Kaufman may close slaughterhouse

[onthebit12000]

I thought some of you might like to see how horse slaugher town residents feel about living with a horse slaughter plant in their community!

When will these plants finally get the message that we (most Americans) dont want them here?! What part of we dont want you in our communities and we dont want our horses brutally exploited and slaughtered do these idiots NOT understand?! I for one am sick to death of them "lawyering up" in order to force their dispicable trade upon our country!


http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localn...thorse.1234a6c5.html (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/081705dnmethorse.1234a6c5.html)

Kaufman may close slaughterhouse

Dallas Crown lawyer says horse plant would take legal action


08:27 PM CDT on Tuesday, August 16, 2005


By JIM GETZ / The Dallas Morning News


KAUFMAN – The Dallas Crown horse-slaughtering plant, already the
target of opponents ranging from its neighbors to Congress, now
faces action by a city board that could shut the facility down.

City Council members voted unanimously Monday to turn over to the
city's Zoning Board of Adjustments the question of whether the plant
has violated city nuisance laws. If that panel rules that is the
case, it could order the plant closed.

"I think the community is asking that we not play footsie," council
member Paula Hagler Wampler said, referring to neighbors'
complaints, "and if this is the first council that can do it, so be
it."

If the Board of Adjustments votes at its Sept. 27 meeting to shutter
the plant, Dallas Crown attorney Mark Calabria said Monday, there
would probably be a legal action filed to oppose the closing.

Mr. Calabria did just that a year ago, when the city shut off the
plant's sewer service after it had repeatedly overloaded the city's
wastewater system. District Judge Erleigh Norville ruled that the
plant should continue to operate and ordered both sides into
mediation over wastewater issues. Since then, testing has resumed
and the two sides are edging toward a new sewer permit.

Mr. Calabria also pointed out that an inspection by the Texas
Commission on Environmental Quality found no violations in July, and
that the U.S. Department of Agriculture has an inspector on site
during business hours.

"I think we could get it all worked out in mediation," Mr. Calabria
said. "I think these are problems that can be solved. It's nothing
that's not fixable. It's a never-ending stream of complaints, and it
seems to come from the same small group."

But City Manager Curtis Snow told the council Monday that the
wastewater violations were only one nuisance they could use to
justify referral to the Board of Adjustments.

Other allegations include bad odors, uncovered containers of
byproducts outside the plant, storage of livestock without
sufficient space, trucks driving in the city uncovered and at times
dripping liquids, and a general loss in the quality of life in the
neighborhood. An investigation by Kaufman police in July and early
August found all to be true except the allegations about the trucks.

"The facts of the matter are that even though Dallas Crown does
everything it can to protect the food processing for human
consumption, the company is less diligent about ancillary processes
for the by-products," Mr. Snow wrote in a report. "What the
neighbors are complaining about is Dallas Crown's handling of those
parts of the animals that are not for consumption."

Robert Eldridge, who has argued that his mostly poor, black
neighborhood has been a victim of environmental racism because of
the plant, said Tuesday, "It's a good start. ... Our neighborhood
was very appreciative of their actions. But we're not going to stop.
Next we're going to start working on the people in Washington, so
when it goes away, it goes away for good."

There are two tracks about to proceed in Congress against horse
slaughtering. The first began this summer, when the U.S. House
overwhelmingly approved an amendment to the annual spending bill for
the Agriculture Department to bar money from being spent to inspect
horse-slaughtering operations. It will probably be introduced in the
Senate after Congress returns from recess Sept. 6. But those
spending measures would result in only a one-year ban. A permanent
ban might be introduced in both chambers, also after Sept. 6.

E-mail jgetz@dallasnews.com

[onthebit12000]

I thought some of you might like to see how horse slaugher town residents feel about living with a horse slaughter plant in their community!

When will these plants finally get the message that we (most Americans) dont want them here?! What part of we dont want you in our communities and we dont want our horses brutally exploited and slaughtered do these idiots NOT understand?! I for one am sick to death of them "lawyering up" in order to force their dispicable trade upon our country!


http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localn...thorse.1234a6c5.html (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/081705dnmethorse.1234a6c5.html)

Kaufman may close slaughterhouse

Dallas Crown lawyer says horse plant would take legal action


08:27 PM CDT on Tuesday, August 16, 2005


By JIM GETZ / The Dallas Morning News


KAUFMAN – The Dallas Crown horse-slaughtering plant, already the
target of opponents ranging from its neighbors to Congress, now
faces action by a city board that could shut the facility down.

City Council members voted unanimously Monday to turn over to the
city's Zoning Board of Adjustments the question of whether the plant
has violated city nuisance laws. If that panel rules that is the
case, it could order the plant closed.

"I think the community is asking that we not play footsie," council
member Paula Hagler Wampler said, referring to neighbors'
complaints, "and if this is the first council that can do it, so be
it."

If the Board of Adjustments votes at its Sept. 27 meeting to shutter
the plant, Dallas Crown attorney Mark Calabria said Monday, there
would probably be a legal action filed to oppose the closing.

Mr. Calabria did just that a year ago, when the city shut off the
plant's sewer service after it had repeatedly overloaded the city's
wastewater system. District Judge Erleigh Norville ruled that the
plant should continue to operate and ordered both sides into
mediation over wastewater issues. Since then, testing has resumed
and the two sides are edging toward a new sewer permit.

Mr. Calabria also pointed out that an inspection by the Texas
Commission on Environmental Quality found no violations in July, and
that the U.S. Department of Agriculture has an inspector on site
during business hours.

"I think we could get it all worked out in mediation," Mr. Calabria
said. "I think these are problems that can be solved. It's nothing
that's not fixable. It's a never-ending stream of complaints, and it
seems to come from the same small group."

But City Manager Curtis Snow told the council Monday that the
wastewater violations were only one nuisance they could use to
justify referral to the Board of Adjustments.

Other allegations include bad odors, uncovered containers of
byproducts outside the plant, storage of livestock without
sufficient space, trucks driving in the city uncovered and at times
dripping liquids, and a general loss in the quality of life in the
neighborhood. An investigation by Kaufman police in July and early
August found all to be true except the allegations about the trucks.

"The facts of the matter are that even though Dallas Crown does
everything it can to protect the food processing for human
consumption, the company is less diligent about ancillary processes
for the by-products," Mr. Snow wrote in a report. "What the
neighbors are complaining about is Dallas Crown's handling of those
parts of the animals that are not for consumption."

Robert Eldridge, who has argued that his mostly poor, black
neighborhood has been a victim of environmental racism because of
the plant, said Tuesday, "It's a good start. ... Our neighborhood
was very appreciative of their actions. But we're not going to stop.
Next we're going to start working on the people in Washington, so
when it goes away, it goes away for good."

There are two tracks about to proceed in Congress against horse
slaughtering. The first began this summer, when the U.S. House
overwhelmingly approved an amendment to the annual spending bill for
the Agriculture Department to bar money from being spent to inspect
horse-slaughtering operations. It will probably be introduced in the
Senate after Congress returns from recess Sept. 6. But those
spending measures would result in only a one-year ban. A permanent
ban might be introduced in both chambers, also after Sept. 6.

E-mail jgetz@dallasnews.com

[SafeHorses]

I read about this last night on the Habitat for Horses site. What wonderful news! Just wish these things were acted on more quickly and not held up by "lawyered up" corporations. Isn't there a no slaughter law in Texas that's not being enforced due to a lawsuit?

[onthebit12000]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SafeHorses:
I read about this last night on the Habitat for Horses site. What wonderful news! Just wish these things were acted on more quickly and not held up by "lawyered up" corporations. Isn't there a no slaughter law in Texas that's not being enforced due to a lawsuit? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, there is!

In 2002, John Cornyn then the Attorney General of Texas, handed down a ruling that a long uncovered TX state law prohibited the slaughter of horses for human consumption. It seems that the law always existed (at least since 1949) however, no one realized it was on the books til 2002!

When the Attorney General's office handed down the ruling on the law, both Tarrant County and Kaufman County filed action to close the plants down. The plants filed an injunction (which they were granted) in order to keep running while a federal lawsuit they had also filed was litigated. The lawsuit is based on the plants contention that because they are federally licensed to slaughter horses, the federal law should supercede TX state law.

The final briefs were filed on this case in January of 2003, however the judge hearing the case, has yet to come forward with his decision. So, in the meantime, the plants are running business as usual, violating TX state law and a whole variety of other laws and ordinances.

They have absolutely NO regard for American laws, culture or beliefs. Their response to every attempt to rid our country of their unwanted presence is to "lawyer up"!

[county]

Isn't Federal law an American law?

[onthebit12000]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Isn't Federal law an American law? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, County it is. And they violate our federal laws every day of the week, as well.

[county]

Which ones? If our court system has ruled that a decision has to be made and they operate until then what is being violated? And if there breaking laws and our legal system is doing nothing about it whose fault is that? For or against really isn't the question for this that I can see its more does one beleive in our court system or not?

[county]

I think if one is to be totally honest each side will do what they can with our legal system. If anyone actually beleives that a ruling in favor of the slaughter houses means the anti slaughter groups will say " Oh well we lost were giving up now " I have a bridge to sell them.

[SafeHorses]

I don't disagree county, but if there was one guy in Congress (Goodlatte) and one judge in Texas (don't know the name) who was standing in the way of the pro slaughter crowd, there would be much indignation on that side too.

At the very least you have to acknowledge that the numbers have been on the anti slaughter side...over 200 co-sponsors of last year's bill which would have meant certain victory in the house, yet ONE MAN decided to stop the process.

I am not as familiar with what happened in Texas, but there was a fight in the legislature about the anti slaughter law and it was upheld by the duly elected members of the Texas legislature only to be put aside by one judge who has taken over TWO YEARS to make a decision.

If anyone thinks that some carefully placed corporate money hasn't helped out the pro slaughter side, then I have a bridge to sell as well.

[onthebit12000]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Which ones? If our court system has ruled that a decision has to be made and they operate until then what is being violated? And if there breaking laws and our legal system is doing nothing about it whose fault is that? For or against really isn't the question for this that I can see its more does one beleive in our court system or not? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, we can start with the Humane Slaughter Act and the Humane Transportation of Equines to Slaughter Act. These are two federal laws that the horse slaughter plants routinely violate each and every day.

However, I dont think we can blame this one on the courts. The blame here lies strictly on the bodies who are charged with enforcing these laws, ie..USDA/APHIS. It is pretty difficult to prosecute lawbreakers when no one could be bothered to enforce the laws.

[SafeHorses]

Jerry Finch, the founder of Habitat for Horses, and a leading figure in the fight to end horse slaughter in this country, posted a couple of pictures on his website while he was in Kaufman working with the people there to close Dallas Crown down. The pictures in question aren’t gory, but they really hit home for me and I wanted to share them with you (with his permission, of course). He took the first Sunday of a holding pen at the Dallas Crown facility in Kaufman, TX.

Kaufman on Sunday (http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/mdavis6383/Kaufman004.jpg)
CAPTION: This is what we're fighting against. This is what the anti-slaughter movement is all about. There is no difference between these horses and the horses we have at the ranch and in foster homes. None, except by noon tomorrow, these will all be dead.

The second picture was taken Monday morning while they processed all the horses they had on site:

Kaufman on Monday (http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/mdavis6383/Kaufman020.jpg)
CAPTION: Bloody faces, look alikes for so many horses that I've known. Ten minutes after I took this shot, these horse were screamed at, chased by a man carrying a large whip and disappeared down the final ramp.

These horses look like many of the horses we all own or try to rescue. They are the real faces of those unlucky enough to end up at one of those plants. They aren't old or dying...they all look pretty healthy to me. These pictures have bothered me all week and all of the horses in these pictures were slaughtered Monday in Kaufman. I don't want their deaths to be completely senseless. I want to share them with all of you so that those of you who share my desire to end slaughter can perhaps be motivated to do something very important to help stop the insanity.

Contacting the Congress (http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/)

This link will take you to a webpage that will help you find your Senators and Represenatives and how to contact them. If you want to help, please email the Senators from your state and ask them to vote for the Ensign Amendment this Fall. This amendment is the companion of the Sweeney Amendment that was passed earlier in the summer. These amendments to the 2006 Agricultural Appropriations bills will defund USDA inspectors at slaughterhouses and the borders, thereby shutting down for a year.

Later in the year the drive to pass HR 503 and it's companion Senate bill, the AHSPA (American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act), will begin. These bills will outlaw slaughter on a more permanent basis. Please contact both your Senators and your Representative and ask them to become co-sponsors.

[onthebit12000]

Safehorses,

Thank you for posting those pictures. This is exactly WHY we fight so hard for these horses!

The photos soundly prove that there is NO such thing as the "unwanted" horse or as Tim Cordes (USDA/APHIS)likes to call them.. "unusable" horses.
The slaughter plants use this propaganda in order to fool people into believing that what they do is somehow "necessary". TOTAL B.S.!

Isnt it funny how the number of so-called "unwanted" horses is always equal to whatever the market demand for horsemeat is abroad? Doesnt everyone find this curious?

When the EU demand was for the meat of 350,000 horses, 350,000 were slaughtered. Last year the EU demand was for the meat of 60,000 horses, and 60,000 were slaughtered. This has nothing at all to do with unwanted horses. The horses purchased for their meat were simply offered for sale, and subsequently sold to the highest bidder. If the EU demands 100,000 horses this year, that is what the killers will buy.

BTW, Jerry has some pictures of what the poor folks that live next to Dallas Crown must endure on a daily basis. Perhaps you could ask him for those and post the links here. I have access to the photos, but I am techno-challenged and do not know how to properly link them in.

[equinelaundry]

I've seen the videos and pics of the horses hanging and bleeding out but the picture of that grey horse is haunting. What a helpless feeling at this moment. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif The chestnut to his right is (sorry, make that WAS)breathtakingly beautiful...look at that neck. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

May we finish out this year with the truth coming out.

[fernie fox]

Please post more pictures like these,they are VERY important,those are young healthy horses,that should have a long useful life.

No sign of old and debiltated horses there in those shots.

Please post more up to date pictures from the slaughter houses.

People need to see for them selves the type of lovely animals going through this disgusting process.

Thank you fOr posting these pics.HEARTWRENCHING AS IT IS.

[LostFarmer]

I helped my daughter deliver her 4-H hog project to the packing plant yesterday. I can assure you that all the animals at the plant looked healthy. I guess I shold post a picture of that.

The way to stop the slaughter houses is to stop the supply. As long as we have breeders that breed anything that will catch there will be slaughter. Until then it is a necessary part of the livestock process.

[SafeHorses]

LostFarmer...the pro slaughter crowd likes to justify the Dallas Crowns of the world by stating that they take care of the old, sick horses that need to be euthanized. These pictures put the lie to that justification.

[onthebit12000]

More haunting than the gray horse, are the endless number of shipper certificates we have acquired that have the DOA's listed on them.

How horrible does the lack of concern and compassion have to be that a percentage of these horses are dead upon arrival at these plants? How come the USDA doesnt ENFORCE the existing laws that are "supposed" to protect horses? Answer...they couldnt be bothered.

Time and time again I hear the pro-slaughter camp state that we just need to enact better laws...to make it "more humane" etc, etc...
To this I say, we already have these laws!!!!!!!! None of the bodies who are charged with enforcing these laws gives a rats hiney about enforcing them!! No of them ever will.

This story is a classic USDA non-enforcement..

Tim Cordes reported that not too long ago, 5 horses had to be "sent to the head of the line" upon arrival at Cavel, so horrific were the injuries they sustained during transport.

He went on to say that the horses involved were horses brought in from a "notorious" Canadian supplier and that even the people at Cavel are sickened by this guy. Of course, we have already had a run in with Mr. Irvine when we rescued Montana from one of his loads this past May. Not to mention the shipper certificates we have with his DOA's on them!

At any rate, the shocker here, beyond the fact that the 5 horses arrived at the plant in such a horrific state and were sent "to the head of the line" rather than being humanely euthanized as is required by law, is that according to Mr. Cordes, the Canadian shipper cannot be prosecuted because he is not a US citizen.

HUH????? WHAT the HECK is this guy talking about????? Excuse me, but does that then mean that any non-USA citizen can come into this country and not have to abide by any US law?
So evidently, if you were to listen to the law as reported by Mr. Cordes, these truckers could essentially drive 90++ miles per hour,be drunk and kill someone and they would be immune from prosecution because they are "exempt" from US laws??

This is the kind of B.S. we hear from these people all the time. The USDA has fined one individual $500.00 for transport reg violations this year. PUH-LEEZE!!!

Even one of the better USDA inspectors on duty at Cavel is disgusted by the whole lack of enforcement. However, he is apparantly not disgusted enough to blow the whistle on all the many violations he has witnessed. Im still hoping and praying that one day he will come forward (I feel he is a good man who does have a conscience and good sense of distinguishing right from wrong)and blow that whistle on all the horrific cruelties he has witnessed.

Any USDA inspector out there who would actually care to stand up and make a difference and bring these perpetrators to justice, should contact us at the NHPC. We can provide whistleblower protection under the direct supervision of Congressman Whitfield or any of the anti horse slaughter bill sponsors.

[War Admiral]

LostFarmer, I understand that you are coming to this from an agricultural perspective, but don't you think our throwaway culture and lack of responsibility toward the equines we breed and compete may enter into the picture as well?

[Wild Oaks Farm]

Well how about an opinion from someone who lives in Kaufman County (me)? Dallas Crown is right off of 175, a MAJOR highway. It is disgusting. I don't know about the actual cleanliness of it, I just mean the fact that I have to drive by it everyday and see horses who are about to DIE standing around awaiting their deaths. I have to pass it anytime I want to drive into Dallas. I have to pass it if I want to go to the tack store or take my horses to a show. You can see the horses outside and it is very hard to look at (I only actually turned my head and really looked at it once...when I realized that you could see the horses outside, some of them with their heads up looking around the unfamiliar surroundings, it made me so sad, I have made a point NOT to look at it since).

It is really sad that an animal can live a life of servitude and benefit human beings so greatly, only to be thrown away and die an undignified, undeserved death. People need to take some responsibility and not just "get rid of" horses because they have an issue or are no longer needed. I have a barn full of older horses that I will never sell because, quite frankly, Dallas Crown is right down the street and it is very possible that one of them could end up there. This is especially true because they are older and have soundness issues. I feel like owners have an obligation to find their horses the best situations possible when they sell a horse, and pass over new homes that might not be good matches. We can at least do that for them. There are auctions out here ALL THE TIME and who knows how many of those horses end up at the slaughterhouse. Young and healthy included. It's so sad.

Well anyway, just wanted to let everybody know that is important to get this thing closed and I am glad it has become so public!

[county]

How is any of this diiferant for cattle, hogs, etc.? And how does breeding make it the problem? The reason thweres any business is demand and profit, take away either one and theres no business its basic economics.

[county]

In the early 90's there were right at 6 million horses and we slaughered 350,000. Today theres right at 9 million horses and we slaugher right at 60,000. If breeding is the reason behind slaughter why the decrease in the kill numbers?

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
How is any of this diiferant for cattle, hogs, etc.? And how does breeding make it the problem? The reason thweres any business is demand and profit, take away either one and theres no business its basic economics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cattle and hogs are livestock. They don't often have a bond with humans. Dogs and cats are generally pets and interact with humans. In order for a horse to be a successfull working animal he must form a relationship with his handler, like a working dog. The trust a horse will place in its handler is truly amazing. He will do things for us that are totally against his nature, like loading into a trailer or jumping a pile of sticks that he could easily go around, often where he can't even see a landing. IMHO it is a betrayal of this trust to slaughter him. Polls have shown that most Americans feel the same way.
I breed sheep and goats and occasionally horses. I eat sheep and goats, but when my horses are to old to live comfortable I don't send them to slaughter.

[county]

Polls have shown almost evweryone wants to pay less income taxes but thats not happening either. Horses are not pets to everyone and if someone doesn't want to slaughter their horse thats there right. Those rights work both ways.

[county]

I find it sad that anyone can write of a species of animals and not care if there treated in a way that some feel is torture. No differant IMO then how Hitler felt about Jews and others. Livestock has no bond with people? Only if you choose that way. I've owned cattle, hogs, and sheep that had very obvious bonds with people.

[LostFarmer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Cattle and hogs are livestock. They don't often have a bond with humans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I laugh in your general direction. Pigs have been shown to be one of the smartest animals. Cattle are smart as well. Train a cow once and she will remember it forever.

About every 5 to 10 years a cow will come along that I give a forever home to. I don't see a reason to think every horse that is out there needs a forever home. One of my ponies has that home and 2 don't. That is just the cold hard facts of living on a real farm.

[Daydream Believer]

God...the pro slaughter folks sure do jump quick to point out how lovable and darling pigs and cows can be too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think Carol was talking in general...not about the occasional cow or pig someone makes as a pet. In general most pigs and cows are bred for meat or in the case of cows, milk and then meat...horses are not. We handle horses differently from the beginning, as foals, with the expectation that they will become animals that are our working partners. Most people don't intentionally form bonds with pigs and cows they intend to send to slaughter. I know when we raised pigs at home as a kid, we did not since we knew they would not be around long and there was no point in getting attached to them. Our ponies though were our pets just like our dogs and cats.

So, LOST FARMER...a "real farm" is one that sends it horses to slaughter as well as it's pigs and cows? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I don't think so! I have 9 horses out there and another 7 coming in this fall from out west as training and resale prospects...I think that qualifies as a "real" farm and I run it as a business. I don't intend to ever see one of those horses go to a nasty death in a slaughterhouse if I can ever help it if that means buying one of them back to save it from someone like you or county, I will. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[LostFarmer]

Don't ASSUME I am pro slaughter. I see all animals as livestock. Horse, dogs, cats, pigs, cattle, sheep, goats, and the list goes on. All are livestock in my world. I have a neighbor that sees all animals as pets. Is one right and one wrong? Different set of rose colored goggles is all.

If you want to keep your horses forever, fine your choice. If I want to sent mine to the kill pen my choice. I will bet dollars to donuts that most of the anti-slaughter people would have a royal fit if abortion was abolished. Why it is a womans right to choose to have an abortion different than to send my horse to the kill pen? Generally speaking, (not rape) abortions are performed after a night of indescretion. Some horses are bought on a whim then reality sets in and they are shipped.

Again don't assume how I personally feel about slaughter but open your eyes to a different perspective.

[Susan P]

I am pro life and anti slaughter.

You can't assume anything about people ideas, we are such individuals, we may agree on one idea while disagree on another. You can PT me for my reasons. On this board I am in the minority on most of my opinions and values. I can read the reaction people get when they voice their opinions. I can read where people stand on non horse issues. It's hard to fit anyone into a hole, we are all square pegs.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LostFarmer:
Don't ASSUME I am pro slaughter. I see all animals as livestock. Horse, dogs, cats, pigs, cattle, sheep, goats, and the list goes on. All are livestock in my world. I have a neighbor that sees all animals as pets. Is one right and one wrong? Different set of rose colored goggles is all.

If you want to keep your horses forever, fine your choice. If I want to sent mine to the kill pen my choice. I will bet dollars to donuts that most of the anti-slaughter people would have a royal fit if abortion was abolished. Why it is a womans right to choose to have an abortion different than to send my horse to the kill pen? Generally speaking, (not rape) abortions are performed after a night of indescretion. Some horse are bought on a whim then reality sets in and they are shipped.

Again don't assume how I personally feel about slaughter but open your eyes to a different perspective. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[gray17htb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The second picture was taken Monday morning while they processed all the horses they had on site:

Kaufman on Monday </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the only one I clicked on. Take a good look at these horses... These are our pets! People...WAKE UP http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I find it sad that anyone can write of a species of animals and not care if there treated in a way that some feel is torture. No differant IMO then how Hitler felt about Jews and others. Livestock has no bond with people? Only if you choose that way. I've owned cattle, hogs, and sheep that had very obvious bonds with people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I said OFTEN. I think fewer people bond with pigs than horses.

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LostFarmer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Cattle and hogs are livestock. They don't often have a bond with humans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I laugh in your general direction. Pigs have been shown to be one of the smartest animals. Cattle are smart as well. Train a cow once and she will remember it forever.

About every 5 to 10 years a cow will come along that I give a forever home to. I don't see a reason to think every horse that is out there needs a forever home. One of my ponies has that home and 2 don't. That is just the cold hard facts of living on a real farm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I also live on a farm and raise sheep, goats and horses. Please note that I said cows and hogs don't OFTEN have bonds with humans. Not NEVER. And I didn't said they couldn't, wouldn't or shouldn't. I had a sheep who would come when called and loved a scratch on the head.
Most Americans are against eating horses and dogs and cats because they are considered to be companion animals.

[Daydream Believer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LostFarmer:
Don't ASSUME I am pro slaughter.

Again don't assume how I personally feel about slaughter but open your eyes to a different perspective. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You said yourself that "a real farm" only gives "forever homes" to certain pets/livestock and certainly indicated that others are sent packing to whatever fate awaits them...

I certainly see your perspective in that making money is more important to some folks than the animals fate or suffering but don't think that just because some of us don't want to see any horse we bred or sold go to brutal death by slaughter that we are not "real" farmers or horsepeople or whatever. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif No one should have the right to abuse horses the way they are abused just for the sake of serving them on someone's dinner table in some foreign country. No one will starve tomorrow if horses are not longer slaughtered for meat in this country...they are hardly a staple in anyone's diet but rather a very expensive delicacy meat.

Let's just keep abortion out of the discussion. It really has no place on a horse board. For the record though I am pro life.

[Lildunhorse]

All animals are capable of forming bonds with people.
All animals are capable of trusting people.
All animals feel pain and fear.
If animals must be killed, it must be with compassion and concern for each animal. I don't believe the slaughterhouses offer that option and especially not for horses. The slaughterplants are not designed for horses.

[LostFarmer]

In order to be a real farm, you must make a profit at some point. At least the IRS sees it that way. In order to make a profit, you must sell a good or a service. Any "farm" that never sells an animal is either a dirt farmer or a hobby (not for profit) farmer.

I agree the shipping and packing plant processes may need changing. Humane and clean should be required.

[jetsmom]

Lost Farmer- A farm that needs to sell a horse for 300.00 or so to slaughter, and is relying on that in order to show a profit is lacking something in business accumen. Perhaps a new business plan or new line of work is in order if they are running on that tight of a profit margin. Donation, retraining or Euthanasia should be budgeted into a business plan for those animals that are either dangerous, crippled or unsuitable for breeding. The only reason for sending a horse to slaughter is greed or laziness.

[county]

I know many places that will make a profit even if they don't sell old mares to slaughter and its not greed or laziness its business. No differant then selling a cull cow that no longer milks or raises a calf. Not everyone chooses to kill an animal just to kill it when its done serving its purpose. And thats not a bad thing.

Bottom line is if someone eats meat, buys leather or any other product made from slaughtered animals there the ones who support it. Without the money they spend there is no slaughter

[county]

There a byproduct, it would be like the sawmills around here burning there sawdust and shavings rather then sell them for horse bedding. The mills won't go broke if they butn them but why would you throw away a byproduct that can be sold?

[Daydream Believer]

The difference between you and me county is that I don't see my old broodmares as "byproducts" but as old friends that have served me well. I do not ever expect to make that last $300 on them when they need to be retired or cannot bear foals any longer...I will instead turn them out for a well earned retirement or have them euthanized humanely. Not everyone who is in farming horses for profit is out to rake every last buck out of their stock.

[Lildunhorse]

Because having them put down quietly and disposed of, or killing them yourself is more humane, if you can do it properly.
I prefer my own well-placed bullet over a stranger with an ineffective aim and a quota.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
The mills won't go broke if they butn them but why would you throw away a byproduct that can be sold? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

You are 100% right not evryone sees things the same way nor should they. I'm not saying anyone should do anything a certain way. Never have never will. I will accept no less.

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
&lt;SNIP&gt;


Bottom line is if someone eats meat, buys leather or any other product made from slaughtered animals there the ones who support it. Without the money they spend there is no slaughter </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think most of us differentiate between cows and horses. You may call it a double standard.

[Lildunhorse]

The profit being made by foreign companies. How does this profit us?
Horse slaughter doesn't not profit me. It takes away from my quality of life.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
How is any of this diiferant for cattle, hogs, etc.? And how does breeding make it the problem? The reason thweres any business is demand and profit, take away either one and theres no business its basic economics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

How does any export and import business profit us. The U.S. has more business in other countries then the rest of the world combined. Theres people around the world who feel as you do about us.

[Lildunhorse]

County, how much of the horse slaughter industry by-product makes it into the system? I don't mean rendering, either.
If horse slaughter were to disappear tomorrow, how much of an impact would it have, really?
You say that we encourage slaughter by supporting it, but how much of the HORSE slaughter industry do Americans support? Let me qualify that by not including those that profit by selling to the slaughter industry directly.

[Lildunhorse]

I understand that.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
How does any export and import business profit us. The U.S. has more business in other countries then the rest of the world combined. Theres people around the world who feel as you do about us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

Meat and leather is it besides hooves. Pretty much same as beef. But if those who think that any slaughter system is cruel and inhumane why for one species but not the other? How does one justify it OK to say be cruel and inhumane to cattle, eat the meat, use leather but not OK for another species? Cruel and inhumane is just that there are no differances to the animal be it a horse or a goat

[Lildunhorse]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I think I spoke to that in a previous post.
I can only take on one cause at a time, so for now I'm concentrating my efforts on horse slaughter (and suffering for it) because horses are not considered food animals here. Slaughter facilities are not set up for horses; horses are not listed on any of the USDA market reports; we have to go waaaay out of our way to get slaughter stats and prices; the business is just too secretive. When my local auction house lies to me, when I call Bouvry and get put on hold forever, when a neighbor's horse is swindled out of his possesion and sent to slaughter, resulting in my neighbor's heartbreak because he never expected it, when little girls' cherished ponies are stolen out of their stable at night and sent to slaughter by a vindictive relative...that's tells me it's ok to concentrate on horse slaughter.
My father never let any of us get attached to any animal that he knew was intended for food. We, and he, were always very attached to our horses, as we were raised to believe they were companion animals, working animals, but never food animals.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Meat and leather is it besides hooves. Pretty much same as beef. But if those who think that any slaughter system is cruel and inhumane why for one species but not the other? How does one justify it OK to say be cruel and inhumane to cattle, eat the meat, use leather but not OK for another species? Cruel and inhumane is just that there are no differances to the animal be it a horse or a goat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Meat and leather is it besides hooves. Pretty much same as beef. But if those who think that any slaughter system is cruel and inhumane why for one species but not the other? How does one justify it OK to say be cruel and inhumane to cattle, eat the meat, use leather but not OK for another species? Cruel and inhumane is just that there are no differances to the animal be it a horse or a goat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen horse leather products before...I never buy them. In fact, my leather buying is way down and basically just shoes...and even that is down from years past.

I also buy certified humane meat. Living in California, the best place I've found to buy it is at Whole Foods. I do believe that if I only buy from these people, and convince my friends and family to do the same, then I am sending the best message I can to the meat industry that I will not reward those companies who violate the Humane Slaughter Act and put profit ahead of what is right.

I am against horse slaughter for reasons that others have stated very well upthread. I consider them pets and would no sooner condone their slaughter than I would slaughter of cats and dogs.

[county]

And what you think and feel, how you were raised is all well and fine. But not everyone feels and was raised that way. What makes you better then they are? Your certainly entitled to your opinions. Why isn't the rest of the world?

[gray17htb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Meat and leather is it besides hooves. Pretty much same as beef. But if those who think that any slaughter system is cruel and inhumane why for one species but not the other? How does one justify it OK to say be cruel and inhumane to cattle, eat the meat, use leather but not OK for another species? Cruel and inhumane is just that there are no differances to the animal be it a horse or a goat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The bottom line here is we are discussing HORSE slaughter , not other species! We are not here to compare slaughtering techniques between species. We are on a HORSE forum. We love horses and we will do what ever it takes to make sure that no horse suffers and is treated badly. These are our best friends, our pets, our lives. If you want to discuss swine and cattle inhumane slaughter...go to that forum! GEEZ!

[Lildunhorse]

Never have I said that people weren't entitled to their opinions. I simply answered a question that you asked of me. I explained why I thought horse slaughter was different from the slaughter of other animals. If you don't like my answer, don't accuse me of thinking I'm better than anyone, or that I don't believe other people are entitled to their opinions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
And what you think and feel, how you were raised is all well and fine. But not everyone feels and was raised that way. What makes you better then they are? Your certainly entitled to your opinions. Why isn't the rest of the world? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Lildunhorse]

Safehorses, I have a great deal of respect for people who walk the talk. Thanks!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SafeHorses:
I also buy certified humane meat. Living in California, the best place I've found to buy it is at Whole Foods. I do believe that if I only buy from these people, and convince my friends and family to do the same, then I am sending the best message I can to the meat industry that I will not reward those companies who violate the Humane Slaughter Act and put profit ahead of what is right.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Susan P]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daydream Believer:
God...the pro slaughter folks sure do jump quick to point out how lovable and darling pigs and cows can be too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but I'd like to see them do a dressage test with their pig or a cross country course with their cow. You know it's not really true that the cow jumped over the moon. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Susan P]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daydream Believer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LostFarmer:
Don't ASSUME I am pro slaughter.

Again don't assume how I personally feel about slaughter but open your eyes to a different perspective. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Let's just keep abortion out of the discussion. It really has no place on a horse board. For the record though I am pro life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that's a great idea, I've seen these off the horse topic subjects come up and I think it's a slippery slope. I didn't bring it up but countered the original statement as a rebuttal. I agree, let's not go there, it just throws the subject at hand off.

[Susan P]

Agreed so visit http://certifiedhumane.org/ and let's all look for compassionate alternatives. And also http://matthewscully.com/

These web sites are eye openers unless you prefer to remain in the dark please visit the web sites.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lildunhorse:
All animals are capable of forming bonds with people.
All animals are capable of trusting people.
All animals feel pain and fear.
If animals must be killed, it must be with compassion and concern for each animal. I don't believe the slaughterhouses offer that option and especially not for horses. The slaughterplants are not designed for horses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Susan P]

Just because somebody wants to do something and it's their opinion doesn't justify allowing them to do it.

That's why they sentenced the BTK killer to 10 consecutive life terms today. Society didn't approve of him killing people and found it especially distateful how he did it. He started out doing this to dogs first. Slaughterhouses are full of this type of person.

[LostFarmer]

My kids 9, 7, and 5 raised pigs for sale this year. They raised them knowing the end result. Didn't make it easier. Maybe we need to change the mindset with horses. We know the when we buy a horse that the last stop is the kill pen.

Like I said before I have a horse that has a forever home so I do understand not wanting to let them go.

[county]

Slaughter houses are full of that type of person? Care to show me, the onmes I've worked at are full of normal everyday people. Some are scout leaders, some are 4-H leaders, some are deacons at church. They work a job to support their families just like everyone else.

As far as bringing up cats, dogs, pigs, etc. I'm not the one that brought that subject up.

[gray17htb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LostFarmer:
My kids 9, 7, and 5 raised pigs for sale this year. They raised them knowing the end result. Didn't make it easier. Maybe we need to change the mindset with horses. We know the when we buy a horse that the last stop is the kill pen.

Like I said before I have a horse that has a forever home so I do understand not wanting to let them go. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is where you may be a little confused, the last stop for a horse is NOT the kill pen. Equines, are not Bovines or Swine. They are not bred and raised intended for human consumtion. Especially in this country. Do you reside in the U.S.? If you do , you would know that. If you can't pull $150 out of your pocket to euthanize your horse , than you shouldn't own one.

[Lildunhorse]

The last stop doesn't have to be the kill pen, does it?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LostFarmer:
We know the when we buy a horse that the last stop is the kill pen.

Like I said before I have a horse that has a forever home so I do understand not wanting to let them go. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

I have a question. What makes opinions like the last couple better then others? It seems like alot of anti slaughter people have a holyier then thou attitude and can't handle someones opinion being differant. Personally I think anyone that would kill a horse just to kill it is rather disgusting but I'm not going to tell them they should never own a horse. Exactly what makes them think there better then someone else?

[jetsmom]

County- It is possible to humanely euthanize a horse so that they don't experience any fear/pain. It can be done at home in familiar surroundings. A horse going to slaughter tends to be run through an auction, transported for long distances and are guaranteed of feeling extreme fear as they go up the ramp to be stunned. Even if the stun bolt works properly (and it doesn't always), the horse will feel extreme fear. That's not to mention that prior to that you have long periods of no food/water/housed with unfamiliar /aggressive horses/cramped trailer rides/etc.
There is a HUGE difference between slaughter and Euthanasia.

[gray17htb]

Slaughter is not a humane way to "kill" your horse. We are not talking about people killing horses just to kill them. We are talking about people sending horses off to slaughter where they will be tortured, not fed/watered, just to stick $300 bucks in their pocket, verses an owner just euthanizing the horse in a humane way. I think that as an owner ,YOU are responsible for the well being of your horse. Think about it for a minute. Do you REALLY think that this is the best possible way to end the life of your horse?

[county]

I'm very aware its possable thats what I do with my pets. With livestock I don't. My guess is the majority of people support slaughter if they didn't they wouldn't buy anything that comes out of slaughter plants. If you buy anything that does and feel slaughter is a problem then your part of that problem.

[LostFarmer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you can't pull $150 out of your pocket to euthanize your horse , than you shouldn't own one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not the point. Is it better to euthanize a horse and let the body rot in a landfill or behind the barn than to utilize the meat? I believe in reuse and waste not. To kill and not use is wastefull and absolutley wrong.

I have yet to say that I am pro-slaughter. I am trying to show that this issue is not as simple as black-white, good-bad, nice-mean.

[county]

Not everyone looks at everything the same way. Yep I sell livestock to put money in my pocket. Why do you have a job?

[gray17htb]

Once again, we are talking about horse slaughter here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[LostFarmer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Equines, are not Bovines or Swine. They are not bred and raised intended for human consumtion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not?

[FLAbreds]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
And what you think and feel, how you were raised is all well and fine. But not everyone feels and was raised that way. What makes you better then they are? Your certainly entitled to your opinions. Why isn't the rest of the world? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

county, you're getting a chance to voice your opinions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif NO ONE on here is denying you that. NO ONE on here is saying their opinion is better than yours either. Brings to mind that tired saying "agree to disagree!"

Geez....must be slow over at the Horseman's Forum, eh?

[Lildunhorse]

Why would you not feel compelled to intervene if someone killed a horse "just to kill it"? Doesn't that tell you that that particular human being is lacking in something very important, like respect for life, or maybe even just a little compassion?
You are upset because people are sounding like they're better than anyone else, but what about a person that kills something just to kill it? Doesn't that mean that they think they are superior in some way, that they can justify killing an innocent creature just because they can?
Live and let live is one thing, but live and let kill for no good reason is quite another. In that case, it's very possible the superior attitude doesn't stop with animals. I work in the criminal justice system as a Victim's Advocate. Quite often, this lact of respect for living beings starts with animals and culminates in violence against humans.
And I am not implying that people that send animals to slaughter turn into batterers. I'm saying that complacency is very, very dangerous.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I have a question. What makes opinions like the last couple better then others? It seems like alot of anti slaughter people have a holyier then thou attitude and can't handle someones opinion being differant. Personally I think anyone that would kill a horse just to kill it is rather disgusting but I'm not going to tell them they should never own a horse. Exactly what makes them think there better then someone else? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

Theres been a number of people that have brought up ther types of slaughter. But for me I sell my livestock for the most money I can. Retired mares bring the most if there saddle broke but if there not next is meat. To me to just kill them, dig a hole and bury them is disgusting and vile. That to me is killing just because I would want them dead. Injured, crippled, sick I can see theres not much else to do with them. But just because I no longer want the horse. Disgusting

[gray17htb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LostFarmer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you can't pull $150 out of your pocket to euthanize your horse , than you shouldn't own one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not the point. Is it better to euthanize a horse and let the body rot in a landfill or behind the barn than to utilize the meat? I believe in reuse and waste not. To kill and not use is wastefull and absolutley wrong.

I have yet to say that I am pro-slaughter. I am trying to show that this issue is not as simple as black-white, good-bad, nice-mean. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is the point. I have never in my life seen someone leave their horses dead body to rot behind the barn. It either gets buried or RENDERED...the second choice might be good for you. It is the best of both worlds.The horse gets euthanized humanely , then gets removed from your property and is used(not wasted , as you say)The key here is to euthanize your horse humanely. Talk to your vet and they will give options.

[olehorsegal]

I have been looking at the slaughter issue long and hard for several years. Unfortunately with our disposable horse industry - horses have to die. Horses are bred, foaled, started too early and break down too early - then what??? Horses are bred in this country by the tens of thousands and yet farm land and trails and arenas are being eaten up by suburanization - but we continue to breed. The numbers of American slaughtered horses are terribly misleading as they do not account for the numbers of live animals being shipped overseas or to Canada for slaughter - so don't let them fool you into acceptance. The problem is what do we do with the excess horses we breed? We can't euthanize and render - the rendering plants are at full capacity. We can't bury them - not enough land. We, as horse people have to take responsibility. The registries, the sport associations - are all at fault here. If we didn't have to have speed, frame, spinning etc...at age two - our horses could live longer, more comfortable lives with ONE owner. Think of how many horses some of us have been through do to this or that. We trade them like cars - it's a ridiculous mentality.

[county]

Actually flabreds if you've read the posts you'll find a number of people have said I should have no right to do what I do. That I have no right to slaughter. I've yet to tell anyone they should do so though. Seems like a double standard.

[county]

The rendering plants are at full capacity? Not here, there not even close.

[Lildunhorse]

I have a job so that I can buy hay, oats and carrots for my horses, pay their vet bills, pay their farrier bills, pay for my riding lessons, and pay for their training.
Whatever is left over is mine. :-)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Not everyone looks at everything the same way. Yep I sell livestock to put money in my pocket. Why do you have a job? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

If slaughter of animals is caused by breeding then theres been to many since the dawn of time thats when we started eating them.

I think slaughter exists because theres a demand for meat. If no one ate meat do you think there would still be slaughrter for it regardless of how many there are?

[county]

Lildunhorse, thats the exact reason I have a job selling livestock.

[FLAbreds]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Theres been a number of people that have brought up ther types of slaughter. But for me I sell my livestock for the most money I can. Retired mares bring the most if there saddle broke but if there not next is meat. To me to just kill them, dig a hole and bury them is disgusting and vile. That to me is killing just because I would want them dead. Injured, crippled, sick I can see theres not much else to do with them. But just because I no longer want the horse. Disgusting </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what you're saying is you'd rather make a buck on an old, used up broodmare by sending her to slaughter.

I know I don't breed anything that doesn't have this combination: Solid show/race record, pedigree, conformation, temperment. If I had a mare that wasn't backed because of an injury but she had a fabulous pedigree I would consider breeding her but all my mares are saddle broke (one is even related to Smarty Jones). Would I EVER cast off that mare after I "used" her up? HELL NO! Would I retire her on the farm and let her live out her days? HELL YES! Probably because with my horse business, I have that luxury.

[montanamanda]

I believe in reuse and waste not. To kill and not use is wastefull and absolutley wrong.

Hasn't the horse been used enough by this point?? It is going to decompose in the ground and fertilise whatever grows over it. I don't see where not allowing Europeans and Japanese to eat our horses is wrong.

[county]

And you have every right to do that and I'd never say you don't. For my pets I do the same, for my livestock I sell them and pay my bills.

[FLAbreds]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Actually flabreds if you've read the posts you'll find a number of people have said I should have no right to do what I do. That I have no right to slaughter. I've yet to tell anyone they should do so though. Seems like a double standard. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't get that from any of the posts here.

[gray17htb]

Rendering plants are not full here either.
Hey County...good to know we actually agree on something http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Actually flabreds if you've read the posts you'll find a number of people have said I should have no right to do what I do. That I have no right to slaughter. I've yet to tell anyone they should do so though. Seems like a double standard. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you find yourself on the losing end of the subject and it doesn't seem fair. I say "losing" to mean that the anti slaughter movement has been gaining momentum for years. I think it's only a matter of time until HR 503, or another bill very much like it, gets passed. I for one think it's unfair the way things are now. The sooner the horse slaughter industry is shut down, the fewer horse will die in such a brutal way. I guess it's all in one's perspective.

[county]

I don't really see it as winning or losing just two differant veiws of life. If the laws are changed then so be it life and business go on and you make changes accordingly just like anything else. But in the meantime I'm not going to allow someone to tell me what I should do any more then someone else would allow me to tell them what to do.

[Lildunhorse]

Now I'm really confused. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif
You would send them to slaughter just because you no longer want them, but euthanizing them is disgusting? What am I missing here?
Does having someone eat them make the slaughter option less disgusting? Do you suppose those people would starve to death if they didn't have your horse to eat?
Do you think those people are thankful for the sacrifice you've made to them? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Theres been a number of people that have brought up ther types of slaughter. But for me I sell my livestock for the most money I can. Retired mares bring the most if there saddle broke but if there not next is meat. To me to just kill them, dig a hole and bury them is disgusting and vile. That to me is killing just because I would want them dead. Injured, crippled, sick I can see theres not much else to do with them. But just because I no longer want the horse. Disgusting </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[FLAbreds]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
And you have every right to do that and I'd never say you don't. For my pets I do the same, for my livestock I sell them and pay my bills. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I sell, too, just not often but when I do I always sell with a contract and first right or refusal.

Besides, I seem to take in and place more OTTBs now. Just doing my part.

[olehorsegal]

The problem with slaughter in my mind is not actually death - but the abuse and fear that goes with it. I would rather shoot my old friend in the head and leave him for bear bait. County - where are you & how do you know what your rendering plant's capabilities are? Where I am there are soooo many unwanted animals and road kill that they really only take a limited number of horses. If somebody compares horses to sheep, hogs and cattle again I will freak. Sheep, hogs and cattle did not lead us into battles, settle the west, or be our main source of transporatation for hundreds of years. They did not become our companions. Don't get me wrong - I feel for the pigs and cows - but certainly not the sheep http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifI have BIG problems with eating dogs and cats too. If horses were not so caring for their foals and each other in their bands, save our lives when trying to do stupid things in the mountains, or get clearly upset at the smell of blood - we would probably feel differently. I have done some dumb stuff in my life with horses - but I will always fight for slaughter and complain to people who insist on breeding unwanted and unwarrented horses.

[LostFarmer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It either gets buried or RENDERED...the second choice might be good for you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lets not get personal. I have yet to attack anyone for their comments.

What is the difference between rotting behind the barn and rotting in the ground? Maggots get them either way. Rendering is not an option. It is 90 miles to the nearest plant IF they have room.

Guess it really boils down to is a horse a pet or livestock. In my world they are livestock... Unless they become pets. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[county]

To me slaughter serves a purpose of providing food. Killing one just because one no longer wants it serves nothing.

[olehorsegal]

Oh man did I say fight for slaugher - that should be against slaughter!!!! I urge anyone who hasn't - go to your local livestock auction when they sell horses and watch how the traders and meat buyers treat those horses before and after purchase. Or go to your TB sales and watch all the broodmares get loaded into the killer's stock trailer - it's the absolute worst sight ever!

[county]

As i've said I'm in central Mn. the largest rendering plant in the upper midwest is 17 miles from here. They pick up livestock and remains in Mn. the Dakotas, Wi. and Iowa. Also haul semi loads of feathers, blood, and remains from poultry, cattle, and hog slaughter plants. I've worked there part time off and on over the years. There not close to capacity.

[gray17htb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LostFarmer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It either gets buried or RENDERED...the second choice might be good for you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lets not get personal. I have yet to attack anyone for their comments.

What is the difference between rotting behind the barn and rotting in the ground? Maggots get them either way. Rendering is not an option. It is 90 miles to the nearest plant IF they have room.

Guess it really boils down to is a horse a pet or livestock. In my world they are livestock... Unless they become pets. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't mean to offend you. I just wanted you to know about an option that you may not have been aware of. This seems to be an option that would suit your needs.

[Lildunhorse]

I don't remember anyone saying they thought that was a good idea. I guess it's nap time for me, because I'm not tracking well, apparently.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
To me slaughter serves a purpose of providing food. Killing one just because one no longer wants it serves nothing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[LostFarmer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sheep, hogs and cattle did not lead us into battles, settle the west, or be our main source of transporatation for hundreds of years </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ever read the stories of the Oregon and Mormon trails. Not many horses but a bunch of oxen. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[montanamanda]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Killing one just because one no longer wants it serves nothing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It serves the horse. He gets a gentle death compared to the horrors of the slaughter system. Can't the horse's needs be put first at this time? Why must we eat everything that is non human? I don't see anyone here in the USA starving to death, in fact we are dying of over eating. The starving will never be the ones eating our horses, it is the wealthy Europeans and Japanese that will. How noble an end is that??

[county]

Actually theres been a number of people here and on other threads that say if I don't want a mare any more it should be killed rather then sold if it goes to slaughter. Like I said I find killing for the sake of killing a digusting act

[county]

Noble? Tell that to the other species that get eaten they have the same end as the horse. I'm not into beleiving one should be above the others. There either pets or livestock to me.

[montanamanda]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by county:
Noble? Tell that to the other species that get eaten they have the same end as the horse.

Cows, pigs, and chickens are bred and raised for slaughter, horses are not. That is the difference. It is illegal to sell horse meat in this country. Not cows, pigs and chickens.

[LostFarmer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Didn't mean to offend you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And you didn't. I just forgot to put a http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif on my post.

I have actually enjoied this debate. Glad it didn't turn into a blood letting. Mostly mine and country's.

[olehorsegal]

In my mind - I want to end the suffering and the slaughter actually prolongs it. Unless we have a slaughter plant in every state & county - there will be needless suffering in terms of transportation and standing in the feed lots. What's wrong with euthanasia? It's quick, quiet, ends the suffering and it's affordable. The other option for me would be to donate the animal to a wild animal preserve to be killed for large cat consumption. I used to work at a large cat facility, we treated the donated horses very well and they died quickly and without any suffering. Good to hear the midwest rendering plants have room for horses. We do too - but not for the numbers being dumped. Also it's not the old and infirm that are being slaughtered. At the last auction I saw lovely painted pony who would have looked great in the hunter ring, a decent looking ASB, yearling App, etc, etc. They were run down a concrete aisle and all stuffed into a 10 horse trailer being whipped the entire time. There were at least 20 horses.

[Lildunhorse]

But you would never tell someone they couldn't do it...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Actually theres been a number of people here and on other threads that say if I don't want a mare any more it should be killed rather then sold if it goes to slaughter. Like I said I find killing for the sake of killing a digusting act </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by olehorsegal:
I want to end the suffering and the slaughter actually prolongs it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really like the way you phrased this thought.

[onthebit12000]

According to the National Renderers Assc. if horse slaughter ended tomorrow and all 80,000 who are slaughtered in the US or sent to Canada and Mexico for slaughter were to be sent to rendering facilities (which of course this figure is highly unlikely)the rendering plants would not even notice the difference.

They have the capacity to render many times over the number of horses slaughtered annually in the US.

County, if you feel you must recycle your horse's carcass post death, perhaps you should consider making arrangements with a large cat sanctuary or other exotic animal enterprise to provide them with your horses when the time comes?

Ending horse slaughter for human consumption does not take away anyone's right to slaughter their own horse if that is what they want to do. Of course, those who choose to slaughter their horses, will still have to adhere to humane laws so as to not cause the animal any undue suffering. If you want to shoot your horse and feed it to whatever non-human you want, that is your business.

Ending commercial horse slaughter for European profit is another thing entirely. Ending commercial horse slaughter will end an entire perpetual cycle of cruelty and suffering.

The horse slaughter plants and their "traders" are the single greatest perpetrators of equine cruelty in the US today. This egregious cruelty and the whole cycle of horse slaughter trade abuse will end once these plants are closed. How anyone who really and truly cares about horses could possibly be against ending this suffering, is beyond me.

People need to stop making excuses as to why they support these foreign owned horse exploiters and abusers. If you are for commercial horse slaughter, you do not care about horses, you care about money. That is the only true reason anyone would support this cruelty.

[Rivermeer]

I am just wondering why people who are for the plant processing of slaughter are on a horse board. Obviously they are not for the well being of the horses themselves.

Heather

[county]

If someones for slaughter there not a lover of horses? B.S. they just look at things differantly. And I have no more problem with foreign owned businesss making profits here then I do with U.S. business making profits in other countries.

[county]

It always amazes me when some think a business cares about making money. Without it no business survives.

As far as feeding horses to large cats theres a zoo 20 miles from here. They have a list of people that want to donate horses for cat food. Its backed up about 5 years now.

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
It always amazes me when some think a business cares about making money. Without it no business survives.

As far as feeding horses to large cats theres a zoo 20 miles from here. They have a list of people that want to donate horses for cat food. Its backed up about 5 years now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some foxhunts will also take horses to feed the hounds.

[onthebit12000]

I do not have a problem with a foreign owned business making a profit here either, so long as they do it within the guidelines of US law. The horse slaughter plants do not abide by our laws, in fact they routinely break American laws each and every day.

They are responsible for the brutal suffering of tens of thousands of healthy American horses each and every year both during transport and in the slaughter plants themselves. In my opinion, any corporation, foreign or domestic, does not have a right to make a profit or even exist in the US, if they cannot and will not abide by our laws.

The slaughter plants dont give a rats ass about our laws or the humane treatment of horses.

[county]

So wheres our law enforcement if laws are broke? American companies also break laws both here and abroad. In all cases its the law enforcements job if its happening to enforce.

[onthebit12000]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So wheres our law enforcement if laws are broke? American companies also break laws both here and abroad. In all cases its the law enforcements job if its happening to enforce. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I agree. However, in the case of the horse slaughter plants, the laws that exist prohibit the sale of their eventual product! It has always amazed me that they can export a product that is illegal to sell in the US.

In IL (home of Cavel) it is illegal to sell horsemeat. In TX (home of Beltex and Dallas Crown) it is illegal to slaughter horses for human consumption or sell horsemeat. These two states have long ago decided that the sale of horsemeat is illegal. Texas has had to defend itself against these illegal plants in an attempt to uphold their laws. The state has spent a tidy amount of their taxpayer dollars trying to rid itself of a business that should have never been there in the first place. Surely TX has better things to do with this money than defend itself against an illegal trade? This is no different than if someone opened up a storefront to sell cocaine to overseas consumers. The cocaine is illegal, the store would be closed, and the store owner prosecuted to the fullest.

So why is this not the case in TX? Because there is no outright federal law prohibiting the export of horsemeat (YET!!). Ah...the giant loophole that allows the cruelty and the lawbreakers to continue their evil and ILLEGAL trade.

The states and the people who live within them, have a right to enact and enforce their own laws. The federal government should stand by the states decisions as the states do by federal law. If a product is illegal to sell within the US, then it should damn well be illegal to export as well.

I challenge anyone to name any other "product" that is illegal to sell in the US but is legal to export?

[county]

The reason there still going is they have gone to court saying the TX. law violates Federal law. Court hasn't ruled yet. Its like if Tx. said were making a law that its legal to sell cocaine. It violates Fedaral law, Federal law over rides state law and thats what there waiting for on a ruling.

[onthebit12000]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The reason there still going is they have gone to court saying the TX. law violates Federal law. Court hasn't ruled yet. Its like if Tx. said were making a law that its legal to sell cocaine. It violates Fedaral law, Federal law over rides state law and thats what there waiting for on a ruling.

Quality doesn't cost it pays. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im well aware of the TX lawsuits, in fact I have copies of all legal documents filed by both sides. I am also disgusted that the judge sitting on this case has failed to issue a ruling for over 2 1/2 years now!

This tells me one thing...the case will ultimately be ruled in favor of TX law. Otherwise, he would have issued his ruling already knowing that nothing would change for the 2 Texas plants.

The ruling will go against the plants, and Im sure that they know this too. They are operating on borrowed time and this particular judge is the guy that they were able to borrow the time from.

[Susan P]

YOU FAILED!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LostFarmer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you can't pull $150 out of your pocket to euthanize your horse , than you shouldn't own one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not the point. Is it better to euthanize a horse and let the body rot in a landfill or behind the barn than to utilize the meat? I believe in reuse and waste not. To kill and not use is wastefull and absolutley wrong.

I have yet to say that I am pro-slaughter. I am trying to show that this issue is not as simple as black-white, good-bad, nice-mean. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Susan P]

This is the perfect solution for people who want to use the carcass of their horse. I don't think I could do it with my horses but it wouldn't cause the horse unnecessary terror like the commercial slaughter plants do.

I was actually thinking about this while reading the posts.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by onthebit12000:
According to the National Renderers Assc. if horse slaughter ended tomorrow and all 80,000 who are slaughtered in the US or sent to Canada and Mexico for slaughter were to be sent to rendering facilities (which of course this figure is highly unlikely)the rendering plants would not even notice the difference.

They have the capacity to render many times over the number of horses slaughtered annually in the US.

County, if you feel you must recycle your horse's carcass post death, perhaps you should consider making arrangements with a large cat sanctuary or other exotic animal enterprise to provide them with your horses when the time comes?

Ending horse slaughter for human consumption does not take away anyone's right to slaughter their own horse if that is what they want to do. Of course, those who choose to slaughter their horses, will still have to adhere to humane laws so as to not cause the animal any undue suffering. If you want to shoot your horse and feed it to whatever non-human you want, that is your business.

Ending commercial horse slaughter for European profit is another thing entirely. Ending commercial horse slaughter will end an entire perpetual cycle of cruelty and suffering.

The horse slaughter plants and their "traders" are the single greatest perpetrators of equine cruelty in the US today. This egregious cruelty and the whole cycle of horse slaughter trade abuse will end once these plants are closed. How anyone who really and truly cares about horses could possibly be against ending this suffering, is beyond me.

People need to stop making excuses as to why they support these foreign owned horse exploiters and abusers. If you are for commercial horse slaughter, you do not care about horses, you care about money. That is the only true reason anyone would support this cruelty. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Susan P]

There will always be someone to tell you what you can and cannot do, it's called the law. You can't smoke in most restaurants now days, you can't litter, you can't legally kick your dog, beat your wife and kids, you can't abuse or neglect any animal unless you're doing it while you're slaughtering it. You can't slaughter your dog or cat the way you do your horse, why not?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I don't really see it as winning or losing just two differant veiws of life. If the laws are changed then so be it life and business go on and you make changes accordingly just like anything else. But in the meantime I'm not going to allow someone to tell me what I should do any more then someone else would allow me to tell them what to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

Common sense needs to come into play here at some point. Its obvious one must follow the law and the law says one can sell horses to slaughter. My meaning is I'd never think of telling someone they should slaughter their horse thats there business. But I expect the same in return as to what I should do

[montanamanda]

Why must every living thing be processed by humans?? Why does it have to all have to pass through our sytems and end up in the bottom of the toilet or else be considered wasted?? Why do we feel the need to take what is left and grind it up and feed it to our cattle? For God's sake we are even feeding them chicken crap! Cows are supposed to eat grass. What is wrong with burying the dead animal and feeding it to the grass?? That is what completes the cycle. Instead we feed the grass chemical fertilizers. I do not understand why returning something to the earth is considered wasted. It is the way things were before we humans got the big idea that we were Lord and Master over every living thing. We humans are sure arrogant s.o.b.'s to think we know better than God what is good for the earth.

[LostFarmer]

Montanamanda-
The difference is that animals didn't bury each other. They ate each other. When a critter died the bones were picked clean and THEN pooped out on the ground by some critter. You put 1500 lbs in the ground and it is more likley to contaminate than to feed the grass.

I have and idea lets never slaughter another horse but let them make lifes cycle and die to be consumed by the maggots, scavanger birds, and dogs. This would be as natural as the life of the mustang.

So yes MA if you want to know the truth, the animals DO need to pass through the system and end up as poop before it can be used by the grass.

[montanamanda]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LostFarmer:
This would be as natural as the life of the mustang.

For one thing I am not your MA. Since we only slaughter a small percentage of horses what do you think happens to the rest that die?? Do they go to land fills? Isn't that the same thing as burying?

[county]

Theres nothing wrong with doing any of that and its totally your choice to do with your horse as you wish. As far as feeding chicken manure to cattle its been outlawed here.

[Susan P]

In the beginning, there was God...God made man. There was NO death. Man was not intended to eat meat but eating meat was part of the curse when we were removed from the Garden of Eden. It's not a good thing, it's a punishment, like flies.


We've taken it further with our greed and gluttony. We want more flesh than we need, if we need any. Kill the animals faster with no consideration of their pain and suffering. http://matthewscully.com/

We have choices. http://certifiedhumane.org/ How many people are willing to pay a little more to give an animal a kinder life and even death? Eliminate the assembly line slaughter! Stop killing baby animals and buying fur that is only used for vanity and the meat is discarded. For goodness sakes, don't eat your friends! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Dogs, cats and horses are our pets, our friends, who's next?

When Jesus entered Jerusalum he entered on a donkey and when He returns in Glory it will be on a white horse. The Bible says that horses aren't for food. This tells me that they are in a different category.

Now this is a religious perspective as well as a humanitarian one but it is relevant to the original post. That's all I have to say about it, it's my opinion, no need to debate it. Obviously it's not usually shared with posters on this board but I have a right to my position, it's not flexible, at all. I didn't come up with this overnight, I used to think, why not slaughter horses as well as other animals, why are they different? I just explained why, I am convinced and will not be moved. I have given this a lot of thought and I have other non religious reasons too but this is my ethical and religious reasons. Don't pick it apart, it is a whole.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by montanamanda:
Why must every living thing be processed by humans?? Why does it have to all have to pass through our sytems and end up in the bottom of the toilet or else be considered wasted?? Why do we feel the need to take what is left and grind it up and feed it to our cattle? For God's sake we are even feeding them chicken crap! Cows are supposed to eat grass. What is wrong with burying the dead animal and feeding it to the grass?? That is what completes the cycle. Instead we feed the grass chemical fertilizers. I do not understand why returning something to the earth is considered wasted. It is the way things were before we humans got the big idea that we were Lord and Master over every living thing. We humans are sure arrogant s.o.b.'s to think we know better than God what is good for the earth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

And you have every right to them, just as yjr rest of the world has every right to their beleifs. I won't try to change yours unless you try changing mine.

[LostFarmer]

Well said SusanP. And Like wise I have my reasons for my beliefs as well. They are formed from being raised with animals of every kind. I am happy to grant that you hate slaughter of every kind. I am the opposite I feel every the utility of every creature should be used in its entirety. That is why I have organ donor and cadaver on my DL. It will be my last bit of utility to the world. I have my religious beliefs as to why this is the correct way of thinking.

Again I have really enjoyed this discussion. For the most part (except for rendering me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) it has not fallen to the level of personal attacks and remained constructive. I don't agree with you, and you dissagee with me, but at least we know and understand the others way of thinking.

[FLAbreds]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by montanamanda:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LostFarmer:
This would be as natural as the life of the mustang.

For one thing I am not your MA. Since we only slaughter a small percentage of horses what do you think happens to the rest that die?? Do they go to land fills? Isn't that the same thing as burying? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some of us even cremate our pets and that includes horses, too! So not all end up in landfills or buried out on the back 40.

[Lildunhorse]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif
Well, as long as we're all speaking freely, this is how I feel about it.
When the world was a simpler place, and we were each responsible for our own survival, we appreciated the sacrifices made by our fellow mammals. That no longer exists in society as a whole. Our senses are dulled by excesses. We strive to own more things and forget that more things just means more things..nothing more. There are more and more people, and a lot of them struggle with the day to day existance. We each tend to think in terms of "me" instead of "we".
My parents were already grandparents when I was born, so I was raised closer to a time that many have already forgotten. Our animals were part of the circle of life and therefore were treated with respect and dignity. It was a simple way of life. Not to say it wasn't difficult, but it was so much less complicated.
My heartache, is that these animals, horses, cows, pigs, sheep, chickens, goats, whatever...are being sacrificed without the benefit of the kindness and compassion we owe them and used to give them.. For some reason, no we feel it is our right to do with them as we want, when their presence is actually a priviledge. Very few humans these days understand the difference between a right and a priviledge. And the farther away from that mindset we get, the closer we come to our own self destruction.
We've tried laws to regulate slaughter. They obviously don't work, but especially in regards to the horses. Since half the population of the United States isn't even aware of the fact that horses are slaughtered for meat, let alone the surrounding circumstances, how can we expect any support in the full enforcement of those laws? The way we treat our animals speaks volumes about us as a nation.
I would not accuse any of you on this list of being insensitive or ungrateful. The fact that we are here having this discussion says exactly the opposite.
I want horse slaughter to end because society as a whole lacks the knowledge, compassion and appreciation that would make their death meaningful. I chose to focus on the slaughter of horses, because, yes, I do know they are different than other animals, but mostly because so few people are aware of what's happening with these creatures. Our horses are in desperate need of advocation. Slaughter laws are too important not to get full, undivided attention from each and every member of our society. Now, if we can just tear them away from the television set.

[sabby]

Okay, everyone who posted that is not totally against this process, make an effort to actually go to a plant and watch the process. Great insight; especially when the knackers miss but still send the horse through anyway. Post back when you've returned to let us know how it went. I'll bet that your position on this matter will have changed to total closure of each and every plant.

[county]

Bet it won't I've been in them and I've worked in three cattle plants. bottom line to me is like I've said before. Anyone that buys any product from any type livestock or poultry slaughter is the biggest supporters of it.

Without your money there out of business

[Lildunhorse]

You're right County.
So what we have is a nation full of detached human beings, supporting an industry that they know nothing about and are barely aware exists.
Hardly fair to the animals.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Bet it won't I've been in them and I've worked in three cattle plants. bottom line to me is like I've said before. Anyone that buys any product from any type livestock or poultry slaughter is the biggest supporters of it.

Without your money there out of business </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

Some must die so others may live. Been that way since the dawn of time.

[Lildunhorse]

Not news to me. But did you read my previous post?
It's the way they die and the way we live. It's not good for any of us.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Some must die so others may live. Been that way since the dawn of time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Bet it won't I've been in them and I've worked in three cattle plants. bottom line to me is like I've said before. Anyone that buys any product from any type livestock or poultry slaughter is the biggest supporters of it.

Without your money there out of business </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Most of us differentiate between horse slaughter and chicken slaughter. I purchase chicken and beef and salmon and grow my own lamb and goat meat. How is that supporting horse meat?

[county]

I'm not most of us I'm me. To me inhumane treatment is just that I don't feel its alright to treat one species differant then another, And i can't justify thinking its alright to be inhumane butchering cows or chickens but not horses. Its either one or the other. Hitler had no problem toturing Jews I don't think it would be right to do to any race. Feel the same about animals.

[Lildunhorse]

I know you weren't addressing this to me, but the lightbulb just went on.
When I lobby for horses' rights, don't you think that it might make a difference to other species too?
I know that when I got my feedlot mare, it made me do some thinking and researching and I learned a lot of stuff I didn't really want to know. I guess that makes me just like everyone else, but it also strengthened my resolve to help all animals. It's just that I felt the need to help with this particular campaign first, because this is where I see the most need and the chance to do the most good.
Does that make sense?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I'm not most of us I'm me. To me inhumane treatment is just that I don't feel its alright to treat one species differant then another, And i can't justify thinking its alright to be inhumane butchering cows or chickens but not horses. Its either one or the other. Hitler had no problem toturing Jews I don't think it would be right to do to any race. Feel the same about animals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I'm not most of us I'm me. To me inhumane treatment is just that I don't feel its alright to treat one species differant then another, And i can't justify thinking its alright to be inhumane butchering cows or chickens but not horses. Its either one or the other. Hitler had no problem toturing Jews I don't think it would be right to do to any race. Feel the same about animals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
My local halal butcher doesn't do chickens. He would process a steer for me but I don't have room for one. My lambs and goats are raised, transported and slaughtered humanely.

[county]

I'm all for animal rights and humane slaugher also thats why I've worked to get changes made at places I've worked. By shutting down an industry does that mean its going to change another industry? I've yet to hear that claim made, only that slaughter should be stopped. Some want all forms of slaughter houses closed. By shutting down equines its there first step for every species.

And one can paint it any color you want if you spend money on the slaughter of any species you support that business.

[Lildunhorse]

Well, I'll go out on a limb and say that I think it would.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
By shutting down an industry does that mean its going to change another industry? I've yet to hear that claim made, only that slaughter should be stopped. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[karassa]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Hitler had no problem toturing Jews I don't think it would be right to do to any race. Feel the same about animals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I hereby invoke Godwin's Law.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Godwin's Law: prov.

[Usenet] “As a Usenet discussion (or any online discussion) grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.” There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis (or Hitler) has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I think it is very pertinent to make the distinction between various animals, whether you consider them livestock or pets. It is ok to house a guinea pig in a 3ft by 3ft hutch. It would be considered cruel to house my cat in the same hutch for the entirety of her life. Slaughter plants were designed to handle cows. They were not designed for horses. Is slaughter inhumane for cows as well? Honestly I don't know, but as has been stated, this is a HORSE forum. We *KNOW* it is cruel for horses; that is why those who are anti-slaughter wish to see the practice abolished completely for horses.

[Lildunhorse]

Oh, my goodness! That's just too funny!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by karassa:
I hereby invoke Godwin's Law.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Godwin's Law: prov.

[Usenet] “As a Usenet discussion (or any online discussion) grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.” There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis (or Hitler) has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I'm all for animal rights and humane slaugher also thats why I've worked to get changes made at places I've worked. By shutting down an industry does that mean its going to change another industry? I've yet to hear that claim made, only that slaughter should be stopped. Some want all forms of slaughter houses closed. By shutting down equines its there first step for every species.

And one can paint it any color you want if you spend money on the slaughter of any species you support that business. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's great that you have worked for better conditions at the slaughterhouses you've worked at...I wish more of those workers would demand better conditions. I don't know how many do...do you know?

Also, I think everyone on this forum has been very careful not to campaign for the end of slaughter of all animals. In fact, I can't think of anyone in the anti horse slaughter movement who has (I am NOT talking about organizations like PETA...they are not a front line player in this campaign).

I know that I for one have made a deliberate change in the way I buy meat products now since I've become involved in this campaign. Perhaps one day I'll get involved in a campaign to force the slaughterhouses to adhere to the Humane Slaughter Act. But right now I am concentrating on getting HR 503 passed.

[carolprudm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SafeHorses:&lt;SNIP&gt;

I know that I for one have made a deliberate change in the way I buy meat products now since I've become involved in this campaign. Perhaps one day I'll get involved in a campaign to force the slaughterhouses to adhere to the Humane Slaughter Act. But right now I am concentrating on getting HR 503 passed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is why I have tried to raise as much of my family's meat as possible and would raise more if I could find someone to process poultry.
Raised with my horses and slaughtered humanely. If only I wasn't feeding the neighborhood dogs also.

[perfectionist]

Several years ago I went to a seminar on ANIMAL PSYCHOLOGY; a lady taught this. It dealt with how to build farm facilities to handle cattle easier. For example, one thing she mentioned was "rounding" corners rather than angled corners.

She also mentioned slaughterhouses and how the animals (she concentrated on cattle) were handled to keep them calmer. I recall something about if the animals got frantic, they did not "bleed out" properly. Possibly COUNTY knows more about this.

But from this seminar it appeared there was a distinct effort by the big facilities to keep the animals CALM to facilitate the process.

I do not think the horse slaughterhouses are concerned with this. Now I have never been and I would not go to check it out. The pictures and videos were enough.

I thing overbreeding is part of the problem. I continually say I can buy a horse cheaper than I can raise it, at least for the type of horses I show. I have a reserve world champion mare that everyone says I should breed her, but I fear what would happen if the foal was not as good as her.

Even if the slaughterhouses were shut down in the US, there would still be transports into Canada and Mexico. You can dig into the USDA stats and find these figures, if you really dig.

I think the people on this forum are concerned with the HANDLING and the TRANSPORTATION issue of the horses bound for slaughter. Remember the wreck of the cattle truck last September where 20 or more horses perished? That was an example of horses being transported via a carrier not meant for transporting horses.

Possibly if the transportation was regulated more vigorously, the killer buyers would not be as anxious to purchase.

[county]

For sure and as I've said before the transport system and the kill floor system need big changes in equine slaughter houses. I've approached differant anti slaughter groups and people about working towards that goal. Virtually all have said the same thing " Never!!" the only thing they will accept is 100% shut down.

Are they for the horse, or their agenda?

[carolprudm]

Unfortunatly there are regs on the books that are not enforced.

[county]

Whats your point?

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
For sure and as I've said before the transport system and the kill floor system need big changes in equine slaughter houses. I've approached differant anti slaughter groups and people about working towards that goal. Virtually all have said the same thing " Never!!" the only thing they will accept is 100% shut down.

Are they for the horse, or their agenda? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the horses...and this is rather tiresome of you county...we've answered this question over and over and over...

We are for the horses, we don't want horse slaughter to be legal, and we want humane slaughter for cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens, turkeys, and any other food animal (horses are NOT FOOD ANIMALS in the US).

And don't ask why or throw the hypocrite label around again. We've answered that question over and over and over.

It's simple...we all agree that all food animals should be raised and slaughtered in humane conditions. Where we part company with you, county, is that we don't include horses in that category.

[county]

I've never once said horses are food animals in the U.S. But if everyones supposed to be for the horse why not work to make conditions better for them? What happens if slaughter is still legal in say 20 years? Condtions haven't changed because the effort to make it illegal hasn't worked. Why not try and change conditions?

[jetsmom]

Why not enforce laws already on the books? Horse slaughter for human consumption is illegal in TX yet, 2 slaughterhoses still operate.
County- You keep bringing up that it's OK because we export it, but it is illegal in TX. There are alot of countries that have child Pornography...Should we just let a foreign country open up a child porn photography shop in TX and sell the porn tapes to those foreign countries? It's no different. We have a law outlawing making coats/clothes out of dog fur. How about if we had a Chinese company start slaughtering out dogs and making fur coats out of them to sell to other countries? IT'S THE SAME THING they are doing by exporting horse meat for human consumption.

[county]

Like has been said a number of times the courts haven't ruled yet on if Federal laws over rule TX. state laws. Until that time there not breaking any laws that have been proven are legal. Its how our court system works in this case. Either you beleive in the system or you don't. I do and until a rulings made one way or another I abide by it. Laws and our legal system are for all not just which side of an issue your on

[county]

BTW its not the same thing, one thing is legal here ones not

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I've never once said horses are food animals in the U.S. But if everyones supposed to be for the horse why not work to make conditions better for them? What happens if slaughter is still legal in say 20 years? Condtions haven't changed because the effort to make it illegal hasn't worked. Why not try and change conditions? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't be for the horse and for slaughtering it. That doesn't make sense to me.

I chose to work to make slaughter of horses illegal and I don't think it's going to take 20 years either.

Conditions haven't changed in horse slaughter not because there are people working to stop it...instead the abuses happen because those in the slaughter industry put profit ahead of humane treatment.

[county]

Thats an opinion nothing more. I've been in the horse business 40 years and in everyone of them I've been told a few more years and slaughter will be illeagl. Hasn't happened, but year after year the conditions for the horse have gotten worse not better. IMO if your for horses welfare you try to improve things not make them worse.

[ASB Stars]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Thats an opinion nothing more. I've been in the horse business 40 years and in everyone of them I've been told a few more years and slaughter will be illeagl. Hasn't happened, but year after year the conditions for the horse have gotten worse not better. IMO if your for horses welfare you try to improve things not make them worse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

County- could you be more specific ? What conditions do you feel have gotten worse ?

[county]

transport by far the most. At one point we had 38 slaughter houses to take horses to now we have 3. Instead of horses being loaded into trailers there familiar with by people they knew most there life. There now taken to auctions and then to holding facilites, from there they go into semis and are hauled up to 1000's of miles over days.

Before they could arrive at a slaughetr house within hours at the most. They were unloaded by people they knew and slaughtered within a few hours tops. Now they sometimes stand in holding pens for days.

The anti slaughter movement has done nothing to improve conditions, they have done alot to make them worse

[montanamanda]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
The anti slaughter movement has done nothing to improve conditions, they have done alot to make them worse </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If there is no slaughter, none of the above will happen. That is what the anti slaughter people are working so hard on. How dare you blame the cruelty we are fighting so hard to end on us!! This is you pro slaughter people who are doing this torture to horses, we are fighting it with everything we have.

[county]

The key word to your whole statement is the very first one. And I stand by what I said, had the number of plants not been shut down horses would not be hauled the way they are and the pro slaughter people aren't the ones who fought to shut them down. Paint it any color you want still comes out the samw.

[county]

" IF " the slaughter bill fails like before then slaughter continues. Anyone interested in changing conditions? Or is it business as usual and fight for the agenda while shoving the horses to the back burner so to speak?

[county]

As I've said before if the law is changed so slaughter is outlawed then we have to live with that law. But the law has not been changed.

How many slaughter plants have you worked at? The people in them are no differant then anyone else in life. If say a car mechcanic tortured animals as a child do you put all car mechanics in the same group? Why would you do so with people that work in a slaughter house. In this county its the largest employer there is, most people that work there do so for the biggest reason most people have a job. To support their family and pay their bills.

[county]

And I don't see where I said I value Federal law over state rights at all thats something you made up to fit your agenda. I only stated why the slaughter houses are still operating when someone asked why if its against Tx. state laws.


But I beleive you've taken what I've said out of context as others have. I'm saying why should I allow others to tell me what I can and should do with my livestock when I've never told them what they should do with theirs? If we want to allow both sides equal treatment then I should be able to tell someone they should sell their horse to slaughter if they no longer have a use for it and there should be no one offended.

[county]

Show me where I said Federal laws should over ride state laws? Never meant it that way at all, only thats why the plants are still operating.

As far as are conditions inhumane in equine slaughter houses I've said many times the kill floors are and much needs to be changed same for the transport system. Haven't gooten any anti slaughter people to help change anything though. All the ones I've asked personally say the same thing. 100% shut down or nothing. Meanwhile decade after decade the horses still pay the price with the same system.

[county]

I think some would do nothing to change them they've said no less when they state so. They have said only 100% shut down is what they will support.

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
transport by far the most. At one point we had 38 slaughter houses to take horses to now we have 3. Instead of horses being loaded into trailers there familiar with by people they knew most there life. There now taken to auctions and then to holding facilites, from there they go into semis and are hauled up to 1000's of miles over days.

Before they could arrive at a slaughetr house within hours at the most. They were unloaded by people they knew and slaughtered within a few hours tops. Now they sometimes stand in holding pens for days.

The anti slaughter movement has done nothing to improve conditions, they have done alot to make them worse </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well county, apparently you miss the days when we were slaughtering horses in the 100's of thousands. What you write above isn't going to happen.

It might sound like a sensible argument, but it isn't...how many cattle slaughterhouses are around? Has that made their treatment and slaughter humane? Probably at some plants, but that has more to do with that particular company doing the right thing and not putting profit ahead of humane slaughter more than it has anything to do with the number of slaughterhouses available.

And just stop with how the anti slaughter folks have made slaughter conditions worse. All aspects of this industry conspire to set the standards...it's up to them and they've failed. Blaming the people trying to stop it is illogical. Put blame where it belongs.

Work to get slaughter outlawed...since the number of houses aren't going to increase (which is your solution for making slaughter humane), then the only way you can stop the abuse is to stop slaughter altogether.

[county]

If the number of slaugher plants isn't going to increase why are there more today then a few years ago? Do i miss the days of slaughtering 100's of 1000's/ Not at all I do miss the days when horses didn't have to be transported in todays system. But then I hate seeing needless inhumane treatment of livestock. And you can say anti slaughter groups haven't made conditions in transport worse if you like but tell me how they've made it better.

[SafeHorses]

Why is it up the the people wanting to stop it altogether to make it more humane? How is it we hold the key? Direct that question towards the people who think it's okay and make money doing it. What are they doing to make it humane...especially since it would take a lot of heat off them. Why are you letting them off the hook?

I have a great idea on how to make it better...outlaw it.

You keep forgetting that there is more than one reason that we have for wanting it outlawed.

[county]

BTW I think you have trouble reading what I write. In no way have I said having more plants makes the kill floor more humane. What I said was it makes the transport system more humane.

[county]

I'm not letting anyone off the hook I've said many times to have everyone work together to acheive a goal in the middle. If anyones serious about making conditions better why not go that way?

If the latest bill to outlaw slaughter fails then what? Does anyone think improvement should be the goal or do you restart trying to outlaw it. And if thats the case shouldn't slaughter have the samew rights to try and get it legal again. I would think each side should be treated the same and have the same rights.

[SafeHorses]

I read just fine...you have written very clearly that the anti slaughter people have made conditions WORSE.

There are laws in place for the humane treatment of animals, all animals, in slaughterhouses...just what else is it you are expecting the anti slaughter people to get passed outside of an outright ban on horse slaughter?

[county]

I wrote it clearly because thats what I meant.

I don't expect anyone to get anything passed. I'd like to see both sides work to make transport and kill floors better. Take the money both sides spend and make some changes. Ban together to set up a cross country hauling system that doesn't involve double deck trucks.

Whats more important agendas or horses?

[SafeHorses]

pacificsolo...the law is already there...it's called the Humane Slaughter Act.

Slaughterhouses do not want our involvement in the way they do business...ask them why.

[carolprudm]

I believe state laws can be more restrictive than federal laws, but not looser. Some states for example restrict guns and fireworks more than others. Alcohol consumption is legal but state laws vary and some counties in KY are dry.
Therefore TX should be allowed to enforce a ban on slaughter in TX even if it is legal elseware.

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I wrote it clearly because thats what I meant.

I don't expect anyone to get anything passed. I'd like to see both sides work to make transport and kill floors better. Take the money both sides spend and make some changes. Ban together to set up a cross country hauling system that doesn't involve double deck trucks.

Whats more important agendas or horses? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The horses...you keep asking the question and I keep answering.

[county]

So if the newest bill fails, and the courts rule its not against the law to slaughter horses in Tx. do you feel the two sides should ban together for changes in conditions or not?

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
So if the newest bill fails, and the courts rule its not against the law to slaughter horses in Tx. do you feel the two sides should ban together for changes in conditions or not? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A better question: do I think the USDA will better enforce the Humane Slaughter Act? Depends on the amount of public pressure they get. The law is already there and they violate it because the USDA allows them to.

[county]

So I think we can take it the answer to the question is no? Agendas or horses.

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
So I think we can take it the answer to the question is no? Agendas or horses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice try...but wrong again. And the ball for better treatment is in the court of the slaughterhouses. Get it straight. Go ask them why they can't follow the law.

[county]

Which law aren't they following? The only one I know of one side says one thin the other something else and the court hasn't ruled yet.

So when you say wrong again you mean you would work together with pro slaughter people to help change conditions?

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Which law aren't they following? The only one I know of one side says one thin the other something else and the court hasn't ruled yet.

So when you say wrong again you mean you would work together with pro slaughter people to help change conditions? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't know about the Humane Slaughter Act? Seriously? Or are you being coy? I can find a link to it if you'd like to read it.

If those of you who are pro slaughter write your representatives and the administraion and the USDA to ask them to enforce the law, then I am already working with you. What else did you have in mind? What else is there? What are YOU doing outside of suggestions you made at your former job in a slaughterhouse (which I think is great by the way)? What are the slaughterhouses doing? Let's turn this question around.

[county]

Yes I know about the Act very well, its no differant then any law there is or anyone else. If its being broken and the law enfiorcement and legal system feels theres a problem then they should step in.

As for the direct question I asked would you in any way work with the other side hands on to see changes made in transport and kill floor systems?

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Yes I know about the Act very well, its no differant then any law there is or anyone else. If its being broken and the law enfiorcement and legal system feels theres a problem then they should step in.

As for the direct question I asked would you in any way work with the other side hands on to see changes made in transport and kill floor systems? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just answered your question...but you haven't answered mine. Again, what are you doing to hold the slaughterplants to humane slaughter practices? As someone who supplies horses to them, I would think your voice would hold more weight than mine. Have you tried it? Have you contacted them? Have you signed any petitions?

I have and will continue to lobby for humane slaughter regardless of the animal in question. If you are doing any of that, then we are indeed already working together.

You continue to press this point as if you think this is the only reason many of us want to outlaw horse slaughter. It isn't, as many of us have explained over and over and over.

[onthebit12000]

County,

Please try to get your facts straight before placing the blame for the horse slaughter inustries cruelty on the very people who have been fighting to improve conditions for decades!

First of all, the (federal) effort to ban horse slaughter had only been active for the past 4 years. It has not been ongoing for decades as you have indicated. Additionally, the first time this issue has ever been voted on was just this past June (Sweeney Amendment) and it passed overwhelmingly.

Secondly, there were never 38 horse slaughter plants! At the height of the horse slaughter trade in the US, there were 13 plants. I can provide you with the list if you like.
Many of these plants were shut down due to their own inadequacies, and NOT because of any anti slaughter movement. Most of the plants closed because they simply lost their EU approval to export to EU countries. This was due to their own filthy habits with regard to meat/food safety. A couple of plants, were closed due to pressure from within the communities where they were located. Much the same as the people of Kaufman who are trying today to close Dallas Crown. Nobody should have to live with that stench and filth uncovered and infiltrating their communities.

Thirdly, you accuse the anti slaughter advocates of not trying to make slaughter more "humane". This clearly shows that you have NO CLUE as to what has transpired in recent years.

The Commercial Transport of Equines to Slaughter Act of 2001 was an effort by humane groups to improve the conditions by which horses are transported to slaughter. Well, what a JOKE that turned out to be, when the feds decided to allow the slaughter plants, killer buyers and the USDA of all people to help WRITE THE LAW!! All this so-called humane act did was in our opinion, legislate cruelty into law!!
A total LOSS for the horses!! Dont believe me, perhaps its time you read this document to see what was said and by whom, during this transport law fiasco.
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OA/congress/hh_att6.htm

And since this law was enacted, what has APHIS done to enforce it? Answer: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! Nobody at USDA gives a rats ass how horses are treated during transport. We have been over this time and time again on this thread, and I am not going to repeat myself yet again. This "blame" lies strictly on the scofflaws who are transporting the horses, and the government agencies who are paid to enforce the laws, but are doing nothing to punish the lawbreakers!!

Finally, just last year, as a direct result of lobbying by humane groups armed with the GAO's dismal report on the state of enforcement (or should we say..lack thereof) of the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act, congress allotted an additional 5 million dollars to the USDA to be used exclusively by them, in order to ramp up enforcement of the HMSA. The USDA was 'supposed" to use this extra funding to hire additional inspectors whose only job would be to report on violations of the HMSA. Well, true to form, USDA did not do as congress intended. They have never spent one thin dime of the 5 million on HMSA enforcement. Why would they? The USDA has turned in to a pathetic and dangerous entity. It is entirely controlled by the very industries it is supposed to regulate.
One should never expect that while the fox is guarding the chicken coop that the chickens will remain safe!

The downfall of the horse slaughter trade in the US is in part due to the blatant and egregious cruelties these plants have inflicted upon our nations horses, and an ever increasing public awareness of these facts. It is also due to the fact that they have for decades, polluted our communities, broken our laws, and destroyed the overall quality of life for the residents in the communities they effected.

Next time you want to place blame for cruelties within this disgusting industry, try placing it where it belongs. On the horse slaughter plants and the scumbags who supply them.

[county]

If your not bright enough to discuss something without calling people names onthebit then theres nothing to say.

[SafeHorses]

No, I am not frustrated with you pacificsolo. My answer to you was that there IS a law and the slaughterhouses go to great lengths to keep people out of their plants so they can do business the way they want to...with the highest possible profit margin they can and if they violate the Humane Slaughter Act, they don't want that to get out.

I AM frustrated with an industry that portrays itself as a humane euthaniztion alternative, which it most definitely isn't. Then their supporters have the gall to blame the anti slaughter movement for the inhumanity of the system they set up. By asking if we would work with them to make the system more humane, they gloss over the fact that the laws are already there and try and put the onus on the anti slaughter movement when in reality, the onus is on them to follow the law.

There are three slaughterhouses left in the US. One is in Kaufman, TX called Dallas Crown. They are running into legal problems with the city and could be shut down...as the OP wrote when she started this tread.

Beltex is also in Texas, but I don't know which town...anyone out there who can tell us?

The third is Cavel and it's located in DeKalb Illinois.

Back in the orgininal post, Gail Vacca has a link to her website. If you go to her site, you can find out lots more about the slaughter industry and the work that many people are doing to outlaw horse slaughter.

Hope this helps a bit...

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
If your not bright enough to discuss something without calling people names onthebit then theres nothing to say. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny, I think she's very bright and did a good job answering your previous posts. There was a lot of information there that perhaps you can't counter, but she knows her stuff, that's for sure.

[county]

But not bright enough not to call people scum bags. Educated on a subject doesn't make one smart

[onthebit12000]

County,

Clearly this is an easy out for you. I did not call you any "names", so you should not feel offended in any way.

Now on the other hand, you have just implied that I am somehow in your opinion "not very bright". I have never personally attacked you and I deserve the same respect from you in return. If you have no response to my post (which clearly you dont), then you should have just simply NOT have posted a reply to this at all.

Please, lets not turn this thread into personal attacks.

[county]

Paint it whatever color you want. Where I grew up calling someone a " scumbag " is a personal attack. Maybe you were raised differantly.

[onthebit12000]

So are you now saying that you are a paid contracted killer buyer/transporter for the slaughter plants? Because that is who the "scumbag" reference was intended for.

[perfectionist]

Regarding APHIS, they have stepped up their inspections of walking/racking horses at horse shows. But I have not heard of them stepping up any other type of enforcement of the HORSE PROTECTION ACT. I have the email of a person at APHIS which I asked some questions:

Todd.H.Behre@aphis.usda.gov

He does respond to emails. May want to ask him why APHIS is not stepping up inspections of horse kill facilities?????

Also, her is a link to videos of the slaughter process that I got from MARY NASH'S site:

http://www.sharkonline.org/horseslaughter.mv

And regarding the decrease in the slaughterhouses, it may have also increased the number of exports. I could not find the export data on the USDA site, but I did find it for Mexico. The number to date of "slaughter" horses 3813 as of 08-13-2005. Here is the link to the USDA data site:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/AL_LS635.txt

1557 horses were slaughtered in the US the week of August 18. If you keep digging in the USDA site, you can come up with the data for the year.

[perfectionist]

BELTEX in Texas is in Ft. Worth according to the Mary Nash site. They have a new site: marynash.org if anyone wants to look at it. There was an old site: http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/horsemeat/index.htm

It has a lot of details. Her site has a list of killer buyers and even the records of "walk-ins". And photos of the process in the house. Not for the faint of heart......

[onthebit12000]

Perfectionist,

The number of horses exported for slaughter has not increased over the years that the number of horses slaughtered in the US has drastically decreased. There was no corresponding increase of horses exported to slaughter, the number of horses exported has remained virtually the same for many years.

These USDA statistics are documented in the TRF's white paper entitled "Horse Slaughter: An Unnecessary Evil" you can read the report here http://www.trfinc.org/news/TRF_WhitePaper.pdf

We track the weekly slaughter totals and I can send you the list privately, if you'd like.
I cant post it here, because in its format, it will not post properly in the columns which are necessary in order to read it.

[philosoraptor]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Yes I know about the Act very well, its no differant then any law there is or anyone else. If its being broken and the law enfiorcement and legal system feels theres a problem then they should step in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

County: from the tone of your past posts, I infer you work for a slaughterhouse or have in the past. Maybe you can explain why nobody is enforcing these gross violations of the law?

Based on what I'm seeing the USDA and other authorities do (or not do) it's clear that they're choosing to totally ignore what's going on. Maybe it's the big corporate meat/farm interests helping to pay the politicians way into office, I don't know. But clearly it doesn't care.

When video footage of slaughter workers *intentionally* stomping, tossing, and kicking chickens for FUN (nothing to do with the slaughter process), no charges were filed?!?! None. The best anyone did was have the chicken factory-farm say they'd "look into it" and "retrain" employees if they felt it was called for.
http://www.kentuckyfriedcruelty.com/investigations.asp

But they're only chickens so who cares, right?

The it happens and we have video/photo proof in other industries like beef and pork. (one example source: "Slaughterhouse: The Shocking Story of Greed, Neglect, and Inhumane Treatment Inside the U.S. Meat Industry" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/157392166...657-5611308?v=glance (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1573921661/102-9041657-5611308?v=glance))

It's ok, since these are only cows and pigs, right?

Then neglected, starved, abused horses show up at meat auctions, but that ok too since it's not the meat buyers who first abused the animals. No charges are ever filed since by the time this is seen, the horses are no longer the abuser's property and can't be siezed. Local police simply refuse to follow up on proof of cruelty cases coming through the auction.

A regular example of some horses at the meat auction near where I live:
http://equineprotectionnetwork.com/rescue/2ndchance.htm

After all... they're JUST horses, right? It's not your fault any particular horse is dying, sick, starved, and abused... so why should you do anything to stop the abuse?

And your biggest objection to looking into this further is because you're saying the law couldn't have ever been broken since charges aren't ever filed? So then every bit of proof including all these photos, videos, and stories must all be a hoax.

[county]

I've pretty much answered all those questions before. If from my posts thats what you've decided to come up with thats your game not mine. But nothing could be farther from the truth. My bet is I've done more to change kill floor practices in this area then all of you put together will in your lifetimes.

[perfectionist]

Thanks onthebit. I just wonder what the export numbers would do if all the plants in the US were closed. Would seem they would increase.

[Susan P]

Hi Pacificsolo,

I hate horseslaughter but I didn't used to think I could justify banning it. It took a lot of persuation for me to change my mind and I'm so glad I did. I wanted to keep an open mind on the subject but I don't like government intervention in our private lives. As you can tell this position was very thought out.

If I left out my religious convictions I can still find many other reasons to end horseslaughter and only for human consumption commercially. The profits are so high that the slaughterhouses do every unscrupulous thing they can to keep it going.

In the meantime I think that this http://matthewscully.com/
is an excellent resource to validate humanitarian reasons to end horseslaughter and reconsider how we treat all farm animals. It takes into consideration our stewardship toward the earth and all God's creatures.

[onthebit12000]

The level of corruption at USDA is so totally out of control, I dont know how we can ever even begin to clean that mess up.

It is impossible for an agency to be both the promoter of industry and the regulating body at the same time.

This article/report is very interesting (if not horrifying) reading , and it really cleared up a lot of unaswered questions for me that I had with regard to why the USDA is so anti animal welfare and pro industry. Check it out, if you dare. It is frightening to say the least.
http://www.agribusinesscenter.org/docs/Regulatory_1.pdf

Another very informative site is offered by a citizens group that watchdogs the USDA
http://www.usdawatch.org

[county]

What exactly is it you think we have to endure? Were no differant then any other community that has a differant type of large business,.

[Lildunhorse]

County, I must have misunderstood your profile. I thought you were in Minnesota.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
What exactly is it you think we have to endure? Were no differant then any other community that has a differant type of large business,. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

I am in Mn. what would make you think otherwise?

[Susan P]

Don't worry, the link I posted isn't graphic at all, it's a book by Matthew Scully, I think you'd like it. I don't want to see the graphic images either.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pacificsolo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">No, I am not frustrated with you pacificsolo </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Thank you!

Susan P...I have never been fond of any sort of horse killings, but like most legislation, I fear that other "things" will get attached to the bills and end up harming the horses in another way down the line...I really would prefer that there not be a single slaughter house for horses...and quite honestly, I would prefer a more humane way of killing the animals WE eat here...

Anyhow, I don't need to see pictures...I do fine imagining the horrors myself http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

I will look more carefully into how I can help....my own horse is an OTTB...and while I doubt she would have neded up at the feedlot, I know that is what every horse-lover/owner says...and about much more expensive horses than I bought http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I have worked on a real farm....you know..the kind with cows, pigs, horses....a "dead box"....I cannot imagine what the people in the communities where these plants are, have to endure...it sickens me and even frightens me... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[bryn]

Ah, yes, enlighten us won't you county, on just how you have done more to change kill floor practices in this area than all of us put together will in our lifetimes since you said,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My bet is I've done more to change kill floor practices in this area then all of you put together will in your lifetimes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you read Slaughterhouse by Gail Eisnitz by the way?

[county]

And I'm trying hard to beleive you have any common sense. A slaughter house is the same as any business theres really poor ones, really good ones, and everything in between. The one here can slaughter 1000 head of cattle when its at full capacity on average we do 750. Is there a smell? Certainly theres some smell, there is a smell in large cities from lots of vechicles also. I personally find that smell revolting people that live in large cities think nothing of it. People that live here think noting of the smells in this town.

Were very proud of our community and the people in it. But to be honest I don't think I've ever been on a forum where theres so many narrow minded people about how others live and do for a living. Troll? I'd have to say from your posts that fits you perfectly

[Susan P]

I beg to differ about people that live near slaughterhouses not minding the smell, ha.

Isn't there someone here who might disagree?

Certainly Mary Nash has commented greatly on the horrors of living next to the slaughterhouse in Kauffman, TX. She wrote extensively about the horrid situation and conditions. The sites and smells she endured on her farm were beyond disgust. I'd hardly say she was proud of this slaughter plant and neither does the town mayor who was elected by the towns people. So I guess you are...WRONG! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
And I'm trying hard to beleive you have any common sense. A slaughter house is the same as any business theres really poor ones, really good ones, and everything in between. The one here can slaughter 1000 head of cattle when its at full capacity on average we do 750. Is there a smell? Certainly theres some smell, there is a smell in large cities from lots of vechicles also. I personally find that smell revolting people that live in large cities think nothing of it. People that live here think noting of the smells in this town.

Were very proud of our community and the people in it. But to be honest I don't think I've ever been on a forum where theres so many narrow minded people about how others live and do for a living. Troll? I'd have to say from your posts that fits you perfectly </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

I'm not saying 100% of the people that live next to a slughter house don't like the smell anymore then 100% of the people in large cities like the smell of smog. I am saying the vast majority of the people who live here are proud of this community and enjoy life here, if they didn't they'd move. But your always going to have a few who complain but thats true everywhere.

BTW just how much smell do you think there is? Which cities or towns have you lived in where theres a slaughter plant? What was the turn over time for remains to be hauled to rendering? What was the turn over time for livestock to be slaughtered?

[Lildunhorse]

I just got confused. I was still in horse slaughter mode and couldn't remember there being a slaughterhouse in Minnesota. I wasn't thinking "cows". Never mind. I get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I am in Mn. what would make you think otherwise? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Daydream Believer]

Well...chicken slaughter houses certainly do stink. One in my old town was forced to put in some sort of fancy water and waste treatment system when chicken parts were dropping out of trucks and people were understandibly offended. While the stench and mess decreased a lot there are days when you simply cannot drive past the place. It is horrible. I cannot imagine living next to it.

[Lildunhorse]

Either way you spell it, it's offal (awful).
Now that I've tried to lighten things up with a really bad joke...
It seems the tone of this thread has changed a little over the weekend.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
BTW just how much smell do you think there is? Which cities or towns have you lived in where theres a slaughter plant? What was the turn over time for remains to be hauled to rendering? What was the turn over time for livestock to be slaughtered? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[carolprudm]

I escort my sheep and goats to the halal butcher and inside the plant the smell is certainly unpleasant. They do mostly lambs and kids and they are NOT smelly animals. There is a very short holding time for the animals, rarely more than a few hours and they are kept inside. They probably process 20 a day. The parts I have been in are extremely clean but the offal has a definite odor.

I take the my animals down there in winter. Maybe a couple of hundred horses, outside in the Texas summer....eeeewwwww. The manure disposal alone has to be a major issue, not to mention the flies.

[bryn]

County, you said

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My bet is I've done more to change kill floor practices in this area then all of you put together will in your lifetimes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are waiting to be enlightened with how you have done more to change kill floor practices in this area then all of us put together will in our lifetimes.

[county]

I'm still waiting for the answers to the questions I've asked you bryn. You've proven long ago your not interested in a discussion.

[jetsmom]

I think I've decided after reading this thread that trying to explain the against slaughter side to county is kind of like wrestling with a pig in the mud...It doesn't get you anywhere, and eventually you realize the pig kind of likes it!

[county]

The exact feeling I've gotten from a number of people here on the other side. There not looking for answers only an agenda.

[county]

This is my last post in this thread its becoming very obvious thereas not many actually looking for anything other then to pick a fight. But keep something in mind. This morning when you got up there were horses being slaughtered in a system designed for cattle. Tommorrow the same thing will be going on and next week and next month.

I'm sure it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling to know you can sign petitions, and call your congress person, write letters etc. to stop slaughter. But reality is tommorrow when you get up theres still slaughter.

So do you actually roll up your sleeves, get your hands dirty ( even bloody at times ) to make real changes that count? Or do you keep on like you have while each day things don't change?

Theres members of the clergy that rape and molest kids. Would you close down all the churches because of that fact? Or try and make sure those clergy people are taken out of the picture in the churches?

[grayarabs]

WEll noted that Pacific solo's questions were not answered. Did not expect they would be.
To our departing "friend" - watch out for that famous door............

[onthebit12000]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This is my last post in this thread its becoming very obvious thereas not many actually looking for anything other then to pick a fight. But keep something in mind. This morning when you got up there were horses being slaughtered in a system designed for cattle. Tommorrow the same thing will be going on and next week and next month.

I'm sure it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling to know you can sign petitions, and call your congress person, write letters etc. to stop slaughter. But reality is tommorrow when you get up theres still slaughter.

So do you actually roll up your sleeves, get your hands dirty ( even bloody at times ) to make real changes that count? Or do you keep on like you have while each day things don't change?

Theres members of the clergy that rape and molest kids. Would you close down all the churches because of that fact? Or try and make sure those clergy people are taken out of the picture in the churches? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, I beg to differ, County.

I am confident that the senate will concur with the house on the Sweeney amendment and come October 5, 2005 (the beginning of fiscal year 2006)the three remaining horse slaughter plants will be shut down by passage of the Sweeney amendment!!! While this will only close them for the FY 2006, it will buy us time (and save many horses lives), while we work to pass HR 503!

We are nearing the end of August, and in just 2 short weeks, congress will return to session. PLEASE, contact your Representative and Senators, be sure to do so today!! Ask your friends and relatives to do the same!

We are only inches away from really being able to make a difference for the horses. Together we can and WILL end this suffering!!

[SafeHorses]

Just in case you don't want to weed thru the whole thread...here's the website that will tell you who your Representative is and how to contact him/her. You can also find your Senators and this site will tell you how to contact them as well.

Contacting the Congress (http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/)

There are all sorts of "form letters" out there to help you get started on a letter or email to your congressperson. The Humane Society has one for example. It's super simple to contact your elected officials...I get correspondance from Diane Feinstein, Barbara Boxer, and Xavier Becerra (my rep) every time I write them.

Hope this info helps!

[LostFarmer]

I find it interesting that on another board there is the same link to get folks to call their Reps to vote the other way. Both are horse boards, one is primarly working horses, the other primarly for pets. On the other board, our friend country would have been run off for even suggesting that slaughter methods could be improved.

I find it ironic that the way to make money in ag buisness is to provide the nonesential items. Feed barley is nearly given away but malt barley is in high demand. Hay is cheap unless it is for a fancy rider to feed an overpriced pasture pony. And such useful animals as racehorses are where the big money starts to fly. A safe sond quality working ranch gelding can be had any time any place for 5k. A good quality work team and 6k is time to unload. Take that same gelding or team into the show ring and the price escalates.

If you want to rid the world of horse slaughter, remove the wanton waste at the top of social elite to want bigger, better, faster, stronger.

[bryn]

And the bottom line, he never could back up his statements with any facts or proof. I called him on his "spinning" from the start. Nothing changed. Good riddance to him.

Lost Farmer you make good points.

[greysandbays]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And the bottom line, he never could back up his statements with any facts or proof. I called him on his "spinning" from the start. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been lurking for quite a while, and I'm still waiting see YOUR side's "facts or proof" without any "spinning". So far all I've seen is OPINIONS -- like "horses are not food animals, unlike those other animals who are raised for slaughter", which completely ignores the factthat it was largely bred-to-work-not-be-eaten oxen (who brought the farmers west, and were eaten when they gave out on the trail). And the factthe hundreds of thousands of milk cows are not raised for meat yet become hamburger once their milk producing days are done. And the fact that it is only in recent history, since the advent of the internal combustion engine, that the horse has been anything but a working animal, just like oxen and milk cows. And OPINIONS -- like "WE don't eat our horses, so no European has any business eating them either" (even though we pant eagerly for Europe's lead on just about everything else from economic policies to social policies to military policies -- except the concept of eating horsemeat), which completely ignores the factthat a great many countries produce for export products and items which they do not themselves use (when was the last time YOU used elkhorn for anything? How often do you suppose those people making cheap saddlery in India ever even see a horse?).

Until you can explain to me exactly why my congressmen should be asailed with my reactionary, emotional, irrational rantings against horse slaughter, I'm afraid my letters to my congressmen will be arguing the opposite points: Horses WILL be slaughtered as long as there is a market for horsemeat. There will be a market for horsemeat in Europe for the forseeable future. Canada and Mexico will be more than happy to take up our slack, should we be so stupid as to outlaw horse slaughter. Our slaughter-bound stock will be shipped even vaster distances to meet their fate, and Mexico has even more dastardly slaughter conditions than your worse fears about American conditions (those horses are often used in charro rodeos &lt;shudder&gt; as life's finali before the slaughter plant).

When you compare slaughter to things that happen to horses in the name of "sport" -- like horses getting their legs broken with crowbars to collect the insurance, like horses dying on cross-country courses in pursuit of Olympic medals, like horses breaking down on the track, like horses being drugged up the wazoo in pursuit of prize money, prestige, and pretty trophies, like....... ya know what, I've dang near convinced myself that I should write my congressmen demanding that all forms of equestrian competition be BANNED. But that brings up all the "recreational" riders inflicting their attrocious "horsmanship" and ill-fitting equipment on their ever-suffering "companion" mounts, and it starts looking like PETA has the right idea -- bann all "exploitation" of horses in any form whatsoever, that'll fix it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Susan P]

Gee, your first post on COTH, you're really off to a good start. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Many laws are based on cultural biases such as not eating cats and dogs. That's not my opinion, is it? No, that's a fact just as American's don't eat horses, why should we send our horses flesh to other countries? Our horses are stolen and sent to slaughterhouses. The slaughter companies have been caught in deceptions.

The slaughterhouses do smell horribly and the cries of the animals are also distressful but not as distressful as it is to them. Imagine if we did this with our dogs and cats.

I don't recall Oxen sports, perhaps there are, pretty rare, don't you think? Not exactly the spectators to watch either, don't think there's an Olympic sport for pigs, chickens, cows, do you?

You've hardly made a good argument, perhaps that's why you lurked so long instead of commenting. I think Onthebit has give some very valuable information and you need to do your own homework, I personally think you came here with an agenda as many pro slaughter people seem to do. Perhaps you've been asked to write this for the slaughter plants?

[SafeHorses]

Graysandbays, welcome to the discussion!

You lost me on the oxen thing...if that's your justification for eating an animal that's considered by thousands to be a pet, then fine, that's your perogative. Do you eat horsemeat? Just curious.

Also, the "we copy everything Europe does" is a very weak argument. We don't do a lot of things Europe does...one of them is eat horsemeat...there's no getting around that fact. Frankly, if you ask me, they emulate us a lot more than the other way around. Been to Europe lately?

Why would you be reactionary and emotional on the anti slaughter side of things? Right now, your post seems to be one of the most emotional and reactionary ones on this thread in a while and it's PRO slaughter. Also, please read HR 503...that will answer your concerns about horses going across the border. Not sure how you missed that part of it...it's been referenced several times on this thread...did you actually read this thread and the others concerning slaughter?

And finally, I had no idea that over 65,000 horses died last year in insurance scams, racetrack fatalities, and drugging incidents...care to back up those numbers? Really, I'd love to see that somewhere...I am very interested. And knock yourself out asking for a ban on all horse sports...I am sure PETA would love to help.

Sorry, but I think it's quite a coincedence that county leaves in huff and the very next day up pops a new pro slaughter voice. Not that that's bad...not at all, but curious all the same.

[onthebit12000]

Clearly "greysandbays" has not read this thread or any other slaughter related thread, as each of these questions have been asked and answered many times with irrefutable facts and proof!

I suggest that we do NOT feed this troll!

[LouLove]

I am anti-slaughter.

I have a question for those defending anti-slaughter legislation and closing plants. When the plants close, where will the horses be transported that have a slaughter fate? I live in Canada, and we have a slaughter facility in Quebec and Alberta. These are days apart by transport. Slaughter houses are closing but auctions are not. I am playing devil's advocate because this is still a question that is unanswered for me. Mexican slaughterhouses make me shudder. Canadian ones do as well, but the transport from auction house to auction house makes me shudder more....

I am not looking to open a can of worms, but as said before, this is still a question that has never been answered, and I think that many pro-slaughter people who argue for plants to remain open use this as one of their main defenses. I don't think that the answer "Horse Slaughter will disappear when the plants disappear" is the right response. To me, the not-in-my-backyard response never a solid one. It allows people to say "We don't slaughter horses here", but it doesn't get to the route of the problem.

Again - I am definitely anti-slaughter - but I am looking for some answers to make my own argument stronger. Can some anti-slaughter activists supply me with some stats (ie. Since the bill passed in California, do auction houses still operate, and are the unwanted shipped to Mexico?)

Thanks.

[jetsmom]

Briartic mare- This question was answered earlier in the thread. I had the same question. What I gather, and perhaps onthebit/safe horses can answer it better (I know they can...) but apparently the law will make transport for slaughter illegal, so if someone lies and says that the horses they are trying to bring into Canada/MX, are riding horses, the taxes are prohibitively higher, plus they have to meet different requirements re health cert/Coggins, so that it wouldn't be economically feasible to try to take them out of the country.

Greysandbays- What do you think the citizens of India would do if we opened a cattle slaughtering facility in India, and slaughtered them by the thousands to import here? Same thing with horse slaughter here. Or if a company opened a plant to slaughter thousands of dogs and cats ( in a particularly inhumane way, as well), and send them to China to be eaten? The outcry would be huge. Cultural mores are not something to be scoffed at just because the citizens of another country feel differently.

[fototropic]

I know it's hard to let it pass but maybe those of you who are working so hard to stop horse slaughter should let the posts by people like County and Greysandsbay just go by. You're obviously not going to change their minds and engaging with them in debate just gives them a forum. How about just ignoring them and posting what we need to know to help you win the real fight?

And, by the way, what is a troll? I'm new.
Pam

[county]

I know I said I was done with this but if anyone thinks that just because its made illegal to haul horses into Mex. or Can. thats all there is to it is living in a dreamworld. Theres 1000's of illegal aliens trucked across the border from Mex. everyday. Do you have any idea how many miles of desert borderland there is? I lived in Az. and have family that still does beleive me hauling horses across that border is done now everyday.

Same as Can. I live in Mn. and go to Can. all the time, you can't possably beleive that theres not 1000's of back roads and places whhere people cross in the Dakotas, Mn, and mont. Get across without a coggins? I've done it as have 100's of people I know do you actually think if someone wants to haul a load of horses across there going to stop at the Port Of Entry? Good lord people use some common sense, if trafficking people and drugs across the borders is a piece of cake do you really beleive horses will be hard. And just how much do you think the gov. of the U.S., Can. , and Mex. is going to spend on trying to stop horses. I think they have just a little bigger problems there going to worry about. Lets try and be realistic here.

Agendas or horses which one you going to back up?

[Lildunhorse]

That's a very good point, County. The borders have always been a problem that way. I live near the Canadian Border and I can count half a dozen ways to get across undetected. That's something that will definitely need to be addressed and I don't see any easy solution.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
ITheres 1000's of illegal aliens trucked across the border from Mex. everyday. Do you have any idea how many miles of desert borderland there is?
Same as Can. I live in Mn. and go to Can. all the time, you can't possably beleive that theres not 1000's of back roads and places whhere people cross in the Dakotas, Mn, and mont. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[greysandbays]

Actually, I have read this WHOLE thread. And most of it consists of the equivalent of squalling todders shrieking that they don't like spinach, spinach is yucky, and spinach should be illegal. Of course, the toddler thinks his position is all-important and refuses to even consider that the flaw might lay in his logic and not in the spinach.

My letter to my congressmen will apparently have to say something to the effect that the best protection we can give the horses (if we actually CARE about the horses) is to make slaughter for export a viable industry that warrents expansion in slaughter plant numbers and drastic revamping of slaughter plant design to species-specific requirements.

The squawking that has been going on for the last 40 years (at least) to ban slaughter has accomplished nothing helpful, and the same laments and hand-wringing alternated with the uproar of offended delicate sensiblities are still being heard. And generations and generations of horses later, they are still no better off -- and may in many ways be much worse off. Which means either outlawing horse slaughter is NOT feasible for any number of reasons, or the anti-slaughter crowd hasn't a clue how to push their agenda to any conclusion beyond the satisfaction of holding an "enlightened" opinion with which to bludgeon non-conforming heretics to their "religion" on internet bulletin boards.

[shade]

so county what have exactly have you done to clean up the kill-floors??????

[county]

Myself along with other workers met with management to work at getting kill floor equipment upgraded. Convinced them that kill operators do a poor job after so many staight hours doing the same thing so got more rotation of jobs implemented. But to me the biggest thing was to get anyone that was rough or abused the cattle off the kill floor and into a differant job.

And you shade? Agendas or horses which is more important?

BTW for those who think I'm a troll just how many trolls do you know with their e-mail and web site addys in the profile. At least try and be realistic.

[shade]

thank you for your answer county and thank you for your efforts to help make the slaughter of cattle more humane. I am anti-horse slaughter.

[SafeHorses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Myself along with other workers met with management to work at getting kill floor equipment upgraded. Convinced them that kill operators do a poor job after so many staight hours doing the same thing so got more rotation of jobs implemented. But to me the biggest thing was to get anyone that was rough or abused the cattle off the kill floor and into a differant job.

And you shade? Agendas or horses which is more important?

BTW for those who think I'm a troll just how many trolls do you know with their e-mail and web site addys in the profile. At least try and be realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assume that since you mention this here...and I know you've mentioned it in other threads...that mannagement did make those changes? That's great! In the same slaugther plant, do they still utilize those changes? Did those changes go anywhere beyond that plant? How many years ago was this? Have any of your changes made the jump over to horse slaughter? I ask this last question, because that is the root of our discussion here.

I don't think you're a troll BTW. I don't think you and I are ever going to agree, but I do have respect for a person who is willing to make a bad situation better.

fototropic...part of me agrees with you, but the other part thinks that this subject should be debated. There are lots of people who have questions, etc and don't want to jump in and in our going back and forth perhaps we are answering questions, helping form opinions, etc. I also want to post ways to reach your elected officials and voice your opinion...so I am not just here to chase my tail (even if it feels that way sometimes). I like the fact that we have been discussing this very important subject...I wish more people would join in.

[county]

I figured that and I'm pro slaughter. As far as slaughter itself if its outlawed then thats the law its not going to change my personal world one way or the other. But I firmly beleive it makes the world of the horses worse that will still be slaughtered. I'd much rather see conditions improved over lots of people talking but never getting their hands dirty. Thats been going on for the 40 years I've raised horses.

Agendas or horses which is more important.

[LouLove]

Thanks Jetsmom - for clarification. I have reread some of onthebit's posts.

Horsemeat is an export-driven economy for foreign nations, and our oversupply of product (mass producing/breeding) leads to Noth America's identity as the "horsemeat shop" where they can purchase at will.

Who is the main provider of horses for slaughter. Does anyone have any viable statistics of how much each industry (PMU, Racing, Pleasure, Sport) produces for slaughter? It would be very interesting to have horses tagged with "their last job" to see where these horses are coming from. Perhaps someone has this info already?

It would also be interesting to see breed of horse. Does anyone have this info anywhere? Warmblood vs QH vs Throughbred vs Standardbred vs Arabian - I think I have seen this somewhere and recall in the US it being Quarterhorses?

[county]

The breed with the highest numbers has the most slaughtered the breed with the lowest numbers has the least slaughtered. Pretty much stands to reason I'd say. But the reason for slaugher is because theres a demand for horse meat. Without it how many horses there are is meaningless.

A debate? To be honest I've seen very little of that here. Theres been name calling, people say if you think any other way then theres then your some sort of crazy person. Theres been people say how disgusting it is for us who live where theres a slaughter plant. Things like that. But debate?

Agendas or horses which is more important?

BTW so lets say the law doesn't get changed in Oct. Then what? Keep on like the last 40 years? Or actually roll up your sleeves and do something constuctive for the horses that start getting slaughered the next day and the days after?

[greysandbays]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pacificsolo:
So, greysandbays, your way to HELP the horses asn CARE for them is to make MORE slaughterhouses? I almost asked "are you INSANE??!!" but decided that it was against my better judgement...something apparently you lack. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Slaugher-bound horses is hauled days and days and days to one of a tiny number of facilities -- or horse is hauled two hours to the nearest of many facilities. Which is WORSE? (Neither is wonderful, but life often gives you the choice only between more or less horrid, not the choice between wonderful and horrid.)

More plants would hopefully be NEW plants, designed specifically with horses in mind, so horse is slaughtered in customized plant or horse is slaughtered in make-shift adapted cattle processing plant? Which is WORSE? (Remember, "wonderful" is not a choice here.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You, like county, refuse to answer OUR questions and it is very annoying to say the least...although, it does convince me that fototropic was right... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif (BTW, welcome to our BB http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
When I figure out what the heck YOUR questions are (besides those which seem to boil down to "HOW COULD YOU BE SO STUPID AS TO THINK THE WAY YOU DO?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!"), I'll get right on that.

In the meantime, I have agonized over my opinon on this subject for years, trying to arrive at a position that does not fly in the face of common sense, practicality, and actual achievablity. I have come to the position that satisfies me (or at least satisfies me as much as anything can, short of my notion of a Perfect World)on not what is GOOD, because GOOD is not going to be attainable on this front, but on what -- of the feasible alternatives -- is LEAST BAD. That, to me, seems to be a well regulated horse-specific slaughter plant in every state.

Philosophically, I have no huge qualms about horsemeat being eaten. I haven't eaten horsemeat, and wouldn't go out of my way to do so (that might be just because I'm lazy and well-fed), but if the horse was already dead, and the roast (or whatever they call cuts of horsemeat) was already cooked, I would try a bit, just to see what it tasted like. Not sure what I would do if I found I liked it. If I was starving to death and eating horsemeat was an option, you bet I'd be eating it. I hope I would have enough sense to cook it first if at all possible. I do have qualms about horses being transported or slaughtered in any manner for which a better and attainable alternative exists.

Completely eliminating horse slaughter does not improve anything. It merely creates or exacerbates different problems, many of them as horrid in their own way as the slaughter.

[Lildunhorse]

You are right, but let me add this. The numbers are as high as they are because the culls make money. If I knew that I was going to be held responsible for the upkeep of any "extras", and not be able to turn them into fast cash at the slaughterhouse, there wouldn't be so many extras.
Which came first; the chicken, or the egg??
And as for the demand, there is a demand for a lot of things we don't need, or want to supply to foreign countries, or our own country for that matter. We won't shrivel up and die if we don't satisfy Europe's demand for horsemeat.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
The breed with the highest numbers has the most slaughtered the breed with the lowest numbers has the least slaughtered. Pretty much stands to reason I'd say. But the reason for slaugher is because theres a demand for horse meat. Without it how many horses there are is meaningless.

A </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

The culls make money. Well of course they do its part of the business same as any livestock breeding business. But lets again be realistic here about it. If my mares produce a foal that sells for $2000 and that mare produces 15 in her lifetime. Do you really think I'll not have the mare because she sells for $300 after shes done producing? Come on its very basic economics here. I'm hardly going to stop breeding to get $30,000 in foals over a mares lifetime because shes only going to sell for $300 at the end. I mean if I had to pay $300 to get rid of her I'm still not going to not raise the $30,000 wortth of fopals. Just how do you think livestock breeding business's pay their bills?

[LouLove]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lildunhorse:
The numbers are as high as they are because the culls make money. If I knew that I was going to be held responsible for the upkeep of any "extras", and not be able to turn them into fast cash at the </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with this reasoning Lildunhorse. I think that if people had to think twice then maybe they wouldn't breed that extra mare this season - or race that horse one last time because if it breaks it can be shipped out and still be worth 300 bucks. It might be worth more money in the end to preserve that horse and sell it as a riding prospect and get 1500 - 2000 for it??? I guess that's in a perfect world...but let's aim for it.

I applaud efforts.

If there are any other Canadians out there lurking about - visit http://www.defendhorsescanada.org

The are petitioning to introduce a Private Mebers Bill in the House of Commons to ban the slaughter of horses and the export of horses for slaughter. This is in the development stage right now and hopefully gets the support from significant sponsors as the American movement has.

[Lildunhorse]

Ok, I don't mean to be stupid, but I totally don't get what you just said.
I was talking about those that use slaughter as a lucrative form of retroactive birth control. And as I've tried to be very polite during this whole debate, I don't appreciate the condescending tone used in this post.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
The culls make money. Well of course they do its part of the business same as any livestock breeding business. But lets again be realistic here about it. If my mares produce a foal that sells for $2000 and that mare produces 15 in her lifetime. Do you really think I'll not have the mare because she sells for $300 after shes done producing? Come on its very basic economics here. I'm hardly going to stop breeding to get $30,000 in foals over a mares lifetime because shes only going to sell for $300 at the end. I mean if I had to pay $300 to get rid of her I'm still not going to not raise the $30,000 wortth of fopals. Just how do you think livestock breeding business's pay their bills? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

If anyone beleives a livestock breeding business will cut back on breeding because the market for culls drops off they have no clue how the industry works. Cull equine prices right now are the lowest since the 60's and equine numbers in the U.S. are at an all time high.

[county]

A lucrative form of birth control. Have no idea what you mean? And if you don't like the way I word my posts go back and look at some of the ones direted at me and tell me what you think of them.

[Lildunhorse]

My experiences have led me to a number of folks here in Washington State alone who don't practice good management of their herds, knowing full well that the slaughterhouse will not only take the ones they don't want to be responsible for, but will give them money for them. That is the situation to which I was referring.
And I'm sorry if people have been less than courteous to you in their responses. That doesn't have anything to do with me, however.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
A lucrative form of birth control. Have no idea what you mean? And if you don't like the way I word my posts go back and look at some of the ones direted at me and tell me what you think of them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[SafeHorses]

Lildun: Me neither actually. And seriously...I have read people taking other people to task for some of the things they've typed, but no name calling. Unless you are one of the people hauling horses or working in the horse slaughterhouses. There was a term used for them...but I didn't think it was that bad.

[LouLove]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
If anyone beleives a livestock breeding business will cut back on breeding because the market for culls drops off they have no clue how the industry works. Cull equine prices right now are the lowest since the 60's and equine numbers in the U.S. are at an all time high. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It isn't necesarily the prices, but the convenience of dropping off say, 6 cull mares at an auction because you can. Livestock Breeders would still drop off culls if they were only getting $50/head for them just so they don't have to stable/feed them. I imagine that if there was a drop-off FEE of $10 a head, those who see horses as commodity would do this just to get rid of the burden of shelter/food/water.

[county]

So in Wa. state just where are the slaughter houses there going to? Can.? Thats not going to change just because its outlawed in the U.S. And if someones breeding just to sell at a meat auction the odds of them quitting are very low. Even if there sale prices cuts in 1/2 they go from top now of .25 a lb to .12 or .13 a lb. A differabnce of $125 there not in it for money there in it just to breed some horses because they thing there cute, etc.

BTW my posts aren't direted at you per sae there to the board. Fact is I seldom even look at who posts and if I do rarely remember names.

[county]

So Safehorses, if I should start calling you and others a " scumbag " for what you do and think you and the others would have no problem with it?

Wanna buy a bridge?

[county]

Briartic mare, yes no matter what price the person would get there going to sell if they have no use for the horse and its going to cost them to keep it around. I certainly keep pets and don't care if they pay their way. But I have no use for a farm full of non producing livestock. Before many years I'd not be getting the morgage paid then there all out of a place to live.

[county]

I think alot of the income or money part of this could be easily understood with a basic economics class. Its no differant then any other business or even job.

If your job pays you say $75,500 a year and you like the job do you quit because your pay is cut to $75,000?

[nettiemaria]

Now this thread looks familiar!

[LouLove]

So county, if (and I am really trying to learn about this from both sides - this is what debate is for - so don't see my questions as naive - but rather as getting my facts straight) all equine slaughterhouses closed in the US, and the only ones available were Canada/Mexico and only via the backroads (so to speak), you really don't think that this would deter some breeders from reducing some of their numbers (as insignificant as they might be)?

As well, as you are a breeder yourself, do you have a higher demand for performance horse or breeding stock (mares).