apple cider vinegar- sorry similar thread- but looking for scientific proof of effect

[luveventing]

I keep hearing everyone talk about apple cidar vinegar and all its wonderful benefits. I even recently had someone tell me it would "clean out" my mares joints. I find that really had to believe, but just wondered if there is any sort of scientific evidence that apple cider vinegar has benefical effects to the horse??? I cant imagine eating that everyday, not so sure my horse would enjoy it either!!! (that smell!!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

sorry- guess this is similiar to the other thread here I just read on vinegar.

[luveventing]

for instance I found this site ACV product analysis (http://redwoodcellars.co.nz/process.html) which says do NOT feed concentrated, that it must be diluted first, and horses should only get 5-7ml. sounds like most people are feeding more than that and at a concentrated level.

[Buffyblue]

I haven't read the other thread yet, but according to my vet, apple cider vinegar is primarily acetic acid and as such can be used by the horse as a energy source. It is unlikely to have any effect on joints, mosquitos or hair coat (or whatever else) and other than small amounts as flavoring (assuming your horse likes the taste) he didn't recommend it as a source of nutrients for the horse. As far as not feeding it concentrated, I would venture to guess that since it IS primarily acetic acid, and horses seem to be prone to gastric ulcers, I wouldn't want to give it to my horse, concentrated or otherwise.

[rileyiscuter]

Let's not forget that the stomach produces hydrochloric acid to break down food particles (then there are also enzymes secreted by the pancreas that only work in acidic conditions). Stomach cells secrete large amounts of mucus that makes a layer to protect themselves from the acid. It is loss of the protective layer that results in an ulcer. Vinegar is 4% acetic acid and even straight out of the bottle, does not compare with straight stomach acid (think of how it feels when you get heartburn which is stomach acid slipping back up your esophagus). Flavoring would be a use fro cider vinegar but as Buffyblue's vet says, other claims are unlikely to be true.

[cosmos mom]

I know the other thread said it lowers a horse's gut pH- but I'm not really sure how it would do that (or if this is would be a desired affect). It is certianly a great source for trace minerals, but and I have not heard of any scientific studies that confirm any joint protective or healing properties, nor could I find any online. In fact, the only scientific literature I could find was this:
" J Am Diet Assoc. 1987 Sep;87(9):1211-4. Related Articles, Links


Management of patients using unproven regimens for arthritis.

Wolman PG.

Such treatments as vegetarian diets, fresh or raw diets, allergy diets, no-dairy-products diets, fasting, vitamin and mineral supplementation, apple cider vinegar, and honey drinks are touted in the popular press as effective for the treatment of arthritis. In contrast to conventional therapies, the unproven treatments promise not only relief from symptoms but freedom from the disease as long as the diet regimen is followed. Several of the remedies appear to be harmless, but others are dangerous, especially if followed for prolonged periods. Nutrition professionals should be aware of the nature of these treatments and be prepared to offer sound, scientifically based but nonjudgmental care and information.

PMID: 3624710 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"

I have heard that it can be used as an insect repellent. All of the links were to natural remedy stores or little online blurbs written by unknown authors except one study which said that it MAY reduce the incidence of enteroliths in horses prone to this problem (SL Ralston). It is certianly a good topical antibacterial.

[luveventing]

thanks....this is sort of along the lines that I was thinking. I think stomach acid is something like pH2 (if I remember correctly.) and I GUESS possibly if grain/hay is more basic it would sort of work to help keep the stomach acid lower by adding the ACV, but like others have said- if there are any other stomach issues like ulcers, I dont think you would want to add soomething acidic to it. you would more want to add something more basic like calmcium carbonate which is in most of the ulcer treatmtents.

I guess I read that the acid is supposed to react with the calcium deposits in arthritis. which again acid reacts with base- but how the heck would the acid get from the stomach TO the hocks??? unless you IV'd vinegar- in which case you may have a horse with no arthritis but probably a dead horse!!

There are so many different treatments people come up with and I guess I would hate to miss out on one that MAY work because it sounds weird. but the science behind a lot of them just doesnt add up. thanks for the input!!!

[El Tovar]

the ACV is actually absorbed in the small intestines like most other nutrients. your post is like saying how does a joint supp reach hocks? its about digestion and absorption.

ACV has a profound effect on horses with arthritis and many other ails.

If it works, it is being absorbed.

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by El Tovar:
the ACV is actually absorbed in the small intestines like most other nutrients. your post is like saying how does a joint supp reach hocks? its about digestion and absorption.

ACV has a profound effect on horses with arthritis and many other ails.

If it works, it is being absorbed.

So are you trying to say that cider vinegar reaches the joints unchanged from the form it was when ingested by the horse?

[JackieBlue]

Good question, Ghazzu. I'm waiting on pins and needles for the answer to that one also.

[Ghazzu]

fwiw folks, there ain't no such thing as "gut pH" as a single value.
There are differing pH levels at dfferent parts of the GI tract.


And once you get to the other side of the GI epithelium, and thus truly "inside" an organism, the pH is pretty bloomin' stable--there are a lot of physiologic mechanisms in place to maintain it over a narrow range.

If you truly could alter body pH significantly by feeding vinegar, it would be a dangerous thing to do.

[luveventing]

I was more talking about stomach acid pH which in anatomy was taught to us at around pH 2. I am sure the whole GI tract like you said has varying pH. BODY pH would most certainly be a BAAADDD thing to mess with. I feel better at least that other people are along the same lines of reasoning as I was feeling. like I said, didnt want to miss out on something that might work, but it just didnt quite follow the logic on this one!

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by luveventing:
but it just didnt quite follow the logic on this one!

You didn't miss anthing.
There is no logic involved. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[El Tovar]

I don't disagree iwth yall, however, the stuff works on arthritis and a host of other things.

I do not know how or why, or if there is even evidence, but I don't question what works.

you should try it.

[Chanter]

Ghazzu, purely out of curiousity I have to ask, are you a licensed vet? There has been rumor enough floating around COTH about your status that I think it would just be good to clear the air for everyone about your true status. Thanks! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by Chanter:
Ghazzu, purely out of curiousity I have to ask, are you a licensed vet? There has been rumor enough floating around COTH about your status that I think it would just be good to clear the air for everyone about your true status. Thanks! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I just sent in this little form from a matchbook cover and I got this nifty pice of parchment all in Latin. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And as for status? I don't need no steenkin' *status*...

I must say, I am more than amused to be the stuff of COTH "rumors", though.

[Chanter]

Ghazzu, yor answer is exactly why the rumors fly about you. I asked purely to clear the air, & you made sure to only further muddy the waters. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Laurierace]

Not that my opinion counts for anything, but I don't see any reason why Ghazzu needs to give her qualifications here. For the most part, none of us has posted our diplomas and resumes, so why should this be any different. If you wanted to hire her as your vet I guess that might be a different story, but I don't know anyone who surfs for a vet on the net.

[Ghazzu]

Anyone who truly wants to know can easily find out.
But, if it will make you happy, you lazy people, yes, I am a graduate of a genuine accredited veterinary school, and I possess a licence to practice.

Seriously, don't you think Erin would have busted me many moons ago if it were otherwise?

Now please go roll your silly eyes somewhere else.

[Chanter]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Ghazzu]

So, I told you what you presumably wanted to hear, now you tell me--what are the rumors about me?
After all, fair's fair.

[Trails]

I've been reading all the discussions that have to do with ulcers, BOSS, Apple Cider Vinegar because like most, I am interested. I had heard a lot about the vinegar but I'm a skeptic so I started reading this thread. I get so far and then I get bickering.

I know you might tell me to mind my own business (but not in those words) but I don't see why there has to be this bickering and confrontations in the postings. It does make it quite unpleasant for the other readers/posters.
I re-read the postings and do not understand or see why this comment was made. It was so absolutely unnecessary and was provoking a negative response.

There has been rumor enough floating around COTH about your status that I think it would just be good to clear the air for everyone about your true status.

People can think what they want but things should not be in print when it interferes with others. How about getting back to the original discussion about the value / or no of apple cider vinegar.

How many others out there think it really does work for arthritis?? keeping insects away??
What about a horse with ulcers. Would you give them apple c vinegar? Right now I am still very skeptical.

[Chanter]

Trails, if you are inferring anything negative into my OP inquiring as to Ghazzu's status as a vet, you are so entirely wrong it it pathetic. I was sincerely asking so that way a lot of confusion & gossip would thus be ended!

[Pippigirl]

Ok now...the mystery is solved about identities
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ... so..back to ACV http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ...how much does everyone (well...who feeds it) give at a time? 5mL with 5mL of water? How much to see an effect

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by Chanter:
Trails, if you are inferring anything negative into my OP inquiring as to Ghazzu's status as a vet, you are so entirely wrong it it pathetic. I was sincerely asking so that way a lot of confusion & gossip would thus be ended!

Which might have been accomplished by
a) a private email
b) without reference to the still unspecified "rumors floating about",eh?

Too disingenuous by half, dear.

As to the reputed miraculous effects of ACV, I'd like to see at least one reference that has a putative explanation that isn't total gobbledegook.

The business about ACV travelling to a calcium deposit and dissolving it may be a nice story, but it's nonsense from a biological perspective.

[Rayman421]

Believe it or not, a tablespoon of ACV in water will stop Acid Reflux (in humans) Have used it many a times successfully. Don't know how it works when you think the ACV is acidic and you're putting more acid in..... so it IS likely to benefit horse digestion.

I've had old horseman tell me they use it to stop horses from chewing wood.

I have used it as a rinse - diluted, and it is wonderful for keeping away mosquitoes and noseeums for 24 hours or so. Also works great in Fl humidity to keep away nasty rain rot and such.

As far as scientific proof - I have none. Just what I have observed in use. One other note: I ALWAYS use ORGANIC ACV - the stuff with the "mother" in it.

[Trails]

you are so entirely wrong it it pathetic

Was it necessary to add the "it is pathetic"? That is the kind of comment that just provokes someone. Why say that???
Maybe I am entirely wrong and it is OK for you to point that out. No problem! But, why imply to everyone on this list, (Registered Members: 20406) that I am being "pathetic" - It sounds like you want an argument and that you are looking for a reaction. Why be like that on a public forum?
I will say no more on this as I am here to discuss horse issues and collaborate with people who wish to have responsible discussions.

Rayman421 ACV in rinse water will keep mosquitoes and noseeums away for a bit. How much ACV in the water? (ratio)

[DMK]

Originally posted by Ghazzu:
So, I told you what you presumably wanted to hear, now you tell me--what are the rumors about me?
After all, fair's fair.

Ghazzu, I could tell you, but then I would have to kill you... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Kat the Horse]

Ladies, ladies, ladies, please contain your pugilistic tendencies!

It is rather amuzing that this would come up--I just started dosing myself with ACV this weekend. I was getting a very sore throat and stuffed head, and since Monday was a holiday, I wanted to stop it NOW. I will assume it was brought on by the sub-zero weather at 7 a.m. when I arrived at The Barn to do my cleaning, etc. 3 hours of that crap makes my ears burn!

So, my dear departed granny used to dose us with ACV when we got the sniffles. Yeah, I know, granny was a crank, and she also used give us each a teaspoon of sulfur & molassas EVERY MONTH--a killer dessert if there ever was one. She had her 'nerve medicine' with the funny black crow on it in the cabinet.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

However, I'm very sensitive to most meds--tend to run amuck and hear voices on cold meds--so I just started drinking two teaspoons ACV (Heinz distilled NOT the 'flavored' stuff) in a cup of hot water three times daily on Saturday morning when I got home at 10 a.m.

Hey, yo--no sniffles today. My head is clear, eyes brite, and I'm gonna go play with the horsies later.

Now, there are MANY of the 'old' remedies that work for no rhyme or reason--at least as defined by scientific study. Too many times 'the old ways' have proved to have merit in the face of the collective pooh pooh's of human and animal medicine.

Don't rule anything out.

I've order some Bragg's Organic ACV and I'm going to start feeding it (gently, gently) to my poor Arabian mare (she who is my 'test subject' for anything and everything). I will see how this goes.

I just know that I worked VERY hard this weekend, digging frozen horsesh*t out of a frozen barn, after hauling water many many times to a tank (pipes--frozen!) and to water buckets throughout the barn). I should be sore, sick, and the devil to live with.

I feel great. I am amazed--but will give it all more testing and let y'all know!

[Appassionato]

Originally posted by Kat the Horse:
She had her 'nerve medicine' with the funny black crow on it in the cabinet.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Old Crow Whiskey?

Anyway, I've read that vitamin C assists in joint ailments, and I've seen it advertised in several joint supplements (human and equine). It's also used to develop collagen by the body. Acetic acid can be converted to vitamin C, no?

[BarbB]

When I drink ACV and honey in warm water once a day I don't get colds and sinus infections.
When I don't drink it, I get colds and sinus infections.
I know that isn't scientific proof of anything but it's good enough for me.

[MCPMalachi]

It took me a long time to figure this one out, but I am the world's biggest vinegar freak. My parents & grandparents used to have to hide it from me, or I'd drink it from the bottle. Grandma would occasionally save the "empty" pickle jars for me to drink the remaining pickle juice. I know- it sounds disgusting, but my taste buds just LOVE vinegar. I buy sweet pickles in the large industrial size jars, and I bet I go thru a jar a month. I even make my own pickles, so I don't go broke. I never figured out until several years ago when I first started hearing about feeding vinegar to horses to deter flies & insects. The point is....I NEVER get mosquito bites. The only time I can remember being bitten, was the July holiday I spent on Assateague Island in '91. So even it ACV doesn't work for anything else, I can certainly vouch for the insect deterring properties. Luckily it has no human deterring effects http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Buffyblue]

Acetic acid can be converted to vitamin C, no?


Aren't you thinking of ascorbic acid?

[deltawave]

Originally posted by El Tovar:
I don't disagree iwth yall, however, the stuff works on arthritis and a host of other things.

As evidenced by what?

I do not know how or why, or if there is even evidence, but I don't question what works.

I sure as heck do. Horrifying to think that people don't require any proof before they go pouring things into their (or their horses') bodies! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

you should try it.

WHY?

Vinegar is just freakin' VINEGAR! You can't transmit acid molecules through the bloodstream, for pity's sake--our blood pH (and that of the horse) is held VERY tightly at around 7.4 and you will be in BIG stinkin' trouble (or enormously frustrated) if you try to mess with or change that! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Thank GOD our bodies are smarter than we are most of the time.

Honestly, if it were THAT EASY to change the composition of our body tissues--hey, just drink some vinegar and your calcium deposits go away!--we'd all DISSOLVE in the presence of salad dressing or whatever.

Sheesh, what next? The lack of critical thinking with some of these urban legends is ASTOUNDING. The sad thing is that (IMO) those of us who practice "traditional" medicine are just not reaching people because of our horrible reputation for being uncaring and bad communicators. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif People would rather have hope than science, I think, if they are facing something that has an uncertain prognosis. I consider this a problem with how WE practice, but I also wish people would make the effort to be a LITTLE BIT CRITICAL of the stuff they hear on TV, the web, etc.

Rant over. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

[onehorse]

Deltawave,

Unfortunately, where am I suppose to go when Modern medicine is highly over-rated and simply lacking in knowledge? I have been looking for answers for my horse's problem for years, everywhere from the vet and extensive testing that yielded nothing to BB like this one for something, ANYTHING that might help. Everyone is looking for the same thing, to make their lives and their horses' lives just a bit better. All I want is a healthy horse.

[Kat the Horse]

And since we aren't all bubbling bags of twitching muscles and 'melted' calcium, (MCPMalichi, especially!) it is certainly apparent that VINEGAR doesn't hurt a body either.

SO, I'll take mine for my sinuses and achey breaky parts, and the OP can investigate the bug-repellent and health benefits. Whatever.

There is absolutely NO need to get all furred up, hissing away--unless, of course, somebody slips you some STRAIGHT......yikes!
:::insert pickle-juice face here::::

[deltawave]

Hey, I *like* pickle juice! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Now that you mention it, maybe that's why I'm never sick... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"Modern medicine" certainly has its flaws, and most home remedies are probably harmless. The thing that strikes me most is a lack of skepticism when it comes to stuff that just sounds LUDICROUS, when skepticism ABOUNDS for "traditional" practices. I repeat, my belief is that it is partially an inherent failing of the medical "system" in producing practitioners who are adept at communicating what they know so their patients can understand it. But OTOH, there is some burden on the recipient to make an attempt to hear what we're saying, too. And to have some healthy skepticism for the massive amounts of total BS that are out there. People have been selling snake oil for CENTURIES. Non-profitable ventures simply don't persist like that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Add to that the fact that NO branch of medicine is able to encompass everything, and there are sometimes people (and animals) whose problems defy classification. In those circumstances in particular it's easy to see where people will grasp at straws. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif HOPE trumps DATA, as I mentioned above.

It's sad! I take enormous pains to be as clear as I can, to speak in plain English and to spell out all the pros and cons, proofs and data, myth and fact. And although most of my patients really appreciate it, there are some who come in and you can just READ their body language: they DON'T want to hear it. It takes MAMMOTH effort to reach these people and sometimes you just can't.

What do those people go home and tell their family and friends? That modern medicine is "highly over-rated" and "bogus" and "a big conspiracy", etc. It breaks my heart. They certainly have a right to feel however they feel, but I take it as a failure if I can't communicate what I know with someone in a way they can at least grasp and understand.

And I am always like an hour behind because of this, by the way! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I like to talk. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Appassionato]

Originally posted by Buffyblue:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Acetic acid can be converted to vitamin C, no?


Aren't you thinking of ascorbic acid? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, ascorbic acid is vitamin C. We make new things from other things often through chemical reactions (organic) in the body. British sailors used it to help ward off scurvy I believe.

[deltawave]

Humans cannot make vitamin C, at all.

Vinegar was used EXPERIMENTALLY to treat scurvy in the 18th century. It didn't work. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/lind_james.shtml

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0GCU/is_n6_v14/ai_20152545

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by Appassionato:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buffyblue:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Acetic acid can be converted to vitamin C, no?


Aren't you thinking of ascorbic acid? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, ascorbic acid is vitamin C. We make new things from other things often through chemical reactions (organic) in the body. British sailors used it to help ward off scurvy I believe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Humans can't make ascorbic acid, period. (As you point out, they're called "Limey's" for a reason.)
Neither can guinea pigs or Mongolian fruit bats.

Ascorbic acid is produced from sugars.

[deltawave]

So the next time you're feeling vitamin C deficient and want to comisserate with a fellow creature, don't reach for that bottle of apple cider vinegar...just say "where's the mongolian fruit bat?!" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Appassionato]

The human body can't make vitamin C from glucose, that is true. But I wasn't refering to glucose or cidar (as was mentione in your article), I was refering to acetic acid.

http://www.orthomed.com/klenner.htm#body

http://www.stanford.edu/group/hopes/treatmts/antiox/k6.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C

I looked it up, it was the sauerkraut that helped Captain James Cook's men. So I guess now we have to find out if it was the vinegar used, or the lactic acid made which assited the men's vitmain C levels?

[deltawave]

Commiserate, sorry. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Can't get the "edit" thingie to work.

[deltawave]

As Ghazzu said, humans cannot manufacture, produce, make, or form vitamin C from ANY substrate. It is an essential nutrient because we cannot make our own. At all. Under any circumstances. Even from acetic acid. Period. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Ridgetop Ghost]

Well, I HEARD on COTH that Ghazzu......wait....I'm melting into



my salad bowl......

[deltawave]

Oy vey, sauerkraut is made from CABBAGE, an excellent source of vitamin C. Jeez.

[Ghazzu]

You don't need to synthesize vitamin C from sauerkraut.
It's already in there.

The human body is incapable of synthesizing vitamin c, either from glucose or from another precursor.

It needs to be present in the diet.

[deltawave]

Ghazzu, do you get the feeling we're shouting into a snowstorm? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Appassionato]

Originally posted by Ghazzu:
You don't need to synthesize vitamin C from sauerkraut.
It's already in there.

The human body is incapable of synthesizing vitamin c, either from glucose or from another precursor.

It needs to be present in the diet.

From what in the sauerkraut?

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by Appassionato:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
You don't need to synthesize vitamin C from sauerkraut.
It's already in there.

The human body is incapable of synthesizing vitamin c, either from glucose or from another precursor.

It needs to be present in the diet.

From what in the sauerkraut? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The cabbage, my little cabbage.
the cabbage.

cabbage nutrient profile (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=19)

Mien Gott....

[deltawave]

Appasionato, CABBAGE. CABBAGE, I say...you know, the main INGREDIENT in sauerkraut? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Oh I know--I'm in the twilight zone. Never mind. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Ridgetop Ghost]

So, I never get colds because of the vitamin C in the salads I eat, not because the vinegar salad dressing shoots through my veins like an acid laser beam to kill germs???????????????

Whoda thunk? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Appassionato]

Originally posted by deltawave:
Ghazzu, do you get the feeling we're shouting into a snowstorm? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Because I ask specific questions for my own learning?

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by Appassionato:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by deltawave:
Ghazzu, do you get the feeling we're shouting into a snowstorm? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Because I ask specific questions for my own learning? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well would it be so hard to think about what the ingredients of sauerkruat are and look up their nutrient content ?

And I still don't get your insistence about acetic acid in relation to ascorbic acid.

[deltawave]

No, Appassionato, certainly not. But there was a whole PAGE of answers to your question. Like 6 or 7 different forms of the same answer. Sorry if I was being offensive. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

[Appassionato]

Nope. But it still doesn't answer some biochemically related questions of mine. Hence I was searching for answers.

Edited to add, this was for Ghazzu in regards to nutrient content. I was intending to explain that I coulsn't understand the intake verses delivery.

[Appassionato]

Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Appassionato:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by deltawave:
Ghazzu, do you get the feeling we're shouting into a snowstorm? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Because I ask specific questions for my own learning? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well would it be so hard to think about what the ingredients of sauerkruat are and look up their nutrient content ?

And I still don't get your insistence about acetic acid in relation to ascorbic acid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I asked because stronger acids break apart weaker ones, no? Then ascorbic acid wouldn't survive the pH of the stomach, no?

[deltawave]

Well heck, Biochemistry was the ONLY chemistry class in which I got a decent grade. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif I still hated it, though. So don't ask me any biochemistry questions, OK? Please? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Brrrrr, ick. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by Appassionato:
Nope. But it still doesn't answer some biochemically related questions of mine. Hence I was searching for answers.

Biochemically related questions?
Which ones would those be?

[Appassionato]

Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Appassionato:
Nope. But it still doesn't answer some biochemically related questions of mine. Hence I was searching for answers.

Biochemically related questions?
Which ones would those be? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vitamin C is an organic compound, correct? How does it get past the stomach? Weaker acids break down in the presence of stronger ones? If the body cannot put it back together, how does it get back together?

[deltawave]

Ooh, ooh, I know this one! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Vitamin C is actually a SUGAR and although it is called "ascorbate" or "ascorbic acid" it does not exist as a free acid like "hydrochloric" or "acetic" or "muriatic" acid for instance in the form we eat or ingest. Just like some amino acids exist in an "--ate" form (aspartic acid aka aspartate, for instance) So it is not "broken apart" by stomach acid at all, but passes--intact--to the small intestine where it is readily absorbed.

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by Appassionato:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Appassionato:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by deltawave:
Ghazzu, do you get the feeling we're shouting into a snowstorm? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Because I ask specific questions for my own learning? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well would it be so hard to think about what the ingredients of sauerkruat are and look up their nutrient content ?

And I still don't get your insistence about acetic acid in relation to ascorbic acid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I asked because stronger acids break apart weaker ones, no? Then ascorbic acid wouldn't survive the pH of the stomach, no? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The form consumed is one of the various salts--such as calcium ascorbate.
That dissociates in the acidic solution into ionized calcium and ascorbic acid.

[Appassionato]

Now that makes more sense!

There's calcium in fruit?

[deltawave]

Not a whole lot, in general. The "salts" refer to the type of vitamin C you get in a pill or chewable.

[deltawave]

But I actually have no idea in what "form" vitamin C exists in fruit! Tasty? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by Appassionato:
Now that makes more sense!

There's calcium in fruit?

Do your own homework.
Google is your friend.
But learn to evaluate your sources.

[Appassionato]

I guess that brings us back (unfortunately) to the OP, and questioning apple cider vinegar's claims. Does apple cider vinegar have vitamin C in it? From the apple if it's true apple cider vinegar? Of course the apple cider vinegar sites claim so, but nothing seems to be found in regards to medical research either way.

[Amchara]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

COTH drama just beats the crap out highschool drama!

[deltawave]

From the article I cited above: (way back before we all got crazy last night) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Apple cider vinegar is anything but a storehouse of nutrients. A nutritional analysis of one tablespoon (more than the one or two teaspoons suggested to make a tonic) reveals that the golden liquid contains less than a gram of carbohydrate: minuscule amounts of calcium, iron, magnesium, sodium. copper, manganese, and phosphorus; and a mere 15 mg of potassium. The fiber, vitamin, and amino acid content is zero.

As for the presence of any beneficial enzymes in apple cider vinegar or the "mother," food scientists doubt that any could thrive in the acid environment of the vinegar. Assuming any were present, though, they would be destroyed in the acid of the stomach when consumed and be of no use to the body.

[Bacchus]

Basically, luveventing, from what I can tell, there is no scientific proof that ACV does a darn thing. However, many people believe it works and has helped them and/or their horses. If you want to try it, go for it. I hope it helps you. I feed it to my horse. Even naysayers like deltawave have their own beliefs. I think deltawave advocates flax seed for shiny coats, but I haven't seen any double-blind studies on flax seed and its effects on horses' coats. Can't even imagine why deltawave started feeding it except that other people swore it worked. (I'm terribly sorry, deltawave, if I am wrong. If I am, please point me to the double-blind "good" scientific studies on the benefits of flax for horses.) So, if you're interested, go for it with the ACV--maybe you will be suprised.

[Ghazzu]

There's at least a plausible reason that flax seed would improve a horse's coat.

And neither she nor I have demanded peer-reviewed double blind controlled trials on ACV. We'd just like to see some putative mechanism for all the wonders ascribed to it, rather than stuff which is, at best, fantastical in nature. (Although worth a good laugh--at least some of it. "Most calcium compound molecules are physically larger than our cells.")

[Rayman421]

Trails - sorry for the delay in the answer

ACV ratio to water in a rinse is:

unfortunately I measure this the same way I do when I cook - my guesstimate, about a half a small bottle (you'd buy in a store) to 5 gal pail of water. That's a slight half, not a generous one. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

It does sting the eyes, so avoid getting it sponged in horse's eyes.

Also it is good on people's scalp - every year if I don't wash my hair in the summer after wearing a helmet, I get the "itchies" and vinegar rinse on the scalp cures it instantly.
(probably a fungus!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[seal]

Who the heck even cares is there is *scientific* proof that it works? The scientists just discovered a low fat diet doesn't help prevent cancer. Are you going to start chowing down on hamburgers and french fries because of it?

Seriously, there is no placebo affect in animals, so if you notice an improvemnent then it is effective. Simply put: IT WORKS.

I have used apple cider vinegar and Bug Check for fly allergies, and I have found that my poor gelding who was covered in itchy bites with patches of skin missing on his neck and face, recovered almost overnight. The incessant itching calmed down considerably to the point it was almost a non issue.

True, he was wearing a fly mask, sheet and boots, but I was unable to locate a neck cover to fit him, and the bites on his neck and cheek disappeared as soon as skin grew to replace the bald patches. Most importantly, he did not get any new bites.

That to me is proof it works.

[cosmos mom]

Wait, Ghazzu, a vet? I thought the rumor was that she was a little green space alien that appeared on the later episodes of The Flintstones!!!! Why am I always left out of the loop??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Bacchus]

Sorry, Ghazzu, but deltawave has stated that she will not put anything in her body or her horse's that hasn't been proved to work by scientific research. With the flax, I feel she's been a bit hypocritical. If she's going to dispute everything else out there that other people have seen work but hasn't been proved to work, she shouldn't be feeding her horse flax, or she should be more understanding that maybe, just maybe, some of these things do help. We can't all be making this stuff up. Just as I'm sure she's not making up that flax helped her horse's coat. If other people have seen such huge improvements in their horses with ACV, it's plausible enough for me and for many others that maybe it does help.

[seal]

Sorry, Ghazzu, but deltawave has stated that she will not put anything in her body or her horse's that hasn't been proved to work by scientific research. With the flax, I feel she's been a bit hypocritical. If she's going to dispute everything else out there that other people have seen work but hasn't been proved to work, she shouldn't be feeding her horse flax, or she should be more understanding that maybe, just maybe, some of these things do help. We can't all be making this stuff up. Just as I'm sure she's not making up that flax helped her horse's coat. If other people have seen such huge improvements in their horses with ACV, it's plausible enough for me and for many others that maybe it does help

No kidding. It's far better to be open minded. You learn a lot more that way.

Our horses tell us every day how they are feeling, all we have to do is just be quiet enough, and have the patience to take the time to listen.

[luveventing]

my only reasoning in bringing up this topic is that if you asked around EVERYTHING works for EVERY horse at some point or another. there are just SOOO many theories as to what works and what doesnt...esp when you talk about natural remedies that if I listened to the stories that everyone had about their miracle cures, I wouldnt be able to even decide WHAT to give my horse. I definitely believe if something works, use it. I just dont feel comfortable giving my horse everything under the sun because SOMEONE says it works. I just like a little more proof before I feed my horse something new.
exhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif flax, sunflower seeds, ACV, acupuncture, massage, chiropractic work, natural herb remedies, corn oil vs canola oil, the EPSM, the non EPSM diet, which ulcer medication- tums vs neighlox vs gastroguard... it'll make your head spin!

there are so many trends in what works for horses, its hard to decifer it all as whats bogus and what REALLY works!!

[egontoast]

Why does it work?

Don't forget the placebo effect (on the owners)

That said, I am feeding one horse ACV.

[cosmos mom]

Sorry, Ghazzu, but deltawave has stated that she will not put anything in her body or her horse's that hasn't been proved to work by scientific research. With the flax, I feel she's been a bit hypocritical. If she's going to dispute everything else out there that other people have seen work but hasn't been proved to work, she shouldn't be feeding her horse flax, or she should be more understanding that maybe, just maybe, some of these things do help. We can't all be making this stuff up. Just as I'm sure she's not making up that flax helped her horse's coat. If other people have seen such huge improvements in their horses with ACV, it's plausible enough for me and for many others that maybe it does help.

Shannon
well, flax seed is a grain. It is a widely held belief that adding oils or high fat grains see a difference in the sheen of the coat. Also, there have been scientific studies that show that flax seed oil decreases blood cholesterol levels and atherosclerotic plaques (studies in rats and hamsters show this). The mechanism of action is well documented. It is not really fair to compair the use of an oily seed to add sheen to an animal's coat to the use of vinegar to cure major equine pathologies such as arthritis. How does ACV clear out arthritic joints?

[Bacchus]

Not my point, cosmos mom. My point is that deltawave said she would not feed her horse anything that wasn't scientifically proved to work on horses (good, double-blind, etc., test). If you are going to do one thing because other people say it works, don't discredit everything else. It's extremely hypocritical. From her other posts, "widely held belief" means nothing to deltawave. And rats and hamsters aren't horses. If you believe what other say about ACV, try it. If it works for you, great, if not, so be it.

[deltawave]

deltawave has stated that she will not put anything in her body or her horse's that hasn't been proved to work by scientific research

I have??? Really, how odd. I give my horses water, hay, beet pulp, and yes--flaxseed, among other things. Call me someone who lives on the edge, LOL.

Care to cite the chapter and verse where I said the above? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I don't believe I've EVER said that people shouldn't or mustn't or can't do whatever they damn well please with themselves or their animals. I have OFTEN stated, however, that I'm astounded by the lack of skepticism and rational thinking that is behind some of these nutty dietary supplements, remedies and other assorted bogusness.

The problem is that nobody NEEDS to keep making stuff up...once something has established even a KERNEL of plausibility, people tend to latch onto it and stuff gets perpetuated beyond all reason. It is human nature.

I don't really do this to change people's minds--I have learned better through years of experience--but I do hope I am entitled to make my points and I also hope I am able to do so clearly. Bacchus, if you can show me where I said "I wouldn't feed my horse anything that wasn't scientifically proved to work on horses" I will publicly apologize, right after I go back and review my grammar book from 8th grade. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And I have never told anyone to NOT use something, so your final statement is something I also freely agree with: if it works for you, great, if not, so be it. But please (this is a general injunction, not specifically aimed at Bacchus) don't spew or perpetuate pseudoscientific crap because it is just pitiful. Just because an ad says "scientifically proven" or "based on Nobel-prize winning research" (my personal favorite) it doesn't mean SQUAT. If you're going to defend a particular remedy based on its "science", you had better be prepared to KNOW something about science, research, etc. Or at least know something about marketing, because that is mostly who is writing the ads, articles, and testimonials: marketers. If, however, you're content with "this sounds good to me", then hey, best of luck.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[cosmos mom]

Bacchus, my point is that you are comparing the use of a grooming aid to that of a compound that supposedly cures pathologies- Isn't it possible that Deltawave was referring to the use of the latter? Does that really make her a hypocrite? And, yes, while rats and hamsters are not horses, my point was that flax seed has documented studies of it being used to treat certian pathologies, while there are no documented studies of ACV being used for any of the things it is claimed to treat.

[Ghazzu]

There is at least one published study regarding the benefits of flax seed that utilized a placebo-controlled, double-blind, cross-over trial.
There may be more, but I happen to have a copy of this particular abstract.

And yes, the test subjects were horses.

[RAyers]

I finally have to chime in on this topic. There is nothing in ACV that would indicate it to be an effective treatment for arthritis. First of all, there are many different forms or arthritis (bacterial, enteropahtic, traumatic, neuropahtic, ankylosing spondylitis, etc.). Some of these are GENETIC and some are environmental. One can NOT determine what type of arthritis a horse has without significant diagnosis. It is foolish to make a blanket statement that ACV will treat arthritis. I would love to see it work on ankylosing spondylitis since the destruction of the synovium and cartilage is genetic!

I actually can see how ACV would help in arthritis caused by Crohn's Disease (enteropathic arthritis) as it would help treat the GI tract symptoms thus alleviating some of the inflammation that can manifest in the joints.

I would NEVER want excess calcium in arthritic conditions! The fibrocartilage that is present in the joint is already mineralizing and to add more Ca to the mix just makes things worse.

Specifically to Shannon, the use of rats and hamsters actually is VERY equivalent to horses in certain physiological and biological conditions. That is why we use them instead of horses or people. So, please don't dismiss the data from that work completely.

Reed

[deltawave]

I tell my patients who ask me about flaxseed that if nothing else it will make their fur shiny. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Then I point out to them the *gasp* PUBLISHED RESEARCH that shows omega-3 and omega-6 oils are beneficial in cardiac patients.

I might be guilty of "hypocrisy" with the shiny fur thing...after all, it hasn't been STUDIED in humans WRT shiny hair. However, my patients can take a joke. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If they ask me about ACV, magnets, all that other stuff, I point out to them all the published research proving their benefits. Takes no time at all...in fact, LITERALLY no time at all, if you get my drift. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Bacchus]

deltawave, I was referring to this statement of yours: "But when it comes to putting stuff into or doing stuff to our bodies, yes, those of us who "do" that sort of thing to other people CARE VERY DEEPLY about the type of science we're going by, how well (or poorly) it's done, and the way it can impact people.

And horses."

What intrigues me more right now, though, is your questioning the sentence "I wouldn't feed my horse anything that wasn't scientifically proved to work on horses." I hope you aren't questioning "proved." You'd be wrong.

[Ghazzu]

Interesting form of argument--misquote someone and then infer they are backpeddling when they correct you.

[Amchara]

Fats and Fatty Acids
Amounts Per Selected Serving %DV
Total Fat g
Saturated Fat g
4:0 mg
6:0 mg
8:0 mg
10:0 mg
12:0 mg
13:0 mg
14:0 mg
15:0 mg
16:0 mg
17:0 mg
18:0 mg
19:0 mg
20:0 mg
22:0 mg
24:0 mg
Monounsaturated Fat g
14:1 mg
15:1 mg
16:1 undifferentiated mg
16:1 c mg
16:1 t mg
17:1 mg
18:1 undifferentiated mg
18:1 c mg
18:1 t mg
20:1 mg
22:1 undifferentiated mg
22:1 c mg
22:1 t mg
24:1 c mg
Polyunsaturated Fat g
16:2 undifferentiated mg
18:2 undifferentiated mg
18:2 n-6 c,c mg
18:2 c,t mg
18:2 t,c mg
18:2 t,t mg
18:2 i mg
18:2 t not further defined mg
18:3 mg
18:3 n-3 c,c,c mg
18:3 n-6 c,c,c mg
18:4 undifferentiated mg
20:2 n-6 c,c mg
20:3 undifferentiated mg
20:3 n-3 mg
20:3 n-6 mg
20:4 undifferentiated mg
20:4 n-3 mg
20:4 n-6 mg
20:5 n-3 mg
22:2 mg
22:5 n-3 mg
22:6 n-3 mg
Total trans fats g
Total trans-monoenoic fats g
Total trans-polyenoic fats

Other
Amounts Per Selected Serving %DV
Alcohol g
Water g
Ash g
Caffeine mg
Theobromine mg

Sterols
Amounts Per Selected Serving %DV
Cholesterol mg
Phytosterols mg
Campesterol mg
Stigmasterol mg
Beta-sitosterol mg

Minerals
Amounts Per Selected Serving %DV
Calcium mg
Iron mg
Magnesium mg
Phosphorus mg
Potassium mg
Sodium mg
Zinc mg
Copper mg
Manganese mg
Selenium mcg

Vitamins
Amounts Per Selected Serving %DV
Vitamin A IU
Retinol mcg
Retinol Activity Equivalent mcg
Alpha Carotene mcg
Beta Carotene mcg
Beta Cryptoxanthin mcg
Lycopene mcg
Lutein+Zeaxanthin mcg
Vitamin C mg
Vitamin D
Vitamin E mg
Beta Tocopherol
Gamma Tocopherol
Delta Tocopherol
Thiamin mg
Riboflavin mg
Niacin mg
Vitamin B6 mg
Folate mcg
Food Folate mcg
Folic Acid mcg
Dietary Folate Equivalents mcg
Vitamin B12 mcg
Pantothenic Acid mg
Vitamin K mcg

Protein & Amino Acids
Amounts Per Selected Serving %DV
Protein g
Tryptophan mg
Threonine mg
Isoleucine mg
Leucine mg
Lysine mg
Methionine mg
Cystine mg
Phenylalanine mg
Tyrosine mg
Valine mg
Arginine mg
Histidine mg
Alanine mg
Aspartic acid mg
Glutamic acid mg
Glycine mg
Proline mg
Serine mg
Hydroxyproline mg

Carbohydrates
Amounts Per Selected Serving %DV
Total Carbohydrate g
Dietary Fiber g
Starch g
Sugars g
Sucrose mg
Glucose mg
Fructose mg
Lactose mg
Maltose mg
Galactose mg

Food Energy
Amounts Per Selected Serving %DV
Calories
Calories from Alcohol
Calories from Carbohydrate
Calories from Fat
Calories from Protein

[Amchara]

Forgot to add:

One theory about how this stuff could work: http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Giving ACV to you mare before, during and after breeding to help better the chance of getting a filly. The acidity in the vinegar kills of the weaker, male sperm

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by Amchara:
Forgot to add:

One theory about how this stuff could work: http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Giving ACV to you mare before, during and after breeding to help better the chance of getting a filly. The acidity in the vinegar kills of the weaker, male sperm

Only if the ACV is used as a douche.

[Buffyblue]

The acidity in the vinegar kills of the weaker, male sperm

What dosage do you recommend for this? I was thinking of doubling the dosage and using it as birth control!

[Bacchus]

misquote someone and then infer they are backpeddling when they correct you
What? I never inferred that she was back-peddling. (I also never quoted her.) I'm a writer/editor, and I want to know what she thinks is wrong with the sentence.

I do apologize for paraphrasing deltawave incorrectly. However, I was shocked to see that she had promoted flax for a shiny coat. It seems not very different from feeding ACV because others have seen improvements in their horses.

Why can't you just say, "No scientific studies have been performed on ACV in horses," and be done with it? Let those people who have seen proof that ACV works share it with the rest of us. If you've seen proof that ACV doesn't work or harms horses, let us know. Simple enough.

Please tell us if you know we might be harming our horses, but please don't berate us for trying to help our horses based on anecdotal evidence. Sometimes it's all we have to go by.

[Ghazzu]

I don't believe I have yet berated a soul here for feeding ACV to a horse.

I *have* criticized wholesale swallowing of nonsense clothed in pseudoscientific gobbledegook.

As my clients are well aware, I have no objection to the use of various nutraceuticals, herbs, etc. so long as the animal consuming them is unharmed by their consumption and the source is not inappropriate (eg, shark cartilage and coral calcium are both unjustifiable IMHO). But I may make a crack or two about pouring money down a hole...or about the nonsense often used to promote some nostrums.

But I will

[cosmos mom]

Please tell us if you know we might be harming our horses, but please don't berate us for trying to help our horses based on anecdotal evidence. Sometimes it's all we have to go by.
Bacchus, the OP was asking for scientific proof that AVC does or does not do the things people were claiming that it did in the other thread. Why post a response at all if you are not answering the original question? Obviously the OP knows that people believe that AVC works to cure all kinds of things, that is why she created a post asking for sceintific evidence.

[deltawave]

Couldn't have said it better myself. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I will stipulate the quibble on proven vs. proved. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Sorry to have shocked you, Bacchus, but if you insist on being literal-minded about my defense of "science" (when in fact in the context of the snippet you quoted I would also include that sometimes there IS no science), let me shock you further by saying that I also put shoes on my horses, blanket them, deworm them, vaccinate them, and give them TREATS. Guilty, guilty I say! I throw myself on the mercy of your sense of humor. Or irony. Or whatever. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

No studies have been performed on ACV in horses? I would gladly say that and be done with it, but I honestly haven't reviewed the horsey literature on that subject. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Lookout]

Originally posted by deltawave:
I sure as heck do. Horrifying to think that people don't require any proof before they go pouring things into their (or their horses') bodies! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

The standard has been set.

Horrifying!

Originally posted by deltawave:
No studies have been performed on ACV in horses? I would gladly say that and be done with it, but I honestly haven't reviewed the horsey literature on that subject. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Seems you'd rather skip over that fact, and say it's nonsense because there aren't any studies. Repeatedly.

[DMK]

It's like this thread is the Intelligent Design of the supplements world. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Flying Spaghetti Monster would be so proud!

[deltawave]

Oh for pity's sake, I thought I took myself a little too seriously sometimes! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Context, people, CONTEXT. And skepticism, that would be good, too. In fact, I'm simply *delighted* to see all this skepticism coming out, even if it's directed at me, LOL! Have at it, and while you're at it why not pick apart some of the ridiculous claims of your favorite Snake Oil type product the way you're picking apart stuff I've said? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Intelligent Design and Cider Vinegar...you know, that analogy is pretty darn good. Unfortunately I can't officially espouse the analogy without some data. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

So now I'm caught up...did a vetline/medline search on ACV for horses. I'll now stand by the comment I made above on research and this product. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I didn't find many horsey citations. There are a few rather interesting general studies of the stuff, though...I invite you all to look them up! And if you need a laugh, here is a link to the ONLY citation I could find that has "horse" and "vinegar" in it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (warning, not for the squeamish) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/452423?src=search

If you get more scientific http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and do a search for "acetic acid" and "equine" you get one study that found that acetic acid impaired the mucosal barrier in horsey stomachs. There goes your ulcer prevention theory, more than likely.

[DMK]

Intelligent Design and Cider Vinegar...you know, that analogy is pretty darn good. Unfortunately I can't officially espouse the analogy without some data.


Here, try this. (http://www.venganza.org/) That should make everything perfectly clear. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[deltawave]

Oh. My. God (with all due respect to the Supreme Being. I believe He must surely have a sense of humor because he made us how he made us...or whatever) that is the funniest thing I've seen in SUCH a long time! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I am going to buy me some STUFF from that website! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Folks around here (the rightest of right-wing fundamentalist righty places) will just LOOOOVE it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Thank you for the link!

[cosmos mom]

OMG- I LOVE that site!!!!! Thanks for brightening my day DMK!

[Lookout]

Hmm. Good order. Make a statement, then go looking for studies to see if what you said is correct.
Originally posted by deltawave:
So now I'm caught up...did a vetline/medline search on ACV for horses. I'll now stand by the comment I made above on research and this product. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I didn't find many horsey citations. There are a few rather interesting general studies of the stuff, though...I invite you all to look them up! And if you need a laugh, here is a link to the ONLY citation I could find that has "horse" and "vinegar" in it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (warning, not for the squeamish) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/452423?src=search

If you get more scientific http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and do a search for "acetic acid" and "equine" you get one study that found that acetic acid impaired the mucosal barrier in horsey stomachs. There goes your ulcer prevention theory, more than likely.

[deltawave]

No no, you have to read the thread carefully. I never MADE any statement in this case. I quoted another poster who encouraged me to say "no studies have been done" etc. (see below, posted by Bacchus)

Why can't you just say, "No scientific studies have been performed on ACV in horses," and be done with it?

and then said I hadn't reviewed the literature and therefore I couldn't say what she encouraged me to say. (see below, posted by me)

I would gladly say that and be done with it, but I honestly haven't reviewed the horsey literature on that subject


Then I reviewed the literature. In that order. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Honestly, these ad hominems do nothing but make people hate each other. I already apologized--pages ago--for being antagonistic with the "cabbage" stuff. I'm not attacking anyone personally, just trying to poke holes in some really silly myths. I have a thick skin and like to spar with words, but now it feels like the message I'm trying to put across is getting lost in the bickering. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif So peace, people. Do as you please and I hope you and your horses are healthy and well. If you're really interested in learning more about ACV and its putative benefits, take Ghazzu's advice: Google is your friend, but watch where you're getting your information. Also maybe take the advice of PT Barnum as well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Lookout]

HA HA HA HA HA!

I just have to laugh. I've done a followup consultation with my horse's nutritionist and just got the results, and she recommended 1/2 t. apple cider vinegar a day, to improve protein digestion.

Since she has essentially cured him of his Cushing's, I'm not really gonna question it. I will say though, that he does produce an insufficient amount of stomach acid.

[deltawave]

A half teaspoon? Genuinely curious now, did you ask her to tell you why she thought that would work? Regardless of what's in ACV, (mostly acetic acid, see a few pages back) that seems like a pretty tiny amount of anything to effect the digestion of the amount of food a horse eats.

I was tempted to post this under an alter--I'm sure you have no inclination to even answer this coming from me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif--but it's not my style, so here goes: doesn't a half teaspoon of vinegar seem like an awfully trivial thing to be able to effect the digestive system of something as big as a horse? Did your nutritionist offer you any data? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (PEACE, remember? In addition to not believing too many things based on conventional wisdom, I am also genuinely curious as to why other people DO)

[Lookout]

Originally posted by deltawave:
doesn't a half teaspoon of vinegar seem like an awfully trivial thing to be able to effect the digestive system of something as big as a horse? Did your nutritionist offer you any data? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Yep, it sure does.
Why don't we just leave it this way - I'll let you know if it worked.

[mickeydoodle]

Good grief, this subject again. In human literature there is absolutely no scientific proof of any benefit- none, zip, zilch. If you want to feed it fine, but there is nothing to back it up scientifically.

[Kat the Horse]

Lookout--I bet she meant 1/2 cup.

With all due respect the His Holy Spaghetti, I take severe ...uh...umbrage at the fact that KANSAS figured so prominently in the 'cc' line of that letter. Hrump! Folks, we're just trying to do what the voices tell us!

Concerning the ACV, it has done wonders for my nightly sour stomach. It also wiped out the onion taste I was suffering from post-hubby's cassarole. Too many tomatoes, too much onion, none of it done enough. I don't complain, but I bless the day I found ACV!

Deltawave--let me guess--you are a doctor! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif (this is silly humor, okay?)



*** and I just had the thought. Do you all remember that college somewheres out east where the big deal was you had to ASK before you performed any sexual overtures, etc? "May I now kiss you?" "May I now grab your ***?"

Our humor on this thread has just a *hint* of that performance anxiety to it.

Deltawave, will I now feel a bit of pressure (OUCH! DAMMIT!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[deltawave]

Kat, yes I am. But maybe it's the lack of caffeine thus far this morning...the last part of your post went right over my head! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Maybe it will come to me during rounds today and I'll suddenly blush or laugh out loud. Looking forward to it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Amchara]

This is published:

Self, Hilary. A Modern Horse Herbal. 1st ed. Addington: Kenilworth Press, 2001.

There are many references to cider vinegar in this book, and I make no apology for that fact. It is something I give to all my animals, both young and old, reguardless of their state of health. I also have a teaspoon in my water three times a day and my parents swear by it for their arthritis.
Cider Vinegar is reguarded by most natural therapists as a bit of a 'cure-all', and certainly, if some of the old herbals I have read are anything to go by, it has been used for hundreds of years both internally and externally for virtually any problem you care to mention. It is particularly rich in pottassium and carries over all of the minerals contained in the original apple, such as phosphorus, chlorine, sodium, magnesium, calcium, sulphur, iron, and silicon and many trace minerals. What I have found, both for myself and my animals, is that it is ideal for cleansing blood impurities, reducing calcification in joints and arteries, and improving over all health.
Cider Vinegar can be used externally as an antispetic on conditions such as ringworm, and as an astringentit is particularly helpful in reducing irritation in sweet itch cases- add 2 tablespoons of cider vinegar to 1 litre/2 pints of water and use as a mane and tail rinse.
A woman in Germany told me that she had a mare who had suffered from auxotoria for many years, and would not respond to treatment or change of managment. She started giving the mare 50ml of Cider Vinegar daily on the advice of a friend and has not had any repetition of the condition since. That was two years ago.
It is important to try and obtain good quality cider vinegar, produced is possible from organically grown apples. Try and find a vinegar made from the whole apple rather then just the core and skins that are left over after the flesh has been pulped.
Cider Vinegar can be fed in one of two ways, either by adding it to the drinking water or by pouring it over the animals feed. I have found both methods to acceptable, but some horses are not keen on vinegar in their water. An average dose is about 10 tablespoons or 50ml per day. I have to say that I just tend to 'pour a glug' of cider vinegar rather then measure it, and my horses and my dogs love it. You can add cider vinegar to drinking troughs where it can work in am almost homeopathic way-as little as 2 tablespoons added to the drinking trough 3-4 times a week, depending on usage, will help gently dose the animals.

[deltawave]

Apple cider vinegar is anything but a storehouse of nutrients. A nutritional analysis of one tablespoon (more than the one or two teaspoons suggested to make a tonic) reveals that the golden liquid contains less than a gram of carbohydrate; minuscule amounts of calcium, iron, magnesium, sodium, copper, manganese, and phosphorus; and a mere 15 mg of potassium. The fiber, vitamin, and amino acid content is zero

Interesting that one citation claims it contains so many things when the actual analysis of the stuff (again, linked several pages back) showed not very much was in it at all. So which "published" version is correct? A "trace mineral" is something that is only REQUIRED in trace amounts; no fair saying that trace amounts being present qualifies that substance as a "trace" mineral. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif


What I have found, both for myself and my animals, is that it is ideal for cleansing blood impurities, reducing calcification in joints and arteries

How has this author "found" that her blood was more pure--or for that matter, how on earth does blood become "impure" in the first place? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif How has she determined that her arteries are less calcified? If she knows how, I certainly would love to hear about it--might save my patients a whole lot of radiation, invasive procedures and all that icky, nasty medical stuff. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[DMK]

how on earth does blood become "impure" in the first place?

deltawave, everyone knows her sanguine humour, the blood humour of the four humours, became tainted. Honestly, this stuff has been known forEVER!

[cosmos mom]

Published dosent mean scientifically proven. Penthouse is also published.

[egontoast]

Published dosent mean scientifically proven. Penthouse is also published

Are you saying those bazoongies cannot be authenticated by scientific method?

[monstrpony]

I want to know how the nutritionist cured the Cushings. Isn't Cushings a slow-growing tumor? Can nutritional changes kill a tumor? I guess it might put it into remission, but wouldn't the part of the pituitary already affected by the now-dead tumor still be non-functional? As in, at best it would keep the condition from getting worse, right?

[cosmos mom]

re you saying those bazoongies cannot be authenticated by scientific method?
They can be authenticated by xray, ultrasound, squeeze-n-pinch or, my favorite...lay down on the bed and see if they fall off to the side!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[deltawave]

Or by cardiac stress test...darn things masquerade as large areas of infarcted heart muscle. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif But if you sprinkle some vinegar on them they dissolve...or is that the infarcted heart muscle? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[RAyers]

Cosmos mom,

When we say published, we mean published in peer reviewed scientific journals. These papers must undergo review by other scientists (such as me, I review for Elsevier on the topics of materials science and biomaterials) who can either accept or reject the paper and its findings based on the validity of the science conducted. Yes, there is a lot of crap science that does get published but it is usually in poor, not highly distributed journals. I find that this method tends to keep most researchers honest.

By the way, I had a friend that worked for Time Warner, Publisher for Penthouse, and the letters are made up by a bunch of staff writers. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Reed

[cosmos mom]

When we say published, we mean published in peer reviewed scientific journals. These papers must undergo review by other scientists (such as me, I review for Elsevier on the topics of materiasl science and biomaterials) who can either accept or reject the paper and its findings. Yes, there is a lot of crap science that does get published but this method tends to keep researchers honest.
Yep- I totally agree with you. The better journals do a good job of not printing literature based on poor science. I was responding to amchara's post that was published (in an herbal journal), but purely antic dotal. My point was that anyone can write about their experience and have it published somewhere (online, in a magazine or local newspaper), but it is not a scientific study published in a respected journal. Sounds like the staff writers have more fun than we do in the lab all day! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Lookout]

Originally posted by monstrpony:
Isn't Cushings a slow-growing tumor? Can nutritional changes kill a tumor? I guess it might put it into remission, but wouldn't the
I guess technically speaking, it (the non-tumor variety) is more accurately called Metabolic Syndrome today. But it was called Cushings before they invented that term, and most people are still calling it that.

[Lookout]

Originally posted by Kat the Horse:
Lookout--I bet she meant 1/2 cup.

No.

[Adamantane]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by luveventing:
I ... just wondered if there is any sort of scientific evidence that apple cider vinegar has benefical effects to the horse??? QUOTE]

What a neat thread!

Couple thoughts.

First, vinegar, whether from apple cider or otherwise, is pretty benign stuff, especially as someone pointed out in such small quantities relative to the size and volume of a horse (or a person).

A good guideline to live by could be called the "chicken soup theory" after the old TV ad slogan: "It couldn't hurt." So whether there is evidence or not, there's not much downside to trying. And it's very cheap.

Second, the non-availability of a study that documents an effect, or a theory that might explain some effect if it exists, doesn't really argue that an effect doesn’t exist. It's comforting to have studies and to have theories that account for observed results, but long before many things were systematically documented or explained, they were true and observed only anecdotally.

Finally, riley, cosmo, luv et al., did a good job of pointing out that if there *is* a systemic effect of ACV or of plain vinegar (5% aqueous acetic acid), it almost certainly doesn't come from the *acidic* part, given the strong normal acidity of parts of the digestive tract (which I'm assuming is as true for horses as for humans).

So if there is an effect, what might be left in the ACV to cause it? Acetate ions and/or un-ionized acetic acid (since acetic acid is not completely dissociated in water), and/or any other stray organics and trace minerals that accompany the acetic acid in cider vinegar. (Those trace components from the apple carried along into the vinegar which discolor it and which are essentially absent in purified white vinegar).

Interestingly, nobody claims any special properties for apples or apple juice, though things identical or similar to many of those traces probably are released or formed when apples are digested in a high acid environment.

Acetate is chemically very simple and important in many metabolic pathways and feedback loops. It also is a step away from being ultimately metabolized into carbon dioxide and water, which eventually is lost by exhalation or excreted by some other route.

My guess is that if vinegar or cider vinegar does anything, whatever it might do is probably driven by that extra supply of acetate or undissociated acetic acid. (High stomach acid pushes the equilibrium of dissociated acetic acid back toward undissociated, at least in the stomach.)

So it might be interesting to study what loading up a biological system with extra acetate might do biochemically, or do to change the distribution/partitioning of acetate. Probably that's been pretty thoroughly studied somewhere.

In any event there's no reason not to experiment a little until such time as somebody demonstrates what is (or might be) happening.

There tends to be at least some rational basis for most folk remedies, especially those that cropped up in several unconnected places around the world.

While your horse probably wouldn't want chicken soup http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, try the apple cider vinegar. It couldn't hurt. (And if it is beneficial, try the same amount of plain vinegar instead just for the fun of it!)

[EqTrainer]

This thread reminds me of my grandma telling me to eat dandelion leaves in the spring, as a tonic. No way!

Now here I am, a grown woman, who just recently did a herbal detox. Guess what one of the ingredients was? Dandelion leaves.

Going to give my funky rescue horse a little ACV tomorrow, what can it hurt?

[Weebonilass]

EqTrainer,

My Southern grandmother looooooooooooved fresh Dandelion greens. They were her favorite. Me, oh the other hand I'm suspicious of anything green or in the veggie category http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[myhorsefaith]

ok, so there is some question about ACV's effectiveness when ingested...

now, what about used as a topical treatment?

-Ally

[deltawave]

Originally posted by myhorsefaith:
ok, so there is some question about ACV's effectiveness when ingested...

To say the least! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

now, what about used as a topical treatment?

Again, the question "what is the intended purpose?" needs to be asked. It is a mild acid and not much more than that. If there's a skin problem that would benefit from a mild acid application, then maybe it would help. Don't know what those might be, but doesn't mean there aren't some things. Then you go to a site that has medline or vetline and you search "acetic acid" "equine" "topical" or some combination thereof and you see if there's anything published. Then you decide. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Lookout]

Next time someone here has their vet make a shoeing "prescription" for the farrier, please, please ask for the study that he's basing that "prescription" on, and report it here. (or any vet recommendation for that matter). Because as we know, everything a vet recommends is based on (good) science.

[deltawave]

Must be very boring in that black and white world of yours, lookout. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Appassionato]

Originally posted by myhorsefaith:
ok, so there is some question about ACV's effectiveness when ingested...

now, what about used as a topical treatment?

-Ally

I would like to comment about the topical use of vinegar! One, it helps cut the soap when rinsing a horse after a bath. Two, I use it especially if I have used bleach to take care of fungal infections. That was told to me by the vet. Maybe it helps reset the skin's pH?

[Sannois]

I hate to bring this up again, But I do know one thing it is good for, in Humans! Heartburn. A tablespoon, and heart burns gone in a few seconds. Sounds like it would be the last thing you would want. has to do with the lack of acid in the stomach, that causes it to rise up. and burn! I tried it, it works! Oh and mixed with Avon skin so soft and Natural Citronella oil it makes a killer summer bug repellant!!

[ML]

Ok if it would work on a human would it work for a horse or the other way around. Test it on your self first idea. Does ACV suggested for those with joint problems on people etc?

I like things that are approved by the FDA etc and alot is spent on seeing what works on people. My favorite horse items come from walmart etc cause they are safe for people and normally a better price.

I only worry that ACV would be too acid for my horses tummy ulcers to even try it. That being said I am a not going to drink aloe vera juice for a upset tummy. They seem to like it.

I would rather spray it ( ACV) on my horse to keep flies off but they say it hurts if they have some bites already.

ML

[Bacchus]

ML, yes, many people recommend ACV for joint problems in humans. I'm sure there's no scientific research, but some of us are open-minded and willing to trust what other people say. It's cheap, and I've never heard of ACV harming anything.

Be careful, though, of using things on your hrose because they are approved for people--doesn't always work that way. Humans and horses are built differentlyhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ML]

Bacchus my favorite thing is the generic shade of Listerine to clean water buckets and spray on horses feet to help prevent thursh, also Zinc Oxide for so many things and boo boos. Infusium 23 to keep tails nice and soft. Mag oxide for people to add to much needed grain, I feed lots of alfafa. Vicks to keep a few horses from nibbling on some wood in stalls. etc. Epson salts to soak horses feet in. White vinegar to spray on horse feet to keep thursh down and do like to use it as a fly spray in the summer. And then like head and shoulders shampoo for that matter for my horses. Ok I am hopeless but to me these are things dont want to be without at the barn. Especially the Zinc Oxide for sun burn and boo boos.

ML

[Sannois]

Listerine also helps with the irritated skin that causes tail rubbing! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Sabina]

I'm still absolutely flabbergasted that someone managed to drag a mention of Spondylitis and Crohn's into an apple cider vinegar post!
The mechanism of calcium deposits onto the joints is frequently and tragically misunderstood in these diseases. It is not that there is too much calcium being ingested, it is that too LITTLE calcium (and magnesium, and vitamin D synthesis from sunlight) is being ingested, and the minieral blood levels, which are regulated by the kidneys, sink, and the calcium is robbed from the bones and redeposited in the wrong places. Bones and AS (http://www.asresearch.co.uk/osteoporosis.htm)

Okay, if you want a genuine use for humans and apple cider vinegar, besides the heartburn and sour stomach soothings already mentioned, let us not forget one of the best uses.... homemade SALAD DRESSINGS made with apple cider vinegar and extra virgin olive oil, which do not contain any wierd food additives and are therefore safe to eat. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif Face it, how many people could eat naked lettuce?

Many of us have poured a little vinegar onto our horse's feed expecting a mutiny and instead they ate it.

I had to pull out our copy of an old book "Folk Medicine, A Vermont Doctor's Guide to Good Health" by D.C. Jarvis, MD, copywrite 1958. This book is like the mother lode of every vinegar, honey, and kelp folkloric application ever heard of. It is Jarvis' contention that the reason the vinegar is so good for humans and animals is because it supplies needed potassium. The fact that people still eat pickles in spite of the invention of frozen vegetables makes me suspect he may have been on to something. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[deltawave]

But pickles are YUMMY! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Funny enough, I couldn't stand to LOOK at one when I was pregnant, but that was the ONLY time in my life when I couldn't eat 12 at a time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Head and Shoulders is THE BEST for scurfy, icky, dirty manes that first bath after a long winter. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

ML, do you find that spraying vinegar on a horse lightens its coat?

[RAyers]

Sabina,

I am sorry to "flabbergast" you. I am happy to discuss the cause and effects of arthritis, bone diseases, and biomineralization since that is my profession. What you are saying is an oversimplification. I have done some of the work on bisphosphonates and cytokine therapies mentioned in the website you provide.

If you deconstruct my post you will see that my mention of these diseases was to show that arthritis is multifactoral. There is no single form of arthritis nor is ther a single easy treatment as being touted about ACV.

Reed

[FortheFunofitFarm]

I have never externally applied acv to the coat, but FWIW, I can tell you that feeding it does "seem" to cause a fading effect in the warmer months.

[deltawave]

The vinegar causes fading? Or the coats fade and the horses happen to be getting vinegar? Mine fade, too--no vinegar unless Gwen snarfs a bit of my macaroni salad. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[FortheFunofitFarm]

LOL, who "really" knows if it's the vinegar or not. All I can say is that they fade much more since feeding it than ever before. I must admit though, I'm no scientist http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Adamantane]

For months to cure and to prevent rain rot with our 17 y.o. saintly Arab who gets RR lesions at the mere hint of humidity, like everyone else at our barn, I have been using ample sprayings of 1:1 apple cider vinegar (because that was how the formula was given to me and it cost only 3 cents more than white vinegar), and generic Listerine (TM) i.e., thymol, eucalyptol, all those foul-tasting things that make humans "hate the taste twice a day" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif), followed an hour or more later by diligent scraping of the softened scabs with a shedding scraper. [Anybody who thinks Arabs are deranged -- yes, you know who you are and I specifically mean you -- will be dumbfounded to know that he merely whiffles his mouth and altogether ignores the resulting discomfort, which is pretty much how he even has regarded my riding ambiguities since I first got up on him around lesson 10, back in 1998.]

The boy has a tendency to regularly rub his butt bare and his tale almost as threadbare, but so far this ACV concoction hasn't managed to deter that.

[deltawave]

Listerine is GREAT for those icky, greasy scabby things. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif Your horse is indeed a saint--my TB mare used to pin her ears at the SMELL of Listerine. She's the only horse I've ever had that got rain rot. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif You could fool her for a little while with the other "flavors" but basically she just hated me when the RR would break out. Poor girl, she was an ANGEL for anything else--endoscopy, AI, palpation, sutures...just didn't like her scabs to be plucked! Maybe if I'd mixed it (diluted it) with something it may not have "stung" so much.

[Appassionato]

Originally posted by Adamantane:
For months to cure and to prevent rain rot with our 17 y.o. saintly Arab who gets RR lesions at the mere hint of humidity, like everyone else at our barn, I have been using ample sprayings of 1:1 apple cider vinegar (because that was how the formula was given to me and it cost only 3 cents more than white vinegar), and generic Listerine (TM) i.e., thymol, eucalyptol, all those foul-tasting things that make humans "hate the taste twice a day" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif), followed an hour or more later by diligent scraping of the softened scabs with a shedding scraper. [Anybody who thinks Arabs are deranged -- yes, you know who you are and I specifically mean you -- will be dumbfounded to know that he merely whiffles his mouth and altogether ignores the resulting discomfort, which is pretty much how he even has regarded my riding ambiguities since I first got up on him around lesson 10, back in 1998.]

The boy has a tendency to regularly rub his butt bare and his tale almost as threadbare, but so far this ACV concoction hasn't managed to deter that.

I used diluted bleach for RR, rinse. Followed up with a vinegar rinse. Really seems to help! Oh yeah, and drying them in the sun. Yes, that will bleach their coat too (the sun), but their coat already looks bad, right? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif