VENT - WHY is it so hard to find good help?!?!?

[ESG]

So I have a friend who has a fulltime worker - five days a week, 8 hours a day. She very graciously offers to share him with me after I come out of the hospital and find that I am not able to do the things the doctors tell me I will. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I'd go there, but that's a whole 'nother vent. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Anyway, so I pay her groom/farmhand the same hourly rate she does, only for just two hours a day. His duties were to muck seven stalls, clean and refill the water buckets, and turn out the first set of horses. For this, he was to be paid $8.50 for two hours' work, five days a week.

I should have known from the beginning it was going to be difficult. He started out by leaving 30 minutes early to go to his next job, and expecting to be paid for the full two hours. When it was explained to him that he needed to actually work to get paid, he pulled a bit of attitude, but complied. The barn looked good (not great - aisle was raked haphazardly, wash stall was still dirty when he left, stuff like that), and the horses seemed okay with the way he handled them. Things are cool, right?

So he comes to me today and says he can't get the seven stalls done in two hours. This, as he's working on finishing his third stall and he's been there for a total of twenty minutes. Then he complains that I pay him less than the other woman who employs him. Well, yeah - he works eight hours a day for her, and two for me? So then he complains that his nephew, who works for me on Saturday and does a MARVELOUS job, gets paid more than he. I say no - the nephew works three hours a day, the barn is immaculate, and the horses are clean as well, and he gets paid for those three hours. He then asks how much I paid his brother, who was a much better worker than he, and I tell him that Pedro got less per hour than he's getting. I then inform him that if he can't get the work done in the two hours that I've been paying him for, he can go someplace else and I'll do the work and keep the money. He then informs me that he is the ONLY one in the area who will condescend to work anyplace for only two hours a day, and I'll not find anyone else. I tell him that's eminiently suitable, that he is cordially invited to go find another job that pays better, with shorter hours. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Little creep picked the wrong girl to be rude to on a Monday morning, and I let his sorry ass go.

My question is this - WHY is it so damned hard to keep good help, when you pay an honest wage and demand decent work in return? My horses are not rank nor hard to handle. My barn is not difficult to clean. and is safe and pleasant to work in. I keep plenty of good bedding on hand, so it's easy to keep the stalls clean. My property is nice, and my boarders are rarely around when he is, so what the f*&k? Am I to coddle every person who mucks stalls for me? Does everyone have this issue? Jeez. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[ESG]

So I have a friend who has a fulltime worker - five days a week, 8 hours a day. She very graciously offers to share him with me after I come out of the hospital and find that I am not able to do the things the doctors tell me I will. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I'd go there, but that's a whole 'nother vent. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Anyway, so I pay her groom/farmhand the same hourly rate she does, only for just two hours a day. His duties were to muck seven stalls, clean and refill the water buckets, and turn out the first set of horses. For this, he was to be paid $8.50 for two hours' work, five days a week.

I should have known from the beginning it was going to be difficult. He started out by leaving 30 minutes early to go to his next job, and expecting to be paid for the full two hours. When it was explained to him that he needed to actually work to get paid, he pulled a bit of attitude, but complied. The barn looked good (not great - aisle was raked haphazardly, wash stall was still dirty when he left, stuff like that), and the horses seemed okay with the way he handled them. Things are cool, right?

So he comes to me today and says he can't get the seven stalls done in two hours. This, as he's working on finishing his third stall and he's been there for a total of twenty minutes. Then he complains that I pay him less than the other woman who employs him. Well, yeah - he works eight hours a day for her, and two for me? So then he complains that his nephew, who works for me on Saturday and does a MARVELOUS job, gets paid more than he. I say no - the nephew works three hours a day, the barn is immaculate, and the horses are clean as well, and he gets paid for those three hours. He then asks how much I paid his brother, who was a much better worker than he, and I tell him that Pedro got less per hour than he's getting. I then inform him that if he can't get the work done in the two hours that I've been paying him for, he can go someplace else and I'll do the work and keep the money. He then informs me that he is the ONLY one in the area who will condescend to work anyplace for only two hours a day, and I'll not find anyone else. I tell him that's eminiently suitable, that he is cordially invited to go find another job that pays better, with shorter hours. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Little creep picked the wrong girl to be rude to on a Monday morning, and I let his sorry ass go.

My question is this - WHY is it so damned hard to keep good help, when you pay an honest wage and demand decent work in return? My horses are not rank nor hard to handle. My barn is not difficult to clean. and is safe and pleasant to work in. I keep plenty of good bedding on hand, so it's easy to keep the stalls clean. My property is nice, and my boarders are rarely around when he is, so what the f*&k? Am I to coddle every person who mucks stalls for me? Does everyone have this issue? Jeez. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[A. P.]

Umm, I wouldn't drive to a second job to do that much work for $8.50. Depending on the distance, that's barely gas money. Not even even back the bad ol days when I earned minimum wage, and raked in a grand total of $75 per week. It's just not enough to make it worthwhile. And I recently had a horse-feeding gig, and I could not get all the tasks you have listed plus feeding done in two hours for 3 horses, let alone 7, and I was getting paid $250/month (approx 12/day).

[Critters Everywhere]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ESG:

For this, he was to be paid $8.50 for two hours' work, five days a week.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, please tell me that you meant $8.50 per hour for two hours work? Because if not, well, I'm not surprised that you can't get good help. That would be $4.25/hour, which isn't even federal minimum wage.

[DMK]

Even assuming $17 total... 7 stalls, water buckets, t/o horses?

Obviously it sounds fair to you, but so far it sounds like not many potential workers agree.

[county]

I pay people $10 an hour to do a whole lot less then you described. You want good help you pay for it just like anything else. You pay for poor help thats what ya get.

[Critters Everywhere]

For comparision, my trainer pays $2/stall for cleaning and that is JUST cleaning & rebedding the stall. If she wants them to do turnout, feeding, cleaning the aisles/common areas, that is all extra. And this is in an area with a ton of teenagers/college kids looking to earn a few extra dollars, a very high unemployment rate, and few minimum wage type jobs (ie, there's one McDonalds & one DQ within a 30 mile radius).

[3fatponies]

When I have done "petsitting" for horses, I charge a MINIMUM of $25 a day, even if there is only one horse and I only need to be there to clean the stall and feed in the evening. For that, I will feed and clean stalls for up to two horses, but only if I need to go there once a day. If I need to go there morning and evening, there are more than two horses or I need to do anything more than turnout or bring in, the price goes up. I do it more as a favor than for the money because with my own critters and a full-time job, it's more of a hassle than anything. Even when I have done it while unemployed, I have found that doing it for less isn't worth the gas and time.

Have you thought about hiring a high-school kid instead?

[SaddleFitterVA]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DMK:
Even assuming $17 total... 7 stalls, water buckets, t/o horses?

Obviously it sounds fair to you, but so far it sounds like not many potential workers agree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When my boarder comes out and does this routine-when the horses are in, for 7 stalls, buckets, t/o & feed (food prepared) it takes about 2 hours, and I allow for $20 credit. $10/hour. And, she comes to the barn anyway to ride (or should have it in her plans anyway http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). When it is feed only, horses have been out, it takes about 30 minutes to do the routine, but I still allow $10.

I know it is Houston, and ostensibly less expensive, and also ostensibly you have tons of cheap, immigrant labor, but the only way I'd expect to find someone that cheap was if they were a LOCAL homeschooled kid, who didn't have fuel expenses.

Mel

[findeight]

$10 an hour is the low side of the going rate for barn help if you want somebody halfway decent.
That's what the buger joints and grocery stores start the 16 year olds at around here-and they have some benefits like discounts.

[tidy rabbit]

I'd have to agree with the others on this post. It's not enough money to make anyone interested.

When I have people come help me (and unfortunately it's not often enough) I pay a minimum of $30.00 a day for 2 horses and now that it's 3 horses, 40 a day. The last time it was only the evening chores that were done and I paid 40 dollars.

But, I do agree it's hard to find people who want to work, but by the same tolken you've got to pay a wage that will motivate someone.

[Nancy!]

I think that the amount of work is okay for the time allowed but I pay $10.00 per hour. It takes approx. 1 hour to do feed my horses - most out on pasture. 1 hour to do stalls. So I pay $30.00 a day.

I think if they have to drive there that since the price of gas is so much, I would pay more.

Nancy!

[cornbread]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I pay people $10 an hour to do a whole lot less then you described. You want good help you pay for it just like anything else. You pay for poor help thats what ya get. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep, you get what you pay for.

I don't know anyone who'd drive out of his way to do two hours' worth of work. Even if $8.50 is the going rate for the area, if I were in your situation, I'd have offered signficantly more.

You do need the extra help.
It's only temporary.
You won't find someone to work only 2 hours per day.

If you have boarders, maybe they would like the opportunity to work off some board. But for $17 for all that work, I doubt it. (Round it up to an even $20, woman! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif )

[pegasus209]

sorry, but, I gotta agree with the others.. that's alot of work to get done in 2 hrs, plus not enough compensation.
When I go out of town, I pay a friend $10-15.00. to do 1 feeding, turnout, and clean stall once.( 1 trip to barn she was making anyway) If I need help for a day and a half, I give her 20.00-25.00. (I rarely take a full 2 days away from my horse! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif ) I have been taken advantage of waaay too much, so I always try to compensate enough so everybody is happy.

[Reynard Ridge]

Going rate around here is $10/hour. Also really hard to find someone for 2 hours a day.

[Alagirl]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Oh my Goodness!

I see most everybody lives in high dollar areas...around my neck of the woods, 8.50 an hour is GREAT money especialy for unskilled labor!

It ain't like the specifics haven't been set upfront, sorry, you agree to work two hours a day for set money, you better d*mn well do your job! I worked a lot harder for a lot less money, and it was my only job - I was just lucky I didn't have to live off of it!

And last, *If you never work for more than what you are payed for you will never be payed more than what you worked!* Old German Proverb!

As I understand, it was supposed to be a temporary situation...not permanent...even if the money isn't great, how about being a Gentleman and suck it up!

I tell you honey, what you need is a fresh Mexican, one who will still work for a buck fifty and sleep in the barn and loffing every second of it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Me thinks the dude though he had you over the barrel! Blackmail for more dough! Don't let the door hitya where the Good Lord split ya!

[3fatponies]

"A Fresh Mexican?" My, oh my.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[PamZ]

One easy way to settle this type of problem is to pay by the job. Have a set rate, say $20 a day (assuming you think it should take 2 hours). Also, you need to have strict instructions as to what is expected, even going so far as writing it down so they can't "forget" anything. If he gets all the work done in 30 minutes, he gets $20. If it takes him 3 hours, he still gets $20. You'd be amazed how quickly people can work if they are getting paid by the job. I have done this for years with my horses and have never been unhappy.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Well THAT was lovely and P.C. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif
I pay my crackhead, clinically insane, drive-her-both-ways-because-she-hasn't-owned-a valid- driver's lic.-since-birth, barngirl.. $15.00 an hour.

[Alagirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3fatponies:
"A Fresh Mexican?" My, oh my.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Oh get over it!

If I had said *hungry* it would have not sounded any better, you know hungry for the American dream, actually earn the money you get...

Like a German sheep farmer put it: All Turkish people ought be to send back after a year and new one brought in* Sounds really bad, but it was ment with a http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif because the *Newbies* would buy his old rams and ewes (which hardly anybody else wants) while those folks who have been in the country for a longer time have discovered the more delicate taste of lamb as well as everybody else...

Sooooo, my point before the PC police went http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif the OP needs to find somebody who thinks that 5.50$ is great money. And lets face it, mucking seven stalls is not that heavy a job!

Too bad the commute would kill me, I'd come to work for you in heartbeat!

[horse watcher]

Look at what you pay and then wonder why you can't get any good help. If you pay $10/hour for 35 hours a week and then multiply that by 52 weeks you would make an annual income of $18,200. And this probably does not include any benefits, sick days or anything else. In Canada that is below the poverty level as I must assume it is in the states. And all this to work with dangerouse animals, where injuries are common, working conditions are bad etc. Often people do this for the love of horses but to think of this as any way to get ahead are nuts. As a owner of horses I know the expense and the fine line between profit and expenses but do we really think that this is good pay for the job.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alagirl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3fatponies:
"A Fresh Mexican?" My, oh my.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Oh get over it!

If I had said *hungry* it would have not sounded any better, you know hungry for the American dream, actually earn the money you get...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but that's assuming that working with horses is unskilled labor and akin to ditch-digging. It's not, and I wouldn't want someone handling my horses who didn't know anything about them. Maybe it's great money where you are, but it must not be where the OP is, or there wouldn't be a problem finding good help for it.

And btw, I am not P.C.--I am courteous. I don't mind offending people with my unpopular opinions, but I try to base them on individuals, not gross generalizations.

[Alagirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horse watcher:
Look at what you pay and then wonder why you can't get any good help. If you pay $10/hour for 35 hours a week and then multiply that by 52 weeks you would make an annual income of $18,200. And this probably does not include any benefits, sick days or anything else. In Canada that is below the poverty level as I must assume it is in the states. And all this to work with dangerouse animals, where injuries are common, working conditions are bad etc. Often people do this for the love of horses but to think of this as any way to get ahead are nuts. As a owner of horses I know the expense and the fine line between profit and expenses but do we really think that this is good pay for the job. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


While you are right, wages for unskilled labor are not any higher! Here in the South-East, people go to work for a lot less, even with degrees and such. It's not paying your way and with 5.50$ being the legal minimum, you barely bring home ten grand! Not enough, to either live or die!

But that is where personal responsibility comes in, either go to school to get more money, or work two lousy jobs to make ends meet..


BTW for all those http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif people, I have worked in the agricultural sector, and I have to say, I'd rather work allong side some Hispanics, than your everage minimum wage looser...they work you into the ground and think nothing of it, untill the job is done! My hat's off to them!

Nice refreshing change of pace compared to the locals where half was out on probabtion and the other half had outstanding warrants! My what fun when half your crew dives into the daisies when the Sheriff drives by!

BTW I am NOT PC, and hope I never will! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Oh perfect, pay someone an insulting amount of money. Behave like a vile, arrogent racist F@#$^ to your barn help...and then turn them loose on your animals. Christ, behave like that to any of the lovely Mexican grooms that have worked so hard for so many folks and horses, day in, day out for years...and you ain't makin' it off the show grounds in one piece.
...and ESG, you pay MORE for occasional spot work than you do for fulltime help.

Shame on both of you.

[Imaginagent]

Well, it does seem a little cheap. We board horses at our farm, and I get $3 a stall to clean, so that would be $21 right there. Plus the time. The stalls get picked once a day (or night when in at night) and cleaned once a day. Even so, I have to plan at least about 2 hours to clean 5 stalls, clean water buckets, hay and bring in or out. It can go up to 3 hours, and that is me working at a pretty good pace, with most of the stalls fairly neat. (Some of the horses do trash them.) It takes me at least 10-15 minutes to clean a stall, and then extra time for hay, water, bringing in.

[trubandloki]

Wow!
Some of you people are well paid for barn labor.
I was getting paid $1 per stall for stall cleaning. That included picking the stall, putting in new bedding and sweeping up the barn when I was done.

[3fatponies]

For a buck a stall, I think you should revolt.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[horse watcher]

Here in Ontario, minimum wage is around $7.65 /hour. I consider barn help need to have to know something about handling horses. These guys are big and can easily cause trouble just leading them in. I respect that most people who handle horses have a lot of knowledge and the hours stink. My daughter did this job part-time for the last 4 years and is looking to another career now even though she loves horses. As we have a number of horses of our own, the possiblity of riding is not of interest to her as she has too many to ride now.

[TheJenners]

When I worked a large barn, I was paid $35 a day to feed 50 horses (inside and out) t/o, muck 21 stalls, bring in and feed all the horses again. I've since moved and learned that it has gone up to $50. On days I didn't work, the BO fed and had someone else muck, paid them $7 an hour and put a cap on the time there at 3 hours for 21 stalls.

When I first moved up here, I worked part of my board off by turning out AMs, feeding and mucking eight stalls at minimum wage ($7.17 or something like that). A bigger barn in my area was paying $1 a stall, and that is mucking and rebedding. Now that I own my place, I offer boarder the option of mucking out paddocks (NOT stalls, I loff mucking stalls http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) for $5 an hour to work off some board. Ridiculously low pay you may say, but it's a ridiculously easy job. No brain power needed, no fine motor skills required.

I think ESG's pay was fine, but the person working doesn't want to waste the gas $ for two hours worth of work. Perhaps offering the job to a boarder would be better?

I'm not sure where everyone else lives, but can I come muck your stalls? Beats dealing with my coworkers, hell I shovel it there too!

[Sabina]

That's about the number of horses and pens/stalls I was turning out, feeding the hay, cleaning up, and keeping water up for, for ourselves, this summer when everybody was on half time drylot. This included spot applications of ointment or insect repellant, and flymasks. Two hours,tractor the manure out to the pile, AND sweep the aisle and tidy up? Hah. No way.
Do it for somebody else for $17 and drive to it? Nope. Ain't happening. Most people can muck a stall...few have enough brains to lead a horse safely out to pasture. Welcome to the world of inflation.

[Nicker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> When my boarder comes out and does this routine-when the horses are in, for 7 stalls, buckets, t/o & feed (food prepared) it takes about 2 hours, and I allow for $20 credit. $10/hour. And, she comes to the barn anyway to ride (or should have it in her plans anyway ). When it is feed only, horses have been out, it takes about 30 minutes to do the routine, but I still allow $10. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ditto! I pay $20 to feed 7 horses, t/o and clean 6 stalls. Stalls only is $10 and feed and t/o only is $10. Last time I went out of town I paid a bit more due to the gas inflation at the time. But this is one reason why I pay by the job and not by the hour. I'd love to pay more, good help is priceless, but to do so I'd have to up what I charge for board.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Alagirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Racetb:
Oh perfect, pay someone an insulting amount of money. Behave like a vile, arrogent racist F@#$^ to your barn help...and then turn them loose on your animals. Christ, behave like that to any of the lovely Mexican grooms that have worked so hard for so many folks and horses, day in, day out for years...and you ain't makin' it off the show grounds in one piece.
...and ESG, you pay MORE for occasional spot work than you do for fulltime help.

Shame on both of you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I take it the untold explicits are directed towards me (and once more I am labled for telling the way it is, never mind how I actually feel about it...)

Fact of the matter is the lovely *Mexicans* I am treating so badly have a 1000% better work ethic than your average Joe from around here. So, where am I racist?!

Sorry Hon, as my handle/nickname states, I am in the deep, DEEP south, Alabama rounds most category of anything out way in the bottom...wages are as low as the South is Deep!

And where do I need to be asamed of this - other than that I haven't moved yet, that is.

I have to deal with the same low wages on my end, try to squeeze blood out of a turnip, babe, it ain't gonna happen!


But the problem of the OP, the SOB didn't do the job he agreed to do, sorry, no excuse, I will come down on you like a ton of bricks, and I don't care if you are from South, North, East or West of the Border or purple with green polka dots!

[circusponydreams]

I've done a countless number of temporary barn-help jobs like this over the years, for people who were going away or had gotten hurt, etc. If you want someone who's thorough and even a little knowledgeable, you simply have to pay enough to make it worth their while. And it helps not to act like a jerk. If I were the worker, who did YOU a favor by agreeing to come out for so little time and money, only to have you bitching me out for leaving half an hour early or whatever, I would have been straight out the door too.

For your situation, it sounds like a boarder or a nearby teenager would be your best bet - someone who would be around anyway, and would be willing to help you out.

[cornbread]

Okay, had to self-edit for excess snark.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Alagirl, I'm certain the "fresh Mexicans" will be thrilled with your condescension. Thrilled to know you prefer them to white trash parolees and have no qualms with feeling entitled to pay below minimum wage....and I believe the worker in question DID speak up directly to ESG, which is more than I would have done! Doesn't anyone else find this mindset [and post] offensive and disturbing beyond words?

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cornbread:
Okay, had to self-edit for excess snark. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wish you hadn't--that was the funniest thing I have read all day! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Racetb:
Alagirl, I'm certain the "fresh Mexicans" will be thrilled with your condescension. Thrilled to know you prefer them to white trash parolees and have no qualms with feeling entitled to pay below minimum wage....and I believe the worker in question DID speak up directly to ESG, which is more than I would have done! Doesn't anyone else find this mindset [and post]
offensive and disturbing beyond words? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep....

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Bless you 3fatponies http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Racetb:
Oh perfect, pay someone an insulting amount of money.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">I'm sorry that seems like "an insulting amount of money" to you. Around here, minimum is what you get in Burger King or McDonalds, and it ain't even close to $8.50. One of my students, who works as a seating hostess at the local Chili's, gets $6/hour and is grateful for it. And she works a lot more hours and is a lot less happy with her environment than if she were at the barn with her horse and me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif</span>

Behave like a vile, arrogent racist F@#$^ to your barn help...and then turn them loose on your animals. Christ, behave like that to any of the lovely Mexican grooms that have worked so hard for so many folks and horses, day in, day out for years...and you ain't makin' it off the show grounds in one piece.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">And if this man were one of those wonderful Mexican grooms that we've all encountered (which his brother was, who worked for me until this July), I'd agree with you. But, as Alagirl very correctly surmised, he thought he had me over a barrel and tried to take advantage. He's been working for me for three weeks, had absolutely NO trouble getting the work done in 1 1/2 hours, and now is holding me up for more money but no more work? Sorry, but I'll do the work myself. </span>http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

...and ESG, you pay MORE for occasional spot work than you do for fulltime help.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">This wasn't to have been a temporary situation. His wife is pregnant and he wants extra money to save. Commendable, but that doesn't mean he can extort more money for no more work and have me continue to employ him. And considering he's making a minimum of $500 weekly with no taxes and no bennies taken out? Sorry, but there are lots of folks around here that make a hell of a lot less than that. Guess the answer is just to "go legal", pay bennies, and minimum wage. And then you'll get NO help. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif</span>

Shame on both of you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Bullshit. Shame on me for sticking to a bargain I made? That this piece of cheese didn't have a problem with until today? He's been working for me for three weeks; if he REALLY had a problem with the work or the hours, I doubt he'd have finished his chores EARLY and gone to his next job. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Oh, and just to clarify; this person DOES NOT feed. All he does is muck seven stalls (which I've seen him accomplish in 45 minutes), turn four horses out (walking not quite 100 feet to the furthest turnout http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ), and fill water buckets. When I'm healthy, I can get that done in under two hours. I (correctly) assumed that a healthy, 30ish man could work at least as fast as a 40ish woman with health issues that prevented her from doing the work in the first place. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </span>

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

[Deep breath]..EXTORT more money from you????!!!..and how is he earning $500 tax free from you for a couple of hours @ $8.50????...and it's NOT MacDonalds..It's someone handling YOUR ANIMALS. I am one of the easiest going h/j person[s] on this forum and quick with a joke, but you two have truly left me with an awful, bereft feeling in my gut. I've got to bow out of this one.

[ESG]

That might be best. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You seem to be ignoring the fact that our COL here (which appears to be far less than yours) has a direct effect on wages. Going rate around here is actually less than $8.50/hour. I was paying Juan's brother Pedro about $7 an hour, for the same work. Pedro didn't have a problem with it, and was happy to have both the work and the money. He worked for about three different people, and had housing provided for him, plus transport to the jobs he couldn't walk to. Juan has his own house and transportation, so I think he deserves a little more and I'm happy to pay that. He also works for at least two other people besides me, getting $8.50/hour from all of them. Again, this is a hell of a lot more than minimum wage, something he's not capable of earning since his English leaves a lot to be desired. And since I'm not responsible for getting his wife pregnant, I think he's going to have to work to foot the bill for it. Sorry, but if you're coming into the country and want to take from the economy without contributing to it, you take what you can get. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And just FYI, I was paying $8.50/hour during season in Wellington in 2004 for barn help. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Wellington on what planet? The rest of us were tipping the bathroom attendents more than that.
Somebody help me out here...I can't do this. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[ESG]

Wellington, Florida. Seven and a half miles from the showgrounds, about twelve from White Fences. I can show you the cancelled checks if it would make you feel better. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[MistyBlue]

I have no idea where ESG is so have no idea what the economy and going rates for most things there are. Vost of stable work does vary wildly from area to area. I'm in CT and we're pretty expensive on most things here, which we're used to. However, I have read other posts on what some folks make at some stables and have thought, "Hell, I'll sell my own place and go work for them!" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I personally think it's great that some places pay a living wage for any equine job...as most of us know that's not always possible unless you're willing to go without many everyday luxuries for your living wage. (which was never an issue for me, I would rather do what I love and have a junk car than work in a cubicle)
But I will agree that on the outside Alagirls' post did sound condescending towards Hispanics. Not so much the gist of the post if read between the lines...but the terms used and the costs quoted. I'd never pay anyone $1.50 an hour for anything. Heck, you can't get the neighborhood teen to rake your leaves for less than $25.
I'm *assuming* Alagirl was meaning to convey that many immigrant barn workers from Mexico have a better work ethic, better experience and will work for less wages than our domestic folks. I'm *hoping* she didn't mean just grab a fresh Mexican newly here to exploit them and their dreams by paying them next to nothing for work nobody else seems to want to do. I'm also hoping she has a better outlook on immigrant workers than another poster on here ...'from fl."

[Xctrygirl]

Ok lets see if my math will hold up here...

When I was renting a cottage, I had to clean 10 stalls one morning a week to earn off $100 a month. So thats 40 stalls, for $100. Lets see roughly $2.50 a stall. So for 7 stalls I would be paid $17.50 at that rate.

When I was a barn manager in '92 I was paid $250 a week for care of 6 horses 5.5 days a week, all day. Works out to more like $2/stall. Again 7 stalls would have been $14.00

Here and now at the track, we pay our grooms (as do most but not all track barns) $100/horse per week, for 6 days work. Maxing out at around 5 horses per groom. So figure that would make the stall part of the job, 30 stalls out of $500 but not all stalls *Thinking* Lets say $50 a day in stall mucking. Would make it $10 per stall, so $70.

Ok bottom line, you're paying diddly. Now he agreed to diddly so thats his own fault. He did approach you, good for him. Bad that you see it as trying to milk you for more. Its very possible he thought that the money would even out. And it took 3 weeks for the (Possibly hormonal) pregnant wife to chime in and point out that its not a lot of profit for the work and time involved.

Now here's what I am going to try to say diplomatically,

Stall cleaning is repetitive, non demanding, manual labor. It takes time and effort and since care of an animal in involved, should be done thoughtfully and well.

What effort a worker puts into his work definitely helps define their value. But so too can it be said that what appreciation an employer shows to a worker defines what kind of value they have as a boss.

I know many people who think they could retire on the opinions they hold of themselves but would be broke in doing so. And likewise many others who would live like royalty if their reputations were money.

As a horse owner, farm owner, and heck human being, each of us has to determine for ourselves which assets in workers and colleagues we value most and least. For me I value loyalty and genuine trying. I will help ANYONE who shows gumption and desire to do these jobs. Because we all know how little horse workers are appreciated by mainstream (office, store etc.) workers. I fail to have the need to further denegrate people who want to succeed in this difficult world. So I will try to build their skills and help them to achieve a foothold from which to scale to a higher and better job in the future. So that they may reap the rewards both financially and satisfactionary of their jobs.

ESG- You have different values it seems. But I won't fault different. I acknowledge, and so should the rest of us here, that for the Ying's there are also Yang's. For the Vanilla's there are Double Fat loaded Chocolate swirls.

We all love horses and all need to keep our $$ in line to afford them. Let's not jump on ESG even if we differ from how she does things. Its quite possible that her (definite) frugality has some upswing like better helping her horses lack for wants in life.

~Emily

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ESG:
That might be best. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You seem to be ignoring the fact that our COL here (which appears to be far less than yours) has a direct effect on wages. Going rate around here is actually less than $8.50/hour. I was paying Juan's brother Pedro about $7 an hour, for the same work. Pedro didn't have a problem with it, and was happy to have both the work and the money. He worked for about three different people, and had housing provided for him, plus transport to the jobs he couldn't walk to. Juan has his own house and transportation, so I think he deserves a little more and I'm happy to pay that. He also works for at least two other people besides me, getting $8.50/hour from all of them. Again, this is a hell of a lot more than minimum wage, something he's not capable of earning since his English leaves a lot to be desired. And since I'm not responsible for getting his wife pregnant, I think he's going to have to work to foot the bill for it. Sorry, but if you're coming into the country and want to take from the economy without contributing to it, you take what you can get. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And just FYI, I was paying $8.50/hour during season in Wellington in 2004 for barn help. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Honestly, if this logic works so well for you, why the vent about finding good help? Because for most of us a vent usually happens after repeated experiences, not just one bad incident (oh, OK - one incident if you are a teenager with all the self restraint that comes with the territory).

Yeesh, ESG comes on and says "can't find good help"! Three pages of "That cost structure ain't working around here" or "I wouldn't do it for that amount" ensue, but apparently everyone else is well, just not clever enough to know how it works in Houston or Wellington?

Now come again, how's that help situation working out for you?

[ESG]

Typical of you, DMK. Just take someone else's experience and the norm in some part of the country other than yours, and it's wrong. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Okay, I'm guilty. I'm a cheapskate asshole who had the temerity to want a worker to do the job they were paying for. String me up from the highest tree you can find. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Happy now?

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Racetb:
Wellington on what planet? The rest of us were tipping the bathroom attendents more than that.
Somebody help me out here...I can't do this. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just let it go if it's making you crazy--apparently others didn't find it offensive, and as we know from our media, if the public believes, it must be true.... There is no point in talking about this or anything else with someone who doesn't want to hear what you have to say, and if both parties don't listen, then nothing changes. The best thing to do when you see or hear something that you find offensive and no one wants to hear you is to make sure that you would never be guilty of that. If everyone did that, the world would change for the better. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

I KNOW I'm not the only one feeling awfully queasy at the "between the lines" ugliness that pervades a couple of these posts. Forget about the COL discussion. There's something far more insidious and evil in there. Got to go...I think I see the INS coming up the drive and a cross burning on the front lawn.

[ESG]

Xctrygirl and racetb, I think I have the answer.

You see, both of you live where it gets cold. Living in the cold country and working with horses pretty much sucks. I know - I lived in eastern MA for three years and found that out firsthand. Dry-stall during a New England winter is every Southerner's worst nightmare. I'd never coped with water buckets that couldn't be pried from the wall because they were frozen there, nor not being able to turn horses out for days on end because of the glue-like mud during spring thaw. That's why you all pay so much more for help - because nobody really wants to be there, especially in the winter.

OTOH, in FL as in TX, it's nice during the winter. Transplanted Northerners might bitch because the temperature got up to 87 degrees today, but you don't hear me complaining; I'll take that over 18 inches of snow any day, something I experienced every Thanksgiving I was unlucky enough to live north of the Mason-Dixon line. Blecchh. You couldn't PAY me enough to live and work there again. And I strongly suspect that most of our neighbors to the south feel the same way. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

People pay to be in a warm climate during the winter. One way or another, they pay. Tourists and horse show competitors pay more to be in Swellington than most places. Not because the showgrounds are so wonderful (I suspect Ocala's are better, though I've never seen them), or the local nightlife is so exciting, but because it's warm. You can wear shorts on Thanksgiving. The grooms can live in stalls ( and often do) during season, and get to work in a nice warm climate for decent wages. Doesn't make it right or wrong, that's just the way it is. If you want to be where it's comfy, you have to pay - one way or another. A testament to this statement is why Pedro left my (and the two other ladies who employed him) employ. Are you ready for this? He went back to Mexico in mid July because Houston was too hot for him. It was more comfortable in his hometown. Kinda says it all, doesn't it?

Anyway, that's not really the issue. The real issue here is that after three weeks, the person I hired to do very specific chores for a very specific price, suddenly decided to up the ante and demand more money. I don't know how the rest of you were raised, but when I make a deal, I stick to it. I expect the same of the people for whom I work, and who work for me. If they can't deal with that, it's time to say goodbye, which I did this morning. I fail to understand why I'm a cheapskate or a wretch because I expect someone to honor an agreement they made.

JME. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[nightsong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horse watcher:
Look at what you pay and then wonder why you can't get any good help. If you pay $10/hour for 35 hours a week and then multiply that by 52 weeks you would make an annual income of $18,200. And this probably does not include any benefits, sick days or anything else. In Canada that is below the poverty level as I must assume it is in the states. And all this to work with dangerouse animals, where injuries are common, working conditions are bad etc. Often people do this for the love of horses but to think of this as any way to get ahead are nuts. As a owner of horses I know the expense and the fine line between profit and expenses but do we really think that this is good pay for the job. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, that's about TWICE the American poverty level, which is set esentially at minimum wage ($5.15 per hour), working full-time (40 hours per week), which comes out to nine-thousand and some dollars per year.

And where I am, less than that is a VERY GOOD standard of living. And, by the way, ESG, I'm with you. If you contract with someone for a job with specific duties and at a specific salary, they have an obligation to do tht job.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Last one. If the New England winters gave me the convictions I have today...and heart and mind to be sickened by some of what I'm reading..bring on the Ice Age!!...and God forbid the man might have been coming to you openly and honestly after three weeks to discuss hours and pay arrangements that weren't working out. Asking for a raise is acceptable..every boss in the free world doesn't accuse "the cheese" of not honouring an agreement ...he hasn't broken any DEAL.

[harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens]

I think the issue is, not one of minimum wage, it is more one of money paid for value given. We have a helper at our home stable, he feeds,waters, cleans stalls, adds bedding when needed, turns horses out - with the proper boots and sheets or blankets, watches to make sure they are behaving, brings them in, brushes them, reblankets, and puts them away. He is responsible for ordering feed, maintaining the fence, and on several instances he has gone to shows with my wife to help. This young man is invaluable, he lives in the guest wing of our house, and never hesitates to pitch in. He goes to night school to learn English. I would be embarassed to pay him only $10.00 an hour, and I would be mortified to search for a "fresh Mexican" to replace him. The care and concern he shows towards our animals is worth far more than minimum wage to us.

[Luvinfoofy]

I don't know ESG, it gets freaking cold here and I've been paid much less than that for barn chores! I got paid $6/hr to clean stalls on a regular basis (I think there were 6), $8/hr to do full chores when the BO was out of town, $5.35 working in a drugstore,..

Guys, it totally depends on WHERE you live! I'd die to work for more than $10 an hour WITH horses! My boyfriend went to college for 7.5 years and he's getting paid less than that! That is an extreme case, but c'mon, you have to realize that not everyone lives in an area where you can get $10/hr working at a gas station! (It's more like $6 here!)

[Equibrit]

You pay peanuts - you get monkeys!

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by harryjohnson:
I think the issue is, not one of minimum wage, it is more one of money paid for value given. We have a helper at our home stable, he feeds,waters, cleans stalls, adds bedding when needed, turns horses out - with the proper boots and sheets or blankets, watches to make sure they are behaving, brings them in, brushes them, reblankets, and puts them away. He is responsible for ordering feed, maintaining the fence, and on several instances he has gone to shows with my wife to help. This young man is invaluable, he lives in the guest wing of our house, and never hesitates to pitch in. He goes to night school to learn English. I would be embarassed to pay him only $10.00 an hour, and I would be mortified to search for a "fresh Mexican" to replace him. The care and concern he shows towards our animals is worth far more than minimum wage to us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you hit the nail on the head about good employer/employee relations by showing respect and getting it in return. Your young man sounds like he is lucky to work with you, and vice versa. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Trakehner]

Damn, and I thought Lincoln freed the slaves....wait a minute...he did!

The joy of shoveling horse excrement, sweeping, and then putting up with bitching about being overpayed...yeah, boy! Makes one wonder why it'd be hard to get help.

Get an American worker, don't hire some illegal Mexican and whine you had to since you couldn't afford to pay non-slave wages, and pay them a decent American wage.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ESG:
Typical of you, DMK. Just take someone else's experience and the norm in some part of the country other than yours, and it's wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Typical ESG. Not even closely related to what I said. I pointed out that a pretty good chunk of people came on and said that wouldn't cut it where they lived. Some of them even lived in places where the COL was lower than Houston... or Wellington.

I sincerely hope it works out for you - finding good barn help is hard even if you pay more than the prevailing rate. I doubt you will get much argument there. But come on here and vent about topic A, get 3 pages with a majority of people saying your idea of an equitable solution is not realistic for them and somehow I'm the one with an unrealistic expectation? Oooohkey dokey - I'm sure that makes sense somewhere...

[3fatponies]

ESG--for what it is worth, people didn't go crazy until the "fresh Mexican" comment was made(and not by you, I know). That was a little much for most of us, and seems to have tipped things into a less friendly zone. While I understand your comments about honoring a promise, employment is generally "at will," meaning that the employee can walk away for no other reason than they feel like it. I can't fault that either--I have walked away from jobs that I didn't like, where I felt that the pay was not all compensatory for the situation. So while it leaves you in a frustrating situation, I don't think you should let this make you crazy either. If that is a fair rate for your area, then why not call some local stables and see if there is someone who needs a couple of extra hours of work?

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

roflmao!...I think http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Xctrygirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ESG:
Xctrygirl and racetb, I think I have the answer.

You see, both of you live where it gets cold. Living in the cold country and working with horses pretty much sucks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So close, but no. That cottage example was based in Southern Pines, NC. Which is also warm in the winter. And on top of that since we have warmed up to 70 degrees this week here I hadn't even thought about the cold. In the cold I'd say its worse but doable to handle the stalls and buckets.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anyway, that's not really the issue. The real issue here is that after three weeks, the person I hired to do very specific chores for a very specific price, suddenly decided to up the ante and demand more money. I don't know how the rest of you were raised, but when I make a deal, I stick to it. I expect the same of the people for whom I work, and who work for me. If they can't deal with that, it's time to say goodbye, which I did this morning. I fail to understand why I'm a cheapskate or a wretch because I expect someone to honor an agreement they made.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are not a cheapskate because of the agreement. You're being perceived as a cheaper person due to the amount you stated you're paying. The holding the line on the agreement part is different.

As far as that goes yes on the surface I agree with that commitment to the deal. HOWEVER, there does come a time or occasion where the hired person voicing up and asking for more $$ with specific reasons, may make a good case. (I am not applying that here 100%) Even after short term it can happen and the re-negotiation can lead to a much better and longer working relationship.

I mean say you make a deal with groom "X" and it starts off as one amount of work and then expands, due to supply and demand, to a different job. Not largely, say 2 new horses. Do you renegotiate at every new head? Does a friends' horse coming in for a week of showing cause you to increase your pay? And if not, how come you don't give groom "X" a bit more money since clearly His duties have changed? Now extend that a bit...

Groom "X" desires to work more hours and you want more horses for more income. What kind of contract do you have in writing at that point? None? (Like most other horse jobs)

If so, then the terms are eligible to be negotiated, because they're not solid in a tangible, evidentiary way. Its not a guarantee that either party will get what they want during said negotiation, nor is it always a great idea, but lacking solid evidence, why not try to stretch the rubber boundaries of the pay or hours or work load?

Perfect example, a few years back my job expanded considerably. But in doing so, my employer didn't automaticaly up the ante. I loved the job, was not going anywhere, and feared being let go if I did mention the higher costs I was taking on to keep up with my new duties.

Finally I got the courage to speak to my employer and lay it on the line. Never was there a negotiation when my job changed at any point. Never did we say "Ok stop, you changed what I do and never asked. And I in turn never said 'Hey I need more $$'"

Jobs shift constantly. It is the responsibility of the payee to approach the payor when the needs and demands either shift or something causes the equation to fail to work as well.

Its still my opinion to be proud of this guy for coming to you and asking for the increase. Its also my position that someone who has convictions like yours will hold to your routine. I.e pay what you said and not budge. Thats not an insult. Its a fact.

For holding the line, I say good for you. For paying what you pay, I just know that I wouldn't have worked for that, especially with a new baby on the way. I know my grooms wouldn't work for that, but I know a bunch of people, not mexicans, who would. You'll find able bodies, but it'll come down to how much will you get in return and how many will you go through.

~Emily

[3fatponies]

Now, now, I am not being a smart ass by suggesting that. By defination, a good boss who offers a fair wage should be able to find good employees in any part of the world. If that is in fact a fair wage(and I don't know, because I don't live there), and she treats her employees with consideration, then no problem, right? And if she isn't paying a fair wage, or doesn't treat them with respect, then she won't be able to employ someone decent to do the job for any length of time, right?

That's probably a pretty good way to discover if you are being a good employer or not--if you can't find or keep good help, then I would suggest that it is not THEM, but YOU. If, on the other hand, this guy is the only one to ever walk, then YOU are probably a pretty good boss and HE was the problem. Make sense?

[nightsong]

Good post, 3fp.

[3fatponies]

Yes, for my next performance, I am going to throw myself to the ground and flop around, screaming "can't we all just get along?!?" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sorry, I just couldn't resist....

[nightsong]

Maybe just invoke Rule no. 1. I do that every now and then...

[3fatponies]

You mean there are RULES?? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[nightsong]

Well, I didn't say they were FOLLOWED http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ...

[Sierra]

Wow. Just wow. You know, I'd be really, really embarrassed to have my website posted underneath some of these posts...

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

I hope you mean the creepy, racist "Ugly American" ones....

[harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens]

I edited this thought out of my previous post, because I deemed it to be a little incendiary. One of our participants in this thread, has struck a nerve, first insinuating that a "fresh Mexican" should work for a buck fifty and then sleep in the barn. In a subsequent post she goes on to use some sarcasm referring to the "lovely" *Mexicans*, then offers one of the most convoluted sentences I have ever tried to read, and in yet another post states that she would rather work "allong side some Hispanics than your everage minimum wage looser". She complains of no high paying jobs in her part of the country, but truth be told, with what she has shown us, I somehow doubt that she is qualified for anything that pays much more than the "fresh Mexicans"

[MyArgie]

i've always really enjoyed coming to the BB's to post and read other posts. many times, i've told stories of how supportive and helpful BB members have been. reading this thread has been one of the most disheartening things i've done in a while. there is no reason for ANYONE to bring race into this discussion on wages. i don't care where you are from, racism is unacceptable. it's not an issue of "PC" when you are blatently disrespecting others.

racetb- kudos but, don't waste your time, we have yet to cure ignorance... don't worry all that inbreeding will catch up to them eventually http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[fullmoon fever]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif This thread has made me realize why my DH's response to the possibility of moving to Texas was NO WAY IN HELL.

He may have been born and raised in NYC, but his Puerto Rican/Sicilian heritage (and fluent Spanish) would certainly scream *Mexican* to most.

Oh, and relating to the original post; I paid $10/hour for a 4 hr. day TEN YEARS AGO. They may have been Canadian dollars, but it was still $10/hour cash to a high-school girl.

[Uberraschung]

None of the barn workers (mexican or otherwise) who work for us (and whom I also consider to be good friends of mine) would ever work for such piddling wages.

You get what you pay for. In our case, our workers are all hard workers who like and want to keep their jobs. Doesn't sound like your case at all, ESG.

Alagirl, you have some serious issues. I would be embarassed to ever be around you and an attitude like yours is the reason people think Americans are such xenophopic assholes.

[lawndart]

Perhaps this thread, and the threads about the high cost of hay/grain/bedding should be bookmarked and posted everytime someone complains about the cost of boarding a horse.....People who have never owned or operated a boarding barn just have no idea what all is involved. The responsibility alone is enough to bring the fainthearted to their knees.

FWIW, in this area, anything over $8 per hour is considered good pay. If benefits are included, wow, that is heaven.

I don't make $8 per hour on this farm, and I pay for my own benefits. But the perks of spending my days loving on horses makes it all worth it.

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3fatponies:
ESG--for what it is worth, people didn't go crazy until the "fresh Mexican" comment was made(and not by you, I know).
That was a little much for most of us, and seems to have tipped things into a less friendly zone.

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Thank you for pointing that out. If you live in my area, you are in the minority if you're non-Latino. Given a choice, I will employ the Mexican workers over their non-Latino counterparts because by and large, they're much better at what they do. Most of these guys were raised on farms with horses, so it's like old home week for them to work in a barn. And since I speak fairly fluent Spanish, I usually don't have trouble with the guys, and have been delighted with them as people as well as with their work. This piece of cheese is the exception. And for those of you who think that I'm a crappy employer because I booted this guy, you might be interested to know that his nephew is still working for me on Saturdays. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif</span>

While I understand your comments about honoring a promise, employment is generally "at will," meaning that the employee can walk away for no other reason than they feel like it. I can't fault that either--I have walked away from jobs that I didn't like, where I felt that the pay was not all compensatory for the situation.

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">I'll buy that. Just seems strange that the hours were more than adequate for the work agreed upon, and now they're suddenly insufficient? And I should pay more money? I don't think so. And for those of you who think I'm a racist, I wouldn't give a rat's ass what color cheese this piece was, I'd have still laid into him and fired him, because he acted like a piece of cheese. The only difference is, I was able to do it in Spanish. </span>
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

So while it leaves you in a frustrating situation, I don't think you should let this make you crazy either. If that is a fair rate for your area, then why not call some local stables and see if there is someone who needs a couple of extra hours of work? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Thank you for the suggestion. I actually have a prospective WS coming out today for an interview. If that doesn't look like it will work, I'll definitely act upon your suggestion.

Oh, and BTW? Those of you who think I'm kvetching for nothing? This post WAS entitled "VENT". I am expressing anger and frustration over a situation. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif</span>

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fullmoon fever:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif This thread has made me realize why my DH's response to the possibility of moving to Texas was NO WAY IN HELL.

He may have been born and raised in NYC, but his Puerto Rican/Sicilian heritage (and fluent Spanish) would certainly scream *Mexican* to most.

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">I have somewhat the same issue. I'm pure Italian, but since I look Latin, I'm constantly accosted by local Latinos who automatically ASSume I speak Spanish because of my appearance. And then when I tell them that my Spanish isn't all that good and to please speak slowly, THEY get offended! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif The non-Latinos are NOT the only racists here, my friend. Not that I am one, nor have I ever been. </span>

Oh, and relating to the original post; I paid $10/hour for a 4 hr. day TEN YEARS AGO. They may have been Canadian dollars, but it was still $10/hour cash to a high-school girl. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">As stated before, $8.50/hour is the going rate here for GOOD barn help. Easy to understand, when you consider that most entry level data entry or general office jobs pay the same. Believe it or not. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif</span>

[Alagirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But I will agree that on the outside Alagirls' post did sound condescending towards Hispanics. Not so much the gist of the post if read between the lines...but the terms used and the costs quoted. I'd never pay anyone $1.50 an hour for anything. Heck, you can't get the neighborhood teen to rake your leaves for less than $25.
I'm *assuming* Alagirl was meaning to convey that many immigrant barn workers from Mexico have a better work ethic, better experience and will work for less wages than our domestic folks. I'm *hoping* she didn't mean just grab a fresh Mexican newly here to exploit them and their dreams by paying them next to nothing for work nobody else seems to want to do. I'm also hoping she has a better outlook on immigrant workers than another poster on here ...'from fl." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thank GOODNESS there is intelligent life! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Girlfriend, you got me pegged!

I should take pointers from my computer and leave well enough alone with ESG most elloquent last two posts...

But, heaven help me I can't http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I can't help it that 8 bucks doesn't buy you much where you live when it is a dang good wage aroung here. I can't help it when the good workers come from where they do and that the ones with shorter commute are not willing to get dirty. Earth to Trakhener: Why do you think there are soooo many Illegals in employment in the agricultural sector, and love it or hate it, horses fall under this category!

Personaly speaking, Racetb, I find your comment about your *good Mexican grooms* way more condecending, given that half are probably not even from Mexico to begin with! And for the buck fifty so often quoted http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Where is the rolling icon when you need it! You guys are unreal!

But I should've learned by now, some people have trouble comprehending the written word, let alone the unspoken...

Ain't defending the *Fresh Mexican* apparently the one OP let go was fresh enough...AND I do NOT advocate going out to hire ilegals, no matter how fresh and new, because it is dangerous and - well - ILEGAL!!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I haven't read the latest unemployment stats, but last time I checked it was around 4% which is considered full employment. And if you are unfamiliar with the term, that means you will have a he** of a time finding a worker woth their salt, beacuse they are allready employed!
And here where I live, heck, nobody wants to do the work they are payed for, run the Steelmill out of town, and only the Explorer tire fiasco saved the Goodyear plant! And those folks where all making goooood money they didn't want to work for!


Oh well, at least I got your collective adrenalin flowing...

[CuriosoJorge]

Frankly, I'm not suprised that ESG is having issues with her employees.

She made her views on grooms and hired help quite well known on a previous thread.

[QueenMother]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:
Damn, and I thought Lincoln freed the slaves....wait a minute...he did!

The joy of shoveling horse excrement, sweeping, and then putting up with bitching about being overpayed...yeah, boy! Makes one wonder why it'd be hard to get help.


My thoughts exactly, Trakehner, after reading ESG's very lovely first sentence in first post when she referred to her friend "loaning" her her the worker.


Get an American worker, don't hire some illegal Mexican and whine you had to since you couldn't afford to pay non-slave wages, and pay them a decent American wage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[llt]

I have to jump in on this, I have lived in the South, yes the Deep South. It costs money to care for horses. It costs more money to take GOOD care of horses. It is worth the peace of mind to know that your horses are being cared for by attentive happy employees, even if they are part time for only two hours a day. Would you rather someone blindly topped off water buckets, or would you prefer that they dumped the water bucket, made sure it was clean and then refilled it? Would you rather they opened the gate to the turnout and sent your horse in, or that they took the time to use fly spray, put boots on, led the horse into the paddock, and released him safely? Do you want your employees cleaning the stalls half heartedly, leaving the wet spots, or someone who takes pride in their work, cleans the whole stall, fluffing up bedding, and rakes after dumping the manure cart? Do you want someone to notice that there is something wrong with your horse when he is brought in? Horses are vaulable animals that have been entrusted to us. Pay good help for good work, or don't be suprised when they find better paying jobs.

[TheJenners]

I can't believe you are all attacking ESG this way and picking apart and finding fault in every little bit of her post.

As she has stated, what she was paying is considered decent in her area. It's considered underpayed in yours, tough. It's considered OVERPAYED in my neck of the woods. Anyone who feels she isn't paying well enough should just calm down, wipe the rabid saliva off your lips and remember that we don't all live in your neighborhood.

Everyone who brought race into it, or slaves etc, just has bad taste. I think her comment on loaning was a well-meaning, innocent comment.

Like I posted earlier, her pay seems decent in comparison to what I was paid and to what I see being paid around here. The fact that the worker complained about pay after he agreed to it is indeed grounds for her telling him to shove off, because either she pays it, which she doesn't want or have to do, or she now has to find another worker...which she also didn't want to have to do, because in the meantime she has an aforementioned health condition and has to scramble to keep her horses taken care of. I'd be pissed too.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Why, what was I thinking?! These are well meaning folks who just showed a little bad taste! The content of one's character shouldn't enter into the equation when salaries, and the supreme ignorance and arrogance of the free world are on the platform. My castigations were way off base. Makes me wish I'd had that pesky Pol Pot over for tea before he died.

[Simone]

One of the best jobs I ever had didn't pay very well at all. That place had employees that had been there for years and years, and when one of them did leave, usually for age or health reasons, there would be 5 of the other employees' friends or relatives lined up begging for that job. The workplace wasn't fancy either, in fact it was a small step up from a total dump.

So why did people come to work every day gladly and stay pretty much forever? Because all the management treated every single person there, down to the lowliest part time worker, as if they were a human being who actually mattered. They knew every employee's husband's and kids' names, if someone had to leave work for an emergency and we were short handed one of the owners would take over the employee's work for the rest of the day, the bosses knew how to smile and say "please" and "thank you", and weren't afraid to do so, even when dealing with someone who was being paid to do the work they were asking to have done. In return, employees routinely volunteered to go above and beyond when needed. Stress level was so low as to be non-existent most days.

A fair wage is definitely needed to make people want to come work for you - but it's not *just* about the money, and many, many people would rather work for a bit less money in exchange for a lot more respect and consideration.

[llt]

Again, I have lived in the deep South, and stand by my previous post, you get what you pay for. You are not going to get the same work ethic from someone paid $8.50 and hour as you are from someone paid a higher rate. Unless there was a signed contract stating that the worker was going to stay for a certain amount of time, he was free to quit and did.

[MSP]

I see no point in arguing what the going rate is in this area or that area. The bottom line is you hired someone to do a job, as long as he knew what the pay was and what the job entailed he agreed to it. He apparently had a change of heart and decided it wasn’t enough, no big deal it happens. If this happens again you may have to pay more to make it worth coming to your place for two hours. The going rate is what ever it cost you to get the job done the way you want it and keep a good worker.

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheJenners:
Everyone who brought race into it, or slaves etc, just has bad taste.

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">I'm still trying to figure out how the race thing got into it. I never even mentioned his nationality. The only thing that gave a clue that he was Latino was when I mentioned his brother's name - Pedro. WTF?</span>

I think her comment on loaning was a well-meaning, innocent comment.

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">And that's another inaccuracy. I never said my friend "loaned" this worker to me - I said she was nice enough to SHARE him with me. Not the same thing at all. Please, all of you so anxious to attack, read for clarity. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif</span>

Like I posted earlier, her pay seems decent in comparison to what I was paid and to what I see being paid around here. The fact that the worker complained about pay after he agreed to it is indeed grounds for her telling him to shove off, because either she pays it, which she doesn't want or have to do, or she now has to find another worker...which she also didn't want to have to do, because in the meantime she has an aforementioned health condition and has to scramble to keep her horses taken care of. I'd be pissed too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Thank you for saying that. Seems at least one other person got my point without accusing me of being a cheapskate racist of a shitty employer. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </span>

[TripleRipple]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ESG:
1..... I come out of the hospital and find that I am not able to do the things the doctors tell me I will.

2.....I pay her groom/farmhand the same hourly rate she does.

3.....When it was explained to him that he needed to actually work to get paid, he pulled a bit of attitude, but complied.

4. So he comes to me today and says he can't get the seven stalls done in two hours.

5. He then asks how much I paid his brother, who was a much better worker than he, and I tell him that Pedro got less per hour than he's getting.

6.....I let his sorry ass go.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The above is all I need to know to answer your question. Some of the responses on this thread ought to inform you of why it is hard to find good help.

What is relevant is that you, a temporarily disabled person, offered to pay Mr. X the same hourly rate to do the same work for you that Mr. X does for your friend. So, you did offer him the going rate and he agreed, worked for 3 weeks and then called you a cheapskate. Mr. X needed to go away at that point. Sounds like Mr. X hoped that you would just fork it over, because given your physical inability to do the work yourself you'd be less likely to fire him when he held up up for more $$. Ick. Not fair, and that is based solely on the facts as you present them. Is the job more than what was represented to him originally? Doesn't sound like it. Is he mentally challenged and didn't understand either the job or the going rate or ??? In that case, probably shouldn't be around your horses in the first place.

Maybe I'd be more sympathetic to Mr. X if he'd said dang I am so stuck on stupid it never occured to me how much a gallon of gas is...or that driving that far (if that is the case - for all we know he lives next door to you) for two hours means I would lose money and is a deal killer, in which case I don't get why he took the job at all.

Good luck in finding someone who will be more honest with you up front. And don't screw yourself up by cleaning those stalls. I have reinjured a shoulder more than necessary by being stubborn when someone lets me down (different reasons, but same result...recurring injurieshttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Another Ghandi heard from. Could some one please hand me a revolver? Don't worry, at this point I'm just going to turn it on myself http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Racetb:
Another Ghandi heard from. Could some one please hand me a revolver? Don't worry, at this point I'm just going to turn it on myself http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROFLMAO!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Coreene]

Threads like this are always good at deciding whom you would and would not ever invite to a dinner party.

[3fatponies]

They also priovide some of the best one liners ever.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[circusponydreams]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Threads like this are always good at deciding whom you would and would not ever invite to a dinner party. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, racetb and 3fatponies, consider yourselves invited to a dinner party, that is if you survive this thread. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by circusponydreams:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Threads like this are always good at deciding whom you would and would not ever invite to a dinner party. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, racetb and 3fatponies, consider yourselves invited to a dinner party, that is if you survive this thread. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well damn, for a free meal, I'll MAKE SURE I survive!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

I'm in..unless I figure out how to load this thing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Maybe I can just do it with the cattle prod I use on that cheese Hernando when he gets out of line and asks for a raise.

[BarbB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Coreene:
Threads like this are always good at deciding whom you would and would not ever invite to a dinner party. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Priceless http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Racetb:
Another Ghandi heard from. Could some one please hand me a revolver? Don't worry, at this point I'm just going to turn it on myself http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, here's a thought; come on down here to Texas! Help is cheap, and every least person knows how to load his/her own gun! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Help is cheap, and every least person knows how to load his/her own gun! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Something to be immensely proud of. Good thing it's only the least folks that are aquainted with loading hand guns.

3fps, coreen and circus...bless you http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Astraled]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ESG:
Help is cheap, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Ex-help is apparently cheap, at any rate http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif.

[BarbB]

better and better..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">better and better..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Racetb:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Help is cheap, and every least person knows how to load his/her own gun! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Something to be immensely proud of. Good thing it's only the least folks that are aquainted with loading hand guns. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Nope, I'd say that's inaccurate. The least folks can't afford handguns. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif</span>

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

ESG: "Nope, I'd say that's inaccurate. The least folks can't afford handguns."

...you'd better hope ol' Pedro didn't get his hands on one.

You know, I was telling 3fps earlier; My new horse jumped like Gozzi today. I drew an obscene appendage on the giant republican elephant election sign some fool [the mayor] stuck in my front yard..It was a lovely appendage and could be seen for miles http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif...and I actually enjoyed reading this thread tonight! Life is good.

[llt]

I am still unsure why I didn't get invited to dinner!

[MyArgie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">every least person knows how to load his/her own gun! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

... which is why Texas relies heavily on the death penalty

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

llt....you KNOW you're in. Your classic retorts precede you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[llt]

I am only going to attend if fresh Mexicans are served.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

....that's Alagirl's department, I believe.

[MyArgie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am only going to attend if fresh Mexicans are served. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry, they will be busy shoveling manure for free

[Robby Johnson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ESG:
His duties were to muck seven stalls, clean and refill the water buckets, and turn out the first set of horses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">(not great - aisle was raked haphazardly, wash stall was still dirty when he left, stuff like that) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

At what point did cleaning the wash stall and raking the aisle get added to the duties?

Robby

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MyArgie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am only going to attend if fresh Mexicans are served. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry, they will be busy shoveling manure for free </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

again, bless you all!!!!!!!!!

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Racetb:
ESG: "Nope, I'd say that's inaccurate. The least folks can't afford handguns."

...you'd better hope ol' Pedro didn't get his hands on one.

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Pedro is the one who's coming back to work for me. It's his asshole brother, Juan, that I fired yesterday morning. Gotta keep the brothers straight. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif</span>

You know, I was telling 3fps earlier; My new horse jumped like Gozzi today. I drew an obscene appendage on the giant republican elephant election sign some fool [the mayor] stuck in my front yard..It was a lovely appendage and could be seen for miles http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif...and I actually enjoyed reading this thread tonight! Life is good. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Glad I could at least afford you some amusement. </span> http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ESG:
His duties were to muck seven stalls, clean and refill the water buckets, and turn out the first set of horses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">(not great - aisle was raked haphazardly, wash stall was still dirty when he left, stuff like that) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

At what point did cleaning the wash stall and raking the aisle get added to the duties?

Robby </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">I never added them - he just started doing them.......haphazardly. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif</span>

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MyArgie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">every least person knows how to load his/her own gun! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

... which is why Texas relies heavily on the death penalty </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Only slightly more heavily than Florida. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I never added them - he just started doing them.......haphazardly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The bast*rd!!! How dare he??? This justifies everything. If only I'd known!

[BlackWatchLady]

I don't know, but, it takes me an hr and half to clean 2 stalls. I am ultra picky, lol, literally.

[SaddleFitterVA]

Ya know, I have a job, I was hired to do X for $Y salary.

I am getting paid $Y salary, but unfortunately the working conditions are abysmal.

I also happen to live in an "employment at will" state, which means, either one of us can terminate the employment, when either wants.

My commute is long, but I signed up for that....

But, they outright lied about paying for parking. I started, they do not pay, they said "we approved a higher salary so you can pay your parking". My bad, I did not get that explicitly in the offer letter, I thought there would be some honor to the verbal discussions.

In short, I won't be staying in this job for long. It just isn't working out, either way.

I'm qualified, competent, but for whatever reason, the organization I'm in and I do not mesh.

Mel

[DarcDarc]

Well... to me that sounds like ok money (I live in CA where minimum wage is 6.75 or 7 not sure exactly), either way i picked/cleaned stalls for free just to get around the horses (i'm horseless and can't afford to pay for lessons) and ride once in a while...oh and did I mention in 100 degree heat during the summer... Oh and I drove 30 minutes each way to this place... And actually a lot of places didn't want me to come do this for them free...

But I do think that if he agreed to do X work for Y money that he should do X work and not complain because he is only getting $Y, no matter how unfair you all think the OP is being if he wanted more money than that he should have asked for it in the beginning rather than doing the work and then complaining about it. I'd gladly do it for that money, but I'm afraid the commute would be just slightly out of the distance I'm willing to travel...

I also think everyone needs to not get offended by the so called "racist" remarks. Everyone takes offense to everything these days, just chill out. I don't know anything about the economy in Texas or minimum wage, as I'm sure many of you don't either, so don't start telling the OP what they should or should not be paying this man if you don't know what you're talking about.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

What?? Oh, nevermind. I've just been back over this entire thread, as my pinko commie NYC friend wanted it forwarded to her. Harry Johnson, I believe you were once an English Professor. WTF is THIS??

Alabama rounds most category of anything out way in the bottom...

[CuriosoJorge]

"he just started doing them"

ESG, this sounds a heck of a lot like initiative to me. Maybe Juan was trying to be helpful in doing extra tasks that were not expressly assigned to him. I understand that this is probably a foreign concept to you.

Hey Racetb, love your signature... my favorite is, "Courage is not a man with a knife in his hand, Jem. Courage is when you know you're licked before you begin, but you begin anyway, and see it through."

[MyArgie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yep. Only slightly more heavily than Florida. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

it runs in the bush family

[allicolls Aefvue Farms Deep South]

To provide another perspective from Alabama...

I wish that the judgement and criticisms based on wages would stop. Different wages are considered acceptable in different parts of the country.

Personally, last summer I picked 20 stalls, fed 36 horses morning and evening, swept the aisle, watered, turned out and brought in... all for $50/day. And it was a 40 minute drive, one-way. $8.50 an hour? I'd do backflips!

I don't want to address any of the racial issues ...wouldn't touch that with a 39-and-a-half foot pole.

I do have a suggestion for finding good help...

ESG - 2 hours of work in the evening sounds like the perfect job for a local horse-crazy high school kid. That would have been the perfect after-school job for me in high school! Plus, you can be sure a horse crazy kid would have the horses' interest at heart and would do a good job!

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Nov. 08, 2005 08:19 PM
quote:
Yep. Only slightly more heavily than Florida.


it runs in the bush family </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL!!! MyArgie..You could have aided me in drawing the obscene appendage on the election elephant sign in my yard! It was a fulfilling endeavor.

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CuriosoJorge:
"he just started doing them"

ESG, this sounds a heck of a lot like initiative to me. Maybe Juan was trying to be helpful in doing extra tasks that were not expressly assigned to him. I understand that this is probably a foreign concept to you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">"A foreign concept"? I think not. Being a BO and taking care of my boarders' horses as if they were my own, I do a LOT that isn't "assigned" to me, and for a lot less than I pay my help. Obviously, you've not ever been in this sort of situation, so perhaps that's a foreign concept to you?</span>

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Jesus! Isn't it HARD WORK to be this defensive and full of bile??!!...and you certainly don't run your barn with paying boarders for less money than you pay poor Ignacio. Why would you make such a ridiculous statement?????

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Racetb:
Jesus! Isn't it HARD WORK to be this defensive and full of bile??!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, no, no racetb - best as I can tell it's more like a "Life's Calling". This is just same old angst and green/purple font, different day and topic. I will admit it is refreshingly different from ESG vs. Draw Reins though.

[buryinghill2]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CuriosoJorge:
Frankly, I'm not suprised that ESG is having issues with her employees.

She made her views on grooms and hired help quite well known on a previous thread. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I remember a battle with ESG over tipping a while back. After that fiasco, I realized that talking sense to ESG was impossible.
Keep up the good work Racetb, I just don't have the energy to jump in this battle after the last one.
ESG seems to see the world from an entirely different perspective than most of the rest of us. Until she changes her attitude, she will continue to have problems finding, and retaining quality barn staff.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Thanks BH2...with a little comic relief from you guys in the white hats...I SHALL CARRY ON!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

DMK...Oh God, don't let her see my arsenal of equipment left over from Mikey Cohen!

[fullmoon fever]

I had a look at ESG's website. It says her farm is conveniently located 30 minutes from downtown Houston.

Are there any leftovers from New Orleans looking for jobs? Maybe they'd be more grateful and not as sassy as Juan. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

LOL!! Yeah, that sassy ol' Juan. Katrina refugees have been through enough! ...and although "The least folks can't afford handguns"...they may have smuggled some out of Walmart. Here's hoping http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[TheJenners]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Racetb:
LOL!! Yeah, that sassy ol' Juan. Katrina refugees have been through enough! ...and although "The least folks can't afford handguns"...they may have smuggled some out of Walmart. Here's hoping http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, that's awful to say, to imply you hope someone shoots another poster. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Over something like not wanting to pay more than the going rate? It isn't like she is killing animals with rusty machetes for god's sake!

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Oh yeah..that's what I was insinuating, good God; And seven pages of outrage at the indignities posted here, are merely to show our discomfort with the minimum wage in Texas. [And I've got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.] I'm with the rest of you. I've had enough ignorance and venom for one night. Not ONCE did I hear a word about the welfare of the horses, or the most important attribute to be looked for in Juan..Did the guy love and care about the animals?

[WhoaHorsieWhoa]

I live in New England and I am working on a farm getting paid $8 per hour about 5 hours 4 days a week. I drive an hour to get there and clean prob 9 stalls when the owner helps and sometimes i clean 13 stalls. Water all horses, blanket all, turn out bring in, sweeping, raking and dragging the indoor, putting down hay etc. Lots to do in 5 hrs but i get it done. With taxes being took out i don't make much money at all and not getting paid enough for the work i do. I have been working on horse farms since i was 8. Managed a 60 horse hanoverian dressage barn my self and did all the work. I am extremly hard working. I don't think that up here in New England we don't get paid much at all. Working in the winter on a horse farm is horrible http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif here. But i do it because i love horses and i love my job. I am now actually moving to another barn that pays way much more and full time. Just can't live off from $8 per hour here even if it was a full time job.

[3fatponies]

Jeez, spend a couple hours cleaning house (WAY too many animals=enough hair to cover that elephant you "augmented"), and I come back to find everyone has been enjoying themselves without me.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Duffy]

My petsitter gets $65/night when taking care of two cats and one dog and she actually spends the night, gets to eat my food, watch my nice tv, etc. She takes care of other pets when she's not physically at my home.

When she's only taking care of the cats, she gets paid $16/visit (2x per day) - so $32.00. She feeds the cats and scoops out the litterbox.

I think I'm in the wrong business. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[equusrocks]

Geez Duffy!!! I'm in the wrong state!! I charge $25 for 4 horses or less, 2x's a day, and if there are pets, it's $30/day!!

Although for my favorite people to housesit for, they had one dog, paid me $12/day, and left me with about $80 in spending money for the week!

I don't really mind how much I get paid, so long as I'm capable of the work and I am appreciated!

[nightsong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MyArgie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yep. Only slightly more heavily than Florida. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

it runs in the bush family </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just what *I* was thinking...

[saxony]

I pay a $20.00 for feeding three horses, picking out a run-in that is barely used and cleaning and filling water buckets. This is a for a middle school girl and the work can be completed in less than an hour. I wouldn't even think of asking someone to do it for less money. I worked in barns as a kid and I think that alot of horsepeople take advantage of the help - frankly it disgusts me.....

[Crooked Horse]

Hey ESG...aintcha glad you vented? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[TB or not TB?]

Why, back in my day, I mucked 40 stalls uphill both ways, an' we didn' have no fancy pitchforks. Heck, we had ter use pointed sticks and pierce those turds, and the dump area was a good two mile hike through the snow. And watering? Ain't got no 'hoses' - we had to haul those suckers to the local oasis (4 miles) twice a day in 110* weather wearing snowpants (as was the fashion at the time). An' I made me an honest 27 cents per week, plus reduced board on my hoss because he lived out in a 10x10 shed on the edge of the property along with me and my 12 siblings (all of whom were ill and crippled) and I was gosh durn thankful to have a job.

Now don't you use your newfangled laws of physics to try to confuse the matter. That's how life was.



http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Okay okay sorry... couldn't help myself on that one. You guys were asking for it! Seriously though, I actually did get paid $6.50/hour to clean 14 stalls, bring in horses, refill buckets, feed, sweep, etc, and the BO claimed it took only 2 hours so that's how much she paid for. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif That was only 4 years ago, I think! You know, I don't think it ever occurred to me that I only made $13 for what was close to 3 hours of intense labor (I had to HUSTLE to finish). Ah, innocence.

Now my fine ladies and gentlemen, why can't we all agree to give peace a chance? Instead, let us use the pent up anger from our deep-seeded emotional issues to fight for a better world, in which horses clean their own stalls and manure is available in a variety of pleasant scents.

I vote for pancake smell.

[ProzacPuppy]

Wow, what a fun thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Please, those of you attending a function where Mexicans are served, check to see if they are fresh, frozen or canned. There has been a recall of canned Mexicans. I believe I read about it in Consumer Reports. Very dangerous. Or better yet, stick with the fresh Salvadorans. Taste like chicken. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Mav226]

My barn pays $11/hour for a 40 hour week. The barn is REDICULOUSLY clean. ...and they're looking for help now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[MistyBlue]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">..wouldn't touch that with a 39-and-a-half foot pole. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee thanks allicolls...now I have the theme song from The Grinch Who Stole Christmas stuck in my head! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[joliemom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now my fine ladies and gentlemen, why can't we all agree to give peace a chance? Instead, let us use the pent up anger from our deep-seeded emotional issues to fight for a better world, in which horses clean their own stalls and manure is available in a variety of pleasant scents.

I vote for pancake smell. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Will you be my new best friend?

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

"EstarÃ*a alegre casual rastrillar su asno por dos horas para $8.50."
xxoooooxxxoooo,
Rodrigo

[harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens]

Racetb, I had to ask our Fermin, who works with us, what that meant. After reading the entire 8 pages of dialect, he thought it was quite amusing. And by the way, on my way back from the post office this morning, I bought him a cappucchino from Starbucks, should I deduct the $4.00 I paid for it from his check? And mark my words, the next time Fermin does something of his own initiative and does it haphazardly, we will see to it that he is beaten about the head and face with a polar fleece glove.

[Holly'er Than Thou]

This is all so sad. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Hate reading this stuff. We all have our own problems w/this, that, and the other. Is it so hard to step back and be compassionate? Just because we have a RIGHT to be angry about something doesn't mean that we HAVE to be. So, you're venting about an erstwhile employee, and that's OK. However, I get the feeling that even while you all (on one side of this argument)are referring to him as "Juan", are not really considering him as an individual, but taking a jab at his heritage. As in, "Oh, you know, "Juan," they're all like that!" or whatever. On the other hand, those of you dipping your little toes into this mire with jokes and barbs back and forth with the maybe-not-so-PC are "off," too. It's not funny.

I'm neither a left-wing-leanin'-stinkin'-pinko nor a right-winger of the same severity, so don't bother to blather on about the bent of my views. This thread is what it is.

A little balance, a little balance.........

[Equine Adhesive]

I just wanted to point out, ESG was NOT paying $8.50 per hour, but for TWO hours. $4.25 per hour is below minimum wage.

Edited to add: The OP has PM'd me to notify me that I should reread her post to "protect" my "credibility" (on an internet BB). I won't apologize if I interpreted this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anyway, so I pay her groom/farmhand the same hourly rate she does, only for just two hours a day. His duties were to muck seven stalls, clean and refill the water buckets, and turn out the first set of horses. For this, he was to be paid $8.50 for two hours' work, five days a week.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

which sounds like $8.50 for two hours of work to me (actually, that's exactly what it says). If not, then she should have clarified that earlier on.

[Pixie Dust]

So, what's happened ESG? Have you found some suitable replacement help?

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

EquineA: You know, I was afraid of that. I kept reading the original post and didn't want to believe my eyes.

[harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens]

No, I do believe she was paying $8.50 per hour.

[snkstacres]

hahahahahahah I think it was called unskilled labor. LOL Unskilled, dang, when I have unskilled labor, I in fact just babysit. I do stalls for a job as well as have workers at my farm too. Not unskilled. I consider myself a professional poop scooper. Guaranteed, you wont have to go in and clean those stalls behind me. they will be properly bedded andyou wont find those frozen little peas come winter time. And hey, I even do the corners, dont cover the wetspots. But, I want ten dollars an hour, and I am worth it. I wont miss anything going on with your horses when I turn them out or bring them in. I wont forget to clean a bucket that needs it or make a small repair and avoid an injury. I wont steal your equipment or take shortcuts anywhere. And what I ask in return, dont treat me like an unskilled laborer who cant get a better job. I do what I do cause I love it. I will prove my worth. And by the way, my boss now pays me 15 an hour and says I have saved her tons of money. And we all know what a good feeling it is to be able to leave home and know your kids are ok. I would walk to work if I had to when they depend on me. The old saying, treat others as you wish to be treated comes into play here doesnt it. I am on both ends of this stick and I agree, its hard to find good labor but equally as hard to find a good boss.

I dont think I could do 7 stalls, turnout, feed, and clean barn and wash stalls in two hours though. It takes me two hours to feed and turn out if I actually give them enough time to eat in a relaxed fashion.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Harry, You the man!

[inca]

I pay $15 a day for a college girl to come to my place and feed, clean stalls and fill water buckets. Anywhere from 45 minutes of work to an hour and fifteen minutes if they have been in due to bad weather. Flat fee of $15.

When I go out of town, I pay $30 per day to come and do morning and evening feed and clean stalls. This is for 3 horses, one weanling and a 9.2hh pony. Not all are in stalls and I try to make it as easy as possible.

Guess what, each time a girl graduates and leaves, she finds her own replacement! I am assuming this is because it's a good job for a decent wage.

To get someone to come and do a few hours work, you usually have to pay more per hour than if they are coming to your place to do 8 hours of work per day. Otherwise, it is just not worth their time. Not to mention the cost of gas to get to your place and back home.

Yes, I probably overpay a bit but it's worth it to me to have reliable help 3 or 4 times a week so I can ride after work.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by harryjohnson:
Racetb, I had to ask our Fermin, who works with us, what that meant. After reading the entire 8 pages of dialect, he thought it was quite amusing. And by the way, on my way back from the post office this morning, I bought him a cappucchino from Starbucks, should I deduct the $4.00 I paid for it from his check? And mark my words, the next time Fermin does something of his own initiative and does it haphazardly, we will see to it that he is beaten about the head and face with a polar fleece glove. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Harry, I love you--can I come live in your shed, or perhaps the garage? It would be worth it! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[foursocks]

Just because you can pay someone less doesn't mean you should. Exploitation is exploitation, and none of us who have worked a crappy job to be paid like we were subhuman should forget how it feels. Everyone alive deserves basic dignity on that qualification alone- people should not be labeled and treated as more or less valuable depending on where they were born. That is a disgusting way to think about your fellows, and at the end of the day, Harry J is right- workers doing any job who are treated as valuable parts of the workplace and even, gasp, as friends tend to work better and be happier about their situation. Immiseration of others, whether intended or not, is not a good working practice for anyone to have.

And for those of you advocating not getting offended by what are overtly or covertly discriminatory comments, shame on you. Shame for letting comments like "fresh Mexican" and calling someone a "cheese" slide in order to not rock the boat. If the boat sucks, it sucks, and should be rocked. Sorry, Ms Parks- we're all too scared/lazy/content with our own lot to say anything- but thanks for standing up for yourself and others...

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Shame for letting comments like "fresh Mexican" and calling someone a "cheese" slide in order to not rock the boat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

foursocks: That was the next admonishment coming out of my mouth. Bless YOU too, grab a white hat and join The Milagro Beanfield War.

[Pixie Dust]

I must say that I'm shocked speechless by the use of terms like "fresh Mexican" and others. I can't believe that people would so flippantly refer to other human beings like that (and even laugh about it.) What a disgrace, and I agree Coreene with the dinner party comment.

Right on socksy!

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Pixiedust, there's just an evil, flinty edge to it that feels so wrong I can't leave it alone..and shouldn't!, as 4socks stated so eloquently. If you're missing the compassion gene, at least have the class to show a little Noblesse Oblige. Polite elitism would go down better than this bile.
p.s.: Mr. Wilde is my favorite. I can still recite The Ballad of Reading Gaol from memory http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens]

I respectfully disagree on "the compassion gene". Business is business, and should not be treated with the same inclinations as say, the recent hurricane and earthquake disasters. That being said, in business what goes around comes around. If you wish to conduct a business dealing with the posture we have observed, you will not be able to get away with it forever, as it will catch up with you, and either people will not continue to do business with you, or they will quit as this gentleman has. Let this be a lesson to all, just because the labor is manual, does not mean it is unskilled, and that the charge these valuable employees and co-workers has been given is not a dear one. By cheating them out of a few dollars, you are cheating your horses out of the very care they need.

[CuriosoJorge]

"Obviously, you've not ever been in this sort of situation"

No, ESG, I can't say I have ever been in your situation. I think that's probably because I treat the people who work with me with respect. You might want to give that a try sometime. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">just because the labor is manual, does not mean it is unskilled, and that the charge these valuable employees and co-workers has bean given is not a dear one. By cheating them out of a few dollars, you are cheating your horses out of the very care they need. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
...I stand corrected Harry, and kudos for bringing up the point of the horse's welfare depending on it's owner's business conduct. Food for thought.

[TheJenners]

Err, I believe the fella had been fired. Let go. Laid off. Downsized. Coporately rearranged. Pink-slipped. Whatever.

I don't believe he quit with righteous indignation, as was implied. Just a thought.

[Aggie4Bar]

Wowzers…. y’all need to simmer down. The minimum wage around here is something like $5.50, and there are lots of people who earn it. Would you suggest that fast food restaurants and grocery stores are exploiting teenagers and non-college educated adults to only pay them this amount? I think not. It seems to me like emotion entered the equation when it became known that this fellow was an illegal immigrant. His age, ethnicity, family history, etc., is completely irrelevant to the work. And for what it’s worth, $8.50/hr is above average for barn workers in the area. People who move up in the world go above and beyond the call of duty to prove that they’re worth more. They don’t bitch about their wage and job details after having accepted the job and then more/less go on strike. That only works in professional sports.

ESG, drive a truck down to Hillcroft and pick up a guy in the median. The majority of those fellows stand there all day waiting to join a day labour crew and don’t end up working at all. Lord knows any one of them would be ecstatic to earn $8.50/hr, and there’s probably even a few down there with horse experience.

[MyArgie]

Aggie- minimum wage is nationally $5.15, it sounds like your area is higher. sorry if u already knew that, i just wanted to make sure it was clear for anyone else reading. the standard of living is relative to where you live in the country. as others have pointed out, working up in the northeast in the cold costs more. you spend more gas and money in general, which is why the minimum wage in MA is $6.75 Not that this amount brings you above the poverty line, but it is relative to what you can buy with your money.

i can only speak for myself on this, but for the record, my anger is not over what ESG was paying her employee. i can't afford to give up 2 hours plus driving for under $10 a day, especially if it's just a short amount of time. so i personally would not expect anyone else to, but like i said thats not why i posted. its the ethnic/racial issue that is unacceptable.

[bwf]

Well I pay my morning help $50 a day. It is about 3 and 1/2 hrs. She has to bring in 13 horses, Feed and hay 26 horses, do AM meds, turn out 9 horses. Clean 11 stalls and bed them. Blow out the Aisle.

My pm and week end help gets $8.00 an hour. The Pm work is to bring in the 9 horses, feed all 26, give hay, do meds, turn out 13 horses, and clean the stalls of the 13 that went out for the night.

The Pm horses who are out at night and in in the day...their stalls are not bad. They are in from 9 am to 3:30pm.

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">VENT - WHY is it so hard to find good help?!?!? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In general, when someone asks that question, in any industry, the answer is that the pay isn't enough to cover the conditions of the job.

That doesn't mean, necessarily, that the employer is wrong or that the potential employee is wrong. Many jobs are squeezed on both sides of the equation - a barn owner has boarders who can/will pay only so much, an employee has gas/food/housing expenses that can be squeezed only so hard. We don't expect corporations to provide goods and services below cost; we shouldn't expect employees to do so either.

If you paid $50 an hour, you'd have no trouble finding experienced and conscientious help. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Course, you might go bankrupt.

There are other ways to make a job nicer, in general. Treating the staff professionally and with respect. Being flexible about hours and such when possible. Having a pleasant working environment. Other treasured benefits.

Just like when horse shopping, if you want a great show horse, you can spend $100,000 or $2,000, or anything in between. At $2,000, they're out there, but you're going to have to look pretty hard (and past a lot of sad cases) to find that diamond in the rough and develop it into the nice horse you want. At $100,000 you can probably find a suitable horse in a couple of weeks, and be showing it within a month.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Firstly, I believe the gentleman in question was in the process of explaining why he was leaving said job. Esg may have jumped in to "let his sorry ass go", and beat "the cheese" to the punch, is all. Secondly, there have now been numerous excellent postings explaining that no one is interested in rehashing geographic cost of living numbers or even wages per se. We are justifiably sickened by the disheartening, ugly, tone of this behavior. That is our point! As Harry stated, whether one finds these rantings morally reprehensible or not, bad business is bad business..and arrogant, inhumane practices involving the human race, affect the welfare of your animals. I won't wallow in the mire of your illiterate, smug, self righteousness; But I will remain steadfast in the courage of my convictions, and be thankful I've met enlightened folks here that feel the same.

...and on a lighter note http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif:
"EstarÃ*a alegre casual rastrillar su asno por dos horas para $8.50."

[TripleRipple]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Holly'er Than Thou:
This is all so sad. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Hate reading this stuff. We all have our own problems w/this, that, and the other. Is it so hard to step back and be compassionate? Just because we have a RIGHT to be angry about something doesn't mean that we HAVE to be. So, you're venting about an erstwhile employee, and that's OK. However, I get the feeling that even while you all (on one side of this argument)are referring to him as "Juan", are not really considering him as an individual, but taking a jab at his heritage. As in, "Oh, you know, "Juan," they're all like that!" or whatever. On the other hand, those of you dipping your little toes into this mire with jokes and barbs back and forth with the maybe-not-so-PC are "off," too. It's not funny.

I'm neither a left-wing-leanin'-stinkin'-pinko nor a right-winger of the same severity, so don't bother to blather on about the bent of my views. This thread is what it is.

A little balance, a little balance......... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No kidding - you posted what I was about to add. The fresh mexican statement might have needed a response - funny/ironic ones even better. But some responses were more sad than the original comment - the same points could have been made without adding the mexican references. Worse, it then got tied into the OP's question/rant, which I don't think was about issue. I tried to imagine typing those out in the heat of the moment - can't.

[Aggie4Bar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MyArgie:
Aggie- minimum wage is nationally $5.15, it sounds like your area is higher. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>No, it is only $5.15. I thought it had gone up, but I was wrong.

[TheJenners]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Racetb:
But I will remain steadfast in the courage of my convictions, and be thankful I've met enlightened folks here that feel the same.

...and on a lighter note http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif:
"EstarÃ*a alegre casual rastrillar su asno por dos horas para $8.50." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Enlightened would be calling the city to find the committee who posted the political billboard in your yard and ask them to remove it. Or remove it yourself. Enlightened would not be to draw devil horns and a goatee, or phallic symbols or what have you. That is called childish. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif And so are your posts, implying people are illiterate, smug and self-righteous, esp when that gun is pointed vaguely in my direction. I am not illiterate, obviously. And the smug/self-righteous glove fits on your hand just as easily as anyone else's.

To stay in the same vein:

Quizás si él tuviera pensamiento sobre él antes de que él comenzara el trabajo, él no estarÃ*a en la posición que él ahora está: parados.

[Sonesta]

Ah, come on you guys. ESG was paying better than the going hourly rate in this area for barn help. And it is quite common around here, for some reason, for barn help to take the job and then within a couple of weeks try to get you to increase the pay. It's almost expected and ESG should have known it would happen.

Perhaps you don't like her attitude towards the guy, but she was NOT paying slave wages or FORCING him to work for her. Seems she just wanted him to do the job he agreed to do and not pull the common (here anyway) trick of "now that I'm here and you have begun to rely on me, you need to pay me more to stay."

For what it's worth: for part timers, I pay $10 per hour to start and tell them UP FRONT that they will get a raise when and if I am VERY happy with their work. And BTW, my full time barn help has now been with me for 11 years and over the years has worked up to quite a good salary. I'd literally be lost without him. Many have tried to steal him away and he just laughs at them and says there's no way they could match his current pay and that he is quite happy, thank you.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

If you insist in shadowing my posts..having nothing to do with you, and instilling a little humour in a local election is seen as yet another target for your nasty attacks...so be it. The engorged pachyderm was a work of art!!!! If only I hadn't had that stick surgically removed from my a**, I would have done the PROPER thing and called the authorities. I realize the government is a far reaching and kindly establishment, always there to help me. AAARRRRRGGGHHH! White hats!! A glass of hemlock, por favor http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

....and the guy's not unemployed now..he's just not schlepping over to ESG's barn for 2 hours and 8 bucks. It's not like he lost the pilot's seat on the next moon mission, he was just "in-loaned", excuse me "un-shared" with ESG for 2 hrs. and 8 bucks a day..and as she says..and I quote; "SHE didn't impregnate his wife", what does she care?? Jesus, am I the only one getting physically ill from these remarks?????

[TheJenners]

MY nasty remarks? Hardly. I've only made one nasty remark to you and you personally. And it was in reply to you implying I was illiterate, smug and self-righteous.

Perhaps you ought to look in the mirror before you throw names around. You have implied many things about the OP and anyone else who posted contrary to your views.

And you're right, he isn't completely unemployed, but he certainly isn't employed by ESG any longer.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheJenners:
Enlightened would be calling the city to find the committee who posted the political billboard in your yard and ask them to remove it. Or remove it yourself. Enlightened would not be to draw devil horns and a goatee, or phallic symbols or what have you. That is called childish. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif And so are your posts, implying people are illiterate, smug and self-righteous, esp when that gun is pointed vaguely in my direction. I am not illiterate, obviously. And the smug/self-righteous glove fits on your hand just as easily as anyone else's.

To stay in the same vein:

Quizás si él tuviera pensamiento sobre él antes de que él comenzara el trabajo, él no estarÃ*a en la posición que él ahora está: parados. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I freely admit to not having a clue about the Spanish being tossed around(nor is there anyone nearby to ask), I also find myself confused as to what this comment has to do with anything in this discussion. So she "gave" the Republican elephant an erection ( http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) after it was placed on her property without her consent--so what? Good for her for having a sense of humor and not clogging the phone lines with complaints and ill humor. What does that have to do with the issues of fair wages and the inherently racist overtones that have shocked so many of us here? You seem to be inferring that they are character flaws of an equal nature, and I don't see how that's possible: defacing a sign may cause a momentary discomfort for observers, but that is nothing like denigrating an entire race....

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

¿Qué el infierno usted está hablando? No le he tratado nada. Justo déjeme solo y vaya sobre separar su miseria a otra parte. Mis opiniones llegan a ser fuertes cuando me estoy pegando para arriba para el pequeño individuo. Vaya de nuevo a tirar de las alas de moscas. He tenido bastante de su ugliness.

[Dancing Lawn]

A gentleman, Juan by name and not nature, fell in love with Carmencita, a most possessive girl.
She had heard the gossip that his was a wandering eye but it didn't surprise her because that trait was inherited from his primitive ancestors when they swung continually from limb to limb. she decided there was only one way she could be certain her man would remain faithful until she could exchange the altar for the halter. By accompnying him everywhere, every waking moment, she became the village joke but her vigilance was rewarded when she was able finally to wed her suitor without his ever once being unfaithful, a state of grace hitherto unheard of in all the land.
Everywhere she went, eager, enquiring maidens would ask her for the secret of her success and her wise answer can be condensed to seven words:

You always herd the Juan you love.


Okay, back to your scheduled rant/respond session. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Hey!!! We'll have no humour HERE!!! Next thing you know, you'll be defacing erection, I mean election signs!! HAVE you no SHAME?!...and thanks 3fatpeni..I mean ponies. I was thinking WTF?, and I become inarticulate in my anger and confusion. You done good http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[llt]

OK, I changed my mind. It is perfectly OK to pay someone a pittance and expect them to do an exemplary job. Hell, it's not my fault if they get their wife pregnant, or need to eat. If my aisle is raked haphazardly or the wash stall isn't cleaned properly, I am going to start having a hissy fit, and get pissy about it on a bulletin board where the party in question can't defend himself or tell his side of the story. Yeah............that's it.

[nightsong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aggie4Bar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MyArgie:
Aggie- minimum wage is nationally $5.15, it sounds like your area is higher. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>No, it is only $5.15. I thought it had gone up, but I was wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a Federal minimum wage LAW that certain employers, including those that engage in interstate commerce, pay $5.15 per hour, with overtime and minimum age regulations as well. some states have their OWN minimum wage LAWS, which supersede the Federal regulation. Some higher, some lower (like Wyoming's is either 1.65 or 2.65 per hour, I forget, unless they have VERY RECENTLY raised it, as there was a recent effort in the legislature to do. There are exceptions, as in the National Parks I've worked in, overtime is denied until you hit 70 hours per week.

[appaloosalady]

ESG- please clarify, did you pay 8.50 for 2 hrs of work (4.25 per hr) or 8.50 per hour for 2 hrs? As far as "sharing" rather than "loaning", it still smacks of horrible condecension (sp?). It makes the man sound like property! He is hers to do what she wants with? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

I work in a barn as well as own my own farm. I get paid by the job, and if it takes me 2 hrs or 5 hrs I get paid the same. I like it that way. The barn owner has become a dear friend, I get to watch lessons or gossip with clients as much as I like with the knowledge that I'm not padding a time card. I have seen many barn owners I would NEVER work for. They look down upon the very people they depend upon to keep their business running smoothly and their animals healthy and happy. I have a college degree, 25 yrs experience with horses, and a husband who makes a good living for my family. I work because I LOVE the people I work for and they appreciate me. If you want to find good help, try treating your employees like you yourself would like to be treated, not like someone you think you are doing a great favor for.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

...And YOU, dear Apaloosalady, are invited to dinner! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[appaloosalady]

Racetb - Thank you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I will bring the dessert http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[fullmoon fever]

Assuming that I am also invited to dinner, I welcome the chance to chat with a fellow Appy person!

I've actually thrown out a boarder who had a bad attitude towards my help. Good help is much harder to find than crappy boarders. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

FullMoon....I like your "location"..lol!!!

[Lambie Boat]

racetb
kin eye come 2 dinner? I luv me sum cheese. jest ask coreene. we eat lots a nachos on de bad days.
goes gud wif salsa 2!!

[Dancing Lawn]

HA! as a matter of fact, it looks like we WILL be defacing erectixxxxxxxeLECtion signs, most likely in February, if Jack Layton gets his way! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I have an appy. can I come to dinner too?

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

I'll hear NO more of this wazoo placement on our fine politicians' erec..election signs!! I think Coreene is in charge of this fine soiree. If we hold it here at Ripton, it will consist of emptying the "Save The Prairie Dog" donation jar and running to the corner for Slim Jims and beer. Which is public knowledge..which is why no one ever donates to the poor prairie dogs anymore http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif ..and you'll all have to pick up poops. Life revolves around poops here...about 40 different species' poops; And you think the pay sucks in those previous posts???!!!! Weeee doggie! ...Where ever we hold this thing, those if you that combine a perverse sense of humour with a humble sense of fair play... and a love of animals, are welcome. Republicans even. To the good guys! You know who you are. Many thanks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

"Para todo el ésos invitados a la cena, traen por favor sus propias erecciones."
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[fullmoon fever]

Racetb You're welcome to my location...bunch of stuck-up beotches around here. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif I'm hoping to change that location within the next 6-9 mos.

dancing lawn Hey girl! Weren't we supposed to get together and do some dancing in our cfm pumps?

[Whisper]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheJenners:
Err, I believe the fella had been fired. Let go. Laid off. Downsized. Coporately rearranged. Pink-slipped. Whatever.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Given the other comments on this thread, I think it would be best to just say he got canned. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

If $8.50 per hour is the prevailing wage in the area, I don't see anything wrong with paying that much, though I agree it tends to be tough to find people for such a short shift at that price.

When I was a kid, I usually was paid $5 per stall, or allowed to ride for a half-hour or so instead. That probably worked out to about $15 per hour, which is extremely generous. It was a self-care facility, and quite a few people didn't want to bother with it, though.

[eqnjumperrider]

This thread is ridiculous. RaceTB- You are being very immature. Let it go. While we may not agree with ESG's wages that she pays her help I don't think that we should jump on her. I think that 8.50 an hour is quite low, but I do believe it is above minimum wage. In regards to the comment about "fresh mexicans" I believe that it was very untasteful, I do however do not think that it was this poster's intention to be racist. Everyone needs to simmer down and chill out and move on. Obviously if ESG is not willing to pay more she will not get quality help which is her problem.

[Dancing Lawn]

Would it be politically incorrect to bring hot dogs to a prairie dog soiree? (down here in Canada, we call them gophers.)

We have no republicans down here in Canada. We have conservatives, liberals, and new dempcrats, with a sprinkling of fringe groups, like the Green party.

I will wear 6"spikes and have pink and turqouise streaks in my hair.

[ProzacPuppy]

I am kinda surprised that everyone seems to think that $8.50 an hour is practically slave wages for barn help. Especially part time help that doesn't have much interaction with the horses short of turnout and doesn't groom at shows etc.

While many of bigger barns have one head groom who they will do practically anything to keep (one barn owner bought her head groom a beautiful 4 bedroom house across the street from the farm to make sure he stayed with her once he got married) we have a huge amount of barn workers who are here in the US illegally and temporarily. They intend to work long enough to get some cash and then they return to Mexico. Could be 6 months, could be a year. Some intend to come back but can't get back into the country. There is a huge amount of turnover in barn help.

I don't think you can claim this as a business expense either(cash payments to illegal aliens). I'm pretty sure the IRS would not view it favorably whereas in many areas of the country barn help are handled as "employees". (I have no idea if ESG's help was legal or illegal, just commenting on the state of barn help in general). Financially it makes a difference.

Illegal immigrants with low skill levels (often they have little or no experience with horses) are "worker" not "grooms". They have few options for work- barn help, day labor-which also pays low wages. If they can show that they care about the horses and are eager to learn they can, and do, get pretty well paid. One barn locally has a spectacular groom who began with nothing more than a will to work and a love for the horses. The horse owners noticed how much the horses adored him and how eager he was to help and learn. The barn owner paid him more to keep him, we owners tipped him well after shows, monthly, holidays etc. (Hell, he is probably making more than I do now, with no IRS sucking up half of it too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). I'm sure that just about any barn in Houston would love to steal him away from this barn. He's made himself a valuable commodity. Big difference between "grooms" and "stall pickers", at least here in Houston.

Texas barn help is not the most lucrative position but the worker does have some control over his earnings.

I am not trying to incite a flame war or online riot. Just stating the facts here in Houston. The population of illegal immigrants is HUGE with limited work options due to their status. It's a supply and demand situation. The truly good "grooms" are in short supply and well paid.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

It was the TONE, not the numbers, that sickened our sensibilities. Besides, WE HAVE moved on!! We're planning our pinko soiree and discussing gophers and CFM pumps...jeez.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

...and how could I EVER assume that the term "FRESH MEXICANS" wasn't meant in a derogatory light?! How else in God's name would one interpret that? You think she borrowed the line from Ghandi??????

Andrea & The Beasts

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

...and if stepping up to the plate for those not in a position to defend themselves [see llt's previous post, thank you llt] is construed as "immature"; then Houston, we have a bigger problem than the Stro's WS loss.

[TheJenners]

Methinks she doth protest too much.

eqnjumperrider - I think Racetb just proved your point...http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

I am not going to PT or use an alias, so this will probably be my last post for reasons that will become clear. You certainly have a penchant for attacking folks when they're down, and this wasn't even your war. Just a place to come and senselessly cause pain. I've tried all my life to fight the good fight. Most of you hunter jumper folks know me. I've been around since dirt. I was blessed with great horsemen and horses to teach me along the way, and a measure of success when at the top of my game. I try to remain professional but compassionate on this little farm of mine. The pensioners and financially disadvanteged, oh hell, poor kids, recieve the same attention as the fancy green prospects and AA riders. My clothes come from GoodWill, and I'll forego a nice horse show if the money is needed for my prairie dog rescue, or a big vet bill for the old mare. The battles I chose aren't picked flippantly..and I am sincere in my beliefs. I also try to bring a sense of grace and humour to it all..God help me. [Just a turn of phrase! Nothing against the Atheists]. ...and I want to thank all the great folks here who've done the same.

Today my best old friend Fatty Pearl [a prairie dog] is going to Rainbow Bridge..so I was shakey anyway. This is a family farm, and my mother just called and has decided my beautiful father, who, without understanding it, supported my horse show career with everthing he had all my life, will be taken by ambulance to Hospice this afternoon. This is the man that instilled in me the characteristics you take such joy in denigrating. Please just leave me alone and be a monster elsewhere.

[JoZ]

My thoughts and prayers will be with you and your dad and Fatty Pearl today, Racetb.

I came back to this thread to ask for a dinner invitation but I think I should maybe bring you a casserole and a nice half gallon of ice cream... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

No JoZ...Gin will still be fine! I refrained from a couple if choice adjectives, so my assumption that I'd be banned may have been premature. I'm just feeling so distraught and didn't need any more ugliness. This too shall pass. Fatty's here in my arms..and I know my Father will be at peace soon. To all the PINKO POSSE gang, a million thanks for the PTs and good thoughts. Get out those CMF pumps and old Che Guevara tee shirts..let's get crackin'. Attached a picture of handsome Dad in WWII http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

[Candle]

What on earth is immature about getting fired up about the topic of racism? Nothing would ever get done if nobody got all fired up about it, and I don't see a damn thing wrong with it.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

.....and Candle has a seat of honour at dinner! These are the questions that scream through my mind when I read these accusations, but I am sometimes rendered mute and inarticulate in the face of it all. Thank you for the voice of reason.

[appaloosalady]

Racetb - my heart cries for you on this day http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif I don't think you have any need to explain yourself or your posts to anybody. Your posts were honest, articulate, and passionate. Without passion, this world would be a sad place indeed.

On a happier note, I will wear fishnets and red spike heels to the soiree. I don't want to feel out of place http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Holly'er Than Thou]

Oh, Racetb,

I'm so sorry to hear about your darling dad and dear little Fatty Pearl. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

Though I don't know you, your dad and his influence on you can be inferred from many of your posts that I have read over the last few years. And I haven't just gone back thru your profile and read these things. They are the bits and pieces that have stuck in my mind that form my impression of you (as fellow posters do to identify each other in their heads). Your unbounded generosity and compassion for those less fortunate (animal and human), your sense of humour, your fierce commitment to your many responsibilities (among, I am sure, many other attributes that I don't even know about) stem from the man who is the ideal of a gentleman and a father. I particularly remember you mentioning his reaction to your Irish trainer's comments about your riding abilities and his unstinting support for your strange obsession with the horse that we all share. This all ties in with your feelings of sadness over the little creature you've looked after and loved, Fatty Pearl. You, your life and how you live it are, and will be, ongoing tributes to the kindness and love he so generously gave you. I wish I had been so lucky.....

Holly

[Duffy]

{{{{ HUGS }}}} to you, Racetb!

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

I knew I joined this crazed forum for a reason!!
Thanks for all the lovely sentiment. Holly'er, that's so sweet you remember my father's "whore of a rider" reaction! ...he's actually perked up a bit and eaten a fudgescicle!! Perhaps with a home-care worker he can remain here a bit longer. Bless you all...now get out the stillettos and champagne!..after you clean the poops, that is.

[BelladonnaLily]

I think this thread is a perfect example of why it is so hard to find good help. Everyone is either on the internet and/or whining about not making enough money, instead of actually working.

racetb, do you actually have a job or is this all you do? Do you even sleep? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[llt]

OUCH!!!!!! Jesus H. Chrysler, leave Racetb alone for a day. She has a very ill father, and still manages to show compassion for an unknown worker. Pick on me if you are feeling vile!

[BelladonnaLily]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by llt:
OUCH!!!!!! Jesus H. Chrysler, leave Racetb alone for a day. She has a very ill father, and still manages to show compassion for an unknown worker. Pick on me if you are feeling vile! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

EXCUSE ME? That was my first post on this thread and it seems like racetb has been stirring plenty of poo on her own. Know the phrase "If you can't stand the heat..." I noticed once someone let her have it back she started her sermon on "THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST!" Yet strangely it wasn't... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Anyhoo, I only browsed through this and for 10 pages I've seen RACETB picking, attacking, jumping, joking, puking and snarking at ESG and the poster that made the "unPC" comment. About every 2 hours throughout the day as a matter of fact. I can see both sides of the issue here but RACETB is acting like a 13 year old. I understand a little humour but come on...10 pages later she is still offended by the "fresh Mexican" remark/joke. BTW, my husband has one of those...not even fresh anymore...and he's the best damn worker he's ever had. Then of course, he's paid REALLY well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ps: That last part was tongue in cheek for all those who might have trouble getting it.

[DillansMom]

Hey Racetb...What a tough day you are having!

Just wanted to chime in and thank you for your stance. You ARE NOT alone!

[shade]

Oh RaceTB the pic of your dad in his uniform brought tears to my eyes..my dad was a WW2 veteren too..he left us 2 months ago...my thoughts and prayers are with you during this difficult time..and as to this topic..all I can say is...Do unto others as you would have them do unto you..

[circusponydreams]

Man, racetb, what a rough week. I think your dad has the right idea, though - we should have fudgsicles at the dinner party!

In all seriousness, though, I'm jingling for you. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[BelladonnaLily]

I will add that I missed the part about racetb's father. I'm very sorry to hear that he is not well. Doesn't change my opinion on this thread but for what its worth, I am sorry. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Dancing Lawn]

I actually walked out on a job last week, after listening to a very racist conversation. When I heard the phrase: 'he niggered it up' in reference to someone trying to repair a robot, that was it, I couldn't work with people like that. Management didn't seem to find anything wrong with it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Hugs to you, racetb.

[nightsong]

Handsome dad, Racetb. Hugs for all... and it's NICE to see that something smaller than a Jack Russell Terrier gets some attention in this world, too. I took three hamsters (my most "transportable" pets at the time) to an animal seminar, and people would ONLY look at the horses. They're "people", too...

[BarbB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BelladonnaLily:
but come on...10 pages later she is still offended by the "fresh Mexican" remark/joke. . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, 10 pages later I'm still offended by it.

and by your following comment also, but let's not muddy the waters.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

When I'm done with singlehandedly caring for 65 animals [most with special needs], 8 horses in training, 9 clients, 2 households, my husband's company's paperwork and pd rescue, tonight..I'll fill you in on my day. OR, I may stick in those adjectives I withheld earlier and it WILL be my last post. Dear Christ, what did I DO to deserve this evil bile??!! ..and to note the times of my posts so you could monitor my use of the computer and denegrate me? Scary. To my friends, Fatty Pearl is happy and whole again at Rainbow Bridge..thank you all so much..she was abused and nameless when she arrived here at Ripton over a decade ago, and won all our hearts. Pic attached http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

[MBS]

OK now that I am housesitting for 32 cats!! and I have a computer that lets me log on to the Board ( I was having trouble at home signing on) I am Chimming in!!!!

ESG most likely has trouble finding help because she is not happy with anyone and NOBODY can do things as well as she can in her opionion. You will see if you read her posts over the years. She bitches about tipping grooms and just about everything else. Go back and read her posts.

As far as the "Fresh Mexican" comment that is just disgusting. But as you can see by that poster she sees nothing wrong with it and therefore IMO is an ignorant racist.


And on that note I must start feeding the Cats. Signing off from Redding CT at the Cat Estate.

MB

[MBS]

p.s where can i get a praire dog? the look so cute

[BarbB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MBS:
p.s where can i get a praire dog? the look so cute </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boulder, Colorado http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
they pick the little filthy varmints up in their BARE HANDS to save them from the construction crews, ranchers, farmers, horse owners, coyotes, owls and anyone else who might hurt their vermin infested little bodies.

[DillansMom]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif


¡Cállate brujer!

[llt]

With the risk of being accused and convicted of picking, attacking, jumping, joking, puking and snarking, and of having my time on the internet monitored by someone other than the CIA, FBI, local constabulatory, or the internet police, oh let me save you a moment, my last post was at 3:45 PM, let me present you with one thought "Justice will only be achieved when those who are not injured by crime feel as indignant as those who are." - King Solomon. Racetb happens to feel that indignancy.

[llt]

And now, in case anyone is monitoring my time on the internet, I am logging off.

[buryinghill1]

I believe many of the "good help" are employed full-time at farms with above-the-norm wages, adequate employer-paid health benefits, decent working conditions, some sort of retirement package, generous time-off and employers whom treat the staff as valued workers - not just "help."
Heck, Wal-Mart is a warm and dry place to work...

[appaloosalady]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BarbB:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MBS:
p.s where can i get a praire dog? the look so cute </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boulder, Colorado http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
they pick the little filthy varmints up in their BARE HANDS to save them from the construction crews, ranchers, farmers, horse owners, coyotes, owls and anyone else who might hurt their vermin infested little bodies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That seems a little harsh and mean spirited http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Aggie4Bar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buryinghill1:
Heck, Wal-Mart is a warm and dry place to work... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Wal-Mart also has a bad reputation for treating its employees like crap. Rest assured, if (big if) ESG's former employee was able to get a job there, he'd not make more than the minimum $5.15/hr.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Par for the course, appaloosalady. Par for the course. Again, I'm one of those bleeding heart idiots who travels to pd towns to save those that I can. There is nothing more heart wrenching than arriving at a newly bulldozed construction site to see maimed and dying families of pups, staggering about in pain and fear. They are loving pets..filled with personality. Who else is going to sit up, throw their fat little arms in the air, and holler YAHOO! when you walk in??!! I kid you not!

[buryinghill2]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aggie4Bar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buryinghill1:
Heck, Wal-Mart is a warm and dry place to work... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Wal-Mart also has a bad reputation for treating its employees like crap. Rest assured, if (big if) ESG's former employee was able to get a job there, he'd not make more than the minimum $5.15/hr. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aggie4bar-
I think you missed the sarcasm in that post.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

MBS..You're right down the road!! If we're blessed with a litter this year..There's a baby with your name on it! Here's a picture of last year's baby girl http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[allicolls Aefvue Farms Deep South]

Wow, I never heard of anyone keeping prairie dogs as pets...but I have always thought they were adorable. How easy are they to keep?

[DillansMom]

Oh my! Who knew prairie dogs were SO cute? I honestly had no idea that they were good pets, or that they needed rescuing.

I love Gretadillo too.

[Aggie4Bar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buryinghill2: Aggie4bar-
I think you missed the sarcasm in that post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Must have. It's hard to tell sometimes on here, where a clearly tongue-in-cheek comment can incite 12 pages of outrage... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Every pd is different. I have a couple of old coots that charge out of the tackroom like pit bulls if you have the nerve to try and retrieve your saddle http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif..and then Sweetpea who spends the whole day reaching up to everyone with her fat little arms to be picked up. Some lie belly up in my bed eating contraband and watching t.v., others chew everything in sight like a herd of beavers on crack. They demand lots of attention..but when you hold one of these Yahhooing sweeties in your arms, you're a goner http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[MBS]

Oh no!! Now i dont know if iwill be able to wait till after Thanksgiving to come and visit your farm, I want to see the Prairie dogs!!!

Mary Beth

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

As soon as we have things settled with Dad...you can come smooch the pups anytime!..and the patagonian cavy...and the deer..and a cast of thousands. Bring Fruit Loops, you'll be the hit of the habitat! Filthy, but a hit. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[llt]

Things have gone awry, Racetb is not the Mother Theresa of prairie dogs she seems to be. Just last night I heard her mumbling about fresh prairie dogs.

[nightsong]

That baby prairie dog IS SO CUTE...

[ProzacPuppy]

They sell prairie dogs in pet stores.

buryinghill- Are you talking about barn help? I don't think there are ANY barns down this way that offer that except possibly some large racing or breeding farm. Boarding and training barns just don't do that.

Do boarding and training barns in other areas actually offer that much to grooms or are you talking about major breeding set ups?

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

They are tooooo sweet. One more of Buttercup being pounced on by her baby brother.
llt!! Just when we got things down to a dull roar...arrrrrrgh. LMAO!!
Also gang..Dad remained at home. He did rally a bit today, and my whole family is coming to help sort things out ...so say a prayer. Thanks!

[ProzacPuppy]

Leave the 'stros out of this or there is gonna be trouble.

(Of course if we could just get a few "fresh" ones we might have a chance at the WS next year).

[HorseProtectionLeague]

Racetb... I waaannt one... but they are native here so we can't keep them as pets! The closest I came is one that showed up and stayed in my yard for a few weeks before moving on- I think she was in the process of leaving one colony for another. I'm always chasing them out of the streets so they don't get hit, too, because if one gets hit the rest all run into the road to try to revive the dead one, then all of them get hit.

I want a Patagonian Cavy, too. I believe that's what I saw in a zoo as a child, walking around loose after escaping from its cage. It let me pat it and followed me to the nearest zookeeper. Looking at the picture, that's what it looked like.

[fergie]

Umm, I'm looking for part time work. $10.00 an hour sounds fine to me and I have lots of experience from racehorses to olympic horses to horses in the horsey hospital. My driver's license is valid and I'm not a crackhead (or a drinker)...

[fergie]

Ohhh, so sorry.... I just read page one, didn't read the other 12 - now you guys are talking about prarie dogs.... please disregard

[fullmoon fever]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Umm, I'm looking for part time work. $10.00 an hour sounds fine to me and I have lots of experience from racehorses to olympic horses to horses in the horsey hospital. My driver's license is valid and I'm not a crackhead (or a drinker)... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh, but are you FRESH! j/k

I'm sure you're nowhere near me, but I'll bet someone on here will snap you up!

[Jewels]

Wow, you people all pay good. My first stall mucking job was 3$ an hour for 30 stalls. Of course I was 12 and didn't know any better. But even at my next barn job mucking three barns a day I only made 7$ an hour, not even minimum wage. *sigh* My problem is the opposite, finding a barn that pays well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[allicolls Aefvue Farms Deep South]

Racetb, you and your family are in my prayers...
And do prairie dogs thrive in the tropical climate of Alabama?

[HorseProtectionLeague]

Just finally read through this and feel that I need to add a big HUG for RaceTB- I never liked my biological father, but now that I've been 'adopted' (not legally, just hug-wise) by a family and have a 'dad' I really adore, I couldn't imagine him being ill! My adopted grampa is a WWII veteran himself- they are great men and all have wonderful stories. I just saw a headline saying that 50,000 WWII and Korea veterans are expected to pass on in the next several years... what a loss for the people who won't ever get to sit and listen to funny, touching, and scary war stories. Gramps loves to tell anyone who will listen how to make alcohol from torpedo fuel- and how many times he was demoted for doing so!

My hedgies send a big spiny kiss to Fatty Pearl. And might I add, that baby Prairie Dog is the cutest thing!