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Velvet
Mar. 25, 2010, 10:09 PM
Anyone see some the latest rule changes? (The new version of the Rule Book just came out yesterday.)

One rather useless rule appears to be the one for putting a horses cavesson two fingers below the cheek bone. First, in dressage, it's often ONE finger length when using a flash so you don't have it hanging down like a figure eight (which it's NOT supposed to look like). Also, who's fingers will be used?

Honestly, if they were going to make changes about the cavesson it should have been for tightness, not for placement on the horse's face. :rolleyes:

Any other changes bugging you or making you happy? (I do love the fact that at the national level you can now ride all FEI tests, including GP, in a snaffle. :D )

dressurpferd01
Mar. 25, 2010, 10:15 PM
Any other changes bugging you or making you happy? (I do love the fact that at the national level you can now ride all FEI tests, including GP, in a snaffle. :D )

That cavesson rule is pointless.

The snaffle at FEI is the continuation of the dumbing down of dressage in this country. Europe is likely laughing at us over this. Absolutely no reason for that kind of rule change.

Dressage+Jumping
Mar. 25, 2010, 10:25 PM
That cavesson rule is pointless.

The snaffle at FEI is the continuation of the dumbing down of dressage in this country. Europe is likely laughing at us over this. Absolutely no reason for that kind of rule change.

Actually the UK has been allowing the snaffle at national level for years... and they are doing pretty well at the moment :yes:

JLR1
Mar. 25, 2010, 10:29 PM
I am pretty damn impressed with riders schooling Grand Prix movements in a snaffle...let alone at a show.

hoopoe
Mar. 25, 2010, 10:31 PM
6. Only those bits listed with Figure 1 are allowed. At any level of competition, a cavesson noseband may never be so tightly fixed that it causes severe irritation to the skin and must be adjusted to allow at least two fingers under the noseband on the side of the face under the
cheekbone
might want to re-read that Velvet

they are talking about tightness not distance from the cheekbone. The words are clear to me, the illustration backs it up

shows where the judgement about degree of tightness is to be made, you check tightness at the side of the face under the cheekbones ( not on the underside of jaw)

ToN Farm
Mar. 25, 2010, 11:01 PM
The snaffle at FEI is the continuation of the dumbing down of dressage in this country. Europe is likely laughing at us over this. Absolutely no reason for that kind of rule change.
No, the dumbing down of dressage is allowing posting trot at First Level and having those ridiculous USDF walk/trot tests. There is nothing dumb about riding FEI in a snaffle.

mypaintwattie
Mar. 25, 2010, 11:47 PM
No, the dumbing down of dressage is allowing posting trot at First Level and having those ridiculous USDF walk/trot tests. There is nothing dumb about riding FEI in a snaffle.

Ouch. the walk trot tests give riders and horses a place to start. All other disciplines have walk trot classes, why should dressage be so elite to require a horse a rider to canter in a test at their first show? Everyone starts somewhere. Last year I showed my horse Intro level because it gave me a chance to get her out and to a show without having to worry about her canter, which just wasn't confirmed enough for me to want to attempt a training level test. My little "dumbed down" Intro tests ended up being the highest scores of the day.

dressurpferd01
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:20 AM
No, the dumbing down of dressage is allowing posting trot at First Level and having those ridiculous USDF walk/trot tests. There is nothing dumb about riding FEI in a snaffle.

I don't disagree with that at all. I'm equally against posting at first level as well.

And yes, I agree a horse should be able to do GP in a snaffle, however, they should be equally comfortable doing in a full bridle, as it gives you the extra finesse and subtle touch to make it that much better.


Ouch. the walk trot tests give riders and horses a place to start. All other disciplines have walk trot classes, why should dressage be so elite to require a horse a rider to canter in a test at their first show? Everyone starts somewhere. Last year I showed my horse Intro level because it gave me a chance to get her out and to a show without having to worry about her canter, which just wasn't confirmed enough for me to want to attempt a training level test. My little "dumbed down" Intro tests ended up being the highest scores of the day.

If your horse can't canter comfortable at a show, it probably shouldn't be there. Just MHO, but that's how I feel. I'm completely against intro level being offered in recognized shows.

mypaintwattie
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:37 AM
If your horse can't canter comfortable at a show, it probably shouldn't be there. Just MHO, but that's how I feel. I'm completely against intro level being offered in recognized shows.

My point is that every other discipline has walk trot classes, it gives a beginner rider or green horse an introduction to the show ring in a safer atmosphere. Why have to wait until you are schooling 1st comfortably before you can show even training level? Typically someone showing Intro is working through training level movements at home. Not everyone is comfortable in the show ring- I know quite a few juniors and adult re-riders who want to get their feet wet in the show ring, and Intro is the perfect place to start. FWIW the Intro tests I did were at a local, unrecognized show, and I can see your point about not having them at a recognized show, but sometimes it is easier to go to a recognized show than a schooling show depending on the area you live in.

BaroquePony
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:46 AM
Posted by mypaintwattie:

Ouch. the walk trot tests give riders and horses a place to start. All other disciplines have walk trot classes, why should dressage be so elite to require a horse a rider to canter in a test at their first show?

Not intending to sound rude, but because dressage is about the training of the HORSE, not the training of the rider. The rider should already be trained and capable of a fairly decent Independent Seat so that he/she can train the horse humanely.

dressurpferd01
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:47 AM
My point is that every other discipline has walk trot classes, it gives a beginner rider or green horse an introduction to the show ring in a safer atmosphere. Why have to wait until you are schooling 1st comfortably before you can show even training level? Typically someone showing Intro is working through training level movements at home. Not everyone is comfortable in the show ring- I know quite a few juniors and adult re-riders who want to get their feet wet in the show ring, and Intro is the perfect place to start. FWIW the Intro tests I did were at a local, unrecognized show, and I can see your point about not having them at a recognized show, but sometimes it is easier to go to a recognized show than a schooling show depending on the area you live in.

Sorry, I take green horses in the show ring for a living, no intro here. At 4 years old, they should be fully capable of showing training level. I'm sorry, but if you aren't comfortable with your horse at all 3 gaits in a show environment, you probably shouldn't be there. Not only are you a danger to yourself, but you're a danger to others.

arabiansrock
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:52 AM
yes there is a place for hte walk trot tests. even at a recognized show. lots of young riders (think the under 10 group) show them for their first dressage experience, and those of us with green horses who just want to get them out and get them experienced to the hustle and bustle of shows appreciate them also. there is nothing wrong with a show offering something for everybody.

my old trainer ALWAYS schooled his gp stallions in a snaffle. the double went on the day before a show just so the horses were comfortable with it, and if you watched him ride, the curb was loose, it was never used. if you are good enough, you don't need the curb to create finesse. he also never wore spurs, he didn't need them. I so do not want to know just how strong his legs were!!!
arabsrock

mypaintwattie
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:58 AM
Not intending to sound rude, but because dressage is about the training of the HORSE, not the training of the rider. The rider should already be trained and capable of a fairly decent Independent Seat so that he/she can train the horse humanely.

In an ideal world yes that would be true, but often it isn't. Not everyone has the budget for a schoolmaster to learn on. Many people who show at intro or training level are coming over from other disciplines, so why penalize them for wanting to try dressage?

Well it looks like I've unfortunately started a train wreck, so since I've said my piece, I'll adjourn.

BaroquePony
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:08 AM
Well, there are tons of places to go ride your horse and actually learn to ride besides a crowded show atmosphere.

Trail riding one to three hours a day six days a week for several years would be a much better foundation than a walk trot dressage test.

Invest your time and money in a good instructor and don't show up at a show until you are really prepared. If you aren't riding well enough to actually score well then you don't really belong there. Practice some self discipline.

exvet
Mar. 26, 2010, 02:50 AM
I'm not a huge fan of the snaffle at FEI nor am I all that supportive of posting the trot at first level other than I guess I can't argue for changes that might benefit the horse (even if it implies that a rider hasn't mastered this or that). However, I am one who shows FEI AND shows Intro. I show FEI at recognized shows and anything from training level on up depending on the beasts I've brought with me. I do also show at a lot of schooling shows. My kids have shown Intro and I take the greenie meanies in Intro as well as the restarts. I have one little restart/rehab project that I purposely took into Intro because of his meltdown reputation at shows. Felt I had him over the issues at home and wanted to test them at a show venue before pushing him to far too fast given his history. I took my three year old in Intro a couple of weeks ago to get him use to a real dressage arena because I do not have one at home. As for his canter, well it's coming along and yes I suppose I could have pushed it at the show but didn't want to. My agenda is a bit different I suppose than some here. As for not belonging at the show and should be staying at home 'cause I ride Intro.....well (a) the mangement sure likes to see my green backs and (b) hee, hee, hee, hee, hee......the assumption that one rides Intro in order to learn how to ride........uh yeah. Hey, I'll hand over the reins to any of you who would like to show me how it should be done [that said, you have to do it on one of my beasts].

My showing Intro doesn't endanger anyone or anything other than my wallet. So as for..... the following which I realize was directed at someone else.........I've got the big girl panties on and will respond to it directly anyway..

Invest your time and money in a good instructor and don't show up at a show until you are really prepared. If you aren't riding well enough to actually score well then you don't really belong there. Practice some self discipline.

You don't actually want to go tit for tat on this do you? I have a few awards, GOOD scores at levels well above Intro on more than one horse, more than one type of horse and around the various regions I've lived in. I've done so training my own horses without a big fancy dressage arena or all the customary trappings that come with BNTs & big barns. I use the schooling shows to get all my beasts out. I already put 10 miles on each of them a week on the trail but the trail and the show atmosphere are NOT the same. As long as they offer it I think I'll spend my money and time on Intro if I so choose.

TheParisienne
Mar. 26, 2010, 03:55 AM
Well said ExVet.

JetsGlitterNGold
Mar. 26, 2010, 06:08 AM
I'm not a dressage rider and I have, quite a few times, considered showing my young QH mare in the walk/trot tests. That's why I come to this board because I have a slight interest in dressage as a sport, but I know that she won't get much past First Level because of the way she is built. This discussion almost makes me want to not even consider dabbling in dressage if all I would find is people who look at me and think their sport is being dumbed down. All the schooling H/J shows have walk/trot over rails for any age horse. Is that dumbing down jumping or just offering a class for people AND their horses to gain some confidence? If people would look down on me for showing Intro, then you probably won't find me there. I'll find a backwoods show arena where they ask for walk, trot, and wait for it, favorite gait (gasp)! You can choose whether you are ready to canter or if you want to stay trotting or you can even drop down to a walk. Imagine that? And to add, classes are $3, the show ring is across the street from the regularly used train tracks, and the barrel racing at the end of the night is the best part. All your GP horses would be accepted there and you'd probably make some pretty good friends. But some of you are too good for that right?

Dressage+Jumping
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:25 AM
No, the dumbing down of dressage is allowing posting trot at First Level and having those ridiculous USDF walk/trot tests. There is nothing dumb about riding FEI in a snaffle.

haha one can rise the trot to 2nd level in the UK and I have seen many professionals do this on young horses...

blackhorse6
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:29 AM
Well, there are tons of places to go ride your horse and actually learn to ride besides a crowded show atmosphere.

Trail riding one to three hours a day six days a week for several years would be a much better foundation than a walk trot dressage test.

Invest your time and money in a good instructor and don't show up at a show until you are really prepared. If you aren't riding well enough to actually score well then you don't really belong there. Practice some self discipline.

Good Grief:confused: Dressage is training.. Not all of us show for love of ribbons and a score of 80! Guess what? Some people have show nerves..They may never go away but at least showing at a very low level class like intro may be the first be step. :mad:

eponacelt
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:39 AM
<applause for exvet>

I showed Intro last year. I'm a competent rider, but had some fear issues - both mine and my youngsters - at shows. Intro at some schooling shows were a perfectly good way to help overcome that and move forward. We both needed the experience, and riding Intro gave us that in a confidence building way. And for the record, we were schooling 1st at home...

If people want to pay for it, then let them do it for their own reasons and you can go on not showing in it.

dwblover
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:51 AM
Great post exvet!

fargonefarm
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:56 AM
I will probably get flamed by some of the DQ's here but what the hell, it's cold in Michigan today and I have the chills so here goes:

This season I will be taking quite a few of my young students to Dressage - their first shows - and they will be doing walk/trot. These classes are great because it affords me the opportunity to introduce these youngin's to the wonderful discipline of Dressage from an early age. If someone were to come up to me and tell me that if they can't canter yet then they don't belong there and/or are dangerous because of it then that person is going to have a this trainer bring down a whole lotta whoop ass on them.
Do you people get that by running around with these holier-than-thou snooty attitudes you're not welcoming anyone to this sport and you are instead creating a sense of alienation?
Do you want people to learn about the sport and feel welcomed and educate themselves and their horses or do you care more about a wee one on Poopsie the Pony bringing shame on your otherwise pristine sport? I mean seriously. SERIOUSLY people.
And for what it's worth - I am a pro and I have brought along PLENTY of young horses and GASP - I have entered the walk/trot classes from time to time. Not because my horses was dangerou in the canter - if they were they wouldn't be there. It's because I was mostly there to expose them to the environment of a show and it was a low-stress way to get them into the ring.

Egads. God forbid green riders learn about the sport and have a fun, relaxing time of it. Nooooo!

HighFlyinBey++
Mar. 26, 2010, 08:01 AM
This discussion almost makes me want to not even consider dabbling in dressage if all I would find is people who look at me and think their sport is being dumbed down.

I had the same thought, then I decided it would be MUCH more fun to show up on my Half-Ayrab and have a blast doing what makes US happy and comfortable. I'd be thrilled to ruin a snobby, elitist DQ's day by smiling and thanking her for any insults she threw my way, "I'll give your comments all the time and thought they merit."


Not intending to sound rude, but because dressage is about the training of the HORSE, not the training of the rider.

I'll remember this the next time y'alls start ripping apart someone for riding like a sack of potatoes on Saint Schoolie.

I'd like to stay around and watch things implode but I do have a job (and it's much too early to hit the liquor cabinet.) Y'alls have a wonderful day! :cool:

mg
Mar. 26, 2010, 08:16 AM
More than just building rider and horse confidence, I view shows as a good way to get more "objective" feedback and a different way to evaluate how I'm coming along in my riding and my horse's training. Dressage is a scale...horses start out in more relaxed outlines and more basic things are asked of them and focused on. I see shows as a good "check-up" to see if you're doing things correctly. Yes, I realize many "incorrect" rides do well, but in general, trying to keep an optimistic outlook, this is my take on things. Perhaps these lower levels should be reserved for smaller shows. I have to admit, the idea of things like national champions in things like walk/trot or, in hunter-jumpers, leadline really do baffle me. But I don't think receiving evaluation from a judge at these levels should be entirely eliminated.

I also don't understand how riding GP in a snaffle is "dumbing down" the sport. I'm always impressed to see horses performing at that level in more simple equipment. Honestly, I think it defines the entire purpose of dressage.

suzy
Mar. 26, 2010, 08:17 AM
Well, there are tons of places to go ride your horse and actually learn to ride besides a crowded show atmosphere.


True but the only way to learn to ride in competition is by riding in competition. Anyone who has competed for any length of time will tell you that it takes a significant amount of time and in-the-show ring experience to develop good showmanship skills. It doesn't matter how beautifully a person rides at home, they are still riding in a veritable vacuum.

carolprudm
Mar. 26, 2010, 08:30 AM
For those of us with budget constraints, Intro classes are also less expensive, especially if they are available at a schooling show rather than recognized.

We are very lucky here in central VA to have a wide choice of schooling shows. That's not the case every where

I'm hoping to show Sophie this year. Except for the IDHS(NA) show last fall this will be my first show in about 25 years. And Sophie and I will be on our own. I will be the one to clean the tack and bathe and braid the big gray horsie, and load and drive the trailer. When I get to the show I'll be the one to clean her off again and tack her up, while trying not to transfer to much dirt onto me.

After all that I NEED an easy test the first few times

oldernewbie
Mar. 26, 2010, 08:56 AM
I hate that my first post is going to be a rant, but oh well, here goes.

I've ridden all my life, including competing in competitive trail riding. Gotten back into horses, have a young Arab who's got a great mind for dressage. I've never done it before, am taking lessons from a good trainer. Was thrilled that shows offer walk trot so I can take said young Arab in a class and he and I can fumble through it a few times without feeling really awkward. As a few others have said so well here, walk trot serves an important role for many reasons.

And I'll ride in it for one other reason - I'm almost 58 years old, am lucky to have my health and be able to ride - but there's no doubt that my riding clock is ticking. If I take your advice and wait until Mr Arab and I are perfect, I MIGHT NOT GET THERE! At least with riding Intro this summer, if I have to quit riding for some reason, I'll at least know that I rode in a dressage test and satisfied, in some way, one of my long standing dreams. Morbid, but true.

Sheesh, I thought Arab people were snobby....

hoopoe
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:28 AM
Quote:
Not intending to sound rude, but because dressage is about the training of the HORSE, not the training of the rider.
I'll remember this the next time y'alls start ripping apart someone for riding like a sack of potatoes on Saint Schoolie.



or discussing the rider qualification tests

What a bunch of self rightous twaddle. Intro has its place and is a valuable tool for teaching riders and horses how to go to shows.

attitudes like that along with the rules and restrictions trying to be put in place are turning people off showing rated.

If a show runs in an area where they cannot sell all the time alloted slots for tests training thru GP then why not have Intro tests. Early in the season a trainer might appreciate the opportunity to bring a young horse to a show so it can learn how to go to a show.

Gry2Yng
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:50 AM
Well, there are tons of places to go ride your horse and actually learn to ride besides a crowded show atmosphere.



Yes, but the only place to learn to ride in a crowded show atmosphere is at a crowded show. A competent rider or a well trained horse can completely lose their cookies at their first show. Schooling shows are not available to everyone and if you are taking other horses to a recognized show it is nice to take the greenies along as well. Why does someone riding an intro test offend so greatly?

Sometimes, it is safer to take a green horse or rider in a w/t intro class, even if they ARE confirmed at the canter for their first show experience. No, they don't have to be at recognized shows. I take mine to a schooling show and do intro. If they decide they want to rubber neck or the green rider loses her brain nothing gets too out of control. I don't have a dressage ring, schooling the night before is the first time a green horse sees a real ring. For me, some schooling has to occur at shows. My horses also jump. Some rings look like caveletti to them.

EVERYONE that has show experience had to go to their first show. Now as far as the PP stating that her intro test was the highest score of the day. Well, duh!

suzy
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:50 AM
Sheesh, I thought Arab people were snobby....

Try not to let the one or two naysayers get you down. As you can see, the majority of people posting about the walk-trot tests are clearly in favor of them. I think these tests serve a number of valid purposes as already well stated in other posts. Further, they are usually the biggest classes at the local schooling shows in my area, which is very good for our club.

Gry2Yng
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:55 AM
I hate that my first post is going to be a rant, but oh well, here goes.

I've ridden all my life, including competing in competitive trail riding. Gotten back into horses, have a young Arab who's got a great mind for dressage. I've never done it before, am taking lessons from a good trainer. Was thrilled that shows offer walk trot so I can take said young Arab in a class and he and I can fumble through it a few times without feeling really awkward. As a few others have said so well here, walk trot serves an important role for many reasons.

And I'll ride in it for one other reason - I'm almost 58 years old, am lucky to have my health and be able to ride - but there's no doubt that my riding clock is ticking. If I take your advice and wait until Mr Arab and I are perfect, I MIGHT NOT GET THERE! At least with riding Intro this summer, if I have to quit riding for some reason, I'll at least know that I rode in a dressage test and satisfied, in some way, one of my long standing dreams. Morbid, but true.

Sheesh, I thought Arab people were snobby....

You go girl! We're not all snotty.

dutchmike
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:56 AM
Maybe we should introduce a halt test aswell as many people can't halt their horses;)

ponyjumper4
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:58 AM
At 4 years old, they should be fully capable of showing training level. I'm sorry, but if you aren't comfortable with your horse at all 3 gaits in a show environment, you probably shouldn't be there. Not only are you a danger to yourself, but you're a danger to others.

What a load of crap.

suzy
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:58 AM
You go girl! We're not all snotty.

That's right. And we have sleeves and know how to use them. ;)

tigrrlily04
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:59 AM
Totally agree that intro tests are important for horse/rider confidence and experience for a number of reasons. For those of us who do not have a dressage arena to practice in at home, it's a good way for both horse and rider to get a feel for the ring doing a nice relaxed test. Whether Intro tests should be offered at recognized shows or not is a different question. My area offers a lot of unrecognized schooling shows to get in some practice before moving on to the recognized shows (and for that reason I'd never pay the money to enter intro at a recognized show), but I realize that not every part of the country is like that.


My little "dumbed down" Intro tests ended up being the highest scores of the day.
One thing that I think should be changed though is including intro scores in the pool for the high score award. (mypaintwattie - not trying to undermine your efforts by any means, I hope you don't take offense, just offering up a perspective!). Intro is judged very lax, and for good reason since it is really meant to be an "intro" to dressage and encourage the horse/rider. As long as the horse is moving nicely forward, you can still get a decent score with egg shaped circles and the horse not fully accepting the bridle, as long as it looks like a pleasant picture. It is very frustrating when I (or anyone) puts in a solid high 60s 1st level test and gets ousted by the low 70s score of an intro test. I know the analogy could be made to the case when a training level test wins the high score over a 2nd level test, but if nothing else you are demonstrating the same gates at those two levels.

oldernewbie
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:12 AM
You go girl! We're not all snotty.

I know that! :cool: and I'm glad you all aren't. I have really enjoyed the people at my barn (almost all dressage folks) and they've been very accepting of my boy. His tail carriage causes some comments, but viva la difference, I say.

Nothing more dangerous than an experienced woman with nothing to lose and no one to please!!! :lol:

Gry2Yng
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:12 AM
Invest your time and money in a good instructor and don't show up at a show until you are really prepared. If you aren't riding well enough to actually score well then you don't really belong there. Practice some self discipline.

Guess you never had a case of nerves that turned your at home 75% into an at the show 59%. Good gracious, I didn't know there were people that were born with the ability to get a good score at their very first show.

Showing is FUN for some people. They just want to spend time with their friends and their horses and see if they improve year over year. They don't go home a puddle of tears if they don't do well. They go back to the barn and have cocktails and snacks with their friends and laugh about how the nasty DQ with the double bridle cut them off in the warm up and then the dumb ***** went in the ring and excused herself when she blew the flying change because the announcer started speaking RIGHT as she was going across the diagonal. And since they are sitting on the back side of her stall, they can hear her complain about it for the rest of the show. And can you believe their was a puddle RIGHT AT X!


Nothing more dangerous than an experienced woman with nothing to lose and no one to please!!! I like that. Let us know how it goes.

suzy
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:28 AM
Tigrlily, I think a solution might be to score the intro tests correctly rather than inflating the scores. After all, it does the rider no favor to give them an 8 for something that really deserves a 5. The rider ends up with an unrealistic picture of his/her performance and will experience “score shock” when moving up the levels. ;) Instead of inflating the scores, the judge can offer encouragement in the form of positive comments or suggestions on one or two areas on which the rider should focus. At the lower levels, I think that constructive and encouraging comments are of much greater value than inflated scores.

Perhaps a high score award could be offered at intro level. If my memory is right, our club offers the following high score awards: Intro level (junior and senior), Training to First Level (Junior, Senior, Novice), and Second Level and above (Junior, Senior). This addresses the awards problem you mentioned, which I think *is* a legitimate concern.

Gloria
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:36 AM
The snaffle at FEI is the continuation of the dumbing down of dressage in this country. Europe is likely laughing at us over this. Absolutely no reason for that kind of rule change.

Dumging down? You go try to ride a FEI test in a snaffle and see whether it's dumbing UP or dumbing down.

tm
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:41 AM
This discussion almost makes me want to not even consider dabbling in dressage if all I would find is people who look at me and think their sport is being dumbed down.

You are more likely to find this attitude on a bulletin board that you are in real life. There is a lot less self-righteousness from those who are sitting in saddles than from those who are sitting in computer chairs.

canyonoak
Mar. 26, 2010, 11:03 AM
<< You are more likely to find this attitude on a bulletin board that you are in real life. There is a lot less self-righteousness from those who are sitting in saddles than from those who are sitting in computer chairs. >>


Thank you, Terri.

suzier444
Mar. 26, 2010, 11:10 AM
Wow, I usually bite my tongue, but the snobbery about intro classes is infuriating. There is absolutely no valid reason to look down on having intro classes. Even if you omit beginner riders who should apparently be hiding in a hole somewhere (even if they are children) until they can find and afford lunge lessons and a schoolmaster, intro classes are great for older riders for whom cantering isn't in the cards, green horses, young riders who need a very easy introduction to the showing experience, or pairs that need to work through fear issues at a show environment.

Anywya, if dressage is a sport based on steady, long-term, incremental progress, then intro classes support the goals of dressage by giving riders the opportunity to test some of the very-basics and see if they're on the right track, just like every other level. If you can look down on intro, it's just a short step up to looking down on training, and then to first, and then to second...and anyway, shouldn't we be celebrating every milestone with each other, no matter how little? This sport is hard enough as it is!!! (and for those of us who don't make a living at it and don't have olympic medals in our plans, the point no matter what level you're at is to HAVE FUN).

Sandy M
Mar. 26, 2010, 11:10 AM
I don't disagree with that at all. I'm equally against posting at first level as well.

And yes, I agree a horse should be able to do GP in a snaffle, however, they should be equally comfortable doing in a full bridle, as it gives you the extra finesse and subtle touch to make it that much better.



If your horse can't canter comfortable at a show, it probably shouldn't be there. Just MHO, but that's how I feel. I'm completely against intro level being offered in recognized shows.


I prefer RIchard Seedman's comment: "Why do you use a double bridle at FEI levels?" Answer: "Because the rules say so. If you can't do the work in a snaffle, the horse isn't truly trained to that level."

I am consistently amused and irritated by the righteous bitching about Intro. The horses and riders who CAN move on to the higher levels will. What does it matter if someone rides at Intro or Training level forever? They may not be(and probably don't consider themselves) FEI material. So what? Why should anyone else care? Because they sully you, the higher level rider, with their pretense of "doing dressage?"

My youngster, at 4 years old, was quite hot and spooky. Doing Intro a couple of times (not forever!) got him into the ring, in a show atomosphere (OMG! Those things with letters on them! I just KNOW they eat young horses!!!), and exposed him to showing, without getting him over-excited. We WERE cantering at home, and yes, I probably could have risked doing Training Level, but Intro gave me a more controlled way to get him to a ring, into a show, and used to the whole showing "thing." I did schooling shows when possible, but there aren't that many in my area and so, horrors!, I did INTRO AT A RECOGNIZED SHOW. The ODGs are rolling over in their graves, no doubt, according to those who so descry Intro.

lorilu
Mar. 26, 2010, 11:17 AM
Glad to see this board is getting less snobby.

L

JRG
Mar. 26, 2010, 11:43 AM
I will be honest and thought training level was considered the beginning, rather then intro.

I personally don't think it is necessary, but I don't care that they have it. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.

The schooling ring was mentioned, what I have found in most cases with the exception of an overly fractious horse, that either with horse or rider, less confident people try and stay out of the more confident people's way, generally speaking.

I will also add, that I will try and stay away from a fractious horse and give the rider some breathing room, in addition I will give a little more room for the rider that is obviously uncomfortable.

DancingSeahorse
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:28 PM
You are more likely to find this attitude on a bulletin board that you are in real life. There is a lot less self-righteousness from those who are sitting in saddles than from those who are sitting in computer chairs.

LOVE IT!
Thanks!

Sithly
Mar. 26, 2010, 12:43 PM
You are more likely to find this attitude on a bulletin board that you are in real life. There is a lot less self-righteousness from those who are sitting in saddles than from those who are sitting in computer chairs.

Agreed. I showed Intro when my horse was green, and the people were nothing but kind, welcoming, and encouraging. Even the big shots in the double bridles.

ddashaq
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:07 PM
Agreed. I showed Intro when my horse was green, and the people were nothing but kind, welcoming, and encouraging. Even the big shots in the double bridles.

Yes, and the well-known big shots in the doubles tend to be the nicest of them all.

poltroon
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:10 PM
Not intending to sound rude, but because dressage is about the training of the HORSE, not the training of the rider. The rider should already be trained and capable of a fairly decent Independent Seat so that he/she can train the horse humanely.

Well then, we can continue to allow the hunter division to train our riders, and hope they keep throwing us good crumbs. :D

Sithly
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:21 PM
Yes, and the well-known big shots in the doubles tend to be the nicest of them all.

Indeed. Actually, the person I was thinking of when I wrote that was Becky Holder. Funny, she didn't seem the least bit offended by any of the intro level stooges bumbling about. :lol:

mypaintwattie
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:22 PM
Invest your time and money in a good instructor and don't show up at a show until you are really prepared. If you aren't riding well enough to actually score well then you don't really belong there. Practice some self discipline.

You don't actually want to go tit for tat on this do you? I have a few awards, GOOD scores at levels well above Intro on more than one horse, more than one type of horse and around the various regions I've lived in. I've done so training my own horses without a big fancy dressage arena or all the customary trappings that come with BNTs & big barns. I use the schooling shows to get all my beasts out. I already put 10 miles on each of them a week on the trail but the trail and the show atmosphere are NOT the same. As long as they offer it I think I'll spend my money and time on Intro if I so choose.

Well said exvet!!! Just because we are taking a horse in an Intro test does not mean that we are incompetent as a rider it just means that we want to start at the level that will be most beneficial for the horse at the time. Personally, I don't mind showing at schooling shows, it just depends when and where the show is- if it is more convenient I would do a recognized show, and show Intro if need be. FWIW I spent my junior/ young rider years working with very BNT who were not nearly as snobby about the lower levels as I've now seen. I say go for it- if you are a rider who wants to try dressage then try it, even if it is a walk trot test. We should be encouraging new riders not demeaning them for not wanting to canter.

atlatl
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:23 PM
Take a look at the number of entries in the entry and lower level classes and compare to the number of entries in the upper level classes. Then go and thank the lower level entries for giving organizers a chance to break even or maybe get ahead financially. It's a pretty simple business case.

The reality is that the it is the entry level riders that support the sport financially whether it's paying trainers or show fees. It never hurts to be gracious.

bort84
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:27 PM
To be fair, dressurpferd01 said she was against intro being offered at recognized shows, and it would seem most people here are talking about showing intro at schooling shows, so maybe it wasn't quite as snooty of a comment as it seemed.

I really don't care either way, but a similar argument often comes up on the H/J forum about whether cross rail classes or classes with jumps under XX inches should be offered at rated shows.

In other disciplines, many recognized shows (some at the national level) offer walk/trot classes. Granted, many at the regional-national level shows are for junior exhibitors. I know in saddle seat, they offer many championship classes at the national level for riders 10 and under.

Also, I agree that you shouldn't be showing walk/trot if you aren't comfortable with canter at home, but just because you aren't quite ready for a show performance at the canter doesn't mean you and your horse are going to pose a safety risk. It usually just means you don't think your canter is quite up to snuff for someone to judge just yet. Might be because your horse is green, might be because you still get very tense at shows and just don't sit quite right.

Anyway, like I said, I'd be fine with the rule either way (only at schooling shows or allowed at recognized shows as well), but I can see why some wouldn't want an already very long day at a recognized show being made longer or earlier by a very large intro division.

Really no reason for name calling though, haha.

Dressage Art
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by JetsGlitterNGold
This discussion almost makes me want to not even consider dabbling in dressage if all I would find is people who look at me and think their sport is being dumbed down.
I enjoy judging Intro Tests. And at some schooling shows that I judge, I judge 4+ hours of Intro Tests. Horses don't think that their work is "dumbed down" = for some horses it's plenty hard work to go out to a show and do an Intro Test.

I'm also glad that posting is allowed at 1st level now. It's good for horse's backs.

Listen to your horse.

mp
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:50 PM
To be fair, dressurpferd01 said she was against intro being offered at recognized shows, and it would seem most people here are talking about showing intro at schooling shows, so maybe it wasn't quite as snooty of a comment as it seemed.

I don't see why anyone should complain about it. The reason my GMO offers Intro at recog. shows is so they can fill up more time slots, and pull more people into the discipline. More riders = more income = more successful shows. If it offends the delicate sensibilities of some riders, they should just shield their eyes.

Or prepare to fork out more $$$ to show.

paintlady
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:50 PM
I show Intro. I've been riding 25+ years. However, I come from a H/J background. I haven't been doing dressage very long. Plus, I have a 15.2 hh foundation bred QH/Paint mare who is not bred for dressage. She is bred to herd cows, but is kind enough to let her mom ride English. Yes, I can and do know how to canter her. However, due to some hock issues, her canter hasn't been consistent yet for me to feel comfortable cantering her at shows. We're hardly a danger. I know how to control my horse very well thank-you...

I'm really appalled by the elitist attitude shown here. Luckily, I really haven't encountered that with my dressage instructor or at the local and VADA/NoVA shows I've been to. If anything, I've found the dressage community here to be very welcoming and supportive - especially for someone like me with a very non-traditional mount.

paintlady
Mar. 26, 2010, 01:58 PM
One thing that I think should be changed though is including intro scores in the pool for the high score award. (mypaintwattie - not trying to undermine your efforts by any means, I hope you don't take offense, just offering up a perspective!). Intro is judged very lax, and for good reason since it is really meant to be an "intro" to dressage and encourage the horse/rider. As long as the horse is moving nicely forward, you can still get a decent score with egg shaped circles and the horse not fully accepting the bridle, as long as it looks like a pleasant picture. It is very frustrating when I (or anyone) puts in a solid high 60s 1st level test and gets ousted by the low 70s score of an intro test. I know the analogy could be made to the case when a training level test wins the high score over a 2nd level test, but if nothing else you are demonstrating the same gates at those two levels.

Intro. tests are excluded for high score awards at VADA/NoVA shows - both schooling and recognized.

As for judging being lax for Intro. tests - depends on the judge. I rode my best ever Intro. B test at the VADA/NoVA championship show last year. I really felt the test was flawless compared to other shows I had done were I easily scored in the 60s. It was an "r" judge and she scored me in the mid-50's. I was shocked. Oh well...

Sandy M
Mar. 26, 2010, 02:44 PM
Intro. tests are excluded for high score awards at VADA/NoVA shows - both schooling and recognized.

As for judging being lax for Intro. tests - depends on the judge. I rode my best ever Intro. B test at the VADA/NoVA championship show last year. I really felt the test was flawless compared to other shows I had done were I easily scored in the 60s. It was an "r" judge and she scored me in the mid-50's. I was shocked. Oh well...

Hey, the few times I showed Intro, other than the first (a recognized show, but all that was available at the time) where my youngster had hissy fits about the dressage pylons (result: 58%), we scored around 68% most of the time, but NO show I went to for Intro, whether recognized or schooling, offered ANY award but the class ribbons for Intro. At some, to be eligible for "high score" it had to be 1st level or above, at other Training Level or above. Even if a recognized show offers Intro, it is not a recognized level, and therefore Intro scores don't count for high score. If someone's been attending a RECOGNIZED show where they give a high score award for Intro, beating out people at higher levels, I've never heard of it. If it's a SCHOOLING show, and you're scoring really high at 2nd level or above....why are you at a schooling show, eh? (Just kidding. I know there are reasons for showing higher levels at a schooling show, but, y'know, just wondering....).

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 26, 2010, 03:04 PM
Wait, what? You can post the trot at first level now?

Or just during lengthenings?

paintlady
Mar. 26, 2010, 03:08 PM
Hey, the few times I showed Intro, other than the first (a recognized show, but all that was available at the time) where my youngster had hissy fits about the dressage pylons (result: 58%), we scored around 68% most of the time

As I said... depends on the judge. All of the schooling shows I've been to here in NoVA have either "L," "r" or "R" judges. Some judges are tougher than others, but I've never felt scores were "inflated" at the Intro. levels. The scores are based on the requirements of the test. Not that it should matter anyway since VADA/NoVA (and all other local schooling shows I've attended) exclude Intro. from high-score of the show, etc.

It's great that your scoring 68% most of the time. Good job!

Sandy M
Mar. 26, 2010, 03:18 PM
It's great that your scoring 68% most of the time. Good job!

I just mentioned that because there had been the comment about a higher level rider getting "beat out" of a high score award because of the generous scoring at Intro. I never won any high score for Intro scores. The scores were all from R judges though, FWIW.

I wish (wish, wish) it had carried over into Training Level. We're getting around 63% there, sometimes a little higher, sometimes a little lower. He's still switches between lazy and spooky at unexpected moments. (What can I say - he's bipolar - manic Arab/depressive Appy).LOL We only did 4 shows in 2009, then I got laid off - so showing was out of the question (so were lessons), and THEN he tweaked his foreleg, so we're only just now getting it back together: Me employed, him sound! I hope to show Training Level, Tests 3 and 4, then move on to 1st level either late fall or next spring, depending upon how he progresses once we are really back in training.

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 26, 2010, 03:20 PM
I enjoy judging Intro Tests. And at some schooling shows that I judge, I judge 4+ hours of Intro Tests. Horses don't think that their work is "dumbed down" = for some horses it's plenty hard work to go out to a show and do an Intro Test.

I'm also glad that posting is allowed at 1st level now. It's good for horse's backs.

Listen to your horse.


lol

Thats the first thing I said when I saw that, "Well, the judges will be happier I bet." lol many first level riders skip training level and IT SHOWS!


By the time your doing second level movements sitting there probably have been some miles put on your dressage seat.

Dressage Art
Mar. 26, 2010, 03:35 PM
Wait, what? You can post the trot at first level now?

Or just during lengthenings?

From next show season you can post thru the whole 1st level.

Dressage Art
Mar. 26, 2010, 03:43 PM
I am consistently amused and irritated by the righteous bitching about Intro.
What cracks me up WHO is bitching ;) and at what "supper high" level they ride themselves :lol: and how many horses they started, trained up themselves!!!

carolprudm
Mar. 26, 2010, 04:01 PM
I don't see why anyone should complain about it. The reason my GMO offers Intro at recog. shows is so they can fill up more time slots, and pull more people into the discipline. More riders = more income = more successful shows. If it offends the delicate sensibilities of some riders, they should just shield their eyes.

Or prepare to fork out more $$$ to show.
There are parts of the countrythat offer far fewer schooling shows than other areas.

Gry2Yng
Mar. 26, 2010, 04:08 PM
I also think posting first level is a great change. My coming 5 yo (may) came out at first level in January. Totally ready for it. Got comments like "solid basics", etc. Horse scored in 70's. Would have liked to post the trot due to the immaturity of his body. I sat only enough at home to make sure he would be comfortable with it at the show. He did one training and one first level test each day in both Jan and Feb.

I only provide all this detail to prevent getting flamed for something else while supporting the posting at 1st level rule change. Meaning - I have a lovely well trained young horse with no holes and I am not overworking him. Posting would have been nice. Oh, I suppose in further defense of myself, I should say I can sit a medium trot quite well, thank you.

Oh, and the year before, I did two intro tests on him, w/t because I took the other horse second level at the same show. The canter WAS NOT confirmed, but I wanted him to get in the ring and have a positive experience.

nomeolvides
Mar. 26, 2010, 05:16 PM
The snaffle at FEI is the continuation of the dumbing down of dressage in this country. Europe is likely laughing at us over this. Absolutely no reason for that kind of rule change.
I seriously doubt that Europe would be laughing at you over that...

I've never seen such obsession with equipment as these forums!

Velvet
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:02 PM
6. Only those bits listed with Figure 1 are allowed. At any level of competition, a cavesson noseband may never be so tightly fixed that it causes severe irritation to the skin and must be adjusted to allow at least two fingers under the noseband on the side of the face under the
cheekbone
might want to re-read that Velvet

they are talking about tightness not distance from the cheekbone. The words are clear to me, the illustration backs it up

shows where the judgement about degree of tightness is to be made, you check tightness at the side of the face under the cheekbones ( not on the underside of jaw)

Okay, you're right. I am going to have to claim exhaustion as an excuse. (I hate the time change and just haven't caught up on my lost one hour of sleep. Instead it keeps growing to a larger deficit with my inability to adjust. ;) )

Or should I just do an Emily Latella? "Never mind..." :D

dressurpferd01
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:10 PM
It seems I need to clarify some of my opinions. I have no problem with people showing intro, did not mean to come off as condescending. However, I do not think intro should be offered at recognized shows. Actually, down here, our intro classes are quite small. Training on the other hand are huge. First big show of the season last year had almost 20 riders, about 75% of them open riders.

As to the snaffle at FEI. I just don't see the point of changing the rule. Yes, all FEI horses should be able to all the FEI movements, etc in the snaffle. I school the PSG horse I ride in a snaffle regularly, much moreso than in the double. But for a show, I don't see why they need to allow the snaffle.

Again, sorry if I came off as condescending or rude to anyone.

dressurpferd01
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:11 PM
What cracks me up WHO is bitching ;) and at what "supper high" level they ride themselves :lol: and how many horses they started, trained up themselves!!!

I hope this wasn't directed at me, I'm exactly a braggart on here.

Velvet
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:12 PM
I prefer RIchard Seedman's comment: "Why do you use a double bridle at FEI levels?" Answer: "Because the rules say so. If you can't do the work in a snaffle, the horse isn't truly trained to that level."


Amen to that, Sandy M! BTW, how did my original topic get lost on rule changes with the USEF and turn into why we should or shouldn't have Intro tests? Let alone who should be allowed in the show ring? :confused:

Velvet
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:13 PM
As to the snaffle at FEI. I just don't see the point of changing the rule. Yes, all FEI horses should be able to all the FEI movements, etc in the snaffle. I school the PSG horse I ride in a snaffle regularly, much moreso than in the double. But for a show, I don't see why they need to allow the snaffle.



Um, well, it's only for national shows. Go do a CDI and you won't have to worry. Everyone there will be in a double.

Velvet
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:16 PM
As I said... depends on the judge. All of the schooling shows I've been to here in NoVA have either "L," "r" or "R" judges. Some judges are tougher than others, but I've never felt scores were "inflated" at the Intro. levels. The scores are based on the requirements of the test. Not that it should matter anyway since VADA/NoVA (and all other local schooling shows I've attended) exclude Intro. from high-score of the show, etc.

It's great that your scoring 68% most of the time. Good job!

Seriously, Intro IS NOT rocket science. A horse that does well should be scoring in the 80s. It usually IS stingy judges that cause low scores for Intro. They just don't seem to get it and read the directives.

(I'm not talking about Santa Claus judges who throw high scores at everyone at every level, whether or not they've earned them.)

Sandy M
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:41 PM
Seriously, Intro IS NOT rocket science. A horse that does well should be scoring in the 80s. It usually IS stingy judges that cause low scores for Intro. They just don't seem to get it and read the directives.

(I'm not talking about Santa Claus judges who throw high scores at everyone at every level, whether or not they've earned them.)

You're very right. My very first show at Intro after the "dressage pylons are horse eating monsters" one (which was judged by Jeff Moore, and he HAD to give 4s for a horse leaping sideways from E to X when it was supposed to be doing a circle) was a notably stingy judge (and I'm not the only one saying THAT). I was surprised that I received "only" a 63% from him/her, when my retired, now deceased, horse, who was a super-obedient but flat, hunter-type mover (who eventually reached 2nd, schooled 3rd level), got 72% and 71% on his first two "Intro" tests at a recognized show many years ago. My new horse is a MUCH better mover, so when he behaved well (no multiple yee-hahs during the test like the first time), I had figured he'd beat old Erik's scores hollow. Nope. Ah well. I figure Intro is for arena/training/learn to show time - for horse or rider, depending on who needs it most, so the score is somewhat irrelevant. When he got 67% and 68% on his next two Intro tests, I felt a bit better, though. *G* I've only seen 80% at Intro given to almost Salinero-type movers, though (not that there are a lot of those LOL).-

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:41 PM
Seriously, Intro IS NOT rocket science. A horse that does well should be scoring in the 80s. It usually IS stingy judges that cause low scores for Intro. They just don't seem to get it and read the directives.

(I'm not talking about Santa Claus judges who throw high scores at everyone at every level, whether or not they've earned them.)



Ive used intro a few times to get a horse in the ring before my test. The few arenas I know are set up crazily and such I always put my more looky horses in intro.

Ive had the oddest comments on a mare that was lovely. Like needs more round? And not on the bit? HUH, and then same day same judge a higher score in my actual test???

The horse just plodded around in intro but what exactly did they want to see? lol The same frame I used later in the day?

mbm
Mar. 26, 2010, 07:57 PM
i DO think we need to have a base where everyone feels welcome, where horses and riders can do reasonably well if they have some good basics etc. 30 years the "introductory" level for dressage was 1st level (hence the number "1") .... then they added training level to bring in the hunter riders (shows needed money), now it is intro. what will it be in 10 years?

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 26, 2010, 08:08 PM
i DO think we need to have a base where everyone feels welcome, where horses and riders can do reasonably well if they have some good basics etc. 30 years the "introductory" level for dressage was 1st level (hence the number "1") .... then they added training level to bring in the hunter riders (shows needed money), now it is intro. what will it be in 10 years?

Halter classes :lol::lol::lol:

dressurpferd01
Mar. 26, 2010, 08:22 PM
i DO think we need to have a base where everyone feels welcome, where horses and riders can do reasonably well if they have some good basics etc. 30 years the "introductory" level for dressage was 1st level (hence the number "1") .... then they added training level to bring in the hunter riders (shows needed money), now it is intro. what will it be in 10 years?

AA leadline?


::ducks and runs::

Just kidding folks, that was a joke...:D

HenryisBlaisin'
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:16 PM
Here's my take on Intro, which right now I'm showing. I firmly believe that if you are schooling a level solidly (as in would score at least 60%) at home, you show one level down. For me, that means if I'm schooling training level at such a level that it would receive a 60%, I show intro. I'm just starting to school 1st, which is probably as high as my 14.3hh downhill QH who was a cow pony (a real one on a ranch) for several years will be able to go in the show ring. When I'm schooling 1st solidly and my trainer sees 60% there, I will show training level. To show first, I may not be schooling 2nd at 60% quality, but will be schooling the movements before I move to that level. Showing a level down may be an old-fashioned philosophy, but it's one I believe in. So right now, I'm showing intro.

Ghazzu
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:23 PM
"Invest your time and money in a good instructor and don't show up at a show until you are really prepared. If you aren't riding well enough to actually score well then you don't really belong there. Practice some self discipline"

I'll do that if you'll go pound sand...what a truckload of sanctified snottery.

You people make the hunter princesses look like redneck party girls.

oldenmare
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:52 PM
Strictly from my perspective as a show manager (both recognized and schooling) for many years now:

The Intro and Training level riders PAY for the show. Both at schooling AND recognized levels.

Heck - the FEI riders are usually more trouble to schedule in and don't fill the classes nearly as well. :sadsmile:

The elitist attitude, however, is generally from those who talk a good ride. ;) I know - I get to watch most of the rides!!!!!:lol:

Personally - your reasons for showing at whatever level are YOUR business and no one else's. Some people will talk regardless. Forget them - do what makes you happy and what you are comfortable doing.

Life is too short for stupid nonsense.

SillyHorse
Mar. 26, 2010, 09:55 PM
i DO think we need to have a base where everyone feels welcome, where horses and riders can do reasonably well if they have some good basics etc. 30 years the "introductory" level for dressage was 1st level (hence the number "1") .... then they added training level to bring in the hunter riders (shows needed money), now it is intro. what will it be in 10 years?
Forget 10 years -- it's happening now. Our schooling show people added a lead line class last year. Now, THAT'S dressage.

lorilu
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:11 PM
Leadline for little kids might be a way to grow the sport. Right now the only "in" little ones have is leadline in H/J shows or western shows. Guess where most of them wind up showing as they grow? Not in the dressage arena!

L

SillyHorse
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:15 PM
The reason most kids wind up in the hunter and western rings is that it's FUN. Most kids do not find dressage to be fun. Heck, most adults don't find dressage to be fun. :lol:

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:21 PM
Children?

Having fun?

How will dressage every recover from this :) LOL

Gloria
Mar. 26, 2010, 10:53 PM
The reason most kids wind up in the hunter and western rings is that it's FUN. Most kids do not find dressage to be fun. Heck, most adults don't find dressage to be fun. :lol:


The reason kids find those hunter and western fun is because people involved make them fun for the kids, not because those disciplines are funner. For one, I cannot imagine loping a horse at a speed lower than I can walk backward any fun for god's sake.:eek:

Velvet
Mar. 26, 2010, 11:04 PM
Um, and here I thought we were talking about extremes and the point was lead line for ADULTS as the next step. :eek:

Hampton Bay
Mar. 26, 2010, 11:05 PM
I'm still torn over posting at first level. Part of me wants to just tell people who cannot sit the trot to learn to do it before showing first level. I've seen some pretty awful first level rides by people who THOUGHT they could sit, but really just bounced around and perched in the saddle, and the leg yield ended up being the horse going not at all sideways, just the neck turned sideways so the rider thought everything was great. It makes me wonder how many of those types we will now get at second, and then when they allow posting at second, how many we will get at third....

But I very much do plan to take my green-bean Arab to some intro classes at the local schooling shows. I would never spend the money to show intro at a recognized show, but if someone want to do that, more power to them. I just personally find it a waste of money.

I do wish they would let you post the mediums at second though. My mare's are hard to sit if she's tense, which tends to happen rather randomly. I can do it, but she would probably get a better medium if she wasn't having to deal with bouncing me out of the saddle.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 27, 2010, 01:01 AM
Wait. So now you can post at First Level? All four tests? Man, am I out of the loop!

BaroquePony
Mar. 27, 2010, 01:16 AM
Next thing you know you'll be able to ride two-point in your canter .... yeehaw :lol:

ESG
Mar. 27, 2010, 01:29 AM
I think W/T tests are appropriate for schooling shows, but not recognized shows. Every schooling show I've ever been to is more than crowded enough to give a young/green horse or rider plenty of horse show exposure. And you don't see adults showing walk/trot at recognized H/J shows, or breed shows - why dressage? :confused:

And the posting at 1st level? All through 1st level? Come on! It's part of the progression of training through the levels, to be able to sit your horse, and have the horse be comfortable with it. Jeez, next they'll take the leg yields out of 1st level, and it will be Training level, except with smaller circles and lengthenings. Oy. :rolleyes:

exvet
Mar. 27, 2010, 02:30 AM
Next thing you know you'll be able to ride two-point in your canter ....

Do you know how many dressage riders can't do that? Especially maintain two point without falling back down onto the back or keeping themselves up by hanging in their horse's mouth? You may think it's easier...........and given my background I could do two point all day but you might be amazed at just how "tough" this would be for some. Now would it provide an effective seat and show progress in dressage training? Of course not; so, I do get your point. I think those of us who are not so happy with the changes being made to the tests are grimacing at what we're going to really be seeing - while we may not see bouncing arses, daylight where we shouldn't see it, and quite so many cranked/taught curbs I'm anxious and not so anxious to see in four years where/what will be showing at second level. I believe you need to give ample opportunity to get horses out there and allow people as well as horses to break into the show scene gradually, 'tis the "beauty" of the schooling show especially. I don't think we need to put off learning how to ride or ride effectively. I think intro provides many opportunities (though I elect not to spend the kind of money one would have to in order to show Intro at recognized shows I can see if that's your only option because there are no schooling shows how and why someone would do it) BUT and I have a big BUT :winkgrin: on this.............I think the effort to save the horse may unfortunately just give more reason not to learn how to ride. So while I disagree with you on the standpoint of the merits of Intro, I too am concerned with where dressage is headed. On another note those of you who make fun of what is next to come, eg. lead line. You know if more of us would spend our time at the end of the line, these changes might not have been necessary or even dreamed up. :eek::yes::no:

meupatdoes
Mar. 27, 2010, 07:29 AM
Next thing you know you'll be able to ride two-point in your canter ....

Do you know how many dressage riders can't do that? Especially maintain two point without falling back down onto the back or keeping themselves up by hanging in their horse's mouth? You may think it's easier...........and given my background I could do two point all day but you might be amazed at just how "tough" this would be for some. Now would it provide an effective seat and show progress in dressage training?

I know, right? Some of these dressage queens should TRY to ride a horse in two point, not for ten strides but for ten minutes and be able to put in a full ride inclusive of lead changes and counter canter.
The only place I disagree with you exvet is that I feel the ability to do so DOES help with your seat- nothing solidifies the leg position like holding a twopoint.

(The other thing I find hilarious as someone coming from the hunters is how many dressage riders think SITTING the trot and canter without stirrups is some kind of athletic event. "Oh I develop my seat by dropping my stirrups twice a week." Yes, and then you ...SIT the whole time. Somebody explain to me how it makes any difference whatsoever whether you have stirrups when you are sitting. To me coming from the hunters that has always been a total non-issue, though it is marginally more difficult with stirrups because then you have to keep the stirrups on your feet. Try posting and two pointing for an entire flat lesson with your stirrups crossed in front of the saddle, EVERY RIDE, like a junior equitation kid and then explain to us all again about your no-stirrup work and how the hunter people have a poor foundation. But what do I know, I'm one of those hunter idiots they made the Training Level division for.)


And yes, at a hunter show, I saw an adult lead line class. It was mainly for the volunteers of the show, some of whom weren't riders. So they had 15 minutes of the horse show where they got to borrow a horse and get led around the ring and be "judged." They had a great time and nobody begrudged them it.
I could have ridden up on my nice steed to somebody who was clearly delighted and said, "You know, you shouldn't even BE HERE until you can effing RIDE, wtf are y'all taking up 15 minutes of the show for?" but how much of a jack@ss would that have made me?

That is the same level of jack@ss as posting so ridiculously snobbishly here on COTH. All you are doing is trying to bully people who ride worse than you into staying home. Would you guys really have the balls to bully people OUT LOUD like this from the rail if you saw this class going? It is so UNSPORTSMANLY.

When will people participate in this sport as SPORTSMEN? Since when is all of of this horribly unsportsmanlike behavior tolerated, and even encouraged among members here?

You could look at the lower level riders with warmth in your hearts and think "Good for them!"
Instead you choose to have small hearts and bully them from the internet.

Y'all rock.

JMurray
Mar. 27, 2010, 08:01 AM
No, the dumbing down of dressage is allowing posting trot at First Level and having those ridiculous USDF walk/trot tests. There is nothing dumb about riding FEI in a snaffle.

USDF does not call these walk/trot tests. They are called USDF Tests Introductory Level Tests A and B.

What's dumb about that?

blackhorse6
Mar. 27, 2010, 08:12 AM
And that is just what they are, "an introduction" in to dressage...For what could be the horse, rider or both! ;)

dutchmike
Mar. 27, 2010, 08:48 AM
Um, and here I thought we were talking about extremes and the point was lead line for ADULTS as the next step. :eek:

Wouldn't suprise me at all. In what other countries do you see intro in A rated Federated Shows or in what other country do you see jumpers at 2'6?.

exvet
Mar. 27, 2010, 09:33 AM
Try posting and two pointing for an entire flat lesson with your stirrups crossed in front of the saddle, EVERY RIDE, like a junior equitation kid and then explain to us all again about your no-stirrup work and how the hunter people have a poor foundation. But what do I know, I'm one of those hunter idiots they made the Training Level division for.

I spent many a mile doing the same. Came from a hunter background. What really killed my riding was riding at the track. My $2/day vet salary wasn't enough to cover the bills so I rode for someone, mostly exercising/breezing, and backing the young starts, etc. He liked what I did but it sure did screw up my position.

As for the difference or lack their of between riding without stirrups vs. sitting and using effective aids...............well I had the same opinion as you until I spent a few miles on the lunge line and also took my own horses (sans trainer) up through the levels. There is a difference. Of course I don't think the ability to do so is heaven sent. I think it's just blood, sweat and tears for some and comes more naturally to others.

I think both disciplines require a specific set of skills to do well. Some can cross over between the two effectively while others find it more difficlut to do so. I think you find gifted riders in both and then the not so gifted. I think you find that some of the not so gifted are weekend warriors who don't dedicate enough time to perfecting their own riding while buying "up" in horses to make up for weaknesses and/or inability in their riding/skill set which leads to a whole 'nuther conundrum which is a rider being overhorsed. It happens a lot in dressage. I know it happens in hunter riders because it's how I bartered my way down to Florida and back with my own horse many, many moons ago - catch riding others, working others for them (at the bequest of my trainer) before they flew down and then being yelled at because little Suzie Q didn't do as well as expected 'cause I didn't ride the crap out of the pony.

My concern, though I've been told by those OTOB that I'm being melodramatic, and people will learn how to ride by the time they hit second level is - if you keep putting off putting their feet to the fire in the name of saving the horse when will they learn how to develop an effective seat? I find most people are procratinators (waving hand high in air) and if you don't have to, then all the more reason to put it off until tomorrow especially if it requires more skill, balance, effort, etc to accomplish/master. Now of course I also realize that dressage attracts a lot of perfectionist types too and there are those who don't put things off. However, it's already like pulling teeth to find instructors willing/able to give lunge lessons and those willing to take them. I'm sorry but I do think that developing ones seat in dressage usually requires lunge lessons - just like I thought/think the endless miles without stirrups OR reins going over in and outs, lines etc improved my ability to ride huntseat. Even with all that I know in regards to either discipline I still have far, far to go before I'm considered a good rider.

But just like you said you can basically poo poo my opinions 'cause they can't be of any merit. I was one of those hunter idiots who had the audacity to bring my redneck poor white trash self to the dressage party and STAYED. What's worse is by doing so I've even won a time or two with respectable scores :eek:

SillyHorse
Mar. 27, 2010, 09:36 AM
The reason kids find those hunter and western fun is because people involved make them fun for the kids, not because those disciplines are funner. For one, I cannot imagine loping a horse at a speed lower than I can walk backward any fun for god's sake.:eek:
At least those kids loping that slow horse get to dress up in fun sparkly clothes, instead of looking like little old men on their way to the opera. And the hunter and jumper kids get to jump. Please tell me, what's fun for kids in dressage? :confused: BTW, "funner" is not a real word.

TheParisienne
Mar. 27, 2010, 10:07 AM
I would like to second that it is the Intro/Training people who help pay for the shows. Schooling or recognized.

My new mare could probably go out and show a decent training level test. I've had her for 3.5 weeks now and we have made some progress in getting her to stretch and relax amongst other things. She was a 10 year old DWB show jumper.

But I will want to take her into a few Intro classes to get the feed back that we are *getting* what is asked of us in the Introductory levels. And, like others have said, I will do it in the schooling and recognized shows because who knows what show nerves will do. And I will probably hold her to those classes until we are getting consistent scores at both types of shows because I want her new career in dressage to be correct and fun for the both of us. I look at the comments made by the judges to track the areas we need to go back to. Not relaxed, no rhythm? Time to go back.

I will probably be one of those hacks who goes to a jumping show or tries to event her one day. But I believe dressage is the foundation for all of that. For me, if we are doing well in dressage the rest is just gravy.

Margaret Freeman
Mar. 27, 2010, 10:14 AM
Okay, this has meandered from the opening topic, but since we're on the subject of fun for kids, check out the website for Lendon Gray's Youth Dressage Festival, especially the prize list. We get well over 200 kids for the festival each year, many from quite a long distance.

http://www.youthdressagefestival.com/

You'll need to click the tab on the left for the prize list, but first look at the faces of the child and the pony on the first page. There is serious competition, and serious learning and some really serious fun -- including dressage tests with jumping (prix caprilli) and dressage tests with trail obstacles (where this picture was taken). And, yes, there is a modified leadline test for the really young riders, and before that there is a play group area where they do lots of things with stick horsies.

Lendon makes her own rules for this competition, and some of them are actually harder than at regular shows, such as not allowing readers. The YDF committee actively encourages anyone who would like to borrow from this format to do so and run their own for kids and adults alike. Doing something fun just takes some imagination.

BaroquePony
Mar. 27, 2010, 10:26 AM
and serious learning

Here is the key component that is missing with the dumded down tests.

Gry2Yng
Mar. 27, 2010, 10:45 AM
Most people doing the "dumbed down" tests ARE learning something. You just can't seem to see that there is more to learn about horse showing than just sitting the trot.

For that matter MOST riders will never get to second level. EVER. So while I like the posting trot at first for my youngster, it maybe that Suzy Having Fun never has to learn to sit because she has no ambitions beyond first level but she still enjoys going to dressage shows and paying the fixed costs for the rest of us and providing a living for her trainer (who by the way knows if Suzy took months of lunge line lesson she might never learn to sit the trot) and cheering on her FEI friends who love to spend time with her at the barn and at shows.

For most adults, horses and dressage is an escape from the pressures of life. A way to enjoy themselves. Life is hard enough, why to we have to make fun hard too? For that matter, why do we have to impose your idea of "worthy learning" on the entire sport.

Velvet
Mar. 27, 2010, 10:49 AM
So while I like the posting trot at first for my youngster, it maybe that Suzy Having Fun never has to learn to sit because she has no ambitions beyond first level but she still enjoys going to dressage shows and paying the fixed costs for the rest of us and providing a living for her trainer (who by the way knows if Suzy took months of lunge line lesson she might never learn to sit the trot) and cheering on her FEI friends who love to spend time with her at the barn and at shows.

Would you guys stop picking on poor Suzy already?? Sheesh! Poor woman. She just might not want to come back to this board if you keep it up. :lol:

nomeolvides
Mar. 27, 2010, 11:16 AM
At least those kids loping that slow horse get to dress up in fun sparkly clothes, instead of looking like little old men on their way to the opera. And the hunter and jumper kids get to jump. Please tell me, what's fun for kids in dressage? :confused: BTW, "funner" is not a real word.
Being lucky enough to be riding! Ever since the first time I got on a horse as a child, nearly every ride was fun. Simply for the fact it was riding.

oldernewbie
Mar. 27, 2010, 12:14 PM
Here is the key component that is missing with the dumded down tests.

So learning to bend, maintain contact, ride figures, etc - that is, everything I'm trying to learn to ride an intro test well - is not serious learning? I thought all of these things (and more) were the fundamentals of dressage? And if it's so d--n easy, why is it so hard, even for someone like myself who is a pretty decent rider overall?

And the stuff everyone thinks is so hard, like sitting the trot? Been doing that for years since I've ridden western on all kinds of horses - it's the easiest thing about dressage so far.

Pretty obvious to me that no amount of rational argument will convince some of the folks on this thread that intro is a good thing. But, this cannot and will not deter me from my goals! ;)

MaximumChrome
Mar. 27, 2010, 12:26 PM
Oh my, no wonder people call us Dressage Queens. If lower levels "aren't dressage", then maybe we should just have rated shows at PSG and higher - and let's see how the "real" dressage riders pay for their shows. Meantime, we can have Intro through 4th level (the non-real dressage) at schooling shows only - and I predict the rated shows will all wither away and die.

Thank goodness most real riders (and I mean those who are out on horses, and not here on COTH berating everyone) and most show managers are much more open minded and realize the Intro rider pays just as much in show fees, and in lesson costs, and in supporting our vendors, and in USDF fees as ANYONE ELSE. And reality is, the vast majority of those people who enter shows, who buy from vendors, who take lessons, who buy schoolmasters are Intro through 2nd level riders. We need these riders to sustain the sport. We should embrace them - they are dressage riders, they are just as important as anyone else at the show.

I also think those who look down on "lower level" riders should volunteer to post video on this forum so we can all watch and learn from the experts. Yes, DressedUpFred & Company, this means you. Let's see you "walk the walk".

I knew a trainer with this attitude - her students weren't allowed to show until they could score at least 70% at First Level. She'd point out to them that 70% was only "fairly good", it wasn't even anything to brag about. Most of her students never showed, and many gave up riding, they totally lost their confidence, they learned to dread riding their horses, and the horses were soured by the eternal search for perfection. She was a lovely rider, but a harsh instructor.

Not everyone has to be an FEI rider to be a dressage rider. And for those reading this thread and getting discouraged - go out and meet some real riders, you'll realize the attitude some show here is not the prevailing attitude. Thank goodness.

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 27, 2010, 12:31 PM
The worst sitting Ive seen in my life, was the first level tests.

Everyone wants to get out of the training level hump and start sitting the trot.

I know I did this at first :lol::lol:

But luckily I had a trainer that said um NO, NO, NO, you do POSTING movements first! If you cant do the movement in a post, THEN, you cant do it at a sit.

LOL

If your leg can remain still AND do the movements posting, your actually ahead of the game for sitting in my opinion.

The sitting should be easy by the time your horses back is ready. In fact, it should feel strange posting, like the saddle is sucking you down.

BUT MOST, dont have a clue what that feels like so , slapping (what I call sitting for people who force the sit on a tense rubber back) is what you see :)

The horses suffer, remember that

Alagirl
Mar. 27, 2010, 12:36 PM
Anyone see some the latest rule changes? (The new version of the Rule Book just came out yesterday.)

One rather useless rule appears to be the one for putting a horses cavesson two fingers below the cheek bone. First, in dressage, it's often ONE finger length when using a flash so you don't have it hanging down like a figure eight (which it's NOT supposed to look like). Also, who's fingers will be used?

Honestly, if they were going to make changes about the cavesson it should have been for tightness, not for placement on the horse's face. :rolleyes:

Any other changes bugging you or making you happy? (I do love the fact that at the national level you can now ride all FEI tests, including GP, in a snaffle. :D )


They put that in the rule book?

It's been the 'rule of thumb' - no pun intended - for tacking up for ever for me. And yes, at one time I wondered about the finger size.

I guess you can always drag a toddler out for measurements to get your figure 8 look.

I suppose there is a generally excepted norm average for finger, like for hand.

I really would not like my husband's fingers used as measurement...it would turn the caveson into a drop...:lol:

BaroquePony
Mar. 27, 2010, 12:37 PM
My initial posts were aimed at recognized dressage shows.

I am absolutely NOT in favor of qualifications standards.

My comments were pretty much based out of self-preservation. I do not like being around inexperienced horse people who, quite often, have little or no experience or background in horsemanship to the level of having any decent "horse etiquette".

I am tired of having my horse tied to the trailer and somebody has their kid walking out their hot horse and they walk right by mine, their horse backs up and kicks the crap out of mine, while they stand there looking stupid. Then, when I ask them to NOT bring their horse back around my trailer again, they do exactly what I just asked them not to do. Round two with the kicking. So I go to the Steward and ask them what to do ... they anounce it over the LOUD SPEAKERS .... "would the person with such-and-such a horse stay away from ALL of the trailers .... there is a 20 acre field they can walk in ..." ... and they do it again.

Some of you folks are making a lot of assumptions and you are taking it one step further by making up scenarios of snobbery.

nomeolvides
Mar. 27, 2010, 12:46 PM
BaroquePony, there's always going to be stupid people at any level.

Velvet
Mar. 27, 2010, 12:49 PM
But luckily I had a trainer that said um NO, NO, NO, you do POSTING movements first! If you cant do the movement in a post, THEN, you cant do it at a sit.

Heck, even a passage could be posted, if you wanted to. And lateral work can be posted. So I don't quite agree with this rule of thumb.

(Did everyone catch that? My last comment fits for both this and the original post. Well, fingers, anyway. ;) )

ToN Farm
Mar. 27, 2010, 12:56 PM
Some of you folks are making a lot of assumptions and you are taking it one step further by making up scenarios of snobbery. You've got that right! Some of these people are off on a tangent about things that were never said or even implied.

This started with the OP using the term 'dumbed down' when referencing the permission of a snaffle a USDF FEI. What does 'dumbed down' mean? I looked it up, and it means 'made easier'. In my post, I said I do not think using a snaffle at FEI is dumbing down dressage, because I don't think it is necessarily easier to ride FEI in a snaffle. I added that what I do think is dumbing down dressage started with the Intro tests and now allowing posting at First. Other dumbing down is done with each revision of the tests. Do you all realize that around 1990, the First Level tests had Shoulder-In? I remember this because that test was one used for Training Level eventing.

So....does anyone disagree that incorporation of the Intro tests and posting at First is making dressage easier?

Nobody said it was a bad thing to make dressage showing easier, did they? Great if it's bringing in more money and more people are having fun.

How you feel about the tests will depend on the direction you'd like to see dressage go in this country.

Ghazzu
Mar. 27, 2010, 01:09 PM
Here is the key component that is missing with the dumded down tests.

Are these the same as the dumbed down tests, or is there yet another subset under discussion ? :D

tm
Mar. 27, 2010, 01:29 PM
So....does anyone disagree that incorporation of the Intro tests and posting at First is making dressage easier?


Dumbing down ... from what? The person who is just starting out doesn't think that riding an Intro test at her first show is "dumbing down". To her, it's an accessible goal. She's not hurting me, or anyone else, by showing at a level that she is comfortable with. I'd rather she do that, and have a good experience for both herself and her horse, than show at a level that she can't manage.

Just an FYI: the title of this thread is USEF rule changes. Intro tests are administered by USDF. A small thing, but it means that they are not a USEF "recognized" level.

About posting in First Level. Has anyone thought about the horse? Allowing posting in First Level saves the backs of the saintly horses who are hoping to teach their riders to (eventually) sit. And think about the young horses: if you need to post on a 5 year old who is showing First Level... you'll be able to. Save his back for when he's strong enough for extended periods of sitting..

Do I want people to be able to sit better? Of course! It's a heck of a lot easier for me to get good pictures of someone who is sitting well! :D

As for snaffles in FEI levels: I'd frankly like to see the FEI follow our lead in the future. Use the full bridle if it makes for better communication with your horse; use the snaffle if your horse is more comfortable in it.

After all, it IS all about the horse. Isn't it? :yes:

ToN Farm
Mar. 27, 2010, 01:35 PM
Dumbing down ... from what?
Dumbing down from previous tests. Sheesh, I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to understand. I just wrote a whole post that I thought was clear, but apparently TM and others just are so fixated on trying to support the changes that they miss the point.

mjhco
Mar. 27, 2010, 01:39 PM
Dumbing down ... from what? The person who is just starting out doesn't think that riding an Intro test at her first show is "dumbing down". To her, it's an accessible goal. She's not hurting me, or anyone else, by showing at a level that she is comfortable with. I'd rather she do that, and have a good experience for both herself and her horse, than show at a level that she can't manage.

Just an FYI: the title of this thread is USEF rule changes. Intro tests are administered by USDF. A small thing, but it means that they are not a USEF "recognized" level.

About posting in First Level. Has anyone thought about the horse? Allowing posting in First Level saves the backs of the saintly horses who are hoping to teach their riders to (eventually) sit. And think about the young horses: if you need to post on a 5 year old who is showing First Level... you'll be able to. Save his back for when he's strong enough for extended periods of sitting..

Do I want people to be able to sit better? Of course! It's a heck of a lot easier for me to get good pictures of someone who is sitting well! :D

As for snaffles in FEI levels: I'd frankly like to see the FEI follow our lead in the future. Use the full bridle if it makes for better communication with your horse; use the snaffle if your horse is more comfortable in it.

After all, it IS all about the horse. Isn't it? :yes:

And the choir said "AMEN"

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 27, 2010, 01:52 PM
Heck, even a passage could be posted, if you wanted to. And lateral work can be posted. So I don't quite agree with this rule of thumb.

(Did everyone catch that? My last comment fits for both this and the original post. Well, fingers, anyway. ;) )


Well obviously, but now we see the leg yeild in a posting trot and that makes certain a rider can perform a suppeling movement BEFORE he/she is asked to sit the trot.

There are no movements (lateral) before this test and Id reallly like to see riders doing lateral before sitting..


Dont you?

MaximumChrome
Mar. 27, 2010, 02:38 PM
ToN, you do realize "Dumb down" has negative implications? Kind of like "retarded", the dictionary doesn't provide the negativity associated with those kinds of words. And yes, people posting in this thread did make negative comments about lower levels, especially Intro levels.

Baroque - sorry, but stupidity and dangerous behavior doesn't belong to Intro level riders. Last year, a 3rd level rider led her mare (in heat) on a loose (as in 5 feet of draping rope) line past a stallion several times. Mare stopped right against stallion each time. Another PSG rider tied her horse too loose to trailer, got rope over his neck, pulled back, took off trailer grommet, rider proceeded to RETIE to next grommet, too loose, 5 minutes later, horse pulls back, next grommet gone, so uses brain and reties horse TIGHTER to grommet on other side, horse is already in the pull back mode, pulls out next grommet, etc. I could go on and on with examples of stupid behavior. Don't blame Intro riders for lack of safety, many are converts from other disciplines and know just about basic horsemanship as any other experienced rider.

Don't want bucking in the warm up? I've seen plenty of FEI horses rear, buck, bolt, kick out.

Posting trot rule - takes place with the next set of dressage tests (Dec 2010). Posting is better for the horse. And in other countries (such as the UK) posting is accepted in the "lower" levels. Is posting easier? Sometimes - but if you've ever tried to post passage or half pass, you'll realize it might be easier to sit in some situations. This test change gives riders the choice of doing what is best for their horse - hardly dumbing.

Original post was an incorrect reading of a USEF rule, then went on to ask about other rule changes and people's opinion. The posting option at 1st level brought on the rant against lower level riders, so is it such a tangent?

BaroquePony
Mar. 27, 2010, 03:01 PM
Don't want bucking in the warm up? I've seen plenty of FEI horses rear, buck, bolt, kick out.

Are they posting or sitting?

arnika
Mar. 27, 2010, 03:13 PM
mjhco; and I'll give you a Hallelujah!


Maybe we should introduce a halt test aswell as many people can't halt their horses;)

dutchmike, I haven't read all the posts but of the three pages I did, yours is the definitely the funniest! And I completely agree. :D

Sandy M
Mar. 27, 2010, 06:31 PM
I think W/T tests are appropriate for schooling shows, but not recognized shows. Every schooling show I've ever been to is more than crowded enough to give a young/green horse or rider plenty of horse show exposure. And you don't see adults showing walk/trot at recognized H/J shows, or breed shows - why dressage? :confused:




Okay. I assume, then, that YOU are going to move to my area and put on all these schooling shows where Intro is "permitted" without bruising the feelings of the higher level folks? While I don't need Intro now, last year when I wanted to show Intro, I would have had to pay quite a high fee to get a ride at a schooling one day horse trial - i.e., pay the full entry fee but only ride the dressage test, or go to perhaps 3 other schooling shows, each at the same location (so not "getting to see new arenas, etc."). I only showed in 4 shows last year, anyway, because I got laid off and the first thing to go was shows and lessons, but I needed to get exposure for my horse, and three of the four shows I did go to - each at a different location - were, oh horror!, RECOGNIZED, where I rode Intro, and at the last one, Training Test 2, and I appreciate the opportunity they gave me by not excluding the Intro tests.

P.S. Dutchmike - those people with trouble halting might want to breed a little Appy into their horses. My hot, half-Arab youngster, who can yee-hah with the best of them (all 16.2 h .h. of him), still has the built-in "Whoa is my favorite gait" of the true Appaloosa.

Dressage Art
Mar. 27, 2010, 06:47 PM
Dressage tests were made easier when "airs above the ground" such as capriole, courbette, mezair, croupade, levade was not included in GP. They were again made easier when tests below FEI levels were introduced!

So for those of you who don't want to see "easier" dressage, I hope that you are schooling your horses to correctly enter your pesade and levade from your very rythmical piaffe + you start showing from PSG level and up = just like in the old times with unchanged High School Of Dressage ;)

Dressage Art
Mar. 27, 2010, 07:00 PM
Some of you folks are making a lot of assumptions and you are taking it one step further by making up scenarios of snobbery.

Really? Let me refresh your memory on what you said a couple of pages back. I do find it quite appalling and snobbish.


Well, there are tons of places to go ride your horse and actually learn to ride besides a crowded show atmosphere.

Trail riding one to three hours a day six days a week for several years would be a much better foundation than a walk trot dressage test.

Invest your time and money in a good instructor and don't show up at a show until you are really prepared. If you aren't riding well enough to actually score well then you don't really belong there. Practice some self discipline.
I don't think that waters need to part just b/c you enter the show grounds!

SillyHorse
Mar. 27, 2010, 07:04 PM
Okay, this has meandered from the opening topic, but since we're on the subject of fun for kids, check out the website for Lendon Gray's Youth Dressage Festival, especially the prize list. We get well over 200 kids for the festival each year, many from quite a long distance.

http://www.youthdressagefestival.com/

You'll need to click the tab on the left for the prize list, but first look at the faces of the child and the pony on the first page. There is serious competition, and serious learning and some really serious fun -- including dressage tests with jumping (prix caprilli) and dressage tests with trail obstacles (where this picture was taken). And, yes, there is a modified leadline test for the really young riders, and before that there is a play group area where they do lots of things with stick horsies.

Lendon makes her own rules for this competition, and some of them are actually harder than at regular shows, such as not allowing readers. The YDF committee actively encourages anyone who would like to borrow from this format to do so and run their own for kids and adults alike. Doing something fun just takes some imagination.
I'm aware of Lendon's youth festival. It's a terrific thing, but it's one day of fun for a very small number of kids. Do you have any information about whether other peope have done this? Even if they have, it's still ONE day of fun.

I think dressage is fun. It's also hard, exacting riding that requires the kind of concentration and focus that very few kids have. Yes, I know there are kids who can focus and concentrate like that in every discipline. But other disciplines offer fun clothes, exciting contesting, jumping, etc. I don't believe dressage will ever attract a large number of youngsters, no matter how many once-a-year fun days are put on, simply because for most kids, it isn't fun the other 364 days.

lorilu
Mar. 27, 2010, 07:41 PM
And just what kind of fun do you think the lead line western or H/J kids are having the "other " 364 days? Jnping? I doubt it. Barrels or poles? naw. They are walking in the lesson arena, learning to sit properly and steer and look up and smile..... and dreaming of the day they get to trot or - even - canter!

Why can't - why SHOULDN'T we grow our sport in the same way? Hook 'em early. After all, a good seat is a good seat, whether learned in a western saddle, forward seat saddle, or dressage saddle.

Prix caprilli, quadrille, pas de deux - all are fun. Kids love 'em.

And as a teacher, I wish something in kids' lives would encourage concentration and precision.... it just might translate to the classroom...

L

dressurpferd01
Mar. 27, 2010, 08:04 PM
I'm aware of Lendon's youth festival. It's a terrific thing, but it's one day of fun for a very small number of kids. Do you have any information about whether other peope have done this? Even if they have, it's still ONE day of fun.

I think dressage is fun. It's also hard, exacting riding that requires the kind of concentration and focus that very few kids have. Yes, I know there are kids who can focus and concentrate like that in every discipline. But other disciplines offer fun clothes, exciting contesting, jumping, etc. I don't believe dressage will ever attract a large number of youngsters, no matter how many once-a-year fun days are put on, simply because for most kids, it isn't fun the other 364 days.

Ya know, it's interesting. I'm actually seeing more and more kids showing around here. We have quite an active JR/YR group down here, and several of them are extremely talented riders. I always try to make a point of complimenting their rides to encourage them.

ETA: For those calling me out, asking for pics, etc, follow the links below.

Pic 1 (http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae360/dressurpferd01/b_canter.jpg)

Pic 2 (http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae360/dressurpferd01/b_trot_2.jpg)

Pic 3 (http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae360/dressurpferd01/r_trot.jpg)

Pic 4 (http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae360/dressurpferd01/b_trot.jpg)

Pic 5 (http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae360/dressurpferd01/r_canter.jpg)

Pic 6 (http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae360/dressurpferd01/r_trot_2.jpg)

Have at it!

ESG
Mar. 27, 2010, 08:51 PM
Okay. I assume, then, that YOU are going to move to my area and put on all these schooling shows where Intro is "permitted" without bruising the feelings of the higher level folks?

I don't know about "bruising the feelings of the higher level folk", or about the availability of schooling shows in any area of the country except my own. I do know that I expressed an opinion, that adults doing W/T ( or Intro, if you prefer :p) don't belong at a recognized show. I stand by that.



While I don't need Intro now, last year when I wanted to show Intro, I would have had to pay quite a high fee to get a ride at a schooling one day horse trial - i.e., pay the full entry fee but only ride the dressage test, or go to perhaps 3 other schooling shows, each at the same location (so not "getting to see new arenas, etc."). I only showed in 4 shows last year, anyway, because I got laid off and the first thing to go was shows and lessons, but I needed to get exposure for my horse, and three of the four shows I did go to - each at a different location - were, oh horror!, RECOGNIZED, where I rode Intro, and at the last one, Training Test 2, and I appreciate the opportunity they gave me by not excluding the Intro tests.

No offense intended, but I seriously doubt that the opportunity was meant for you, alone. And you did say that you did have an opportunity to go to other schooling shows, so there apparently isn't a paucity of opportunity in your area. Again, it is my opinion that adult W/T tests belong at schooling shows.


P.S. Dutchmike - those people with trouble halting might want to breed a little Appy into their horses. My hot, half-Arab youngster, who can yee-hah with the best of them (all 16.2 h .h. of him), still has the built-in "Whoa is my favorite gait" of the true Appaloosa.

Sounds like most WBs I know. :no:

dressurpferd01
Mar. 27, 2010, 08:59 PM
Really, ESG? The Hano's I ride are all plenty forward, though not excessively so.

mishmash
Mar. 27, 2010, 09:00 PM
Wow, dresurpferd01, you have a really big, and...err...black head. Very odd. I think when I show FEI, it will ruin my day, as I will be totally focused on looking at your lack of facial features and will not be able to concentrate on my levade....

Gloria
Mar. 27, 2010, 09:23 PM
At least those kids loping that slow horse get to dress up in fun sparkly clothes, instead of looking like little old men on their way to the opera. And the hunter and jumper kids get to jump. Please tell me, what's fun for kids in dressage? :confused: BTW, "funner" is not a real word.

Don't you understand that that is soooo boring that they have to make it fun by playing dress up? Again, that is people involved making the efforts to make it fun. Dear, if you don't understand how dressage can be fun for kids (or anybody), why are you here? Dressage is extremely fun if you have good instructors, have friends who are really really good at dressage, who by the way, are mostly very very down to earth. If you don't, hey, I don't know what to tell you. Only that if you had ridden a good dressage horse whose power and brilliance are governed by your thoughts, you would know that it is extremely intoxicating.

Nothing can be fun if folks insist on making dressage like the long procession to the funeral, or to the opera as you said, and have snobby on top of that. Oh by the way, thank you for the correction for the word. I'm VERY VERY humbled and extremely impressed by your knowledge of vocabulary. Will that satisfy your ego?

dressurpferd01
Mar. 27, 2010, 09:36 PM
Wow, dresurpferd01, you have a really big, and...err...black head. Very odd. I think when I show FEI, it will ruin my day, as I will be totally focused on looking at your lack of facial features and will not be able to concentrate on my levade....

LOL! I knew someone would comment. I'm not in the habit of posting my face on large public boards, had some bad experiences in the past.

Gloria
Mar. 27, 2010, 09:57 PM
I myself don't have problem with people posting at 1st level, or 2nd, or any level for that matter. Why? Because everybody learns at different pace. Why force them to do something they can't do efficiently? They CAN'T WIN if they cannot sit the trot anyway. So why not spare the horses' backs and let those who can sit, sit?

There is a reason we sit the trot, and that is not because we can, but because it gives us an advantage by giving better aids, and better control of the horses. Have you tried to post a good leg yield, shoulder-in, renver, trever, or half pass? I certainly can't. People who can't sit the trot really put themselves in a big disadvantage. But since that disadvantage is theirs, it doesn't bother me a bit.

As to intro at recognized shows, again, it doesn't bother me a bit either. If there is time for them, why waste the venue, huh? Most quality venues aren't cheap. I enjoy watching those kids or nervous ammies riding intro. It kind of give me a flash back of what I was like, and it gives me a warmth in my heart to know they are struggling like I did. To be honest, I have been to a few recognized shows, and the classes I enjoyed most were the egg and spoon class. I guess many will say that is not high style or prestigious enough for them huh?

myrna
Mar. 27, 2010, 10:23 PM
It doesn't matter if you show grand prix or intro.The feeling of actually riding and showing is what really matters.A 50 year old returning rider probably has more disposable income than a struggling 20 year old "good" rider.So what........Spend your nickle and your time however you want.The facial expressions after the rides are worth a million bucks.l

SillyHorse
Mar. 27, 2010, 10:24 PM
Dear, if you don't understand how dressage can be fun for kids (or anybody), why are you here?
Dear, did you actually read my post? I mean the part where I wrote, "I think dressage is fun."

If it's so much fun for kids, where are they? With a very few exceptions, not in the barns I've ridden in. Barns, by the way, with gregarious, fun people, a gregarious, fun trainer, parties, outings, etc. So, dear, how many kids are in your dressage barn?

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 27, 2010, 10:27 PM
You know why I like the idea of being able to post the trot? because some days my back just isn't up to sitting it.

*sigh* I ain't 26 anymore.

Ghazzu
Mar. 27, 2010, 11:52 PM
"You know why I like the idea of being able to post the trot? because some days my back just isn't up to sitting it."

This.
I freely admit to being a Philistine, but I have a very good friend who has trained horses to at least 4th level, if not beyond, who now has physical issues which make it impossible to sit the trot.

She will likely not be showing any road, but
I was tickled to see the news, because it might just allow her to take her horse out and show him a bit next summer.

sit the trot if you want, and quit having vapors over what anyone else is doing.

Trust me, allowing rising trot at first level is not going to be the death of civilization as we know it.

Knights Mom
Mar. 28, 2010, 12:30 AM
Some people here are mean.

It's most unattractive.

The best reason for offering walk/trot classes:

A bunch of people go in them. They pay show entries. It makes the show more money. They are often the largest classes (along with training level) of the day.



There are two types of people who go in walk/trot: Those who are afraid or uncomfortable with canter, and those whose instructors tell them to start at the bottom, get show experience for them or the horse they're riding, and then move up.

My DRESSAGE instructor was big on this because she felt you had to "earn" your way up through scores, and that's exactly what I did, despite having showed horses for decades in all sorts of competitions.... AQHA, gymkhana, jumping, etc.

Here in the U.S., and that's where YOU are, the rated shows didnt have rated walk/trot classes. Normally, it's the schooling shows (unrated) that have them. I don't really see a problem with people using a schooling show to get experience.

However, I also don't see a problem with ALL shows, including rated ones, changing the rules to make more money, or help pay for the show.

A lot of shows have less entries than ever.


I have to say, some of the responses seem awfully elitist.

JMurray
Mar. 28, 2010, 08:09 AM
They are fun. I love to show.

I love the hoopla of a recognized show and riding in my dressage clothes and braiding up my horse.

I have ridden through second level, but when my young dutch is able to do those USDF Intro tests and I can have a chance to show, that is what we will do.

Because it is fun, I enjoy showing and,and,and.

Thbt-t-t to the rest of you.

You do your thing, I'll do mine.....whatever-r-r-r-r

MaximumChrome
Mar. 28, 2010, 09:06 AM
One other reason it is good to encourage Intro classes at rated shows - so Intro riders can get feedback from a USEF judge. Too often, schooling shows are judged by people who know nothing about dressage. Not every schooling show has access (or wants to pay) for an L grad or a USEF judge. So where will those riders get the feedback that they are on the right track? So often we see people on these forums who are beginning to suspect their trainer isn't helping them - going to a show can be one hint, one more step in their education. I'm always really happy to see people venture out to their first rated show, no matter what level.

ArenaBallerina
Mar. 28, 2010, 10:17 AM
Dear, did you actually read my post? I mean the part where I wrote, "I think dressage is fun."

If it's so much fun for kids, where are they? With a very few exceptions, not in the barns I've ridden in. Barns, by the way, with gregarious, fun people, a gregarious, fun trainer, parties, outings, etc. So, dear, how many kids are in your dressage barn?

Maybe, my GMO is the odd man out, but we have a very large population of junior/young riders. Their classes are always the largest at our shows. I am 18, but opted into an adult only barn because I'm not a kid person, but all of the dressage trainers around here have a lot of kids.

quietann
Mar. 28, 2010, 11:20 AM
BaroquePony, there's always going to be stupid people at any level.

Agreed. I'm the sort of person BP wishes would just go away and die (riding Intro and Training, might get to First next year if maresy rehabs all right). I've shown, both recognized and schooling, and the WORST warm-up experiences I've had have been dealing with upper level riders who can't see past their horses' ears. *I*, the low-level rider, was the one who was on here a year ago asking about the appropriateness of a red ribbon in maresy's tail for warm-up, because she was prone to kick. The upper-level people seem to assume that their ill-behaved horses should automatically have a 20-foot bubble around them into which no mere "smurfs" like myself will enter. (BTW -- no red ribbons needed, just careful, thoughtful warm-up riding. I have a great horse!)

Gry2Yng
Mar. 28, 2010, 07:10 PM
One other reason it is good to encourage Intro classes at rated shows - so Intro riders can get feedback from a USEF judge. Too often, schooling shows are judged by people who know nothing about dressage. Not every schooling show has access (or wants to pay) for an L grad or a USEF judge. So where will those riders get the feedback that they are on the right track? So often we see people on these forums who are beginning to suspect their trainer isn't helping them - going to a show can be one hint, one more step in their education. I'm always really happy to see people venture out to their first rated show, no matter what level.

REally good point, I hadn't thought of that.

ESG
Mar. 29, 2010, 12:13 AM
Really, ESG? The Hano's I ride are all plenty forward, though not excessively so.

Really. :yes:

But then, I grew up riding OTT TBs. I like a horse that works off my leg and seat without me tenderizing them to make it so. :winkgrin:

Sandy M
Mar. 29, 2010, 11:00 AM
[QUOTE=ESG;4770475No offense intended, but I seriously doubt that the opportunity was meant for you, alone. And you did say that you did have an opportunity to go to other schooling shows, so there apparently isn't a paucity of opportunity in your area. Again, it is my opinion that adult W/T tests belong at schooling shows.

Um....what I was pointing out was that in a period of January through September there were only three schooling shows (or five if you count the very expensive for doing just an Intro Test horse trials.) And those three schooling shows were all at the same location. There are not many schooling shows in our area, but there are quite a few recognized shows, most within an hour+ drive. Ergo, most do offer Intro. There probably are some schooling shows 2 or 3 hours a way, but with the current economy and gas prices, I try to keep my showing within an 1.5 hour drive (each way).

As for "opportunity," all I meant - as I am sure you know, and are just being facetious with your comment - was that I would have even fewer opportunities to show my horse and get him some mileage if the recognized shows had excluded Intro and I were limited to the few available schooling shows. As a matter of fact, one very convenient series of recognized shows (only 40 min. away from my base area) to which I would have been delighted to go DID exclude Intro.

I still don't get the big deal about including Intro at recognized shows. So someone does W/T. Big Deal. I did it three times - once in the late fall of my horse's 4 year old year, twice at the beginning of last year, then moved up to training. Heck, I believe AQHA and some other associates even crown W/T champions, and they aren't all kiddies. (I may be mistaken about that, but I seem to recollect seing one of those congratulatory ads for a W/T Champion in a QH Journal I read while at the vet's office a little while ago, and the rider was not a junior).

lorilu
Mar. 29, 2010, 11:45 AM
If it's so much fun for kids, where are they? With a very few exceptions, not in the barns I've ridden in. Barns, by the way, with gregarious, fun people, a gregarious, fun trainer, parties, outings, etc. So, dear, how many kids are in your dressage barn?

Maybe they are not in the dressage barns because the trainer won't let them show? And they get to show in the Western and H/J barns? Play dress up, GET RIBBONS (who cares what color?), show off to friends, get pictures done????

THAT's what the kids who do W/T at shows do - and they have a BLAST.

Why not at rated shows?

L

Gry2Yng
Mar. 29, 2010, 11:50 AM
Really. :yes:

But then, I grew up riding OTT TBs. I like a horse that works off my leg and seat without me tenderizing them to make it so. :winkgrin:

Off topic, I know, but I have had many OTTB's and two Hanns. The current Hann is AS FORWARD as my best TB. He is a joy to ride. I hate to kick. Works his butt off every day just for the fun of it. The other Hann needed tenderizing. :lol: Bought them both as three yo's with about 30 days under saddle, so it wasn't the initial training. Just the mind. This one generally has to settle into his work in order to relax, just like a TB. What I love is that he settles a little bit faster and his gaits are just a bit better.

bort84
Mar. 29, 2010, 01:12 PM
Hmm, as far as really young kids in dressage... I'd imagine you see fewer in dressage (like 10 and under riders) because it can be very difficult to get a 7 year old to focus on a training level pattern and execute well. However, going around the ring (like in WP, saddle seat, etc) and getting a pretty ribbon with your placing called while you're in the lineup is very fun! Or getting to go over jumps and obstacles is also a lot of fun. Just try to convince a kid at a barn where others jump that they should do dressage in addition to or instead of jumping, most will think you're insane, haha.

In dressage, the emphasis is more on scores. It is a neat feeling for a little kid to line up like they do in the "breed show" disciplines and get their placing called out while the audience applauds. That even happens at the littlest local shows.

I know there is similarly little fuss (like in dressage) at smaller H/J shows (ribbons get handed out semi-haphazardly afterwards and the placings are often announced as the next class is getting ready to come in). But having obstacles to go over can incentivize a younger rider to focus on a pattern if that's what allows them to jump.

Anyway, I think kids might like some dressage suitability, equitation, pleasure, or trail classes at shows where you get a bit more fuss made over you if you place. Then throw in some "fun" classes at the end of the day. Egg in spoon, bareback, double bareback, ribbon race, costume, etc. Kids love stuff like that, and at a schooling show, it's a fairly easy addition.

I will say that I was definitely the little kid who would have loved dressage. I grew up riding saddle seat, but it was always the little tiny details that interested me, why this makes that happen and how I can do it so my horse understands better. I didn't see a need to jump to have fun, but I will admit that the patterns probably would have felt a bit daunting at first.

Trevelyan96
Mar. 29, 2010, 05:36 PM
As to the snaffle at FEI. I just don't see the point of changing the rule. Yes, all FEI horses should be able to all the FEI movements, etc in the snaffle. I school the PSG horse I ride in a snaffle regularly, much moreso than in the double. But for a show, I don't see why they need to allow the snaffle.

Again, sorry if I came off as condescending or rude to anyone.

This logic confuses the crap out of me. IMHO, the more highly trained the horse, the less equipment you should need. And I really think that each horse is different, and if your horse does FEI movements brilliantly in a snaffle, why pile on the extra noise of the double.

Of course, I still don't understand why so many upper level riders are so dependent on their spurs either.

I guess I'm just destined to spend the rest of my days in the lower levls getting good rythm and round circles on my happy SOUND horse and annoying the crap out of the elite riders because I insist on riding in a snaffle sans spurs and whip.

ETA: I also enjoy watching a well done Intro test a whole lot more than a crank and spank 1st level. IMHO, if more riders were encouraged to stay a little longer at Intro and Training getting the basics solid, we'd have better 1st and 2nd level riders and sounder horses.

johnnysauntie
Mar. 29, 2010, 05:56 PM
Because I'm a re-rider and my horse is a wriggly greenie OTTB, things like correct bend and establishing solid rhythm were hard.

But ... because I was able to ride Intro tests I got bitten by the show bug, and the USEF and USDF garnered a new member.

Because some kind judges took the time to provide thoughtful and constructive comments, I was encouraged! And thrilled with my blue ribbons and, most of all, improving scores. A lot of hard work went into these accomplishments, as small as they may seem to others.

Sadly, because of kissing spines, my wriggly OTTB is headed for a life of leisure. Because I won't be showing, my GMO has gained a new scribe and volunteer.

And, because I really like this sport, I'm machinating behind the scenes, working on getting hubby to say yes to horse #2. I'll keep riding with my trainer, and someone is going to sell me another horse some day.

That's a lot of economic benefit for the sport, all because of Intro A!

Trevelyan96
Mar. 29, 2010, 06:44 PM
Because I'm a re-rider and my horse is a wriggly greenie OTTB, things like correct bend and establishing solid rhythm were hard.

But ... because I was able to ride Intro tests I got bitten by the show bug, and the USEF and USDF garnered a new member.

Because some kind judges took the time to provide thoughtful and constructive comments, I was encouraged! And thrilled with my blue ribbons and, most of all, improving scores. A lot of hard work went into these accomplishments, as small as they may seem to others.

Sadly, because of kissing spines, my wriggly OTTB is headed for a life of leisure. Because I won't be showing, my GMO has gained a new scribe and volunteer.

And, because I really like this sport, I'm machinating behind the scenes, working on getting hubby to say yes to horse #2. I'll keep riding with my trainer, and someone is going to sell me another horse some day.

That's a lot of economic benefit for the sport, all because of Intro A!

Now that is how to make a point! Bravo!

Trevelyan96
Mar. 29, 2010, 06:51 PM
Every journey begins with the first step. In dressage, that first step is Intro. For some, taking that first step is the hardest. Imagine how much harder it would be if that first step were taken away! Making someone feel ashamed to 'show' they've matered that first step, or even TAKEN that first step is just plain bad for the sport.

dressurpferd01
Mar. 29, 2010, 10:54 PM
What if that first step was first level like it used to be? Or even training level that was added quite a bit later? Intro is a really recent addition. None of us are trying to "make people ashamed" of showing intro.

I may not have been showing for very long, but I'd be interested to see the show ring when there was no training level. I'd bet the quality of the riding was quite a bit higher.

Sandy M
Mar. 30, 2010, 01:29 AM
What if that first step was first level like it used to be? Or even training level that was added quite a bit later? Intro is a really recent addition. None of us are trying to "make people ashamed" of showing intro.

I may not have been showing for very long, but I'd be interested to see the show ring when there was no training level. I'd bet the quality of the riding was quite a bit higher.


I'm nearly 65. Been showing for a long time. It wasn't any better. THere's more quality instruction now than there was then, for one thing. And while it used to be that there was nothing below Preliminary in eventing, the courses were not as difficult and a big hooray was given when Training Level and then Novice were introduced. LIke INtro, a place to get your feet wet before moving up.

myrna
Mar. 30, 2010, 01:35 AM
to SandyM

I wish i had access to the level of coaching that is available now 40 years ago!Just think where i could be now!

Dressage Art
Mar. 30, 2010, 01:53 AM
[QUOTE=ESG;4770475No offense intended, but I seriously doubt that the opportunity was meant for you, alone. And you did say that you did have an opportunity to go to other schooling shows, so there apparently isn't a paucity of opportunity in your area. Again, it is my opinion that adult W/T tests belong at schooling shows.

Um....what I was pointing out was that in a period of January through September there were only three schooling shows (or five if you count the very expensive for doing just an Intro Test horse trials.) And those three schooling shows were all at the same location. There are not many schooling shows in our area, but there are quite a few recognized shows, most within an hour+ drive. Ergo, most do offer Intro. There probably are some schooling shows 2 or 3 hours a way, but with the current economy and gas prices, I try to keep my showing within an 1.5 hour drive (each way).

As for "opportunity," all I meant - as I am sure you know, and are just being facetious with your comment - was that I would have even fewer opportunities to show my horse and get him some mileage if the recognized shows had excluded Intro and I were limited to the few available schooling shows. As a matter of fact, one very convenient series of recognized shows (only 40 min. away from my base area) to which I would have been delighted to go DID exclude Intro.

I still don't get the big deal about including Intro at recognized shows. So someone does W/T. Big Deal. I did it three times - once in the late fall of my horse's 4 year old year, twice at the beginning of last year, then moved up to training. Heck, I believe AQHA and some other associates even crown W/T champions, and they aren't all kiddies. (I may be mistaken about that, but I seem to recollect seing one of those congratulatory ads for a W/T Champion in a QH Journal I read while at the vet's office a little while ago, and the rider was not a junior).

I live at the same area as Sandy M does and she is correct that there are more recognized shows than schooling shows. (Even we have quite a lot of schooling shows as well) We have a rated show almost every weekend year round. I have no idea why, but also our schooling shows are most of the times are oversubscribed. I just judged one with about 80 riders and regular day show is about 60 riders. Another schooling show before that I judged was also running "overtime" I think I was done at 6:30 PM.

+ Not many barns put out schooling shows during the rainy months. So during those times, some people go to rated shows and show Intro Level.

meupatdoes
Mar. 30, 2010, 06:37 AM
What if that first step was first level like it used to be? Or even training level that was added quite a bit later? Intro is a really recent addition. None of us are trying to "make people ashamed" of showing intro.

I may not have been showing for very long, but I'd be interested to see the show ring when there was no training level. I'd bet the quality of the riding was quite a bit higher.

1. Do you think the quality of the riding would be higher because all the people who aren't as good would just stay home, or do you think the same number of people would be showing but they would just ride better?

In other words, do you think eliminating training level will actually create more educated riders, or do you think it will just have the less educated riders stay the same, at home?

2. I think the less educated riders would just try to kick their horses around first. Half the people currently showing first should be in training level; imagine if you took training level away...


People seem to think that if you just keep the less educated riders away from the horseshows, the sport as a whole will get better. Except, the same people will be just as uneducated, just at home.

Having gradual classes that move up from entry level, rather than having everyone just stay home until they think they can kick around at PSG, is imo far more educational than excluding everyone until they are already good.

If we suddenly said, "Dressage horse shows should be serious business, no one gets to show until they've earned it and can ride FEI" this does not mean that suddenly in the USofA everyone will learn to ride FEI. It will just mean than 90% of the dressage showing world has to stay home now.

Jokerli
Mar. 31, 2010, 10:46 AM
I think rising trot at first level is fine. I would much prefer to see a lovely balanced rising trot than a sitting trot on a horse not ready for it (for whatever reason). There were some really interesting studies carried out in Europe last year. The results indicate that rising trot really is better for the horse's back:

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=15517

AHorseoffCourse
Mar. 31, 2010, 01:06 PM
When I first got into Dressage I could RIDE.

One poster said:

"Trail riding one to three hours a day six days a week for several years would be a much better foundation than a walk trot dressage test."

I came over from endurance and let me tell you - I could ride my horse at any gait, bareback, with my feet up near my ears and not come off.

BUT - I STILL had to show intro for my first test because our canter was NOT show ready. I have a top instructor and it's only through her that we have progressed as well as we have. It wasnt a matter of being safe or comfortable at a canter - it was a matter getting her strong and obedient enough to yeild to bridle, bring her hind legs under neath of her etc. I'm not allowed to show at a level until my trainer thinks I can score at least a 60 in the ring, which means I have to be schooling in the upper 60s and 70's before it's deemed "show worthy".

In May I'll be showing my first training test. And my showing experience will have been made better by doing those intro tests. I know what the judges are looking for because I've already got some feedback. Showing recognized is very expensive and intro was a good way of spending a little money to get some feedback on our trianing, before spending more money to do the first training test.

AHorseoffCourse
Mar. 31, 2010, 01:07 PM
If anything all those hours and years on the trail HURT our riding because trail riding without any previous dressage instruction doesn't do a whole lot for riding correctly....

flshgordon
Mar. 31, 2010, 01:34 PM
Every journey begins with the first step. In dressage, that first step is Intro. For some, taking that first step is the hardest. Imagine how much harder it would be if that first step were taken away! Making someone feel ashamed to 'show' they've matered that first step, or even TAKEN that first step is just plain bad for the sport.

Hmmm...can't say I really agree with this--that the first step of dressage is Intro.

It is not a recognized qualifying level, they don't have it at regional competitions. I do not consider that at all to be the first step of dressage. I consider it the first step of learning how to ride, but not the first step of dressage and not a first step to showing.

I think I get to chime in with personal experience because I raised and "trained" (I use that term loosely :winkgrin: ) my now 7yo mare myself, I have done all the showing and I have never before had a dressage horse, or raised a baby.

We simply did not show until we were ready to canter in that environment. I don't think we skipped any steps and I don't think we made fools of ourselves the first time out. We simply didn't go until we were ready. Yes we had green horse moments, yes our canter was strung out and downhill at times, but that's all part of the game.

Why does that offend so many people? Recognized shows are often plenty long enough before adding intro classes and there are always, MANY entries in the training level classes and a lot of those people are at their first shows, green horses, etc. Why can't it start there?


And for the rest, I don't like the posting at First Level either. Don't see how it will help anyone to drag out the heartache until 2nd level if they haven't yet learned to sit.

flshgordon
Mar. 31, 2010, 01:46 PM
1. Do you think the quality of the riding would be higher because all the people who aren't as good would just stay home, or do you think the same number of people would be showing but they would just ride better?

In other words, do you think eliminating training level will actually create more educated riders, or do you think it will just have the less educated riders stay the same, at home?

2. I think the less educated riders would just try to kick their horses around first. Half the people currently showing first should be in training level; imagine if you took training level away...


People seem to think that if you just keep the less educated riders away from the horseshows, the sport as a whole will get better. Except, the same people will be just as uneducated, just at home.

Having gradual classes that move up from entry level, rather than having everyone just stay home until they think they can kick around at PSG, is imo far more educational than excluding everyone until they are already good.

If we suddenly said, "Dressage horse shows should be serious business, no one gets to show until they've earned it and can ride FEI" this does not mean that suddenly in the USofA everyone will learn to ride FEI. It will just mean than 90% of the dressage showing world has to stay home now.

Overly dramatic much :confused:

No one is advocating getting rid of training level (or for that matter, making shows start at PSG), nor does anyone need to worry about it going anywhere. It's a recognized level where you can qualify for year-end awards. I'm pretty sure it's safe!

I also don't quite understand the use of the term "education" regarding horse shows. I don't feel that I get more education by going to horse shows. Sure I get some comments from a judge on our abilities on that given day, but I don't learn how to make it better from going to a show. I learn that AT HOME, from a trainer. That's where people should be getting their education from--a trainer. Shows are just a measuring stick for your progress.

if it's miles on a show grounds you're after, why not save the money for a TRAINER and take your horse as a non-compete. It's probably 1/4 of the price, you get to ride in the busy atmosphere and see how your horse behaves, but you don't have to worry about being truly ready to show.

Not everyone has a trainer, I get that....but most everyone has something that helps them learn--books/video/clinics, you name it. The real education comes at home. By the time you get to a show, it's too late to be learning new stuff, you have what you have and you try to hold it together for 6 minutes at a time.

meupatdoes
Mar. 31, 2010, 02:05 PM
Overly dramatic much :confused:

No one is advocating getting rid of training level (or for that matter, making shows start at PSG), nor does anyone need to worry about it going anywhere. It's a recognized level where you can qualify for year-end awards. I'm pretty sure it's safe!

I also don't quite understand the use of the term "education" regarding horse shows. I don't feel that I get more education by going to horse shows. Sure I get some comments from a judge on our abilities on that given day, but I don't learn how to make it better from going to a show. I learn that AT HOME, from a trainer. That's where people should be getting their education from--a trainer. Shows are just a measuring stick for your progress.

if it's miles on a show grounds you're after, why not save the money for a TRAINER and take your horse as a non-compete. It's probably 1/4 of the price, you get to ride in the busy atmosphere and see how your horse behaves, but you don't have to worry about being truly ready to show.

Not everyone has a trainer, I get that....but most everyone has something that helps them learn--books/video/clinics, you name it. The real education comes at home. By the time you get to a show, it's too late to be learning new stuff, you have what you have and you try to hold it together for 6 minutes at a time.

Nobody is being overdramatic.

dressurpferd commented that he believed the riding was probably better in the pre-Training Level days when the first level you could enter was First.

My response was to ask whether the riding was likely "probably better" without Training Level (his premise, remember, not mine) because

1. people were actually inspired to ride better so they could show First Level
or
2. everyone who couldn't come close to First just stayed home?

How is that an "overdramatic" response to his premise?

whbar158
Mar. 31, 2010, 02:17 PM
Honestly it is just the way the whole horse world is going. When my mom showed (in the 70's in the hunters before changing to dressage/HT) jumping for hunters started at 3'6" if you were on a horse, ponies got to jump lower, some shows might offer a 2'9" or 3' baby green class, but did not have to. I come from the hunter world, I know that many people that are old school do not like how many 3' and 2'6" classes there are now (although most rated shows do not have w/t classes), but fact is without the lower divisions the shows would not have enough money to provide the upper level classes.


Although I am in the camp of if the horse can't w/t/c it shouldn't go to the show and show. I know many (hunter) trainers that bring their young horses along to shows but only show once they are ready. There are no w/t classes for people under the age of 10 usually at many shows, even schooling ones. I know some dressage people who bring their young horses to hunter schooling shows first. But personally I don't think I would consider taking a horse to a recognized show without the intention of doing training.


I have done Intro tests before, in pony club and at a few HT when I was doing maiden. I got insanely high scores for them, but that is because not much is asked other than consistent and following the test. I do think intro tests are important but I wish they were not at the recognized shows, but understand why.

flshgordon
Mar. 31, 2010, 02:29 PM
Nobody is being overdramatic.

dressurpferd commented that he believed the riding was probably better in the pre-Training Level days when the first level you could enter was First.

My response was to ask whether the riding was likely "probably better" without Training Level (his premise, remember, not mine) because

1. people were actually inspired to ride better so they could show First Level
or
2. everyone who couldn't come close to First just stayed home?

How is that an "overdramatic" response to his premise?

He's probably right....those who couldn't show first probably stayed home back then. Just like in the "old days" of hunters, everyone stayed home until they could show over 3'3 or 3'6".

You also said "Having gradual classes that move up from entry level, rather than having everyone just stay home until they think they can kick around at PSG, is imo far more educational than excluding everyone until they are already good.

If we suddenly said, "Dressage horse shows should be serious business, no one gets to show until they've earned it and can ride FEI" this does not mean that suddenly in the USofA everyone will learn to ride FEI. "

That's the part that is way overly dramatic.

johnnysauntie
Mar. 31, 2010, 02:29 PM
I could have ridden a training test safely and accurately. But not well. I didn't show Training last year because, among other things, my horse has a horrific lateral canter. And fixing a lateral canter takes work and real attention to basics, which I need to hone.

But, as I stated in my post above, I am glad I got to tag along when my barn went to shows. I'm glad I got to ride, even if it was just intro. I'm glad I have those first show jitters out of the way. And, along the way, I was bitten by the bug and am getting more involved and committed.

One sees horrific rides at many levels - I watched some first level rides last weekend that were stupendously bad. The complaints on this board about people showing above their level of competence is valid.

So whither the intro rider. Some of us are taking a slow, thorough and methodical approach to learning. Some are enjoying the camaraderie of our friends. Some are keeping a much loved but not sound for cantering horse fit and flexible (I know a few of these.) I mean, come on, showing is fun! There's room in the sandbox for everyone, sheesh.

At the end of the day, follow the money. Lower levels are good for the sport, even if they make the day longer.

Arizona DQ
Mar. 31, 2010, 02:37 PM
I hate that my first post is going to be a rant, but oh well, here goes.

I've ridden all my life, including competing in competitive trail riding. Gotten back into horses, have a young Arab who's got a great mind for dressage. I've never done it before, am taking lessons from a good trainer. Was thrilled that shows offer walk trot so I can take said young Arab in a class and he and I can fumble through it a few times without feeling really awkward. As a few others have said so well here, walk trot serves an important role for many reasons.

And I'll ride in it for one other reason - I'm almost 58 years old, am lucky to have my health and be able to ride - but there's no doubt that my riding clock is ticking. If I take your advice and wait until Mr Arab and I are perfect, I MIGHT NOT GET THERE! At least with riding Intro this summer, if I have to quit riding for some reason, I'll at least know that I rode in a dressage test and satisfied, in some way, one of my long standing dreams. Morbid, but true.

Sheesh, I thought Arab people were snobby....

Oldernewbie,

I am one as well! I have no aspirations of going past 2nd Level (if I live that long...:D), but right now until we get past the correct lead issues with my half Arab mare, I still like to go to a few schooling shows and do my Intro.... SO WHAT!!!!

I always read about how to make Dressage more popular? Well, let the "Little People" play too. We are not a threat to the DQs of the world and thank goodness there are trainers who are happy to work with us. We are not contagious, for cripes sake!!!:no:

In today's economy, I would think clubs who are struggling for survival would be happy to welcome us. It is not like we want to ride at the WEG!!!

BTW, I am NOT dangerous at the shows, my mare and I have more sense than most of the WBs that are shown! BTDT on miles and miles of trail riding!!!!!

Arizona DQ
Mar. 31, 2010, 02:39 PM
Maybe we should introduce a halt test aswell as many people can't halt their horses;)

:lol::lol::lol::lol: That!!!!

Arizona DQ
Mar. 31, 2010, 02:58 PM
Seriously, Intro IS NOT rocket science. A horse that does well should be scoring in the 80s. It usually IS stingy judges that cause low scores for Intro. They just don't seem to get it and read the directives.

(I'm not talking about Santa Claus judges who throw high scores at everyone at every level, whether or not they've earned them.)

I have had to check the requirements of the Intro Test because some of the judges comments read as if I were riding Training level..... :( So I do not think most judges (at least those I have show to) are "giving" high scores to us poor beginners..... :no:

mg
Mar. 31, 2010, 03:14 PM
I don't understand any of the arguments being made in favor of posting a first level test. If you can't sit properly yet, stay in training level. The general consensus seems to be that people typically school a level or two higher than they show. So, that means those showing first are schooling at least second level at home, which requires collection and using your seat properly to attain that...in the sitting trot. If you aren't ready to sit the trot well, you aren't ready to move up to first.

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 31, 2010, 03:24 PM
I still think that the tests should call for lateral BEFORE sitting as the lateral helps supple the back for sitting.

Anyway this can happen Im ok with :)

Sandy M
Mar. 31, 2010, 03:45 PM
Overly dramatic much :confused:

if it's miles on a show grounds you're after, why not save the money for a TRAINER and take your horse as a non-compete. It's probably 1/4 of the price, you get to ride in the busy atmosphere and see how your horse behaves, but you don't have to worry about being truly ready to show.



Not quite sure what you mean by this. The atmosphere at home or at a trainer's barn is NOT the same as a show. If you mean ride hors de concours AT a show...please let me know where they let you do this for a discount. All the shows I know of - recognized or not - demand full entry fee to ride in a class, whether you're competing or riding hdc.

Arizona DQ
Mar. 31, 2010, 03:48 PM
This logic confuses the crap out of me. IMHO, the more highly trained the horse, the less equipment you should need. And I really think that each horse is different, and if your horse does FEI movements brilliantly in a snaffle, why pile on the extra noise of the double.
.

But can you do ROLLKUR in a snaffle??????:D:D:D:D:D

Dressage Art
Mar. 31, 2010, 03:48 PM
If you can't sit properly yet, stay in training level.It's not about riders, it's about horses. For example, I can sit the trot quite well, but if given an option of posting, I would always post. It's not about me; it's about horse's back. Many young horses don't have their spine plates closed yet during 1st level. Additional spine concussion are not necessary for them. 99% of them would swing their backs more if riders will post. They didn't yet develop collection and muscles that helps to make it comfortable sitting trot for BOTH horses and riders.

2nd level is the starting of collection, uphill balance, horse's back should be stronger and rounder, hind legs should come under more and hind end should carry more weight = horse's back is ready to carry sitting trot with more comfort.

Even with more advanced horses, when you do a re-hab or warm-up you start posting with them - it's just easier on their backs.

Melyni
Mar. 31, 2010, 03:55 PM
But can you do ROLLKUR in a snaffle??????:D:D:D:D:D

YOU betcha!

And there is nothing wrong with making dressage popular, even if it means a few tests with no canter in them.
Though I agree fully that they should not count towards high scores, they need their own high score ribbons.

MW

Sandy M
Mar. 31, 2010, 03:55 PM
Oldernewbie,

I am one as well! I have no aspirations of going past 2nd Level (if I live that long...:D), but right now until we get past the correct lead issues with my half Arab mare, I still like to go to a few schooling shows and do my Intro.... SO WHAT!!!!

I always read about how to make Dressage more popular? Well, let the "Little People" play too. We are not a threat to the DQs of the world and thank goodness there are trainers who are happy to work with us. We are not contagious, for cripes sake!!!:no:

In today's economy, I would think clubs who are struggling for survival would be happy to welcome us. It is not like we want to ride at the WEG!!!

BTW, I am NOT dangerous at the shows, my mare and I have more sense than most of the WBs that are shown! BTDT on miles and miles of trail riding!!!!!


ROFLOL!!! Honey, I'm 65 and in a moment of "Oldtimers Disease" actually went out and bought an unstarted 2.5 year old Araloosa. He's 16.2, a LOVELY mover, but I swear he's bi-polar (manic Arab/depressive Appaloosa). Believe me, I love him and he's a sweetie, BUT...many people have told me that lots of Arabs and halfbreds take a while to mature mentally.....

There are moments which I think, "Do I still have the ability and guts to ride a horse like this?" He definitely needed exposure to new places and things and the show atmosphere, and while he was and is schooling nicely at home and at my trainer's barn in all three gaits, we really NEEDED a opportunity to get out and show in an "easy" class like Intro w/o adding the excitement of canter. When he did canter in public for the first time at a show, he got nearly 65%, so cool. But the first show, he spent most of his time during his Intro test leaping sideways from the marker pylons, the judge's stand, etc., etc., etc.

I don't think I lack "nerve" - I evented through Prelim, did jumpers to 4'6", a=nd have always trail ridden (even on my present bebe) but I'm older now, and I'd just as soon not end up on the ground (or in the hospital), thank you very much. The first show, I even wore my eventer's crash ("Oh, I hope not...." Bill Dana as Jose Jimenez, The Right Stuff) vest during the test. ROFLOL If, as some keep suggesting, Intro should be limited to schooling shows, I would have had very few opportunities to get him out and used to the showing experience.

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 31, 2010, 04:01 PM
ROFLOL!!! Honey, I'm 65 and in a moment of "Oldtimers Disease" actually went out and bought an unstarted 2.5 year old Araloosa. He's 16.2, a LOVELY mover, but I swear he's bi-polar (manic Arab/depressive Appaloosa). Believe me, I love him and he's a sweetie, BUT...many people have told me that lots of Arabs and halfbreds take a while to mature mentally.....

There are moments which I think, "Do I still have the ability and guts to ride a horse like this?" He definitely needed exposure to new places and things and the show atmosphere, and while he was and is schooling nicely at home and at my trainer's barn in all three gaits, we really NEEDED a opportunity to get out and show in an "easy" class like Intro w/o adding the excitement of canter. When he did canter in public for the first time at a show, he got nearly 65%, so cool. But the first show, he spent most of his time during his Intro test leaping sideways from the marker pylons, the judge's stand, etc., etc., etc.

I don't think I lack "nerve" - I evented through Prelim, did jumpers to 4'6", a=nd have always trail ridden (even on my present bebe) but I'm older now, and I'd just as soon not end up on the ground (or in the hospital), thank you very much. The first show, I even wore my eventer's crash ("Oh, I hope not...." Bill Dana as Jose Jimenez, The Right Stuff) vest during the test. ROFLOL If, as some keep suggesting, Intro should be limited to schooling shows, I would have had very few opportunities to get him out and used to the showing experience.


I think my arab is 12 and hes not mature :) LOL

Active minded, thats what they are VERY active minded.

meupatdoes
Mar. 31, 2010, 04:06 PM
He's probably right....those who couldn't show first probably stayed home back then. Just like in the "old days" of hunters, everyone stayed home until they could show over 3'3 or 3'6".

You also said "Having gradual classes that move up from entry level, rather than having everyone just stay home until they think they can kick around at PSG, is imo far more educational than excluding everyone until they are already good.

If we suddenly said, "Dressage horse shows should be serious business, no one gets to show until they've earned it and can ride FEI" this does not mean that suddenly in the USofA everyone will learn to ride FEI. "

That's the part that is way overly dramatic.

I still don't understand how that is overdramatic?

It simply points out, by way of example, my opinion that excluding lower level competitors is not going to make the riding in this sport any better. Nobody is going to ride PSG better if we eliminate 1-4, so probably nobody is going to ride Training or First any better if we eliminate Intro.*

*Please let's not all leap to the false logical conclusion that this means my opinion must be that conversely, Intro level classes make the sport better.
I just don't think there is any reason to eliminate them or have a problem with their existence, the end.

Meanwhile, I debuted my coming 5yo hunter at First Level over the weekend and would have broken a 70% were it not for a course error on my part. However I was completely unbothered by the Intro and Training level riders at the show; I was pleased at the opportunity to ride somebody else's green horse in a Training Level class, and I am pleased that the opportunity remains available to me to, for example, take a project horse that may only have 30 or 40 rides on it around an Intro level class for some nice show pics on the sales page.

Intro is a useful division for a variety of reasons and, even though I am well capable of waiting til First and doing just fine if that is how the cookie were to crumble, I'm glad it's around.

yaya
Mar. 31, 2010, 05:24 PM
Not quite sure what you mean by this. The atmosphere at home or at a trainer's barn is NOT the same as a show. If you mean ride hors de concours AT a show...please let me know where they let you do this for a discount. All the shows I know of - recognized or not - demand full entry fee to ride in a class, whether you're competing or riding hdc.

What she meant was take the horse as a non-competing horse. You don't enter any classes, but you have the horse at the showgrounds, you ride in the warmup with all the other horses, you just don't do any tests.

Depends on the show as to what kind of fees they do/do not charge to do this.

bort84
Mar. 31, 2010, 06:10 PM
While I can understand why some feel the "dumbing down" of dressage is bad, I think these steps are worth it to encourage people to join the sport. It's like most businesses - you are likely to be more successful if you can reach a new market once your existing markets are saturated with your product. Reaching out to beginners in the sport is the really the only way to attract long-term participants - everyone has to start somewhere.

I that as we add more participants, we need to understand there are many different types of riders these days. When dressage was just FEI, it was mostly pros. Add lower levels, and you can increase amateur participation and bring more $$ into the sport. This gives people a chance to compete who might only get to ride 1-2 horses everyday versus 6-10. Add training and intro, and you can start including those who only get to ride one horse every couple of days. Not everyone has the time or talent to get to even 1st level. So I think we have to remember that when we think about the "good old days" - there are just more people involved now, which is good!

Yes, I can understand not wanting intro classes at recognized shows if it makes the day extra long - honestly, coming over from the saddlebred world, I was quite shocked at first at how EARLY dressage shows start. Sheesh! I'd rather show until 10pm than have a class at 7am, but that's me = ) But if the show needs more entries to be able to hold the show, then go for it.

I also understand the argument - ride at home until you're ready. But showing is really fun and is a good incentive for a lot of people. And even riding around at the show grounds doesn't prep some people who have horrible nerves. Some need that real ring experience. Better to do it in an intro class where all you need to do is basically do a couple of figures at a walk and trot - nearly everyone's nerves can handle that. Plus, some horses really know when it's "show time" vs. practice time, and need real trips in the ring to learn.

Just because someone enjoys showing doesn't necessarily mean they are only in it for the ribbons. If intro makes them happy and encourages them to feel more comfortable joining the DQs of the world, I think that's great.

As far as snaffles and posting 1st level, I agree with others that feel this is not going to keep us "down" in world dressage standings - our international competitors are not really affected by these rule changes. Nobody is laughing at us, and if they are, who cares? We have much less history in this country in the english disciplines, so we may have to cater to our newer riders in different ways. It's like eventing and jumpers - the advanced riders competing at the top levels of the sport are generally a different ball game than the majority of amateurs. If anything, these changes might provide a wider pool of future talents to choose from.

Again, while I understand both sides of all of the arguments presented here, I just don't feel that it's really that big of a deal = )

Sandy M
Mar. 31, 2010, 06:54 PM
What she meant was take the horse as a non-competing horse. You don't enter any classes, but you have the horse at the showgrounds, you ride in the warmup with all the other horses, you just don't do any tests.

Depends on the show as to what kind of fees they do/do not charge to do this.

Guess what? My "hot" horse will stand tied to the trailer at a show ground for hours on end, quietly. Oh, he may stare a bit at first, but a manger full of hay takes care of that. But under saddle - whole different thing. Riding in the warmup when you're not entered? Nope, not permitted. The only way to get experience showing is....showing. And again, in our area, not so many schooling shows, lots of recognized shows. For me, personally, obviously the issue is moot, we're doing training level now, but I'll still defend the right of greenies -equine or equestrian - to ride Intro at any show where it's offered and whether it's restricted to schooling shows obviously seems to depend upon the area. Around here, that would mean very few opportunities to show. The experience IS very helpful for both horse and rider.

Sandy M
Mar. 31, 2010, 06:58 PM
I think my arab is 12 and hes not mature :) LOL

Active minded, thats what they are VERY active minded.

You are NOT helping me! LOL I was hoping to get Arabian "get up and go" and Appaloosa calmness. Ummm.....got Arab "OMG!!" and Appaloosa, "You want me to do WHAT?" Oh, he does what I ask, and willingly, but he has to be given a good reason............. Neither breed takes much to being "told what to do."

NOMIOMI1
Mar. 31, 2010, 07:20 PM
I have had both of those breeds :)

They taught me everything I know lmao

Sandy M
Mar. 31, 2010, 07:41 PM
I have had both of those breeds :)

They taught me everything I know lmao


A friend of mine refers to the cross as "fire and ice" plus "sensitivity and stubbornness." LOL

Just for laughs, here is a pic of him at his 2nd show in April of '09 (His first was in Sept. 08) in (very scary) warmup prior to doing Intro 2. Note the crash vest! Unlike his first show, I actually took it off before doing the test.

http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/28846/2339614270103428920S600x600Q85.jpg (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2339614270103428920dsyyLr)

Gry2Yng
Mar. 31, 2010, 08:59 PM
A friend of mine refers to the cross as "fire and ice" plus "sensitivity and stubbornness." LOL

Just for laughs, here is a pic of him at his 2nd show in April of '09 (His first was in Sept. 08) in (very scary) warmup prior to doing Intro 2. Note the crash vest! Unlike his first show, I actually took it off before doing the test.

http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/28846/2339614270103428920S600x600Q85.jpg (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2339614270103428920dsyyLr)

Good looking horse. Had an app stallion when I was a kid, black with a blanket. Stunning. Had to carry a 2x4 just to lead him. Put me off apps. That said, I have an OTTB, 18 yo that I *should* carry a 2x4 when leading. Older and wiser now. Probably wasn't the horse. He was great with my dad, who advised *I* use the 2x4.

ETA: The 2x4 gave the horse something to chew on other than me. Not for beating him.

oldernewbie
Mar. 31, 2010, 10:02 PM
I think my arab is 12 and hes not mature :) LOL

Active minded, thats what they are VERY active minded.

Hey! Howdy to all you other "mature" :winkgrin: Arab riding crazies!

My first dressage instructor said, very primly, that she would not have recommended a 3yo for someone my age riding again. Well, I probably wouldn't have either, but when I realized that my guy has the mind of a saint, I decided to go for it. It's taken me a year to sort out what he and I want to be when we grow up, but I have enjoyed it all, even the dramatic spill I took last Saturday when he had a rare moment of stupidity. All I can say is that turnout is essential for Arabs, especially young ones. The mud has kept him in and he's a little loonier than usual.

Finally, many many thanks to all the interesting and kind people who've made accepting and insightful comments on this thread. I am looking forward to my first show...maybe 5/22???

Sandy M
Mar. 31, 2010, 10:33 PM
Hey! Howdy to all you other "mature" :winkgrin: Arab riding crazies!

My first dressage instructor said, very primly, that she would not have recommended a 3yo for someone my age riding again. Well, I probably wouldn't have either, but when I realized that my guy has the mind of a saint, I decided to go for it. It's taken me a year to sort out what he and I want to be when we grow up, but I have enjoyed it all, even the dramatic spill I took last Saturday when he had a rare moment of stupidity. All I can say is that turnout is essential for Arabs, especially young ones. The mud has kept him in and he's a little loonier than usual.

Finally, many many thanks to all the interesting and kind people who've made accepting and insightful comments on this thread. I am looking forward to my first show...maybe 5/22???

Amen to the turnout! My guy's regular stall has a 150' x 35' paddock attached. He tweaked his MCL last September and I had to move him (vet's orders) to a 12 x 12 with attached 12 x 12 paddock, i.e., NO RUNNING AROUND! Welll...it's been an adventure ever since. Yes, Ms. Vet, I'll exercise him, under saddle, WALK only. Riiiiiight. Only on a bit of ACE. Now that his rehab is up to 20 mins trot/5 mins canter, his manners have finally re turned and the rodeos have pretty much ceased. I can't WAIT until I can put him back in his regular quarters.

Velvet
Mar. 31, 2010, 10:59 PM
Not so much an Appa-loser then, but more like an Appa-looser (like getting loose, get it?). Okay, if I have to explain that means it's only funny to me. ;)

dressage_queens
Mar. 31, 2010, 11:35 PM
A friend of mine refers to the cross as "fire and ice" plus "sensitivity and stubbornness." LOL

Just for laughs, here is a pic of him at his 2nd show in April of '09 (His first was in Sept. 08) in (very scary) warmup prior to doing Intro 2. Note the crash vest! Unlike his first show, I actually took it off before doing the test.

http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/28846/2339614270103428920S600x600Q85.jpg (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2339614270103428920dsyyLr)

Sandy, your comments have made my day. I too agree with the notion of Intro being a great starting point. It is NOT infringing on anyone's "right" to show, recognized or schooling. And who said showing is a right anyhow, who are these all knowing gods of dressage? Last I checked, anyone who pays the show fees and arrives with horse in tow has the right to show. Who the hell cares if someone wants to get their feet wet with a walk/trot test, and if they feel like paying the extra $ to show recognized, SO WHAT. It doesn't always mean they're not cantering at home, but you know what, if they're not, again, who the hell cares. They may choose to never canter their horse again but it doesn't mean they are necessarily posing a safety hazard in a warm up or show ring.

I showed Intro level on my off track T.B. a few years ago and I was damn proud of my year end championship ribbon. When we were getting high 70's, well it was more then time to move on. I ended my partnership with him after showing sucessfully at 1st level and "gave" him to one of my teenage riding students. Her nerves were better suited to his T.B. show nerves. I set out to buy a calmer horse and guess what I got - an arab/appy cross! Calmer, yeah right. Like you said, bipolar is more like it! The arab OMG what the hell is that kicks in at oppurtune moments at some shows providing endless minutes of fun. But I will say it's all worth it because when the appy kicks in she acts like a good old trail horse, and will walk out of the ring calmly on the buckle. Can't say the same for my T.B., once the jigging started it was all over.

Your gelding is gorgeous! It looks like you're doing great with him, he looks quite fine in that photo. Keep it up, I started with intro with my spotted pony and now we're showing 1st after just a season. And isn't it cool having such a colorful horse in a sea of bays and browns :cool:

atr
Mar. 31, 2010, 11:46 PM
There's nothing like a good appy :)

flshgordon
Apr. 1, 2010, 11:22 PM
Not quite sure what you mean by this. The atmosphere at home or at a trainer's barn is NOT the same as a show. If you mean ride hors de concours AT a show...please let me know where they let you do this for a discount. All the shows I know of - recognized or not - demand full entry fee to ride in a class, whether you're competing or riding hdc.

You don't ride in a class, you merely take the horse TO the show as a non-compete. You pay a small fee to be able to ride your horse around the show grounds, in the warmup arenas at any time, after hours in the ring when other people are practicing. If you have someone sit at the table like a judge, you get the same benefits as showing...the busy warmup is often the hardest thing to navigate at a show and you have free access to that.

For our big spring show here, the non-compete fee is $25 per show. Fri-Sat is a 2 day show so you pay $25 for that plus a stall fee if you want to stay. OR you can trailer in for the day and pay non compete plus maybe (maybe not?) grounds fee of $40. That's a pretty good deal for the experience

flshgordon
Apr. 1, 2010, 11:25 PM
What she meant was take the horse as a non-competing horse. You don't enter any classes, but you have the horse at the showgrounds, you ride in the warmup with all the other horses, you just don't do any tests.

Depends on the show as to what kind of fees they do/do not charge to do this.

YES!:D

Gloria
Apr. 2, 2010, 12:43 AM
You don't ride in a class, you merely take the horse TO the show as a non-compete. You pay a small fee to be able to ride your horse around the show grounds, in the warmup arenas at any time, after hours in the ring when other people are practicing. If you have someone sit at the table like a judge, you get the same benefits as showing...the busy warmup is often the hardest thing to navigate at a show and you have free access to that.

For our big spring show here, the non-compete fee is $25 per show. Fri-Sat is a 2 day show so you pay $25 for that plus a stall fee if you want to stay. OR you can trailer in for the day and pay non compete plus maybe (maybe not?) grounds fee of $40. That's a pretty good deal for the experience

This is great for people who aren't ready to show, but want to somehow "taste" the experience of showing. This is also invaluable to acclimate horses to show ground environment. However, regardless how much pre-showing preparation you do, eventually you still have to take that leap of faith, and show. And unfortunately regardless how realistic a Pseudo show is, nothing can replace a real showing experience, especially for inexperienced humans.

For example, I can ride as many times at my instructor's barn to simulate how a group class might be, it will never be the same as riding at a group class at the show where adrenaline is pumping, riders are nervous, all horses are more lively, and you get audience watching.

Sandy M
Apr. 2, 2010, 10:47 AM
You don't ride in a class, you merely take the horse TO the show as a non-compete. You pay a small fee to be able to ride your horse around the show grounds, in the warmup arenas at any time, after hours in the ring when other people are practicing. If you have someone sit at the table like a judge, you get the same benefits as showing...the busy warmup is often the hardest thing to navigate at a show and you have free access to that.

For our big spring show here, the non-compete fee is $25 per show. Fri-Sat is a 2 day show so you pay $25 for that plus a stall fee if you want to stay. OR you can trailer in for the day and pay non compete plus maybe (maybe not?) grounds fee of $40. That's a pretty good deal for the experience


As I stated above:

1. Once he gets over the "where are we" after he unloads at a show, as green as he is, my horse will lead around the show grounds pretty quietly and stand tied to the trailer. Under saddle? Whole different thing. I trail ride a fair amount in the summer, so he's used to "going places," but a show is different, and he can get quite excited.

2. None of our shows offers a non-compete fee. You're either showing or you're not, and if you're not, you will either not be welcome with your horse on the show grounds (or may pay a grounds fee at some shows a bit further out of the immediate area), and will not be permitted to ride in the warmup or the arenas after hours. Show is over - you LEAVE.

It's nice that you can do that in your area, but around here, it's pay and show, or don't. If I can't ride in the warmup or go into the show ring, it doesn't give my horse the experience he needs.

carolprudm
Apr. 2, 2010, 11:30 AM
This is great for people who aren't ready to show, but want to somehow "taste" the experience of showing. This is also invaluable to acclimate horses to show ground environment. However, regardless how much pre-showing preparation you do, eventually you still have to take that leap of faith, and show. And unfortunately regardless how realistic a Pseudo show is, nothing can replace a real showing experience, especially for inexperienced humans.

For example, I can ride as many times at my instructor's barn to simulate how a group class might be, it will never be the same as riding at a group class at the show where adrenaline is pumping, riders are nervous, all horses are more lively, and you get audience watching.
Yup, plus if I am going through the effort and expense of a show "simulation" I may as well pay the few extra dollars and get the judge's opinion.
I'm going to concentrate on me and my horse, and I suggest other people do the same.
If our presence offends you, get over it. I won't notice your angst and it's only spoiling your attitude.

Ghazzu
Apr. 2, 2010, 12:10 PM
As far as taking an unentered horse to a dressage show and riding it around in the warmup area, I suspect that many of the same folks decrying the inclusion of Intro at a recognized show would be quick to complain to management about the overcrowded warmup area and demand that only horses entered for a class be allowed to use it.

Dressage Art
Apr. 2, 2010, 12:42 PM
As I stated above:

1. Once he gets over the "where are we" after he unloads at a show, as green as he is, my horse will lead around the show grounds pretty quietly and stand tied to the trailer. Under saddle? Whole different thing. I trail ride a fair amount in the summer, so he's used to "going places," but a show is different, and he can get quite excited.

2. None of our shows offers a non-compete fee. You're either showing or you're not, and if you're not, you will either not be welcome with your horse on the show grounds (or may pay a grounds fee at some shows a bit further out of the immediate area), and will not be permitted to ride in the warmup or the arenas after hours. Show is over - you LEAVE.

It's nice that you can do that in your area, but around here, it's pay and show, or don't. If I can't ride in the warmup or go into the show ring, it doesn't give my horse the experience he needs.

Yep. My mare who is a seasoned competitor with up to 11 shows per year for 6 years is always supper easy at the show grounds and at the warm up, yet in the show arena, alone she is uneasy/looky/tense for the first test. I even use the first test as a "warm up" to show her around with out worrying about our scores. But the 2nd test is all business.

One time I asked a local show to bring a horse along and they said no, we don't have enough space as it is even for competing horses. I asked to bring it HC and also was told no, only if they would have space after all of the regular riders... and we have a waiting lists for most of our shows around here. So yes, if you want to get your horse out in our area = you can go to a schooling show, and many do, even with their FEI horses or you have to pay full for the USDF shows.

However, we do have a "1 star" shows and I think it's only California who has that set up. Those are a GMO recognized/run shows with licensed judges = but scores do not count to USDF or USEF. Those are the great shows to venture out for young horses or for a fresh level. + no USDF/USEF fees, but still $40-$45 per class + $25 office fee. But there are not many of them around.

Looking at the month of April we have 5 recognized shows with in 50 miles radius, 1 of "one star" shows and 3 schooling shows. http://www.california-dressage.org/html/calendar.htm#apr08

Still, majority of Intro Levels we do see at schooling shows or at GMO "1 star" shows. Also interesting that to trailer to the dressage barn for schooling will cost you $25-$35 in trailer-in fees. Yet, to show in the schooling show it'll cost you about the same amount as well!

NOMIOMI1
Apr. 2, 2010, 12:54 PM
A friend of mine refers to the cross as "fire and ice" plus "sensitivity and stubbornness." LOL

Just for laughs, here is a pic of him at his 2nd show in April of '09 (His first was in Sept. 08) in (very scary) warmup prior to doing Intro 2. Note the crash vest! Unlike his first show, I actually took it off before doing the test.

http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/28846/2339614270103428920S600x600Q85.jpg (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2339614270103428920dsyyLr)

Lovely :0

Here is my purebred, sorry old picture when we were still doing sport horse I think :)

Or a really poor stretch lol



http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2789233480101143328PvJhzV


Lemme know if that works ;)

Sandy M
Apr. 2, 2010, 01:33 PM
Lovely :0

Here is my purebred, sorry old picture when we were still doing sport horse I think :)

Or a really poor stretch lol



http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2789233480101143328PvJhzV


Lemme know if that works ;)


Very pretty. What breeding? (I used to work for an attorney who raised race-bred Polish Arabians. Some of his mares were from Sheila Varians Bey El Bey line).

NOMIOMI1
Apr. 2, 2010, 01:35 PM
Very pretty. What breeding? (I used to work for an attorney who raised race-bred Polish Arabians. Some of his mares were from Sheila Varians Bey El Bey line).

I sent a pm so as not to hijack the thread :)

netg
Apr. 2, 2010, 02:45 PM
I'm torn in my opinion of intro for rated shows.

On the one hand, I think it encourages the incremental progression and getting things correct as you go that dressage is supposed to be about. With what I think is too much rushing out there, it's a nice contrast. I also think getting objective opinions is very helpful. I learn a lot from my trainer - but she is in love with my horse. She showed him as an eventer, and I'm pretty sure her opinion of him will always be higher than a judge's, so benchmarks of someone else's opinions will be very useful for us.

At the same time, the danger of showing is the push to get to shows instead of learning the details closely. We have backed my OTTB out of the 3rd level training he was doing to start from the beginning and get him really accepting contact. As an eventer he was getting away with not accepting contact and having a false frame, but as he's now a dressage horse, it would greatly hinder his ability to get where I want us to go. If I were showing intro with him, I would be more likely to want to rush him to carry himself steadily so I could go do it, when what I'm doing instead is letting him learn to accept contact, and not worrying about the fact he'll move his head a lot as he switches from reaching for contact to moving his head so there is no contact, to reaching for contact again. My letting him figure it out, and just keeping steady has him quickly improving in a way he might not if I were concerned about shows.

carolprudm
Apr. 2, 2010, 04:06 PM
I'm torn in my opinion of intro for rated shows.

On the one hand, I think it encourages the incremental progression and getting things correct as you go that dressage is supposed to be about. With what I think is too much rushing out there, it's a nice contrast. I also think getting objective opinions is very helpful. I learn a lot from my trainer - but she is in love with my horse. She showed him as an eventer, and I'm pretty sure her opinion of him will always be higher than a judge's, so benchmarks of someone else's opinions will be very useful for us.

At the same time, the danger of showing is the push to get to shows instead of learning the details closely. We have backed my OTTB out of the 3rd level training he was doing to start from the beginning and get him really accepting contact. As an eventer he was getting away with not accepting contact and having a false frame, but as he's now a dressage horse, it would greatly hinder his ability to get where I want us to go. If I were showing intro with him, I would be more likely to want to rush him to carry himself steadily so I could go do it, when what I'm doing instead is letting him learn to accept contact, and not worrying about the fact he'll move his head a lot as he switches from reaching for contact to moving his head so there is no contact, to reaching for contact again. My letting him figure it out, and just keeping steady has him quickly improving in a way he might not if I were concerned about shows.

But whose responsibility is that, the show mmanagement or the rider?

ESG
Apr. 2, 2010, 07:31 PM
Hmmm...can't say I really agree with this--that the first step of dressage is Intro.

It is not a recognized qualifying level, they don't have it at regional competitions. I do not consider that at all to be the first step of dressage. I consider it the first step of learning how to ride, but not the first step of dressage and not a first step to showing.

I think I get to chime in with personal experience because I raised and "trained" (I use that term loosely :winkgrin: ) my now 7yo mare myself, I have done all the showing and I have never before had a dressage horse, or raised a baby.

We simply did not show until we were ready to canter in that environment. I don't think we skipped any steps and I don't think we made fools of ourselves the first time out. We simply didn't go until we were ready. Yes we had green horse moments, yes our canter was strung out and downhill at times, but that's all part of the game.

Why does that offend so many people? Recognized shows are often plenty long enough before adding intro classes and there are always, MANY entries in the training level classes and a lot of those people are at their first shows, green horses, etc. Why can't it start there?


And for the rest, I don't like the posting at First Level either. Don't see how it will help anyone to drag out the heartache until 2nd level if they haven't yet learned to sit.

Beautifully put, flsh. Couldn't agree more. :yes:

Sandy M
Apr. 2, 2010, 10:34 PM
" Ready" to show is two different things: Able to do the work and/or ready for the environment. You can't reproduce the environment at home or at a trainer's barn during a lesson. Only at a show. And please don't trot the old "if the horse is on the aids, he won't...." Green horses can be as much on the aids as a young horse may be, but if something upsets them at a 'strange' place, they ARE going to react. THe only way to get past that is mileage.

Before his injury (he's almost all the way back, but the restrictions on his exercise until recently made him very difficult), my younsger was steady in the bridle, doing some 1st level work, and not strung out at the canter. He was perfectly capable of doing the TL tests at home, but he STILL needed to do Intro at least a couple of times (3 or 4 total between fall of '08 and mid-summer '09), just to get into the show atmosphere, get the experience (and not get me flung through the air). I may have evented through PRelim/INtermediate, but I don't bounce as well as I used to.

SHowing Intro, I had no desire to pay recognized show fees, but as Dressage Art and I have pointed out, in our area, there are many more accessible and available recognized shows to go to than schooling shows. As mentioned, one place offers a 1-day horse trial, but the fee to enter and do ONLY the dressage would have been almost as much as TWO classes at a recognized show. Instead, I went to recognized shows, did INtro a few times, then moved up to training. THere are horses that may be doing the work just fine at home, but putting them in a show atmosphere is another aspect of training, and if schooling shows aren't available, then it means no shows at all.

You can put forth all sort of arguments about Intro having no place at a recognized show, that peolple should be more prepared, their horses better trained, ad infinitum, but the subtext basically is: We're better than you are, YOU Intro people are dumbing down the "great art of dressage," etc. Just ride the level you're comfortable with, and let others do Intro, whether the show is schooling or recognized. It puts money in the organizers pockets, encourages people to get into dressage, and gives a little more "value" to their score, if it's a decent one, and it HARM no one if a few people are showing Intro at a recognized show.

dressage_queens
Apr. 2, 2010, 11:15 PM
" Ready" to show is two different things: Able to do the work and/or ready for the environment. You can't reproduce the environment at home or at a trainer's barn during a lesson. Only at a show. And please don't trot the old "if the horse is on the aids, he won't...." Green horses can be as much on the aids as a young horse may be, but if something upsets them at a 'strange' place, they ARE going to react. THe only way to get past that is mileage.

Before his injury (he's almost all the way back, but the restrictions on his exercise until recently made him very difficult), my younsger was steady in the bridle, doing some 1st level work, and not strung out at the canter. He was perfectly capable of doing the TL tests at home, but he STILL needed to do Intro at least a couple of times (3 or 4 total between fall of '08 and mid-summer '09), just to get into the show atmosphere, get the experience (and not get me flung through the air). I may have evented through PRelim/INtermediate, but I don't bounce as well as I used to.

SHowing Intro, I had no desire to pay recognized show fees, but as Dressage Art and I have pointed out, in our area, there are many more accessible and available recognized shows to go to than schooling shows. As mentioned, one place offers a 1-day horse trial, but the fee to enter and do ONLY the dressage would have been almost as much as TWO classes at a recognized show. Instead, I went to recognized shows, did INtro a few times, then moved up to training. THere are horses that may be doing the work just fine at home, but putting them in a show atmosphere is another aspect of training, and if schooling shows aren't available, then it means no shows at all.

You can put forth all sort of arguments about Intro having no place at a recognized show, that peolple should be more prepared, their horses better trained, ad infinitum, but the subtext basically is: We're better than you are, YOU Intro people are dumbing down the "great art of dressage," etc. Just ride the level you're comfortable with, and let others do Intro, whether the show is schooling or recognized. It puts money in the organizers pockets, encourages people to get into dressage, and gives a little more "value" to their score, if it's a decent one, and it HARM no one if a few people are showing Intro at a recognized show.

:cool::cool::cool:

ESG
Apr. 3, 2010, 12:06 AM
You know, if the USEF/USDF were really interested in bringing new blood into the show ring, they'd lower the frickin' show fees so that a wider percentage of the horse-owning population could actually afford to go to more than one horse show a decade. The argument that offering adult walk/trot divisions is bringing in more money/participants to the sport is fatuous.

Gloria
Apr. 3, 2010, 12:40 AM
You know, if the USEF/USDF were really interested in bringing new blood into the show ring, they'd lower the frickin' show fees so that a wider percentage of the horse-owning population could actually afford to go to more than one horse show a decade. The argument that offering adult walk/trot divisions is bringing in more money/participants to the sport is fatuous.

Who care whether USEF/USDF is really interested in bringing new blood? OK. "I" don't care whether they are interested. "I" am interested that there are more new blood into the show ring though, and "I" do care that new comers are made welcomed, as others have welcomed me in my introduction to dressage.

Besides, running a show is very expensive. Venue is very expensive. Bringing equipment to groom and setup arena is expensive. Flowers, decoration, judges, etc, are not cheap. Organizers have to make some money each year just so they have cash in hand to make deposit for next year. There are more hidden cost in running a show than most outsiders understand.

ESG
Apr. 3, 2010, 01:27 AM
Sorry, but if you think that increased membership and show attendance aren't mandatory for the growth of our sport, you're sadly mistaken. There's not much spectator appeal for our sport, especially at the lower levels, so no income from the fans. So how, exactly, do you think the sport will survive without a continual influx of new participants? And do the USEF or USDF make any sort of real effort to encourage participation? No. They charge an arm and a leg for a useless membership and ridiculous show fees for anyone having the temerity to want to exhibit their horse's training and their competence. Offering adult walk/trot classes isn't going to make the sport more appealing to a wider range of riders; making the shows more affordable will appeal to a wider range of riders.

Oh, and having been associated with some pretty large, high profile shows, I know just how much the venues cost, just how much the judges make, just how much the competitors get charged, and just how much the sponsoring entity profits. That argument is a complete non starter.

Sandy M
Apr. 3, 2010, 01:46 AM
"Adult walk/trot" Aaaah - Boy, this really does sound like the "when I was a kid I hiked 5 miles through the snow to get to school...." "I didn't show my horse until he was able to do flying changes, why do you people have to do W/T?" Good for you. So what? Intro is available at some recognized shows, and if people choose to enter, so be it.

LOL. The last Intro test I did (at a recognized show! the horror!), the only other entrant was a 10 year old kid on a broke to death horse. I figured it was an even match - my young horse, though schooling nicely at home, was a ticking timebomb on the show grounds. He was exploding into caprioles and ballatodes on the lunge despite my efforts to keep him calm, and I wore my eventer's vest throughout warmup and almost left it on during the test. Fortunately, he settled down a bit by then, and we got through it without displaying any NFR talents. Was I supposed to be ashamed? Stay home so he didn't' get the experience? Go to non-existent schooling shows? At home he was going for 2 hour trail rides, riding 90% of the time on a loose rein. But at a show? Hardly...but he wasn't going to get over it by continuing to do trail rides and schooling at home. I don't think he's the only young horse like that.

Most people who are only doing W/T and want to get show experience would probably PREFER to do a schooling show, but it isn't always possible. Show availability, timing, etc. can make it difficult. So a 3*** show has W/T. Who is hurt by it? Sounds like only the non-W/T people's egos. Did you get squeezed out of a show because there were four people in Intro 1 and they couldn't accept YOUR entry at 2nd level or above? LOL

Intro is good for green horses, kiddie riders, timid and/or beginner adults....I can't count the number of threads I've seen on this forum and others about adults who've had a bad experience and are wary of cantering, period, let alone at a show. But...oh my, we musn't sully our recognized shows with those lowly W/t people who want to have the show experience, but aren't good enough or physically/emotionally ready to show at a higher level. I'm still waiting to hear who is HURT by allowing W/T. The people who will be in our National/International Teams, and elite YR riders... they'll get there regardless of proposed Rider Qualifications or whether or not shows offer Intro, so their ox isn't being gored. What's the problem, other than an "I'm better than that (and everyone else should be)" attitude?

JUst because some people may find W/T demeaning doesn't mean everyone else does. Perhaps they should just content themselves that, obviously, anyone who would choose to do W/T isn't as skilled/competent/confident as they are and probably "won't amount to much" in the dressage world. Just ignore them and maybe they'll go away. Way to make folks feel welcome!

ESG
Apr. 3, 2010, 10:38 AM
I never said anything about walk/trot being "demeaning"; I said that walk/trot classes belong at schooling shows, even for juniors. And sorry, but I've never been to a dressage show where anyone took the time to find out what level someone else was riding, before making them "feel welcome". In fact, I've never been to a dressage show where any competitor was "made to feel welcome". You're being silly and defensive where there's no reason to be.

And sorry, but including W/T classes in recognized shows is detrimental to the sport. Why learn to sit a trot, or get a balanced canter out of your horse, when you can schlep around the show ring before your skills (to say nothing of your horse's skills) are up to standard? Where is the incentive to have a properly trained horse before one goes in the arena to compete? Why lower the bar, when we should be raising it? Ridiculous. :no:

Adult walk/trot classes do not belong in any USEF recognized show. This is my opinion. And they don't exist in any other USEF discipline. This is a fact. Blather on all you like, but that is the long and the short of it.

Ghazzu
Apr. 3, 2010, 11:15 AM
Umm, because ridng intro gets boring once you've mastered the skills to move on?

Get a grip. You're not going to see huge influxes of people who stay at intro level for years.

MaximumChrome
Apr. 3, 2010, 11:38 AM
If we don't have new people coming in, the sport will die off. And yes, "Lowly Intro" people do support this sport - they pay show fees, they volunteer, they buy from the vendors (who help pay for the show by paying for space to vend), they pay for lessons, eventually, they may decide to upgrade their horse, their tack, they get the confidence to try Training level, and some of 'em even get into those "sacred levels" (whatever they are, where some of you claim dressage begins).

USEF and USDF have made some steps to help draw in new people. They now allow show management to offer classes through 1st level where competitors don't have to be USEF/USDF members. Nice way to let Hunter riders and those in other disciplines "give it a try", with Opportunity classes.

USEF/USDF don't set show fees - show management does, based on the costs of renting facility, stabling costs, judge, TD, EMT costs, software costs, volunteer costs (feeding, gifts, etc), prizes and ribbons, show premiums and promotion, equipement, ring maintenance, etc. Only a small portion of the $ collected go to the "rating bodies".

carolprudm
Apr. 3, 2010, 12:58 PM
I never said anything about walk/trot being "demeaning"; I said that walk/trot classes belong at schooling shows, even for juniors. .

What part of "Not all areas have readily available schooling shows" do you not understand?

NOMIOMI1
Apr. 3, 2010, 01:35 PM
Awwww Dont you just love the American mentality?

'Why stay at the lower levels? You MUST rush and learn to sit the trot... Thats Dressage you know? Sitting the trot is. If you can sit the trot and get around a test THEN your doing dressage :lol::lol:


WE NEED intro AND training level AND now first level, AND maybe even some MORE lower levels. So that people can ride out of a paper bag before they start sitting.

The more shows I got to, videos I watch, and lessons I see, the more I see people sitting on horses who are either A. Not ready to be sat on, or B. Still learning to sit and banging around up there every show is gonna teach em.

My best friend grew up in Holland and she was able to do 3rd level movements and jump 3 foot LONG before she sat the trot as a junior rider. She said that her horses didnt have ANYONE sit on its back at the trot until it was solidly doing elementary collection.

ESG
Apr. 3, 2010, 02:12 PM
What part of "Not all areas have readily available schooling shows" do you not understand?

I understand it perfectly. Doesn't change my opinion that adult walk/trot tests don't belong at recognized competitions. :cool:

ESG
Apr. 3, 2010, 02:17 PM
One doesn't learn to ride, showing in dressage. One must learn to ride before showing in dressage. Those aren't my words; they're the words of an "S" judge for whom I've scribed several times, who's brought several horses to GP and showed very successfully.

dressurpferd01
Apr. 3, 2010, 06:47 PM
One doesn't learn to ride, showing in dressage. One must learn to ride before showing in dressage. Those aren't my words; they're the words of an "S" judge for whom I've scribed several times, who's brought several horses to GP and showed very successfully.

Quoted for truth! ESG, you're spot on. Too many people want to rush to show before they or their horses are really ready, this just encourages that behavior.

Sandy M
Apr. 3, 2010, 06:54 PM
One doesn't learn to ride, showing in dressage. One must learn to ride before showing in dressage. Those aren't my words; they're the words of an "S" judge for whom I've scribed several times, who's brought several horses to GP and showed very successfully.


You know, while I'm hardly Olympic material, I think I do "know how to ride." I evented through Prelim, did jumpers to 4'6", did Combined Tests at Intermediate, showed dressage through 2nd level and was schooling 3rd when my old fellow (a convert from H/J) got a little too arthritic to continue, and I've ridden and done clinics on higher level horses, some schoolmasters, some still competitive and in training.

But now I have a greenie, and he's hot and spooky. If the recognized shows in our area didn't have INtro when I started showing him in late 2008, I would have had few opportunities to get him out there for experience. As it was, I did INtro about 4 times, three times at recognized shows before "S" judges, then moved on to training level. Except for very small kids, I think that's what most people showing Intro do. Still see no reason why it should NOT be offered at recognized shows.

You didn't say it was deameaning? - then what's the implication of the words that one must "learn to ride BEFORE showing dressage?" Seems to imply that those showing at Intro don't know how to ride. Sounds pretty demeaning to me.

Gloria
Apr. 6, 2010, 10:31 AM
Sorry, but if you think that increased membership and show attendance aren't mandatory for the growth of our sport, you're sadly mistaken. There's not much spectator appeal for our sport, especially at the lower levels, so no income from the fans. So how, exactly, do you think the sport will survive without a continual influx of new participants? And do the USEF or USDF make any sort of real effort to encourage participation? No. They charge an arm and a leg for a useless membership and ridiculous show fees for anyone having the temerity to want to exhibit their horse's training and their competence. Offering adult walk/trot classes isn't going to make the sport more appealing to a wider range of riders; making the shows more affordable will appeal to a wider range of riders.

Oh, and having been associated with some pretty large, high profile shows, I know just how much the venues cost, just how much the judges make, just how much the competitors get charged, and just how much the sponsoring entity profits. That argument is a complete non starter.

My point is, you CANNOT control what USEF/USDF do. What you CAN control is what You do. I don't argue that all those fees are high and borderline ridiculous but unless you can influence them, you cannot do anything about it. What you can do is to make sure that nobody looks down on lower level riders, especially on those who are just into dressage.

If you think shows are expensive now, just wait till YOU have to pick up all the expenses that are currently picked up by intro level riders. And if you do know how much it takes to run a show, why are you arguing here? Anyone with any tiny bit of finance sense knows that the more people takes up a fixed cost, the less everybody has to pay.

suzier444
Apr. 6, 2010, 12:56 PM
And sorry, but including W/T classes in recognized shows is detrimental to the sport. Why learn to sit a trot, or get a balanced canter out of your horse, when you can schlep around the show ring before your skills (to say nothing of your horse's skills) are up to standard? Where is the incentive to have a properly trained horse before one goes in the arena to compete? Why lower the bar, when we should be raising it?

You could apply this to any level depending on how you define a "properly trained horse." Some people might see a "properly trained horse" as a horse that's second level or above, or higher. It's not like at intro they are untrained and suddenly at training level they are trained. And it's not like you've finished learning how to ride and are thusly ready to show if you can go do a training or first level test. It's a progressive spectrum and terms like "properly trained" or "prepared" are relative ONLY to the definitions of the level in question. Why draw the line at intro and not at training, first, second or so on? Based on my show observations, most training or first level horses and riders (myself included) are not exactly shining paragons of equitation perfection either. We are sloppy, bumpy, wiggly -- but well-intentioned -- messes doing our best to learn and to have fun.

Speaking of fun, I think just giving people the chance to have fun is reason enough to "lower the bar," even aside from those who do intro for nervous horse reasons or whatever else. Those who want to take it to another level of seriousness can do so and thank god for that, but people just having fun with it will not corrupt or ruin the integrity of it for the higher levels. More likely, those having fun with it will be eagerly sitting on the sidelines cheering for and being inspired by (and possibly paying for) those who do take it to another level.

Many sports where normal people participate are like this. There actually are marathoners out there grumbling about the devaluation of marathons because everybody and their grandmother is walking them now. You kind of have to make peace with the fact that there is a subset of people for whom any activity is a fun hobby and not this intense goal. Fun is OK and reason enough in and of itself!!


Quoted for truth! ESG, you're spot on. Too many people want to rush to show before they or their horses are really ready, this just encourages that behavior.

I don't see the logic here. If subset A of people are so eager to show, won't removing intro simply encourage those people to enter training level instead?

mp
Apr. 6, 2010, 01:21 PM
Many sports where normal people participate are like this.

So are you implying that all the people who participate in equine sports are ABnormal? Or do you find the ABnormals only in dressage? :lol:


One doesn't learn to ride, showing in dressage. One must learn to ride before showing in dressage. Those aren't my words; they're the words of an "S" judge for whom I've scribed several times, who's brought several horses to GP and showed very successfully

And one should strive to hold one's pinky out while one intones The Wisdom of the "S" Judge For Whom ESG Has Scribed Several Times.

Tattoo it on your forehead if you want, but it's just another opinion. And a remarkably short-sighted one coming from someone who benefits from all the mediocre middle-aged reriders who populate dressage shows.

suzier444
Apr. 6, 2010, 01:41 PM
So are you implying that all the people who participate in equine sports are ABnormal? Or do you find the ABnormals only in dressage? :lol:


lol. :-P I think what I mean is that with running and with riding, people pay to participate in the same events as professionals, as opposed to, like, major league baseball (I do want to recognize that some amateurs in both sports are just as serious as professionals, though).

But I do actually think riding and distance-running people are both a wee bit abnormal. Even those who do it for a hobby put a ton more dedication into it than many hobbies require, even to compete at basic intro levels. Horse people and distance-running people share a similar passionate hardcoreness.

flshgordon
Apr. 6, 2010, 02:25 PM
Awwww Dont you just love the American mentality?

'Why stay at the lower levels? You MUST rush and learn to sit the trot... Thats Dressage you know? Sitting the trot is. If you can sit the trot and get around a test THEN your doing dressage :lol::lol:


WE NEED intro AND training level AND now first level, AND maybe even some MORE lower levels. So that people can ride out of a paper bag before they start sitting.

Actually I'm pretty sure you have the "American mentality" pegged wrong. It goes more like this: "I want to move up and it's too hard--pleeease make it easier for me to show at a higher level"

Even though there hasn't been one person here brave enough to admit it, you KNOW there are hordes of TL riders rejoicing saying they can move up now that First level is easier with no sitting trot. This is just a fact...it is now easier and it will bring a lot more people into that level because it's barely different than TL now.

Who is saying move to upper levels and sit before they are ready? Most people I see are saying stay at TL until you can sit?

And how about people learn to ride their way out of a paper bag before they show?

NOMIOMI1
Apr. 6, 2010, 02:51 PM
Actually I'm pretty sure you have the "American mentality" pegged wrong. It goes more like this: "I want to move up and it's too hard--pleeease make it easier for me to show at a higher level"

Even though there hasn't been one person here brave enough to admit it, you KNOW there are hordes of TL riders rejoicing saying they can move up now that First level is easier with no sitting trot. This is just a fact...it is now easier and it will bring a lot more people into that level because it's barely different than TL now.

Who is saying move to upper levels and sit before they are ready? Most people I see are saying stay at TL until you can sit?

And how about people learn to ride their way out of a paper bag before they show?

Really?

I think more is the case of Judges who now have the option of instead sending a rider back a lever can say "You should still be sitting and working on your seat, even though your horse CAN do a leg yeild and simple change of lead"

My three year old horses can do a simple lead change and leg yeild on longish connection. I still dont feel good about sitting on their backs before some collection.

AND the hordes are mostly people saying "I can sit" when its not the case.

NOMIOMI1
Apr. 6, 2010, 02:59 PM
MANY people cant even think about starting second or collection with their horse because they sat too early and/or they have no connection.

When you focus on sitting like a rock to get to first, this stops the back from swinging, and weighs down the hind (in the wrong way).

Horses on the forhand from early sitting have more problems doing collection then horses taught some lateral and then half halts from a posting position.

MANY people have breed horses in America, and most of what I see are people allowing these horses to shuffle around and sitting on their backs. The thought is that "those" horses cant keep up with Warmbloods. When really the warmbloods are just a little better about not being bogged down by amature attempts at sitting/connection. If they are a great mover to begin with then they move down to semi-good mover under a heavy ill put seat, unlike some breed horses that go from ok to very poor.


The focus is all wrong here. Focus on getting the horses training further along before the rider begins to put themselves in the way.