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3dazey
Sep. 4, 2005, 10:10 AM
Please, if anyone hears anything concrete about Kim's (possible) injuries, will you please post. Would like assurance that Dan is perfectly okay as well.

On eventingetc.com they quote someone there as saying she was taken to the hospital with suspected shoulder injuries, but that her injuries are not "life threatening". Holy Crap! There's a LOT of real estate between "shoulder injury" and "not life threatening"!!!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

3dazey
Sep. 4, 2005, 10:10 AM
Please, if anyone hears anything concrete about Kim's (possible) injuries, will you please post. Would like assurance that Dan is perfectly okay as well.

On eventingetc.com they quote someone there as saying she was taken to the hospital with suspected shoulder injuries, but that her injuries are not "life threatening". Holy Crap! There's a LOT of real estate between "shoulder injury" and "not life threatening"!!!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Hey Mickey
Sep. 4, 2005, 12:14 PM
What happened? sorry i don't know anything about how she is now

Janet
Sep. 4, 2005, 12:15 PM
I heard (via Loudon HT) that she had a broken collar bone.

weezie
Sep. 4, 2005, 02:17 PM
from eventingetc.com

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The latest on Kim Severson: The following is from Sally Futh, whose husband owns Ashdale David's Way:

"It could have been worse; he (Winsome Adante) breasted the log at the far top of Capability's Cutting; Kim went over onto her shoulder, in slow motion. "Dan" went over and kerflopped - fortunately beside her. They airlifted her to hospital to check for a possible shoulder injury, but, (her injuries are) not life threatening.". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

fergie
Sep. 4, 2005, 03:16 PM
Hey, isn't that the nature of our sport? I don't even consider a broken bone a severe injury anymore. Not that I want anyone to get hurt, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy... We ARE doing ballet and gymnastics with 1200 lb. animals, and it IS considered an "extreme sport". Does anyone else think that Dan has earned the right to just goof off now? When is enough enough? These horses give their heart and soul to us and trust in us to make these decisions for them. When do the risks to the horse outweigh the rewards to the rider? When do they get to stop? Do they always have to break first? These are our partners, our soulmates.

3dazey
Sep. 4, 2005, 03:53 PM
Thanks Janet. That is helpful information and I know you to be a reliable source.

Equibrit
Sep. 4, 2005, 04:55 PM
from H&H;

"Later in the day, American eventing superstar Kim Severson set out at such a lick on Winsome Adante that she, and the horse, were tripped up coming out of Capability's Cutting (north), and flung out of the competition."

The Guardian;

Two of the other favourites fared less well, with Olympic champion Leslie Law retiring Shear H20 after a run-out at the narrow middle element of fence eight and US visitor Kim Severson, the individual silver medallist in Athens, taking a nasty-looking fall at the obstacle out of Capability's Cutting. Thankfully the horse fell clear of her, but she was taken to hospital to have her shoulder X-rayed.

The Telegraph;

American Kim Severson, who was second after the dressage, was highly fancied to add a Burghley title to her two Lexington wins and set off at an aggressive pace. However, a somersault over the second part of Capability's Cutting at fence 14 ended their challenge.

Janet
Sep. 4, 2005, 06:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3dazey:
Thanks Janet. That is helpful information and I know you to be a reliable source. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, Gillian heard it from "someone" at the Loudon HT, so I don't know HOW reliable it is.

ksbadger
Sep. 4, 2005, 07:20 PM
As previously posted on the "Burghley Results" thread:

Good news from the Telegraph's website:
"Severson, who has won the US Open three times on the 12-year old, including beating Dutton last April, was making her Burghley debut. She was taken to hospital but found only to have a sprained shoulder, and the horse was unhurt."

bweventer
Sep. 4, 2005, 07:49 PM
I also heard from a very reliable source that she has a broken collarbone.

goobs
Sep. 6, 2005, 07:39 AM
My thoughts and prayers go out to her for a super fast recovery. I am so glad she's okay and her horse is okay also. She is the NICEST person I have ever met - she is beautiful inside and out. I just saw her too at Millbrook where we had a pleasant conversation. Scary to think what could have happened. Get well soon Kim!!!!

displacedyank
Sep. 6, 2005, 07:46 AM
(Putting extra big flame suit on here) I'm very sorry to hear about Kim and Dan, but I was wondering when that horse was going to be retired. At the top of his game or the bottom?

(Retreating back to my flame-proof home.)

pv
Sep. 6, 2005, 07:59 AM
I believe that Dan is only 13. What is the problem with his continuing to compete as long as he is sound to do so?

yellowbritches
Sep. 6, 2005, 08:06 AM
I think Dan's gotta a lot left at the top of his game, unfortunately, everyone has a bad day (it just sucks more when you fly across an ocean to have it!). Remember, Pippa fell with BOTH her horses at the SAME fence last year at Badminton...8 months after winning the Grand Slam!

3dazey
Sep. 6, 2005, 08:28 AM
I can't help myself, I must ask why an uncharacteristic oops on the part of one of the greatest cross country horses of our time would lead one to ask "when will he be retired"?

If he was eight, would you say it? At 12/13, he is at the top of his game. Please don't be so foolish as to think his connections will compete him one second past when he should be out there.

You demean anyone who owns, loves and competes an aged horse. (Aged meaning over the age of ten).

displacedyank
Sep. 6, 2005, 09:09 AM
(Ewww....I'm glad I donned the flame suit). http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

I'm not saying because of one bad ride that Dan should retire. It just prompted me to think, what more are they trying to accomplish w/ him? I'd hate to have one bad ride turn into one really bad injury and/or death and take him out in anything other than the top of his game. He's by far one of the greatest horses out there and that has ever been. The truth of the matter is that when you are on top there is very little other place to go but down (or out, as in retirement). I'd hate to see him go down. I'd like to see him retire first. That's all.

And yes, I would say the same thing whether he was 6 or 26, but hey, but that's just my opinion. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Edited to say it wasn't a post about age or soundness.

persefne
Sep. 6, 2005, 09:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by displacedyank:
It just prompted me to think, what more are they trying to accomplish w/ him? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you ever dreamed of winning Badminton on a truly great horse? Have you ever dreamed of winning Burghley on a truly great horse? I'd be incredibly surprised if anyone could tell me that Kim Severson has not. I hope that answers your question. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Chaser
Sep. 6, 2005, 10:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by displacedyank:
I'm not saying because of one bad ride that Dan should retire. It just prompted me to think, what more are they trying to accomplish w/ him? I'd hate to have one bad ride turn into one really bad injury and/or death and take him out in anything other than the top of his game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I saw the fall on TV and the preceding part of the round. Kim and Dan were going beautifully. I certainly wouldn't call it a 'bad ride'.

At the fence where they fell, they jumped over a hanging log and down into the lane, then up the bank on the far side, where they should have jumped the log at the top. The horse just met it wrong and breasted it. It was the sort of unfortunate thing that can happen to most people.

I was at Burghley, hoping to see Kim go, but I was waiting two fences further on for her, so didn't see her 'live'.

displacedyank
Sep. 6, 2005, 10:26 AM
By "bad ride" I didn't mean anything other than simply a bad experience.

Chaser
Sep. 6, 2005, 10:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by displacedyank:
By "bad ride" I didn't mean anything other than simply a bad experience. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, gotcha!

persefne
Sep. 6, 2005, 10:35 AM
Just wanted to also add that I thought it was absolutely appropriate for Kim and Dan to be at Burghley this year...for THE EVENT where the four-star 3-day as we have known it (all phases in tact) will end forever in the UK. I don't blame her at all for wanting to have a go at that, and I appreciate everyone (her sponsor's, Linda, and their supporters) for allowing that to happen. Sometimes, fate just steps in and things don't work out as planned. Has jhodkin been on here anywhere to comment on meeting Kim and seeing Dan and how things might be going for them? I hope it is just a sprain, not a break, and that she's feeling better and they're getting back home here safely.

fergie
Sep. 6, 2005, 11:02 AM
I wasn't talking about riding ability, age, or soundness... I was talking about greed, human greed. I think that going to the Olympics (and what the horse goes through to qualify),going to Rolex, etc. etc. is enough RISK to the HORSE. Move on to another horse to do your Burghley debut. This one has paid his dues. He SHOULD get the chance to retire at the top of his game. He has earned the right to just be someone's teacher or pet right now because he IS a great horse. And, by the way, I know the physical toll that top level eventing puts on these horses - how many joints you have to inject... sound is an abstract idea - there are only degrees of sound with athletes, especially at the top... that is naive thinking to say any horse is "sound" - then it hasn't done anything yet!
I am ALWAYS the voice for the horse first, and I don't care how much I get "burned" doing that! I KNOW a lot of riders feel the same way. After all, Kim Severson is still just another person who uses the same porta-pottie that you do. Let's not make these people "gods", beyond reproach.

tle
Sep. 6, 2005, 12:05 PM
fergie...

My first question is how can you walk with such a large chip on your shoulder?

Next question would be exactly how many horses do you think are out there that CAN run at an event like Burghley? Exactly where to you suggest Ms. Severson grab that "extra" horse to run at Burghley so that her top going horse can simply retire (and for no apparent reason)?

And lastly, while I understand what you're trying to say, unless you have some inside knowledge on this horse (ie: owner, groom, rider), I don't get how you can suggest that it is time for him to retire. You have no personal knowledge of this particular situation so to make a pointed comment such as this, is a bit out of line.

If you were talking about in general that you think horses are pushed past their ability (in terms of length of time competing), then perhaps we could have a discussion. But if the horse is able and willing (and ONLY the owner/rider/groom can know that) WHY NOT go for it? Why did Lance Armstong go for his 2nd (much less his 7th) Tour win? Why do people climb Mt. Everest multiple times? Because it's THERE... Because no matter HOW many times you do it, it's STILL a challenge.

No one is saying endanger the horse and no one is going to (or should) "burn" you for that conviction. I think you'll find everyone here is on that side. But no one can make the retirement judgement from afar.

And BTW, no one is putting Kim or anyone of the other BNRs in a "god" status.

eventing101
Sep. 6, 2005, 12:44 PM
When I first heard what happened to Kim, 2 things ran through my head...

1.) Kim Severson is now proven not perfect and wasnt meant to "dominate" Burghley like everyone thought.

2.) Captain Mark Phillips eats his own words. In the latest Eventing USA magazine, Captain Mark Phillips specifically states that Kim is one of the only riders at the Advanced level who is riding her horse right.

After Cross Country day at Burghley he said " “The good riders made it look ridiculously easy.”


I hope our younger advanced level riders really step up to the plate for next years WEG. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

AngelEventer
Sep. 6, 2005, 12:50 PM
I too, have thought of Dan's retirement (or lack there of). I think more people would be asking this if he were running Rolex again, which is something that he has already proven, several times. I can see him running Badminton, Burghley, etc. I also think that it would be nice to see him teach a greener rider, take THEM to Rolex (hey, I'm available http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) That would be proving himself beyond proof. But then again, I have never met the horse, don't know his quirks, don't know if he would handle doing the lower stuff (mentally), or even being retired. My cousin has a *** horse, that is 16 years old, and it would completely blow is mind if he ever did anything lower than say, Intermediate (he's doing that with her right now... teaching her, kind of). If he were retired, that, too would absolutely blow is mind. So those for his retirement are saying that we need to think of his physical soundess, but what about is mental soundness? Maybe he NEEDS to do what hes doing, just to stay sane, to keep him from becoming depressed. Those are some of the variables that may not be getting thought of, but however are being thought of by his owners/rider.

I think retireing him at such a young age would be sad, but maybe it IS time for him to have a new job? A new career path? But again, who here can honestly speak for his mental status? or any other variables that may be playing a factor in the decision?

Just some thoughts...

3dazey
Sep. 6, 2005, 12:53 PM
Winsome Adante as a "pet" or "someone's teacher". No, I don't think so, not unless you like a tiger for a pet or have a deathwish. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Ultimate athlete and competitor of a quality, standard and yes, complexity, that many clearly cannot fathom. Thank God he is in the hands of those who understand that.

wanderlust
Sep. 6, 2005, 01:13 PM
My oh my, aren't we quite the lot of armchair quarterbacks. Calling for Winsome Adante's retirement because he and/or Kim dared to have a bad moment on course? Are y'all serious?

Good grief.

But yes, please lets retire him since he has "paid his dues" and/or clearly isn't capable of competing at that level any more at the ripe old age of 12. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

wanderlust
Sep. 6, 2005, 01:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
He has earned the right to just be someone's teacher or pet right now because he IS a great horse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> And just how is that "speaking for the horse"?
How is being the teacher to a lesser rider a better gig than having someone like Kim piloting him around?

I've seen more fantastic horses soured and ruined when they are "retired" to be a "teacher"... after years of being ridden by the best, they can't/won't tolerate anything less. Nor should they have to.

Meredith Clark
Sep. 6, 2005, 01:30 PM
3dazey- I don't think there's any reason to "laugh" at the idea of him being a "teacher" for another rider. Are you saying that no one else besides Kim could ever ride the horse? I'm sure he's a difficult horse to ride, i've heard the stories about him, but i believe AngelEventer is right in saying thats how people LEARN TO RIDE BETTER, i don't think she's suggestion he gives pony rides, or short stirrup divions at hunter shows, but maybe some Prelims, or stuff like that. I took my trainers *** horse in a Novice event this summer and even though it wasn't easy, or 1st place winning, i learned a lot and i'm a beter rider because of it.

IronwoodFarm
Sep. 6, 2005, 01:36 PM
In all due respect for Kim Severson, whatever decision is made or not made about Winsome Adante's competitive career, is not going to be her decision. The owner of the horse is Linda Wachtmeister of Plain Dealing Farm. Linda is a lovely horse woman and has worked hard to get her farm among the top eventing barns in this country. She's the one who pays Kim's salary and the horse's expenses.

I've know Linda for a number of years and I am sure whatever decision she makes will be sound. My guess is that if the horse is okay, we'll probably see them return. I think Linda feels jinxed about eventing in England. The last time they went, both horses had to have colic surgery!

I note that Linda has two talented daughters who event, Lucia and Benita Strini. Perhaps one of them will inherit Dan, but I wouldn't count on that happening too soon.

JAGold
Sep. 6, 2005, 01:47 PM
Good grief. Who are ANY of you to think that you know better than Dan's owner, rider, vet, and caretakers what is in his best interest? Do you have any reason to believe that the people involved in and responsible for Dan have mistreated him in any way?

I bet you don't. If I'm wrong, I'm sure you will tell me. And not having any information doesn't mean you aren't entitled to express your opinion, but it sure does mean that I'm not going to take you or your oppinions very seriously.

Top riders aren't gods or anything close. But they have information about their own horses and a hell of a lot of accumulated knowledge. It's one thing to question their training philosophies, riding techniques, opinions about the short versus long format three days, teaching styles, and even business practices. Discussions about these subjects are usually backed up with facts and involve questions about which reasonable people can disagree. But simply claiming to know better than those responsible for a particular horse, what is best for that horse is the height of arrogance. Insinuating that the people responsible for the horse are inadequate caretakers doesn't display any noble caring for the horse.

So let's review. Evidence in favor of Dan's retirement seems to be 1) his age, 2) his long and successful competition record, and 3) his fall at Burghley.

Age alone isn't grounds for retiring a horse. Some compete happily into their late teens or longer. Think about Custom Made. The issue is soundness, and I'm waiting for anyone to produce evidence that Dan is suffering. Also, 12 is pretty darn young -- really the peak of an event horse's career. They can't even compete prelim until they are 5. Even if they run a one star at 6, they aren't likely to do a four star until they are 9 or 10. Twelve isn't old, it's the top of the game.

To allege that Dan or other top level horses would be happier retired to being a teacher or pet shows tremendous lack of understanding of upper level horses' temperments and lifestyles. ANY horse would rather live in a field and eat grass all day than do any sort of work. However, unless you are against riding horses at all, that argument doesn't automatically extend to retiring upper level horse to become teachers. These are horses used to precise, professional rides, to very specific work schedules, and to the very best care in the business. Some of them might like teaching young riders or amateurs, but for a lot of them, that would be a confusing, frustrating job.

As for Dan's record, yes, it's incredible. But he doesn't care how many times he's won or where he ranks on the horse of the year standings. It doesn't damage his ego to lose every once in a while. And why retire a horse who is clearly at the top of his game? To "save" him -- physically or for legend's sake? If you want to protect their bodies, don't event them at all. Unless there is some evidence that the horse is fading physically, which there is NOT for Dan, then the 6th four star is no dangerous than the 2nd. And frankly, none of you are in charge of Dan's legacy. It is up to the horse's owner and rider to decide how they want to plan his career. Just because he's a public figure doesn't mean the public owns him.

And finally, the fall at Burghley. First of all, we don't really know what happened. Not one of the people calling for the horse's retirement said, "I was there, I saw it, he clearly isn't capable of jumping these fences." Instead, people read sketchy accounts on the internet and lept to conclusions. Horse and riders make mistakes. They can be isolated incidents, foreshadowings of developing problems, or culminations of many things gone wrong. Without any reason to believe otherwise, we should opperate under the assumption that Dan and Kim's accident, like the vast majority of such occurances, was an isolated incident. Many, many top horses have had one fall in their careers. Should all of their careers have ended the second their shoulders touched the ground?

I'm just tremendously frustrated by the arrogance and ignorance expressed in the sentiment, "Dan should be retired and the people who are responsible for him don't have his best interests at heart." People who say that or something similar may mean well, and they are entitled to say so regardless of their agenda, but I'm equally entitled to say that I think that is a bunch of bullshit. --Jess

RunForIt
Sep. 6, 2005, 02:15 PM
Just got home from school/work; I haven't bothered to read all the posts prior to JAGold's, tle's, 3Dazey, or Persefne's - they always write with sound reasoning...I'll be the first to take issue with Kim on the classic 3 Day format, BUT, you can take this to the bank...Kim LOVES her horses, God knows she's had her share of injuries - to herself, not just the horses - I can't imagine that anyone who events could have the notion that there are any perfect riders, perfect horses, nor perfect rides! I have a horse in my barn that Kim bred, he's out of her YR horse, and to this day, she loves him, always will. Thank the heavens above and around us that he's out tearing around the field (big winds!!!!) on his day off, a month ago, pre-Marquis, he didn't know where his hind legs were, walking was a sad spectacle. Kim is FIERCELY devoted to Dan, so is Linda, so are his grooms. They'll know the second the horse has had enough. Enough said from my end.

Robby Johnson
Sep. 6, 2005, 02:20 PM
This is almost comical. 3dazey hit the nail on the head. Winsome Adante as a packer for anyone - even Lucia or Benita - is unlikely. He is the star he is because he has many qualities that only a consummate professional like Kim can finesse and put to positive use.

Secondly, the pair made a mistake at a very difficult combination. Cut them some slack. Kim has certainly had accidents in the past (her fair share of them, to be exact) so she's not made of steel.

Robby

3dazey
Sep. 6, 2005, 02:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">3dazey- I don't think there's any reason to "laugh" at the idea of him being a "teacher" for another rider. Are you saying that no one else besides Kim could ever ride the horse? I'm sure he's a difficult horse to ride, i've heard the stories about him, but i believe AngelEventer is right in saying thats how people LEARN TO RIDE BETTER, i don't think she's suggestion he gives pony rides, or short stirrup divions at hunter shows, but maybe some Prelims, or stuff like that. I took my trainers *** horse in a Novice event this summer and even though it wasn't easy, or 1st place winning, i learned a lot and i'm a beter rider because of it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh Meredith, so serious, the whole thing is absurd...can't you see? The idea of bagging one of the world's top 4* horses because he & his rider (GASP) had a misstep and a fall? Cripes, half of us out there eventing should be retired under those "rules". Be real, did I condemn the use of semi-retired upper level horses as schoolmasters? Of course not. But we ain't talking about your garden-variety horse here. Maybe in 20 years he'd be willing to cart one of our sorry butts around a xc course, but don't hold your breath for the near term. He's a star and if the fates allow, he'll remain one for years to come. (And I have seen him "behind the scenes" often. I have seen him pitch Kim. I adore him for his talent, his desire and his ability. But I would be lucky to just stay on him, much less bring out the best in him. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif ) Oops. I "laughed" again. But it's "my" thread so I'll laugh if I want to... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

GotSpots
Sep. 6, 2005, 02:34 PM
When you push the edge of the envelope, when you're at the hardest part of a difficult sport involving two separate personalities, sometimes it doesn't always work. And that's part of the sport - the very best at this game (and Kim and Dan's record have showed they are absolutely worthy of being grouped among those very best) are doing things that don't always leave alot of room for mistakes or even for the vagaries of fate and luck. Sometimes mistakes, or accidents, happen in this sport. Sometimes it's rider error, sometimes it's horse error, sometimes it's course designer error, and sometimes things just happen. Doesn't mean anyone's at fault.

It's way too easy to armchair quarterback, but I would bet dollars to donuts that (a) Kim loves that horse and tries her hardest to do right by him; (b) Dan's whole team adores him; (c) Dan and Kim were as well prepared as they knew how to be; and (d) everyone on the team is wondering if there was anything they could have done to prevent the fall and, in the meantime, help patch them both up and get back in the game. Kim, Linda, and their team are a class act.

Abbey_Normal
Sep. 6, 2005, 02:44 PM
this is ssoo silly.
Last year Andrew Hoy won Burghley and was trying for the grand slam but he AND his horse fell at Rolex.And yet he came back to ride in burhgley this year and he is still competing iwth the horse he took a fall with moonfleet at rolex and he still competes with this horse. Everyone takes a fall. SHe had a problem at the fence Dan is a great horse and likely wont be affected by this. Kim wont be either.

Shes going to be fine and so is Dan. There should be NO problem here. I for one hope Dan continues to go on and Im sure they will be back up in NO TIME!

Ana

fergie
Sep. 6, 2005, 02:48 PM
If horses could only talk... it amazes me how riders can twist things around to be for the "good for the horse" and its really for human gain. I love my horses, ride them, compete them, but I am honest with myself. They are doing it as a gift to me and not the other way around. Therefore, I think we need to make sure we give back and watch how much we ask for, especially when they've given so much already. It's really an ethical question I'm posing here, and this is just one example of "when is enough enough", not a personal slam on Kim? This could apply to ANY of the horse sports. Ours is just a more dangerous one, let's be serious now. I bet any of those horses with IV bags hanging from their necks after X-C day at a 3-Day would agree. Shocking... how could I even say that??? Because it's true. Here's a question: How much do you do to a horse to get it through a three day? I've seen a lot...Frankly, I don't think Custom Made needed to do the Fair Hill*** AGAIN either if you really want to know... Conversely, look how olympic veteran Heyday brought along a young rider. He was no old man when he stopped competing at an international level. This example does good for our image as a sport. Fortunately, Dan was O.K. at Burghley, but I think we would be having a different conversation if it had gone the other way...I'm not saying I haven't taken risks with my horses, or that I wouldn't take risks again. It still comes back to the question "when is enough enough"? I don't think you even need to be an equestrian to see this. Where does the media and the ASPCA get all its bad press about eventing? It's always supposed to be about the horse first, at least that's what Jack LeGoff used to say. I think we need to consider questions like this if we still want to see eventing survive.

AngelEventer
Sep. 6, 2005, 03:06 PM
When I posted what I posted, I was just trying to help to see both sides, under no circumstances do I think Dan needs (or should) be retired. And I don't think that anyone is saying this just because of a fall... and if they are, that's absurd! I'd like to see THEM go out & do what Kim & Dan do, and do it flawlessly. I can't speak for Dan's temprament, but if it is ANYTHING like the UL eventers that I know, there is NO WAY he would allow ANYONE to take him away from what he is doing RIGHT NOW. That means NO becoming a horse to learn from, NO being retired, and by all means NO demoting his level of competition. By all means, He probably feels that everyone around him is COMPLETELY inferior, and should not even be allowed to LOOK at him, without his permission (unless of course they are oogling his good looks, or his most recent piece of hardware... lol!)

JAGold
Sep. 6, 2005, 03:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
If horses could only talk... it amazes me how riders can twist things around to be for the "good for the horse" and its really for human gain. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course. As I said, horses would rather stand around and eat. We ride them because we want to, not because they want to be ridden. But it isn't cruel to ask a horse to do a job he is capable of, well prepared for, and well taken care of in doing. This is true for the horse's first competition and his last. There is no magic time when we "owe" it to the horse to let him retire. We always owe horses the same thing: fair, compassionate treatment. You still haven't come up with a reason that Dan needs to retire now.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Ours is just a more dangerous one, let's be serious now. I bet any of those horses with IV bags hanging from their necks after X-C day at a 3-Day would agree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What in the world do you mean by this? IV fluids are given before or after XC to rehydrate horses and speed recovery. They are not treatment for injury or related to the danger or risks of the sport. The horses "with IV bags hanging from their necks" are likely thinking, "wow, I'm feeling great all of a sudden!"

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Here's a question: How much do you do to a horse to get it through a three day? I've seen a lot...Frankly, I don't think Custom Made needed to do the Fair Hill*** AGAIN either if you really want to know... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What have you seen? Where, and in what context? It's a lot different to be a spectator and see a horse "with an IV bag hanging from his neck" and to be behind the scenes and understand what is done and why. The treatments horses can receive at three day events are strictly limited by FEI rules, and a lot of what you see is to make horses as comfortable as possible, not because they are in distress or pain. And a lot of it is easily misinterpreted by those not directly involved.

Finally, are you insinuating that you saw something improper in Custom Made's treatment at his final Fair Hill, or that you know of some reason that he shouldn't have run the event? --Jess

deltawave
Sep. 6, 2005, 03:16 PM
And as with any "ethics" question, Fergie, you have to be prepared for a LARGE VARIETY of answers, all equally valid. The very fact that we RIDE our horses is repugnant to the PETA people. Where any one individual draws the line for their own horses is largely their business. We're all entitled to our opinion on "how much is too much" for a given horse, but we ought not to stuff our own personal opinions down the throats of others.

I daresay you could find a LOT of horses who are in much worse shape than any of Kim Severson's. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif And you wouldn't have to look very far to find a LOT of horses whose lives and welfare are risked FAR more surely than an event horse's life, on any given day. There is a pony at my vet's right now who is pretty close to dying from PHF. Unvaccinated. Seen horses fenced in barbed wire lately? I have. Seen little kids riding on the side of busy roads, with no helmets, on horses that are barely broke? I have. Where is the nod to "horse welfare" in those cases, which are FAR more prevalent than eventing accidents?

persefne
Sep. 6, 2005, 03:20 PM
Well, since it looks like we're allowed to make wild decisions based on random information, how about this? Let's retire Primmore's Pride, because he had "uncharacteristic stops on xc" at Gatcombe. Let's retire both of Leslie Law's Shear horses since they both fell at Badminton. Let's retire Tamarillo because he banged his stifle in Athens last year, but...oops, no one told him that he was on the brink of imminent retirement when he almost won Badminton for the second year in a row...but lost out to -- you guessed it -- our first retiree, Primmore's Pride. And, speaking of WFP and his total lack of knowledge and absolute disregard for his horses and their well-being, let's also retire Ballincoola, since he fibrulated on steeplechase at Badminton. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Aha! I guess we forgot to tell Ballincoola, since he just went out and won the hottly debated Burghley that has so effectively ellicited our beloved Dan's retirement. What about Moonfleet, who fell at Rolex? He's gotta go too! Who do we contact about all this, because it's obvious that we, not the people in charge, know what's best for *their* horses? If a horse can't reach it's peak by 10 years old and never take a wrong step out on a very tough **** xc course, then it has no business competing above training level at all. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And, while we're at it, can someone pleeeeezzz tell Ralph and Bruce that IT'S OVER....GIVE IT UP....THEY'RE PAST THEIR PRIME. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

AppJumpr08
Sep. 6, 2005, 03:43 PM
WOW.... I was wondering why this thread exploded in size today!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

I really don't have much to add because JAGold, deltawave, persefne, and a few others have said it all for me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
And I don't see what "IV bags hanging from their necks" has to do with anything.... unless you've seen how a horse perks up as soon as those bags get going (like I have) I don't think you can really say much! Besides, everyone knows they don't hang from their necks...we rig up flimsy things to hang them from.. like muck forks taped to the wall or a lead rope tied from the rafters..that way the bags can fall on the horse's head when the tape comes unglued http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Oh, and lets retire Little Tricky too... I mean, heck, he's 14 or 15 now...WAY over the hill!!!! Better yet, lets just retire all eventers as soon as they hit 10 - that way they have many sound years to go nuts and jump in and out of their pastures for want of something better to do http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Meredith Clark
Sep. 6, 2005, 03:46 PM
I never said i thought he should be retired...I just think its FUNNY that you laugh at someone else's idea of him being "teacher" when you don't know the horse. Have you ever ridden him? You say you've seen him "behind the scenes" but can you really judge his potential for someone else?

I'm not trying to "bag" one of the worlds top horses, I think that its his owners decision and the fact that we're agrueing about it is the real funny thing, but I think its stupid for us to sit here and argue whether a horse has the potential to be ridden at a lower level when none of us (correct me if i'm wrong and someone out there has worked with him...) have had the pleasure of riding or training him.

And i'll be the first to admit that you'd never see me trying to ride most 4 star horses, i'm no awesome rider, but I just think its rude to laugh off someones idea and thats why i made my initial comment, not to say you're wrong, b/c you can say whatever you wish (god bless america) but just to express another side.

Robby Johnson
Sep. 6, 2005, 04:42 PM
I would also like to point out, fergie, that I believe the individual young rider who had the priviledge of riding Heyday was, indeed, the daughter or granddaughter of the individual who bred him.

Persefne ... excellent post!

Robby

Gry2Yng
Sep. 6, 2005, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Frankly, I don't think Custom Made needed to do the Fair Hill*** AGAIN either if you really want to know... Conversely, look how olympic veteran Heyday brought along a young rider. He was no old man when he stopped competing at an international level. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Frankly, I think horses are individuals. What is good for one is not good for another. It is the same as the snaffle bit discussion. One horse does not go well or do well in the same situation as another. Just because it was good for Heydey doesn't mean it would have been good for Custom Made.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> This example does good for our image as a sport. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And we all know image is everything.

JER
Sep. 6, 2005, 05:21 PM
Last year at Badminton, Pippa Funnell fell TWICE at the SAME FENCE on TWO DIFFERENT HORSES. Talk about a message from God -- she couldn't stay on her horse over a simple upright gate. Sheesh, what's it gonna take to make this woman realize she should retire from the sport before she embarrasses all of us?

bornfreenowexpensive
Sep. 6, 2005, 05:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
I would also like to point out, fergie, that I believe the individual young rider who had the priviledge of riding Heyday was, indeed, the daughter or granddaughter of the individual who bred him.

Persefne ... excellent post!

Robby </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And she was (and is) a VERY nice rider--he was no easy horse to ride either.

ditto great post Persefne. I do think riders (and owners) struggle with the question of when is enough...and they are the best to make that choice--I will not second guess anyone decision (which ever it is). I've seen horses die x-c and I witnessed one rider die (and known others). While I did not (and DO not) question those riders/owner choices, it made me question whether I was willing both to take the risks myself and to risk an animal that I love--I still don't know the answers to how far I'm willing to go. It is a choice we all make knowing that NOTHING in life is risk free and where we fall on the spectrum of how much is too much is very much an individual question--for both the horse and rider.

I hope Kim recovers quick and glad Dan was fine! It would have been cool for her to win the Grand Slam but and I think her fall shows how hard this sport is and what a feat it is to even be in contention to win the Grand Slam--let alone actually winning it!

pharmgirl
Sep. 6, 2005, 06:02 PM
I would like to preface this post by saying I do not personally know Kim or Dan (or anyone directly involved in their training/care).

I personally think it's ridiculous that the thought even came up on retiring Dan after one fall. I know things possibly can change in a few months, but I had the priviledge of watching them at Rolex this year (and last year as well). This horse was amazing, and the look on his face riding xc was priceless. This horse looked like a machine out there, and looked like he LOVES his job. I think someone wrote something like this about Dan when writing about Rolex this year that "After returning from riding xc, he looked like he was ready to go back and do it again" I figure he can't be that bad if he got most conditioned horse at Rolex for the last two years.

fergie
Sep. 6, 2005, 07:23 PM
Oh my. Does anyone have any Fancy Feast? This catfight is making me hungry. I think it may be time for my catnap... I know all about Heydey and Dr. Jenny owning him. I know all about Little Tricky too and how tough he is. I also know about IV's and 3-Days since I've done them too. You totally missed my point about the IV's - I know how to hang them and can EVEN get the needle in the vein! (What does that say about the difficulty if horses need IV's to go on?) I actually know a lot more than you think, and no, I WON'T give away anyone's secrets, so stop asking. And duh, Bruce, Ralph Hill, and Lance Armstrong are humans who can make their own decisions. I didn't even mean that Dan should be retired because he had a fall - believe me, I know that happens first-hand. I meant for ALL upper level event horses or top horses in ANY equestrian sport, (like all the horses you mentioned), where do you draw the line? When have THEY taken enough risks for US? How many times do they need to fly overseas for us? Is the Olympics enough? When have they run enough races? Should they keep racing after winning the Derby even if they are still sound? How many stakes races do they have to win before they've made enough money? How many 4 stars do they have to do for us? I really don't know myself, but I do know how hard travelling and competing is on them, especially by plane. AND it is our responsibility to protect their rights, all of us, not just their "owners".
To the person who thinks I have a big chip on my shoulder - do you always follow the yellow brick road or just to 4-stars? Can I borrow your blinkers?
Meow.

deltawave
Sep. 7, 2005, 04:04 AM
Again, nobody can answer those questions except for the owners of the horses. Who are any of us to impose our opinions on other horse people? Unless you really were serious when you mentioned protecting the "rights" of animals. In which case, may I refer you to PETA? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Scary.

fergie
Sep. 7, 2005, 06:13 AM
Deltawave: That's EXACTLY my point. We have a responsibility to the animals to protect them. I don't care if the "owners" don't agree. We are really just their caretakers anyway, "owner" is such an elitist word. I'm all about the rights of the horses and all animals for that matter, and if that makes me seem like I'm in the PETA category to you, then so be it. Thinking like YOURS scares me.

JAGold
Sep. 7, 2005, 06:21 AM
Oooh boy, this has just left the realm of rational discussion. Someone pass the beer and popcorn! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif --Jess

tle
Sep. 7, 2005, 06:48 AM
fergie, you keep saying you "know", but what is it that you know? How do you know? How many 3-days have you ridden in? How many have you groomed for? How many horses have you had to make a difficult decision to retire? Have you had to deal with a horse who didn't WANT to retire, but rather THRIVED on work? Have you ever had to make the even more difficult decision to put one down simply because they couldn't be happy NOT working? I have. There's plenty of first-hand knowledge on this board, and specifically on this thread. So please don't profess to "know" anything when you've repeatedly avoided explaining how you supposidly "know".

I know a 22 year old Morgan in this area that is competing at Training level... and has been for quite some time. As the Year End Awards Chairman, I can tell you that not only does this horse compete consistently -- he's the FIRST horse in the database to have a score thrown out due to being over his "maximum"... IOW, he's PLACED at 7 different events this year. Who is to say he doesn't LOVE what he's doing? THE OWNER - hopefully in consultation with his vet, farrier (owner is also the rider). One argument against this sport that always chaffes me is how we "FORCE" our horses to do all these things. NO ONE can force a horse to jump these things!! They have to WANT to... they have to ENJOY it... or it just won't happen. ESPECIALLY at the top levels. A horse that doesn't enjoy doing eventing isn't going to make it to the top levels. Plain and simple. but again, the only ones who can truly make that decision is the owner.

BTW, that 22yo Morgan is currently 8th on the Stallion/Gelding of the Year standings... 3rd place on that list belongs to a 23yo competing at Novice! We also have a 26yo competing in this area!

Gry2Yng
Sep. 7, 2005, 06:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You totally missed my point about the IV's - I know how to hang them and can EVEN get the needle in the vein! (What does that say about the difficulty if horses need IV's to go on?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


My thought is that if you REALLY knew, you would know that most horses do not get IV fluids in order to "go on", they get them because they will feel better and perform better on Sunday. Hydrating a horse via IV is one of the kindest, least intrusive things we can do for them. It is no different than giving a runner a big bottle of gatoraide and saying "Drink this now." But we all know you can lead a horse to water...

And no, I don't think asking a horse to do something that requires fluids afterward is asking too much. My horses are athletes. They love to use their bodies and stretch their hearts and lungs and tendons. After they work I ice their legs, put on poltice and wraps, give them a linament bath and/or a message, bed their stalls deeply and give them hearty meal.

That's more than I do for myself and probably less than Kim does for Dan.

fargonefarm
Sep. 7, 2005, 07:15 AM
tle - I know exactly who you are talking about and I was thinking about him as I read all of this pish....He's a great horse with a great owner.
So let me throw in my 2 cents from personal experience. My mare is 17 years old. Three years ago, when she had just completed a very successful season at Training Level, she was almost put down because she lacerated her flexor tendon in a pasture accident. I was told I would never ride her again. After two years of agonizing rehab, she returned to Eventing at Novice level. It was always my goal to retire her at Training - where she had been before the accident. In October I will finally be able to do just that.
HOWEVER, I would have done none of this if my mare, Ali, didn't want to. How do I know what my mare wants. Ummm, lets see, how about 10 years of this horse being my entire life and best friend. I would have never jumped her again except that one day, she dragged me to one. Everytime she sees a fence, she lights up and tears over it (wish she'd do the same when she saw the Dressage ring http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)
So what's my point? No one knows squat or should claim to about someone elses horses or their capabilities. Someone could say that I pushed Ali into a comeback, but she actually dragged me. Until you are all standing in Kim's tallboots, stop speculating and worry about your own horses and careers. I'm pretty sure Kim and Dan have a good handle on thiers.
No one can make a horse do anything they don't want to. We need to realize that these horses are pretty good judges of their own abilities as well.

AppJumpr08
Sep. 7, 2005, 07:32 AM
Ditto to tle and fargonefarm http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I would like to SEE someone FORCE a horse to run around a **** course... would the rider run in front, or push from behind?! (or would the groom help to push?) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
Oh, and fergie, just for future reference: In case you haven't figured it out yet, I was being sarcastic about the hanging of IV bags...and Bruce retiring...and Little Tricky... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

clivers
Sep. 7, 2005, 07:38 AM
" Hydrating a horse via IV is one of the kindest, least intrusive things we can do for them. It is no different than giving a runner a big bottle of gatoraide and saying "Drink this now."
QUOTE]

I think Gry2Yng's comments went too far.

IV hydration IS invasive, risks complications including infections that can be fatal, and most certainly is NOT the same thing as giving a runner a gatorade.

I'm not talking out of my ass. I'm an MD and have treated people dying of IV related infections.

That said, the fact is that horses completing **** xc courses rarely "require" IV fluids.

Giving fluids is simply an extra thing we try as part of a host of rituals and routines we believe/hope/pray will make a difference to the way our horses feel and subsequently give us a competitive edge on Sunday.

displacedyank
Sep. 7, 2005, 07:43 AM
Wow, I so didn't meant to create this, I was hoping for rational discussion....this is more like something that would happen on the dressage forum. Oops..did I just say that?!? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Maybe a spinoff thread is needed? "When do you decide to "retire"? And leave names and accusations off of it? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

deltawave
Sep. 7, 2005, 08:35 AM
Oy, a horse dying from an IV-related infection is probably about as likely as the rider getting run over by a golf cart at a CCI. On second thought, the rider getting run over by a golf cart is FAR more likely. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Plus, IV fluids are probably BETTER than Gatorade...less crap that you DON'T need. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (please note the winkies)

Yes, an IV could be considered "invasive", but not hydrating a horse that won't drink seems far more risky to me. I wish someone would have offered one to ME after XC at Encore this year! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Fergie, what part of my thinking scares you? I never said anything except that it should be the individual horseman/horsewoman's (yes, even the OWNER'S) decision to make calls on the welfare of their horses. How is that "scary"? Would it be less scary to appoint someone who knows nothing about that horse as their chief decision-maker, caretaker and steward? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I for one wouldn't volunteer for that job except with my own horses, whose history I know, whose training I supervise, and whose nutrition, health, competition, temperament, etc. I know intimately and far better than anyone else. Am I the best at it? Hardly. Do I do the best I can? Yes. Do I consider my horses well looked after? Yes. Do I expose them to risks? Yes. I feed them grain. I put them on trailers. I vaccinate them. I worm them. I give them medications when needed. I shoe them. I ride them. I give them IV injections. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I jump them. I gallop them. I make them sleep in stalls sometimes. In a barn that could burn down. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif VERY risky behavior, yes? What I won't do is set them free to roam wild, put them down because I have no use for them, or watch them sit and eat grass when they are animals that enjoy working.

The "price" my horses pay for the best care I can give them is 6-8 hours of work per week, doing something they like. When they don't like it (and I have been there) I find them a job they DO like. I have never sold a horse, but have found nice new homes for several when they weren't able or willing to do what I wanted them to do.

If you really believe that no horse should be exposed to the "excessive risks" of eventing, then I'm afraid there can be no agreement between us. But I'd still like to know how my thought process is "scary". What should we do with all of our horses, let them roam the prairies? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

saratoga
Sep. 7, 2005, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tle:
Have you ever had to make the even more difficult decision to put one down simply because they couldn't be happy NOT working? I have.

! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


??????????????

persefne
Sep. 7, 2005, 09:12 AM
Saratoga, sadly, it's not as crazy or as uncommon as it sounds. I almost had to euthanize my old TB last year when he tragically lost most of his eyesight. He, fortunately, adjusted without drugs much better than any other horse would have (my vet was astounded). He's completely sound and healthy, otherwise.

In Pippa's book, she talks a bit in there about she and the owner of one of her early upper-level eventers making the decision to euthanize the horse after it suffered a traumatic leg injury that left it unridable and barely pasture sound, but it just didn't have the personality or the mind to be a yard ornament. If a horse can't even live happily for the rest of it's days in a pasture, why would you choose to keep it locked up in a stall for the rest of its life just to keep it safe and alive? Mental and psychological happiness with our beloved horses is just as important, if not moreso, than their physical well-being. That's why so many of us find it ludicrous to suggest retiring a horse that wants to and needs to continue to compete (and still can) in order to enjoy a happy life. Maybe we shouldn't expect tle to elaborate on her decision she alluded to in that earlier post. I'm sure it was a painful decision that is not easily discussed casually, here.

fergie
Sep. 7, 2005, 09:20 AM
Deltawave: who said anything about how your horses are treated? Who said anything about setting horses free? What scares me is the ranting and raving you just did - you've got a bad case of "road rage" - listen to yourself. I'd hate to be your next patient! I hope you prescribe some blood pressure medication for yourself and maybe a tranquilizer too! Talking to you is like talking to a box of rocks.
To all who despise me now: Why do you despise me? Is it because I have a different opinion from yours, and I am brave enough to talk about it? Is it because a little part of you feels guilty about what you do with your horse sometimes? I have felt that way before, I have made mistakes, and I have been selfish. I'm no saint! I think that is just human nature. But that DOESN'T mean we should never address things even if you decide NOT to change anything. I was JUST asking a question for some thought. I wasn't looking for everyone's talons. Obviously, this topic creates some controversy - so it's a discussion worth having. I have my opinions based on my experiences, you have yours. I wasn't referring to any horse in particular, certainly not yours, and definitely not a 22 year old training level horse. I KNOW you can't get any horse around who doesn't want to, that's the thing, they'll keep wanting to do for us until it kills them... (you made me go there...).
Tle: You better stick to watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Maybe if you apply to Survivor a 6th time they'll pick you!
APPJUMPER08: I "got" your sarcasm, but obviously you didn't get mine...

Hope this had made your day a little more interesting and amused you too. (It's just entertainment value I'm going for here, not true cruelty. I've gotten a pretty thick skin over the years so I'm not feeling the burn. Thanks to all who had similar opinions as mine OR just a different point of view altogether, and were brave enough to express them. I think we've beaten this topic into the ground, don't you?
Yoda - over and out.
Meow.

saratoga
Sep. 7, 2005, 09:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by persefne:
Maybe we shouldn't expect tle to elaborate on her decision she alluded to in that earlier post. I'm sure it was a painful decision that is not easily discussed casually, here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's fine, I wasn't looking for a fight or anything. I can see putting a horse down if it was in chronic pain and lameness, but I have a hard time imagining a horse that was so distraught about not being ridden that it had to be euthanized. I believe most horses would rather sit around and eat, though of course they will willingly do what we ask as long as we take care of them and make sure they are mentally and physically capable of doing what we ask.

Anyhow, I took a clinic from Kim Severson several years ago and had a great time. She has my respect as a great rider and horse person. I just don't understand why people think her horse should be retired now either. I'm sure they won't hesitate to retire him from that level of competition when the time comes and find a good situation for him, whether its retirement or going Prelim with a young rider or whatever.

tle
Sep. 7, 2005, 09:24 AM
fergie... nice personal attacks.

Who said we despise you? You have repeatedly elluded to so called knowledge, basing your highly touted opinions on such knowledge, yet you refuse to present us with facts when asked for. You have some good points but when spewed in personal attacks, "road rage" (which I think you have more than DW for sure) and hidden in so called knowledge for which you refuse to answer questions, then what are we to think?

Personally, I think you're a Troll.

persefne
Sep. 7, 2005, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by saratoga:
I have a hard time imagining a horse that was so distraught about not being ridden that it had to be euthanized. I believe most horses would rather sit around and eat...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I went through the summer I did last year with my TB, my vet kept warning me that there are lots of healthy horses out there (mostly TBs) who absolutely will not mentally tolerate the loss of work or consistency that a competitive schedule gives them. My guy ended up being even-tempered enough that he's happy to wander aimlessly and stand for hours on end out in the field, so I got lucky. For a while there, though, he paced the fence, ran around (he's blind now, mind you) "screaming" for the other horse's when they weren't in hearing distance, and he lost a lot of weight and muscle due to his retirement from riding and his normal routine, in addition to his changed condition and his constant worrying and pacing. Should I have put him down? In retrospect, he turned out content and I'm glad I didn't jump the gun. If he had continued the behavior I just mentioned indefinitely though, then I would have been cruel to let him continue on. I really hope I don't (and I hope you don't, either!) ever have to make that kind of decision about a horse that just simply can't be ridden or competed anymore. Most of them *DO* just like to stand around in the pasture and eat grass, but there are those horses that psychologically must have constant work and exercise. Kind of like people. I'd rather sit in a hammock and watch my horses drift around the field all day, while other people HATE being at home and crave the rat race. But, don't anybody put me to sleep yet!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

fergie
Sep. 7, 2005, 10:53 AM
And you, Tle, are obviously a dork....

clivers
Sep. 7, 2005, 11:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by deltawave:
Oy, a horse dying from an IV-related infection is probably about as likely as the rider getting run over by a golf cart at a CCI. On second thought, the rider getting run over by a golf cart is FAR more likely. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif : </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree 100% that golf carts are an omnipresent danger in competition. I actually very nearly had to jump a golf cart on course in 1995 when I landed from a big prelim ski jump and it was less than 2 strides ahead of me! I even agree that the risks from golf carts likely far exceed the risks from well meaning horse people playing with IV's. But wich ones can we directly impact, and which ones are out of our control.

There is a point here that I think is worth discussing. We put horses at risk. a lot. Sometimes on course. Sometimes with the things we do when the riding is over. Some horses DO die of complications from our interventions...including giving IV's(thromobembolism, infection etc.) and these are risks WE decide to take with our horses.

Responsible horse owners need to be aware that their actions have inherit risks, and balance these risks with the known/expeced benefits as well as the risks of not performing whatever intervention we're considering.

Obviously, re-hydrating via IV with a vet's supervision a dehydrated horse who won't drink is probably a good decision. On the otherhand, the thought of some well-meaning owner sticking a needle in her horse's jugular in the hopes of fractionally improving an athletic performance is scary. Rule of thumb...if your horse is drinking you probably don't need an IV. Horse people and especially eventers love the idea that something is scientific and effective, but playing doctor doesn't always result in healthier horses. Want to read more? check out:

1. Bayly WM, Vale BH. Intravenous catheterization and associated
problems in the horse. Compend Cont Ed Pract Vet
1982;S227–231.

2. Deem DA. Complications associated with the use of intravenous
catheters in large animals. Calif Vet 1981;6:19–24.

3. O’Grady, N. Guidelines for prevention of catheter-related infections. Cricital Care Medicine 2002.

“Intravenous catheters are implicated in 90% of blood stream infections, and approximately 5,000 deaths per year are directly attributable to catheter-related blood stream infections."

4. Sage, A.M., and Worth, L Fever:Endocarditis and Pericarditis. In: Marr, CM (ed) Cardiology of the Horse. W. B. Saunders, Philadelphia, pp. 256-267, 1999.

THIS is why comments to the effect that IV's are like drinking gatorade irk me. They're plainly NOT, and many people choose to use them without a full understanding of the risk/benefit ratio. You should at least KNOW that they're invasive and carry a very small risk of very serious complications before you use them. Horse/rider relationships are somewhat special because of the blurring of partner/owner/friend characteristics, but the fact is that when we consent to interventions for our horses we OWE them informed consent. Ignorance is only blissful in the short term.

People do tons of well-meaning but ill advised things to their horses. We Kill-the-with-kindness by overfeeding them, supplementing incorrectly, bandaging poorly or inappropriately etc. Vets are constantly complaining about owners wrecking horses with their good intentions.

What's my point? I'm finding the discussion about the risks we expose upper level horses to interesting, but I want to challenge riders/owners to broaden their thinking to also examine the daily hazards we expose horses to...and that risk/benefit balance we should but don't always remember to keep in mind.

RAyers
Sep. 7, 2005, 11:04 AM
Fergie, nobody despises you but rather we find your unsubstantiated comments to very offensive. Any time a person, right or wrong, does a PDOOMA (Pulled Directly Out Of My Ass) to attack others is absolutely uncalled for. As tle and others stated you continue to ask questions and then judge others without backing up your arguements. Then when deltawave discusses her personal experience and perception you attack her saying she has "road rage" (as opposed to your 'roid rage?).

Fergie, you start an arguement but refuse to take responsibility to back up your claims with either facts or personal experience, other than to say "I just know." Well, the last bastion of an ignorant participant is "I just know."

In my experience, I have had several bad crashes with my most recent guy. We have fought and overcome 2 years of struggle and guess what?! My horse has suddenly come into his own at the intermediate level at the age of 13! Now, perish the thought, but I plan to go advanced next year at some point because he absolutely loves this sport. I watch my videos and to see what is in his eye when we are going XC rather than dressage is beyond words. People have come up to me and said it looks like we are having FUN out there (Reference June COTH, I forget what issues but is with my interview). I watch the video and it looks like we are having FUN.

You can choose to either be a constructive participant in this forum or you can choose to be a target since you have the right to say whatever you want and I have the right to say it is BS. But in any case, you have to take responsibility for what you are saying.

Reed

KellyS
Sep. 7, 2005, 11:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
And you, Tle, are obviously a dork.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Takes one to know one... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Fergie, I don't see how calling people names is helping your viewpoint at all...Deltawave, TLE, JA Gold, etc are all posters who have extensive experience with the sport - I think just about everyone on this board highly respects their opinions.

Unfortuntately the more I read your posts, the more I just shake my head and wonder just what your experiences are. Anyone who's been involved with eventing knows how much the horses love it! Eventers are a wonderful group of people who really care about their horses. Of course you're going to have your bad apples, but how can you even possibly link one fall to a call for retirement? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Janet
Sep. 7, 2005, 11:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anyone who's been involved with eventing knows how much the horses love it! Eventers are a wonderful group of people who really care about their horses. Of course you're going to have your bad apples, but how can you even possibly link one fall to a call for retirement? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
SOME horses love it, some don't. Some give generously even when they are no longer cabable. It is OUR job, not theirs, to decide when it is "enough".

She specifically said that she was NOT "linking one fall to a call for retirement."

I don't think Dan is at that point, and from everything I have heard about him, he wouldn't be a good one to "step back" to a less accompleished rider. Just as Sportscar probably wouldn't be a good candidate for a lesser rider.

But she is right that the owner/rider etc. (but NOT the denizens of the COTH BB) need to consider WHEN is the right time to start to backoff, and not necessarily wait until the horse starts to "fail" on a regular basis.

From what I have seen, Kim (and her support team) do that. I know of two of her former upper level horses who HAVE backed off to a lower level. One is doing Novice/Training, and another is doing straight dressage.

Janet
Sep. 7, 2005, 11:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Eventers are a wonderful group of people who really care about their horses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is a gross generalization. Sone do, some don't.

KellyS
Sep. 7, 2005, 11:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Eventers are a wonderful group of people who really care about their horses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is a gross generalization. Sone do, some don't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I guess I've been very lucky to be surrounded by eventers who do. And I do truly believe that the truly good eventers sincerely care about their horses and their horses truly love their jobs.

Janet
Sep. 7, 2005, 12:03 PM
Sure. The "truly good" ones do. But the range of "level of caring" is pretty broad.

KellyS
Sep. 7, 2005, 12:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Janet:
But she is right that the owner/rider etc. (but NOT the denizens of the COTH BB) need to consider WHEN is the right time to start to backoff, and not necessarily wait until the horse starts to "fail" on a regular basis. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure where you're coming from with this statement. I think this whole argument has centered around Fergie posting that Dan's owner should consider retiring him because of the fall. Everyone else has defended the position that the Owner/Rider make this decision, not someone on an internet BB.

Edited to add that I'm not quite sure why you felt the need to jump all over my post - if you're worried about gross generalizations, I think there are better examples elsewhere on this thread.

KellyS
Sep. 7, 2005, 12:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Janet:
Sure. The "truly good" ones do. But the range of "level of caring" is pretty broad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, since I'm already "generalizing" I will say that of all the horse sports I've been involved with (western performance, hunters, dressage, etc), I find that eventers have the best overall knowledge of horse care and conditioning.

As I said in my earlier post, their are "bad apples" in every discipline. However, this topic wasn't started to discuss those situations, it was started to discuss a particular horse who WE ALL KNOW receives the best care out there.

If Fergie had perhaps started a thread saying "When should event horses be retired" I'm sure that would have been met with much less ire. However, she choose to post her views on a thread about a specific horse and rider in relation to one fall at one event. That's what people are having a problem with!

Janet
Sep. 7, 2005, 12:26 PM
Sorry I wasn't clear.

I am AGREEING with the statement that the owner/rider/support team (not the COTH BB)should make the decision.

But I am disagreeing with the implication that EVERY eventer ALWAYS makes the right decision. Some eventers keep competing a horse because it is willing, even though the rider SHOULD know the horses heart is writing checks his body can't safely pay.

fergie
Sep. 7, 2005, 12:37 PM
Janet,
Thank you, thank you, thank you. At least you understand that my discussion question was NOT centered around Dan's fall, but the more general question of how many risks should they take for us, how many times should they fly overseas, how many drops should they jump, do they need to go to one Olympic Games or two? It's am ethical, humane question ONLY. I know I DEFINATELY don't have enough info. to make that decision for Dan, duh.

KellyS
Sep. 7, 2005, 12:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Janet,
I know I DEFINATELY don't have enough info. to make that decision for Dan, duh. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, then I would highly suggest starting a separate thread instead of discussing this on a thread entitled "Kim Severson."

Janet
Sep. 7, 2005, 12:53 PM
KellyS
I am going to send you a PT (not necesarily this minute) to explain in more deail what I mean. I doen't want to make this thread even more contentious.

fergie
Sep. 7, 2005, 12:58 PM
Janet,
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, and oh yeah, thank you. I'm glad you see that this is NOT about Dan's fall (that's only what got me thinking about the topic) and more a general, ethical question. I'm glad you realize that I KNOW I don't have enough information to make a DECISION about WHEN Dan should retire. (I think OPINIONS are still allowed though...) It's an ethical, humane question about how many jumps are enough, how high and wide is too much, how many drops are enough, how many plane flights are enough, how many stakes races are enough, how many Olympic games are enough? To the people who want my inside info. - NO WAY - I still have some friends out there, and actually I am loyal. Besides, you don't have to have that info. for this discussion - just open your eyes....It's not a personal slam against ANYONE, and I hope anyone who wants to gets to enjoy the adrenaline rush from the upper levels. I used to want it bad too, the price is just too high for me now - but that's just ME!! I know that some horses are suited for it and enjoy the challenge too, my god, I'm not an idiot with no experience! I also know what it takes to be an athlete - for the horse and the human. Yes, I have enough experiences to feel that I have a good handle on what it takes (and no, you're not getting all of that info. unless you're one of my best friends). Why do you think I posted the question to begin with.
-Yoda

tle
Sep. 7, 2005, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KellyS:
If Fergie had perhaps started a thread saying "When should event horses be retired" I'm sure that would have been met with much less ire. However, she choose to post her views on a thread about a specific horse and rider in relation to one fall at one event. That's what people are having a problem with! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually at this point I'm having more of a problem being called a Dork, being told that I despise someone when I don't, being told I feel guilty for how i have treated the horse i ride, and being told that I should stick to watching Buffy... not to mention seeing a very good friend of mine being told that talking to her is like talking to a box of rocks. THAT is what I object to. I don't care what fergie's opinion is or how she came to that opinion... there are other ways to express it than how she has done.

I also can't fathom exactly what is so private and precious about one's riding experience that a person wouldn't be willing to share. Especially when exceptionally strong opinions (not to mention personal attacks) are being based on said experience. That said... hmmm... yeah I can... but only since information such as this is easy to verify.

But that's just me... and anyone is allowed to keep anything "private". But as someone else said, just expect the skepticism that is to follow being so pushy yet private.

asterix
Sep. 7, 2005, 01:23 PM
Fergie, this IS an interesting topic, and you raise questions worth discussing, but if you could stick to, as you put it, a "general, ethical question" level of discourse it would be much easier to have a conversation...as it is you start flinging personal attacks around, and that ends up being all anyone can see. Hard to respect that approach.

You are pretty new to the board -- those of us who have been around for a while know some of the experiences people like deltawave and tle have had, because we've shared discussions here about them (among other things). We don't have that shared context with you, and you were making some pretty definitive statements about specific horses (like Custom Made at Fair Hill). Again, having departed from the "general, ethical" approach, you do open yourself up to some prodding about what this all is based on.

You certainly are under no obligation to provide a riding resume, or share any personal details you feel are private, but you have to expect some skepticism given your approach.

I'll just end this with a slightly tangential note -- we are talking about careful consideration of the level of work and fitness a horse has to compete...I was out in our 70 acre field yesterday, about to do a carefully calibrated conditioning hack on my horse, part of a long gentle rampup in his fitness, when all of a sudden the rest of the 23-horse herd comes FLYING from the back of the pasture at an absolute dead run...when they reached us they swirled around and around, bucking and playing...this herd includes a whole bunch of pleasure horses, some pasture ornaments, and very few fit sporthorses...they must have spent 5 solid minutes (so, um, as long as a T level xc course) careening around.

Gotta wonder whether that was riskier to them then my last XC school with my boy. No way to know, really. We do the best we can.

JAGold
Sep. 7, 2005, 01:31 PM
You know what, fergie? You've been posting on this BB for less than 10 days. We have no reason to think you are credible. You claim to have first hand experience but don't want to disclose what. That's your right, but we aren't going to take you too seriously when you show up and immediately begin stirring the pot. And not just on this thread -- you made an obnoxious assumption about whether or not someone was getting quality help with her horse on another thread. Notice that you were the only one to make that assumption? Well, that's because many of us knew the situation better than you.

This BB is a community with its own social order. Everyone is welcome to join, but just like in a real-life community, it takes a while to establish credibility. Coming in and acting like a know-it-all and an offensive one to boot isn't the way to go. Now, this is cyberspace and there's no point in taking someone else's electrons oppinions of your electrons seriously. But this is also recreation, meaning that you should come to have fun or to learn. Not just to piss people off. So if you have different ideas and you want to discuss them, go for it. But if you are going to be judgemental and superior and mysterious all at once, well, have at it. I can always block your posts from my view of the forum. --Jess

Gry2Yng
Sep. 7, 2005, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Obviously, re-hydrating via IV with a vet's supervision a dehydrated horse who won't drink is probably a good decision. On the otherhand, the thought of some well-meaning owner sticking a needle in her horse's jugular in the hopes of fractionally improving an athletic performance is scary. Rule of thumb...if your horse is drinking you probably don't need an IV. Horse people and especially eventers love the idea that something is scientific and effective, but playing doctor doesn't always result in healthier horses. Want to read more? check out: </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


For goodness sake, I am not talking about riders running around willy nilly sticking IV's in their horses' jugular. OF COURSE I am talking about giving IV fluids under a vet's supervision. Of course there are risks when inserting a needle into an animal. We risk Anaphalactic shock when we give penecillin to a horse with an infection. We risk abscess when we do any IM injection. The choices are made based on the benefits out weighing the risks. Dehydration is a huge issue for horses.

I am sorry that I have to say we are not talking about some "well meaning owner running a bag of fluids to marginally improve performance". Is it really "scary" to think of a vet at a three day prescribing IV fluids for a horse so that it eats, drinks, rests and recovers in order to perform optimally on Sunday?

Do you think a horse that is put to bed marginally dehydrated on Saturday night will perform as well as one that has been prescribed a bag of IV fluids? Do you think the average competitor is just running around with a couple of bags of fluids in their tack box?

I am at a loss.

JAGold
Sep. 7, 2005, 01:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Janet,
I'm glad you realize that I KNOW I don't have enough information to make a DECISION about WHEN Dan should retire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh yeah? Then why did you say this, on page 2?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This one has paid his dues. He SHOULD get the chance to retire at the top of his game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Also, Yoda was both wise and incoherent. You've got the incoherent part down, alright, but until you can come up with some better reasoning maybe you should wait on the title. --Jess

tle
Sep. 7, 2005, 01:40 PM
Jess, that comment is ALMOST as funny as persefne's post! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

eventer girl
Sep. 7, 2005, 01:41 PM
Not defending one way or another --but the commone theme around here of how long someone has been a member or how long they have been posting continues to come up -- what on earth does that have to do with their opinion.

THIS IS NOT HIGH SCHOOL - this is not a clique you have to join or lets see let me log on and see how many posts i can make so that i can be part or the COTH -- i can't believe i'm reading this on the Eventing board - next were gonna see red lipstick out on cross country WTF??

like i said not going one way or another but i certainly was reading long before i was posting -- and i am well aware of who the main contributors are to this forum, and it would seem unless we are part of your little group or have given our resumes i guess we have no opinions.

tle
Sep. 7, 2005, 01:49 PM
You're not reading the intent correctly. I don't have any magic and I certainly NEVER professed to be some kind of expert. But I have been around her a while. I feel like I know a lot of the people who post regularly ... I've shared with them, they've shared with me, together we've worked through problems, celebrated victories and cried on each other virtual shoulders. They are friends and I know through their postings of the experiences they've had and how they've turned out. I would imagine people feel the same about me (or DW or any number of long time posters). It doesn't have anything to do with our time on the BB per se, but the fact that we HAVE been around her and have shared and people do understand where we are coming from makes a difference when forming an opinion. It isn't that people who are new can't have opinions... quite the contrary. But if you go back and reread fergie's posts (here and other places), you'll notice quite a chip on her shoulder... quite a confrontational attitude. I believe one of her comments on another thread was something to the effect of "I'm glad someone else here is using common sense." Uh, hello? Pretty arrogant and presumptuous attitude if you ask me. It has nothing to do with how long she's been posting on the board, really. If a long time poster started coming off with that kind of attitude, he/she would find their reception quite the same... although probably peppered with "are you ok?" type of statements. Initial posts are like first impressions, whether we like it or not. Fergie could have ridden at Burghley and won the WEG for all we know...she could be a phenominal trainer and have posted her a thousand times... but I'd still take offense at being called a dork.

Make sense?

JAGold
Sep. 7, 2005, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eventer girl:
Not defending one way or another --but the commone theme around here of how long someone has been a member or how long they have been posting continues to come up -- what on earth does that have to do with their opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just like in real life, people build credibility either over time -- with a history of reasonable posts -- or quickly, by describing their experiences. Either way, credibility depends on the quality of the posted messages. Newcomers who express their opinions thoughtfully, and appear open to rational discussion, are generally considered credible. Those who appear and take extreme or antagonistic positions are less credible.

That's not juvenile; that's a reaonable way of putting what you read on the screen into context. Everyone has opinions. Everyone is entitled to those opinions. But unless there's reason to trust your oppinion either offered in the post (though clear reasoning and facts) or I have reason to trust it based on past experience, I'm going to discount it somewhat. I'm sorry you don't agree.

And what in the world does any of this have to do with red lipstick? --Jess

AppJumpr08
Sep. 7, 2005, 01:52 PM
eventer girl.. I think what everyone means (and at least the way I feel) is that when someone comes on the boards and immediately starts making posts like fergie has, but won't share with everyone what their actual real life experience is, it's hard to take them seriously when they are making personal attacks on other members of the boards who have been posting here for ages...and because they have been on the boards for a long time we all know what sort of experience they actually have with the sport http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I, for one, really don't understand why a brief rundown of fergie's experience in the eventing world is so impossible to do.. it is possible to give a brief bio without betraying friends...unless I totally misunderstand the situation, it seems a bit odd to me.

It's not to say that a new member to the board has to work their way into a clique, or they have to post on the board X number of times because they are "worthy", but it's hard to take such bold and attacking statements from someone who is basically an unknown...its hard to tell if they are speaking from experience, or just trying to "troll" for trouble! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

asterix
Sep. 7, 2005, 01:56 PM
eventer girl, I think that's being a bit unfair. It is not about being a part of someone's clique or little group, but it is a plain and simple fact that this IS a community. I can guarantee you that there are lots of people who have been reading this forum for years, but who hardly ever post. They are not part of a "clique," but they do know a little bit about the community.

I think you will find that when someone new shows up here and says "Hey, I'm new, what's up?" they get a chorus of "Welcome!" from the regular posters. When someone new walks into the neighborhood pub, sits down at the bar, looks around and announces "you people are [insert personal attack here]" um, yeah, we are not so sweet.

We have disagreements, often vociferous ones, but we all come here because we like to share opinions, triumphs, worries, and dreams. We get advice and give encouragement. We really don't WANT to be mean to each other, or to new people. But we are human, and if you come in loaded for bear, we're going to get a little defensive.

eventer girl
Sep. 7, 2005, 01:59 PM
I do understand what you are saying but ---

"Personally, I think you're a Troll."

not very nice wouldn't you say --which lead to being called a dork. (and i'm not attempting to single you out really i'm not)

Now granted when i started posting i had a thing or two to learn for sure.


jess --red lipstick was a sarcastic referance to behavior like that of a Dressage queen.

oh whatever have at each other.

JAGold
Sep. 7, 2005, 02:05 PM
Right, but I for one didn't doubt fergie's sincerity until she'd posted several antagonistic messages -- unfounded judgements of the help one rider got (on a different thread) and of how another manages a horse. My point is that benefit of the doubt only lasts so long. I'm not making it very clearly...and I don't have the time to keep trying, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. --Jess

Pat Ness
Sep. 7, 2005, 02:45 PM
eventer girl,
I totally agree with you concerning the eventing group on this board.
I'm not sure why I'm posting now as I quit posting here a long time ago...

Gnep
Sep. 7, 2005, 03:12 PM
You are perfectly right and got it perfectly correct, Event girl

3dazey
Sep. 7, 2005, 03:20 PM
Does anyone know where the button is that would allow me to change the name of this thread? I had a nightmare that Kim S. saw it and made it her personal mission to hunt me down and finish me off... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

When the dressage and h/j boards are coming over to take a peek at the carnage, things are out of hand. I think I'll start a new topic called "Is it okay to school cross country fences using drawreins" or somesuch to get everyone back rowing this boat in a similar direction.

This is too weird, even for me. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

BarbB
Sep. 7, 2005, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3dazey:
I had a nightmare that Kim S. saw it and made it her personal mission to hunt me down and finish me off... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

When the dressage and h/j boards are coming over to take a peek at the carnage, things are out of hand. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
maybe you could get Erin to take your name off the original post http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Gry2Yng
Sep. 7, 2005, 03:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3dazey:
I think I'll start a new topic called "Is it okay to school cross country fences using drawreins" or somesuch to get everyone back rowing this boat in a similar direction.

This is too weird, even for me. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL!

vineyridge
Sep. 7, 2005, 03:42 PM
Sort of on topic

I've been to Rolex 3 times, and the last two times I've spent a good deal of XCountry day at the Lexington Bank, because it is a wonderful vantage point for starting, finishing and the bank itself. This year I got to see Moonfleet's fall and lots of Winsome Adante, starting, finishing, and in the box at the end. Got to see a bunch of Philip Dutton, too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Moonfleet got up immediately after his fall and walked away apparently sound. There were vets in attendance almost instantly. Six weeks later, he was competing at Luhmuelen (sp). One would not think for a minute that his connections (love the race terminology, which is so applicable here)would have put him through another [alleged] ****, if the fall had shaken him or his confidence up badly.

I also watched Dan being cooled down, and he was just full of himself. He looked as if he knew he had been foot perfect and was ready to keep going. That horse is nowhere near ready to leave competition at the highest level. He'd probably be offended if someone other than Kim tried to ride him at a lower levels. With her, he'd probably do it, but only as a favor. He really is amazing, and his caretakers /connections are equally amazing for keeping him in such incredible shape.

I hope to see him again in 2007 at a classic Rolex, showing his heels to all his competitors.

deltawave
Sep. 7, 2005, 03:57 PM
When ANYONE on the BB starts letting fly with nasty ad hominems and rantings at anyone who disagrees with them, they are likely to get a dressing-down, either from the moderators or the "locals". The "locals" know each other well enough to write off the occasionaly snark or off-base comment...we don't know newcomers well enough (by definition!) to know if they're just trolling or an alter (a shameful way, IMO, to say things you're afraid to put your "name" to), someone who doesn't know better, or some crazy with an axe to grind.

How many people (fannyfetlocks, anyone? that was the one from LAST week) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif show up, rant, and then leave? LOTS of them. If you stick around, you earn the respect of the community, even *gasp* when your opinions aren't widely shared. But argument and disagreement are why we POST a lot of these threads. By "argument", by the way, I don't mean a negative thing. Plato and Socrates taught the ART of ARGUMENT, or logical discourse. It's not a bad thing. But hissy fits, name-calling, and pompous declamations are bad things, in general. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

And I guess I have to add a LOT more smileys, eye-rolleys, and winkies to my posts...lest I be accused of being a box of rocks again, or of needing a tranquilizer! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

GotSpots
Sep. 7, 2005, 04:05 PM
Oh, but DW, didn't you know that if you put that box of rocks in your upper level horse's stall, it will improve his ability to navigate cross-country obstacles thus building his enjoyment of the sport?

Carol Ames
Sep. 7, 2005, 04:14 PM
supporters) for allowing that to happen. Sometimes, fate just steps in and things don't work out as planned. H

Look folks, isn't this just life? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif What about the previous trip to Burghley, when, bothhorses colicked http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ?Let's face it the great lesson I have learned from my strokes is that, sometimes no matter how hard we try sh** still happens http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Which iswhat Ginny Leng said after a young horse hd a freak fall, and, died at a training session she gave at Morven Park, some years ago, I did not unerstand why everyone laughed but do now.

Carol Ames
Sep. 7, 2005, 04:33 PM
NO ONE is going to compete a horse at that level, if thethe horse does NOT want to do it http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif .

canterlope
Sep. 7, 2005, 04:33 PM
Tle, dw, etal. Haven't you girls learned yet that you should never engage in discourse with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with their vast moronic expertise. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Janet
Sep. 7, 2005, 05:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3dazey:
Does anyone know where the button is that would allow me to change the name of this thread? I had a nightmare that Kim S. saw it and made it her personal mission to hunt me down and finish me off... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep,

Pretty easy.

Go to the first post (assuming it WAS yours). Click on the "edit" button (looks like a pencil eraser).

Then edit the subject to be something else, then click "post"

free
Sep. 7, 2005, 06:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:

To all who despise me now: Why do you despise me? Is it because I have a different opinion from yours, and I am brave enough to talk about it? Is it because a little part of you feels guilty about what you do with your horse sometimes? I have felt that way before, I have made mistakes, and I have been selfish. I'm no saint! I think that is just human nature. But that DOESN'T mean we should never address things even if you decide NOT to change anything.

they'll keep wanting to do for us until it kills them... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A ring of truth found here.

free
Sep. 7, 2005, 07:10 PM
I heard an upper level trainer once say that some young riders never make it to Advanced because they are not brave enough to risk themselves...but there are a very few that will never make it only because they can't risk the horse...and those were the ones that he respected...and he could tell the difference.

Mary in Area 1
Sep. 7, 2005, 08:06 PM
Very interesting post, free. Lots to think about there.

Janet, "poat?" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

fergie
Sep. 7, 2005, 08:12 PM
I'm back from my catnap.
Free,
I like your style. You have an open mind - that's refreshing. Who is that upper level trainer? That's who I want to learn from.

To the rest of the felines:
This has turned into quite the alley cat fight. You all must have had some catnip tonight... There is an awful lot of hissing and scratching going on - I'm glad I had my rabies shot! And you are mistaken if you think that I care what you think of me, the "newcomer". My friends have open minds and a sense of humor, and they know that I would jump through hoops for them. Besides I thought this was an "open" forum, not a country club. This is not where I'D play golf. Maybe I'll go to the racing forum - at least they aren't snobs. If you mess with the bull, you get the horns. Just who IS the bull - you or me???????

Janet
Sep. 7, 2005, 08:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
Very interesting post, free. Lots to think about there.

Janet, "poat?" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OOPS
"post"

KellyS
Sep. 7, 2005, 08:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
To the rest of the felines:
This has turned into quite the alley cat fight. You all must have had some catnip tonight... There is an awful lot of hissing and scratching going on - I'm glad I had my rabies shot! And you are mistaken if you think that I care what you think of me, the "newcomer". My friends have open minds and a sense of humor, and they know that I would jump through hoops for them. Besides I thought this was an "open" forum, not a country club. This is not where I'D play golf. Maybe I'll go to the racing forum - at least they aren't snobs. If you mess with the bull, you get the horns. Just who IS the bull - you or me??????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, with all these references to felines, I thought I'd mistakenly landed in a Cat Fancy forum. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And you said DW had "road rage"? Sounds like you have an ax to grind with quite a few people.

Personally, I think Canterlope's take on the matter is quite accurate! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

citygrrrrl
Sep. 7, 2005, 08:41 PM
um...to go back to the beginning, does anyone know how kim & dan are doing?

fergie
Sep. 7, 2005, 08:58 PM
Meow. I've just sharpened my claws on a scratching post.
Did you think that was going to work on me? I worked in N.Y. - I've got quite thick skin and I love games... I was just trying to pose an ethics question for thought, not war. But O.K., I've gotten my rifle. I'll have to get in touch with the other nonconformists that you chased away. Now you have just made this more fun for me... No.., actually..., you are a waste of my time. Oh..., I don't know..., you'll have to keep checking....
P.S. "It's the hard that makes it great..." - That's from MY POST. Are you sure you want to repeat that so often?

Ishi
Sep. 7, 2005, 09:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
P.S. "It's the hard that makes it great..." - That's from MY POST. Are you sure you want to repeat that so often? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought Tom Hanks said that to Geena Davis in A League Of Their Own http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif That and the "There's no crying in baseball!" are two classic lines http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

fergie
Sep. 7, 2005, 09:59 PM
Ishi,
(Yes, I'm a vampire - I love the night. Would prefer to sleep during the day except my horses don't like that...)
Yes, that's right! I love that movie! my husband and I watch it over and over again. The other one I like is his "Castaway" movie when he calls out for his volley ball "Wilson". Actually, I loved "Big" too. Oh, I think I like all of his work.
I think "there's no crying in riding" would work too, don't you?

fergie
Sep. 7, 2005, 10:24 PM
One final note: I think I'm done fighting. I'm waving the white flag. I'm tired. Life is short. I'm sorry to anyone I offended. I hope Kim and her horse have many more successes. I hope that anyone who wants to do the upper levels does well. There is part of me that still craves that too, and yes, I would do a 4 star on a seasoned horse, given the opportunity. Surprised? Don't be. I think eventing is the ultimate test of excellence for horse and rider. Above all though, I just love horses, regardless. That's it, you can have your forum back.
Good night.

Chaser
Sep. 8, 2005, 02:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carol Ames:
NO ONE is going to compete a horse at that level, if thethe horse does NOT want to do it http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely.

If a horse loses his appetite for XC, then no one is going to make him do it.

There has to be an honest partnership between horse and rider. These riders know their horses so well - it takes years (with some talented exceptions) for horse and rider to gain such mutual trust that they can safely and enjoyably tackle a **** course. After someone has put in all this effort to get the horse to the top of his game, why shouldn't they be allowed to continue as long as the horse wants to, and is sound enough? As others have pointed out, 12 is not old by any means!! At 12, a top eventer is at his prime.

I watched the horses waiting to start at Burghley. They were full of enthusiasm, knowing that xc was to come. I saw them finish full of running, for the most part, and still looking for fences to jump!

I also saw people pull up when they realised their horse wasn't firing on all cylinders, because they didn't want to risk that horse or themselves when his heart wasn't in it.

It is all about horsemanship.

3dazey
Sep. 8, 2005, 04:10 AM
Thank you, Janet. I can sleep tonight in peace!

BIG SIGH OF RELIEF!

canterlope
Sep. 8, 2005, 05:43 AM
Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how much of a "herd" we've become on this BB? Think about it.

When a newcomer is introduced into the "herd", he/she puffs herself up, snorts, squeals, kicks, and throws his/her tail up over her back showing his/her arse. The rest of the herd either ignores the newcomer or snorts, squeals, and kicks back. After establishing the pecking order, the newcomer either goes off to sulk by his/her self or realizes that he/she is no Secretariat and falls in amicably with the rest of the ponies. Then everybody goes back to grazing.

It really is true. Everything we've learned, we've learned from our horses. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

tle
Sep. 8, 2005, 05:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
To the rest of the felines:
This has turned into quite the alley cat fight. You all must have had some catnip tonight... There is an awful lot of hissing and scratching going on - I'm glad I had my rabies shot! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Only because you made it into such a fight dearie with comments like that one.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And you are mistaken if you think that I care what you think of me, the "newcomer". My friends have open minds and a sense of humor, and they know that I would jump through hoops for them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
1 - nice for you.
2 - see another vague reference that is suppose to impress. It doesn't.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you mess with the bull, you get the horns. Just who IS the bull - you or me??????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
According to my longstanding nickname, I'd guess me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">P.S. "It's the hard that makes it great..." - That's from MY POST. Are you sure you want to repeat that so often? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Glad someone else busted you on this. Nice try. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I've had this on my sig line (from the MOVIE) for ages now. Probably close to a year since ST3D got going last fall. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Fence2Fence
Sep. 8, 2005, 05:58 AM
Canterlope~

I just about snorted starbucks all over my keyboard!

RAyers
Sep. 8, 2005, 08:05 AM
I am confused. Does this mean I can't take my horse advanced now? I think I hit him once on course a couple of years ago so does that mean he doesn't want to do this?

Reed

deltawave
Sep. 8, 2005, 09:17 AM
Reed, you big bully, of COURSE you shouldn't take him Advanced. You should send him to me to pack my pitiful butt around at Prelim some more. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I ain't brave enough to move up, and due to my overwhelming guilt at my substandard horse care my poor, crippled mare who hates to event is retiring from Prelim after this season. (oops, remember the sarcasm icon...) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

SO I need a new horse to abuse until Bonnie's old enough. But hey, she stopped at a jump last week--do you think I should retire HER, too? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Gnep
Sep. 8, 2005, 05:05 PM
Reed
Naturaly you should not. Dressage is kinde an iffy afair for him, like a crsah on X-C.
Retirement, period.
Maybe you could retire him dressagewise ( would love to see you coming down the center line salut the judge and tell him/her, thats all there is since you had to retire him from dressage and you would gladly move straight to X-C or stadium ).
A modified especial de dressage.

Gry2Yng
Sep. 8, 2005, 05:27 PM
Gee, I actually thought this thread was gone and I started on page one with the new title. I was curious to see what had grown to seven pages overnight. After two or three posts I had "deja vu all over again". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

pwynnnorman
Sep. 8, 2005, 05:54 PM
Y'know, I find it a curious thing that on some of the horse BB's on the internet, unlike other sports, people can't just ENJOY their opinions--here, as someone implied--it's almost like you have to "qualify" to express an opinion. And even then, you have to "soften" it with lots of "IMOs," even if that's just not your style. (Some of us are inclined to speak and write as firmly as we feel.)

In other sports, part of the pleasure of participating and/or spectating IS speculating about the personalities and events involved. Celebrity-hood puts one in the spotlight, whether you are Mark Phillips or Kim Vinoski--and enthusiasts find it fun to expostulate on what celebrities do, should do or didn't/can't/wouldn't do. It's the price of getting your name in print...and, y'know, why should it matter if you are a person or a horse? It doesn't matter to Kim any more than it does to Dan himself that someone on thinks he should retire, not any more than it matters to that Steinbrenner guy that many people think he's the south end of a northbound horse.

IMO (there it goes!), one reason why these threads become so inflamed is because the in-crowd hears something they don't agree with and starts taking shots at the messenger instead of the message--usually because the messenger didn't manage to expertly put her message in a way which he crowd would find palatable (oh, poo poo). I've experienced that lots of times (like the Kentucky and head injury issue, many points of which ended up being virtually duplicated by the USEA Safety Committee in their policies and recommendations). Indeed, I've intentionally withheld my "qualifications" until very late in the game because I didn't then and don't now see why anyone should have to qualify to express opinion.

It's a sport, not a vocation. Wouldn't it be lovely if both sides of a contentious issue could stay focused on what is said instead of who said it or how?

For example, I have no opinion whasoever on Dan retiring, but what about the impact of appearing to "overdo it" with an older horse? What about the impression (of the sport) that might create (BIG "might")? Again, I'm not sure it really matters one bit to anyone sympathetic to the sport, but some animal rights people will take any crack and try to squeeze their radical views into it. Might be worth it to plan a rebuttal to that potentiality (is that a word?).

Carol Ames
Sep. 8, 2005, 06:22 PM
May I remind everyone that Beth Perkins' Furtive, after he had jumped around the WM course at Burghley theatt Burghley was short listed for the Olympics at Montreal, but, was putdown after breakinghis hock inhis stall att home. and, what about Murphy Himself who was destroyed following a pasture injury ? Anyone whothinks riders do not consider ior know ofthe riskshas never beenin the stabling area before Speed and Endurance; zEveryone is very somber, pensive, deep in concentrtion/prayer.

Carol Ames
Sep. 8, 2005, 06:41 PM
Shouldn't we all be "pulling to gether", supporting one another rathe than taking "cheasp shots?"at someonewho is "down?"

adamsmom
Sep. 8, 2005, 07:32 PM
Amen Carol.

deltawave
Sep. 9, 2005, 04:06 AM
I actually think there HAVE been a lot of good points raised here, and a lot of good debate. It was not the "locals" who began the ranting and raving. There's a large gap between "palatable" and nasty name-calling; the latter is rarely tolerated and just silly, as it instantly destroys one's credibility.

Nuthin' wrong with getting "inflamed" over a topic. IMO. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Everyone's "style" is different and not all of us are blessed with eloquence, sagacity and temperance every moment of the day. In other words, we, as human beings, occasionally lose our cool. This is why I kind of like human beings... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LisaB
Sep. 9, 2005, 04:42 AM
But you guys forgot something!!!!
We MUST intentionally FLIP our horses before we retire them!!!!
Okay, I recently was talking to Mr. Dan-owner and let me tell you, they absolutely are enamoured with Dan. They wouldn't push him beyond his years, ever.
I've witnessed more low level folks push their horse beyond their capability/soundness than I ever have with the ULR's.
Heck I just saw Grand Slam competing TR with his owner. He looked quite happy.

deltawave
Sep. 9, 2005, 06:26 AM
And didja catch the part where "fergie" was insulting people, calling them "dorks" and "boxes of rocks" and telling them they needed tranquilizers? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif That isn't "mean"?

tle
Sep. 9, 2005, 06:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carol Ames:
May I remind everyone that Beth Perkins' Furtive, after he had jumped around the WM course at Burghley theatt Burghley was short listed for the Olympics at Montreal, but, was putdown after breakinghis hock inhis stall att home. and, what about Murphy Himself who was destroyed following a pasture injury ? Anyone whothinks riders do not consider ior know ofthe riskshas never beenin the stabling area before Speed and Endurance; zEveryone is very somber, pensive, deep in concentrtion/prayer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Carol, if I can add to your list --

Sunburst, 16yo Aussie team gold winner in Atlanta (would have been double gold in the old formats), but down 9 months later due to a pasture injury.

Swizzle-In, individual silver medal in Sydney, euthanized due to a pasture injury also within a year after the Olympics.

DW - http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

LisaB - D@MN I knew I was missing something in Frankie's first XC school. Flipping and finging ... crap, how could i have been such a dork and forgot something so important! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif Thanks for the reminder. She must know that before next weekend!

fergie
Sep. 9, 2005, 07:35 AM
tle - Dungeons and dragons this weekend?

pwynnnorman
Sep. 9, 2005, 07:56 AM
tle, Carol: I missed your points somehow and am curious about what those examples represent. Would you explain again, please? It's quite a stunning list of horses!

deltawave
Sep. 9, 2005, 08:16 AM
I think the examples given are meant to point out that horses' careers can end unexpectedly at any time, due to pasture accidents and freak occurrences. And "retirement" does not necessarily mean "free from risk". Horses are fragile critters and pretty good at hurting themselves. The very best of care and thoughtful management of their careers is the best we can do for them--we can't protect them from freak accidents and bad luck, whether they're cruising around a CCI**** or posturing for the best pile of hay in their paddock. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tle
Sep. 9, 2005, 08:51 AM
windline... I hope you're including the previously defended fergie in your exasperation. I'm not entirely sure what her last post to me is supposed to mean (dungeons and dragons???) , but I'm fairly confident it was an unprovoked dig directly at me.

fergie... is that the best you can do? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

pywynn... lynn is exactly right, at least from what I was posting. Horses are horses and as wonderful as they are, we all know they are fragile. Doesn't matter what we do, short of bubble wrap and/or not owning them at all, accidents will happen even to the best of them. and if not accidents, unforseen medical issues -- like the canadian horse who died at Rolex at the Lexington Bank a few years back -- not of an accident or fall, but of an aneurysm that no one could have foreseen.

Perfect Pony
Sep. 9, 2005, 08:55 AM
I have to come to the defense of fergie, at least a little bit. After reading this thread I can't not say something, even if it pisses some people off.

Over the last few years I have become very dissapointed in much of the upper level eventors/eventing. I have seen many horses pushing beyond their limits when I truely feel they should have been either retired, or at the least retired to pack someone around novice, etc.

I know of a horse, a very nice former upper level horse trained and competed one time by an Olympian, who it was my understanding should NEVER had gone back to the upper levels due to injuries and an extended time off. All of a sudden I see him, not long after being brought out of lay-up, in the results running intermediate. Within a couple months I hear that the horse is dead after a terrible accident schooling, and the Olympian was doing the coaching. I'm sorry, but this made me sick. This was a horse with the heart, mind and skill, but many people KNEW he didn't have the body anymore. TRAGIC.

Another horse I know of that ran Rolex several years ago was pulled out of Rolex 2 years ago due to a medical condition. At that time I heard the vets recommend he not be brought back into higher level competition. He also has other issues that make him a constant risk of serious colic at competitions. I just saw him a couple months ago running around at prelim, and God only knows what these peoples plans are for him http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Another horse well into his teens, that I know makes mistakes, and standing there looks like he's been through hell, I just saw out going intermediate. Suprise suprise, eliminated on XC.

These are just a few examples. And I, personally, grieve for these horses. They have done enough. And I wonder what, if anything, can ever be done about it?

persefne
Sep. 9, 2005, 09:08 AM
Windline, to flashback to earlier references to A League of Their Own, "there's no crying on the COTH forums!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I find it interesting that all 3 of your posts on this page have had to do with the personal issue of posters/poster's tones or attitudes/and your general impression of how different people address certain topics or other posters. Fine. BUT! This thread is titled "Eventing risks discussion." Let's get back to the original topic, or else you are absolutely right, "it's not worth the effort."

All kidding aside, and I know my earlier post did poke fun at the to retire/ to not retire issue in a very tongue-in-cheek way, I have to add that what I think what we all agree on here is that 1.) eventing, especially at the upper levels, is incredibly risky to horses and riders; 2.) no one can make the perfect decision about what's too much/can we do more, but the people who are best equipped to decide are the riders, owners, and vets of the particular horses; 3.) it is healthy to have discussions that ask hard questions: "was Dan pushed too hard in running Burghley?" I know I mentioned the thing about Primmore's Pride having uncharacteristic stops at Gatcombe (therefore, resulting in his scratch at Burghley), but he's under vet observation based upon that. That's exactly what we want to see. But, we shouldn't all assume that Pippa is just over there biting her fingernails saying, should I retire him or not? If Dan had had a similar bad outing prior to Burghley, then we might rightly so question Kim or Linda's discretion in running him (especially, now, after his *very* uncharacteristic fall/misstep). But, who's to know that a great horse will take a sticky spot, get to a fence awkwardly, or just plain old have an unusual accident? That's the name of the game when you compete in a high-risk sport. So, what are we exactly asking here: do we try to anticipate the "accidents" and retire beforehand (impossible!) or do we avoid the unknown altogether by removing ourselves and our horses from eventing while we're still safe and sound? My answer to the second option is, why even be an eventer in the first place? If you choose the second option with a young, capable, and willing horse, then you might as well just take up hunter/jumpers or dressage or any other number of "non-eventing" disciplines, because there is no use pursuing a demanding sport that you can't tackle with confidence and dedication. And, who's to say that if Dan was pulled from upper-level eventing next week and run in Training or Prelim that he wouldn't flip on fence #2 at Fair Hill (or wherever) and break his neck. So, how do some of you hope to see it ensured that these great horses get retired at the right time? Those of us who think it's an impossible question for us to ask, and believe it is better answered by those most highly equipped to know and directly care for those horses, have already expressed our feelings about that.

Ewwww. Edited because sometimes when I type fast, I don't make sense!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

RAyers
Sep. 9, 2005, 09:09 AM
What is being discussed is personal responsibility. That being said, we, as outsiders can not dictate what that responsibility is. We can express outrage but we must temper that with the fact the none of us knows exactly what the circumstances are.

Perfect Pony, if I might use you as an example, do you really know the specifics concerning the horse that was killed? You bring up good examples but did you have access to the vet reports and talk with the owner? When you say "it was my understanding..." it implies to me that some of the infromation was second and possibly 3rd hand.

That is what is going on here. Some folks are asking valid questions but at the same time casting stones at those who question their motivations. It is my responsibility to take care of my horse. I am his caretaker, nobody else. If I make a mistake it is what I have have to live with. If fergie and others choose to question my decisions, that is fine, but do not judge me because you do not know the full story. Now, Gnep, he knows the full story but he ain't talking. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If a person is willing to ask me directly that is fine too, but I sure as hell will not yield the care of my horse to the whims of those that are not directly involved in his life.

Reed

Perfect Pony
Sep. 9, 2005, 09:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RAyers:
Perfect Pony, if I might use you as an example, do you really know the specifics concerning the horse that was killed? You bring up good examples but did you have access to the vet reports and talk with the owner? When you say "it was my understanding..." it implies to me that some of the infromation was second and possibly 3rd hand. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was at the barn in question when the horse was on lay up. It was fairly common knowledge that the horse had been a great horse, and had been injured, and would probably never return to upper level competition. It was a very short time period between the horse just sitting around, and seeing him in the results running intermediate.

My friend was there when he was killed at a intermediate/advanced jump during schooling.

I have to say when heard about it my heart sank and it made me sick.

I was only at that barn for 2 months due to what I thought was a blantent disregard for the health and life of the horses, and a total tunnel vision with regards to running at the upper levels and "results" based IMOP purely on ego. That these people work with a well known Olympic Medalist, well I can't really get my head around it http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I have to ad that I don't think EVERY person is like this. I know upper level riders with great horses that they DO NOT compete because it isn't in the best interest of the horse. And these horses are sound enough that they could be pushed to do it.

And this isn't just eventers either, I know that. I quit my job as an assistant trainer (15 years ago) for a BNT at a top H/J barn because I had a hard time dealing with the reality of horses as a "business".

The stakes are just so damn high when talking about upper level eventing.

RAyers
Sep. 9, 2005, 09:39 AM
Thank you for clarifying things, Perfect Pony.

I agree there are those that look at horses as commodities to be used. The only thing we can do is to choose not to support those businesses/trainers.

subk
Sep. 9, 2005, 10:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
When do they get to stop? Do they always have to break first? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is an incredibly offensive statement to someone whose former upper level horse took and adult amateur around her first Training course last weekend.

The "risks of eventing" is a great subject, but surely it can be accomplished without acerbic comments and insulting generalizations.

Carol Ames
Sep. 9, 2005, 10:52 AM
I personally find it highly self righteous to have this discussion about someone elses' horsse, for whom they have shown a "nothing is too expensive, too difficult, or out of he question "attitude in terms of his care, and, well being.Who mdae us Judges of his fitness to do what he so obviously loves.The horse did not stop or get hung up on a fence but, "atacked " a fence boldly and following th age old advice "kick on" a "hiccup" happened, and, now people are deemed , byhemselves , as qualified to judge?

Fence2Fence
Sep. 9, 2005, 10:54 AM
I want to add something to the discussion. So, this post isn't to stir the pot, but hopefully, to add value to the discussion. I don't agree with the manner Fergie has portrayed her points, but she has a valid ethical argument.

Eventing isn't without it's people who disregard the health of the horse. Sometimes happens because it's tunnel vision, accidental, or ignorance. I like to think that no one buys a horse and thinks "I'm going to compete this horse until he has no juice left." But it happens--with both lower and upper level horses and they'd probably all swear they were doing the best thing for the horse.

I think there is a temptation when you have a great horse (or maybe just a horse you love) to keep trying and to get past the injuries.

This opinion comes from personal experience:
My first horse, which I've had for over ten years now, is my absolute pet. He's has been "semi-retired" for the last year and a half. He injured his front leg and I was told his eventing career was over. Nine months into the healing process, it was going very well. The injury was almost undectable, and he regained a significant amount of his joint mobility. Then, when everything was going so well, another accident happened that resulted in an infection of the bone (hind leg). Just to make it more heart breaking, it was in an area that bears a considerable amount of weight. The vets gave me a 50% chance kicking the infection with the strongest antibiotics on the market, and a slimmer chance of him ever being sound. I was going to have to consider putting him down. Bone infections are very difficult to heal, and I wouldn't want my horse to be turned out without being at least being pasture sound.

Miracles happen... not only did we kick the infection, but he's sound. At our last visit, the vet actually looked at me and shook his head with a comment "This horse has nine lives."

He's back in work and really seems to enjoy his job. I found myself trotting cross rails, and then a small verticle just to vary the flatwork and help him use different muscles.

He seems happy and comfortable enough, but then I found myself thinking "what if... wouldn't it be great to event him again? maybe in a year? bring him back really slowly..." But then I realized than I'm beyond lucky, and that to seriously entertain those thoughts is just greedy.

There's a temptation there to start over and to see what happens. Why not? He seems sound enough? But what if things are just tolerable for him?

Sometimes, stopping things a little early is better than waiting to quit when the horse is so broken down that's its obvious that he shouldn't be asked to do any more.

I agree that people should make their own decisions regarding the welfare of their own horses. But, it's important to know where the line is for "when enough is enough."

Sincerely,
F2F

fergie
Sep. 9, 2005, 10:54 AM
Perfect Pony:
That's the kind of stuff that I was referring to. I just choose not to post my details - you're very brave.. and I really respect you. Everyone should know that the bad (and the good) is out there in EVERY sport EVERYWHERE. But this forum is supposed to be about horses and eventing, right? I just think that we, as equestrians, have a responsibility to the horses to monitor their environment (yes, ALL of us), even if we DON'T change anything. Seems like the animal rights activists and the press have similar ideas. Better get on it first if you want the sport to survive...! I believe that's how rules have been changed before by the FEI and the USEA to protect horses (and riders....), no? Ideas get change rolling, if need be. Isn't that what America is supposed to be about? Hmm, I think the voters who vote on things aren't NECESSARILY the users or the operators or the profiters (I don't know if it's a word!), right???? I HAD to get back on my soap box now that I have some allies, who seem very lucid and intelligent, by the way. Notice I didn't use any personal insults? I react to my environment. Survival, you know?
P.S. Does anyone know how Sharon White is making out? That's actually why I started reading this thing to begin with... I just can't stand such little, narrow minds here.

BarbB
Sep. 9, 2005, 10:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Notice I didn't use any personal insults? I react to my environment. Survival, you know?....

........ I just can't stand such little, narrow minds here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Any valid points you make get lost in the (apparently intended) next round of insult flinging. When you throw emotional and/or insulting statements around people tend to respond to them instead of to the argument.
If this is the goal.....have at it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Perfect Pony
Sep. 9, 2005, 11:01 AM
F2F thanks for the post.

For the record, IMOP there is a HUGE difference between eventing BN-training and prelim and above. There seems to be several differen conversations going on here. IMOP an advanced level horse who comes back from and injury to pack someone around novice or even training is a hell of a lot different than a horse who was seriously injured and brought back to the more upper levels. The later is what I refer to, where IMOP again, you are really risking the life of the horse AND the rider.

Lots of horses mentally do want to work, but you cannot tell me those horses need to be galloping even prelim level fences when in many instances they are lucky to be semi-sound again. We all know it takes a very special horse to compete successfully at the upper levels, and in the cases I stated, these horses bobble and say "no" for damn good reasons, and it makes me sick when people don't listen.

Anyway, I think fergie, like myself, is talking about bringing horses back to the upper levels, not about the ones that come back to lope around novice.

persefne
Sep. 9, 2005, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Notice I didn't use any personal insults? I react to my environment. Survival, you know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I started to really think about and consider some of your issues in that last post. Until, two sentences later...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
...I just can't stand such little, narrow minds here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't complain about the barbs you get thrown when you yourself profess to being above that, then immediately contradict yourself by treating *all of us* in kind. You may be just angry at several posters, but when you make statements like the one above, *everybody who posts here* takes offense at that kind of general and irrational remark. Your questions regarding the eventing risks are valid; Your continued aggressive and negative attitude towards the rest of us on here reading, thinking, and posting is sad and counterproductive. Can you really not see how you accuse others of doing precisely what you then turn around and do yourself?

By the way, I'm interested in the discussion of putting an injured horse back to work, so let's please move on and keep to the topic at hand.

GotSpots
Sep. 9, 2005, 11:14 AM
I've thought alot about this issue - as many of you know, our much beloved horse Presto died at Fair Hill last year, following a fall at a ditch and wall. But I've been exceptionally hesitant to draw on personal experiences here because I cannot pretend that our experience are or were anything like anyone else's. Though to some extent I'm sure, that at some level, someone, somewhere, was criticizing the decisions we made with Presto and/or blaming his rider, trainer, owner, vet, farrier, something as contributing to his death.

I can tell you this, and only this: would Spot still be alive today had we decided not to take him Advanced or to Fair Hill? I do not know. He could have colicked, he could have jumped out of his field and been hit by a car, he could have suffered a pasture accident, or he could be standing in his stall demanding his lunch and threatening to bite someone if he didn't get it promptly. I feel tremendously guilty that I do not know and fear terribly that something we did - some choice or failing let down this glorious animal. We all have spent hours wondering what we could have done better, different, otherwise.

We know only this: that we made the best decisions we knew how to make at the time we were making them. We consulted with people with knowledge in the sport and with the best vets we could find. We tried to do the right thing by him, and by ourselves: to prepare him for a challenge that he seemed to enjoy and flourish in. Is that an excuse? Of course not. It is, at best, an explanation, a human failing. And it is one that I suspect is shared by the overwhelming majority of owners and riders. There will always be an example out there of someone who lets hubris interfere with the welfare of their horses. But I suspect, no, I know, that there are far, far more riders and owners and teams who try, to the best of their admittedly limited and human abilities, to do what's right by their beasts. I would not dare to judge them.

tle
Sep. 9, 2005, 11:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Windline:
Cant help wondering what you folks would be like to have as borders!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Personally I think I'd be a great border -- put me there and no illegal alien is getting by me! Good use of the pitbull if I do say so. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Sorry, I couldnt' help myself. Actually if you ask my current barn owner (going on 2.5 years),I am a great boarder. Then again, I am in a partial care environment and do most of my own care of my own horse.

Have to ditto BarbB's http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Like persefne, I think fergie HAS valid points (although a bit overreactive IMHO since I personally see THIS sport policing itself very well) but the message is getting lost in the attitude.

pharmgirl
Sep. 9, 2005, 11:21 AM
I find it interesting how a few people posting here say they don't like this board because of how nasty people can get during discussions (like some other forums here), and that's why they've stayed away--BUT yet they for some reason have to chime in now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I have been here some time, mostly lurking, and find the people that post here to have some of the most stimulating constructive conversations I've ever seen. To those people who don't like it here, just leave then. No one is stopping you.

Back to the original discussion: what seemed to prompt it was Dan's nasty fall at Burghley. I think it's agreed upon that no one but the owners/caretakers of these horses know the full story, but I still can't stop thinking about anyone who might question a horse competing (at higher levels or otherwise) after one bad fall (and not being the youngest horse out there.

This brings me to my question( and I know it's a little different scenario with the horses because they can't speak to tell us their feelings, and they entrust us to care for them and do what is right for them):

How many of us riders here have had some nasty fall or freak accident (myself included http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif) and said "I'm not going to ride anymore"? Is anyone saying that Bruce shouldn't be competing anymore because he injured himself in a freak accident?
I'm sure many of us have also been told we can't/shouldn't do something pertaining to riding anymore, but yet we still find a way.

Just something that came to mind.

tle
Sep. 9, 2005, 11:25 AM
GotSpots... your post was beautiful. Thanks for putting it down.

It did make me have a "tangent" type thought along this thread. There are a LOT of people (and I know everyone here knows at least one if not a dozen) who simply do NOT KNOW! I know I was one of them and in certain areas, I still am. I thought I was doing the right thing -- I had an instructor. She was also the barn manager, went to college for equestrian studies, taught lessons, etc. I took weekly lessons from her for a year before buying my first horse. She was with me when I bought Char. Took almost weekly lessons with her for 4 more years before stopping lessons (6 months before moving to a different barn and being more or less on my own). She helped figure out what my horse should be fed, how she should be ridden, who I used as a farrier and a vet. She was with me when I "discovered" eventing and with me at each event for the next 4 years (beginner novice to Training). I was doing everything a novice horse owner and newbie eventer should do right?

WRONG!! I look back at some of the things I did and some of the decisions I made while under her guidance and shudder. We weren't going upper levels but I would venture to say that the overall condition and safety/methodology of our training was horrible compared to what it was in the following years. I have a picture that I used to love taken at a local hunter show that I can't even look at any more because MY knowledge has grown and it sickens me to think that I thought the way Char looked was "normal". I was/am a book-aholic. Did clinics with upper level eventers (Stuart Black, Karen O'Connor, Jimmy Wofford, etc.). Yet I was probably screwing up my horse at that time as much as any run at an upper level course.

Who's to say it's the upper levels that are so bad? The risk may be greater (of course it is at that specific moment), but the day to day pounding at the lower levels can be just as bad, right?

I know this is a big of a tangent, but GotSpots post about always wondering if you made the right decisions struck a chord with me. I will always wonder things about Char and even about Frankie and I've had her less than a year (and she hasn't made her eventing debut yet much less run at the upper levels).

BarbB
Sep. 9, 2005, 12:00 PM
Something just popped into my little head about the risks and perception of risk.
Not to say which is right and which is wrong, but......
This discussion and others before it have been prompted by a well known horse having a fall.

Times and attitudes toward falls have changed.

Polly Phillips (UK) was killed in a fall with her horse Coral Cove when the horse fell on her. This horse was considered to be a cross country machine and one of the most nimble horses competing. Her husband continued to compete the horse after her death and praised the horse for having exceptional ability to get itself out of trouble.
You can't have a worse fall than this, barring the horse AND rider being killed, yet there was no talk about how the horse should be retired.
This was several years ago.

I recently watched an early 80s Badminton tape and saw horse after horse take incredible falls, many the somersaulting-could be deadly type, and horse and rider got up, got reorganized and went back to the competition.

My point is that attitudes change - for better or for worse is up to you - .....but maybe a hue and cry that a horse should be retired after a fall at a **** event is a little overdone.

subk
Sep. 9, 2005, 12:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BarbB:
Something just popped into my little head about the risks and perception of risk.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actual vs. perceptive--great point. Children are statistically much more likely to suffer head injury in a car than on a bike. Yet our helmet laws for children only pertain to kids on bikes. If you want to have a more significant impact you'd require helmets for children in CARS.

What do you suppose the life expectancy and quality of life issues are for feral/wild horses compared to upper level event horses?

bornfreenowexpensive
Sep. 9, 2005, 12:44 PM
GotSpots--I loved your horse (although I'm sure not like you did). He was a cool guy. I saw it happen at fair hill (but I was on the landing side). I watched Amanda fall too. I've been there when other horses have died as well--not just eventers but jumpers too. Every time has made me wonder--is this something I want to do. Is this something I want to risk my horse on. Yet I've also had horses get major injuries in the pasture and had to put one down this spring--crap happens.

Good riders--eventers and others--understand the risks and are always evaluating whether to take these risks with themselves and with their horses. If you don't--you are not taking the sport seriously. I don't know if I will ever go advanced or take the risk and allow one of my horses to go that far--I will cross that bridge when (if) I get there. I do think it is an individual question. The horses at that level love what they are doing--the riders at the level love the sport. There are risks in all life and I do think that there are some risks worth taking. But people need to make their own decisions as to what's best for their horse and themselves--on an informed basis. Given the same facts, we will all make different choices--and I for one do not want anyone making that choice for me. You can not go back and second guess your self either (although you will since that is human nature). You just have to take what you learn from each of your choices and use it when making your next choice. How dull life would be if we didn't take some risk. But the questions do need to be asked--at all times because the risk is there whether you are going BN or Adv or just going out on a hack and people should be making decisions conscious of the risks.

deltawave
Sep. 9, 2005, 12:55 PM
Perfect Pony, your story is very sad! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Yes, I can think of some "BNTs" to whom I wouldn't send a horse for love or money. People do this sport for all different reasons, not all of them 100% "for the love of the sport". But I know a WHOLE LOT MORE people who devote themselves to their horses to the very best of their abilities and wouldn't dream of doing anything like what you've described. And yet, horses owned by both varieties of people still die, get injured or are ruined in accidents. THAT you can't do much about.

What to do about the disreputable trainers who treat horses like disposable commodities? DON'T RIDE WITH THEM. Don't buy the products made by their sponsors. Let the sponsors know why. No need to badmouth anyone.

3dazey
Sep. 9, 2005, 01:30 PM
Beautiful post bornfreenowexpensive. Very eloquently put. I'm proud of all you good children for playing so nice (for the most part) today. I think we have covered alot of fertile ground. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

But can we please not retire Dan just yet? And how IS Kim S. anyway...will we see her riding SEVEN horses at the AECs??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

fergie
Sep. 9, 2005, 01:48 PM
GotSpots:
I am truly sorry if my topic upset you. I can't imagine what that must be like to carry around that horror with you. For that, I am truly sorry.

JAGold
Sep. 9, 2005, 02:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GotSpots:
We know only this: that we made the best decisions we knew how to make at the time we were making them. We consulted with people with knowledge in the sport and with the best vets we could find. We tried to do the right thing by him, and by ourselves: to prepare him for a challenge that he seemed to enjoy and flourish in. Is that an excuse? Of course not. It is, at best, an explanation, a human failing. And it is one that I suspect is shared by the overwhelming majority of owners and riders. There will always be an example out there of someone who lets hubris interfere with the welfare of their horses. But I suspect, no, I know, that there are far, far more riders and owners and teams who try, to the best of their admittedly limited and human abilities, to do what's right by their beasts. I would not dare to judge them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

GotSpots, I could not agree with you more -- or have more respect for your courage and grace throughout Presto's career and after it was over.

I can only add that I've stood in the 10 minute box at some very big competitions, sending out horses and riders I cared very much about and waiting for them to come back. Everyone I've worked with -- riders, coaches, vets, farriers, and other grooms -- has shown utmost concern for the horses, and a sometimes painfully keen awareness of the inherent risks.

I don't think it's possible to protect horses from danger absolutely, and if we accept that we are going to ride them at all, then we accept that we are adding an element of danger to their lives. Of course, we are taking away other elements of danger. Our implicit contract with our horses is that they will not starve or go thirsty, nor suffer from exposure to extreme weather, nor contract preventable illnesses.

So the question about when horses should retire isn't about how to protect them from the dangers of upper level eventing in general. Rather, it's about assessing when those dangers become more pronounced for an individual horse. And there's no simple formula. Moreover, there are many, many safeguards built into the sport. As you all know, at three day events horses are examined by the veterinary panel three times. Even at horse trials, horses can be spun for lameness and riders eliminated for dangerous riding. Our sport gives experts who directly observe the horses in competition the right and responsibility to advocate for their welfare.

But ultimately, I still believe that the best protection that any horse, upper level or otherwise, has is the good intentions of the people responsible for his care. Ultimately, those people have the most information to make the best decisions.

Think about Rolex 2002. It absolutely poured rain throughout the second half of XC day. Some riders elected to withdraw, or retired on course when their horses seemed to have trouble with the footing. Others didn't. But the riders, in conjunction with the owners, vets, and coaches, made those decisions based on information that they had and the rest of the world didn't necessarily have. Who but the rider knows how a given horse feels galloping on a slick surface? There isn't any general rule that could have predicted that Kim would feel it was too slick for Royal Venture, but Gina Miles, in her first Rolex, would have a good, clean go with McKinlaigh. There's no way anyone who wasn't connected to the horse could have known why Phillip withdrew but Bruce Davidson was able to go out there and give a riding demonstration over that wet, soggy course that I will never forget.

What we saw there was that the system worked. Riders, coaches, vets, farriers, and owners sought out information and made decisions that they were comfortable with. And believe me, the atmosphere in the box was of erring on the side of caution, whatever that meant for a given horse and rider. No one there needed his or her decisions second guessed by someone who didn't have all of the relevant information. And it would not have been possible for someone without all of the relevant information to make as good decisions as were made by the parties involved.

It's one thing to talk about systems for protecting horses and about how to ensure that safeguards are part of our competitions. But it's a totally different thing to speculate about decisions made on behalf of one particular horse, without having all of the information that the people who made those decisions relied on. --Jess

RAyers
Sep. 9, 2005, 02:05 PM
GotSpots' experience is exactly what others have suggested.

While it is justified that folks like fergie ask questions, it is not their right to make judgement on the owners and riders of these horses. The questions fergie asked are questions we all should ask ourselves but the only people who can answer them are ourselves. And so long as we can honestly say we tried our best and did everything in our power to keep the horse healthy then everybody must accept it, regardless.

To allow any other person to judge how and why we do what we do is to invite the arbitrary power of another person over our companions.

Reed

Gry2Yng
Sep. 9, 2005, 03:24 PM
JAGold - You are so incredibly articulate and passonate. I love reading your posts.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> While it is justified that folks like fergie ask questions, it is not their right to make judgement on the owners and riders of these horses. The questions fergie asked are questions we all should ask ourselves but the only people who can answer them are ourselves. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am so fortunate to be a friend of GotSpots and one of those who had the honor of being there to get her through the death of her beloved pony Presto. I have know the human and the equine since their early days together and have pictures of GS and Spot in my photo album alongside those of my own horses.

Spot was a young horse who (to my knowledge) had never had a fall, yet tragedy struck. GS loved Spot with all her heart, she gave him a quality of care he never would have known if he had remained standing in the field where she found him.

fergie, you are wrong if you think that those of us who disagree with you have never considered the concept of the risk. We consider it with every ride. It is so, so personal.

I have often gotten into the discussion about horses not reaching their "potential", with such and such adult amateur. I own/ride a horse that will probably never use all of the ability god gave him. Some consider this a sin as well. It is the glorious thing about being an American, I can do what is right for me and you can do what is right for you.

I can be a very judgemental person. I spoke with GS today about this very thread and told her that I need to be less so. This weekend GS is going out to compete in her first HT since she lost Spot. Jingles to Kaiti, I hope Fate is kind and shows her the way, whatever that might be.

Perfect Pony
Sep. 9, 2005, 03:54 PM
God it's impossible isn't it!?

GotSpots, I still grieve for Presto http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I know it must be hard on you. I know accidents happen, hell, I know a person who's intermediate level horse killed himself in his stall getting cast... I wont get into how frightened I am now of putting my horse in a stall!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

It's such a hard line to define. I was told by a dressage trainer to tighten my filly's side reins. I did, and she became SO UPSET. Just that little thing got me thinking about what is right and wrong. What if she flipped over while being upset, and killed herself? I know it seems a bit much..but I hope you get my point.

I guess we can just try our hardest to keep people from abusing, without going too far, realizing that if you think about every "might happen" well then, you'd never ride.

But there ARE people that abuse these horses and don't think about their well being past winning, or getting to the top. The only hope is that the more you talk about it, the less it will happen, and the more people will think before they act WHEN THEY KNOW their horse is not 100%.

Carol Ames
Sep. 9, 2005, 04:08 PM
[quote]he question about when horses should retire isn't about how to protect them from the dangers of upper level eventing in general. Rather, it's about assessing when those dangers become more pronounced for an individual horse. And there's no simple formula. Moreover, there are many, many safeguards built into the sport. As you all know, at three day events horses are examined by the veterinary panel three times. Even at horse trials, horses can be spun for lameness and riders eliminated for dangerous riding. Our sport gives experts who directly observe the horses in competition the right and responsibility to advocate for their IOIs this not what we thehuSEA, and previously the h USCTA have been debating fordecades?My first annual meeting was 1983, and, this was then the topic of discussion.welfare

Carol Ames
Sep. 9, 2005, 04:10 PM
[quote]he question about when horses should retire isn't about how to protect them from the dangers of upper level eventing in general. Rather, it's about assessing when those dangers become more pronounced for an individual horse. And there's no simple formula. Moreover, there are many, many safeguards built into the sport. As you all know, at three day events horses are examined by the veterinary panel three times. Even at horse trials, horses can be spun for lameness and riders eliminated for dangerous riding. Our sport gives experts who directly observe the horses in competition the right and responsibility to advocate for their


Is this not what we thehuSEA, and previously the USCTA have been debating for decades?My first annual meeting was 1983, and, this was then the topic of discussion.

Gnep
Sep. 9, 2005, 04:45 PM
Reed,
I know your story and Shiv's. But honestly you should retire him from dressage, its like a crash in X-C, hihihihi. I have no doubt that you two will go advanced, it will be a hellish dressage but an amazing X-C and Stadium, and it will be so much fun to watch how your guy takes you for those fantastic rides.
When I retired my One Eyed Gelding Jester, it was as sad as loosing my Mare. Maybe even more sad, because every time I climbed on Harlekin, he was watching and I could see that desire in his eyes.
It was even worse when we went to shows, he waited at the gate to be loaded, he wanted it so badly. he had lived his complet adult live either to race or to event.
It took 2 years till he excepted his fate.

The question about retirement, is a question only the rider or owner can answer, the same how far we push and how much we risk.
And if something ugly happens, than it is always easy to say I told you so, hindsight is very cheap.

Gry2Yng
Sep. 9, 2005, 04:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">God it's impossible isn't it!? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, it is! And two friends with two horses can go down a road and make two different decisions. Neither is right or wrong, just two friends going down a road...

RunForIt
Sep. 9, 2005, 05:56 PM
quote:
"Yes it is! And two friends with two horses can go down a road and make two different decisions. Neither is right or wrong, just two friends going down a road..."

please, let's end this thread right here...