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Bank of Dad
Apr. 13, 2010, 09:40 AM
I saw these on horses at a CTR. I can't post the pics, but these were beta or biothane brestplates, with a ring at the shoulder, and another ring attached with a clip to the shoulder ring, and the reins went thru that ring.

What is it, who carries them, and do many folks like them?

When I went to Al Marah, they used the western version on their greenies, the leather kind with lots of rings, called a training martingale. The one I am talking about is similar, but clearly for trail.

ReSomething
Apr. 13, 2010, 10:10 AM
I thought I'd found it with this but upon reading several times it sounds different - http://www.nationalbridle.com/product-p/1-1523.htm .


I'd be interested to find out. Can you host the pics on Photobucket and link?

Bank of Dad
Apr. 13, 2010, 11:41 AM
http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo_search.php?oid=107174272654492&view=all

These were posted on the Eastern Trailriders CTR Facebook page. Hope the link works.

chicamuxen1
Apr. 13, 2010, 01:38 PM
that is a variation on a "type" of running martingale. As you saw at nationalbridle.com the common design is having rings on the neckstrap that the reins run thru from the bit to the riders hands. That style was fairly popular with trainers of Saddlebreds and other "saddle" type horses that were trained to carry their heads high. The low set rings we used to pull the nose of the horse down and in. Used to see this amongst the saddle seat folks. This is not a true or standard running martingale. a big drawback to using the rings on the neck strap is that you can't do a one rein stop or even just pull your horses head around to the side. You rein action is extremely restricted to a very small area.

So many people use a running martingale incorrectly, using it to crank a horses head downward instead of using it to keep a snaffle bit placed properly on the bars of the horses mouth when they lift their nose high. A running martingale should be adjust quite long with the ring reaching to the horses throat latch. Tying your reins down to that strap around the neck would be a really bad idea. I can just picture a bolting horse with the rider unable to pull the horses head around to start a circle.

I don't use martingales anymore, if I have aissue with getting an excited horses head downthen I go back to training, bending and might upgrade to a leverage type bit like a Kimberwicke.

Bonnie S.

Bank of Dad
Apr. 13, 2010, 02:28 PM
The ones I saw in the pictures had additional rings that clipped onto the shoulder rings.

I would think absolutely theres no way to pull a horses head around.

SmartAlex
Apr. 13, 2010, 04:35 PM
In Saddlebredland, the additional rings clipped to the martingale are usually some sort of carbiner or quick-link which allows you to remove the ring from the martingale quickly and easily so you don't have to unbuckle your reins to run them through the rings and remove them from the martingale.
The strap over the withers from ring to ring is so you don't have to have rein stops to prevent the bit getting caught on the martingale.

Renae
Apr. 13, 2010, 07:21 PM
a big drawback to using the rings on the neck strap is that you can't do a one rein stop or even just pull your horses head around to the side. You rein action is extremely restricted to a very small area.

I can just picture a bolting horse with the rider unable to pull the horses head around to start a circle.


LOL what are you talking about? You most certainly can circle your horse, including in sharp circles, turn your horse, and flex its head and neck to one side or the other when using a training martingale, and most Saddlebred trainers use them with 2 sets of reins, one through the martingale and one not, anyways. The set up with 2 reins and a training martingale is used in schooling a horse in preperation for wearing a double bridle, or on seasoned horses to give them a break from the double bridle on some of the training days. Your description clearly shows you have never used this piece of equipment, or if you did you did not know what you were doing.

And yes adding the carabiner just makes it easy to take the reins out of the martingale, on a trail would probably be handy for taking the reins over the horse's head for leading.

Bank of Dad
Apr. 13, 2010, 09:54 PM
Well, I used the Ray LaCroix version of this training martingale on a greenie who bolted with me and there was no way I could get the leverage to pull his head around. If I hadn't had it on, I could have reached closer to the bit with both hands and pulled him around. He almost killed him and me running away along the side of a deep ravine 2 years ago. Although I got rid of him, I still have chills when I walk or ride along the spot.

Any way, I got the answer to my question by emailing the rider. This martingale was custom made for her by Running Bear, on a design taken from the LaCroix model.

chicamuxen1
Apr. 14, 2010, 09:45 AM
yeah, I disagree, no way could you get a real pull around with this setup, can't do it well with a regular running martingale either. I have owned a ASB, showed him many years ago. Yes, with the double rein set up you could maybe grab the other rein and pull that head around but not very fast and this forum isn't about arena riding and head setting on saddle horses.

I would not recommend this sort of martingale to anyone. After all the years of starting colts for trainers and friends, riding 2 yr old race horses, riding every sort of breed (except for gaited horses) and finally getting into NH methods too. Just don't believe in connecting my reins to anything that limits how those reins can be used. And of course I've seen horses flip over backwards when a rider decided to try a new martingale. A young hunter trainer in our area had a young TB flip over on her and got pinned under the horse up against the arena fence while her back was broken in 3 places. She had just put a standing martingale on the horse for the first time. What may work safely on one horse or in the hands of some riders can be a disaster for someone else. Please don't tie your reins down, don't tie the horses head down either.

Bonnie S.

BigHorseLittleHorse
Apr. 14, 2010, 12:21 PM
yeah, I disagree, no way could you get a real pull around with this setup, can't do it well with a regular running martingale either.

Depends on how you adjust the running martingale. I agree, the most common length for endurance doesn't leave much room to pull the horse's head around... but I have my martingale adjusted longer, as it's only there to keep my horse from flipping his nose above his poll, not to keep his head down all the time. I have no problem doing a one-rein stop.

pnalley
Apr. 15, 2010, 05:40 PM
All I can say is that App with the blue tack is sharp looking!

chicamuxen1
Apr. 15, 2010, 07:43 PM
Ah, I said that I wouldn't recommend THIS martingale, the one that B of D originally asked about. A true Running martingale properly adjusted, ie fairly long, is reasonably safe and stay out of your way. It simply keeps the bit's rein pressure working correctly if a horse puts his nose up high. These are really only needed for snaffle bits which work on the bars of the horses mouth. A leverage bit, like a kimberwick, pelham or curb bit work on curb chain and poll pressure which doesn't change when the nose goes up. A running martingale shouldn't be used with a leverage bit as it can hit the horse hard with the curb chain.

Anyway, just have gotten away from martigale use at all as I've learned that the lateral bend whether a one rein stop or a simple bend to one side, will bring the horses head down, put the snaffle back onto the bars of the mouth and unlock that stiffened neck that comes with a raised head. The need for a martingale just goes away.

Bonnie S.

wendybird
Apr. 20, 2010, 08:43 AM
For what it's worth I use a tie-down on my arab when he starts weaving and tossing his head. It's an excitement activity.
The tie-down is made of elastic bungy cord with clips at either end and attaches to the breast plate and nose-band.
It works very well.

Bank of Dad
Apr. 20, 2010, 08:53 AM
Wendybird, did you make it or buy it?

matryoshka
Apr. 20, 2010, 10:07 AM
...Anyway, just have gotten away from martigale use at all as I've learned that the lateral bend whether a one rein stop or a simple bend to one side, will bring the horses head down, put the snaffle back onto the bars of the mouth and unlock that stiffened neck that comes with a raised head. The need for a martingale just goes away.

Bonnie S.Same here. Changing my riding negated the need for martingales, even on head-tossers.

When I was younger? Needed 'em, would have gotten into trouble a few times without the help of a running martingale. I've never used a standing martingale (saw a horse flip while fighting one, never wanted to try one after that). When my husband rides, I put a running martingale on his horse. Safer for him.

Please don't anyone take this as a criticism of their riding. There may be a horse out there I'd feel safer on with a martingale. Haven't encountered that situation in years, but I'm not too proud to use help when I need it. (I grab mane when I feel insecure, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. :D)

bort84
Apr. 20, 2010, 10:55 AM
LOL what are you talking about? You most certainly can circle your horse, including in sharp circles, turn your horse, and flex its head and neck to one side or the other when using a training martingale, and most Saddlebred trainers use them with 2 sets of reins, one through the martingale and one not, anyways. The set up with 2 reins and a training martingale is used in schooling a horse in preperation for wearing a double bridle, or on seasoned horses to give them a break from the double bridle on some of the training days. Your description clearly shows you have never used this piece of equipment, or if you did you did not know what you were doing.

And yes adding the carabiner just makes it easy to take the reins out of the martingale, on a trail would probably be handy for taking the reins over the horse's head for leading.

Have to agree with Renae on this one... I grew up riding arabs and ASBs (mostly saddle seat with some hunter and western pleasure thrown in). All martingales can be dangerous in the wrong hands, but I've always felt the standing martingale is definitely the riskiest since there's no release if a horse decides to freak out and fight it. With a standard running martingale or the martingale the OP saw, all you have to do is push your hands forward and slip the reins (if you're on a horse inclined to rear, this is something you need to be extremely capable of doing very quickly).

With the martingale the OP is talking about, it's all a matter of adjusting it properly. To get a wider range of motion (to yank a bolting horse's head around for example), all you need to do is lower your hands. If you really want to crank a horse's head around, say, to the left, you just lower your left hand, put your right hand forward, then pull wide. I've done it, it works (obviously not accounting for freak circumstances that are impossible to anticipate). Unless you have the martingale so tight that it's snug to the neck (don't do that...) you should be fine. And I have to say, on a panicked bolting horse, I'd much rather have this kind of martingale on to get some additional leverage.

Anyway, I don't use martingales all that often anymore because I do more dressage now with some jumping thrown in. I think a standard running martingale can be VERY useful in a jumping situation on a horse that gets head flingy and excited when jumping - obviously there are training fixes for this as well, but some jumpers get really excited over big jumps. The training martingale the OP discussed can be similarly effective when used on a long adjustment, and I personally prefer to use it in a 2 rein setup on almost all horses.

Obviously there are horsey exceptions to every tack item, but with most horses, proper adjustment, and a skilled rider, you should be able to get a horse's head around in this type of martingale. Freak accidents can happen in any setup though. Panicked horses can sometimes be basically impossible to stop no matter how great of a rider you are and the tack you're using.

Tobias
Apr. 20, 2010, 12:09 PM
I ride in one like that, On the arabians that I ride, their owners train them with those, and ask that when I am riding that I use one, it does encourage the head down, a little, but I think it does not really do much, I just put it on to happy the owners. if I need something I use a regular running.

You can pull them into a one rein stop, I had a horse spook and start bucking and had to do that. It was not easy and I really don't like them. but since they are being trained to be sold as show arabians I think I have to train them their way. I would never put my horse on one.

It seems like they just crank the horses head down and don't really ask them to go round. ack!

wendy
Apr. 20, 2010, 02:58 PM
the idea of using a martingale of any kind on a horse out on a rough natural terrain trail makes me queasy. I've seen a couple bad horse-falls, including a horse rolling over a cliff, caused by the horse's head being restricted by the martingale and thus could not use his neck to regain his balance.
Martingales are training tools; train first, then go out on trail.