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pasturepal
Mar. 26, 2010, 11:22 AM
deleted

Lieslot
Mar. 26, 2010, 11:41 AM
Whilst we don't know the nature or details of how the horse threw the rider, that doesn't necessarily make a horse unmarketable or less talented, or am I seeing this the wrong way?

CKD's accident was extremely unfortunate, but I didn't think this would put the horse in a negative daylight or less talented for its work therefore less of a sales prospect.

If a horse has shown a chronic behavorial issue that is potentially going to put future riders at risk, it should be mentioned, but not all falls need to downgrade the horse, some are just unfortunate bad luck happenings.

Actually this got me thinking, 'Would I buy a horse if I know someone had previously fallen off the horse?'

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 26, 2010, 11:54 AM
Well I would ask her, the owner.

Ive been thrown by the horse I never felt I would come off of, and stayed on the one that tried to throw me once a week.


In fact, the horses at our barn that have gotten people off, are generally the school horses that are mild tempered.


LOL horse relativity.

CHT
Mar. 26, 2010, 11:57 AM
I am on the fence about this one. We don't know the nature of the incident. It could be something where the horse was truely not to blame, such as another horse bolted in to him and rider came off.

It would be sad to see a horse labled as dangerous forever due to an unfortunate incident.

If it was due to the horse having a dangerous habit, then I agree they are negligent.

As the incident seems to be public knowledge though, they should likely come clean with details.

tigrrlily04
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:03 PM
Before making an assessment if that was unethical or not to not disclose the information, I think you need to know the details of the incident. If it is a recuring issue with this horse, then yes, I believe it is the seller's responsibility to mention this to a potential buyer. If it was the result of some isolated situation that set the horse off, then as a seller I don't know if I would feel the need to disclose that to a potential buyer. E.g., about a year ago I was at a show cooling down, walking my "bombproof" horse along a fenceline after a class. We stumbled across a bee hive that had apparently fallen off the fence. I got stung a few times swatted at them so was a little off balance, and the horse took a few of them like a champ before throwing some bucks that unseated me and left me sprawled out across the fence with him galloping off. The fall left me out of the saddle for about a month. Is he a dangerous horse, heck no, anyone can ride him (unless of course he's getting stung by a swarm of bees). I don't know if I would feel the need to tell that story to a buyer or not.

tigrrlily04
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:09 PM
On another note...your heading is a little dramatic for this situation, unless you were being sarcastic (which by the tone of your post doens't appear to be the case). It doesn't mention that the horse ever killed anyone, and many riders have taken unfortunate falls on very nice/reliable mounts and gotten injured. If I was the seller and read the post I think I would be quite disturbed that someone implied --in a public forum-- that my horse had the potential to kill someone based off of a very brief article that was dug up on the Internet, especially considering that no one knows the real story behind the incident.

tigrrlily04
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:15 PM
The story is on the trainers website - it was not a beehive incident. I don't want to be too specific for obvious reasons.

OK, this is more information than what I, and obviously other people who responded, got when reading your original post. In this case, if you have information that shows that the horse has a behaviour issue, then I 100% agree that it should have been disclosed and the seller is in the wrong.

Coppers mom
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:19 PM
If the trainer's website doesn't explicitly say "Betty was riding Poopsiekins, known for being a man eating, fire breathing monster, and was nearly killed", then I really do think you're being overly dramatic.

Even if the horse is some kind of monster, I still think you're being a little overdramatic with the posting and acting like it could save a life, blah blah blah. Kind of like the "I challenge everyone to wear a helmet" and the "Look at his eyes when he's in RK!" posts. If the seller is dishonest, so what? They aren't the first and won't be the last. No reason to get uppity about it.

dalpal
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:23 PM
If the trainer's website doesn't explicitly say "Betty was riding Poopsiekins, known for being a man eating, fire breathing monster, and was nearly killed", then I really do think you're being overly dramatic.

Even if the horse is some kind of monster, I still think you're being a little overdramatic with the posting and acting like it could save a life, blah blah blah. Kind of like the "I challenge everyone to wear a helmet" and the "Look at his eyes when he's in RK!" posts. If the seller is dishonest, so what? They aren't the first and won't be the last. No reason to get uppity about it.


Agree. :yes:

NJRider
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:24 PM
It is your job as the buyer to ask these questions, if it was important to have a record on every time someone fell off that horse. Most of the time, falls are the riders fault, not a reflection of the horse. If they disclosed the horse had issues, that was appropriate. It is your job to ask for specifics.

HenryisBlaisin'
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:36 PM
This is an interesting debate. I do think that there is not enough information here to make a call on this particular situation. Strange things happen with horses, and that doesn't make them dangerous or even "problem" horses. Unless it is proven that there is/was NO physical issue to cause the problem and it was not an isolated incident.

OTOH, if a horse has done similar things over a period of time with different riders (i.e. has reared on five different riders falling on one of them, and has no physical issues to account for it), then yes, I believe the owner has the obligation to disclose.

Some buyers will not be put off by a one-time incident, no matter what the outcome was to the previous rider; some will find it a deal-breaker no matter what the circumstances were if the rider was badly hurt. There are buyers willing to take on chronic problem horses too, if the horse is talkented enough, but in those cases, the seller needs to have an honest dialogue with the buyer about the horse's issue.

From my personal perspective: I bought my current horse for next to nothing because he was a "problem horse." Supposedly he bolted with his owner while she was mounting and she fell off. He has never done anything but stand like a rock for me, ever. A subsequent lessee sent him home after he (supposedly) reared and then bucked a friend of hers off. He has never offered to buck or rear when I've ridden him, ever. If I had listened to them instead of my gut about this horse, I'd have missed an awesome opportunity. So I say, listen to your gut instinct about the horse.

Coppers mom
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:00 PM
Someone over on off course did pretty much the same thing. Joined, made first post about dishonest sellers, then deleted everything when people didn't agree.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.....

Dressage Art
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:27 PM
I don't know what horse OP is talking about, but I hope that owners would disclose horse's vices. But some people have different opinions on what is considered a vice.

While every horse can buck, I hope that sellers would disclose dangerous behavior such as bronco bucking or line bucking, rearing, stumbling and falling, throwing head way back to kick the rider in his face, biting, sticking, etc, etc...

I myself had been in the situation of trying a new horse and ending up in ER with a broken bone from a handful of line bucks. I know a clinician who got on a horse that put his head upward and to his chest and took of with him. I know a trainer who took a horse in training and he reared up and fell down with her pinning her under (repeatedly) ... and none of those were disclosed by owners and they should off been.

There is a difference in just a "happy to be alive buck/spook" and "I want you off back NOW" behavior. Dangerous behavior always should be disclosed. But that would turn away many potential buyers and lower the price of the horse as well - so yes, there are sellers who do not disclose a dangerous behavior of their horses.

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:37 PM
Im just curious what is line bucking?

I agree with above, it a can go both ways.

Alagirl
Mar. 26, 2010, 02:43 PM
I thought it was a warning for the junior riders...

Dressage Art
Mar. 26, 2010, 03:07 PM
Im just curious what is line bucking?Line of continues bucks. I usually fall down after 4/5 line bucks. But I know a local young horse trainer who's record is 14 line bucks!

Coppers mom
Mar. 26, 2010, 04:18 PM
I will try to clarify. I did not delete posts because people did not agree with me. I thought I hadn't communicated my situation clearly enough and was challenged on how to do so without being too specific. I was sincere in my effort to say do your homework (internet research etc) because I thought I had. I will try one more time. I responded to an ad. The horse had an excellent record - easily verifiable on line. The horse was currently not in work because the owner wanted to give the horse a break from what had been a very active training and showing schedule. I stated the rider wanted to be able to test horse under saddle - get back to me when horse is under saddle. The owner sent many emails over months with great detail about horse wanting us to buy horse and fulfill horses potential. I asked many questions (not new to horse business) and thought I covered all my basis. Did search on internet and found much of the information provided by owner could be confirmed. Spoke with judges who remembered horse as talented. I did one last search. I then found an obscure mention in an article that the accomplished professional who brought horse along suffered in their words an injury that they thought would end their riding career while riding this horse. It took them a long time to recover from the accident. I do not blame the horse - accidents happen. I did feel the owner should have mentioned this. I did email the owner and have received no response. I have had several horses who had "histories". They were revealed by sellers and we knew to proceed with care. The horses all went on to significant careers. I do feel this could have ended badly - severe injuries or more. I was being sincere - because I thought it could help someone else and I believe a potential buyer has a right to decide if they want to pursue such a situation.
If it was an accident, then there is no need to say "well he broke Betty's back and now she's going to spend the rest of her life in a wheelchair". This isn't history, this is someone got hurt while participating in a dangerous sport by chance.

ANYTHING with horses can end badly. Going onto an internet BB to try to save lives or whatever by encouraging people to look into the horse they're buying, and trying to make something out of nothing is ridiculous and way over dramatic.

Going by everything you've said, the owner wasn't being dishonest in any way. They aren't preventing the buyer from making a good, informed decision, and they aren't misrepresenting the horse. The horse Courtney fell from shouldn't be stigmatized as dangerous because of a freak accident, and neither should this horse.

Ibex
Mar. 26, 2010, 04:29 PM
I agree. I wouldn't necessarily disclose an unfortunately accident right off the top. (Emphasis on ACCIDENT).

If this were a repeat behavior, the horse had anything that might make it dangerous etc, that would be different.

Gry2Yng
Mar. 26, 2010, 06:23 PM
Let me tell you about an ABSOLUTELY LOVELY AND GENUINE training level/novice level event horse. Scoped out at 3'. But did his best for his owner at 3'3" (training). And it made him sore and he never got any maintenance.

BNT's were lining up to buy this horse for 10 year old kids. He was a crappy mover, but honest as the day is long. His stride was about 10 foot. Owner decided she had to go prelim. EVERYONE told her neither she nor the horse could do it. One day, on her own, she galloped the poor guy down to a 3'6" oxer, missed and broke her neck when he tried to put on the brakes and slid thru the jump. She was not solid in the tack and she put him in a terrible position. She lived and healed and rides today. It would be an injustice to even mention what happened in the same conversation that one marketed this horse.

If horses lived forever, I would buy that horse for my 3 year old child and she could ride him through BN and I would NEVER worry. He was an angel from heaven for his owner and any other horse would have given her the bird three years before she broke her neck.

Alagirl
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:06 PM
Line of continues bucks. I usually fall down after 4/5 line bucks. But I know a local young horse trainer who's record is 14 line bucks!

over 8 seconds?

Coppers mom
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:23 PM
I have appreciated the many viewpoints others have shared. I don't think it necessary to call one uppity, dramatic, ridiculous etc as you have called me in your responses.
It is indeed dramatic to question a sellers honesty, imply impending doom, and carry on the way you have over an accident. Seriously, stuff happens. No one's going to die or is being dishonest or needs to be saved.

Maybe this is why you still haven't found a horse after so many months. You seem to be making mountains out of mole hills here. Another example right on this thread? I never once called you a name. There's a difference between a personal attack and acknowledging that a situation is really being blown out of proportion.

EqTrainer
Mar. 26, 2010, 08:09 PM
I think that if a horse has launched a professional that it should be revealed to a prospective buyer or, for that matter, anyone who is going to get on the horse. We have to assume that pro's don't come off horses as easily as most people do, yes, we are all subject to the laws of gravity but there's a big difference between some kid sliding off LMEqT's ponies neck when she was a school horse and - for example - the horse who threw me and broke my collar bone who just happened to have thrown a very well known BNT the week before. I was not told and I should have been. Nor was I told about every time a kid fell off Rosie before we bought her and I shouldn't have been.

If nothing else - for no other reason - if you don't disclose an event that ends up w/a pro on the ground, it will get back to someone later and they may be very unhappy about not having heard it from you. I make a point to tell people when I sell a horse about most stupid things that may have happened during the time that I have owned it or trained it. If it is off-putting to them (and often it is) I am sorry, I do think that people - for the most part - are happier not knowing things but I have a responsibility to tell them anyway. Another way to say that is that everyone wants complete disclosure but no one wants to buy a horse they know everything about. Which is why people often buy horses from liars. If someone tells you that a horse has never been lame, never spooked and never had anyone come off their back they are probably lying but that is what everyone wants to hear.

Certainly if a horse has a "habit" of doing something the seller or owner has a responsibility to tell anyone getting on the horse about it.

Ok, I've been locked up in the house most of the day w/sick children and now it's freezing cold outside and raining and.. sorry about all that :lol:

OP, you might want to change the title of this thread if you want productive "conversation".. as it stands, it is bound to provoke an argument instead.

Dressage Art
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:49 PM
the horse who threw me and broke my collar bone who just happened to have thrown a very well known BNT the week before. I was not told and I should have been.Yep, absolutely I would want it disclosed! At least then I can make my own decision if I feel like a bronco rider or want to preserve my aging bones ;) And I rode/ride some horses that are deemed dangerous by some pro trainers, but I know that what can trigger them and I thread lightly around them. Like I don’t use a whip with one horse at all or light with the reins, triple check on breaks, and so on…

If you don't know that the horse done it before and it’s presented to you as “a nice-natured, easy going fellow”, you tend to put your guard down. And anybody can fall off, anybody!

JMurray
Mar. 28, 2010, 08:51 AM
I would have to agree with some of the posters that your title is overlly dramatic...Do Homework or Die. Seems a bit absolute don't ya think?

It is good advice to do your homework, be educated and make an informed decision. I get your point but personally disagree with your method.



I have known people to drop the price on a horse that was involved, but not at fault, in a serious injury. The word does get out and some people will be put off by it. Most will not be.

I feel it should be disclosed only in the context of what happened. For example, was the horse overfaced beyond it's ability? If so Seller should say horse cannot do above certain level as not capable and explain why. Or if rider lost stirrup got off balance and fell off, sustaining serious injury...why is that something to be disclosed?

We do not know what this particular horse's predicament was when the accident happened. If it is not related to anything the horse did or did not do, that may be why the seller doesn't disclose it.

You need to get more of the facts before making assumptions. Do your homework.

supershorty628
Mar. 28, 2010, 09:28 AM
OP, I know this isn't what you want to hear, but you are being overly dramatic. Really.

My mom is a professional (although in the h/j world, not dressage) and broke her collarbone really badly a few years ago riding a horse who was easily one of the sweetest and easiest horses at the barn we were at. He stumbled and went down on his knees and she went over his head, landing in just the right way to break her clavicle in 2 places. She was out of commission for 6 months. Does that reflect on the horse? No. He tripped. She landed wrong. Things happen.

If the majority of the feedback you have gotten about this horse is good, then go with it. There will always be some naysayer if you search enough, but you don't need to blow something (that you don't have any detailed info about) up into a catastrophe.

exvet
Mar. 28, 2010, 11:10 AM
I guess I am in the minority here. Since I don't know the details I'm going to side with the OP. I have three really bad characters due to training/mishandling issues. Every single owner (not seller because these were all given to me) was honest and forthcoming. Mine was a fully informed decision in each case. Of the 3, two have gone on to be productive citizens though not ones I would trust beginners or children to ride without incident. The third one is downright dangerous. He will hurt himself to evade/get out of a situation he finds as hard, scarey, or simply an area/place he doesn't want to be. The two who have done well have wicked bucks and do so to unseat the rider. They are also rather skilled as to know when their best advantage to ridding the rider is. The point is that there are dangerous rides out there especially if they get into the wrong hands. I am not complaining. As I said, I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. However, while I was fully informed, I did find it amazing how many people wanted to tell me the gory details after they found out I had acquired these horses, almost like tattletaling on the former owner as opposed to wanting to make sure that I don't get hurt. Which leads me to a case where I acquired a weanling. I did grill the breeder as to the background on sire and dam. This foal was out of the first foal crop so there were no older siblings to compare to or inquire about. I do my homework as best as I can; but, I was still surprised when 4 years down the road I started having some unique challenges with the (former) weanling. I contacted the breeder - total denial of any similar issues with parents or siblings. Then I started getting calls & emails from the sire's trainer, her students who witnessed the events, owner of sire's full brother (also standing at stud), etc. The full picture took on a whole new "hue". The story has a happy ending in that the now 6 year old is a good egg but I could have been seriously injured and/or the horse in question could have ended up in a very bad position with someone else or if I had decided I had had enough/couldn't work through the problems.

I guess for now I'm willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt, maybe because I do take on restarts/problem horses. I always appreciate having as much information as possible yet horses being horses there can still be surprises.

Coppers mom
Mar. 28, 2010, 07:52 PM
Well, no, you really don't have the details either. You contacted the owner for specifics, and she did not respond, so you are assuming that it was some awful catastrophe that negatively reflects on the horse.

It's been months, and you still don't want the horse. More than likely she's decided you're just a tire kicker and decided to quit responding. Not a big deal. Personally, I would have just given up after the initial "I don't want to see him if he's not under saddle".

Gry2Yng
Mar. 28, 2010, 07:56 PM
In my book, as a buyer, horses are caveat emptor, period. (As a seller, I will tell you what I know.) I assume that I am only getting the good side of the story with any horse I buy. The only one who is truly looking out for me is ME!

Coppers mom
Mar. 28, 2010, 11:01 PM
Coppers Mom - I don't know if you mean to come across as you do - you now claim to know what I do know and don't know about this indcident,
According to you, you didn't get a response from the buyer, so no, you don't know all the facts of the situation.


you claim to know whether I bought a horse or horses or not,
According to you, you're still entertaining this seller's e-mails. Therefore, you must not have bought another horse, or at least considering the purchase of another.


you continue to mention how I think this reflects negatively on the horse when I say over and over I don't see it that way.
If you don't think it reflects negatively on the horse, what was the point of this post? Do your homework or die? You obviously think that the horse has done something to make him untrustworthy.

I haven't assumed or made any outrageous claims, these comments were all based on what you have posted.


You call me dramatic, ridiculous, uppity and a tire kicker. It is appropriate to expand the conversation with your experiences or your suggestions but these personal attacks are not necessary.
I think you need to learn the difference between a personal attack and a comment on a situation. I have not once personally attacked you on this thread. I've pointed out that your reaction to the situation was overdramatic, but have not said that you as a person are. I said that getting all up in arms and posting on an internet BB in this manner was uppity, but did not say that you were.

And the tire kicker comment didn't even have anything to do with you, so I'm really quite impressed that you were able to turn that into a personal attack. It was about the seller and why they may not have e-mailed back. When correspondence about a horse turns into more of a lengthy, back and forth, pen-pal type of relationship that never leads to a visit, most buyers are going to cut the communication off, and write it off as just another tire kicker. That has absolutely nothing to do with you. It has to do with the seller and how they react.

I'm not coming across as any way, you are just making something out of literally nothing.



It is also interesting to me you gave the exact opposite advice in another thread where you stated the buyer should warn everyone about the seller. I guess if I had bought the horse you would advise differently?
I in no way shape or form gave the opposite advice. When a seller is in the wrong, they certainly should be outed. But in this situation, with the facts given, the seller isn't doing anything to be unscrupulous. That's just an assumption you made because you didn't get a response. I am ALL for people getting their comupins, but only when they deserve it.

up-at-5
Mar. 29, 2010, 07:14 AM
This is a long story that I will shorten...there was a horse who "tried to kill" his owner...owner sent him for meat. Dealer resold him to a woman, a friend of mine, (previous owner was also a "friend" of mine, hence the long story) New owner never had a fall from this horse, took him everywhere, never an issue. Two woman crossed paths and the history of the horse came to light.Previous owner wanted to buy horse back so she could ensure his death, current owner freaked, "no way" she said.
Horse is living happily every after. Just goes to show that stuff happens, doesn't mean it will, in many cases,happen again.
That said, we have sold two horses, and were completely and utterly up front with any issues the horses had.

Coppers mom
Mar. 29, 2010, 09:58 AM
This is a long story that I will shorten...there was a horse who "tried to kill" his owner...owner sent him for meat. Dealer resold him to a woman, a friend of mine, (previous owner was also a "friend" of mine, hence the long story) New owner never had a fall from this horse, took him everywhere, never an issue. Two woman crossed paths and the history of the horse came to light.Previous owner wanted to buy horse back so she could ensure his death, current owner freaked, "no way" she said.
Horse is living happily every after. Just goes to show that stuff happens, doesn't mean it will, in many cases,happen again.
That said, we have sold two horses, and were completely and utterly up front with any issues the horses had.

:eek::eek:

People are just crazy. We were given a horse because he "spooked", and the owner said they'd give us the money if we wanted to put the horse down. Now, maybe I'm just jaded because I ride *actual* spooky horses, but I'd but my grandmother on this horse, he is THAT good :lol:

It's amazing how people can blow things with their horses so out of proportion. A boarder at my old barn was convinced there was something wrong with her horse, and she whined about it to everyone, but he was perfectly fine for anyone else who handled him. I wonder if anyone ever told her there was nothing wrong with him, she was just irritating...

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 29, 2010, 11:28 AM
Op, Coppers Mom feels it is her job to let any OP know when they have stepped off of the path of righteouness...



I HAVE had a horse sold to me that was known to rear. I was sick the first time I took him to a show and found that out the hard way. I was so ill after hearing from several people, "Oh, you didnt know about that?"

It could have ended very poorly for me, and I would caution anyone before buying ANY horse.

Coppers mom
Mar. 29, 2010, 12:05 PM
Yeah, I'm such a meany head! I mean, how could I tell Nom that it wasn't exactly good friend behavior to start a thread bashing her friend after saying she had a good lesson :lol:

OP: What I'm basically saying is that there is a career ending injury caused by an accident, and one caused by a jerk of a horse. Just because the pro nearly had her riding career cut short doesn't necessarily mean that the seller is misrepresenting a horse.

Now, if the pro said that it almost ended her career because the horse was a monster, then there was really no need to post this or even send the seller another e-mail. The horse is a jerk and be glad you found it out.

But, you don't really specify either way, and it does sound more like you found a blurb on a website about a pro's injury, and asked for more info from the owner. From what you've written, it sounds like you had a lot of good feedback from other venues (judges, shows, etc), then found a small blip, and blew it up into a dishonest seller situation.

lstevenson
Mar. 29, 2010, 02:03 PM
That said I do not understand the need to make things personal. Coppers Mom - I don't know if you mean to come across as you do - you now claim to know what I do know and don't know about this indcident, you claim to know whether I bought a horse or horses or not, you continue to mention how I think this reflects negatively on the horse when I say over and over I don't see it that way. You call me dramatic, ridiculous, uppity and a tire kicker.


Pasturepal - Don't let Coppers Mom bother you....that's just the way she is to everyone...likes to think she is 'all knowing'. Maybe you want to try the ignore feature?

IMO, unless there was a true accident, any incidents that caused serious harm to a professional rider should definitely be disclosed to any potential buyer.

Coppers mom
Mar. 29, 2010, 06:46 PM
Pasturepal - Don't let Coppers Mom bother you....that's just the way she is to everyone...likes to think she is 'all knowing'. Maybe you want to try the ignore feature?

Why hello, pot :lol:

ETA: I think it's funny that I'm always the one singled out as the meany head. NOM posted a scathing rant about her friend's good lesson, everyone said "well that's crappy", but it's CM who's the meany head. Lstevenson grossly exaggerated her experience (according to her own website) and showed how very little she knew about hunters, everyone said "no honey", but it's CM who's the meany head. I suppose it's because I don't typically post unless my BS meter goes off, but I think it's quite funny that I'm being accused of being argumentative by these two particular posters.

HeyJealousy
Mar. 29, 2010, 07:56 PM
Why hello, pot :lol:

ETA: I think it's funny that I'm always the one singled out as the meany head. NOM posted a scathing rant about her friend's good lesson, everyone said "well that's crappy", but it's CM who's the meany head. Lstevenson grossly exaggerated her experience (according to her own website) and showed how very little she knew about hunters, everyone said "no honey", but it's CM who's the meany head. I suppose it's because I don't typically post unless my BS meter goes off, but I think it's quite funny that I'm being accused of being argumentative by these two particular posters.

This. :D

narcisco
Mar. 29, 2010, 08:20 PM
Although I often say those words to my son, I think the right title to the thread might be, "ask the right questions or die!" I get the OP's point.

I do not pretend to be a lawyer, so please don't use this as legal advice.

It is my understanding in horse sales that if the buyer asks a question and the seller blatantly lies about the answer, then there are possible grounds for a lawsuit, a type of fraud akin to false advertising. There would have to be proof that the seller knew about the previous behavior. If an injury results because the seller lied about the horse's behavior and the buyer bought the horse and got hurt, then an even greater lawsuit could ensue because there would be greater damages.

If the buyer does not ask the correct question, such as, "has this horse ever been involved in an injury accident or a death?" or "does this horse, rear, bolt, or buck?" or "has this horse ever fallen?" then it's much harder to prove a sin of omission. You'd have to prove the seller knew about the behavior. Then you might have to prove the seller deliberately failed to tell the buyer.

The same holds true for soundness issues. As a buyer, you must ASK all those seemingly obvious questions: Has the horse ever been lame, injured, or ill? What has the vet seen the horse for? If you do not ask the questions, you are not doing your due diligence, your homework as it were, and you are not taking the best steps to protect yourself.

The moral of the story: Buyers, ask all the questions. Sellers, answer them honestly.

lstevenson
Mar. 29, 2010, 08:30 PM
Lstevenson grossly exaggerated her experience (according to her own website) and showed how very little she knew about hunters,

Once again, just like with this OP's situation, you have NO idea of what the truth is. But you ass-ume you do.

I have not even slightly exaggerated my experience. Feel free to ask any of the Olympic level trainers I have worked with.

My pictures, records, ect. are out there for everyone to see. But what about you...hmmm? What have you done? Where is the *proof* that you know anything at all about anything?

HeyJealousy
Mar. 29, 2010, 09:07 PM
Once again, just like with this OP's situation, you have NO idea of what the truth is. But you ass-ume you do.

I have not even slightly exaggerated my experience. Feel free to ask any of the Olympic level trainers I have worked with.

My pictures, records, ect. are out there for everyone to see. But what about you...hmmm? What have you done? Where is the *proof* that you know anything at all about anything?
She's worked with Olympic trainers, too. And can ride anything in the barn. I'll let her prove it if she wishes..but if my word counts for anything, there it is.

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 29, 2010, 10:01 PM
lstevenson

I am glad that your website got brought up.

There are some wonderful pictures on there :)

mvp
Mar. 30, 2010, 06:54 AM
I think that if a horse has launched a professional that it should be revealed to a prospective buyer or, for that matter, anyone who is going to get on the horse. We have to assume that pro's don't come off horses as easily as most people do....
If nothing else - for no other reason - if you don't disclose an event that ends up w/a pro on the ground, it will get back to someone later and they may be very unhappy about not having heard it from you.

I'm with EqT on this. I have ridden horses with bad reputations for hurting pros, with full disclosure from owners. I give them the chance to make any contextualizing explanation/excuse they wish. I ask additional questions I think I need to in order to figure out horseling's head and keep my butt safe. Handing this horse onto the next person (incidentally a pro), I hung out with him for the first ride and told him *everything* I knew about the horse while he was in my care.

When a pro comes off, it's right to assume the horse had something to do with that. Not all pros are created equal, of course, nor are they exempt from bad luck and random accidents. But I think it would be bad for my reputation and my karma if I didn't do everything in my power to keep the next person safe.

I'd also add that 95% of the time, I know why I came off in the sense that I could see the little wheels in the horse's head turning in such I ended up on the ground. Usually that's a mixture of horse and rider. So what's the shame in full disclosure? It might only tell the next rider something about how the horse's mind works. Since that may or may not change and is something they'll discover anyway, I don't see the harm. It would be much worse to leave the cause of the fall a dark mystery. No one, understandably, wants to buy or swing a leg over a horse they can't fathom.

tigrrlily04
Mar. 30, 2010, 08:05 AM
I just came back to this thread, and have to note that I think this thread would have gone very differently if the OP did not delete the original post, and the folks that posted after #19 (when the post was deleted) had read the info that was originally presented. It's difficult to say that the OP was/was not overly dramatic or fair in the situation if you didn't see the original post. The original post wasn't a simple "do your homework before buying a horse", or "do you think that it's right that a seller not disclose information like this?", it was very accusatory and was as dramatic as the title of the post. It didn't have any info to back it up, which is why all the posters before #19 replied in one manner, and (some of the) posters who didn't have the opportunity to read that have replied in a different manner.


I do have the details - you don't - therefore you can stop with the "you are being over dramatic comments."

I this is the crux of it...there is clearly more info on this incident that you can't provide here. I don't think you can get upset about people responding the way they did given the info that you presented, since it wasn't the full story. You're basically telling people to stop responding how they are because they didn't consider a piece of information that you didn't provide.

And since we still don't know all the info about the situation, I don't know how to respond at this point. One thing I do know is that horse sellers want to sell horses, and more often than not info comes to light after a horse is sold that wasn't disclosed at the time of the sale. For instance....I bought a 5yo gelding, sweetest thing, come to find out he was a stallion until age 4 and has babies running around. If I knew that he was gelded so late I probably would have passed, glad I didn't, but still. I would have thought that the fact he was a stallion for so long was an important piece of info to disclose to a potential buyer. That being said, maybe the seller knew that the fact that he was a stallion would deter potential buyers, and he was such a great/quiet guy that they thought that it was better not to say that since it didn't really matter when considering the horse for a sport horse ride. Just as maybe your seller didn't disclose the info on the professional falling because in their opinion (and I realize it's subjective) it was a once in a lifetime incident that ended badly, and may deter someone from otherwise having a great horse. But now I'll add the question about when a horse was gelded to my list of pre-sale questions, as well as your experience of if the horse has ever thrown a professional rider.

Timex
Mar. 30, 2010, 11:50 AM
Gotta say, some people have WAY too much spare time on their hands, to be indulging in online pissing matches. Don't yall have job? Horses to ride? Kids to raise? Anything? I swear...

That being said, OP, I came into this way late, so didn't read the original posts, they've already been deleted. But the title, by itself, is pretty overdramatic for what is basically a discussion of full disclosure by a seller. Should the seller tell a potential that x number of riders fell off of horsey? No, I wouldn't really want to hear about how suzy fell off every time horsey spooked. Yes, tell me if poopsie is spooky, has a little buck, etc, but do I want to hear about every little incident? Not really. Now, if there is a legitimately dangerous behavior that has caused serious injury, then I want to hear it. In this case, you didn't say that you had spoken to the injured pro straight off, you said that you found a blurb that included a quote from said injured trainer. So don't go jumping down anyone elses throat, because you were not clear there. Just my .02.

Arizona DQ
Mar. 30, 2010, 01:13 PM
My question is, if OP had already told the seller she was not interested, why did she (OP) continue to research the horse she did not want to buy??? I do not have time to waste on random research - "Just for the heck of it".......:no:

Dressage Art
Mar. 30, 2010, 01:23 PM
Pasturepal - Don't let Coppers Mom bother you....that's just the way she is to everyone...likes to think she is 'all knowing'. Maybe you want to try the ignore feature?

IMO, unless there was a true accident, any incidents that caused serious harm to a professional rider should definitely be disclosed to any potential buyer.
Double ditto on BOTH!
I respect lstevenson and enjoy reading her, a lot of her posts are thoughtful and speak of kindness and experience. Coppers Mom is on my "ignore list" since she always, always falls to funny business of name calling and stick pocking. I can't recognize her knowledge from her writing.

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 30, 2010, 01:58 PM
lol

Is there a "I like reading you" list :)

I agree with above, Lstevenson would be on mine if there was one:yes:

Coppers mom
Mar. 30, 2010, 02:13 PM
Double ditto on BOTH!
I respect lstevenson and enjoy reading her, a lot of her posts are thoughtful and speak of kindness and experience. Coppers Mom is on my "ignore list" since she always, always falls to funny business of name calling and stick pocking. I can't recognize her knowledge from her writing.

Aw, hey there kettle!! :D

Again, funny. I was more than respectful on the RK thread we disagreed on, you just read what you wanted to, which is why you didn't "recognize" anything. I clearly outlined various situations that worked, didn't work, etc. The only "name calling" and "stick poking" was my answer to your often redundant and completely out there questions: "I already went over that, read my post". This is another case of everyone saying "Well that's just a little more than silly", and you guys are holding a grudge. Big girl panties everyone.

As another poster stated, the original post was just as dramatic as the title, and that is the context in which I'm taking the information and posting. If you're holding a grudge because you did something equally silly and I called you out on it, so be it.

VA_Hunter_Aside
Mar. 30, 2010, 02:40 PM
When I sold my mare I disclosed everything I knew about her. One day I rode her when she had been off for several weeks. It was windy, the other horse left the ring but we didn't so she had a little fit and reared. It wasn't scary for me and I didn't fall off or get hurt but I told the buyer about it. I told them what kind of personality she had, everything. They tried her, loved her, bought her and she has always been great for them. I would never sell a horse any other way. This was not an expensive sale, this was under 5k. If I was trying to sell a horse for big money you can damned well be sure I would tell the potential buyer about every detail of that horse's training and history, right down to changes I made in his nutrition or tack. Sure, not every buyer wants to know all that but I certainly do.

Dressage Art
Mar. 30, 2010, 03:44 PM
lol

Is there a "I like reading you" list :)

I agree with above, Lstevenson would be on mine if there was one:yes:

That would be a great list. It would be much easier than to waddle thru the repetitive word diarrhea of some self righteous posters!!!

I appreciate all of the sellers who fully disclose all of the information about their horses: soundness, vises and accidents. It's up to the buyer to decide what is a deal breaker for them.

Sandy M
Mar. 30, 2010, 06:42 PM
over 8 seconds?


When my under-exercised (due to injury) being rehabbed youngster took off in a series of line bucks, I stayed on the length of the arena (probably 7 or 8 bucks - definitely 8 seconds or more). It was at the end of the arena where, instead of jumping over an 18" obstance, he hit the brakes, reared and spun that I semi-voluntarily dismounted (awkwardly) and managed to badly bruise my knee. There was no one to score that ride, but my WPRCA experience leads me to believe it would be a low score - It wasn't a very good "spur ride" and that's what gets the high scores!!! ROFLOL

supershorty628
Mar. 30, 2010, 06:50 PM
When my under-exercised (due to injury) being rehabbed youngster took off in a series of line bucks, I stayed on the length of the arena (probably 7 or 8 bucks - definitely 8 seconds or more). It was at the end of the arena where, instead of jumping over an 18" obstance, he hit the brakes, reared and spun that I semi-voluntarily dismounted (awkwardly) and managed to badly bruise my knee. There was no one to score that ride, but my WPRCA experience leads me to believe it would be a low score - It wasn't a very good "spur ride" and that's what gets the high scores!!! ROFLOL

But did you keep one hand off the reins? Don't you get extra points for that (or maybe you're just supposed to do that...I don't know much about bullriding)?

Coppers mom
Mar. 30, 2010, 07:03 PM
When my under-exercised (due to injury) being rehabbed youngster took off in a series of line bucks, I stayed on the length of the arena (probably 7 or 8 bucks - definitely 8 seconds or more). It was at the end of the arena where, instead of jumping over an 18" obstance, he hit the brakes, reared and spun that I semi-voluntarily dismounted (awkwardly) and managed to badly bruise my knee. There was no one to score that ride, but my WPRCA experience leads me to believe it would be a low score - It wasn't a very good "spur ride" and that's what gets the high scores!!! ROFLOL

:lol::lol:

I used to ride at a barn with a woman who wore just ridiculous amounts of makeup, and we always joked if one of the horses took off like that, it'd be like a genuine rodeo!!

lstevenson
Mar. 30, 2010, 08:37 PM
lstevenson

I am glad that your website got brought up.

There are some wonderful pictures on there :)


Thanks! :)

lstevenson
Mar. 30, 2010, 08:40 PM
Double ditto on BOTH!
I respect lstevenson and enjoy reading her, a lot of her posts are thoughtful and speak of kindness and experience. Coppers Mom is on my "ignore list" since she always, always falls to funny business of name calling and stick pocking. I can't recognize her knowledge from her writing.


Thank you as well. :)

TBrescue
Mar. 30, 2010, 08:58 PM
I'll chime in here and just say that it IS important to do your homework and ask the right questions. I was leasing a horse, and was never told that he would rear up and fling himself to the ground. I was told not to lunge him in side reins, that was it. He supposedly had "no vices" and was a willign and well mannered horse (His owner's words)

One day, I was taking a lesson with the owner's trainer, he refused to go forward into contact, kept sucking back and threatening to go up. The trainer bellowed at me "MAKE HIM GO FORWARD" so I popped him with the whip I was carrying (but had never needed previously) Horse takes off line bucking and all it took was 4 before I was eating dirt...once I was on the ground he ran back to the barn.

Barn owner brings horse back to ring, I get back on, however my ACL was torn and I probably should never have gotten back on. I never looked at that horse the same again, and months later after I had purchased a horse of my own I was at a clinic with the same trainer and horse with his owner riding. He went up and over 3 times.....we were all stunned by his behavior and amazed that she was not hurt!

I thanked my lucky stars I escaped that fate!

Isabeau Z Solace
Mar. 30, 2010, 09:31 PM
Sorry I missed the OP but I empathize as I am currently in a situation of having to 'find out the true story' about the past behavior of a horse. The story told to me by the owners was not the true nor total one.

But with the help of the locals I have been able to fill in more of the horse's past behavior issues. I have my opinion of the horse based on my observations, and reports from a small handful of other professionals who have dealt with the horse. Despite this, I have had a difficult time convincing the owner that the horse has a significant issue.

It is not small matter. People need to be upfront about a horse that has been involved in a serious wreck, be it behavioral, illness, or trailer wreck. It they feel it was a fluke, fine, they can say so.

I've had a 'fluke' or two with horses. If you are afraid that a buyer or student etc will 'over react,' then all you are afraid of is their ignorance, and/or their lack of trust in your judgement or reporting.

But I have also known of a few too many horses that had past illness, injury, behavioral "quirk," or other issue that was not reported to the rider, buyer, student, etc. Some people are so desperate to move a situation forward they will not be honest.

OR, perhaps worse, their horsemanship or judgement of horses is not profound enough to know the difference between 'fluke' and 'look out, bad news.' They are 'not conscious of their incompetence' as my favorite teacher might say.

So I will have to agree with the OP (having missed the #1post) that research (especially since it is so available today) is a very good idea.

A friend of mine once approached me one day with what he thought was a "great idea." "Carfax for horses." Horses are at least as dangerous as cars. I can see his point, that it would be so, so, so nice to be able to have access to a reasonably reliable reporting of the history of a horse.