gruesome situations. Sounds like you could handle just about anything including a basic IM injection, unless you just have a basic needle phobia.

[LessIsMore17]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fessy's Mom:
Just a little update on Abe (6 yo OTTB had knee chip surgery on his right knee in 10/04 after which he was still quite lame, on Lubrisyn for two months).

I put him on the longe line last night to do our trot sets and he was sound going to the right! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And what's really interesting is that to the left his trot stride was bigger, but he still had a *slight* head bob.

But we'll definitely take it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's great to hear about your horse... Do you think your horse could just be "used" to head bobbing and it might just take some time to come out of it?
I'm amazed watching Less on the lunge line now, he just looks so "comfortable" in his body, big, fluid strides. Transisition from canter to trot is much more balanced and subtle.

[Fessy's Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LessIsMore17:
That's great to hear about your horse... Do you think your horse could just be "used" to head bobbing and it might just take some time to come out of it?
I'm amazed watching Less on the lunge line now, he just looks so "comfortable" in his body, big, fluid strides. Transisition from canter to trot is much more balanced and subtle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I often wonder this myself, that it's become a "habit" for him to bob his head. He spent the winter being so uncomfortable, I just think he expects the knee to hurt when he uses it. Even though it's healed, I'm sure from favoring it for so long, he may have even changed his gait. *shrugs*

I longed him again for 10 minutes last night and got an even nicer trot both ways. He even picked up a canter at one point on the wrong lead and promptly did a lovely balanced change to the correct one. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Way to go Abey-Baby! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[LessIsMore17]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ltw:
Less Is More:

Sounds like you have a strong stomach, lots of eperience caring for your horse in stressful and gruesome situations. Sounds like you could handle just about anything including a basic IM injection, unless you just have a basic needle phobia. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the note: I know my limitations and yes, you could say I have a phobia of needles! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[whitebirchfarm]

hello i can help anyone that is looking for Lubrisyn..........i have it and use it n my 27 yo Appy mare..........i can honestly recomend it

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by whitebirchfarm:
hello i can help anyone that is looking for Lubrisyn..........i have it and use it n my 27 yo Appy mare..........i can honestly recomend it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Welcome to the boards, Whitebirchfarm.

Are you saying you sell it? Or just stating that your appy mare is doing well on it.

I'd love to know about your mare ... what's her story?

[aereal]

Just wondering if anyone knows anything about this product?

HylaRX (http://www.selectthebest.com/products/flex_products/hylarx.htm)

It is available at my local feed store (hyalun and lubrisyn are not available in BC - at least I can't find them) and is a reasonable price for the gallon jug.

Any comments? thoughts?

Thanks

[egontoast]

"That's great to hear about your horse... Do you think your horse could just be "used" to head bobbing and it might just take some time to come out of it?"

More likely it indicates what it usually indicates, that the horse is slightly off or lame, esp since it's only one way.

[whitebirchfarm]

My daughter came home from a qh show with the Lubrisyn.She had two gallons and a quart.The quart was for our old appy mare now 27.The mare has a old bone chip in her rear ankle.We have had in injected twice and kept her on HylaRx.With in 5 days of starting the Lubrisyn she was bucking off the lesson students.The other 4 horse we started on it have shown remarkable improvements in soundness and coat condtion.I called the 800 number on the bottle and got an education.I paid 380 a gallon.You can buy it direct and pay 350 which includes shipping.I usually dont get so excited about supplements,i have tried them all over the years.

[Carma]

Hello all... you are not gonna belive this... but I just spent a whooping 3 hours reading all the posts from March. I feel like I know you all so "personally" now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I love to be reading all the testimonials .. it really seems to help me make a good decision.

Okay, so, a few days ago, my 7 y.o., 17.2H, brilliant copper chestnut Hann. mare (jumper and dressage horse) who has never had a bad step in her life, started bobbing her head at the trot. I was horrified, because I have had such good luck lately. It was a pretty severe head bobbing...I was thinking "oh no!!!"

So I gave her i.v. bute and wrapped her (day 1).
Day 2, I went out to the barn and took of wraps and trotted her. No head bobbing... still a little sore.

At this point, I am pretty certain it is not a tendon injury. One more day of Bute i.v. (still Day 2).

Day 3... No soreness, but my trainer think we should give her i.v. 100% Glucosamine... so I agreed. We did that (on day 3).

Day 4.. not too much difference than day 3. Not very sore anymore and possibly more movement than before giving i.v. glucosamine.

Here is my question...
Even though I am pretty SOLD on this Hyalun/ LubriSyn, what is the main difference between this and the i.v. injection that my trainer gave my horse? He said it is $20.00 per dose. Sounds reasonable.. Should be given once a week for 4 weeks.

Anyway, after reading for many hours, it sounds like the majority of you think that LubriSyn is a better buy, but for the most part... the same stuff. Right?

What is the very best price that you all are buying this stuff at? I guess I could check many websites and find the best... but it would be nice to get some prices complied by the "Experts!". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks so much for your input/ help...
I can't wait to see my horse jumping me out of my saddle again!

L

[Oldenburg Mom]

whitebirchfarm ... what good news. I didn't know they sold the stuff at horse shows! WOW! Great news.

Carma,

Hmmmm. Well, I think the question you asked was: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Even though I am pretty SOLD on this Hyalun/ LubriSyn, what is the main difference between this and the i.v. injection that my trainer gave my horse? He said it is $20.00 per dose. Sounds reasonable.. Should be given once a week for 4 weeks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this is how I see it. And, I admit, I have not read any scientific studies on Adequan nor Legend (and I should!) But, I do understand this, or have started to. I think. Maybe. Perhaps. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The oral Hyaluronex is 65 mgs, and (I think I got this right) peaks in the blood within 48 hours. Therefore, once you start on the program, there is a constant, consistant presence.

Adequan and Legend peak ... then there is no more. Thus the level declines.

The problem, in the past, has been the absorption, which the manufacturers of Hyaluronex, LubriSyn et al seem to have solved. I like the Haluronex as they have absorption studies and scientific data to back up at least SOME of their claims.

Anyway. That's my take. And, of course, it seems to work! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif But hyluronic acid is not glucosamine. Personally, as far as cost, I buy mine directly from Jeff Morgenstern. He has it in stock and I'd rather support an indiviual and their business as opposed to a nameless corporation.

[egontoast]

Update: After 10 days on loading dose of Lubrysin I had results today. Not as dramatic as legend, but better than before.

Can someone PT me some sources for lubrysin other than JM- I was unable to buy the gallon size from him and he just wanted me to buy the other thing.

[Penthilisea]

Fessy's Mom
It's also possible not that he has "learned to bob or expect pain, but that due to the injury he has muscle decay or is out of alignment from compensating. Harvey STILL to this day although he is 100% sound on the lubrisyn has flat bottocks when viewed from behind- ie parellel to the wall and the direction his tail grows due to lack of correct use of msucles in his hind end. He also required regualr adjustments during his recovery. All in all, it was 4 -6 INTENSIVE months of work, supplements and adjustements to get him right after YEARS of being NQR then not right at all. All the time I kept being told it was his hocks- which although they do get stiff, lookdrastically different and affect him differently then his stifles ( where the issue was).

/ end rant.
Egontoast YAY! About darn time! No really, I am so glad this has helped you as well. What kind of result sod you see? again, YAY!

[whitebirchfarm]

I can help with purchase of Lubrisyn. It comes in tubes, quarts , gallons.The gallonis 350.00 if you buy direct.Lasts one horse 8 moths so it is 43.75 a month.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by egontoast:
Update: After 10 days on loading dose of Lubrysin I had results today. Not as dramatic as legend, but better than before. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!

What did you see?

[casadora]

I finally must make my comment after following this thread for so many months. Personally use what works for your situation which varies greatly from horse to horse, for this I have no opinion. I must comment to Oldenburg Moms comment on "buying from a faceless corporation in regards to purchacing from either Jeff Morgenstern or Lubrisyn, a nameless corporation. The "faceless" corporation is a small start up company run by who is considered one of the best equine diagnostic veterinarians in the world. This gentleman looks at lame horses every single day of the week all over the country and the world. His development of Lubrisyn has been trial and error having watched the effect on hundreds of horses for the past several years to develop his current product...hardly a "faceless corporation. He is and has been involved with the premiere race, show jumping, and dressage horses in the WORLD. Hardly a faceless corporation, perhaps someone could supply Mr. Morgensterns credentials, I find it very interesting that a responsible distibutor of any product would literally jump ship so quickly to a new product when so little is truly known about any oral HA products. Buy what works for you horse, budget, ect, but do some research into product development, history, and credibility, before you purchase especially with nutracueticals.

[Fessy's Mom]

Penthilisea - trust me, I know about muscle atrophy from his injury. I spent three months this winter doing physical therapy to rebuild the muscles in his forearm and chest that basically disappeared from non-use after his injury. He finally has his boobs back! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part that he is no longer in any pain from his injury and that his occasional head bob at the walk and trot are from habit, but maybe not. What I do know is that he's so much happier now that he's allowed to be a horse in my little herd turned out in the pasture 24 hours a day. And I also know that I won't even attempt to ride him until any hint of a head bob is gone. And I ALSO know that it won't make one lick of difference if I am NEVER able to ride him. I'll just be content in the knowledge that he's a happy horse earning his keep by being an incredibly sweet friend to me. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

Ummmm, well, it's nice to meet you too, casadora. I think.

I certainly did not impune anyone's credentials. I have no idea about the "jumping ship" and could care less. I'm interested in my horse, not some sort of internal corporate machinations. I have no idea who this vet is you're speaking of ... I'm delighted he has a successful WORLDWIDE practice.

And, um, I pretty much consider Petdirect a faceless corporation, for what it's worth.

Anyway, bless your heart, thanks for letting me know what you think.

[casadora]

My point of informing oldenburg mom about the vet who developed Lubrisyn is very simple. If you do research about products you can find out where they originate and who has developed them. An example beingFarriers Formula, one of they very best products on the market for hooves was developed by a practising veterinarian.As I am unable to locate or be informed via this website or any other other source of Mr. Morgensterns credentials perhaps you could help me out if you have any information. I find much solice in the fact that the Vet who developed Lubrisyn had active day to day imput and observation of the development and more importantly the safety and results. My latest research informed me one of the many race horses using the product was Giacomo, the Kentucky Derby winner, I would think that they are "interested " in their horse. I love my animals more than anything in this world and I personally feel more comfortable with real life scenarios, (i.e. I do not go to my accountant to ask questions about my health or ask his experience with medication dosages). Thus if the person develops a product based on their education and experince I feel considerably more comfortable, especially with nutracuetical products. I would be more than happy to hear the credentials of Mr. Morgenstern to help me make an informed decision perhaps you have some insight which has not been posted. The animals are 100 % the most important reason I have read and researched this entire oral ha business;the safety and comfort of the animal comes first and an added bonus would be performance results.

[Oldenburg Mom]

uh, casadora, what credentials do you need to distribute a product? A business degree? I could care less what Jeff's credentials are. I give as much thought to his credentials as I do to the fruit vendor on the corner where I buy my morning fruit juice.

It's irrelevant.

You seem to know an awful lot about the company... do you work for them?

[egontoast]

Who you callin a fruit vendor! Not that there's anything wrong with that.

bickerbickerbicker

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by egontoast:
Who you callin a fruit vendor! Not that there's anything wrong with that.

bickerbickerbicker </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif You're right, eggy. 'nuff said.

[findeight]

Hell, I buy it from my vet at 360usd a gallon and that's a fair deal for both sides.
He gets a mark up and I can walk into the office and walk out with the product.

[whitebirchfarm]

you can buy it direct from the company at 350 including shipping

[casadora]

According to Mr. Morgenstern he refers to his studies of Hyaluronex, thats an awful lot to go through for a distributor isn't it? Just as my enquires and research into Lubrisyn informed me of the content of their studies.... As for me "working " for the company I am only an informed horse person who is very aware of how many products on the market are not what they represent themselves to be; I am a horse person who has spent thousands of dollars thru actual trial and error to discover this, hense my reasons for being cautious and specific in my research.I hate to point out Oldenburg Mom but from your many posts in this forum most of your dialog seems to follow very closely to Mr. Morgenstern from him selling Lubrisyn to now Hyaluronix perhaps it should be me asking if you are related to him or his company? I am not the first person in this forum who you have asked if they work for Lubrisyn...???

[ol' QHJumper]

I certainly have left this topic for too long-- it's come so far (both up and down) since I started my old guy on Hyalun!
[I hope that this hasn't been answered in the 25 pages, but please forgive me if it has... I tried to skim the ones I'd missed.]
Anyway, I'm considering switching to Lubrisyn from Hyalun, mostly for cost-efficiency, although I wouldn't be unwilling to up my Pony's dose of HA to see if it helps more. So, is the current recommended daily dosage of Lub. still 10 cc? Making it 30mg daily (@ 3mg/ml)?
Hyalun is, I believe, 5mg / day dosage, right?
Has anyone made this switch (if prev. posted, feel free to just refer me to page #), and if so, did you use the Lub. recommended dosage, or do something like give 2 cc per day (yeilding 6mg, comparable to the Hyalun)?
If my math is right, and i did do 2 cc of Lubrisyn per day, a 16 oz bottle would last a Looong time, making it really $ efficient.
so.... advice?

thanks! (Pony thanks you too!)

[Oldenburg Mom]

casadora

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

You are clearly involved with the company in some way.

Jeff Morgenstern is no relation to me, nor do I work for his firm.

"His" studies? This is a laughable comment. Are you suggesting HE did them? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

You know, this is a pointless dialog. And I am going to stop feeding the trolls. Which I shouldn't have done in the first place. *sigh*

QH Jumper ...

I think some folks have changed... ummmm, but I don't remember specifically WHO. Good luck and of course, keep us posted. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[AWIP]

I was one that switched from Hyalun to Lubrisyn. Much more impressed with the Lubrisyn.

Oh btw OM ... you were right about all HA not being equal. The capsule supp I tried didn't work nearly as well, despite the fact the dosage is higher by the label.

[casadora]

Oldenberg Mom just to let you know, in my research I spoke directly to Mr. Morgenstern and to Quote him - "his studies" ? By the way you are sure defensive when the accuisitions fly your way.....I wonder what relation Mr. Morgenstern does have to Hyaluronex, I heard an interesting story but will not share on web forum, perhaps someone else will. Anyways goodluck!